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Sep 27 2012

Why do I despise MRAs?

Because they are narcissistic clueless psychopaths, that’s why. David Futrelle had to ruin my morning by linking to an awful, horrible post by an MRA on Reddit (two words in combination that multiply the dreadful effect of each one alone). It’s written by a smug jerk who is busily congratulating himself on how he and MRAs in general are superior beings with a greater grasp on reality than those childlike women, who are deluded by all those glossy women’s mags they read, don’t you know.

So far, so typical. But there’s a victim here, his wife. She’s quit her job to dedicate herself full time to raising their child, and he finds her weeping on the bed, overcome with stress, and feeling trapped. The whole post is about how weak she is, and how strong he is, and how he does everything for this family.

Except…well, he’s so oblivious that he tells us all about his day.

I rise in the morning, I get my daughter up, fed and dressed, I walk the dog, I put in a solid ten hours at my work to make hundred grand or so a year, then I meet my wife and daughter at the door every evening, cook dinner for us all, bathe my daughter and put her to bed, walk the dog some more and do the dishes. I do the garden, fix anything that needs fixed and take my daughter swimming once a week. In short I do just about everything.

I helpfully highlighted the important part there for you.

This guy does nothing. His wife is on non-stop baby duty all day long, while he’s off interacting with adult human beings who do not poop in their pants and expect him to clean them up, and who speak fluently of phenomena more complex than “play with me” and “feed me”. I’ve been there; I put in full-time baby care briefly while my wife finished her thesis; I’ve been in the shoes of the guy whose wife puts her career on hold to dedicate herself to raising the family even more. Child care can be rewarding, but it’s also a huge amount of stressful work.

This guy blithely tosses all the child care responsibilities on his wife for 10 straight hours a day, then claims he does everything, and can’t understand why she’s depressed and exhausted — why, it must be because she’s been reading Cosmo. Couldn’t have anything to do with her husband being a self-centered asshole.

The kicker is in the comments, where someone suggests that he divorce his useless wife (throughout, she’s faceless and with no personality at all — just another female, weeping). He says he’d rather not, and like the typical egocentric twit, goes on to explain why and removes all doubt that he’s a creep.

I’d be very unlikely to get custody of the wee one, and the damage it would do to her would be awful, I’m sure you agree. We don’t fight and our home life is stable, so I think divorce would likely make things a lot worse for her.

I don’t stand to gain much from a divorce and I’d lose a great deal. Besides, I’m nearly forty and I have a two year old. A wild life of drinking and dating isn’t likely even if we do separate!

His response is to consider it, and to weigh the utility of a divorce. I hope this woman read this and realizes that part of her problem is that she’s married to a loveless shit with no sense of empathy, who really doesn’t love her, and gets out while she can.

Man, if someone asked me why I don’t get a divorce, my response would be a disbelieving stare and the simple statement that we love each other and don’t want to be apart.

348 comments

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  1. 1
    richardelguru

    Only one quibble “adult human beings who do not poop in their pants” you don’t know this for a fact: probably depends on whether he’s their boss.

  2. 2
    kevinalexander

    There’s a joke going around.

    A man comes home to find a note on the refrigerator.

    “This is just not working. I’ve gone to my mothers”

    So he opens the door, the light comes on, the beer’s cold. What the hell is she talking about?

  3. 3
    neilweightman

    I’m delighted to say that I had to look up MRA – they have so little importance to my life.

  4. 4
    Marshall

    PZ, why do you read these subreddits that infuriate? I personally enjoy Reddit very much, and the “reddit hate” seems to be a bit of a generalization of a few loathful subreddits to the entire population. There are many wonderful subreddits on there full of intelligent, nice, and inquisitive people. I’d say the vast majority are simply groups of people with common interests.

    Personally, I enjoy r/skeptic a lot more than r/atheism, as it usually has some interesting articles/info, and isn’t all mindless religion-bashing (mind you, I love religion bashing, but not the mindless kind). As a neuroscientist and musician, I enjoy r/neuro and r/music greatly, and other related ones. From r/earthporn to r/charity, you can find a lot of great stuff on there.

  5. 5
    ryanb

    This honestly makes me feel sick to my stomach to read. Not just the behaviour of this individual and the thought of the suffering of his wife and child but also at the fact that so many will applaud him as a reasonable person.

    I don’t understand how any one in a long term relationship can be so clueless as to the needs of their partner.

  6. 6
    rq

    Can I say a huge ‘WOW’, and congratulate myself on having the sense to marry the polar opposite of this guy???
    Yes, I’m currently doing most of the child-rearing, and yes, I feel trapped a lot of the time, like time is flying by; I want to have an adult conversation, and think about something other than diapers and feeding the kids (hey, thank evolution for Pharyngula and co.!), but at the end of the day, I can say that the Dear One has my back. I can tell him I need a break, that I need him to help, and I can count on him not to feel all superior about it. Actually, he’s offered, several times, to do the stay-at-home bit himself and let me go to work (which we can’t do at the moment for purely financial reasons). And I appreciate everything he does, with no complaints or covert disapproval (ok, ok, MINOR complaints :) )…
    In fact, I think I’m going to remind him how lucky he is – I mean, I am – tonight. Once again.

  7. 7
    Tapetum, Raddled Harridan

    Such a loving husband there, finds his wife sobbing on the bed, and instead of thinking “she must have had a rough day” or “could she have post-partum depression? maybe her doctor can help”, goes straight to “she’s such a weak nobody, and aren’t I awesome!”

    I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the stuff he does around the house is done “so that she won’t screw it up.” Which takes it out of helpful mode and into hostile. My husband used to do that until I called him out on it. There is every difference in the world between having a spouse who is cleaning the kitchen because he’s loving and helpful, or even just because the kitchen needs cleaning, and one who’s cleaning the kitchen AT you, you dumb screw-up – even if they never say a word.

  8. 8
    skeptifem

    David on Manboobz pointed out how it sounds a lot like she has undiagnosed post partum depression. I wish there were some way to contact her and give her some support.

  9. 9
    Naked Bunny with a Whip

    Oh, PZ. You effeminate liberal elitists and your “love”. Pah!

  10. 10
    Lou Doench

    As a stay at home Dad I soooo feel for this jackwagon’s poor wife. 10 hours a day with a baby can break you mind in ways that this MRA dickweed can’t possibly understand.

  11. 11
    ChasCPeterson

    What the hell do women want? This guy even walks the dog!

  12. 12
    thisisaturingtest

    And when he considers the idea of divorce, all the consideration is about what it will mean and do to him (with a brief token and cliched nod in the daughter’s direction). Can ya feel the looooove?

  13. 13
    jackal

    Not to mention that, if he got a divorce and managed to win custody of the child, he’d need to pay for 10+ hrs of daily childcare – which he might start to appreciate, once he has to pay for it.

  14. 14
    a3kr0n

    Magnetic resonance angiography?
    Mountain Rescue Association?
    Massachusetts Restaurant Association?
    Men’s Rights Activists?
    Whew, that took awhile.
    Ya, my mom was like that.

  15. 15
    hexidecima

    It always makes me sad when I see one more example of someone who got married for so very little reason other than to have a trophy child and hit the marks of a supposed “successful” life.

    If this person is really doing all he claims, then his wife needs some psych help to get over the depression she seems to have. Of course, she has every right in the world to be depressed with such a Malicious Raving Asshole in the house.

    My husband and I are married 21 years and we are happy. Happily, not all men, or all humans are such jerks.

  16. 16
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Man, if someone asked me why I don’t get a divorce, my response would be a disbelieving stare and the simple statement that we love each other and don’t want to be apart.

    Love? LOVE?

    What’s love got to do with it? This is about a marriage and how he as a man is living up to his responsibilities and his wife is failing miserably at hers to be his house woman.

    Get your priorities straight.

    You people need to reassess your world view. All this concern with love and empathy when the real question is who is living up to their strictly defined roles.

    Sheesh.

  17. 17
    a3kr0n

    I probably should have said my dad was like that, but I was thinking about my mom. They’re still married BTW. she read him the riot act years ago.

  18. 18
    carlie

    I’ve been on both sides of this – I’ve been the parent who, when the other parent walks in the door, gives them a wild-eyed stare and says “You are never leaving me home with them this long alone again” in a desperate voice, and I’ve been the one who comes home exhausted after work and collapses into a useless heap only to have babies dumped on my head (figuratively) and told “I can’t take it any more it’s your turn”. Know what? The work role was by far easier.

    The best way Spouse and I dealt with it was to make an agreement that, at any time, any day that both of us were available, either one of us could simply say “I need to go out now” and just leave the house, no questions asked, for up to about three hours. So that person could go to a movie, go to the library, go out and eat real food that they didn’t have to cook, go for a drive and use up a tank of gas, whatever. The point was that it was a break where they were not accountable to anyone else, not even to report on what they did when they got home, and it got them away when otherwise a big fight might break out because they were in such a resentful and bad mood. It was probably the best thing we ever decided on to get us through babyhood/toddlerhood.

    This guy? Is an ass. And I feel very sorry for his wife.

  19. 19
    carlie

    Lou, my spouse is also a stay at home dad. I think it’s up to about 3% now. Woo!

  20. 20
    holytape

    Later on he noted that “The only things the wife does is make sure that the bills for life insurance policies are always paid on time. Which is strange, because that’s the only bill she handles. And she makes the lemonade, which has a particularly funny taste. I can’t quite put my finger on it.

    She claims that she cleans all day. But if she really is cleaning all of the time, why do we have such a rodent problem. I haven’t seen any, but every time I go shopping, rat poison is on the list.”

  21. 21
    dianne

    the damage it would do to her would be awful, I’m sure you agree.

    I do not agree. She’d probably suffer a decrease in her standard of living, as he sounds like the sort of asshole who would not pay child support gladly or at all. But she would gain the absence of an asshole who will, inevitably, ruin her life if she continues to be exposed to him. I hope the wife of this waste of oxygen divorces him before he does too much damage to his daughter.

    BTW, I doubt post-partum depression. The kid’s two. It’s more likely that she has major depression, possibly situational, possibly genetic and worsened by the fact that she’s living with a completely worthless abusive asshole. Either way, she’ll find it hard to leave him because she’s depressed and overwhelmed-and he’s doing his best to keep it that way.

  22. 22
    oolon

    Must admit that was one of the more surprising things about having kids – we have NCT antenatal classes in the UK and us blokes did all the usual things of joking about not changing nappies etc. But then at least a couple of the men there followed through and actually did not change nappies, or very rarely anyway. The argument was a bit different – they were of the opinion that they had ‘agreed’ to their wives having kids so they were justified in setting boundaries of who does what. I was surprised that these attitudes still exist and they persisted after the NCT antenatal classes as support of your partner in what is an extremely stressful time and post natal depression were well covered.

  23. 23
    Didaktylos

    If he’s working 10 hours a day on a regular basis, he either doesn’t really like going home or he’s got his fingers in the till at work. Or both.

  24. 24
    Usernames are smart

    I put in a solid ten hours at my work to make hundred grand or so a year

    Yeah, right. I’ve run into his ilk before: this man-child is horribly insecure.

    He’s also the type that would vote for a tax break for the rich because he thinks he might be one someday (ProTip: he won’t).

    Women need to avoid this type of creep like the plague.

  25. 25
    Jeremy Shaffer

    That guy’s a winner. I guess the silver lining is that, in my experience, guys like him are usually so full of themselves that almost everything they say is inflated beyond any recognizable reality. That gives some small hope that what we’re reading is just some loser railing against imagined slights, as nasty as that is, and maybe the wife in question has things in hand. Even his response to why he doesn’t divorce her is pretty cliched and face- saving on top of being contradicting.

    Still, even the fact that he’d post something liek this indicates that he probably needs help with whatever issues that he’s having.

  26. 26
    dianne

    One other point, in case the Futrelle idiot is reading: Bragging about making $100K a year is pathetic. Really, don’t do it. It just sounds like you’re extremely desperate for some sort of validation about your career. $100K isn’t enough to be impressive in and of itself as an income and mentioning it (especially mentioning it and nothing else) just makes it sound like your job is otherwise incredibly valueless with respect to any metric except how much money you’re making.

  27. 27
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Oh for fuck’s sake.

    I’m quitting my job in two weeks– I’m planning to be a stay at home mom for at least the first couple of years of DarkFetus’ life. If Mr Darkheart was such an unmitigated asshole, I’m not sure what I’d do, but I can tell you that laying in bed and crying would be high on that list.

  28. 28
    DLC

    The man’s an ass. A big dumb egocentric cretin, who can’t see anything unless it affects him directly. He says “My wife”, “My Kid” – without referring to them as individuals. They’re possessions that he debates getting rid of.
    I hope he gets what he deserves — ending his life alone with none to note his passing.

  29. 29
    alektorophile

    I have been a stay-at-home dad now for almost 18 months. That idiot is a clueless jerk.

  30. 30
    Sarahface, who is trying to break the lurking habit

    Sure, it would hurt the daughter to have divorced parents.
    Wouldn’t it hurt the daughter as much or more to grow up in a house with a mother who has untreated depression, who resents her husband, and quite possibly her daughter as well?

  31. 31
    Sarahface, who is trying to break the lurking habit

    Re-reading my above comment, I’ve put stuff as absolutes, rather than hypotheticals and worst-case scenario type stuff.
    So it should read, “Wouldn’t it hurt the daughter as much or more to grow up in a house with a mother who may have untreated depression, which could lead to her resenting her husband, and quite possibly her daughter as well?”

  32. 32
    ChasCPeterson

    the Futrelle idiot

    no–don’t shoot the messenger

  33. 33
    SallyStrange

    I wonder if this will attract the same crowd of “But men get raped too and sometimes it’s women doing it!” crowd that Crommunist’s recent post on how misogynist is not a slur did.

  34. 34
    Gregory in Seattle

    The child is two years old. If she is dealing with depression, it has gone beyond just post-partum.

    I’d be very unlikely to get custody of the wee one…. I don’t stand to gain much from a divorce and I’d lose a great deal. Besides, I’m nearly forty and I have a two year old.

    I strongly suspect that he would fight like hell NOT to have the child, so that A) he would not have to take care of another female and B) so that he could piss and moan in online MRA groups about how awful his ex wife is and how she stole his dear child from him. I also strongly suspect that his fear of the dating scene comes because he knows no decent woman would have him.

    As an aside: how do I use comic sans font on a blockquote? This idiot doesn’t deserve a normal typeface.

  35. 35
    jose

    Um, I don’t see the point of mocking her wife except plain contempt. Probably not making things better there.

    If she’s unhappy with how things are, that’s a problem that needs fixing. They should examine what she wants and what can be changed to make life better and then change it. Philosophical counseling could help.

  36. 36
    oolon

    Hmm I read the actual thread from Dave Futrelles post and for me the interesting part is that he makes a good point about the idealisation of parenthood. One of the worst things women often say about post natal depression is that they are *supposed* to be naturally motherly and have this sort of magical link to their baby and when it doesn’t happen this is devastating.

    Thing is I don’t know how he goes from there to she is supposed to get the ‘truth’ from her man! Then feminists have so poisoned her against men she cannot somehow osmotically gain this information from our well of wisdom. Seems a common thing, nutty MRA mentions something that is due to gender stereotyping and something feminists are already fighting against, then turns it to be the fault of feminists after all.

  37. 37
    doubtthat

    …my Spidey sense is tingling, don’t think he’s pulling down six figures…

    Certainly this person is horrible enough if we believe everything he says, but in my experience with these sorts of self-indulgent whiners with a victimization complex, they also, either intentionally or simply because the twisted mechanisms of their mind force such, engage in constant auto-hagiography generation.

    I deal with these folks on a semi-regular basis through family law cases. It’s astonishing the degree to which they will tell a similar story, “I do EVERYTHING, she just lays around all day, blah, blah,” then you find out that they go out drinking every night, they can barely take care of the did an hour or two without assistance, and their primary concern is avoiding child support payments.

    This dude is an asshole one way or another, but I don’t believe a single word of that post.

  38. 38
    doubtthat

    I should also add that women are not exempt from this dynamic. I have plenty of female clients with a similar victimization complex and a completely skewed perspective on their familial relationships.

    The main social dynamic, however, allows men to skip out on family duties much more easily.

  39. 39
    A. R

    Hmm, apparently this man thinks his work is difficult. Try 12 hours with institutionalized adults who do poop their pants, and cannot carry on a lucid conversation. We’ll talk about how hard he works then. Otherwise, just another male supremacist.

  40. 40
    skeptifem

    diane

    One other point, in case the Futrelle idiot is reading: Bragging about making $100K a year is pathetic. Really, don’t do it. It just sounds like you’re extremely desperate for some sort of validation about your career. $100K isn’t enough to be impressive in and of itself as an income and mentioning it (especially mentioning it and nothing else) just makes it sound like your job is otherwise incredibly valueless with respect to any metric except how much money you’re making.

    way to be classist there. 100k is better than 90% of people will ever do in the us. I think bragging about income is stupid and all (and I know people get disproportionately wealthy each half a percentage point up from 90%), but its also bullshit for you to judge what level of income is really “impressive” and what isn’t. Either wealth is something that matters about a person or it isn’t; saying you’ll only give a fuck if someone makes x amount of dollars strikes me as being really judgmental and gross.

  41. 41
    skeptifem

    @34

    I strongly suspect that he would fight like hell NOT to have the child, so that A) he would not have to take care of another female and B) so that he could piss and moan in online MRA groups about how awful his ex wife is and how she stole his dear child from him. I also strongly suspect that his fear of the dating scene comes because he knows no decent woman would have him.

    As an aside: how do I use comic sans font on a blockquote? This idiot doesn’t deserve a normal typeface.

    I’ve read that narcissistic people suddenly become very interested in getting custody once they get divorce papers. It becomes a matter of being seen as the superior parent- something that this jackass obviously cares a lot about. He wrote a whole fucking essay on how he is so much better than his wife. Letting her seem like the more competent parent would probably drive him insane.

  42. 42
    dianne

    @32: Pardon. I didn’t read carefully and thought that Futrelle was the MRA, not the person pointing to the MRA.

  43. 43
    jhendrix

    “Man, if someone asked me why I don’t get a divorce, my response would be a disbelieving stare and the simple statement that we love each other and don’t want to be apart.”

    This is the winning quote right here.

  44. 44
    dianne

    Skeptifem: A job that is interesting and socially useful and makes $20K a year is worth bragging about. A boring and socially useless or worse, damaging, job is not. There is no merit in making $100K in and of itself and that’s all this guy has to say about his job. Not that he enjoys it or that he is helping make the world a better place by it, just that he makes a lot of money by it. But it’s not enough money to be really impressive either. So I don’t think he’s successful either way-he’s not getting rich enough to be important as a rich person and he’s not helping the world by his work. So what’s to brag about? (Also trying to subtly one up him by implying that a mere female isn’t impressed by his income. Clearly, I’m not a good enough writer or enlightened enough thinker to do that without turning it into generalized classism. Sorry.)

  45. 45
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    How the in every loving fucking hell can someone see their spouse weeping and dismiss it so callously? That right there, that failure of empathy, is the ichor dripping, putrid hear of misogyny.

    His wife isn’t human to him, I suspect that no woman is and some day his poor daughter is going to find that out the hard way. And all the while this cell shredding bag of ionising stupidity will be patting himself on the back for his noble, nay, his heroic self sacrifice in the name of his family.

    That there is one such Creutzfeldt–Jacobean prion in the shape of a man in the world is bad enough, but the fact there are others empathising with this impacted, pus-filled, jaw rotting, too-late-for-a-string-on-door-handle molar is enough to make me want to dig a hole, climb down into it and drown myself in endless tears of rage and despair.

  46. 46
    Fred Salvador, Onion Jumbler

    Otherwise, just another male supremacist.

    You give him too much credit, I feel. He’s just an obnoxious self-centred whiner; if he discovers tomorrow that bringing about gender equity in society might somehow improve his life in some way I suspect he’d be all for it.

    He wouldn’t modify his own behaviour at all – he’d still consider his wife an encumberance and his daughter as an accessory of some kind – because he’s self-centred, and as such The Rules don’t apply to him, but he would spout the platitudes at least. Until such time as it transpired that gender equity in society significantly denegrates the quality of life his male privilege affords him, at which point we’re back to obnoxious whining.

  47. 47
    gussnarp

    I hope this wife (if she even exists and this is even a remotely accurate description of their life) figures out what a clown she’s married to and dumps him. Then he can post on MRA sites about how his wife got sole custody and the house and he has to work ten hours a day only to have half his paycheck taken for alimony and child support. Marriages like this are why alimony exists, and she’d be better off with a check instead of an ungrateful lout hanging about. Of course, if he complains about that it shows what a lie his current complaint is. He could get out of this, but he wants the status symbol of the wife and kid. Or he’s just lying.

    When my wife was at home with the newborn my day went about like his, except I only put in eight hours because I felt guilty leaving my wife and infant alone for even that long. And I also did my fair share of baby duty. After she went back to work we traded childcare, and she often works nights leaving me to get the kids (two now) to bed on my own, which can be a monumental struggle. But we both realize that we’re trading off. We both have been on baby duty all day alone and we both realize that the person coming home exhausted from work is usually the less exhausted person.

    I think I, and probably PZ, get particularly pissed off at overgrown teenagers like this because we actually care about our families. I’ve never understood people I work with who have the old fashioned division of labor on child care. I knew guys who never had to get up with the baby in the middle of the night, which just astounded me. Guys who would go out for drinks after work while their wife was at home with the little ones for a couple more hours. I just don’t get it. I want to be with my wife and kids. That’s why I got married. That’s why we had kids. Guys who did it because they were afraid they wouldn’t get laid anymore if they didn’t, or because they needed to present the right image ought to have never married, let alone had kids. They should spend their evenings alone with their MRA sites, cheap porn, cold pizza, and stale beer. The fact that they don’t is how I know there is no God dispensing cosmic justice.

  48. 48
    Fred Salvador, Onion Jumbler

    EDIT: The reason obnoxious self-centred whiners like this person are not merely an annoyance, but rather an active vector for great harm, is because they tend to control a lot of society’s resources (in the form of, for example, $100,000 a year jobs doing, I’d wager, some functionary bullshit at the executive level of a corporation). Add in the whole “you’re a woman, don’t have ambitions, just get a decent husband” thing we like to lay on females and suddenly we’re in a very bad situation indeed.

