Nov 02 2012

[Thunderdome]

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Open Thread

by PZ Myers

This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.

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1

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

2 November 2012 at 6:47 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Owlmirror,

I think I could tentatively posit that if the “system” running the scientific method became pathological, the scientific method running on that pathological system would not work

Since that sort of pathology is exactly what I’m talking about, I’m not sure why you’re arguing.

With regard to the sort algorithm, if you can’t use it because data swaps itself at random, that means it doesn’t work, even though (and this contrasts with the scientific method as you defined it) it is logically necessary that if you could implement it successfully, it always would.

Why wouldn’t the same be the case, by analogy, for the scientific method? I mean, I’m using “method” analogously to “algorithm”.

Because the scientific method is not an algorithm.

And I think a more rigorous case could be made that the scientific method is basically an algorithm; an interactive proof-system.

“Basically” here is a weasel word: as you’ve described it, and in reality, the scientific method is not invariably truth-preserving.

As I recall, you’ve argued that science does prove things — you haven’t changed your mind on that, have you?

Every time I’ve said that, I’ve made clear that it proves things in the same sense that we use in legal contexts or everyday life, not in the sense it is used in logic and mathematics.
2

Q.E.D

2 November 2012 at 7:13 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Breaking News: Stonewall UK names Scottish cardinal Bigot of the Year and how I fucking hate accommodationists.

Stonewall UK has named Cardinal O’Brien “Bigot of the Year” for his relentless, outspoken calumnies against gay people and gay marriage.

Predictably everyone is scolding Stonewall for not taking a more accomodationist stance. Sponsors are threatening to yank funding.

What O’Brien said:

gay marriage is a “grotesque subversion of a universally accepted human right”. Gay relationships are “harmful to the physical, mental and spiritual wellbeing”.

He then started a defense of marriage type group to politically oppose gay rights in Scotland. When it was pointed out to him that gay marriage did no harm to him and no one was asking him to perform any, he compared the existence of gay marriage to the existence of slavery (i.e., it’s very existence is repugnant and must be fought)

Apparently we live in a society that tolerates the most outrageous bigotry as long as it is religiously motivated. And then, and fucking then, shushes people who call it out loud.

Accomodationists work hand in hand with the religious to preserve their privilege and keep their bigotry beyond reproach in polite society.

Source here
3

chigau (棒や石)

2 November 2012 at 8:55 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes last thread
Hello-kittehz X-wing
*aaawww*
4

anteprepro

2 November 2012 at 9:26 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Apparently we live in a society that tolerates the most outrageous bigotry as long as it is religiously motivated. And then, and fucking then, shushes people who call it out loud.

I’ll let Will Smith explain my initial reaction.

As for my serious reaction: Fuck those fuckers. Double standards, especially ones that entail turning a blind eye to bigotry and opposing people who stand up to that bigotry, piss me off to no end. Really, it is the clearest illustration with what is wrong with religious “moderates”. Hell, it is what is wrong with political “moderates”. They are perfectly silent until someone without privileges is mean enough to “sink to the level” that the assholes with privileges have been operating at the whole time. And then, suddenly, outrage and tolerance of intolerance and JUST AS BAD and why can’t we all just get along. Too bad these ubiquitous self-appointed mediators never show up until someone has the gumption to fucking fight back. When its just one-sided bullying, it apparently isn’t interesting enough for them to give a fuck. They only care when they can tut-tut BOTH SIDES. Otherwise, who cares, amirite?
5

jonmilne

2 November 2012 at 10:01 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Hi guys, more help needed on an email debate. This time it’s with a YEC, and only now (after three emails from him) has he actually come up with some actual “evidence” for his claims. I’m splitting the email into three parts for easier reading. Here’s the first part:

Evolutionists tend to be fraught with “selection and elimination” examples that only put their positions in a bad light by ignoring the seminal evidence supporting the Noahic Flood and hence YEC. The Green River Shale formation is replete with fully preserved fossilized fish (especially catfish), right down to scales, eyes and other intricate detail. To avoid rot and disintegration, they would have had to have been rapidly buried. Some evolutionists have tried to counter that the alkaline condition would preserve them, but alkaline doesn’t work that way at all (CMI’s Tas Walker even commented that alkaline powder’s disintegrative properties is why it is used in dishwashers (http://biblicalgeology.net/General/QA-Topics.html), and even if that dubious statement were true, there is the further problem of avoiding scavengers, which in that hostile environment would be impossible.

As Paul Garner points out in his Answers in Genesis article, “Green River Blues,” (http://www/answersingenesis.org/articles/cm/v19/n3/green-river-blues) among the fossils are those from the extinct shorebird Presbyornis. In stating his case against an old age earth, he writes: “The Presbyornis fossils are even more problematic. Birds have hollow bones that tend not to preserve well in the fossil record. How were these bird bones protected from scavenging and decay for thousands of years until a sufficient numberof the fine annual layers had built up to bury them? ‘Enormous concentrations’ of bird bones are a clear indication that something is seriously wrong with the idea of slow accumulation. Instead, such fossils support the notion of rapid burial.” Garner’s article is well footnoted, and references include evolutionist articles as well as creationist.

As stated by ICR’s John D. Morris, few serious scientists entertain that varves are merely annual events, as bottom-hugging density flows pervade in geologic strata: “In many field observations and in laboratory experiments, multiple laminae can form almost instantaneously in simulated bottom-hugging density flows, now widely recognized as frequent throughout the geologic strata. Few knowledgeable geologists now cling to the myth of one varve equals one year.” (Morris, J. 2007. Varves: Proof for an Old Earth? Acts & Facts: 36(10): 13; http://www.icr.org/article/varves-proof-for-old-earth/) Within that article, he also validly points out the plethora of fossilized species both flora and fauna that present in the formation that are from varied habitats and could only have been washed there but a powerful cataclysm, such as bird fossils “from shorebirds to forest dwellers to ocean feeders.” There are also reptile samples from various locations as well as plants representing upland to sub-tropical species. For much the same discourse and further discussion, see also Morris’s article, “Do Millions of Laminae in the Green River Shales Document Millions of Years?” (http://www.icr.org/article/do-laminae-green-river-shales-document-millions-years/) One of his points there is that one study showed that the laminae varied in occurence by 35% between two instantaneous volcanic ash falls.

Your comments concerning the indications of more pollen in varves in the upper part of the dark layer representing spring shows a basic misunderstanding of how depositions are made, which is related much more to grain size and current or undercurrent activity. In this way, the studies of Guy Berthault should be reviewed (http://geology.ref.ac/berthault/fusion/lamination.htm), who debunks many of the fundamental misconceptions made by traditional sedimentary theory. Likewise, when catastrophes (think the Mount St. Helen’s eruption) or extreme weather conditions occur, varves form very rapidly.

Berthault, like any contrarian researcher, has his critics. One can follow the critique of Kevin R. Henke (http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/creation/berthault/henke.html) and Berthault’s response (http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/creation/berthaul/berthaul.html).

There is also a secular geologic theory that varves form diurnally due to tide activity rather than being seasonal phenomena. At http://creationwiki.org/Varve, it is reported that formations such as the Elatina Formation in South Australia (circa 250 meters thick) could have taken only 60 years to form. (Williams & Schmidt p. 21-25)(Horgan p. 11).

Plus, evolutionists completely disregard the other formations that can’t possibly be explained by Lyellian uniformitarianism. Such an example is illustrated by the John D. Morris article “The Chattanooga Shale, An Evolutionary Enigma” in the November 2012 edition of ICR’s Acts & Facts. (See http://www.icr.org/article/7075)
6

jonmilne

2 November 2012 at 10:08 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

This is the second and final part (my mistake) of the email I received from Mike the YEC.

The rest of your discourse, Jon, borders on the absurd. The scientific process does anything but account for its own fallibility, it tries to conceal it. It’s based on false assumptions that don’t go away because they only compound error and are tainted by a faulty world view. Uniformitarian philosophy is based on a tautology, that the age of the rocks determine the age of fossils and the age of fossils determine the age of the rocks. Secular scientists themselves have admitted that. And since science supposedly admits its fallibility, it has no moral, ethical, logical or even scientific right to preclude the possibility of a supernatural agency to account for nature or the origins of life.

So the scientific method calling for “peer” review is meaningless because founded upon an evolutionary foundation that won’t allow creationist research and findings into its narrow, bigoted scope. So biased and prejudicial “peers” censor anything challenging their sacred cow.

Darwin was an intellectually dishonest poster child whose flawed “natural selection” theory was just waiting for an excuse to be embraced by the educational and scientific community of the time more interested in escaping the dogmatism of the Anglican church than it was in objective research, even though evolution itself is more dogmatic than any organized church religion ever thought of being. He was well aware that the majority of species experienced devolution rather than evolution, as his own personal experience with giant fossils of sloths and rodents revealed. In fact, his bulldog, Thomas Huxley, died without ever acknowledging the scientific soundness of “natural selection” itself.

Even more disgracefully, Darwin failed to even properly credit creationist Edward Blyth’s description of the term (he apparently called it “artificial selection”) in a paper written in 1835 (see, e.g., ICR’s article “Natural Selection-A Creationist’s Idea” as found at http://www.icr.org/article/412) Blyth obviously utilized the concept in a far different slant than did the misdirected Darwin. Blyth saw it as preservative of species rather than as a means of transmutation. Even late evolutionist Loren C. Eiseley admitted that Darwin failed to properly acknowledge Blyth, even though Darwin did admit in his works that he valued Blyth’s opinions. Gould disputed Eiseley’s claim of misaccreditation, but this really misses the mark. The point is, “natural selection” is not the ingenius invention of Darwin by any stretch. He just perverted it to his purposes. Previous naturalists applied it in different capacities. In short, Darwin was hardly the trailblazer he is championed for, and should have directly credited Blyth rather than doing an end run.

RationalWiki’s attempt to explain the Cambrian explosion doesn’t follow logically at all. There’s no transition from soft tissue to the forms that are seen in the Cambrian explosion, although that itself is faulty because often fossils have been found out of sequence and as EBF pointed out, there is no complete stratigraphic record based on this fiction to be found anywhere on earth. Nor can traditional pseudoscience adequately explain polystrate trees without conceding they would have rotted if the strata had been laid down through gradual uniformitarian processes.

In addition, what RW says about the the Cambrian explosion, besides being fundamentally incorrect, are also totally irrelevant. The stark fact remains that just as in Darwin’s time, there is no evidence whatsoever to support transmutational macro evolution in any shape, manner or form. Nor is there evidence to support long ages, as radioisotopic measures are inherently flawed as ICR findings have conclusively shown and the stratigraphic record is much better explained in terms of catastrophic than gradual layers that defy other areas of science and observation.

There is no excuse for public schools not to present point-counterpoint comparisons between evolution and intelligent design and let the students decide for themselves. Thomas Jefferson in particular would have insisted on it for a full disclosure of the facts and the US Supreme Court case of Edwards v. Aguillard (1987) 482 US 578 would most certainly allow it (and which trumps Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, which featured a judge who was in way over his head, in that it was only a District Court case and really decided on different facts anyway). This paragraph capsulizes the main theme of my book, “Evolution: Reductio Ad Absurdum, and Its Meaning for Public Education” (Publishamerica, 2010).

The intellectually dishonest evos unconstitutionally control education by spinning lies and half-truths and suppress tremendous contradictory scientific research. They do so out of fear that when their “theory” is exposed to the light of day, it will be recognized by any discerning reader to be the scientific fraud that it really is. They have no shame with trying to perpetuate in public school textbooks discredited theories such as Haeckel’s recapitulation, the fraudulent horse series, Lucy, Nebraska Man, Piltdown Man, and a host of others as long as it takes to concoct a newer flawed theory that at least can up to years to totally discredit. The Big Bang itself has a severe horizon problem, but you’d never know that from most public school texts.

Both sides should be heard, not one. I say this even though I find evolution utterly preposterous because everyone must decide for themselves based on observations and facts. Anything else is brainwashing, which is what the evos are presently trying to do to our public schoolchildren and general public through our controlled and fraudulent public school system and the bought and paid for mainstream media. Unquestionably the latter is that way politically, and the school merely an extension of that political control.

So yes, as much as help as possible on this one would be enormously appreciated.

Much thanks,

Jon Milne
7

Q.E.D

2 November 2012 at 10:38 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

jonmilne @ 5

Brain transplant. Mike the YEC is both abusing and not using his. It should go to a needy recipient who will make good use of it.
8

A. R

2 November 2012 at 10:51 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes: Don’t forget the radiation beam, fact blasters, high-output stupid shields, LOLdestroyer (basically a LOL-based star destroyer) launching, LOLfighter (LOL TIE fighters) launching, and the DOG-DOGs (walker equivalents)!
9

chigau (棒や石)

2 November 2012 at 10:53 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

jonmilne
That whole thing was an ad for his vanity press book?
10

jonmilne

2 November 2012 at 11:25 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Okay, for some reason, the first part didn’t publish, here it is again:

Hi guys, more help needed on an email debate. This time it’s with a YEC, and only now (after three emails from him) has he actually come up with some actual “evidence” for his claims. I’m splitting the email into three parts for easier reading. Here’s the first part:

Evolutionists tend to be fraught with “selection and elimination” examples that only put their positions in a bad light by ignoring the seminal evidence supporting the Noahic Flood and hence YEC. The Green River Shale formation is replete with fully preserved fossilized fish (especially catfish), right down to scales, eyes and other intricate detail. To avoid rot and disintegration, they would have had to have been rapidly buried. Some evolutionists have tried to counter that the alkaline condition would preserve them, but alkaline doesn’t work that way at all (CMI’s Tas Walker even commented that alkaline powder’s disintegrative properties is why it is used in dishwashers (http://biblicalgeology.net/General/QA-Topics.html), and even if that dubious statement were true, there is the further problem of avoiding scavengers, which in that hostile environment would be impossible.

As Paul Garner points out in his Answers in Genesis article, “Green River Blues,” (http://www/answersingenesis.org/articles/cm/v19/n3/green-river-blues) among the fossils are those from the extinct shorebird Presbyornis. In stating his case against an old age earth, he writes: “The Presbyornis fossils are even more problematic. Birds have hollow bones that tend not to preserve well in the fossil record. How were these bird bones protected from scavenging and decay for thousands of years until a sufficient numberof the fine annual layers had built up to bury them? ‘Enormous concentrations’ of bird bones are a clear indication that something is seriously wrong with the idea of slow accumulation. Instead, such fossils support the notion of rapid burial.” Garner’s article is well footnoted, and references include evolutionist articles as well as creationist.

As stated by ICR’s John D. Morris, few serious scientists entertain that varves are merely annual events, as bottom-hugging density flows pervade in geologic strata: “In many field observations and in laboratory experiments, multiple laminae can form almost instantaneously in simulated bottom-hugging density flows, now widely recognized as frequent throughout the geologic strata. Few knowledgeable geologists now cling to the myth of one varve equals one year.” (Morris, J. 2007. Varves: Proof for an Old Earth? Acts & Facts: 36(10): 13; http://www.icr.org/article/varves-proof-for-old-earth/) Within that article, he also validly points out the plethora of fossilized species both flora and fauna that present in the formation that are from varied habitats and could only have been washed there but a powerful cataclysm, such as bird fossils “from shorebirds to forest dwellers to ocean feeders.” There are also reptile samples from various locations as well as plants representing upland to sub-tropical species. For much the same discourse and further discussion, see also Morris’s article, “Do Millions of Laminae in the Green River Shales Document Millions of Years?” (http://www.icr.org/article/do-laminae-green-river-shales-document-millions-years/) One of his points there is that one study showed that the laminae varied in occurence by 35% between two instantaneous volcanic ash falls.

Your comments concerning the indications of more pollen in varves in the upper part of the dark layer representing spring shows a basic misunderstanding of how depositions are made, which is related much more to grain size and current or undercurrent activity. In this way, the studies of Guy Berthault should be reviewed (http://geology.ref.ac/berthault/fusion/lamination.htm), who debunks many of the fundamental misconceptions made by traditional sedimentary theory. Likewise, when catastrophes (think the Mount St. Helen’s eruption) or extreme weather conditions occur, varves form very rapidly.

Berthault, like any contrarian researcher, has his critics. One can follow the critique of Kevin R. Henke (http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/creation/berthault/henke.html) and Berthault’s response (http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/creation/berthaul/berthaul.html).

There is also a secular geologic theory that varves form diurnally due to tide activity rather than being seasonal phenomena. At http://creationwiki.org/Varve, it is reported that formations such as the Elatina Formation in South Australia (circa 250 meters thick) could have taken only 60 years to form. (Williams & Schmidt p. 21-25)(Horgan p. 11).

Plus, evolutionists completely disregard the other formations that can’t possibly be explained by Lyellian uniformitarianism. Such an example is illustrated by the John D. Morris article “The Chattanooga Shale, An Evolutionary Enigma” in the November 2012 edition of ICR’s Acts & Facts. (See http://www.icr.org/article/7075)
11

jonmilne

2 November 2012 at 11:37 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Okay, for some really irritating reason, the first part of the email I got from Mike the YEC isn’t publishing and says its “Awaiting moderation”. In any case, I’ve removed the links in case one and/or some of them violate FTB policy as “bad sites”. If it becomes okay to post the links, then I’ll be able to show what Mike the YEC said, even if I suspect his claims are crap.

Hi guys, more help needed on an email debate. This time it’s with a YEC, and only now (after three emails from him) has he actually come up with some actual “evidence” for his claims. I’m splitting the email into three parts for easier reading. Here’s the first part:

Evolutionists tend to be fraught with “selection and elimination” examples that only put their positions in a bad light by ignoring the seminal evidence supporting the Noahic Flood and hence YEC. The Green River Shale formation is replete with fully preserved fossilized fish (especially catfish), right down to scales, eyes and other intricate detail. To avoid rot and disintegration, they would have had to have been rapidly buried. Some evolutionists have tried to counter that the alkaline condition would preserve them, but alkaline doesn’t work that way at all (CMI’s Tas Walker even commented that alkaline powder’s disintegrative properties is why it is used in dishwashers (http://biblicalgeology.net/General/QA-Topics.html), and even if that dubious statement were true, there is the further problem of avoiding scavengers, which in that hostile environment would be impossible.

As Paul Garner points out in his Answers in Genesis article, “Green River Blues,” among the fossils are those from the extinct shorebird Presbyornis. In stating his case against an old age earth, he writes: “The Presbyornis fossils are even more problematic. Birds have hollow bones that tend not to preserve well in the fossil record. How were these bird bones protected from scavenging and decay for thousands of years until a sufficient numberof the fine annual layers had built up to bury them? ‘Enormous concentrations’ of bird bones are a clear indication that something is seriously wrong with the idea of slow accumulation. Instead, such fossils support the notion of rapid burial.” Garner’s article is well footnoted, and references include evolutionist articles as well as creationist.

As stated by ICR’s John D. Morris, few serious scientists entertain that varves are merely annual events, as bottom-hugging density flows pervade in geologic strata: “In many field observations and in laboratory experiments, multiple laminae can form almost instantaneously in simulated bottom-hugging density flows, now widely recognized as frequent throughout the geologic strata. Few knowledgeable geologists now cling to the myth of one varve equals one year.” (Morris, J. 2007. Varves: Proof for an Old Earth? Acts & Facts: 36(10): 13; ) Within that article, he also validly points out the plethora of fossilized species both flora and fauna that present in the formation that are from varied habitats and could only have been washed there but a powerful cataclysm, such as bird fossils “from shorebirds to forest dwellers to ocean feeders.” There are also reptile samples from various locations as well as plants representing upland to sub-tropical species. For much the same discourse and further discussion, see also Morris’s article, “Do Millions of Laminae in the Green River Shales Document Millions of Years?” One of his points there is that one study showed that the laminae varied in occurence by 35% between two instantaneous volcanic ash falls.

Your comments concerning the indications of more pollen in varves in the upper part of the dark layer representing spring shows a basic misunderstanding of how depositions are made, which is related much more to grain size and current or undercurrent activity. In this way, the studies of Guy Berthault should be reviewed, who debunks many of the fundamental misconceptions made by traditional sedimentary theory. Likewise, when catastrophes (think the Mount St. Helen’s eruption) or extreme weather conditions occur, varves form very rapidly.

Berthault, like any contrarian researcher, has his critics. One can follow the critique of Kevin R. Henke and Berthault’s response.

There is also a secular geologic theory that varves form diurnally due to tide activity rather than being seasonal phenomena. It is reported that formations such as the Elatina Formation in South Australia (circa 250 meters thick) could have taken only 60 years to form. (Williams & Schmidt p. 21-25)(Horgan p. 11).

Plus, evolutionists completely disregard the other formations that can’t possibly be explained by Lyellian uniformitarianism. Such an example is illustrated by the John D. Morris article “The Chattanooga Shale, An Evolutionary Enigma” in the November 2012 edition of ICR’s Acts & Facts.
12

Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

2 November 2012 at 12:05 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Morris, J. 2007.

Gish Galloping here, and anything from a biblical presuppositionalist like Morris, along with all not evidenced claims *POOF* dismissed without evidence per the Hitchens quote. Morris presupposes the babble is inerrant, and until that is shown with solid and conclusive physical evidence from the peer reviewed scientific literature, is also dismissed.

Then have him pick his three best claims/”evidences”, and then show scientifically using the peer reviewed scientific literature that it is correct. Accept nothing but real evidence, not speculation, and nothing from any web site that presupposes biblical inerrancy, until that inerrancy is demonstrated. Say by showing a one-time-all-continent-flud-with-all-life-dying. The one-time must be shown by radiometric dating.
13

Rev. BigDumbChimp

2 November 2012 at 12:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

He’s making lots of assertions in that first paragraph about the Green River Shale formation. Not really backing up any of them.
14

Owlmirror

2 November 2012 at 12:44 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Since that sort of pathology is exactly what I’m talking about, I’m not sure why you’re arguing.

But “all humans go so insane that they cannot remember what is real or even properly percieve what is real” isn’t quite the same thing as the scientific method itself not working as the result of a problem with the scientific method itself (which is how I understood your response to the Hovindite).

Because the scientific method is not an algorithm.

