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Dec 13 2012

Welp, I’m all convinced and stuff now

The ongoing dispute about sexism in the secular community has been settled at last by one incredibly insightful post.

Atheism is a ‘guy thing,’ I would say, like needlepoint is a ‘girl thing.’

We don’t have to consider why the sexes fall (or are pushed) into these particular roles; they just are. And with that simple argument, we’re done. By golly, we ought to make the guy who said it some kind of leader of the atheist movement. We wouldn’t want to have him wasting his time on things like needlepoint, you know.

713 comments

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  1. 501
    pHred

    Emrysmyrddin:

    I feel that he needs to practice moar.
    .
    I don’t mean here.

    I am extremely glad you clarified that comment. This is starting to compare to listening to an elementary school student play violin – yes they need to practice, but it does not have to be in earshot the entire time.

  2. 502
    a_ray_in_dilbert_space

    Amphiox@484
    YES! That is an excellent point that hasn’t been brought out nearly enough. When I think of all that mathematical talent–how many Emmy Noethers did we miss out on?

  3. 503
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Beatrice:
    Oh no, of course not! I’ll just be over here changin’ diapers and makin’ sammiches ‘cos that’s about all my laydee brainz can handle. Tee hee!

  4. 504
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    I see our special little fella has left the premises. If he has training in methodology, he needs to go get his money back from the school. Or apologize to all his profs for wasting their time.

  5. 505
    glodson

    I go to bed, get up, and see a thread on sexism has exploded. And the only new thing I have to take away from all this is that I’m missing chances to use the word science more. I am going to make an effort to change that.

  6. 506
    pHred

    Based on my grading thus far I would suggest that the apology is to his profs is in order. Once someone that dense has decided something is true™ it is utter hell to try and wedge it back out again.

    I offer as proof the stuff that comes out of my students mouths after we spend a few weeks talking about paleothermometry, current temperature trends, thickness of ice sheets, carbon dioxide measurements etc. etc. And they still answer questions with “I believe” or something about “the ozone hole.” It is like beating my head against a wall.

  7. 507
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    pHred: Oh yeah. I’ve been teaching Sociology classes. I spend all semester discussing major social movements in US history, and the minute we pass the 1980s, three quarters of the people in the class shut down.

    And then I ask them questions about the relationship in the US between the Puritan work ethic and our collective scorn of welfare, and half the class can’t remember the lecture and another quarter remember the lecture and hate the ideas (and ain’t changing their mind for me.) Fortunately, this is a senior and junior level class, so I at least tend to get students who are a little better at reading comprehension.

    But god help me when I introduce stats and methodology. I won’t even let them write papers anymore because of what happens when I get them.

    They do take essay style exams, and those are bad enough.

  8. 508
    Rey Fox

    Are the Koch Brothers funding these people or some shit?

    I guess any time PZ calls out someone else in skeptiverse for their lazy thinking with regards to sexism*, he’s going to stir up the old boys club.

    We’re mennnnnn

    * Hay did you guise see that? I just called Shermer a misogynist because of ONE OFF THE CUFF REMARK HE MADE ONE TIME!!11

  9. 509
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    Besides, apparently maintenance on the troof is easier than trying to learn.

  10. 510
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Rey Fox:
    Baiting the pitters like that…good job!

  11. 511
    pHred

    @mouthyb

    The very thought of giving essay exams to my intro class makes my mind go blank with fear. Some of them can’t even make a coherent sentence on a 3×5 card after you have presented the sentence to them in technicolor. Seriously – one of the questions on the exit slip the last week of class was “What is the date, time and location of the final exam?” – which was still written on the blackboard. Some of them still managed to get it wrong!

  12. 512
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    I’m sick to tears of all this pseudo-religious ahistorical libertarian Just World fallacy-based sexism. There’s no reason to act as though individuals exist outside of a culture with a long history of bigotry and violence against people who aren’t upper-class white Christian* men. If you honestly deal with cultural issues, you don’t fall into the ignorant notion that the way things are is the way things have to be. If you reject illogical libertarian dogma, you can grasp that the world doesn’t magically just put everyone and everything where it should be as long as no one interferes with the way things are.

    “It’s a guy thing” doesn’t tell you anything, and is a profoundly stupid comment to make, let alone attempt to defend. The fact that people calling themselves skeptics, people who feel entitled to leadership positions no less, are incapable of forming an argument greater than one step away from “girls have cooties, and if you do girls stuff you’ll get girl cooties too!”? Yeah, there’s less and less reason to take the skeptical”movement” seriously every day.

  13. 513
    hillaryrettig

    if you’re going to be an ahole, at least be succinct.

  14. 514
  15. 515
    johncryan

    Rosie Grier, former member of the Los Angelos Ram’s “Fearsome Foursome”, would like a word with you…

  16. 516
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    pHred: I used to teach comp and make them hate me. (Their projects in class were to rewrite the same three essays until they resembled the standard for college writing.) The class was 2/3 beating down objections to having to edit and create college-worthy writing. And let me tell you, I’ve been called everything you can imagine in the classroom for it, to my face.

    I’ve also been that student in early math classes, for which I’m really sorry. For me it was equal parts fear of catastrophic failure and mismatch between the knowledge I possessed and the knowledge the prof assumed I possessed.

    Fortunately, my trig teacher told me that math wasn’t for me (or women.) I was so annoyed I took more math classes because no way was someone going to bar me from learning something. :D

  17. 517
    sharculese

    There’s no reason to act as though individuals exist outside of a culture with a long history of bigotry and violence against people who aren’t upper-class white Christian* men

    But what about white dudes’ feeeeeeeeelings?

  18. 518
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    sharculese: They are delicate little flowers, aren’t they? The slightest hint of rejection can ruin a man for life, forcing them to hate all women and potentially go on killing sprees.

    Any man who believes that to be true wouldn’t last a day as a woman.

    *spits*

  19. 519
    Rey Fox

    If you honestly deal with cultural issues, you don’t fall into the ignorant notion that the way things are is the way things have to be.

    This latest crop of idjits seems constitutionally incapable of seeing beyond their own noses.

  20. 520
    Amphiox

    re rq @488;

    I’m on my smartphone and since my testosterone poisoned word deficient man-brain hasn’t figured out how to do cut’n'paste in iOS, I can’t provide the exact link, but if you google “human computer” the Wikipedia article that comes up high on the search list is an enlightening place to start. You may notice that the profession started closed to women in the 17th century, then flipped to become dominated by women (paid at half the rate of men, of course) in the early 20th, then vanished once the electronic version arrived for the second half of the 20th. And yes, they were a big part of the WWII code breaking efforts.

    Back in those halcyon days, computer, along with secretary, was one of the few socially acceptable vocations a young, intelligent, well educated woman could have during that formative period when it was acceptable for her to actually earn a wage, after leaving pappy and before landing hubby.

    The corollary to this of course is that electronic nerd culture was basically born shafting women and continues in that grand tradition to this day. (Ironic though it may be that the very first cohort of programmers were drawn from the pool of human computers and were almost all women, back to Babbage’s assistant Ada Lovelace.)

  21. 521
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Dammit sharculese, thanks for reminding me!

    *I says “There’s no reason to act as though individuals exist outside of a culture with a long history of bigotry and violence against people who aren’t upper-class white Christian* men” but I also note that upper-class white ATHEIST men have no problem recognizing and opposing Christian privilege… you know, the one kind they don’t have. Amazing though that all the other privileges are non-existent to them even when pointed out to them, the same way they at least pretend to understand that sexism is wrong when Christians and especially when Muslims do it.

  22. 522
    bargearse

    Aphiox @484 & 513

    That little factoid has made wading though this thread worthwhile. Thankyou

  23. 523
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    But what about white dudes’ feeeeeeeeelings?

    With gusto!
    FEE-FEES! nothing more than FEE-FEES!

  24. 524
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    Getting back to the original Vaculous Remark™, I’m a woman person and teach a variety of Girly™ needlecraft. Of late, I have taught a whole lot more teenage boys than girls how to knit. Something about being able to have a socially acceptable fidget in classes, lectures, and other situations that require sitting still and one that yields hats and scarves (that can be given to girls – even better!). The gender-role transgression thing actually seems to be part of the appeal, particularly since I often give them some semi-rude, pre-formulated, and non-gendered insults with which to respond to gendered bullying.

    The reason why I, as an atheist woman, don’t want to be more active in much of the secular/atheist movement is exemplified by Justin Vacula himself, as the type specimen for the bullying, gender-policing sorts who expend to much effort to shout women down and harrass them out of public roles in atheist organizations.

  25. 525
    Emrysmyrddin

    The reason why I, as an atheist woman, don’t want to be more active in much of the secular/atheist movement is exemplified by Justin Vacula himself, as the type specimen for the bullying, gender-policing sorts who expend to much effort to shout women down and harrass them out of public roles in atheist organizations.

