Did anyone attend The Paradigm Symposium?


I’m just curious — The Paradigm Symposium was held last weekend in Minneapolis, featuring such remarkable stars of the wacky contingent as Erich von Däniken, Giorgio Tsoukalos, and George Noory. This is the conference I was invited to attend, but didn’t bother.

For such a glitzily publicized event and a large collection of weird “stars”, though, there isn’t much appearing on the web about it. Maybe everyone who attended was sworn to secrecy as they left, or the Men in Black showed up and wiped all their memories.

Anyway, if you were there and would care to submit a guest post, I’d probably put it up here.


I’ve been told that Eve Siebert attended, and also tweeted about it. Surprise, surprise, the speakers didn’t understand evolution.

Comments

  1. says

    Ichthyic,

    wouldn’t you rather I just buy your book?

    that’s why you’re here, right?

    mr. “I’m an explorer because I lived in 3 states in the midwest”

    The book would cost you more. I’d settle for the $5 if I were you. Are you trying to demonstrate how a real scientist gambles? If so, I’ll bet against you more often.

    When did I ever say I was an explorer? I thought you said you’d bet $5 I’d never left my home state for over two months my entire life. There was no quote hailing back to some other post or comment. I told you exactly what you were betting on: where I had lived out of state for more thn two months.

    Wait a minute… this is just another one of those diversionary posts, isn’t it? This is just a silly attempt by you to welsh on your bet, isn’t it…?

  2. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    I have given very consistent answers. And when people queried me on them, I gave the very same answer

    The very same non-answers. For example, how long have been agnostic, 2 years or 15 years. It is unclear from you evasions which it is. Failure to say a simple one or the other is a form of lying, and you know that. Which is why you are nothing but a liar and bullshitter.

  3. says

    Again repeating

    You intentionally are vague and leave wiggle room, never fully committing to anything so you can justify back tracking and scolding people for misreading you. Honest people state their case and make it, you do not. You argue and constantly shift your case based on how the tide is turning. You try to avoid ‘losing’ so much you don’t say anything. Your style of dialogue is intentionally and painfully protean, which is why people are frustrated with talking to you.

    It’s like trying to nail jello to the wall

  4. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Are you dimwitted, or do you play one for your lurkers? Or do you simply not read?

    Which is it fuckwit, 2 or 15? STRAIGHT ANSWER, OR YOU ARE A CONFIRMED LIAR AND BULSHITTER.

  5. Menyambal --- Sambal's Little Helper says

    People, people, people. He said he’d supply evidence, and I’m sure he’ll do so just as soon as Jesus gets back.

    Scotty:

    But I have read that there is absolutely no DNA linkage between the individual fossilized stages representing the ascendency of man from lowest order of primate …

    Now see, there was a chance to supply evidence, by saying where you’d read that. Instead, we get a Romney, with you just taking what you read on faith, and you expecting us to trust you. Do you know enough about DNA to realize that we can’t yet tell much about what codes for what? We certainly can’t look at DNA and say that a certain section was used by Australopithecus (damn, misspelled one letter) to look a certain way. We can, at best say that us and chimps differ in certain ways. We cannot dig up fossil DNA and read it like Jurassic Park.

    But no, you read some goober, and trust that goofy information, and you do no work nor any research, you just take it in trust. Well, we don’t trust you. We want evidence.

    For instance: What evidence do you have that the Book of Exodus is not a complete fabrication?

    By the way, it isn’t personal that we don’t trust you, we don’t really trust anybody without evidence. The insults and shit, on the other hand, that’s personal, just for you, and well-deserved.

  6. says

    Nerd of DickHead,

    The very same non-answers. For example, how long have been agnostic, 2 years or 15 years. It is unclear from you evasions which it is. Failure to say a simple one or the other is a form of lying, and you know that. Which is why you are nothing but a liar and bullshitter.

    By your standard you just set forth in this quote, you have declared yourself a liar. I have asked you at least a dozen time to give me your credentials and what field you work in science.

    You have evaded, ignored and failed to either say one way or the other.

    Go to bed now, it’s after 9:00PM.

  7. anteprepro says

    You intentionally are vague and leave wiggle room, never fully committing to anything so you can justify back tracking and scolding people for misreading you. Honest people state their case and make it, you do not. You argue and constantly shift your case based on how the tide is turning. You try to avoid ‘losing’ so much you don’t say anything. Your style of dialogue is intentionally and painfully protean, which is why people are frustrated with talking to you.

    Or, in other words: Obvious troll is obvious.

    The amount of substanceless bluster and bobbing around that scotty has done in just this one thread is simply remarkable.

  8. says

    Menyambal,

    By the way, it isn’t personal that we don’t trust you, we don’t really trust anybody without evidence. The insults and shit, on the other hand, that’s personal, just for you, and well-deserved.

    I get that position. Carry on.

    And, no, I know absolutely nothing about DNA, well, except that I have it. I think. Right…? That’s why I posed my question to you (all) about what I had read.

  9. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    By your standard you just set forth in this quote, you have declared yourself a liar.

