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Feb 02 2013

[Lounge #400]

baby-macaque

This is the lounge. You can discuss anything you want, but you will do it kindly. Hey, is that a naked little old man over there?

Status: Heavily Moderated; Previous thread

842 comments

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  1. 501
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Aside from this

    Imagine a spherical gay man…

  2. 502
    Portia

    strange gods:

    I apologize for the offensive connotations of my comment. I should have instead asked for a content warning, if I really wanted it. I probably wouldn’t actually be too shocked by whatever Tony (or anyone) chose to disclose, I was thoughtlessly playing into the joke about essences. I’ll try to be more thoughtful in the future.

    Azkyroth:

    The difference between unwilling participation (or observation) of a sex act and unexpectedly reading about a sex act is…monumental. I’m not sure if that’s what you’re trying to compare or not. It’s the difference between being punched in the eye and reading “And then she punched him in the eye.” IMO, anyway.

  3. 503
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    It might be my fault for throwing in details of sexual encounters, which implies a lot more explicitness than just giving a couple of comments about how the sex went, since I don’t really expect anyone is going to give us a point by point retelling with all the juicy details, with or without the TMI warning.

  4. 504
    Portia

    And now I feel like that first sentence sounds notpologetic. Anyway, I appreciate the light shined on my straight privilege and something new to think about. If I have more thoughts I might post about this in the Thunderdome in a bit.

  5. 505
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    It might be my fault for throwing in details of sexual encounters, which implies a lot more explicitness than just giving a couple of comments about how the sex went, since I don’t really expect anyone is going to give us a point by point retelling with all the juicy details, with or without the TMI warning.

    That was explicitly the subject, and RQ’s comment doesn’t even make sense without it.

    Imagine a spherical gay man…

    Why?

  6. 506
    cicely

    Esteleth: Just now, my mind processed your ‘nym as “Esteleth, OH NO, ZEBRAFISH ABORTION IN MORDOR”.
    :D
    -

  7. 507
    rq

    Beatrice, Portia
    I’m pretty sure I’m the one who said something wrong here (took it a bit too far, as it were). :/

  8. 508
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Tony,

    In case our discussion about this, and my comments as a part of it, made you in any way uncomfortable I apologize.

    Talking about some hypothetical situation and going to it from the teasing aimed at you was a bad move. Even if a discussion about what makes a TMI post would be appropriate, I shouldn’t have engaged in it in relation to you, since it can draw some unfortunate conclusions and feed into existing repression as sgbm explained.

    I hope the date will go (went?) great and I’m not going to make any more jokes about essence, but I hope you have a great evening… night, breakfast :)

  9. 509
    strange gods before me ॐ

    I don’t really expect anyone is going to give us a point by point retelling with all the juicy details

    They might. There wouldn’t be anything wrong with it. We have had pretty explicit discussions of just what exactly various commenters like or don’t like.

  10. 510
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    I think you’re all terrible people and should be stopped! :)

    Just as a sort of meta-ish observation:

    People keep saying that “intent isn’t magic” and I get that. On the other hand, intent and action seem to be pretty closely linked on many occasions. So when someone says something problematic(to cover a wide variety of possible comments), and their intent was not harmful, when they have the problem pointed out to them they tend to stop and apologize. As opposed to people with negative intent, or intent that doesn’t include giving a shit about other people, who can be begged to stop and will just double and triple down, all the while claiming to be “just saying” or “making a point” or “merely disagreeing”.

    You folks are awesome, not because you’re perfect, but because you’re open to being wrong and care more about other people’s feelings than scoring abstract rhetorical points.

  11. 511
    rq

    OH thank you for reminding me, Beatrice – my apology here is also for you, Tony, for taking things too far.
    And then what Beatrice said above.

    And apologies also to anyone else who felt silenced/put upon/insulted/in any way negative about what I said and/or the way I said it. I’m very, very sorry and I have no excuse.

  12. 512
    strange gods before me ॐ

    There’s only one person here I’m still angry at, rq, and it isn’t you.

  13. 513
    rq

    Improbable Joe
    Well… As much as I would like to be, I know I can’t be perfect. And besides, I’m also slowly learning that not everyone sees things the way that I do (not like horses???), and that it’s important to acknowledge that.
    That being said, when I was younger, I wasn’t always the most careful of speakers. Typing things seems to save me some trouble, but (as apparent) not always – sometimes my brain just goes ahead and gives the order before processing the actual content. It’s something to work on.
    (You’re amazing, too, you know.)

  14. 514
    rq

    Thank you for letting me know, SGBM (about not being mad anymore).

  15. 515
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I am possibly the only person in existence who hates making the first comment.

    —-
    sgbm,

    They might. There wouldn’t be anything wrong with it. We have had pretty explicit discussions of just what exactly various commenters like or don’t like.

    Ok. I guess I’ll have to give my positions on writing/talking about sex some more thought.

    (Considering my fanfic reading list, one would expect me to have absolutely no problem reading about sex, but it’s just different when it comes to real people talking about their real experiences. Will think about it. It’s probably a “It’s me, not you” problem)

  16. 516
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    sgbm,

    Can you tell me if it’s me still fucking up?

  17. 517
    Portia

    sgbm,

    Can you tell me if it’s me still fucking up?

    Seconded…

  18. 518
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Beatrice, it’s not you. Rather than waffling between being cryptic and starting a real fight here, I’ve left a comment in Thunderdome.

  19. 519
    Jadehawk

    I don’t understand. How much did you hoard? Less than that?

    I am confused about your confusion. I was hoarding the loans in case of emergency, but ideally I would have wanted to dump them back untouched (or replenished) onto the loan provider the moment I graduate, thus effectively meaning I wouldn’t be in debt.

    And then stuff happened, and now I’m $7000 in actual debt, as in money I don’t have but that I’ll have to repay eventually anyway.

  20. 520
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Ok, thanks.

  21. 521
    Xanthë, Amy of my threads

    I’m going to try a stab in the dark that neither of you is the target, and that Azkyroth fits the bill.

    498.
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) [hush]​[hide comment]
    5 February 2013 at 3:14 pm (UTC -6) Link to this comment

    It might be my fault for throwing in details of sexual encounters, which implies a lot more explicitness than just giving a couple of comments about how the sex went, since I don’t really expect anyone is going to give us a point by point retelling with all the juicy details, with or without the TMI warning.

    That was explicitly the subject, and RQ’s comment doesn’t even make sense without it.

    Imagine a spherical gay man…

    Why?

    (If anyone’s interested, the ‘imagine a spherical [object that is not spherical]’ meme is a description of how a physicist will approach a problem with a first-order approximation to grossly simplify a problem to sketch out the likely form of a solution, before considering complicating factors such as, objects that are not spherical are not spherical.)

  22. 522
    Xanthë, Amy of my threads

    Oh, I see I’m late again. Further replies to Thunderdome please.

  23. 523
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    (If anyone’s interested, the ‘imagine a spherical [object that is not spherical]’ meme is a description of how a physicist will approach a problem with a first-order approximation to grossly simplify a problem to sketch out the likely form of a solution, before considering complicating factors such as, objects that are not spherical are not spherical.)

    I’m familiar with the expression.

  24. 524
    Inaji

    I’m not terribly interested in reading details of what someone likes or doesn’t like or does or doesn’t do in bed, yada, yada, yada, however, discussions going into such detail have taken place on TET many a time. I simply scroll past such, as I’m not terribly interested.

    All that said, however, there is a bias against reading or hearing about gay (men) sexual encounters, which I think we all need to be aware of and not feed into it.

  25. 525
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    And actually, my participation was motivated by empathy for seeing someone jumped on in a manner I felt was excessively harsh.

    (If intent doesn’t matter, why do people speculate about mine so much?)

  26. 526
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    All that said, however, there is a bias against reading or hearing about gay (men) sexual encounters, which I think we all need to be aware of and not feed into it.

    Yes.

  27. 527
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Oh why the fuck do I bother.

  28. 528
    rq

    Caine
    Honestly? The mistake here is mine. I (personally) am comfortable with the idea of gay men (really, anyone) having sex. Perhaps I’m a bit prudish in not wanting to know anything about anyone’s sex lives. BUT. My mistake was in falling into the trap of comfort. Because nobody around me (in real life, or here) ever mentions that gay sex is nasty, I simply forgot that, in the wider world, it isperceived with a huge stigma, as something to be abhorred, etc.
    (And I may have just lied, since blogs around here regularly point to institutions and people who are disgusted by the idea of gay sex. :/)
    My mistake? Was in not thinking through the things I wanted to say, and how they might look in the light of the wider world, not just my (own) closed set of thoughts and feelings of comfort about my local area (so to speak).
    So, being too comfortable in this case was a bad thing – it stopped me from actually thinking about what I said and how it may be perceived to those outside of my world-view. I promise to try to do better in the future.

    … And I’m not even sure I’ve blundered through all of that without saying something insulting.

  29. 529
    rq

    Azkyroth
    If you’re talking about me, thanks. Sincerely. (If you’re not, then ignore the rest.)
    But.
    I might think a reaction is too harsh; I might think that, but if I think again, I can understand it, because it’s the same for any thread where some rape apologist comes on and everybody jumps on xir, and xe is all about ‘Hey, why are you all so mad?’ and it’s mostly because these things have been explained a gadjillion times before blablabla.
    So, please, I appreciate it, but I’ll try to manage to blunder through my own mistakes in the future. :)
    If I need help in understanding my transgression, I’ll ask for it.

  30. 530
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    cicely:

    Esteleth, OH NO, ZEBRAFISH ABORTION IN MORDOR

    Brilliant!

  31. 531
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    RQ: Ok.

    SGBM: I think I misunderstood the discussion that was happening, now that I’ve had a chance to think. Sorry. :/

  32. 532
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Good morning, Lounge.

    If it is a good morning, which I’m beginning to doubt.

    I’m prudish when it comes to sex descriptions, and always scroll past them; so I wasn’t at all bothered about people teasing that there had better not be ‘TMI’ in that regard from Tony until SGBM rightly stepped up and complained that, when it comes to gay sex, that is always what people say even when those same people wouldn’t say it to a straight person.

    Now I am ashamed for not realising that.

    Thank you for pointing it out, SGBM. One lives and learns, but only if someone else teaches.

  33. 533
    Hekuni Cat, MQG

    Good morning, Tigger_the_Wing.

    One lives and learns, but only if someone else teaches.

    QFT. And one of the many reasons for hanging out here.

  34. 534
    Portia

    iJoe said:

    People keep saying that “intent isn’t magic” and I get that. On the other hand, intent and action seem to be pretty closely linked on many occasions. So when someone says something problematic(to cover a wide variety of possible comments), and their intent was not harmful, when they have the problem pointed out to them they tend to stop and apologize. As opposed to people with negative intent, or intent that doesn’t include giving a shit about other people, who can be begged to stop and will just double and triple down, all the while claiming to be “just saying” or “making a point” or “merely disagreeing”.

    This a thousand times. It infuriated me to no end when my male cousins whined about how I was so meeeeean being pissed about sexism, and strawmanned my argument by saying I got all bent out of shape at “unintentional slip-ups.” I tried and tried to make them understand that the real problem is what they were doing by digging in and being defensive and ignoring my lived experience. The people I have a problem with regarding sexist remarks are not the people who say “All right, we need all the firemen to come over here…er, I mean firefighers, sorry.” It’s the people, like those cousins who say “But it’s NO BIG DEAL, GET OVER IT, Nobody meant it that way, and besides, freeze peach

    Whew. Thanks for putting it so perfectly Joe. :)

  35. 535
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Alright, Azkyroth.

    And now if you’ll excuse me,

    Imagine a spherical gay man…

    Why?

    Because that’s my fetish! ;)

  36. 536
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    Thinking about going out for a bit, get some outside time. I need it. But I don’t wanna go outside!

  37. 537
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Comments numbers jumped forward because george3′s link was released from moderation. It’s interesting; I recommend it.

  38. 538
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    WMDKitty, I totally recommend going outside. I know it is hard, like weightlifting or showering, but it is almost always worth doing.

  39. 539
    Portia

    Went for a walk. Listened to Chicago Public Radio along the way. They announced the beginning of a new serial, titled “Our Guns.” Described as “We will speak with Americans who strongly value gun ownership, and fight out what we can learn from them.”

    …facepalm.

  40. 540
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Portia,

    I’m glad that worked for you. It goes along with something I saw somewhere else on FTB today:

    SC’s comment at #5 of the Manly Meal thread just made me realize, with quite a jolt, why Vegans irritate me so much. Its because they’re fucking right. At least about the “unimaginable suffering” that befalls that which ends up on my plate.

    Sometimes, oftentimes, people get defensive because they know they’re wrong and just don’t want to cop to it. It isn’t just that they’re wrong, because folks here are wrong all the time and bend over backwards to correct themselves. It is that they’re caught being wrong, and that irritates the shit out of them.

  41. 541
    John Morales

    Showering is hard?

    <boggle>

  42. 542
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    The date did not happen. I did not get enough sleep last night. I woke up multiple times finding myself on the toilet. I don’t know if I ate something that didn’t agree with me or what, but it happened a sufficient number of times to interrupt my sleep to the point that I was exhausted when my alarm clock went off. I texted A and let him know that I would probably be out of it and not as coherent as I would prefer. He said he fully understood and that even though he was disappointed, he wasn’t angry. He even said he didn’t get much sleep, so getting the chance to rest was beneficial to him as well. In addition, I wound up having to go in to work and learn about our computer system. That took up longer than I thought, so it really worked out for the best that we didn’t go out. We have made tentative plans to reschedule next week.

    Last thread:
    Portia, rq:

    (Unless it includes essence, then you can edit for politeness;)

    and

    What Portia said: if there’s too much essence, I’d rather not hear about it. A simple summary of the date and your thoughts on the potential lurrrrve interest will do.

    No worries. While I have no issue discussing sexual interaction in great detail, I would not do so here. I do not think this is the appropriate place to discuss intimacies of that sort. There have been times where I have discussed sexual things and felt like maybe it was inappropriate for the Lounge. Out of consideration for others, I try not to discuss details.
    ****

    SGBM:

    Well that’s nice for you that you’re an all-around prude, but it’s still offensive that you said it. Gay men are way disproportionally reminded of how fucking gross and disgusting our sex is and how nobody wants to hear a hint of it.

    rq, you don’t have to read what you don’t want to read. How about you filter your own inputs and shut up next time instead of telling anyone how graphic they should be.

    Obviously, we have different perspectives on this. I didn’t take rq and Portia’s comments the same way you did. I read them as saying “I do not want to hear intimate details of *anyone’s* sex life, hetero- or homo- sexual”.
    That said, I do completely understand where you’re coming from.

    ****
    Beatrice:

    Well, I probably am too weird about sex, but wouldn’t sharing details of sexual encounters here without even a little TMI warning beforehand be a bit… impolite, I’m not sure about the right word?

    Out of consideration for others, I would include a TMI warning. I would think many people would do the same, no matter their sexuality. Were this a different venue, I would have no problem discussing my sex life. Hell, I often shock people with how open I am discussing things. But it’s in the proper context.

    ****

    Beatrice:

    Tony,

    In case our discussion about this, and my comments as a part of it, made you in any way uncomfortable I apologize

    You have absolutely nothing to apologize for.
    There is a part of me that does believe SG may have blown this slightly out of proportion, but then I have to remind myself that his experiences and mine differ, and he has legitimate reasons for the response he gave. I realized that ultimately I respect his position in this matter.

    I hope the date will go (went?) great and I’m not going to make any more jokes about essence, but I hope you have a great evening… night, breakfast :)

    I got nothing but laughs out of the “essence” comment originally made by Giliell. So no harm done on my end.

  43. 543
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    I should rephrase that slightly. I *initially* thought SG blew things out of proportion. Once I took the time to consider his position, I understood that he didn’t. In the beginning I felt that way. I do not now.

