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Jun 05 2013

At least we know he watched the video

Ken Ham has replied to the conversation we had last night. We talked about the importance of a secular education, deplored creationism, and challenged Ken Ham to a debate in Houston when he’s there to speak at a homeschooling conference.

But what does he respond to? He cries, “Lilandra called me an ape!”

Yes, she did, because humans are apes. It’s not an insult, it’s a statement about what larger group your species is nested within.

Alternatively, maybe Ham objected because he feels a greater kinship to another clade, and would rather be grouped with them: he’s clearly part chicken. He was challenged to a debate; he earlier refused because it was beneath him to debate a non-Ph.D. (his degree is only honorary, but he apparently puts much stock in it), but now that there will be a person with a doctorate on the side of evolution, that excuse has evaporated. And now he’s nattering on about a minor point rather than addressing the bigger issues? For shame.


Aron Ra also comments.

69 comments

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  1. 1
    auraboy

    Whatever he wants to do with pigs or chickens – he’s still an ape

  2. 2
    changerofbits

    There has to be some liberal college out there that can bestow an honorary doctorate on Aron Ra.

  3. 3
    changerofbits

    Drat, we’re going to have to find four:

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/outreach/speakers/ken-ham/bio/

    Of course, I haven’t seen the long form version of Ken’s honorary doctorates…

  4. 4
    stanton

    Please do not insult or slander chickens or other equally noble members of the pheasant family by implying that the human-shaped Waste of Space for Jesus named Ken Ham is related to them or other noble barnyard fowl.

  5. 5
    Azuma Hazuki

    Who the hell is Deltoid? I keep seeing this “skeptic apocalypse” person in other threads and he sounds like M@bus off his meds…

  6. 6
    John Morales

    [meta]

    Azuma, it probably almost certainly is Mabus.

  7. 7
    PZ Myers

    It’s Dennis Markuze. He’s spamming us every day again. And I’m deleting his crap every day, again.

  8. 8
    Azuma Hazuki

    I’d have been impressed if someone actually had won Randi’s million, but having clicked on the link all I saw was foamy, frothy ranting. And apparently we’re supposed to eat our own shit. There’s precedent I suppose (Ezekiel 4:12 anyone?) but I’d rather not…

  9. 9
    Glen Davidson

    Is he lying for Jesus, or just stupid for Jesus?

    Glen Davidson

  10. 10
    RFW

    And just what Cracker Jack box did Ham pull his Ph.D. out of? Some tin pot bible college that’s never, ever awarded a genuine Ph.D. based on real work, real research, real effort?

  11. 11
    carlie

    Hasn’t DM been repeatedly violating a court order for months now? And he hasn’t been re-hospitalized?

  12. 12
    stanton

    Is he lying for Jesus, or just stupid for Jesus?

    Yes.

  13. 13
    John Morales

    Stanton to Glen:

    Is he lying for Jesus, or just stupid for Jesus?

    Yes.

    It may seem cynical, but I reckon he’s lying for fame and money.

    (Hey, it works for him!)

  14. 14
    Sili

    Ham objected because he feels a greater kinship to another clade, and would rather be grouped with them: he’s clearly part chicken.

    That’s *disgusting*!!

    A chicken raping piglets?!

    Bacon and eggs sleeping together?!

    This goes against all Natural Order™!

  15. 15
    Menyambal

    The piglet-porker acts like it was a personal insult, kinda like calling him a swine-seducer. I find it amazing that he ran that clip after what he said—everybody in it was calling themselves apes, too. But all that matters is that Ken thinks he was badmouthed …. by a bunch of people that he considers to be deserving of eternal fire.

    The woman who did most of the speaking needs two hugs now. She was upset about being lied to, now she’s been lied about.

    Damn Ken Ham and the pig he rode in.

  16. 16
    matthewhodson

    Ken Ham a chicken?
    Well he is a bit of a dinosaur.

  17. 17
    charlesmiller

    Then there is this -
    “we have no proof of apes” “and no one ever caught an ape”

  18. 18
    craigrheinheimer

    Ham’s video has both comments and ratings disabled.

    A creationists afraid of open discourse? No surprise there.