  49. 49
    Eric R

    Sometimes I hate acronyms. When you use an acronym you automatically assume everyone knows WTF you’re talking about. MRAs? in my industry MRA is the Metal Roofing Alliance. Google MRA and Massachussets Restaurant Association ranks higher.

    (anyone not know what WTF is an acronym for?)

    I dont know any MRAs, to my knowledge I’ve never met a single MRA, I dont read anything written by MRAs, leastways not that I can distinguish from any other writer. I am certainly not interested in anything they might have to say.

    Even though the linked article says something about a mensrights reddit stream (I will not go to reddit myself) I might not have put two and two together.

    Thankfully the commenters figured it out and now I can ignore an obscure acronym henceforth.

  50. 50
    JDG

    Oh my fucking god… I feel dirty having read that.
    For the first 4 months of my daughters life, I was a stay at home dad. It’s a /lot/ of work. Some days, It was all I could do just to keep everything from falling apart. Back to working full time, I find I don’t take breaks anymore, because if I pause, I start to miss her so much I want to go pick her up from daycare.

    The fact that he feels /put upon/, that his wife is taking /all/ of that responsibility makes me ill.
    The guy’s a psychopath.

    Sounds like post partum. :/ Likely to continue to be untreated do to this distended piece of rectum in her life.

  51. 51
    gtown

    I’m really confused, why don’t they have an au pair (or even a normal nanny)? I’ve never met a family who actually stays home with a child considering both parents can each easily make $100k+, pay a nanny $40-50k, and still make more than simply having a single-worker income. No wonder the middle-class is crashing.

  52. 52
    okeydoke

    That guy sounds a mite sociopathic to me.

  53. 53
    gussnarp

    @gtown – Somehow that doesn’t read like sarcasm, so I have to ask, what planet are you on? How do you know both parents can easily make $100k+? Every family you know can afford a nanny or an au pair? Have you ever actually done a budget? Day care is probably an option, depending on where they live and their other expenses, but middle class people can’t afford and don’t have nannies, and never have. Maybe by Rmoney’s definition of middle class, but not by mine.

    Now if we’re asking why they don’t use day care, that’s a different question entirely. It’s possible they live in a high cost of living area and the wife just can’t find a job, or maybe never planned to have one and doesn’t have the skills to land one that pays enough. That’s the most charitable answer.

    The other obvious answer is that this clown thinks that’s her job. There’s no way his kid is going to be raised by somebody else when the mother can stay home with him. That’s the way it was on TV when he was a kid and that’s the way it’s going to be for his kid, too.

    Or he’s lying about some part (the $100k) or more of his story.

  54. 54
    kraut

    Why did this asshole even marry? Assuming he really is married and the whole post is nothing but a delusional rant.
    Why do those MRA’s even want to have a what they call relationship with a woman?
    Wouldn’t they be happier to jerk off in front of the TV or the monitor? Or do they need women to bolster their feeling of superiority – which actually shows one thing only: they are superior arseholes.

  55. 55
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Eric,
    Or you could have just clicked the link provided to find out what an MRA was.

    This has been today’s episode of Simple Answers to Simple Questions. Tune in tomorrow when we’ll discuss using popular reference sites such as Urban Dictionary!

  56. 56
    brucecoppola

    @skeptifem #41: Yep, saw that very dynamic in a divorce of two people I know well. Guy is narcissistic/controlling & had been blaming his wife for everything. Tried to claim she was an unfit mother in court to get custody. This from a guy whose fathering skills drove their eldest son to join the Army to get out of the house. He served two tours in Iraq & now has PTSD.

  57. 57
    sheila

    When my son was tiny we had a great nanny for him. Much as I loved him, I used to joke about going to work for a rest. At the time I was working as a software engineer for the Royal Greenwich Observatory, which was fun, but quite demanding. Of course I had to be careful who I told the “going to work for a rest” joke, as my boss regularly sneered about the stay at home mums slogging from coffee-shop to bar all day. He even said it to the mum with twin toddlers.

  58. 58
    Ingdigo Jump

    Ummm pointing out that 100k isn’t impressive is kinda making some of us who are struggleing with a fraction of that at a good skilled labor job feel bad

  59. 59
    timgueguen

    Besides the question of how many couples can actually generate the income to afford them nannies et al come with their own issues. Things like the fact that they’re often immigrants or guest workers who are getting paid crap salaries and find themselves subject to abuse by their employers.

  60. 60
    Blattafrax

    #51 gtown

    1) Why do you assume that the wife can automatically make more than the nanny she is going to employ? That really does make no sense.

    2) Some people still want to look after their children even though it is hard, drives them to tears and isn’t cost effective.

  61. 61
    carlie

    And he brags about the work he does taking the dog out for a walk twice a day, when from the family household point of view it’s more like he comes home, then he goes out again for another half hour to an hour. He COULD fence in his yard and then the dog wouldn’t need to be walked at all, he’d just need to do a 10-minute yard poop cleaning once a day. But that wouldn’t give him an excuse to leave the house for awhile again.

  62. 62
    carlie

    Ummm pointing out that 100k isn’t impressive is kinda making some of us who are struggleing with a fraction of that at a good skilled labor job feel bad

    I think the point was that it’s not impressive enough to justify acting like such an entitled asshole towards his wife. Not that there is an amount worth doing that to another person, but even if there were, 100k ain’t anywhere near it.

  63. 63
    roland

    Miniature Radar Altimeters?

  64. 64
    Travis

    He walks the dog? Oh horror of horrors, what an onerous duty he has taken on. It must be horrible to have to walk outside for a few minutes every day, especially after having sat about for ten hours a day.

  65. 65
    skeptifem

    I think the point was that it’s not impressive enough to justify acting like such an entitled asshole towards his wife. Not that there is an amount worth doing that to another person, but even if there were, 100k ain’t anywhere near it.

    ???? This is entirely a matter of perspective then. When you grow up/live around people making like 18,000 a year, 100K seems like a lot (because its 5x what anyone you know earns).

  66. 66
    eric

    My wife and I ‘switch hit’ the baby duty. She probably averages 3-5 days a week of stay at home work, I probably average 2-4.

    I’m not sure I agree with Carlie and PZ that the stay-at-home work is always tougher. But that doesn’t really matter. Even for the days or weeks when the stay-at-home work is not as demanding as the private sector work, its still psychologically more difficult. Its depressing to give up your professional identity, financial independence, etc. once you are used to having that. Taking care of a kid is a big sacrifice in terms of having or maintaining a professional identity. Even just doing it part time, you are probably giving up on chances for promotion, raises, that sort of thing. And for someone giving up all of their professional work for a significant chunk of time, it absolutely sucks to go from financial independence to financial dependence. I’ve hated being dependent on someone when I’ve had to do it. My wife has hated it when she’s had to do it. And, I imagine we are not particularly unusual in this respect.

    So, give a little consideration for your stay at home partner. They didn’t just get a tough job that has little adult/intelligent human interaction. They also had to leave a job and lifestyle they enjoyed to take it.

  67. 67
    carlie

    This is entirely a matter of perspective then. When you grow up/live around people making like 18,000 a year, 100K seems like a lot (because its 5x what anyone you know earns).

    Is it large enough, in your mind, to justify acting like that much of a jerk? That was the point, not whether it was objectively a large amount of money or not.

  68. 68
    Alex M Doubts Your Commitment to Sparkle Motion

    One thing I’m worried about is this: “This guy does nothing.” That’s exactly what idiots like this guy love to zero in on: any remote slight that might possess the slightest kernel of validity. I mean, if I did the things he says he does (nothing says he actually DOES them, but for argument’s sake) and someone told me I did “nothing”, I’d be irked. And one thing these guys LOVE to do is take a slight sting and turn it into a war.

    I mean, hey, the guy doesn’t do NOTHING. I’m a woman who works outside the home; that’ll take it out of you. Along with the rest of his home duties, he does at least a fair amount.

    The problem is the fact that he basically uses everything he does as a way to lord it over his wife. And I agree — raising children is harder than most anyone (even mothers themselves) give credit for. You truly do give up your life in order to be there for your children. And if a mother had been someone who had big ambitions or dreams that hadn’t been realized yet up to that point, it can be quite a shock to the system how limited your life becomes once you give birth (I remember it well). It’s a huge change, and once you add to that the fact that PPD can affect even the most jubilant of new parents, a few huge crying sessions here and there sounds as right as rain to me. It happens.

    But this dicklord’s first thought is how much better he is than his wife, thinking only in terms of what she can do FOR him rather than supporting her through a big life change they’re supposed to be going through together? What an utter shithead.

    I don’t mind people who are young at heart, who are “big kids”, and I don’t look down on folks who opt to remain unmarried and childless because they don’t want the obligations/responsibilities. All of that is fine. But when adults act like petulant, spoiled only-children who never grew up and realized that the world is neither fair, nor does it revolve around them, I get so stabby. And that’s essentially the very template of your typical MRA.

  69. 69
    Eric R

    I did read David Futrells post linked above and nowhere in it does he say this reddit post was from a Mens Rights Advocate.. “a Men’s Rights Redditor” or MRR certainly.. but the word Advocate certainly doesnt appear anywhere in it.

    Mens Rights Asshole – ok fine I could have divined that, but I see no reason to assume that the git in question (nigglereddit)is actually an advocate of anything other than dickishness.

    I must note the acronym MRA does occur in the tiny tags at the end of the blog post.

  70. 70
    Nepenthe

    He walks the dog? Oh horror of horrors, what an onerous duty he has taken on. It must be horrible to have to walk outside for a few minutes every day, especially after having sat about for ten hours a day.

    He has to deal with shit! Pick up the dog’s shit! How disgusting and emasculating!

    I bet his layabout wife never has to deal with shit!

  71. 71
    Dhorvath, OM

    I see no reason to assume that the git in question (nigglereddit)is actually an advocate of anything other than dickishness.

    MRA is not an assumed title, but one of derision for people who think men have it hard. As this Reddit poster appears to believe.

  72. 72
    chigau (違う)

    The Wife and Daughter spend 10 hours per day in a state of suspended animation while The Man of the House is at work.
    Nothing really happens while He is away.
    The Real stuff happens only while He is present.

  73. 73
    carlie

    Maybe his wife should make a tape recording of every time the child cries/whines/tantrums during the day, and then make him listen to the entire thing before he can go to bed.

  74. 74
    chickadee

    I could be that wife, except my kids are older. I didn’t plan to stay home because I had a great tech career but my kids needed it. My husband is so cruel to me but I hang on since the kids are almost out of the house. I have been dealing with major depression for the last three years. He wants me where I’m weak and can’t get away but complains to/about me. I can’t change stuff in the house or do yard work because I don’t do it right. He gets something out of my despair but he insists he doesn’t because he’s not ‘happy’ either.

    I’ve done everything those conservatives want women to do and they are so mean to people like me. That 47% comment hurts me since I’m a parasite, too, in their eyes. They are ready to discard me to the streets when my breeder years are done. I think that’s why romney’s tanking in the polls with married conservative women(which I’m not). They need that safety net to be there in case they get ditched.

  75. 75
    Travis

    Wow, 72 comments and no MRA justification invasion yet. I really did not expect that, I thought someone would be explaining why she really is lazy in the first 10 comments. Have they been scared off?

  76. 76
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    On staying at home: mileage probably varies on that one. I find that staying home with my daughter is more invigorating than exhausting. As much as I love my job, I could easily replace it with other…ummm projects…I guess if I found myself in a position in which I didn’t need to earn money. And to be honest, interacting with other adults is by far the most tedious part of my job.

    I prefer changing undergarments, doing laundry, and washing dishes.

    I could see how a person may think otherwise, though.

  77. 77
    Chie Satonaka

    @69: It’s just surprising that regular readers of Pharyngula do not know what an MRA is at this point, considering that PZ has talked about them many times and there is a large overlap between them and the A* crowd.

  78. 78
    John Horstman

    @4: For the same reason that PZ condemns Christianity as a whole, even though the really terrible bits don’t constitute most of it. It provides a platform and institution that allows awful bile and refuses to rid itself of the problematic content. Until Reddit as a whole steps up to exorcise all of the hateful screeds, Reddit as a whole is culpable for enabling those screeds.

  79. 79
    spacklick3

    Ok, I hate to be disagreeing again but I think you missed something int he article PZ

    On his wife he says

    She had taken a year’s leave from her work for a major bank,

    and

    Two years later, she’s back at work and still miserable.

    About his own career he says

    I’d quit my job as the head of a design agency to work freelance so that I could be at home to care for both of them.

    So when you say

    This guy does nothing. His wife is on non-stop baby duty all day long, while he’s off interacting with adult human beings

    You’ve got this particular story backwards. Sounds liek the guy has given up a lot and does do a lot and the relationship is struggling.

    His point is that his wife (note only his wife not all women) has unreasonable expectations fostered by the media she reads and the general media. Yes he attributes this as a response to feminism which it in part may be.

    MRA’s say plenty of vile things, why create a mountain out of a field?

  80. 80
    Dr Marcus Hill Ph.D. (arguing from his own authority)

    Oh, FFS, what a clueless idiot. I’d always done my fair share of the stuff around the house when my wife and I came home from work, but since our son was born and she’s been on mat leave, I make sure that when I get in, I take care of him, put him to bed and then do all the other stuff like cooking and tidying the house because I know that however hard my day at work has been (and it’s not often that hard), hers has been more exhausting. It’s not even comparable to taking care of him at the weekend, because I always have the safety net of being able to hand him over for five minutes to go to the toilet, or call for help if he’s having a tantrum and/or throwing up all over the place, a luxury that carers alone don’t have. It doesn’t even matter if you do get help, just knowing it’s there ratchets down the stress massively. Caring for a small child alone requires your attention 100% of the time, unlike almost any other job.

    Now I’d better get off the intertoobz and go home!

  81. 81
    AJ Milne

    76/Antiochus:

    Yeah, I work in high tech…

    … so, honestly, interacting with my kids is generally an improvement.

    Okay, I’m being sort of facetious. I really do like my kids. They’re good people. But then, they’re not in diapers anymore, either, so it’s not really that great a point of comparison. And I sure as hell don’t miss the diapers. I’m not even sure I can report what that stage was like anymore… repression of trauma thing, I suspect.

    … and, in fairness to my current colleagues, many of them are also now out of diapers.

  82. 82
    oolon

    @spacklick3,

    His point is that his wife (note only his wife not all women) has unreasonable expectations fostered by the media she reads and the general media. Yes he attributes this as a response to feminism which it in part may be.

    So how is feminism responsible in any part for that? I agree he made a good point about the media and culture where women are supposed to be yummy-mummies or whatever it is called in the US… But how is that feminisms fault! He also says she should have worked this out from the men around her. But somehow feminism has poisoned her against them. Don’t see it myself.

  83. 83
    skeptifem

    Is it large enough, in your mind, to justify acting like that much of a jerk? That was the point, not whether it was objectively a large amount of money or not.

    you said there is no amount of money to justify that. I agree, and so I feel no need to discuss when assholery is justified by income. I didn’t go on to say “100K wasn’t anywhere near it”, like you decided to- the statement implies that its really not that much money at all. That was the part I was having an issue with. I see people eager to call the MRA an idiot for thinking his salary constitutes substantial wealth, or wealth worth mentioning. Lots of people consider it to be an impressive amount of money to make in a year, and they aren’t fools. They are seeing it from the experience of living on a damn lot less than that (or knowing virtually no one who earned six figures).

    I can tell you that for me, part of living without much is dealing with idiotic questions from people who have more like “why haven’t you just gotten a new one?” when things break. You are constantly reminded that everything you have in the world doesn’t amount to much of anything to other people. Over and over you get the message that your life is petty and small and bullshit to people who matter, and you’ll never get into their club. Hearing that 5x your income isn’t much adds to that sense of being small and meaningless.

  84. 84
    patrickvallely

    Still not sure what an MRA is. Based on Wikipedia, pretty sure it has something to do with mountain rescue, metal roofing, mail retrieval, or rowers in Marin, CA. Either way, they are scum.

  85. 85
    Anthony K

    His point is that his wife (note only his wife not all women) has unreasonable expectations fostered by the media she reads and the general media. Yes he attributes this as a response to feminism which it in part may be.

    Why doesn’t he marry you, you’re so eager to give him a ass-bath? What he wrote:

    I feel sorry for women. [Note: not his wife; 'women'] I really do. They [Note: not his wife; 'women'] have absolutely no way to get easy access to cold hard facts about themselves [Note: not his wife; 'women'] and their [Note: not his wife; 'women'] lives.
    Everything they’re
    [Note: not his wife; 'women'] told by the media and other women [Note: 'women' who specifically aren't his wife] is either idealised bullshit about how great it’ll all be or sentimental bullshit about how it’s okay to wallow in self-pity because they’ll be magically saved without working for it.
    And the one place they
    [Note: not his wife; 'women'] could have got their reality, the place they’re [Note: not his wife; 'women'] supposed to get it – the men in their lives, their dads and husbands and brothers and boyfriends – is the place they’ve been told most of all is totally untrustworthy, fake and even dangerous.

    So, you wanna try that again?

  86. 86
    chigau (違う)

    OK.
    I re-read the linked post.
    I think the wife goes out to work, he works from home.
    He meets the “wife and daughter at the door every evening”.
    Meaning the daughter also spends her days elsewhere.
    Who is doing “everything”?
    —–
    (He also thinks that the mommy-world stuff is fantasy and his macho-shithead-world is reality.)

  87. 87
    Anthony K

    (He also thinks that the mommy-world stuff is fantasy and his macho-shithead-world is reality.)

    Well, he is a graphic designer.

  88. 88
    kc9oq

    If you don’t get results from Wikipedia try urbandictionary.com

  89. 89
    tomfrog

    And the one place [women] could have got their reality, the place they’re supposed to get it – the men in their lives, their dads and husbands and brothers and boyfriends [...]

    Yeah because you know, for centuries they did just that and it turned out so well for them.

  90. 90
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Hmm. What does MRA stand for? I could follow the link in the post, or I could complain that this has nothing to do with a magnetic resonance angiogram.

    Oh, look. I clicked on the link and I see all this talk about misogynists and men’s rights. Men’s…Rights… MRA… Oooh, look, you can find an article on men’s rights if you search Wikipedia for MRA.

    I think…I think there’s a connection here…?

  91. 91
    Anthony K

    More gold:

    It’s worth it man. When she wakes up crying in the night it’s me she cries for and when she wakes up in the morning (at five thirty, naturally) it’s me she yells at to get up.
    Of course, now I worry about how she’ll grow up with her father as her main role model. Its not something that’s been tried much, for the reasons above. Could be an interesting future.

    A girl with a daddy for a role model? What’ll they think of next? Horseless carriages? Flying machines?

    O Brave New World.

  92. 92
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Hopefully flying horses

  93. 93
    Anthony K

    And on Saturday she meets with her friends, and they have coffee, and they all lie through their teeth about how successful and happy and content they all are, before going back to guys like me and living the exact opposite.

    Talks about his partners’ friends like that.
    Sees himself and his gender as the arbiters and gatekeepers of reality.

    This guy is controlling. It’s a warning sign.

  94. 94
    Anthony K

    Hopefully flying horses

    Who don’t even place at Olympic dressage competitions?

    *Snorts*

    [Then whinnys, whickers, and snacks on some oats.]

  95. 95
    sireccles

    Clear signs of post partum depression.

    I just wanted to share my recent experience with being a new dad and post partum depression because I don’t think it is talked about enough.

    I probably should have spotted the signs earlier, halfway through the pregnancy when she kept breaking down being worried that it would all fall on her, the expectations, the work, the day to day. No matter how much I promised to be there and help out, it didn’t seem to calm her down, her midwestern upbringing and the expectations of such a society (that the men don’t do anything to do with babies) was too much.

    So about 4 months ago, our son was born. Yay. We both work from home, she was on a break from work, I took two weeks off. He didn’t sleep more than 45 minutes at a time. We couldn’t sleep with him in our room. We took shifts through the night to look after him. Eventually she had another break down. I offered to watch throughout the whole night to let her sleep properly. It helped for a day then she broke down again. I was essentially doing everything bar the breast feeding which she did sitting there a glum sad look on her face.

    She had withdrawn so much she was pushing away help from friends and family. I eventually convinced her to talk to someone. Her step mom and I convinced her to seek professional help. Thankfully our midwife was great and managed to fit her in the next morning. Recommended a therapist to talk to, prescribed some antidepressants.

    What we later found out is that the whole episode was exacerbated by chemical/biological things in the body (i.e. not her fault). Thyroid meds which had been balanced throughout the pregnancy were now too high of a dose, anxiety. A blood test revealed a genetic deficiency in processing B vitamins, tiredness unable to function, poor serotonin processing. She now takes methylated B vitamins.

    We also got a night nanny a few nights a week, expensive godsend. Starting daycare also helped because yes, entertaining a newborn all day is effing hard work.

    I later found out she had been thinking about abandoning him back at the hospital, self harm and even suicide. Thankfully we got help in time and she is on the road to recovery but I don’t want to think what might have happened had I not been there to help.

    This guy is a jerk.

  96. 96
    oolon

    @Skeptifem,

    Hearing that 5x your income isn’t much adds to that sense of being small and meaningless.

    That’s a shame, one thing I’ve learnt is that as I’ve earnt more I’ve not felt richer than when I earnt a massive £6k a year as a student. I just about had enough to go out whenever I liked (50p a pint!) and have fun with my friends. Your work/job is the important thing – I earn a lot more now – but if I hated my work I don’t think it would be worth it.

    If you measure your worth by what you earn then you’ll never be happy is I think the point Dianne was trying to make. The 5x thing is nothing when you compare what he makes to Warren Buffets annual income of $100mil+/yr for example :-)

  97. 97
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Hmm. What does MRA stand for? I could follow the link in the post, or I could complain that this has nothing to do with a magnetic resonance angiogram.

    Obviously, its “obscure” because I, personally, haven’t heard of it.

  98. 98
    chigau (違う)

    Brownian
    Are you actually reading all the comments.
    You are braver than I.
    (must be that Y chromosome-thingy)

  99. 99
    dianne

    Hearing that 5x your income isn’t much adds to that sense of being small and meaningless.

    Ask a congressperson-Republican or Democrat-what “middle class” is if you want to feel underpaid some time. IIRC, the standard answer was that $115K or so was “lower middle class” and $150K or so was “middle class”. That’s who they’re talking about helping when they talk about “helping the middle class”.

