Christian love


A Christian prayer group really doesn’t like the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.

Now for our prayer, we pray that the women who work in your MFRR and the women in your family will befall fast moving breast cancer which can not everbe cured. We pray this for Leah Bruton, and Becki Miller, Patricia Corigan, Chris Rodda, Edie Disler, Vicky Garrison, Kristin Leslie, Melinda Moeton and Joan Slish. And you evil clan too, we pray this for Bonnie Wiensten and Amanda and Amber Wienstein and the woman lawyers Cariline Mitchel and Katherin Ritchy and all women of all who work at with for Military Freedom Against Religon Foundation.

The women targeted have nothing to worry about — you can’t get much more ineffective than sitting around wishing a nonexistent ghost would afflict your enemies — but the sad thing is that the women in this prayer group really believe in the efficacy of their magic incantation, and honestly want other women to suffer horribly from a painful, disfiguring, and life-threatening disease.

You shall know them by their love. Their blind, hateful, petty love.

Comments

  1. kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith says

    Ah, xian luuuuurve.

    Nothing quite like it.

    If we we as loving and compassionate as they are, we’d wish all of them would try to cure their cancers with prayer only.

  2. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    *Sigh*

    Would that prayer was the only hateful act these asswipes ever perpetrated.

  3. Brother Ogvorbis: Advanced Accolyte of Tpyos says

    Ah, I just loves me some imprecatory prayer. It shows the true love of the Christian far better than anything else.

    Could they be sued for attempted murder? They believe that prayer actually works. They honestly believe (or claim they honestly believe) that their prayers will be answered and their gods will smite these sinners with a deadly disease. So, do the courts assume that prayer does not work, in which case there is no case? or does the law assume that prayer does work, in which case this really does sound like attempted murder?

    Asshats, the lot of them.

  4. yellowsubmarine says

    “Ah, xian luuuuurve.

    Nothing quite like it.”

    But there are plenty of things like it! We just usually refer to it with… different terminology. At any rate we can be glad that these sociopaths are choosing to wave their hands at the sky instead of doing something actively harmful (other than writing nasty hate filled letters of course). Christianity… the great sociopath incapacitator (occasionally)?

  5. Larry says

    Wow, they’re really going Old Testament on their enemies, aren’t they. None of that smiting the first born male child stuff however. They’re looking to wipe out whole generations of women with nasty diseases.

    I wonder what they tell their children.

  6. carlie says

    Holy shit. I’ve never actually seen a group be this blatant and direct. You, named personally, to die of this specific disease. I agree; this is a death threat, and if it isn’t, then let them back down in court and say under oath that they don’t believe that their God answers prayer.

  7. says

    Carlie:

    this is a death threat, and if it isn’t, then let them back down in court and say under oath that they don’t believe that their God answers prayer.

    I would actually find the money to pay to see that. Yes, I would.

  8. Randomfactor says

    Could they be sued for attempted murder? They believe that prayer actually works.

    It’d be like that apocryphal Texas bar story: the legal strategy would pit atheists claiming potential injury from effective prayer and a bunch of Baptists swearing it’s worthless.

    http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/prayer.asp

  9. dianne says

    I already said this on TWiCN, but why breast cancer? Why not pancreatic or kidney or something (nearly) inevitably deadly? Probably because they want to make it clear that they’re specifically targeting women. Including uninvolved women (i.e. “the women in your family”.) Christian love, indeed.

  10. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Aw, how sweet of them. All that love and compassion makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

  11. says

    Dianne:

    Why not pancreatic or kidney or something (nearly) inevitably deadly?

    Because that wouldn’t drive home that these are evil, atheist women. Women who have the nerve to use their brains and raise their voices. They aren’t doing godly works, like being submissive and breeding and running roughshod over the other women in the church/community.

    It was either breast cancer or praying for their “wombs” to fall out, but the latter wouldn’t kill them. Also, breast cancer is much in the public eye.

  12. says

    Matt. 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

    Yet another of Jesus’ instructions thrown out the window. It is very clear that Christians do not believe the Bible any more than we atheists do.

  13. Brother Ogvorbis: Advanced Accolyte of Tpyos says

    Yet another of Jesus’ instructions thrown out the window.

    I have been a fan of Bloom County since it was available in the newspapers. One excellent story line involves everyone becoming born again. And one of the evils they attempt to stamp out is Penguin Lust! Which, of course, leades to one of the characters (don’t recall which) saying to Opus, “The bible tells us to love the sinner and hate the sin. And we do love you. Specifically, we would love you to leave.”

    These asshats think they are praying for these women. Because they know that there are no true atheists, only people angry with gods. They figure that, faced with inoperable breast cancer, the women will return to the fold, be born again, and rise to heaven. And those who don’t will go to hell, but that’s what they deserve anyway. They are praying for the women. Not in a way that is moral or decent to most of the world, but they are praying for them.

  14. unbound says

    So very many examples of xtian love, like this one. So hard to pick and choose the best example…

  15. says

    @silverbuttons:

    See also Matt. 7:20 “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

    In the exceedingly unlikely event that I ever have my own religion and my own holy book of scripture, I’d like to imagine it might include something along the lines of this:

    Wherefore by their nuts ye shall know them.

  16. dianne says

    It was either breast cancer or praying for their “wombs” to fall out, but the latter wouldn’t kill them.

    Well, ok, but what about ovarian? It’s much deadlier than breast and, unlike breast, men don’t get it at all. Or even cervical or uterine.

    Yes, I suppose it’s a little odd of me to be worrying about this, but it’s not like I’m going to stay up nights worrying that the prayer might be effective.

  17. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    The only ill that I will wish these people is that they are actually obeying commandments and are loving themselves as they love others.

  18. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    “Mickey Wienstien, we called you on the weekend to advice you that our womens prayer circle at our church will be ending your wickedness against Christ Jesus and his anointed of the USA in our military. In America which is Jesus’ country we can pray all we want for anything we want. you hung up on us and were rude to our leader.

    Oh yeah, it’s a total surprise she hung up on someone making threats (no matter how far-fetched) and spouting all kinds of hateful shit at her. And she was rude!
    *faints*

  19. says

    Dianne:

    Well, ok, but what about ovarian? It’s much deadlier than breast and, unlike breast, men don’t get it at all. Or even cervical or uterine.

    Ah, but ovaries and cervixes (?) and uteruses aren’t visible. Breastes, however, are and those evil, godless wimmins don’t use them for the right purpose, why they don’t even hide them in properly modest clothing! The horror!

  20. kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith says

    They figure that, faced with inoperable breast cancer, the women will return to the fold, be born again, and rise to heaven.

    What a weird, twisted reasoning.

    If I believed in god(s) and thought getting sick like that was some kind of punishment from it, I would despise and hate it for all eternity, and fuck that hell place. Spending eternity with such a disgusting asshole is already my idea of hell.

  21. joed says

    really nothing amusing or funny about the frame of mind it would take to create this Prayer.
    at best it sounds as though desperation has set-in at this “women’s prayer group”.
    Could be a poe but is still quit believable coming from a christian group.
    If there was some way to get the “prayer” into criminal or civil court would be interesting to see the outcome. Provided the court was reasonable. so many judges these days are part of a prayer group too!

  22. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Caine’s got it exactly:

    Ovaries simply go about doing the proper duty god ascribed to them: creating tiny, unicellular, haploid human beings!

    It’s those dirty breasts that go around violating all the laws of gods and nature by attracting sexual attention when they should be fulfilling their natural function: serving as a convenient way to partially support the bottle of formula when you’re feeding your baby and the phone rings.

  23. Brother Ogvorbis: Advanced Accolyte of Tpyos says

    What a weird, twisted reasoning.

    I do not know that this is their reason for doing it. This was the explanation given to me by a fundogelical dominionist as to why imprecatory prayer was acceptable. Enough pain, enough horrible things happening, enough stress, and the god haters would return to the fold. Again, I don’t know that this is the goal of this preyer group, but it fits.

  24. savoy47 says

    You don’t need to believe in prayer or a super being for it to have an effect. If a large group of atheists and non-theist offered a group “prayer” to the lord Satan asking him to work extra hard to corrupt the souls of those good loving Christians, they would spend a lot more of their time looking over their shoulders trying to figure out if that is sulfur they smell. That should keep them busy for a while. It would at least require a press release sent to their church to advise them of the Atheist love that’s on its way.

  25. yellowsubmarine says

    “Well, ok, but what about ovarian? It’s much deadlier than breast and, unlike breast, men don’t get it at all. Or even cervical or uterine.”

    I’d be willing to bet they don’t have enough education to know how to spell ovary, cervix, or uterus, much less what they are and whether or not men have them also. And OBVIOUSLY only women get breast cancer becuz only wimen have evil bits.

  26. dianne says

    Caine and Crip: I suppose that makes as much sense as any of this does…I think you must be right about the symbolism of breasts and the desire for visible mutilation of their enemies. Very traditionally Christian.

  27. says

    Crip Dyke:

    serving as a convenient way to partially support the bottle of formula when you’re feeding your baby and the phone rings.

    :Snorts: That’s actually how it was when I was born, in late ’57. Breast feeding was frowned upon at the time, bottle feeding was considered to be much more superior.

  28. Janstince says

    Ogvorbis –

    It was Hodge Podge, the rabbit that always hung out with Portnoy.

    I remember that one, as well. Oral Bill, played by Bill the Cat, had recently come off of his high and mighty role playing ‘Electric Tongue’ for “Billy and the Boingers”, nee “DeathTongue.” He had faded out of the limelight after being caught in a prayer session with a popular nun, and reinvented himself as a televangelist to swipe money from the gullible masses. And everyone copied his hairstyle (except Milo and Binkley) for a while.

  29. Brother Ogvorbis: Advanced Accolyte of Tpyos says

    It was Hodge Podge, the rabbit that always hung out with Portnoy.

    Ah, yes. The reference to the long-eared and the short-eared. In other words, the righteous and the unwashed heathens!

  30. says

    That is so “jesus-like” of them. Hypocritical jackasses. Seriously though–people wonder why I have something against Christianity? I mean, does any body other than atheists like us pay attention to this kind of shit? The level of nonsense that spews forth from Christianity alone in this country on a daily basis is mind-numbing…

  31. pedantik says

    This sounds just like some of the prayers I heard from some of the fundies I knew back when I was among their numbers.

    Thank God I don’t believe in him anymore.

  32. mikee says

    These people make me sick. I bet they go on about how “Christianity” is all about love and forgiveness elsewhere but their actions as usual speak louder than words.
    I found the recent Global Atheist Convention in Melbourne similar. The Christians said they were going to come along and peacefully talk to atheists about why we were wrong but all we got was a bunch of sanctimonious loons yelling through a bullhorn (or singing annoyingly) not to mention the Muslims who were distinctly venomous yelling burn in hell. If anyone hasn’t seen either there are plenty of videos on YouTube.
    Although PZ and others here have opened my eyes to the true face and danger of religion over the last couple of years, the performance of these religious groups at GAC brought it home ( and I know their behavior was tame compared to what has been seen elsewhere). They fill me with rage – but rather than let it burn me up I use it as a reminder of how truly evil religion can be, and that by not standing up to it, that even the kinder, compassionate Christians are enabling their nastier brethren.

  33. says

    Because that wouldn’t drive home that these are evil, atheist women. Women who have the nerve to use their brains and raise their voices.

    Exactly. They’re the sort of people who have to specify “the woman lawyers Cariline Mitchel and Katherin Ritchy.” Because their first names and the fact that the whole thing’s about women don’t establish that. Not legitimate lawyers – woman lawyers.

  34. philipqua says

    Couldn’t you charge them with attempted murder? After all it is not whether the attempt is successful or has any chance of success, it is the intent. Then we could hear them cry that prayer isn’t effective as their defense.

  35. Alverant says

    Randomfactor #11 (hmmm sounds like the name of a filk album)

    I have to disagree slightly. What matters is what the attacker believes. I heard of a court case where a business man shot his partner in the back through an office chair. But it turned out the victim had just died from a heart attack so the man shot a corspe. Since the man thought he was actually killing someone, he was convicted of attempted murder.

    But that’s with an actual weapon.

    This would be more like a man who’s told his toy Spaceman Spiff ray gun has a real gun inside that shoots real bullets (the 50’s sci-fi ray gun is just a disguise). So he goes up to his ex-boss and shoots the ray gun at him. Nothing happens. Now it’s obvious to everyone else the ray gun is a toy and doesn’t work, but the man thought for sure he was going to kill someone. Would he be guilty of attempted murder?

  36. beezlebubby says

    Seems to me that prayer directed toward harm is a form of witchcraft, punishable in the usual fashion. And to Ogvorbis above, did you deliberately misspell prayer and “preyer”? Because this shit is a lot closer to preying than it is praying.

  37. AstrySol says

    Had any of their targets ever got breast cancer, would they be hold liable for Homicide / Intentional Assault?

  38. Alverant says

    Janstince #35
    I remember that. That storyline was one of the first things that turned me away from religion. After Oral Bill is caught doing something unwholesome he tells his flock “God has forgiven me, why can’t you?” and a family watching on TV says, “He has a point. Dear, send him Billy’s college fund.” And I thought how stupid and wrong they were to do that. Of course I was pretty young at the time and thought there were people who actually did that. (Only to find out later things like that happened, just not that often.)