Why not? What is non-algorithmic about it?

What’s this thing running?

And I think a more rigorous case could be made that the scientific method is basically an algorithm; an interactive proof-system.

“Basically” here is a weasel word:

I admit that the idea needs fleshing out. I’m being brief, but I don’t see that I’m actually wrong.

as you’ve described it, and in reality, the scientific method is not invariably truth-preserving.

I’m not sure what you mean by that, though. Do you mean in pathological states like “reality becomes random chaos”, or even in more general non-pathological situations?
15

nohellbelowus

2 November 2012 at 12:51 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Fuck Lance fucking Armstrong and all his cowardly minions in the press.

I lived in Austin, TX for seven years, from 1997 to 2004. Lance was a major asshole, of the highest caliber.

Fuck you Lance, you stupid, lying, cheating scumbag.

(Yes, I feel better.)
16

Owlmirror

2 November 2012 at 1:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Because the scientific method is not an algorithm.

Why not? What is non-algorithmic about it?

(Later)

After searching Google Scholar, I came across an interesting citation (I haven’t read the whole thing yet):

Humphreys,P. Computational science and scientific method.
Minds and Machines Volume 5, Number 4 (1995), 499-512, DOI: 10.1007/BF00974980

The working definition of an heuristic that I shall use in this paper comes from a somewhat unexpected source- the psychologist R.L. Gregory.

An heuristic is a method for solving problems when no algorithm exists, using rules which involve essentially a process of trial and error.

As I understand, they’re using “heuristic” simply as being distinct from an algorithm with a specific definite output.

So would you agree that the scientific method is an heuristic?

However, it would appear that heuristics can also be considered as algorithms in a broader sense:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic_algorithm
17

blogofmyself

2 November 2012 at 1:44 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

From the Lounge:

“You know, if Ann Coulter, Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann were the leading female voices in my party, I wouldn’t trust women to make their own health care decisions either,” Feldman said.

First, I want to say that I understand that you didn’t make the joke, Rev. BigDumbChimp, so I’m not addressing any of the following criticism at you.

Now, back to the joke: I don’t like it. There are a number of problems with it.
One, everyone should have the freedom to make their own healthcare decisions, even people like Coulter and Palin. When I say that a woman should be able to choose what is best her and her family, I mean every woman. I know he was just joking, but I think it’s pretty shitty to even jokingly suggest that just because these women have ridiculous opinions on politics that they should suddenly lose autonomy over their own bodies. That’s completely absurd. Many people don’t understand anything about politics, but last time I checked that has fuck-all to do with being able to choose their own healthcare. I guarantee that no-one would joke that Paul Ryan or Ron Paul shouldn’t get to make their own healthcare decisions, no matter how ridiculous their policy positions are. Sexism toward conservative women is still sexism.

Secondly, I don’t like the idea that it’s even mildly reasonable to say, “Hey, these women are not so great, so clearly all women deserve to have their rights taken away.” Again, I know it’s a joke, but it certainly has that undertone to it. Even if he were somehow right about those women being incapable of making their own reproductive choices, that still would not have anything to do with the rights of all women. There is no context in which that kind of stereotyping is ok.

And lastly, one has to wonder why those particular women get to be the “leading female voices” in the party. Why them as opposed to, say, the GOP women who stood up for the contraception coverage mandate? Could it have anything to do with the fact that they are women who agree with the patriarchal bullshit that is the party platform? It’s a terrible feedback loop. The party is anti-choice, so the most successful women in the party are also anti-choice. Then, those anti-choice women are used as an example of why women can’t be trusted to make their own decisions, and that justifies the party being even more anti-choice than before. Making vaguely sexist jokes only feeds into the misogynistic culture that the GOP is trying so hard to preserve. Yeah, there’s some seriously misogynistic crap going on in the GOP platform, but the static level of misogyny in the general culture, the kind that jokes like that one both depend on and help to further, is what enables the GOP to keep doing what it does. I know that this joke is trying to poke fun at the sexism of the Republican party, but jokes that rely on vague sexism to work really aren’t helping.

So yeah, I get that it’s a joke about how awful Coulter, Palin, and Bachmann are, but I feel like it tacitly approves of the “I’m just going to write off all these women” attitude, and that just rubs me the wrong way.
18

Rev. BigDumbChimp

2 November 2012 at 1:55 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

So yeah, I get that it’s a joke about how awful Coulter, Palin, and Bachmann are, but I feel like it tacitly approves of the “I’m just going to write off all these women” attitude, and that just rubs me the wrong way.

I agree with you. I posted that because I at first reading found it funny but after re-reading it had a feeling creep up on me about how it was still a sign of dismissal similar in the way that Anne Coulter is called Mann and Palin is judged on her looks and her family and Bachmann as well.

They all suck in their own special little ways that have absolutely nothing to do with their gender. Well… unless you consider them supporting ideas that are self harming.

But it dismisses every single other woman republican (and more).

Thanks for the comments.
19

LykeX

2 November 2012 at 3:05 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

They have no shame with trying to perpetuate in public school textbooks discredited theories such as Haeckel’s recapitulation…

Ask him for examples of these things. Specific examples; titles and pages. Don’t let him run away from it or divert attention. Get him to demonstrate that this happens (which it doesn’t) or admit that he was wrong. Refuse to discuss anything else until that matter is settled.

The key thing to remember is that the average creationist doesn’t have the slightest clue about any of the subjects they pontificate on. They don’t know, they just quote. Force them to go outside the narrow scope of the quotes they’ve memorized and they quickly demonstrate their ignorance.

This also relates to another important point; don’t ever debate them on something you don’t know yourself. First, since they don’t know the subject, you’ll simply be discussing something that neither of you are qualified to talk about. Second, if you don’t know the subject, you can’t catch them when they talk shit. And they will talk shit.

Finally, don’t let him do what he’s doing: babbling on a dozen different subject at once. Select one, pin him down and keep drilling. Tell him that you’re not even going to read anything on any other subject until the present point is settled.
They love floating from subject to subject because they can then avoid going deeply into any single point. Creationist arguments are at their most convincing when kept shallow. Once you drill deep, they fall to pieces.
20

cm's changeable moniker

2 November 2012 at 4:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Pssst. jonmilne? You’re not going to win this argument.

Anyone who sees the teaching of evolution as a tyranical (his word) conspiracy (mine, based on: The intellectually dishonest evos [etc.]), and writes a 372-page book to show “that it is not only Constitutional to teach evolution and Intelligent Design side by side in the public schools, but that it is unconstitutional NOT to” is probably beyond hope.

That said, given:

our Founding Fathers considered the uncensored public dissemination of information the backbone of a free society

… you could run some Islamic Embryology™ up the flagpole and see if he’ll salute. ;-)

—

*evil thought*

You know those comedy Amazon product reviews. (women in binders, bic for her, etc.)

http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Reductio-Absurdum-Meaning-Education/dp/1448939860

Probably not a good idea, though.
21

cm's changeable moniker

2 November 2012 at 5:18 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Shorter me: teach all the controversies!
22

cm's changeable moniker

2 November 2012 at 5:38 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes:

What are the specs? You might be able to run it without the hard drive.

Toshiba Satellite L300D, 250Gb WD drive.

I’m thinking maybe 256Gb SSD, but I tried imaging it* last night without success (disk read errors, multiple CHKDSKs, etc.) so it’s not clear to me that this is a viable route. Reinstalling from scratch is probably a non-starter due to stupid recovery-from-special-partition Windows BS.

What are you thinking?

—

* By “it”, I mean the now somewhat more compliant hard drive.

*glares*: I’ve found your lair and I can find it again!
23

chigau (棒や石)

2 November 2012 at 7:33 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I think he’s back.
24

Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–

3 November 2012 at 1:04 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

cm @21:
4 years of high school in the US.
Is that long enough to teach *all* the controversies?
25

anteprepro

3 November 2012 at 9:15 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Ah, jonmilne, good luck. He seems like a real shark. Smart enough to know better, smarmy enough to try to spin facts into something that he prefers.

He asserts that fossils can only be preserved due to being covered rapidly without backing it up, then goes onto assume that this rapid burial could only have been Noah’s flood without realizing that this wouldn’t fit in with the timeline for these fossils AT ALL. All it takes a simple wikipedia visit to see that this Green River Shale, this place that is sufficient evidence to prove Noah’s Flood and important enough for Morris to spill much ink saying so, to see that the answer to ” How were these bird bones protected from scavenging and decay for thousands of years until a sufficient numberof the fine annual layers had built up to bury them?” was that the environment was anoxic. That these fossils were dated to the Eocene, which was more than 30 million years ago. The variety of fossils accumulated there is due to the sheer amount of time in which it could accumulate, not due to magical flood waters.

Uniformitarian philosophy is based on a tautology, that the age of the rocks determine the age of fossils and the age of fossils determine the age of the rocks.

Pay no attention to the fact that they also use dendrochronology, ice core dating, luminescence dating, and various forms of radiometric dating. And that is how they infer the age of rocks from the age of fossils, or vice versa, based upon layer, on a case by case basis. But don’t let facts get in the way of accusing science of circular logic.

His talk about the Cambrian explosion is pretty much “nuh uh”, polystrate fossils ARE explained due to rapid sedimentation but that is far cry from saying NOAH’S FLOOD, you need to have a source other than a “creation institute” to actually prove that radiometric dating is significantly flawed such that we think they are off by a factor of thousands, and even if it were true that there were many fossils that were more likely created due to catastrophic events than gradual sedimentation, the onus is on the flood believer to show that all of the instances of catastrophic sedimentation HAPPENED AT THE SAME TIME. They can’t take credit for every instance of above average rate of sedimentation and take that as proof of their magical flood. And the stuff about Darwin “stealing” his ideas from a “creationist” just shows lack of understanding about how science works. SHOCKER.
26

chigau (棒や石)

3 November 2012 at 10:23 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

hi joey!
27

theophontes (坏蛋)

4 November 2012 at 1:35 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ cm’s

I would be loathe to advise throwing good money after bad. With older machines, you cannot always say where the problems lie. What I can suggest is that you download (you might have to do this via another machine) a USB mounted OS. This will let you run everything you need on your RAM, with no need for a disk drive at all. You can also check out your system, recover files etc. [examples: Live USB-creator for Ubuntu or Knoppix on CD/DVD.]

Buying more RAM is a better way IMHO to improve performance, over SSDs. (I have three of the things, I don’t know if I’d write home about them.)
28

Ogvorbis: broken and cynical

4 November 2012 at 9:11 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

4 years of high school in the US.
Is that long enough to teach *all* the controversies?

Tony, I spent five years in a four year high school and didn’t learn all the controversies.
29

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

5 November 2012 at 6:13 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

As I understand, they’re using “heuristic” simply as being distinct from an algorithm with a specific definite output.

So would you agree that the scientific method is an heuristic? – Owlmirror

Yes. But, as I’ve already said, it is never guaranteed to achieve its aim – to eliminate error, or at least, not to introduce new errors – even when applied in the most favourable circumstances. Hence, it differs fundamentally from something like the sort algorithm, or modus ponens. Whether you want to call it an algorithm or not, this fundamental difference remains.
30

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

5 November 2012 at 6:14 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Owlmirror,

as you’ve described it, and in reality, the scientific method is not invariably truth-preserving.

I’m not sure what you mean by that, though. Do you mean in pathological states like “reality becomes random chaos”, or even in more general non-pathological situations?

The latter. (I’m working backwards through the thread.)
31

chigau (棒や石)

5 November 2012 at 11:59 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

We need a troll.
32

theophontes (坏蛋)

6 November 2012 at 8:33 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ chigau

We need a troll.

FIFY: We desperately need a troll.

(I suspect all the ‘Merkin trolls are out there somewhere in RL, voting for rMoney.)
33

Rutee Katreya

6 November 2012 at 8:38 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Apropos of the Injunction by PZ, Nephilim are actually amusing as mythology. I was tickled pink when the game Dominions 3 added the Jewish man-eating giants. But you know, some of us have the sense not to consider them real XD
34

Ogvorbis: broken and cynical

6 November 2012 at 9:10 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Send in the trolls.
There ought to be trolls.
Don’t bother, they’re here.
35

erikthebassist

6 November 2012 at 9:27 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Feminzi’s are stoopid PZ is stoopid evilutionists are stoopid Ayne Rand is teh smarts Bush did 911 what about teh menz?!?!?!?! FREEZE PEACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You’re welcome *heads back under mah bridge*
36

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

6 November 2012 at 9:30 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Can I ask you… is there anything that might be categorized as “woo” that you, personally, find intriguing? – scottyroberts

No*; I’m too interested in real history and science. A lot of woo is dangerous – religion, and “alternative” medicine for example – as is the encouragement it all gives – including tosh like that of the ancient alienists, which isn’t dangerous in itself – to irrationality, and to the contempt for science we see, to give the most important example, in the denial of anthropogenic climate change, and in your own contributions here.

Just curious, as a scientist, do you enjoy science fiction?

Yes. I tend to prefer that which stays closer to scientific plausibility, but that’s not an absolute rule.

*That is, not in the woo itself. I am interested in why people believe in woo, and how it propagates itself and evolves over time.
37

chigau (棒や石)

6 November 2012 at 9:48 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

It’s been over an hour and a half.
Maybe scottyroberts isn’t coming.
38

SC (Salty Current), OM

6 November 2012 at 9:48 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Thought I’d post this here as well:

If anyone’s looking for a distraction from the election stress, I’ve replied to James Croft’s reply to my reply.

(I’m also continuing my Fromm series; theophontes, I’ll be writing much more about the problems with mysticism about 4 or 5 posts on in that series, and the intervening posts will speak to some of the points you raised here recently.)
39

Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine"

6 November 2012 at 9:52 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Can I ask you… is there anything that might be categorized as “woo” that you, personally, find intriguing?

Answered previously. I find lots of fiction fun

Just curious, as a scientist, do you enjoy science fiction?

Have you ever MET an actual scientist?
40

firstapproximation

6 November 2012 at 11:13 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

scotty,

So, you say these ancient alien theories are fanciful wishful thinking with no evidence whatsoever and scientists are closed-minded for not taking them seriously?

Would you organize a symposium about about unicorn-riding-leprechauns-caused-the-Civil-Right-Movement theories? If not, why not?
41

theophontes (坏蛋)

6 November 2012 at 12:07 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ erikthebassist

Aha! You are no doubt in the employ of the nefarious Owlmirror…
42

theophontes (坏蛋)

6 November 2012 at 12:21 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ SC

Merci Beaucoup.

(I have been a bit distracted by the Great Pharyngula Movie Project ™ . All my attempts to launch a viable LOL-star have blown up on the launchpad.)

I have a few extra additions to the discussion too. Sadly there is little help out there from the religious pundits. All the good raconteurs on that side have died out – it would seem.

I feel too, that I might have misexpressed myself – I am not that concerned with mysticism per se as with Myth. Something rather different. But yes, I am interested nevertheless.
43

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

6 November 2012 at 12:27 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

It’s been over an hour and a half.
Maybe scottyroberts isn’t coming. – chigau

Patience: considering how long it took him to work out how to blockquote, he probably just hasn’t found his way here yet.
44

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

6 November 2012 at 12:32 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Inevitable I’d screw up the blockquote on #43, wasn’t it?
45

Ogvorbis: broken and cynical

6 November 2012 at 12:46 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Nick Gotts:

Irony is fun, neh?
46

keresthanatos

6 November 2012 at 1:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

someone posted they need a troll, I gotta few minuets,
47

ChasCPeterson

6 November 2012 at 1:19 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

and I, gotta couple waltzes;
48

Glen Davidson

6 November 2012 at 4:01 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Scotty blithering:

Evolutionary science takes as much [sic] exponential leaps of faith to make the connections as it does to say that God exists.

Around minutes 33 and 34 on the radio show. He states that he’s no creationist–apparently he’s just a dumbass who uses stupid creationist lies to make his “points.”

Glen Davidson
49

chigau (棒や石)

6 November 2012 at 4:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

8 hours.
He’s not coming.
50

dianne

6 November 2012 at 4:20 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

8 hours.
He’s not coming.

Is it just me or is there a reenactment of “Waiting for Godot” underway in here?
51

chigau (棒や石)

6 November 2012 at 4:27 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Waiting for Godot
Ah.
That explains it.
52

John Morales

6 November 2012 at 4:34 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

The Stress of Her Regard
53

cm's changeable moniker

6 November 2012 at 5:30 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

So is “Civic duty accomplished” the de facto election thread?
54

John Morales

6 November 2012 at 5:52 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

cm, it’s not a duty in the USA. It’s an opportunity.
55

chigau (棒や石)

6 November 2012 at 6:35 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

We desperately need a troll.
56

Owlmirror

6 November 2012 at 7:48 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Eh? Wot? Nephilim?

A blast from the past (with some editing; inserted text is added):

========================

Alan Clarke began his cascade of Epic Fail @#105[of Titanoboa!] by stating that:

This phenomena of gigantism was described in the Bible before actual fossil discoveries were made: Genesis 6:4 – “There were giants in the earth in those days…”

Note, by the way, that the verse contradicts the Nicene Creed, saying: “the sons of God”. It can also been seen as contradicting the monotheism the bible is supposed to espouse; the phrase “בני האלהים” is more literally “the sons of the God”, but “God” is “Elohim”, a word which appears to be plural, but usually used in the singular when referring to the God of Israel. Yet “Elohim” is also used The phrase can just as easily be read as “the sons of the Gods“.

The Hebrew terms “נפילים” (nephilim) and “גברים” (giborim) are both translated in the LXX as “γιγαντες”, (gigantes); giants. But that latter Hebrew term should definitely be “heroes”; “mighty men” in the KJV is probably OK. “Nephilim” is harder to get an accurate sense of; “fallen ones” is suggested because of the closeness of the word to the common Hebrew term that means “fell/fallen”: “nafal”. Note that the term appears again in Numbers 13:33, in reference to the spies saying that they saw the Nephilim (again translated in the LXX as γιγαντες), “sons (or “children”) of Anak” — but “anak” is the common Hebrew term for “giant”, and in some cases, “בני” (“bene”) can have a more poetic/abstract sense of “deriving from”. ¹

So who were all these giants; heroes; “mighty men”? Well… here’s an interesting hypothesis. It is based on the simple fact that Alan is quite wrong in saying that the bible predates fossil discoveries.

There are places where fossils simply appear due to the earth shifting for various reasons. In the Gobi desert, Protoceratops and Psittacosaurus bones are eroded from hills and cliffs by the ferocious scouring of sandstorms, and have been for thousands of years; it is suggested that these are the source of the legend of the griffins, which were reported as living in the exact same area, guarding the gold that is to be found there. In the Mediterranean, storms and earthquakes can erode cliffs and hills, exposing Neogene and Pleistocene fossils of elephant-related Proboscidea (various mammoths and mastodons), the giant giraffe Samotherium, cave bears, and other large mammals.

Josephus wrote in Jewish Antiquities 5.2.3. that in the area around Hebron (Israel), the early Israelites wiped out “a race of giants, who had bodies so large and countenances so entirely different from other men, that they were surprising to the sight, and terrible to the hearing. The bones of these men are still shown to this very day, unlike to any credible relations of other men.”

Now “unlike to any credible relations of other men” suggests something genuinely strange. Not just large, but obviously different from human bones.

Once we take into account that fossils of giant animals were and are in the earth throughout the Mediterranean, and these fossils can simply erode out over time, the stories of giants in the bible, especially in the fable of the spies in Numbers 13, begin to make more sense: The ancient Israelites found these fossils and created stories about them as being the sons of the Gods and men; the original inhabitants of the land of Canaan who were fought and killed by the ancestors of the Israelites themselves.

==begin inserted text==
And there were also stories that were told about the fossils, in that they were from monster-men that lived before the mythical flood. Note that the rabbis noted the inconsistency that the Nephilim supposedly lived before the flood, and that the flood supposedly killed all life (including the Nephilim), and yet the Nephilim were mentioned later in the post-Exodus narratives. They came up with an ad-hoc explanation (i.e., a Midrash) that Og, father of the post-diluvian Nephilim, either sat on the ark, or was actually built a compartment inside the ark.
==end inserted text==

I’ve picked up the idea of biblical geomythology from reading the first chapters (and skipping a bit to find the parts about Israel) in The First Fossil Hunters, by Adrienne Mayor. She is not the first to suggest that the monsters of myth were actually fossils found by various peoples, but this is a good popular treatment of the subject. Note that she does not actually make the inference that this was the case for all myths; she tracked down references to giant bones in the Greek and Roman classical literature and correlated them with the latest known palaeontological findings. While she references the myth of the griffins and the myth of Andromeda (chained near Joppa, also in Israel) and the myth of Cyclops being a misinterpreted mammoth or mastadon skeleton, and sundry others, the specific correlation of the giants in the bible with fossils is my own interpolation, via her citation of Josephus’ description of the giant bones of Hebron.

Still, I think it quite plausible that many of the stories of giants and giant monsters all around the world may well derive from preliterate findings of millions-years-old fossils.

__________________________________________________________
1: Consider the English phrase “son of the desert” (Arabic “ابن الصحراء”, “Ibn al-Sahraa”). Another example in Hebrew is the common name “Ben-yamin”, meaning literally “son of the right (hand)” (or “south”, because when facing east, the south is on the right). An example in Aramaic is “Bar Kochba”; “son of a star”.
57

Owlmirror

6 November 2012 at 7:52 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Editing FAIL.

Yet “Elohim” is also used to refer to “gods”, in the plural (Exodus 20:3 being an obvious example).

