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Jun 26 2012

Thunderf00t replies

I’ll confine myself to addressing just two points in his rebuttal.

  1. He accuses me of strawmanning his argument by claiming that he’s taking a black and white view of anti-harassment policies — that they should be either do-nothing or full-weight-of-the-law. He now explains that that’s not the case, he endorses using all kinds of intermediate levels of enforcement.

    Then I’m left wondering exactly what the point of his outrage was? That makes it sound as if he’s agreeing totally with what many of us are saying: we want these policies in place because they offer women recourse and support. Richard Carrier has very carefully laid out the intent and function of these policies. Perhaps Thunderf00t can read that and clarify whether he disagrees or not? Because his current posts try to have it both ways.

  2. Speaking of strawmanning an argument, here’s a beautiful example.

    IT WAS IN A BAR. I enjoyed it, she enjoyed it (she left a comment specifically saying so, just to remove all doubt (see MyLegMYCHOICE!)), AND I NEVER HAD TO CONSULT HER, NOR APPLY FOR PERMISSION FROM THE CONFERENCE, IN ORDERS SIGNED IN TRIPLICATE SENT IN, SENT BACK AND BURIED IN SOFT PEAT FOR THREE MONTHS AND RECYCLED AS FIRELIGHTERS etc etc. Indeed had I had to fill in the paperwork along with ‘permission to bite your leg in a horseplay photo’ form under conference interpersonal contact rule 144 b) 2, it would have probably kinda killed the moment, and neither I nor she would have got our mild thrills for the night. It’s boys n girls have fun in bars!

    I said precisely the opposite. These are situations where I agree — nobody is saying you have to fill out forms to play, and it would be ridiculous to do so. However, it’s also problematic. He doesn’t feel he ever had to consult her? What?

    I have heard this complaint many times. A woman goes to a bar at a meeting because she wants a drink, she wants to join in the conversation (because that’s where a lot of the informal talk goes on), and discovers that there are guys there with this attitude that groping is now permitted because the only reason that “girls” are there is to “have fun in bars”. Some women are there to flirt and enjoy a little horseplay…many are not.

    This really is the problem. You need to interact with people first to discover if they’re fellow companions out in the spirit of a little physical fun (you don’t need to formally ask; I presume in this case there were cues to say it was OK), and you cannot assume that every person there is willing to have you fondle them. Especially at a skeptics/atheist conference, where people sign up to learn about a philosophical/social position.

    Surprise. There are a lot of women who go to these meetings to be taken seriously and discuss serious topics, and have zero interest in having their legs grabbed. Not even in the bar.


Molly Rene has some choice words for people who confuse bars with brothels.

611 comments

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  1. 501
    Deen

    @pentatomid:

    You name it, christianity has got it.

    Don’t forget real political influence over some of the richest nations on the planet.

  2. 502
    skeptifem

    I do NOT trust them with The Bomb.
    I don’t think the world can risk that. Do you?

    They would have to be fucking stupid not to notice the correlation between having nukes and NOT getting invaded/fucked with by the west.

    No one wants them to have a bomb, but I don’t know how its okay for us to have one either. The US has been negligent in the use and TESTING of nukes even, causing sickness and death for american citizens as well as native people (in nevada, southern utah, and the bikini islands). That is nothing compared to the damages against citizens in japan from hiroshima and nagasaki. How do you think people from there would feel, hearing you say how untrustworthy other countries are with nuclear weapons? Is there any country that can always be trusted with nuclear bombs, or is it just a fantasy that makes you feel better?

    The way you irrationally refuse to examine the actions of your own country using the same standards you apply to others should be a clue for you- everyone thinks they are the good guys and the other ones aren’t. You need to take the blinders off in order to understand the world that US foreign policy has created for everyone else in the world.

  3. 503
    skeptifem

    Don’t forget real political influence over some of the richest nations on the planet.

    christian ideas about the environment and resources are really fucking up the world right now, for sure. I’ve had it up to here with people saying “god gave us dominion over everything, he wouldn’t let us run out before the rapture.”

  4. 504
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    So let me get this straight.

    Western countries, for just about 50 years (i.e. post-colonialism, which was it’s own oppressive kettle of fish), have been running around the ME, propping up dictators who brutalized the people, empowered corporations to steal the greatest natural resource of the region, and either encouraged or turned a blind eye to human rights abuses.

    Like many peoples in sucky situations, many Middle Easterners (aside: “Middle Eastern” is not synonymous with “Arab.” Also, Iran is not Arab. Like, at all.) turned to an extreme version of their religion – in this case Islam – because the extremists offered something other than acquiescence to a shitty situation.

    The extremists proceeded to act like well, extremists, but also worked to deliver some basic goods and services to their constituency (for example, Hamas funds free day care and kindergarten in their territory inside Palestine), thus earning some loyalty, however grudging, from the moderates.

    Conclusion: ZOMG THE MOOSLIMS ARE EBIL. ALSO, 9/11. KILL THEM ALL!

    Um, what?

    Want to decrease the power of the extremists? Stop giving them an angry population on a fucking platter.

  5. 505
    Rutee Katreya

    Jihadists attack innocent people aggressively. The USA and for that matter Israel and its other allies defend innocent people and target those who are trying to attack them.

    None of which matters to the thousands of brown civilians we’ve killed over the course of our war on terror, nor those who survive them. Israel can’t even pretend to target civilians anymore, you reaaaally do not want to try to defend their government.

    Except for the fact that Iran is trying to get nukes and has made it plain it wants to use them – you know all that “Death to America, Great and Lesser Satans” bile chanted daily in the squares of Tehran.

    So is “Shut the fuck up, I’m trying to get to work”, you racist know nothing.

    Plus it isn’t just about the USA, Israel has been facing Jihadist threats of genocide since it was declared independent in 1948.

    Israel makes fucking concentration camps for its citizens, while invoking the holocaust as justification. If it were still 1948, I’d maybe be concerned about them, but it’s not, and I really ain’t.

    Also, please fucking tell me you are talking about the war with egypt, in which case you may want fucking read something about that war.

    Yowser, Ruteekatreya, is your anti-Amercian, anti-Western bias and bigotry ever showing herefucking !

    It’s extraordinarily difficult to be bigoted against white people as an aggregate, because white people face almost no systematic structures oriented against them, if any at all. You can fuck yourself though; what next, concern over ‘reverse racism’? There’s

    So much wrong I don’t know where to begin. It wasn’t just 9-11 2001 but a metric shit-tonne of other Jihadist terrorism over many decades including the 1970′s PLO and other Palestinian attacks and plane hijackings,

    You seriously want to talk Palestine. Do you know what Israel does to the palestinians, you fucking moron? Do you really think they’re as motivated by ‘jihaddist sentiment’ as they are by fucking “I WANT TO LIVE WITHOUT THREAT OF EXTERMINATION OR IMPRISONMENT BY MY GOVERNMENT”? Yeah, some palestinians have engaged in terrorist acts, but you really don’t understand the situation if you are talking about that being jihad the way you mean it (Though I’m sure that word has been used to discuss a struggle primarily motivated by self defense).

    Then the USA “called for oceans of blood” did it? Really? Citations seriously fucking needed. Which president? When?

    That’d be Bush the Lesser when he invaded Iraq on flimsy pretenses, as well as Obama’s undeclared wars via drone bombings. Also, the american public at large. You do realize we’ve had asswipes who want to just wipe the region off the map entirely, right? Fuck, you asswipe, I had kids at my school singing “Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iraq”, to the tune of “Barbara Ann”.

    The USA doesn’t hate nations the way the Arab world does

    Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iraq…. not to mention this scaremongering you’re doing over iran. But hey, USians and the US never hates country. Not like that brown arab world. That’s why when we call them an existential threat, it’s okay.

    it recognises its enemies existence and rights and is even willing to hand their lands back to them postwars (Eg. Japan, Germany, Iraq)

    You mean after it replaces the current government in power with one sympathetic to its interests, regardless of whether it was legitimately elected or not? I shed no tears over the Nazis or the Nationalists being replaced, but you are grossly misrepresenting what happened there in both cases. And I wouldn’t really call either Japan or Germany unoccupied (though the US shared Germany with 3 other nations). And You’re aware the US wrote the Japanese constitution, right?

    Also, that is completely normal. Actual conquest doesn’t drive that many of the wars in the previous century, so it’s not usually the done thing for a war. Fuck, even Japan didn’t DoW the US to conquer it; it DoW’d the US to force them to break their Iron embargo.

    unlike Islamic nations that refuse to even accept the Jewish state exists

    Like how Egypt just wanted the Sinai peninsula, because that was all it had a legitimate claim to? Not that I really care who owns Sinai, but were you not counting them? What about Turkey, who allied with Israel for decades? Do they count? Ooo, or Indonesia and Malaysia, whom care considerably less about Israel than any of us do. Fuckwit.

    Are you really, seriously so fucking ignorant as to make that ridiculous a claim with a straight face?

    …Those were done by 5 different groups with 6 different agendas, none of which were by a state, and you want to seriously raise the proposal to go to war? What do you think war fucking is? And how do you seriously hold that up to several times the deaths of civilians inflicted by the US government?

    Then you have the gall to accuse me of being a bad person and a “islamophobic bigot”

    It’s easy; you’re a racist idiot.

    who do all that and stop them before they do more and worse. Fuck you Ruteekatreya with one of those dead porcupines. Fuck you.
    Considering you’re smokescreening for shit like concentration camps and war crimes… feel my apathy at your disdain

    - in the late 90′s to free Bosnia and Kosovo from the Sebian “ethnic cleansers”

    A UN-lead intervention, thus placing it firmly outside of US control. Good try though, actually.