    Evidence required, not just your OPINION. Your unevidenced OPINION is *POOF* dismissed as fuckwittery. And my business card says Sr. Scientist. Trump that liar and bullshitter. My field is irrelevant to my ability to tell you what is and isn’t scientific…and you know that.

  10. Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts says

    Fuckwit,

    Cite an example of 1) where I have lied…


    Lie #1,

    You are, none of you here, looking for evidence…

    Lie #2,

    But I have read that there is absolutely no DNA linkage between the individual fossilized stages representing the ascendency of man from lowest order of primate (would that be austioppithicus [SP]?) to modern man… *later*…I didn’t bring up anything about DNA.

    Fuck it, I’m not wasting my time with such a broken play-thing. You are not worth it.

    SQUEeepfft. ..Whoops, the squeaker has been popped.

  11. firstapproximation says

    Lemme try that with less errors….

    Hey scotty,

    Just out of curiosity, how do you think the election is going go tomorrow?

  12. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    scotty:

    Nerd is not the one making extraordinary claims. Or supporting extraordinary claims. Or expecting anyone to take those extraordinary claims on faith with no evidence or citations. You are. Not Nerd. Were Nerd of Redhead making extraordinary claims, we would be asking him for citations and evidence.

  13. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    That’s why I posed my question to you (all) about what I had read.

    Where did you read it. Citation, or you made it up. Welcome to science, where you ARE WRONG UNTIL YOU EVIDENCE YOURSELF RIGHT.

  14. Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts says

    Scotty,
    I think there is no evidence at all for ancient aliens. Prove me long*?

    PFFT**

    *It shouldn’t take a day to find one link, and yes, I know you just met some deadline, blah, blah.

    ** Chew-toy’s new noise.

  15. anteprepro says

    He’s a trickster, an old style fast talker. Imagine him in the rapid fire tone of James Woods or a cartoon Used Car Salesman. That’s what he’s doing.

    I would agree with the caveat that he is an especially incompetent version, soaking in flop sweat.

  16. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Were Nerd of Redhead making extraordinary claims, we would be asking him for citations and evidence.

    And I would either have to supply them if I were a person of honesty and integrity, or shut the fuck up. If I kept making claims I, like you, could be accused of being a liar and bullshitter. What is your excuse for not shutting the fuck up?

  17. says

    Ing,

    No no no no no he is not a troll. He’s a trickster, an old style fast talker. Imagine him in the rapid fire tone of James Woods or a cartoon Used Car Salesman. That’s what he’s doing.

    You and all your smarts. Look at you. Your mama must be proud.

    What you have not factored in is the fact that all of you are talking to ONE guy. I’m talking to… how many…? All at once. The rapid fire ain’t nuthin’ but me trying to keep up.

    And while you may all win the Science Guy Brownie Points, you lose on the moxie. You’re just thuggish middle schoolers admittedly trying to save face for your lurkers. You lie for your lurkers. You obfuscate for your lurkers. You put on the dog and pony extravaganza for your lurkers.

    But, as I have said before, you lose major points for being dipshits in the “Science is cool for everybody” category. If this is the scientific community’s PR campaign, they’d better fire their ad agency and start shopping it around.

    All you really do here is establish my charge that the scientific community is filled with people who have no idea how the common person perceives them. You artful at the insult and toss out a damned impressive twist on every variation of the word “fuck” you can fit into a pronoun. But your draw to those who might want to know more… for shit.

    But keep that ball in the air for your lurkers.

  18. Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts says

    oops, prove me *wrong*, not long.

    Typo monster has gotten very fat off this thread. My pants are plenty bogged, but I suppose I could be more coffeed-up.

  19. Ichthyic says

    Are you trying to demonstrate how a real scientist gambles?

    yup.

    I now know where you lived and what you did.

    we now know the sum total of your knowledge comes from being an ad executive.

    your travel knowledge comes from living in the midwest.

    I’d say I got exactly what i wanted.

  20. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    You’re just thuggish middle schoolers admittedly trying to save face for your lurkers.

    Pot, kettle, black, liar and bullshitter.

    But, as I have said before, you lose major points for being dipshits

    Sorry, you lose points for being a lying and bullshitting dipshit. You know that. But you do it anyway.

    All you really do here is establish my charge that the scientific community is filled with people who have no idea how the common person perceives them.

    Irrelevant, and you know that. Science doesn’t give a fuck about liars and bullshitters. Which is all you are.

  21. says

    You and all your smarts. Look at you. Your mama must be proud.

    What you have not factored in is the fact that all of you are talking to ONE guy. I’m talking to… how many…? All at once. The rapid fire ain’t nuthin’ but me trying to keep up

    That’s a “creative” misreading of what I meant.

    Oh are we at “abusive Scotty” now?

    I seem to have touched a nerve.

    All you really do here is establish my charge that the scientific community is filled with people who have no idea how the common person perceives them.

    Nice to see you’ve given up being right and are now just whining about losing.

  22. Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts says

    What you have not factored in is the fact that all of you are talking to ONE guy. I’m talking to… how many…? All at once. The rapid fire ain’t nuthin’ but me trying to keep up.