  44. 544
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Sorry to hear the date was delayed, Tony. How are you feeling physically now? Did the digestive upset pass? I hope you catch up on your sleep well tonight.

  45. 545
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Because that’s my fetish! ;)

    Carry on then.

    (Though I’m having a hard time envisioning how you could tell an actual sphere was a gay man or a man at all; it seems like even the organs needed to state his self-identification would introduce radial asymmetry O.o)

  46. 546
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Mellow Monkey:
    I’m feeling better now. Once I ate something and got some fluids in me (I have to remember to replenish lost fluids) I felt better. I am still a bit fatigued, but I intend to turn in early tonight. I decided against going home and napping, b/c that would upset my sleep patterns even more. I am currently at a bar using the net and having a glass of wine. I think I will try to turn in around 10/11.
    Thanks for the concern :)

  47. 547
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Cross-posted from Dispatches:

    But I don’t WANT God to come into my heart. I’m pretty sure he’s antibiotic-resistant and debridement sounds horrifying :’(

  48. 548
    strange gods before me ॐ

    I do not think this is the appropriate place to discuss intimacies of that sort. There have been times where I have discussed sexual things and felt like maybe it was inappropriate for the Lounge.

    It’s not. It never has been. I’ve been around since the beginning of the thread. So has Caine; I’m not just imagining things.

    Out of consideration for others, I try not to discuss details.

    That’s your prerogative, but it’s not a social more here.

    I didn’t take rq and Portia’s comments the same way you did. I read them as saying “I do not want to hear intimate details of *anyone’s* sex life, hetero- or homo- sexual”.

    I didn’t read them any differently, at least regarding anyone’s conscious introspection.

    I am nevertheless upset by the implications of who this affects. There are relatively many places in the world where details of hetero sex can be discussed without being silenced. There are relatively few places in the world where gay sex can likewise be discussed. Pharyngula has been one of those places. I will not accept any side-effect which makes it no longer so, on the premise that that would somehow be “fair” because it likewise reduces the enormous number of safe places for hetero people by one.

    Out of consideration for others, I would include a TMI warning. I would think many people would do the same, no matter their sexuality. Were this a different venue, I would have no problem discussing my sex life. Hell, I often shock people with how open I am discussing things. But it’s in the proper context.

    This is that context. A TMI warning is fine. But this is not a black-tie dinner.

  49. 549
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Gotcha. I’ll try not to be so quick to argue abstract principles. :/

  50. 550
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    John Morales

    Showering is hard?

    It is when one is in the throes of major depression, yes.

    Tony
    Bummer about the canceled date, hopefully you feel better soon and the rescheduled date goes well.

  51. 551
    cicely

    Tony: Sorry you’re unwell, and that you had to cancel your date. It sounds promising, though, that he had no problem with rescheduling.
     
    Be sure to drink plenty of fluids. Non-alcoholic ones, too.
    :)
    -

    (Though I’m having a hard time envisioning how you could tell an actual sphere was a gay man or a man at all; it seems like even the organs needed to state his self-identification would introduce radial asymmetry O.o)

    Perhaps they are tucked away in a sort of pouch?
    -

    Cross-posted from Dispatches:

    But I don’t WANT God to come into my heart. I’m pretty sure he’s antibiotic-resistant and debridement sounds horrifying :’(

    *snortle*
    And he mutates constantly—no doubt to keep on top of the ever-moving state of pharmacological art.
    -

  52. 552
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    SGBM:
    On this matter, you and I disagree somewhat*. It is more a personal preference of mine not to discuss intimate details of my sex life here. Not because I am embarrassed, but because I think they are private affairs that others do not want to know about. I have no issue with people discussing what they do in the privacy of their bedroom. Were anyone-you, Caine, SC, Portia, IJoe, Beatrice, carlie, rq, Azkyroth, etc-to discuss their sex lives, it would be no issue to me whatsoever. I read virtually every post, and would likely read such a comment by someone. But I do not expect others to share my openness for discussing or reading about sex, so I shy away from discussing my sex life.
    All that said, I do not know if I do so because of prudery, out of respect for boundaries in the Lounge (which may not exist, as you say since the topic of sex has come up before), or because there is a part of me that has accepted the social “rule” that discussion of gay sex is wrong.

    *Ultimately though, I think your point about shaming any discussion of gay sex is an important one that we all should pay attention to.

  53. 553
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    iJoe
    Yup, outsides is totally worth the effort. Got rained on a bit, but I also got some socialization, and replenished my herbal stash, so… Win. Efficient, productive Win.

    John Morales
    Yes, showering can be very difficult when one has less than zero motivation. Throw physical disability on top of that, and it gets to be damn hard. (And then you have those of us who have a visceral reaction to “wet” — I absolutely loathe the feeling of having water on my skin, and try to minimize my exposure.)

  54. 554
    strange gods before me ॐ

    On this matter, you and I disagree somewhat*. It is more a personal preference of mine not to discuss intimate details of my sex life here.

    I’m not disagreeing with your preference. All I’m saying is it’s your preference; it’s not any kind of unspoken rule around here.

    You should know that it is okay to talk about it if you want to. That’s all, that’s how it’s been, and I want it to stay that way.

  55. 555
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    *hugs SGBM*

    No particular reason, just sounded like you could use one.

  56. 556
    carlie

    Randomness: name popularity interactive chart.
    I believe it’s US popularity. But it’s pretty cool the way the chart works; as you type the name in, it graphs the popularity over time of what you’ve written, and it will also do spelling variants on the name.

  57. 557
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    SGBM:
    Understood. Thank you :)

  58. 558
    John Morales

    Dalillama:

    It is when one is in the throes of major depression, yes.

    WMDKitty:

    Yes, showering can be very difficult when one has less than zero motivation.

    Hm.

    I didn’t see any such conditionals in the original contention, but I can hardly deny these claims, can I? :)

  59. 559
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    It has been rare that I’ve discussed sexual matter here. I do recall a comment I made while back about how I’m a bottom and it is incredibly difficult to find someone who is a top (or versatile) in this town. In addition, another problem I face is that people look at me and think “oh, he’s got muscles, so he’s a top. He’s going to fuck me.” This has been a *major* stumbling block in the last 5 years. To be honest, I think it was the reason that K stopped talking to me last year.

  60. 560
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    Hello everybody, I haven’t been lounging much recently.

    But I just want to share now that my FtB ads are now all about “1 weird tip to gain muscle fast!” No more of those “lose fat fast” ones now. (I attribute this to doing a google search for a squat rack.)

  61. 561
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Hugs are accepted and reciprocated exponentially.

    +++++

    “oh, he’s got muscles, so he’s a top. He’s going to fuck me.”

    You’d think a little bit of life experience would put these kinds of expectations to rest. But confirmation bias is strong; cases which do not conform to a stereotype are easily forgotten. :(

    To be honest, I think it was the reason that K stopped talking to me last year.

    Oof. That’s rough, Tony. Sorry to hear that.

  62. 562
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    So, in chatting with A, he just asked me if I believe in Heaven and God…oh boy. I was hoping to put that off til a later date…

  63. 563
    strange gods before me ॐ

    “I believe we only have each other.”

    True and warm.

  64. 564
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    And OH BOY, it is getting deep.

  65. 565
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    He and are are currently chatting on Facebook.
    A recent exchange:

    A: Wow…. so how do you explain the universe? The existence of life itself?

    Me: The words “I don’t know the answer” immediately spring to mind. Too often, I find that people of various religions will say “I don’t understand how this could have happened. Therefore god.” I cannot reach that conclusion. Just because abiogenesis is ruled out (for instance), does not mean that a specific god from a specific religion is the cause of everything. Eliminating one process from the discussion of the origin of life does not give credence to another. For instance, if evolution were disproven, that would not mean that the Judeo Christian god existed. After all, humans have worshipped thousands of gods. How does one go about determining which one is real, and which ones are imaginary?

  66. 566
    Portia

    “I believe we only have each other.”

    I like that :)

    Tony:

    Hope it’s not acrimonious at all. I’m confident you can handle it with your usual aplomb, though.

    Glad you’re feeling better, too.

  67. 567
    Portia

    I think I’m going to sleep well tonight. Just got home from fire dept meeting, which included training tonight. We spent 75 minutes getting into and out of our gear, including air pack, in various combinations and challenges. Whew. I feel like I could pass out on my keyboard.

  68. 568
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    FUCK.
    This may be going south.
    FAST.

  69. 569
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Portia:
    Sweet dreams. I think I may be heading off to the Sandman Land soon myself.

  70. 570
    Portia

    At the risk of running a monologue, good answer, Tony! Concise but adequately comprehensive.

  71. 571
    Portia

    Whoa whoa whoa, going south? Suddenly I’m a little more awake.

  72. 572
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Portia:
    Sorry. I know you need sleep.
    This is the only place I have to discuss these issues with. It is one tremendous barrier to me developing a relationship with someone. It is hard enough to meet a guy that I have chemistry with. To meet someone like that, and face the theist/atheist stumbling block is massively frustrating.

    The latest volley:

    A: Thats where faith comes in…. there is only 1 God tho he has many names… to some He is God to others He is allah and yet to others He is yeshua…. I believe without a doubt in my mind heart and soul He exists and there is life after death and heaven and hell….

    Me: By the way, this discussion is one *HUGE* stumbling block to buidling a relationship with someone. Few people are willing to entertain the idea of a relationship with someone who does not believe as they do.
    I cannot accept faith as a reason to believe in something. Faith, as defined by religion is “belief without evidence”. If someone told me they believe in an invisible dragon in their garage…a dragon that no one could see, but really existed…a dragon that left an impact on the world, but no one today could detect…a dragon that laid down laws and rules for humanity to follow…I would not be able to accept that.
    I cannot accept believing in things for which there is insufficient evidence. I do not see enough evidence to believe in Thor, Odin, Zeus, Allah, God, Yahweh, Quetzalcoatl, Isis, Osiris, Set, Apollo, Athena or any of the thousands of other gods humanity has created.
    Without proof of some sort…substantial proof…I cannot believe claims of an extraordinary nature.
    When people talk to me about any particular god (remember that humans as a whole worship more than the god YOU are familiar with), I see no more evidence for HIM (convenient that it is a guy) than for unicorns, fariies, dragons, elves, or orcs.
    I am not trying to offend you and I certainly understand if you do not want to continue talking to me. I would find it unfortunate, because I think you are a good person. However, this is an issue that would come out in time. Perhaps it is better to have it out in the open now, rather than later.

    He hasn’t responded.
    I rather want to cry right now.
    I am so fucking tired of being single.

  73. 573
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Damn, damn, damn. I am so sorry, Tony. :(

  74. 574
    Portia

    Tony, don’t be sorry, I was going to be awake a bit longer anyway. And being a listening ear for you is well worth even an unplanned delay. That out of the way, I’m so so sorry that this came up. Or rather, that this obstacle exists. I wish I had more comfort but I know it’s just frustrating and aggravating and disappointing. I’m glad you can at least get it out. *hugs* and *sangria*

  75. 575
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Lounge goers, please forgive me. I know I am taking up space. I just need people to share this with.

    A: I dont think your a bad person… you have your reasons in not believing just as i have mine for believing… it is what it is… i will admit that our philosophies on life are quite indeed different. I will also admit that my ideal partner or future husband would posess the same ideals or to some exent the same beliefs about “life” as i do.

    Me: remember when I said that I value people who have opinions that are informed by reason or logic? This is one HUGE area where that is important. Most people in the world believe in their chosen deity because of the family they are raised in. They do not choose to believe in that deity. Their parents, and their parents’ parents, believe, therefore they do too. Few people take the time to look for evidence of the existence of a deity to believe it. It’s called indoctrination. I am thoroughly against it. If a god of any sort existed, it should not need coercion to get people to believe. Yet if you looked back on your life, can you pinpoint a moment where you decided, based on all the evidence available, that YOUR particular god exists, and the thousands of others do not? By what criteria do you determine your god is real and the others aren’t? From my perspective, you are atheistic about thousands of gods, save one. I am atheistic about a thousand AND ONE gods.

  76. 576
    John Morales

    Tony, FWIW, I’m married to a church-going Catholic.

    (Been with her for well over 30 years)

  77. 577
    cicely

    Tony: *hugs* and emotional support. And more *hugs*.
    -

  78. 578
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Unsolicited advice: if he does respond, tell him you’d like to hang out with him a few times before you discuss this any more.

    Atheists are scary. We get less scary when the other person develops a personal affection.

    I won’t give any more unsolicited advice tonight.

  79. 579
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Part of me wants to just stop for the night. I am in a bar right now, and do not feel like breaking down in tears.
    A is reasonable, but it does seem like he places importance on people who share some of the same values he possesses. Fucking religion.
    I just want someone to share my life with, y’know?
    Is that too much to fucking ask for?
    Sometimes I think it is.
    I’ve been asking for that for fucking 16 years.
    Yet here I am, the relationship inept gay man who cannot sustain anything past 3 months.
    Are there hugs available? I need a few.

  80. 580
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    unsolicited advice is still advice. It still has merit. I still value it. Maybe I’ve said too much at this point.
    FUCK.

  81. 581
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    John:
    Interesting.
    Incredibly interesting.
    I wonder how that works.
    Especially given the Catholic Church.

  82. 582
    Portia

    *beep beep beep* *Portia backs up dumptruck full of hugs for Tony*

  83. 583
    Portia

    I don’t think you’ve said too much Tony. I don’t know what would be too much, but I’m certain you’re not there. More hugs.

  84. 584
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    I’ve got hugs for you, Tony. All the hugs. *HUGS*

    I’ve had a serious relationship with woman who was religious and we made it work for a while despite my atheism. I’m not sure if I could do it now, though. She dumped me because Jesus didn’t approve of us. Fucking religion indeed.

  85. 585
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    My last message to him for the night:

    A lot of people in the US have a negative view of non believers. We are seen as immoral, deviant, or evil. I like to think that I’ve expressed myself in such a way that you can see that I am none of those things. I am a good person. I care about people. I want to make the world a better place. I want to help advance the causes of social justice. I want to help stand up for the downtrodden. I want to be a positive force for humanity. I want to fall in love. I want a family. I want a legacy. I want someone to share my life with. I hope that you will weigh all of that when you decide where things progress from here.

    Gods.
    Do you know how hard it is to not cry when you are in a bar full of strangers?

  86. 586
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Mellow Monkey:
    How long were you able to maintain the relationship?

  87. 587
    Inaji

    Oh Tony. C’mere, you, Imma squeeze you for a while.

    If you feel you have it in you, I second what SG said about getting together to hang out a few times. These discussions can be much easier once you get to know someone better, and can often be productive, rather than a source of pain.

  88. 588
    Portia

    having cried in a bar full of people I knew when I was dumped in public once, I feel your pain. I’m so sorry, friend. moarhugs.

  89. 589
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Tony, it lasted about three years. In the end, she broke up with me because she decided she was going to try to be straight or celibate. The last I heard, she was now a liberal Christian and married to a woman. I’m happy that she was able to come to some peace about her orientation, at least.

  90. 590
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    A possible beacon of light???

    A:Tony i never said i deemed you as any of that just for being a non believer…. thats ultimately YOUR decision… if i deemed you as any of that this whole conversation would never be going on…

  91. 591
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Tony
    Fuck, I’m sorry, dude. Lots of *hugs*

  92. 592
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    You know what makes all of this worse?
    Sexism.
    I’m sitting here in a bar, >.< this close to crying and one of the things that springs to mind…?
    "Don't cry like a girl."
    Really?
    Seriously?
    For all that I've learned about sexism, patriarchy, misogyny and the sexist culture we live in and I still have that as a knee jerk thought? Shit, the depth of sexism in our culture is deeeeeeeep. I know we are all swimming in it. I know it is good to acknowledge the presence of sexism. But dammit, I want to be better than this!
    (once more, apologies for turning this iteration of The Lounge into "All about Tony")

  93. 593
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Tony

    ::fingers crossed!::

  94. 594
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    *hugs Tony*

    Dude. I’m sorry.