    WWII is certainly a prime example of a just war but it is far from the only case. The West fought justified wars for instance

    - in 1991 to free Kuwait from Iraqi Occupation. (Worst mistake there was not continuing on to topple Saddam back then.)
    …A saddam we armed, thus placing it firmly under ‘pointless’. Cleaning up our own messes is not a particularly praiseworthy trait.

    - in the early 1980′s to free the Falkland Islands from the Argentinean invaders.

    The falklands sole purpose is extending the zone that britain can call its territorial waters. Pointless. Also, do you know where the falklands fucking *are*? Well, you’re australian, not meriken, so you may. Especially since the whole thing was penis waving by two right wing parties.

    The Cold War overall was justified

    You have got to be fucking kidding me. Massive offenses on the rights of its own citizenry were ‘justified’ by a threat that never manifested itself seriously? Not that that was a war… Unjustified. Although that sort of does inform your claims regarding Israel. Guess you’re not just a racist, but also a fascist!

    as was the Korean war among others.

    Our intervention drew chinese intervention. Pointless. It was to back an oppressive, fascist asshole in the South, because he wasn’t communist, unlike the oppressive, communist asshole in the North. Unjustified. GJ there, I was hoping you’d nail one that was both.

    Death threats against those you disagree with on politics are cool here now?

    The point is so far over your head that the only thing keeping it in earth’s atmosphere is that it hasn’t reached escape velocity.

    its human rights,freedoms and opportunities

    torture, indefinite detention … the torture of children, and other war crimes

    and more diverse groups of people and the way it has developed science and so much more.

    We have both kinds of white; Spanish and everyone else.

    and I do think the Western way is scientifically proven to work better than other cultural ways

    Well, it does for white dudes who are straight, able bodied, and neurotypical.

    Western civilisation isn’t perfect and still has a way to go in some areas but we’re far better than the alternatives as demonstrated by the nations where people wish to live.

    You’re defending the USA, not Germany, right now, remember?

    The USA is the leader of the Western or Free world which includes countries like Australia and Japan and the Netherlands.

    Japan is western. Really. Also, ‘free world’ doesn’t make sense anymore; the cold war ended 23 years ago.

    The USA has done some things wrong sure, but trying to destory it by Jihadist violence is NOT the way to right those wrongs or make things just or better.

    Yeah, and in a world where those people actually had power that might be a stirring point. In the real world, where this sentiment is really just fueling more deaths of people for the high crime of being born into a muslim society, I’m not really convinced.

    ecause Israel almost certainly though not officially has nukes and may use them as a last restort to defend itself if it is attacked by Iran?

    Do you hear the rhetoric that comes out of Israel’s fundamentalists? I don’t think they’re going to nuke IRan either, but on what grounds do you figure Iran is super scary to ISrael that doesn’t apply to Israel nuking IRan?

  6. 506
    Amphiox

    Jihadists attack innocent people aggressively. The USA and for that matter Israel and its other allies defend innocent people and target those who are trying to attack them.

    I think the USA, Israel, and modern democracies in general should be expected to hold themselves to a slightly higher standard than “a little bit better than terrorists.”.

  7. 507
    Amphiox

    Except for the fact that Iran is trying to get nukes and has made it plain it wants to use them

    This argument is completely irrelevant because, you know, there’s more than one way of preventing Iran from getting nukes.

  8. 508
    Rutee Katreya

    The USA doesn’t hate nations the way the Arab world does

    Oh, my kingdom for an edit button; 2 seconds after I post the last one, I realize what a fucking coup this point would be for you.

    You do realize that the ‘arab world’, to the extent it hates the US, is specifically targetting the people who project imperial power onto them. The US hates a sizable portion of the population of two continents for living in close proximity to people it decided to fuck with, and you think this is a point against muslims, and not the USA.

    I mean, that’s pretending that the US doesn’t hate countries, which is fucking laughable…

  9. 509
  10. 510
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    I think we should launch preemptive drone strikes against stevor and anyone who talks like him before they terrorize us any more with this profound ignorance and bloodthirsty racism. It would be self defense.

  11. 511
    pentatomid

    Wait… Israel is only defending innocent people…
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Oh come on, StevoR, how ignorant are you exactly. You might wanna look into the reality of the situation a bit. Israel is not the defender of the innocent. Israel is an agressor. It just so happens that the US are on its side.

    And, yeah, Iran wants nukes, which isn’t exactly a thought I’m comfortable with either. But ‘Iran’ does not equal ‘muslims’ or ‘the arab world’.

    Fuck, you’re dense.

  12. 512
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Jesus fuck, Iran is not an Arab country.

    Arab is an ethnicity. While there are Arabs living in Iran, they are a minority. The majority of Iranians are ethnically Persian.

    FWIW, Arabs are also a minority of Muslims. Also, not all Arabs are Muslim. A significant number are Christian, Druze, Baha’i, and (yes) Jewish.

    These fun facts are brought to you by shit that I learned in 30 seconds on Wikipedia.

    While you are a moron, Stevor, getting such basic facts wrong makes you look like even more of a moron.

  13. 513
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Rutee

    I heard a warning that Superdickery potentially hosts malware. Is it possible to mirror images elsewhere?

  14. 514
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @skeptifem – 28 June 2012 at 10:37 am :

    No one wants them to have a bomb, but I don’t know how its okay for us to have one either.

    Secular and sorta rational vs Jihadist and not.

    Big difference.

    Or how about supporting crazy terrorists versus fighting those terrorists?

    Or how about too late now to prevent the USA getting The Bomb versus not too late yet to stop Iran getting it?

    Is there any country that can always be trusted with nuclear bombs, or is it just a fantasy that makes you feel better?

    Bhutan maybe?

    Or perhaps Luxemborg or San Marino?

    Assume for the sake of argument that irrational humans generally can’t be trusted with The Bomb.

    Surely the corollary to that then is that is that if any humans have to have The Bomb then the fewer the better and the more pro-rationality the better?

    The way you irrationally refuse to examine the actions of your own country using the same standards you apply to others should be a clue for you- everyone thinks they are the good guys and the other ones aren’t.

    My country is Australia. Yes, I’m a patriot. No I don’t think we’re perfect. Yeah, bias and favouring your own side esp. over those who want you dead is part of the human condition.

    But does that mean you think Australia and Iran are morally equivalent? Really? You’d say a democracy and a totalitarian Islamic dictatorship should be treated as ethically identical ignoring the rather pertinant fact that that ain’t so? Sheesh!

    You need to take the blinders off in order to understand the world that US foreign policy has created for everyone else in the world.

    Has it occurred to you that you might be wearing some blinders of your own? Anti-American or more broadly anti-western and maybe even Judeaophobic / Anti-Semitic ones mayhaps?

    Ask yourself -would ourather, on average be living in a Werstern land or a non-Westernesp. islamic one?

  15. 515
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain – 28 June 2012 at 1:03 pm :

    The extremists proceeded to act like well, extremists, but also worked to deliver some basic goods and services to their constituency (for example, Hamas funds free day care and kindergarten in their territory inside Palestine), thus earning some loyalty, however grudging, from the moderates.

    Ohhh-kaay, so the fact that Hamas funds kindergartens is supposed to outweigh the fact that their goal is genocide against the Jewish State? Plus the fact they are terrorists who keep firing rockets at people and committing appalling acts of murder and barbarism and, did I mention, their whole raison d’etre is exterminating another people from the planet entirely? Really?

    I don’t think so.

    Want to decrease the power of the extremists? Stop giving them an angry population on a fucking platter.

    Too late. The Jihadists already hate us and are deciated to slaughtering us all.

    What do we do about it? Try to appease them? Or fight back?

    Want o convert toIslam or get killed?

    Or would you rather live as a reasonable free human being?

    I opt for the latter. You?

  16. 516
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ruteekatreya – 28th June 2012 at 1:30 pm :

    Israel can’t even pretend to target civilians anymore, you reaaaally do not want to try to defend their government.

    Well first off that first part is a straight out Israelophobic lie.

    Secondly, fuck yeah! I’d fucken well infinitely prefer to argue the case for Israel than the case for Hamas and Hizbollah and the PLO! (or ‘A’ same diff.)

    Guess you disagree and would prefer to argue for the genocide against the Jewish State. What then does that make you and whose company are you keeping? You proud of that?

    Yeah, I am going there. Also fuck you with a dead and rotting and especially spiky porcupine sideways you anti-Israeli, fucking Judaeophobic bigot.

    “Except for the fact that Iran is trying to get nukes and has made it plain it wants to use them – you know all that “Death to America, Great and Lesser Satans” bile chanted daily in the squares of Tehran.” -StevoR.
    So is “Shut the fuck up, I’m trying to get to work”, you racist know nothing.

    So “trying to work” = exactly “Death to Israel / USA!”
    To you. Rii-iight.

    Yeah those two sentences have exactly the same kind of meaning. (Eyeroll.) Oh wait, newsflash to the bigot, NO they fucken don’t. One is calling for mass genocide, the other isn’t. You can’t tell the difference? Yet you somehow claim *I’m* a bad person! Whoah!

  17. 517
    John Morales

    StevoR:

    Too late. The Jihadists already hate us and are deciated to slaughtering us all.