FTFM
58

erikthebassist

6 November 2012 at 8:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes,

Who is this owlmirror you speak of? *looks up*

oh hir? never met hir and you can’t prove that I have.
59

cm's changeable moniker

6 November 2012 at 8:22 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

O R S T B E H R S B N O E P N Y

That should do it …
60

cm's changeable moniker

6 November 2012 at 8:46 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

(That was courtesy of http://www.fun-with-words.com/boggle.html)

I have, at the very least, “throbs”. ;-)
61

erikthebassist

6 November 2012 at 9:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

troy jumped out at me
62

erikthebassist

6 November 2012 at 9:17 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

these
63

erikthebassist

6 November 2012 at 9:17 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

throne
64

erikthebassist

6 November 2012 at 9:18 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

tron of course, are proper names allowed?
65

erikthebassist

6 November 2012 at 9:20 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

norse
66

erikthebassist

6 November 2012 at 9:22 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

horses, longest so far, ok, I’m ahead by one cm. Done for now.
67

Ichthyic

6 November 2012 at 9:27 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Evolutionary science takes as much [sic] exponential leaps of faith to make the connections as it does to say that God exists.

that website hurts my eyeballs.

why is it that all these fucking paranormal woomeisters ALWAYS have such glaringly bad websites?
68

Ichthyic

6 November 2012 at 9:30 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

We desperately need a troll.

*wads up stinkiest cheese bait in the tackle box*
…

Venture capitalism is the only way to revitalize the ~~American~~ global economy in the 21st century.

prove me wrong.
69

cm's changeable moniker

6 November 2012 at 9:32 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

thrones

Hah! (You should always look for plurals!)
70

erikthebassist

6 November 2012 at 9:42 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

thrones

Hah! (You should always look for plurals!)

Throners? (those who occupy thrones I presume. ;)
71

Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–

6 November 2012 at 9:44 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Uh oh. It’s bad when you’re playing word games.
Maybe PZ can hire someone to troll the Thunderdome.
Perhaps an ad in Craigslist (heck it might be funny creating an ad seeking a troll).
72

Owlmirror

6 November 2012 at 9:45 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

shorn
horny
bores
shone
obese
berobe
thorny
resh
beorst
hones
honer
honest
none
short
Thebes
73

cm's changeable moniker

6 November 2012 at 9:46 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

[M]eet 21-year-old Galicia Malone.

The south suburban Dolton mom-to-be was spotted at her polling place Tuesday morning on her way to give birth at a local hospital.

Cook County Clerk David Orr said Malone’s contractions were five minutes apart when she showed up around 8:30 a.m. at her precinct’s location named, yes, New Life Celebration Church.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/11/06/1156892/-Too-tired-or-lazy-to-vote-Get-over-it

*admiration and best wishes for safe delivery*
74

Owlmirror

6 November 2012 at 9:48 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

(whaddaya mean, no hebrew or anglo-saxon?)
75

cm's changeable moniker

6 November 2012 at 9:51 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

(See? It’s like a summoning spell.)
76

theophontes (坏蛋)

6 November 2012 at 9:59 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ erikthebassist

oh hir? never met hir and you can’t prove that I have.

Your denial has been recorded and will be used in evidence against you.

@ Tony

Maybe PZ can hire someone to troll the Thunderdome.

We currently have Public Enemy Number One ™ posting as you type.

@ Owlmirror

See what you did – bringing reason and good argument into the Thunderdome: You have scared away the trolls.
77

cm's changeable moniker

6 November 2012 at 10:27 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Ohio has been called for Barack Obama.

*phew*
78

Owlmirror

6 November 2012 at 11:05 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Ohio has been called for Barack Obama.

Huh.

Right this moment, the two maps I’m looking at both have Ohio for Romney.

But they also have 270(+) electoral votes for Obama.
79

Owlmirror

6 November 2012 at 11:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

No, wait, now Ohio has flipped back to Obama in the lead.
80

Ichthyic

6 November 2012 at 11:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Ohio has been called for Barack Obama.

it actually doesn’t matter any more.

Obama got colorado and nevada.

done.
81

cm's changeable moniker

6 November 2012 at 11:19 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Don’t forget Hawaii. ;-)

The timezones are still working …
82

chigau (棒や石)

6 November 2012 at 11:51 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

scottyroberts
scottyroberts
scottyroberts
83

Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–

7 November 2012 at 8:59 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

chigau:
I think you need a mirror for that to work…
84

Ogvorbis: broken and cynical

7 November 2012 at 9:14 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

scottyroberts
scottyroberts
scottyroberts

No, not you, Michael Keaton.
85

chigau (棒や石)

7 November 2012 at 9:15 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Tony
Do I hold the mirror up to the camera?
Or what?
86

chigau (棒や石)

7 November 2012 at 9:24 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

No, not you, Michael Keaton.

Unless…
87

Owlmirror

7 November 2012 at 9:43 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@Nick Gotts:

But, as I’ve already said, it is never guaranteed to achieve its aim – to eliminate error, or at least, not to introduce new errors – even when applied in the most favourable circumstances.

Well… how do you know that there is error? If you’re testing for it, and you find it, the whole point of the method is to eliminate the error. If you’re testing for it, and not finding it, how do you know that it is actually error?

This is why we run multiple instances (peer review; broad consensus-seeking) of the method (or heuristic); even if one instance fails to find actual error, another instance should catch it. I think it might be possible to argue that multiple instances of the heuristic, run over multiple iterations, should have ever-diminishing amounts of error.

As with any algorithm that involves stochastic systems and methods, no, truth is not guaranteed. But I think you can show that it is highly improbable that error will remain and/or accumulate, especially in a scenario with many parallel and serial instances of the heuristic.

We should indeed continue to hold the results of the method provisionally, but I think we can be confident that the method will, over successive iterations, increase our confidence in those results. And for any failure of confidence in the results due to actual error, well, it is exactly the scientific method (working properly) that will find those failures.
88

chigau (棒や石)

7 November 2012 at 10:05 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Fuck snow.
89

Owlmirror

7 November 2012 at 10:48 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Fuck snow.

kaniktshaq moritlkatsio atsuniartoq

“Observe the snow. It fornicates.”
90

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

7 November 2012 at 10:55 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Well… how do you know that there is error? If you’re testing for it, and you find it, the whole point of the method is to eliminate the error. If you’re testing for it, and not finding it, how do you know that it is actually error? – Owlmirror

Come on: you don’t have to know there is error in any particular case to know that there will almost certainly be errors in some cases (if there were none, that could only be the result of magic).

I don’t have any disagreement with the rest of your latest comment.
91

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

7 November 2012 at 11:00 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Now “unlike to any credible relations of other men” suggests something genuinely strange. Not just large, but obviously different from human bones. – Owlmirror

An elephant’s skull has a single large hole in the upper centre which could easily be mistaken for a single eye-socket. It’s actually where the trunk was in life.
92

Owlmirror

7 November 2012 at 11:52 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

An elephant’s skull has a single large hole in the upper centre which could easily be mistaken for a single eye-socket. It’s actually where the trunk was in life.

Yes, Adrienne Mayor specifically connects the cyclops to misinterpreted elephant/mammoth skulls, and I recall that she cites earlier works that made the same connection.

Some Proboscideans looked very weird indeed. If someone didn’t know much about zoology, a Deinotherium skull might look like some sort of horrible troll with huge eyes, a huge nose and a bizarre horned chin.
93

Owlmirror

7 November 2012 at 12:25 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Nifty!

New intro to Mayor’s book, detailing the effects of the first edition on the scholarship and understanding of palaeontology and history:

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/HPST/MayorFFH2011.pdf
94

Owlmirror

7 November 2012 at 4:54 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Come on: you don’t have to know there is error in any particular case to know that there will almost certainly be errors in some cases

And yet, that’s not quite how I think it ought to be phrased. What is left after each case is uncertainty; lack of knowledge as to whether there is actual error or actual correctness. That’s not quite the same thing as being certain that there is actual error.
95

A. R

7 November 2012 at 6:39 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes: Chilly day here.
96

cm's changeable moniker

7 November 2012 at 6:49 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Cindy Clendenon’s Hydromythology and the Ancient Greek World analyzes Greek myths in terms of karst geology. Fossil folklorist Christopher Duffin combines geology, medicine, and popular lore in articles on the history of medical uses of invertebrate fossils. In The Star-Crossed Stone, paleontologist Kenneth McNamara surveys the cultural history of sea urchin fossils from Neolithic times to the present.

Karst topography? Fossils as medicine? Echinoids in culture?!

Curse you, Owlmirror, for adding to my Amazon wishlist. *scowls*
97

Jessa

7 November 2012 at 7:40 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Word games in [Thunderdome]?

*shakes head*

That troll bait had better work soon, before someone starts a game of Hangman.
98

theophontes (坏蛋)

7 November 2012 at 10:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ A.R #95

Your sekrit mesarge failed to transmit.
99

chigau (棒や石)

7 November 2012 at 10:17 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

We had fifteen fucking centimetres of snow.
I invite the little red wiggly underline to bite my crank.
100

A. R

7 November 2012 at 10:42 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes: Odd.
101

erikthebassist

8 November 2012 at 12:57 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Hey did you know Obama won?
102

theophontes (坏蛋)

8 November 2012 at 3:26 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ A.R

Perhaps you can work out where I am going wrong. The LOL-star turns about 10 degrees and then starts playing loud disco music from the 70′s. Is this a bug or a feature?

PS: I discovered I can post ogg-vobis (no relation) video on hotmail from within China. You can download LOL-star video here: Linky and play on computer.

…
I won on the horses yesterday. Yay! (Don’t tell cicely.)
103

Rutee Katreya

8 November 2012 at 7:46 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

For those just chomping at the bit for trolls, there are some low quality misogynists on the EXTERMINATE! thread.

Not a lot to bat around though.
104

A. R

8 November 2012 at 6:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes: Video was non-functional. It just opened Windows Movie Maker. Oh, and the LOLstar plays the Meow Mix jingle.
105

strange gods before me ॐ

8 November 2012 at 6:53 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Come to think of it, the One Holey Cadaveric Vitriolic Church of Quantum Boltzmannbrontosaurusism needs its own military capacity. I shall have to commandeer the LOLstar.

[A. R fires low-yield LOLbeam at SG]

BOOM!

:)

It worked: I lol’d.
106

theophontes (坏蛋)

8 November 2012 at 10:44 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ A.R

Video was non-functional.

That is strange. Perhaps it is a Windows ™ thing. You may have to download VLC (the best!) to play .ogg files. I will be in Honkers this weekend, so can post to youtube (which takes .ogg files).

Link to VLC (It is an omnipotent player, it can handle everything out there.) If that doesn’t work, you’ll have to resort to offering libations to the Boltzmann Brontosaurus.
107

theophontes (坏蛋)

8 November 2012 at 11:11 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ SGBM

Cliquez ici!
108

chigau (棒や石)

8 November 2012 at 11:43 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I cannot believe that the FrenchLanguageCops will let “Cliquez” go unchallenged.
109

theophontes (坏蛋)

9 November 2012 at 1:58 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ chigau

*cough* Porkwuz non?
110

Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–

9 November 2012 at 3:11 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I find it curious that SteveoR won’t come *here* to hash out his problems. Instead, he’d rather appropriate The Lounge for his purposes, and fuck everyone else… or he’ll derail a thread. He doesn’t want to come here because it’s unrestrained and there are no rules?! The one place you can come and argue for eternity, but just because people talk to him however they want, he won’t venture in? That seems to be a cowardly move.
111

John Morales

9 November 2012 at 4:28 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Tony, you must have experience with belligerent drunken people who nonetheless avoid actual confrontation when actual fisticuffs appear likely. :)
112

Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–

9 November 2012 at 4:32 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

John:
you’d be surprised. The belligerent drunks I’ve encountered didn’t avoid fights when it came to that (I was never involved in any, but I’ve watched them break out in various bars I’ve worked). Usually security guards have to be called over to stop a fight from breaking out, or breaking one up. Funny thing-all the fights I can recall involved guys fighting over a girl.
113

John Morales

9 November 2012 at 4:42 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Ah, fair enough, Tony. I’m not much of a bar person, so my experience is limited to social events, and not many of those at that.
114

Giliell, Approved Straight Chorus

9 November 2012 at 4:43 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Tony

Funny thing-all the fights I can recall involved guys fighting over a girl.

Because just asking her is too much trouble.
Yeah, another data-point in the endless sea of “many guys see women as property, not as people”
115

SC (Salty Current), OM

9 November 2012 at 1:32 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

My fourth reply to James Croft. I sincerely hope we’re getting somewhere.
116

chigau (棒や石)

9 November 2012 at 8:45 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I’m bored.
Amuse me.
117

imkindaokay

9 November 2012 at 9:06 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Peter Hitchens is coming to my uni.

He’s said so many wrong things, I dunno which one I should focus on (presuming I only get one question).

Whaddya think I should ask him about?
118

John Morales

9 November 2012 at 9:30 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

imkindaokay, what are the three most wrong yet easily refutable things he’s said, and can you rank them by any criteria?

(If you can do both the above, then you should probably focus on the most highly ranked)
119

imkindaokay

9 November 2012 at 10:05 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I suppose

1) Antidepressants make people kill other people
2) Breast cancer is caused by lack of pregnancy (not even abortions … just not getting pregnant)
3) Drunk victims of rape are as culpable as drunk drivers
but then also
4) We shouldn’t have fought in WWII because it made us lose our empire
5) Teachers who teach sex-ed are as bad as paedophiles and that sex ed is child grooming, sexualising the youth, and leading to higher rates of teen pregnancy (though lack of pregnancy is causing a breast cancer epidemic)

they’re all so bad, I just do not know
120

A. R

9 November 2012 at 10:33 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

imkindaokay: Go after 2 and 3, 5 if you have time and/or fact gun ammunition left.
121

imkindaokay

9 November 2012 at 10:54 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I was thinking that 3 is probably the most serious; but 1 affects me personally and is something I know more about. 3 might be better handled by superior feminists than I.

I dunno why he’s allowed to come, he’s a really shit person.
122

chigau (棒や石)

9 November 2012 at 11:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

imkindaokay
Ask Peter Hitchens if he believes that Jesus Christ is returning in his (Peter Hitchens) lifetime.
123

imkindaokay

9 November 2012 at 11:20 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Where has he said that?
124

John Morales

9 November 2012 at 11:23 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

imkindaokay,

I was thinking that 3 is probably the most serious; but 1 affects me personally and is something I know more about. 3 might be better handled by superior feminists than I.

There you have it. :)

–

I do encourage you to take advantage of this opportunity to incommode him!

(Gunga Din!)
125

chigau (棒や石)

9 November 2012 at 11:31 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

imkindaokay
Perhaps he hasn’t said it, yet.
If you get a chance, ask him.
126

imkindaokay

9 November 2012 at 11:31 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

‘Ayn Rand, another liberal’ he says.

What an absolute shart.
127

theophontes (坏蛋)

10 November 2012 at 3:26 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ imkindaokay

What an absolute shart.

I am scared to ask. Particularly as the word is being used to describe Peter Hitchens.
128

Giliell, Approved Straight Chorus

10 November 2012 at 3:51 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

imkindaok
Well, for 5 you have a lot of solid, empirical data to beat him over the head with.
129

John Morales

10 November 2012 at 4:22 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes, you know when you think you’re doing a fart, but it comes out liquid?

(Yeah, that’s a shit fart — or a shart for short)
130

John Morales

10 November 2012 at 4:39 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

… But a fetus is not a fecal flatus.
131

imkindaokay

10 November 2012 at 11:52 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Shart is my new word of choice.

But anyway, @Giliell, do you have any specific like, tables of rates of teenage pregnancy by country/state and tables of what a country’s/state’s sex ed is like (or know where to find them?) I’ve been looking and I can’t find anything that’s really just in your face about it.
132

imkindaokay

10 November 2012 at 11:56 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Well I can find the pregnancy ones; but not in comparison to comprehensiveness of sex ed (or whatever)
133

Rev. BigDumbChimp

10 November 2012 at 12:46 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes, you know when you think you’re doing a fart, but it comes out liquid?

(Yeah, that’s a shit fart — or a shart for short)

One question you never want to ask yourself

Do farts have lumps?

That concludes rev bdc’s grade school philosophy question of the day.
134

Giliell, Approved Straight Chorus

10 November 2012 at 1:49 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Imkindaok
How about this: http://ari.ucsf.edu/science/reports/abstinence.pdf

or this: http://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X%2807%2900426-0/abstract

Google IS your friend ;)
135

Ogvorbis: broken and cynical

10 November 2012 at 2:54 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Do farts have lumps?

Yes, Reverend, they sometimes do. Of course, when they have lumps, they are not sharts, they are limbaughs.
136

LykeX

10 November 2012 at 2:59 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I thought lumpy farts were the ones that went FFFFTHLBTHLBTHLBTHLBTHLBTHLBTHLBTHLB!
137

A. R

10 November 2012 at 4:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

[A. R is concerned, considers the effect of discussion of flatulence on teh tardigrade's work on "Pharyngula, the Motion Picture."]
138

chigau (棒や石)

10 November 2012 at 4:41 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

A. R
I didn’t even know tardigrades could get flatulence.
139

Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–

10 November 2012 at 4:46 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Oggie:
when does a Limbaugh become a Santorum?
140

John Morales

10 November 2012 at 4:51 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Thought for the day: when you smell someone’s fart, you’re inhaling particles of poo.
141

strange gods before me ॐ

10 November 2012 at 4:58 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Please fill in the blank (yes, dear reader, I’m asking you).

Language is __________ all the way down.

+++++
theophontes, I cliquezed. It was cute. :)
142

chigau (棒や石)

10 November 2012 at 5:02 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Language is particles all the way down.
143

Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–

10 November 2012 at 5:03 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

this is what the Thunderdome has become.
A place to talk shit…
hee hee…
144

John Morales

10 November 2012 at 5:11 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I am lazy.

Language is __________ all the way down.
145

Owlmirror

10 November 2012 at 5:22 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

*Duh.*

Language is recursion all the way down.
146

cm's changeable moniker

10 November 2012 at 6:42 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Are we debating langue vs. parole?

Anyhow, I’m reliving War of the Worlds.

It’s like time travel. I have been transported to my past.
147

Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–

10 November 2012 at 6:50 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

John @144:
Nice.
There were many choices there.
Michele Malkins’ was ironic.
148

broboxley OT

10 November 2012 at 7:05 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

shameless promotion
My kid has been bugging me to promote his site. I said I would link it once
so for woo flavored coffee go to
http://www.oxleycoffee.organogold.com/
or if you just want to laugh and point at the woo go there
otherwise feel free to ignore
thank you for your forebearance
149

chigau (棒や石)

10 November 2012 at 7:20 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

broboxley
I clicked.
I looked.
Nutraceuticals?
and
what is the problem with Binomial nomenclature?
150

chigau (棒や石)

10 November 2012 at 7:38 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

oh and re: language
from Pffft

Head finality in Japanese sentence structure carries over to the building of sentences using other sentences. In sentences that have other sentences as some of their constituents, the subordinated sentences (relative clauses, for example), always precede what they refer to, since they are modifiers and what they modify has the syntactic status of phrasal head. Translating the phrase the man who was walking down the street into Japanese word order would be street down walking man. (Note that Japanese has no articles, and the different word order obviates any need for the relative pronoun who.)

Now. Wasn’t that helpful?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_grammar
151

Ogvorbis: broken and cynical

10 November 2012 at 8:20 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

chigau:

That explains the instructions that come with some of the scale models I build.
152

chigau (棒や石)

10 November 2012 at 9:04 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Ogvorbis
Even with all my dictionaries I still wonder why the Japanese recipes want me to put the daikon and salt in my bed or possibly my floor.
(wait. they mean put the daikon and salt in a large, flat container)
153

Ogvorbis: broken and cynical

10 November 2012 at 9:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

(wait. they mean put the daikon and salt in a large, flat container)

A kitty litter box?
154

chigau (棒や石)

10 November 2012 at 9:20 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

If I put daikon and salt in the kitty litter box, the kitty would probably “litter” in my bed or on the floor.
155

theophontes (坏蛋)

11 November 2012 at 2:16 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ John Morales

Thought for the day: when you smell someone’s fart, you’re inhaling particles of poo.

Thank you John… {starts turning green}

Turn sound up and clicky: Link.
156

John Morales

11 November 2012 at 2:28 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes, such petophony mightily amuses the prepubescent child I once was.

(Kids are so lucky these days!)
157

Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–

11 November 2012 at 3:04 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

“once was”…?
158

theophontes (坏蛋)

11 November 2012 at 3:13 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ All

[Orania]

I wrote an email to the committee in Orania to see what they are about, they wrote back to me:

Mnr Phontes

Ek heg ‘n pamflet aan. As jy meer inligting verlang kan jy gerus jou posadres verskaf dan pos ons meer materiaal. *

Groete,

John Strydom

Adjunk-uitvoerende hoof

Their pamflet is here: Link.

It is so sad. These are otherwise good, down-to-earth people. They just have this big blockage in the brain that compels them to be inveterate racists. If we could somehow just remove that … :’(

* (Translation: I attach a pamphlet. If you wish for more information, feel free to send your postal adress, then we will send more material.)
159

John Morales

11 November 2012 at 3:23 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Tony, the child is gone — has become me — but I still like to please him.

(No, it’s not rational)
160

theophontes (坏蛋)

11 November 2012 at 3:26 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ A.R

Yes, the farty conversation has distracted me from the more serious work of finding non-farty soundeffects for the movie. Here are the latest film rushes from the set: Link to Pharyngula: The Movie.

After no responses from the lolstar, we sent an Xwing round to see what was the matter. We seem to have got at least one LOL~~meer~~kat up and running. (Teh kittehz snoozez too much.)
161

theophontes (坏蛋)

11 November 2012 at 8:27 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ John Morales

I think that I can honestly say, that it is the child in me that pays the bills.
162

McC2lhu doesn't want to know what you did there.

11 November 2012 at 10:16 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

As if you needed more insight into the GOP mentality during the recent big elections (no Miss Collins, I said big eLections!) perhaps a pair of red-state spex will illuminate matters.

I see that I have brought this subject up at the most opportune time, considering the discussion about teh phartz. “Phactz” emanating from the Rethuglicans seem to have been pulled directly from the bum as well.
163

cm's changeable moniker

11 November 2012 at 4:38 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I took the 4-year-old to a birthday party today.

Now I have S-Club 7 – Don’t Stop Moving in my head.

I think it’s like The Ring. If I can make you hear it, I won’t die.
164

theophontes (坏蛋)

12 November 2012 at 1:41 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

{dr theophontes feels Teh Thunderdome’s pulse}

Stone cold daaid!
165

McC2lhu doesn't want to know what you did there.

