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Nov 26 2011

One of us?

At last, Obama comes out of the closet and openly admits that he’s joining the New Atheists.

Unreal that Obama doesn’t mention God in Thanksgiving message. Militant atheist. To whom does he think we are giving thanks?

Oh, wait. That’s wacky conservative columnist Ben Shapiro, and all Obama did was not mention any gods in his Thanksgiving speech. Stand down, everyone, it’s just an idiot setting the bar so ridiculously low that when your Grandma talks about roller derby, she automatically turns into an atheist no matter what her beliefs.

You can find out how a real atheist deals with that gratitude to an imaginary sky tyrant thing by listening to Brother Sam Singleton.

92 comments

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  1. 1
    JHGRedekop

    Apparently Gingrich, Romney, and Santorum also neglected to mention any deities in their Thanksgiving messages — I guess they are militant atheists too.

    Somehow, though, I don’t think the real atheists really want them…

  2. 2
    you_monster

    Kinda demeans the “militant” aspect of militant atheism.

  3. 3
    rad_pumpkin

    I think the formatting is a bit off.

    Anyway, I don’t live in the US right now, so I am (thankfully) free of all that Thanksgiving malarkey. That said, why should jeebus be in Thanksgiving as well. It’s not like eating turkey and other awful (seriously, what sick individual came up with stuffing?!) side dishes with as large of a family crowd as possible, followed by that pumpkin pie stuff that’s unheard off here in Europe, and watching football. Yep, everything about this just screams jeebus.

  4. 4
    Glen Davidson

    Meanwhile, God said nothing, as has always been his wont.

    Or did he have these others speak for him? If so, I’d like some documentation of said request.

    Glen Davidson

  5. 5
    Brett McCoy

    Meanwhile, thousands prayed to God and still ended up going hungry Nov 24th.

  6. 6
    DLC

    Sometimes I almost think Obama is one of us, and then I remember his birth certificate is a forgery and that he’s really a secret Muslim man! (cue Johnny Rivers)

  7. 7
    SallyStrange

    He’s a Kenyan Muslim! No! He’s a socialist liberation theology Christian like Rev. Wright! No! He’s a militant atheist!

    What next? Obama is a Raellian because he won’t ban stem cell research?

    Also, yeah, looks like the html is fucked up.

  8. 8
    Cosmic Snark

    FSM forbid we should get through a holiday without the invocation of the Christer Gawd. Thanksgiving is one of the very few holidays I enjoy, and already this year I had a fundie babbler get angry with me and tell me that I should have worked on Thanksgiving, since it is a “Christian holiday”. Fuckers. They can have Groundhog Day. Let them rejoice at the annual resurrection of Punxatawney Phil. But keep your goddamned filthy Christer hands off my cranberry sauce!

  9. 9
    LykeX

    The standards for what it takes to be a militant atheist are really slipping.

  10. 10
    PZ Myers

    Not really. Back in the day, all we had to do was throw a cracker in the trash.

  11. 11
    Arkady

    rad_pumpkin, stuffing done properly is a wondrous thing, adding subtle flavours to the meat. However, if it’s not cooked stuffed inside a bird/joint then it’s strange-weird-dry-thing-that-sticks-to-roof-of-mouth, not stuffing. I remember the first time I experienced ‘Paxo’ stuffing balls when visiting friends as a child. Thank goodness I was a polite child…

    Serves an important purpose of stopping the bird from drying out during cooking, all you have to do is factor in the increased weight into the cooking time (I’ve met so many people paranoid about undercooking poultry to the point where roasts end up rather sad dry affairs). My mum’s traditional family recipe is lemon and walnut, with torn-up breadcrumbs, caremelised onion, lemon juice, chopped walnuts and mixed herbs. Shoved into the bird’s (chicken or turkey) arse until the poor thing doubles in size ;-)

    I’ve always wondered what USaians eat on Christmas though, since you do turkey for Thanksgiving. Xmas would be weird without turkey, mince pies and xmas pudding…

  12. 12
    Dhorvath, OM

    Arkady, That sounds like a foul holiday season to me. All I really want though is some pudding. And trifle. And pie. And shortbread. And candy. Err, can I just skip dinner?