    Bah.

    The Jihadists have seen what happened in Iraq and in Afghanistan.

    They can niggle, but have no hope whatsoever of winning by force of arms.

    What do we do about it? Try to appease them? Or fight back?

    You really are naive; all the posturing is for political gain — enemies are handy things.

    Want o convert toIslam or get killed?

    Real worry, that! ;)

  18. 518
    John Morales

    [meta]

    StevoR to ruteekatreya:

    Guess you disagree and would prefer to argue for the genocide against the Jewish State. What then does that make you and whose company are you keeping? You proud of that?

    You sink to rhetorical depths so blithely yet so foolishly!

  19. 519
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I see islamophobic paranoid bigoted fuckwit can’t shut the fuck up. All it does is show its irrational paranoia, and changes nobodies mind. Because it is lacking a rational mind. It may as well STFU on the topic of Islam. Nobody here will follow its paranoid ravings, merely mock them.

  20. 520
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    Continued – @ruteek the Judaeophobe – 28th June 2012 at 1:30 pm :

    Israel makes fucking concentration camps for its citizens, while invoking the holocaust as justification. If it were still 1948, I’d maybe be concerned about them, but it’s not, and I really ain’t.

    Oh what a surprise – you’re an anti-Semite. Never would ghave guessed. /sarcasm

    Also do you ever stop lying and engage with reality?

    Israeli citizens live in concentartion camps? Ya reckon?

    Funny, how the Israeli citizens keep voting for a government that does thatand I guess the Israeli Prime Minister and President being Israeli citizens must live there too, huh? Weird that they’d do that to ‘emselves donchya reckon?

    Or, hang on, do you mean that Hamas and their fellow Jihadists that y’know govern themselves since the Israeli withdrawal from that area face the consequences for their terrorism and are kept out so they don’t do, y’know, all those homicide-suicide bombings aginst unarmed innocent people that they’d like to do? Plus are under a few econmic sanctions as is reasonable and foreseeable as penalties for their avowed and practiced desire to wipe a whole nation of people off the planet?

    Funny how Israel is supposedly the most evil nation evah in the world yet it doesnt, oh I dunno, use say a daisy cutter bomb or two and wipe Hamas from the planet like they wish to wipe Isreal off eh?

    Isn’t it odd too how Israel keeps getting singled out for “special treatment” (Gee where have Jews heard that before?) whilst Hamas can violate all the laws and Geneva conventions and basic ideas of human(e)ity it wants and these go unremarked let alone punished or criticised?

    Also, please fucking tell me you are talking about the war with egypt, in which case you may want fucking read something about that war.

    War with Egypt? Which war?

    The one where Israel fought back when it was attacked in 1848 or 18956 or 1973?

    In a sentence, ruteekatreya, what is the main cause of all the Arab-Israeli wars?

    Could it just be because, *gasp, shock, horror!*, the Jewish people want to live in their traditional historical homeland and the Arabs won’t let them even fucking exist in a tiny fragment of their former lands in peace?!

    Oh and y’know how that last war ended and theprice Anwar Sadat paid for trying to recognise reality and make even a very cold peace with teh evbull Jooooz? Know what the Muslim Brotherhood, who are now back in power there, there did to him for that?
    How ignorant are you again?

  21. 521
    pentatomid

    Guess you disagree and would prefer to argue for the genocide against the Jewish State. What then does that make you and whose company are you keeping? You proud of that?

    StevoR, just how dishonest were you planning on getting here?

  22. 522
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls :

    So Judaeophobia is the rule here is it? Great. Ever wonder if you’re relly on the right side here or would you rather just prefer to join the chorus of support for Hamas? Because they’re such nice people with such good ideas aren’t they?

  23. 523
  24. 524
    Deen

    Could it just be because, *gasp, shock, horror!*, the Jewish people want to live in their traditional historical homeland

    …without asking for permission from the people who were already living there. Small little detail you left out there.

  25. 525
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @pentatomid -29 June 2012 at 5:59 am :

    “Guess you disagree and would prefer to argue for the genocide against the Jewish State. What then does that make you and whose company are you keeping? You proud of that?”
    StevoR, just how dishonest were you planning on getting here?

    .. And that would be supposedly “dishonest” because .. well how exactly?

  26. 526
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ Deen – 29th June 2012 at 6:02 am

    “..Could it just be because, *gasp, shock, horror!*, the Jewish people want to live in their traditional historical homeland” -StevoR
    …without asking for permission from the people who were already living there. Small little detail you left out there.

    Yeah, that’d be why Mark Twain among others reported virtually no one was living there before the first Aliyah in the 18th centuiry or thereabouts, riiight?

    And I guess there never were any jewish communities living in the region back when the Ottoman Empire temporarily ruled that as a “syrian” province and I guess you are a fucking expert on the history of that region and the Jewish people generally. Oh wait. Maybe not.

  27. 527
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    I apologize that I mistook Iran for an Arab country in my earlier post, mostly from ignorance.

    Also I apologize StevoR that I never got to the post, I basically crashed when I got home, it was a long day.

  28. 528
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Yawn, time for quarantine to TZT for StevoR. It has no place in regular rational society.

  29. 529
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    Aww, gee thanks Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls (29th June 2012 at 6:15 am) I’m fond of you too. (eyeroll.)

    Your precise objection and rebuttal of my case then is ..what again?

    BTW. Y’know I agree with (I presume) most of your positions on most other issues y’know, dontchyah?

    I’m not *that* unlike you many ways I think ‘cept I’m on the Philo-Semitic side of that divide.

    @StevoR – 29 June 2012 at 6:09 am

    Yeah, that’d be why Mark Twain among others reported virtually no one was living there before the first Aliyah in the 18th centuiry or thereabouts, riiight?

    FYI :

    Mark Twain visited Israel in 1867, and published his impressions in Innocents Abroad. He described a desolate country – devoid of both vegetation and human population:

    “….. A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds… a silent mournful expanse…. a desolation…. we never saw a human being on the whole route…. hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”

    He was amazed by the smallness of the city of Jerusalem:

    “A fast walker could go outside the walls of Jerusalem and walk entirely around the city in an hour. I do not know how else to make one understand how small it is.”

    And he described the Temple Mount thus:

    “The mighty Mosque of Omar, and the paved court around it, occupy a fourth part of Jerusalem. They are upon Mount Moriah, where King Solomon’s Temple stood. This Mosque is the holiest place the Mohammedan knows, outside of Mecca. Up to within a year or two past, no christian could gain admission to it or its court for love or money. But the prohibition has been removed, and we entered freely for bucksheesh.”

    Chapters 45-56 of Innocents Abroad can be read on Shechem (dot)org.

    Source : http://zionismandisrael.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/mark-twain-in-the-holy-land/

  30. 530
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort – 29 June 2012 at 6:13 am :

    No worries.

    I know I’m not perfect myself and am never claiming to be.

  31. 531
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    Aaarrrrgh! Fucken typos. This :

    The one where Israel fought back when it was attacked in 1848 or 18956 or 1973?

    was meant to be this :

    The one where Israel fought back when it was attacked in 1948 or 1956 or 1973?

    As I’d hope would be obvious.

    (But then there’s been such astounding ignorance of history displayed here that ..yikes, who knows.)

  32. 532
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Mindless paranoid islamophobic bigot should be removed from civilized society. It isn’t civilized, but rather a deranged fool. To the TZT with it. Separate it from rational people who don’t need to listen to its fuckwitted ravings…

  33. 533
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @StevoR:

    I remember the war of 18956. Brutal war. Lots of lasers and robots.

  34. 534
    Deen

    and I guess you are a fucking expert on the history of that region and the Jewish people generally. Oh wait. Maybe not.

    No, I’m not an expert – but then again, if you considered that a requirement for participating in this discussion, you wouldn’t be here.

  35. 535
    Deen

    And Mark Twain is relevant because nothing changed between 1867 and 1948.</sarcasm>

  36. 536
    Rutee Katreya

    Oh what a surprise – you’re an anti-Semite. Never would ghave guessed. /sarcasm

    No. Just as I’m not a racist for my beefs with the governments in Iran, or for that matter, Japan, Indonesia, IReland… some of us can remain more or less in reality when we criticize a government.

    And it is a fact that Israel is invoking holocaust imagery to justify its actions while maintaining concentration camps. It’s shitty, but you are taking issue with the wrong person here. As usual.

    Guess you disagree and would prefer to argue for the genocide against the Jewish State. What then does that make you and whose company are you keeping? You proud of that?

    Aya? I want Israel to recognize the rights of the Palestinians, and to treat them as equals. No less; there is more, but it pertains to other issues, such as sexism, so they are not germane to the conversation. It is telling that you think the only option is for one side to genocide the other, though. In fact, you apparently can’t conceive of any goal except that. That’s… interesting. And lest you feel this can be said honestly by you, you have made it very clear that you are uncritical in your support of Israel.

    Israeli citizens live in concentartion camps? Ya reckon?

    The Palestinian people have as much a right to be israeli citizens as the jews do… and putting aside that moral claim, many, if not most of them, actually are.

    Weird that they’d do that to ‘emselves donchya reckon?

    Not really. White people put white people in power in the USA, and those white people in power happily put Native Americans, and then Japanese-descended Americans, in concentration camps. In fact, it’s a pretty well known practice, found in quite a few places across the world. That doesn’t change that it is horrid and needs to fucking end.