  95. 595
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Caine, Dalillama, Portia, SGBM, Mellow Monkey, cicely, John Morales:

    Thank you all.
    More than words can say.

    I do not know how I would be able to deal with this kind of shit without the emotional support of the Horde.

  96. 596
    Rey Fox

    You get a hug from this longtime single and currently temporarily off-the-market dude.

    I can also maybe mention the time that I got kicked out of a bar/club for falling asleep at one of the tables and had to have a guy I barely knew at the time talk me down from a violent sobbing fit outside. (It was not a good night for me to be drinking)

  97. 597
    John Morales

    Tony, hard to explain, and everyone is different, and interpersonal chemistry is a mysterious thing.

    Point being, it shows that such differences need not always be an insurmountable obstacle to love, nevermind friendship.

    Not saying it can or will work out for you two, just saying that it’s a bit early yet to despair that there’s no hope to be had.

    (You have my best wishes)

  98. 598
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    John Morales

    I didn’t see any such conditionals in the original contention, but I can hardly deny these claims, can I?

    The conditionals were rather implied by WMDkitty’s posting history, both in general and particularly the several posts preceding the one in question.

  99. 599
    mythbri

    @Tony

    Yet here I am, the relationship inept gay man who cannot sustain anything past 3 months.
    Are there hugs available? I need a few.

    I’m sending you hugs through a series of tubes.

    You’re not the only one that feels this way, and I beg you not to view it as your own personal failing (if in fact that’s what you’re doing).

    And have I felt like bursting into tears in a public place, in front of lots of people?

    Yes, I have. It was when I was messaging someone that I felt very strongly about, and felt that I could have a long-term relationship with. And then he revealed to me, casually, seeming to not understand the impact of what he was saying that [TRIGGER WARNING] used to fuck one of his previous girlfriends when she was asleep, until the time that she woke up and freaked out on him. He said that he hand’t realized it was wrong before, and that he would never do it again. But he didn’t acknowledge what he had done was rape, and I was terrified every single moment he was in my apartment when he came to visit me so we could meet in person.

    Yes, I said “yes” to meeting him, even after I knew what he had done. I don’t know why. I have no idea WHY, unless it was to somehow really confirm to myself that I couldn’t be with him. And I did confirm it, as I (kind of) slept with my door locked as he snored on the couch. And I packed him back off to the airport as soon as possible, and broke up with him via email after I got home from dropping him off. I didn’t feel safe to break up with him in person.

    I still feel like a complete moron after that entire thing, but I was lonely, and he and I had so much in common. I’m a feminist, goddamnit! I should have known better. But I learned that there are some things I cannot tolerate in a partner, and (go figure) being a rapist is one of them. :P I learned what it is to live in a rape culture, where you can’t believe that someone you’ve grown to care very much about can do something so horrible. And that somehow, you can’t make yourself come to a hard realization. Or at least, it’s extremely difficult.

    This turned out to be more about me than it is about you, and I’m sorry. I hope that A realizes that his feeling about non-believers/atheists aren’t really rational, and that he doesn’t use it as an excuse to find out what a good person you are.

    And if he does, then that’s on him. It’s not you.

    *More hugs*

  100. 600
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    John:

    Point being, it shows that such differences need not always be an insurmountable obstacle to love, nevermind friendship.

    Despite it being an anecdote, this does give me hope.

    Thanks!

  101. 601
    cicely

    Tony: So very many *hugs.
     
    Would it help to point out to him that religion ≠ values & morals?
     
    fwiw—The Husband and I have been successfully married for…lemmeseenow…something like 31 years, without him being an atheist? We’ve discussed the subject manymanymany times, and apart from believing that some outside Force has to have touched off the Big Bang, our views on Life, the Universe, and Everything are remarkably coincident…and our values & morals match at almost all points.
    -

  102. 602
    mythbri

    *doesn’t use it as an excuse NOT to find out what a good person you are.

  103. 603
    Chris Clarke

    Tony, don’t lose hope. He may never have thought about these things before, and you might be the person who leads him in the direction he needs to go. Or the two of you may decide to agree to disagree. One of my long-term love interests believed in astrology and woo-medicine. Still does. I still love her. My fiancee Annette is atheist and skeptical, true, but she hates Firefly. Sometimes you can work around the fact that the person you love is fatally wrong on something crucial. ; )

  104. 604
    Inaji

    Tony, there are a number of people here who are married to theists, all of them in happy, working marriages. I’d say it’s just too soon to totally write this person off, unless they declare it non-workable due to their beliefs. It’s not the easiest thing, to have an atheist/theist relationship, but it can be done. This is something you’ll have decide for yourself, whether or not you can deal with it. If you feel you can’t, then don’t try. If you feel there is a possibility there, then explore it.

    As for crying, try to remember that way back in the day, it was considered to be a sign of manliness, to be able to cry.

  105. 605
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Man…
    this community is awesome.

  106. 606
    Inaji

    Chris:

    My fiancee Annette is atheist and skeptical, true, but she hates Firefly.

    ! Now that’s serious stuff.

  107. 607
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Caine:
    ???
    Really?
    Crying was a sign of manliness?
    I always thought the opposite. I thought expressions of emotion were seen as feminine.
    Was this something you learned in reading your most recent book on misogyny?

  108. 608
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Chris:
    Thanks for the kind words.
    I do hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but Firefly is not one of Joss Whedons’ best. It is still good, mind you…

  109. 609
    Inaji

    Tony:

    Crying was a sign of manliness?

    During the age of chivalry, yes, it was. Knights were openly emotional, in the sense they showed affection (primarily for their fellow men, but it was still good) and felt no shame whatsoever in crying.

  110. 610
    Inaji

    Tony:

    I do hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but Firefly is not one of Joss Whedons’ best.

    Now how would you feel if I said that about Buffy?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    ;D

  111. 611
    Nutmeg

    Tony: *big big hugs*

    You deserve to be happy, and I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with you that has prevented you from having a long-term relationship. From what I know of you, you are an exceptionally caring, intelligent, and moral person. You’ve just had a lot of bad luck with relationships so far. *MOAR HUGZ*

    FWIW, my atheist dad has been married to my Catholic mom for nearly 36 years. The degree to which my mom practices Catholicism has varied over the years, but as far as I know she retains some kind of belief in a higher power and an afterlife. My dad has been an atheist since his early teens. They’ve made it work. I think sharing other ethical values is probably an important factor. I hope the Horde members who have experience with mixed-religion relationships can give you some insight.

  112. 612
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Caine:
    If you said that about Buffy, well……….I would have to say “YOU SUCK!”
    (but still rock)

  113. 613
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Here’s a whole warehouse of hugs for Tony… you deserve them brother.

  114. 614
    Inaji

    Tony, now see – perhaps instead of chatting about faith, you should enquire as to how A feels about 1) Whedon, 2) Buffy and 3) Firefly. These issues, they be important! :D

  115. 615
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    He has bucked the trend. He is continuing to chat with me. Huh.

  116. 616
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    IJoe:
    Would that be the 13th Warehouse of hugs?
    ****
    Caine:
    Have you heard of how eeeeeeeeeeevil you are?

  117. 617
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Tony
    That’s good news.

  118. 618
    Nutmeg

    Yep. On Friday, I had to ask L. the all-important question of how she feels about Harry Potter. She hasn’t read the books (oh no!), but she saw and liked the movies (okay). Fortunately she loves Tamora Pierce, so that earns her extra points in the children’s books category.

  119. 619
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Nutmeg:
    Is Harry Potter your Buffy?

    (I think Buffy the Vampire Slayer is *the* best television show ever and one of the best examples of serialized storytelling ever)

  120. 620
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    *adds hugs to the general reservoir*

    I assume hugs are fungible?

    *harvests the fungi from the hugs, gets a pan going*

  121. 621
    mythbri

    @Nutmeg #618

    Loving Tamora Pierce is essential. L. has good taste.

  122. 622
    inthelemonlight

    Giliell
    “If television’s a babysitter, the Internet’s a drunk librarian who can’t shut up.” – Dorothy Gambrell

    richardh
    Noted. Cool. (Though I wonder whether it wasn’t as straightforward as A-causes-B, but more like C-causes-both-A-and-B, since it looks like both Cluedo and Ludo were named after the Latin word.)

    george3
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_law_in_Sweden

    My favourite part is the description of the pair of Swedish parents who named their son Brfxxccxxmnpcccclllmmnprxvclmnckssqlbb11116 (pronounced ‘Albin’) in protest of the law. The courts were not amused.

    mildlymagnificent
    My parents never had cable. Most of the time as a kid I understood that TV wasn’t a good alternative to my imagination. That said, my siblings and I still watched way too many junky videos, some of which I’m not happy to have cluttering up my memory. * laughs *

    IJoe

    You folks are awesome, not because you’re perfect, but because you’re open to being wrong and care more about other people’s feelings than scoring abstract rhetorical points.

    This!

    SGBM
    2:48. Which is, uh, kind of disturbing given that I learned to play yesterday…but then my brain has always been kind of freakishly good at spatial-visualisation. It makes up for it with mild prosopagnosia and some funny little auditory-processing problems. I have a slightly weird brain. It’s awesome.

    Tony
    Darn! Sorry about the letdown! That’s rough. I agree that maybe you’ll be the reason why he starts being more receptive to non-believers. Hang in there for now and see how it goes.

  123. 623
    Inaji

    Tony:

    Have you heard of how eeeeeeeeeeevil you are?

    Not in the last day or three. Thank you, Dear.

  124. 624
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    ::Harry Potter is ok. MST3K sucks. Doctor Who is a Satanic Show…::
    (I seek to cause drama, in an attempt to distract from my personal drama)

  125. 625
    Nutmeg

    Tony: I’m also a big fan of Buffy, but that’s more recent. Children’s literature, particularly fantasy, might be a sticking point for me. I don’t know if I could be with someone who actively hated Harry Potter. ;) Other children’s books/series that I might be illogically attached to: A Wrinkle in Time, The Dark is Rising, Young Wizards, anything by Tamora Pierce, Robin McKinley, or Roald Dahl.

  126. 626
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    Aww, Tony. *hugs* and best wishes.
    But wait, if I gain muscle as the ads are telling me, then I will be a top and so… umm, wait, no, this is going the wrong way somehow. I’ll stick with hugs.

  127. 627
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    Tamora Pierce rules! I only read her books recently – I think it must have been on your advice, Nutmeg. A while back, I noted down a bunch of Horde recommendations without also noting who suggested them.

  128. 628
    Pteryxx

    well heck Tony, maybe this guy can at least provisionally accept you as Not Like Those Other Atheists for now ;> and with much good fortune, you could work on converting each other er, changing the world, later. You’re a damned fine person. *adds to hug truck*

  129. 629
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Well, he is just *trying* to buck the trend…

    A: i said yes the first night i met you…. actually i believe i said absolutely…. whats the harm in going on a date? it would be nice to go on a date and have a little bit of romance in my life other than “hey lets fuck”

  130. 630
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Pteryxx, Alethea:
    Thank you both :)

    ****
    Something I was thinking about today…what gave PZ the idea to create TET in the first place?

  131. 631
    Nutmeg

    YAY for hope with A!

  132. 632
    Inaji

    Tony:

    A: i said yes the first night i met you…. actually i believe i said absolutely…. whats the harm in going on a date? it would be nice to go on a date and have a little bit of romance in my life other than “hey lets fuck”

    Sounds to me that you and A have a fair bit in common, and those things may well outweigh the atheist/theist problem.

  133. 633
    Inaji

    Tony:

    what gave PZ the idea to create TET in the first place?

    It was a particularly noisy and prolific creationist who was all over the place in threads, and one thread in particular which was reaching quite the length, but the commentariat protested when PZ made noise about closing the thread, so he opened up the first instance of TET, for the purpose of having a dedicated thread for arguing with said person. It evolved from there.

  134. 634
    Chris Clarke

    MST3K sucks

    Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, there. I mean there’s healthy disagreement and there’s just being wrong.

  135. 635
    Portia
    MST3K sucks

    Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa, there. I mean there’s healthy disagreement and there’s just being wrong.

    Tragically wrong.

  136. 636
    Portia

    Back from a medical call (poor lady had problems similar to yours last night Tony : /) , and i’m so glad to hear there’s a glimmer of hope with A! Woot!

  137. 637
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Look, as a card carrying member of LGBTQI, I am incapable of being wrong on any day ending in a “Y”.

    Just accept the truth. MST3K sucks.

    Even the Pope said it was awful :)

  138. 638
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    I told A that he reignited my hope and confidence in humanity through his words of acceptance.

  139. 639
    Portia

    But, I’m a woman, so stereotypically, I win every argument with a man. Because he’ll get tired of my harping, right? So there!

    Kyriarchy for the loss…

  140. 640
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Possibly the last exchange of the night:

    Me:
    You have reignited my hope and confidence in humanity through what you’ve said. Thank you.

    A: care to explain?

    Me: As I mentioned, my belief system is a big stumbling block to making relationships work, because many people think non believers are immoral. To talk to someone who I think is attractive, who thinks I am attractive, and who knows my belief system, yet remains attracted to me, and willing to continue conversing with me gives me hope that people can look past differing beliefs and accept that though we may have opposing beliefs, we can pursue the possibility of coming together and forging bonds of great depth. Despite your youth, the maturity you display has shredded my cynicism. It has reignited my hope that anything can be possible. You have proven me wrong. And you have given me hope. Thank you.

  141. 641
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Portia:
    I wonder…in a harping contest between you and I…who would win?

  142. 642
    Portia

    Hoo boy…I have been honing my harping for here goin’ on a few years. I mean, I’m a woman and a feminist, plus I’m uppity, doin’ man jobs and stuff. I’m pretty harpish, as it were. ;)

    (thanks for the updates on the convo, your eloquence and depth of sentiment and thought always makes em envious of your wordsmithing abilities).

  143. 643
    Hekuni Cat, MQG

    Tony – *more hugs*

  144. 644
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Sorry Portia
    I am not seeing the uppitiness, or harpishness. You may need to work on those more :)

  145. 645
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Portia:
    how often are you on call?
    I thought you were getting ready to call it a night…

  146. 646
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    But, I’m a woman, so stereotypically, I win every argument with a man. Because he’ll get tired of my harping, right? So there!

    I’ve never seen ‘harping’ used in that sense before. I’ve heard ‘carping’ and ‘harping on,’ but every time I’ve ever seen harping used alone it has referred to playing the harp. I found the subsequent exchanges with Tony to be increasingly confusing…

  147. 647
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    I wonder if Chris can bunnify my anti MST3K comments…

  148. 648
    Portia

    Ha! Thanks Tony. I’ll work on being more horrible. :)

    I’m on call whenever I’m in the fire district, but we all are. I was all cozied up in bed when the radio went off (I’m back in bed now, thank goodness), but it’s an all-volunteer department so we’re all on call all the time. Sometimes you can’t go or you feel like crap or you sleep through the alarm or you hear over the radio that the call is covered so you don’t go. And to answer inevitable, if no one on our department responds, then the neighboring department is called. There is always an ambulance staffed by the local hospital on call, so no one’s medical emergency goes untended regardless.

  149. 649
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Dalillama:
    I’ve heard “harping” used in reference to discussing a topic…to death (in some eyes). Basically, it is the idea that someone is discussing something over, and over, and over, and they won’t let it go. I suspect when you’ve heard “harping on”, that means the same as when I’ve heard “harping”.

  150. 650
    Portia

    *to answer the inevitable question

    blah.

  151. 651
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    So perhaps it will be: Portia: She who will be Horrible

  152. 652
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Tony
    Yes, that’s it exactly. ‘Harping on’ is the only usage I’m familiar with for “won’t let the topic go,’ while carping is to complain or grump about something.