  13. 13
    darkstar

    I thought they were originally thanking the Wampanoag?

  14. 14
    Alyson Miers

    Pretty much anything Obama does is anti-Christian and un-American to this bunch. If he’d instead spent half the video groveling to the Magic Skydaddy, they’d accuse him of trying to cover up his being a Super Secret Muslim and they’d demand to know, “But what about the troops?!”

  15. 15
    Human Ape

    I watched the whole thing on YouTube. President Obama didn’t even bother with his usual godblessamerica at the end of his speech. He has finally learned how to respect our constitution, and perhaps he has decided to stop sucking up to the Christian Taliban who would never vote for him no matter what he says.

  16. 16
    Zeno

    As a connaisseur of matters religious (esp. Catholic), I posted this morning a thoughtful consideration of two new church buildings that I visited earlier this year. Had I known that Obama is a hardcore atheist, I would have realized how impolite it was to park my bumper-stickered car in the church parking lot. Oh, no! (Yes, Obama has often disappointed me, but I reinforced the car with “No on 8″ and “Boxer for Senate” stickers, making it the only such car anywhere near the church.)

  17. 17
    Aging Goth Mom

    @Sally Strange: hang on, I thought he was a militant atheist Muslim!

    (Reminds me of the scene in Life of Brian where they can’t figure out if they are the People’s Front of Judea, the Judean People’s Front, or the Popular Front)

  18. 18
    Sili

    I just learned from the Mormon Melissa Harris-Parry on TRMS that the silly pardoning the turkey shtick harkens all the way back to George Bush Sr.

    You truly are a country of ancient traditions.

  19. 19
    Zeno

    If Palin were president the turkeys would be bloodily executed, just as God intended! (Remember the video?)

  20. 20
    'Tis Himself

    Obama is accused of being an atheist and/or a Muslim by the same folks who complained about Rev. Jeremiah Wright being Obama’s pastor. Consistence is not a conservative trait.

  21. 21
    Sili

    If Palin were president the turkeys would be bloodily executed, just as God intended!

    Actually one of the most admirable things about Palin, that.

    Far too many people have a ridiculous relationship to their food and the way it’s made. I wouldn’t mind if it was required for videos like that to be shown above the freezers in supermarkets.

  22. 22
    Gregory Greenwood

    I can just imagine the crisis meeting going on at the White House right now – how to spin this so that the country doesn’t go into meltdown over the possibility that the President has been infected with that most insidious parasite, that most terrible contagion, that most foul plague… *cue dramatic music* Atheist cooties!.

    Contingency planning probably includes proper protocols for when the lion lies down with the lamb, advisories to look out for four heavily armoured types riding horses, and the outlawing of the number 6…

  23. 23
    Craigore

    @18
    to be fair, as a country we are hardly ancient. i mean how old do you think superbowl sunday is? and yet it’s treated like the most sanctimonious event of the year in some households. go figure.

  24. 24
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Stuffing as a foul, dried out thing cooked in the bird? No. Seriously, no. If it’s not delicious, it isn’t done right. Trust me. You’ve only ever had badly prepared stuffing if this is your experience. Mine is so good you’ll weep with happiness.

  25. 25
    Craigore

    @24
    Agreed, whole heartedly. A nice apple based stuffing is my absolute favorite. If it tastes like crap, there is no way it was done right.

  26. 26
    Alverant

    So a militant Muslim commit suicide bombings. Militant Christians try to turn non-Christians into second class citizens. Militant Atheists … don’t give lip service to the Christian god. Do I have that right?