    But in this context, I don’t think the number even matters. The MRA is clearly impressed with himself at his ability to make more money than his wife makes staying home with their child and is using his “six figure income” as a stick to beat her with. I’m willing to accept the criticism that I was being rude, crude, and/or classist to mention it, but not that his income justifies his being an asshole to his wife. Also, if you’re going to brag about how important your job is, you should brag about the job, not the income. The income is irrelevant.

  100. 100
    spacklick3

    @oolon Post 82

    I think people over-react to sensitive topics. One of the first responses to a problem of racism within a community is for people to become excessively race sensitive and you ge tthings like school teachers discussing if it’s ok to use the term black-board because it has black in it.

    One of the reactions to feminism could be a swing away from displaying any negative in relation to women, even where that negative is neither false nor sexist. I haven’t remotely looked into any data on it so I couldn’t say, it’s just a reasonable possibility.

    @Brownian Post 85

    Ok, he has made that comment below, but eveyrthing in the article (which I read) as opposed to the comments (which I didn’t) relates explicitly to his wife and her life.

    That comment is horrific sexist bull, the original post…not so much.

  101. 101
    mythbri

    Yeah, I can see how feminism would disabuse women of the notion that “the one place they can get the truth about their lives” is from the men in said lives.

    Gag. What an asshole.

  102. 102
    dianne

    Sadly, I bet I can predict this kid’s future: The parents will finally divorce, maybe because the wife wises up or maybe because the MRA husband gets bored and walks out. He’ll never pay child support but will swoop in every few months with presents and exciting outings. She’ll see him as a hero. And he’ll never get what he deserves for neglecting her and abusing her mother.

  103. 103
    Nick Gotts

    This guy blithely tosses all the child care responsibilities on his wife for 10 straight hours a day – PZ

    Actually, it’s deducible that someone else (neither him nor his wife) now looks after their child: his wife is back at work outside the home, while he does “10 solid hours” as a freelance – which he couldn’t do if he was looking after a 2-year-old, at least, not without administering considerable quantities of laudanum.

    This does not, of course, make him any less of an arsehole, or justify him in placing the blame for his wife’s misery on women’s magazines, let alone feminism.

  104. 104
    Chie Satonaka

    @79:

    He also claims that women should rely on the men in their lives to give them their “reality.” It’s a clear call to go back to the wonderful days where the man was the head of household and the woman achieved her social status, her self-worth, and her very identity through him alone.

  105. 105
    Anthony K

    Your work/job is the important thing – I earn a lot more now – but if I hated my work I don’t think it would be worth it.

    That’s important, but don’t forget the work/life balance too (as trite and stupid as that sounds).

    I have relatives who do quite well for themselves financially, but they pay for it in terms of their free time. They’re forever having to attend this or that function, hobnob with business connections, golf with the CEO and his wife, that kind of thing.

    I don’t get the sense that they don’t enjoy it, but I know I couldn’t. I don’t mind socialising in the least, and I’m always meeting new people and making new acquaintances, but I do it at the pub, and tend to really like the fact that I can more or less dictate when and if I feel like going out.

  106. 106
    mythbri

    @spacklick3

    One of the reactions to feminism could be a swing away from displaying any negative in relation to women, even where that negative is neither false nor sexist. I haven’t remotely looked into any data on it so I couldn’t say, it’s just a reasonable possibility.

    Dude. (Probably, anyway.) Feminism isn’t about making women immune from criticism. Women are people, and imperfect, just as men are people, and imperfect.

    But your damn right if you think that you’re going to get a feminist reaction if you criticize and demean women as a category of people, as this asshole has done.

  107. 107
    Hairhead, whose head is entirely filled with Too Much Stuff

    The guy’s an unempathic jerk; and his wife ought to divorce him. His attitude of sneering superiority and contempt is inexcusable, and likely predates both the child and the marriage.

    But the issue of working vs. staying at home is present for all couples. And sometimes, despite love and the best of intentions, the spouse who’s away from the home really DOESN’T GET IT.

    When my son was born, I took the decision to stay at home with him, while my wife went back to work. This was a mutual decision, supported by both of us. Our son turned out to have autism, undiagnosed for several years. My wife would come home after work, after our child was tired and sleepy from being up all day and say, “You have such a good relationship with him, he’s so easy to take care of.”

    And I would breathe deeply and explain that she never saw the titanic battles of will between us (anyone who has done baby/infant/toddler/childcare will know what I am talking about). This wasn’t hugely bad, but it was irritating.

    Now, due to various circumstances, she is staying at home while I am out working. Our son is 13 and puberty/teenagerhood (yahh!!) has just begun, and she is now seeing how difficult the balancing act is between “I love you my beautiful child” and “How did I raise this self-centred creep?”

    And we talk together about how we can continue to work together and raise him to be a good and functional person. Life never stops teaching us lessons.

  108. 108
    iknklast

    PZ – slight problem with this: “This guy does nothing.”

    This is a horrible, and inaccurate statement. And it can come back to haunt those of us women who work outside the home, and actually believe we’re putting in work during that time. I know during my 10 hour work day, I work very hard, and then I go home and have plenty waiting for me to do – the situation of many women. My sisters, who are stay home mothers, have always claimed that those of us who work outside the home have an “easy” life. Nothing could be further from the truth, and this statement effectively reduces women who are holding down full time jobs to the same status – we’re only working while we’re wiping noses and changing diapers. Please, retract this, or qualify it a bit. It’s insulting to all workers, and particularly for women, who are struggling to get some acceptance if we step outside the baby machine world.

  109. 109
    Markita Lynda—threadrupt

    Actually, if he’s claiming to work ten hours and takes a lunch hour and has a modest 30-minute commute, he’s leaving her with the child-care responsibility for twelve hours a day.

  110. 110
    Anthony K

    I think people over-react to sensitive topics. One of the first responses to a problem of racism within a community is for people to become excessively race sensitive and you ge tthings like school teachers discussing if it’s ok to use the term black-board because it has black in it.

    Yes, because this book wasn’t a satire or anything, but a reflection of what was really happening.

    In other words, you’ve just written a big ol’ load of bullshit.

    One of the reactions to feminism could be a swing away from displaying any negative in relation to women, even where that negative is neither false nor sexist. I haven’t remotely looked into any data on it so I couldn’t say, it’s just a reasonable possibility.

    No kidding? You haven’t done any real research? I’d never have guessed.

    Ok, he has made that comment below, but eveyrthing in the article (which I read) as opposed to the comments (which I didn’t) relates explicitly to his wife and her life.

    That comment is horrific sexist bull, the original post…not so much.

    Oh, fuck right off.

    This is a story about reality. It’s a little long but I wanted to say it to you.
    When my daughter was only a few months old, I stumbled to bed to grab a few hours’ sleep before the next feed and found my wife sitting on the edge of the bed, weeping silently and inconsolably in utter despair. I was distressed, what could be wrong?
    Between sobs, she told me how awful she was finding life with the baby and cried, “I just didn’t expect to feel so trapped”.
    I was taken aback. She had taken a year’s leave from her work for a major bank, a stressful job I knew she didn’t miss in the slightest. I was providing everything; in fact I’d quit my job as the head of a design agency to work freelance so that I could be at home to care for both of them. I was already successful; we lacked nothing.
    So how could she possibly feel trapped? What had gone wrong?
    As we talked and her tears subsided, it became clear. Those of you who have kids will know that the first little while is tough, unglamorous and grinding. But what my wife had expected was this. She’d been trained by years of rhetoric to believe that motherhood would be a beautiful, tranquil paradise entirely composed of moments like this. The screaming, shitting monster who allowed us three hours’ sleep a night was something she was totally unequipped to deal with.
    And that’s a pattern which has continued ever since. Two years later, she’s back at work and still miserable. She’s successful, but at the cost of not seeing much of our daughter. She’s put on weight and she’s bone tired at the end of the day. Every part of her life is a protracted battle against what she was led to expect in the face of reality. And on Saturday she meets with her friends, and they have coffee, and they all lie through their teeth about how successful and happy and content they all are, before going back to guys like me and living the exact opposite.
    But where did she get these expectations?
    It’s simple. She got them from magazines, TV programmes, movies and books. She got them from media which are perpetually under the cosh of feminism and don’t dare mention anything derogatory about women, least of all the often grim reality of early parenthood. And God help anyone who says that women might find it horribly hard or (whisper it quietly) not be up to the task and fail.
    She was brought up on a steady diet of garbage. She was told that she could be a mother who was not just slim, fit, healthy and beautiful, but she could have a stellar career with all the money and prestige attending it. A job lot, sold by a society which isn’t allowed to sell the truth any more.
    And what about me? And what does this have to do with men’s rights?
    Well, I was not brought up on this stream of uncontested nonsense. I was brought up by the men in my circle of friends and family. When I told my dad I was to be a father his sole comment, and this from a man who rarely swears, was, “That’s hard fucking graft that. Best get your arse screwed on boy”. The men in my life and the men’s rights web sites I read have never been short of brutally honest about the reality of how my life, work and especially my relationship with my wife would be. They don’t lie to me and so I don’t lie to myself.
    I rise in the morning, I get my daughter up, fed and dressed, I walk the dog, I put in a solid ten hours at my work to make hundred grand or so a year, then I meet my wife and daughter at the door every evening, cook dinner for us all, bathe my daughter and put her to bed, walk the dog some more and do the dishes. I do the garden, fix anything that needs fixed and take my daughter swimming once a week. In short I do just about everything.
    At the end of the day, I am tired too. But I don’t whine about it, I don’t feel trapped, and I don’t ask for or get a single shred of recognition for what I do – and I sure as hell don’t get any affection or thanks from my wife, struggling as she is under the weight of her own terrible burden.
    I can do this because you told me to expect it.
    Yes, you.
    You and men like you. The importance of men’s rights is not just to oppose the frankly horrible reality we often find ourselves in. It’s not just to work to change that reality. It’s also to continually and tirelessly present reality exactly as it is instead of bullying the media into presenting a fantasy which leaves us unprepared to face our lives.
    And for that – for that, I thank you.

    Not so much sexism in that? The idea that her depression has everything to do with her silly little princess’s expectations which she wouldn’t have had if she’d talked to a man?

    “Well, I was not brought up on this stream of uncontested nonsense. I was brought up by the men in my circle of friends and family.”

    This is not so much sexist?

    ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING?

    What the fuck is wrong with you? If you don’t know what you’re talking about, then shut the fuck up, asshead.

  111. 111
    dianne

    I was already successful; we lacked nothing.

    I think this line, from the MRA’s reddit, sums up the problem. He thinks that as long as he is successful, everything’s great. He has no understanding of the fact that taking a year off will damage his wife’s career, will make it harder for her to be taken seriously at her work when she goes back, and may make it impossible for her to ever “succeed” in the way he says he has. But as long as HE is successful, in his mind, they lack nothing. No understanding at all of the fact that maybe she wants to have her own success.

  112. 112
    Pteryxx

    Maybe he can buy his wife some consideration and respect.

  113. 113
    chrismorrow

    From the original article, quoted by holytape:

    And she makes the lemonade, which has a particularly funny taste.

    They have a dog, right? Here’s me hoping against hope that, well…

  114. 114
    Hairhead, whose head is entirely filled with Too Much Stuff

    Brownian, I have not bothered to go to Reddit and read all the tripe. I thank you for doing so, because those paragraphs filled with self-centred lies and contempt, and the following “Right on, bro!” in the comments would have surely turned my stomach. In fact, my stomach is churning right now.

    There are way, way, way too many of these assholes around (one of my younger brothers, for example).

  115. 115
    mythbri

    @Brownian

    You know what the irony is? Even if Mr. Asshole were right about his wife being such a weak-willed creature that she has some kind of media/magazine fantasy of motherhood (which he is not), that media is not produced in a vacuum. It’s produced in a kyriarchy, and more specifically, a patriarchy. The bullshit he thinks she’s getting from media and the “truth” she’s supposed to get from him and her father are coming from exactly the same place.

  116. 116
    Amphiox

    The creepitude here goes up even another magnitude as it is rather quickly obvious that this jerk’s wife was suffering from post-partum depression, and he’s essentially ragging on someone who’s clinically mentally ill.

  117. 117
    Anthony K

    So how could she possibly feel trapped? What had gone wrong?
    As we talked and her tears subsided, it became clear. Those of you who have kids will know that the first little while is tough, unglamorous and grinding. But what my wife had expected was this. She’d been trained by years of rhetoric to believe that motherhood would be a beautiful, tranquil paradise entirely composed of moments like this. The screaming, shitting monster who allowed us three hours’ sleep a night was something she was totally unequipped to deal with.

    “What I’d failed to realise is that, as a woman, her brain was full of idiocies. If she’d been raised by men like my father, Mr Swallowyerfeelins McLaconic, she’d have learned that emotional demonstration is for pussies. Nonetheless, now that I’ve realised that a vagina is always surrounded by a balloon of dumb, I’ve taken over the child-rearing responsibilities. I change the dog three times a day and walk my daughter, and I couldn’t be happier.”

  118. 118
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Where does he get those extra special 36 h days? I want them, too!
    Let’s look at it: He puts his daughter to bed.
    8pm is a reasonable time for that, given that she’s 2. The actual time doesn’t matter much since they sleep some solid 12 hours at that age anyway.

    Start fixing things: 9:30
    Do dishes: 9:00
    Walk dog: 8:30
    Bedtime: 8:00
    Bathing: 7:30
    Dinner: 7:00
    Cooking: 6:30
    Commuting: 6:00
    Work starts: 8:00
    Leave home: 7:30
    Walk dog: 7:00
    Wake daughter: 6:30
    Now, even if you assumed that the 30 minutes I gave him for all the tasks were somewhat realistic, the poor kid is permanently lacking 90 min sleep and he can’t get much more than 4 hrs a day.
    Poor guy…
    And then there’s the days he takes the kid swimming…
    Some smart people might have noticed that his everything is missing a few crusial things…

  119. 119
    dianne

    Gileill: I’m pretty sure what he means is “I put my daughter to sleep one night this week and got her up one day last week.” I seriously doubt he actually does all the things he claims every day. Just not probable. But did it once two weeks ago…that’s plausible. He just doesn’t notice that his wife did it the other days.

  120. 120
    dianne

    The sad thing is, he probably means it. He probably genuinely believes that he does most of the child care when all he really does is walk the dog once a month and maybe change a diaper once a semester.

  121. 121
    Markita Lynda—threadrupt

    OK, so he’s working at home and she has to drop the child off to daycare, work her eight or nine hours and pick the child up by closing time (with a dollar a minute penalty for being late). There’s still a real sense of entitlement breathing off those words.

    @7: “There is every difference in the world between having a spouse who is cleaning the kitchen because he’s loving and helpful, or even just because the kitchen needs cleaning, and one who’s cleaning the kitchen AT you, you dumb screw-up – even if they never say a word.”

    Quoted for Truth (QFT).

    As far as being on child-care duty, it’s stressful not to have anyone to hand off to and doing it week after week makes one desperate to see another adult face.

  122. 122
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Eric:

    I did read David Futrells post linked above and nowhere in it does he say this reddit post was from a Mens Rights Advocate..

    1) In an established blog like Man Boobz, there’s a certain assumption that you either know or can figure out an acronym. It would be tedious to explain it in every post (and, you know, defeat the purpose of using acronyms in the first place).

    And

    2) But since it does use a highly specific set of acronyms, every page of Man Boobz has a link to the glossary. All it takes is a few seconds to look.

    And so concludes today’s episode of Slightly More Involved Answers to Simple Questions. Join us tomorrow as we tackle the subject of Glossaries! How the fuck do they work?

  123. 123
    opposablethumbs

    Having read #110 I realise that this bloke has it incredibly easy.

    He’s got the house to himself for 10 hours a day. The daughter is out – presumably at daycare or similar – and his wife is out at work; he’s working from home. No commute, no-one breathing down his neck, no-one telling him what to do when.

    And he strongly implies that the family’s financial situation is entirely thanks to him – what, his wife isn’t earning now?

    And he has the nerve to complain just because (he claims) he’s pulling his weight in the evening? After she gave up a year or two of contact at work, with the consequent effect on her career.

    Who pays for daycare? Does it come out of both salaries equally … or just out of hers?

    Who drops everything and shoots over to the daycare location when their daughter is ill/has an accident/needs a parent unexpectedly? Well he says he “meets them at the door”, so all we know is that he’s not the one who normally picks her up.

    And she’s miserable, in his opinion – so what’s his response? Try to find a way to help … ? Nope, just yell about how weak she is and how it’s all her own fault for wanting to have a life of her own outside parenthood.

    What a prince.

  124. 124
    chigau (違う)

    He works from home.
    His wife goes out to work.
    His daughter spends her days elsewhere.
    “I meet my wife and daughter at the door every evening”

  125. 125
    G Pierce (Was ~G~)

    Warning- highly speculative thoughts unbecoming of a skeptic. (This only applies if he’s not just a psychopath.) I think his whole story is self-delusion to justify to himself why he is not the asshole here as well as fibs to impress his MRA buddies. Probably what happened is he came home, saw his wife sad and ANGRY, freaked out and powerless. Maybe she told him off and let him have it. Then he started worrying that she’d divorce him (perhaps subconsciously). These guys are all emotionally labile themselves. Because yes, uncontrollable RAGE does count as an emotion!

    Guys like this probably desperately need their wives for emotional support like a baby needs a blanky (as opposed to actual love between two adults) and they know it. And I’ve heard of a ton of studies that show while women suffer financially after divorce, men often lose their *only* emotional support. Here’s one I found easily.

    As for the kid, he may truly worry about that, especially if he believes all those MRA articles on how nice, normal, unabusive men who fight for custody never get to see their children again. However, I doubt he’d want the work part of custody. That would mean less time for circle jerking on Reddit. Maybe a nice sippy cup of sticky juice would bust open onto his computer.

    And didn’t this guy ever watch Mr. Mom? Michael Keaton’s wisdom didn’t sink in? :D Seriously- Elizabeth Rapoport summed it up nicely long ago.

  126. 126
    chigau (違う)

    If he spends 10 hours per day “working” on his computer, alone, how much of that time is spent gaming and commenting on blogs?

  127. 127
    Anthony K

    Having read #110 I realise that this bloke has it incredibly easy.

    Look, as someone who suffers from depression, I know we’re not always easy to live with. So I’ve no doubt this fellow’s life is not perfect. But his attitude towards his wife’s depression is not going to improve things in the least.

  128. 128
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Eric,
    I’m also amused that you note that ‘MRA’ is used to tag the Manboobz post, but still it’s apparently not mentioned. Which is it?

  129. 129
    reliwhat

    Wow, now i know that theres a guy, somewhere, who’s an asshole! thx pz, i feel so superior to others now! its awesome!!!!!!!

    RON PAUL FOR PREZ, 9-11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB. KISS MY BALLS

  130. 130
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Wow, now i know that theres a guy, somewhere, who’s an asshole! thx pz, i feel so superior to others now! its awesome!!!!!!!

    RON PAUL FOR PREZ, 9-11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB. KISS MY BALLS

    idiot

  131. 131
    Ingdigo Jump

    If he spends 10 hours per day “working” on his computer, alone, how much of that time is spent gaming and commenting on blogs?

    Well hopefully he’s at least managed to beat the first hurdle of working from home

  132. 132
    chigau (違う)

    chickadee #74
    *hugs*

  133. 133
    suzysalaksartok

    MRAs never lie or exaggerate, all their stories are 100% true 100% of the time. So I see nothing wrong with accepting it on face value that he does everything he says he does, and his wife does nothing.

    Also, theres an epidemic of women stealing sperm from condoms to impregnate themselves to get child support.
    Women always get tons of alimony after divorcing guys, and always get custody no matter the comparative living situations or level of competency.
    Women never work for anything, except when they do, in which case it made them a bitter spinster and so she takes it out on all men.
    90% of rape accusations are false, and women will falsely accuse a man of rape as an excuse to get out of work, or falsely sue for sexual harassment to get easy money out of a company.

    Its all legit, I read it on the internet.

  134. 134
    Marshall

    @78: Reddit is simply a free speech platform that organizes things by interest. Many of the administrators disagree morally with much of the content. But for the same reason that we (well, most of us) support the right of people to say that they hate black people (even if we disagree), they allow the bad guys to speak as well.

    I don’t understand why people think of “Reddit” as a person, or a single thing. It’s not. It’s like saying you hate Gmail because someone with a @gmail.com account sent you a mean email, or that you hate posters because someone showed an offensive poster once at a protest.

    The vast majority of subreddits are great, wonderful, fun places to visit for information and stories.

  135. 135
    AJ Milne

    If he spends 10 hours per day “working” on his computer, alone, how much of that time is spent gaming and commenting on blogs?

    (Looks around furtively…)

    (/Closes Pharyngula browser…)

  136. 136
    Ingdigo Jump

    @78: Reddit is simply a free speech platform that organizes things by interest. Many of the administrators disagree morally with much of the content. But for the same reason that we (well, most of us) support the right of people to say that they hate black people (even if we disagree), they allow the bad guys to speak as well.

    Horseshit.

    Free speech is an armistice agreement from the government that the government not limit speech. Private citizens promoting shit using media they own are rightfully held accountable for promoting shit.

    Oh and let’s not forget you Reddit assholes include freespeech to mean “active crimes that violate privacy or other rights” and “child porn”

    You assholes hide behind free speech because you fetishize as some great moral good what is a practical compromise or because you’re cowards.