  39. carlie says

    It’s actually worse than a death threat – they’ve actively tried to “hire” a hit man to kill someone for them. I think that carries more severe punishment.

  40. says

    This is exceptionally disgusting, and I thought I was pretty jaded on the subject.

    YellowSubmarine:

    I’d be willing to bet they don’t have enough education to know how to spell ovary, cervix, or uterus…

    You beat me to it. I think the email proves it. Though to be serious I do agree with Caine, SC, etc. about the misogyny.

  41. says

    Wow, they’re really going Old Testament on their enemies, aren’t they. None of that smiting the first born male child stuff however. They’re looking to wipe out whole generations of women with nasty diseases.

    Nah, they’re much more progressive now. No more hurting men, women only.

    From beatrice’s link:

    In America which is Jesus’ country we can pray all we want for anything we want. you hung up on us and were rude to our leader.

    So, the atheist was rude, but wishing her to suffer horrible and die slowly is perfectly acceptable.
    Good thing my irony-meter is already broken.

  42. leonpeyre says

    As ever, immune to irony. Hard to believe they call another group evil while they themselves are doing an evil deed (attempting to do bodily harm to someone else).

  43. stonyground says

    It is pretty pathetic though isn’t it? If this is the best that they can do against us then we are laughing.

  44. says

    stonyground:

    It is pretty pathetic though isn’t it?

    I wouldn’t get too comfortable. This sort of thinking is dangerous. It’s why a number of doctors ended up murdered.

  45. says

    I like the idea of arresting for trying to interest a “hit man” into killing their enemies. That the “hit man” doesn’t exist is no different than when someone tries to hire a “hit man” online when there’s only a policeman on the other end.

  46. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @57 –

    It’s not criminal, but it can be the basis for a civil lawsuit. There’s been more than one successful one on that basis.

  47. NotAProphet says

    @ Katherine #27

    I thought that too, so did a quick bit of research, turns out about 12% of women in the USA get breast cancer at some point in their lives. These lovely examples of the evil of religion have named 14 women by name, and many others through association. How many of this group would have to contract breast cancer to vindicate their claim of a perfect record of prayer answering do you think?

    “We prayed for 800 women to get breast cancer and 100 did, fear our evil, vengeful god!”

  48. tariqata says

    Brother Ogvorbis@30: If “preyer group” was a typo, I think it might be the most fortuitous accident I’ve ever seen.

  49. baal says

    Thanks @46 crowepps

    As evil (mean?) as it is to wish others ill, the real impact is the climate it sets. It telegraphs to violent folks that they might not get punished or that it’s not wrongful to go out and target people with real physical actions and words. The abortion provider murderers and the bullies at that school in MN both came from local groups with this degree and flavor of derangement.

  50. Moggie says

    These hateful idiots are so impressed by Luke 9:1 that they mentioned it twice, though didn’t quote it. In Luke 9:1, Jebus gives his posse the magic power to heal the sick, and sends them out to do good. Four verses further on, he says: And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. Nothing about smiting boobies as punishment. Of all the hateful passages they could have chosen from the bible, why this? Other than that it suggests that they are no ordinary Christians, but Jebus’s closest acolytes with magical powers. The sin of pride…

    Janstince:

    remember that one, as well. Oral Bill, played by Bill the Cat, had recently come off of his high and mighty role playing ‘Electric Tongue’ for “Billy and the Boingers”, nee “DeathTongue.”

    I think you’re missing some umlauts there, if I remember correctly.

  51. Duckbilled Platypus says

    You know, sometimes it strikes me that belief-induced terrorism stems from the perpetrator’s observation that actually praying for someone to die doesn’t work.

    Unfortunately, their conclusion usually isn’t “God doesn’t exist”, or “God disagrees” or “God has different plans” or even “God wasn’t listening” but, somehow, that “God wants me to take care of it”.

    By the way, can you be found guilty of attempted murder by asking a hitman to kill someone, even if your hitman doesn’t actually exist?

  52. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    (in case someone else already noticed this, but I read the comments sloppily, sorry)

    Well, I thought this rude Mickey is a woman with a male-sounding name. But then I realized she’s not listed as one of those who should get breast cancer. So basically, the main “offender” gets no punishment, all the women working with him (and women in their families) get the punishment.
    I mean, the whole shit was already misogynistic as hell, but this just brings it to a whole nother level.
    (And yes, I know men can get breast cancer too. I doubt the prayer circle knows it, though.)

    Also, Mickey Wienstien is actually Mikey Weinstein. These geniuses didn’t even manage to spell his name properly.

    source

  53. rickschauer says

    I think it’s impossible to get a fair trial on something like this since the courts are manifest churches – at the center of which are sin, guilt, Judge, atone. Courtrooms even look like sanctuaries, pews, alters, robes, scribes, swearing on bibles, all rise, etc, etc…(big fukken sigh)

  54. says

    Breasts are sexy, at least if you’re a straight American man. Ovaries and cervixes and uteri are for baby-making, which is entirely unrelated to sex. Breasts have nothing to do with babies either–their only purpose is to entertain boys and men. All women are either mothers or whores, and whores are just walking breasts and vaginas and booties and vaginal cancer is actually just skin cancer anyhow. Also actual anal cancer? Only gay men get that.

    I really hope this is just a Poe, and if not, just a random mean nutter.

  55. Brother Ogvorbis: Advanced Accolyte of Tpyos says

    And to Ogvorbis above, did you deliberately misspell prayer and “preyer”? Because this shit is a lot closer to preying than it is praying.

    All hail Tpyos. Sometimes my tpyos are amazingly apropopos. No, that was not intentional.

    After Oral Bill is caught doing something unwholesome he tells his flock “God has forgiven me, why can’t you?” and a family watching on TV says, “He has a point. Dear, send him Billy’s college fund.”

    I knew a kid who lost all of his college savings that way. I think it was the Bakers who got it. And this was his savings account (with a parental cosigner because kids are not trustworthy) containing money he had earned buying calves and piglets and selling slaughterable hogs and steers. To the tune of about $40,000.

    Good thing my irony-meter is already broken.

    Mine broke over on TET.

    If “preyer group” was a typo, I think it might be the most fortuitous accident I’ve ever seen.

    Yes, it was a tpyo. Ranks up there with ‘strumpet solo.’

    I think you’re missing some umlauts there, if I remember correctly.

    I think there is a special term for metal band umlauts.

    . . . that “God wants me to take care of it”.

    And that is the scariest part. How many murders have been committed by someone who honestly believes that they are gods chosen instrument to carry out gods’ special plans?

    I mean, the whole shit was already misogynistic as hell, but this just brings it to a whole nother level.

    Yes, it brings it to the Christian Love level.

  56. raven says

    Needless to say this is just witchcraft.

    Begging or commanding a powerful supernatural being to do your will or fulfill your desires.

    There is no difference between xianity and any primitive superstition.

    PS And they aren’t doing it quite optimally. I think you are supposed to sacrifice a chicken or stick pins in a doll or something.

  57. machintelligence says

    Has the term “Natural Disasters” replaced “Acts of God” in the legal lexicon?

  58. beergoggles says

    Each new display of xtian “love” gives me hope that more and more good people will walk away from xtianity. Xtians are the best advertisement for atheism.

  59. says

    You guys realize it could be a poe right? Some unsourced email claiming to be from a group of Christians that are praying for people to get cancer….seems fake.

    Also, the focus on these “petty hateful” christians seems misplaced, since it’s definitely not the kind of prayers any christians I know would say.

    Of course, I don’t live in the bible belt, maybe it’s worse there than I realize.

  60. hexidecima says

    I think Brother Og got it right. The nasty creatures want to scare women. Pity a religon that only has fear and greed to motivate its followers.

  61. What a Maroon, Applied Linguist of Slight Foreboding says

    As despicable as the prayer is, what’ worse is their open identification of the US military with Jeebus. The combination of militarism and religious fundamentalism in this country is truly scary.

  62. says

    Also, the focus on these “petty hateful” christians seems misplaced, since it’s definitely not the kind of prayers any christians I know would say.

    It’s not at all misplaced. You don’t seem to know many Xians or know much about Xianity. The fuzzy wuzzy Jesus is luv types are a tiny minority.

  63. hexidecima says

    @ Philisyssis, we would hope that it was a fake email but unfortunately Christians have repeatedly done similar things and with plenty of evidence to demonstrate it. There is no good reason not to think these women are the good Christiasn they claim to be.

  64. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    philisyssis:

    You realize the only way it could be a Poe is if it’s indistinguishable from the real thing. It is frighteningly realistic. Although I don’t believe everything I read on the internet – in fact, I’m quite careful about what I’m willing to believe – if this is a true Poe, it wouldn’t matter, because that would mean by definition that Xians are doing this all the time.

    The real concern is that it is a non-Poe hoax, something that we should be able to tell can’t come from Xians, but failed to do so. Given the incredible list of horrible acts by Xians and a long tradition of asking the tetragrammaton for vengeance (going back before Xianity existed), arguing this is a non-Poe hoax seems quite the Sisyphian task.

  65. Moggie says

    dianne:

    I think there is a special term for metal band umlauts.

    The umlauts are silent.

    If only the bands were.

  66. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Also, the focus on these “petty hateful” christians seems misplaced, since it’s definitely not the kind of prayers any christians I know would say.

    If you don’t know any of that kind, then they must not exist!
    Or… maybe every time you hear about some despicable piece of shit like this group, you dismiss it as a fake.

    Not to mention that even vanilla Christians can be pretty harsh with their prayers and condemnations. They may not actively pray for someone’s illness or destruction, but they will gleefully say that the person “got what they deserve” if any misfortune strikes them. Since prayer works about as well as wishing on falling star, I don’t see much difference between wanting something bad to happen to someone or keeping quiet but then getting all smug over every bit of bad that happens to that person.

  67. dianne says

    Also, the focus on these “petty hateful” christians seems misplaced, since it’s definitely not the kind of prayers any christians I know would say.

    The Muslims I know don’t go around running planes into buildings, but that doesn’t mean no Muslim has ever run a plane into a building. Just because the Christians you know don’t pray for people to get breast cancer doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.

  68. says

    Beatrice:

    They may not actively pray for someone’s illness or destruction, but they will gleefully say that the person “got what they deserve” if any misfortune strikes them.

    Being tortured in hell for eternity gets mentioned a lot as well. Our resident godbots demonstrate that well enough.

  69. says

    Dianne:

    The Muslims I know don’t go around running planes into buildings, but that doesn’t mean no Muslim has ever run a plane into a building.

    All of the Christian anti-abortion crowd didn’t pull a gun and murder doctors or bomb clinics, however, enough of them did and their actions were supported and condoned by all the “good” Christians.

    Also, as I said previously, this sort of thinking is dangerous. There’s always a theist somewhere who is willing to do “God’s work”.

  70. truthspeaker says

    dianne says:
    25 April 2012 at 1:11 pm

    Well, ok, but what about ovarian? It’s much deadlier than breast and, unlike breast, men don’t get it at all. Or even cervical or uterine.

    Ovaries are on the inside. Godly men don’t allow themselves to learn anything about the insides of women’s bodies. Breasts are on the outside, everyone knows what they are, and godly men have thousands of pictures of them on their computer hard drives.

    And given how few people know that men can get breast cancer, I wouldn’t expect these fundies to be aware of that fact.

  71. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Being tortured in hell for eternity gets mentioned a lot as well

    Of course, that one too.
    Although, I don’t hear that all that often over here, so that’s why earthly punishments came to mind first. People love to gloat over lost jobs, illnesses, broken relationships, etc. as God’s punishment. Must be because it’s more satisfying to see what they like to think of as God’s work right now, instead of waiting for death. I think you can only still hear very old people threatening with fire and brimstone.

  72. dianne says

    All of the Christian anti-abortion crowd didn’t pull a gun and murder doctors or bomb clinics, however, enough of them did and their actions were supported and condoned by all the “good” Christians.

    Exactly the point. I was responding to a poster who was (IMHO) making a “no true Scotsman” argument, saying that the Christians s/he knew didn’t pray for people to get breast cancer, therefore the person or people who made the threat to MRFF probably weren’t Christians. I was trying to point out that just because some, most or even the vast majority of people of religion X wouldn’t do horrible thing Y doesn’t mean that none would.

    I’m tired and apparently didn’t convey this idea very well.

  73. dianne says

    People love to gloat over lost jobs, illnesses, broken relationships, etc. as God’s punishment.

    Except, of course, when it happens to the “godly”. Then it’s god’s test of faith.

  74. Rich Woods says

    @alverant #43:

    This would be more like a man who’s told his toy Spaceman Spiff ray gun has a real gun inside that shoots real bullets (the 50′s sci-fi ray gun is just a disguise). So he goes up to his ex-boss and shoots the ray gun at him. Nothing happens. Now it’s obvious to everyone else the ray gun is a toy and doesn’t work, but the man thought for sure he was going to kill someone. Would he be guilty of attempted murder?

    Strictly speaking he might be guilty, but I strongly doubt that he would be convicted. Any witness would only see him fire the toy ray gun, and examination of the ray gun would show that there was no actual gun hidden inside. So, quite a bit like prayer and God.

  75. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Maggie #79 –

    So. Much. Awesome.

    This coming from a fan of the Blue Clam Cult (of Buffy fame). I’m not a fan of them because they’re great, btw. I’m also a fan of REO Speedwagon and Neil Diamond: sometimes what your older sister or parents play when you’re a young child just sticks with you. Like epoxy.