  19. 19
    robster

    Surely even the ol’ Kenster,being a ham, must be a pig of some sort. It’s easy science!

  20. 20
    Shplane, Spess Alium

    @changerofbits #3

    I’d never actually looked at his picture before, but after seeing it there I am almost certain that Ken Ham is a werewolf.

  21. 21
    newfie

    There has to be some liberal college out there that can bestow an honorary doctorate on Aron Ra.

    Aron could just buy a doctorate from the same diploma mill in Sri Lanka that “Dr.” Nick Begich of HAARP mind control/weather control fame did. He’s recently befriended a good friend of mine, and I’ve had to debunk some batshiat crazy stuff in the last few days. It seems that the US is killing its own citizens, by creating tornados… in tornado alley.. during tornado season. http://goo.gl/t6JwH Not very efficient results for the most powerful country on the planet IMO. The site they pulled that map from doesn’t seem to mention where they get their data..(out of their arses, no doubt) but the do give give chemtrail forecasts. I bet next up, HAARP will make it rain in the rain forest, during rainy season.

  22. 22
    grumpyoldfart

    At least we know he watched the video

    I’m guessing he assigned an office worker to watch the video and told them to look for anything to which he might be able to respond.

    I’m also guessing that nobody in the office watched past the point where the word “ape” was used.

  23. 23
    toro

    Perhaps Ham fears he might be liable to encounter those pervy bibliophiles in such a setting.

  24. 24
    Jafafa Hots

    As a human, I’m a pretty huge disappointment to myself.
    But as an ape, I guess I’ve done moderately OK.

  25. 25
    Ragutis

    Chickens are pheasants. I did not know that.

    Ken Ham is an ape. I didn’t know that either. I always thought of him as an ass.

  26. 26
    Kagato

    Thanks for leading me down the rabbit hole of “Real Actors Read…” videos, charlesmiller.

    It took me quite a while to climb out again.

  27. 27
    lockout

    I do not believe that apes are humans. I observe that apes have more hair and have feet that are more flexible, but less stable on level ground, than humans. Also, apes are not good at Geometry or Mathematics.

  28. 28
    Ragutis

    Lockout, apes aren’t humans, but humans ARE apes. What you’re saying is akin to the statement “cars aren’t Ferraris”

  29. 29
    lockout

    All men are mortal and Socrates was a man. But Socrates is immortal. Therefore, your Logic is copulated. Apes can’t even count.

  30. 30
    Ragutis

    lockout:

    Put

    The

    Crack

    Pipe

    DOWN

  31. 31
    lockout

    I

    Am

    Not

    Smoking

    A

    Crack

    Pipe

    And

    Apes

    Can’t

    Count

    1

    2

    3.

  32. 32
    Ragutis

    Apes

    Can’t

    Count

    1

    2

    3.

    I dunno, you seem off to an ok start there. What comes after 3?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae

  33. 33
    chigau (違う)

    I thought Lilandra was blond.
    (No idea why.)
    (I’m blond.)
    (was blond)

  34. 34
    Amphiox

    Apes can’t even count.

    Actually, they can. And on some counting tests, chimpanzees actually outperformed humans.

  35. 35
    zmidponk

    lockout:

    Apes can’t even count.

    Sure about that?

  36. 36
    Amphiox

    Notice how quickly the chimp in the video in #35 is doing the task. Can you do it that quickly?

    (This is one of the counting tasks where chimpanzees ROUTINELY beat humans handily at)

  37. 37
    Jafafa Hots

    In have this argument with my conservative dad all the time.

    Well, he actually argues that doves aren’t pigeons and I say they are, but same difference.

  38. 38
    bad Jim

    Obligatory quote from A Fish Called Wanda:

    Otto: Apes don't read philosophy.
    Wanda: Yes they do, Otto. They just don't understand it.

    (Sadly, the same is true of philosophers.)

  39. 39
    lochaber

    so, maybe I’m projecting or something, but something about that chimp’s posture/movements gave me the impression that it’s doing the counting thing cause it’s bored out of it’s mind (sorta like how I feel ending up playing flash games sometimes).