  137. 137
    Ingdigo Jump

    Lets get one thing clear, Reddit is NOT the ACLU that protects the rights of people regardless of intent or moral character. They are not protecting anyone from infringement or censor, they are a platform that says “meh promote what you want, we don’t give a shit. help people, hurt people, support rape victims, make rape threats, art photos, child porn it’s all the same to us”

  138. 138
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    MRAs (first page of a Google search for MRAs)::

    Q: What’s an “MRA”?
    A: Massively [W]rong Asshole. Or ‘men’s rights activist’.
    Q: Why don’t the Odd Lady want none of them in her car?
    A: MRAs are patriarchy-deniers. The ideologies of this violent and knobbish subset of the Male Dominion spring from male fear of women’s personal sovereignty, and manifest in practice as active misogyny. Men suffer, O how they suffer, at the hands of subhuman conniving bitches who seek world domination through insane women-are-human propaganda and the misguided attempt to claim their own internal organs as private property. The MRA imagines that women’s interests control and abuse him in an ever more feminized world; he erroneously sees himself as a battered victim of women’s agency, rather than what he actually is: a moron.
    The goals of the men’s rights “movement” include, but are not limited to:
    • supporting legislation that would give men an edge in child custody battles.
    • the right to hijack another human being’s personal uterus if the MRA suspects his sacred genetic material is involved in an embryo contained therein.
    • promulgating baseless claims that men are in constant danger of physical assault by legions of villainous females, and that there exists some kind of vast matriarchal conspiracy to cover this up.
    • the practice of beating up women, kidnapping her kids, going on the lam, convincing family court judges that the woman is crazy, and summarily escaping jail time.

    http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/patriarchy-blaming-the-twisty-way/mra/

  139. 139
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    I also realize that he probably has The Luggage which means the dirty laundry gets taken care of. Also somebody magically cleans the house. Shopping? Does itself

  140. 140
    Rutee Katreya

    @78: Reddit is simply a free speech platform that organizes things by interest. Many of the administrators disagree morally with much of the content. But for the same reason that we (well, most of us) support the right of people to say that they hate black people (even if we disagree), they allow the bad guys to speak as well.

    Yo last I checked saying someone shouldn’t be censored by the government wasn’t the same as offering them a fucking bully pulpit to spew their shit out from constantly.

    I don’t understand why people think of “Reddit” as a person, or a single thing. It’s not. It’s like saying you hate Gmail because someone with a @gmail.com account sent you a mean email, or that you hate posters because someone showed an offensive poster once at a protest.

    “I hate reddit because it’s a shitty place to be; the admins permit and encourage it to be a cesspool” is not “I hate posters because I saw an offensive poster once”

    At least MRAs are insignificant outside of their corner of the internet, as a movement. Doesn’t change that poor woman from dealing with that piece of shit, though :<

  141. 141
    Pyra

    Wow, the sort of attitude that I dealt with while married with children. And why I am now divorced. And bitterly, I’ll say most people actually sided with him that I did nothing and he did everything.

  142. 142
    What a Maroon, el papa ateo

    And he strongly implies that the family’s financial situation is entirely thanks to him – what, his wife isn’t earning now?

    But those are lady dollars. You know, frilly pink things that can only be used to buy frivolous stuff like shoes or food. Not manly green dollars that can be used to buy important things like power tools and ammunition.

  143. 143
    G Pierce (Was ~G~)

    I went to the origninal link and he actually complained about many things that feminists complain about (like screwed up messages to women and mothers from the media, society and even other women) and their potential harm to society, women in particular, but blames every single one on feminism. Then, instead of being angry that these messages are harmful to his wife, he concludes the feminists send these messages, then treat women like babies, but he has no sympathy for women, but it affects me therefore I’m maaaaad.

    He complained about women’s magazines and women who hide from other women how difficult motherhood is, messages that motherhood would be all bliss… I think that comes from the idea that selling women the idea of their entire self-worth should be tied into weddings and motherhood is a patriarchal one, and good business for people who profit from it.

    As for the harm of the idea of “women can have it all! (without pulling your hair out)” Perhaps some of you with better knowledge of the history of feminism can comment on that. That seems to be a nasty, unintentional side effect of encouraging women to have careers and perhaps a manipulation of that idea by society at large.

  144. 144
    carlie

    One of the first responses to a problem of racism within a community is for people to become excessively race sensitive and you ge tthings like school teachers discussing if it’s ok to use the term black-board because it has black in it.

    Citation fucking needed.

    Well hopefully he’s at least managed to beat the first hurdle of working from home

    Me: Mitchell and Webb wanking video?

    *click*

    Me: I have been around the internet too long.

  145. 145
    unclefrogy

    from far above

    >Letting her seem like the more competent parent would probably drive him insane.<

    that's not a drive that's a putt

    uncle frogy

  146. 146
    Anthony K
    Well hopefully he’s at least managed to beat the first hurdle of working from home

    Me: Mitchell and Webb wanking video?

    I’ve worked from home. I’m delighted to find I’m a cliché.

  147. 147
    Travis

    One of the first responses to a problem of racism within a community is for people to become excessively race sensitive and you ge tthings like school teachers discussing if it’s ok to use the term black-board because it has black in it.

    Citation fucking needed.

    Citation definitely needed. I would love to see the source of a story such as this. One hears about them fairly often when you listen to those that love to complain about how PC everyone is but rarely do I ever see any sort of a source listed. And when there is an actual incident it almost always seems to be a single person’s ludicrous actions being used to paint everyone else as being unreasonable.

    Actually, it really reminds me of the stories that float through Christian churches, on e-mail lists and websites with stories of supposes oppression of Christians around the world. Often they simply turn out to be made up.

  148. 148
    leonpeyre

    Right there with you PZ. My wife stays home with our kids, and I readily admit that between the two of us she has the hard job. And if she likes to watch some (yuck) American Idol in the evenings, who am I to complain? She’s earned her time off too and if that’s how she likes to unwind, more power to her.

  149. 149
    olivercrangle

    PZ Myers,

    Please read this which is a note from the human you just made an example of.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/10krdj/thanks_pz_myers_but_you_might_want_to_read_what/

    Also please note that in the past hour or so, David Futrelle has been banned from Reddit for being a spammer.

    PZ, you are why I, Jewish, liberal, three advanced degrees, cannot take Atheism + or much of modern academia seriously.

    Why would you read “manboobz” a blog that boasts not criticism, but purely mocking of a movement? Why would you read that and believe Futrelle is any way serious and not distorting what he writes?

    There was a redditor in pain and people talked to him about that pain, and some of that pain was appropriate and some of it was not.

    And you had none of the details and clearly got a lot of it flat out wrong.

    But that didn’t stop you, the skeptic, from jumping to the wrong conclusions and excoriating this human for the crime of being male.

    Is this how you act around women as they might rant against the injustices of the day in their support groups? Is this what you say about alcoholics in their recovery groups?

    Why don’t you stop reading David Futrelle and lurk or participate directly at reddit mensrights.

    We’d learn a lot and I think you would too.

  150. 150
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Oh god, it’s oliver again. *eyeroll*

  151. 151
    carlie

    What’s that I hear? It’s like a tiny, tiny violin…

  152. 152
    thinice

    What the hell is an MRA? I presume it’s not a Magnetic Resonance Angiogram.

    Sorry, can’t follow PZ’s posts unless I’m a hipster up on the latest intertubes jargon, I guess . . .

  153. 153
    Anthony K

    But that didn’t stop you, the skeptic, from jumping to the wrong conclusions and excoriating this human for the crime of being male.

    the crime of being male.

    I fucking read his post in its entirety, crangle. Read 85, 91, 93, 110, 117.

    He’s in pain? Well, why don’t you quote his father, the man who taught him to be a man then? “That’s hard fucking graft that. Best get your arse screwed on boy.” Or tell him to follow his own advice: “But I don’t whine about it”?

  154. 154
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Oliver, you are prima facie evidence A+ is needed. Your concern is noted and placed in the dumpster, where it belongs.

  155. 155
    Anthony K

    What the hell is an MRA? I presume it’s not a Magnetic Resonance Angiogram.

    Sorry, can’t follow PZ’s posts unless I’m a hipster up on the latest intertubes jargon, I guess . . .

    Or read the thread.

    But if this whole internet and Google stuff is too much for you, best if you stick to something more your speed.

  156. 156
    dianne

    So Mr. Whiny at reddit has read this thread, but is too much of a coward to come here and participate directly, but instead just goes on and on about how misunderstood he is in a forum where he’ll meet no one but supporters-especially since anyone with an opposing view is banned. Very typical.

    I’ll give oliver at least credit for being willing to show up here, though I doubt he’ll stick around to defend his dubious viewpoints. For example: “excoriating this human for the crime of being male.” What a lot of BS. Quite a number of men here have posted their own experiences about being stay at home parents or parents who truly participate in the care of their children and how hard it can be. Are they excoriated for being male? No. They are acknowledged for being decent human beings and doing good work. Because they don’t try to take all the credit when they’re doing 10% of the work. As this guy is.

  157. 157
    NitricAcid

    If I was making $100K and only had one kid, I could afford a part-time nanny.

  158. 158
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    If you measure your worth by what you earn then you’ll never be happy

    Apologies for contributing to the derail but seriously, shut the fuck up. Some of us have to measure our groceries and electricity by what we earn, nevermind the opportunities our children will have in their lives, and hearing blithe deepities from people who don’t realize there may be more to our bitterness than worth makes us want to spit nails.

  159. 159
    olivercrangle

    “So Mr. Whiny at reddit has read this thread, but is too much of a coward to come here and participate directly, but instead just goes on and on about how misunderstood he is in a forum where he’ll meet no one but supporters-especially since anyone with an opposing view is banned. Very typical.”

    Given how most people are treated around the net, given how people at this blog treat people they dislike, given how you call him Mr. Whiny, how PZ calls him a smug jerk, how Audley Z. Darkheart blows me off not with a response but merely eye rolls,

    Why would anyone jump into that?

    When you treat others like subhumans and abuse them don’t be surprised if they are hesitant to treat you as friends.

  160. 160
    thinice

    @Brownian: Oh that we could all be so cool as you. It sucks to be me . . . (BTW – it means By The Way – I DID google the term, and nothing mentioning “men’s rights’ even came up in the first page of results. So you want that I should read through 10 pages of google results before I finally discover it? Have a nice day asshole.)

  161. 161
    olivercrangle

    The thing is, you guys know this, and you complain how others treat you, and it apparently doesn’t even dawn on you that you may wish to be better.

    #greaterinternetfuckwadtheory

  162. 162
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Thinice:
    Sarcasm?

    Ollie,
    Oh wah wah wah. We’re all such meanies for hurting some poor widdle manz fee-fees. I’m soooooooooo torn up about that. D:

    And please. You’re not a liberal, so why lie about it? If I’m not mistaken, last time I peeked at your fb profile, your listed interests were Sarah Palin and “mature Latinas”.

  163. 163
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    thinice:

    What the hell is an MRA? I presume it’s not a Magnetic Resonance Angiogram.

    Sorry, can’t follow PZ’s posts unless I’m a hipster up on the latest intertubes jargon, I guess . . .

    Holy crap. Poe’s Law applies to whining about acronyms, too?

    Me@90:

    Hmm. What does MRA stand for? I could follow the link in the post, or I could complain that this has nothing to do with a magnetic resonance angiogram.

    Oh, look. I clicked on the link and I see all this talk about misogynists and men’s rights. Men’s…Rights… MRA… Oooh, look, you can find an article on men’s rights if you search Wikipedia for MRA.

    I think…I think there’s a connection here…?

  164. 164
    dianne

    Yes, the poor little man feefees. I guess they’re just too delicate for the likes of us.

  165. 165
    chigau (違う)

    “That’s hard fucking graft that. Best get your arse screwed on boy.” said in reference to fatherhood.
    What does that say about I’m-not-a-whiner’s relationship with his father?

  166. 166
    Anthony K

    @Brownian: Oh that we could all be so cool as you.

    Well, that would cut down on the amount of dipshittery I have to put up with.

    It sucks to be me . . . (BTW – it means By The Way – I DID google the term, and nothing mentioning “men’s rights’ even came up in the first page of results. So you want that I should read through 10 pages of google results before I finally discover it?

    My response to you was two sentences. If you missed the first, which was only four fucking words long—”Or read the thread”—it’s hardly anyone’s fault but your own.

    Have a nice day asshole.)

    Thanks for the wish, but I’m managing just fine.

  167. 167
    mythbri

    (SARCASM)

    Being male certainly is a crime.

    I can see the women police officers in their cruisers, batons ready to hand, slowly and methodically going down each and every street in their quest to find any men just blatantly walking around in broad daylight, as if they have nothing to be ashamed of, as if they have a right to exist. Are there no prisons? No work-houses? Something about a surplus population?

    (Close-captioned for the sarcasm-impaired.)

  168. 168
    olivercrangle

    “Audley Z. Darkheart (liar and scoundrel)
    27 September 2012 at 3:04 pm
    Thinice:
    Sarcasm?

    Ollie,
    Oh wah wah wah. We’re all such meanies for hurting some poor widdle manz fee-fees. I’m soooooooooo torn up about that. D:

    And please. You’re not a liberal, so why lie about it? If I’m not mistaken, last time I peeked at your fb profile, your listed interests were Sarah Palin and “mature Latinas”.”

    Sure, and I think I told you at the time you have no idea how parody and fake facebook profiles work.

  169. 169
    Anthony K

    Sure, and I think I told you at the time you have no idea how parody and fake facebook profiles work.

    To be fair, neither do you.

  170. 170
    vaiyt

    @149:

    Is this how you act around women as they might rant against the injustices of the day in their support groups? Is this what you say about alcoholics in their recovery groups?

    It is what we say about privileged asshats whining about perceived slights. It’s how we deal with the poor persecuted Christians, the discriminated white supremacists and the hard living super-rich.

    Boo to the freakin’ hoo.

  171. 171
    olivercrangle

    “Brownian
    27 September 2012 at 3:12 pm
    Sure, and I think I told you at the time you have no idea how parody and fake facebook profiles work.

    To be fair, neither do you.”

    You’re right I think that was the response at teh time, all of you folks lambasting me for using facebook as a source of my fake profiles, and additionally not filling out my fake profile the way you demanded I fill out my fake profile.

    I didn’t understand that then, or now.

    Beats me why some fake profiles sources are better than others and why my fake information has to be to your standards.

  172. 172
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Nic try ollie. You don’t to get to be a liberal and an MRA supporter, then retroactively say, “but it’s a joke!” For someone with three degrees (*snerk!*) you ain’t too bright.

  173. 173
    skeptifem

    If you measure your worth by what you earn then you’ll never be happy

    arg. if I said “I am sick of men basing my worth on my value as a fuck dispenser” no one would pull this shit as a response. *I* don’t value things that way, the world does, and perpetuating it causes problems for the poor and working classes. Its that feeling of talking to someone who just doesn’t *get it* about why their comment is so shitty, its frustrating as hell. It is hard to get worse than this as a response really- being poor means that you can tell, objectively, that society gives less of a shit about you than other people. There are micro aggressions associated with that, and when I bring them up people tell me not to get down on myself. jesus.

  174. 174
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Not to mention, learn to fucking blockquote, man.

  175. 175
    Anthony K

    You’re right I think that was the response at teh time, all of you folks lambasting me for using facebook as a source of my fake profiles, and additionally not filling out my fake profile the way you demanded I fill out my fake profile.

    I didn’t understand that then, or now.

    Beats me why some fake profiles sources are better than others and why my fake information has to be to your standards.

    Well, for starters, you’d do better to not accuse other people of not knowing how parody works, then.

    I’d suggest you look up Jonathan Swift’s A Modest Proposal, and try to understand that good satire requires some element of metaphor: simply repeating points that are honestly made by others is not sufficient. Swift suggested that the Irish eat their babies to parody the ludicrousness of actual proposals made at the time which he felt were similarly simplistic and unworkable. He didn’t simply repeat those proposals—he lampooned them.

    That’s what made it satire.

    What you’re doing isn’t that. It’s simply repeating what others say. Perhaps those who know you personally might chuckle because they know you don’t actually support Palin, but how would those who don’t know you be expected to know that (if that is indeed the case).

    I mean really, is this that hard for you to understand?

  176. 176
    Anthony K

    Blockquote fail, and ollie needs all the help he can get. So lemme try again:

    You’re right I think that was the response at teh time, all of you folks lambasting me for using facebook as a source of my fake profiles, and additionally not filling out my fake profile the way you demanded I fill out my fake profile.

    I didn’t understand that then, or now.

    Beats me why some fake profiles sources are better than others and why my fake information has to be to your standards.

    Well, for starters, you’d do better to not accuse other people of not knowing how parody works, then.

    I’d suggest you look up Jonathan Swift’s A Modest Proposal, and try to understand that good satire requires some element of metaphor: simply repeating points that are honestly made by others is not sufficient. Swift suggested that the Irish eat their babies to parody the ludicrousness of actual proposals made at the time which he felt were similarly simplistic and unworkable. He didn’t simply repeat those proposals—he lampooned them.

    That’s what made it satire.

    What you’re doing isn’t that. It’s simply repeating what others say. Perhaps those who know you personally might chuckle because they know you don’t actually support Palin, but how would those who don’t know you be expected to know that (if that is indeed the case).

    I mean really, is this that hard for you to understand?

  177. 177
    Ingdigo Jump

    Reddit bans people for spamming? Why isn’t that included in freespeech?

  178. 178
    thinice

    Folks, it’s time to let Brownian take over this comment thread completely. He obviously regards himself as a superior intellect and bon vivant, and loves the sound of his own “voice”. So be it . . .

  179. 179
    Ingdigo Jump

    @thince

    Go frell yourself

  180. 180
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    I vote yes, thinince, since unlike you, Brownian has wit and a thread consisting solely of his posts would probably be pretty entertaining for some time.

  181. 181
    Anthony K

    Folks, it’s time to let Brownian take over this comment thread completely. He obviously regards himself as a superior intellect and bon vivant, and loves the sound of his own “voice”. So be it . . .

    Look, you whiny little shit: you posted a smarmy comment, and I gave one back to you in response.

    But there is some truth in what you write: you’re not as cool as I am, and you’re not smart enough to recognise that pointing that out does not, in fact, insult me.

    Olivercrangle complained that nobody understood that his fake profile was actually, somehow, supposed to be parody. He then complained that he didn’t understand parody. As someone who understands parody, I corrected him.

    You’re free to keep prodding me, and you’re of course welcome to try to get others here on your side.

    In fact, I’d encourage you to do so.

    We’ll all have a little fun seeing how well that works.

  182. 182
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Thinice, your concern is noted.

  183. 183
    Hairhead, whose head is entirely filled with Too Much Stuff

    So I strolled on over to the Reddit thread noted above in post #149 and read the comments. (Ick. Ick. Ick.)

    Once again, multiple commenters, without a single dissent, say, “FTB is a hivemind. . . hivemind . . . hivemind . . . . hivemind . . .”

    Talk about utter lack of self-awareness!

    And of course, the usual slanders about PZ: hypocrisy, he can’t be a REAL scientist (scientists-are-Vulcans theory).

    And of course “MRA’s are misunderstood. And FTB’ers et al. are all saying ‘Women are superior to men.’”

    It’s like these people simply cannot imagine of a societal relationship or discourse which is not absolutely, unilaterally hierarchical.

    Oh, and of course, utter cowardice. The original commenter this is all about posted that he couldn’t find a way to contact PZ. What with the notes about his gmail account, what with his public position at a public university, what with, I don’t know, a “blog” which PZ reads the comments of every day.

    Sheesh!

  184. 184
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    We’d learn a lot and I think you would too.

    Learn?

    From an MRA?

    Surely thou art joking.

  185. 185
    Hank_Says

    Wow. What an irredeemable malignant arsehole. Hope his wife reads that manifesto of self-absorption and entitlement and responds accordingly. Y’know, it’s a fair bet his worthless arse was a contributing factor to her depression and not just the pressure of child-rearing – but I digress.

    I’m a married dad myself, but I work three days a week and spend the other two at home with my almost two year-old daughter. This is so my wife can finish medical school with minimal interruption (and minimal cost: Jr spends my three work-days in childcare). It’s a great arrangement for all concerned and in fact I see it as something of a privilege: most men my age (mid-30s) work full time and don’t get to do this; as such they miss much of their kids’ pre-school years. This MRA clown needs to shut the fuck up and realise that with a 50-hour working week he’s lucky to see his kid at all. Oh, and start appreciating what your wife does for those 50 goddamned hours (hell, she probably enjoys the relative peace and quiet, having only one self-obsessed toddler to wrangle).

  186. 186
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    thinice:

    What the hell is an MRA? I presume it’s not a Magnetic Resonance Angiogram.

    Sorry, can’t follow PZ’s posts unless I’m a hipster up on the latest intertubes jargon, I guess . . .

    I found that clicking on the link in PZ’s OP took me to Manboobz, which had a glossary page listed at the top of the page. MRA is one of the first things listed.

    Or, doing a google search for MRAs (as I mentioned earlier) turns up two hits on the first page.

    I hope this is helpful.

  187. 187
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Oliver:
    blockquote can be your friend.

  188. 188
    olivercrangle

    lockquote fail, and ollie needs all the help he can get. So lemme try again:

    You’re right I think that was the response at teh time, all of you folks lambasting me for using facebook as a source of my fake profiles, and additionally not filling out my fake profile the way you demanded I fill out my fake profile.

    I didn’t understand that then, or now.

    Beats me why some fake profiles sources are better than others and why my fake information has to be to your standards.

    Well, for starters, you’d do better to not accuse other people of not knowing how parody works, then.

    I’d suggest you look up Jonathan Swift’s A Modest Proposal, and try to understand that good satire requires some element of metaphor: simply repeating points that are honestly made by others is not sufficient. Swift suggested that the Irish eat their babies to parody the ludicrousness of actual proposals made at the time which he felt were similarly simplistic and unworkable. He didn’t simply repeat those proposals—he lampooned them.

    That’s what made it satire.

    What you’re doing isn’t that. It’s simply repeating what others say. Perhaps those who know you personally might chuckle because they know you don’t actually support Palin, but how would those who don’t know you be expected to know that (if that is indeed the case).

    I mean really, is this that hard for you to understand?

    Thanks for femsplaining to me how to fill out a fake profile to ensure that an a+ skeptical atheist feminist can understand it.

    Next time, I’ll put in emoticons and /s just for you.

    Seriously, thanks for the femsplanation.

  189. 189
    Hairhead, whose head is entirely filled with Too Much Stuff

    Well, I went over the original whining reddit thread and read all of the comments. All of them (gag).

    Just a few notes:

    1) They loooove them some sexist slurs there. PZ is a “cock” and “prick” AND a “mangina”.

    2) Now their slurs of PZ go like so:

    . . . he has been shown to be a thief (trying to withold money owed to thunderfoot for his work at ftb) . . . .

    3) Oh, they hate RW, too!