  76. says

    @Caine

    Yes I know plenty about christianity. I was a christian till my mid 20s, my dad is a pastor, I went to bible college, and I even still sometimes go to church.

    @Crip Dyke, that’s a good point you’ve made about “if it’s a poe that’s because it’s indistinguishable from the real thing”

    As an atheist of only a few years, my biggest problem with the online atheist community is that they suffer the same pitfalls as religious people suffer. Someone posts an unsourced article about a group praying that people get cancer, and then 80 posts later people are still talking about how unloving and hypocritical those christians are. It’s called confirmation bias, you guys are selecting information that fits your world view and accepting it without question.

    But if someone were to post an article about something bad that an atheist group allegedly did, you would look up the source, or be quick to point out that there is no source.

    I know there are christians out there who are hateful (like westborough baptist) but in reality christianity isn’t like that. It’s like saying we shouldn’t drink because some people who get drunk beat their wives.
    I know people who are christian who I would never try to convince them otherwise, because it works for them, even if it’s not true, what they are doing is just fine.

  77. says

    Dianne:

    I’m tired and apparently didn’t convey this idea very well.

    You conveyed it just fine. I was simply providing yet another example for our “No True Christian” visitor.

  78. truthspeaker says

    philisyssis says:
    25 April 2012 at 4:02 pm

    I know there are christians out there who are hateful (like westborough baptist) but in reality christianity isn’t like that.

    Westboro Baptist isn’t in reality?

  79. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    philisyssis,

    I linked to the source in my #65. Admittedly, I didn’t write it’s the page where this originated from, so I’ll repeat it here:

    source

    Now, you might still claim that the poster made it up. Obviously, I can’t prove that the letter is not a fake, but it was published on the page of the very agency of which the members were targeted and not at some totally unrelated place.

  80. says

    It’s called confirmation bias, you guys are selecting information that fits your world view and accepting it without question.

    We know what confirmation bias is and we also know there are a lot of christians out there who live by hate because we deal with them first hand all the time.

    I know there are christians out there who are hateful (like westborough baptist) but in reality christianity isn’t like that.

    Here’s your problem: christianity is exactly like that. You just don’t like that. Remember confirmation bias? You have it. Also, you’re deep into the No True Scotsman fallacy.

    I know people who are christian who I would never try to convince them otherwise, because it works for them, even if it’s not true, what they are doing is just fine.

    Yes, yes, how adorable. We tend to being noisy Gnus around here. You want a seat at the accommodationist table, where you can bleat about how nasty and wrong we all are.

  81. Janstince says

    My apologies for the missing umlauts. Umlauts are not my forte, after all; I prefer piano (yuk yuk).

    And that is the scariest part. How many murders have been committed by someone who honestly believes that they are gods chosen instrument to carry out gods’ special plans?

    Well, you see, there was this man on his roof in a flood, and…

  82. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    I know there are christians out there who are hateful (like westborough baptist) but in reality christianity isn’t like that.

    No, Christianity is all puppies and fluff, there are just some mean folk doing it wrong.
    Not gay puppies of course. And the bitches know their place.

  83. Brother Ogvorbis: Advanced Accolyte of Tpyos says

    I know there are christians out there who are hateful (like westborough baptist) but in reality christianity isn’t like that.

    Who gets to decide who is, and who isn’t, a Christian? Aren’t Christians people who believe that Jesus was gods’ son and died and was resurrected for our sins? That covers a lot of people. Some you don’t like. Claiming that they are not Christians is a really poor argument. Actually, it is a logical fallacy.

  84. says

    @Beatrice, thanks for the source. I guess my main problem was how it looked, an unsourced claim was met with a “stupid hateful christians” response. Now that you have sourced it it’s different.

    @Caine, if you deal with hateful christians every day then maybe you should move out of the states. The rest of the world isn’t nearly so bad. Also, you can’t use the “no true scotsman” fallacy as a way to peg everybody with a label. It’s not considered a christian thing to do to worship Apollo. Is it a fallacy for me to say that someone who calls themselves a christian and worships Apollo isn’t really a christian? There are things that christianity isn’t. It also isn’t a teaching of jesus to be hateful and wish people would die. They may really be christians, but they’re actions are not. That is not a no true scotsman fallacy, it’s called understanding the things I don’t agree with.

  85. says

    philisyssis:

    But if someone were to post an article about something bad that an atheist group allegedly did, you would look up the source, or be quick to point out that there is no source.

    The source was provided, Punkin. Twice. As for atheists being bad? We’re experts when it comes to atheists being stupid, hateful or just assholes in general. We deal with a lot of those, too.

    Reality is really going to hurt when you smack into it if you don’t start engaging that brain.

  86. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    re: #98:

    Caine, I defer to you… and will continue to defer to you while I get my popcorn.

    **snack snack** [waiting to read 17 explanations of the No True Scotsman fallacy, none of which will be successful]

  87. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    @Caine, if you deal with hateful christians every day then maybe you should move out of the states.

    You would know how mean that is to say if you had any idea how often people from US write here that they would escape if they could.

    It also isn’t a teaching of jesus to be hateful and wish people would die.

    What about God? He’s one mean bastard.
    Condemning gay people isn’t hateful or are you just one of those who thinks “real” Christianity accepts homosexuality?
    *similar examples for subordination of women, all those pesky rules about sex, abortion, other religions and the whole hell business… and so much more*

  88. says

    [waiting to read 17 explanations of the No True Scotsman fallacy, none of which will be successful]

    Sigh….just because someone does something in the name of a religion doesn’t mean that it’s actually an action condoned by the religion. It isn’t a christian thing to do to pray that people get cancer. Could they have been christians acting hypocritically? Certainly, I would claim that they aren’t really christians, my point is that their actions are done in spite of what christianity teaches.

    There are some things that christianity isn’t about.

    Now tell me how that commits the no true scotsman fallacy.

  89. raven says

    I know there are christians out there who are hateful (like westborough baptist) but in reality christianity isn’t like that.

    This is the logical fallacy known as the No True Scotsman fallacy.

    Not all Al Qaeda members have flown planes into sky scrapers or drove a car bomb into a crowd. So what. It just means that some are murderers and some are supporters and enablers of murderers.

  90. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    It isn’t a christian thing to do to pray that people get cancer.

    But it’s a christian thing to pray to God to punish the sinners.
    Yes/no?

  91. raven says

    I know there are christians out there who are hateful (like westborough baptist) but in reality christianity isn’t like that.

    Enough are to make xians a scary bunch that you have to watch for. Mostly the fundie perversion, which admittedly, bears no resemblance to my natal xian sect.

    This group of wannabe witches is very tame compared to some xians.

    On a good day PZ Myers has gotten up to ONE HUNDRED death threats a day.

    A lot of scientists get them. Some xians toss off death threats like normal people say hello.

    Xian terrorism has been a problem in the USA for decades. They occasionally murder people, mostly MD’s.

    Phylisyssis:

    Yes I know plenty about christianity. I was a christian till my mid 20s, my dad is a pastor, I went to bible college, and I even still sometimes go to church.

    Phylis, your appeal to authority isn’t very convincing. Most of us, including myself, are exXians!!! Where do you think atheists come from anyway, the stork brings them? We know.

  92. says

    Crip Dyke:

    **snack snack** [waiting to read 17 explanations of the No True Scotsman fallacy, none of which will be successful]

    Oh man, I’m busy, can’t I just post a link? Pleeeeaaaase? I could just settle on telling our little Cupcake she’s seriously indulging in Ex equus pyga.*

    *”From the horse’s ass” is a variety of argument from authority. The horse’s ass claims a particular status such as former military or government service to lend weight to their assertions or imperatives. It is a supremely ineffective strategy, resulting only in the inflation of the horse’s ass’s own chest. Anyone who has ever tried to cinch a saddle girth tight on an unwilling animal knows that the beast is not that hard to outsmart. All it takes is patience, since sooner or later he must exhale.

    She’s a preacher’s daughter, ya see. She knows it all.

  93. says

    It also isn’t a teaching of jesus to be hateful and wish people would die.

    Way, didn’t this jesus guy also say something about he can’t do with people who don’t hate their brothers and such?
    Looks like christianity is the big mix ‘n’ match stand you get at the country fair.
    Something in it for everybody. And you don’t get to claim that somebody didn’T shot their because they didn’t buy the jelly-beans like you did.

  94. raven says

    It also isn’t a teaching of jesus to be hateful and wish people would die.

    CAFETERIA XIAN ALERT!!!

    Oh Gee. For a ministers daughter, she didn’t learn much. Jesus is a composite character and his teachings are incoherent and contradictory. Some are OK.

    Then there is the jesus who:

    1. Recommends that men castrate themselves.

    2. Says when he comes back, anyone who didn’t believe he is god will be executed.

    3. Gives advice on how to beat your slaves, seemingly not realizing that slavery isn’t a great thing.

    4. Rants and raves about the Jews in Matthew and John for a long time. This alone has cost the lives of who knows how many Jews in the last 2,000 years.

    5. Wants everyone to hate their family and quit their jobs to follow him. If too many people did this, the society would collapse.

  95. says

    philisyssis:

    @Caine, if you deal with hateful christians every day then maybe you should move out of the states.

    Fuck you, you pretentious, willfully ignorant Cupcake.

    It also isn’t a teaching of jesus to be hateful and wish people would die.

    Yes it is, ignorant little dimwit. You’re yet another Cupcake who hasn’t managed to actually read the bible. You just believe whatever shit was shoveled into your head.

    I studied the bible for 10 years, intensively. I know what it says, Sugar.

    Luke 19:26-28:

    For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

    But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

    And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.

    That’s your Jesus, punkin. Here’s some more, from Luke:

    And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
    17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
    17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
    17:32 Remember Lot’s wife.
    17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
    17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left
    17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    Here’s a bit from Matthew:

    25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    A little more from Matthew:

    10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
    10:36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
    10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

    I can do this all day. Don’t think you know anything, Cupcake.

  96. carlie says

    Know who preaches love and happiness and doesn’t condemn people outright? Joel Osteen. Know who the leaderships of most christian sects hate? Joel Osteen.

    Or there’s that guy who says there isn’t a hell, so people won’t get condemned to eternal punishment, Rob Bell. Know who else Christian leaders don’t like? <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/us/05bell.html"Rob Bell.

    Sorry, philisyssis, there’s a lot more Biblical evidence for mean Christianity than kind, and a lot more evidence that Christianity has trying to make bad things happen to other people as a basic tenet, not an odd quirk believed only by a few extremists.

    And you can drop it with the “you people don’t know Christians” schtick. There are an awful lot more of us who are ex-Christians than you realize, and a good many of it were in it as thickly as you are.

  97. imnotandrei says

    Ogvorbis #69
    “I think there is a special term for metal band umlauts.”

    Rock dots. Or, if you prefer, Röck döts. ;)

  98. says

    But it’s a christian thing to pray to God to punish the sinners.
    Yes/no?

    No

    That’s your Jesus, punkin.

    It isn’t my jesus, I don’t follow him.

    I can do this all day. Don’t think you know anything, Cupcake.

    Which of those verses implied that we should use prayer to give people deadly diseases? This is all just a red herring on your part.

    Do you guys actually think that anything that christians do in the name of christianity means that it must be a christian act? Good grief, talk about not understanding logical fallacies.

  99. kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith says

    I know there are christians out there who are hateful (like westborough baptist) but in reality christianity isn’t like that.

    Haven’t probed those loving xians very deep, haven’t you.

    We’ve had a couple of those ghouls here in the last few weeks who boasted about their nicey-nice jeeebus, why, they loved even those nasty atheists, dontcha know.

    While condescendingly implying that we were amoral beasts ’cause we don’t believe in their favorite fairy tale book. With a clueless double dose of misogyny.

    Xians only “love” those atheists whom they think they might convert. Show them this won’t happen, show them what you really think, however politely, and you’ll get to see the nastiness of the godly.

    And they think their “tolerance” of atheists somehow marks them as especially good, and that we should be so grateful for it.

    The only way you can keep relationships with them peaceful is to keep your thoughts for yourself. I know, that’s the way I deal with the members of my family who still believe.

  100. carlie says

    philisyssis, what do you think about the majority Christian response to Joel Osteen and Rob Bell? Their version of Christianity is opposed by the leadership of major denominations. You can’t handwave that away as a few extremists who don’t understand what Christianity really is, unless you want to go down the road that ends up with you and only you understanding Christianity and everyone else in the world is wrong.

  101. says

    It’s the “metäl umlaut”!

    Phillisyssis, you don’t get to decide whether those people are ‘true Christians’. They say they are Christians, therefore they are, in all their mean-minded, self-righteous squalor.

    The reason we don’t tend to doubt things like this is that they are far, far too common; also that parodies tend to have better spelling.

  102. says

    Do you guys actually think that anything that christians do in the name of christianity means that it must be a christian act? Good grief, talk about not understanding logical fallacies.

    So, cupcake, who’s the ultimate judge on what is christian and what isn’t?
    Only stuff that’s mentioned in the bible is christian?
    So, beating slaves apparently is…

  103. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Do you guys actually think that anything that christians do in the name of christianity means that it must be a christian act?

    Christianity is whatever Christians want it to be, more or less loosely based on what’s written in the Bible.
    How many Christians need to do something so that it becomes a christian act?