  27. 27
    Alverant

    @Sili #21
    If everyone saw how their food was made from start to finish, we’d probably have more vegetarians and drive a bunch of meat-based companies out of business.

  28. 28
    Gary Hill

    What in Christ’s name is Thanksgiving….?

  29. 29
    Zinc Avenger

    Ben Shapiro is an atheist while he sleeps!

  30. 30
    you_monster

    Ben Shapiro is a *militant* atheist while he sleeps!

    FFY

  31. 31
    Hatchetfish

    @24 & 25: What’s this? Is this a “No true stuffing” fallacy I see before me?

    In seriousness though, agreed.

  32. 32
    Zeno

    Actually one of the most admirable things about Palin, that.

    Well, maybe — if she had been personally beheading the turkey that would provide her family’s holiday meal. What was really on display, however, was her utter cluelessness.

  33. 33
    crowepps

    The Official Proclamation had plenty of God in it, God and George Washington, Lincoln and the Divine, “As we gather … we give thanks to each other and to God for…”, Year of Our Lord.

    These guys are just never satisfied, are they?

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/11/16/presidential-proclamation-thanksgiving-day-2011

  34. 34
    peterh

    I can be honestly thankful without any need to direct those thanks to someone else’s preconceived target.

  35. 35
    Monado

    I thought the turkey was supposed to be pardoning you?

  36. 36
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    Josh, OSG:

    Mine is so good you’ll weep with happiness.

    I’ll bet you say that to all the boys!

  37. 37
    Rey Fox

    They make me feel positively warm and fuzzy whenever they fantasize.

  38. 38
    Georgia Sam

    To whom do we give thanks? I can only speak for myself, but I am thankful to all the PEOPLE who make my life better: my wonderful wife, children, grandchidren, family, friends, coworkers, and everybody else who has been kind to me and helped me over the years. How do I express my thanks? Certainly not by talking to an imaginary spirit being. That’s a waste of time. I express my thanks by giving something back whenever I can.

  39. 39
    Holytape

    So not mentioning God makes one a militant atheist? So at any one given time, I’m assuming that about 99% of the world population isn’t actively mentioning God, and thus are militant atheist. No wonder, True Christians are so persecuted in this country……

    Patron Saint of the Buffalo Riders

  40. 40
    Randomfactor

    I believe Obama mentioned deities once more in his proclamation than the Founders did in the Constitution…unless, like the wildest of the wild-eyed idiots, you mention the date.

  41. 41
    Jack van Beverningk

    Would it have been okay with Ben Shapiro if Obama WOULD have mentioned Jesus Christ? (A person that Ben Shapiro, an orthodox, not to mention militant, Jew is certainly pretty atheistic about)?

  42. 42
    tim gueguen

    I claim dibs on the conspiracy theory that Obama is a minion of the nefarious Robot 6. Of course the kook right in the US will be upset when they find out that Gingrich, Palin, and Ralph Reed are also minions of Robot 6.

  43. 43
    grumpyoldfart

    You Americans make me laugh.

  44. 44
    you_monster

    You Americans make me laugh.

    Fuck on off grumpyoldfart. Not all Americans are asshats.

  45. 45
    Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM,

    What nationality are you, grumpyoldfart? That way, the rest of the world can toss tire cliches in your direction.

  46. 46
    Janine, Clueless And Reactionary As Ever, OM,

    And the Typo Monster claims an other victim.

  47. 47
    chigau (違う)

    Alverant

    If everyone saw how their food was made from start to finish, we’d probably have more vegetarians and drive a bunch of meat-based companies out of business.

    If everyone saw how their food was made from start to finish, they’d probably give up vegetables, too.

  48. 48
    chigau (違う)

    Janine
    Dammit, I was working on some Firestone and Goodyear quips

  49. 49
    uncle frogy

    the conservative talking heads are out there in lala land indeed, why don’t they just say the “n” word and leave it at that? That is the underling problem besides him being an unpatriotic anti-american democrat isn’t it.