    I suggest you focus less on keeping up and more on the quality of your comments.

    Quality to be measured by how clear your claims are AND how much evidence you supply for them.

  23. says

    Nerd of DickHead,

    What is your excuse for not shutting the fuck up?

    Seriously? Dipshits like you who keep insisting i shut up, but have offered up nothing but blowhard.

    But, hey, here’s my hand – no, not in marriage (not that there’s anything wrong with that) – but as a gesture toward a newfound paradigm between us, Nerd. You stop being a dickhead, and I’ll see what I can do to offer you more of what you need from me?

    Does that work…?

  24. firstapproximation says

    Ing,

    You intentionally are vague and leave wiggle room, never fully committing to anything so you can justify back tracking and scolding people for misreading you. Honest people state their case and make it, you do not. You argue and constantly shift your case based on how the tide is turning. You try to avoid ‘losing’ so much you don’t say anything.

    Woo_Monster,

    I suggest you focus less on keeping up and more on the quality of your comments.

    QFT

  25. Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts says

    Citation for your comment about DNA or shut the fuck up.

    Also,
    I think there is no evidence at all for ancient aliens. Prove me wrong?

  26. says

    Woo,

    i appreciate what might seem like a much more civil tone. I think.

    I will supply as much evidence as I can. But I was hoping to get some answers, too. Or at least some shared information. I don’t understand the purpose for degradation of character when you (general for folks here on this thread) think you’ve stumbled upon something.

    Most of you know I haven’t lied about anything, but its a great show if you continually take me to task for your lurkers. That’s more dishonest than anything I’ve ever said.

    As for what appears to be discrepancies to you, just ask. But damnit, then READ the response! I have given no one any reason to not take me at my word. Just because you disagree with me doesn’t mean I am lying about something.

  27. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Seriously? Dipshits like you who keep insisting i shut up, but have offered up nothing but blowhard.

    No evidence from you, so you should shut the fuck up, or you are blowhard liar and bullshitter. As we both know.

  28. says

    What you have not factored in is the fact that all of you are talking to ONE guy. I’m talking to… how many…? All at once.

    You know why? It’s because you’ve made a lot of claims, and not backed up any, or almost any, whichever.

    This is the always the way with you bullshitting pseudoscientific woomeisters, you come in with BS, you get called on it by all of the people who don’t like the lies, then you whine that you have so many people writing that you can hardly answer.

    No, you’re getting a lot of responses because you don’t answer anything that you should, you feckless fraud. To be sure, you hardly know anything about discovery and proper evidence, but unfortunately you’ve chosen a territory where you have the obligation to know and to provide evidence. Ignoramus being asked for what you don’t understand, of course, but you’re still required to have some evidence for your claims. It just never occurred to you that it was important, instead of the adman glib made-up tripe that has gotten you through too much of your life.

    It’s the absolute lack of any proper response from you that keeps people asking, and it was clear that you weren’t about to provide any proper response from the beginning. I’m not sure why such an ignoramus manages to get this much attention even so, but the nothing you’ve provided thus far hardly warrants the whiny complaint that you’re being hounded for a proper reply at any time.

    Glen Davidson

  29. Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts says

    blah, blah, irrelevant, blah…I will supply as much evidence as I can.. blah blah, yada yada

    When you finally do put up some evidence, THEN one might have a reason to take you at your word.

    Words must be supported by evidence, otherwise they are just bullshit.

    PFFT!

  30. says

    Glen,

    You know why? It’s because you’ve made a lot of claims, and not backed up any, or almost any, whichever.

    Seriously. I keep hearing that, and I am flummoxed. Please recite for me this list of the “lot of claims.”

  31. says

    Gaddamn, Woo!

    When you finally do put up some evidence, THEN one might have a reason to take you at your word.

    What evidence do you want from me? Evidence that we were visited by aliens in our primordial past? There is none. We all know this.

    What else do you want by way of evidence from me?

  32. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    You finally learned to blockquote. Will check back in 5 years to see if you’ve figured out crop circles.

  33. says

    What evidence do you want from me? Evidence that we were visited by aliens in our primordial past? There is none. We all know this.

    Obviously, WE do not as some of us write fucking books promoting it. Hell even if you don’t know but did when you wrote your damn book you’re basically now admitting to knowingly exploiting bullshit. Really the only question is when, if ever, you started consciously being a bullshitter rather than just mistaken.

  34. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    What evidence do you want from me? Evidence that we were visited by aliens in our primordial past? There is none. We all know this.

    Then why do you claim that archaeologists (and other scientists) should take the idea seriously and devote time and money to investigating it? Then why do you write an entire book claiming that not only are there ancient aliens, but they have bred with humans? Then why do you claim that a particular sculpture of a turtle is different enough that it could be considered evidence?

  35. says

    Glen,

    It’s the absolute lack of any proper response from you that keeps people asking, and it was clear that you weren’t about to provide any proper response from the beginning.

    I have given “proper response” over and over and over again. Long before we hit 500 posts. The real question is: are you reading them? Because you keep asking the same questions, despite my answers.