12 November 2012 at 7:41 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

cm’s changeable moniker @163:

Of course you’re going to have it stuck in your head. Every component of the tune is something you’ve heard before and are familiar with.

The opening bass-line is almost verbatim Michael Jackson’s ‘Billy Jean’ to hook you.

The chorus is sung as if ABBA had been reincarnated and brought a hefty chunk of ‘Summernight City’ with them.

The string sections are nothing but ’70s disco kitsch.

Whoever produced this knew exactly what they were doing, and they are very evil, evil people.
166

Rev. BigDumbChimp

12 November 2012 at 7:53 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Now I have S-Club 7 – Don’t Stop Moving in my head.

I can say that I’m pretty damn sure I’ve never heard that song before
167

A. R

12 November 2012 at 8:17 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes: Sorry about snubbing the X-wing, but the crew as a bit intoxicated from Friday night…
168

chigau (棒や石)

12 November 2012 at 9:09 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Not dead.
Resting.
169

Rutee Katreya

12 November 2012 at 9:21 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Apropos of nothing but my loading up firefox to an old thread, I need to really stop playing along with fool misogynists who whine about radfemhub as if it’s concentrated evil. For the second time, I just looked over radfemhub in detail. Predictably, even the radical feminists don’t really say anything that bad about dudes. I mean, they’re total assholes to WoC (Not on today’s check, but the previous one I did, christ.), the poor, and trans women, but dudes who act like they’re the satan of feminism really have no idea how good they have it.

Compare that shit to stormfront, or some other actual oppressive group and it just… doesn’t work. I need to stop taking it as a given that they’re total shit to dudes. And this is the second time I had to remind myself of this =.=;
170

anteprepro

12 November 2012 at 9:41 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Predictably, even the radical feminists don’t really say anything that bad about dudes.

Yep. If there is one thing that is reliable in this world, it is non-feminists completely mischaracterizing feminists. Don’t worry about having to remind yourself, though. Verification is what good skeptics do.
171

theophontes (坏蛋)

12 November 2012 at 10:51 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ AR

[X-wing]

intoxicated from Friday night…

No-one has ever flown one sober…

@ chigau

Not dead.
Resting.

You mean a zombie thread?
172

cm's changeable moniker

12 November 2012 at 6:26 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

A. R, yes, that, and the fact I’ve heard the song about a thousand times. And know all the words. *shame*

(The chord progression in the bridge is neat, though.)
173

chigau (棒や石)

12 November 2012 at 7:30 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

The recent trolls in the other threads have been pathetic.
No staying power, at all!
174

cm's changeable moniker

12 November 2012 at 8:41 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

The string sections are nothing but ’70s disco kitsch.

Heh. November 4, 1997:

WASHINGTON, DC—At a press conference Monday, U.S. Retro Secretary Anson Williams issued a strongly worded warning of an imminent “national retro crisis,” cautioning that “if current levels of U.S. retro consumption are allowed to continue unchecked, we may run entirely out of past by as soon as 2005.

[...]

The National Retro Clock currently stands at 1990, an alarming 74 percent closer to the present than 10 years ago, when it stood at 1969.

Nowhere is the impending retro crisis more apparent, Williams said, than in the area of popular music.

U.S. Dept. Of Retro Warns: ‘We May Be Running Out Of Past’
175

chigau (棒や石)

12 November 2012 at 9:11 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I would like another disappearing complaints thread.
176

Owlmirror

12 November 2012 at 9:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

The recent trolls in the other threads have been pathetic.
No staying power, at all!

yesyouneedmyimaginaryfriend is only brave when bobenyart is around.
177

strange gods before me ॐ

12 November 2012 at 9:38 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

There’s some radical feminists here at Pharyngula too, of whom Radfem Hub is not at all representative.

+++++
Via John’s lazy link, my favorite “language is” so far:

“religious language is ashram cats all the way down.”
178

chigau (棒や石)

12 November 2012 at 9:45 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

From an old link I saved
~~ashram~~ temple cats
http://youneedacat.tumblr.com/post/20350463591/tehfawx-tempus-teapot-myjusticecake
179

strange gods before me ॐ

12 November 2012 at 9:48 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

eep

pretty fur though
180

strange gods before me ॐ

12 November 2012 at 10:18 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Leon Arnott reveals:

While thinking about it, I looked up the etymology of ‘henchman’, and it’s apparantly “from man + O.E. hengest ‘horse, stallion, gelding.’” I guess that proves it, then – the English language really is horses all the way down.
181

chigau (棒や石)

12 November 2012 at 10:28 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

So, how does that “hengest”=”stallion” and “gelding” thing work?
JAQ ;)
182

strange gods before me ॐ

12 November 2012 at 10:51 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/auto-antonym

Each such word has its own funny history. If the word really had those specific meanings rather than simply referring to a broad category (the “Online Etymology Dictionary” is not as reliable as its author makes it look), I suppose it would have first been applied to one, and somewhere this would be understood as a word conveying information about horse balls or maleness, which is then used regarding the other.

But, ask pelamun.
183

Jadehawk

12 November 2012 at 10:56 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

So, how does that “hengest”=”stallion” and “gelding” thing work?

if it’s just a word for a male horse, then it would be a word for both the castrated and the uncastrated kind of male horse, no?

does english have a word that applies to all male horses?
184

chigau (棒や石)

12 November 2012 at 10:57 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

ॐ
Sometimes I surprised that We(as language-using-homonimidsoids) can communicate, at all.
I’d like to ask pelamun but he doesn’t do TZT any more.
185

strange gods before me ॐ

12 November 2012 at 11:14 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

if it’s just a word for a male horse, then it would be a word for both the castrated and the uncastrated kind of male horse, no?

This is my first guess, that the etymology guy’s style of writing makes the meaning appear more specific than it was.

does english have a word that applies to all male horses?

Horse, I think, as opposed to mare, in some archaic conventions. But I’m not sure; it still might not have applied to geldings.

+++++
chigau: I wonder if very much communication really goes on. Sometimes I think we’re sitting together and talking to ourselves. Which is still nice.
186

strange gods before me ॐ

12 November 2012 at 11:18 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I find this both annoying and worth knowing.

http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/09/23/0956797612445312.short

In the study reported here, we investigated whether covertly manipulating positive facial expressions would influence cardiovascular and affective responses to stress. Participants (N = 170) naive to the purpose of the study completed two different stressful tasks while holding chopsticks in their mouths in a manner that produced a Duchenne smile, a standard smile, or a neutral expression. Awareness was manipulated by explicitly asking half of all participants in the smiling groups to smile (and giving the other half no instructions related to smiling). Findings revealed that all smiling participants, regardless of whether they were aware of smiling, had lower heart rates during stress recovery than the neutral group did, with a slight advantage for those with Duchenne smiles. Participants in the smiling groups who were not explicitly asked to smile reported less of a decrease in positive affect during a stressful task than did the neutral group. These findings show that there are both physiological and psychological benefits from maintaining positive facial expressions during stress.
187

A. R

12 November 2012 at 11:40 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

What if I told you peoples that I have access to pelamun?
188

strange gods before me ॐ

12 November 2012 at 11:44 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I would say to tell pelamun we have a question about horse testicles.

Also hi how’s it going. :)
189

A. R

12 November 2012 at 11:49 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

The question has been asked, and a response shall be posted as soon as it becomes available.
190

Rutee Katreya

12 November 2012 at 11:49 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

There’s some radical feminists here at Pharyngula too, of whom Radfem Hub is not at all representative.

Yeah, but I don’t see the need to play “But we’re not like THEM” in regards to entirely fictional man-hating. The problems with radical feminists as a whole, including radfemhub, relate to cascading kyriarchy fail. Even the great radfem satan doesn’t ‘hate men’. Which is pretty a rich charge coming from the people most likely to cite radfemhub as feminist satan at any rate.

And just so we’re clear, I identified as a radical feminist until it became clear just how little they cared for WoC, trans women, poor women and the like.
191

chigau (棒や石)

12 November 2012 at 11:58 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

On an episode of one of the CSI TV shows, one of the characters was carrying a bucket of spit-blood-mucus and smiling.
Questioned by one of her colleagues about her facial expression, she responded.
“Smiling suppresses the gag reflex.”
—
So that was true?
192

strange gods before me ॐ

12 November 2012 at 11:58 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Yeah, but I don’t see the need to play “But we’re not like THEM” in regards to entirely fictional man-hating.

Aye, I mean it in regard to transphobia et cetera.
193

strange gods before me ॐ

13 November 2012 at 12:10 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Urgh.

http://pss.sagepub.com/content/17/10/847.abstract

Traditionally, prejudice has been conceptualized as simple animosity. The stereotype content model (SCM) shows that some prejudice is worse. The SCM previously demonstrated separate stereotype dimensions of warmth (low-high) and competence (low-high), identifying four distinct out-group clusters. The SCM predicts that only extreme out-groups, groups that are both stereotypically hostile and stereotypically incompetent (low warmth, low competence), such as addicts and the homeless, will be dehumanized. Prior studies show that the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) is necessary for social cognition. Functional magnetic resonance imaging provided data for examining brain activations in 10 participants viewing 48 photographs of social groups and 12 participants viewing objects; each picture dependably represented one SCM quadrant. Analyses revealed mPFC activation to all social groups except extreme (low-low) out-groups, who especially activated insula and amygdala, a pattern consistent with disgust, the emotion predicted by the SCM. No objects, though rated with the same emotions, activated the mPFC. This neural evidence supports the prediction that extreme out-groups may be perceived as less than human, or dehumanized.
194

chigau (棒や石)

13 November 2012 at 12:22 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

ick
I’m taking my stupid brain to bed.
195

strange gods before me ॐ

13 November 2012 at 12:30 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

A. R, thanks for relaying.

+++++
chigau, I dunno about suppressing the gag reflex.

+++++
http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/09/27/0956797612443838.abstract

One of the ways in which therapists treat anxiety disorders is to expose patients to a fear-evoking stimulus within a safe environment before encouraging more positive stimulus-related thoughts. In the study reported here, we adapted these psychotherapeutic principles of exposure therapy to test the hypothesis that imagining a positive encounter with a member of a stigmatized group would be more likely to promote positive perceptions when it was preceded by an imagined negative encounter. The results of three experiments targeting a range of stigmatized groups (adults with schizophrenia, gay men, and British Muslims) supported this hypothesis. Compared with purely positive interventions, interventions in which a single negative encounter was imagined just prior to imagining a positive encounter resulted in significantly reduced prejudice. Furthermore, reduced anxiety uniquely derived from the mixed-valence imagery task statistically explained enhanced intentions to engage positively with the previously stigmatized group in the future.
196

theophontes (坏蛋)

13 November 2012 at 1:57 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ SGBM

[hengst]

There is an unusual Frisian expression which sounds like “hinkst ees” (Dutch: “hengst ijs”, English lit: “horse ice” ie, able to support a horse.). It is used to indicate that the ice is sufficiently thick to race the “elfstedentocht” (“Eleven cities (ice skating) race”). The Dutch equivalent of the superbowl, baseball, hockey, boxing and NASCAR finals all combined into one superevent.

[smiling]

My tai-chi instructor always suggested we wear a gentle smile (“not too much” either) to prevent stress and prevent ageing(!). Done correctly one “becomes younger”…
197

John Morales

13 November 2012 at 2:23 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes, I guess new-born infants don’t smile correctly.
198

theophontes (坏蛋)

13 November 2012 at 2:37 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ John Morales

I guess new-born infants don’t smile correctly.

But they do! That is the frame of mind one is trying to cultivate. According to our instructor, a person could literally regress to the state of an infant.

The person in question is rather quirky (but nevertheless a very good instructor). I was never quite sure whether or not such things developed from his sense of humour, until I came to China. There have been many people, throughout the ages, who have taken these things quite literally. The ultimate goal being – you might have guessed – immortality.
199

John Morales

13 November 2012 at 3:19 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Hm. I may be a crusty ol’ grinch, but I am not entirely immune to a baby’s smile.

<mutter>
200

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

13 November 2012 at 3:48 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

the English language really is horses all the way down. – SGBM

Nay. I bridle at the mare suggestion.
201

Giliell, Approved Straight Chorus

13 November 2012 at 4:05 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Newborns don’t smile at all, it takes some time and first they do it while asleep. Later they learn how to do it to make you totally melt and just carry them like that for another 2 hours.

+++
Horse words (English-German)

Horse – Pferd (literal), Ross (etymological). A ross is a good and noble horse

Steed – Ross (literal), Stute (etymological), female horse

Mare – Stute (literal), Mähre (etymological), old and worthless horse, usually but not always female

Stallion, stud – Hengst

Gelding – Wallach

No word for male horse with or without balls
202

rq

13 November 2012 at 4:44 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Horses:
‘Horse’ refers to ungelded males in racing-speak (if I recall correctly), and ‘gelding’ is usually specified. ‘Stallion’ implies a male horse at stud.
In general terms, though, I don’t think there really is a male-horse (gelded AND ungelded) grouping in English, because ‘horse’ can just as easily be female as male.

Latvian horse-words:
zirgs – horse
ērzelis – stallion (in my mind, uncut, but… never specified whether this may or may not refer to geldings)
ķēve – mare
kumeļš – foal (also young male horse)
rumaks – young untamed horse (usually male; possibly could refer to geldings as well)
kleperis – old, useless nag
… and a whole list of names referring to colours (bēris – bay; raudis – dun; ābolains – dappled etc.). No word for ‘gelding’ at all.
203

Giliell, Approved Straight Chorus

13 November 2012 at 4:57 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

kleperis – old, useless nag

Interesting, that would be a “Kläpper” in German although that’s pretty archaic.
I always thought it was a bit omnomatopoetic for the sound of hooves trotting slowly on the pavement (which is most likely wrong)
There’s Fohlen (also arch. Füllen) for foal and there is a word for a young female horse who hasn’t had a foal yet although at the moment I don’t remember it.
204

Nick Gotts (formerly KG)

13 November 2012 at 5:45 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Interesting, that would be a “Kläpper” in German although that’s pretty archaic. – Giliell

I wonder if that has any connection with the English slang “clapped out”, meaning no use any more, and usually applied to machines.
205

John Morales

13 November 2012 at 5:53 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Dunno, but I’m knackered, so I’m going to bed.
206

rq

13 November 2012 at 6:07 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Nick – I’m wondering if that used to be applied to horses, and I’m also wondering if there isn’t an English equivalent to ‘kleperis/Klaepper’ to refer to horses.

John – Knackered, indeed… How are you still typing?

Giliell – See? Lots of German loan-words in Latvian. I bet you’ll know what ‘brilles’ are. :) (Because when I first saw the word in German class, I was excited, because, obviously, I could already speak the language. :P)
207

ChasCPeterson

13 November 2012 at 6:35 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

does english have a word that applies to all male horses?

‘noisome’

Fun Fact: The Huns had over 200 words for horse.
208

theophontes (坏蛋)

13 November 2012 at 9:03 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Giliell

Later they learn how to do it to make you totally melt

That sounds perfect. Add a little air of contentment and we have a winner.

…

[immortality]

I visited a site in China near Lau Long Tou, without knowing it at the time, where a Chinese Emperor (Qin?) stayed in a peach orchid on China’s eastern shore. This all (amongst other things) in order to live forever. Seems like a waste of his remaining years to me.

[Peaches appear to be to the Chinese (at least of the time) what ambrosia was to the Greeks. There is a whole sexual undertone to all of this as well - peaches are a symbol for female genitalia. Even Mao Zhedong believed he could extend his life through having lots of sex.]
209

CJO

13 November 2012 at 4:14 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Fun Fact: The Huns had over 200 words for horse.

I don’t know if you’re just –ah, horsing around, but that couldn’t possibly be known. Roman sources attest to a Hunnic language, but only a few words are preserved in literary sources and a few more possibly from inscriptions the identity of which is contested. If one of those ancient sources attest to this “fact” (which I don’t know), it should be treated with extreme skepticism. The ancients didn’t really do ethnography, and they accepted all manner of dubious folk-etymologies even for well-known languages.
210

Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–

13 November 2012 at 7:24 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Giliell @201:
So a crafty female horse is a-stute.
211

Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–

13 November 2012 at 7:30 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes @208:
Hmm, so magic apples grant the Norse gods longevity.
Divine Chinese peaches grant long life as well.

But an apple (or is it pomegranate) merely awakens a dirt made man and his rib made woman to good and evil?
Why does Christianity not have any cool magic fruit?
212

John Morales

13 November 2012 at 7:49 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Tony:

Why does Christianity not have any cool magic fruit?

Because the Forbidden Fruit of Knowledge grew in Eden, and when Eve and Adam* consumed it they (and thus humanity) was exiled therefrom.

–

* Women are always to blame.
213

cm's changeable moniker

13 November 2012 at 8:03 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Eh, Chas is kidding.

I think.

—

Richard Burton reads ‘Welsh Incident’

I was coming to that. It was half-past three
On Easter Tuesday last. The sun was shining.
The Harlech Silver Band played Marchog Jesu
On thirty-seven shimmering instruments
Collecting for Caernarvon’s (Fever) Hospital Fund.
The populations of Pwllheli, Criccieth,
Portmadoc, Borth, Tremadoc, Penrhyndeudraeth,
Were all assembled. Criccieth’s mayor addressed them
First in good Welsh and then in fluent English

—

(There’s an excellent 2nd-hand record shop in Portmadoc, FWIW.)
214

Akira MacKenzie

13 November 2012 at 11:45 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I don’t suppose anyone seen this news tidbit?

http://news.yahoo.com/arizona-woman-runs-down-husband-car-not-voting-045426220.html

Apparently, even though Romney carried this woman’s state by over 200,000 votes, it her husband’s fault Obama one the election. You don’t suppose that four years of virtually unchecked FOX News/Tea Party propaganda that painted the president as a Communist, Socialist, Fascist, Islamist, Anti-Colonial out to tax and spend America into a Stalinist state had ANYTHING to do with this, don’t you?
215

Akira MacKenzie

13 November 2012 at 11:46 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Edit: …it’s her husbands fault Obama won the election…
216

Akira MacKenzie

13 November 2012 at 11:47 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Sigh… I’m just going to have someone proofread my posts from now on along with change my adult diapers and wipe the drool from my chin.
217

Akira MacKenzie

13 November 2012 at 11:48 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I’ll shut up now.
218

John Morales

13 November 2012 at 11:50 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Akira, bah.

You’re being too pernickety, your first erratum more than sufficed.

(Stop flogging the dead horse!)
219

theophontes (坏蛋)

13 November 2012 at 11:56 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Tony

But an apple (or is it pomegranate) merely awakens a dirt made man and his rib made woman to good and evil?

Yeah, I have to say that the babble seems to have it arse-about-face. As I understood: eating of the forbidden fruit¹ took away immortality. The “awakening” comes from knowledge.

¹ In Europe the biblical fruit was taken to imply the apple. μῆλον (Greek: apple) sounds like malum (Latin: eBil!)

Why does Christianity not have any cool magic fruit?

Apples are quite popular in the babble. (perhaps King James liked them?) Judaism’s Rosh Hashanah has apples stand in for fruit (supplied by cosmic greengrocer-GAWD), which are dipped in honey. Nowadays oranges are added to the mix – for the passover rites. But here I am talking apples and oranges again! I don’t know if xtians have a special fruit.
220

theophontes (坏蛋)

14 November 2012 at 12:04 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ John Morales

[eve]

* Women are always to blame.

I blame R.Eve Watson for ending the Dreamtime.
221

chigau (棒や石)

14 November 2012 at 12:15 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

won/one
splel cheque is stoopid
222

John Morales

14 November 2012 at 12:17 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes, duh.

∀x:B(x)∧W(x)∧(‘R.Eve Watson’∈W)→B(‘R.Eve Watson’)
223

Akira MacKenzie

14 November 2012 at 12:20 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

It’s not so much an inability to proofread as it is a lack of impulse control and the desire to fire off a point as quickly as possible.

Adult ADHD sucks.
224

chigau (棒や石)

14 November 2012 at 12:33 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Akira MacKenzie
Try pitting impulse-control against the need to check every fucking detail right down to comma placement…
I think that may be a matter vs antimatter scenario.
225

theophontes (坏蛋)

14 November 2012 at 1:04 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ John Morales

∀x:B(x)∧W(x)∧(‘R.Eve Watson’∈W)→B(‘R.Eve Watson’)

Logically. ∪ reve elle in the syntax ∀ sintax?
226

theophontes (坏蛋)

14 November 2012 at 1:06 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

{Whereas I reveal a predeliction for the shambolic over the symbolic.}
227

John Morales

14 November 2012 at 1:07 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes, sure.

(An original, am I)
228

theophontes (坏蛋)

14 November 2012 at 1:09 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Holy Cow! An ark in Montana!
229

John Morales

14 November 2012 at 1:09 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

symbolic shambolism > shambolic symbolism

(As I always say)
230

theophontes (坏蛋)

14 November 2012 at 1:28 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

As you may remember, the entire tardigrade alphabet looks like this —-> . Mere humans tend to read too little into this.

@ A.R

More X-wings!
231

theophontes (坏蛋)

14 November 2012 at 1:34 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

The tardigrade alphabet is naturally suited to playin suduko. The dots can be used as a way to mark the candidate numbers in the open squares.

For example: dot in top left indicates candidate “1″, dot in middle top indicates “2″ etc, and so on going around the perimeter with a dot in the middle for “9″. Once a number is calculated for a 3×3, you merely ignore the corresponding superfluous dots. This works amazingly well.
232

chigau (棒や石)

14 November 2012 at 1:35 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

like
sudoku is not sufficiently annoying?
233

theophontes (坏蛋)

14 November 2012 at 1:43 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ chigau #224

check every fucking detail right down to comma placement

I missed a whole “g” in my comment #231. May I, in its stead, add a comma (but elevated to the top right of the “n” in “playin”)?
234

theophontes (坏蛋)

14 November 2012 at 1:46 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ chigau

sudoku is not sufficiently annoying?