    To those who are wondering what we eat on christmas instead turkey some eat turkey again some beef or pork but christmas would not be christmas for me any more without home made Tamales with some pinto beans on the side Ummm Ummm I can hardly wait

    uncle frogy

  50. 50
    cyberCMDR

    After our Thanksgiving meal, I give thanks to all the cooking shows that my wife loves to watch. Yum!…

  51. 51
    Nick Gotts

    to be fair, as a country we are hardly ancient – Craigore

    Well actually, in comparative terms, you are. There are between 191 and 204 sovereign states, and of those I reckon only 23* have been continuously sovereign since before 1776. All the older states are in Eurasia, mostly in Europe, which explains how Americans can still think of themselves as living in a young country.

    *That’s being quite generous, e.g. I’ve included Monaco, Andorra, and Vatican City.

  52. 52
    Nick Gotts

    Sorry, no, I excluded Andorra, and should by my criteria have included Austria – so it’s 24.

  53. 53
    Nick Gotts

    If everyone saw how their food was made from start to finish, they’d probably give up vegetables, too. – chigau

    I recognise you’re not being entirely serious, but what are you thinking of here?

  54. 54
    Mike de Fleuriot

    Just a nitpick, it’s not Christian Taliban, is just plain Taliban, they all are the same.

  55. 55
    Sheesh

    KG,

    I would assume Chigua is referring to the premise that most no-meat-eaters participate in the global, capitalist food market and are therefore complicit in a large amount of generally ignored suffering. (I.e., it’s a vanishingly small number of humans that survive solely on the labor of their own subsistence farming or perhaps live in communes outside the reach of governments.)

  56. 56
    Nick Gotts

    Sheesh,

    Could be. But of all foods, vegetables are probably the most likely to be locally produced, as their low value means transport costs actually enter into calculations of profit. We buy most of ours direct from a local producer.

  57. 57
    Sheesh

    KG,

    That’s great! Now all we have to do is destroy the system that permits Whole Foods to exist — a system of which nearly all Americans are a working part.

  58. 58
    Sheesh

    (It was unfair of me just to name Whole Foods. Of course I should include say, Winn Dixie, Schnucks, Publix, Wal-mart and the bulk of every other commercial seller of vegetables in the U.S. Family or commune farms are a tiny fraction of the agriculture business done each year.)

  59. 59
    'Tis Himself

    In North America most vegetables sold in the winter and early spring come from California and Mexico.

  60. 60
    NoXion

    I once worked for a couple of weeks in a slaughterhouse that processed sheep. Mainly I worked in the gut room, separating stomachs from intestines, but I also did a stint salting intestines-turned-sausage-skins in another room, which was actually worse than gut-separating because my hands got salty, damp and incredibly cold.

    None of that was enough to put me off eating meat, which is why I get annoyed with sanctimonious vegetarians/vegans who go on as if all meat eaters were simpletons, completely unaware of the provenance of their meals, who would convert to their food-based religion if only they knew how meat was made.

    The best part? As it was “work experience” I was doing at the slaughterhouse (basically a taster of working life school students in the UK get before leaving school at 16), I did it all in the expectation of no financial reward. So imagine my surprise and pleasure when, at the end of the two weeks, I met the slaughterhouse owner and he gave me some money for my trouble.

    Now one day I’d like to hunt, kill, and prepare my own meal. Unfortunately one of the downsides of living in a commuter town just outside London is a lack of any game larger than a rabbit.

    But of course, why should meat eaters have experience of hunting or slaughtering any more than a bread eater should have experience of harvesting wheat or working in a bakery?

  61. 61
    pelamun, the Linguist of Doom

    What I find funny is that in Germany, the chancellor in her Christmas message never mentions God ;)..
    But she does wish “a blessed Christmas”, where “blessed” is a code word for Christians (as using the word “God” in public is considered borderline offensive).