    . . he [PZ] has been part of the whole elevatorgate which if anything has been instrumental in showing just how screwy the concept of rape has become and this whole atheisim plus thing , its femitheisim ( and i hate using that term considering the other nutbag but they are as bad as each other)

    But worst of all, which I am not going to quote now, is the outrageous sexist bigotry. I mean, post after post declaring how innately *superior* men are, and how *inferior* women are. Even posts taking the 1960′s Southern attitude of “our niggers were jus’ fine ’til you Northern lib’rals came an’ riled ‘em up!” (Feminists, of course, being the Nothern liberals, and women being the niggers.)

    Be still my stomach.

  190. 190
    Anthony K

    Next time, I’ll put in emoticons and /s just for you.

    No need for that. Just make it good. People will know.

    Seriously, thanks for the femsplanation.

    See? That’s at least an attempt. Next, work on your understanding of the subject matter you’re parodying.

  191. 191
    Hairhead, whose head is entirely filled with Too Much Stuff

    Well, I went over the original whining reddit thread and read all of the comments. All of them (gag).

    Just a few notes:

    1) They loooove them some sexist slurs there. PZ is a “cock” and “prick” AND a “mangina”.

    2) Now their slurs of PZ go like so:

    . . . he has been shown to be a thief (trying to withold money owed to thunderfoot for his work at ftb) . . . .

    3) Oh, they hate RW, too!

    . . he [PZ] has been part of the whole elevatorgate which if anything has been instrumental in showing just how screwy the concept of rape has become and this whole atheisim plus thing , its femitheisim ( and i hate using that term considering the other nutbag but they are as bad as each other)

    But worst of all, which I am not going to quote now, is the outrageous sexist bigotry. I mean, post after post declaring how innately *superior* men are, and how *inferior* women are. Even posts taking the 1960′s Southern attitude of “our coloured folks were jus’ fine ’til you Northern lib’rals came an’ riled ‘em up!” (Feminists, of course, being the Northern liberals, and women being the coloured folks.)

    Be still my stomach.

  192. 192
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Thanks for femsplaining to me how to fill out a fake profile to ensure that an a+ skeptical atheist feminist can understand it.

    Next time, I’ll put in emoticons and /s just for you.

    Seriously, thanks for the femsplanation.

    Wow, yeah. Your liberal mindset is just radiating off of you like the heat of the sun.

  193. 193
    Anthony K

    Here: Wikipedia has an article on parody. Read it. See if you can spot the differences between parody and what you do.

  194. 194
    olivercrangle

    “No need for that. Just make it good. People will know.”

    I can tell that self awareness has never been a virtue of yours.

  195. 195
    spacklick3

    Dude. (Probably, anyway.)

    Interesting, why probably?

    Feminism isn’t about making women immune from criticism. Women are people, and imperfect, just as men are people, and imperfect.

    And I never said feminism was about making women immune from criticism. Just like equal rights movement wasn’t about making the word black banned in all circumstances. People over-react to stimuli like teachers worrying about using “blackboard” incase they seem racist.

    But your damn right if you think that you’re going to get a feminist reaction if you criticize and demean women as a category of people, as this asshole has done.

    I agree he has done in the comments, but I don’t think you can say his original post demeaned women, just bemoaned his wife.

  196. 196
    Anthony K

    I’ll come up with some examples:

    I can tell that self awareness has never been a virtue of yours.

    Not bad. You’re getting better. That’s what we call deadpan.

    But you still seem unclear on the difference between parody and what you do. I see that you’re making an allusion to the Twilight Zone character, but that doesn’t really have much to do with the content of your page. Again, it’s not quite parody.

    Here are some (albeit weak) examples, but they should illustrate the problem with your Facebook profile:

    Parody: Claiming you support an actual lipstick-wearing pitbull dog named Sarah Tailin whose platform aligns with the “T-Bone Party.”

    Not parody: Claiming you support Sarah Palin when you don’t.

    Parody: Creating a superhero named ‘Strider-Man’ who, unlike Spider-Man, can barely walk on flat surfaces, since his feet extrude a slippery substance, having been bitten by a radioactive waterstriders.

    Not parody: Calling yourself Dave when your name is actually Mark.

    Parody: Responding to your parents’ request to take out the garbage by bringing it to a movie and buying it a soda.

    Not parody: Not taking out the garbage and saying you did.

  197. 197
    mythbri

    @spacklick3

    Interesting that you selectively chose to respond to my comment, instead of all the others asking for a citation regarding your assertion that people are debating whether the word “blackboard” is racially insensitive because it contains the word “black”.

    In fact, in your comment you admit that you’ve done next to no research regarding the claims within, so why should anyone here listen to what you have to say?

  198. 198
    Rutee Katreya

    Heehee, femsplaining. I truly, truly adore their weak attempts to ape feminism. I forget what context the observation was originally made but it’s such fun tow atch them do things because feminists do it, and they’re TOTES MCGOTES A REAL SOCIAL JUSTICE MOVEMENT GUYS.

    Just like STormfront.

  199. 199
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    In fact, in your comment you admit that you’ve done next to no research regarding the claims within, so why should anyone here listen to what you have to say?

    QFMFT

  200. 200
    knighttyme

    I find the later comment in the thread to be problematic if for no other reason than the fact that he should want to stay in this relationship because he loves his family. Focusing on custody issues just makes it appear that he would try and end things if he felt the outcome in court would be favorable. That isn’t a very sympathetic position.

    This being said, I’m not sure most people here are reading the same original post that I am reading. In particular, everyone is suggesting that he is making light of child care duties. However it doesn’t seem like that could be further from the truth. Here is a quote directly from the original entry:

    “Those of you who have kids will know that the first little while is tough, unglamorous and grinding.”

    This admission doesn’t suggest that he believes child care of an infant is a breeze.

    He may have a myriad of flaws, but acting like taking care of children is a walk in the park doesn’t appear to be one of them.

  201. 201
    imthegenieicandoanything

    In a just world, he’d be knee-capped and have his tongue cut out,..

    … or do I sound too hostile?

  202. 202
    vaiyt

    Thanks for femsplaining to me

    Sorry, but I doubt “femsplaining” is going to be the new “reverse racism”.

  203. 203
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    Stop trying to make femsplaining happen! It’s not going to happen!

  204. 204
    kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith

    In a just world, he’d be knee-capped and have his tongue cut out,..

    … or do I sound too hostile?

    No, that’s actually pretty mild.

    I’m thinking blowtorch, starting with his little toe.

  205. 205
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Learn?

    From an MRA?

    Surely thou art joking.

    I have learned shitloads from MRAs. From the silencing effect of gendered insults to the importance of speaking out for human rights, MRAs have shown me just how shallow and inhumane my world view was just a few years ago.

    Not the lesson I think that MRAs would want me to learn, but I did learn.

    I’m thinking blowtorch, starting with his little toe.

    As long as you don’t burn off his penis. After all, no penis = worthless.

  206. 206
    kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith

    Stop trying to make femsplaining happen! It’s not going to happen!

    No, but the mighty femputer will happen… Please ?

  207. 207
    secure63

    I read the article you linked. It sounds like the wife works and isn’t taking care of the child during the day.

  208. 208
    Koshka

    sireccles # 95,

    What we later found out is that the whole episode was exacerbated by chemical/biological things in the body (i.e. not her fault).

    Certainly not your wife’s fault that she had a mental illness. The fact that you needed to point this out is evidence of the stigma attached to mental illness. For what it is worth I hope you and your family get through your problems.

  209. 209
    Koshka

    I read the article you linked. It sounds like the wife works and isn’t taking care of the child during the day.

    I guess you didn’t read the posts where this has already been brought up.

  210. 210
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    It sounds like the wife works and isn’t taking care of the child during the day.

    Well, this changes EVERYTHING. What does it matter if she’s clearly experiencing some kind of heartbreaking despair and getting zero support from her misogynist ass of a husband? The important thing is that she’s not functioning in her designated capacity, amirite?

  211. 211
    Ingdigo Jump

    Please do not share your torture porn fantasies…it sickens some of us

  212. 212
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Please do not share your torture porn fantasies…it sickens some of us

    Sorry. Me not thinking (obviously).

  213. 213
    NateHevens, resident SOOPER-GENIUS... apparently...

    Fucking magnets glossaries. How do they work?

    chickadee @ #74:

    <>

    sireccles @ #95:

    I’m really glad you have that worked out. That’s incredible. The asshole highlighted in the OP could learn a thing or two from you.

  214. 214
    NateHevens, resident SOOPER-GENIUS... apparently...

    *sigh*

    I hate HTML tags. Prefer BBCode…

    Let me try that again…

    ——————————-

    Fucking magnets glossaries. How do they work?

    chickadee @ #74:
    (((hugs)))

    sireccles @ #95:
    I’m really glad you have that worked out. That’s incredible. The asshole highlighted in the OP could learn a thing or two from you.

  215. 215
    markneil

    “This guy does nothing. His wife is on non-stop baby duty all day long, while he’s off interacting with adult human beings who do not poop in their pants and expect him to clean them up, and who speak fluently of phenomena more complex than “play with me” and “feed me”.”

    You seem to have missed a few points:

    ” in fact I’d quit my job as the head of a design agency to work freelance so that I could be at home to care for both of them.”

    “Two years later, she’s back at work and still miserable. She’s successful, but at the cost of not seeing much of our daughter.”

    So, his wife isn’t on non-stop baby duty, she works full time and HE is at home doing freelance work and all the housework. Is this the reading comprehension indicative of a FTB feminist? Or does the knee jerk attack on men come so naturally that you couldn’t get past the url? What’s truly sad is it took almost 80 posts for even a single of your readers to notice your mistake. And when it was pointed out, you were excused of your error in favor of the man bashing continued. You speak of the bile and hatred you claim the MRM has for women. But you clearly don’t know what those are, as your own comments section drips with it, and ignores your own observational errors in order to continue.

  216. 216
    erikthebassist

    Horde,

    The slymepit is dripping in misogyny, reddit is ripe with it, and the commenters on this subreddit are vile, but PZ made some mistakes in the OP, and we’re being called on out on them, better to acknowledge and apologize, as we always ask newcomers here to do, than double down on them.

    Right Mark, dude stays home and tends to the kids while the wife he blames for all his problems goes out and works, we get it. Mistake acknowledged. Apologies served.

    He’s still an ass for a whole host of other reasons, not the least of which is blaming her for her own PPDS.

    He didn’t carry the baby for 9 months, she did, and he has no idea what it was like, and neither do you. Go fuck yourself, really.

    Ironically, I think the poster actually does give a damn about his wife, but only so long as doing so makes him look like a Good Guy™

    Why do I think that? Because the first thing he can do when confronted with her distraught state of mind is figure out how it was not his fault.

    The irony here is that reasonable people would have given him the benefit of the doubt and chalked her distress up to a real psychiatric and treatable condition, but douche bag had to post online about how it was all the feminist’s fault, because it couldn’t possibly be anything he’s ever done or not done that’s to blame.

    Doesn’t matter if he’s to blame or not, what matters is that he’s more concerned with how it looks than how it is. That’s what makes him a douche canoe.

  217. 217
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Yeah, so, we’ve already mentioned about a dozen times that PZ got a few things wrong, and honestly, from the dude’s writing the timeline is pretty confusing.
    He’s still an empathy-free asshole because at the time when his wife was breaking down she was taking care of the baby and now even though his wife doesn’t take care of the kid he’s far from doing “everything”.

    ericthebassist

    The irony here is that reasonable people would have given him the benefit of the doubt and chalked her distress up to a real psychiatric and treatable condition,

    You know, one doesn’t exclude the other.
    The fact that she has a mental health issue doesn’t mean that his behaviour has nothing to do with it.

  218. 218
    Aerik

    Via cleos on reddit, an examination of nigglereddit’s daily life… I’ll quote her here.

    You know, funny thing about this guy who works “ten hours a day.”

    A quick glance at his profile reveals that he spends a LOT of time on Reddit. In the past 24 hours, he’s made over 50 comments on Reddit. I haven’t made that many comments in the past seven days.

    It’s about 10:40 PM here. By my time zone, he made a lot of posts (3-5 in an hour) at around 3-4 PM (7 hours ago), and from 9 AM to 1 PM (10, 11, 12, 13 hours ago). It seems like spends all day on here.

    Somehow, I doubt his wife her 9 to 5 surfing the net.

    Yeah. So he gets time to do shit on reddit all day, and act like he’s a real wage slave. What an asshole.

  219. 219
    SallyStrange

    femsplaining

    Hee! It’s cute.

    It’s like when theists say, “You have just as much faith as I do!”

  220. 220
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Aerik
    Yeah, as I said, I want one of these special 36hrs days, too.
    Things simply don’t match up. Leave aside spending time on the internet, he can’t tell me that he doesn’t go to pee, makes himself a sandwich (poor guy, look at what she makes him do!), etc., all things that get other things dirty.
    Now, if you work in an office and go to the canteen other people clean up the mess. Who does it in his house?
    Who does all the cleaning minus the dishes (and believe me, 2 yo make a lot of chaos and dirt plus they produce incredible amounts of dirty laundry)? Who takes the kid to check-ups, who takes care of her when she’s sick?
    Oh, and btw, get a dishwasher. You earn 100k and your wife clearly isn’t working on minimal wage, those things are not that expensive. But that would probably mean that he has less reason to whine…

  221. 221
    spacklick3

    @ Mytbyri post 196
    I haven’t seen other posts asking for evidence, but I have been skimming, I’ll go back and have a look.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2162568/Council-bans-brainstorming.html
    This link is about the removal of brainstorming as opposed to blackboards but it’s the same thing, people going overboard because they’re in doubt about the problem and don’t want to be seen to perpetrate it.
    As for not having looked into the data, I haven’t specifically looked at responses to feminism and what forms of reaction outgroups take on that, I was simply saying it had plausibility because in other issues where I have more information (Equal rights, Disability discrimination, political correctness) there have been parties who have over-reacted with ludicrous examples as above.

    @ Brownian Post 110 (sorry missed this one)

    In other words, you’ve just written a big ol’ load of bullshit.

    Except that I’ve sat in meetings where changing blackboard to chalkboard had been discussed over fears of racially sensitive language and the local authority trying to remove the word brainstorming above.

    No kidding? You haven’t done any real research? I’d never have guessed.

    I’ve done plenty of real research just not into this specific area of social reaction to a social movement.

    Oh, fuck right off. [snip] Not so much sexism in that? The idea that her depression has everything to do with her silly little princess’s expectations which she wouldn’t have had if she’d talked to a man?

    Except 1) He’s not saying it’s because she’s a woman and 2) That’s not what he says. He says His wife (again just his wife, not women) has unreasonable expectations because of the distorted media from which she (again his wife, not all women) got her information. He then says he got his advice from the men in his circle of friends and it was much more realistic, particularly from his father.
    Are you saying it’s sexist because his role models happened to be men? Or because in this story the person who was foolish in her expectations happened to be the woman?

    And yet you’re not railing about the sexism of PZ assuming the woman stayed at home and the man went to work.

    This is not so much sexist?
    ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING?
    What the fuck is wrong with you? If you don’t know what you’re talking about, then shut the fuck up, asshead.

    Well apparently what’s wrong with me is I can read an article from any source without bias and understand the words in it. Whereas you, it appears, brought a whole load of prior feeling to this article and tried to trump them up.

  222. 222
    spacklick3

    @ Various people calling for a citation on the blackboard PC drama. That was a reference from a meeting I attended, and also a stereotype to give the genre of over-reaction I was talking about. But for similar.

    http://now.msn.com/jittery-uk-police-ban-word-blacklist-for-being-racist
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2140656/Met-Police-ban-word-blacklist-claims-racist.html
    Scotland yard changing the terms blacklist and whitelist to redlist and greenlist over fears the term may foster racial predjudices.

  223. 223
    Deanna Joy Lyons - Mentioner of Patriarchy

    Eric R. @69: There’s a glossary link at the top of the Manboobz site. The very first definition is -

    “First, the acronyms you’ll see most often here:
    MRA: Men’s Rights Activist”

    Also, you could have gleaned the meaning by the context of many of the comments, both here and on the linked site and googled accordingly.

  224. 224
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    spatlick

    Except 1) He’s not saying it’s because she’s a woman and 2) That’s not what he says. He says His wife (again just his wife, not women) has unreasonable expectations because of the distorted media from which she (again his wife, not all women) got her information. He then says he got his advice from the men in his circle of friends and it was much more realistic, particularly from his father.

    Only, of course, it’s not true.

    And on Saturday she meets with her friends, and they have coffee, and they all lie through their teeth about how successful and happy and content they all are, before going back to guys like me and living the exact opposite.

    Yeah, it’s not all women. It’s just his wife. And her friends. No other women. Media also doesn’t influence other women at all. And for sure, media and culture don’t affect men and him in particular. His expectations were completely realistic, that’s why he was so totally puzzled when his wife broke down crying and that’s why he needs to complain on the internet about how fucking hard his life is. Yeah, sounds like he was totally realistically prepared…

  225. 225
    carlie

    Scotland yard changing the terms blacklist and whitelist to redlist and greenlist over fears the term may foster racial predjudices.

    Calling something bad black and something good white is totally different than referring to something value-neutral by its actual color. So no, that’s not a valid example at all.

    On the guy and working – he used the phrasing “I’d quit to freelance”, which usually means “I would quit”. Using that contraction for past tense “I had quit” is much more rare, hence the confusion. But his poor grammar aside, ok, so that totally negates his self-back-patting with regard to getting his daughter ready in the morning. His wife is getting ready for work, so yeah, the guy who isn’t even leaving the house can get the child ready. No big sacrifice there (besides, it is HIS daughter too, right?)

    Then he has 10 hours at home, while his wife has an equivalent number of hours outside at work. If that’s not the case, then he’s lying either about working 10 hours or about doing all the housework/childcare when mom and the kid are at home, because he necessarily can’t be doing any work while doing housework or childcare.

    and they all lie through their teeth about how successful and happy and content they all are, before going back to guys like me and living the exact opposite.

    That quote is so telling, but I imagine he didn’t mean it that way. He just said that they’re unhappy living with guys like him. Yep.

  226. 226
    reliwhat

    haters gon hate

  227. 227
    Ingdigo Jump

    Oh those uppity negros ruining casual conversation for good white folk. What a bunch over dumb over sensative niiiiiiii….err….nigotiators

  228. 228
    markneil

    erikthebassist

    but PZ made some mistakes in the OP, and we’re being called on out on them, better to acknowledge and apologize, as we always ask newcomers here to do, than double down on them.

    And yet, PZ appears unwilling to even revisit this article to acknowledge his mistake. He has perfect faith in himself that he believes himself above reproach… Or so I could assume if I was willing to make snap judgements based on preconceived bias’, as he did to the original target with his projecting of traditional “patriarchal” gender norms, which did influence his assessment.

    You say as you then proceed to double down. For example:

    He didn’t carry the baby for 9 months, she did, and he has no idea what it was like, and neither do you. Go fuck yourself, really.

    Can’t get much more dismissive than this. It doesn’t matter what his opinions are, or mine, because we’re not woman who can carry a baby, so we aren’t entitled to an opinion, even on the idea of setting realistic expectations… What exactly does having realistic expectations of life in general have to do with pregnancy? I’m truly interested to hear this explanation.

    Mistake acknowledged. Apologies served.

    But it hasn’t been. PZ has not revisited this article. He has not edited it or updated it to acknowledge his mistake. He has not re-examined his position with consideration for the proper information. You said it yourself, you expect it from others, but seem to feel that he doesn’t need to so long as one of his flock does it for him. Credibility doesn’t work like that.

    He’s still an ass for a whole host of other reasons,

    I don’t doubt that. In fact I’ve heard him referred to as a nut case by several MRA’s in youtube comments. But PZ said that because this guy went to work then came home, that meant “HE DID NOTHING”… but the truth is, it is his wife that goes out to work, does that mean it is she who does nothing? Or does PZ maintain the rather sexist assumption that, when a man and a woman live together, only the woman is capable of doing the housework, and if a man claims to be doing much of it, he’s lying? Or perhaps PZ believes that if a man works a full time job, he doesn’t contribute anything, but when a woman works a full time job, she’s some kind of hero? After all, providing for ones family is expected of a man, and so he shouldn’t need to be acknowledged for it… so what is it? We don’t know, PZ can’t seem to be bothered to return

    Aside from that, it seems those that choose to continue to attack this guy (such as yourself) are doing so from a position of “he’s an asshole, lets find reasons why”, which then bias’ your assessment of all his writing. He speaks well of the MRM, so I suspect that would happen anyway, but it’s especially obvious when claims that stating his wife and her friends go for coffee, and they all lie through their teeth meaning he thinks all women lie through their teeth… Or the fact that acknowledging the media glamorizes and romanticizes a great many things for women (I don’t know how many times I’ve heard feminist bitch and moan about unrealistic portrayals on TV), and that has negatively affected his wife, is somehow blaming her for your pop internet second hand diagnosis of her mental state.

    Furthermore, PZ isn’t just accusing this guy of being an ass, he’s attacking the entire MRM because we didn’t fail to read the guys post like he did. Does the attack on the entire MRM for their response to a story that was never told still hold?

  229. 229
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    He has not re-examined his position with consideration for the proper information.

    Which means he doesn’t agree with your idea of what the proper information is. That is your bias showing.

  230. 230
    Ingdigo Jump

    Ah yesx we are so mean to the hate group.

  231. 231
    Ingdigo Jump

    Look MRA idiots. No one here cares about your feelings. Your assholes grouped together to share and revel in your jackassery and crybaby victimhood. You spew hateful shit every day and act like giant infants. No one cares about maligning your group because its inately detestable. Fuck off.

  232. 232
    Amphiox

    Furthermore, PZ isn’t just accusing this guy of being an ass, he’s attacking the entire MRM because we didn’t fail to read the guys post like he did.

    You can read the creep’s post in any number of ways.

    And in every single one of them he’s still a creep, and PZ’s overall impression remains correct.

    We’re talking about tornadoes and here you are quibbling over how the shade of the clouds is described.

    Anything to distract from the main point.

  233. 233
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Furthermore, PZ isn’t just accusing this guy of being an ass, he’s attacking the entire MRM because we didn’t fail to read the guys post like he did.Does the attack on the entire MRM for their response to a story that was never told still hold?

    MRM is a fucking joke and wrong because they blame feminist for their problems, when it’s really patriarchy hurts men too (PHMT). That issue is in the post as well. It doesn’t matter that the author pointed out the issue of unrealistic expectations of child rearing, he pins it on the exact opposite cause of the issue.