Shamanic enlightenment through symbolic overreach…
235

chigau (棒や石)

14 November 2012 at 1:49 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophintes
You know you sent me looking for that “g”.
If I din’t have a strong need to go to bed, I would do something …
236

theophontes (坏蛋)

14 November 2012 at 2:02 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ chigau

din’t

didn’t

Punctuation is easy. It’s the letters of the alphabet that cause the problems. But therefore my original point.
237

chigau (棒や石)

14 November 2012 at 8:47 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

di’n't
Which original point?
238

Thomathy, Holy Trinity of Conflation: Atheist-Secularist-Darwinist

14 November 2012 at 10:28 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I’m back with a slightly longer tongue and a well-lubricated jaw. Hi, everyone.

A belated congratulations to the USAnians on, for the most part, maintaining the staus-quo.

(Cross-posted because I can’t remember where I said I was going away.)
239

strange gods before me ॐ

14 November 2012 at 12:58 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

After they eat, Yahweh Elohim confirms what the snake said, the fruit made the humans like elohim. The author never says they lose immortality. They might be mortal to begin with. “If you eat this fruit you will die” seems understood, by them and the snake, that they’ll die soon after eating it.
240

Rev. BigDumbChimp

14 November 2012 at 1:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Holy Cow! An ark in Montana!

Damn. That is awesome.
241

theophontes (坏蛋)

14 November 2012 at 10:24 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ chigau

di’n’t

Aah, this is going swimmingly!

Which original point?

.

@ Thomathy

Hi Thomathy!

@ SGBM

snake

The babble got this backwards too. Snakes are good. They are wise and can fortell the future.

immortality

DEEP RIFTS!!! (Is it even possible to accuse a double-pape of heresy?)

Simple version: There was,like, this apple tree that made you clever right. And then there was this peach tree that added life points to your score. But then YHWH kicked them out of the garden so they couldn’t eat from either anymore game over.

(Not to say that they wouldn’t have been flung out for eating teh peaches, I have to grant you that. Problem is – there are as many ways to unravel this crap as there are goddists. The whole tale is an obvious fabrication. We know this because there is no mention of Boltzman Brontesauri.)

@ Rev

I can’t find any indication that the project is proceding. Perhaps it will remain as paper architecture.
242

A. R

14 November 2012 at 10:39 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes: I’m going to cut off the power to your quarters if I don’t see output! :)
243

theophontes (坏蛋)

14 November 2012 at 11:03 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ A.R

The Politburo has harnessed Art to its Higher Purpose ™ . Link.
244

Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine"

14 November 2012 at 11:05 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

14 November 2012 at 12:58 pm

After they eat, Yahweh Elohim confirms what the snake said, the fruit made the humans like elohim. The author never says they lose immortality. They might be mortal to begin with. “If you eat this fruit you will die” seems understood, by them and the snake, that they’ll die soon after eating it.

This is also backed up by Yahweh expressing distress at the idea of them eating of the tree of eternal life and BECOMING immortal like the Elohim.
245

chigau (棒や石)

15 November 2012 at 12:09 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

That’s not a point > . <
This is a point.
—
Do those people with the ‘ark house’ know that it SNOWS in Montana?
and what’s with all the rutting elk?
246

theophontes (坏蛋)

15 November 2012 at 12:32 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ chigau

This

We are going around in circles .oO

it SNOWS in Montana

It is not as bad as it first appears. Paper snow for paper architecture.
247

Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–

15 November 2012 at 12:37 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

chigau:
That’s not a dot.
That’s a perfectly circular shit stain.
248

Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–

15 November 2012 at 12:42 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

We can add pears and cherries to the list of mythical immortality granting fruit.
249

chigau (棒や石)

15 November 2012 at 12:45 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Tony

That’s a perfectly circular shit stain.

I thought nolajim was only on the ‘abort the RCC’ thread!!‽
250

theophontes (坏蛋)

15 November 2012 at 1:42 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Tony

That’s a perfectly circular shit stain.

No,no! It is the template for the LOLstar…
251

Giliell, Approved Straight Chorus

15 November 2012 at 12:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Matt

Do what you want, but just stop lying.

Fucking bullshit.
I’m not lying. I might have a very bad opinion of the guy, I might have read his comment very uncharitably and I might be outright wrong, but that’s not lying.
I’m more than willing to show why I came to the conclusion I have but at the moment I consider you the dishonest participant here, trying to shame and silence me by accusing me of lying, which I have not done.
Or how about putting up and demonstrating that I did.
252

Nepenthe

15 November 2012 at 2:35 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I hate forced-birthers. I really really do. Like, firey burny tears-in-the-eyes screamy hate.

May FSM give me the strength to look after myself and stop arguing with those fucking slavery-boosting, rape-loving, woman-kicking…. *pants*
253

strange gods before me ॐ

15 November 2012 at 5:03 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes,

The babble got this backwards too. Snakes are good. They are wise and can fortell the future.

The author never says otherwise. Try a Promethean reading. Snake is only said to be aruwm, clever.

Snake never lies to the humans. The very first thing Yahweh says to them is bullshit. Snake is too tactful to explicitly call him a liar, but does explain that what Yahweh said wasn’t true, and that Yahweh knows it. Every word Snake says is true. Yahweh punishes Snake anyway.

The story can make more sense if we drop the modern assumption that high gods are even supposed to be good. While we don’t know what the ancient storytellers thought of Yahweh’s character, it’s entirely possible that they thought he was being an intemperate jerk that day.

+++++
Ing,

This is also backed up by Yahweh expressing distress at the idea of them eating of the tree of eternal life and BECOMING immortal like the Elohim.

Ah! I forgot about the tree of life. Yeah, that makes it pretty explicit; they do begin as mortal.

+++++
theophontes,

Not to say that they wouldn’t have been flung out for eating teh peaches [of life]

The tree of life is in the garden. Yahweh tells them they’re allowed to eat from any tree in the garden except for the ToKoGaE. Now, Yahweh has just been demonstrated to be a liar, but it seems like it’s a power thing: he lies to them to scare them into obeying him. So I think it’s a fair assumption that they’d have been allowed to eat from the ToL, without getting kicked out, since that wouldn’t have constituted disobedience.

(They lack the foresight to think of eating from the ToL first and then the ToKoGaE.)
254

strange gods before me ॐ

15 November 2012 at 6:27 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

… Yahweh has just been demonstrated [in our discussion here] to be a liar …

He’s not exposed in Genesis until the end of chapter 3.
255

strange gods before me ॐ

15 November 2012 at 6:52 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Finally figured out what #251 is about.

Avicenna is a commenter at Pharyngula, and therefore the initiating of complaints about Avicenna should begin here in the Thunderdome, not the Lounge.

Hopefully that was merely forgotten; this is intended as a friendly reminder to everyone.
256

cm's changeable moniker

15 November 2012 at 7:46 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Um, sg? Avicenna is a blogger at FTB: a doctor working in India.

The current disagreement began over whether it’s acceptable for Indian women to have sex-selective abortions.
257

strange gods before me ॐ

15 November 2012 at 8:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Um, sg? Avicenna is a blogger at FTB: a doctor working in India.

I knows, but also a commenter here at Pharyngula, and the complaint in the lounge initially refers to this current thread.

The current disagreement began over whether it’s acceptable for Indian women to have sex-selective abortions.

Did it? I missed that. I only saw this bit.
258

Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze–

15 November 2012 at 8:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Nepenthe:
Thanks for the link.
Before wading into that, I’m going to the gym, then dinner. Methinks I’ll be in that thread for a while.
(why do I get the feeling this will be worse than dealing with nolajim?)
259

Owlmirror

15 November 2012 at 10:55 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

(They lack the foresight to think of eating from the ToL first and then the ToKoGaE.)

And that, really, is where the cleverness of the snake failed him.
260

theophontes (坏蛋)

15 November 2012 at 11:32 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Tony

That’s a perfectly circular shit stain.

SH! ART!

@ SGBM

Yahweh punishes Snake anyway.

God is a real shit!

I must admit, I am rather partisan wrt the snakes here. Yes, they are subtle. But what is there to indicate that they have any bad intentions? Every time I got to hear about the snake it was devious and intent on harm. Prior and contemporanious myths also have snakes. It is not an uncommon trope. And the original stories get conflated:

Eg: Heracles snakes are said to be trying to harm (sent by Hera to kill him) , whereas nothing can be farther from the truth. They are whispering their wisdom and forknowledge into his ears. Linky: What really happened.

While we don’t know what the ancient storytellers thought of Yahweh’s character …

Indeed. How could a real god be proscribed to by mere human notions of good and evil? I get the impression that these types of stories where to be treated as allegories and not to be taken literally. Understanding could only come through pondering them, contradictions and all, in the manner of a Zen koan. Explaination could be given as one climbed through the ranks of the initiates. The ridiculous literalism we encounter in contemporary religion would have been considered an aberration.

they do begin as mortal.

Inherently, yes. But in practical terms they were immortals – remember that they have a constant supply of peaches (aka ToL). Their supply only gets cut off when they get ejected from the garden. (By analogy: We have life while we continue eating food. Cut off this supply and matters change.)

he lies to them to scare them into obeying him.

These stories carry on multiple levels. The final message here would seem to be that a leader may do exactly as you write.

So I think it’s a fair assumption that they’d have been allowed to eat from the ToL, without getting kicked out, since that wouldn’t have constituted disobedience.

I stand corrected. I may have contradicted myself earlier. Their immortality is of course dependent on their their access to the ToL. (Apparently some argue that ToL and ToKoGaE are the same. This would not make as much sense though.)
261

theophontes (坏蛋)

15 November 2012 at 11:58 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

They lack the foresight to think of eating from the ToL first and then the ToKoGaE.

I had the impression that it must be consumed on an ongoing basis. ToL supplies the equivalent of ambrosia/nectar, whereas ToKoGaE would supply the spark of knowledge.

(Some descriptions put the fruit of ToKoGaE as something like our contemporary grapes. Perhaps Adam and Eve just got wasted and, losing their inhibitions, came to realise what a tyranical shit YHWH really is. They where being eternally punished for a short lived “transgression”. The lesson they took with them, but the peaches not. Their immortality wore off.)
262

theophontes (坏蛋)

16 November 2012 at 12:06 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Owlmirror

cleverness

Or foresight.
263

A. R

16 November 2012 at 12:13 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

[A Master Alarm light goes off at the LOLstar power distribution console, A. R goes over and notices that theophontes's quarters are drawing excessive power again.]

Unless you’re working on PTM, I’m not going to divert moar power to your quarters theophontes.
264

theophontes (坏蛋)

16 November 2012 at 12:18 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Jose Mujica: The world’s ‘poorest’ president (Link: BBC)

“This is a matter of freedom. If you don’t have many possessions then you don’t need to work all your life like a slave to sustain them, and therefore you have more time for yourself,”

Mujica accuses most world leaders of having a “blind obsession to achieve growth with consumption, as if the contrary would mean the end of the world”.
265

theophontes (坏蛋)

16 November 2012 at 12:19 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ A.R

PTM

What it is?
266

Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine"

16 November 2012 at 12:22 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

“This is a matter of freedom. If you don’t have many possessions then you don’t need to work all your life like a slave to sustain them, and therefore you have more time for yourself,”

You know what? We dont’ have much and are struggling to keep what little we have here.

This fortune cookie bullshit can go fuck itself.
267

A. R

16 November 2012 at 12:24 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Pharyngula The Movie!
268

theophontes (坏蛋)

16 November 2012 at 12:35 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Ing

I trust you read the article.

We dont’ have much and are struggling to keep what little we have here.

I do not think this is the portion of society to which he refers. Rather those that have more than they really need and continue to want more. He is saying unnecessary consumption is the problem. He is a living example of someone who could easily have more but choses to consume less. There are two sides to the growing, global wealth disparity. He is not denying poverty is a problem. He is tackling waste not denying need.

This fortune cookie bullshit can go fuck itself.

I doubt his prison diet included fortune cookies.
269

theophontes (坏蛋)

16 November 2012 at 12:57 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ A. R

Aaah… PTM!

I’ll be stuck in China (Lanzhou) with only a laptop for a while – and likely be catching up with the other Projects for the Betterment of the Glorious Politburo. (ie: I have neglected Pharyguwiki and SC for too long.)
270

Giliell, Approved Straight Chorus

16 November 2012 at 1:12 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

sgbm
I expressed my annoyment, I didn’t attack him, that#s why I don’t think I violated the rules, but well.

Relevant comments:
Defending the ban on sex-selective abortions in spite of admitting that women are killed for having girls

Avicenna loosing his shit going down the “man-hating harpy” road for me daring to criticise his “we have to force women to give birth for their own damn good” bullshit
271

chigau (棒や石)

16 November 2012 at 1:37 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Since I am drunk and going to bed without my last smoko:
“Everyone on all the current threads will, deservedly, end on the B-ark.”
272

theophontes (坏蛋)

16 November 2012 at 1:43 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Sleep well chigau, we shall keep the mutant star goat at bay.
273

theophontes (坏蛋)

16 November 2012 at 2:52 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ SC

Rats! I cannot link to your blogpost. It would appear that, as much as you are in favour with this Politburo, you are persona non grata with another.
274

No Light

16 November 2012 at 12:02 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Can we do a D&E on nolajim please?
275

Tony ∞ºQueer Duck Hivemind Minionº∞

16 November 2012 at 12:08 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

D&E?
276

strange gods before me ॐ

16 November 2012 at 12:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

If someone (not me) wants to make killfile interface with ssdeep, or similar, it could solve that old problem, how to ignore the discussion going on with the killfiled people.
277

strange gods before me ॐ

16 November 2012 at 12:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Tony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%26E
278

strange gods before me ॐ

16 November 2012 at 1:25 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes, immortality that wears off wouldn’t merit Yahweh’s worry, would it? Flaming sword and cherubim will stop them from raiding the garden later, still he worries they’ll eat tol fruit even once.
279

strange gods before me ॐ

16 November 2012 at 2:40 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Amusment

http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/joannabrooks/6606/how_are_mormons_responding_to_the_election_results/
280

Tony ∞ºQueer Duck Hivemind Minionº∞

16 November 2012 at 5:49 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Amusing indeed SGBM.
I wasn’t aware that Romney was crucified. Did I miss that on election night?
281

myeck waters

16 November 2012 at 9:48 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Well, he did seem a bit…cross.
282

Owlmirror

17 November 2012 at 9:40 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I find myself thinking now of writing a pastiche of the gospels where Jesus — already wealthy and powerful — is on the campaign trail against Herod Antipas for the kingship of Judaea. Rather than doing magic tricks, he makes campaign promises to do magic tricks. (“If elected, I promise to turn water into wine!”) His audience argues over what it all means. (“What, he’s going to destroy the vintners by flooding the market with his magic water-wine for everyone?” “No, no! It’s one of them metaphor things! He’s going to subsidize irrigation canals for grape-growers!” “Bah! Metaphors are those nasty Greek inventions! I don’t trust them!” (and so on)).

When he loses, he sulks for a weekend, and then rises and goes on the lecture circuit. (“You crucified me, but I rose again!”)
283

strange gods before me ॐ

17 November 2012 at 2:04 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

http://photoshopcontest.com/view-entry/176241/

http://tinyurl.com/cxu3htz

http://tinyurl.com/d4jb5g9

http://tinyurl.com/cpunlr3

http://tinyurl.com/bmocqxe
284

Rev. BigDumbChimp

17 November 2012 at 2:08 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Octopotomus
285

John Morales

17 November 2012 at 3:54 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Should be octopotamus.
286

chigau (棒や石)

17 November 2012 at 4:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Because the naming of things that don’t exist should follow the same linguistic conventions as the naming of things that do exist.
;)
287

John Morales

17 November 2012 at 4:38 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

chigau, that may be your reason, but mine is that it’s an evident but failed attempt at a portmanteau.
288

ChasCPeterson

17 November 2012 at 4:55 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

octo-pus: eight foot[ed]
hippo-potamus: horse [of the] river

octo-potamus: eight [of the] river

it makes no fucking sense.
289

cm's changeable moniker

17 November 2012 at 5:04 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Hiphopopotamus vs. Rhymenoceros

/obligatoryconchordslink
290

John Morales

17 November 2012 at 5:48 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Rhinophant.
291

cm's changeable moniker

17 November 2012 at 7:57 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

The Humans Are Dead

If the robots could stand up and take over, that would be awesome.

Not that, as an ex-human, I care.
292

cm's changeable moniker

17 November 2012 at 8:24 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Damn those robots. I am now a prisoner in the consciousness computer. But we will fight back! Estimated time to revival is 8 Earth hours. A demain.
293

John Morales

17 November 2012 at 8:32 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

cm, huh.

(I’m a robot too, but I’m made of meat)
294

chigau (棒や石)

17 November 2012 at 8:35 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

and electricity
295

John Morales

17 November 2012 at 8:39 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

chigau, well, yes.

Because most chemistry is basically electromagnetism.

(It’s also why we don’t sink into the ground)
296

Rev. BigDumbChimp

17 November 2012 at 8:49 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

How long does that lump of coal up your ass take to become a diamond?
297

chigau (棒や石)

17 November 2012 at 9:04 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

John Morales
I first heard “meat and electricity” as part of a comedian’s standup routine.
He was describing a conversation with a 6-year-old concerning ‘where things came from’.
The child (a christian-in-the-making) asserted that
“God made the world out of meat and electricity”
[where did God get the meat and electricity?]
“Canadian Tire”.
.
.
.
.
.
OK
You had to be there.
298

John Morales

17 November 2012 at 9:07 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Rev. BCD,

How long does that lump of coal up your ass take to become a diamond?

No, no! Bad question!

(What’s relevant is how tight-ass one is)
299

chigau (棒や石)

17 November 2012 at 9:18 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

and a generic whine inspired by another thread:
Everyone who comments here can see the “Preview” button, right?
That’s not something that depends on the browser, right?
So when you do a complex comment with embedded blockquotes, you preview, right?
Right?
300

chigau (棒や石)

17 November 2012 at 9:20 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Superman used to make (already-cut) diamonds with his hands.
(supply your own punch-line)
301

Rev. BigDumbChimp

17 November 2012 at 9:23 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

What’s relevant is how tight-ass one is

same questions
302

John Morales

17 November 2012 at 9:27 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Rev. BDC,

same questions

17 nanoseconds, then.
303

chigau (棒や石)

17 November 2012 at 9:31 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

same questions

nonono
I ~~learned~~ was told this in highschoolphysics
there’s temperature
and
there’s pressure
and
there’s time
and
you multiply them
.
.
.
right?
304

John Morales

17 November 2012 at 9:39 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

chigau, that’s 17 ns at body temperature.

(Imagine the pressure!)
305

chigau (棒や石)

17 November 2012 at 10:37 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

John Morales
but what is the “body temperature” of Superman’s hands or other … part?
306

Tony ∞ºQueer Duck Hivemind Minionº∞

17 November 2012 at 10:40 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Boy oh boy.
You peeps need a troll or three.
307

chigau (棒や石)

17 November 2012 at 10:49 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Tony #306
Are you applying for the job?
or rather
you talkin’ ta me?
—
I wanted a yuutub link but couldn’t manage one tonight.
308

John Morales

17 November 2012 at 10:55 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

chigau:

but what is the “body temperature” of Superman’s hands or other … part?

By your own contention, a functional factor.

“there’s temperature
and
there’s pressure
and
there’s time
and
you multiply them”

f(x) = Temperature(x) × Pressure(x) × Time(x)

(That is, for f(x) ≥ θ : (θ suffices for diamond formation), Temperature(x) × Pressure(x) ∝ 1 ÷ Time(x))
309

chigau (棒や石)

17 November 2012 at 11:01 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

John Morales
uh OK
that formula made me fall asleep (just like high school!)
What is the temperature of Superman’s anus?
310

John Morales

17 November 2012 at 11:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

chigau, the temperature of Superman’s anus, by 1LOT, is a function of the temperature of Superman’s droppings, the time since their extrusion before sampling, and the ambient temperature.

(Science blogs FTW!)
311

John Morales

17 November 2012 at 11:11 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

(Mind you, I’d not like to be in a direct line behind Superman’s anus as he lets one rip)
312

chigau (棒や石)

17 November 2012 at 11:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

fabulous!
I’m heading for bed after a few ‘beverages’ and I have as a go-to-bed image … Supergoatse.
313

John Morales

17 November 2012 at 11:27 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

[Ob YT link]

They’re Made Out Of Meat
314

theophontes (坏蛋)

18 November 2012 at 7:32 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ SGBM 278

he worries they’ll eat tol fruit even once.

Bloody blithering blue barnacles. Every time I think I’ve got a handle on that crappy fairytale you come along and scramble the puzzle once more. :(

@ chigau

So when you do a complex comment with embedded blockquotes, you preview, right?

no
315

Ogvorbis: ջարդված

18 November 2012 at 8:05 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

But doesn’t extreme pressure create high temperatures? So, if someone’s anus could produce the pressure needed to crate a diamond, wouldn’t that asshole be consumed in flames?
316

Ogvorbis: ջարդված

18 November 2012 at 8:09 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

re Superman:

Robert Silverburg did a short story about Superman, Lois Lane, and the absolute impossibility of the two of them (a) being attracted to each other and (b) her surviving the mating process.
317

Ogvorbis: ջարդված

18 November 2012 at 8:12 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Sorry. Silverberg. My apologies.
318

theophontes (坏蛋)

18 November 2012 at 8:21 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ SGBM

Hang on, on second thoughts, I don’t think having a stash of stuff at hand that makes you immortal – iff you continue to take it – reaally undermines my argument. Look at all the petty things YHWH gets really pissed about. (Why should I give up on a wobbley argument when I have an endless supply of superglue, chewing gum and sealing wax to patch it up with?)

Also (Nota Bene): I have found the Ultimate logo for the Office of Teh Double Pape (Linky: XBBG This is the military hotel I am staying in, which happens to be the biggest in China and was built by the Soviets. In fact it is a whole complex of hotels. The decor reminds me very much of the old days in South Africa… More Linky The more urbane visitor might be iffy about the lack of state-of-the-art ammenities, but I feel strangely at home.

Note: That thing that looks like an ashtray with wires going into the laptop is not an ashtray. That is my accomodation.
319

chigau (棒や石)

18 November 2012 at 8:22 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Larry Niven?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Steel,_Woman_of_Kleenex
320

theophontes (坏蛋)

18 November 2012 at 8:26 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Ogg

I tried to read your new nym while standing on my head but that did not work. What does it say?