    This. They can’t see the problem because they are the problem.

  26. 526
    Jadehawk

    Doing so would require actually discussing the substance of those papers, which I’m pretty sure he either never read or ever comprehended.

    I don’t think the problem is in reading comprehension. it’s the next step up that seems to have a scratch, because the needle always jumps directly from “there’s still some difference in results, in some studies” to “women aren’t analytical”, completely missing all the steps that go between those two statements.

    and he’s still not explained how holding speeches, writing books, and making tv appearances is supposed to require analytical thinking, rather than the stereotypically female verbal aptitude

  27. 527
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    Also, I think “Vaculous” is a great adjective.

  28. 528
    jennyjfwlucy

    Oh, Mattir, would you share those retorts with me? I would be so grateful.

  29. 529
    bargearse

    Could I please get a definition of vaculous because I really want to work that into my everyday life

  30. 530
    badgersdaughter

    Mattir, as someone who has been a crafts teacher in the past and who has talked a few men (husbands and sons of my primary customers) into doing quilting, crochet, and even (since I personally hate it) cross-stitch… please also share your remarks with me! Thank you :)

  31. 531
    nms

    and he’s still not explained how holding speeches, writing books, and making tv appearances is supposed to require analytical thinking, rather than the stereotypically female verbal aptitude

    It’s analytical thinking when a man does it, because men are analytical thinkers.

  32. 532
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    The insults generally involve some form of “I don’t know about you, dude, but my peen doesn’t fall off or grow back inside or start doing stuff it never did before just because I (knit)(grow my hair long)(other gender-policed activity).

    Closely related to the line DaughterSpawn uses sometimes – “I don’t know about you, but they boys I want to date don’t think the fun parts of girls are nicely shaven calves.” (She doesn’t shave her legs, and it’s astonishing how upsetting this is for gender policing 16 year old Boy Scouts. The senior staff at her camp, on the other hand, once overheard such a comment and threatened to hang the gender policer up by his intestines if he made one more remark about her leg hair. )

  33. 533
    ahmetduran

    Pepper thy anguses bishes, it’s rustle time!

  34. 534
    Jadehawk

    FSM spare us from cupcakes who don’t know most of the internet isn’t 4chan

  35. 535
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Pepper thy anguses bishes, it’s rustle time!

    Is that English?

    So, ahmet. Would you like to address why you thought those two studies that you linked to supported your position that “girls suck at math”?

  36. 536
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Pepper thy anguses bishes, it’s rustle time!

    Must be recess time in kindergarten.

  37. 537
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    Jadehawk: But if they pretend it’s all 4chan /b/ boards, they never have to think. Not thinking is very important to them.

    How dare we rob them of their freeze peaches!

  38. 538
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    Also, in b4 stupid freeze peaches comments.

  39. 539
    ahmetduran

    First a short reiteration:

    Dependent variable (to be explained): why chicks don’t flock at the skeptic/nerd community

    Independent variables that me and others invoked to explain the dependent variable:
    1) girls have less analytical skills than men
    2) girls are less argumentative and agressive than men
    3) girls aren’t attracted to the nerd community
    4) nerd community discriminates against girls
    5!!) New argument, step right in folks: girls have less…ABSTRACT skills than men (in b4 feminists head explode of anger).

    Most of you guys likened explanation 4. Me too, but since this phenomena is multi-determined, we need more independent variables. I liken them all as potentially possible. Most of you guys don’t like explanations 1-3 (and probably also would not like nr 5) because, lettuce be reality, truth hurts :)

    Most of you guys reacted will ill founded arguments like: “herp derp i’m a gurll and I love math” ==> fail anecdotal evidence is fail.

    #Deal with it
    #Come at me bro
    #bishes ain’t chit but hoes and tricks (okay, this is getting silly now, i’ll just stop with the nonsense and get with the real discussion)

  40. 540
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Dependent variable (to be explained): why chicks don’t flock at the skeptic/nerd community

    oh that’s easy, they want to stay away from your useless bigot ass.

  41. 541
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    I was going to respond, but Illuminata wins everything.

    Time to pack it in and go home, everyone.

  42. 542
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    ahmetduran,

    STOP calling grown up women girls.

  43. 543
    ahmetduran

    So, ahmet. Would you like to address why you thought those two studies that you linked to supported your position that “girls suck at math”?

    I’m going to page one now and respond to the guy/girl with the red avatar first. (and possibly others)

  44. 544
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    ahmetduran: I’m pretty sure that I speak for most of the thread when I say we’ve been waiting for you to stop being silly and have an actual discussion for the last 24 odd hours.

    As far as evidence, help yourself to the feminism and social justice links in the right sidebar by PZed’s picture. Ain’t no one required to educate you.

  45. 545
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    STOP using any variant of the word “bitch”

  46. 546
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    lOl I can’t help but mock this useless bigot boy. He says bitches ain’t shit, and it’s true because . . . .. uh . . . . .his mom says he’s cool .

  47. 547
    Jadehawk

    because, lettuce be reality, truth hurts

    darling, you wouldn’t know truth if it spit in your face. none of the shit you pulled out of your ass has any actual evidence for existing, unlike sexism; you can only deduce it from the data you’re trying to explain, which is assuming your conclusions and using circular reasoning.

    and in any case, even if there were any evidence for any of that shit, it would not be capable of explaining the specific pattern of gender variance we observe, whereas intersectional discrimination can.

    get with the real discussion

    you won’t, of course. you’ll continue pulling shit out of your ass instead showing how your assumptions are actually based on the data. your education has failed you, massively.

  48. 548
    ahmetduran

    Important note: If I missed any responses, pls indicate which post nr to look at, I will look at them ASAP.
    Okay, thx, live love laugh

  49. 549
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    ahmetduran,

    You fool, you have nothing but anecdotes and stereotypes.

  50. 550
    ahmetduran

    even if there were any evidence for any of that shit, it would not be capable of explaining the specific pattern of gender variance we observe, whereas intersectional discrimination can.

    How convenient for you

  51. 551
    Jadehawk

    I’m going to page one now and respond to the guy/girl with the red avatar first. (and possibly others)

    it’s guy/gal, and girl/boy. learn to fucking English, it’s not that hard.

  52. 552
    Jadehawk

    How convenient for you

    yes, amazingly, it’s quite “convenient” for me that reality supports my argument.

  53. 553
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Independent variables that me and others invoked to explain the dependent variable:
    1) girls have less analytical skills than men
    2) girls are less argumentative and agressive than men
    3) girls aren’t attracted to the nerd community
    4) nerd community discriminates against girls
    5!!) New argument, step right in folks: girls have less…ABSTRACT skills than men (in b4 feminists head explode of anger).

    1) The studies you’ve linked to directly refute your assumption that women have less math skills* than men, so you actually haven’t proven anything.

    2) You haven’t backed this up with anything but your stupid ass opinion.

    3) Which nerd community?

    4) Which nerd community?

    5) How do you know women have less “abstract” skills than men? What exactly are these “abstract” skills?

    Care to try again?

    *Math skills =/= analytical skills, but whatevs. Not surprised that you use the two terms interchangeably.

  54. 554
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    How convenient for you

    Translation: Yep, ahmetduran is a pants-pissing coward who can’t come up with a single shred of evidence that supports his bigotry. So he’ll just keep on with the painfully unfunny, unclever puns.

  55. 555
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Does anyone else feel a sudden rush of pity for those poor TAs/professors that had to grade this slob’s papers?

  56. 556
    Jadehawk

    at this point, I feel worse for any poor undergrads stuck with this defect for a TA/tutor

  57. 557
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    ahmetduran,

    English isn’t your first language, fine. It’s not mine either. Or second, for that matter. So when people advise you about something language related do take notice.

    Don’t call grown women girls. I’m right now giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you are not doing it to be a dismissive asshole but from ignorance. Correct it.

  58. 558
    ahmetduran

    What is most interesting is that ahmet would look at a series of studies that show, at best, a small difference in means, with massively overlapping deviations, and then from that choose to use the value-laden term “suck” to describe the finding.

    That’s kind of like saying Peyton Manning sucks at quarterbacking because he has a head to head losing record against teams coached by Bill Belichuk.

    This, methinks, in common parlance, is what one could call a “tell”.

    What is only slightly less interesting is that ahmet would look at the same set of data, with small differences in means and vastly larger ranges of overlapping deviations, and choose to use the value-laden term “a given” to describe that finding.

    Because if there is one thing a set of small differences in means with vastly larger ranges of overlapping deviations is not, is “a given”.

    And that too, in layperson’s parlance, is a “tell”. Of something entirely different, but perhaps equally illuminating pertaining to the question of just what kind of person ahmetduran is.

    Fair enough, I’ll change my wording:

    It’s a given(aka well established fact) that females, as opposed to males, fail at math by a small degree.