    KG,

    how can you include Austria? Until 1806 (or 1804?) it was part of the HRE, and then from 1938-1945 it was part of Nazi Germany.

    Based on this Wiki entry, there were only nine or so prior to the United States. But they use very stringent criteria, any period of occupation and you’re out.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_formation_date#Sortable_list

    Based on the same link, a few reflections:

    Africa

    Ethiopia: since 800 B.C.E.

    I remember Ethiopia because when studying world history it was always the white spot in Africa during the age of colonialism.
    But unfortunately it was occupied by Italy from 1936-1941, and then by the UK.

    The next one is Liberia, in 1847

    Americas

    indeed there is nothing after the US. Though you should probably take 1781 as the date.
    Haiti in 1804 is the next one.

    Asia
    Iran: 1501
    China 1368: shakes off Mongol Empire. However if we count the Qing as foreign invaders, then it would fall off the list, as then 1911 would be the most recent date.
    Japan 660 BCE, unification under Yamato. (unless you count the American occupation)
    Bhutan: 1634
    Oman: 1743
    Nepal: 1768: Nepali Unification
    Thailand: 1776: expulsion of Burmese and Thai reunification

    Europe

    the question is: how do you count the various countries occupied by Nazi Germany during the war? I’m not talking about those areas that were formally integrated into the country like Germany. Or the Napoleonic period?

    France 843, where the Kingdom of the Franks was split up
    Denmark and Sweden: probably should use the dissolution of the Kalmar Union in 1523
    Portugal 1139 (however if you count the Napoleonic times, then it bumps back to 1808)
    UK 1171
    San Marino 1243, though there are other, earlier dates
    Switzerland 1291 (officially left the HRE in 1648) (occupied by France 1798-1813)
    Spain 1478 (if you count the Napoleonic reign, then bumped to 1814, this is after all where the word “guerilla” comes from)
    Andorra 1813: doesn’t make your list sorry, because it had been annexed by Napoleon
    Monaco 1861: it had also been annexed by Napoleon
    Vatican City only became a sovereign state in 1929
    Netherlands: 1568, officially left the HRE in 1648
    Germany: is a complicated case. Between 1806 and 1871, there was no Germany, all its constituent states were sovereign. otherwise take the same 843 date as France

    Russia: 1480
    Turkey: if you see it as successor state to the Ottomans, then 1299, otherwise 1923.

  62. 62
    Stu

    OT…forgive me if everyone else here knows about this but me…

    Check out this whacko who says she can’t teach her child that Santa is real because Santa “is benevolent and has super-powers, who can do incredible things, who sees his actions while remaining unseen, who rewards good acts, and with whom (if you encourage letter-writing to Santa) the child can communicate.”

    And then she goes on to say…

    “If you’re a Christian parent, you are very likely teaching the child at the same time in his life and at the same stage in his development to believe in God–a powerful and benevolent Being who sees his actions while remaining unseen, who rewards good actions and punishes evil actions, and with whom the child can communicate by praying. In fact, you encourage him to pray to this Unseen Being.

    “To induce belief in your child in both of these teachings, you are relying on the fact that children naturally believe what their parents tell them.

    “But one is an unimportant falsehood and the other is the ultimately important Truth.”

    So…no Santa because he is an imaginary being, and teaching children about him would confuse them about the god, the TRUE imaginary being!

    I laughed out loud…

    http://www.whatswrongwiththeworld.net/2009/05/why_i_dont_teach_my_kid_that_s.html

  63. 63
    Alex, Tyrant of Skepsis

    @Sili

    I just learned from the Mormon Melissa Harris-Parry on TRMS that the silly pardoning the turkey shtick harkens all the way back to George Bush Sr.

    You truly are a country of ancient traditions.

    I learned of this practice from the West Wing, where they made the turkeys sitting in peoples offices the comic relief of an episode. Aaron Sorkin really was up to date with recent ancient traditions I must say.