    No

    No comments on the second part of my #101?

    Which of those verses implied that we should use prayer to give people deadly diseases? This is all just a red herring on your part.

    Jesus fuck!
    First, Caine gave you examples to disprove your claim that Jesus is a nice progressive guy.
    Second, there are parts of the Bible lauding unbelievable acts of violence, but all you have to say is “it doesn’t specifically mention praying for breast cancer”?!

  104. says

    Phillisyssis, you don’t get to decide whether those people are ‘true Christians’. They say they are Christians, therefore they are, in all their mean-minded, self-righteous squalor.

    I never said they weren’t true christians. I said their actions weren’t.

    So, cupcake, who’s the ultimate judge on what is christian and what isn’t?
    Only stuff that’s mentioned in the bible is christian?
    So, beating slaves apparently is…

    This is still a red herring. It is not christian for people to pray for others to get cancer. What the bible says about slavery has nothing to do with that.

    (and yes, the part about beating slaves is certainly disturbing and shows a subjective morality, that’s one of my problems with christianity. That still has no bearing on the conversation at hand though)

  105. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Are you sure you are over the whole Christianity thing? You seem awfully determined to defend it.

  106. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    What the bible says about slavery has nothing to do with that.

    It has a lot to do with you claiming that Christianity is fine and dandy.

  107. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    What the bible says about slavery has nothing to do with that.

    Wrong. It shows the lack of moral underpinnings in the babble. Which you would acknowledge if you had ever read the book of mythology/fiction from cover to cover like many of us have. Are you wearing or have worn a cotton/polyester blend? When can we schedule your stoning? That is biblical morality to the present time.

  108. carlie says

    It is not christian for people to pray for others to get cancer.

    Says who, though?

    And are you purposely avoiding my question about Osteen and Bell?

  109. says

    Christianity is whatever Christians want it to be, more or less loosely based on what’s written in the Bible.
    How many Christians need to do something so that it becomes a christian act?

    If christianity is following the teachings of christ then doing something that wasn’t taught by christ isn’t a christian thing to do. This isn’t hard you guys.

    I asked before and I’ll ask again, do you guys honestly think that anything done in the name of christianity must therefore be a christian thing to do? ffs grow up

    Jesus fuck!
    First, Caine gave you examples to disprove your claim that Jesus is a nice progressive guy.
    Second, there are parts of the Bible lauding unbelievable acts of violence, but all you have to say is “it doesn’t specifically mention praying for breast cancer”?!

    So then that’s a “no”. None of those said that people should pray that others should get a disease. I see you tried to change what I asked for into “specifically mention praying for breast cancer” but I made my question general enough by asking if any of those commanded people to pray that others should get deadly diseases. So now you’re twisting my words to try to make this conversation go the way you want it to. Let’s try to be honest here.

    Praying for people to get cancer and die isn’t a christian act, even if someone doing so is a christian. No place in the bible says that we should do that. I don’t understand why this is so hard for you guys to grasp.

  110. says

    philisyssis:

    How would you feel if you entered the Magic Kingdom anticipating a normal day of fun with your family only to witness thousands of same-sex couples holding hands, hugging, kissing and wearing tee-shirts that promoted their lifestyle?

    LGBT (lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, transgender) activists converge on the Magic Kingdom the first Saturday of every June for an event called Gay Day at Disney.

    Just like activists’ attempts to gain access to youthful minds through LGBT characters in video games they also want to impact a captured audience of tens of thousands of children during the first Saturday of Summer Break.

    Last year Florida Family Association hired an aircraft company to pull a banner for ten hours the day before and ten hours the day of to warn families about this offensive event before they arrived at the park on Saturday.

    The airplane banner influenced mainstream family attendance at Disney during Gay Day to DROP between 50% to 60%. We believe this aircraft banner warning to families SPARED TENS OF THOUSANDS of children from the unexpected exposure to this coming out party. This airplane banner is the most cost effective manner to warn families before they:

    • Expose their children to same-sex revelry.

    • Spend hundreds of dollars on tickets.

    • Pay for parking.

    • Commit a day for fun now ruined.

    • Purchase food and novelties. The Florida Family Association, all christians.

    When students at Norwich University crowed their prom queen, something was missing. That something was a girl. Hello, I’m Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council in Washington, D.C. America’s oldest private military academy says it prides itself on being unconventional–and last month’s “gay prom” proved it. School officials said they wanted to have an “open dialogue” on homosexuality–but what they really had was a party. Unfortunately, this is America’s new military. When the President wanted to overturn “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” he didn’t talk about flying rainbow flags at Afghan bases or asking chaplains to perform gay “weddings.” He didn’t mention banning Christian speakers at military academies, tearing down crosses at Camp Pendleton, or pulling Scripture out of Army curriculum. What he said was it’s time to let homosexuals be true to who they are. And who they are is a community that thinks promiscuity is something to celebrate. Norwich’s “free love dance” and “condom Olympics” aren’t tolerance. They’re deviance. And a school of young, strong cadets deserve better. – Family Research Council, christian organization.

    Is it not apparent that the Bible Scriptures advocate discrimination, intolerance and the DEATH PENALTY concerning homosexuality? Then is not the Title of this writing true? If the very title made you angry, then this author must ask you the same question the Apostle Paul once asked: “Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?” Galatians 4:16 (KJV).

    For those who hate the truth, anyone who proclaims it they will also hate and will consider such a one an enemy. They will accuse their enemy of HATE and INTOLERANCE when in fact, it is they who hate and cannot tolerate the truth. For such people no amount of reason, patience or love will make the truth palatable to them unless they first repent.

    There are others who may not hate truth but are so far removed or confused concerning it, that when it’s heard, it sounds RADICAL and EXTREME. Many in America’s Judeo-Christian church world fall in this category. Because such people have been taught that being a radical or extremist is evil, they tend to reject any truth that, to them and their surroundings, seems radical or extreme.

    Once this author spoke to a political science class at a University and was billed as a right wing extremist. So the question was asked of the students, “How many Christians are there in the audience?” About half the hands went up. Next it was asked, “How many radicals, extremists or intolerant people are in the audience?” and not one hand was raised. What a contradiction.

    All the people who claimed to be followers of Jesus Christ also claimed not to be what He was. Frankly, He was willing to withstand public scorn and ridicule for truth (Matthew 27:40,41), offend people if necessary (Matthew 15:12) and even die for what He believed in. As for tolerance, he would not tolerate such people as the money changers and actually confronted them physically. (John 2:14,15) Obviously, He was a radical and an extremist to the virtuous, so-called Christian in the Jude-Christian churches, it all seems to unchristian.

    The truth of the matter is, in one respect, homosexuals are far more virtuous than are the lukewarm, cowardly, goody two shoes, praise the Lord Judeo-Christians. Homosexuals are willing to:

    * Promote their life style
    * Endorse public scorn and rejection if necessary
    * Rally to the aid of another homosexual
    * Fight any who oppose their life style and
    * As we shall see in this writing, are willing to prescribe the death penalty to those who oppose them.

    Unlike the modern day, lukewarm Judeo-Christian, they are radicals and extremists. To Jesus they are far more acceptable than the lukewarm Judeo-Christian. “I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I would that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.” Revelation 3:15,16 (NASV)

    This writing will be opposed as much by those who call themselves Christians as by homosexuals. They will try to reason or explain away these Bible verses that discriminate against and prescribe the death penalty for homosexuals. So in this writing, their futile objections and explanations will be answered. – Pastor Peter J. Peters, LaPorte Church of Christ

    On Wednesday, protesters from several religious orders came to the court to pray, surrounded by images of fetuses and the patron saint of Brazil.

    “The anencephalics are living human beings… Society, through its institutions, should foster full respect for their human dignity and their fragile and short lives,” wrote Cardinal Odilo Scherer in an editorial condemning abortion that was published in the media. – Cardinal Odilo Scherer

    The Lack of an Ancient Evolution story proves evolution isn’t true

    There are creation stories, flood stories, miracle stories and God stories that go way back in time, and passed down by oral tradition and then to ancient writings, however there is no evolution story. If evolution were true we should have at least some evolution stories passed down through the generations through oral tradition that our ancestors came from the trees and from an ape like creature.

    God Bless – I aint no monkey, Theology Online

    I am not at all saying that rape is okay or allowed. My point is that it’s a topic like Hitler that people (atheists) always bring out in arguments for shock value when it really doesn’t fit their point. I admit that I have maybe a bias because I’m a man and frankly I have a hard time imagining that I’d be traumatized for life if a woman forced herself on me. Maybe it’s really different for women but you have to admit that on the surface it doesn’t make a lot of sense for something to be incredibly pleasurable if one person does it to you and horrible if another person does it to you. I admit I might be wrong but I still think it’s probably overblown. There are a lot of worse things (like abortion).

    In addition I’m not advocating that God only punishes people who rape Christian women or only protects Christians. What my meaning is is that Christianity makes us strong and that a Christian can stand up to ANY kind of adversery better than a non-Christian because he has God’s strength behind him. You also must remember that God never gives us more of a trial than we can handle. If you have been raped and feel traumatized by it take comfort that God has not abandoned you and that He knows you can get through this.

    I’m praying for you all. – Censored One, IAmAnAtheist

    [In response to an atheist questioning why she cannot be outspoken while religious people can be]

    If you don’t like being one of God’s children, then why don’t you just dig your way into hell?

    What an absolutely DESPICABLE rant about godless sinning and hedonistic debaucheries.
    Atheist filth needs to be PURGED. The devil walks on earth, in the soul of EVERY ATHEIST!

    Jan-jaap Z. Brandthilde, The Skeptic Detective

    That’s not even the tippy-top of the tip of the iceberg, Cupcake. Go get acquainted with Rapture Ready, with Truth4Teens, with a thousand other christian forums, right here on the internet. You’ll see all the ugly and hate your delicate brain can handle.

  111. truthspeaker says

    philisyssis
    25 April 2012 at 4:20 pm

    There are things that christianity isn’t. It also isn’t a teaching of jesus to be hateful and wish people would die.

    You haven’t read much of the New Testament, have you?

    Hatefulness is a core component of Christianity, as is wishing for the death and eternal torment of others.

  112. says

    Are you sure you are over the whole Christianity thing? You seem awfully determined to defend it.

    I think that criticisms of christianity should be more thought out. A mindless “oh look a post on the pz myers forum about an unnamed group praying for people to get cancer…let’s make general statements about what christianity is about and assume that they are all like that” doesn’t deserve respect.

    Try real criticisms like Divine Hiddenness, or “theology and falsification” by Flew, or philosophical objections to qualia. The herd mentality of the new atheism can be mind numbingly brainless sometimes, it’s comparable to creationism.

  113. kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith says

    This is still a red herring. It is not christian for people to pray for others to get cancer. What the bible says about slavery has nothing to do with that.

    Why ?

    Because you don’t like it ?

    It’s an exemple of nastiness that comes straight from the book xianity is based on.

    So is the story of that guy calling two bears to maul children who had mocked him. Wish that wonderful all-loving god does grant.

    And the one about the guy offering his daughter for the town to rape.

    And all that stuff about people like us suffering for all eternity for not believing their brand of nonsense.

    Nastiness is part and parcel of xianity.

  114. says

    Audley:

    How about “shifting the goalposts”, sweetpea?

    Nuh uh, it’s all confirmation bias on our part!!1!

    philisyssis:

    Good grief, talk about not understanding logical fallacies.

    FFS, you little dimwit, you wouldn’t know a logical fallacy if it bit you on the nose.

  115. wytchy says

    This is just so, so sick. It’s bad enough that these Christians are hateful enough to wish that their sky daddy would inflict such harm on others, but to make it such a targeted, misogynistic attack on women in the form of incurable breast cancer? Really??

    One more item to throw on the mountain of reasons why religion is harmful.

  116. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    If christianity is following the teachings of christ then doing something that wasn’t taught by christ isn’t a christian thing to do.

    But doing something that is mentioned in the Bible is ok then.

    Now, where can I get me some slaves? Oh, that would have to be a husband with slaves. Damn.

    So now you’re twisting my words to try to make this conversation go the way you want it to. Let’s try to be honest here.

    You wrote this :

    It also isn’t a teaching of jesus to be hateful and wish people would die.

    Caine gave you quotes that disprove it. Quit shifting those goalposts back and forth, you’re giving me a headache.

  117. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    I asked before and I’ll ask again, do you guys honestly think that anything done in the name of christianity must therefore be a christian thing to do?

    Until you provide science and us with a “No True Christian” meter, that we can use to determine who is and isn’t a Christian, we take the simple approach of those who call themselves Xians, are Xians until they renounce it. So, where is your evidence these folks are Xians? Put up or shut the fuck up. Welcome to science, not injured ego.

  118. truthspeaker says

    philisyssis
    25 April 2012 at 4:34 pm

    [waiting to read 17 explanations of the No True Scotsman fallacy, none of which will be successful]

    Sigh….just because someone does something in the name of a religion doesn’t mean that it’s actually an action condoned by the religion.

    What about someone who does something in the name of a religion that follows from the traditional teachings of that religion?

  119. says

    So, philisyssis, who was sending Jessica Ahlquist those threats of rape and death? Who threatened PZ over the cracker incident? More not-Christians? My, there’s a lot of those not-Christians about – all of whom call themselves Xian, go to church, pray to someone called Jesus, etc.