    Good enough ?

    (and this in turn explains, only in part, potentially, why females don’t flock to the skeptic society since the society, assuming, has at least an analytical root (if not, this argument flies out the window)

  59. 559
    nms

    6) ahmetduran

  60. 560
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Let’s just agree to feel bad for everyone involved in this asshole’s education.

  61. 561
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    Audley: I’m having sympathy pains right now.

  62. 562
    sharculese

    Does anyone else feel a sudden rush of pity for those poor TAs/professors that had to grade this slob’s papers?

    There’s a peculiar thing among MRAs where they all have this urge to be linguistic and rhetorical tryhards with an almost pathological hostility to plain speech.

    See e.g. anything written by johntheother.

  63. 563
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    It’s a given(aka well established fact) that females, as opposed to males, fail at math by a small degree.

    Good enough ?

    (and this in turn explains, only in part, potentially, why females don’t flock to the skeptic society since the society, assuming, has at least an analytical root (if not, this argument flies out the window)

    LOLwut?

    Your argument is that women are slightly worse at math than men, therefore we avoid everything with an “analytical root”? DOES NOT FOLLOW.

  64. 564
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    And, frankly, atheist groups do NOT typically have analytic roots. There are any number of people attracted to atheism because they think it allows them to look down on the religious, not because they’ve engaged in a process of serious self-reflection and consistent analysis.

  65. 565
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    sharculese: It’s whut cause big wurds sound smrt.

  66. 566
    ahmetduran

    ahmetduran,

    English isn’t your first language, fine. It’s not mine either. Or second, for that matter. So when people advise you about something language related do take notice.

    Don’t call grown women girls. I’m right now giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you are not doing it to be a dismissive asshole but from ignorance. Correct it.

    It’s not important whether I call it girls, females, chicks, sloots, bishes. or men, boys, male, alpha, etc.
    If particular concepts are irrelevant, i’ll just use my own wording. (instead of ‘fail’ at math, I use ‘suck’. They are simply synonyms, euphemisms and pejoratives. I really really really (yeah really!) prefer to use my own wordings, so no deal!

    Ask politely and maybe I’ll reconsider

  67. 567
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    For fuck’s sake. Are you 12?

  68. 568
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Does anyone else feel a sudden rush of pity for those poor TAs/professors that had to grade this slob’s papers?

    Werll, at least all the crayon doodles covering the page would be funny.

  69. 569
    Pteryxx

    Ask politely and maybe I’ll reconsider

    Well heck, I didn’t swear at this jackass *enough*.

  70. 570
    ahmetduran

    And, frankly, atheist groups do NOT typically have analytic roots. There are any number of people attracted to atheism because they think it allows them to look down on the religious, not because they’ve engaged in a process of serious self-reflection and consistent analysis.

    I posted an article here where there was a causual links between analytical thinking and atheism.
    The guy/girl with red avatar also responded on that, so I’ll show you and him/her simultaneously that they ARE linked.

    But indeed, if it’s the case that atheist groups are not by any means analytical in one way or another, than obviously my argument of ‘girls = less analytical’ doesn’t hold anymore.

  71. 571
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Ask politely and maybe I’ll reconsider

    Throw yourself off a really high building. but don’t use safety equipment – that shit’s for weak silly chicks. is that nice enough, useless bigot?

  72. 572
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Seriously, that was probably the politest comment that shithead got on this page.

  73. 573
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    Ahmetduran: Dear tentac’ly overlord, man! If I were you, I’d be mortified to be known as this ass ignorant to a community of academics.

  74. 574
    nms

    So women are less involved in atheist communities because they are less analytical than men, and we know that they are less analytical than men because they are less involved in atheist communities.

    Seems sound.

  75. 575
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    ahmetduran: I should say that my personal criteria for analytical types requires them critically examine not just things outside themselves, but things inside them selves. It also entails a strong drive to be accurate and equitable.

  76. 576
    ahmetduran

    Also because, according to you at least, “girls” do better at verbal reasoning. So, of course, math must be the salient measure.

    I don’t quite follow this reasoning.
    Girls are indeed better at verbal ability (i’m sorry, it was not verbal reasoning, but verbal ability) as opposed to boys. (suddenly nobody asks for a study to back this up, they happily accept it :) )

    Math is indeed the salient measure BECAUSE we are talking about analytical stuff. Math is a part of that. Verbal ability is, to my knowledge, not an index of analytical skills.

    ‘Verbal ability’ is typically measured in the psychological literature as in: name up every word that begins with ‘a’. Females fare better at this kind of tasks than boys do.

    I don’t know how I would interpret these findings and relate it to explain the dependent variable.

  77. 577
    Amphiox

    If particular concepts are irrelevant, i’ll just use my own wording. (instead of ‘fail’ at math, I use ‘suck’. They are simply synonyms, euphemisms and pejoratives. I really really really (yeah really!) prefer to use my own wordings, so no deal!

    It is telling once again, that duranahmet, when deciding to present an alternative to his deliberate use of the value-laden term “suck”, should choose, of his own free will, the value-laden term “fail”.

    It is also telling that he recognizes that a term can be a pejorative, but when presented with the option of thinking of an alternative to a perjorative, he willfully chooses ANOTHER PEJORATIVE.

    I say again. Peyton Manning is 5-8 head to head against Tom Brady. If someone willfully chooses to use describe Peyton Manning as “failing” at being a quarterback, and cites this statistic as a reason, what that does tell us about what kind of football fan that person is?

    I guess it is a demonstration fo duranahmet’s testosterone addled language-deficient man-brain that he apparently does not comprehend that CHOICE OF SYNONYM MATTERS, because synonyms have overlapping BUT NOT EXACTLY MATCHING meanings and connotations. There is nothing “simple” about the choice of synonyms to use.

  78. 578
    ahmetduran

    So women are less involved in atheist communities because they are less analytical than men, and we know that they are less analytical than men because they are less involved in atheist communities.

    Nope.

    more like:

    Women less involved because they are less analytical.
    We know they are less analytical because 1) they don’t do science 2) no philosophy 3) no math

    No circular reasoning ;)

  79. 579
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Why are you ignoring, you bedwetting bigot? I thought you wanted proof that women are aggressive!

    oh wait – that would mean you were capable of analytical thinking, which you are clearly not

    you’re a chick, aren’t you!

  80. 580
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Stop saying ‘girl’ that way.

  81. 581
    ahmetduran

    @red avatar person: pls use a another sport as example, i’m not familiar with american football(?). Soccer will do.

  82. 582
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    1) they don’t do science 2) no philosophy 3) no math

    Yes we do. Also, math is science.

  83. 583
    Jadehawk

    It’s a given(aka well established fact) that females, as opposed to males, fail at math by a small degree.

    not even. again: http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-136-1-103.pdf
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21038941

    (and this in turn explains, only in part, potentially, why females don’t flock to the skeptic society since the society, assuming, has at least an analytical root (if not, this argument flies out the window)

    there it is again, the skipping to the conclusions that simply don’t follow. (and I notice that now it’s “skeptical society”; not atheism, and not secularism.) even if there were a significant, consistent difference in math scores, it wouldn’t follow that this difference is skill based (see: stereotype threat); even if there were an actual skill-based difference in math, if wouldn’t follow that this would translate to more broader, non-numerical forms of analytical thinking. even if math were the same as analytical thinking, it wouldn’t follow that this would have anything to do with atheism/skepticism, since there is a broad range of skills, abilities, and social determinants that correlate with atheism/skepticism, and that are useful in being/becoming a skeptic/atheist.

    It’s not important whether I call it girls, females, chicks, sloots, bishes. or men, boys, male, alpha, etc.

    incorrect. learn to communicate like a non-sexist.

    If particular concepts are irrelevant, i’ll just use my own wording.

    your wording is incorrect English, and sexist.

    I really really really (yeah really!) prefer to use my own wordings, so no deal!

    then don’t be surprised if you’re considered a subliterate sexist idiot for it.

  84. 584
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    ahmetduran,
    Do you acknowledge that you are using girl as a pejorative?

  85. 585
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    ‘Verbal ability’ is typically measured in the psychological literature as in: name up every word that begins with ‘a’. Females fare better at this kind of tasks than boys do.

    Wut? I don’t believe that you’ve ever taking a psych course. You should really stop lying on your facebook page.

    And, no, no one agrees with your “verbal reasoning” statement, they were going along with you for the sake of argument– Jadehawk asked MANY MANY times why someone with higher verbal reasoning skills would be prevented from writing books and making speeches.

    You can’t even keep your opinions consistent.

  86. 586
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    Okay, well I have to leave the conversation to go take graduate statistics final (soon to be done with the first year and a half of graduate statistics). I’ll check by later this afternoon for response.

    ahmetduran: So which is it: trying to float between points of view to avoid having to own any errors or just so damn bad at reading for comprehension that you don’t know you’re all over the place?