    So, yes that attack on the MRM still holds since that’s the fucking root of the MRM.

  234. 234
    Ichthyic

    But PZ said that because this guy went to work then came home, that meant “HE DID NOTHING”…

    you have serious reading comprehension problems.

    I bet that comprehension problem extends itself into many other areas.

  235. 235
    erikthebassist

    markneil,

    You don’t do well with subtlety do you? I was being sarcastic in suggesting that there was any real need to address the point that she works during the day.

    It doesn’t fucking matter whether she works or not, or who takes care of the kid(s). The point being made is that the guy’s primary concern is about how this affects him, how this makes him look. He’s not worried about his wife’s feelings, he’s worried about how she came to feel that way, and making sure it’s clear to everyone that it’s the feminists fault and not his.

    His wife isn’t happy, and it’s every one’s fault but his. Do you understand why this makes him a douche bag or do you not?

    And stop acting like the fundamental difference in moral code here is that PZ has yet to acknowledge a misreading of what the guy wrote. The difference between you, an MRA, and us is that you have somehow deluded yourself in to thinking that men are the disadvantaged one’s, the victims of the evil feminists, while we recognize that gender equality still has a long way to go and that equal treatment for women is an ideal that still has to be fought for.

    Let me make it simple for you:

    Forest = We live in a patriarchal society, this fool, and yourself apparently, are in denial about that, so much so that you think feminists are to blame for negative messaging aimed at women by the media. News flash, the media this guy is so upset at is by and large run and owned by white men, just like everything else. The message that there is a perfect fairy tale life that every women should aspire to doesn’t come from feminists, it comes from marketers, people trying to sell you something.

    Trees = PZ Misread a minor detail about who worked at home and who worked outside of the house, mainly because this guy’s writing skills suck.

    Forest… trees… Forest…. trees…

  236. 236
    davidadams

    It looks like you didn’t actually read the post you cited before writing this article.

    The biggest mistake was: the man is the stay-at-home not the woman.

  237. 237
    erikthebassist

    It looks like you didn’t actually read the post you cited before writing this article.

    The biggest mistake was: the man is the stay-at-home not the woman.

    And it looks like you couldn’t be bothered to read any of the comments before opening your wretched pie-hole.

  238. 238
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    The biggest mistake was: the man is the stay-at-home not the woman.

    Fucking no.
    He works from home. Stay at home usually means that you put your energy into homemaking and childrearing and believe me I know what I’m talking about because I’m doing that 5 out of 7 days all by myself while my husband just works 8 hours and then has the day off.
    Difference is that when he comes home for the weekend he tries to give me a break and is sorry that he can’t shoulder his fair share.

  239. 239
    markneil

    And it looks like you couldn’t be bothered to read any of the comments before opening your wretched pie-hole.

    Would it have mattered. PZ never acknowledges his mistake, and the lot of you excuse it at every opportunity. PZ’s article is specifically about how this guy works all day getting to socialize with adults, while dumping household and child responsibilities on his wife, then has the gumption to complain about it. The fact that PZ got the very CORE of the argument wrong IE, The wife is the one who gets to socialize with adults, the wife DOESN”T get all the responsibilities dumped on her, and he isn’t complaining about his wife, but about the expectations she had due to media (allegedly feminist driven) fiction, yet you lot seem to think his argument still stands as written, it’s ludicrous. Take out the mistakes PZ makes from this article and all you have left is him bitching that the guy rejected the idea of divorce because it would harm his daughter. /s the fucking MONSTER!/s

    And you think this doesn’t require an acknowledgement of his mistake. You feel PZ is above admitting he is wrong? Is he really so sacrosanct? And the funniest part is, you even admitted as much, and now you’re backpeddling, claiming you were being sarcastic. Fucking hypocrites.

  240. 240
    markneil

    you have serious reading comprehension problems.

    I bet that comprehension problem extends itself into many other areas.

    I helpfully highlighted the important part there for you.

    This guy does nothing. His wife is on non-stop baby duty all day long, while he’s off interacting with adult human beings who do not poop in their pants and expect him to clean them up,

    And I helpfully highlighted the important part for you.

  241. 241
    luciferratcliffe

    Oh dear, I’m afraid PZ’s ass has been righteously kicked by someone with decent reading comprehension.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7gvA2dT9Og&feature=g-all-f

    I love skeptical thinking.

  242. 242
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Would it have mattered. PZ never acknowledges his mistake, and the lot of you excuse it at every opportunity.

    It’s been a whole day since he posted this.

    *shock**awe**horror* A WHOLE DAY! HE’S NEVER GOING TO CORRECT. NO, DON’T PAY ATTENTION TO HIS HISTORY OF CORRECTING HIS MISTAKES, JUST BE AN ASSUMING ASSHOLE.

  243. 243
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    This guy does nothing. Yep, PZ go it in one. Whereas you don’t get it….
    Try listening to women. But then, you would have to shut the fuck up and stop telling them how they should feel…

  244. 244
    erikthebassist

    Markneil,

    The fact that you think this is the core of the argument is exactly why people are saying you have reading comprehension problems. It’s not even close to the core of the argument.

    The core of the argument is that this guy is whining and bitching about his miserable life and miserable wife, and he’s blaming, of people, feminists, for his problems while not accepting a shred of responsibility, or expressing an ounce of empathy for his wife.

    If for a moment he put this MRA bullshit to the side and stopped to think about where he and his wife are and how they got to that point, it would fucking occur to him that he might be in someway responsible for how unhappy his wife is. Maybe he’ll understand that walking the dog and doing the dishes and making 100k a year are not what his wife needs, what she needs is empathy, someone who appreciates that she carried his baby for 9 months and what it did to her body and mind.

    What she doesn’t need is some whiny woe is me douchebag who doesn’t give a rats ass about anyone but himself. Forest, trees Mark, you’re blinded by the latter, so stfu already.

  245. 245
    Ingdigo Jump

    Ywah everyone ignore the “I only don’t divorce her because she’s a bitch and societry hates me” bullshit.

  246. 246
    Hairhead, whose head is entirely filled with Too Much Stuff

    markneil:

    The fact that PZ got the very CORE of the argument wrong IE, The wife is the one who gets to socialize with adults, the wife DOESN”T get all the responsibilities dumped on her, and he isn’t complaining about his wife, but about the expectations she had due to media (allegedly feminist driven) fiction, yet you lot seem to think his argument still stands as written, it’s ludicrous.

    No, Mr. Neil. The CORE of PZ’s argument is that nigglereddit is a misogynist asshole who believes that his wife is an intrinsically lesser being than him.
    * She is lesser because she has nothing to be unhappy about (from his point of view)(her point of view does not count).
    * She is lesser because she is easily fooled by the same media that HE is soaking in, but immune to, due to his holy MALENESS.
    * She is lesser because she and her friends, (ALL OF THEM) lie to each other, because, as they are all women, they all susceptible and easily fooled as his wife is.
    * He states openly that he, the man, is superior to her, more naturally intelligent and mature and forward-thinking and so on, because he surrounds himself with males who are superior like him.
    * He considers her unhappiness not to be a mental illness, not to be a reasonable response to a very stressful life, not to be because she knows he feels she is inferior (Oh no, why would she think that; after all no-one who reads what I write can tell that I’m an utter douchebag, so why would someone who talks to me face to face every day, reads my expressions, hears my words, listens to my vocal tone, and watches my actions know that?), not to be because of how he treats her or how he imposes his expectations . . . . She’s unhappy because SHE IS A WOMAN, AND THEREFORE INFERIOR TO STRONG, MANLY, NON-COMPLAINING-AT-ALL-AND-THESE-REDDIT-POSTS-DON’T-COUNT-SHUT-UP-SHUT-UP-MALE-MAN!

    Christ, I have seen all of these “childlike”, “immature”, “excitable”, and “over-emotional” arguments used against blacks (and other ethnicities) since the 1960′s. They were wrong then, and they are wrong now when applied to women.

    PZ’s CORE argument, Mr. Neil is that nigglereddit and his MRA friends are self-centred, bigotted, unempathic, sexist douchebags. And nigglereddit proves it.

  247. 247
    Amphiox

    And now they’re harping about the literal meaning of “nothing” when it is clear in context that PZ used it rhetorically.

    Anything to distract from the CORE issue – the indefensible misogyny of the post as a whole, and the MRM in general.

    Pathetic.

  248. 248
    erikthebassist

    I will preemptively apologize for the use of the term “bitching”, old habits die hard.

    And Hairhead, holy hell you nailed it, everything I was trying to say but not nearly as well.

  249. 249
    markneil

    * She is lesser because she has nothing to be unhappy about (from his point of view)(her point of view does not count).

    Seems to me he actually acknowledges parenting is hard, and that she DOES have things to be stressed over, and it has been made all the worst by the false Cinderella story she was fed from the media.

    At no point does anyone, but you, call his wife a lessor being.

    * She is lesser because she is easily fooled by the same media that HE is soaking in, but immune to, due to his holy MALENESS.

    Seems to me he is saying he has gotten feedback from other sources other than the media that set him straight. Furthermore, given the media’s tendency to promote the woman who can have it all vs the struggling to stay relevant father, she had a lot further to fall.

    And again, at no point does anyone, but you, call his wife a lessor being.

    * She is lesser because she and her friends, (ALL OF THEM) lie to each other, because, as they are all women, they all susceptible and easily fooled as his wife is.

    Men are accussed and harranged all the time for their “inability to ask for help”. Does acknowledging that the pressures on his wife and her friends to be the supermoms as seen in the media can have a negative effect on their ability to ask for help from each other, to acknowledge their difficulties to each other, really constitute misogyny?

    And again, at no point does anyone, but you, call his wife a lessor being.

    * He states openly that he, the man, is superior to her, more naturally intelligent and mature and forward-thinking and so on, because he surrounds himself with males who are superior like him.

    No, he doesn’t. That is your own, and PZ’s, projection onto him. You are so eager to make him an evil man, you assign motive onto him that is based on nothing short of your own misandry

    * He considers her unhappiness not to be a mental illness, not to be a reasonable response to a very stressful life, not to be because she knows he feels she is inferior (Oh no, why would she think that; after all no-one who reads what I write can tell that I’m an utter douchebag, so why would someone who talks to me face to face every day, reads my expressions, hears my words, listens to my vocal tone, and watches my actions know that?), not to be because of how he treats her or how he imposes his expectations . . . . She’s unhappy because SHE IS A WOMAN, AND THEREFORE INFERIOR TO STRONG, MANLY, NON-COMPLAINING-AT-ALL-AND-THESE-REDDIT-POSTS-DON’T-COUNT-SHUT-UP-SHUT-UP-MALE-MAN!

    And not a single one of these accusations can actually be found in the post. They require your own projections and assumptions (including the assumption that he abandons his wife at home with the child, as PZ did) to create.

    PZ’s CORE argument, Mr. Neil is that nigglereddit and his MRA friends are self-centred, bigotted, unempathic, sexist douchebags. And nigglereddit proves it.

    You are aware that the way nigglereddit “proved” it through a fictional account created by PZ, not through any actual actions or statements of Nigglereddit himself. The rest of your accusations are simply projections of imagined motives, based on your own hatred, in order to justify that hatred.

  250. 250
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    At no point does anyone, but you, call his wife a lessor being.

    What is it with MRAs and their complete inability to grok nuance or subtext. Here’s the thing, diddums, his ENTIRE POST is about how he is a superior person. Now, think real hard about this next question: If he’s the superior one, what does that make her?

    The rest of your post is just a hilarious whinefest of “nuh- uh” and “misandry!” Since there isn’t a shred of honesty or understanding of context, subtext or nuance, thank you for being so willing to humiliate yourself. That’s the ONE thing MRAs are always good for.

  251. 251
    markneil

    diddums

    If you’re trying to troll me, by all means, don’t bother with the pretence of trying to discuss the topic at hand. Just come right out and say what you really feel.

    What is it with MRAs and their complete inability to grok nuance or subtext. Here’s the thing, diddums, his ENTIRE POST is about how he is a superior person.

    And what is with you feminists always injecting your own “subtext” and bias into anything a man (or woman) you don’t like does? The only way niggle’s post can be read as you describe it is if you project that motive onto him. What he actually describes is a woman who is suffering because she was fed a bad dream, and the only one he blames is you (IE feminism) and the media. I note, by your very choice to attack him rather than an acknowledge the media does misrepresent motherhood as some wonderful dream, you are proving him correct. You are so blind from your hate that you can’t even see a post that acknowledges a harm to women, even if you want to deny feminist involvement.

    But it’s more important that you attack men and MRA’s. And in order to do so, you will create all the “subtext” you need. PZ’s article, and his failure to even notice the truth of the working positions in favour of his own “this guy is a do nothing asshole” narrative, demonstrates that clear as day to anyone who isn’t a dogmatic warshiper.

    Feminism has become nothing more than an exercise in group psychological projection. And this article and it’s comment section is a prime example of that.

  252. 252
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    At no point does anyone, but you, call his wife a lessor being.

    Gee, since you supposedly can read for context and nuance, you miss an awful lot of red flags, code words, and dog whistles. They are all there. He is superior to any and all women. That is obvious except to somebody like you who is being purposely obtuse, illiterate, and unnuanced. Didn’t they teach you to read between the lines in literature class? Which is why you will get nowhere here. We see through the words to the ideas behind them.

    Waiting for your next bit of idiocy.

  253. 253
    Hairhead, whose head is entirely filled with Too Much Stuff

    Mr. Neil, the stupid, it burns!!

    1) It’s spelt “lesser”, not “lessor” — several times.

    2) And I never once called her a lesser being; I said that HE classifies her as a lesser being — several times. Can’t you read? I mean that sincerely. Can’t you read?

    3) “My own misandry?” I like myself and my particular male friends very much. In fact, I’ve sucked cocks in my time, too. I don’t dislike males at all. Or women. I do dislike bigots.

    4) Now, let’s put 2) and 3) together. According to you, I hate men (and therefore myself) AND I think that women are lesser beings. As a rational being, my brain can’t handle that; evidently, yours can — which says something about your brain and the contents thereof.

    5)

    . . . . and it has been made all the worst by the false Cinderella story she was fed from the media . . . .

    Evidence? C’mon, evidence. Where does he mention specific tropes and instances which she references? What are her specific complaints? We hear none of them. WE HEAR HIS ASSUMPTIONS, NOTHING MORE. It’s HIS voice, talking for her, not HER voice.

    6)

    Does acknowledging that the pressures on his wife and her friends to be the supermoms as seen in the media can have a negative effect on their ability to ask for help from each other, to acknowledge their difficulties to each other, really constitute misogyny?

    Um, let’s look at the original post.

    And on Saturday she meets with her friends, and they have coffee, and they all lie through their teeth about how successful and happy and content they all are,

    Looks to me like nigglereddit thinks they’re all stupid, bamboozzled, lying crones — not him, the man, who, he notes multiple times, was brought up (insert superior tone here) “brutal reality”. And the fact is that most of the commenters here agreed with what I see. And I can guarantee you that we are all different, all argumentative, all quite intelligent, and further, all exposed multiple times to the garbage of your attitude and your arguments.

    It is unnecessary for me to fisk your reply further. Your complete inability to see the disgust and contempt in nigglereddit’s comments about his wife and women in general, your inability to see the contrast with the multiple laudatory remarks he makes about himself, his father, his friends, and males in general demonstrates your blindness to obvious bigotry. And as such, you are not worth further of my time.

  254. 254
    markneil

    That is obvious except to somebody like you who is being purposely obtuse, illiterate, and unnuanced. Didn’t they teach you to read between the lines in literature class? Which is why you will get nowhere here. We see through the words to the ideas behind them.

    Thank you for admitting that what you are seeing in his post is simply what YOU choose to put there. You are not looking at what was written, but rather, at the words you choose to write between the lines, and the images you see through the words, where your bias’ fill in the blanks.

    I also find it amusing how you can insist so adamantly that reading subtext and nuance is so acceptable until PZ is accused of racism and homophobia with his use of niggardly and tinkerbell. Then, all of a sudden, what is said, and ONLY what is said, may be considered. Again, fucking hypocrites.

  255. 255
    ChasCPeterson

    Actually, PZ has a pretty well-deserved reputation for skimping on the fact-checking. And he never acknowledges such errors.

  256. 256
    Hairhead, whose head is entirely filled with Too Much Stuff

    You’re a fucking liar, Chas. I have seen PZ acknowledge errors multiple times.

  257. 257
    erikthebassist

    Do you MRA’s not get that as members of the privileged group you will never be on the right side of the issue as long as you maintain that you’re under any sort of persecution whatsoever because of your membership in that privileged group?

    It’s the equivalent of being white and complaining about reverse racism. It’s not your civil rights that are being violated when a black person, or a woman is given an artificial advantage over you, it’s your privilege that is being countered in an effort to level the playing field.

    You will never be right as long as you try and claim persecution as a member of the privileged group, never, stop trying.

  258. 258
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Surely, Chas, he’s just ‘trying too hard’. Nothing wrong with that, amirite?

    ++

    Thank you for admitting that what you are seeing in his post is simply what YOU choose to put there

    Translation: Nuance? Subtext? Context? Dogwhistles? STOP MAKING UP WORDS!!! These things don’t exist!

  259. 259
    olivercrangle

    A highly recommended video created in response to this terribly inaccurate and intentionally hurtful mansplaining post by Professor Myers.

    A Response to PZ Myers

  260. 260
    olivercrangle

    Whoops, that video was created by TruthAndOblivion.

  261. 261
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    A terribly inaccurate and intentionally hurtful mansplaining video created in response to this highly recommended post by Professor Myers.

    FTFY, bigotty diddums.

  262. 262
    Aratina Cage

    TruthAndOblivion is Booly Wumblebee, a documented plagiarist.

  263. 263
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    “TruthAndOblivion is Booly Wumblebee, a documented plagiarist.”

    LOLOLOLOLOL of course it is. Well, we should thank bigotty crangle for being so honest as to his lack of honesty and credibility. That’s weirdly decent of him, to admit it up front.

  264. 264
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    You are not looking at what was written, but rather, at the words you choose to write between the lines, and the images you see through the words, where your bias’ fill in the blanks.

    No, I am looking at the words he put down. The dog whistles, code words, and red flags. They are in what he said. Just like with every bigot who tries to hide behind polite language. You don’t see those words since you don’t look for them. I’ve looked for them since the 1960′s. They aren’t hard to find, nor to decipher. You admit you are a niave nitwit who doesn’t truly understand the language, and why one must be skeptical of everybody and everything. And I’m just as skeptical of anything you say as he is of anything a woman says. And you don’t like it. Think about that.

  265. 265
    Amphiox

    So, first it was “femsplaining” and when that sad attempt at creativity went over like a lead balloon, it is back to “mansplaining”.

    Oi, the cargo cult victimhood is as strong as ever.

    Pitiful.

  266. 266
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    You are not looking at what was written, but rather, at the words you choose to write between the lines, and the images you see through the words, where your bias’ fill in the blanks.

    You must not like poetry very much.

    “WHO CARES ABOUT THE RED WHEELBARROW. NOTHING REALLY DEPENDS ON IT ANYWAY. IT’S A FUCKING WHEELBARROW.”

  267. 267
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    the cargo cult victimhood is as strong as ever.

    what does this mean? *googles furiously

  268. 268
    markneil

    1) It’s spelt “lesser”, not “lessor” — several times.

    If this is what you feel the need to lead with, you really shouldn’t have bothered replying at all. Pretty weak.

    2) And I never once called her a lesser being;

    Nether did nigglereddit. The only person who referred to her as a lesser being, was you, in the “subtext” that you wrote between the lines.

    3) “My own misandry?” I like myself and my particular male friends very much. In fact, I’ve sucked cocks in my time, too. I don’t dislike males at all. Or women. I do dislike bigots.

    The existence of exceptions does not disprove the generality. The fact that you choose to say “I like a handful of men” only demonstrates where your default rests. You also admit you’re gay (or bi), and the feminist definition of masculinity often includes homophobia, which works alongside the idea that, in general, you hate men/masculinity. SUBTEXT haHA!

    According to you, I hate men (and therefore myself) AND I think that women are lesser beings. As a rational being, my brain can’t handle that;

    Wow, I wasn’t aware hatred was a zero sum concept. That if one hated women, one couldn’t then also hate someone else. That of course ignores the fact that thinking lesser of someone is not the same as hate. You can hate one group and think poorly of another. I also wasn’t aware that it could only exist in absolutes (IE, if you hate men, you MUST hate ALL men, including yourself).

    Evidence? C’mon, evidence. Where does he mention specific tropes and instances which she references?

    I could just dismiss you by claiming “subtext”, as you lot seem to like doing, but I’ll instead point to where he links to 2 images of what he said she thought motherhood would be like.

    What are her specific complaints?

    Nether I nor he said SHE had complaints. He said HE believes she bought into an unrealistic dream promoted (to women) by the media. If you would like to discuss the topic further, perhaps you should discuss it with HIM, instead of whinging in your echo chamber.

    Looks to me like nigglereddit thinks they’re all stupid,

    EVIDENCE! He doesn’t at all say they are stupid, he says they are lying to each other about being happy. They are projecting a brave face instead of admitting their problems. You know, like feminists have been telling men they need to do for decades? Are you admitting that, when feminists say guys don’t ask for help, that they are calling guys stupid?

    And the fact is that most of the commenters here agreed with what I see.

    No, they agree with how you “feel”. They accept what PZ told them was there (80 comments before a single person noticed PZ’s mistake. And once it was pointed out, it didn’t slow a single one of you down). And given the cult mentality of this place, it’s no surprise.

    And as such, you are not worth further of my time.

    AKA I refuse to prostrate myself to you, and inject motive onto the guy that isn’t there, but that you want me to inject, so I’m to be summarily dismissed.

  269. 269
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    You must not like poetry very much.

    “WHO CARES ABOUT THE RED WHEELBARROW. NOTHING REALLY DEPENDS ON IT ANYWAY. IT’S A FUCKING WHEELBARROW.”

    HAHAHAHAHA

    /falls over laughing.

    awesomeness.

  270. 270
    markneil

    erikthebassist

    Do you MRA’s not get that as members of the privileged group you will never be on the right side of the issue as long as you maintain that you’re under any sort of persecution whatsoever because of your membership in that privileged group?