    Secondly, fuck yeah! I’d fucken well infinitely prefer to argue the case for Israel than the case for Hamas and Hizbollah and the PLO! (or ‘A’ same diff.)

    Really. You’d argue in favor of the folks succeeding at massive oppression over the folks who would enact it if they had power. Interesting. As it happens, I neither have to support Hamas, nor the Israeli government, so I don’t. Oh, but let me guess: PICK A SIDE, WE’RE AT WAR.

    Funny how Israel is supposedly the most evil nation evah

    Are you illiterate? I only said they were an evil government. I don’t know or particularly care who is the most evil.

    in the world yet it doesnt, oh I dunno, use say a daisy cutter bomb or two and wipe Hamas from the planet like they wish to wipe Isreal off eh?

    …With a single bomb. You’re going to end an underground insurgence with a single bomb. You really don’t understand what you’re talking about, do you? Also, do you really think the ISraelis do not use bombs and other explosives on civilian and ‘terrorist’ targets amongst the palestinians? Because I’ve got a bridge to sell you if you do.

    Isn’t it odd too how Israel keeps getting singled out for “special treatment”

    Really? Cause I thought I had issues with the governments France, Japan, China, Korea, Turkey, the USA, Indonesia, Malaysia, India, Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Denmark, Sweden…

    In fact, you’re the one who is making this entirely about Israel. I devoted considerably more space to criticizing the USA. Perhaps you think Israel will be easier to defend.

    whilst Hamas can violate all the laws and Geneva conventions

    Well, they are rebels against a government that doesn’t represent them (with a host of both legitimate and illegitimate grievances to match), and they aren’t signatories to the geneva convention, so literally speaking, this is actually true, but getting to what you are trying to say…

    Is Hamas treated like saints? Aside from its own propaganda channels, does anyone act like Hamas is without fault? That it does nothing wrong? No. And yes, they are still terrorists, even if they do things like provide food and basic services for some of their populace as they can. They face mass criticism, always. But the State of Israel’s crimes are whitewashed, and ignored, for a host of reasons. You are not merely criticizing Hamas; you are trying to claim that there is nothing they can legitimately do, and despite being a pacifist, I so mistrust it when the standards of pacifism are held much more strictly against the weak; especially by people who do not hold the strong to those same pacifistic standards. Triply so when the marginalized never professed to be pacifists.

    No, although Hamas does quite a few horrible things, I think I will leave that to others, and focus on the golden cow of the region.

    let alone punished or criticised?

    Are you having difficulty finding critics of Hamas?

    In a sentence, ruteekatreya, what is the main cause of all the Arab-Israeli wars?

    Once again, the racist fool confuses all middle eastern brown people with arabs. Egyptian: Also an ethnicity, you lackwit. And the only sentence that can possibly be true for this is Klausewitz canard of “A continuation of diplomacy by other means”, because Israel’s wars have been fought for different reasons.

    Could it just be because, *gasp, shock, horror!*, the Jewish people want to live in their traditional historical homeland and the Arabs won’t let them even fucking exist in a tiny fragment of their former lands in peace?!

    I guess it could be. It, you know, isn’t, but it could be, in much the same sense that there could be a pink unicorn in my bathroom. Again, Egypt’s recent war had a specific goal, with a fair amount of legitimacy behind it, for one.

    And again, you are ignoring that the Turks happily allied for decades… Not that turkish people are arabs either, but you’re the moron who confuses all middle eastern brown people with arabs, so I figured I’d talk down at your level.

    Know what the Muslim Brotherhood, who are now back in power there, there did to him for that?

    Lemme get this straight; you think the Muslim Brotherhood assassinated Saddam and took power… and then are back in power after overthrowing the regime that directly succeeded Sadat. Really now. And you think I am the ignorant one. That’s pretty hilarious.

    Seriously, the Muslim Brotherhood’s appointed a christian and a woman into positions of high power already, and you’re going to talk to me about religious fundamentalists and ignorance.

    Too late. The Jihadists already hate us and are deciated to slaughtering us all.

    Suppose you’re right; what the hell do I care that powerless people halfway across the planet want me dead, when people right here want me dead and are considerably more likely to actually be able to do it?

    Secular and sorta rational vs Jihadist and not.

    Secular? Do you not read this blog, to see the huge threats that comes under, daily, in the united states?

    Surely the corollary to that then is that is that if any humans have to have The Bomb then the fewer the better and the more pro-rationality the better?

    Do you not understand that this is not an argument to give Iran the bomb, but rather is one to take it from the current nuclear holders? That attention is being called to the fact that you disproportionately hold this over a particular kind of person, while caring nothing about white people who have the bomb?

    But does that mean you think Australia and Iran are morally equivalent? Really?

    You were mis-ID’d as a US citizen, so to cut to the chase, no, I would argue that the US government has traits that could definitely be construed as worse, if one were in a mood to be ranking evil powers, because the US government oppresses and murders huge numbers of people outside its own borders as well as amongst its own citizenry; usually through proxy, but not always.

  37. 537
    Rutee Katreya

    Actually, I should say “civilian and terrorist targets”. “terrorist and ‘terrorist’ targets” was the original construction, but it got an incomplete rewrite. My bad.

  38. 538
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    Part III @ruteekatreya – 28th of June 2012 at 1:30 pm :

    It’s extraordinarily difficult to be bigoted against white people as an aggregate, because white people face almost no systematic structures oriented against them, if any at all.

    Well, congrats, then, I guess, becuase you seem to manage to achieve that bigotry quite well.

    IF managing a “new” form of bigotry is something to be proud of that is. (I seem to see a lot of echoes of a very old form of bigotry in your postings FWIW.)

    Do you know what Israel does to the palestinians, you fucking moron?

    Tries to protect itself from their never-ending attempts to de-legitimise and destroy it?

    Do you really think they’re {“palestinians” -ed} as motivated by ‘jihaddist sentiment’ as they are by fucking “I WANT TO LIVE WITHOUT THREAT OF EXTERMINATION OR IMPRISONMENT BY MY GOVERNMENT”?

    Funnily enough, yes I do.

    Of course, the fact that their government whether Hamas or the Fatah is dictatorial and brutal and each “palestinian” side is at war with the other seems to have passed Ruteek by.

    Also the fact that if the “Palestinians” had merely wanted their own state, well, they’ve passed up a shit-tonne of opportunities to gain just that in every fucking peace talk from before 1948 up till today seems to have passed well over Ruteek’s head too. Arafat was once offered almost everything he wanted back in the Clinton days but he walked away from it instead. Because it was only 95% not 100% of his demands.

    And the Arabs had chosen to accept the 1947 UN ruling they’d have 45% of modern Israel now even though the former Mandate had already been divided two-thirds in their favour even earlier. (Hence Jordan.)

    “Then the USA “called for oceans of blood” did it? Really? Citations seriously fucking needed. Which president? When?” -StevoR
    That’d be Bush the Lesser when he invaded Iraq on flimsy pretenses..

    So US President George W. Bush specifically called for “oceans of blood” did he, ya think, liar? Bullshit.

    Show me the exact speech and exact quote where he said that. Factcheck : He never did.

    Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iraq…. not to mention this scaremongering you’re doing over iran. But hey, USians and the US never hates country. Not like that brown arab world. That’s why when we call them an existential threat, it’s okay.

    Oh, thanks. It is.

    Skin colour? I don’t give a damn.

    The fact they’re trying to fucking kill us? Yep, that counts.

    Israel’s existence is under threat. That’s what they think and they’d know. Its not like Jews haven’t heard that sort of rhetoric before and learnt to take it seriously.

    I shed no tears over the Nazis or the Nationalists being replaced, but you are grossly misrepresenting what happened there in both cases. {Post WWII -ed.} And I wouldn’t really call either Japan or Germany unoccupied (though the US shared Germany with 3 other nations). And You’re aware the US wrote the Japanese constitution, right?

    I’m aware of that. You think they did a bad job or the wrong thing?

    You’d call Japan and Germany occupied right now? Are you fucking nuts?!

    Like how Egypt just wanted the Sinai peninsula, because that was all it had a legitimate claim to?

    BZZZZTT. History FAIL. Egypt wasn’t just after the Sinai in 1948 and 1956 and 1967 and 1973. They wanted Israel and all its people dead.

    Not that I really care who owns Sinai, but were you not counting them? What about Turkey, who allied with Israel for decades? Do they count? Ooo, or Indonesia and Malaysia, whom care considerably less about Israel than any of us do. Fuckwit.

    Shithead.

    So some Muslims nations are worse than others? Well that’s a fucking surprise. Oh wait it isn’t.

    Maybe you should ask why *any* Islamic states give a damn whether or not another people (like, oh, say the Jews) have a nation of their own?

    …Those were done by 5 different groups with 6 different agendas, none of which were by a state, and you want to seriously raise the proposal to go to war? What do you think war fucking is? And how do you seriously hold that up to several times the deaths of civilians inflicted by the US government?

    What an unappetising word salad. What?

    Okay, I hold that Islamist Jihadist states that want to kill us be prevented from doing so. Whatever we have to do to achieve that. Your objection to that is ..?

    It’s easy; you’re a racist idiot.

    Skin colour doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

    People seeking to murder me and destroy our way of life? Them I’ve got a problem with.

    That ain’t racism, you ignorami.

    {Bosnia-Kosovo was -ed.} .. UN-lead intervention, thus placing it firmly outside of US control. Good try though, actually.