    Please tell me what you feel I have been avoiding and I’ll tell you if that’s something I haven’t already answered at least a half dozen times.

  36. Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts says

    Fuckwit,

    i appreciate what might seem like a much more civil tone. I think.

    Did you say you appreciate my “civil tone”, or am I misreading you?

    I really don’t get your understanding of the term “tone”, fuckwit.
    ***

    I greatly disdain bullshitters who put liars for jeebus ancient aliens in front of an audience. People who make money of peoples’ gullibility can fuck off.

    I don’t think your woo is *as* harmful as some of the other types of woo, such as alt. med, faith healing, racial conspiracies*, or fundamentalist religion to name a few, but it is still mind-numbingly stupid. It is stupid because it is an outlandish, extraordinary claim, for which there is no evidence. Supporting AA-ers promotes irrational thinking and it is dishonest.

    *Though there is some of this going on with the AA-ers

  37. firstapproximation says

    What evidence do you want from me? Evidence that we were visited by aliens in our primordial past? There is none. We all know this.

    Evidence that these ancient alien theorists should be taken seriously, which btw, is evidence you said you were going to provide. Evidence for your claim that the Hebrews lived in Egypt and weren’t slaves.

  38. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    I have given “proper response” over and over and over again.

    No, unless your “proper response” is lies, bullshit, and evasions. The true proper response is the evidence to back up your ideas. Which you avoid like the plague, will tells all of us here and the lurkers, that you are a liar and bullshitter.

  39. consciousness razor says

    All you really do here is establish my charge that the scientific community is filled with people who have no idea how the common person perceives them. You artful at the insult and toss out a damned impressive twist on every variation of the word “fuck” you can fit into a pronoun.

    I’m not a fucking scientist (or a non-fucking scientist). You could say I’m a “common person,” but that hasn’t stopped me from knowing since you arrived that you’re full of shit. It seems credentials aren’t necessary for that.

    It’s kind of funny (and sad) that you seem to think you’re speaking to the scientific establishment. I guess it would be even funnier (but also even more sad) if all your bullshit here was published in a peer-reviewed journal, but that is not happening. This is a blog.

  40. says

    Ogvorbis,

    Then why do you claim that archaeologists (and other scientists) should take the idea seriously and devote time and money to investigating it?

    For the same reason we devote any time to something for which we don’t have sufficient evidence. Perhaps some of these question are in the “it doesn’t matter” category for scientists. But there are good people who say there is more to these things than just silly ideas.

    And no one is saying anyone should drop their busy work to devote time to something they have no desire to support. But i know of some scientists who might be happy to examine the theories or notions, but they fear repercussion form their peers… much like this thread illustrates.

    Don’t take it seriously. But devote maybe a day or two a year to have a look without preconceived disregard.

    Do I think any evidence exists? No. Not that we know of. But is that conclusive proof for all time that it will never be forthcoming? Your answer can only be “yes” if you’ve already made up your mind.

    Same goes the AA-ers. They need to approach this fully prepared to have their notions dashed to pieces.

    Then why do you write an entire book claiming that not only are there ancient aliens, but they have bred with humans?

    But you see, the entire book isn’t about that. That was one of the alternatives offered up in the intro, and in a section later in the book. The bulk of the book is about Hebrew religious mythology. If you’d like, I’ll send you a book and you can see for yourself. The entire book was about exploring the Hebrew Nephilim mythology.

    Then why do you claim that a particular sculpture of a turtle is different enough that it could be considered evidence?

    I don’t personally claim it means anything. But I know that this is one of the questions posed. If we are to look to archaeology, in part, for answers and evidence, what do you do when that evidence seems to contradict itself?

  41. Menyambal --- Sambal's Little Helper says

    scottyroberts:

    I have asked you at least a dozen time to give me your credentials and what field you work in science.

    And I have told you half a dozen times that it doesn’t matter what anybody’s credential are. In this blog, we don’t go by authority, we go by argument and evidence.

    But, to make you happy: I am the most interesting primate on the planet. The pope comes to me for confession. I am the main editor of Wikipedia. I have a doctorate in Russian pneumatics. I am the secret controller of NASA … see, it’s the internet, I can say anything, just like you can write yourself a bio that would make Hugh Hefner a bit squicky.

    Plus, asking someone again and again for personal information, after they have declined to answer is very rude. As is declining to answer when someone has asked you again and again for reasons to think that Exodus isn’t a steaming pile of sermon-fodder.

    And, no, I know absolutely nothing about DNA, well, except that I have it. I think. Right…? That’s why I posed my question to you (all) about what I had read.

    And it would have been much better to give the source so we could read the original. But given the level of your reading, why would we even bother to take such a question seriously, why would we think you could understand a response, and why the fuck are you asking strangers on the internet to do your homework for you?

    What you have not factored in is the fact that all of you are talking to ONE guy. I’m talking to… how many…? All at once. The rapid fire ain’t nuthin’ but me trying to keep up.