    My money is on a mix of the two. Protip: if you want to have a discussion, you also have to be open to changing your mind in the presence of better information.

    You’ve been given an excess of evidence and pointed to even more, you intellectual coward.

  87. 587
    ahmetduran

    So ahmet doesn’t have an answer for me? I’m shocked. Really.

    Please refer to your post.

  88. 588
    SallyStrange

    I certainly have no interest in joining in a community that is composed of guys who are convinced that women, on average, “fail” or “suck” at math, and therefore they are less capable/interested in analytical thinking, and therefore that’s why there aren’t very many women around in the first place. Talk about a self-fulfilling prophesy.

    Life’s too short to waste hanging out with jokers who aren’t as smart as they think they are, and compensate for their intellectual shortcomings by inventing elaborate fantasies about why at least men are better, on average, than women, at least, at math.

  89. 589
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Do you acknowledge that you are using girl as a pejorative?

    Don’t think he cares.

  90. 590
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Dude, do a search for my name. I’ll help you out: the relevant posts are on the first page.

  91. 591
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Rev.
    But it’s so nice to get “yes, I’m an unrepentant asshole” in writing and signed.

  92. 592
    bargearse

    ahmetduran@571

    No circular reasoning ;)

    You’ve got to be shitting me. You’ve been making my head spin since your first post

  93. 593
    ahmetduran

    Wut? I don’t believe that you’ve ever taking a psych course. You should really stop lying on your facebook page.

    And, no, no one agrees with your “verbal reasoning” statement, they were going along with you for the sake of argument– Jadehawk asked MANY MANY times why someone with higher verbal reasoning skills would be prevented from writing books and making speeches.

    You can’t even keep your opinions consistent.

    Pls refer to her post!

    I’ll try to explain to this supposedly discrepancy.

    Women have higher verbal abilities. That’s nice. What do they do with it ? No, they don’t discuss endlessly about god. More like what make up to wear, what to cook, if their newly bought dresses look nice and discuss their time of the month.

    You understand what i’m getting at ?

    Verbal ability isn’t a precondition for: i’m good at speaking, so I can speak for whatever stuff. What kind of bullchit reasoning is this, lmao. This reasoning did came from a women, so THATS very telling :D

  94. 594
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    ahmetduran,

    This reasoning did came from a women, so THATS very telling :D

    Why don’t you take yourself and your sexist jokes and fuck off?

  95. 595
    ahmetduran

    You’ve got to be shitting me. You’ve been making my head spin since your first post

    Arguments: zero

    Again:

    womennot involved because less analytical
    Less analytical evidence: women fail at math

    Pls refer the circular reasoning.

  96. 596
    ahmetduran

    Why don’t you take yourself and your sexist jokes and fuck off?

    Lol, I’ve been called a lot of things here (chewing cupcake of whatever), but it’s only sexist when men do it I suppose.

  97. 597
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    ahmetduran,

    We have read tons of bullshit from you and not one of use came to the conclusion “ahmetduran is talking shit, he’s a man, men are incapable of talking anything but shit”.

    You take a comment by a woman, interpret it wrongly but whatever, and suddenly it’s got something to do with all women!? And you say you are not basing all your opinions on this on stereotypes?

  98. 598
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    I like that ahmetduran is *such* a coward. Nothing screams “My misogyny is the direct result of my low self-esteem” louder than cowardice.

  99. 599
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Bah.

    Post number 367 from the first page:

    ahmetduran:
    I’m not doing your fucking research for you. You made the claim, you have to back that shit up.

    Did you read your own links? From the first one:

    First, the average sex difference is very small; a confidence interval for it covers zero, though the interval lies mainly on the side of male advantage. Second, sex differences in performance are decreasing over the years.

    Once again, the paper doesn’t appear to address why there are sex differences. But seeing as they are decreasing one can reasonably assume that there aren’t inherent intellectual differences between men and women, otherwise the data would remain static, wouldn’t it?

    Jesus fucking Christ.

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/12/13/welp-im-all-convinced-and-stuff-now/comment-page-1/#comment-512254

    And 370:

    And the second link:

    Moving to cross-country comparisons, we find that earlier results linking the gender gap in math to measures of gender equality are sensitive to the inclusion of Muslim countries, where in spite of women’s low status, there is little or no gender gap in math.

    How do you account for there being no gender gap in math in some countries?

    Did you read your own links?

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/12/13/welp-im-all-convinced-and-stuff-now/comment-page-1/#comment-512258

  100. 600
    ahmetduran

    Dude, do a search for my name. I’ll help you out: the relevant posts are on the first page.

    Narrow it down broskie. Lots of posts there

  101. 601
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    ahmetduran,

    Cupcake or whatever is sexist now? Fuck off.

  102. 602
    ahmetduran

    I can’t find the post of the red avatar girl that critiqued the experimental paradigm that linked analytical thinking with disbelief in god :( feelsbadman

  103. 603
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Stop telling people to do work for you.

  104. 604
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Lol, I’ve been called a lot of things here (chewing cupcake of whatever), but it’s only sexist when men do it I suppose.

    LOl wow you are an extreme dipshit, aren’t you. You’ve done nothing but puke sexism all over this thread. And, while everyone is mocking your cowardly, unintelligent, bigotted ass, NO ONE has said anything to you remotely sexist towards men.

    You’re a disgusting liar, a pathetic bigot and a ridiculous coward. I’m starting to pity you.

  105. 605
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    No, they don’t discuss endlessly about god. More like what make up to wear, what to cook, if their newly bought dresses look nice and discuss their time of the month.

    You understand what i’m getting at ?

    Yes. You have never actually met a real woman and had a conversation with her.

    (No, your Real Doll doesn’t count.)

  106. 606
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    I did narrow it down asshole. I know you’re extremely fucking stupid, but do try to keep up.

    Also, there are only men on the internet, amIright?

  107. 607
    ahmetduran

    Cupcake or whatever is sexist now? Fuck off.

    yes, i’m very much offended by don’t. [skepchick]Girls, pls don’t do that.[/skepchick]

    Btw, what about my totally new explanations, you guys seem to be ignoring that

    Men are better at abstract stuff then women.
    Suggestive evidence: philosophy, math, hard science don’t attract females.

  108. 608
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    (No, your Real Doll doesn’t count.)

    She’s got a puncture anyway.

  109. 609
    ahmetduran

    I did narrow it down asshole.

    Narrow it down means post nr, not page 1 ya white knight phaggot

  110. 610
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Stop using ‘girls’ that way

  111. 611
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Wait, do you not know how to do an search on the page you’re looking at, ahmet?

    LOLLOLLOL!

  112. 612
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Men are better at abstract stuff then women.
    Suggestive evidence: philosophy, math, hard science don’t attract females.

    Poor dumbass cupcake doesn’t understand what the word “evidence” means! that’s the problem here.

    Dumbass cupcake thinks it means ‘whatever i personally feel like is true’.

    Poor thing!

  113. 613
    Jadehawk

    Also because, according to you at least, “girls” do better at verbal reasoning.

    your reading comprehension sucks.

  114. 614
    rr

    ahmetduran:

    Ask politely and maybe I’ll reconsider

    Would you consider writing something intelligent?

  115. 615
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Suggestive evidence: philosophy, math, hard science don’t attract females.

    Why is your anecdote evidence, but mine is shit?

    Signed,
    an applied mathematician

  116. 616
    Pteryxx

    No, they don’t discuss endlessly about god.

    …You’re on a blog network full of atheist bloggers and commenters who blog and comment about atheism, and many of them are women. FFS.

  117. 617
    ahmetduran

    Yes. You have never actually met a real woman and had a conversation with her.

    (No, your Real Doll doesn’t count.)

    Pls google what ‘averages’ mean and then come back.

    I don’t claim no single girl discuss endlessly about god, I claim that girls discuss far less about god than men do.

    Anecdotal evidence is weak as phuck. Seriously, do you even science ?

  118. 618
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    And, I’ve been called a “faggot”. You really have no shame, do you, ahmet?

    Here’s a clue: scroll the fuck up to 592– I copy and pasted everything for you, you useless crusty asshole.

  119. 619
    Artemis

    This comment

    Women have higher verbal abilities. That’s nice. What do they do with it ? No, they don’t discuss endlessly about god. More like what make up to wear, what to cook, if their newly bought dresses look nice and discuss their time of the month.

    makes me think that ahmetduran is just an internet troll wasting out time. Nobody can be this clueless for real, can they? This sounds like he never even met an actual woman in real life.

  120. 620
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Stop using ‘girls’ that way.

  121. 621
    ahmetduran

    …You’re on a blog network full of atheist bloggers and commenters who blog and comment about atheism, and many of them are women. FFS.

    Lol another one that don’t know what ‘on average’ means
    Dat dere american education I presume.

    Get a brain morans!