    “Harp and Carp, come along with me, Thomas the rhymer.” :)

  153. 653
    Portia

    Ha! I had just been thinking I wanted a new postnym, because I’m feeling ok presently. (Might be denial, but I can’t be sure. I’m riding the wave, whatever this is).

  154. 654
    Portia

    I took melatonin before the call even went out, like 90 minutes ago, so I’m going to cash out. Busy day tomorrow, including lunch with my new potential lawyer friend. We’re going to brainstorm ideas for starting a local young lawyer’s group. If what you want doesn’t exist, then start it! :D

    Ok, for real, good night. It’s been nice talking tonight.

    And if anyone knows how to combat a recurring eye twitch, let me know, k? Ugh.

  155. 655
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    To all those people in need of gravitars: Something Shiny.

  156. 656
    chigau (違う)

    X-post
    I see that the 9-5 office thing is going to totally fuck-up my participation here.
    I’m still reading Lounge and Thunderdome.
    *hugs*
    and
    *kicks*
    distribute as needed

  157. 657
    Camcaran

    Sick at home and trying to catch up with the conversation.

    My support to Tony and good night to Portia
    Good morning to everyone else =)

  158. 658
    Camcaran

    Abstruse Goose is back =)

  159. 659
    ednaz

    Tony, I’m just catching up. Can I still send you a *hug*?

    Also, your words are so eloquent. How can you be so awesome when you’re not even feeling well??

    I am sooo jealous!

  160. 660
    ednaz

    Caine, Just wanted to let you know I saved part of one of your posts. I titled it ‘Caine Being Fucking Awesome’.
    This is the last part of it.

    Now, do some people love kids, all kids, any kids? Sure. However, that does not extrapolate to everyone else. More to the point, once again, it is not automagically in a woman’s “nature” to like or care about sproglets.

    You’re just awesome, that’s all.

  161. 661
    ednaz

    I still feel awkward, but I’m gonna keep reading and posting. : )

    It’s your fault, Horde, for being kind to me.

  162. 662
    chigau (違う)

    ednaz
    Have the last of the rum.
    I hafta be awake (and alert and productive) in 6 hours.

  163. 663
    ednaz

    Good morning, Everyone.
    -

    Camcaran, I love the sweet robot cartoon.
    -

    Chigau, Is there something I can send through the USB to help with the 9-5 Torment?

  164. 664
    ednaz

    Hee hee! Thanks, Chigau! Yum!

    My offer still stands. : )

  165. 665
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Good morning

    inthemonlight
    I like that

    Tony
    Big hugses.
    Mr. was still a somewhat esotherical deist à la “there must be something out there beyond life”.

    Get well, camcaran

    +++
    And somebody remind me to purge the word “essence” from my vocabulary. Jesus fucking Christ

  166. 666
    Amblebury

    Hi all, hi Alethea!

    -

    Hugs for Tony and, (trigger warning: unsolicited advice.) If it’s late and you’re tired, things may seen worse than they really are. What SGBM said. It’s good.
    -
    Chris

    My fiancee Annette is atheist and skeptical, true, but she hates Firefly.

    Crickets.
    -
    WMDkitty I don’t have a dislike of my skin being wet, but I have an intense dislike of being touched when wet. The subject of showering with others for romance and lurve was raised recently. Frankly, I think I’d rather chew lightbulbs.

  167. 667
    ednaz

    Camcaran, I’m sorry. I mixed up AbstruseGoose with another cartoon.
    I am sending RSA-2048 to my Hoodlum. I think he will get a kick out of it. : )
    -

    Sending hot tea and warm slippers through the USB.

  168. 668
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Tony,

    Still needing hugs? You can save these for later if not: *hugs*

    We will have a chat about Doctor Who. I’m not sure whether “Satanic show” was a compliment or not. If not… *shakes head sadly*

  169. 669
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    OMG, rum. Me and rum are non-mixy. Big time non-mixy. What’s rum made of, anyway? And why do some kinds of alcohol leave you mildly “blah” the next day, while others, in equal amounts (“equal amounts” being alcohol percentage), leave you wanting to just die?
     
    Like, I can drink a buttload of sake, and end up mildly hungover. Guinness, similarly, doesn’t leave me with much of an aftereffect. Everything else just goes straight through me and leaves me with a brain-pulverizing headache that makes suicide sound extremely appealing.
     
    Heh, there’s a reason I prefer my intoxicants on the sticky-green-and-stinky side of things. Less with the hangovers and more with the pleasantly-lazy wake-up after a pot-nap.
     
    *stops, re-reads*
     
    Whoa. Babbling. Shutting up now.
     
    Oh, wait, one more tiny thing:
     
    Ogvorbis
     
    You’re right. Figuring out some of the “why” is helping. I’m still upset with myself for “allowing” my abuser to do his thing, because “it’s your fault I’m doing this” was pretty well beat into me by, yeah, my abuser. On a rational level, yes, I know that nothing I did, or could have done, (short of dropping dead) would have affected his actions. I know that he made the choice to abuse me, regardless of his reasoning. But… part of me is still insisting that if I had only loved him enough and did exactly what he wanted and blah-de-fucking-blah… shit, we all know the drill.
     
    POSSIBLE TRIGGER WARNING: NON-EXPLICIT DISCUSSION OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
     
    I had to re-learn things. Still do. Boundaries, I’m so used to having every. little. thing. scrutinized, questioned, and supervised that I sometimes feel a little bit lost without someone hovering over me. All while totally hating having someone hover over me. Yay, self-contradictory brain! Part of this boundaries thing, he had zero respect whatsoever for my belongings, while his were Not To Be Touched Under Any Circumstances.
     
    Touch. Touch is still a little difficult, especially if it’s a surprise touch. I need touch. I crave touch. Give me pettings, head scritches, even tummy rubs if I’m feeling safe enough! But again, I’m freakin’ terrified that any given touch, as pleasant as it may be at the moment, will turn into hurting. This isn’t exactly a new issue for me, but my abuser cranked this one up to eleven and yanked off the knob.
     
    Heh heh, “Yanked off the knob.”
     
    Sorry. Back to serious stuff.
     
    Angry men. Fuck. Just… angry men. They scare me. I’m scared of my own father now!
     
    Confinement, especially of the full-body restraining kind. He tried to “cure” my claustrophobia by doing the worst thing you can possibly do — pinning me down, completely immobilizing me, and covering my face. Needless to say, it did not work.
     
    Polyamory. Yeah. I know. But this ties back into the “trust” thing. I got burned badly by my abuser. He insisted on an open relationship, had his little “harem”, and had a set of rules drawn up just for me regarding conduct and guests. Again, he had his harem, and I had to run casual acquaintances through him for “approval”. (I’m sure you can all guess what his answer always was…) His reasoning, if one can call it that, was that boring old “Anything That Moves” trope. He was convinced that my orientation meant that I would automatically want multiple partners. (I think that “reasoning” was a mesa-sized projection on his part.) So, I have my issues, yeah, and the poly thing just ain’t my bag.
     
    Did I mention his friends were homeless, and of the three that crashed on MY floor, two were drug dealers. I have no problem with drug dealers or the homeless — I’ve met some really interesting people just by circling up to smoke a bowl — but… come on, cramming a total of five people into a tiny little studio apartment? I was reduced to crawling because there was no room for my wheelchair.
     
    Sex… many times it was more “rape” than “sex”. I submitted to his advances many times when I wanted nothing more than to be a world away from him. Vaginal rape is unpleasant enough. Anal rape… it’s not necessarily “worse than” vaginal rape, it’s just different. And a lot more painful. He would even force me to “service” him orally.
     
    He was convinced that he was absolutely 100% Grade-A Certified “Always Right”, often despite reams and reams of evidence to the contrary. Dispute what he determined was Right, get smacked around. Didn’t stop me from trying, definitely didn’t stop him from reminding me… with his fists.
     
    He absolutely believed every word out of Jack Chick’s vile “comic books”, hated Catholics, denied evolution, the whole nine yards. Dragged me to see the world’s most expensive snuff film (“The Passion of the Christ”). Whinged about having to read subtitles (uh… it’s in aramaic and latin, it needs subtitles!) Forced me to go to a church of his choosing (evangelical “four-square” church) because the churches I chose were “too liberal”.
     
    He had some of the worst double standards in play, too. If he wanted to stay up all night gaming, with the volume cranked up loud enough to bother the neighbors, it was bloody well his “right” to do it, regardless of others’ needs. Gods forbid I ever wake him up or keep him awake or want to play or watch something other than whatever he’s fixating on. Oh, and you can forget about asking him to turn the volume down or use headphones — “But I can’t hear it!” and “But they’re annoying!” being the respective responses. He slept whenever, slept in however late he felt like it, but wouldn’t allow me more than five or six hours a night. On a good night.
     
    He had to be in control of everything. The temperature of my shower, the contents of my fridge and freezer (a lot of which went to waste because someone was too lazy to put things away when he was finished), what I wore, what I ate, every. goddamn. thing had to meet his approval. I wasn’t allowed to “waste money” on things I enjoyed, I was to pay all the bills, and manage all the finances and the food budget (the latter being totally shot because of his picky eating). His money? Oh, his money disappeared the day it came in, usually wasted on some expensive thing we didn’t need or some new toy for him or a whole lot of weed (like, enough to last a month, and he’d go through it in, like, a week and a half). Oh, and a few packs of smokes, enough for a week, but guess who ended up supporting his habits? Yep. Me. More money down the drain, when he never spent one single, solitary cent on household needs. My money was “ours”, his money was “his”.
     
    He has a list of diagnoses. Diagnoses that require medication. Medication that he refuses to take. Untreated bipolar disorder, combined with some kind of psychosis, and a refusal to follow instructions? Very. Bad. Thing.
     
    He was totally convinced that he’s a werewolf, that there really are “hunters” or “slayers”, and that the Vatican was “out to get him” because he “knows stuff”. *eyetwitch* Yeah. Dead serious. Did I mention the refusal to take meds per doctor’s instructions?
     
    Okay, really shutting up this time. I swear. See? Pushing “Post”…

  170. 670
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    WMDKitty,

    I am so sorry you went through all that. *hugs*

  171. 671
    Inaji

    Ednaz, I’m glad you liked my post. Thank you.

  172. 672
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    There are parts of it I can laugh at a bit, now. There are also a lot of things I did, agreed to, and put up with that I’m really not proud of. But you do what you gotta do to stay alive, you know?

    I don’t get it, though. What the ever-loving fuck makes a person want or need to control others to that degree? What the fuck was going on in his head that made him treat me like that?

    Did he pick me because I’m disabled, and therefore less likely to be able to put up a fight?

    Why would the police — invariably male — take his side and tell me to “shut up and stop provoking him”? Why is it that when I tried to report the abuse, I was told, “we can’t help you”? Why is HUD rejecting me after I’ve jumped through every. last. hoop. to get back on the list? Is it at all legal to refuse to rent to someone over a “bad rental history” that came about due to domestic violence? Because if it’s not legal… I know a couple of lawyers.

  173. 673
    opposablethumbs

    Tony, here are ALL THE HUGS. Seriously, the more I read of you the more I think you’re good people and good company, exceptionally interesting, perceptive, eloquent, thought-provoking, and with empathy and integrity off the scale. You are one of the Pharyngulites I would most love to meet. Also, I am keeping tentacles crossed for you. (oh, and I like Buffy too (especially the humour (and especially Spike))).
    .
    Nutmeg – you like A Wrinkle in Time! Yay! I thought it had been forgotten … so that makes me happy.
    .
    Giliell, it’s a great word! Please don’t purge any essences ;-).

  174. 674
    John Morales

    WMDKitty, ack! That is an appalling story.

  175. 675
    Inaji

    Opposablethumbs:

    you like A Wrinkle in Time! Yay! I thought it had been forgotten … so that makes me happy.

    Oh, not at all forgotten. I have the whole series and I love those books, even with the outright xian message in them.

  176. 676
    rq

    *massive hugs* for Tony;
    *scritchescritchescritches* for WMDKitty, if wanted (*hugs* are available, too).

    carlie re: name popularity
    That’s the first time I’ve seen them include various spellings under the same name. I’ve only ever seen (for example) Christal and Krystal as two separate names in these popularity lists, which always seemed a bit odd, considering.

  177. 677
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    Holy fuck, it feels good to get that out.

    The worst of the abuse was the sheer mindfuckery of it all. Making me believe that I was going crazy. Big things, little things, he’d make up whole conversations and events that never happened and insist that yes, they had. He had me convinced that I was losing my mind and imagining things and blowing things out of proportion and rationalizing and justifying his actions, doing half his work for him!

    Fuck, he even had the cops taking his side and telling me not to be so hysterical and to stop provoking him!

    And he killed my creativity. I want my creativity back. I really, really, really want my creativity back. I miss writing. I miss drawing. I miss being able to make whole worlds in the span of a week. Everything I come up with now has been done to death (twice, even!) and/or is totally based on already-existing (fictional) worlds and locations. Everything is cliched. And I hate it. And I somehow lost all artistic ability, and cannot even draw a simple stick figure any more.

  178. 678
    carlie

    Alethea, hi! Nothing to say, just wanted to wave at you a bit. *waves*

    WMDKitty, sounds like an awful lot to work through. I’m so sorry you went through that.

    Tony – I’m another one who is married to a Christian. Not just a wishy-washy one – mine teaches Sunday school and organizes activities and his best friends are homeschoolers because Christianity and the church is fundamentalist. This is because I was also one when we married, but we’ve managed to work things out into a decent cease-fire on that subject. And we respect each other’s opinions and intelligence and knowledge on other things, and it’s working pretty well.

  179. 679
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    I am feeling incredibly good right now. I mean, as cliched as it is, I feel like a weight has been lifted off my chest and shoulders. I feel oddly light.

    This is a weird feeling. Not one I’m used to at all. And I’m positive it’s not the weed. Huh. I don’t even know what to do with myself right now!

  180. 680
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    WMDKitty,

    :)
    Yay!

  181. 681
    richardh

    inthelemonlight
    True, but the immediate association for anyone British over a certain age wouldn’t be an obscure Latin word (unless they’d had a public-school education, of course). In the days before TV, every British household had a Compendium of Games containing assorted counters, dice, cards, and a set of double-sided boards for playing draughts/checkers, Snakes&Ladders, somethingIforgetWhichMightHaveBeenChineseCheckers, and Ludo.
    (for an idea of the atmosphere, see TVTropes on The Fifties)

  182. 682
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    WMDKitty:

    Careful hugs. I am so sorry you were put through that.

    Holy fuck, it feels good to get that out.

    It did/does for me, too.

  183. 683
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    Dear gods women, you have it tough.

    I dunno if it was mentioned, and I’m not gonna search for it cause work, but apparently Buzzfeed put up a post of the least flattering pictures of Beyonce at the Super Bowl Halftime show.

    If you’re a woman, it doesn’t matter how beautiful you are by anyone’s standards, you’ll still be made fun of if you’re not perfect every single step of every single day.

  184. 684
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Katherine Lorraine:

    But haven’t we been told, in multiple threads, that objectification of women is a myth?

  185. 685
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Ogvorbis:

    By gum you’re right!

  186. 686
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    So, please hope that my car only has burnt fuse
    If not I’m in trouble

    WMDKitty
    Shit that’s horrible.
    I’m glad that writing it helped.

  187. 687
    opposablethumbs

    Oh, not at all forgotten. I have the whole series and I love those books, even with the outright xian message in them.

    Must have gone right past me when I read AWIT, I guess, as I had no memory of any xtian stuff going on at all! Mind you, I’m one of the lucky ones who grew up without any religious nonsense going on at home (though it was there in school) so that may have helped make me oblivious to it at the time.

  188. 688
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Giliell:

    Crossing fingers and toes (well, those are always crossed) that you have blown your fuse.

