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Sep 14 2011

Michele Bachmann: pseudo-scientist and anti-vaxxer

There was another Republican debate (I skipped it; there are limits to the horrors I can endure), and apparently, many people think Michele Bachmann trumped Rick Perry by jumping on his ‘liberal’ endorsement of using the HPV vaccine to prevent cancers in women. Bachmann ranted about the federal government forcing innocent little girls to get mental retardation injections, and the teabaggers loved it. They loved it almost as much as they loved Rick Perry’s record of executions.

Orac rips her apart. It’s great fun, and informative, too.

As I’ve pointed out time and time again, Gardasil is incredibly safe by any measure. Also by any measure, it’s been very heavily tested and monitored. Of course, there is no evidence at all that the HPV vaccine can cause mental retardation. I’ve also pointed out how the vast majority of the reports of adverse reactions after the HPV vaccine made to the VAERS database were almost certainly not due to Gardasil and have castigated Medscape, of all publications, for buying into anti-vaccine myths about Gardasil. Meanwhile the American Academy of Pediatrics immediately issued a press release to correct Michelle Bachmann’s false statements about Gardasil. What Bachmann is peddling is pure pseudoscience. I suppose I shouldn’t be in the least bit surprised, given how gullible she is when it comes to science in general and how much she allows ideology to trump science.

Once again, the Republicans step forward as the anti-human, anti-science, anti-health party.

(Also on Sb)

278 comments

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  1. 1
    Aquaria

    Bachmann ranted about the federal government forcing innocent little girls to get mental retardation injections, and the teabaggers loved it

    I seem to remember that the small pox injection got rid of small pox. If a mental retardation injection gets rid of mental retardation, then…

    I’m trying to see the problem here.

    Is it that Michele thinks she wouldn’t have a voting base if we were able to control mental retardation with a vaccine?

  2. 2
    ss123

    Was hoping (and kinda figured) you would post about this.

    She might be done as a candidate now (if she ever really was one).
    Candidates must be very careful treading into issues they know nothing about.

  3. 3
    Scaryduck

    Her evidence? “Somebody told me”

    *facepalm*

  4. 4
    Anthony K

    I read something of the debate:

    Bachmann (to Perry): “You used science!
    Perry: “Only to save children!”
    Bachmann: “Now they won’t want boring ol’ unscientific God!”
    Perry: “Yes, but, but, cancer! I swear, I usually hate science! I rode here in a buggy. Without wheels! It was a sled! Pulled by unicorns! I hate science as much as you do. More even!”
    Bachmann: “Oh yeah! What’s two plus two?”
    Perry (without thinking): “Three!”
    Bachmann: “Aha! That’s right! You’re some kinda math-loving nerd liberal!”

  5. 5
    qwertyuiop

    Candidates must be very careful treading into issues they know nothing about.

    Are we talking about the same America here?

  6. 6
    raymoscow

    Still, there has to be some explanation for Bachmann’s mental disabilities. Too much lead in her water, perhaps?

  7. 7
    lexaequitas

    I don’t believe her for one second — she invented the entire encounter based on other anti-vaxx fears.

    C’mon, the HPV vaccine is given at 12. You’re telling me a 12-year old girl suddenly developed mental retardation without another obvious cause like an accident and it wasn’t even a minor media story? That the anti-vaxxers wouldn’t be holding it up as their crowning case? Baloney.

    Bachmann had heard that some vaccines might cause mental retardation from knowing about the general anti-vaxx nuts. She then just fabricated this story, and then falls back on “I’m not a doctor, some woman just told me this” to defend herself.

  8. 8
    raven

    There was another Republican debate (I skipped it; there are limits to the horrors I can endure),…

    Yeah, I’ve noticed that too. Most of the GOP candidates seem to be Cthonic horrors from beyond the Formless Chaos. Death cultists worshipping a Sky Monster. AKA fundie xians.

    Michele Bachmann exhibits profound cognitive impairment. That is just obvious. I doubt there is any organic cause, it must have something to do with living in a fundie cult bubble for decades.

    It would however, be immensely entertaining if she was elected president. If the USA is going to go cuckoo and die, we might as well go out big time in style. This national end by getting nibbled to death by old white male christofascist ducks is boring.

  9. 9
    BTJ

    I love how this places Rick Perry in the awkward position of trying to use science and evidence to justify his position, when he rejects the very same methods on virtually every other issue. I would not be at all surprised to see the GOP whole-heartedly adopt the anti-vax position into their rhetoric (if not into the platform itself), because there seems to be no variety of conspiritorial nonsense that they don’t like. @ss123: Disagree! This probably actually helps Bachmann.

    For what it’s worth, I agree with Bachmann (and I hate to type that phrase) on Perry’s motivation for the HPV program. If I had to guess at a motive between the options of (a) genuine concern for the health of girls and women based upon good science and reason, or (b) a kick-back to a campaign donor, in Perry’s case, I’d go with the latter. Even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut; or, in this case, even a nut sometimes finds a sensible policy.

  10. 10
    Staceyjw

    Perry has already backed out of his support of Guardisil. He has recently said that it was a mistake he made, and shouldn’t have. He was pandering to the other religious zealots that would rather their daughters get cancer than a shot, because the shot might cause “promiscuity” (ridiculous). He is worse than Bachmann because his lunacy is slightly less blatant, and many Rethuglicans and fundies love him.

  11. 11
    Auraboy

    The real brilliance of the exchange was when Perry said ‘I raised $30 million dollars, I’m offended if you think they could buy me for $5000…’ It’s not so much that he’s ruling out being bought off by a corporation, just that he needs a bigger set of zeroes to ensure compliance…

  12. 12
    The Pint

    Orac’s piece was a good read. I’m amused by how suddenly the conservative pundits are all stunned by Bachmann’s “irrational” anti-vax statements. They should hardly be surprised – Bachmann’s unsubstantiated statements about the HPV vaccines’ effects causing mental retardation are a logical extension of her (and every other science-skeptic political figure/pundit’s) overall unsubstantiated statements about anything science-related in general. In this way, Bachmann is at least more consistent in her science denialism than her cohorts and critics on the Right, who are apparently employing vasts amounts of cognitive dissonance in order to squawk about how anti-vax statements are “loony” while evolution and global climate change skepticism is “reasonable.”

  13. 13
    addiepray

    I loved that this story was a top page headline at HuffPo.”health advocates worry politics will stigmatize vaccine.”
    Yeah, HuffPo. Wouldnt it be shocking if people started believing horror stories about vaccines? What kind of monster would publicize that kind of blatant falsehood?!?

  14. 14
    unbound

    I’m less scared by the idiot Bachmann than I am by the tea party members themselves.

    Last week they were cheering potentially innocent people put to death in Texas. As Jon Stewart pointed out, it wasn’t a bunch of hillbillies in the audience either.

    This week they were cheering the death of uninsured people, and cheering the notion that government should not be pushing life saving vaccines (I guess they want smallpox and other fun diseases back). Again, by an audience filled with apparently middle and upper income people.

  15. 15
    Adam

    I think Michele Bachmann should be made personally acquainted with some cervical cancer sufferers. Maybe an ambush while doing a TV interview.

    The sufferer should explain in excruciating detail how cancer has affected them, what their long term prognosis is, what their quality of life is like and demand to know why Bachmann is promoting a policy that would see thousands of women die each year in similar circumstances. Aside from the pain and suffering, what is the burden on the tax & insurance payers for so many people to be needlessly out of work and requiring medical treatment? I doubt it makes any economic sense either.

    It is obviously done from some pretty fuckwitted ideological grounds. I’d also like Bachmann to explain if herself, her husband or her kids were vaccinated and to roll up their arms to demonstrate they weren’t. Maybe someone will dig up pictures of her on the beach or in shorts for people to judge themselves. It might look ever so slightly hypocritical if she availed of a treatment she prefers others not to have.

  16. 16
    Lynna, OM

    Anti-science, anti-health, anti-facts in general, anti-government …. Michele Bachmann is very much on the small-government band wagon (while taking medicare money to support the cure-the-gay clinic run by herself and her husband). She thinks government is the problem, not the solution. Like most Republicans, she is ignoring a very big growth of government that has taken place since 9/11.

    It was George Bush’s Republican administration that got the ball rolling on building entire cities of anti-terrorism activity. They hid the fact that they were not just growing, but bloating government, by hiring contractors to do a lot of the work.

    The contractors paid such high wages that they stripped government agencies of their best employees, and then sold the services of those same employees back to the taxpayer at two and three times the cost.

    An attempt was made to put a stop to the drain on government employees with security clearances by requiring that a year pass before such an employee could be hired for a similar job by an outside contractor. The money pot was so big that contractors could afford to hire a former federal employee, have him or her sit around doing nothing for a year (at a salary at least twice the fed salary), and then put him or her to work in a job that required a security clearance.