    Because of course the USA has no effect on the UN and didn’t, oh I dunno, lead the whole fucking thing. Oh wait it did. Also I’m talking Western which is a lot more than just the United States. You missed that? I recommend you read things twice or thrice next time and slowly at that. May help you.

    A saddam we armed, thus placing it firmly under ‘pointless’. Cleaning up our own messes {1991 Kuwaut war} is not a particularly praiseworthy trait

    I disagree. You rather we didn’t? Rather we’d let Saddam keep Kuwait? You think it wasn’t just to free Kuwait from Iraqi occupation? You fucking moron.

    The falklands sole purpose is extending the zone that britain can call its territorial waters. Pointless. Also, do you know where the falklands fucking *are*? Well, you’re australian, not meriken, so you may. Especially since the whole thing was penis waving by two right wing parties.

    You think its okay for Argentina to go in and forcably occupy someone else’s homes? I don’t. Yes I know where the Falklands are and who their people want to have in charge. Clearly you don’t.

    {Re : Cold War} You have got to be fucking kidding me. Massive offenses on the rights of its own citizenry were ‘justified’ by a threat that never manifested itself seriously? Not that that was a war… Unjustified. Although that sort of does inform your claims regarding Israel. Guess you’re not just a racist, but also a fascist!

    Which I guess would make you a Stalinist or Leninist? Not serious? Fuuuuuck! You really do NOT have a fucking clue do you?

    I grew up during that. Fucking hell was it *ever* serious! I’m glad capitalism & the USA won too.

    The Soviet Union? Well, fucking hell, you sure need to do some research there you ignorant sack of feces. Shit for brains Ruteek, the USA and fascists? Thjsoe would be opposites, fuckhead.

  39. 539
    Eurasian magpie

    What the fuck is the deal with those scare quotes around Palestinians?

    Also, are you frothing in you mouth when you type these rants, StevoR?

  40. 540
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ the ignormaus Ruteek :

    {Re : Korean war}Our intervention drew chinese intervention. Pointless. It was to back an oppressive, fascist asshole in the South, because he wasn’t communist, unlike the oppressive, communist asshole in the North. Unjustified. GJ there, I was hoping you’d nail one that was both.

    Pointless you say? Take a look at South Korea!

    Done that? Right? Now take a look at North Korea.

    Which nation would you rather be a citizen of? Where do you think people generally are better off?

    Now would it have been better if everyone in South Korea was living as they are in North Korea?

    Ye-fucking-non-existent-gods Ruteek! Are you for fucking real? Can a person really be as fucking stupid as you seem to appear!?

    torture, indefinite detention … the torture of children, and other war crimes

    Versus the way Islamists treat women, apostates, atheists and cartoonists and, oh yes, Jews? A litle perspective please?

    I’ve never said the West is perfect. Is it Light Years or at least Astronomical Units ahead of the alternatives though? Fuck yeah!

    “and I do think the Western way is scientifically proven to work better than other cultural ways.”- StevoR
    Well, it does for white dudes who are straight, able bodied, and neurotypical.

    You’d rather be a gay or non-hetero-normative non-Muslim in a Muslim nation then would you? Say a left-handed, Jewish , disabled lesbian in Talibasn Afghanistan maybe?

    Yes. The Western world gives more and better opportunities for more people and groups of people than any other culture in history ever. You disagree? Ok. Your alternative then?

    You’re defending the USA, not Germany, right now, remember?

    Reading FAIL on your part Ruteek. I’m defending Westerb civilisation which includes the USA, Canada, Australia, Japan New Zealand-Aeotearoa and, yes, Germany too.

    Japan is western. Really. Also, ‘free world’ doesn’t make sense anymore; the cold war ended 23 years ago.

    Yes x 2.

    Japan is Western and, yes, the terms Western and Free World are (still) synomonmous. You might want to contemplate what makes that so.

    “The USA has done some things wrong sure, but trying to destory it by Jihadist violence is NOT the way to right those wrongs or make things just or better.”-StevoR.
    Yeah, and in a world where those people actually had power that might be a stirring point. In the real world, where this sentiment is really just fueling more deaths of people for the high crime of being born into a muslim society, I’m not really convinced.

    Well that’s a major non-sequiteur on your part methinks.

    You think Jihadist violence is the right path? Fuck you!

    You don’t? Then fucking well say so and stop making excuses for it.

    People born into a Muslim society are intrinisically unlucky and it would be better for them if they weren’t? Well, we agree on that at least!

    Do you hear the rhetoric that comes out of Israel’s fundamentalists? I don’t think they’re going to nuke IRan either, but on what grounds do you figure Iran is super scary to ISrael that doesn’t apply to Israel nuking IRan?(sic.)

    On the grounds that Iran has already sponsored and currently sponsors Jihadist terrorism globally and Israel doesn’t.

    On the grounds that the fundamentalists are a fringe in Israel and yet are governing Iran.

    On the grounds that Iran wants to strike agressively first whilst Israel would only use its nukes as a last defensive resort.

    Those grounds.

  41. 541
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @pj – 29th of June 2012 at 8:07 am :

    What the fuck is the deal with those scare quotes around Palestinians?

    It may have something to do with the fact that there was no such thing as “palestinianuntil the 1970s when Cairo-born Jihadist Yasser Arafat created thenotion as an excuse to attack Israel.

    Also, are you frothing in you mouth when you type these rants, StevoR?

    Nope. I’m drinking the odd beer as I do and making sure none comes out again.

    If you’re now going toaccuse me of being an alcoholic then I plead guilty as charged and will merely point out that I can still argue better drunk than some can argue sober!

  42. 542
    Ace of Sevens

    Israel or the US killing them for standing too close to an alleged terrorist isn’t going to help those gay Muslims at all.

  43. 543
    Ingdigo Jump

    Heh if anyone wonders why brown people don’t all rush to the skeptic/atheist meetings one needs to look no further than how tolerant people are of SteveoR’s view.

    Almost makes me wish there was a hell for Hitchen’s to rot in; lending credibility to the dehumanization of millions. Hitchen’s may have done many fine things in his career, but it’s tainted for me due to his prominent role as the Skeptic Goebbels

  44. 544
    Gnumann+,with no bloody irony at all (just an anti-essentialist feminist with a shotgun)

    Swell!

    StevoR is still displaying his bigotry I see.

    If information was liable to change his ways he would do well to read “the lessons of terror” by Caleb Carr. He’s a crime writer and I am not a historian so I can’t vouch for correctness- but the perspectives are interesting.

    Of course, he won’t do this. It’s far more fun to be a howling bigot based on only Hitch’ worse moments.

  45. 545
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Funny how paranoid bigots think we are interested in sharing their paranoia and bigotry. We aren’t, as they never have a cogent point. Just “I’m so scared I wet my pants”, and “I hate X, kill-kill-kill”.

  46. 546
    Ingdigo Jump

    StevoR could also just find any Arab American or American Muslim or Middle East Peace Coalition and talk to the people there to see what Muslims/Arabs/Persians/Turks are like. They’re all over on at least the East Coast Campus’s and have facebook/web pages.

    Oh and BTW STevoR, that “Jewish Homeland”. Yeah find me evidence of ownership outside the Bible?

    Hilarity of Atheists using the fucking Abrahamic Myths to support their position.

    Though even if there was firm ownership, they had about as much right to claim the land as the Irish due to reclaim the Isle of Britain. And not even half the claim that the American Indians have to evict two fucking continents full of people.

  47. 547
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ “We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective” -29th of June 2012 at 8:31 am :

    Heh if anyone wonders why brown people don’t all rush to the skeptic/atheist meetings one needs to look no further than how tolerant people are of SteveoR (sic)’s view.

    Okay.

    First : StevoR – one ‘e’ not two.

    Second : I do NOT give a flying fuck about skin colour.

    Black, brown, white, yellow, red, grey, pibnk-with-effing-polka–dots who gives a shit?

    I treat people equally and I’ll treat people kindly and politely, whatever the colour of their skin, ‘k?

    Whether those here believe that or not, that’s reality, that’s me.

    So .. tolerance .. okay. You’re accusing me of intolerance?

    Why?

    What am I intolerant to? Lies? Stupidity? Anti-Semites? Yep. Proud of that. You are happy to swallow lies and anti-Semitic bile? Really?

    What else?

  48. 548
    Ingdigo Jump

    You’re a genocide promoter. You’re not tolerant. No one here is an anti-semite. As someone who had family in the fucking Holocaust I am pissed off beyond belief to see assholes like you wrap your self in their corpses to justify further violence. You don’t give two shits about jews or anyone you disgusting little ogre.

  49. 549
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls – 29th of June 2012 at 8:38 am :

    {Comic shop guy voice} Worst msireadinmg of whatbwa sactuiallyn said ever! {/Comic shop guy voice.}

  50. 550
    Eurasian magpie

    @StevoR

    Your drinking habits are not for me to police. That you even thought I’d “accuse you of being alcoholic” tells something about your mindset though. Paranoia.

  51. 551
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    Durnnit! Make that :

    Worst misreading of what was actually said ever!

  52. 552
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective” – 29 June 2012 at 8:46 am :

    You’re a genocide promoter.

    Citation fucking well required!

    You’re not tolerant.

    Ditto.

    No one here is an anti-semite.

    You think? Really? Did you actually read Ruteeks fucking posts at all?

    As someone who had family in the fucking Holocaust I am pissed off beyond belief to see assholes like you wrap your self in their corpses to justify further violence. You don’t give two shits about jews or anyone you disgusting little ogre.