  189. 689
    Inaji

    Opposablethumbs:

    Must have gone right past me when I read AWIT, I guess, as I had no memory of any xtian stuff going on at all!

    It’s pretty hard to miss, with references to god, Jesus, angels and prayer. From the pffffft:

    Madeleine L’Engle’s fantasy works are in part highly expressive of her Christian viewpoint in a manner somewhat similar to that of Christian fantasy writer C.S. Lewis[citation needed]. She was herself the official writer-in-residence at New York City’s Episcopal Cathedral of St. John the Divine, which is known for its prominent position in the liberal wing of the Episcopal Church. L’Engle’s liberal Christianity has been the target of criticism from more conservative Christians, especially with respect to certain elements of A Wrinkle in Time.

    The novel contains several references to Biblical verses (in addition to quotes from various famous philosophers, poets, and playwrights). The most well-known of these is a quote from 1st Corinthians from which the book’s final chapter derives its title. Mrs Who advises Meg, “The foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called, but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty….” —1 Corinthians 1:25–28

    Another major Biblical reference is the hymn of praise sung by the centaur-like beings on the planet Uriel which translates to a very close paraphrase of lines from Isaiah and the Psalms “Sing unto the Lord a new song, and His praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein”; similarly, the alien that Meg calls ‘Aunt Beast’ quotes a line (without attribution) from Paul’s Epistle to the Romans concerning being called and justified according to God’s purpose, another line from the same is earlier cited by Meg’s father.

    The theme of picturing the fight of good against evil as a battle of light and darkness is a recurring one. It is manner reminiscent of the prologue to the Gospel of John which is also quoted once. When the “Mrs Ws” reveal their secret roles in the cosmic fight against “the darkness” they ask the children to name some figures on Earth (a partially dark planet) who fight the darkness. They name Jesus, and later in the discussion Buddha is named as well, along with various creative artists and philanthropists. The three women are described as ancient star-beings who act as guardian angels.

  190. 690
    chigau (違う)

    Good morning.
    Gotta run.
    Have a nice day.

  191. 691
    strange gods before me ॐ

    inthelemonlight,

    2:48. Which is, uh, kind of disturbing given that I learned to play yesterday…

    Aaaarrrgh!

    Okay, I’m going to warm up before I play today.

    Bizarre tangent: a couple days ago I had the word prosopagnosia stuck in my head (I am a fan of Antonio Damasio) but I couldn’t remember what it meant. Today I count myself lucky to be an atheist; a decade ago I might have wasted time wondering what does this coincidence mean?

    +++++
    Giliell,

    And somebody remind me to purge the word “essence” from my vocabulary. Jesus fucking Christ

    Why? What’s wrong with it?

  192. 692
    strange gods before me ॐ

    *hands chigau a coffee on her way out the door*

    Careful! It’s really hot.

  193. 693
    Inaji

    SG:

    Why? What’s wrong with it?

    The ensuing fuss after her casual remark using it.

  194. 694
    opposablethumbs

    Wow. That’s one childhood memory turned on its head all right. I know it’s been a lot of years, but all I remembered was a feeling that there were clever and resourceful children and a tesseract and an adventure (and Aunt Beast) and they got home again safely … and, um, rescued their dad?

    I honestly don’t remember the xtian themes, so I must have either skipped over them as unimportant or irrelevant or – possibly more likely – just mentally backgrounded most of it as “high-fantasy-style stuff to do with aliens”

  195. 695
    strange gods before me ॐ

    The ensuing fuss after her casual remark using it.

    That statement is as vague as Giliell’s — which is why I’m asking Giliell.

  196. 696
    birgerjohansson

    Dallilama
    “It is when one is in the throes of major depression, yes.”

    I have also experienced that depression can result in even trivial chores becoming almost like setting off to climb Mount Everest. Apathy, anxiety, a lot of stuff getting in the way.
    — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
    Lie After Lie After Lie: What Colin Powell Knew Ten Years Ago Today and What He Said http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-schwarz/colin-powell-wmd-iraq-war_b_2624620.html
    Comment: “Clearly, Powell’s loyalty to George Bush extended to being willing to deceive the world: the United Nations, Americans, and the coalition troops about to be sent to kill and die in Iraq. He’s never been held accountable for his actions, and it’s extremely unlikely he ever will be”
    — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
    Researcher uncovers hidden facts of Israeli-Palestinian water politics http://phys.org/news/2013-02-uncovers-hidden-facts-israeli-palestinian-politics.html
    — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
    Ann Coulter To Obama: ‘Screw You’ Over Gun Control Remarks (VIDEO) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/05/ann-coulter-obama-gun-control_n_2622217.html
    — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
    Miami-Dade Police Kendall Squad Caught Ignoring Emergency Calls, Shopping On Camera (VIDEO) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/05/miami-dade-police-squad-caught-kendall_n_2621924.html
    — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
    Brain activity study lends insight into schizophrenia http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-01-brain-insight-schizophrenia.html an objective marker for schizophrenia

  197. 697
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Hi.

    Back from the Dominican Republic. The people there, at least the one’s I met, some of the friendliest people I’ve met anywhere.

    And fun. They like to party.

  198. 698
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    one’s?

    wtf

  199. 699
  200. 700
    Inaji

    Welcome back, Rev! Glad you had a good time.

  201. 701
    carlie

    I honestly don’t remember the xtian themes, so I must have either skipped over them as unimportant or irrelevant or – possibly more likely – just mentally backgrounded most of it as “high-fantasy-style stuff to do with aliens”

    Probably. A lot of it is the same kind of “code talking” that GWBush used to do. It sounds like normal everyday things unless you know the code. If I throw in a reference to a city on a hill when I’m talking about being inspirational it just sounds a little poetic unless you recognize the verse it came from, in which case you receive the information that it’s not just an allusion I’ve drawn to a work of literature, but that I know the Bible, I have been steeped enough in the same religion as you to make references that you will recognize, etc. There are Biblical allusions all over the place in L’Engle. If you read the whole trilogy, A Swiftly Tilting Planet is the most blatant, and then there’s a fourth book after that, sometimes included as part of the “set”, that goes all in and has the twins back in time dealing with Noah’s family and the flood. Her adult novels aren’t nearly so anvilicious (and are quite more racy!).

  202. 702
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Hello’s Rev’s. Good’s to’s have’s you’s back’s.

    Seriously, welcome back.

  203. 703
    Portia

    Good morning Lounge!

    Whoever sent this cold my way can have it back now. Thanks in advance.

  204. 704
    dianne

    Whoever sent this cold my way

    Viral illness or low air temperature?

  205. 705
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    WMDKitty… I’ve got a second warehouse(not 13!) of hugs for you if you want them.

  206. 706
    Portia

    Dianne,

    Ha, illness. It’s actually going to get up to 40°F today!

  207. 707
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Portia:

    You have my sympathy. Colds are, in my useless opinion, the worst of all possible viral inflictions. They feel like they last far longer than they do. They lead to shitty complications. And they are seldom bad enough to put you in bed for three or four days so you end up working, or doing other things that need to be done, rather than collapsing in a whimpering ball of illness.

    That said, I hope you have a speedy recovery, no complications, and can hide in bed for a few days. If not, erm, can I offer you chicken soup? Mucinex (or your local equivalent)? Vapo-rub? Wasabi?

  208. 708
    Portia

    Thanks for the sympathy, Og. I could really go for some brothy chicken soup. thanks : )

  209. 709
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    ::searches through cabinet. Finds and heats up a can of chicken noodle soup. Gives to stork. Stork drops off package on Portia’s doorstep. Please enjoy and get well::
    ****
    Amblebury:
    I do believe you were right. I just slept 10 hours and I feel rejuvenated.
    ****
    Opposablethumbs @673:
    I just woke up. I can’t cry right now. Yet I am (joyful tears, in contrast to last nights). Thank you. That was one of the nicest things I have ever been told.
    ****
    Ednaz:
    Thank you for the incredibly kind words. Between you and opposablethumbs…the kindness is very much appreciated.
    ****
    As for hugs, we may need to restock Joe’s warehouse.
    ****
    IJoe:
    How cool would it be if there was an actual Warehouse 13?

  210. 710
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    ednaz@661:
    Why do you feel awkward? You are very much a part of The Fellowship of the Lounge. Your contributions and commentary are always welcome.
    ****

    WMDKitty:
    I am glad you were able to get that off your chest and I am so sorry for the horrible abuse you went through.

  211. 711
    george3

    strangegodsbeforeme
    @537. Thanks, that explains a lot. Moderated. Did not realise, hence multi-posts. Thought the ants in my laptop were playing up again. Sorry to all who found it annoying.

    inthelemonlight
    @622. Thanks for the link. Funny.

    Allthebest to you all,
    G

  212. 712
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Hey, the car magically repaired itself while I was at home.
    So, off to work in a minute or so…

    +++

    Why? What’s wrong with it?</blockquote

    The ensuing fuss after her casual remark using it.

    Wouldn’t have seen it if Caine had’t quoted it, but yeah, what Caine said. That’s about as clear as it gets…

  213. 713
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Tony, speaking of the Warehouse….

    If you want a real laugh, hunt down a little odd “gem” called Friday the 13th: The Series. Seriously…

    Get well Portia! May I suggest a little hot sauce in the soup? I always appreciate the sinus-clearing properties of spicy foods when I’m sick.

    I’m feeling a little weird this week. I burned dinner last night, for one thing. And I’m feeling really kind of down on myself. I might just be depressed, but I also blame myself for being lazy… even though lack of motivation is a sign of depression. Blegh.

  214. 714
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Wouldn’t have seen it if Caine had’t quoted it, but yeah, what Caine said. That’s about as clear as it gets…

    Yeah, right.

    Except there was no “fuss” about the word itself. And your dismissal of the actual discussion with “Jesus fucking Christ”, like it was thoroughly unimportant, amounts to petty sniping by you, Giliell.

  215. 715
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    IJoe:
    Oh I have watched that show. In fact, when it first aired I watched it regularly. I haven’t seen every episode, but I really liked the concept.
    That also reminds me that I also watched the War of the Worlds tv series around the same time.
    ****
    Giliell:
    Keep essence. Tis a good word. :)
    (Glad your car decided to work)

  216. 716
    cicely

    He has bucked the trend. He is continuing to chat with me. Huh.

    A hopeful sign!
    :) :) :)
    -

    Sounds to me that you and A have a fair bit in common, and those things may well outweigh the atheist/theist problem.

    I approve this statement.
    :)
    -

    Something I was thinking about today…what gave PZ the idea to create TET in the first place?

    It was the proto-Horde’s immune-response to a particularly festering creationist’s presence in the proto-Endless Thread….
    -
    WMDKitty: *scritches* Sounds like this guy is definitely something you wouldn’t want to get stuck to the bottom of your shoe.

    I don’t get it, though. What the ever-loving fuck makes a person want or need to control others to that degree? What the fuck was going on in his head that made him treat me like that?

    Two words: Power. Trip.

    Did he pick me because I’m disabled, and therefore less likely to be able to put up a fight?

    Quite possibly. “Fish in a barrel”.
    -

    you like A Wrinkle in Time! Yay! I thought it had been forgotten … so that makes me happy.

    Oh, not at all forgotten. I have the whole series and I love those books, even with the outright xian message in them.

    Me, too! And if that makes me a Bad Atheist, it’s nice to know I have company!
    :)
    -

    Must have gone right past me when I read AWIT, I guess, as I had no memory of any xtian stuff going on at all!

    It’s more blatant in some of the sequels—Many Waters struck me as being the most blatant. Still an enjoyable story, though.
    -

  217. 717
    george3

    Do any of you remember
    Time Tunnel
    ?
    G.

  218. 718
    cicely

    iJoe: *hugs*, and remember that Depression Lies.
    -

  219. 719
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    iJoe: *hugs*, and remember that Depression Lies.

    And the lies that depression tells are so easy to believe because depression knows just where your blind spots and weak spots lie.

    Hugs and virtual support to iJoe. You really are good people.

  220. 720
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Tony, why are Warehouse 13 and Friday the 13th: The Series are THE EXACT SAME SHOW? Because I want to write a show for TV about a bunch of commandos on the run from the Army Marines accused of a crime they didn’t commit, and doing good deeds for cash around America. There will be a cigar pipe smoking leader named Hannibal Alexander, a smarmy handsome con man really attractive woman who tricks men with her looks, a mentally-ill pilot stunt driver with PTSD, and Mr. T Mr. T.

    I’ll call it… The Alpha Squad!

    Cicely, thanks for the reminder. You folks are really helping with my depression. Not that I don’t feel depressed an awful lot, but I’m learning to not beat myself up about it quite so much. The difference between depression and despair is that I know that the depression is my very real brain chemistry fucking with me in a very real way, and the despair is based on my brain misinterpreting the world in half-true or exaggerated ways. The depression comes and goes, but if I give in to the despair it sticks around and fucks with my self-esteem. I don’t expect the depression to ever completely go away, but if I can shake the despair and self-esteem issues I can treat it like I treat my chronic pain issues… accept that it will slow me down sometimes, but also know that I have good days too and I can take advantage of them

  221. 721
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Does anyone have a virtual bottle of WhiteOut? I suppose _strike_ will do nicely in lieu of WhiteOut.

    Colds are, in my useless opinion…

    Oggie:
    Your opinions are not useless. They are quite welcome and are valued.
    ****
    IJoe:
    I second/third the comments made by others: depression lies. Be well my friend.

  222. 722
    Pteryxx

    *leaves anklehugs for Ogvorbis, iJoe, Caine, and whoever else needs a few* *plus some drawing pencils for WMDKitty*

    *goes outside*

  223. 723
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    WMDkitty
    *hugs* I’m sorry you were treated that way.

    Portia
    I’m in week two of a cold that just won’t go away, I feel for you.

    ijoe

    The difference between depression and despair is that I know that the depression is my very real brain chemistry fucking with me in a very real way, and the despair is based on my brain misinterpreting the world in half-true or exaggerated ways. The depression comes and goes, but if I give in to the despair it sticks around and fucks with my self-esteem.

    QFT.

    I haven’t read any of the books or seen any of the shows you folks are discussing atm, but from the Whedonverse I gotta say I’m a Browncoat.

  224. 724
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Hugs back at you Oggie. That means a lot coming from you.

  225. 725
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Joe,

    Depression is a mean liar.

    Ogvorbis,

    Gah, stay here rather than on Thunderdome right now. I hope the conversation didn’t trigger you too much.

  226. 726
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    IJoe:
    You may want to tweak the description of the woman for your hypothetical show. It plays into one of the sexist stereotypes of women using their feminine wiles to get what they want.

    (Of course now that I think of it, she could be a feminist aware of that trope who uses it to her advantage, for some greater purpose.)

  227. 727
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    george3:
    I have never heard of Time Tunnel.
    ****
    Dalillama:
    Browncoat? Firefly?

  228. 728
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Tony:
    Don’t get me wrong, Buffy was a good show, but still.

  229. 729
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Thanks Tony, Pteryxx, and Dalillama… and my wife is the Browncoat of the family.

    Oddly, I’ve never seen Buffy. I got bored after the first few episodes, and I’m sure it got better but I’m not convinced that I’d care.

    Outside is nice. I’ve taken to sitting outside for a few minutes a couple of times a day and just letting the sun hit my face, on top of taking walks with my dog when I have the energy. That and holding Formerly Office Kitty… I’m trying to teach her that it is OK to be loved and be affectionate back. She’s got some serious abandonment issues that I wasn’t really prepared to address, but now that she’s roaming the house I figure I have to deal with it.

  230. 730
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Tony… gah. You apparently missed the joke entirely. I am now sad, because I worked so hard in crafting it.

  231. 731
    cicely

    And the lies that depression tells are so easy to believe because depression knows just where your blind spots and weak spots lie.