    Bachmann and all Tea Partiers and Republicans back this kind of growth of government. It costs taxpayers billions. Oversight is lacking. Waste is enormous. About six of the hundreds of agencies, offices, and sub-offices do some useful work. The rest is government bloat of the Republican kind.

    Buildings with 500,000 square feet of space (five Wal-Mart Super Stores stacked five stories high) were built to house so many Homeland Security workers that the workforce is unwieldy. No one knows if they are effective, nor how much money is being bled from other government functions in order to support a security/anti-terrorism effort.

    In a recent Fresh Air episode, Dana Priest (“Top Secret America”) was interviewed. The details of this huge growth of government were detailed.

    http://www.npr.org/2011/09/06/140056904/the-top-secret-america-created-after-9-11

  17. 17
    flyonthewall

    If there was a cancer vaccine for breast, colon, liver or any other type of cancer do you think teabaggers wouldn’t be first in line to get it.
    Ignorant hypocrites all.

  18. 18
    Glen Davidson

    She’s a creationist, isn’t she?

    Seems that’s about all that we need to know how well she does in science.

    Glen Davidson

  19. 19
    tkreacher

    My favorite part of the debate was when Ron Paul was asked if a man without health insurance should be allowed to die because, “who’s going to pay for it”… and from the TeaBagger audience you hear cries of, “YES!” “YEAAA!”, “LET HIM DIE!”.

    And by favorite part I mean the part that further makes me want not just out of this country but off of this planet.

  20. 20
    pelamun

    When I saw this on the Rachel Maddow Show, I was like, why hasn’t PZ blogged about this yet. But I totally agree with “there are limits to the horrors I can endure”, so thank the FSM that people like Rachel Maddow suffer through that stuff and report on it, so we don’t have to watch it ourselves..

    Actually, even more sadly, my second reaction was, probably that kind of stuff no longer warrants a reaction from science bloggers, I mean what else would you expect from Tea party candidates…

  21. 21
    Ellie MacFarland

    You forgot ‘anti-intelligent.’

  22. 22
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    I thought it was an odd piece by Orac.

    He suggests that the idea that policies pushed by politicians are bought by corporations has traditionally been made by “the far left.” It’s somewhat surprising to hear it coming from someone like Bachmann, but the charge has been made for more than a century by more than the far left. It’s generally true, and certainly appears to have some basis in this case. In fact, at the time when there was a push to make it mandatory in many states (with legislation often written by…M*rck), it was still new and hadn’t been tested as thoroughly as most would like to see before such policies would be put in place, and it was being aggressively marketed by the company in a questionable manner. (Incidentally, the FDA in April rejected M*rck’s bid to have it approved for women 27-45.) I think I remember Orac saying a while back that he had mixed feelings about making it mandatory himself. There are serious legal and ethical questions involved in any compulsory health intervention, and especially one promoted so aggressively by a corporation that stands to rake in billions from it.

    He also claims that this latest episode shows how “prescient” Chris Mooney was in TRWoS, despite his “vilification” by “some atheists.” First, people’s issues with Mooney have nothing to do with that book, and certainly no one is saying that everything Mooney ever said on any subject is wrong; it’s an irrelevant potshot. Second, the book wasn’t about The Coming Republican War on Science, but the actual one. You didn’t need a crystal ball at the time he wrote the book to see what was going on. Really, a similar book could have been written decades earlier about different issues.

    He also continues to suggest that anti-vaccine movement is vaguely “associated with” the left while at the same time pointing out that in fact it spans the political spectrum. Much antivax rhetoric is religious, and once when Orac linked to a post at AoA claiming that pro-vax people were like creationists, the comments made clear how many in that movement are themselves creationists. And of course, much of the opposition to the HPV vaccine specifically has come from the Religious Right.

    None of this is to say that I think the vaccine is unsafe or that Bachmann isn’t an opportunist and a jackass. But none of the Republican politicians involved care at all about girls’ or women’s health or rights.

  23. 23
    Lynna, OM

    Otherwise relatively normal people in my conservative (not teabagger-conservative) community believe that Michele Bachmann has a point about vaccines. They think problems with vaccines are hidden from the public by the vaccine manufacturers.

    They also believe Rick Perry may be right about zero jobs being created by the stimulus packages. They believe it because they hear it repeated by Glenn Beck, by Rush Limbaugh, by their state legislators, by conservative bloggers, and by Fox News reporters. They don’t think that many people can be wrong. And they don’t have the time, or they don’t take the time, to go to other sources of news and analysis.

    As far as they are concerned, Democrats, especially President Obama, are either lying or deluded.

  24. 24
    anteprepro

    Which of the following is a big problem with Rick Perry?
    A. He cut the budget of firefighters by 75% in the middle of a fucking drought, and then whined to the federal government for not helping enough with the resulting fires.
    B. He executed a man based on evidence later found to be faulty, and quashed further investigation into the matter.
    C. He “joked” on two separate occasions about Texas seceding.
    D. He made a vaccine that prevents cancer in women mandatory.

    Of all of these, Bachmann goes running for D. If the debate was an exam, she would have gotten a big, fat “F”. But, it’s a Republican debate, so they grade on the biggest curve imaginable. In the Republican alternate reality, where facts take a back seat to ideology, Bachmann’s answer for the question of Perry’s Achilles Heel was an A+++. Good job, Bachmann. And shut up, Huntsman! The Republicans totally ain’t anti-science. Nosiree bob.

  25. 25
    anteprepro

    Umm, right, I can’t link for crap.

    Anyway, the American Academy of Pediatrics immediately refuted Bachmann’s idiocy in the debate. I honestly wish that something like that would happen more often: http://www.aap.org/advocacy/releases/hpv2011.pdf

  26. 26
    Markita Lynda, healthcare is a damn right.

    Brownian, OM, wins the thread as usual!

    Even more disturbing than the blatant anti-scientific and woman-hating lies is the subtext: “I’ll believe what I want to believe and you can’t make me face reality!”

    NOT what I’d want in a leader of our neighbours south of the border.

  27. 27
    Thegoodman

    Can the company that owns Gardasil (I believe it is Merck) sue Bachmann?

    If Oprah Winfrey can be sued over saying she no longer wants to eat beef (sued over a negative opinion??) how can Michelle Bachmann get away with spreading false negative rumors about a legitimate health product?

    It sounds like they have a pretty strong case against her.

  28. 28
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Ah, to be fair, Orac did say

    Now, believe it or not, there are valid reasons to criticize Perry for this decision not because Gardasil is harmful or not a good vaccine but because of the conflict of interest there appeared to be.

    though he didn’t elaborate on those reasons. (The “believe it or not” is strange.)

    He also said

    Even though there are strains of anti-vaccine belief among some of the more Libertarian elements of the conservative movement, echoing nicely with “health freedom” beliefs, it hasn’t stuck, and conservatives do not view themselves as “anti-vaccine,” unlike those “loony Jenny McCarthy types.” As a consequence, I think it actually shocked many Republicans to hear anti-vaccine views so baldly stated right in the middle of a Republican debate by one of its major candidats for president. To those of us who are aware of the principle of crank magnetism, which states that people who support one form of pseudoscience tend to be credulous enough to believe in other forms of pseudoscience, it is no surprise that Bachmann has apparently come out as being anti-vaccine. To Republicans, crank magnetism is fine about evolution and global climate change, but should that crank magnetism drift into areas that are perceived as being “liberal” pseudoscience, watch out!

    It seems to me the alleged associations aren’t the matter, but rather that their views are based on ideologies of a) corporate profit/power and b) religion. These generally overlap, but in some cases conflict, and I would say conflicts are usually decided in favor of corporate profit/power in the end.

  29. 29
    Markita Lynda, healthcare is a damn right.

    Stephanie Zvan has responded by reposting a link to this: “And then you wait.”

    I don’t know the medical reasoning, but if the state had said “ALL children will get this so they won’t be infected by a cancer-causing virus nor give it to others,” religious people might have accepted it more readily. Offering it only to girls made it easy for haters of female independence to interpret it as a “consequence-free sex” technology. Even though if you twisted their arms hard enough they might admit that dying of cancer wasn’t a fate they wanted for their daughters and that said daughters might not know the entire sexual history of their future husbands.

  30. 30
    coloradoblue

    Heh indeedy!

    … the Republicans step forward as the anti-human…

    And rapdily approaching sub-human.

  31. 31
    pinkboi

    #9 is right. Rick Perry’s motives weren’t exactly pure. Even if you agree with what he did, his reasoning was corporatist. No need to point out that rare time the stopped watch is right.