    Would you maybe like to enumerate which of the 25000-odd variants of Xianity are the true ones and which are not?

  120. raven says

    It is not christian for people to pray for others to get cancer.

    Wrong again. Phylis doesn’t have the slightest idea what is in the xian magic book. In the bible, this is called “imprecatory prayer” and it is found all through it.

    BTW, Phylis managed to find another logical fallacy.
    She doesn’t speak for all xians, or even her cult. Just herself. There is no xian central and no agreed upon spokesperson. It’s all just someone’s opinion.

  121. truthspeaker says

    carlie
    25 April 2012 at 5:05 pm

    Know who preaches love and happiness and doesn’t condemn people outright? Joel Osteen.

    Except gay people.

    Don’t get me wrong, he condemns them pleasantly. He even says they can go to heaven, even though they’re sinning.

  122. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    philisyssis,

    You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.
    You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.
    You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.
    You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.
    You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.
    You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.
    You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.

    I repeated that a couple of times just in case you forgot that you wrote it and didn’t notice the dozen fucking times it was quoted and for some reason don’t notice it this time either.

    Talking about that is not a red herring. You wrote it which makes it open for discussion.

  123. says

    One simple question that has been avoided;

    Do you guys think that there are actions that can be performed in the name of christianity that aren’t really christian things to do?

    It’s a simple yes or no question and don’t try telling me it’s a malformed question.

    If your answer is “yes” then how would you determine it?

    If your answer is “no” then there’s no point trying to have a rational conversation with you about religion.

  124. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    If your answer is “no” then there’s no point trying to have a rational conversation with you about religion.

    I’d like an explanation of why.

  125. truthspeaker says

    philisyssis
    25 April 2012 at 5:50 pm

    I asked before and I’ll ask again, do you guys honestly think that anything done in the name of christianity must therefore be a christian thing to do?

    No. Only the things that follow from traditional Christian teachings, including but not limited to the teachings attributed to Jesus in the Bible.

    For example, praying for deadly misfortune to befall those people who don’t follow God’s will.

  126. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Do you guys think that there are actions that can be performed in the name of christianity that aren’t really christian things to do?

    Ooh, that’s a difficult one.

    I choose… asking a True Christian. They would know! Too bad you can’t find those in yellow pages.

  127. says

    You wrote that being hateful isn’t a teaching of Jesus.

    none of the verses in post 111 told us to be hateful towards others. I would look up verses where jesus said we should be loving and turn the other cheek, buy you guys all claim to have read the bible so I won’t bother posting them.

    Now please respond to #145

  128. carlie says

    One simple question that has been avoided;

    Sorry philissis, you avoided mine first. No fair asking question after question if you’re not going to answer any.

    truthspeaker – crap, I’m sorry. I didn’t know Osteen was against gays. All I really know of him is the backlash against him, so I dind’t know he was on their side on anything.

  129. says

    There’s a huge range of beliefs held by Christians and which Christians hold up as Christian. Some of it is fairly generic and positive stuff, like “Do unto others.”

    I would ask to what extent is that Christian? It’s a sentiment common to many societies. Do you say that ten fingers and ten toes are “Christian” because the overwhelming majority of Christians have ten fingers and ten toes?

    The hate is mail is characterized by the following:

    It was written by Christians.
    The Christians who wrote it claim to be behaving in a specifically Christian manner.
    They claim to be upholding the beliefs of Jesus.
    They have cited Christian scripture to uphold what they are doing.

    All of these are specifically Christian. An atheist could not do them. An atheist can write hate mail, and an atheist could do unto others as she would have others do unto her, but she cannot cite the Bible as her authority. Likewise the examples cited by Caine. They are not representative of the majority of Christians, but they are specifically Christian.

    Therefore, sorry. It’s Christian. It is a bad thing that people did because they were Christians and would not have done if they had not been Christians. Sure, maybe they would have found an excuse to do some other bad thing if they had been something else–but they didn’t.

    That is assuming it’s not just a dumb Poe.

  130. says

    Do you guys think that there are actions that can be performed in the name of christianity that aren’t really christian things to do?

    No, because if an action is done in the name of Christ, it’s a Christian action by definition!

    Will you please leave us alone now? I’m sure you can find some nice Christians to have a circle jerk with.

  131. carlie says

    none of the verses in post 111 told us to be hateful towards others.

    Luke 14:26
    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    I would look up verses where jesus said we should be loving and turn the other cheek, buy you guys all claim to have read the bible so I won’t bother posting them

    Yep, we know them. And their existence doesn’t get to cancel out the existence of the other ones, like Luke 14:26.

  132. Just_A_Lurker says

    You would know how mean that is to say if you had any idea how often people from US write here that they would escape if they could.

    I sure as fuck would if I could.

    philisyssis

    The rest of the world isn’t nearly so bad.

    Live in my fucking world surrounded by religious fucking assholes coercing me to let them psychological torture my child with the idea of Hell.

    Take your accommodating ass and stuff it with a porcupine. Hate is a part of Christianity, especially here in the U.S., if you are too fucking stupid to see then shame on you. Take your fucking blinders off and see through your privilege. Otherwise, GTFO until you come to your senses.

  133. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    I would look up verses where jesus said we should be loving and turn the other cheek

    Jesus’s teachings are incoherent on a great many things. For that reason, the fact that you can produce “loving” verses doesn’t actually provide useful evidence that hate wasn’t among his teachings. What exactly is unChristian here? Which exact part? Is it the cancer, because the Bible never said anything about cancer? Is it prayers for people to die? Is it meanness? What claim are you trying to make, defined as specifically as possible?

  134. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    I would look up verses where jesus said we should be loving and turn the other cheek, buy you guys all claim to have read the bible so I won’t bother posting them.

    The babble also consists of the Old Testament. Now, if you have worn polyester/cotton blends, or haven’t ritually purified yourself after your menstruation, when can we arrange the stoning? All or nothing on the babble. I suggest nothing, including the pick and chose from the new testament, as it is a book of mythology/fiction, and you would do better ignoring it.

  135. says

    Do you guys think that there are actions that can be performed in the name of christianity that aren’t really christian things to do?

    No, not really. The Bible pretty much sanctions doing anything that God tells you to do, and once you assign the voices in your head the title of “God,” it’s pretty much wide open.
    You have your idea of “christian things to do,” and others have theirs. And all find justification in the new and old testaments.
    The reason why you have disagreements over the fundamental teachings that last for centuries is because religion and faith are an inherently faulty mode of thinking–when you put all that importance on faith, scripture and dogma, and retain beliefs in the face of contrary evidence, and consider it a virtue, you’ve disengaged your reality check.
    Which basically removes any real limits on what you can do.

  136. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    God never gives us more of a trial depleted uranium than we can handle.

    damn I miss the brunching shuttlecocks…

  137. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    none of the verses in post 111 told us to be hateful towards others. I would look up verses where jesus said we should be loving and turn the other cheek, buy you guys all claim to have read the bible so I won’t bother posting them.

    So, you are basically picking and choosing the nice parts and determined to ignore the blood and gore. Good of you to admit it.

    Caine provided the passages, I’ll just repeat the last one.

    10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
    10:36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
    10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

    And do I even have to comment on this? Really?

  138. says

    Raven:

    imprecatory prayer

    Yes, something else all the flavours of christianity don’t agree on, however, plenty of them use it.

    When David prayed for God to shatter the teeth of his enemies, likening them to young lions pursuing him to his death, he was making the point that God is holy, righteous, and just, and He will ultimately judge the wicked for the evil they do. Jesus quoted some of the imprecatory psalms during His earthly ministry. In John 15:25, Jesus quotes Psalm 35:19 and 69:4, and Paul did so as well in Romans 11:9-10, which is a quote of Psalm 69:22-23. Since Jesus and Paul quoted verses from these imprecatory psalms, it proves those psalms were inspired by God and removes all doubt that they were sinful or simply selfish prayers of revenge.

    Pastor Wiley Drake Calls for Imprecatory Prayer against So-Called Religious Liberty Watchdog Group

    MEDIA ADVISORY, Aug. 14 /Christian Newswire/ — In light of the recent attack from the enemies of God I ask the children of God to go into action with Imprecatory Prayer. Especially against Americans United for Separation of Church and State. I made an attempt to go to them via Matt 18:15 but they refused to talk to me. Specifically target Joe Conn or Jeremy Learing. They are those who lead the attack. (You can see their press release attack at http://www.au.org )

    Imprecatory prayer, is now our duty

    Now that all efforts have been exhausted, we must begin our Imprecatory Prayer, at the key points of the parliamentary role in the earth where we live.

    John Calvin gave the church its marching orders from Scripture. The righteous have dominion, but only through imprecatory prayer against the ungodly.

    David as our Old Testament shepherd gives us many Imprecatory prayers, and can be found to be in best focus in Psalm 109. Also chapters 55, 58, 68, 69, and 83

    Pray these back to God and He will answer.

    Jesus in Matthew 23: 13, 15, 16, 23, 24, 27, and 29 gave us our New Testament marching orders as well.

    Let us join Paul and declare anathema upon anyone” who loves not the Lord Jesus.” I Cor 16:22

    Church father Martin Luther, led us by saying…”If any of the enemies of God’s people belong to God’s election, the church’s prayer against them giveth way to their conversion, and seeketh no more than that the judgment should follow them, only until they acknowledge their sin, turn, and seek God.”

    How to pray

    Please join us, with Bible in hand, and let us do battle against the enemies of God.

    Everyday telephonic prayer meeting (for those who want to pray)

    Sergeant Suspended for Imprecatory Prayer Against President Obama

    Sergeant Matthew Neu has been suspended for imprecatory prayer against President Obama. This Psalm has been a favorite among certain segments of “Christians” since the President took office. Imprecatory prayer is often referred to as “Psalm 109″. It reads: “Let his days be few – and let another take his office… Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.”

    Imprecatory prayer seems to be increasing in popularity lately: Psalm 109 is one of the imprecatory prayers found in the Psalms. “Pray for Obama: Psalm 109″ bumper stickers and t-shirts are very popular among a certain segment of the population.

    in June of 2009, Wiley Drake, pastor of First Southern Baptist Church in Buena Park, Calif., and former running mate of American Independent Party presidential candidate Alan Keyes, admitted to using imprecatory prayers against now- murdered abortion provider Dr Tiller.

    Asked if there are others for whom Drake is praying “imprecatory prayer,” Drake hesitated before answering that there are several. “The usurper that is in the White House is one, B. Hussein Obama,” he said. Later in the interview, Colmes returned to Drake’s answer to make sure he heard him right.
    “Are you praying for his death?” Colmes asked.
    “Yes,” Drake replied.
    “So you’re praying for the death of the president of the United States?”
    “Yes.”
    “If he does not turn to God and does not turn his life around, I am asking God to enforce imprecatory prayers that are throughout the Scripture that would cause him death, that’s correct…..”

  139. says

    No, because if an action is done in the name of Christ, it’s a Christian action by definition!

    Ah yes the lazy atheism, don’t actually think about what position you are against, just make ignorant claims that aren’t even logical and continue to be mad at them all because of an unsourced email….

    And I certianly wouldn’t want to have a circle jerk with christians, I tend to challenge them with legitimate arguments, not the ignorant nonsense that seems to be barfed into the comment section of this blog.

    (Having said that I do appreciate a lot of PZ’s posts, as well as many of the “why i am an atheist” posts, it’s just some of the commentors here know as much about religion creationists do about evolution, and their ignorance shows in the way they argue)

  140. says

    No, not really. The Bible pretty much sanctions doing anything that God tells you to do, and once you assign the voices in your head the title of “God,” it’s pretty much wide open.

    I thought about this while posting today and wondered if anyone would bring it up. I think it’s a good point. It’s usually what I bring up when arguing over whether or not there are objective morals with god.

  141. Nutmeg says

    Examples of prayer for bad things to happen to one’s enemies:

    Judges 5:

    5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.
    5:25 He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.
    5:26 She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen’s hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.
    5:27 At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead.
    5:28 The mother of Sisera looked out at a window, and cried through the lattice, Why is his chariot so long in coming? why tarry the wheels of his chariots?
    5:29 Her wise ladies answered her, yea, she returned answer to herself,
    5:30 Have they not sped? have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two; to Sisera a prey of divers colours, a prey of divers colours of needlework, of divers colours of needlework on both sides, meet for the necks of them that take the spoil?
    5:31 So let all thine enemies perish, O LORD

    Judges 11:

    11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
    11:31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
    11:32 So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.

    2 Samuel 3:

    3:28 And afterward when David heard it, he said, I and my kingdom are guiltless before the LORD for ever from the blood of Abner the son of Ner:
    3:29 Let it rest on the head of Joab, and on all his father’s house; and let there not fail from the house of Joab one that hath an issue, or that is a leper, or that leaneth on a staff, or that falleth on the sword, or that lacketh bread.

    Acts 13:

    13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
    13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
    13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
    13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

    Psalm 35:

    35:1 Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.
    35:2 Take hold of shield and buckler, and stand up for mine help.
    35:3 Draw out also the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me: say unto my soul, I am thy salvation.
    35:4 Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.
    35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.
    35:6 Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.

    —–

    I haven’t picked up a Bible in about 3 years, and it took me 10 minutes to find those. And that’s by no means an exhaustive list.