    Yep. Like any other hell, it’s all very personalized.
    -

  232. 732
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    So I think I decided the setting of my next series is going to be thus:

    300 years after the first book, the tallis (steampunk dragons) have linked the cities of Dragon’s Throat (a port and mining city in the southern continent) and Wivverin (a desert town) by the use of a new steam engine. This starts up the Age of Steam, linking magic and technology together to create fantastic machines.

    I’ve got an idea kind of around a high-profile kidnapping on a train… but haven’t banged out the idea yet.

  233. 733
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    *hugs* to Ogvorbis too; I just caught up over in TDome.

  234. 734
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Ogvorbis:
    I am sorry if you were triggered in the Dome. Perhaps you should hang out here with us in the Lounge…?

  235. 735
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    IJoe:
    D’oh!
    Now I get it.
    Sheesh. That took too long to get. I am slipping.

  236. 736
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    IJoe:
    (I just realized, given your military background, adding a ‘G’ to IJoe would be somewhat fitting):
    I do not blame you for not getting into the first Season of Buffy. What hooked me was the second season. I remember watching reruns on FX. The first episide I saw in full was, IIRC, the ep after Buffy and Angel had sex and he…changed. The metaphor was quite well done.
    Even appreciating the later seasons, I find the first still doesn’t excite me. It is necessary to get the show up and running, but it is the weakest, IMO.

  237. 737
    David Marjanović

    Paraffin immunohisochemistry is also immunohistochemistry.

    That is, completely unsuited to cells grown in vitro.

    *facepalm* X-)

  238. 738
    george3

    Tony the Dancing Telegram Queer Shoop
    @727
    Time Tunnel: Mid/Late 60′s sf US import to UK tv, so do’nt know when it first aired.
    Plot: We have built a tunnel to travel in time, lets test it out before it is ready……….

    Can’t get home! Pannic! Various jumping about in time. You get the picture.

    Just remembered, I think it may have been on tv as a double bill with “Land of the Giants”.
    G

  239. 739
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    [whining]
    So, this seems to be the time of messed up appointments. Ad electronic messenging systems hate me.
    Last week I was at he right place at the wrong time (my fault). Yesterday I was waiting for my Bulgarian counterpart to call me, ’cause somehow I thought that if he says “any day after 6 pm” and I say “how ’bout Tuesday at 9pm” and he adds me on Skype and doesn’t reply he agrees but it turns out he never got that mail. And today I went to work only to find out that my last confirmation message didn’t post and my student didn’t want to bother me ’cause she knows that my mum is ill and thought I had other things to do.
    And with all that shit my eating disorder is flaming up again. Hope I get that back under control once the term is finished.
    [/whining]

    SG

    Except there was no “fuss” about the word itself. And your dismissal of the actual discussion with “Jesus fucking Christ”, like it was thoroughly unimportant, amounts to petty sniping by you, Giliell.

    Yeah, I know, I’m mean. That’s why I also had you on killfile. Thanks for reminding me, bye.

  240. 740
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Took you long enough Tony, but I forgive you. *grins*

    Starting dinner at 12:30 local time for an Estimated Eating Time of 7:00. Yikes. Making a modified shepherd’s pie, since I don’t have any ramekins(correcting THAT mistake on Friday!) I’ll be scooping the meat into little bowls and then putting the potatoes on top with a PASTRY BAG! and then dusting it with paprika. That and a marinated zucchini salad on the side and I get to feel like a gourmet chef tonight.

  241. 741
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Bad news for Buffy fans. Robin Sachs (Ethan Rayne) has died.
     
    I hate the electric company. Their website won’t work for me, their automated phone payment system keeps sending me to a representative, and the reps can’t take my payment.

  242. 742
    cicely

    Giliell: *hugs* Electronic messaging systems are capricious, at best. Nothing quite like pulling into the driveway and just then getting the text—sent three days previously—cancelling that game session.
    -

    Bad news for Buffy fans. Robin Sachs (Ethan Rayne) has died.

    From the linked article:
    “In 1999, he appeared heavily disguised under layers of heavy make-up as the baddie Sarris in the satirical comedy Galaxy Quest, which co-starred Sigourney Weaver and Alan Rickman.”
    -

  243. 743
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Giliell,

    Yeah, I know, I’m mean. That’s why I also had you on killfile. Thanks for reminding me, bye.

    Right, so you snipe about discussion of heterosexism. For what reason? Any reason other than because I brought it up?

    If you didn’t understand the discussion, and didn’t care because you weren’t sufficiently motivated to read my part of it, why snipe about it?

  244. 744
    Portia

    Tony, I got some french onion soup for lunch and thought of your kind USBsoup-sending : )

    Dalillama: ugh, long ones are the worst. Mine often last 3+ weeks because of immune system deficiencies. Hopefully this one will quit sooner, I’ve had it since Saturday and it doesn’t seem to be the worst I’ve ever had.

    ====

    I have to do a new client intake in 2 minutes and my head is aching worse and worse. blarg. It’s a whiny day for me, I guess.

  245. 745
    Parrowing

    Hello!

    I had to avoid the Lounge (as well as Facebook, news sites, etc.) until last night because I did not want to be spoiled over the Super Bowl… I’m not a big sports watcher, but I enjoy watching bigger events to a certain extent. The streams tend to be crap, plus I decided that this year I did not want to stay up until 5 am watching it. So download it is, and that took all of Monday. I finished watching it after midnight yesterday and today was my catch up on the Lounge day. So now I know that option needs to be adjusted for next year, somehow. Or maybe I should just stop watching it. No big loss.

    Hugs and smiles and fist bumps and “yay!”s to anyone who needed/needs them. Especially Portia, WMDKitty, Ogvorbis, iJoe, and Tony (Please don’t feel bad if I didn’t mention you here; I just read through over 500 comments and I’m having trouble remembering who said what.)

  246. 746
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    parrowing:
    I don’t actually recall anyone discussing the outcome, so you’re probably safe on that front.

  247. 747
    Parrowing

    Dalillama:

    There was actually one comment with spoilers, but I could see it coming and stopped scrolling just before. It’s all good though, for I am caught up with both the game and the Lounge. Finally! :D

  248. 748
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Deepak Chopra on Atheists

    #Atheists are the embarrassment relying on obsolete science.

  249. 749
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Wow, Deepak Chopra is a delusional moron. I wish he’d come to the ‘Dome!

  250. 750
    strange gods before me ॐ

    He isn’t delusional. Rather, he is not strongly interested in determining what is true, and he is socially rewarded for repeating a set of widely-held beliefs.

  251. 751
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Science is obsolete. Good to know. I was never under the illusion that Deepak Chopra held any regard for science, but I didn’t think he’d diss it quite so obviously. After all, he relies quite heavily on using the name (if no actual content) of quantum physics in order to make his shit more palatable.

  252. 752
    rq

    The day he comes to the ‘Dome, I will make huge amounts of popcorn and prepare to stay late (or come early).

  253. 753
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    rq,

    The day he comes to the ‘Dome, I will make huge amounts of popcorn and prepare to stay late (or come early).

    Me too.

  254. 754
    rq

    Oh, and I saw a book on quantum psychology in the bookstore the other day. I was tempted to buy it just for the laughs.

  255. 755
    strange gods before me ॐ

    I believe what he means by “obsolete science” is “science with insufficient quantums”.

  256. 756
    David Marjanović

    Folks! The education minister of Germany has been found guilty of plagiarism in her PhD thesis, so the university of Düsseldorf revoked her degree! What does she do? Not only doesn’t she step back, she wants to sue! :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

    Imagine a spherical gay man…

    Why?

    Because the part you commented with “Aside from that” is the very point.

    I am confused about your confusion. I was hoarding the loans in case of emergency, but ideally I would have wanted to dump them back untouched (or replenished) onto the loan provider the moment I graduate, thus effectively meaning I wouldn’t be in debt.

    Oh, that’s the part I didn’t get. Socialist paradise here has prevented me from becoming familiar with the very concept. :-)

    And then stuff happened, and now I’m $7000 in actual debt, as in money I don’t have but that I’ll have to repay eventually anyway.

    …I’m sure the Horde Hoard can contribute.

    Esteleth, OH NO, ZEBRAFISH ABORTION IN MORDOR

    Brilliant!

    Seconded!

    Showering is hard?

    <boggle>

    Yes, because it requires interrupting something and beginning something else. Even going to bed is hard that way.

    Hugs are accepted and reciprocated exponentially.

    awwww :-}

    *beep beep beep* *Portia backs up dumptruck full of hugs for Tony*

    ♥ *extra hugs for both of you, and for mythbri*

    *very careful hugs for WMDKitty*

    ! Now that’s serious stuff.

    Exactly.

    During the age of chivalry, yes, it was. Knights were openly emotional, in the sense they showed affection (primarily for their fellow men, but it was still good) and felt no shame whatsoever in crying.

    There was political crying in those days, adding emphasis to requests for action as well as to politically motivated apologies.

    I assume hugs are fungible?

    *harvests the fungi from the hugs, gets a pan going*

    Sometimes, you know, you’re awesome. :-) :-) :-)

    It was a particularly noisy and prolific creationist who was all over the place in threads, and one thread in particular which was reaching quite the length, but the commentariat protested when PZ made noise about closing the thread, so he opened up the first instance of TET, for the purpose of having a dedicated thread for arguing with said person. It evolved from there.

    And we kept arguing with said person and his sidekick for about half a year, and then PZ banned him, and the thread just kept going. It’s alive! IT’S ALIIIIIIIVE!!!

    I’ve only ever seen (for example) Christal and Krystal as two separate names in these popularity lists, which always seemed a bit odd, considering.

    I think what’s going on here is Americans, for decades now, mixing two very different things. One is Christl, a nickname for Christina/Christine/Christa where I come from. The other is “crystal” as part of the English tradition of gem names like Ruby (see also Opal), completely absent from German-speaking places, where, furthermore, Kristall is stressed on the last syllable and contains a loud & clear [a].

    *hugs for Ogvorbis*

  257. 757
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    A and I are chatting. Just found out that he crochets as a way to deal with ADHD. He learned to crochet from YouTube videos. Neat.

  258. 758
    strange gods before me ॐ

    For example

    Nietzsche, in The Gay Science, declared that God is dead.

    This is obsolete science.

    God is in a quantum superposition of being both alive and dead, until he is observed.

  259. 759
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Thanks for the support. I could feel it coming but thought I was strong enough to deal with where things were going. I was wrong (big surprise). Too weak to deal with certain things. Sorry.

  260. 760
    ednaz

    Tony @ 710 – That brought tears to my eyes. Thank You! I saved it so I will remember. : )

  261. 761
    ednaz

    strange gods before me ॐ

    I believe what he means by “obsolete science” is “science with insufficient quantums”.

    -
    That made me think of the quantum thread. That was a trip. : )

  262. 762
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    God is in a quantum superposition of being both alive and dead, until he is observed.

    :)
    —–

    I enjoyed quantum thread a lot.
    Hmmm… what would a quantum alot look like?

  263. 763
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    ednaz: you are quite welcome
    ****
    Ogvorbis:
    I do not know if you are still following the Dome, but Paul has apologized to you.
    ****
    The quantum thread was quite fun. Hmmm quantum queer shoop has a nice ring…

  264. 764
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    ogvorbis
    Nothing to apologize for, my friend. It’s not your responsibility to take shit from every asshole who comes along. You do what’s best for you first.

  265. 765
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    David

    Folks! The education minister of Germany has been found guilty of plagiarism in her PhD thesis, so the university of Düsseldorf revoked her degree! What does she do? Not only doesn’t she step back, she wants to sue!

    Well, I guess there are going to be a lot more skeletons in closets. People like Schavan who wrote their stuff in the 80′s never thought there would be the possibility to compare their works with thousands of books within a few minutes. Tough luck.
    The only reason why I don’t think that von und zu Guttenberg should have know better is because I don’t think that he wrote the crap himself.

  266. 766
    ednaz

    There is a man who is kind compassionate thoughtful brilliant, and always ready to lend an ear or shoulder.
    He fights the good fight for those who cannot.

    He encourages others, is devoted to his wife, cares for the dog and the cats, and is always, ALWAYS interesting.
    His honesty and vulnerabilty sent out across the Internet helped a stranger half way across the country feel a little less alone.
    -
    I do not know his name.
    I call him IJoe.
    -

    If he is ever temporarily unsure of his worth or his contribution to the world, I hope he will read the above and be assured once again.

  267. 767
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    I dare say that my monetary problems may soon be diminished some. My boss told me she spoke with accounting and they agreed to increase my hourly rate (in large part because they like my work ethic). This is before the first paycheck! Hopefully that means soon I will not have to ask my parents for financial support, get my cable and internet turned back on, and start paying off some unpaid debts.

  268. 768
    Parrowing

    That’s great, Tony! Congratulations!

  269. 769
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    ednaz @766
    Your ability to induce spontaneous tears of joy through your thoughtful words has struck again. What you just said to Joe was truly amazing.
    I agree with every word.

  270. 770
    Tethys

    Orgvorbis

    Too weak to deal with certain things. Sorry.

    *hug*

    Og, feeling pain when being stomped on by hob-nailed boots does not make you weak, it means you have a fully functional central nervous system.

    Pauls words hurt a lot of us, not because it isn’t something we haven’t heard before, but because it is especially painful to have people you respect spout rape apologia, and then become all upsetty when you tell them to get the fuck off your foot.

  271. 771
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Jeez ednaz… wow. Thanks for saying, it means a lot. I’m a little choked up, tell the truth.

    Maybe I come close to some of that on my best days… and where I’m helpful to anyone here, it is because you’re all worth me rising above myself and trying a little harder to be a decent person. That, and I’m just trying to give back what I get here. You’re by and large pretty awesome people, and you’ve helped me out immensely.

  272. 772
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    ogvorbis,

    There’s no weakness in not being able tolerate the intolerable. Not even a little bit.

  273. 773
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    ednaz
    Don’t make me cry before going to bed

    IJoe
    What ednaz said

    Ogvorbis
    (((hugs)))
    Being weak ain’t being a failure.

  274. 774
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Tony
    Yay for a raise.

    ednaz #766
    Thirded (And also a second for Tony’s 769)

  275. 775
    cicely

    Ogvorbis: *hugs*. And *romping kittens*
    -
    Tony: Huzzah! for pay raise.
    -

  276. 776
    David Marjanović

    Loool! Here’s a gallery (with comments in German) of nine German politicians who lost, or in a few cases almost lost, their academic titles for plagiarism in their theses. Only one of them has announced he will write a new one. All of them are conservative (CDU) or libertarian-light (FDP). The most recent case is the federal minister of education.

    Don’t make me cry before going to bed

    *hugs* *dedoctored ministers*

  277. 777
    Parrowing

    I guess I really am as useless as I feel.

  278. 778
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    You OK Parrowing?

  279. 779
    David Marjanović

    Heh. Forgot that it was this thread where I mentioned the still-minister of education.

    *more hugs for Ogvorbis* *happiness tea, too* *and calming manatees*

    A and I are chatting. Just found out that he crochets as a way to deal with ADHD. He learned to crochet from YouTube videos. Neat.

    Understatement. :-)

    This is obsolete science.

    FTW.

    Well, I guess there are going to be a lot more skeletons in closets.

    Seconded.

    The only reason why I don’t think that von und zu Guttenberg should have know better is because I don’t think that he wrote the crap himself.

    Also seconded. There are professional thesis ghostwriters out there who do that shit for a living.

  280. 780
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Parrowing:
    Seconding Joe’s question.
    See this ear? It is listening if you want to share.

  281. 781
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    *Waits impatiently for borked intawebz Knecshun to mend itssself, preciousssss*

    Ednaz, you made me cry, too, because those words were just right.

    *Sends hugs to Ednaz*

    Hugs to all of you awesome people that have made me feel a small part of something great.