  32. 32
    Joachim

    Ahhh, so now we know what Santa is weeping about.

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/09/13/the-kitschit-burns/#comments

  33. 33
    Seeker Lancer

    Is anyone surprised this is Michele Bachmann’s stance on abortion? No? I didn’t think so.

  34. 34
    Seeker Lancer

    Wow I said abortion instead of vaccination. It’s all starting to blur together for me now. I need help.

  35. 35
    The Pint

    Wow I said abortion instead of vaccination. It’s all starting to blur together for me now. I need help.

    Meh, potayto/potahto, as far as Bachmann and her ilk is concerned, it’s all the same godless sciencey gobbledy-gook giving women more of an excuse to “slut it up,” so you’re hardly to blame for mixing them up. At this point, every time she opens her mouth, it’s an effort to actually hear what she’s saying rather than “wah wah wah wah wah” a la Peanuts adult speech.

  36. 36
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    SC, #22: Orac writes in that post that he used to be a Republican until “the party left me.” I daresay he still buys into the conservative notion that overweening corporate power in politics is something only “the far left” cares about.

    I also wonder how well acquainted he is with the culture of batshit wingnuttery in the U.S. as it’s evolved in the last few decades. Maybe back in the late ’80s or early ’90s, his stereotypes about what was relegated to the “far left” were true. But paranoia about “teh gubmint,” a wish to isolate themselves from the ebyl secular culture, and fears hopes of civilization collapsing have impelled many of them to borrow back-to-the-land and other ideas from the hippies.

    Regarding his quote about “conservatives” distinguishing themselves from “loony Jenny McCarthy types” … well, there are conservatives, and there are conservatives. The ones who are getting so much political attention now are the ones who, 20 or 30 years ago, were ignored and laughed at by the GOP power brokers.

  37. 37
    johndavidmyself

    8. raven

    It would however, be immensely entertaining if she was elected president. If the USA is going to go cuckoo and die, we might as well go out big time in style. This national end by getting nibbled to death by old white male christofascist ducks is boring.

    Indeed. Why be bored into theocratic Armageddon with Perry, when there’s an opportunity for some Oldtime American Exceptionalism psychotic hilarity to guide us into oblivion? I envision it something like the South Park ‘Kyle Kills Jesus’ episode in Japanese or a performance of methed-up circus monkeys riding saddled dogs in circles.

    In a related note, I watched the debate AND attended Michele’s rally in Sarasota a few weeks ago. Pretty sure it’s not a self-loathing issue. The rubes, hicks and yokels were jacked and there was even a little impromptu call and response going on. But the part I would have paid for came at the end as the music came up; Marcus, who had been watching from just steps away, went to Michele and they did their signature Dancing with Teh Tards. Life doesn’t get any better than that.

    Michele-One-L video

  38. 38
    mikeg

    I really wish I had to money to move. Immediately. Come on, USA!

    I cannot be the only one who feels embarrassed by our whimsical attempts at being just over mediocre. If we keep telling ourselves that we are number one, that’ll make it true. Right?

    What the fuck. My neighbors, my coworkers, my family, can’t be this stupid. They cannot possible believe that the GOP has anything to offer our civilization, right?

    asduohadsodwihaoiwshad

  39. 39
    Jenny Hatch

    Steve Burd, whose Coalition to Advance Healthcare Reform (CAHR), was the author of Obamacare and has written it into the rules and regs of the law that if a person is not fully vaccinated upon arrival at an ER, he or she must be brought up to date on said vaccines before being treated.

    It is also implied in the bill that Peek a Boo squads can show up at your door and vaccinate you and your children if they are also not up to date on Vaccines. Medical Fascism is just around the corner…

    Now, perhaps some believe these types of measures are necessary to ensure we all stay healthy. I choose to believe that darker agendas are behind these laws being put into place.

    Michele Bachmann should be awarded for having the courage to spank Rick Perry and bring this issue into the light of day.

    Many Girls have died after getting the shot – I created a blog entry yesterday that includes seven informational VIDEOS about those deaths

    http://jennyhatch.com/2011/09/13/gardasil-if-a-picture-is-worth-a-thousand-words-then-a-video-report/

    And a featured article at Blogging Mothers Magazine this month outlines my own horror story of attempting to warn innocents and stand up to those who created the HPV Vaccine:

    http://bloggingmothersmagazine.com/2011/08/31/american-style-terrorism/

    Many, Many people have been murdered around the campaign to vaccinate American Teens. It is time for that story to be told.

    Jenny Hatch
    http://WWW.JennyHatch.com

  40. 40
    Ing

    Now, perhaps some believe these types of measures are necessary to ensure we all stay healthy. I choose to believe that darker agendas are behind these laws being put into place.

    Choose to believe? Why? because the coin toss came up heads?

    I choose to believe you’re full of shit.

  41. 41
    Ing

    Many, Many people have been murdered around the campaign to vaccinate American Teens. It is time for that story to be told.

    We go from There may be a good reason for this–>I’m going to assume it’s evil—> MUUUUUUUUUURDERER!!!!

    You’re a nut; hint The Magic 8 ball is not a substitute for a moral compass

  42. 42
    raven

    I really wish I had to money to move. Immediately. Come on, USA!

    I’m getting tired of living in the insane asylum formerly known as the USA. If I wasn’t so rooted, I’d flee the country.

    The Federal Reserve predicts we will recover from Bush’s Great Recession in 2018. One more Tea Party president and add a decade. Recovery in 2028.

    This isn’t a lost decade, it is a lost generation.

    If Perry, Bachmann, or similar win, I’m just going to bag it. Work on my survival plans, spend time with the cats, and occasionally often raise a glass of wine to the former USA.

  43. 43
    Vicki, duly vaccinated tool of the feminist conspiracy

    Jenny–Where in the bill does it say that ERs must vaccinate people? Not “in your videos,” but a pointer to the US government Website version of the legislation.

    Yes, girls have died after getting the shot: others, and many boys, have died after not getting the shot. Gardasil does not convey immortality: it reduces the risk of a painful death from cancer. You’d think that would be enough.

    (I agree that there are times that mandatory vaccination is appropriate: to save children from being paralyzed by polio, for example. Also, did you know that they can lock you up if you have tuberculosis and refuse to be treated for it? Horrible, isn’t it, that the government doesn’t want you to infect me?)

  44. 44
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Jenny,
    Seriously, fuck right off. Speaking as some who isn’t fully vaccinated (due to medical issues) the last thing I want is your filthy, germ-spreading children making me sick.

    You are a dangerous idiot. Blogwhore somewhere else, asshole.

  45. 45
    The Pint

    from #39

    It is also implied in the bill that Peek a Boo squads can show up at your door and vaccinate you and your children if they are also not up to date on Vaccines. Medical Fascism is just around the corner…

    Oooooh! Someone pass the popcorn, we’ve got a live one here!

  46. 46
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Jenny, your blog is not the peer reviewed medical literature. Get a clue on the difference between opinion and solid evidence. All you have at your blog is inane, insane, and paranoid opinion. Evidence is not there.

  47. 47
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    if they are also not up to date on Vaccines.

    …Many Girls have died after getting the shot

    …Many, Many people

    What is it with Kooks and random Capitalization?

  48. 48
    raven

    I’m getting tired of living in the insane asylum formerly known as the USA.

    And here is one now.

    This Jenny Hatch is just a crackpot stringing together lies.

    There is no requirement for ER’s to vaccinate people. Peek A Boo squards don’t exist except in her mentally ill imagination.

    Kooks are boring. Jenny, you are losing your audience here. How about HAARP superweapons that cause earthquakes and tornadoes. And whatever you do, don’t forget to put the UN in somewhere.

  49. 49
    slignot

    Jenny, try again. We don’t listen to anecdotes and fear mongering to overrule safe and established medicine.

  50. 50
    tim rowledge, Ersatz Haderach

    I’m less scared by the idiot Bachmann than I am by the tea party members themselves.

    Last week they were cheering potentially innocent people put to death in Texas.

    I have a Modest Proposal regarding applying the death penalty; they get to have their YeeHaaa! fun… but if (or perhaps it ought to be ‘when’) the verdict turns out to have been wrong, well then everyone involved in the miscarriage of justice is executed, no appeals. The investigating police, the DA, the judge, the jury, the prosecuting lawyer, the state governor, all of them. Might as well add any media people that joined in the campaigning for an execution. They’re all in favour of people being responsible for their actions, aren’t they?

  51. 51
    raven

    It may sound like science fiction, but the US government has a reasearch center up in Alaska that can manipulate the weather and even penetrate the thoughts of your mind. Earthquakes, hurricanes, and even mind control. Clearly the stuff of science fiction, or is it?