    What the fuck?

  53. 553
    Ingdigo Jump

    Oh what did you miss Steve? Did you miss that someone might be fucking offended that you use anti-semitism and holocaust scare to defend violence?

    Citation fucking well required!

    This is fucking well established.

    You’re not tolerant.

    Oh I dunno….How about the fact that you equate criticism of Israeli policy as fucking antisemitism? That’s pretty damn intolerant.

  54. 554
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @Ace of Sevens – 29th of June 2012 at 8:21 am :

    Israel or the US killing them for standing too close to an alleged terrorist isn’t going to help those gay Muslims at all.

    So, um, you see a terrorist you step away and keep well clear of them – d’uh!

  55. 555
    Ingdigo Jump

    So, um, you see a terrorist you step away and keep well clear of them – d’uh!

    YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT.

    You know what “close to a terrorist” is defined as to some in the Israeli military? THE ENTIRE FUCKING NATION OF LEBANON

  56. 556
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @”We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective” – 29th of June 2012 at 8:55 am :

    Oh what did you miss Steve? Did you miss that someone might be fucking offended that you use anti-semitism and holocaust scare to defend violence?

    You’re offended? Because I defended the rights of Israel to exist and Jews to fight back against those who would like to exterminate from the Earth?

    And you’re a Shoah victim?

    I don’t understand you, Ing, I really, really fucking don’t.

    Oh I dunno….How about the fact that you equate criticism of Israeli policy as fucking antisemitism? That’s pretty damn intolerant.

    No. That’s realistic. Because all too fucking often that is *exactly* what criticism of Israel fucking well is.

    Thinly disguised anti-Semitism or Judeaophobia in newspeak.

    Prove me wrong if you can.

  57. 557
    Ingdigo Jump

    You’re offended? Because I defended the rights of Israel to exist and Jews to fight back against those who would like to exterminate from the Earth?

    And you’re a Shoah victim?

    I don’t understand you, Ing, I really, really fucking don’t.

    OF course you dont’ you don’t understand fuckign anyhing.

    No one is aruging aginst Israli’s right to defend itself. It’s fucking over everyone else and being a dick.

    No. That’s realistic. Because all too fucking often that is *exactly* what criticism of Israel fucking well is.

    Thinly disguised anti-Semitism or Judeaophobia in newspeak.

    Prove me wrong if you can.

    YOURE A FUCKIGN IDIOT

    UGH i’m so mad I can’t see straight.

  58. 558
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @Ing :

    THE ENTIRE FUCKING NATION OF LEBANON

    Or perhaps, maybe just the parts where fucking Hezbollah are fucking firing rockets at us maybe?

  59. 559
    Ingdigo Jump

    StevoR

    FFS THEY STRUCK CENTRAL LEBANON WHEN HEZBOLLAH WAS LIMITED TO THE SOUTH YOU FUCKING IDIOT. YOU KNOW NOTHING. NOTHING

  60. 560
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @Ing :

    No one is aruging aginst Israli’s right to defend itself. It’s fucking over everyone else and being a dick.

    Is it?

    Not as I see it.

  61. 561
    Ingdigo Jump

    @StevoR

    Oh I’m sorry that’s a great fucking rebuttal!

    “I’ve decided that’s how it is so that’s how I see it”

    Fucking idiot.

    Please just kill yourself and do everyone a favor

  62. 562
    Eurasian magpie

    Hezbollah are fucking firing rockets at us

    ???

  63. 563
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @Ing :

    FFS THEY STRUCK CENTRAL LEBANON WHEN HEZBOLLAH WAS LIMITED TO THE SOUTH YOU FUCKING IDIOT. YOU KNOW NOTHING. NOTHING.

    Obviously I’d disagree with that statement.

    Syria, y’know that place where Basher Al Assad has been massacring his own people has been pulling the strings in Lebanon for fucking ever. (Metaphorically.)

    I don’t know.

    But the Israeli Defence Forces?

    They do.

    So I’m going to back them and what they do because they do fucking know.

    Defending Israel is their job. They say they have to hit X I’ll take their word for it. You wouldn’t?

  64. 564
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Ohhh-kaay, so the fact that Hamas funds kindergartens is supposed to outweigh the fact that their goal is genocide against the Jewish State? Plus the fact they are terrorists who keep firing rockets at people and committing appalling acts of murder and barbarism and, did I mention, their whole raison d’etre is exterminating another people from the planet entirely? Really?

    I don’t think so.

    Dafuq?!

    Cupcake, I was pointing out how they gain the support of people in the territories they control. I do not support terrorism. Against anyone, by anyone.

    By the way, fuck you and your assertion that living in Hamas-occupied territory = supporting Hamas = member of Hamas = deserves to die.

    Seriously, WTF?

    You are a racist. I really don’t see any way around this.

  65. 565
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ Ing :

    Please just kill yourself and do everyone a favor.

    You really think I’d take that particular piece of advice?

    Dunno what’s worse. That you tghink I wuld or wouldn’t.

    I won’t.

  66. 566
    Ingdigo Jump

    Defending Israel is their job. They say they have to hit X I’ll take their word for it. You wouldn’t?

    You are a fucking idiot.

    Oh btw, how did that adventure in Lebanon end? Oh right. A TOTAL FUCKING FAILURE. They killed a while lot of people, destroyed infrastructure, and achieved NONE OF THEIR GOALS.

  67. 567
    Ingdigo Jump

    You really think I’d take that particular piece of advice?

    Dunno what’s worse. That you tghink I wuld or wouldn’t.

    I won’t.

    You really should. You support terrorists after all.

  68. 568
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    They say they have to hit X I’ll take their word for it. You wouldn’t?

    And there you have it, the authoritarian mindset, enabling everything from genocide to privatised healthcare since we crawled down from the trees.

  69. 569
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain :

    You are a racist. I really don’t see any way around this.

    Since when has belief in a certain religion equalled race?!?

    Cupcake, I was pointing out how they gain the support of people in the territories they control. I do not support terrorism. Against anyone, by anyone.

    Good. Remember that okay.

    By the way, fuck you and your assertion that living in Hamas-occupied territory = supporting Hamas = member of Hamas = deserves to die.

    Most of them do. Support Hamas and the other.

    Here’s a tip for those who don’t – leave.

    Pretty sure Israel will let them emigrate if they choose to.

  70. 570
    Ingdigo Jump

    StevoR

    You are a monster.

  71. 571
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ Ing : *I* support terrorists??

    What the Fuck!

    How?

    Why?

    Are you for fucking real??!

  72. 572
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    Hey StevoR, they say that you have to be baptised, I wouldn’t take their word for it, would you?

  73. 573
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ Ing : No I’m not a monster.

    A flawed drunk human maybe.

    A monster? No.

    I could never, NEVER, do what hamas and Islamic Jihad and the other fucking terrorists try to do every fucken day.

  74. 574
    Ingdigo Jump

    Yeah I’m just going to block StevoR and presume all his comments are

    FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP.

    He’s a fucking Nazi. And the fact that assholes like him wrap themselves up in the holocaust to deflect criticism is the worst perversion of all. A perfect shit cherry to put on the Sunday of humanity’s utter depravity and obliviousness.

  75. 575
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος’s spellchecker) :

    Hey StevoR, they say that you have to be baptised, I wouldn’t take their word for it, would you?

    What the fuck has that got to do with anything?

    IDF vs priests – two very fucking different groups.

  76. 576
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ Ing : Well I’m not.

    Do what what you want, I can’ t stop you and would’nt try to.

  77. 577
    Ingdigo Jump

    FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP

  78. 578
    Anthony K

    Here’s a tip for those who don’t – leave.

    What a fucking shitweasel.

  79. 579
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    Hey StevoR, they say that vaccination causes autism, I wouldn’t take their word for it. Would you?

  80. 580
    Anthony K

    Do what what you want, I can’ t stop you and would’nt try to.

    Only because you’re not Arabs, obviously.

  81. 581
    Ingdigo Jump

    Remember everyone, everyone here EXCEPT StevoR is antisemitic. EVERYONE just doesn’t understand the situation! Fuckers gotta die! It’s not personal but for our existence they have to be destroyed.

  82. 582
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    IDF vs priests – two very fucking different groups.

    Well, you can thell the difference between two groups, I guess that’s a start.

    How about this: why do you believe the IDF and not the priests?

  83. 583
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος’s spellchecker) 29th of June 2012 at 9:30 am :

    Because the IDF have gathered current intelligence whereas the priests are quoting from a stone age book of mythology.

    @ Ing – 29th June 2012 at 9:29 am :

    No, not *everyone* is Anti-Semitic.

    Too many people in this world including some posting here on FTB, however are.

    If someone singles out the Jewish people or Israel for what seems a disproportionate amount of negative attention and unfair criticism well, chances are .. they are.

  84. 584
    Walton

    StevoR, I don’t know what it is about Muslims that sends you into an irrational homicidal rage. Nor do I understand why you love war and violence so much.

    Strangely enough, the fact that someone is criticizing Israel’s military policies does not imply that they support Hamas. And it doesn’t make them an anti-Semite, either. You’re just trying to distract attention from the weakness of your position by flinging insults at people.

  85. 585
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Here’s a tip for those who don’t – leave.

    Pretty sure Israel will let them emigrate if they choose to.

    Right.

    Firstly:

    Emigrate to where?

    Secondly:

    Emigrate how? Establish themselves with what money?