  122. 622
    nms

    No circular reasoning ;)

    After a scholastic re-reading of your posts, I’ll agree: you aren’t making a circular argument, you’re just begging the question.

    Narrow it down means post nr

    Maybe red avatar girl will help you look.

  123. 623
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    And back the fuck off with variations of “faggot” RIGHT FUCKING NOW DOUCHE.

  124. 624
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Anecdotal evidence is weak as phuck.

    All you gave us are anecdotes and stereotypes.

    Seriously, you tell people that they don’t know science, while your genius explanation is “yo bro, everyone knows chicks don’t dig math”

  125. 625
    Pteryxx

    Apparently ahmetduran’s great and powerful analytical abilities can’t distinguish between “none” and “less than”.

  126. 626
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Dat dere american education I presume.

    ahmetduran thinks he’s the only European who managed to figure out how internet works. Shame he still hasn’t figured out words and the fact that they have meanings.

  127. 627
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    white knight phaggot

    A misogynist AND a homophobe. Almost a trifeca bigot. C’mon Dumbass cupcake, bust out the racism now. Go for the Useless Sack of Rotten Fetid Monkey Vomit Award for today!

  128. 628
    ahmetduran

    makes me think that ahmetduran is just an internet troll wasting out time. Nobody can be this clueless for real, can they? This sounds like he never even met an actual woman in real life.

    Then you didn’t understand my post.

    Someone said: since girls are better at verbal skills, then why aren’t they suited for the nerd community because they will be all book talking and chit.

    But the obvious mistake the person makes is that ‘verbal skills’ doesn’t mean that they can talk about whatever subject. Individuals talk about what they prefer and within the sex of girls, talking about an abstract god, testing ideas and discussing with others is not a part of that.

    Verbal skills mean more like:
    male: hey bro, sup?
    Females: oh hai stephanie, how are you feeling right now, tell me all about your insecurities girlfiend, love you <3<3<3<3<3<3 live love laugh love you so much baby boo <3<3<3<3

    (more or less, exaggeration is possible)

  129. 629
    Pteryxx

    Correction: he can’t distinguish between “none”, “less than”, “average”, and “statistically insignificant”.

  130. 630
    ahmetduran

    A misogynist AND a homophobe. Almost a trifeca bigot. C’mon Dumbass cupcake, bust out the racism now. Go for the Useless Sack of Rotten Fetid Monkey Vomit Award for today!

    wut you talkin about cracka

    I’m not a homophobe. I support the LGBTcommunity. Faggot =/=phaggot

  131. 631
    pHred

    Ugh – it’s clearly rabid. Can’t read, can’t write, can’t reason, can’t use HTML and thinks average means the most common things I find in my basement hideout.

  132. 632
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Pteryxx,

    None, less than, all … the words all refer to quantity so it’s all more or less the same, right? He chooses whichever word he feels like using in a particular sentence.

  133. 633
    Gregory Greenwood

    ahmetduran @ 589;

    I’ve been called a lot of things here (chewing cupcake of whatever), but it’s only sexist when men do it I suppose.

    How is the term ‘cupcake’, in the context of an insult, sexist all of a sudden? It was created to be a specifically non-gendered term of contempt, so I would be very interested to learn how it has suddenly acquired a sexist connotation.

    Also, accusing other people of sexism when you have written such things as the following @ 586;

    Women have higher verbal abilities. That’s nice. What do they do with it ? No, they don’t discuss endlessly about god. More like what make up to wear, what to cook, if their newly bought dresses look nice and discuss their time of the month.

    Is rather ridiculous – here you make grossly patronising assumptions about what ‘women’ as a generalised group talk about that seem to have been imported directly from the most misogynistic phase of the 1950s. Where is your basis for this belittling attitude toward womens’ capacity for conversation? I somehow doubt there are many scientifically credible studies purporting to demonstrate that ‘most’ women like to talk about cookery, fashion, make up and their menstrual cycles to the exclusion of more ‘analytical’ topics, so I wonder where you get this belief from, other than your own confirmation bias about the supposed intellectual inferiority of women.

    And there is a term for an attitude that assumes that women are less capable based solely upon their gender. Now what was it…

    Oh yes – sexism.

  134. 634
    ahmetduran

    Apparently ahmetduran’s great and powerful analytical abilities can’t distinguish between “none” and “less than”.

    You need to be more specific and relate it to mr post nr.

  135. 635
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    ahmetduran,

    STOP using any variation of the word faggot, you homophobic shitbag.

  136. 636
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    You need to shut your fucking mouth, ahmet.

  137. 637
    Jadehawk

    suddenly nobody asks for a study to back this up, they happily accept it :) )

    “they” don’t, actually. fucking earn to read for comprehension.

    Math is indeed the salient measure BECAUSE we are talking about analytical stuff.

    evidence or it didn’t happen.

    Math is a part of that.

    if “that” is supposed to be atheism and/or skepticism, I want to see the mathematical formula one needs to master to deconvert, disbelieve in UFOs or bigfoot, etc.

    Verbal ability is, to my knowledge, not an index of analytical skills.

    I pity anyone who’s ever had to grade a paper of yours, then.

    I don’t know how I would interpret these findings and relate it to explain the dependent variable.

    yeah, that’s evident.

    No circular reasoning ;)

    superdense.
    you don’t know any such thing, you infer it from the data you’re trying to explain. that’s circular, since the logic goes “lower scores in math/philosophy/science are explained because women have lesser analytical ability; the evidence that women have have less analytical skill is that they have lower scores in math/philosophy/science”

    using that sort of logic, I could show that it’s actually because boys are telepathic and can read professor’s minds. the evidence for that is in the scores, you know. [/sarc]

    No, they don’t discuss endlessly about god. More like what make up to wear, what to cook, if their newly bought dresses look nice and discuss their time of the month.

    your unsubstantiated prejudices are not a valid argument

    yes, i’m very much offended by don’t.

    irrelevant, since that’s not what makes something sexist.

    Btw, what about my totally new explanations, you guys seem to be ignoring that

    your failure to read does not constitute ignoring of your arguments on our part.

    Men are better at abstract stuff then women.
    Suggestive evidence: philosophy, math, hard science don’t attract females.

    more assumption of conclusions.

  138. 638
    ahmetduran

    Itt: arguments are deflected under the rug of sexism.

    Feminists gonna feminists.

    @gregory greenwood: I explain what I meant in that post of mine, just see a couple of posts up (now I understand why people don’t refer to numbers, it’s a tedious job to scroll back and forth)

  139. 639
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    ahmetduran,

    If you don’t want to be accused of sexism stop using every sexist argument in the book.

  140. 640
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Yo, shitbag. Comment 592. Chop chop.

  141. 641
    Jadehawk

    Ugh – it’s clearly rabid.

    indeed. whatever coherence d00d might have ever possessed has disintegrated, and I doubt he’d be any more coherent in dutch

  142. 642
    throwaway

    I have suggestive evidence that any person that spends an inordinately large proportion of their time on the subset of the internet associated loosely with the *chans (such as 4ch/MISC/reddit) end up as blathering, meme-spouting sexist idiots.

  143. 643
    ahmetduran

    <blockquoteevidence or it didn’t happen.

    You want evidence for the claim that ‘math = analytical’.

    You just went full retard

    if “that” is supposed to be atheism and/or skepticism, I want to see the mathematical formula one needs to master to deconvert, disbelieve in UFOs or bigfoot, etc.

    Lol, is that how you perceive the link between analytical and disbelief in god ? My god, you females and math are something.

    Let me try to explain. Math is an index for analytical skills. This means that if you score high on any particular math test implicates that you have an highly analytical brain (compared to people who score low on math tests and thus are presumed to have a low analytical brain). Now, we also happen to know that an analytical brain is more likely to disbelief in god. Magic word is MORE LIKELY. (so pls don’t say: herp derp newton was analytical and believed in god derp)

    At least thank you for responding rationally on the subject, you at least try :)

  144. 644
    Jadehawk

    arguments are deflected under the rug of sexism.

    liar, or dumber than a bag of rocks? or simply in denial of the fact that his “arguments” have been deconstructed in their pathetic, measily entirety?

  145. 645
    Amphiox

    Just for fun, I will also point out now that mathematics is a form of language, and that written language is a form of mathematical code, and that the parsing of written language is an exercise in the analysis of informational code.

    Therefore, IF it is true that females are superior at verbal reasoning, while males are superior at say, visuo-spatial reasoning, it does not follow from any of that that the potential of female performance in math should necessarily be precluded from ever being equal to or superior to, that of males.

    As with most complex behaviors, math does not constitute a single cognitive skill of domain of function, but of several. Perhaps it will turn out that females on average do math “differently” with a different weighting to the varying cognitive domains that make up math, than males on average. It does not follow from that that one gender or the other is biologically or even sociologically predetermined to do better than the other.