    HAARP (High Frequency Active Auroral Reasearch Program): HAARP Episode 1:

    I don’t know if Jenny Hatch hides under her bed worrying about HAARP weapons, High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program weapons.

    But her co-residents of Crazyland do, along with the Illuminati, Trilateral commission, Bilderbergers, the UN, the Elders of Zion, and the Darwinists.

  52. 52
    Ing

    It may sound like science fiction, but the US government has a reasearch center up in Alaska that can manipulate the weather and even penetrate the thoughts of your mind. Earthquakes, hurricanes, and even mind control. Clearly the stuff of science fiction

    FFTF

    Says something about where you keep your head if you worry that a weather controlling device can affect it, eh?

    Seriously, that’s like the Professor’s Nose Making Machine (It makes glow in the dark noses…and translates writing)

  53. 53
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Wait, if the US government can control the weather, why the fuck did Irene cause so much damage? There’s plenty of people in upstate NY who would have preferred to not lose their homes.

  54. 54
    Ing

    @Audley

    Space Lizards culling their human live stock population.

  55. 55
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Ing,
    Oh, of course! I always forget about the lizard people.

  56. 56
    Ing

    @Audley

    Because they WANT you to!

    Of course the Lizards themselves are just puppets manipulated by the Silence who are….wait, what was I saying?

  57. 57
    The Pint

    It may sound like science fiction, but the US government has a reasearch center up in Alaska that can manipulate the weather and even penetrate the thoughts of your mind. Earthquakes, hurricanes, and even mind control. Clearly the stuff of science fiction, or is it?

    Because clearly they’ve been doing so well preventing hurricanes and tsunamis from causing untold amounts of expensive damage and costing innocent people their lives, right?

    Erm, you do realize that shows like FlashForward are fiction (and poorly done fiction at that) and not a documentaries, right?

  58. 58
    The Pint

    Of course the Lizards themselves are just puppets manipulated by the Silence who are….wait, what was I saying?

    Ing, why do you have so many marks on your arms and face?

  59. 59
    David Marjanović, OM

    Now, perhaps some believe these types of measures are necessary to ensure we all stay healthy. I choose to believe that darker agendas are behind these laws being put into place.

    What you write leaves me no choice but to believe you’re full of shit.

    What is it with Kooks and random Capitalization?

    Wait till you get to the URL. LOL.

    Probably she believes www must be capitalized because it’s an abbreviation!

    I have a Modest Proposal regarding applying the death penalty; they get to have their YeeHaaa! fun… but if (or perhaps it ought to be ‘when’) the verdict turns out to have been wrong, well then everyone involved in the miscarriage of justice is executed, no appeals. The investigating police, the DA, the judge, the jury, the prosecuting lawyer, the state governor, all of them. Might as well add any media people that joined in the campaigning for an execution. They’re all in favour of people being responsible for their actions, aren’t they?

    I like that.

    It may sound like science fiction, but the US government has a reasearch center up in Alaska that can manipulate the weather and even penetrate the thoughts of your mind. Earthquakes, hurricanes, and even mind control. Clearly the stuff of science fiction, or is it?

    “Even”? Mind control sounds a lot easier to me than frigging earthquake control.

    Let alone attempts to move continents and ocean floors around by messing with the fucking ionosphere. But I digress. I shouldn’t talk about reality in this context.

  60. 60
    pelamun

    “Even”? Mind control sounds a lot easier to me than frigging earthquake control.

    Not that I’d be overly familiar with conspiracy theories, but wouldn’t mind control here refer to something like controlling/influencing the minds of the population of an entire area at the same time?

  61. 61
    Luke Scientiae

    Michelle Bachmann is a disgrace. How could anyone imagine her (or Perry, or Ron Paul, or Santorum) marshalling any sensible education or research funding policy, let alone responding to climate change or the threat of a global pandemic?

    For those interested, I have compiled a list of EVERY Republican 2012 candidate and what they think of two key science issues that test their relationship with reality: climate change and evolution. I hope it will prove useful:

    http://www.lukesci.com/2011/09/06/all-of-the-2012-republican-candidates-on-climate-and-evolution/

  62. 62
    Carbon Based Life Form

    In #11, Auraboy says:

    The real brilliance of the exchange was when Perry said ‘I raised $30 million dollars, I’m offended if you think they could buy me for $5000…’ It’s not so much that he’s ruling out being bought off by a corporation, just that he needs a bigger set of zeroes to ensure compliance…

    Actually, he seems to be saying that he is offended that someone would think his price was as low as $5000. You should offer him a lot more if you want to buy him.

  63. 63
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    For those interested, I have compiled a list of EVERY Republican 2012 candidate and what they think of two key science issues that test their relationship with reality: climate change and evolution. I hope it will prove useful:

    Good and useful post. Thanks.

  64. 64
    Phoenician in a time of Romans

    Many Girls have died after getting the shot – I created a blog entry yesterday that includes seven informational VIDEOS about those deaths

    Many many girls have died after accessing the Internet. Just saying.

  65. 65
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Damn it Jenny Hatch, you may not just breeze through here with such a quantity of high-quality batshittery and then leave like the waitress who brings your drinks but forgets to deliver the meal. Get back here and put out. We’ve been begging the cosmos for a good troll lately, and we [i]will[/i] have our sufficiency.

  66. 66
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    David M:

    Mind control sounds a lot easier to me than frigging earthquake control.

    Toward the end of his life, Tesla believed that he could split the world in two with the correct resonant frequency. *shrug* Sounds easier to me than trying to manipulate brainwaves or some shit.

    … We need more mad scientists.

  67. 67
    Ragutis

    Mind control? You mean religion? Or were you thinking of marketing? Or wait, maybe Fox News?

    Thanks for the link, slignot.

  68. 68
    Jenny Hatch

    Hey guys!

    Lots of hugs and kisses! First someone tells me to FO and then another person SWEETLY invites me back to enjoy a lovely thoughtful chat on Vaccines.

    I am a busy Mom, so don’t have much time but here is an article about the IN-HOME vaccinations: http://vactruth.com/2009/12/19/health-care-bill-creates-peek-a-boo-squads-to-enforce-in-home-vaccinations/

    XOXO

    Jen

  69. 69
    Ing

    @Jenny

    GOD NO HUGS OR KISSES FROM YOU!? You’re covered in horrible diseases!

  70. 70
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    XOXO

    Now I have to put this in the same folder as “I’ll pray for you” and “Have a nice day”. I call that folder Fuck you too.
    As for the web page with that obnoxious floaty thing – XOXO you too.

  71. 71
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    so don’t have much time but here is an article about the IN-HOME vaccinations:

    A blog isn’t the peer reviewed medical literature, ergo, you offered us zip. If you think it is, you are a delusional and stupid fool. We aren’t. Try again with real evidence from a real scientific journal.

  72. 72
    The Pint

    I am a busy Mom, so don’t have much time but here is an article about the IN-HOME vaccinations: http://vactruth.com/2009/12/19/health-care-bill-creates-peek-a-boo-squads-to-enforce-in-home-vaccinations/

    Obviously you’re too busy to provide actual, peer-reviewed, evidence. What a disappointment, shiny new chew toy barely even made a squeak before it fell apart.

  73. 73
    SplendidMonkey

    Wow, it seems like there’s no one left to battle the kooks commenting on the duplicate post on the scienceblogs Pharyngula. The crazy goes unassailed.

  74. 74
    John Morales

    [meta]

    SplendidMonkey, I just took a look there.

    You’re quite wrong (unless you consider respected regulars to be kooks).

  75. 75
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Jenny:

    First someone tells me to FO…

    You’re talking about me! Yes, I meant it– fuck off, you ignorant shit-stain. And keep your disease bearing spawn the hell away from me.

    … and then another person SWEETLY invites me back to enjoy a lovely thoughtful chat on Vaccines.

    “Vaccines” shouldn’t be capitalized, moron.

    I am a busy Mom…

    Neither should “mom”. Jay-zuz, what is with the kooks and random uppercase letters?

    … so don’t have much time but here is an article about the IN-HOME vaccinations: http://vactruth.com/2009/12/19/health-care-bill-creates-peek-a-boo-squads-to-enforce-in-home-vaccinations/

    Why won’t you provide the actual, relevant portion of the health care bill, instead of some (what I assume to be; I ain’t clicking that link) anti-vax conspiracy site?

    Oh wait… I know the answer to this: It’s because this goon squad that you’re so scared of doesn’t exist.

    How many young girls have died as a direct result of the HPV vaccine? Real sources (not loony ramblings), plz. You could also try to wow me with direct quotes from the healthcare law, too (although I’m not gonna hold my breath).