    Thirdly:

    Because the solution to Israels problems is the removal of all Palestinian people?

    Congratulations, Cupcake! You just showed your hand.

  86. 586
    Pteryxx

    Here’s a tip for those who don’t – leave.

    Because everyone who doesn’t leave their home, or can’t leave, or won’t leave, deserves whatever they get? You’re a pathetic excuse for a human being, StevoR.

  87. 587
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    Because the IDF have gathered current intelligence

    Uh huh, and you know that this intelligence is credible and accurate, how exactly? And you know they’re acting on intelligence rather than political pressure, how exactly?

  88. 588
    desertfroglet

    Probably a bit mean to point out to StevoR that the most recent act of politically-motivated terrorism in Australia was carried out by an Australian-Israeli citizen

  89. 589
    PZ Myers

    StevOR, we all know you hate “Jihadist Terrorist Muslims” (who are the only true Muslims) and want to pre-emptively kill them all right now. We know you think it is honest self-defense to murder someone who hates you.

    We really do get it.

    So shut up about it now. Go on another tirade about justified slaughter of all those faceless, nameless, unidentifiable Evil Moooslems, and I’ll decide that your hate makes you too scary to tolerate. Don’t worry, I won’t send a drone to your house; I’ll just ban your pasty ass.

  90. 590
    Waffler, of the Waffler Institute

    Most of them do. Support Hamas and the other.

    Where ‘most of them’ == ‘live in Gaza’ and ‘the other’ == ‘deserve to die’? Most of the people in Gaza, you say, deserve to die?

    Yikes. Evil.

  91. 591
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain – 29th of June 2012 at 9:46 am :

    Firstly : Emigrate to where?

    Wherever they want to. Their choice.

    Secondly:Emigrate how? Establish themselves with what money?

    Their own. Got money to build rockets? Then you got money you can use to emigrate instead.

    I’m sure if they asked nicley they’d get get the funds they need.

    Thirdly :Because the solution to Israels problems is the removal of all Palestinian people? Congratulations, Cupcake! You just showed your hand.

    You’re assuming there was a legitimate “palestinian” people
    in the first place.

    Even if there was, are you saying that’s wrong?

    How many Muslim nations are there on this planet? You got any idea? Plenty and then some.

    There is only one Jewish state and it is tiny.

    Can you really, really begrudge them that one?

  92. 592
    Ingdigo Jump

    There is only one Jewish state and it is tiny.

    Can you really, really begrudge them that one?

    I cannot begrudge the existence of Israel. I can begrudge that it is a Jewish state, a theocratic apartheid state.

    How many other nations are there…would you begrudge the Nazi’s one German state?

  93. 593
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @PZ Myers – 29 June 2012 at 10:02 am :

    Okay. Just seen that. Please don’t ban me.

  94. 594
    FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!)

    Fuck it, I have to go to bed. I’m going to spell it out for you StevoR because you’re a fucking simpleton: skepticism, you’re doing it wrong.

    In the case of any organisation that keeps secrets there is no way to confirm if their actions are necessary because we don’t have access to their intelligence. Makes sense doesn’t it? But here’s the kicker: only an authoritarian idiot would accept without question the actions of such an organisation.

    Just as extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so too do extraordinary actions require extraordinary evidence to justify them. And make no mistake about it, the oppressive actions of the IDF are extraordinary, and they in no way have met the burden of proof when it comes to justifying them. Just as the priests haven’t met their burden of proof, just as the anti-vaxers haven’t met their burden of proof.

    Now go get fitted out with your snappy uniform you pathetic little quisling. Polish those boots and practice standing to attention and maybe they’ll let you pull the trigger. Might want to have a quick wank before though, stains on your trousers will get you under report.

  95. 595
    ImaginesABeach

    <They say they have to hit X I’ll take their word for it. You wouldn’t?

    The US government under President GHW Bush said that the US had to invade Iraq because of weapons of mass destruction.

    The fact that a government, or an army, says that military action is needed is not evidence that military action is needed.

  96. 596
    ImaginesABeach

    Blockquote fail, and a reminder to preview at 95.

  97. 597
    Ingdigo Jump

    <They say they have to hit X I’ll take their word for it. You wouldn’t?

    Your willingness to sacrifice others for your ideals is noted. Somehow I doubt you’d give the same confidence if they said you needed to be taken out.

  98. 598
    Rutee Katreya

    Pointless you say?

    Do you know when the Chinese entered the fucking war? Seriously, now, read along. I said it was pointless because our intervention is the direct catalyst for hte Chinese one, thus making the intervention a complete waste in addition to unjustified.

    Take a look at South Korea!

    Done that? Right? Now take a look at North Korea.

    The oppressive fascist in South Korea eventually got kicked out. By Koreans. Not Meriken. Are you a diviner? No? Did you see that coming in exacting detail in 1950? No? Could you? No? Well then! Guess it doesn’t fucking matter which is less oppressive now; The facts that were available did not make backing South Korea any more palatable than backing North Korea, except that South Korea wasn’t a communist state (But it was run by a fascist. The US made this decision a LOT)

    Well, congrats, then, I guess, becuase you seem to manage to achieve that bigotry quite well.

    What systematic oppression of white people did I strengthen? No no, go tell me; I’ll wait. Hint: I said ‘extraordinary difficult’ because you actually have to live in a country that does actually disadvantage white people to have a prayer of establishing this. There aren’t a lot of those, and I’m kind of assuming without evidence one actually exists; white people tend to get far more credit and consideration than even people who run the country. But go on.

    ?

    Tries to protect itself from their never-ending attempts to de-legitimise and destroy it?
    Funny, plenty of states do that without civilian murder and concentration camps. Why can’t Israel?

    Also the fact that if the “Palestinians” had merely wanted their own state, well, they’ve passed up a shit-tonne of opportunities to gain just that in every fucking peace talk from before 1948 up till today seems to have passed well over Ruteek’s head too

    Well, talk about your revisionist history. But that’s not new to you.

    And the Arabs had chosen to accept the 1947 UN ruling they’d have 45% of modern Israel now even though the former Mandate had already been divided two-thirds in their favour even earlier. (Hence Jordan.)

    Sure they wouldn’t. I’m sure Israel would never take unnecessary military action to control land that didn’t legally belong to them. Remember Sinai? I don’t really care who won, but really now XD

    So US President George W. Bush specifically called for “oceans of blood” did he, ya think, liar? Bullshit.

    Hamas never used that phrase either, but you’d happily apply it to them. Bush ultimately called for massacres. And you’re seriously going to quibble over his choice of words. You are a fucking waste of oxygen, and while I do not want to kill you, I will not spare even the tiniest bit of sorrow when you finally fucking die and stop wasting space and oxygen that is almost certainly going to be used by someone who is less of a piece of shit.

    Skin colour? I don’t give a damn.

    You say that, but the evidence doesn’t support that you believe it. Evidence like always, and in all circumstances, treating the actions of brown people far more harshly than you do white people.

    The fact they’re trying to fucking kill us? Yep, that counts.

    Less than 1% of muslims specifically want to kill us, even if few would shed a tear over our passing. And muslin are an existential threat to you. Again, you are a racist piece of shit.

    Israel’s existence is under threat.

    A nuclear power faces 0 threat of extermination by non-nuclear powers. Even if Iran had the bomb, their self preservation would with almost complete certainty kick in; as it happens, muslims don’t want to die either.

    BZZZZTT. History FAIL. Egypt wasn’t just after the Sinai in 1948 and 1956 and 1967 and 1973. They wanted Israel and all its people dead.

    Declaring this isn’t going to make it true.

    So some Muslims nations are worse than others? Well that’s a fucking surprise. Oh wait it isn’t.

    …You’re the one treating them as a giant aggregate of hate, you piece of racist shit.

    Maybe you should ask why *any* Islamic states give a damn whether or not another people (like, oh, say the Jews) have a nation of their own?

    The irony is almost palpable, as you have behaved as though every muslim country ultimately needs to be taken down.

    I’m aware of that. Yu think they did a bad job or the wrong thing?

    …Do I think the USA did the wrong thing in forcing a constitution on another country. Yes, yes I do actually. Kind of a gimme.

    You’d call Japan and Germany occupied right now? Are you fucking nuts?!

    …Rammstein, and the USFJ would appear to agree, off the top of my head.

    Okay, I hold that Islamist Jihadist states that want to kill us be prevented from doing so. Whatever we have to do to achieve that. Your objection to that is ..?

    Do you know what has to be done to prevent the destruction of the USA?

    Nothing. We can do nothing, and Islamic extremists will never destroy it. They will maybe manage to kill another 200 people, assuming they actually try That does not justify the deaths of thousands. This is what puts the lie to your claim that you are not a fucking racist.

    I disagree. You rather we didn’t

    You’re not good at following along. For the slow, had we not interfered in the middle east at all, a toothless saddam would not have had the hardware to really do anything to Kuwait. Desert STorm did not exist in a magic history-less bubble, and the intervention there isn’t complete without mentioning the intervention that empowered Saddam. As they are two sides of the same coin, it falls thoroughly under ‘pointless’.

    You think its okay for Argentina to go in and forcably occupy someone else’s homes? I don’t. Yes I know where the Falklands are and who their people want to have in charge. Clearly you don’t.

    Given that the ARgentines have a pretty legit claim to own the land, I don’t really care too much. I also don’t care that England has it, because it’s true that the Falklanders would prefer to remain English. Although it’s pretty fucking rich of you to pretend you care about self determination now, after all that shit about Palestine.