    Ogvorbis, what others have said. You aren’t weak by any stretch of the imagination. What Paul said was horrible. Don’t call it weakness, call it tactical withdrawal.

    Also, you are one of my heroes.

    Tony, looks like one step back but three steps forward? I do hope things continue to improve for you. You deserve that, and more.

  282. 782
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Parrowing, what’s wrong?

    *Sends hugs*

  283. 783
    Parrowing

    iJoe:

    You OK Parrowing?

    No. I am feeling invisible and worthless and depressed and every interaction I have confirms that this is an accurate description of myself. I’m probably going to bed so if I don’t continue posting tonight, don’t worry. Thanks to you and Tony for asking. Have a good night, everyone.

  284. 784
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    *hugs* for Parrowing and WMDKitty.

    Parrowing, depression lies.

    WMDKitty, I’m glad venting seems to have helped you feel better. I’m particularly dismayed by the police – yeah, yeah, I know they’re mostly assholes, but surely “beating a cripple” should be too low even for them? No? *sigh*

    With the art, may I suggest baby steps and ‘fake it till you make it’ as an approach? Just be kind and set yourself super low goals. Count just doing anything at all as an achievement. Get the materials set up and do a little bit of totally uncreative technique work. Maybe a sketch of a cat, or an apple on a plate, what’s more old hat? (I am not an artist, choose your own appropriate low goals.) But just doing it should start getting the neurons firing in the old patterns. Repeat for a while. Low expectations are good.

  285. 785
    Parrowing

    And thanks to you too, Tigger

  286. 786
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    *headbonks Parrowing*

    You’re not useless.

  287. 787
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Parrowing
    A little late (damn work), but I am also listening, even when I can’t reply immediately. *hugs* I’ve been there too, and as others said, depression lies. You are a valuable and worthwhile person, no matter what that dark voice is telling you. Among other things, you make the Lounge brighter and better by your presence.

  288. 788
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    It’s not your responsibility to take shit from every asshole who comes along.

    Yeah, but it is still my choice to enter into a conversation such as that. One would think that I was capable of learning, but I keep proving myself wrong.

    spout rape apologia

    I’m not even sure if it was rape apologia. But it did shake me.

    There’s no weakness in not being able tolerate the intolerable.

    and

    Being weak ain’t being a failure.

    and

    Don’t call it weakness, call it tactical withdrawal.

    But my weakness was also entering the conversation and being too stupid to recognize warning signs.

    =====

    Hugs to Parrowing. I know the feeling.

  289. 789
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Parrowing, you’re not invisible or worthless to us, and any time you need us to listen we’re here for you.

  290. 790
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    Oh fuck, there’s so much to address here and I have no time, and no energy.

    iJoe, what ednaz said, in spades.

    Parrowing, you are not invisible, no way, no how. I enjoy your contributions here and would be sad if you disappeared.

    WMDKitty, I’m so sorry about how that asshole treated you. Gaslighting is fucking evil, with a capital fucking. I have had that same response to depression and anxiety, a stifling of creativity. It’s one of the reasons I’m trying to start a musical endeavour with any interested hoarders. I need a push to carry me through the inevitable deadspot that shows up right in the middle of any creative project. The sucking gyre that is my brain telling me that I’m useless again and again leaves me dead in the water no matter how enthusiastic I was at the beginning.

    I’m sitting here with tears in my eyes over all the pain that people are dealing with. Feeling guilty that I can’t address it all, let alone fix any of it. Feeling guilty that I need to dump a little more of my worries here, and knowing that I’m going to do it anyway. I try my best to share the joy in life here and sometimes I fail.

    Yesterday morning Ms. Fishy asked me “How did you sleep last night?” in a rather pointed way. “Not well.” I replied a little puzzled, because I have never in my adult life answered that question with “Just great thanks!”

    She went on to say that she wasn’t surprised.

    For the last year or so I’ve woken up to find that she’s moved to the other room sometime in the night. When I asked about it she said that she wakes up and moves so she could read herself back to sleep without waking me. Yesterday she told me that she wakes up because of my snoring. This is the down side to not being a whinger, some things shouldn’t just be endured. We’ve lived together for almost a decade now, this is the first I’ve heard of this. She’s mentioned my snoring before but always in a mild teasing way.

    She then told me that every 6 to 12 breaths I stop breathing for a few seconds then twitch or turn over and start snoring again. Fucking sleep apnoea. I’ve made an appointment at the GP. Self diagnosis is stupid.

    Here’s the part that’s killing me. I have hope. This could explain a great deal about how I feel, about how hard life gets for me. I have hope; I cannot bear the thought of that hope being dashed.

    Years ago I had ulcerative colitis. One of the questions I asked the specialist was if that could be the cause of my constant fatigue. Of course he said yes, and of course the treatment did nothing for my energy levels. That brief frisson of hope and its subsequent disappointment was the worse part of the treatment. Worse than the year of taking non-steroid anti-inflammatory four times a day, worse even than the colonoscopies.

    And now I have hope, and I sit here with tears in my eyes because I cannot let myself believe in it.

    Sorry folks. I have a funny(ish) story about sheep and a wedding ring that I’ve been meaning to share. Hopefully that’ll make up for the self-pity.

    And I have to go back and check who’s expressed interest in musicing. I’ll get to that soon.

  291. 791
    Amblebury

    WMDkitty What an awful experience – I’m glad recounting the story helped. And I think you’re correct. In many ways, it’s the mind-fuckery of abusive relationships that’s most damaging long-term. You get so removed from reality you no longer know what it looks and feels like. It’s a shame you’re not up to writing, I like your style. It’s kind of gonzo-esque.
    -
    Tony ♫ Oh what a beautiful m-o-o-orning! ♪
    -
    Parrowing I’ve never said hello. Hello! (I’m a bit of a flibbertygibbet, with regard to regular commenting.)
    -

  292. 792
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Shit Parrowing… I was thinking the other day that I miss you on Twitter, if you don’t comment here I’ll be really sad.

  293. 793
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    Amblebury

    Erm, thank you. I just kinda… write the way I think, and go back over not so much to edit as to check grammar and spelling and punctuation.

    I haz no clue; what is this “gonzo” you speak of?

  294. 794
    Portia

    Thanks for all the well-wishes today. I feel like crap, but at least the day is over and I can veg out. I can handle feeling like crap when I’m able to veg out. S is coming over this evening (we’ve spent today and yesterday together, as sometimes it’s more convenient for me to work out of his office and he said that he still wants me to be able to do that). We might talk over our issues more, or we might just veg out. I’m thinking it’ll be vegging, because he’s in a therapy session right now and I can’t imagine he’ll have much emotional energy left. I’m more than ok with that.

    FossilFishy:
    Lotsa hugs for your situation. What a loving partner you have. I’m glad you finally know and hope that you can get relief from what troubles you. More hugs.

    Parrowing:
    You are a wonderful addition to our group, and I really enjoy talking with you every time I get the chance. I hope you wake up feeling refreshed and encouraged. Manymany hugs.

  295. 795
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Parrowing:
    I see you. I am listening. You are not invisible. You are not worthless. You have value. You are a welcome presence here. If you choose to open up, we will listen. We will rejoice in times of happiness. We will show support in times of sorrow. I promise.

    ****
    FossiFishy:
    I hope this knowledge leads to a resolution of your lack of energy. If you cannot find the hope, I have enough to spare.

  296. 796
    birgerjohansson

    “Wednesday + Haiku = Waikuhednesday!” http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/02/06/1184769/-Cheers-and-Jeers-Wednesday
    Excerpt:

    The stupid party
    must stop being so stupid
    flap those wings, piggie

    — — — — — — — — —
    “quantum psychology”
    About assholes who want to gass cats,
    and how to make them less cruel to animals.

  297. 797
    Amblebury

    It’s a style of writing mostly associated with Hunter S. Thompson.

    My interpretation is that it’s a wry, intelligently humorous style, that often implies or includes a hearty “fuck you” to societal mores. There’s more to it than that, but that’s an aspect of it I enjoy.

  298. 798
    Portia

    The stupid party
    must stop being so stupid
    flap those wings, piggie

    Ha! Love it.

  299. 799
    birgerjohansson

    If these guys were in charge of the church, I would actually attend!

    Ghost – Secular Haze http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCLU8q4ZnE4

    (I am an unintentional nationalist. I click on songs I like, and find out they are performed by Swedish bands)

  300. 800
    inthelemonlight

    richardh
    Gotcha. Thanks for filling me in!

    Portia

    And if anyone knows how to combat a recurring eye twitch, let me know, k? Ugh.

    This is just anecdotal, but one time when I had a terrible eye-twitch in my early teens, I lay down and applied pressure to the spot with a finger for twenty minutes straight. Did the trick!

    WMDKitty
    That’s TOTALLY ICKY. I’m so sorry to hear that you’ve gone through all of that. There is never any good excuse for gaslighting. Ugh.

    I’m really glad you’ve (apparently?) gotten out. And knowing you want the creativity back is the first step to reclaiming it!

    SGBM
    Needed well over four minutes today. Regression-towards-the-mean in action!

    Bizarre tangent: a couple days ago I had the word prosopagnosia stuck in my head (I am a fan of Antonio Damasio) but I couldn’t remember what it meant. Today I count myself lucky to be an atheist; a decade ago I might have wasted time wondering what does this coincidence mean?

    http://www.damninteresting.com/the-baader-meinhof-phenomenon/

    Ogvorbis
    I’m not brave enough to venture into the Thunderdome, but I’m really sorry for whatever happened over there!

    FossilFishy
    No need to feel guilty. I hope the sleep-related situation is resolved as straightforwardly as possible!

    Tony
    Yay!

    A and I are chatting. Just found out that he crochets as a way to deal with ADHD. He learned to crochet from YouTube videos. Neat.

    AWESOME. I learned to knit a few years ago while recovering from an illness. I’ve kept it up because it’s creative and geometric and nifty and fun and a way of harnessing the motions of half my fidgety extremities.

    ednaz
    Aww, that was lovely.

    Portia, Dalillama, IJoe, Parrowing, etc.
    Hang in there!

  301. 801
    Portia

    Thanks for the idea, inthelemonlight, I might try that!

    I meant to comment on Tony’s crochet comment, as well, thanks for reminding me.
    I’m teaching myself new knitting skills via youtube video. It’s fun to learn new stuff and challenge myself. I went to the yarn shop today and got the stuff I need to try a new technique. The owner of that shop is really helpful and cool. I actually thought it was great that I had to wait for her to finish nursing her little boy before she could help me with my selections :)

  302. 802
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Thanks to everyone with the well-wishing and kind words.

    I just served my wife this awesome marinated zucchini salad I made for the first time ever, and she’s hugely impressed. Seeing her happy is always a pretty good mood-booster for me. Doesn’t fix the underlying problems, but makes them a little easier to deal with.

  303. 803
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Ogvorbis
    I’m not brave enough to venture into the Thunderdome, but I’m really sorry for whatever happened over there!

    Not sure it requires bravery. Stupidity, maybe (for me (I am not calling anyone else stupid (just me!))). Not bravery.

  304. 804
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    We have no one.

    Our ancestors are gone.

    Spirit guides and guardian angels are but wisps of ions inside the mind.

    The gods are simply not.

    We have no one.

    No one, but each other.

    Hands that type, arms that hold and emotions that cascade, tumbling out in words kind and helpful and consoling.

    We have each other.

    It is enough.

    It is everything.

    Thank you all.

  305. 805
    ednaz

    Ogvorbis, You went in to that conversation (please correct me if I’m wrong) to call out a person who was hurting others. That is not weak.
    Stepping back from a particularly vile and cruel conversation is not weak. It is taking care of one’s self.
    -

    When we’re on a plane and the oxygen masks drop, we are told to put our oxygen mask on and then help the person next to us.
    We cannot help others if we ignore our own health.
    -
    Your strength is something I wish I had.

  306. 806
    Portia

    Joe, I think I missed a hug-worthy comment from you. *hugs* if you’d like them. Glad your wife likes dinner :)

    inthelemonlight:
    Baader-Meinhof – That’s…damn interesting : ) It’s like when I bought an Alero and now I see them everywhere.

    FossilFishy:
    Beautifully written, as always. Poignant and true.

  307. 807
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Stepping back from a particularly vile and cruel conversation is not weak. It is taking care of one’s self.

    It scares me. The idea that what happened is my fault is still so close to the surface, so close to being dominant. I feel like I’m standing on the fulcrum of a seesaw and the it is going to go one way or the other and I have no idea which.

  308. 808
    ednaz

    Tony, Hooray for better pay! Your bosses are lucky to have you. I’m glad they appreciate you.
    -
    Tigger_the_Wing, Your dream of Ireland was so beautiful.
    I am so sorry your heart hurt when you woke up. *many many hugs*
    It is good to hear the good news about your health.
    -
    Parrowing, I hope you feel well enough to talk to us soon. We’re here. *hugs*
    -
    WMD Kitty, You are really working through a lot. Sending *scritches* if that’s o.k.
    -
    FossilFishy, Your kindness to others is wonderful.

    Fucking sleep apnoea. I’ve made an appointment at the GP.

    Hoping for good information from your G.P. (Hope is a beautiful thing.)
    -

  309. 809
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Oggie:

    It scares me. The idea that what happened is my fault is still so close to the surface, so close to being dominant. I feel like I’m standing on the fulcrum of a seesaw and the it is going to go one way or the other and I have no idea which.

    The fact that you’re slowly but surely winning that fight is impressive. The fact that you have enough strength to fight for other people on top of that is fucking awe-inspiring. Seriously, no shit? …you’re a goddamned superhero.

  310. 810
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    …you’re a goddamned superhero.

    I consider myself to be a coward. I try to be as honest as I can, even when it hurts me, because being dishonest will, I know, show up down the road to take a giant chunk out of my ass. I find if scary that anyone would think of me as a good example of anything — unless one is looking for an example of narcissism, fear, and depression.

    I think I’m feeling a little down. Sorry.

  311. 811
    ednaz

    Ogvorbis, You have come so far. Please remember all the good that has taken place here.
    Your breakthroughs have been incredible.
    You can take my hand – for balance – and walk to safety (and all the powerful things you have realized about yourself in the very recent past).

  312. 812
    chigau (違う)

    What did I miss?
    Why are we at 811?

  313. 813
    ednaz

    FossilFishy @ 804
    This is beautiful. Thank You for sharing it.

  314. 814
    carlie

    Oggie – you haven’t been dealing with this very long, not at all. Of course you don’t know quite where all of your boundaries are, and what might or might not set off the badness. You’re learning. And we all have your back, so please never feel like you are obligated to comment on anything or to share with people who might hurt you.

    FossilFishy – Want me to take the hope for you? I’ll hope that’s it, and you can tell me of course it’s not that and don’t be silly and we’ll both wait for your GP to schedule you a sleep lab and see what happens.

  315. 815
    Portia

    S is here now, so I’m going to probably sign off for the evening, but…

    Ogvorbis, you are so brave and strong. Your fortitude is inspirational. You are a walking triumph of the tenacity of the human spirit.
    Please talk your lizard brain into believing this.

  316. 816
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    Ogvorbis

    There’s something that you need to consider. iJoe suffers from depression. We’ve seen it here, he gets in a bad way and bad things happen. He understands in a tiny part what you’re going through. Not in detail obviously, but in effect. He’s watched you here, read your words, seen your fights, rejoiced at your breakthroughs and now he calls you a superhero.

    Understand this, intellectually, because your depression and anxiety won’t allow you to understand it emotionally: iJoe is right.

    He is right because his opinion of you is informed by fact and tempered by an intimate understanding of what it means to be depressed.

    And here’s the thing: I agree with him for all the reasons I listed above.

    If I could sew, I would make you a dashing cape to strike fear into your enemies and awe into your friends and loved ones.

    Be as well as you can be Ogvorbis and know that none of us here would lie about now we perceive you.