  76. 76
    tielserrath

    Ing @ #57:

    Of course the Lizards themselves are just puppets manipulated by the Silence who are….wait, what was I saying?

    And we’ve just found out that the Silence is a religious order.

    It all makes sense now…

  77. 77
    tielserrath

    I am a busy Mom…

    Jeez, what is it with the ‘look, look, I’m fertile’ thing? My rabbit got pregnant last week. It’s not an achievement. Just sayin.

    You’re bringing up kids who are unvaccinated and ill-educated. That’s nothing to be proud of.

  78. 78
    McCthulhu, now with -25% less fat.

    The only medical condition on display here is bad case of mental TeaTardation. It’s caused by a serious lack of cognitive power and education funding. And that funding is something that every TeaTard continues to fight against.

    The entire party is suffering from the worst case of arrogance from ignorance in the history of the country and it genuinely has me considering going back home to Canada. The state of the union, in every aspect, has the stupid, electing the stupid to do stupid things. They love to pat themselves on the back about how patriotic they are and what would the founding fathers do, but ignore the fact that the founding fathers were all incredibly lucid and erudite people that based their democratic ideals on the public making decisions based on knowledge of the issues, not what a bunch of talking heads on a ‘news’-for-hire station owned by one of the most disingenuous men in recorded history tells them to do.

    Canada’s PM Harper may have designs on fashioning himself after this country’s Republicans, but he’s nowhere near becoming them…yet. Better the devil that you know than the one that is just plain batshit crazy and unpredictable.

  79. 79
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    tielserrath:

    My rabbit got pregnant last week. It’s not an achievement.

    Ha! Love it!

    Hear that, Jenny? No one gives two fucks that you managed to get knocked up! It’s really not an amazing achievement, since humans have been, you know, doing it for millennia.

  80. 80
    Phoenician in a time of Romans

    I am a busy Mom, so don’t have much time but here is an article about the IN-HOME vaccinations: http://vactruth.com/2009/12/19/health-care-bill-creates-peek-a-boo-squads-to-enforce-in-home-vaccinations/

    Oh, Jesus Christ, it isn’t even pseudo-science. It’s political conspiracy theory.

    As best I can tell from a short look:

    i, Title 5 of the US Code says federal committees/task forces have to do yada yada yada – essentially responsible governance. It’s a Congressional restraint on the executive department saying “keep us informed”.

    ii, The new health care Bill has a piddly-anty wonk committee set up in part of it. Essentially it’s a bunch of guys who think of ways to save money by coordinating health policy. Boring, but necessary.

    iii, Congress, in setting it up, said “you know what? Don’t bother reporting to us – just go away and do it. The formalities of Title 5 don’t apply.

    iv, I’m going to speculate here, but I’m guessing that this legislative “just do it” is used with EVERY piddly-assed wonk committee – otherwise Congress would be innundated with paper. The default is “you gotta report”, the important committees do, the piddly-ant ones are given an out. By CONGRESS, mind. From a restriction imposed by CONGRESS.

    v, These yo-yos read the Bill closely but with no understanding and immediately pegged this piddly-assed committee as the Men in Black because they’re not subject to one particular restriction on size, activities and numbers. Presumably they get funded out of thin air, and no-one ever expects a report from them ever.

  81. 81
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Okay, so I lied. I did click the “Vactruth” link. Here’s what I found under the AIDS heading:

    While scientists from around the world gather in Vienna to discuss how to fight AIDS at the 18th International AIDS Conference, there are a lot of AIDS skeptics doubt that official medicine will be able to find a solution. Robert Scott Bell says that the scientists at the conference are wrong because there is no need for drugs to cure this syndrome.

    http://vactruth.com/category/by-vaccine/aids/

  82. 82
    Bill Dauphin, avec fromage

    Beatrice:

    XOXO

    Now I have to put this in the same folder as “I’ll pray for you” and “Have a nice day”. I call that folder Fuck you too.

    Also, “Well, bless your heart!”

  83. 83
    raven

    Robert Scott Bell says that the scientists at the conference are wrong because there is no need for drugs to cure this syndrome.

    Oh, A HIV/AIDS denialist.

    HIV/AIDS denialist Christine Maggiore is dead : Respectful Insolence
    scienceblogs.com/…/hivaids_denialist_christine_maggiore_die.php – CachedSimilar
    You +1′d this publicly. Undo
    Dec 30, 2008 – The reason is that her mother, Christine Maggiore, was a prominent HIV/AIDS denialist, who, after having been found to be HIV positive back in …

    Christine Maggiore was HIV+ and an AIDS denialist. She died of AIDS. She also managed to infect her little kid who died of AIDS at age ca. 2.

    This happens a lot with HIV denialists. There are long lists of HIV+ denialists who died of AIDS.

    This anti-vax nonsense and the related magical thinking about HIV can and does kill people.

    This Jenny may be a “busy mom” but so what, she is also contributing in her own small, stupid, crazy way to making a lot of people unnecessarily sick and killing a few.

  84. 84
    Charlie Foxtrot

    I am a busy Mom

    Kids in iron-lungs can be soooo time-consuming…

  85. 85
    Harry Organs

    I wonder what she got injected with as a kid…

  86. 86
    Ichthyic

    This anti-vax nonsense and the related magical thinking about HIV can and does kill people.

    http://jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Home.html

    this guy has been keeping track of both the illness and deaths (statistics straight from the CDC) directly attributable to antivaxxer activities for several years now.

  87. 87
    Ichthyic

    mental TeaTardation

    we should just shorten that.

    MenTeaTardation

  88. 88
    Ichthyic

    My rabbit got pregnant last week. It’s not an achievement. Just sayin.

    it is if you’re the one that got the rabbit pregnant. Now that would be an achievement!

    I don’t think a cigar would cover it somehow.

    lit carrot maybe?

  89. 89
    Ichthyic

    It is time for that story to be told completely fabricated by people who wear tinfoil hats.

    fixed.

  90. 90
    Ichthyic

    er, “told” was supposed to be struck out, but I got so used to the code on the other site, I didn’t even notice that it’s different now.

    It is time for that story to be told completely fabricated by people who wear tinfoil hats.

    fixed.

    again.

  91. 91
    Ichthyic

    I really wish I had to money to move. Immediately. Come on, USA!

    Having done said thing I can truthfully say this:

    the insanity is everywhere these days.

    it’s just worse in the States, and has more impact.

  92. 92
    Ichthyic

    Bachmann and all Tea Partiers and Republicans back this kind of growth of government. It costs taxpayers billions. Oversight is lacking. Waste is enormous. About six of the hundreds of agencies, offices, and sub-offices do some useful work. The rest is government bloat of the Republican kind.

    Buildings with 500,000 square feet of space (five Wal-Mart Super Stores stacked five stories high) were built to house so many Homeland Security workers that the workforce is unwieldy. No one knows if they are effective, nor how much money is being bled from other government functions in order to support a security/anti-terrorism effort.

    In a recent Fresh Air episode, Dana Priest (“Top Secret America”) was interviewed. The details of this huge growth of government were detailed.

    yup. The Department of Homeland Security is by far and away the single largest government created agency of any kind to ever exist. in the world. ever.

    On the plus side, it sure does employ a lot of people, so as a “Federal Works Project”, it is almost like FDR’s attempt to do the same. In fact, I’ve often wondered if this is the very reason W used to compare himself to FDR.

    that said, in support of the above, I would also note that not only has Obama NOT abolished the DHS, but funds have been expanded and renewed.

    waste is the new growth.

    war is peace.

    freedom is slavery.

    etc.

  93. 93
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Raven:

    Oh, A HIV/AIDS denialist.

    Or someone who thinks AIDS can be cured with homeopathy. Either way, disgusting.

  94. 94
    Alenonimo

    What kind of tea this Tea Party drinks? Ayahuasca?

  95. 95
    Jenny Hatch

    Beatrice and Bill,

    You two are Really Really good at interpreting “Mormon Speak”..

    Have a “Lovely” day,

    XOXO

    HUGS AND KISSES!

    Jenny Hatch

  96. 96
    myeck waters

    Jenny Hatch, either provide some actual real evidence to back up the insane claims you made, or just keep quiet. Repeatedly coming in just to throw snark around, rather than address the emptiness of your position, is a waste of everyone’s time.

  97. 97
    Jenny Hatch

    A thousand apologies, had NO IDEA this was a serious, thoughtful, and straight laced snark free zone of enlightenment and sophistication.

    Nope, none of that at my house, or on my blog. It is all just one big delusional paranoid fantasy of sovereign family living ahd empowered self reliance…

    Please accept my heartfelt and most humble and SINCERE apology.