    Which I guess would make you a Stalinist or Leninist?

    No, merely a socialist. I said you were a fascist not because you wanted capitalism to win, but because you specifically claimed the massive human rights abuses were justified. There’s not a lot left after that.

    I grew up during that. Fucking hell was it *ever* serious!

    I can tell you thought it was, but the Cuban Missile Crisis is about the only time there was ever real threat of the US and USSR coming to blows. That you grew up in it doesn’t mean you actually know anything about it. It colors your perception based on what your culture thought was likely, if you did not take great pains to actually try and look at this shit skeptically… which is not really a thing you seem to ever do. The Cold War was a 30 year long penis waving contest wherein both the USA and the USSR acted like complete shit to everyone they had even the flimsiest pretext to. The USA created a lot of its current enemies in that era, such as by arming and training the people who would become Al Qaeda, Installing the Iranian Shah, pretty much everything it did ever to South America, arming Saddam…

    Shit for brains Ruteek, the USA and fascists? Thjsoe would be opposites, fuckhead.

    During the cold war, not really. We supported numerous fascist powers because they weren’t communists (LEarn something about South America, you racist sack of shit). We enacted numerous fascist abuses of our own citizenry; You do know what the phrase ‘mccarthyism’ comes from, right? And it’s not like we played remotely fair; Our government wielded the hammer of communism against people who weren’t, but *were* trying to enact changes; civil rights leaders had the displeasure of being called communist, sometimes officially and often by the general public, for the high crimes of seeking equality for black people, or being gay.

    Jesus fuck, you are a piece of shit.

    Japan is Western

    You really don’t see what’s wrong with that, do you?

    and, yes, the terms Western and Free World are (still) synomonmous. You might want to contemplate what makes that so.

    Western Propaganda. That didn’t change between generations.

    You’d rather be a gay or non-hetero-normative non-Muslim in a Muslim nation then would you?

    You know, I used to hate saying this, but yeah, actually, muslim nations are substantially more likely to support transexual rights than western ones. Fucking Iran pays for its citizens to get GRS*, while the USA, Canada, England, and France still has massive fucking legal barriers to transexuality, at the very least. It’s far from fucking perfect, but then, I’m making plans to leave the USA because the USA won’t respect my soon-to-be-marriage, so…

    Fuck way the hell away from queer people, you titanic asshole. We don’t just exist when you’re trying to score points on other cis heteros (Not that I am, but you clearly perceived me to be).

    Yes. The Western world gives more and better opportunities for more people and groups of people than any other culture in history ever.

    Talk about an assumed conclusion. You probably didn’t even fucking know that transexuals are still attacked (sometimes lethally) and have massive legal shit thrown in their face, did you? Nope, the west is perfectly tolerant. Jesus fuck.

    You think Jihadist violence is the right path? Fuck you!

    Are you illiterate? I said they are powerless, and therefore nothing needs to be done. It doesn’t make their violence correct, but violent fantasies (Which is all islamic fundamentalists can really do to USians) do not justify violence, else we would be justified to do violence to you, specifically, StevOR.

    On the grounds that Iran has already sponsored and currently sponsors Jihadist terrorism globally and Israel doesn’t.

    Yeah, Israel never does shit to scare the shit out of its neighbors for political reasons. =.=

    On the grounds that the fundamentalists are a fringe in Israel and yet are governing Iran.

    ….
    By which you mean a major party that wields considerable influence over israel.

    On the grounds that Iran wants to strike agressively first whilst Israel would only use its nukes as a last defensive resort.

    I have no reason to think this is actually true, given that they say that now and still haven’t attacked. It’s almost as if they actually do possess self preservation instincts like everyone else.

    Heh if anyone wonders why brown people don’t all rush to the skeptic/atheist meetings one needs to look no further than how tolerant people are of SteveoR’s view.

    Well, the kind of brown that is from the Middle East, yes. I sincerely doubt this shit is what keeps out hispanics… but then again, the triumphalism towards white people would always be a deterrent (IT’s also almost certainly not the sum of his racism though, I’m sure there’d be some vintage shit towards hispanics if it were germane)

    Oh and BTW STevoR, that “Jewish Homeland”. Yeah find me evidence of ownership outside the Bible?

    IIRC, we do actually have pretty considerable evidence that there was a Jewish state called Israel. The Romans and the greeks conquered it, and we also have evidence of those wars.

    Not that it really matters, as you said.

    Almost makes me wish there was a hell for Hitchen’s to rot in; lending credibility to the dehumanization of millions. Hitchen’s may have done many fine things in his career, but it’s tainted for me due to his prominent role as the Skeptic Goebbels

    Eh, yeah, compared to the genocide cheerleading I suppose the misogyny is small potatoes, but can’t it rank on some level at least?

    *Mind you, they pay for GRS because it will ‘cure homosexuality’, but considering sexuality is thrown in the faces of transexuals in the west as proof they aren’t really the gender they say they are, that about works itself out.

  99. 599
    Ingdigo Jump

    IIRC, we do actually have pretty considerable evidence that there was a Jewish state called Israel. The Romans and the greeks conquered it, and we also have evidence of those wars.

    Not that it really matters, as you said.

    Yeah like I said, roughly the same claim the Irish have over Britain.

    The problem is that the justification for the state and that land is the Bible…which relies on the fact that either GOD GRANTED THE LAND, or (accepting the narrative given in the Bible) the ancestors of the Jews brutalized and genocide the other populations of the land. Neither seems to be a good standard for ownership to me. The land is not innately Jewish. The right thing to do is to acknowledge that other people live(d) there and that they do have a right to be treated as equal citizens. You cannot just dismiss them as lesser citizens or relocate them for the living space because of a pre-Roman claim to land. If that were the standard we should gladly turn control of the America’s back over to the original people, who have a much clearer claim. Their displacement was more recent, and the current occupying power is the same one that displaced them.

    Again I’m FOR Israel…but it should not be an apartheid state nor should we pretend that it was a no-brainer that the original settlers had a claim to seize land that was currently being occupied and owned.

  100. 600
    Ingdigo Jump

    Also, now granted my friend who is the expert on this is Arab so possible bias, but according to him the archeology does not justify ownership of the current territory of Israel. It grants a portion of it but not the modern borders.

  101. 601
  102. 602
    Rutee Katreya

    I think I burned all the free time I want to spend on stupid people already. I kind of have work to do (I have what is arguably the best job) and I would like to play Uncharted Waters. We’ll see.

    Also, now granted my friend who is the expert on this is Arab so possible bias, but according to him the archeology does not justify ownership of the current territory of Israel. It grants a portion of it but not the modern borders.

    I have no fucking clue and tbh I don’t really care. I’d be fucking amazed if the borders matched up, but it does seem ultimately irrelevant.

  103. 603
    itto

    Rutteekatreya: I already have you nominated for a Mollie for your engagement with StevoR on this thread. Solid stuff, well said. One tiny twitch, when you mentioned Iran’s gender realignment strategy, and I’m trying to pin down the BBC Radio 4 programme it was on a couple of weeks ago: a gay Iranian interviewee wearily quoted the official Iranian line that there are no gay Iranians, and said that the relative ease in Iran for gender realignment procedure is that country’s response to homosexuality. I.E.: it’s more societally necessary to have MTF Iranians than gay Iranians. To be more specific, in Iran if you want to shag men, you need a sex-change. Women don’t appear to show up on this radar at all. I will try to find a link, and put it up here, but I just wanted to suggest that that one thing might not be a useful argumental point.
    Rest of your argument: stonking. Thank you.

  104. 604
    Rutee Katreya

    Yeah, I know. It’s their ‘cure’ for homosexuality. It’s not that they did an excellent job above and beyond the call of duty, it’s that given that the west treats sexuality as somehow complicating gender transition, I figured it worked out to about even. Westerners like to pretend they’re the m ost tolerant people on the planet, and like to forget about everyone that makes this inconvenient; in that context, I figured “trans-hating, gay accepters*” works out about evenly to “Gay-hating trans accepters*”.

    *For grudging values of ‘acceptance’ that don’t really include proper acceptance, but in most cases, bare toleration.

  105. 605
    kevinlyon

    PZ…I think I may have to leave this blog…I love you man. But creationist tuck tail and block. You need to apologize. You need to apologize now. It’s not your position that is so unacceptable…it is your behavior. You need to reinstate your colleague. You need to apologize. You need to do it now. Your intellectual integrity is at stake.

  106. 606
    microraptor

    Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

  107. 607
    Cipher

    I love you man… You need to apologize. You need to apologize now… You need to apologize. You need to do it now.

    Huh.
    Drunk posting, maybe?

  108. 608
    pentatomid

    Huh? WTF?

  109. 609
    ChasCPeterson

    Your intellectual integrity is at stake.

    yeah…no.

  110. 610
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    PZ…I think I may have to leave this blog…I love you man. But creationist tuck tail and block. You need to apologize. You need to apologize now. It’s not your position that is so unacceptable…it is your behavior. You need to reinstate your colleague. You need to apologize. You need to do it now. Your intellectual integrity is at stake.

    Wait. I don’t follow you.

    Can you say that again?

  111. 611
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Why do one-time fuckwitted idjits I’ve never heard of like kevinlyon all sound the same? Is there a TF toady making a series of posts under different pseudonyms? And why would they think it would be effective, when they all sound the same? Not hard to figure out they are all lying.

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