    @NoXion

    This vegetarian is so proud of you. Good job! Here’s your meat cookie.

    @Sheesh

    Do we really have to switch to all locally produced food in order to minimize cruelty/injustice in food production? That does not sound feasible at all when it comes to feeding 10 billion people.

  64. 64
    Scott

    Obama an atheist? If only…

    BTW, our stuffing this year was cornbread with cheddar & fresh jalapenos.

  65. 65
    Sili

    Well, maybe — if she had been personally beheading the turkey that would provide her family’s holiday meal.

    No. That would be the fauxksy ‘naturalness’ on display in SP’s Alaska. Factory farming is how it’s done, and that’s what consumers should see. If they want their turkeys beheaded by axe, they can damn well pay for it.

  66. 66
    Sili

    Sheesh says:

    That’s great! Now all we have to do is destroy the system that permits Whole Foods to exist — a system of which nearly all Americans are a working part.

    Not a bad idea, really. The owner of WH is a raging homophobe, who poured money into Prop8 as I recall it.

  67. 67
    Sili

    Based on this Wiki entry, there were only nine or so prior to the United States. But they use very stringent criteria, any period of occupation and you’re out.

    Then doesn’t the the US only date from 1865?

  68. 68
    Sili

    None of that was enough to put me off eating meat, which is why I get annoyed with sanctimonious vegetarians/vegans who go on as if all meat eaters were simpletons, completely unaware of the provenance of their meals, who would convert to their food-based religion if only they knew how meat was made.

    I’m a vegetarian, nor have I said anything about The Truth™ putting everyone off their meat.

    But we should be fully aware of where out meat comes from, when we insist on eating it.

  69. 69
    pelamun, the Linguist of Doom

    No, since it was a Civil War…

  70. 70
    Sheesh

    [OT, I guess]

    Alex,

    I’m not trying to make Chigua’s argument my own, but I’ll give it a shot:

    Do we really have to switch to all locally produced food in order to minimize cruelty/injustice in food production? That does not sound feasible at all when it comes to feeding 10 billion people.

    No, I don’t think this is reasonable. Instead we should acknowledge that unethical treatment of humans is involved in the global food market we (including the vast majority of American vegetarians) are a part of. This seems to me to be the point Chigua was making — we get cheap corn, and cheap soy, and cheap lettuce, and cheap tomatoes, etc largely at the end of a long chain of actions that have their own moral implications. The only way you can reliably be sure that you are feeding yourself sustainably and without the coercion or mistreatment of people and animals is to grow your own food, or farm communally with other consenting adults (I guess).

    That is the goal, right, elimination of animal cruelty, injustice and human suffering? (The former being the common religious justification for vegetarianism and the latter two the basis of most rational ethics.) If we accept some degree of immorality in our food, if we are willing to permit suffering to eat, then we know what we are; we’re just haggling about the price if you catch my drift.

  71. 71
    Alex, Tyrant of Skepsis

    @Sheesh

    In principle I agree with your pragmatic perspective, but since the issue is so important I find the “big food=evil” approach too fatalistic. The price reduction from centralized large scale food production does not only come from exploitation and cruelty, but simply from hugely enhanced efficiency. It needs to be heavily regulated to be ethical, that’s for sure, but can we do without it? I don’t think so.

    Also, I don’t understand why “reduction of animal cruelty” is a “religious” justification? Not everything that can’t be measured in dollars is a “religious” value.

  72. 72
    What a Maroon, oblivious

    Portugal 1139 (however if you count the Napoleonic times, then it bumps back to 1808)

    Also, the Portuguese crown was united with Spain from 1580-1640.

  73. 73
    David Marjanović, OM

    What next? Obama is a Raellian because he won’t ban stem cell research?

    + 1

    I’ve always wondered what USaians eat on Christmas though, since you do turkey for Thanksgiving. Xmas would be weird without turkey, mince pies and xmas pudding…

    Carp on the 24th, turkey on the 26th. Various specialties like “minute steaks” (pork, with croquettes) on the 25th.