    I will never again sully this bastion of “FREE THOUGHT” bought and paid for by Merck.

    Jen

  98. 98
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Ah, Jenny, proving to us what an intellectual lightweight you are with another insipid post. Your lack of solid scientific evidence is overwhelming, no matter how friendly you try to deliver your insipid message.

  99. 99
    The Pint

    I will never again sully this bastion of “FREE THOUGHT” bought and paid for by Merck.

    Wait. We were bought and paid for by big pharma?? Why didn’t anyone tell me? And where the hell is my check?!?

    Psst – Jenny, this is one of those assertions that falls under “needs evidence.” And again, you’re coming up empty handed.

  100. 100
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    The Pint,
    Don’t hold your breath for that check. Big Pharma is notoriously bad at paying it’s shills. I’ve been waiting for my payment for years.

    Jenny,
    Obviously, you have no idea what “free thought” refers to. Here’s a hint: it’s not a call to stupidity.

    Once again I’ve gotta ask: Any evidence for your claims? Or are you just an angry mom who is too much of a moron to realize that she is putting her children (and people like me) at risk?

  101. 101
    Ing

    My rabbit got pregnant last week. It’s not an achievement. Just sayin.

    it is if you’re the one that got the rabbit pregnant. Now that would be an achievement!

    I don’t think a cigar would cover it somehow.

    lit carrot maybe?

    Ugh I just watched the Masters of Horror: Sick Girl too. Bleaah

  102. 102
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I will never again sully this bastion of “FREE THOUGHT” bought and paid for by Merck.

    Boy, you don’t understand much, do you? Free thought involves skepticism, which involves evidence. The evidence that vaccines are safe and effective is overwhelming. The side-effects are studied and reported. In order to change our minds, you have to present real scientific evidence, not conspiracy theories from web sites.

    Oh, my big pharma check is in the mail, next to the checks for AGW, evolution, animal testing, and being an atheist. All are long overdue by about forty years.

  103. 103
    Ing

    I will never again sully this bastion of “FREE THOUGHT” bought and paid for by Merck.

    You know it always baffles me that they pick Merck specifically? I believe Merck is the company that is at a lost providing indefinite free supplies of a non-profitable high-potency drug to the 3rd world?

    Yes pharmas have dirty hands but they’re made up of people. You’re going to get some policies and that made by greedy bastards but it’s a pharma company…some of the people there are interested in making cures and getting them to people.

    If the Pharmas were so powerful and so immoral they would just force through legalization of drugs and focus their research on pumping out cheap, quick highs. It’d be far more profitable.

  104. 104
    PZ Myers

    WHERE’S MY MERCK MONEY? I haven’t got one check from Big Pharma. They owe me.

  105. 105
    Jenny Hatch

    Audley,

    The scientific evidence that you request is to be found in my personal statistics.

    Five Hatch Children not vaccinated and No Autism in any of them.

    Two daughters not given the HPV vaccine and they are still alive!

    This is the only scientific study that means anything to me personally.

    I am not really into scientific double blind placeboed junk science that is bought and paid for by Pharma Companies.

    My own experience with attempts to “silence” me on the web have taught me that Big Pharma will go to just about any length to shut up those of us blowing our internet whistles.

    http://bloggingmothersmagazine.com/2011/08/31/american-style-terrorism/

    If you have any evidence that what I wrote in that article is not true, please present it.

    Jenny Hatch
    http://WWW.JennyHatch.com

  106. 106
    Ing

    The scientific evidence that you request is to be found in my personal statistics.

    Five Hatch Children not vaccinated and No Autism in any of them.

    Two daughters not given the HPV vaccine and they are still alive

    There are 5 people in my generation in my family. All vaccinated. No Autism.

    Two have gotten HPV, still alive.

  107. 107
    Ing

    My own experience with attempts to “silence” me on the web have taught me that Big Pharma will go to just about any length to shut up those of us blowing our internet whistles.

    Why not just kill you?

    I mean they have no trouble killing kids and a hitman is cheaper than a PR campaign? Why not just hit you with a SUV one day and make it look like an accident?

  108. 108
    Ing

    Apparently Big Pharma has also never read the Evil Overlord List.

    Hell if I was an evil sci-fi villain with a Pharma company I could silence them all by Sunday. Again going off of the presumption of the weather control and other bullshit science

    1) Make a designer GM plague
    2) Design it so that a common vaccine (say MMR) also renders the person immune to it
    3) release plague
    4) Enjoy the silence as everyone who knew about the poison your put in your vaccine is now dead since they didn’t get the cure you also put in it.
    5) Muaha ha ha hahaha. Ha.

  109. 109
    Waffler, of the Waffler Institute

    Any random family with 5 children is 95+% likely to be autism free. So what?

  110. 110
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Jenny,
    No dice. I’m looking for direct links to studies that show that vaccines cause autism or death* and/or the relevant language in the healthcare law that shows that the government is going to invade your home and forcefully vaccinate you.

    I am not wasting my time reading a shitty conservative mommies** blog.

    *Studies that haven’t been discredited, anyway.

    **Teaching women to read and write is a liberal idea, you know. Oooh, doesn’t it just make your blood boil that big government forced your parents to send you to school?

  111. 111
    Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM

    The scientific evidence that you request is to be found in my personal statistics.

    You have no idea what scientific evidence is.

    Also, before you pull out your bit about being a “busy mom”, there are scientists who also pull off being a “busy mom”. Quite a few of the regulars here are “busy moms”. Being a “busy mom” is no excuse for being a self deluded fool.

  112. 112
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Oh, my big pharma check is in the mail, next to the checks for AGW, evolution, animal testing, and being an atheist. All are long overdue by about forty years.

    So many confessions, but still not admitting that you’re getting checks from those radical feminists. Good to know where your loyalty really lays.

  113. 113
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    The scientific evidence that you request is to be found in my personal statistics.Your anecdotes aren’t scientific data. Scientific data requires large sample sizes, preferably in the millions. Your children are protected by the heard immunity. Vaccines don’t cause autism, which is a genetic/in-utero development problem.

    Don’t complain about us having closed minds, as yours is shut tight, unwilling to look at real scientific evidence.

  114. 114
    myeck waters

    Jenny Hatch #98

    A thousand apologies, had NO IDEA this was a serious, thoughtful, and straight laced snark free zone of enlightenment and sophistication.

    Typical. You make no attempt to respond to what was actually said, but make up a ridiculous strawman to attack.

    Snark is welcome IF IT COMES WITH CONTENT. Since you have provided no content, your posts are merely wasting time and taking up valuable virtual space. Well, they’re tiresome too, so you’ve got that going for you.

    Nope, none of that at my house, or on my blog. It is all just one big delusional paranoid fantasy of sovereign family living ahd empowered self reliance…

    More irrelevant dribbling. What we asked for was some sort of factual backing for your claims.

    Please accept my heartfelt and most humble and SINCERE apology.

    Since this is clearly not sincere, I can only conclude that you, Jenny Hatch, are a liar. How much credence should I give to the claims of the liar Jenny Hatch?

    I will never again sully this bastion of “FREE THOUGHT” bought and paid for by Merck.

    If you actually read a few of the threads here, you would quickly see that people here argue with each other all the time. Sometimes quite forcibly. Sometimes they argue with PZM as well. People who actually think for themselves are funny like that.

    And as for the Merck thing, have you ever considered how much money it would cost Merck to buy off every media entity you think they’ve bought off? They’d be long bankrupt.

    Congratulations on not sticking the flounce, by the way.

  115. 115
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Dang, the computer is sluggish on this thread, so I didn’t preview and borked the end blockquote. The first sentence of #114 is Jenny the Loon’s, the rest is my post.

  116. 116
    myeck waters

    The sudden lack of stupid made the transition obvious, Nerd.

  117. 117
    The Pint

    <The scientific evidence that you request is to be found in my personal statistics.

    Five Hatch Children not vaccinated and No Autism in any of them.

    Two daughters not given the HPV vaccine and they are still alive!

    This is the only scientific study that means anything to me personally.

    Ok, so basically: “I don’t care what science says, I’ve got mine so fuck the rest of you if my kids get an infection and spread it to others because they weren’t vaccinated!”

    Unless you’re just not letting them out of the house at all. Given your level of paranoia, I’m surprised you’ve allowed yourself on the internet because now the ebil government agents can find you by tracking your IP address, you fool! /eyeroll

    Correlation =/= causation. You have NO PROOF that NOT getting vaccinated is why none of your children have autism and why your daughters are still alive. What you’ve presented here is not scientific evidence, it’s anecdotal – it is subjective, not objective, and unverified until tested and proven. Please do learn the difference.