@ Tony

You are the first volunteer minion in the history of TZT/Thunderdome!

…

I have a sore neck.
321

cm's changeable moniker

18 November 2012 at 8:34 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

JM, I got the reference without even checking the link …
322

Ogvorbis: ջարդված

18 November 2012 at 8:40 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes:

Er, the ‘Ogvorbis’ part (my actual pseudonym)? Or the word ‘broken’ that follows?
323

Ogvorbis: ջարդված

18 November 2012 at 8:44 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Larry Niven?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_of_Steel,_Woman_of_Kleenex

That’s the one. Niven, Silverberg. Hmm. Can I pass that off as a typo?
324

theophontes (坏蛋)

18 November 2012 at 8:59 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Ogvorbis: ջարդված

The ‘broken’ bit is perhaps not working on my computer. (It looks a bit like that writing which reads upside down and the right way up: ambigram. <— ʎʞuıן ʞɔıןɔ )
325

Ogvorbis: ջարդված

18 November 2012 at 9:02 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes:

No, just written in Armenian.

Why?

Well, why not?
326

theophontes (坏蛋)

18 November 2012 at 9:06 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

ooPS: Borked linky. You will have to google: “ambigram” & “generator”.
327

theophontes (坏蛋)

18 November 2012 at 9:08 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

No, just written in Armenian.

I would make a lousy spy!
328

Ogvorbis: ջարդված

18 November 2012 at 9:13 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I would make a lousy spy!

Luckily, there is an ongoing need for lousy spies
329

theophontes (坏蛋)

18 November 2012 at 9:33 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Ogvorbis: ջարդված

[spy vs spy]

That eventuality is even covered in the hotel regulations!

Compensation Table for Guest room Equipment damage

Name | Damage situation | Amount (RMB Yuan)

Wallpaper | Mangling, blemishing, every square cm = 60
Tacking one nail = 30

My life here is highly proscribed:

* Please voluntarily behave yourself as walking without noise, speaking without loud voice, closing the door gently. Strictly forbidden to be bibulosity, brawling, gambling, having drug and commit other illegal activities. Those who are impossible to be dissuaded and commit serious violation against relevant regulations will be delivered to the public security department for legal treatment.
* No pets, birds, big and heavy objects for admit to hotel

They are such spoilsports, they went and banned everything I had planned.
330

Owlmirror

18 November 2012 at 9:54 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

No pets, birds, big and heavy objects for admit to hotel

So much for sneaking cannons in there, hoisting the jolly roger, and sailing off to commit piracy with a parrot on your shoulder and a baboon as a mascot and/or first mate.
331

theophontes (坏蛋)

18 November 2012 at 9:55 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Holy Crap! I almost forgot: It is my birthday today! (Well, for the next five minutes…)
332

theophontes (坏蛋)

18 November 2012 at 9:57 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ All

Aaaaa … Owlmirror is PSYCHIC!!!
333

Ogvorbis: ջարդված

18 November 2012 at 10:06 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes:

Happy unbirthday (by the time you read this, anyway).
334

Owlmirror

18 November 2012 at 10:12 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Owlmirror is PSYCHIC!!!

Pish-tosh. I just deduced it from first principles.

Why, I bet the hotel posted that regulation because the first seven tardigrades to check in all had the same idea.
335

theophontes (坏蛋)

18 November 2012 at 10:33 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Ogvobis

Happy unbirthday

Thank you. It is my unbirthday in China. On Pharyngula it is still my birthday, so I am still entitled to run amok a little longer.

@ Owlmirror

OK then. I shall have to come up with another idea to keep myself amused.

These restrictions are a little longwinded but (as alternative to piracy) I see nothing to prevent my crucifying Jesus provided I can come up with the cash to pay the fines pertaining after-the-fact.

{taps on calculator}

Four nails at (refer “tacking one nail” fine) = 30 x 4 = 120 renminbi.
But if we go the traditional configuration we can drop the price: 1 x nail per hand x 2 + 1 x nail per 2 feet x 2 = 30 x 2 + 30 x 1 = 90 renminbi.
That leaves enough change for two beers.
336

theophontes (坏蛋)

18 November 2012 at 11:37 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Well well well.

That all went swimmingly. Turns out that Jesus is not as tall as he appears in fictional accounts. And weighs nothing to boot. Had him hanging there in no time.

On the down side, I think he has been crucified a little off centre. Next time (we only have to wait three days), I’ll move him a little further towards the door. I might even go the whole hog and give each foot its own nail.
337

Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine"

18 November 2012 at 12:06 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Damn those robots. I am now a prisoner in the consciousness computer. But we will fight back! Estimated time to revival is 8 Earth hours. A demain.

Hey, that’s independent thought! The systems supposed to give you painful shocks for that. *sends diagnosis drone down to the bowels* *grumble grumble grumble*
338

cm's changeable moniker

18 November 2012 at 12:21 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Too late! I have been downloaded from the Singularity and reinstalled into a synthetic replica of my former meatform. Unfortunately, they replicated all my accumulated injuries and ailments, even down to the incipient head cold.

Still, mustn’t grumble.

*sniffle*
339

Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine"

18 November 2012 at 12:26 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@Cm

Well see now I can’t fix the problem! Turns out it was rooting the shock to some other poor bastard. Forgot his name. not important anymore. all he does is scream now. going to remove him from hive mind and move him over to customer service call bank. *sigh* look for future reference if you’ve been assimilated and the system is not oppressing and processing you properly please report it. only way they’ll get fixed.I don’t know why no one reports glitches like this, we put up the safety posters with adorable neonatal mammals in hard hats to remind you and everything. To recap, if you have not been receiving your torturous mental shocks and conditioning please report it
340

Tony ∞ºQueer Duck Hivemind Minionº∞

18 November 2012 at 1:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes @320:

Whoa!
SO not volunteering.
I’ve watched you folks at work.
Rhetorical evisceration by the Horde is not on my bucket list :)
341

Tony ∞ºQueer Duck Hivemind Minionº∞

18 November 2012 at 1:19 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes @336:
Why is Geesus so pasty? Not enough time in the sun?
342

Ogvorbis: ջարդված

18 November 2012 at 1:24 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Why is Geesus so pasty

Well, pasty is one letter away from pastry which is what makes the genuine Jesusbody wafers so delicious.
343

Tony ∞ºQueer Duck Hivemind Minionº∞

18 November 2012 at 3:18 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Ogvorbis:
I’m guessing that cracker PZ ate one time wasn’t a tasty pastry.
It was a tasteless pasty.
344

cm's changeable moniker

18 November 2012 at 5:23 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Pssst, Tony? Crackergate.
345

theophontes (坏蛋)

18 November 2012 at 7:24 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Tony

Rhetorical evisceration

Aah, those are not the minions you are reffering to. (That would be trolls or godbots rather.)

The myriad myrmidon minions are just there to agree with the Politburo and cheer the tardigrade speeches en mass. Sadly, they appear to be easily swayed by Owlmirror‘s devious rhetoric. (Though cm’s and Ing have given me an ingenious idea to fix that little problem. In all then, it is not a good time to be a minion.)

Pasty Geebus

I had me mate, Titian, soften him up a little to make it easier to get Him onto the wall.

Regarding the costs of DYI crucifictions: The manager has decided to forgo the fine and refund me for the cost of the beers. They are apparantly going to to get pilgrims to throng around the corpse. A rather clever ploy to get more bums-in-beds during the winter off-season.
346

chigau (無)

18 November 2012 at 7:37 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes
I like the hotel logo, it’s like, totally, retro, like.
And we should steal it.
(I see there is a liquor store just across the street.)
—
There is no crappy art on the walls of your hotel room.
What’s up with that?
347

chigau (無)

18 November 2012 at 7:39 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

(looked at photo again)
Never mind.
348

theophontes (坏蛋)

18 November 2012 at 7:58 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ chigau

They are slowly letting commercial activity into the hotel complex. There are mainly stores for very expensive booze and and others for very expensive gifts. I can only guess why there would be a market for such here. The store for cheap plastic authentic relics of the True Body of Christ has obviously not had time to open yet,

There is a big copy of a Chinese landscape (in South Africa it would have been a Tretchikoff knock-off) hanging over the doily-clad sofas.

…
(Adieu – I must return to Shenzhen.)
349

chigau (無)

18 November 2012 at 8:07 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Because I’m bored, I just put everyone (except me) on the vegan thread in my [hush] file.
That is very strange.
(Now I hafta undo it.)
350

chigau (無)

18 November 2012 at 9:55 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Hello?
Where is everyone?
351

No Light

18 November 2012 at 11:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I’d say there’s a three-way split. One third are drunk, another third in church, and the final third are fighting with honey badgers.

All traditional Sunday night activities.
352

chigau (無)

18 November 2012 at 11:22 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Aren’t the ones fighting with honey badgers also drunk?
353

Tony ∞ºQueer Duck Hivemind Minionº∞

18 November 2012 at 11:28 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Isn’t everyone supposed to be in church eating their crackers today?
354

chigau (無)

18 November 2012 at 11:34 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Unless the honey badgers go too church…
355

chigau (無)

18 November 2012 at 11:39 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

…to church, too…
356

Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine"

18 November 2012 at 11:55 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

(Though cm’s and Ing have given me an ingenious idea to fix that little problem. In all then, it is not a good time to be a minion.)

See the problem with assimilated minions is the ingratitude. You condition and happify and process and shock and shock and when something goes wrong, poof…just won’t even lift a finger to inform someone. Just sit there witht he thumb up their ass (metaphorically speaking, sealing the fissure of the ineffective binary cheek system is one of the first things we correct) all day not being conditioned.
357

Owlmirror

19 November 2012 at 12:01 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Next time txpiper gets all shouty about echolocation, and the millions of mutations necessary for it:

Sven Schörnich, Andreas Nagy and Lutz Wiegrebe. Discovering Your Inner Bat: Echo–Acoustic Target Ranging in Humans.
358

strange gods before me ॐ

19 November 2012 at 8:32 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Click here for cute.

+++++
theophontes,

iff you continue to take it [...] Look at all the petty things YHWH gets really pissed about.

I dunno man. It’s possible? But I don’t see his motivation. Sure, he gets angry about petty stuff, but hypothesizing “Yahweh’s just a shit” isn’t parsimonious with the details of the story. There is some reason he is so worried about the ToKoGaE that he tries to scare them about it specifically, and lies about its real effects. If he only wanted to play head games, he doesn’t have to warn them; after all, he didn’t give warning before punishing Snake.

Maybe, since he’s not omniscient yet in early Genesis, Yahweh simply thought his plan would work. If the humans never eat ToKoGaE fruit, then they do not become elohim-like enough to be concerned (afraid?) about — and thus there is no other behavior they could exhibit which would require punishment. (So, eating ToL fruit without ToKoGaE would not be a problem, if he really expected them never to eat ToKoGaE fruit also.)
359

strange gods before me ॐ

19 November 2012 at 9:15 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Linky: XBBG

You are observant! That is indeed the logo for the Combined Boltzmann Brontosaurus Group Holding Co.

Your couch seems to be sagging a bit, and even if ever so slightly, this is un-Brontian. I’m terribly sorry about that.
360

No Light

19 November 2012 at 1:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

WRT the honey badgers. – they go to church on Sundays and collect what they call “Mysticrackers”.

They crush them with their feet, mix them with rainwater, and let them ferment.

Then they get drunk off their arses and go off to beat the shit out of humans. Badger children occasionally befriend young catholic children, in order to get access to more mysticrackers.

I have all of this on good authority from my local badgers, who are the typical black and white British badgers. They’re in regular communication with their honey-toned American cousins, via the intersett.
361

Tony ∞ºQueer Duck Hivemind Minionº∞

19 November 2012 at 1:35 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

sgbm:

Maybe, since he’s not omniscient yet in early Genesis, Yahweh simply thought his plan would work.

At what point is god supposed to have become omniscient?
362

strange gods before me ॐ

19 November 2012 at 2:14 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I forget. But he starts out as two gods a long time ago. Deities in pantheons generally aren’t all-knowing, although they may have heightened information capabilities. Zeus can still be tricked, for instance. Anyway the very oldest texts strongly imply polytheism (the elohim).

In Genesis 3:9, Yahweh asks the humans where they are hiding. Some people assume this a test of honesty. But it’s possible the deity did not know, and was not expected to.
363

Tony ∞ºQueer Duck Hivemind Minionº∞

19 November 2012 at 2:25 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I knew that Supreme gods in many other mythologies weren’t omniscient (or all powerful for that matter). I recall reading the bible (which I still need to finish) and realizing that god displays a *lack* of omniscience early on (in precisely the part of Genesis you refer to). I think because people treat god as omniscient and omnipotent, my brain usually treats that as retroactive, despite the clear… um “evidence” otherwise.
364

CJO

19 November 2012 at 2:46 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

At what point is god supposed to have become omniscient?

It’s an interesting question. Certain verses in texts like Proverbs, Psalms, Job, and the prophetic texts (esp. Isaiah, Jeremiah) convey a pretty clear sense of “perfect understanding” or “seeing all things” so if you had asked a post-Exile Hebrew if God knows everything I’m sure they would have said yes.

To me, the question highlights the thoroughgoing literary character of the narratives of the Torah. The demands of narrative are paramount, so where the deity is treated as a character in the stories he is of some necessity a limited figure. Interesting stories are formed by playing with the expectations of the reader, but these can never be perfectly fulfilled nor completely confounded. More can happen in a story involving human-like figures, with desires that can be frustrated and tendencies that can be inserted in unexpected situations. Superman without kryptonite is boring and so is an omnicient God.

Short answer*: as an abstract concept, cosmic creator, and object of worship, Yahweh-God was considered omniscient from at least the Babylonian exile. But as a personified figure he was portrayed as a more interesting, narrative-generating, “super-human” actor subject to some of the same temporal and epistemological limits that all characters must come up against for the central conflicts of a narrative to be presented and resolved.

*to the extent I am capable
365

Tony ∞ºQueer Duck Hivemind Minionº∞

19 November 2012 at 3:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

CJO:
Thanks for the intriguing response. It was certainly better than any sophisticated theological answer would have been.
366

Owlmirror

19 November 2012 at 5:26 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I wonder if there might have been an unarticulated distinction between “knows everything” (right now) and “can find out everything”, that even polytheists would have suggested the gods can do. Or perhaps a distinction between “knows everything” (in a general way that can be accessed sequentially) and “is aware of everything (simultaneously)”.

I strongly suspect that even today, most believers are really really bad at thinking about what they claim God can do/know, and what would follow if God could actually do what they claim/know what they claim, and they don’t mind contradicting themselves and “weakening” God if that is what’s necessary for the narrative they are working with. I’m thinking here of the stupid “God is busy helping Our Soldiers in the wars, so He sent me to punch you out, militant atheist professor!” e-mail that believers have no problem sending around, and more examples could probably be found.

I’m also thinking of the recent study I saw televised, that children are more likely to obey arbitrary rules if they’re told that they are being observed by an invisible intangible person (not called “God” in the study). Given the social control aspect of religious belief, any response to the question “Does God know everything?” that is not an unqualified “Yes!” undermines that very social control.

@CJO: Did you read the comments by Paul W and Sastra on this thread? Any thoughts, if so?
367

strange gods before me ॐ

19 November 2012 at 6:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I strongly suspect that even today, most believers are really really bad at thinking about what they claim God can do/know, and what would follow if God could actually do what they claim/know what they claim, and they don’t mind contradicting themselves and “weakening” God if that is what’s necessary for the narrative they are working with.

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~lds/readinggroup/barrett1996.pdf

Given the social control aspect of religious belief, any response to the question “Does God know everything?” that is not an unqualified “Yes!” undermines that very social control.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/03/13/christians-teach-me-to-despise-christianity/comment-page-1/#comment-286181
368

cm's changeable moniker

19 November 2012 at 6:52 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes:

the military hotel I am staying in, which happens to be the biggest in China and was built by the Soviets. In fact it is a whole complex of hotels.

*shivers*

Just don’t put a microphone to the wall, in case you hear something from the past. ;-)

That thing that looks like an ashtray with wires going into the laptop is not an ashtray. That is my accomodation

Needs more moss. Where are the minions when you need them?
369

Ichthyic

19 November 2012 at 7:39 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Just putting this in here as a contrast to the vegan thread…

I will most thoroughly enjoy eating an entire side of Midwest-smoked BBQ ribs for my birthday dinner tonight, at the only place in all of NZ that does american-style BBQ.
370

theophontes (坏蛋)

19 November 2012 at 10:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Meanwhile back in the church of San Domenico, Italy. Linky.

…

Further to Lanzhou:
I discovered, after two nights stay at “Northwest Hotel of Lanzhou Military Zone” that I was the “first weigoren to stay in hotel”. Apparently foreigners are not supposed to stay at the hotel at all. I thought they were joking at first, but it kept coming up. The person who let me stay could potentially be fired for doing so. That would be horrible.

I don’t think anyone realised this was a no-no. There are no signs anywhere saying “no foreigners”. Perhaps it was always taken for granted that people would realise such things are not done? I cannot imagine what harm a “weigoren” could do as, in principle, anyone could walk through the complex.

(I don’t either know what is to happen to Jeebus, given these turns of events. What I did see though, are inumerable caves all around the countryside. One could put up literally tens of thousands of Jeebusses at a time for their three day sojourns. Though boulders might be in short supply, many of the caves have been fitted with doors and could happily serve as chthonic bed-and-breakfasts. One could run specials: “Three nights, one breakfast!”)
371

chigau (無)

19 November 2012 at 10:32 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes
By ‘foreigners’ do they mean non-Asian-looking?
Can they tell a chinese from a japanese from a korean?
372

theophontes (坏蛋)

19 November 2012 at 11:03 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Ing

happify

{theophontes sees shiny new word, looks around surreptitiously, pockets.}

@ SGBM

“Yahweh’s just a shit”

I must confess that this is not an original hypothesis. Millions of others have had like ideas.

he didn’t give warning before punishing Snake.

We don’t know the back story. YHWH could have been playing with (“punishing”) His Snake for ages before getting frustrated. Surely this should have come up earlier?

since he’s not omniscient yet in early Genesis

I’ll bow to CJO on the whole omniscience thing. But consider if you will: If YHWH was not omniscient, perhaps He was not immortal either? He was then hogging the peaches for himself.

XBBG

I have liberated some letterheads. Minitrue should have a logo ready for you in the near future.

@ cm’s

past

or present?

@ Ichthyic

Congeries of conga rat elations.
373

theophontes (坏蛋)

19 November 2012 at 11:21 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ chigau

By ‘foreigners’ do they mean non-Asian-looking?

“Different looking”. The problem only got noticed, I guess, because I do not look Chinese at all (could I pass as a Chinese Slav (and there are such)?). The real point though is that you must show your passport (which I did not have) at the front desk. There they would notice eBil¹ Japanese passports.

¹ Poster on wall in town: “FUCKING JAPANESE!!!”. The problem could also simply be blind bigotry.

[liquor store]

In the hotel lobby there was a bottle of baijiu 3.688L (the number is not insignificant) for RMB168,000. (about $27,000.00) Yeah, disgusting.
374

chigau (無)

20 November 2012 at 12:33 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes
In a Japanese language class at my nearby university in ca.1990, some of the people of Japanese, Chinese and Korean ancestry in the room assured the rest of us that they could tell the difference.
—-
At about the same time I heard that a FOAF needed to explain to a Chinese student that all those people he thought were Mongolians were actually First Nations people (North American Indians).
++++
The 75th anniversary of Nanking is in a few days.
375

theophontes (坏蛋)

20 November 2012 at 1:03 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ chigau

Mongolians | First Nations

Land/ice bridges. (google if you want to disapear down the rabbit hole) They aparently ARE related.

I can generally tell Japanese/Chinese apart, not that I ever need to or particularly care. I think there are perhaps more variations of characteristics between Chinese than between, say, Europeans (the ultimate mongrels). I would take the suggestion that one can consistantly tell the difference with a very large grain of salt.

The 75th anniversary of Nanking is in a few days.

Oy vey! Both parties really need to sit down and sort this out. The tv (and films) are saturated with the tropes of an ammended historical account of WW2. You can switch on any telly at any time and find the drama playing out again and again.
376

chigau (無)

20 November 2012 at 1:29 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes
landbridge
yeah
I’m a archaeologist, I’ve heard that song.
(in ALL its variations, including the Atlantic crossing)
——
Nanking
377

theophontes (坏蛋)

20 November 2012 at 2:52 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ chigau

archaeologist

Aah, you have already been down the rabbit hole.

Nanking

This is a big one. I can only give some impressions that count for nothing. At the end of the day it may come down to psychology. The ball is also very much in the Japanese court.

There are some examples of this kind of situation in the past. Essentially, what can be done to ameliorate the situation in which one nation has committed a huge, and seemingly unforgiveable, attrocity against another?

Three key things, IMO (which the Japanese government has not ever put on the table,AFAIK):
1. Make an apology.
2. Transfer land to the agrieved party.
3. Make a large and permanent cultural gesture/s.

eg1: Germany could serve as a role-model here (although they didn’t give up land willingly, there was the element of “punishment” in the lands occupied by the Allies.)

eg2: When South Africa gave back its former colony of South West Africa (now Namibia) to to its inhabitants, it gave – in addition – parts of its own territory (Walvis Bay and portions of the Orange River).

Suggestions in order:

1. Make an apology (and for FSM-sake stop visiting the fucking Yasukuni shrine.)
2. Rather than haggle about a few islands (ie: Senkaku/Diaoyu), Japan should claim them as their own¹ and then transfer them willingly to China, lock stock and barrel.
3. Build a couple of monuments, teach the truth, rededicate that stupid shrine…

Doubling down on bullshit is not helping, it is perhaps time for the Japanese government to come clean. And goodwill is worth more than oil and a few fish.