    Yeah, thanks, dickweed, for yet another insult to our intelligences. We know you are on your own here, and you have reminded us of that before, and we have done this little dance with other trolls before. We know we’ve got you swarmed, and we know you haven’t answered ANYBODY at any useful level.

    But keep playing the martyr card, and keep telling us we’re stupid. That’s really gonna help.

    You’re just thuggish middle schoolers admittedly trying to save face for your lurkers. You lie for your lurkers. You obfuscate for your lurkers. You put on the dog and pony extravaganza for your lurkers.

    You’ve really fixated on the lurkers. Is that somehow like God for you? You know, the hidden observer making judgement thing? Is that why it resonates for you?

    Hey, lurkers! Your father was a hamster and your mother smells of elderberries! Unlurk, you useless gits, or go away.

    If this is the scientific community’s PR campaign, they’d better fire their ad agency and start shopping it around.

    No, just the comment section of a biology blog. Are you imagining some shadow conspiracy or something?

    All you really do here is establish my charge that the scientific community is filled with people who have no idea how the common person perceives them.

    This isn’t really “the scientific community”, and I am a fat white guy in the Ozarks, about as common as the drunks next door. And the really common folk have made it quite clear how they perceive science, thanks—again, we aren’t stupid, we’ve got internet access, and we are communicating with you.

    You artful at the insult and toss out a damned impressive twist on every variation of the word “fuck” you can fit into a pronoun.

    Yeah, I do love the writing here.

    But your draw to those who might want to know more… for shit.

    Actually, we don’t do it just for them—that’s your obsession—and we do get a lot of former lurkers who come in to say they have learned a lot. I know I have learned a lot.

    Just because you want us to explain things to you in the way you like, instead of doing your own studying and thinking, you get all shirty. It’s a damn popular blog, in case you haven’t noticed.

  42. says

    Please recite for me this list of the “lot of claims.”

    I’m not about to make a comprehensive list of your pathetic BS, but there’s the DNA bit, the claims about cultural artifacts not fitting in (at least perhaps not) the cultural context, the claim that science is religion (here? Probably, but don’t really care, it’s part of your dishonest spiel), the claim that the ufologists are practicing in religion by dissing your junk (not here, don’t care, you need to back up any of your claims, including those you leave out here to obfuscate the issue), a host of claims about people here, which itself would constitute a considerable list (some might be considered supported by context, many not), your claim that your junk is worth considering despite the fact that it doesn’t fit with science (sure, as a psychological study in woomeisters, but that’s not what you meant), the basic claim that ancient astronauts are worthy of consideration for which I know of no good evidence whatsoever, and all claims relating to your open-mindedness and knowledge. Of the latter two, we see neither.

    That’s quite enough, although I’m sure I could add a bunch if I were going to serve as your lackey paying attention to the gibberish that you spout, when you don’t even trouble to keep track of it. Not likely.

    Glen Davidson

  43. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    But there are good people who say there is more to these things than just silly ideas.

    Irrelevant. Science doesn’t give a shit about your questions. The answers and supporting evidence might be of interest to science. So, either show that evidence, or shut the fuck up.

    But I know that this is one of the [inane and meaninless] questions posed.

    Fixed that for you. Your questions are irrelevant to science. And you know that.

  44. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    For the same reason we devote any time to something for which we don’t have sufficient evidence.

    You wrote earlier that there was no evidence. Now you write that there is insufficient evidence. Insufficient evidence mans that there is some. Where is it? Or is this another non-lie?

    If we are to look to archaeology, in part, for answers and evidence, what do you do when that evidence seems to contradict itself?

    You look for an explanation that fits the available evidence. And your explanation must have evidence supporting it.

  45. Amphiox says

    I have asked you at least a dozen time to give me your credentials and what field you work in science.

    Hardly surprising to see scottyroberts devolve into the fallacy of authority.

  46. says

    Do I think any evidence exists [for ancient aliens]? No. Not that we know of. But is that conclusive proof for all time that it will never be forthcoming? Your answer can only be “yes” if you’ve already made up your mind.

    Oh no, not the “can’t prove that it didn’t happen” line common to all pseudoscientists.

    Guess what, no one’s keeping anyone from looking for evidence for ancient astronauts, ID, or herbal remedies. And we actually expect scientists who might have found something truly strange to at least consider the possibility of aliens, since they’re a real possibility. WTF do you think SETI’s about anyhow?

    No, you don’t study anything lacking in evidence at the present. You find evidence, probably while looking for something else (because who’s going to waste time chasing for what has at present no evidence?), then you study. We’ll study UFOs when there’s genuine evidence, and intelligent design as well when there’s genuine evidence.

    Someone says something stupid, so scientists have to go chase after that. That’s the demand of charlatans such as yourself. No, come up with evidence that there’s something to study–even if it might not turn out to have alien origins–and then it’ll be studied.

    If only you knew something about real discovery, rather than what you merely imagine it to be about…

    Glen Davidson

  47. Amphiox says

    For the same reason we devote any time to something for which we don’t have sufficient evidence.

    If one really, really believes something, but doesn’t have sufficient evidence, then the honest and responsible course of action is to go LOOK for the evidence oneself, and PRESENT that evidence until it becomes sufficient to convince the scientific consensus.