    Vaccines are like insurance and federally-funded social safety nets: Everyone takes the benefits they provide for granted and nobody thinks that they *really* need them – until they do. The problem is by not vaccinating your kids, you’re putting others at risk because of your pigheaded refusal to accept facts and preference for fantastical conspiracy theories with no value other than to reinforce your skewed and self-centered world view, and that is a level of selfish disregard for others that I find utterly reprehensible.

  118. 118
    Janine, The Little Top Of Venom, OM

    I just followed Jenny’s link to her home page. It is in Lynna’s area of expertise. She is a professional mormon crank.

    Do not follow the link to her favorite artist, pure christian/mormon cheese.

  119. 119
    The Pint

    re: #118 – GAH!! Somehow my tags got messed up. The first four lines are not mine. Should read:

    The scientific evidence that you request is to be found in my personal statistics.

    Five Hatch Children not vaccinated and No Autism in any of them.

    Two daughters not given the HPV vaccine and they are still alive!

    This is the only scientific study that means anything to me personally.

    Ok, so basically: “I don’t care what science says, I’ve got mine so fuck the rest of you if my kids get an infection and spread it to others because they weren’t vaccinated!”

    Unless you’re just not letting them out of the house at all. Given your level of paranoia, I’m surprised you’ve allowed yourself on the internet because now the ebil government agents can find you by tracking your IP address, you fool! /eyeroll

    Correlation =/= causation. You have NO PROOF that NOT getting vaccinated is why none of your children have autism and why your daughters are still alive. What you’ve presented here is not scientific evidence, it’s anecdotal – it is subjective, not objective, and unverified until tested and proven. Please do learn the difference.

    Vaccines are like insurance and federally-funded social safety nets: Everyone takes the benefits they provide for granted and nobody thinks that they *really* need them – until they do. The problem is by not vaccinating your kids, you’re putting others at risk because of your pigheaded refusal to accept facts and preference for fantastical conspiracy theories with no value other than to reinforce your skewed and self-centered world view, and that is a level of selfish disregard for others that I find utterly reprehensible.

  120. 120
    Heliantus

    I will never again sully this bastion of “FREE THOUGHT” bought and paid for by Merck.

    Ooh, the Pharma shill gambit. How original.

    And just after saying this, she comes back with:

    Five Hatch Children not vaccinated and No Autism in any of them.

    Yes, because with occurence of autism in the 1 for 120 children in the general US population (which is mostly vaccinated to some extend), there is no chance of having 5 neurotypical children.
    Oh, wait.

    My own experience with attempts to “silence” me on the web

    You mean like EpiMD has been silenced by an Altie seller of vitamins, just last month? Like Dr Singh sued by chiropractors in UK, like Brian Deers sued by Dr Wakefield, like Orac accused of a non-existant conflict of interest by Age of Autism?

    have taught me that Big Pharma Quacks will go to just about any length to shut up those of us blowing our internet whistles.

    FTFY.

  121. 121
    raven

    Jenny the crazy Mormon kook:

    The scientific evidence that you request is to be found in my personal statistics.

    Five Hatch Children not vaccinated and No Autism in any of them.

    Two daughters not given the HPV vaccine and they are still alive!

    This is the only scientific study that means anything to me personally.

    You left something out. Your family didn’t escape from mental illness. Your claims of persecution are paranoid and delusional. You also seem rather hostile and irrational.

    You are also something of a parasite on our society. One of the benefits of vaccination is herd immunity. You and your kids aren’t getting smallpox or polio because herd immunity drove one to extinction and made the other disease unknown in the USA. It’s the same with many other infectious diseases.

    BTW, my large extended family of dozens have all been vaccinated. No autism, Mormonism, or paranoid schizophrenia in any of them. We are ahead of you.

    Mormon Mom Blogger Jenny Hatch Talks about Three Ways to “Go ….. My local pharmacist who had been dispensing the anti-depressant to ….. Any portion of your life that makes it impossible for you to cook nourishing foods while …

    Oh. She is a Mormon. How unfortunate. They aren’t all into wacko woo medicine but many are.

  122. 122
    anteprepro

    Antivax troll sez: “A thousand apologies, had NO IDEA this was a serious, thoughtful, and straight laced snark free zone of enlightenment and sophistication.”

    Snark free =/= serious, thoughtful, or sophistication.
    There is plenty of snark here, but most people being snarky also try to make a fucking point.

    “I will never again sully this bastion of “FREE THOUGHT” bought and paid for by Merck.”

    Yes, everyone who agrees with science and physicians are bought and paid for by pharmaceutical companies. What an insightful gem you’ve brought to us. I’ll echo what others have said: Where’s my fucking pay check!? If only the people who sided with the reality of a situation were given money for doing so. The world might be a little bit of a better place.

    Also: you have no idea how statistics work, do you? A sample size of 5, from the same fucking family, is NOT FUCKING LARGE ENOUGH to say anything about autism (affecting 0.6% of the population, and with a large genetic factor). Do you try to be this fuckwitted, or does it just come naturally to you?

  123. 123
    raven

    Jenny the crazy Mormon troll:

    “I will never again sully this bastion of “FREE THOUGHT” bought and paid for by Merck.”

    She is lying here.

    Where else can a crazy Mormon anti-vaxer troll go to drop off some trash and babble like an idiot? In Jenny’s creepy world, normal people are unknown.

    It’s no fun being a troll when everyone around you are the same, i.e. trolls.

  124. 124
    slignot

    You know, I wish I was surprised that Jenny Hatch not only delusional about vaccines and real medicine, but is also a Proud Mormon Mom™. But given the number of credulous, friendly, smiling-without-kindness Mormons I’ve met over the years here who reject scientific medicine, it is far from unusual. The frequency with which I hear women around me speaking rapturously about some alt-med treatment as vastly superior to proven medicine is frankly depressing. My neighbor growing up pushed Melaleuca as a cure for pretty much everything.

  125. 125
    Lynna, OM

    Melaleuca is mormon to the core. Fred VacuousSnoot even used some of his melaleuca money to campaign against outing mormon Boy Scout Troop Leaders who were sexually abusing boys.

  126. 126
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Jenny,
    A couple of things:
    1) I have three sisters. All four of us have received vaccinations* and NONE!** of us have autism. So, you’ve proven absolutely nothing.

    2) Isn’t the goal for Mormon women seven children? Better crank out another couple of kids while you still can or no heaven for you!

    *I am partially vaccinated.

    **Look, I can randomly capitalize random words, too!

  127. 127
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    More anecdata:

    All seven of me and my brothers and my sisters were vaccinated, and NONE! of us have autism.

    Also, all seven of us grew up healthy and generally deadly-disease free.

  128. 128
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Nigel,
    Six siblings? Holy shit.

  129. 129
    Vicki, duly vaccinated tool of the feminist conspiracy

    I had vaccines that people don’t even get anymore (smallpox), or don’t get in the U.S. anymore (BCG to prevent tuberculosis), and I’m not autistic. But it may not be too late: I’m only partway through the HepB series.

  130. 130
    Lynna, OM

    I think Jenny Hatch’s real fear is that teenaged females and young adult females will have sex outside of marriage, and will not be punished with cervical cancer because they’ve been vaccinated against it.

    There are a lot of people like Jenny that prefer death over loss of “virtue” for females.

    Hell, if you even get close to that HPV vaccine the Lawd Gawd Almighty will strike you dead.

    As for the “Big Pharma” conspiracy theories, there are plenty of reality-based battles to be fought about drug development and drug delivery. Wildly exaggerated conspiracy theories from the ragged edge of the woo-infected morridor do not help us fight the real battles. In fact, they are a distraction.

    Jenny, all five of your autism-free children equal five anecdotes, not significant statistics.

    There are a lot of adults who haven’t learned how to think critically, who have little or no ability to discriminate between hyperbole and fact, but mormonism actively values those failures to think. You’ve been taught to dismiss careful analysis in favor of emotionally-based anecdote. This is not a good thing. That trait prevents you from being a fully-functional adult. It keeps you in sheeple mode, as if you were a gullible 12-year-old.

    Brave the waters of Pharyngula more often, Jenny. You’ll slowly grow up. You’ll learn to think.

    You might want to consider lurking instead of posting for a year or so.

  131. 131
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    Audley Z. Darkheart:

    Nigel,
    Six siblings? Holy shit.

    Yeah. Big family. Not religious. In fact, my mom has been an atheist for as long as I remember. My dad has some vague idea there might be something “more,” but that doesn’t translate into life after death or anything near wooish.

    There was a whole passel of us, though.

  132. 132
    Lynna, OM

    “I’ve read the Book of Mormon twenty-two times.” — Jenny Hatch

    There’s part of her problem right there.