  142. carlie says

    That is an impressive bit of blockquote fail there, if I do say myself. Now if I can just get an italics fail,/i>, I’ll have a trifecta.

  143. Wowbagger, Madman of Insleyfarne says

    philisyssis wrote:

    No place in the bible says that we should do that.

    ‘We’? I thought you weren’t a Christian.

    But, that aside, are you claiming Christians are only allowed to do exactly what it says in the bible? Guess there are going to be a lot of abandoned cars on the road tomorrow, ’cause I don’t ever recall seeing a reference to automobiles in there anywhere.

    Do you guys think that there are actions that can be performed in the name of christianity that aren’t really christian things to do?

    Define “Christian things”. Then demonstrate how you know that to be the correct definition.

  144. says

    I would look up verses where jesus said we should be loving and turn the other cheek, buy you guys all claim to have read the bible so I won’t bother posting them.

    We already know them, you dimwit. The point is, you’re ignoring all the verses which show you to be wrong. This is known as cherry-picking, Cupcake. If you’re going to believe the bible, you don’t get to toss out the nasty shit and threats Jesus said and issued just ’cause that make you wrinkle up your nose.

    Those verses don’t cancel out the others.

  145. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    ignorant claims that aren’t even logical

    You’re fantastic at arguing. Really, all you need are assertions and feigned incredulity. Don’t even bother explaining them. That’s very convincing and you should keep it up.

  146. carlie says

    I am feeling SO IGNORED by philissysis.Osteen? Bell? Heck, you could even comment on why it took so long for anyone to criticize Richard Land.

  147. says

    Well it’s been fun fucking with you guys. LOL at Caine for getting his/her panties in a knot. You should probably go do some needle work now to calm yourself down.

  148. says

    CC:

    Is it the cancer, because the Bible never said anything about cancer?

    Oh, now, Cassandra. This is like toying with the ever so lovely christians at RR, who often exhibit confusion as to why their god didn’t mention America in the bible.

    Cancer, specifically, was unknown then. It would have been considered to be one of many “wasting diseases”. So much for that whole omniscience business. So much useful info just didn’t make it into god’s holy word.

  149. says

    And I certianly wouldn’t want to have a circle jerk with christians, I tend to challenge them with legitimate arguments, not the ignorant nonsense that seems to be barfed into the comment section of this blog.

    Is this your idea of “challenging them with legitimate arguments?

    If your answer is “no” then there’s no point trying to have a rational conversation with you about religion.

    Ah, yes. We can have a nice long, fruitful discussion about why you’re right and we’re wrong. Should be productive!
    Really, there’s a reason why christianity, along with the other major religions, keeps diverging into innumerable sects and denominations. Because when you rely on things like ancient scripture and internal revelation for your information about the world, you have no means by which to test competing ideas.
    And some, like the examples provided you, get really bad ideas, violent ideas. And they cannot be reasoned out of them, because they didn’t acquire them through reason.

  150. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Let’s take, for a moment, for granted the idea that “American” is indicating the US specifically and not everyone/every nation in the Americas generally.

    With that definition in mind, is it unfair to say that supporting the ousting Allende in a tide of blood was an American action, or since the constitution doesn’t mention supporting or not supporting coups in South American nations that it is fundamentally wrong and misleading to call this action, “American.”

    Can nominating conventions for presidential candidates be said to be an “American” practice, or is that fundamentally wrong and misleading since no mention of nominating conventions exists in the US Constitution?

    Saying that something is a Christian action only when you like it, even though the bible clearly teaches hate and violence as well as love and kindness, when there’s so much in there that is wide open to interpretation and can be taken as “teaching” if you wish, is what seems fundamentally dishonest to me.

  151. Wowbagger, Madman of Insleyfarne says

    philisyssis, if the specifics of Christianity are so obvious and straightforward, why are there so many different sects/denominations?

  152. says

    philisyssis, you are the ignorant, irrational one here. All you’re doing is parroting the shit that was hand-shoveled into your head. You have little life experience, you’re definitely lacking in the knowledge department and you show zero signs of any ability to learn or think.

    I’m pretty sure you’re still a “christian”.

  153. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Silly carlie, pope isn’t a True Christian. You know what, let’s just scrap all Catholics.

  154. carlie says

    Fucking with us? Sweetie pie, we love doing this. See, even if you think you’re just screwing around, we know that what’s happening is that a portion of the hundreds of thousands of visitors PZ gets really do believe like you claim to, and that they read the responses we give to you, and either it makes them change their mind, or it makes them shut up and not bother us all the time about it. Plus, it keeps us in shape for the real religious zealots we always get. You’re not a troll, honey, you’re our treadmill.

  155. says

    Phil:

    Ah yes the lazy atheism, don’t actually think about what position you are against, just make ignorant claims that aren’t even logical and continue to be mad at them all because of an unsourced email….

    Hey, fuck you! At least I’m smart enough not to misuse logical fallacies (what exactly was the red herring in Caine’s statement again…?)

    Besides, as others have demonstrated in this fucking thread the bible is full of contradictory messages: “turn the other cheek”, but “I bring not peace, but a sword”. I recognize the fact that with literally thousands of sects, no one can actually determine what a “Christian action” is and have it apply across the board. You, apparently, do not.

    Just because you are stupid enough to believe that “real Christians” are really nice and sweet people who don’t write hate mail doesn’t make it true. Real Christians kill people, bomb clinics, commit acts of terrorism, prevent LGBT people from having full civil rights, prevent women from seeking family planning services/abortion… I could go one, but you get the point.

    So, dear, how about you define a Christian action and back it up with biblical sources? And we’ll see how long it takes for someone to tear your worthless assumption down.

    Nerd:

    The babble also consists of the Old Testament. Now, if you have worn polyester/cotton blends, or haven’t ritually purified yourself after your menstruation, when can we arrange the stoning?

    Hey, if we’re going for disturbing, don’t forget about Revelation, which many people seem to want to ignore.

    Wasn’t there a bit about “crushing unbelievers in the winepress of the wrath of God” or something like that?

  156. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    Cancer, specifically, was unknown then. It would have been considered to be one of many “wasting diseases”. So much for that whole omniscience business. So much useful info just didn’t make it into god’s holy word.

    Aww, Caine, you gave it away! :C

    But I guess trollikins is flouncing anyway. And with a parting shot at you, no less, with the always-charming self-important assumption that you’re Dreadfully Upset by hir behavior. I’m not sure what xe means by mentioning your needlework in what seems to be an attempted insult of some kind, but well, the mysteries of the troll psyche…

  157. says

    philisyssis, you are the ignorant, irrational one here. All you’re doing is parroting the shit that was hand-shoveled into your head. You have little life experience, you’re definitely lacking in the knowledge department and you show zero signs of any ability to learn or think.

    I’m pretty sure you’re still a “christian”.

    read post 169 nooblzaurus

    You care too much about what is said in the comment section of a blog. I suggest you call some people up and get out tonight.

  158. Nutmeg says

    Let’s have some more New Testament examples, just to round things out:

    Galatians 1:

    1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    Revelation 11:

    11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

  159. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    dangerously close to failing to stick the flounce. I leave it to others if 169 was calling the flounce or not…but it sure sounded like it to me.

  160. says

    You’re not a troll, honey, you’re our treadmill.

    Oh Carlie, I love you. ♥

    Phil:

    LOL at Caine for getting his/her panties in a knot.

    You really are an idiot, Sugar. You are a fine example of christian “thought” in action. I’ve been laughing and chatting with Mister during this whole exchange. By the way, I’m commando. You couldn’t get my panties in a knot for love or money, Sweetpea. *smooch*

    You should probably go do some needle work now to calm yourself down.

    Aaaaw, such a failure, even in attempts at insults. Needs work, Sugar.

  161. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Aw, I still haven’t gotten an answer to my question about hating gay people. I kinda hoped philisyssis would pull “hate the sin, love the sinner” on that one.

  162. truebutnotuseful says

    philisyssis wrote:

    Well it’s been fun fucking with you guys. LOL at Caine for getting his/her panties in a knot. You should probably go do some needle work now to calm yourself down.

    You care too much about what is said in the comment section of a blog. I suggest you call some people up and get out tonight.

    Meh…I only give you 6 out of 10. You forgot the trollface.gif and the “lol u mad?!”

  163. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    You care too much about what is said in the comment section of a blog. I suggest you call some people up and get out tonight.

    Wow! That’s incredibly clever and original! I bet you are the pride of whatever rock you crawled out from under.

  164. Wowbagger, Madman of Insleyfarne says

    philisyssis wrote:

    You care too much about what is said in the comment section of a blog.

    Oh, you’re one of those people who doesn’t seem to realise there are other people reading the blog who may take on board what gets written, even when the troll getting stomped turns out to be a poe.

    How…ignorant.

  165. says

    dangerously close to failing to stick the flounce. I leave it to others if 169 was calling the flounce or not…but it sure sounded like it to me.

    What I said about myself was true, I was a christian most of my life and in the last few years I’ve left it.

    I really do think that there are a lot stupid arguments against religion. Buying into unsourced articles is confirmation bias.

    As for the details of the bible, I was arguing for the sake of arguing. I know that it teaches horrible stuff and that’s part of the reason I left. Whetehr you beleive me or not I couldn’t care less about. You are a faceless poster in a comment section of a blog.

  166. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Well it’s been fun fucking with you guys.

    If you were just trolling, it proves both you and your fellow Xians are nothing but liars and bullshitters. Show some morality the next time you think about trolling, which isn’t in the babble. Not bearing false witness is, and false witness is required for trolling.

  167. carlie says

    dangerously close to failing to stick the flounce.

    And ignoring my question while failing to stick the flounce! It’s almost as if phil doesn’t want to admit that their out-of-their-ass definition of Christianity doesn’t hold up in the real world.

  168. Sili says

    Well, since praying for someone’s survival tends to make them die faster, I’ll presume that praying for someone to die, will ensure them a long and happy life.

  169. says

    You care too much about what is said in the comment section of a blog. I suggest you call some people up and get out tonight.

    Would somebody like to call for a fair catch, or should we let that punt bounce out-of-bounds?

  170. says

    Wow! That’s incredibly clever and original! I bet you are the pride of whatever rock you crawled out from under.

    Caine’s derhogatory use of the word cupcake was meant to get a rise out me yet I’m the one that crawled out from under a rock….

  171. says

    Beatrice:

    Aw, I still haven’t gotten an answer to my question about hating gay people. I kinda hoped philisyssis would pull “hate the sin, love the sinner” on that one.

    It’s not at all fair, the way you and Carlie are being ignored and dismissed.

    Hey, Phil! You’re being all stupid and nasty and definitely christian to Beatrice and Carlie. Try a little honesty, Sugar and answer their questions. (Yes, we know you actually can’t. We’re just polishing our fangs, Hon.)

  172. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    Whetehr you beleive me or not I couldn’t care less about. You are a faceless poster in a comment section of a blog.

    But you do care, don’t you? All you trolls and poes do. It’s the whole reason for your being here.

  173. carlie says

    Caine’s derhogatory use of the word cupcake was meant to get a rise out me yet I’m the one that crawled out from under a rock….

    Oh, you’re a tone troll too? This is fantastic. Imma get the popcorn going.

  174. says

    Damn, my comment got cut off.

    CC:

    And with a parting shot at you, no less, with the always-charming self-important assumption that you’re Dreadfully Upset by hir behavior.

    Yes, the psychic-defense so they don’t have to consider their own stupidity.

    BTW, I called first on Cupcake being a christian, I demand cookies.

  175. carlie says

    Caine – thanks. I’ll put extra butter on your popcorn. :) And also some extra for Beatrice, to salve the pain of not being paid attention to by phil.

  176. Wowbagger, Madman of Insleyfarne says

    philisyssis wrote:

    What I said about myself was true, I was a christian most of my life and in the last few years I’ve left it.

    Considering how much effort you went to to defend it, I’d say you’re not as far from it as you’d like to think you are.

  177. says

    Phil:

    Caine’s derhogatory use of the word cupcake was meant to get a rise out me yet I’m the one that crawled out from under a rock….

    Get a spellchecker and learn to use it, Cupcake. No, I didn’t use it to get a rise out of you. You didn’t deserve any other consideration after you showed yourself to be a liar. Cupcake is a meme here and it is used when it’s merited.

    This also has nothing to do with you ignoring all the hard questions aimed your way. You’re the one stinking of rotting fish*, Cupcake.

    *That would mean red herrings for the hard of thinking.

  178. Nutmeg says

    And some Psalms, since those are apparently a “nice” part of the Old Testament that cafeteria Christians are allowed to read:

    Psalm 58:

    58:6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.
    58:7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.
    58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

    Psalm 59:

    59:8 But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision.
    59:9 Because of his strength will I wait upon thee: for God is my defence.
    59:10 The God of my mercy shall prevent me: God shall let me see my desire upon mine enemies.
    59:11 Slay them not, lest my people forget: scatter them by thy power; and bring them down, O Lord our shield.
    59:12 For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips let them even be taken in their pride: and for cursing and lying which they speak.
    59:13 Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be: and let them know that God ruleth in Jacob unto the ends of the earth. Selah.