    There is more than one way to skin a cat. Or read a map. Or write a sonnet. Or derive a proof.

  146. 646
    nms

    This comment makes me think that ahmetduran is just an internet troll wasting out time. Nobody can be this clueless for real, can they? This sounds like he never even met an actual woman in real life.

    I think ahmetduran is a computational linguist’s lab project which escaped into the wild.

  147. 647
    ahmetduran

    I have suggestive evidence that any person that spends an inordinately large proportion of their time on the subset of the internet associated loosely with the *chans (such as 4ch/MISC/reddit) end up as blathering, meme-spouting sexist idiots.

    But you don’t understand! Somebody is wrong on the internet!!!

    But in all seriousness, I’m just testing my ideas.

    I had these 4 explanations in mind and thought of using it in a ‘female environment’. Gotta admit, lulz were had, but more importantly: I just want to know what kind of arguments feminists have. Turned out they don’t have any besides calling the person ‘sexist’ :D

    Feelsgoodman.

    I stick around, because I’ve read a pretty decent post of the red avatar person, but can’t seem to find it. After that, i’ll pack my bags. Lulz were certainly had :)

  148. 648
    PZ Myers

    Let me know when you people are all done shredding ahmetduran. Now that he’s throwing around bigoted insults, I’m ready to ban him any time.

    But if you’re having fun ripping him up, I don’t want to ruin the game.

    (My head will be down in papers for a while…I’ll check back when I come up for air.)

  149. 649
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    ahmetduran,

    You just went full retard

    STOP using ableist remarks.

    Shithead is going through the list of everything that is unacceptable here. I doubt it’s coincidental. He’s deliberately trolling.

  150. 650
    nms

    Is spouting stupid reddit memes a bannable offense?

    If not, shouldn’t it be?

  151. 651
    Jadehawk

    Lol, is that how you perceive the link between analytical and disbelief in god ?

    no darling, that’s what the link between math and disbelief would have to be.

    the fact that analytical thinking is the main correlation with atheism is the next step in the chain of your fractal wrongness.

    Math is an index for analytical skills.

    based on what evidence?

    . This means that if you score high on any particular math test implicates that you have an highly analytical brain

    incorrect. scoring higher on a test measures your ability to score higher on that test. only after eliminating other variables can such a test measure actual skills.

    Now, we also happen to know that an analytical brain is more likely to disbelief in god.

    we don’t, actually. we have a correlation, which is actually far more likely to be caused by class differences and differences in educational status rather than “analytical brain” BS. also, your silly essentialism is noted.

  152. 652
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Ah yed, can’t back up an argument so it was all for the lulz. How original.

  153. 653
    ahmetduran

    Perhaps it will turn out that females on average do math “differently” with a different weighting to the varying cognitive domains that make up math

    Hehe, reminds me of the episode of the simpsons were Lisa get’s a female friendly version of math. Good times.

    That’s pretty much the feminist strategy indeed. When girls fail at math, they just want to change the math.
    When females don’t get selected for a business environment, they’ll just change the environment and fit right in that way.

  154. 654
    Amphiox

    Math is an index for analytical skills.

    Still doing the reversal fallacy I see. You do realize, duranahmet, don’t you, that verbal REASONING is ALSO an “index” for analytical skills?

  155. 655
    ahmetduran

    Yes, I follow genderstudies (aka women studies), so I know a thing or two about vagina shenanigans

  156. 656
    Jadehawk

    I’m ready to ban him any time.

    go ahead. he’s worthless, but SIWOTI is interfering with the project I absolutely must finish by 5pm.

  157. 657
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    So, cupcake, how do you account for official atheist groups like (gasp) SecularWoman or conferences like Women in Skepticism or social network groups like Atheist and Agnostic Crafters (Ravelry, a huge group) or Crafting without Religion (FB, way way smaller).

    For that matter, how do you account for the perception that knitting, crochet, needlepoint, weaving, and the like are female-gendered activities in our culture, despite the fact that they are chock full of (gasp) mathematics? (Indeed, crochet can be used to model hyperbolic geometry despite the fact that mathematicians used to say that accurate construction of hyperbolic models was impossible.)

    Even as skeptical a sciencey-man-man as Richard Feynman recognized this in a 1966 speech to science teachers. (Dated language, but excellent analysis of the importance of the vocabulary we use to describe mathematical and scientific concepts.)

  158. 658
    throwaway

    Turned out they don’t have any besides calling the person ‘sexist’

    At least the association between you and sexism is directly observable and not in question. Your “theories”, not so much.

  159. 659
    ahmetduran

    She attends her first-period math class, taught by the new principal, but instead of usual number-crunching, she starts speaking about feelings and smell in math. While the other girls enjoy it, Lisa asks whether they will get down to doing problems, to which the principal replies that problems are how boys look at math.

    If you don’t know this episode, then you haven’t lived life

  160. 660
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    He’s boring, PZ. Ban away.

  161. 661
    Amphiox

    When girls fail at math, they just want to change the math.
    When females don’t get selected for a business environment, they’ll just change the environment and fit right in that way.

    So what? If such a change results in females doing better at math, thus DOUBLING the potential pool of mathematical skill that humanity can draw upon to solve its collective problems, or performing better in the business environment, thus DOUBLING the potential pool of economic ability for humanity to draw upon, how is this not anything but a good thing?

    Is it not the RESULT that matters? You babble on and on about differences between average math scores between men and women, but what about the AGGREGATE AVERAGE math scores for all humans? Don’t you want to RAISE it? Doesn’t everyone win when it goes up?

  162. 662
    Jadehawk

    ‘female environment’

    a what now? god, this d00d is a toxic bag of bigoted shit; ableism, sexism, homophobia, toxic masculinity. pretty much the only things missing are transphobia and racism

  163. 663
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    transphobia and racism

    Don’t worry, I’m sure those are next on the list.

  164. 664
    Jadehawk

    If you don’t know this episode, then you haven’t lived life

    and this is the fuckweasel who’s been whining about “anecdotes” for 2 pages now?

  165. 665
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Give him time, Jadehawk.

  166. 666
    ahmetduran

    So, cupcake, how do you account for official atheist groups like (gasp) SecularWoman or conferences like Women in Skepticism or social network groups like Atheist and Agnostic Crafters (Ravelry, a huge group) or Crafting without Religion (FB, way way smaller).

    Lol, dumb post is dumb. It’s already hotly debated why there aren’t much females in the nerd community.
    Even tough females have those kind of groups (who says they didn’t), the RATIO between females in those communities and POTENTIAL females is weak.

    You guys are dumb as chit, srs.

  167. 667
    ahmetduran

    Okay, i’m out for now.

    Don’t hate me cause you girls were born ugly. It’s in my nature to select for attractive girls.

    Y’all mad ?

  168. 668
    Jadehawk

    Turned out they don’t have any besides calling the person ‘sexist’ :D

    like a creationist. it’s almost as if I hadn’t linked to one large study and a meta-study debunking the “girls suck at math” BS, and it’s as if I hadn’t deconstructed his faulty reasoning. st00pid cupcake

  169. 669
    Amphiox

    She attends her first-period math class, taught by the new principal, but instead of usual number-crunching, she starts speaking about feelings and smell in math. While the other girls enjoy it, Lisa asks whether they will get down to doing problems, to which the principal replies that problems are how boys look at math.

    If you don’t know this episode, then you haven’t lived life

    Poor, poor duranahmet.

    His description of that classic episode is a stunning indicator of he completely missed the point of the joke in that episode.

    A human being so deficient in verbal reasoning skills that he cannot properly comprehend and thus properly enjoy the humor of The Simpsons is a man who leads a dull, bleak life, and who doesn’t even have the cognitive werewithal to realize what he is missing.

    Damn that Y chromosome!

  170. 670
    Jadehawk

    Don’t hate me cause you girls were born ugly. It’s in my nature to select for attractive girls.

    lol. boy is such a failure. “oh YEAH?! well, you’re ugly” is totes brilliant argumentation

  171. 671
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    The best argumentation we can get from ahmetduran.

  172. 672
    SallyStrange

    Don’t hate me cause you girls were born ugly. It’s in my nature to select for attractive girls.

    Y’all mad ?

    Low quality trolling.

  173. 673
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    Select away, douchebag – anything that keeps you away from the women here is a good thing. For that matter, I bet we could make a fortune if we could bottle and sell some of that keep-away potion to women who don’t trigger your feminist-low-value-ugly detection system…

  174. 674
    pHred

    I’m with Jadehawk – please ban him – this has disintegrated exactly like he is working through a checklist to see what he can get away with. There is no merit now. This is just ugly and smelling up the joint.

    Besides, I should be grading not watching this mess. : )

  175. 675
    PZ Myers

    Ahmetduran has been sent to that place where all worn-out squeaky toys end their days.