    Here’s your meat cookie.

    Ooh. Is it a real Girl Scout cookie, made from real Girl Scouts?

  74. 74
    David Marjanović, OM

    I’ve always wondered what USaians eat on Christmas though

    Uh, sorry. No soy un estadounidense. Just wanted to react to the concepts of mince pie and pudding.

    And, Sili, you meant to write you’re not a vegetarian, right?

  75. 75
    Blondin

    From the linked article:

    ABC News pointed out that three of the GOP presidential candidates – former Mass. Gov. Mitt Romney, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich and former Penn. Sen. Rick Santorum – also omitted God in the Thanksgiving statements they issued.

    Militant atheists! All of them!

  76. 76
    Nick Gotts

    Blondin@77,

    Well I’m sure the fundies will agree with you about Mitt Romney, unable as they are to distinguish from atheism either non-Christian religions – I beg their pardon, non-Judeo-Christian religions, or even other varieties of Christianity than their own. That’s how Obama can be simultaneously a Mooslim, a follower of Rev. Wright’s “black racist” version of Christianity, and a Militant Atheist.

  77. 77
    Sheesh

    [OT]
    Alex,

    I find the “big food=evil” approach too fatalistic.

    I agree with you, big food equals evil is not my view.

    The price reduction from centralized large scale food production does not only come from exploitation and cruelty, but simply from hugely enhanced efficiency.

    Absolutely, and has obvious beneficial outcomes — a lot of people get food that might otherwise starve.

    It needs to be heavily regulated to be ethical, that’s for sure, but can we do without it? I don’t think so.

    I agree, and I’m guessing that most reasonable people would!

    Also, I don’t understand why “reduction of animal cruelty” is a “religious” justification? Not everything that can’t be measured in dollars is a “religious” value.

    I’m not super educated on vegetarian philosophy, but it was my understanding that the largest bloc of vegetarians — in and around Asia — are vegetarians for religious reasons with a smaller population of American vegetarians following suit with a smaller still cadre trying to make cruelty-based ethical calculations (Peta-style arguments, slaughter-house shock-pron, etc., which to some extent are also religious, or in some forms cultish)

    My dad grew up on a farm and I’ve been around farms (so I don’t have a problem with eating “food I’ve met”), but I’m pretty thankful that I didn’t grow up farming and don’t farm now. What I do know is that farming is hard work for really shitty pay. I also know that labor in America, especially migrant labor and immigrant labor (undocumented or not) is treated like shit. So I agree especially that farm labor needs to be heavily regulated to be ethical and just and doesn’t cause a great degree of unnecessary human suffering. Lettuce doesn’t get into the trunk of your SUV without a lot of back breaking work and frankly exploitation.

  78. 78
    Sili

    And, Sili, you meant to write you’re not a vegetarian, right?

    Ooops.

  79. 79
    Sili

    pelamun says:

    No, since it was a Civil War…

    Not according to the South.

  80. 80
    pelamun, the Linguist of Doom

    Not according to the South.

    So? The question was if the entity known as the United States of America has been continuously sovereign since 1776/1781.

  81. 81
    pickle surprise

    I find it hilarious how conservatives whine about political correctness gone mad (which is code for “People are challenging my bigotry and that just won’t do!”) and yet will cry over the smallest perceived slight against Christianity. These morons only hate political correctness when they can’t use it but if OMG OBAMA DID NOT THANK GAWD!!! then they will play the offended card for all it’s worth.