    That is what Newton did. That is what Galileo did. That is what Einstein did.

    And if what evidence one has is not sufficient to convince one’s skeptics, then one does NOT wank about it, complain about it, or snark about it. One goes back and looks for MORE evidence.

    That is what Wegener did. That is what Margulis did. That is what Marshall did.

    It’s called “taking personal responsibility”. It doesn’t just apply to taxes and social programs.

  48. says

    Woo,

    Did you say you appreciate my “civil tone”, or am I misreading you?

    Are you saying that I misread you? I thought your tone was quite civil. If I was wrong, I will withdraw my statement, and you can be as civil or uncivil as you’d like.

    As for the rest of what you said, we are on similar pages, for I too hold great disdains for certain things, oner of them is needing to be uncivil for the sake of putting on a dog and pony show for lurkers.

    As for Fuckewits, fuckwits are fuckwits. Period. There’s plenty of those in the AA and Scientific fields to cancel each other out. And, by the by, you possess scientific fact and still be a fuckwit.

  49. Amphiox says

    Do I think any evidence exists [for ancient aliens]? No. Not that we know of. But is that conclusive proof for all time that it will never be forthcoming?

    If scientific resources were infinite, and the time available to search for evidence infinite, then there are all sorts of interesting questions that we could go looking for the answers for.

    If our own minds and lives were infinite, then there are all sorts of interesting things we can spend time and energy thinking about.

    But scientific resources are NOT infinite, nor are individual intellectual resources. Hard choices must be made on what to spend these limited resources on. And there are many more pressing and more useful things to spend those resources on than something for which there is absolutely no evidence, in the faint hope that some time, some place, the evidence will some day be forthcoming.

    And if someone should think otherwise, then the onus is on that person to pay the piper, and fork over the intellectual, temporal, and financial resources to go snipe hunting.

  50. says

    Amphiox,

    Hardly surprising to see scottyroberts devolve into the fallacy of authority.

    I haven’t asked of him anything he hasn’t asked of me. The difference is that I graciously responded while he ignored my request, yet continued to offer up new ridicule.

    A request is hardly the stuff of fallacious authoritarian devolution.

  51. Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze– says

    Well, I can’t believe scottyroberts has lasted this long.
    3 pages.
    You’d think he would learn something more than how to blockquote after all this time.

  52. Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze– says

    So scottyroberts, I checked out your post @272. Out of that, I got that you’re an atheist agnostic struggling Christian.
    How the hell does that explain what your beliefs are?

  53. says

    Wow. I had no idea this thread was still going on. I wish I had paid attention to for longer but now I am impossibly far behind. Lately I have, much to my sadness, not seen many threads where a decent crackpot type has come by and stuck around for a bit. I miss the creationists and other similarly minded people that would come here and chat for a while, it brought some joy into my life to see them flail and sometimes I even learned something reading through the comments. It does not seem to happen as often any longer.

    Screw it, I am going to go back and find the start of this and in the very least, skim the posts and see if it brings my happiness levels back up.

  54. Tony–Queer Duck Overlord of The Bronze– says

    Oh wow Travis. Good luck with that reading.
    I’d love to see your face when you get through reading the crap scottyroberts has written the last few days.

  55. says

    I have already been reduced to skimming it and scanning for keywords that catch my attention. It is getting late and I sort of want to go take some photos before going to bed.

    *sigh* I think things have changed and I will never find that old joy again.

    *sob*

  56. Ichthyic says

    As for Fuckewits, fuckwits are fuckwits. Period.

    if you haven’t provided any evidence for any of your other contentions, you most certainly have provided plenty of evidence for your being a fuckwit alrighty.

  57. firstapproximation says

    Scotty, you’ve been so dishonest I’m going to punish you by quoting you more.

    That humanity experienced an interruption in its ancient past is incontrovertible in my mind. The question of extra-terrestrial interference in our genetics and bloodline is most certainly a reality, though something that will be debated in greater halls of academia and bastions of thinking far beyond my scope and attainment.

    [….]
    Scott Alan Roberts
    August 30, 2011

    The Rise and Fall of the NEPHILIM:The Untold Story of Fallen Angels, Giants on the Earth, and Their Extraterrestrial Origins, Preface.

  58. firstapproximation says

    Hanging him some more with his own words:

    It is my belief that there exist out there beings much greater than ourselve—perhaps not greater in reason and compassion, but greater in the sense that they hold a power that was strong enough to create us, and then strong enough to manipulate our genetics and bloodlines. It is my belief that there is a great, universal spirituality that resembles nothing like that which we have been taught or have conceived in our wildest fictions.

    The Nephilim rose to dominance on the earth as the children of a mixed race of superior beings and human women. They, as all things do, degraded and became corrupt, but their decay and decadence were on as grandiose a scheme as their unnatural origins. They wreaked havoc and tragedy and catastrophic corruption among humankind. Then they fell in the great judgment imposed by the king of all that exists, only to return in the form of pure evil.