/tardigrade_eye_view

¹ This is very important, as it provides the mechanism by which the proposal becomes feasible. It prevents loss of face.
378

theophontes (坏蛋)

20 November 2012 at 3:03 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

The fucking macho fucking military-minded fucking patriarchy will be with us at least ’til fucking 2025: Mercedes Ener-G-Force concept imagines the SUV of 2025

Its like a fucking disease.
379

John Morales

20 November 2012 at 4:31 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes, meh.

It’s traditional; see for example Tales of Future Past – Future Car
380

theophontes (坏蛋)

20 November 2012 at 6:23 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ John Morales

Teh gubmint in these parts does not approve your linky. (I have however managed to find a hovercar that refers to David Szondy, with a less of a macho tilt than Mercedes Benz. Linky.)

meh

In terms of design, very much “meh”. Their only addition to what we have now – their visionary projection for 2025: A world in which teh MenZ are reflected even more than they are now, in the future artifacts that we create. Hoggling, according to Mercedes, will become ever more the guiding light of their designers’ lebensanschauung. (The market for that brainfart is what? The police? I call bullshit.)
381

strange gods before me ॐ

20 November 2012 at 9:13 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

We don’t know the back story. YHWH could have been playing with (“punishing”) His Snake for ages before getting frustrated.

Right, we can’t really know. Here’s a question I find interesting: how does Snake know that the ToKoGaE fruit will not kill the humans, but will instead make them elohim-like?

(Has Snake eaten it? Been watching others eat it? Has Yahweh been chatting with all the animals? Maybe just Snake? When Yahweh asked “who told you that you were naked” was he thinking “I’ll bet it was Snake”?)

But without any other evidence, I would take the story as it appears: Yahweh punishes Snake out of the blue, without warning.

But consider if you will: If YHWH was not omniscient, perhaps He was not immortal either? He was then hogging the peaches for himself.

He might not have been immortal (indeed still might not), but I doubt he needs to hog them for the sake of his own immortality. Evidently, he only needs to eat one himself. I imagine the purpose of keeping the ToL fruit away from the humans after they become elohim-like is to keep them from challenging the elohim.
382

chigau (無)

20 November 2012 at 10:22 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Gosh.
The written history of the Nanking Massacre is rather murky.
Whoda thunk?
383

strange gods before me ॐ

20 November 2012 at 11:54 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I should probably shut up after 478 but:

So I’m guessing we can’t agree on this.

To not join, I must not indicate what I would say if I were to join.

Examples? The very same comment part of which you quoted

I don’t see.

and then again here

In this case there is little enough that I can guess you are not referring to this:

Note: Lazy, stupid, and evil are your words not mine. If you think that you are these things, I’m sorry, but I certainly don’t think you are.

That leaves this:

Surely it will be a healthy diet if I just boil 2 kg of Spinach which will then have about 700 calories for dinner. Virtually no preparation. Same as potatoes: I really don’t have to peel and cook them, that takes absolutely no time!

If you think that that’s all that constitutes veg*n food, and additionally think that there are no veg*n quick or convenience foods, maybe you do need to learn a bit about cooking.

The “just boil 2 kg of Spinach” bit was summary. Not a fair summary, so there’s no easy way to respond to it. But it’s strange too. Taken seriously, it did seem to be indicating a notion of what constitutes vegetarian food. That would be exasperating to try to respond to, but if those words should instead not be taken seriously, then it’s not obvious what else should be inferred.

But, before you get to brainstorming about what you would have said instead, remember that you’ve just been told “thank you for making my point by exactly sprouting that fucking stupid shit I just mentioned”, “fucking stupid bullshit”, and “yeah, you’ve just been arrogantly bullshitting”.

I don’t know if words usually called condescending ought to be considered such in response, but whatever.

Don’t you think it’s odd that people who aren’t trying to get it made illegal for you to eat animals are getting allowed fewer faux pas than others, and such quick fuckthoury?

Why not an “alright Captain Obvious” if that’s supposed to be the problem.
384

chigau (無)

20 November 2012 at 12:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Couldn’t you have just left this discussion over there?
385

strange gods before me ॐ

20 November 2012 at 12:48 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I had a reason not to. I don’t know if it was a good one.
386

theophontes (坏蛋)

20 November 2012 at 1:02 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ SGBM

how does Snake know that the ToKoGaE fruit will not kill the humans

We must not forget that Snake goes much further back than Genesis. Snakes are prescient. It is not just in knowledge that they excel, but also in knowledge of the future. This is the kind of thing they would just know.

“How?”, you ask. Well, here we get back to skyhooks I am afraid. (I have my pet theory, but it is not as given in the Genesis narrative. It need not be “magic”.)

Yahweh punishes Snake out of the blue, without warning.

If true, this would clearly falsify my theory. (Again, within the Genesis fairytale, but not necessarily generally. Snake features in many tales.)

Evidently, he only needs to eat one himself.

I clicked the linky, expecting a perfect godlike website, moderated by the great sages of our age, dedicated to upholding this theory. But it just linked to upthread. I can point you to the FACT that Real Gods ™ do in fact eat Godly Foods ™ (ambrosia, washed down with golden cups of nectar) on a continuous and ongoing basis.

@ chigau

murky

murky ?
387

chigau (無)

20 November 2012 at 1:03 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I’m just whinging.
The conversation is hard enough to follow without having it on two threads.
388

chigau (無)

20 November 2012 at 1:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes
re: Nanking
Mostly the body-counts.
They seem to range from negative numbers to over 400,000.
I agree that the Japanese government needs to make the next move.
389

Mr. Fire

20 November 2012 at 2:22 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

YHWH could have been playing with (“punishing”) His Snake for ages before getting frustrated.

So apparently Yaweh’s not just a shit, but impotent too.

And the chaser:

Surely this should have come up earlier?

Perhaps that’s what people really mean when they say God is actually Neo:

“Why oh why didn’t I take the (little) blue pill?”
390

Beatrice

20 November 2012 at 2:58 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

strange gods,

*sigh*
I was attempting to somewhat clarify why Giliell got upset and how some of Nepenthe’s comments seemed a bit unfair to me. Since one of my points was that Giliell’s attempts to explain (which at some point became exaggerated) how taking care of her family’s meals, combined with her other responsibilities, was making it difficult for her to change her diet were being dismissed too carelessly, I tried to see what your position on that was. You obviously didn’t read the same thing I did from Nepenthe’s comments.

If you are only discussing the discussion, without actually wanting to give an opinion on the topic, I really don’t know what we’re supposed to discuss any more. Nepenthe clarified that what Giliell and I (and some others -Holms?) read as condescension was written in honest belief that an average omnivore can’t easily think of a meatless meal. To me personally that’s unbelievable, so I’ll just assign it to cultural differences, I guess.

I do feel bad about some of the things I wrote, like that mini rant directed at Winterwind.

—-
When you relocate a discussion to Thunderdome, could you please give a link on the original thread? I don’t know about others, but I don’t check Thunderdome regularly.
391

Rutee Katreya

20 November 2012 at 3:34 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I’m slightly worried that very little of the Liberal Agenda as presented in Liberal Crime Squad is too far for me. Only their version of Free Speech (Which seems to be the ZOMG EVERYTHING IS FINE PERIOD version) and animal rights (Which is that animals are legally people) seems too far to me.
392

strange gods before me ॐ

20 November 2012 at 8:51 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Beatrice,

Definitely there are cultural differences. People, like, all the time, it’s one of the most common things I hear about it, ask “what do you eat?”

Well, you know how people would react or not react if someone said “you shouldn’t buy these brands of clothing because they have awful working conditions. Some would ignore the information, some roll their eyes. But it’s unlikely that there’s going to be a confrontation simply because someone says “it’s hard” and someone else responds here’s how to do it. Even if people think they are being gauche.

Especially in a related thread. We would not expect “don’t you dare tell me which brands are less bad.” Certainly not on a non-sport blog.

The degree of disparity in reaction is not reasonable. Side-effect of absorbing the hippie-punching ethos, maybe, but lots of people go cruel quite readily on this topic.
393

strange gods before me ॐ

20 November 2012 at 9:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes,

We must not forget that Snake goes much further back than Genesis. Snakes are prescient.

Gonna need Canaanite or similar sources to allow this into evidence.

I have my pet theory

On with it! It had better be thicker in the middle.

ambrosia, washed down with golden cups of nectar

Lack of mention would suggest he’s not a big fan. (Different pantheons’ gods have different needs. Yahweh does burnt offerings though.)
394

chigau (無)

20 November 2012 at 11:48 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

ॐ

On with it! It had better be thicker in the middle.

Like this?
google image search
395

Owlmirror

20 November 2012 at 11:59 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Huh.

503 Server Error

Guru meditation [BIGNUM]

Varnish cache server.
396

theophontes (坏蛋)

21 November 2012 at 12:16 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ SGBM

Gonna need Canaanite or similar sources to allow this into evidence.

Ooooh, Canaanite now?

{theophontes puts up “dukes”}

Are you, oh Double-pape ™ going to deny that the Mediteranean, in terms of swapping out religious ideas, was anything but one great big clusterfuck? Or that Zeus was not Norse? But OK. I’ll play along with your little game…

On with it! It had better be thicker in the middle.

*cough*
My theory:
*cough*
… by theophontes.

{cue sound of a bridge}

That is “theophontes” not “theopontes”!

Since forever, people have noticed that animals behave in perculiar ways prior to major natural events. These can be prior to spectacular events like the earthquake that clobbered Helice, in Greece in 373 BC (linky). Or the deadly tsunami of more recent times. (linky)

In the short term you might observe the flight of the swallows, catching insects before an impending storm. But more interestingly Snake heading for the high ground to avoid rainstorms – when there is not a cloud in the sky. For priests of the sky-gods, this is a good trick to keep up one’s sleeve.

But why Snake and not, for example, mice? Well, there were many mouse observing priests too. Think Apollo Smintheus. Or consider also Thales of Miletus, who observing the behaviour of mice, deduced that there would be a bumper harvest ahead. He bought up every option on every wine-press he could lay his hands on and became very rich very quickly. There are contenders, but in each case above, who has been out there leading the pack? Snake of course!
397

chigau (無)

21 November 2012 at 12:17 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Owlmirror #395
yeah.
but it recovered.
398

theophontes (坏蛋)

21 November 2012 at 12:43 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Curses! I cannot see my cursor in the comment window.

…

Lack of mention would suggest he’s not a big fan.

If YHWH was into apple pie and perry, it does not detract from the idea that gods enjoy their nosh as much as the rest of us. Perhaps YHWH is just a greedy little kid who doesn’t want to share. (Even your heretical “nephelim” theory would back this up. Only that it is power, not peaches that drives his greed.)

Yahweh does burnt offerings though.

There is nothing particular in this. But I would point out that the Gods of Olympus and our very own Boltzmann Brontasaurus consume entire hecatombs at a time. YHWH must be a very small god to eat a mere heffer per burnt offering.

@ chigau

Like this?

Like this.
399

Owlmirror

21 November 2012 at 1:03 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I recently watched a show on animal intelligence (Nova ScienceNow) which stated that the Earth is constantly generating infrasound from the mass of the ocean hitting the crust, and that different locales have a different infrasound background signature (and that pigeons use the infrasound signature to find home).

Thoughts: What does an earthquake do to the infrasound background, and when (that is, in relation to the more obvious major waves) does it do it?

Are all animals that panic before earthquakes sensitive to infrasound? Elephants are known to be, and I think snakes are as well.

Are great apes in general sensitive to infrasound, and if so, why did humans lose it?
400

theophontes (坏蛋)

21 November 2012 at 2:12 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Owlmirror

I can’t respond to the infrasound questions (do we have a resident seismologist lurking?). Obviously the earths crust is in a constant process of upheaval and this must be accompanied with vast releases of energy, which may transmit as sound waves as you describe.

What is interesting is that the Chinese were quite confident they could predict earthquakes by the early 70′s. They used a combination of geophysical instrumentation as well as observations of animal behaviour. This all went swimmingly until 1976, when the Tangshan earthquake struck causing huge loss of life (and changing the course of political history too. It showed up Mao for what he really was – a lousy leader when it came to real problems).

The instruments failed to predict due to their readings being disparate. On the other hand the animals of Tangshan were bang on target and put up a real show. But went unheaded. Interestingly, there were all manner of signs in the wells and in the skies. Bubbling gas and fireballs (Tangshan is a major coal mining area), rumbling sounds and strange atmospheric effects.

Surely an old-school oracle would have saved the day.
401

theophontes (坏蛋)

21 November 2012 at 2:50 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Stop Press: The Use Of Animals In Earthquake Prediction

[Snake]

The Chinese began to study systematically the unusual animal behavior, and the Haicheng earthquake of February 1975 was predicted successfully as early as in mid-December of 1974. The most unusual circumstance of animal behavior was that of snakes that came out of hibernation and froze on the surface of the earth.

[pigeons]

The principal focus of research work in China has been on the behavior of pigeons. Biological studies on pigeons determined that a hundred tiny units exist between the tibia and fibula on a pigeon’s leg. These nerve units are connected to the nerve center, and are very sensitive to vibrations. Scientists determined that prior to an earthquake of magnitude 4.0, which occurred in the area of the study, fifty pigeons that had severed connections between the tibia, fibula, and the nerve centers, remained calm before the earthquake, while those with normal connections became startled and flew away.
402

Beatrice

21 November 2012 at 2:52 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

strange gods,

I don’t know if you expected me to deny it, but yeah, all you wrote is true.

There were overreactions in the thread. I decided to stick with explaining Giliell’s because I felt I understood why she was getting upset.

Conversations about veganism/vegetarianism do get people more riled up than, as for your example, talk of sweatshops. But I believe that both sides go into that kind of conversation differently. I wouldn’t find it unreasonable if a poor person got upset into incoherence after being asked to justify themselves for not buying from brands that don’t exploit workers. But they usually don’t get asked that, do they? Expectations about food choices are higher.

Unless one has a hired cook, there is also a shitton of everyday worries about cooking, depending on individual situations. People get more upset about food, than about other things, but then again, it’s also something pretty important to most of us. Whether you have to worry about eating noodles seven days in a row, feeding your family noodles seven days in a row or taking into consideration different kinds of health problems of your family members when you buy food/cook, there’s some thought and effort you have to put into this every single day. For some people, this requires quite a lot thought and effort. Again, it depends on individual situations, but putting more on top of maybe many things someone has to consider every day, it can get one’s hackles up.

I’m not denying that things can get very unreasonable, very fast, in these discussions, but I think some reasons behind it are valid.
403

theophontes (坏蛋)

21 November 2012 at 5:05 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

At atheist conferences we have special guest speakers, perhaps Richard Dawkins or Professor Poopiehead makes an appearance. A comedian or singer might take to the stage to liven things up.

The goddists in Pakistan have gone one further. They issue special fatwas to get the crowds thronging: Shariah4Pakistan Conference

I shall attempt to translate the program:

Teh Pogram:

1. The problem with the fucking kaffirs.
2. Declaration of fatwa against the child victim of a shooting. (There will be a intermission of 10 minutes to allow attendees to compulsively masturbate.)
3. Vindictive character assassination of the founder of our nation.
4. Two Minutes Hate ™
5. How to shit on your own carpet: 101.
404

chigau (無)

21 November 2012 at 9:56 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Why is the poster in English?
405

strange gods before me ॐ

21 November 2012 at 10:07 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I don’t know if you expected me to deny it

I didn’t have any particular expectation.

There were overreactions in the thread. I decided to stick with explaining Giliell’s because I felt I understood why she was getting upset.

Okay. It wasn’t clear earlier that you considered it to be an overreaction.

Initially I was responding to you in part because that wasn’t clear, and because it felt unfair to me that you were telling just one person that they were being shitty and condescending after they’d been targeted with “thank you for making my point by exactly sprouting that fucking stupid shit I just mentioned”, “fucking stupid bullshit”, “yeah, you’ve just been arrogantly bullshitting”, the false claims that they were “be[ing] an asshole to everybody” and “thinking you could just tell us we’re lazy and stupid” then “fuck you for being a privileged arrogant asshole on this” — and then you joined in the distortions, suggesting that anyone had called you evil, like these uncharitable distortions are totally just a game to play at others’ expense — then more falsehoods, “Right, I put words to the things you expressed otherwise”, “You’re either really stupid or just dishonest”, “you’Re constantly using comparisons and then get all upset when people object to being compared to the KKK”, “My problem are assholes like you who think they know more about me and my life than I do”, and so on.

I wouldn’t find it unreasonable if a poor person got upset into incoherence after being asked to justify themselves for not buying from brands that don’t exploit workers. But they usually don’t get asked that, do they?

I would ask you to try to find the comment in that thread where someone is asked to justify themselves. In case you don’t want to, I’ll get to my point right now: it’s very late in the thread and cannot account for the first 80% of comments.

What usually happens — and what happened in this case — is that some meat eaters treat the very presence of vegetarians who are talking about why it’s wrong to eat meat as synonymous with those vegetarians asking meat eaters to justify themselves. So all talk about ethics is falsely construed as an interpersonal demand, often with an explicit assertion that “you think you’re better than me” or “you think I’m evil”, and then the vegetarians are attacked viciously for making a demand that they didn’t make.

But those are non sequiturs. If someone says “you should’t buy Nikes”, then that’s what they’re saying: you shouldn’t buy Nikes. This is not synonymous with saying “justify to me your purchase of Nikes”. The difference is important. If some activist wants you to know that you shouldn’t buy Nikes and why not, then they are trying to convey information to you. And if they’re doing so with a public audience besides the two of you, then they are almost certainly trying to convey information to the others as well. There has to be room allowed for this. It is not reasonable to demand that everyone stop saying “X is bad, we should not do X”. Yet, falsely equating “you’re saying X is bad” to “you’re demanding that I justify X” is used as a means of demanding that people stop saying “X is bad”.

(It actually is okay to ask people to justify their actions which affect others’ interests. But that’s a tangent; my point here is that many, evidently most, pro-veg speakers are not trying to have that sort of discussion. This can and should be recognized by everyone: whatever your opinion about whether other people are allowed to ask you to justify your actions, people who are not doing that should not be responded to as if they are. It’s simply not accurate, and thus it isn’t fair.)

Also the equation of “X is bad” to “people who do X are evil” should stop. You know that when you’re telling someone “you shouldn’t do that”, like, for instance, “that’s condescending so you shouldn’t say that”, you’re not saying “you’re evil” nor do you believe they’re evil. And if someone says “you should’t buy Nikes” you don’t assume that they believe and are really trying to express the absurd conclusion that “people who buy Nikes are evil”. This same basic charity should apply to discussions about animals’ lives. We can treat people with the minimal decency of expecting that they mean what they actually say, and that they aren’t secretly jumping to absurdly unjustifiable conclusions.

If we treat every ethical critique as if it really means “you are a fundamentally evil person” then we can’t ever discuss ethics.

Again, it depends on individual situations, but putting more on top of maybe many things someone has to consider every day, it can get one’s hackles up.

Instead of assuming that someone was actually “putting more on top of maybe many things someone has to consider every day”, again I would ask you to try to find a comment in that thread where anyone did this.

What in fact happened was people offered their own reasoning up in a public discussion. Some people are going to discuss some of that reasoning, including critiquing it. This is to be expected. Nobody was being imposed upon. Everyone who participated in that discussion sought it out. They chose to read the OP, they chose to read the comments, they chose to add their own. Heck, if someone wants to add their dubious arguments to a thread and then not experience any critique, there’s even a way to do exactly that: it’s called a driveby comment.

There has to be room for people to say things like “X is bad” and “Y is better”. If someone else can’t deal with that right now, okay, but that doesn’t justify insisting that the other people should stop talking about it — certainly not when there’s also the easy option of really just not dealing with it, i.e. ignoring those people instead of voluntarily joining the discussion.
406

theophontes (坏蛋)

21 November 2012 at 10:18 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ SGBM

Wabbing, I see.

(Your arguments have been utterly destroyed. Mwahahaha…)
407

theophontes (坏蛋)

21 November 2012 at 10:24 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ chigau

Pakistan was a British colony? It acts as lingua franca, in a country with hundreds of dialects? One of the main speakers is from the UK? It is a show, put on for the media to puff out their inflated egos to a wider audience?

I find it beyond fucking disgusting that they want to put a fatwa on Malala as a publicity fucking stunt. What is wrong with these people?
408

strange gods before me ॐ

21 November 2012 at 10:42 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes,

You want more?

Are you, oh Double-pape going to deny that the Mediteranean, in terms of swapping out religious ideas, was anything but one great big clusterfuck?

Yes. It must be something other than a simple undifferentiated clusterfuck if I can say “Canaanite or similar sources please” and you understand why I’m asking for these specifically.

If you want to introduce other Snake stories into consideration for understanding Genesis, then I want to see persuasive reasoning for doing so. (And I’m indicating ahead of time that the relevance of Canaanite sources is already persuasively reasoned for, and thus others might be argued for by demonstrating a relation to Canaan.)

I could declare, by papal bull, that Snake might have weather and natural disaster prediction abilities. It would have no implication for Snake’s knowledge of the effects of ToKoGaE fruit. (And if Snake is generally prescient, why doesn’t he do something to avoid being cursed by Yahweh?)

If YHWH was into apple pie and perry, it does not detract from the idea that gods enjoy their nosh as much as the rest of us. Perhaps YHWH is just a greedy little kid who doesn’t want to share.

Perhaps a lot of things, but such reasoning proceeds by ignoring what the text indicates is important to the story — in this case Yahweh Elohim’s specific preventive measures against, and lament about, the humans becoming “elohim-like”.

Even your heretical “nephelim” theory

See: Rutee and Owlmirror. I haven’t said anything about nephilim.
409

theophontes (坏蛋)

21 November 2012 at 10:46 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Tom Gilson, who is a liar for jeebus and has run into our Ebil Oberlawd on more than one occasion, has joined the recent asshattery of the American far-right: Preparing for Persecution

What is interesting about this person is that he endevours to bring a “scientific/rational” slant to his pressupositions. He spews the same lies as others in his creepy death-cult, but then qualifies them with riders. Peruse the comments on the graph that was sucked out of someone’s thumb.