  317. 817
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Ogvorbis:
    Take my hand as well.
    It is understandable that you feel weak, but I will never forget how you’ve spoken about recognizing your privilege. I have read your tale about realizing the sexism steeped society we live in. I have read, with great respect how you have grown. I have a great amount of respect for you and I think you are an awesome person.

    Whenever you need help fighting your demons, just know I will be there to assist. Perhaps not physically, but emotionally…most definitely. Though you may feel alone, here…there be friends. here, there be shoulders to lean on…ears to listen intently…voices to offer advice and assistance as needed.
    Never forget that.

  318. 818
    inthelemonlight

    Portia

    I’m teaching myself new knitting skills via youtube video. It’s fun to learn new stuff and challenge myself. I went to the yarn shop today and got the stuff I need to try a new technique. The owner of that shop is really helpful and cool. I actually thought it was great that I had to wait for her to finish nursing her little boy before she could help me with my selections :)

    Knitting videos are fantastic! One of them taught me how to do intarsia. And yarn-store owners are almost always so friendly and helpful. I guess that’s natural enough given that most of them are passionate about making things for other people!

    Ogvorbis
    I’ve only been here for a few days, but seriously, you seem awesome. Keep giving yourself chances for things to get better, because you deserve them! “If you’re going through hell, keep going.” – Churchill

  319. 819
    John Morales

    Ogvorbis, it’s funny how someone like you has much lower self-esteem than is appropriate, but someone like I has more than is appropriate.

    (Life ain’t fair; if it were, it would be the other way around)

  320. 820
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Ogvorbis , I’m agreeing with what Improbable Joe, ednaz, carlie and Portia said. You are a hero. It takes amazing strength of character to do what you have been doing. May the see-saw come down the right way. With the help of everyone here, I think it probably will.

    WMD Kitty, I’ve been reading your descriptions of what you went through.
    *offers scritches, one cat to another* =^_^=
    You, too, are an amazing example of survival in the face of great odds. If there is anything I can do to help find your creativity (did it roll under the sofa, perhaps?) I would willingly do it. The drive to create is seldom totally lost, it’s just that sometimes it needs a re-direction.

    I re-discovered a passion for knitting when I had to give up artwork. My hands trembled too much for me to be happy with the results any more. I also had to abandon calligraphy. No-one wants wobbly penmanship either! For a couple of years, I was knitting-mad; but, gradually, I discovered that uncurling my fingers from around the needles was becoming harder and harder. So I gave up, but with the encouragement of Number 4 Son, I took up crochet instead, because I can do that with my fingers straight most of the time.

    Even if your drawing-muse has taken to hiding, you might find something else!

    FossilFishy, that poem was beautiful! And I am greatly appreciating your desire to share your music. I haven’t played for months, so please take credit for the fact that you have inspired me to sit back at the organ and not worry about what other people think of my waning skills!

  321. 821
    John Morales

    [mutter]

    My previous was particularly poorly expressed, and with bad grammar to boot.

  322. 822
    Tethys

    Og,

    I was triggered to the point of helpless sobbing rage by the original NYC thread too, and I merely read most of it.

    there is No Shame in not being able to control your emotions. If that were possible, we wouldn’t have PTSD.

    Your feelings and reactions are absolutely correct and valid. Try to see them as a symptom that you need to give yourself some extra nurturing, rather than evidence that you have messed up.

  323. 823
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Portia: YAY KNITTING!!! Every new thing pushes out the horizons of your life, right? Good fucking times!

  324. 824
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    Haiku? Aaaargh! Resist?

    Newton — Principia:

    Cherry blossoms fall
    with force equal to mass times
    acceleration

    (What can I say? I’m cheating.)

    Homer — The Odyssey:

    Agean forecast –
    Storms, chance of one-eyed giants,
    delays expected

    David Bader’s work.

  325. 825
    Pteryxx

    Ogvorbis, you do deserve all the praise here. I’ve just been reading it through and I concur – it’s all accurate. You’ve come such a long way and in spite of everything you’re radiant with compassion.

    For what it’s worth, I did make the decision you’re beating yourself up over. I started replying to Paul, I saw where it was going and I bailed, to try and save myself the triggering. Because of that I managed to stay functional and get some things done this afternoon (after being miserable for only a couple of hours). But I don’t feel wise or proud of this… I wish I’d stayed in to help support you, especially, because I know what it cost you to stand up for me and the rest of us survivors.

    None of us *want* to get into these fights over and over and over again because it’s “fun”. It’s ugly, necessary work. But it’s only because of folks like you (and me, other days) that the rest of us can take a break, set the burden down, and stay silent.

  326. 826
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    You know, I think I’d enjoy knitting. My favorite job is building bike wheels. You take a bunch of metal sticks and a hoop and at the end of it all you have a wheel. Knitting is like that, transforming materials into a thing with a new function. It’s as close as us non-chemists get to alchemy.

  327. 827
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    cm

    Futile resistance
    Is the hobgoblin of minds
    Glued fast with hard prose.

  328. 828
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    For the hookers amongst us:

    Crocheted reef.

    I love crocheting corals. They are such fun, and I can use up scraps of any colour I like. Babies love them as balls they can handle easily and chew.

  329. 829
    carlie

    The best knitting videos I’ve ever found are at http://www.knittinghelp.com/ Fantastic, and easy to understand, and everything is done both ways.

  330. 830
    John Morales

    I’ve never grokked poesy (nevermind specific stylistic modes) but from Wikipedia (footnotes elided):

    Haiku (俳句 haikai verse?) About this sound listen (help·info) (no separate plural form) is a very short form of Japanese poetry typically characterised by three qualities:
     
    • The essence of haiku is “cutting” (kiru). This is often represented by the juxtaposition of two images or ideas and a kireji (“cutting word”) between them, a kind of verbal punctuation mark which signals the moment of separation and colours the manner in which the juxtaposed elements are related.
    • Traditional haiku consist of 17 on (also known as morae), in three phrases of 5, 7 and 5 on respectively. Any one of the three phrases may end with the kireji. Although haiku are often stated to have 17 syllables, this is inaccurate as syllables and on are not the same.
    • A kigo (seasonal reference), usually drawn from a saijiki, an extensive but defined list of such words.

  331. 831
    Deborah

    Hi guys, some of you might remember me, I visited here briefly last fall when I was on the computer a lot looking for a job. Well, I got a job – one that works us very long hours (12 hours a day, 5 – 6 days a week) so I stopped having time or energy to spend reading the Lounge, though I kept up with the blog entries on FTB, mostly.

    But now I’m having an awful problem and though maybe I could run it by some of you. Not only am I working these long hours, but the people have nasty mouths and run them all the time. Basically, I sit at an assigned work bench with other people assigned to their benches all around – we don’t get to pick and we don’t move day to day. For the past few months I’ve sat with the same people, people who seem to think they are sitting at the bar having a conversation with their mates and can talk about any old thing they please, and what they please is just really offensive.

    trigger warning for content description

    They talk about how awful gay people are and how they should be beaten by their parents or how parents should tell their same sex kids what they are attracted to to train them to be heterosexual. They talk about how women lie about being raped to get away with cheating. They talk about whether and in what way they would murder their wives if they caught them cheating – unless it was with a women, in which case, they might watch and then join in. They talk about “funny” scenes in movies involving male-male prison rape. They comment on the appearance women walking by, usually calling them “fish” and discussing whether they are worth “catching” and whether they should be “thrown back”. They discuss in animated detail sex and cheating, oral sex and masturbation, the price of Beyonce’s underwear, the proper weight of a woman, how bullying turns teenagers gay, how children aren’t beaten enough today, what the prostitutes “down on Lamar” are wearing, what the local mentally handicapped homeless woman did at the driver’s license office that was entertaining, etc.

    Of course between all that they talk about how the government makes up swear words and convinces us they are forbidden in the bible to confuse us into…I don’t know, something. And how Lucifer was the angel of music and that’s why Michael Jackson’s music was so popular and why rap makes kids join gangs. And how voodoo works – but only if you believe in it, but oh wait, maybe that was Wicca?

    I’ve tried arguing, I’ve tried telling them the conversations are inappropriate and offensive. I’m talked over, laughed at, insulted, and lectured when I argue. I’m laughed at and then ignored when I tell them the conversation is offensive or inappropriate. I filed a formal HR complaint for sexual harassment on January 9, and HR told me that the investigation was concluded on January 17, and that they not only substantiated my allegations, but that they found such a widespread culture of similar activities thoughout the hundreds of employees and several departments that they felt a site wide intervention was in order. Since then, nothing has happened. On February 4 I went back to HR after one of the worst offenders told me that he didn’t care whether I thought his comments about taking another coworker’s wife’s picture to the bathroom to masturbate to it were disgusting and he was going to talk about whatever he wanted (which he continued to do). The company I work for is a staffing agency that has an onsite HR department, and some of the employees involved work for the actual company that owns the site, and my HR told me on February 4 that they are waiting for the other company’s HR to get back with them about coordinating with them on site wide sexual harassment training, so that after training every one they could then be able to follow up with disciplinary action on anyone who continued behaving in these ways.

    The employees I’m having trouble with are not my supervisors, but my coworkers. The employer’s duty is less with coworkers than with supervisors, but not nonexistent; I can’t find a definition of the “prompt and remedial action” they are supposed to take to fulfill their duty anywhere, but surely a month after becoming aware, and three weeks after admitting to me that they agreed it existed and having done nothing whatsoever to remediate my situation is not prompt in any sense of the word? The HR rep did say she had considered moving me but was afraid that would call attention to me which she wished to avoid in order to avoid risking the confidentiality of my complaint, and given how widespread she and my experience says the situation is, I don’t know how much good moving would do. Still, it has come to the point that I am on edge all the time, my productivity suffers, I find I am not sleeping as well, forgetful even away from work, unhappy all the time, etc. Today a fly landed on my desk and I screeched loud enough to scare people rows away.

    The next option is to file an EEOC complaint. Paradoxically, I would have to request time off work to do it, because you have to go in person! You can mail it, but it takes longer and they just have to call you (during business hours, when I can’t answer the phone) to talk about it. I am far beyond having any rational thought process on this situation. What I want advice on is whether you guys think I should file an EEOC complaint, or give HR more time to resolve the situation, or go back and try to get HR to do something, or something else?

  332. 832
    John Morales

    deborahbell, I’m in no position to advise you, but do you know and understand the terms of employment and associated relevant policies?

    Both parties need to abide by those, and if your employer is breaching them (or not enforcing them on other employees) you will have a very strong case.

    (Also, unless they’re confidential, it is possible that someone here (alas, not I) might have both the expertise and desire to peruse them and give you informed advice)

  333. 833
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    deborahbell,

    First off, glad to see you back!

    Second, sorry you’re going through that.

    Third… IANAL, but my guess is that someone forgot to dot their ‘I’s and cross their ‘T’s when it came to policy and employee handbooks and such. It is easier and less of a legal hassle to make everyone sit through a standard class, make them sign an agreement to abide by the standards laid out in the class, and then go after offenders. In the situation you’re in, they would have to go after the entire department, and if they miss ONE person, everyone else gets to counter that the standards weren’t applied equally and it is back to square -1, because they are now open to suits for wrongful termination or because people aren’t promoted as quickly as they think they should be.

    So my guess is that HR is putting together a package, with a form that has to be filled out and signed at the end, and before they have 100% participation in the signature program, they won’t do a goddamned thing.

  334. 834
    mythbri

    @deborahbell

    That really sucks. I can empathize, even though my workplace isn’t nearly as bad.

    But if the HR investigation said that it was a wide-spread problem, it sounds like a workplace culture thing, and that is not easy to change.

    If HR is truly planning to try to correct this, I imagine they’re being extremely methodical in their implementation of training and awareness. There is nothing worse for a bad workplace culture than having new things badly implemented. It will make things worse. I assume that if they’re working on it, they definitely don’t want the effort to be wasted, and they definitely want the changes they make to be effective.

    In the mean time, are there any workplace rules against listening to a personal music device while you’re working? It might help to distract you until action is taken by HR.

  335. 835
    cicely

    Parrowing????
    *hugs&encouragement*
    You are not invisible. You are not worthless. Depression Lies.
    *more hugs*
    -
    And *hugs* for FossilFishy. If it helps…The Husband says that, to borrow a phrase, I snore like a chainsaw fucking an air compressor.
     
    Like he’s got any room to talk! *in tones of exaggerated indignation*
    -
    Ogvorbis: All those things just a bit up-Thread: +1. You rock.
    -
    Hi, deborahbell! I remember you!
    :)
    *reading*
    o.O
    I…don’t know what to say. Except that you have my sympathies.

    -

  336. 836
    Deborah

    Hi, John, the workplace policies are a bit difficult to puzzle out. The only HR department policies I have access to are the ones for the company whose site I work at, but for whom I am only a contract or temp employee. The employer I am actually employed by, the staffing agency, gave me some paperwork and a 15 minute off the cuff statement that constituted the entire new employee orientation when I started, but I don’t have access to any kind of handbook or website for them at work (there may be something on their public website, I suppose). The host company has a very short and cursory sexual harassment policy that I took the time to find today – it was hidden – that says little more than what the law says on the EEOC website. The lecture we got when we started spent a lot more time talking about not getting involved when a person is hurt and bodily fluids are involved to avoid possible contamination (instead letting onsite medical staff handle the situation) than anything else of any kind.

    Joe, thanks, I missed you guys, I just don’t have time to keep up with you! :) I’m hoping to find a better job, which this was only intended to be a stepping stone to and which will let me have more time.
    The hard thing is I think they really need to put a good policy in place and deal with the situation. I think it’s the best thing they could do. On the other hand – I need some resolution now. Let’s do triage first then make long term plans.

    mythbri, I didn’t describe that part of it. Since we are working on computers, and in a foreign trade zone, we work behind metal detectors and security. We can’t have any electronic or metal devices of any kind, including phones and personal mp3 players. The computers don’t have outside internet access and would be too slow anyway. There are no windows and no radio of any kind. There are no dividers between workbenches so the only limiter is voice loudness and distance. It is a loud, dusty, industrial environment. As we are working with the internals of computers, printed circuit boards, wires, etc., we can’t even have paper of any kind, so no books, magazines, or printed material. We don’t have email, even internal. Some people wear earplugs for the noise, so I could do that, and cut down on how much I pay attention to what the guys are saying, but that’s about it. I sit on the end of an aisle, and the guy across from me talks very loudly to the guy next to me, and the one kitty corner across from me sometimes joins in. I can’t talk to anyone else without raising my voice and turning away from my work.

  337. 837
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Cicely:
    I am still waiting to see that side of you that is not ‘mostly harmless’. Is that the side of you reserbed for horses?

  338. 838
    cicely

    Tony:
    Oooh, crap! I should have changed that before now!
     
    Do you think…They…have noticed?
    *quickly hiding Death Ray plans under bin of poisoned apples*
    -

  339. 839
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Nope. I have kept our equine lords occupied with queer shoop shuffling. All the sheep do it. It is the new dance craze…

  340. 840
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    …I snore like a chainsaw fucking an air compressor.

    Damn. That made me laugh loud enough to startle the horses.

    I’m not too fussed by the snoring. Ms. Fishy and I can work that out should the need arise. Mind you, Chez Fishy (Ghost Train Villa (TM) ) won’t have spare room to vacate to should the damn thing every be finished. Guess it’s good thing we bought a couch that’s big enough for me to sleep on.

    What worries me is that it’ll turn out that I don’t have sleep apnea and I’ll have to just carry on fighting my way through a haze of fatigue day and day out. And how sick is that? That I’m hoping for illness? Bah.

  341. 841
    cicely

    Damn. That made me laugh loud enough to startle the horses.

    *flourishing cape*
    Then my work here is done!
    :)
    -

  342. 842
    PZ Myers

    NEW THREAD.

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