    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/09/26/matt-gurney-university-run-legal-aid-forgets-justice-applies-to-men-too/

    Please, tell me. Are men not being persecuted in this example due to their gender? Or are you saying it’s not wrong to deny to men services offered to women, based solely on their gender? Are men not aloud to point out they are under attack until they are all in shackles (metaphorically or literally)? Is not your very comment an example of sexism, to deny to men what is given freely to women, AKA, a right to speak up about issues they are concerned about? I thought you hated bigots, I guess instead, you are one.

  271. 271
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Are men not being persecuted in this example due to their gender? Or are you saying it’s not wrong to deny to men services offered to women, based solely on their gender? Are men not aloud to point out they are under attack until they are all in shackles (metaphorically or literally)?

    The guy’s wife is (probably) suffering from depression, possibly severe, and all the guy can do is whine about how HE has no choices, how HE is being adversely affected, and how it affects HIM, and you claim he is persecuted, is being denied services, and is in shackles?

  272. 272
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    We’re bigots.

    Aw! Bless his heart*.

    (* this phrase is completely literal and carries no second layer of meaning at all.)

  273. 273
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Are men not being persecuted in this example due to their gender?

    Nope. The only victims are the “poor widdle me” guy’s wife and child. They are the victims of his attitude of victimhood attempting, and failing, to mask his feelings of superiority. Which they must deal with.

  274. 274
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    all the guy can do is whine about how HE has no choices, how HE is being adversely affected, and how it affects HIM, and you claim he is persecuted, is being denied services, and is in shackles?

    Clearly, this is mark’s opinion of men. Selfish, deluded, lazy emapthy-free crybabies.

    And it’s *us* that are bigots.

    LOLOL.

    Like I said, you can always rely on an MRA to humilate himself “aloud”.

  275. 275
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    gender? Or are you saying it’s not wrong to deny to men services offered to women, based solely on their gender? Are men not aloud to point out they are under attack until they are all in shackles (metaphorically or literally)? Is not your very comment an example of sexism, to deny to men what is given freely to women, AKA, a right to speak up about issues they are concerned about? I thought you hated bigots, I guess instead, you are one.

    That’s filed under Patriarchy Hurts Men Too and is covered by feminism. Give up the antiquated gender roles where men are ‘manly men who can’t be abused’ and that makes it better. Abused men should absolutely be believed and be able to get help. It’s true that the vast majority of abuse is man on woman but that doesn’t mean the services shouldn’t be available. There are men who have been abused here and we absolutely support them.

    This, however, can not be laid upon feminism as the cause or take the blame for it. This article, this MRM who blame feminism for faults of patriarchy are not helping. They are actively hurting the feminist movement and their chance at an equal society.

    Men are under attack to fit the manly man stereotype perpetrated by the patriarchy. They are no where near what it’s like dealing with being a minority, or person of color or gay or a woman. There’s no way it’s equivalent. There’s intersection and all, but generally speaking men have it a whole lot easier.

  276. 276
    Subtract Hominem, a product of Nauseam

    You must not like poetry very much.

    “WHO CARES ABOUT THE RED WHEELBARROW. NOTHING REALLY DEPENDS ON IT ANYWAY. IT’S A FUCKING WHEELBARROW.”

    Day saved! Thank you, kristinc!

  277. 277
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    That comment about the wheelbarrow still cracking me up. Seriously, thank you kristinc for that.

  278. 278
    Amphiox

    Are men not aloud to point out they are under attack until they are all in shackles (metaphorically or literally)?

    The men in question here don’t sound very silenced to me. They’ve got themselves a whole reddit subthread to wank on, for one.

    And no one’s stopping you from continuing to fap here on this blog thread either.

    So go on and point all you wish. Just don’t expect to be entitled, when those “shackles” are non-existent and imaginary, or when the direction you “point” happens to be the exact opposite direction of where your problem is actually coming from, to be laughed at.

    And speaking of being silenced, you know who we haven’t heard one peep from in this entire saga?

    The wife.

    Who’s being silenced again?

  279. 279
    markneil

    Ogvorbis, Nerd of Redhead, Illuminata

    I provided a link to an example. But I suppose it is easier to feel smarter than someone else when you decide to create your own adversary.

    Illuminata

    Clearly, this is mark’s opinion of men

    I’ve never said anything of the sort, like what you had in the blockquotes. This is what I’m talking about. You rewrite reality, crating a fiction and attributing it to others, and then you rail against that fiction.

    At JLA, that you for being smart enough to realize, when I start with a link, and say “in this example”, I’m referring to the link.

    That said, My point was that erikthebassist stated openly that men will never be on the right side of an issue so long as they claim that issue is discriminating against them for being the “privileged class”. How does your statement support this assertion? If it doesn’t, then what is the relevance of attempting to contradict me?

    Additionally, the “patriarchy hurts men too” is used to dismiss men’s concerns, not address them. The ones actually committing the discrimination are FEMINISTS, so they most certainly are NOT fighting the problem:

    David Tanovich, a University of Windsor law professor, said that the committee that decided to exclude men wanted to address “systemic issues” faced by women in the legal system. “We’re a social justice law school. We have a social justice mandate,” he told the Windsor Star.

    The rest is just standard feminist talking points with little substance and no relevance to the point I’m making.

  280. 280
    markneil

    Correction: “At JLA, that you for being smart enough to realize,”

    That should read thank you…

  281. 281
    erikthebassist

    Markneil,

    Let me tell you a little story that happened to me.

    When I decided to leave my then wife, the only things I took away from our 12 years together were my clothes, my bass and my computer. I left her with the car, the house and everything in it.

    It was a relatively amicable and mutual decision to split up. I moved back east from California. We had a joint checking account, and I had informed her that I would need some walking around money while I got back on my feet, found a job etc… but that I had every intention of helping with the mortgage until she could refi the house at a lower rate and / or find a roommate (houses in California are expensive)

    About a week after I left, I went to use my debit card and it was denied. I was at a bar that night with some friends. It was embarrassing, I had to borrow money to pay my tab.

    I went home and looked at the account online, and indeed, she had cleaned out the account. So I called her, on the cell phone I was still paying the bill for. No answer, left a message, waited a couple hours, still no answer.

    I know her schedule, I know she always the phone near and on, so I texted, no response. I started to get angry, really angry, what had been an amicable split just turned nasty.

    I spent the next two days blowing up her phone trying to get a hold of her. She refused to talk to me, I left some nasty voice mails, threatened to force her to sell the house or to come back and take the car. I said some things I wasn’t proud of, but at no point did I threaten her with any kind of physical violence, and I was 2500 miles away.

    Finally 2 days later someone answered the phone, a police officer. He informed me that I was breaking the law by harassing my wife.

    I was pissed, livid, I asked him how she was able to steal thousands of dollars from me but I wasn’t allowed to talk to her about it.

    A week later I was served with a restraining order. It was a TRO, temporary restraining order. It was the worst experience of my life, all of a sudden, in the eyes of the law, I was an abusive husband. The accusation incensed me.

    I called a lawyer, he said there was nothing I could do until she went to court to make it permanent. I spent a month hating her, hating the system that allowed her to steal from me and then protected her when she did.

    I tried looking for cheap or free legal services. No one would help me. I felt like the system was stacked against me. I didn’t know anything about MRA’s and didn’t really know much about feminism and women’s issues either.

    When court date was given to me, I found out I could file a petition with the court to appear via remote, by telephone basically. The court date was so she could make the TRO permanent. So I filed the paperwork. It was denied.

    I called the court clerk and asked why. I was told it was at the judges discretion, and this particular female judge had little to no interest in my side of the story. If my wife felt threatened, the permanent restraining order would be granted.

    I started doing research, I wanted to know how and why the system could be so one sided, so sexist and biased against men.

    Up to this point you must be thinking, how in the fuck, after going through all that did you end up a feminist and not an MRA?!?!?!?!? Amirite?

    Well, my research taught me some things about violence against women. I read horror stories about women who were denied restraining order’s in other states where they were harder to get, you know, because men’s rights and shit.

    Women being murdered or beat to within an inch of their life, going in to hiding. I realized how stacked against women the system was in some states, how little protection they have.

    The more I learned, the more I felt like an asshole. The more I learned, the more I realized that my wife was given good advice by the cop to go get the restraining order.

    I later talked to that cop, and I apologized to him, and to my ex-wife a thousand times since. We’re on friendly terms now. She never did show at court six months later to make that TRO permanent.

    I became a feminist because of this experience. I realized it wasn’t all about me. She took the money because without it, she’d have lost the house in 3 months, and she was afraid I would spend it or take it. She had nowhere to go, I was comfy and staying with family while I looked for a job.

    By threatening to force her out of the house and taking the car, I was threatening to make her homeless. I didn’t have to make a threat violence to scare the living shit out of her.

    I learned a valuable lesson, and I grew up a lot. My whole outlook changed for the better. I’d hate myself even more by now if I’d gone down your route, the MRA route, being bitter at my ex-wife, bitter at the system.

    Letting go of that bitterness was the best thing that ever happened to me, you should try it.

  282. 282
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    speaking of being silenced, you know who we haven’t heard one peep from in this entire saga?

    The wife.

    Who’s being silenced again?

    Bah. It’s her own fault. Too busy reading Vogue and lying over coffee to whinily broadcast her marital problems in a public forum. Now if she had been brought up surrounded by BRUTAL REALITY, like a superior man-being, she would have presciently known that there was a discussion going on about her.

    At JLA, tha[nk] you for being smart enough to realize

    Oooooh, JLA, you’re one of the good ones.

  283. 283
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    At JLA, that you for being smart enough to realize, when I start with a link, and say “in this example”, I’m referring to the link.

    *sigh*

    First, get my nym right.

    Second, don’t applaud me since I thought the article was dealing with not taking cases men who were abused. Not that they aren’t taking cases to defend men against claims of abuse. So flip everything I said around.
    Do you have an issue with places that deals with systematic issues that blacks face in the justice system? I really don’t see a difference here at all. So no, this isn’t a problem that one small program is dealing with just the issues women face in our “justice” system.

    Everyone else saw that, your article just doesn’t haven anything to do with this. It’s markedly different issue from this author, and this article.

  284. 284
    Hairhead, whose head is entirely filled with Too Much Stuff

    erikthebassist: Thank you for your story. Personal growth often comes at a cost; often this is the cost of researching and actively learning something new.

    Your experience also impresses upon me the importance, nay, the ABSOLUTE NECESSITY of putting everything in writing — advice given to me by a family lawyer. Always do this, she said. We may trust people, but we cannot trust circumstances, and breaking a relationship will inevitably and always change circumstances radically, so much so that previous unwritten agreements (and often the written ones) will fall by the wayside.

  285. 285
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Oooooh, JLA, you’re one of the good ones.

    This is made all the funnier with my last comment realization. XD

    Oh, lordy. Well, at least I was able to correct my mistake soon enough, not even a whole day had gone by!

    /snort

    This is going to held against me forever, isn’t it? *sigh* Of course it is.

  286. 286
    Walton

    In a just world, he’d be knee-capped and have his tongue cut out,..

    … or do I sound too hostile?

    Can we please stop with the violent rhetoric? It’s been happening disturbingly often, recently.

  287. 287
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    If it doesn’t, then what is the relevance of attempting to contradict me?

    You aren’t relevant. Your attempts to play the victim are pitiful, inane, and contrary to reality. You sound like a presuppositional creobot the way you argue. You are the presumed victim, believe what I say. But I don’t believe you, and won’t because of your fallacious presupposition of victimhood. You must loose that to have a meaningful discussion here. Otherwise, you preach nonsense.

  288. 288
    Ingdigo Jump

    If Markneil is going to dismiss things as feminist talking points why should we entertain his MRMouseshit?

  289. 289
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    If Markneil is going to dismiss things as feminist talking points why should we entertain his MRMouseshit?

    We shouldn’t, until he acknowledges the other side which refutes his fuckwittery. He should be treated as skeptically as he treats feminism…

  290. 290
    olivercrangle

    WHY DO WOMEN INITIATE DIVORCE? Apr 26, 2011 | By J.E. Myers

    n 2000, two law professors, Margaret Brinig from Notre Dame University and Douglas Allen from Iowa, conducted a surprising study. The two professors studied 46,000 divorce cases filed in four states—Connecticut, Virginia, Montana and Oregon—to find out why women file for divorce. The results of that study, published in “These Boots Are Made for Walking: Why Most Divorce Filers Are Women,” proved to be surprising. Women are 66 percent more likely to file for a divorce than a man, Brinig and Allen say. However, the reason why has proven unexpected.

    It’s not domestic violence.
    It’s not infidelity.
    It’s not exploitation.

    It’s Because I’ve Outgrown him
    It’s Because I Don’t Need him
    It’s Because I will win Custody of the Children

    So when PZ writes how horrible nigglereddit is to weigh the utility of the marriage, consider that fundamentally, this really speaks to PZ Myer’s ignorance of biology, at least that of homo sapiens.

  291. 291
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    It’s Because I will win Custody of the Children

    Spoken like a true arrogant ignorant bastard not caring about anything other than its ego…

  292. 292
    myeck waters

    I really love the idea that a woman would decide to get a divorce not because the marriage is broken but because she thinks she would get a better “score” in the court “game”.

    Only an MRA would think that made sense.

  293. 293
    chigau (違う)

    Here is a PDF of the “Boots” paper.
    http://www.unc.edu/courses/2010fall/econ/586/001/Readings/Brinig.pdf
    As opposed to a stupid magazine article written by someone who didn’t actually read the whole original.

  294. 294
    Amphiox

    So when PZ writes how horrible nigglereddit is to weigh the utility of the marriage, consider that fundamentally, this really speaks to PZ Myer’s ignorance of biology, at least that of homo sapiens.

    So olivercrangle is still wanking away here attempting to defend the indefensible?

    Let’s have a look:

    It’s Because I’ve Outgrown him
    It’s Because I Don’t Need him
    It’s Because I will win Custody of the Children

    It is notable that he plops the misleading catchphrases down but tries to avoid citing the actual descriptions. Shall we have a look at them?

    Women today often decide to divorce their husbands because they have simply outgrown them, according to author Carol Ann Wilson in her book “ABCs of Divorce for Women.” Wilson, a professional counselor for women in financial issues, says that many more women are simply realizing that they have new career and personal growth opportunities. Wilson says that wives who married young especially develop new perspectives over the years, perspectives that outdistance their husbands’ ability to keep pace.

    In this age of continuing independence for women in general, divorce often is an escape for women who simply do not want in a marriage anymore.

    “The question of custody absolutely swamps all the other variables,” Brinig said. “Our study found that children are the most important asset in a marriage and the partner who expects to get custody is by far the one most likely to file for divorce.” Brinig adds that not only are women certain they will get custody, they divorce specifically in order to “gain full control over the children.”

    So basically we have situation of women realizing that their marriage was a mistake from the beginning, and finding that the three biggest barriers that in the past kept women trapped in bad relationships – financial dependence, social stigma, and concern for the children, have thankfully been somewhat lowered, and that motivates them to choose divorce rather than stay in a bad relationship.

    And olivercrangle wants to equate this with utility, to present a false equivalence with this:

    I don’t stand to gain much from a divorce and I’d lose a great deal. Besides, I’m nearly forty and I have a two year old. A wild life of drinking and dating isn’t likely even if we do separate!

    The sheer intellectual dishonesty olivercrangle displays here is mindblowing.

    (And as if biology has ANYTHING relevant to do with deciding to divorce)

    It’s pathetic.

  295. 295
    olivercrangle

    Thank you chigau for bringing us the actual paper.

    Can you explain to us how its research and conclusions differ from the magazine article?

    Can you explain to us how this disproves the point that PZ Myers is grossly sexist to complain that a man weighed the utility of a divorce?

    @myeck, I urge you to play too.

  296. 296
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    The sheer intellectual dishonesty olivercrangle displays here is mindblowing.

    This surprises you? olivercrangle has, again and again, demonstrated willful dishonesty.

  297. 297
    olivercrangle

    Table 6 displays the strength of the custody coef­ ficients under the conditions where the other variables are at their most extreme. In case 1, we have a situation biased in favor of the husband’s filing. Merely switching the anticipation of custody in this case from the husband to the wife changes the probability of the wife’s filing from .095 to .69-s1ightly more than a seven-fold increase. In case 2, the bias is in favor of the wife’s filing. Yet switching the anticipation of custody from the wife to the husband results in a fall from .79 to .32 in the probability of the wife’s filing for divorce.

    As we have stressed throughout the paper, filing behavior can be inter­ preted as either an attempt to leave a bad situation or an attempt to leave the marriage with a disproportionate share of the marital property. Out­ side of the custody variables in our regressions, we find little evidence for the exploitation theory and more for the appropriation one.

    6. Conclusion
    Our results are consistent with our hypothesis that filing behavior is driven by self-interest at the time of divorce. Individuals file for divorce when there are marital assets that may be appropriated through divorce, as in the case of leaving when they have received the benefit of educational investments such as advanced degrees. … We have found that who gets the children is by far the most important component in deciding who files for divorce, particularly when there is little quarrel about property, as when the separation is long.

    What does all this mean for divorce reform and for predictions of fu­ ture filing behavior? It suggests that as men and women’s labor force income becomes more nearly equal, the difference in filing rates should disappear and will likely be determined by custody alone. The legal ram­ ifications of the no-fault variable are perhaps the most interesting. In the jurisdictions we studied, even taking into account the higher divorce fil­ ing rates, women take advantage of the no-fault option more than do their husbands.l’ From the woman’s perspective, repealing no-fault laws may cause harm as compared to passing reforms that will make marriages better.52

    However, if filing behavior is mostly driven by attempts to ex­ ploit the other partner through divorce, tougher laws may be socially more beneficial. Because the custody coefficients were the largest by far, fam­ ily law reformers may want to concentrate on formulating custody rules that will alter the spouses’ relative gains from marriage. The authors favor custody rules that replicate the patterns in marriage as closely as possible while giving each spouse a meaningful role (i.e., not zero) after divorce, as opposed to either a “winner takes all” rule like “maternal preference” or “primary caretaker” or a presumption of equal joint custody shares. A replication rule would not make either spouse better off divorced than during marriage (Altman, 1996). It might encourage the sharing of child­ rearing and other associated tasks, allowing more equal participation in the labor force.

  298. 298
    chigau (違う)

    olivercrangle
    Have you read the Boots paper yet?
    Can you find this

    “Because I Don’t Need Him”
    In this age of continuing independence for women in general, divorce often is an escape for women who simply do not want in a marriage anymore. Some women just don’t feel they need marriage any longer to feel complete or be successful, according to author and researcher Ashton Applewhite in his book “Cutting Loose: Why Women Who End Their Marriages Do So.”

    in the paper?

  299. 299
    olivercrangle

    Amphiox,

    So basically we have situation of women realizing that their marriage was a mistake from the beginning, and finding that the three biggest barriers that in the past kept women trapped in bad relationships – financial dependence, social stigma, and concern for the children, have thankfully been somewhat lowered, and that motivates them to choose divorce rather than stay in a bad relationship.

    And olivercrangle wants to equate this with utility, to present a false equivalence with this:

    What do you think utility means?

    In economics, utility is a representation of preferences over some set of goods and services.

    Your description of what the women goes through in making her calculation is precisely a description of a utility calculation.

    “I don’t stand to gain much from a divorce and I’d lose a great deal.”

    Even PZ understood that:

    “His response is to consider it, and to weigh the utility of a divorce.”

    Yes! Identical to how women do, how everyone does.

  300. 300
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Yawn, fuckwitted MRA is still a presuppositional evidenceless MRA who keeps pulling a txpiper, ignoring the real evidence and pretending something supports its presuppositions, and unevidenced and unauthoratative OPINION. Which means it has had nothing cogent to say ever….

    Care to play some more abject loser?

  301. 301
    olivercrangle

    chigau,

    my guess is that

    Because I Don’t Need Him”
    In this age of continuing independence for women in general, divorce often is an escape for women who simply do not want in a marriage anymore. Some women just don’t feel they need marriage any longer to feel complete or be successful, according to author and researcher Ashton Applewhite in his book “Cutting Loose: Why Women Who End Their Marriages Do So.”

    is in “book “Cutting Loose: Why Women Who End Their Marriages Do So”

    just as

    “”BECAUSE I’VE OUTGROWN HIM”
    Women today often decide to divorce their husbands because they have simply outgrown them, according to author Carol Ann Wilson in her book “ABCs of Divorce for Women.” Wilson, a professional counselor for women in financial issues, says that many more women are simply realizing that they have new career and personal growth opportunities. Wilson says that wives who married young especially develop new perspectives over the years, perspectives that outdistance their husbands’ ability to keep pace.” is in Carol Ann Wilson’s book.

    I presented a link to a magazine article that summarized findings from several sources.

    You are focusing on one study referenced by that magazine article.

    Perhaps instead of critiquing me or the magazine article’s writers for not reading, you should make sure you understand what is being said yourself.

  302. 302
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I presented a link to a magazine article that summarized findings from several sources.

    That isn’t the peer reviewed academic literature. Which means *POOF*, dismissed as fuckwittery. We are skeptical of everything you say, and everything you link to. Try again with real evidence and no-presuppositions….

  303. 303
    olivercrangle

    chigau, it’s more than 12 hours later, I wish you had come back to continue our conversation instead of running off like that.

    Same with you Amphiox, I was enjoying our dialogue.

    I don’t usually expect atheismplus groupies to have much intellectual honesty, but I’ve been clicking refresh a couple of times a minute for jeez, 17 hours, I mean, it would’ve been nice to have heard a rebuttal or concession.

  304. 304
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Oliver, people have lives. Lives that don’t revolve around talking to a whinay assbigot troll like you.

    I mean, seriously, admitting that you’re sitting refreshing every few seconds is way fucking creepy. Go get a life.

  305. 305
    ChasCPeterson

    You’re a fucking liar, Chas.

    have a nice day

    I have seen PZ acknowledge errors multiple times.

    Link two.

  306. 306
    olivercrangle

    *I mean, seriously, admitting that you’re sitting refreshing every few seconds is way fucking creepy. Go get a life.*

    You should get a sense of humor, and even learn to enjoy the humor and jokes people that disagree with you make. Otherwise soon, people will start saying feminists AND atheismplusers have no sense of humor.

    And yes, it might very well be that chigau who has been actively posting in other threads along (Amphiox too I believe) have lives and that is why they have not responded to my answers to questions they posed.