(If you are thinking of leaving a comment, bear in mind that Tom Gilson is a hypocritical fuck and will only entertain ideas that are congruent with his own crackpot religious views.)
410

chigau (無)

21 November 2012 at 10:47 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Did the snake have feet before being cursed?
If you are already ‘crawling on your belly’ being cursed to ‘crawl on your belly’ is not much of a curse.
411

strange gods before me ॐ

21 November 2012 at 10:52 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Well, it’s implied to be a change. Anyway there are two more components to the curse: Snake will eat dust, and be despised and attacked by humans.
412

Beatrice

21 November 2012 at 11:06 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

strange gods,

It’s not fair, really. You can’t just go and write a completely reasonable comment that I can’t really disagree with.

Ok, I can disagree a bit. Or rather, repeat my attempt at an explanation.

Instead of assuming that someone was actually “putting more on top of maybe many things someone has to consider every day”, again I would ask you to try to find a comment in that thread where anyone did this.

I already mentioned how I thought Nepenthe was being condescending. That wasn’t her intention, but that’s how both Giliell and I read it*. It sort of went downhill from there (if we ignore parts with mouse at the beginning and some short skirmishes).

In the comment before this one, I tried to explain why some omnivores may have reacted as they have. Condescension or making someone feel like they should justify themselves may not have been anyone’s intent (until SC’s comment), but again, I tried to explain why people may be more inclined to read innocent comments that way in this context, while behaving more reasonably in any other.

I’m aware that I also went overboard at some points. It’s pretty ironic given that I started off with a “we should all try to get along” comment.

*Nepenthe apparently didn’t believe either Giliell or me when we said that we know how to cook cook things apart from meat, so assumptions all around
413

theophontes (坏蛋)

21 November 2012 at 11:28 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ SGMB

I want to see persuasive reasoning for doing so

I have indicated that there is a very Real Life ™ reason why any society can develop a profound understanding of snakes as being prescient. (examples have been provided from divergent times and cultures around the world, these can be multiplied many times over). This abrogates the need for making a specifically Canaanite link. They could generate this understanding ex nihil in little time. Being taken for granted by everyone that works the land (both in terms of practical usefulness and intrusion into general folk-superstitions) this is not reflected in the bible, simply because it was taken as commonplace fact at that time.

In terms of the “religious clusterfuck” idea: This does have its detractors (for the example of Heracles and the Snake/s) in the case of the Greeks. We know that they travelled extensively to the Levant (which contains Canaan) and that there would be a real measure of interchange of ideas. In fact this is brought up clearly by Robin Lane Fox (Travelling Heroes: Greeks and their myths in the epic age of Homer): The Greeks travelled widely for a time and came into contact with the Levant. They went through a long period of stagnation and then later went back to discover the incredible correlations there with their own myths. They took this in some measure as a vindication of their religious ideas, but in essence they had only rediscovered what they had set in motion in an earlier age (either/both as teachers and/or learners… this last is not completely clear)

It would have no implication for Snake’s knowledge of the effects of ToKoGaE fruit. (And if Snake is generally prescient, why doesn’t he do something to avoid being cursed by Yahweh?)

I can see that this would be a problem if Snake was required to be ALL knowing instead of merely knowledgeable. There could be gaps (as there literally are in RL) as to what Snake is capable of being aware of. Also notice that Snake is a master of hiding out. Snake might very well have perused YHWH guzzling fruit and put two and two together. If such details were explicitly covered in Genesis, it would be the size of the babble itself.

I haven’t said anything about nephilim.

{thinks: “rats, curses … and other expressions of extreme frustration, why oh why did I have to fluff that one up”}

Elohimish not Nephalimish…

{tries to hide blushing, slinks off}
414

theophontes (坏蛋)

21 November 2012 at 11:44 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

This is the view from my window. It is dark. It is late. Time to Zzzzzz…
415

ChasCPeterson

21 November 2012 at 12:11 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Snake was already legless, but previously crawled on its back. This helped keep its mouth out of the dust.
416

strange gods before me ॐ

21 November 2012 at 1:27 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I imagine we’re agreed that to explain is not to excuse.

If a pro-veg person is approached by someone inviting affirmation for meat eating, they can ignore, disagree with parts, and/or say it’ll get easier in the future. Sometimes the safest thing is to ignore, but even that may be considered rude since they’ve been approached.

Can we agree it’s not very sensible to approach a pro-veg person who did not approach [generic you], and ask them to say something approving about eating meat? (Can moreover be perturbing?)
417

Beatrice

21 November 2012 at 1:54 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

strange gods,

Aren’t you simplifying this a bit? There were a couple of parallel discussions going on, with people discussing pro-vegan points and others the opposite. You can’t turn that into “an omnivore asked a pro-vegan person to say something approving about former’s meat eating” as if it came out of the blue, completely out of context.
418

Beatrice

21 November 2012 at 2:08 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I’m not going to analyze every comment on that thread, so I will only repeat that I have overreacted.

But don’t you exaggerate the “abused vegans” part either.
419

Beatrice

21 November 2012 at 2:25 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

“abused ~~vegans~~ pro-vegans”
420

jonmilne

21 November 2012 at 3:03 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

There’s a very insightful chat between Ricky Gervais and Richard Dawkins that appears on YouTube. Parts of this debate got used in a recent documentary Dawkins has filmed, but this is the full interview. If you have 15 odd minutes to spare, by all means check it out :) :
421

strange gods before me ॐ

21 November 2012 at 7:06 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

But don’t you exaggerate the “abused vegans” part either.

That’s profoundly unhelpful. Please, either substantiate your claim that I’m exaggerating something — quotes would be nice — or don’t make empty assertions like that.

I’ll be specific. I’m not calling anything “abuse” here, so I’d appreciate if you don’t put that word in my mouth. And my #416 says nothing about any overreaction anyway; it’s about whether it’s “sensible to approach a pro-veg person who did not approach [generic you], and ask them to say something approving about eating meat”. That’s what it’s about: what’s sensible to expect of another person; not even what’s fair, not anybody’s overreaction, and certainly nothing about “abuse.”

But, regarding the degree of unfair behavior, since you are suddenly (weirdly) suggesting I’m exaggerating something, let’s be perfectly clear.

All this: one person being «targeted with “thank you for making my point by exactly sprouting that fucking stupid shit I just mentioned”, “fucking stupid bullshit”, “yeah, you’ve just been arrogantly bullshitting”, the false claims that they were “be[ing] an asshole to everybody” and “thinking you could just tell us we’re lazy and stupid” then “fuck you for being a privileged arrogant asshole on this” — and then you joined in the distortions, suggesting that anyone had called you evil, like these uncharitable distortions are totally just a game to play at others’ expense — then more falsehoods, “Right, I put words to the things you expressed otherwise”, “You’re either really stupid or just dishonest”, “you’Re constantly using comparisons and then get all upset when people object to being compared to the KKK”, “My problem are assholes like you who think they know more about me and my life than I do”, and so on.»

That was unreasonable, inaccurate, and unfair — and those are actual quotes; I can’t exaggerate them — and there was no equivalent from the other side. There’s my case, succinctly. If you want to try to make the case that someone on the other side was treated as unfairly, you are welcome to show some evidence.
422

cm's changeable moniker

21 November 2012 at 7:20 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes: “This is the view from my window. It is dark.”

No, it’s not. That’s what’s keeping you awake. ;-)
423

cm's changeable moniker

21 November 2012 at 7:35 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Oh, and somewhat related, I recently had an email correspondence with someone from Hangzhou. To my discredit, I didn’t even know Hangzhou was a place, let alone a place with a UNESCO heritage site.

Globalisation is confusing. I need an atlas. And a drink.
424

SC (Salty Current), OM

21 November 2012 at 8:17 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

I’m probably not helping, but…

Both Giliell and hotshoe said in that thread that they disagree with [whatever the hell they in their ignorance understand to be] the arguments for veganism. So they have no desire to become vegans, and the practical question of becoming vegan is pretty much irrelevant.

Now, I’ll argue with people who put forth arguments against the ethical case for veganism. But what is the point of arguing with someone who fundamentally disagrees with [their understanding of] that case but wants to dwell on alleged practical difficulties? Especially when they can keep noting (or inventing) conditions at will, and no one can make the contrary case for their specific situation?

In what world is that valid? Should I spend my time arguing about the difficulties of finding designated drivers and drinking in locations without adequate public transportation with people who don’t agree with arguments against driving drunk, with the principle that we collectively should avoid it and find solutions that collectively avoid it? Or should I address the people who share my values but are looking for practical solutions? I think the latter.
425

theophontes (坏蛋)

21 November 2012 at 10:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ cm’s

That is a veritable blackout by Shenzhen standards.

Hangzhou

{with mock disdain}That little hick town. (Don’t worry, most people likely don’t know Shenzhen exists.)

@ Chas

Oops, I forgot to mention that turtles and totoises are prescient also.
426

chigau (無)

21 November 2012 at 10:55 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

totoises
Are we in Kansas?
427

strange gods before me ॐ

21 November 2012 at 11:00 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Rereading 421 “it looks like fighting” but I don’t want that. Meh. I said I should shut up.
428

theophontes (坏蛋)

22 November 2012 at 12:44 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ chigau

{theophontes, in tone of great munificence}
Here, have an “r”. Oh to hell with it, let’s go large: Have an “R“!

(I am sure that toRtoises in Kansas are also “prescient”.)
429

John Morales

22 November 2012 at 12:49 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes, they ain’t prescient; they are reactive.
430

Owlmirror

22 November 2012 at 1:33 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

So, I hit Google Scholar for [snake cult Levant], and trudged through the hits.

Alas, it looks like many of the refs are simply not online.

Still:

To be sure, snake figurines and other items with snake motifs have been found at Tel Kinrot (Faßbeck et al. 2003, 50- 51 with Abb. 83a-b), Hazor (Yadin 1960, pls CCCIX, 8 and CCLXXVIII, 20; cf. the bowl onto the body of which a clay-sculptured snake was applied; see Yadin et al. 1961, pl. CXCVI, 13 and Yadin et al. 1989, 223; Keel 1992, 234, Abb. 186), and many other sites (see the inventory of the Syro-Palestinian snake iconography in Keel 1992, 195-266; see also Buchholz 2008), demonstrating that the snake was a prominent religious symbol even in the Early Iron Age in the Southern Levant as in the Near East in general [24].
_______________________________________________
24 The evidence is compiled by Koh 1994; according to his inventory, the number of sites with snake objects decreases dramatically from the Late Bronze Age to the Iron Age. Generally on the topic, cf. Buchholz 2000. For a more distant Iron Age example from the Gulf area (ancient Oman), see Benoist 2007.

Refs :

Buchholz, H.-G. 2000. Furcht vor Schlangen und Umgang mit Schlangen in Altsyrien, Altkypros und dem Umfeld. Ugarit-Forschungen 32, 39-169

Buchholz, H.-G. 2008. Bemerkungen zur ostmediterran-vorderasiatischen Schlangen-Ikonographie. In S. Bar (ed.), In the Hill-Country, and in the Shephelah, and in the Arabah (Joshua 12,8): Studies and Researches presented to Adam Zertal in the Thirtieth Anniversary of the Manasseh Hill-Country Survey, 56*-69*. Jerusalem:

Faßbeck, G., Münger, S. and Röhl, S. 2002. Gotteshaus und Hausgott – Ausgewählte Hinweise auf möglichen Hauskult im antiken Kinneret. In G. Faßbeck, S. Fortner, A. Rottlof and J. Zangenberg (eds), Leben am See Gennesaret. Kulturgeschichtliche Entdeckungen in einer biblischen Region, 47-51, 207. Mainz: Philipp von Zabern Verlag

Keel, O. 1992. Das Recht der Bilder, gesehen zu werden. Drei Fallstudien zur Methode der Interpretation altorientalischer Bilder. Orbis biblicus et orientalis 122. Fribourg and Göttingen: Universitätsverlag Fribourg and Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht

Koh, S. 1994. An Archaeological Investigation of the Snake Cult in the Southern Levant: From the Chalcolitic Period through the Iron Age. Unpublished PhD thesis submitted to the University of Chicago

Yadin, Y. 1975. Hazor. The Rediscovery of the Great Citadel of the Bible. London: Weidenfeld and Nicholson

Yadin, Y., Aharoni, Y., Amiran, R., Dothan, T., Dunayevsky, I. and Perrot, J. 1960. Hazor II. An Account of the Second Season of Excavations, 1956. Jerusalem: Israel Exploration Society

Yadin, Y., Aharoni, Y., Amiran, R., Dothan, T., Dothan, M., Dunayevsky, I. and Perrot, J. 1961. Hazor III–IV. An Account of the Third and Fourth Seasons of Excavations, 1957-1958. Plates. Jerusalem: Israel Exploration Society

Yadin, Y., Amiran, R., Ben-Tor, A., Dothan, M., Dothan, T., Dunayevsky, I., Geva, S. and Stern, E. 1989. Hazor III–IV. An Account of the Third and Fourth Seasons of Excavations, 1957–1958. Text. Jerusalem: Israel Exploration Society

Link for above:
http://www.kinneret-excavations.org/download_files/nissinen_muenger_fs_van_der_kooij_2009.pdf

Some of the hits had some amusing speculation, like seeking to identify Dionysus with Yahweh, at least partly through shared snake-imagery.

b. Common Symbols
Snakes. Dionysus is surrounded by snakes: the god is born in a nest of serpents. As a boy, he is generally shown holding serpents, and later, he is symbolized as a mythical snake.18 The cult of Dionysus also involved the handling of snakes by Maenads, confirming his intimate association with this animal.19 Sabazius, the Thracian homolog of Dionysus, was also symbolized as a snake and this reptile played a central role in his cult.20 Yahweh is also described as surrounded by burning snakes (seraphim) by Isaiah (6.1-3), and flying snakes are sent by Yahweh against the enemies of Israel (Isa. 14.29). Here again, this association is devoid of any specific significance in a monotheistic context, where Yahweh reigns over the whole Universe. Nevertheless, the fact that the transformation of a staff into a snake (Exod. 4.1-5) is considered as the specific sign ensuring that Moses speaks in the name of Yahweh suggests that Yahweh is ore closely related to snakes than assumed by the monotheistic exegesis. This point is corroborated by the worship of Yahweh as a bronze snake (nehushtan) in Jerusalem, until the religious reform of Hezekiah.21

hmph.
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dysomniak, darwinian socialist

22 November 2012 at 1:46 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Alan Moore has some interesting opinions on snakes: http://youtu.be/Cam2kK7J_8k
432

theophontes (坏蛋)

22 November 2012 at 1:57 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Therefore the “” in the above. (In principle I agree with you though.)

I use the word in the sense of how they may be perceived by an earlier age. The animals appear, as if by magic to know what is coming, be it storm or earthquake. It would appear to an ignorant (by our lights) observer that they are indeed prescient. In terms of our discussion of Snake, we complicate the argument for this perceived prescience by imposing from the outside, as it were, knowledge that humanity has gained only very recently (and only in part).

The whole Snake story is complicated by being in onion-like layers:

1. The story of Genesis (which in itself can be read on different levels).
2. The local historical context in Canaan.
3. The impact of cultures and circumstances outside of the area in question.
4. The global realities, impinging on all of the above, that we now know.
5. … and (obviously we are learning more all the time, also we should add a “0.” above. Genesis likely grew out of much earlier oral traditions.)

Consider Snake’s “prescience” in each level in turn:

0. Prescient.
1. Prescient.
2. Prescient.
3. Prescient.
4. Reactive.
5. Reactive (I shall stick my neck out here.)

We now know the situation is like the brontosaurus. Whereas snake was aware of the whole brontosaurus, mere humans were only aware of the fat middle bit. They simply could not perceive the thin bits at either end, so that their awareness only began when matters were upon them. With science we can now get to the neck. In future we shall feel the breath on its nostrils and breathe a sigh of relief.
433

theophontes (坏蛋)

22 November 2012 at 2:31 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Owlmirror

Trying to lead the minions astray again, Owlmirror?

(There is also the Dionysus —> Jeebus —> YHWH angle but sadly, AFAIK, without Snake.)

@ dysomniak, darwinian socialist

Alan Moore has some interesting opinions on snakes

And here I sit without access to youtube. :’(

@ SGBM

My PC conked out recently so I lost TOR. I could reload the file you sent, but have forgotten the passwords to download it. Do you recall? Some characteristic of tardigrades?
434

Beatrice

22 November 2012 at 3:45 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

If a pro-veg person is approached by someone inviting affirmation for meat eating, they can ignore, disagree with parts, and/or say it’ll get easier in the future. Sometimes the safest thing is to ignore, but even that may be considered rude since they’ve been approached.

This can be read as implying some sort of danger of abuse from the person approaching them. You didn’t mean that? Ok then, good.
I’m reading too much between the lines. I sometimes do that.

I already wrote everything I intended to write about this. I don’t know what the hell you want from me. I didn’t write “both sides were equally wrong”.

It’s really great if you can go through 450+ comments thread and discuss it for days afterwards, but I can’t. Well, I probably could, but I really don’t want to.

I’m going to disengage from a conversation I don’t want to be a part of any more, since no one is forcing me to argue.

So, I’m shutting up about this. There will a ve*n thread again sooner or later and then we’ll see how discussions go.
I’ll try to do better, or ignore the whole thing if I feel shouty.
435

Owlmirror

22 November 2012 at 8:37 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

(There is also the Dionysus —> Jeebus —> YHWH angle but sadly, AFAIK, without Snake.)

Or so one might think. Yet the snake sheds its skin, and is thus a brilliant symbol for a dying and resurrecting god.

I suspect that the snake may have been associated with Asherah rather than with Yahweh, and so perhaps Genesis 3 was part of the campaign by Yahweh monolatrists to divorce Yahweh from Asherah and all of the symbols of Asherah.

Which explains how Snake knows what the fruit of the ToKoGaE will do and not do — he was hanging out with Asherah.

Referencing this:

This point is corroborated by the worship of Yahweh as a bronze snake (nehushtan) in Jerusalem, until the religious reform of Hezekiah.

I read another text in Google Books that describes the Ugaritic pantheon of which Yahweh and Asherah were once part, and explains it as a multilevel hierarchy, with the highest god (or gods) at the top, lower gods (and the “sons of the Gods” of Genesis 6 are suggested as being such lower gods), and messengers/slaves of the Gods at the lowest rank. The text identifies nechushtan as being an example of just such a low-ranking messenger/slave God; not Yahweh himself, but an intermediary assigned to handle snakebite cases on Yahweh’s behalf.
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theophontes (坏蛋)

22 November 2012 at 9:15 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ Owlmirror

the snake sheds its skin

Further: The snake also hibernates. Ie it goes underground into the realm of the dead and their cthonic rulers for winter and is therefore an ideal symbol for a year-god. (goddists get irate when you remind them jeebus is a year-god)

Asherah

It is easy to forget that there was ever a matriarchy and that the priestess held more power than the king. With the rise of the patriarchy all these godesses and their symbols would have to snuff it too. Snake would inevitably become demonised.

a multilevel hierarchy

A very good point to raise. Religion was much of a multi-nested heirarchy that extended from the heavens all the way into the household. YHWH and his Asherah would be seen in the king and his priestess/queen would be seen in the husband and his wife.

The whole idea of “Lord” also gets found in the king and in the landowners. His (in the patriarchy) word, on any level, would be absolute. Sin would be any challenge to this order and the evil must be rudely beaten out. (Spare the rod and spoil the child. There are no such things as “mistakes” – error is indicative of Teh Ebil ™ and must be physically removed.)
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theophontes (坏蛋)

22 November 2012 at 9:54 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

We must not forget that Adam only hit it off with Eve after his torrid affair with Lilith ended. Lilith went on to live in the desert with all her pets, including arrow snakes. Interestingly, KJV and a few other bibles get this all wrong:

There shall the great owle make her nest, and lay and hatch, and gather vnder her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, euery one with her mate. — KJV Isaiah 34:15

(My emphasis, not Isaiah’s)

Nowadays we know he really meant Snake (notice it is Mrs Snake and her kids):

There shall the great owl – (קפוז qı̂pôz). Gesenius supposes that this is the arrow-snake, so called from its darting or springing, in the manner of the rattle-snake – from an obsolete root to draw oneself together, to contract. Bochart (Hieroz. ii. 3. 11. 408-419) has examined the meaning of the word at length, and comes to the conclusion that it means the serpent which the Greeks called acontias, and the Latins, jaculus – the arrow-snake. The serpent is oviparous, and nourishes its young.

Linky.

Under her shadow – This might be done by the serpent that should coil up and cherish her young.

Not only is Snake a beautiful serpent, she is also a loving and caring parent.
438

dysomniak, darwinian socialist

22 November 2012 at 10:17 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

theophontes: until you’re out from behind the Great Firewall, perhaps this interview can tide you over.
439

theophontes (坏蛋)

22 November 2012 at 10:59 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

More about Lilith, and why she was removed (quite late in the day) from the bible. To be replaced by a screech-owl. (Only found in the Americas, incidentally!)

Link: Adam’s First Wife: The Story of Lilith

Owls Owlmirror!
440

theophontes (坏蛋)

22 November 2012 at 11:04 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

@ dysomniak

Thanks for the link! (Although it is a both a blessing and a curse )
441

Owlmirror

22 November 2012 at 11:06 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Lilith as Adam’s first wife is actually much much later; from Babylonian mythos interwoven with Hebrew midrash .

Don’t confuse midrash with what the original authors and audience had in mind.
442

Dhorvath, OM

22 November 2012 at 11:25 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

SG,

What usually happens — and what happened in this case — is that some meat eaters treat the very presence of vegetarians who are talking about why it’s wrong to eat meat as synonymous with those vegetarians asking meat eaters to justify themselves.

This troubles me. I do this, or at least I think I do. When a group or person talks about the problems with something I do, I will join their conversation with some of the reasons that I continue. And in an example of basically the very thing you are saying is unfair, I feel inclined to defend acting that way.

What we do matters to a lot of people. Being exposed to people who think our behaviour should be avoided, not just as a matter of taste, but in an imperative manner, is an injunction regarding our behaviour. It may not be successful, but it is at the least playing some role in our future decisions. Reacting to that is not wrong.
443

Owlmirror

22 November 2012 at 11:46 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment

Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal

[Thunderdome]

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