  82. 82
    Nick Gotts

    KG,

    how can you include Austria? Until 1806 (or 1804?) it was part of the HRE, and then from 1938-1945 it was part of Nazi Germany. – Pelamun

    You’re right – I’d somehow forgotten the Nazi Anschluss! My criteria were claiming sovereignty and having that claim widely accepted by other sovereign states throughout the period (which would actually make the USA’s starting point a bit later than 1776, come to think of it), but allowing for temporary occupation, or losing bits of territory – even most of it. So I reckoned Austria was the “same” state as the Austro-Hungarian Empire, because its capital remained the same, it had the same root name, and was always led by German speakers. It was one of the most dubious even without the Anschluss, but similarly, I counted Turkey as the same state as the Ottoman Empire. The Civil War wouldn’t shift the USA to 1865, because few states recognised the Confederacy.

  83. 83
    Sheesh

    KG,

    But wait, wait! weren’t we “occupied” until 1783: wink wink

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuation_Day_%28New_York%29

  84. 84
    Nick Gotts

    Oh, and as you say, even if the Confederacy had succeeded in seceding, the USA would still have a continuous history as a sovereign state. If not, then the UK has only had a continuous history since 1997, when Hong Kong was handed over to the PRC. Ha! We’re the real young country!

  85. 85
    Sheesh

    (Sorry, that was US-centric. Caught myself too late! Apologies.)

  86. 86
    'Tis Himself

    KG #86

    If not, then the UK has only had a continuous history since 1997, when Hong Kong was handed over to the PRC. Ha! We’re the real young country!

    Hong Kong wasn’t part of the UK. It was leased to the UK who moved out when the lease expired.

  87. 87
    Nick Gotts

    ‘Tis Himself@88,

    Not so: only the mainland “New Territories” were leased. On 29 August 1842, the island was formally ceded in perpetuity to the United Kingdom under the Treaty of Nanking. Under international law, the UK did not have to return the island, although since all the PRC had to do to render it unviable was either cut off the water supply, or open the borders, keeping it was never considered.

  88. 88
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    I don’t have any objection to vegetarians. It’s sanctimonious vegetarians that annoy me and, if I read correctly, NoXion.

    Sheesh, no offense taken. English needs another version of “we” – there’s “me and at least one other but not you”, and also “you and me and maybe others”. I believe some languages make that distinction, perhaps Pelamun or David Marjanović would know.

  89. 89
    Alex, Tyrant of Skepsis

    I don’t have any objection to vegetarians. It’s sanctimonious vegetarians that annoy me and, if I read correctly, NoXion.

    NoXion gets to pride hirself publicly to have volunteered in a slaughterhouse, and I get to be a little sanctimonious. I think that’s a fair deal.

  90. 90
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    rad_pumpkin:

    It’s not like eating turkey and other awful (seriously, what sick individual came up with stuffing?!) side dishes…

    HERESY. Side dishes, particularly stuffing, are the entire fucking point of Thanksgiving.

    NoXion: Excellent comment. Really, how do these same veg*ns think people coped for millennia slaughtering their own food? Reminds me of the people who think that televising executions will bring a stop to them… when executions were a form of public entertainment from ancient times until the last century.

    Stu: Oh, that blog. I’ve seen the posts from her husband Lord and Master before, but not his helpmeet.

    Sili: I didn’t know John Mackey was a raging homophobe. I did know that he’s a libertarian and he’s viciously fatphobic; the store is intentionally hostile to both fat customers and fat employees. Oh, and they peddle lots o’ woo, too.

    Also, why should we care how traitors and traitor sympathizers perceive[d] the union?

  91. 91
    Nancy New, Queen of your Regulatory Nightmare

    Wild turkey, shot by my spouse.
    Wild rice (brought by my spouse from his annual mid-west hunting trip) stuffing with native pecans and dried cranberries
    Locally grown roasted sweet potato rounds with 5-spice powder
    Locally grown roasted red kubuto and butternut squash
    Homemade cranberry sauce with apple and ginger
    Apple pie (locally grown Stayman/Winesaps)

  92. 92
    GrudgeDK

    Here’s a stupid question, not being up on American traditions. Aren’t you giving thanks to the Indians, for sharing their food, and not letting you starve to death in winter?

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