    I seriously hope it’s getting some really good treats or something, cause that was pretty impressive.

  40. 40
    microraptor

    I’m sure it is, Iochaber.

    You really can’t force a chimp to do something it doesn’t want to do. Really, you can’t force any animal into performing intelligence tests if it’s not in the mood, but with chimps you really can’t because they’re not an animal you want to piss off.

  41. 41
    Nick Gotts

    bad Jim@38,

    Taxonomically, all known philosophers are apes!

  42. 42
    Nick Gotts

    Whoops, I see PZ made essentially the same point in the OP.

  43. 43
    PatrickG

    Look, I know the “apes can’t count” thing was truly funny, and deserved all the mocking it got. But come on, nobody’s going to laugh at this other part?

    Therefore, your Logic is copulated.

    Either the creobot is averse to swearing* or it’s failed to use a thesaurus correctly.

    *Also, fuck, shit, ass.

  44. 44
    lochaber

    PatrickG>

    admitted, I thought that was some pretty good wording. I’m just more impressed by the speed of a very bored-looking chimp…

    and back to the chimp, not only was the chimp counting (random appearing) arrangements of dots, but it then had to select the right number, which also seemed to be randomly arranged. I couldn’t compete with that with a ~30% lead time, AND a fixed number pad.

    We certainly have better tools, but I’m far from certain that we are actually any smarter…

  45. 45
    changerofbits

    I can’t believe the domain answersingenetics.org isn’t taken yet. If I had more time, I’d have some fun with it.

  46. 46
    marko

    @26,
    I agree.

    The 2nd law of thermodynamics. Wonderful.

  47. 47
    Alex

    This indignation about being called an ape is such a silly shtick. But hey, maybe that really is where his real problem with evolution originates.

    He has too much of an ego to handle atheist humility. All he can manage is christian humility.


    Also, you know, if you tell people that they are animals, they will act like animals, right? List the logical fallacies.

  48. 48
    Hank_Says

    I’d like to see a video where a chimp becomes enraged after being told Ken Ham’s his cousin.

  49. 49
    Alex

    I’d like to see a video where a chimp becomes enraged after being told Ken Ham’s his cousin.

    Sounds like the instant Youtube sensation, and all we need is some stolen ape footage and a programme for subtitles!

  50. 50
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    I could understand if a gorilla complained about this….

  51. 51
    rogerfirth

    Of course, I haven’t seen the long form version of Ken’s honorary doctorates…

    I’ve got a roll of them hanging on the wall of my bathroom.

  52. 52
    Alex

    I’ve got a roll of them hanging on the wall of my bathroom.

    You can pick up your internet after you’ve transferred the 30$ to my account for a new keyboard.

  53. 53
    Jafafa Hots

    Humans can’t possibly be apes and the proof is obvious – apes always look ridiculous when you dress them in a suit and send them out to act important.

  54. 54
    randay

    The Real Actors seem to be going through a casting for Ken Ham’s next film.

  55. 55
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Tyrant:

    That’s entirely the thing.

    Christians (and other religious persons) like to believe they’re better than others. They’re “chosen by God” to go to Heaven. They made the choice to do so. They’re picked out of this world. They’re different from everyone else. If you don’t believe like they do, you’re bad, and you’re going to Hell.

    Letting Christians know that they’re related to everything that’s ever lived in some way is infuriating. They’re not specially created in the image of God. They’re just some primate.

    It goes hand-in-hand with their persecution complex.

  56. 56
    nomadiq

    I’m not supporting the Hamster _at_ _all_, but common, calling him an ape _is_ an insult. When the word “ape” is used in this context it is not usually referring to humans as well. It is derogatory and it is very disingenuous to say otherwise. Did Lilandra just happen to refer to anyone else in the group as an ape?

    I assume the ape insult was given in reference to Ken Ham’s intelligence. Since this insult is not based on prejudice but instead based around observations made during the discussion I don’t see a major problem with the label. Just embrace the insult.

    Insults are fine, but not when based on prejudice.

  57. 57
    stevebowen

    It’s hard (though not impossible) to believe that Ken Ham is really as stupid as he appears. I have suspected for a while that he is neither a creationist nor a Christian but a well rehearsed huckster. This maybe why he moved from Oz to Kentucky where the rubes are ..well..more rubish.