  176. 676
    Amphiox

    Don’t hate me cause you girls were born ugly.

    duranahmet, expert at backwards logic, apparently thinks that it is an appropriately analytical thing to do to make judgments on the physical appearance of people it knows only through words.

  177. 677
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    My name is Talky Tina, and I think I could even hate ahmet.

  178. 678
    Tethys

    ahmetduran is a chew toy with the squeaker gone, go ahead and ban his rancid ass anytime PZ.

    Mattir

    For that matter, how do you account for the perception that knitting, crochet, needlepoint, weaving, and the like are female-gendered activities in our culture, despite the fact that they are chock full of (gasp) mathematics? (Indeed, crochet can be used to model hyperbolic geometry despite the fact that mathematicians used to say that accurate construction of hyperbolic models was impossible.)

    And who discovered that you can model hyperbolic space with crochet? :gasp: A woman named Daina Taimina

    So from this example it is easy to deduce that when women are not prevented from working in areas that are traditionallly male, huge scientific gains are made by looking at a problem with a new perspective.

    /checkmate sexist assholes

  179. 679
    Pteryxx

    More writeups on Kane and Mertz, 2011, from the American Mathematical Society: (full pdf linked from Starts with a Bang):

    http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/01/06/surprise-surprise-gender-equal/

    Over the past generation, however, standardized tests in the United States have seen that gender gap completely disappear. First among elementary and middle schoolers, then among high schoolers, and today, male and female students achieve identical average math scores on the SATs.

    It gets better:

    The percent of students scoring above 400 (low) and above 550 (high) rise dramatically, among both genders, when there’s greater equity among men and women! In other words, every step forward that a country takes towards eliminating the gender disparity in the economic, political, and educational realms leads to greater math achievement for both genders.

    But I’ll give you the conclusions of the authors themselves:

    In summary, we conclude that gender equity and other sociocultural factors, not national income, school type, or religion per se, are the primary determinants of mathematics performance at all levels for both boys and girls. Our findings are consistent with the gender stratified hypothesis, but not with the greater male variability, gap due to inequity, single-gender classroom, or Muslim culture hypotheses. At the individual level, this conclusion suggests that well-educated women who earn a good income are much better positioned than are poorly educated women who earn little or no money to ensure that the educational needs of their children of either gender with regard to learning mathematics are well met.

    Quoted from a writeup in i09: http://io9.com/5867401/

    Kane: “We found that boys — as well as girls — tend to do better in math when raised in countries where females have better equality, and that’s new and important. It makes sense that when women are well-educated and earn a good income, the math scores of their children of both genders benefit.”

    Mertz: “Many folks believe gender equity is a win-lose zero-sum game: If females are given more, males end up with less. Our results indicate that, at least for math achievement, gender equity is a win-win situation.”

  180. 680
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Good riddance.

  181. 681
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    I think I totally called on the recess at kindergarten. He can’t spell, can’t type a coherent sentence, uses passe interent memes and is scraping the bottom of the barrell, bigotrywise.

    its also pretty clear that he’s delighting in so much female attention. Must be pretty starved for it IRL, though I just *can’t* imagine why.

    Ban the bigot, plz.

  182. 682
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    And Pteryxx does in one comment what the hilariously incompetent bigot couldn’t do in many – evidence.

    *holds up Bigot Smasher crown for Pteryxx *

  183. 683
    Amphiox

    oooh, I can’t resist anymore. Especially now that the chewtoy distraction is gone.

    I’m going to present my own crazy ridiculous conspiracy theory concerning the dearth of females in the skeptic/atheist movement.

    See people, it is because, contrary to popular belief, the skeptic/atheist movement isn’t about rational thinking. Not at all. Actually, at its base and heart, it is an expression of male primate dominance behavior. (And hyperskepticism the more primal, distilled, extreme version of the same)

    Humans are social creatures, who exchange information between each other. Judging the reliability of said exchanged information is an intellectual exercise, when done in private and in one’s own mind, with a view towards using that information for one’s own purposes.

    That, however, is not actually what the skeptic/atheist movement is about. The movement is actually about publicly communicating skepticism of popular claims.

    See, when an individual makes a fact claim in public, that individual is in fact making a claim of authority on that subject, and through that authority is attempting to secure status within the community to which the communication is made. To accept that claim is to accept that authority, to acquiese to that status, to submit.

    To reject that claim is instead a challenge to that authority, and an attempt to take the status associated with that authority for oneself.

    Gorillas beat their chests and hoot. Humans make blog posts and youtube videos.

    And that is why these so-called skeptics are so adverse to letting a woman have a forum, and to shutting up and listening to her. To them the act of listening is an act of submission. And these prancing male primates simply cannot bear to even appear to admit to having a lower social status than a female of the same species.

    Which is also why there are so many males and so few females in the movement. Because the movement is a forum for male dominance behaviour, and female primates on average are more biologically inclined to watch such displays from the sidelines than to get into the arena themselves.

  184. 684
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    What are the chances that the boy ends up teaching? How many women are going to have to deal with that boy in an academic or professional situation? How many women is this boy going to help to discourage?

    The boy is a disgusting large shitstain.

  185. 685
    Zigbot

    It’s funny how it’s always the men who have nothing going for them intellectually that will obsess over these slight statistical differences, isn’t it? And always only the categories where men as a class have been found to have an edge, and always with an insistence that the results can’t mean anything other than “men are better than women” and a refusal to acknowledge counter-data, even if it comes from the same studies they cite. It’s a very mysterious phenomenon. As a simple woman, I can only conclude that it must have something to do with how great at “analytical reasoning” they are.

  186. 686
    pHred

    @Amphiox

    Oh lordy – I suddenly have an image in my head from a conference I presented at a few months ago where some guy was trying to get into an argument with me about Rietveld refinement of a crystalline lattice structure, which I had already explained was not relevant to the question at hand (he was actually agreeing with me, but from some reason was doing it belligerently and at the top of his lungs)

    And now – bam – I see him suddenly as a Gorilla throwing leaves over his head and beating his chest. Thanks – now it is going to be all I can do not to burst out laughing at this ilk at the next meeting.

    BTW – I am female, look younger than my actual age (which is a serious disadvantage!) and have long strawberry red hair. Wrong tribe for these guys completely.

  187. 687
    Pteryxx

    Thanks, Illuminata. *sits in crown like a nest*

  188. 688
    Pteryxx

    pHred:

    where some guy was trying to get into an argument with me about Rietveld refinement of a crystalline lattice structure, which I had already explained was not relevant to the question at hand (he was actually agreeing with me, but from some reason was doing it belligerently and at the top of his lungs)

    Reminds me of what Joan Roughgarden recounts (the MTF biologist who challenged Darwinian sexual selection):

    THE scientific establishment, Joan said, was livid. But in contrast to the response to her earlier theory about tide pools and marine animals, few scientists engaged with her. At a workshop at Loyola University, a scientist “lost it” and started screaming at her for being irresponsible. “I had never had experiences of anyone trying to coerce me in this physically intimidating way,” she said, as she compared the reactions to her work before and after she became a woman. “You really think this guy is really going to come over and hit you.”

    At a meeting of the Ecological Society of America in Minneapolis, Joan said, a prominent expert jumped up on the stage after her talk and started shouting at her. Once every month or two, she said, ”I will have some man shout at me, try to physically coerce me into stopping …When I was doing the marine ecology work, they did not try to physically intimidate me and say, ‘You have not read all the literature.’

    “They would not assume they were smarter. The current crop of objectors assumes they are smarter.”

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/how-the-sex-bias-prevails-20100514-v4mv.html

  189. 689
    opposablethumbs

    Wow. ahmetduran started out looking merely (very) obtuse; now he’s really got his eyes on the prize – does he win Most Pathetic or Most Likely to Compare Unfavourably With Something I Scraped off the Sole of my Shoe?

    Come on, ahmetduran, let’s have your opinions on race and socio-economic status. You already demonstrated that you are sexist and a homophobe, so you haven’t got far to go to complete the set. Hey, why are there fewer poor people than well-off people prominent in the atheist and secularist movements? Guess poor people just suck at maths, amirite? And why are most of the big-name atheists white? Guess non-whites just suck at analytical thinking, yeah?

  190. 690
    vaiyt

    She attends her first-period math class, taught by the new principal, but instead of usual number-crunching, she starts speaking about feelings and smell in math. While the other girls enjoy it, Lisa asks whether they will get down to doing problems, to which the principal replies that problems are how boys look at math.

    What a beautiful story! Here, let me tell one as well.

    It starts with: “When Mr. Bilbo Baggins of Bag End announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Hobbiton…”

  191. 691
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    I have a hard time believing any of his claimed credentials were true. He put on the façade of an educated educator in a desperate attempt to give his misogynistic horseshit the façade of credibility.

    And, when that completely and utterly failed, (ignorance + incompetence = failure) his true colors came out – straight up bigot trolling.