    Psalm 69:

    69:16 Hear me, O LORD; for thy lovingkindness is good: turn unto me according to the multitude of thy tender mercies.
    69:17 And hide not thy face from thy servant; for I am in trouble: hear me speedily.
    69:18 Draw nigh unto my soul, and redeem it: deliver me because of mine enemies.
    69:19 Thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour: mine adversaries are all before thee.
    69:20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none.
    69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
    69:22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.
    69:23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

    Psalm 109:

    109:1 Hold not thy peace, O God of my praise;
    109:2 For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
    109:3 They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause.
    109:4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
    109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.
    109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.
    109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.
    109:8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
    109:9 Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
    109:10 Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.
    109:11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.
    109:12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.
    109:13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
    109:14 Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.

    Psalm 140:

    140:8 Grant not, O LORD, the desires of the wicked: further not his wicked device; lest they exalt themselves. Selah.
    140:9 As for the head of those that compass me about, let the mischief of their own lips cover them.
    140:10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

    —–

    The Skeptic’s Annotated Bible really is an excellent resource. I didn’t even have to go to the basement and dig out my old Bible.

  179. truebutnotuseful says

    philisyssis wrote:

    ignorant nonsense that seems to be barfed into the comment section of this blog.

    You care too much about what is said in the comment section of a blog.

    You are a faceless poster in a comment section of a blog.

    For someone who holds so much disdain for so petty and unsophisticated a forum as a blog comment section (*gasps, adjusts monocle*), you sure spend a lot of time reading and posting in one…

    Well, not reading, obviously. You clearly haven’t learned anything.

  180. Beatrice, anormalement indécente says

    BTW, I called first on Cupcake being a christian, I demand cookies.

    Khm, #123.
    Only a suspicion, not an outright claim, so I’ll satisfy myself with that extra buttery popcorn from carlie (thanks!).

  181. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    Caine’s derhogatory use of the word cupcake was meant to get a rise out me yet I’m the one that crawled out from under a rock….

    I am actually laughing out loud. Cute lil trollikins. Cry more about how Caine is super mean to dishonest, unoriginal trolls who think pretending to be stupid Christian apologists is the laff riot of the century. What a sad, boring, predictable little shit.

  182. says

    140:8 Grant not, O LORD, the desires of the wicked: further not his wicked device; lest they exalt themselves. Selah.
    140:9 As for the head of those that compass me about, let the mischief of their own lips cover them.
    140:10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

    “…and the lamentations of the women!”

  183. says

    Caine’s derhogatory use of the word cupcake was meant to get a rise out me yet I’m the one that crawled out from under a rock….

    I think philisyssis meant this to be two words, the first of which is “der.”

  184. 'Tis Himself says

    Damn, I missed another troll. But maybe it’ll come back for more whining and sneering at us.

    So, Phil, you unsticking your reflounce?

  185. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Carlie I have plenty of popcorn from up near comment 100.

    I use non-dairy margarine though I do give it a light sprinkle of garlic – try some!

  186. carlie says

    I think philisyssis meant this to be two words, the first of which is “der.”

    Start making some sense, or you shall be thrown into der hoggletory!

  187. says

    CC:

    Cry more about how Caine is super mean

    Hey, it’s working for Phil, let’s them out of having to pay attention to Carlie, Beatrice, Feralboy*, Wowbagger**, Nutmeg, you and a host of others. Not that this is winning the dishonest little dimwit any points.

    *Spellchecker suggestion: Ferryboat

    **Spellchecker suggestions: Carpetbagger, Waggery, Swaggerer.

  188. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Tis himself –

    I don’t think Phil knows what a flounce is, frankly, though ze likes to think ze knows everything…

  189. Wowbagger, Madman of Insleyfarne says

    **Spellchecker suggestions: Carpetbagger, Waggery, Swaggerer.

    Well, I could arguably qualify for the first, seeing as I did move from a northern state to a southern one – though there wasn’t any post-war reconstruction to profit from by doing so.

  190. kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith says

    Well it’s been fun fucking with you guys. LOL at Caine for getting his/her panties in a knot. You should probably go do some needle work now to calm yourself down.

    You should warn people before projecting that hard.

    Some of us are photosensitive.

    You care too much about what is said in the comment section of a blog. I suggest you call some people up and get out tonight.

    Oh, the witty comeback from a troll commenting on a blog about how those who comment on blogs have no life. And without irony.

    So far you’ve behaved a lot like a xian troll.

    If you aren’t one, congrats, you’re doing a very good impression of one.

  191. 'Tis Himself says

    It appears that phil has decided to go elsewhere, probably to impress the peasants with its knowledge of something or other.

  192. Akira MacKenzie says

    … it’s just some of the commentors here know as much about religion creationists do about evolution, and their ignorance shows in the way they argue

    You despicable, lying, shit-stain. Has it ever run that through that microscopic pustule that you laughingly refer to as a “brain” that a significant portion of us were Christian? I certainly was.

    I believed in a god, an afterlife, and the “miracles” that surrounded the faith I was baptized into. I dutifully went to Mass on weekends and “holy days of obligation,” took communion, went to confession, attended CCD, and believed exactly what a good Catholic boy was supposed to believe. I believed that abortion was murder and that all birth control was immoral. I believed that homosexuality was an “abomination” and it should be punishable by law. In my high school health class, I was sent to the principal’s office for calling a class mate a “slut” during a debate on the morality of pre-marital sex and at the time I would have insisted that she was in the wrong because I was on God’s side. I was taught all of these things by other Christians both Catholic and Protestant. I was told that they were exactly what God (i.e. Father, Son, Holy Spirit) wanted us to say, think, and do as a prerequisite to our faith. You were not a “real Christian” if you didn’t believe these things.

    Therefore, don’t you fucking tell me that I or other ex-theists don’t know what we are talking about when we bring up religion. I knew it, I lived it, and I’m still recovering from it.

    Face it sewage-breath, the only time when you’re pile of ancient delusions “isn’t Christian” is when one of the flock makes the rest of you look stupid and/or evil. As other’s have pointed out, you cherry pick the “nice” (albeit entirely unoriginal) portions of the Bible to vindicate the Christian Cancer, but ignore the illogical, hateful, and superstitious remainder.

    Well, I have news for you, cum-cake…

    It doesn’t matter if you are Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Orthodox, or Coptic. ‘t doesn’t matter what passages you pull out of your rancid holy book. It doesn’t matter if you believe that JEEZ-us was wholly god or wholly man. It doesn’t matter if you accept transubstantiation, pre or post-tribulationism, gnosticism, or another other moronic minutia the the various demotions quibble over. It doesn’t matter if you think the Messiah was born of a virgin or stepped off the gangplank of a flying saucer. It doesn’t matter if you think that JEEZ-us was a proto-Marxist who wanted to feed the hungry and ban handguns or a right-wing crusader who wanted to pillory LGBTs and nuke Iran. The only thing that matters is this:

    As long as your religion includes a 1st century itinerant rabbi named “JESUS CHRIST as your founder/teacher/leader/central figurehead, YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN!

    Deal with it, then kindly go fuck yourself!

  193. says

    ‘Tis:

    It appears that phil has decided to go elsewhere, probably to impress the peasants with its knowledge of something or other.

    Oh, they might come back. They often do.

  194. carlie says

    Oh, they might come back. They often do.

    And usually showing no signs of having read any of the comments directed to them, sadly.

    Darned right, Akira. Know why I took evolution as a sophomore in college? Because I wanted to know what they were teaching so I could better argue against it. Yeah. I don’t want to hear about how we don’t understand the religious viewpoint.

  195. says

    Carlie:

    Yeah. I don’t want to hear about how we don’t understand the religious viewpoint.

    Neither do I, yet that’s assumption, every. single. time. Dano did this for the nth time in the got to stand up to the experts thread. No, no, you couldn’t possibly know what the bible says. No, no, you couldn’t possibly know what it’s like to be a moderate christian/evangelical/catholic/calvinist/whatthefuckeverist.

    I’m honestly sick of that. My years at Calvary Chapel, living at Mansion Messiah? I believed. I wanted it to be true, so very badly. I lived it, I studied and studied and studied. So yeah, I don’t appreciate the assumption we don’t have a clue.

  196. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Pharyngula Labs has been working on a TruXianTron™ for years, in order to determine the real from the pseudo Xians. Unfortunately, we have to set the parameters so wide, due to the 30,000+ varieties of Xians, that if the person claims to be an Xian, the TruXianTron™ says they are one. Only those who renounce Xianity, like GnuAtheists, are rejected.

  197. carlie says

    So yeah, I don’t appreciate the assumption we don’t have a clue.

    Every time I hear that I want to smack them upside the head metaphorically with my literal 1987 faux-leather name-embossed well-thumbed and bookmarked NIV Thompson Chain Reference Bible.

  198. John Morales says

    [meta]

    So, I’ve just read this thread.

    <snicker>

    (Typical — nothing left to chew)

  199. echidna says

    I would suggest that not only are a significant proportion of us ex-Christian, but also that a significant proportion of us cared deeply about our Christianity. It is the betrayal of trust that turns those of us who believed into Gnus, rather than accommodationists. But of course, we don’t lose our knowledge in the process of becoming atheists, only our faith.

  200. says

    Neither do I, yet that’s assumption, every. single. time. Dano did this for the nth time in the got to stand up to the experts thread. No, no, you couldn’t possibly know what the bible says. No, no, you couldn’t possibly know what it’s like to be a moderate christian/evangelical/catholic/calvinist/whatthefuckeverist.

    He didn’t have to know the bible though because he’s not a bible scholar…to refute it though you have to know it inside and out.

    Phill, affinity trolls are not appreciated

  201. Wowbagger, Madman of Insleyfarne says

    As far as I’m concerned, one of the best arguments against Christianity is the sheer number of (often wildly) different interpretations – and that’s just the extant ones; when you factor in those wiped out by competing faiths (including the gnostic version, which – to me at least – makes a heck of a lot more sense than ‘traditional’ Christianity) it becomes ridiculous.

    What kind of god is so incompetent as to make its message so ambiguous?

  202. carlie says

    But of course, we don’t lose our knowledge in the process of becoming atheists, only our faith.

    Oh no, we turn into typical ignorant atheists who know nothing about Christianity. I don’t remember anything about being a Christian. I don’t remember all of those Bible verses I memorized, or the convoluted way they were strung together across books and time periods in tracts like the “Romans Road” and the “if you died right now, what would you say to God to prove you should get into Heaven?” ones. I don’t remember the feeling of relief and wonder washing over me when I prayed for salvation. I don’t remember the nervousness that made me want to throw up when I felt I had to go up in front of the congregation and admit that my first baptism had been when I was too young to understand, but I did now and wanted to be rebaptized. I don’t remember the feeling of community and acceptance as I rose dripping out of the water at the front of the church. I don’t remember being taught that homosexuality was wrong and that we had to be abstinent until marriage. I don’t remember VBS or summer youth camp or going from house to house in rural townships asking if anyone was interested in a church being built in their town, sometimes at the end of a shotgun because what the hell was I doing at their house in the middle of the day. I don’t remember regularly interrupting people having their relaxed Saturday morning breakfast in their nightclothes by showing up at their door and asking them why they hadn’t been to church lately and we missed them. I don’t remember spending weekends in college singing glurgy Christian pop rock songs with a group of people wearing matching clothes in tiny churches. I don’t remember teaching Bible studies to college groups and children’s groups, and poring over various Bible study materials to find just the right ones with just the right message. I don’t remember nervously, raggedly catching for breath as I tried to tell a good friend that she was going to hell if she didn’t know God, not because I wanted to tell her but because I had been taught that I had to. I don’t remember being guilted into every decision I ever made about my life because it had to be in accordance with what God wanted. I don’t remember feeling unsure and afraid and upset the more I realized each little chunk of what I believed was simply untrue based on the facts. I certainly don’t remember how easily and quickly an entire group of people dropped me as if I were dead the minute I stopped attending their church. Nope, becoming an atheist made me forget everything about being a Christian. Gotta have people like phil explain what it’s really about to me now.

  203. 'Tis Himself says

    But if we really knew Jebus and really knew the Bible then we’d be fundamentalist, evangelical, pentacostal Christians of the most bigoted and persecuting type. Just ask phil or Dano or any of the many Christians who come to show us the way.

  204. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Every time I hear that I want to smack them upside the head metaphorically with my literal 1987 faux-leather name-embossed well-thumbed and bookmarked NIV Thompson Chain Reference Bible.

    Why not the official Pullet Patrol™ Clue-by-four? With taser like electrodes to jump the start the thinking in any slightly ajar minds. Works for all but the most hardened minds, like liberturds and popes. 5 e-ducats with a purchase of any grog or swill.

  205. says

    Carlie:

    I don’t remember the feeling of community and acceptance as I rose dripping out of the water at the front of the church.

    Mmmm, just as I don’t remember, all these decades later, the feeling of being reborn, of community and acceptance being baptized in the ocean at Corona del Mar. Nope, don’t remember that at all.

  206. carlie says

    Sorry John, I got a little carried away there.

    ‘Tis – one holdover from my upbringing is that I still cling to the idea that only the most fundamentalist, evangelical Christians of the most bigoted type are the true Christians, because at least they are following most of the Bible rather than just the happy bits. I’m still working on eradicating that concept.

  207. carlie says

    Caine – ooo, being baptized in a natural body of water gets you extra piety points, and making it an ocean I think gives you a Badge of Authenticity™ on top of that! Jealous. I had to stand on an upside-down plastic milk crate in a tub between the organ and the piano.