    The Rise and Fall of the NEPHILIM:The Untold Story of Fallen Angels, Giants on the Earth, and Their Extraterrestrial Origins

  59. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    You’d think he would learn something more than how to blockquote after all this time. – Tony

    Actually, I’m amazed he’s managed that.

  60. says

    first approximation,
    You can hang me on these words, then, too. This is from the new book releasing in February. It’s a bit out-of-context here, as is the passage you lifted from Nephilim, but it demonstrates where I have taken this whole notion since the writing of the first book. This hasn’t gone through final edits, but here is a section from chapter four where I addressed the psychology behind why people believe some of these things. I obviously can’t post the other 80% of the chapter, as the book isn’t yet in print, but here is a look…

    * * *

    …in contrast to German psychoanalyst Karen Horney, a contemporary of both Freud and Adler, who pushed her idea that humans don’t strive for superiority, they strive for a self image built out of idealism. People don’t believe their real self is acceptable, so, out of necessity and psychological survival, we create – out of whole cloth – an idolized self, the thing we think we should be.3

    Now, put that in your kit bag and walk it over here to see how it fits into the greater picture:

    The entire notion of paleo-contact may be simply explained as that we’ve devised from our own imaginations. As we have created religions of whole cloth, constructed on the shifting foundation of spiritual experience, we have done the very same thing with the notion of extraterrestrial races that live and operate behind the scenes of humanity. In religion, there are things we hail to as evidences, yet with no solid, empirical facts to back the claims other than a history rife nothing more than myth building within myth building layered upon myth building.

    It is clear that the human psyche is comprised of both the Freudian and Adlerian theories of primary expressions of the psyche – we humans have both the need to look to our pasts to determine where we came from, and the need to allow our future aspirations to pull us forward. And out of both, we create our present realities and live within the frameworks we compose for ourselves.

    Does this, then, bring to utter discredit the theory of alien interaction with human beings? Does it dismiss completely the notion that there are races of extraterrestrial (ETs), interterrestrial (ITs), ultraterrestrial (UTs) dwelling among us and influencing activity on this planet? Not necessarily. Just as I cannot dismiss the existence of a God or the veracity of ancient religions on the simple notion that they are unquantifiable by the scientific method, I cannot dismiss the possibility that we have been visited by beings outside the realm of our sciences or understanding.

    And this is where any form of intelligent discourse on these matters collide, as opposing trains approaching on the same track.

    The proofs and evidences that exist to substantiate a factual claim that alien races exist, visit and operate on this planet, are as evasive as the proofs and evidences required to prove the existence of god, or the existence of ghosts of dead people materializing at midnight on the third full moon of every year.

    In short, there is no solid proof beyond highly subjective personal experience and anecdotal evidence, which is too subjective to be evidence at all. But has that lack of measurable quantifiability prevented humanity from its historical, perpetual worship of a god, gods and other forms of divinities? Not in the least. As with Religion, ancient and modern alien contact theory has its experiencers, such as the one mentioned in the opening of the introduction of this book, but they become the promulgators of personal, individual contact and intercourse (not limited to a sexual understanding). Armed with only their own words as a measure, they proclaim that they have seen the unseen, spoken with the invisible and learned the secret knowledges not known to others. These types are the founders of religious thought within the alien religion – and I don’t say this to cast any sort of dispersion on their claims, because – hey – it’s their experience, more power to ‘em. I merely make the comparison between the spread of ancient religion and the evolution of religious thought within the alien subculture.

    Just as Elil became Elohim, and Enki/Ea became Jehovah, so the progression of alien esoterica has developed into its current state. And the evangelists of the theory are as convinced in their perceptions and evidences as are the professors and theologians in different trains of religious thought, who many times are found to overlap the two fields. Why and how do they do that? Because the two fields are one-in-same; they are both outward expressions of inner desires; projections of we want the world to be. Both religion and alienist trains of thinking appeal to the spiritual composition of the human psyche, those parts of the individual psyche that need something to answer the greater questions of what lay beyond the explorable sciences.

  61. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    It is clear that the human psyche is comprised of both the Freudian and Adlerian theories of primary expressions of the psyche – scottyroberts

    No it isn’t. Freudian psychoanalysis (I know less of Adler) is more or less pure pseudoscience, and in the USA (it’s not really taken seriously anywhere else these days), has become a large-scale scam, although it must be admitted it only exploits the well-off. There’s no evidence I know of for the major tenets of Freudian psychology, no evidence I know of (beyond anecdote) that psychoanalysis is ever beneficial, and some that it is harmful.

    Assuming the extract you give from your new book is an accurate reflection of the contents, what changed your mind? In 2011 you were thought it had been proved that aliens not only visited the earth, but interbred with humans. Now you admit there’s no good evidence for these claims.

  62. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    It’s very obvious, and well evidenced, Snotty is a writer of fiction, pretending to write non-fiction.

  63. says

    Nick Gotts,

    Assuming the extract you give from your new book is an accurate reflection of the contents, what changed your mind? In 2011 you were thought it had been proved that aliens not only visited the earth, but interbred with humans. Now you admit there’s no good evidence for these claims.