  58. 58
    David Marjanović

    his degree is only honorary, but he apparently puts much stock in it

    Let me take this out of context: sometimes, honorary degrees are actually deserved. John “Jack” Horner’s doctorate is honorary – he got it after doing lots of hadrosaur research that he just happened not to call a dissertation and happened not to have done under official supervision.

    Bacon and eggs sleeping together?!

    Thread won?!

    Notice how quickly the chimp in the video in #35 is doing the task. Can you do it that quickly?

    I can’t!

    Did Lilandra just happen to refer to anyone else in the group as an ape?

    Did you watch the fucking video?

  59. 59
    Alex

    scottrobson

    I assume the ape insult was given in reference to Ken Ham’s intelligence.

    No, no, no! Way to miss the point, scott.

    It’s a standard “complaint” by creationists that evolution would imply that by relation, we are great apes (if chimps and orangutans are great apes, we are as well, just as Birds are Dinosaurs because both T-Rex and Apatosaur are Dinosaurs)

    That somehow leads the creationist to the conclusion that evolutionists are implicitely insulting them by calling them apes, simply by believing in evolution.

    No, it doesn’t make sense.

  60. 60
    Azuma Hazuki

    Yes, technically we’re apes. And technically dogs are wolves. The difference in both cases is culture; we humans store much more information in the form of memes and culture than in our DNA and instinct. Hammy boy is an entire galaxy away from comprehending any of this of course.

  61. 61
    Harry Tuttle

    What!? You are an ape!

  62. 62
    bortedwards

    Great. I just went to Ham’s blog to see what he actually ‘thinks.’ PZed owes me a new, spew free, iPad.
    But not until Ive clawed myself out of the hillariously smug contradiction vortex Ham seems to have set up around himself in his youtube video description:

    “if they” (children) “are just animals and the bible’s account of creation is not true, then there is no basis for moral absolutes – everyone could do what is right in his own eyes (which is happening more and more today).”

    Well, um, if it quacks like an ape and walks like an ape more and more today…

  63. 63
    bortedwards

    Ugh, what a nutcase. His stupidity isn’t even low-hanging fruit, it’s a slimy mess of decaying grub-food. An infestation that really needs to be starved of oxygen. Should we even be validating him?

  64. 64
    Rey Fox

    KAW KA-KAW! KAW KA-KAW!

    CHEE CHAW! CHEE CHAW!

  65. 65
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Azuma

    And technically dogs are wolves.

    Not even technically; they are a subspecies of wolf; Canis lupus familiaris. They can still mate with wolves.

  66. 66
    Loqi

    @bortedwards
    If only that worked. Ignoring a problem is often a good way to ensure the problem gets worse. The number of people who believe this tripe is astonishing. They’re eating up government funds in order to miseducate children. They’re doing their best to make sure these kids have no chance at a decent science education. Ignoring someone harming children has never helped (just look at the RCC).

  67. 67
    zmidponk

    scottrobson:

    I’m not supporting the Hamster _at_ _all_, but common, calling him an ape _is_ an insult. When the word “ape” is used in this context it is not usually referring to humans as well.

    Watch the video. The context of the video is quite explicitly and expressly making the point that all humans, including Ken Ham, are scientifically classified as ‘ape’. However, despite this point being made in about as clear language as it is possible to do so, either Ken Ham, due to his own abject stupidity, is misunderstanding this and quite genuinely thinking this is someone insulting him, or he is quite knowingly and maliciously mischaracterising this as an atheist insulting him by calling him an ape.

  68. 68
    Amphiox

    If only some reliable way could be found to induce the average human to behave like the average bonobo, the world would be a much nicer place to live in.

  69. 69
    nathanloudon

    Apparently our hairy cousin above couldn’t comprehend the fact that 1+1=2, 2+1=3, 3+1=4,4+1=5 etc.. Wouldn’t that be necessary to say it was actually counting, as opposed to using some other method?

    Thanks for the link in any case, fascinating… and much much quicker than I could do it!

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