  208. echidna says

    Sorry John, I got a little carried away there.

    Carlie, I was pleased that you elaborated perfectly what I had meant in my one-liner.

  209. says

    Carlie:

    Caine – ooo, being baptized in a natural body of water gets you extra piety points, and making it an ocean I think gives you a Badge of Authenticity™ on top of that!

    Wow, I had no idea! It was beautiful, we were all in a cove, surrounded by high cliffs, right before sunset. After the baptisms, there was a huge fellowship around a fire, with food and fun, went on until midnight.

    It’s hard to give all that up.

  210. says

    Well, personally, I don’t have a clue. About what it’s like to be a Xian, I mean, I may have been vaguely deist at one point, as well as a half-hearted pagan, but never Xian. (I owe my parents bigtime just for that.) But I’m cool with it. Puts the onus on Xians to explain why I should want to have a clue about Xianity. So far they’ve all failed horribly at persuading me why I should give a fuck about what their musty old tome says. All the Bible learning I’ve done has been on my own, out of curiosity or in response to some controversy, like when I wanted to figure out what the bible says about gay people.

    But here’s the thing: if I hear about an atheist doing terrible awful things, my first impulse is not to deny that that person is an atheist. Instead, it’s like, “Well, fuck. An atheist is doing awful things. That sucks.” I have to own the fact that there are some people who identify as atheists who are hateful little pukes, and/or mass murderers like Stalin (though if you think you are a god, does that still count as atheism? anyway). Their lack of morality doesn’t make them less atheist. Just makes them immoral.

    But I don’t really care because nobody has ever claimed that being an atheist makes you a better person. Whereas with Christianity, the claim is that by becoming a Christian, you get this moral guidebook and you live a better life. Therefore Xians are heavily invested in denying that people who to terrible things, even if they specifically claim they are doing it in the name of Christ, are not True Christians.

    It’s pretty easy to see from prison stats that Xians are just as likely as anybody else to go to jail for committing a crime. You see Xians trying to justify this or that type of bigotry, from slavery to homophobia, using their scripture, throughout history. What the fuck do I know? I don’t care to read the Wholly Babble, much less try to parse which verses are meant literally and which are metaphorical and which are true but only in the context of the Bronze Age semi-nomadic primitive culture that gave rise to the religion. That’s for believers to do. Realistically speaking, with thousands upon thousands of Xian cults proliferating, it is completely impossible to say which ones are “real” and which are not. Each one of them can point to this or that piece of scripture, because that’s the way the Babble is written. As someone else observed, there’s something there for everyone.

    In the meantime, I do Christians the same courtesy I do fellow atheists: if they say they are a Christian, then that’s what they are. I think that’s fairly basic level of respect, to not contradict the labels people choose for themselves without good reason.

    In Phil’s case, s/he has given a pretty large body of evidence for why s/he might be lying about not being Christian. The real kicker was the statement that s/he was just fucking with us. Okay, if you’re really just fucking with people then why should we believe any of what came before? And vehemently defending Christianity isn’t something that atheists normally do. But hey. You might be an atheist who still has an irrational attachment to maintaining your positive image of the belief system you sunk years of your life into. Either way, you’re still wronger than broccoli on pizza.

  211. says

    Ah, shoot. That’ll teach me to skip preview!

    Well, personally, I don’t have a clue. About what it’s like to be a Xian, I mean, I may have been vaguely deist at one point, as well as a half-hearted pagan, but never Xian. (I owe my parents bigtime just for that.) But I’m cool with it. Puts the onus on Xians to explain why I should want to have a clue about Xianity. So far they’ve all failed horribly at persuading me why I should give a fuck about what their musty old tome says. All the Bible learning I’ve done has been on my own, out of curiosity or in response to some controversy, like when I wanted to figure out what the bible says about gay people.

    But here’s the thing: if I hear about an atheist doing terrible awful things, my first impulse is not to deny that that person is an atheist. Instead, it’s like, “Well, fuck. An atheist is doing awful things. That sucks.” I have to own the fact that there are some people who identify as atheists who are hateful little pukes, and/or mass murderers like Stalin (though if you think you are a god, does that still count as atheism? anyway). Their lack of morality doesn’t make them less atheist. Just makes them immoral.

    But I don’t really care because nobody has ever claimed that being an atheist makes you a better person. Whereas with Christianity, the claim is that by becoming a Christian, you get this moral guidebook and you live a better life. Therefore Xians are heavily invested in denying that people who to terrible things, even if they specifically claim they are doing it in the name of Christ, are not True Christians.

    It’s pretty easy to see from prison stats that Xians are just as likely as anybody else to go to jail for committing a crime. (Actually atheists are underrepresented in prison but I think that’s a correlation to education, not a reflection on the belief system itself.) You see Xians trying to justify this or that type of bigotry, from slavery to homophobia, using their scripture, throughout history. What the fuck do I know? I don’t care to read the Wholly Babble, much less try to parse which verses are meant literally and which are metaphorical and which are true but only in the context of the Bronze Age semi-nomadic primitive culture that gave rise to the religion. That’s for believers to do. Realistically speaking, with thousands upon thousands of Xian cults proliferating, it is completely impossible to say which ones are “real” and which are not. Each one of them can point to this or that piece of scripture, because that’s the way the Babble is written. As someone else observed, there’s something there for everyone.

    In the meantime, I do Christians the same courtesy I do fellow atheists: if they say they are a Christian, then that’s what they are. I think that’s fairly basic level of respect, to not contradict the labels people choose for themselves without good reason.

    In Phil’s case, s/he has given a pretty large body of evidence for why s/he might be lying about not being Christian. The real kicker was the statement that s/he was just fucking with us. Okay, if you’re really just fucking with people then why should we believe any of what came before? And vehemently defending Christianity isn’t something that atheists normally do. But hey. You might be an atheist who still has an irrational attachment to maintaining your positive image of the belief system you sunk years of your life into. Either way, you’re still wronger than broccoli on pizza.

  212. Nutmeg says

    I have to admit, I’ve forgotten a lot of what I learned when I was a Christian. That’s probably because I’m now so mortified by what I believed that I try not to think about the specifics. And I’m in a field where at least 80% of people are atheist/agnostic, so I pretend that I’ve always been a good little atheist.

    I was kind of shocked when carlie mentioned the Romans Road and I realized that I no longer remembered the exact verses for that. I don’t really need that knowledge any more – I only argue with Christians on the internet these days.

    But the experiences are more vivid in my mind. All those nights at Bible camp, as a camper and a counselor. Sitting on the beach doing daily devotions. Morning and evening prayer meetings. Teaching my campers about basic Christian doctrine. The 12 girls who accepted Christ in my cabin the first summer I was a counselor. And somehow people think I never truly believed?

  213. says

    Sally,
    We’re in the same boat– I wasn’t raised in any faith*, either. And I have yet to see any compelling argument from a Christian why I should follow their god-man.

    I’ve gotten threats (“You’ll burn in hell!”) and pity (“I’ll pray for your soul!”), but that’s about it. They don’t have an argument, just empty promises. So sad.

    *My Mom tried Unitarianism when I was 10 years old or so, but that only lasted about 6 months.

  214. Ichthyic says

    from the original email:

    you hung up on us and were rude to our leader.

    Right Wing Authoritarianism FTW!

  215. Ichthyic says

    I pretend that I’ve always been a good little atheist.

    you feel the need to do that?

    you feel you would suffer persecution if you told your workmates you were religious at one time?

    wow.

    Is this in the US?

  216. mikee says

    So has syphilis been dispatched already? You folk are penicillin for stupid ideas..
    Carlie, “you’re not a troll, honey, you’re our treadmill” is an absolutely brilliant and spot on response.

  217. Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM says

    you feel you would suffer persecution if you told your workmates you were religious at one time?

    I’m not entirely sure, but I feel like this might be motivated more by embarrassment than by fear of persecution. That’s a hunch.

  218. eight8bit8bus says

    Huh, delurking because this particular topic raised my rage levels to VERY far above eyeballs. I just fucking love how this targets women specifically, and breasts specifically. This could not be any stronger of a statement about their true intentions, and their desire to punish disobedient women specifically. I mean, let’s not target soldiers (because everyone knows women can’t REALLY be soldiers in this worldview, no matter their actual role in the military…). Nope, gotta be the ladies, and their evil, heathen, unsoldierly breasts that are only used to tempt men!

    I was born with a serious milk allergy. I’m alive today thanks to modern medicine and soy formula. There is an awesome picture of my older brother’s stuffed animal propping up the bottle for three month old me (a fat and happy little soy drinking baby). I was also the six year old who was kicked out of bible school for asking why god killed EVERYONE during the supposed flood. These people would probably think my allergy and my parent’s struggle to figure out what was wrong and keep me alive was some kind of evidence that their god wants atheists and their kids dead (my parents are atheist but felt we should be exposed to church for cultural reasons).

    Well, fuck them. Science kept me alive, and science saved my aunt and grandmother from dying of breast cancer. To emphasize – FUCK THEM. My cousins have a mother today thanks to science, my grandma lived to see all her grandkids thanks to science. What have they ever done for other people? Nothing on that level, of that I’m completleyl sure. They only want to cause pain and hate. So fuck them. They can only bring ineffective words of hate and destruction to the world. So here I am, alive and about to become an engineer in the hopes of giving those alive and not yet alive a better life. Their hate pales in comparison to what the rest of us can do to make sure their vile wishes never come true. Love all of you pharyngulites, please keep on fighting this disgusting hate, I know I will.

  219. Nutmeg says

    you feel you would suffer persecution if you told your workmates you were religious at one time?

    Oh, no! I’m just embarrassed. Especially since I was the young-earth-creationist fundamentalist variety of Christian, and now I’m a biology grad student, with an evolutionary biology focus.

    People in my department do tend to mock Christians without stopping to think about whether anyone in the room might actually believe. My classmates who are believers report that there are some awkward moments, but nothing worse than that. (This is in Canada.)

    My close friends among the grad students know that I used to be a serious Christian, but I haven’t told any of them I was a creationist. That’s my dirty little secret, and it’s staying that way.

  220. says

    Philisyssis, how do we know that your version of christianity is the “right one”? Seems to me these “not quite christians” are living in the bible belt, have been christians all their lives and go to church every Sunday.

    and they say that prayer has a physical effect. Perfectly in line with the teachings of the bible. Smiting your enemies is hardly a surprise find in the average holy book.

    Sorry, but I doubt you think of yourself as anywhere near as christian as these people. You are also not as well read on the bible as others.

    I think YOU are the no-true scotsman.

  221. rickschauer says

    Caine, Fleur du mal

    I don’t think Philisyssis understands yet that the effect xtians have on you is similar to viagra to one with ED.

  222. Anri says

    Is it just me, or did philisyssis’s flounce (and re-flounce and re-re-flounce) boil down to:

    “Strong reactions to hate? Meh, who cares… they don’t hate me, (or, at least, they haven’t gotten around to telling me they hate me), after all, so I can’t be bothered. It’s almost like you actually care about people or something. So uncool.”

    …or am I off base here?

    Speaking for myself, I have never noticed any functional difference between “too cool to care about (X)”, and “too dumb to care about (X)”.

  223. rr says

    philisyssis:

    What I said about myself was true, I was a christian most of my life and in the last few years I’ve left it.

    Looks like Christianity did its damage, though. It’s designed to take away your humanity and self-respect, but you can get them back.

  224. coffeehound says

    and yes, the part about beating slaves is certainly disturbing and shows a subjective morality, that’s one of my problems with christianity. That still has no bearing on the conversation at hand though

    This is what caught my eye in all of Phil’s drivel.This is NOT a red herring
    This is actually precisely what makes her entire argument pointless.
    She’s admitted on two posts that the morality is entirely subjective.
    Which is a tacit admission that it’s impossible to define what’s moral to a christian(that is, what a ‘christian act’ means)
    Yet she seems to be able to judge what is and isn’t a christian act.
    Even though others have a biblical justification for their actions.
    She can argue whether their interpretation of the bible is correct(good luck by the way, since she’s admitted to the contradictory nature of the bible) but not whether the act is christian.
    What else isn’t a christian act?
    The Crusades? The slaughter following the Reformation?
    Anything that makes you uncomfortable with the selective use of the scriptures you chose to follow?
    And what makes her determination of what christianity entails a more legitimate collection of beliefs than Reverends Graham, Hagee,Warren or the Westboro Church for that matter?
    Oh, and speaking of herrings and strawmen, that bullshit about “using this example to paint all religionists with the same brush”( I paraphrase)…I could be wrong, but I didn’t actually see that anywhere on any post.
    For someone asking for logical consistency, well….

  225. says

    coffeehound:

    (good luck by the way, since she’s admitted to the contradictory nature of the bible)

    Actually, xe didn’t. Phil seemed to conclude that lovey-dovey Jesus verses canceled out I’ll kill ‘em Jesus verses.

  226. kemist, Dark Lord of the Sith says

    People in my department do tend to mock Christians without stopping to think about whether anyone in the room might actually believe. My classmates who are believers report that there are some awkward moments, but nothing worse than that. (This is in Canada.)

    Hey, did that once, calling religion bullshit when one very nice guy admitted that he was a practicing evangelical xian.

    I was the one who was a bit embarrassed – this is quebec, and if the person in front of you is not obviously an immigrant you tend to assume he/she is an ex- or a cultural cat-o-lick.