    Or it might be they simply have no answers and chose to bravely run away, bravely turned their tails and fled.

  307. 307
    quixotictendencies

    I’m so glad I stopped reading PZ a long time ago. Reactionary feminist bullshit has infested this place like so many angry, man-hating termites ever since Elevatorgate. I mean, fuck. Practically nobody in the comments seems to have seen fit to actually read the post. “Skeptics” indeed…

  308. 308
    Aratina Cage

    Of course, quixotictendencies is neither angry nor hateful nor attempting to get in the last word.

    *whistles breezily*

  309. 309
    Forbidden Snowflake

    I’m so glad I stopped reading PZ a long time ago.

    And I’m glad I never got to see your comment.
    :-D

    Reactionary feminist bullshit [blah blah blah]

    Do you know what the word “reactionary” means? And if so, what is this alleged “feminist bullshit” a reaction to?

  310. 310
    A. R

    Our dear friend quixotictendencies clearly needs to do some reading for themselves.

  311. 311
    A. R

    And if so, what is this alleged “feminist bullshit” a reaction to?

    Clearly, said bullshit is a feminist bull’s reaction to having a full rectum.

  312. 312
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Or it might be they simply have no answers and chose to bravely run away, bravely turned their tails and fled.

    You were soundly refuted. You just fail to acknowledge the truth.

    Lets check out MRA bingo for quixotictendencies:
    Stopped reading pharyngula, check
    Attitude, check
    Man-hating, check
    Feminists are evil, check
    Complains about our reding comprehension, check
    Presents not one iota of evidence to back up its assertions, check

    We have BINGO!

  313. 313
    Amphiox

    It claims have stopped reading PZ years ago, and yet here it is, reading enough to find and pollute this thread. Enough to search out and resurrect a zombie thread from the archives.

    Another hypocritical liar vividly answering the question that is the title of the thread.

  314. 314
    Amphiox

    olivercrangle was soundly and thoroughly refuted from its first odious post, and has not made a single worthwhile argument since. At this point, it doesn’t deserve to be engaged with anything other than point-and-spit.

  315. 315
    quixotictendencies

    Clearly I wasn’t linked here or anything. No, if I comment here I must be a regular reader.

    Nerd of Redhead:
    Stopped reading Pharyngula – Well, I did.
    Attitude – I get a bit annoyed, sue me.
    Man-hating – What do you call someone that consciously disregards all of the sexist bullshit men and boys are subject to?
    Feminists are evil – Did I say that? Plenty of Christian bullshit abounds, but I wouldn’t say “Christians are evil”. For one thing I try to not dehumanize my opponents.
    Complains about reading comprehension – Yeah, of the first hundred or so comments I read, none or barely any of them made reference to the fact that the post’s OP never once showed any antipathy towards his wife or her sex aside from the condescending tone of his little magazine aside. That he once indicated that he thought her “weak” or “inferior” was a lie. That he once indicated a lack of empathy for his wife… was a lie.
    Presents not one iota of evidence to back up its assertions – “It”? Really? Thanks for acknowledging I’m a human being. Anyway, I just have provided a good chunk of “evidence”, so complaint addressed.

  316. 316
    chigau (違う)

    On the interwebs it’s always Now™.

  317. 317
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Thanks for acknowledging I’m a human being. Anyway, I just have provided a good chunk of “evidence”, so complaint addressed.

    Ah, more MRA fuckwit BINGO:

    You think your OPINION is evidence. It isn’t. Your OPINION is considered utter an total bullshit without third party verification. Hypersketicism returned your way, treating you the same way you treat a women’s opnion. Try here for real evidence.

  318. 318
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Man-hating – What do you call someone that consciously disregards all of the sexist bullshit men and boys are subject to?

    A supporter of the patriarchy.

    This shit that men are supposed to act like men, be tough, by unemotional, be strong, etc, has contributed to the emotional breakdown of more than one person. And why are men expected to be tough, unemotional, strong, etc? Because of sexist bullshit created and maintained by a patriarchal society.

  319. 319
    Aratina Cage

    Stopped reading Pharyngula – Well, I did.

    I did. I really, really did. … Just now.

  320. 320
    Aratina Cage

    Attitude – I get a bit annoyed, sue me.

    “I’m so glad I stopped reading PZ a long time ago.” –Angry
    “Reactionary feminist bullshit has infested this place” –Angry
    “like so many angry, man-hating termites ever since Elevatorgate.” –Angry
    “I mean, fuck.” –Angry
    “Practically nobody in the comments seems to have seen fit to actually read the post. “Skeptics” indeed…” –So angry you can’t see clearly.

  321. 321
    markneil

    “Hypersketicism returned your way, treating you the same way you treat a women’s opnion.”

    Hmm. I wasn’t aware PZ was a woman. I’ll keep that in mind.

    I do note It’s now been over 2 weeks and PZ STILL hasn’t personally acknowledged or corrected his mistake regarding who works from home and who tends the kids, and the incorrect assumptions that he then projected onto all MRA’s. But PZ is becoming well known for his lack of intellectual integrity.

  322. 322
    Aratina Cage

    Man-hating – What do you call someone that consciously disregards conversations about women’s issues being derailed and dominated by all of the sexist bullshit men and boys are subject to?

    FTFY. How can you call that “man-hating”? *shakes head*

  323. 323
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I do note It’s now been over 2 weeks and PZ STILL hasn’t personally acknowledged or corrected his mistake regarding who works from home and who tends the kids, and the incorrect assumptions that he then projected onto all MRA’s. But PZ is becoming well known for his lack of intellectual integrity.

    Compared to your lack of intellectual integrity? Trying to make a mountain out of nothing since post 1.

  324. 324
    markneil

    “Compared to your lack of intellectual integrity? Trying to make a mountain out of nothing since post 1.”

    Hey, it’s you guys own rules to acknowledge mistakes made. If you aren’t even willing to follow your own rules, especially when the article is based upon the mistake, that clearly falls into the realm of intellectual dishonesty. When he argues “this guy is an asshole because he dumps all the work on the wife while he goes out and works”, when the facts present clearly shows he does not do that, as she is the one that goes out and works, this is not an insignificant mistake. But this has already been discussed, and I was told I was being unreasonable to have expected him to acknowledge his mistake in only a day. Now it has been longer and he’s still failed to follow his own rules.

    PS: the “I know you are but what am I?” defense doesn’t inspire much faith in your ability to hold an honest, mature discussion.

  325. 325
    Nepenthe

    Hey Nerd, have you seen the new MRA bingo game that David Futrelle has put out? It’s nifty.

  326. 326
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    defense doesn’t inspire much faith in your ability to hold an honest, mature discussion.

    Nor does your continued nagging of PZ, which is very immature. Which is what I find very amusing. Those most decrying lack of mature discussion behave in very immature ways.

  327. 327
    olivercrangle

    That’s pretty funny Amphiox.

    At 299 and 303 I asked you a very easy question, which since you had no answer to, you fled for two weeks. And now you come back like any good atheist plus member to wish ill of me and spit on me.

    Congrats, you are as much an Internet Tough Guy and Mensch az PZ.

  328. 328
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I asked you a very easy [fuckwitted and inane] question,

    Fixed that for you fuckwitted idjit. Still nothing showing you have anything valid and evidenced to back up your fuckwittery than your OPINION, which is *POOF* dismissed for what it is, bullshit.

  329. 329
    quixotictendencies

    Nerd of Redhead: At no point did the OP of the linked post say that his wife was “weak” or “inferior”, nor did he imply anything approaching these things. If you think that he did, I invite you to direct me to whichever section of his post seems to offend. The onus to provide proof is on you, given that you are the one making the positive claim. I take it you still remember this rule of debate from back when Pharyngula used to discuss atheism?

    Nerd of Redhead (2): I had and still have no inkling what sex or gender you are, and I don’t actually give a toss. You may view MRAs as all or mostly sexist pigs who want to whine about getting their privileges stripped from them and who will suffer no woman’s opinion to darken the doorstep of their circlejerk, but you would be entirely mistaken. In fact, this attitude is much more common in reverse among feminists, especially of the variety you find in this area of the blogosphere.

    Ogvorbis: Blaming the oppression of men on men… Aside from the fact that it’s bullshit, as women as often reinforce masculine stereotypes as men do, it’s victim blaming. That, I was led to believe, was verboten in feminist circles. Guess not.

    Aratina Cage: This post was about how PZ Myers believes that the MRM is vacuous poppycock. In this scenario, talking about women’s issues would be derailment. Men’s issues are perfectly on-topic, unless you think that every discussion about sexism has to revolve around how very oppressed women are.

  330. 330
    olivercrangle

    “Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I asked you a very easy [fuckwitted and inane] question,

    Fixed that for you fuckwitted idjit. Still nothing showing you have anything valid and evidenced to back up your fuckwittery than your OPINION, which is *POOF* dismissed for what it is, bullshit.”

    Hey PZ, one of the flayrods gone skew on treadle.

  331. 331
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Hey PZ, one of the flayrods gone skew on treadle.

    Look in the mirror for that description…

    By the way, it is from a quote by Christopher Hitchens: “That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”

    You may view MRAs as all or mostly sexist pigs who want to whine about getting their privileges stripped from them and who will suffer no woman’s opinion to darken the doorstep of their circlejerk, but you would be entirely mistaken.

    For example, this piece of OPINION. *Poof* dismissed. Typical of MRAs, unsubstantiated claims and attitude….

  332. 332
    anteprepro

    You may view MRAs as all or mostly sexist pigs who want to whine about getting their privileges stripped from them and who will suffer no woman’s opinion to darken the doorstep of their circlejerk, but you would be entirely mistaken.

    Citation needed. Evidence thoroughly supports that they are whining, sexist pigs who ignore their own privilege by pretending that they have it just as bad (or worse) compared to women. Are you just denying that they ignore women’s opinions? Because that is, indeed, only partially correct. They will ignore the opinions of women that are inconsistent with their own opinions. They will gleefully grab onto the opinions of a woman that happen to support their own prejudices, however.

    Blaming the oppression of men on men… Aside from the fact that it’s bullshit, as women as often reinforce masculine stereotypes as men do, it’s victim blaming.

    Not victim blaming because no one is saying that the men “have it coming”. The conclusion isn’t that they have what is coming and should suffer. The conclusion is that everyone suffers from patriarchy, even those that ostensibly benefit from it, and we should move beyond it. The fact that women reinforce masculine stereotypes is no more relevant than the fact that women reinforce feminine stereotypes as well. THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE TAUGHT TO DO. Same as the men. The fact of the matter is that, regardless, men are the ones who come out on top. Men are the ones given the power. Men are the ones that use that power to reinforce the belief that they deserve power, getting men to pick on women as lesser, getting men and women to pick on insufficiently masculine men, and to bat down overly masculine women.

    And don’t even fool yourself into thinking that men don’t have most or all of the power still. See here. Women make up 17% of federal legislators, 23% of state legislators, 12% of governors, 8% of mayors of our largest cities, and a whopping 0% of presidents and vice presidents throughout U.S. history. Men have the force of law. Women make up 13% of law enforcement, and 14% of military. Oh, and surprise surprise, law enforcement and the military are hell for women who actually are involved in it. Not because delicate ladies can’t handle crime or war, but because they are discriminated against by their superiors and comrades, and because there is a high incidence of rape by those same people with a low incidence of people actually doing shit about it.

    Fuck you for denying all of this. It is readily available information for anyone who doesn’t just want to whine about feminists, as if they were a powerful, influential force for Evil in a society where 80% of our politicians and 85% of our armed officials are male.

  333. 333
    Aratina Cage

    Aratina Cage: This post was about how PZ Myers believes that the MRM is vacuous poppycock. In this scenario, talking about women’s issues would be derailment. Men’s issues are perfectly on-topic, unless you think that every discussion about sexism has to revolve around how very oppressed women are.

    Oh gag me, not you again? Remind me, why are you so angry, quixotictendencies?

  334. 334
    quixotictendencies

    Nerd of Redhead: What I did was make a crack at guessing your beliefs about the MRM, and then, as someone who is involved in it, inform you that if you do hold those beliefs about it, they are wrong. Of course it’s just going to be my opinion of it pitted against yours without you actually finding evidence to back your positive claims, although as one actually involved in discussions in the MRM as opposed to merely angrily jeering at snippets linked by PZ et al, my opinion might be a tad more informed than yours. Please provide your evidence so that we may discuss it, otherwise this entire exchange is pointless and I will not be participating any further. In the latter eventuality, good day.

    anteprepro: As I have above stated, the onus to provide evidence is on the person making the accusations. In the many discussions I have had with MRAs, the overwhelming impression I have been left with is that most are simply egalitarians, annoyed with the complete neglect by the feminist movement of all men’s issues, so that women’s rights gain more and more ground, rapidly destroying the inequities that hurt them, while the disadvantages men face are entirely unaddressed and therefore unresolved.

    anteprepro (2): See the “rape victim could have avoided it by doing A, B, and C” argument. Few people would say that the rape victim had it coming because s/he failed to do A, B, and C, but it is still victim blaming, is it not?

    anteprepro (3): Your statistics show that overwhelmingly the people with the power are male, but that is different from “men have the power”. Most men, just like most women, have no power. The difference between the average powerless man and the average powerless woman is how the people in power treat them, and there are many areas in which the people in power treat men much worse than women. FInally, as an aside, fuck you too.

    Aratina Cage: Are you confusing verbosity for ire? That’s the only reason I can think of that you would keep bleating on about how “angry” I am.

  335. 335
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    otherwise this entire exchange is pointless and I will not be participating any further.

    Good, you had nothing to say anyway, other than angry attitude.

    yours without you actually finding evidence to back your positive claims,

    Sorry, the burden of evidence is always on you. You provide nothing of evidence, typical of MRA fuckwits, who are angry and think their OPINION is evidence. Why can’t you MRA fuckwits cite something from Google Scholar to back your POSITIVE CLAIMS THAT YOU ARE VICTIMIZED? Oh, that’s right, the victimization only occurs between your ears.

  336. 336
    quixotictendencies

    Nerd of Redhead: Are you really that blind? Men are eligible to be shipped off to die if the country needs soldiers, and women are not. Men are hugely overrepresented in the prison population. Prison rape victims, which make up the majority of rape victims, are almost universally men, and are subject to complete apathy and often mockery by the general population. Many states have laws on the books that say flatly that men cannot be raped, offering male rape victims in those states no legal recourse. Men are discriminated against in custody battles as well as divorce proceedings. Men make up the majority of domestic abuse victims. False rape accusations rarely go punished, and even when a man is falsely accused and wins his case, his life is often ruined anyway. There are many more ways in which men are discriminated against, but the nub is this: Regardless of whether there were one or a thousand examples of men facing discrimination, it/they go almost completely uncommented on by feminism. The MRM is necessary not because feminism is evil and must be fought against, but because feminism is, by its very nature, not equipped to deal with sexism on both sides of the road.

    As an aside, you may want to stop using the word “fuckwit”. It’s rather unbecoming for one to use the same insult ad nauseam, and it doesn’t do anything to support your continual assertion that I am incredibly angry and you are not.

  337. 337
    Anthony K

    Prison rape victims, which make up the majority of rape victims, are almost universally men, and are subject to complete apathy and often mockery by the general population.

    Big news in the fight against prison rape. MRAs oblivious.

  338. 338
    Rutee Katreya

    Nerd of Redhead: Are you really that blind? Men are eligible to be shipped off to die if the country needs soldiers

    A: No you aren’t. You are in 0 danger of being drafted. The USA will not even permit taxes for its foreign ventures anymore. Domestic defense isn’t going to happen until science fiction cancels nukes. You will not go to war against your will.

    B: The fact that you used to be draftable is a class benefit to men. Soldiering isn’t a bad job for the poor, and it being denied to women, despite women being in just as much danger (You can read diaries of soldiers in ages past who’ve gone through more wives and children than any of us care to count, because those wives and children keep dying in what could be referred to as the supply train; now, of course, there’s total war) is… unhelpful to say the least.

    Mind, the benefits of this class benefit are most certainly skewed more heavily towards the rich and powerful, who reap more of the political benefits and pay less of the costs, but even poor men benefited more than poor women from this arrangement. In modern terms… men, naturally, are the beneficiaries of the GI bill in greater numbers, f’rex.

    Men are hugely overrepresented in the prison population.

    And commit the majority of the violent crimes. Not sure on drug offenses.

    Many states have laws on the books that say flatly that men cannot be raped,

    http://www1.law.umkc.edu/suni/CrimLaw/calendar/proposed_statutes_2003.htm

    None of the MPC teams’ definitions is gender specific.

    Mind, states lagging behind or intentionally ignoring the MPC is normal, but I suspect it’s not many states, in this case; After all, most will want to at least have the option to prosecute male on male or female on female rape.

    Prison rape victims, which make up the majority of rape victims,

    Blatant falsehood. Roughly 16% of all women in the USA, and 20% of all male prisoners in the USA, are raped. The population of all women in the USA is considerably higher than the population of male prisoners in the USA.

    http://tpj.sagepub.com/content/80/4/379.short
    http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

    Men are discriminated against in custody battles as well as divorce proceedings

    Men win approximately 40% of custody battles they contest, and considerably fewer than 40% of all men are primary caretakers for children in their relationships; guess what courts use to decide custody in most of the USA. This is the first I’ve heard of divorce proceedings, in toto, being biased against men, and I’d need to see a cite.

    False rape accusations rarely go punished,

    This is untrue. When they’re demonstrated to be false, they’re generally punished with greater vigor. Also, ‘false accusation of rape’ is fairly rare.

    nd even when a man is falsely accused and wins his case, his life is often ruined anyway

    You mean like Duke Lacrosse, where nobody remembers the defendants, but the victim and prosecutors are? An acquaintance put it best; these people were at worst mildly inconvenienced.

    There are many more ways in which men are discriminated against,

    Not really.

    Regardless of whether there were one or a thousand examples of men facing discrimination, it/they go almost completely uncommented on by feminism.

    Well, as most of the ones you just mentioned are made up, that’s true, but where they exist, they actually are. Feminists, for instance, have looked at why men are much more likely to commit violent offenses at all, and found the ways in which masculinity as its exemplified in our culture could cause that. Feminists have addressed the lack of shelters for male victims of rape. Feminists are one of the groups calling for the end of the draft (ceremonial, in modern western countries, but still), and for the gender equality of the draft.

    If an issue might actually help men due to masculinity/femininity bullshit, it’s more likely feminists will do something than ‘Mens Rights’ losers. Y’all can’t do anything, because you’re a weak, fake movement that just exists to make yourselves feel better.

    As an aside, you may want to stop using the word “fuckwit”.

    You may want to stop being part of a ‘me too’ movement that apes civil rights while trying to protect the sheltered, privileged majority.

  339. 339
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Blaming the oppression of men on men

    No, I blame the oppression of men on the patriarchal society in which we live that tells men they can only act in certain ways.

  340. 340
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    As an aside, you may want to stop using the word “fuckwit”. It’s rather unbecoming for one to use the same insult ad nauseam, and it doesn’t do anything to support your continual assertion that I am incredibly angry and you are not.

    No, it demonstrates my compempt for your lack of thought process. For example, not one citation in your post, despite it being pointed out the best way to show your OPINION is “this is what I think, and this (link) is the evidence to back it up”. So you avoid making it about evidence and just present unevidenced OPINION. Ergo *POOF* dismissed as pure OPINION and fuckwittery. Why are MRA types so averse to actually citing the literature? [/rhetorical]

    In other words, stop talking, start pointing to real evidence….

  341. 341
    Rutee Katreya

    Why are MRA types so averse to actually citing the literature?

    Ooh, Ooh, I know this one!

    [/rhetorical]

    …awwww…. *kicks dirt*

  342. 342
    Tethys

    Men make up the majority of domestic abuse victims.

    Here on planet reality, 85% of the victims of domestic abuse are women.

    source pdf

  343. 343
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Tethys:

    Just think of the damage to the abuser’s hands!

  344. 344
    Tethys

    Another well evidenced statistic for the fuckwitted troll from the same pdf.

    One in 6 women and 1 in 33 men have experienced an attempted or completed rape.

  345. 345
    Tethys

    Og

    I am not up for researching where the MRA’s get their twisted facts, but that sounds about right.

  346. 346
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Tethys:

    I meant it as sick and dark humour, but you may not be far off in your assessment.

  347. 347
    Rutee Katreya

    Tethys isn’t far off, no. They usually use measures of DV that count self defense as… more DV.

  348. 348
    anteprepro

    In the many discussions I have had with MRAs, the overwhelming impression I have been left with is that most are simply egalitarians, annoyed with the complete neglect by the feminist movement of all men’s issues,

    So I was right when I said “Evidence thoroughly supports that they are whining, sexist pigs who ignore their own privilege by pretending that they have it just as bad (or worse) compared to women.” I just neglected to mention that they use a naive “egalitarianism” as their excuse. Basically like the people who whine about the Reverse Racism of affirmative action by saying that, by giving people who suffered from discrimination a bit of a leg up, they aren’t being sufficiently egalitarian.

    See the “rape victim could have avoided it by doing A, B, and C” argument. Few people would say that the rape victim had it coming because s/he failed to do A, B, and C, but it is still victim blaming, is it not?

    No, that is exactly the implication of bringing up “they could have avoided it”. That they could have done something to prevent it. That they did something, personally, to “provoke” it. Men in a patriarchal culture, individually, when they suffer from the sexist standards of the patriarchy that they may or may not reinforce, couldn’t have actually done anything to prevent it. They contribute to the problem, but they couldn’t have themselves stopped it, and they would have been “the victim” even if they tried to stop it. Because culture is more than one person’s actions.

    Your statistics show that overwhelmingly the people with the power are male, but that is different from “men have the power”.

    Wow. You such are a pathetic, clueless quibbler. It is sufficient to you to show that virtually every position of power is disproportionately filled by men, because there are many without that power (and even more women, but overlook that!).

    The difference between the average powerless man and the average powerless woman is how the people in power treat them, and there are many areas in which the people in power treat men much worse than women.

    I would say citation needed, but every example that you’ve managed to come up has been nuked already by other commenters.

    I love the MRAs that pretend that MRM is perfectly sensible and innocuous. Scratch the surface just a little, and you find the same old clueless assholes as the typical blatantly misogynistic MRAs.

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