    As strange as this may sound, Nick, it is all hinged to my view of God, and how dramatically that has changed. Comparative studies aren’t a new thing to me, we simply filtered it through our theology when I was younger, as opposed to viewing it for what it is.

    In a weird way, these books have been very personal for me, in that they are a bit of presenting ideas that have morphed since I had the opportunity to publish them. Its as if the “forced” writing of a book contract has made me put these things onto paper, and I have had to really think through what I believed.

    Even Nephilim is not as straight forward “ancient alien” as some of the passages might appear. I was taken to task by ancient alienists out there for slamming their theories, too.

    I assert that there is no good evidence. But – and this might get you wrankled with me again – I am not closed to the notion. If there is tangible evidence to find, I wish I could be a part of finding it, but that I would have to leave to those who dedicate their lives to finding this stuff.

  64. vaiyt says

    @83 (plus one thousand):
    And that’s supposed to convince us? You’re just confirming to us that you’re a crank who thinks wishful thinking has the same value as reality.

  65. says

    Vaiyt

    And that’s supposed to convince us? You’re just confirming to us that you’re a crank who thinks wishful thinking has the same value as reality.

    If that’s what you really think, then there it is.

  66. vaiyt says

    I’m going to explain it further:

    You point out that the AA claims are built on the framework of myth, that the adherents treat it like theology, that there’s no evidence… and then refuse to go the whole hog.

    You outright characterize their field as the result of wishful thinking, but then try to keep a door open for their factual claims. Why?

    You provide no argument for this besides “we need to beliiiiiiieve” (sure, that will go well in a forum of atheists) and “unfalsifiable claims can’t be proven to be wrong, so they could always be right” (sure, and how do we distinguish one unfalsifiable claim from another? Or are all equally true and dragons will be real if I wish hard enough?).

  67. says

    Vaiyt,

    You outright characterize their field as the result of wishful thinking, but then try to keep a door open for their factual claims. Why?

    I personally think its ok to keep that door open – as long as there is responsible research on the part of the adherents as opposed to simply wishful thinking.

    Its a notion. But those steeped in the research will claim they have “evidences” that ought to be considered. I say to them: “show me the money.” I want to see what they’ve got beyond simply a claim.

    I will admit that this stuff certainly is an outcome of “childhood fantasies,” on my part. Less than my religious faith was for me, but more than mere scifi/fantasy, this stuff intrigues me. Should I just throw out the fun and excitement of the exploring the possibilities?

  68. says

    And Vaiyt,
    That’s not as complete an answer as I could give you at the moment, as I am also doing three other things at the same time, but its a start, I hope…

  69. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    Should I just throw out the fun and excitement of the exploring the possibilities? – scottyroberts

    What you do with your time is your own affair; but stop pretending anyone else – particularly scientists – has any reason whatsoever to do likewise, or is being closed-minded, dogmatic or “religious” when they dismiss all this stuff as the pointless pseudo-scholarly wankery it is.

  70. says

    Nick Gotts,

    What you do with your time is your own affair; but stop pretending anyone else – particularly scientists – has any reason whatsoever to do likewise, or is being closed-minded, dogmatic or “religious” when they dismiss all this stuff as the pointless pseudo-scholarly wankery it is.

    I think it was you who mentioned waaaaaay back that scientists have personal beliefs that they do not bring ionto their research. That, of course, is a no-brainer.

    Can I ask you… is there anything that might be categorized as “woo” that you, personally, find intriguing?

  71. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Should I just throw out the fun and excitement of the exploring the possibilities? – scottyroberts

    Nope, but call it what it is FANTASTY. It isn’t non-fiction, which requires EVIDENCE.

  72. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Can I ask you… is there anything that might be categorized as “woo” that you, personally, find intriguing?

    NOPE, nothing but drivel, and the looneytunes folks who believe in it are boring scatterbrained twits.

  73. says

    Nick Gotts,

    NOPE, nothing but drivel, and the looneytunes folks who believe in it are boring scatterbrained twits.

    Just curious, as a scientist, do you enjoy science fiction? With your research and work, do you hsve TIME for for that stuff? haha

  74. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    I think it was you who mentioned waaaaaay back that scientists have personal beliefs that they do not bring ionto their research. That, of course, is a no-brainer.

    That is correct. Any scientist knows the easiest person to fool is themselves. So them must guard against that. Unlike you, who wants to fool themselves and think they are “deep”.

    Just curious, as a scientist, do you enjoy science fiction?

    Yes, as do many scientists. But we know it is fiction. END OF STORY. Your drivel is fiction.

  75. Ogvorbis: broken and cynical says

    scottyroberts:

    I am so glad I don’t work for you. You have been misattributing comments the entire time you have been here. Do you do this in meetings at work? Do you have any idea how annoying it is to have my (or other’s) work attributed to someone else? Look at #96 & #97 on this page of comments and tell me what is wrong, please?

    I think that I outgrew woo at about age 12 or 13. I do read science fiction and fantasy but I recognize that it really is fiction. Have for many decades, in fact.