    At best, he’s a highschooler on xmas break.

  192. 692
    sharculese

    @Pteryxx:

    Reminds me of what Joan Roughgarden recounts (the MTF biologist who challenged Darwinian sexual selection):

    Is Joan Roughgarden’s science any good? I’ve read Evolution’s Rainbow (my brother had it from a philosophy of science course) and I thought it was interesting, but I’m not qualified to judge the quality of her arguments.

  193. 693
    Stephanie Zvan

    Lol another one that don’t know what ‘on average’ means

    Actually, child, it’s been you who has repeatedly demonstrated that he doesn’t understand “on average”. I note that you still haven’t responded to my first post in this thread that demonstrates how ridiculous your claim that something has happened because of average differences is. So here, instead, I’ll explain it in more concrete terms and with less snark. Judging by your attempts at humor, you’re not actually very good with snark.

    I will assume, only for the sake of argument and despite the fact that tests of reasoning do in fact contain verbal components, that math is exactly equal to analysis. I will also assume, only for the sake of argument, that we are dealing with a population in which there is a slight difference between men and women in average ability at math. I will finally assume, only for the sake of argument, that there is a precise relationship between analysis (as captured by math performance) and atheism or skepticism or whatever topic you want to change it to when other people point out that your assumptions are full of shit.

    So, picture to yourself two nearly overlapping normal distributions, with the center of each to either side of a score of 100. Since we’re assuming that analysis equals math, we might as well they both equal IQ, and besides, people know what that distribution looks like. The center of one (for the men) is about five points to the right of the center of the other (for women).

    Now you draw a vertical line toward the right of that set of distributions, set so that to the right of it is 8% of the overall population from both distributions combined. On this distribution, that score is right about 122.

    This means that on the right of this line are your atheists, as determined by their math scores. Note that about 6% of the women in your sample are still in this group. More men than that, yes, but women are still about a third of the people in that 8%.

    Even granting you every single one of your dubious claims, if you understand averages, you understand that there still should have been one woman out of three on that stage. On average.

  194. 694
    pHred

    @Pteryxx

    I don’t know whether to thank you for that link or just start banging my head on the table. It is so pervasive too. This reminds me of the “service trap” too that female academic get sucked into as well. Pre-tenure (and post-tenure too if they make it) they get stuck with all sorts of scut work (act as meeting secretary, type up final reports, serve on this pointless committee, blah, blah … ) because clearly that is something women do – the men have more important research to be working on.

    ARGH! HULK SMASH!!!!

    I have to do my grading !!!!

  195. 695
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Amphiox, can I play too?

    Contrary to popular belief, the skeptic/atheist movement isn’t about rational thinking. Not at all. At its heart it is a kissing cousin to the Republican political “southern strategy,” but broadened and applied more towards social status and class hierarchy. It is a way for upper-class educated white men, and the chill girls who manage to sneak through, to maintain their feeling of superiority over the people over whom they have always enjoyed higher status… while usually staying off the radar of a culture that increasingly rejects their regressive ideals. It is no coincidence that so much of the skeptic/atheist movement labels itself as libertarian.

    Here’s probably the most famous quote about the southern strategy, from Lee Atwater:

    You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.”

    In a very similar way, skeptics/atheists can go after people who they used to call “poor white trash” by saying “fundamentalist evangelical Christians.” They don’t need to say “camel jockey” when “Muslim extremists” is socially acceptable. They can claim the superiority of “equity feminism” when what they mean is “bitches ain’t shit.” Satan help you if you disagree with them and don’t have 17 doctorates, because only people with advanced degrees are allowed to have opinions on any subject. And so on, for every situation where maintaining both the privilege and esteem-boosting effects of being an upper-class educated white man lording it over others is on the schedule.

    They don’t care why women and non-whites and working-class people aren’t a higher percentage of their movement, because they don’t WANT any of “those sort of people” around in the first place. Well, maybe a couple of them to set up chairs and make the coffee and clean up afterwards, but you only need a few at each meeting, right?

  196. 696
    rq

    Amphiox @513
    Thank you very much for that information/heads up. It has, as was mentioned, made this thread worthwhile (or at least, as much of it as I have read).
    Funny these cultural shifts. One gets the distinct feeling that we have, in fact, been moving somewhat backwards, rather than forwards, in the field of women’s rights.

  197. 697
    mildlymagnificent

    (Indeed, crochet can be used to model hyperbolic geometry despite the fact that mathematicians used to say that accurate construction of hyperbolic models was impossible.)

    An image just popped into my mind from yeeeaars ago. Sitting at a meeting discussing business stuff and one woman was crocheting/knitting strange little thingies. Turns out she’d found this was the best way to give her students understandable DNA models. Too long ago now to remember any details – basically my mind was overwhelmed at the size of the task making all these little gadgets for a whole year 12 biology group.

  198. 698
    margareth

    Umm…, I’m a girl atheist, but I don’t do needlepoint.

  199. 699
    Ichthyic

    Is Joan Roughgarden’s science any good?

    she lost the plot years ago, but her original work on endosymbiosis was seminal.

    seriously, you can very safely ignore her proclamations regarding evolutionary theory.

  200. 700
    Ichthyic

    If you don’t know this episode, then you haven’t lived life

    that, right there, is why nobody should have ever bothered with this shitstain to begin with; it was patently obvious from early on that he is mostly informed by what he views as “popular culture”, in this case, the Simpsons.

    I agree with those thinking it a high school student. at best.

    *pinches self to remember not to waste time on morons*

  201. 701
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    I see our chew toy has been banned. Done with the last exam.

    And now for the drinking. I’ve enjoyed watching the flensing, as always. Thank you all.

  202. 702
    Jadehawk

    it was patently obvious from early on that he is mostly informed by what he views as “popular culture”, in this case, the Simpsons.

    a misunderstanding of the Simpsons, no less.

    I agree with those thinking it a high school student. at best.

    would mean his facebook site is fake, too. not unheard of of course, but it seems more parsimonious that he’s simply Belgium’s answer to creationists with PhDs

  203. 703
    Inaji

    Ichthyic:

    I agree with those thinking it a high school student. at best.

    I tend to stay away from such assumptions, given the amount of times they have been made about many of us. It’s hardly a rarity for an adult to display such immaturity.

  204. 704
    Nepenthe

    Umm…, I’m a girl atheist, but I don’t do needlepoint.

    Good. Needlepoint is basically the lowest form of textile art.

    /trolling

  205. 705
    margareth

    Needlepoint is basically the lowest form of textile art.

    Nah. That would be hooking rugs.

  206. 706
    A. Noyd

    Amphiox (#638)

    Just for fun, I will also point out now that mathematics is a form of language, and that written language is a form of mathematical code, and that the parsing of written language is an exercise in the analysis of informational code.

    Indeed. I’d love to know* how the Belgian waffler figures verbal ability requires less analytical competence than math does. Because I’m pretty sure spending last quarter in Classical Japanese using two languages to parse out and determine the meaning of an essay in a third, dead language took a hell of a lot of analysis, even though the only math involved was converting dates between calendar systems. But what do I know?

    ………
    *not really

  207. 707
    Tom Foss

    Ahmet made it clear to me how easy it’d be to come up with a Reddit/4chan version of an Eliza-style chat bot. And like Ahmet, it would repeatedly fail he Turing test.

  208. 708
    Nepenthe

    Nah. That would be hooking rugs.

    … Hooking rugs doesn’t even count as a textile art!

    *grumpy to be outdone*

  209. 709
    John Morales

    Rooking hugs.

  210. 710
    shaenongarrity

    For the record, this was the part where I just started laughing:

    Oh, really. So why is the stereotype that women are nagging harpies who pick fights with their menfolk all the time?

    True, I need to nuance it a bit more. Men argue endlessly about analytic subjects, women argue endlesly about ….non-analytic subjects.

    Because when it’s pointed out to him that the two stereotypes he’s pushing as Science Truth (women are bitchy shrews vs. women are passive dolts) are mutually exclusive, of course, of course he can’t pick just one, so he twists himself into knots trying to find a magical way for both to be true. It’s like when creationists decided Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs.

    What is it with misogynists and calling women “females”? That’s like the number-one misogynist tell.

  211. 711
    dontpanic

    Those of you ‘dissing rug hooking better be joking/trolling. My grandmother was a hooker — out and proud. Took it up at age 50 and did it for another 50 years. If you have a problem with hooking I think you’d better have a word with xmas-tree cat here: protecting the rug at all costs

  212. 712
    Nepenthe

    Dontpanic

    I too was a hooker in my misguided childhood, but I got better. :-p

  213. 713
    John Morales

    shaenongarrity,

    What is it with misogynists and calling women “females”? That’s like the number-one misogynist tell.

    Indeed.

    (A close second is using ‘women’ when they mean ‘woman’)

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