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/blogmommagazine/2011/03/07/the-jenny-hatch-show

    She figures that Heavenly Father gave her all these mothering skills, and she doesn’t need any stinkin’ medical industry getting in the way.

    Furthermore, the shit will hit the fan big time soon, so as a mormon she needs to be prepared. She needs to be self-reliant.

    She’s been reading Moroni 7, verse 26 daily.

    She’s into “Lotus birthing.”

    And when she says “darker agendas are behind these laws…” [in reference to vaccinating children], she means Satan, or the Adversary. I don’t think reality measures up to her need for drama, nor to her longing for a really evil adversary focused on stripping her of her mothering/birthing skills.

  133. 133
    flattopSF

    Jenny Hatch is demented and dangerous, and so are her disease-spreading offspring. Where is a good, clean Mor[m]on Eugenicist when you need one?

    8^D

  134. 134
    monad

    WHERE’S MY MERCK MONEY? I haven’t got one check from Big Pharma. They owe me.

    Well, I don’t want to go into too much personal detail, but I will admit to having been bought by Big Medicine. Not that I have received any money from them either.

    However, they did save a family member’s life after they nearly died from a disease they were too young to be vaccinated against. And since then they nearly wiped out the chance anyone else would ever have to suffer the same thing again. Until, as statistics show, the anti-vaccination movement started bringing it back.

    So now, every time I hear someone like Michele or Jenny speak, I think of my family and know exactly what they are wishing on people. And that inspires far more contempt for them than mere cash ever could. People talk about autism with such horror, you’d think they have no idea what death is.

  135. 135
    raven

    So now, every time I hear someone like Michele or Jenny speak, I think of my family and know exactly what they are wishing on people.

    When I was a kid, a lot of the adults around us limped in various ways.

    Polio.

    According to my parents, everyone dreaded polio in the summer when the epidemics happened.

    Of course, having been vaccinated against polio, my generation never worried about it or even heard of anyone getting it.

    The Jenny Hatches of the world are just parasites free riding on herd immunity while spreading hatred of the people who really improved our lives and health. A century ago, the average lifespan in the USA was 47. We’ve gained an extra 30 years thanks to science.

  136. 136
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Of course, having been vaccinated against polio, my generation never worried about it or even heard of anyone getting it.

    I think this may be one of the reasons that the anti-progressive backlash has been so successful. The laws, and the programs to implement the laws, have been so successful that a significant percentage of the US population think that it has always been like this, and that the rules and regulations are not needed.

    There was a time when there were no worker safety laws, save for those instituted by the industry to increase profits (such as air brakes on trains).

    A girl in a silk mill, losing a finger to the jenny, did not get paid for her recovery time, paid her own doctor’s bill, and, in some cases, paid for the silk her blood had ruined. Before 1916, girls as young as six years old worked in the mills.

    Boys as young as eight years old pulled the slated from the coal as it passed down chutes between their feet. Finger tips were burned by sulfur until no feeling remained; a condition which was permanent. For ten to twelve hours a day, they breathed in coal dust in rooms in which there was little ventilation. When they got older, they went into the anthracite mines and, if not killed in mining accidents, were dead of black lung disease by age 35 to 40.

    Swimming pools closed during the hottest summer months because of the danger of polio. Every mother and father lived in fear of a summer ‘flu’ which could lead to paralysis and death.

    Horrible facial and body scarring was considered not only normal, but an advantage, in the days befor the smallpox vaccine. Carrying the scars meant that you were immune to the disease.

    Medicine was, at one time, a total crapshoot. One medicine might relieve the symptoms (aspirin, or quinine, for example). Another medicine might be a lethal combination of alcohol, opium, and whatever else happened to be hanging around the factory at the time. And there was no way to know which medicines worked, which were placebos, and which were snake oil.

    In 1969, the Cuyahoga River caught fire, bringing to the forefront the problems of water pollution. Smog in large cities did the same for air pollution.

    Today, we have workplace safety standards which prevent most accidents (assuming they are actually followed, of course). Child labour laws have removed children from extremely hazardous work. Mandatory vaccination has made polio virtually invisible in the developed world. Variola, the smallpox virus, is extinct in the wild. The Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act have reduced visible pollution in the US profoundly. Food and medicine purity laws, and the testing to enforce them, protect what we put into our bodies for nutrition and health. Most of us are aware of these changes, and hundreds more.

    And now, in the US, we live in a safer world. A world in which the most visible, most obvious, most lethal, hazards are minimized. And are minimized to the extent that it makes the world look perfectly safe from a regulatory standpoint.

    Those of us who are younger, unless we are aware of the flow of history, are unaware that life has ever been different. The laws paid for in blood, tears, and lives, are viewed, by many in the US, as unecessary. After all, it has been safe for my entire life, why do we need laws to keep that in place? Polio, and other epidemic disease, is exceedingly rare in the US, why do we need to keep vaccinating when no one gets sick from those diseases anymore?

    And the conservative industrial complex has carefully inserted itself into this pernicious meme. Efforts to eliminate laws governing pollution, worker safety, product safety, food and medicine safety, and others, will, in the short term*, increase the profits for virtually any company. Where laws cannot be removed or gutted, the enforcement of the existing laws is made impossible. All so the rich can get even richer, the powerful can get even more powerful, and the rest of us can get screwed.

    Anti-vaccination campaigns would seem an outlyer on this. After all, the companies which produce vaccines are large corporations trying to maximize profit for the shareholders. It is an odd outgrowth of the deregulation drumbeat, but it does help some companies. Those peddling placebos and snake oil know that they can sell more, at higher prices, to people who are afraid of vaccinations, so it really does fit into the pattern.

    Sorry for the long comment. This one has been percolating for a while and just happened to pop up here. Sorry.

    * Capitalism does many things very, very, very well. Long term planning is not one of them. The CEO of a public corporation is expected to increase shareholder earnings each and every quarter. Failure to do so, or failure to appear to be doing so, is a good way to lose one’s job. Publicly owned companies, for the most part, are looking ahead three to five years at the most (and often much less than that). After all, given the constant churning of executives in private industry, they’ll all be somewhere else in five years, with the money they earned, the stock options they exercised, and the golden parachute to help them through the rough transition phases. Short term profits are the ones that really matter to a true capitalist.

  137. 137
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Looking around for a little information at Google U….

    So…according to the CDC HPV is incredibly common: about 20 million people in the US are currently infected with it, about 50% of people in the US will be infected by it at one time, and about 6 million people a year are newly infected. In 90% of cases the immune system handles it within two years without further problems. In the remaining cases, it can lead to other problems, including cervical cancer. (Other strains can cause genital warts, which I’m sure is nothing to sneeze at though treatable and not life-threatening.)

    Cervical cancer, though, it pretty rare. Compared to the 6 million people newly infected with HPV each year, there are 12,000 new cases of cervical cancer diagnosed. Apparently almost all of those are caused by HPV, and the strains prevented by Gardasil cause 70%, or 8400. So assuming for the sake of argument (because I don’t know) that half the HPV infections are women, only 0.28% of HPV infections in women in the US result in cervical cancer. (Am I getting this right?) This is complicated by the fact that cervical cancer is very effectively prevented by regular pap smears and follow up.

    These numbers don’t to me call for mandatory vaccinations, even aside from legal questions. It seems to me that the best approach is a strong recommendation of the vaccine at a young age, making the vaccine free or income-based, and continuing to fight for a socialized health care system that makes routine gynecological examinations – including, of course, pap smears, but not limited to them – available to all women. This would ensure the best protection for those whose cervical cancer results from the strains not covered by the vaccine and also for any other conditions prevented through regular gynecological care.

    Am I getting something wrong?

  138. 138
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    One error:

    “So assuming for the sake of argument (because I don’t know) that half the HPV infections are women, only 0.28% of HPV infections in women in the US result in cervical cancer.”

    That should be .4% result; .28% result and can be prevented by the vaccine.

    My head hurts. :)

  139. 139
    slignot

    @SC, HPV viruses can actually result in other rare problems as well, including anal cancers, which obviously strike men and women. It’s one of the reasons it drives me nuts that the vaccine is only recommended for women, as if it’s fine that men have it as well. Why can’t we just say, “Hey look, here’s a virus that does a bunch of bad stuff, including killing lots of women? Let’s inoculate all children to see if we can eliminate it altogether.”

  140. 140
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    @SC, HPV viruses can actually result in other rare problems as well, including anal cancers, which obviously strike men and women.

    I mentioned other problems. If you look at my CDC link, you’ll see that those HPV-caused cancers are extremely rare (far more so than cervical cancer – “2,700 women and 1,500 men who get HPV-associated anal cancer”). Again, I see good cause for a strong recommendation of the vaccine and for available/socialized cancer screening, but those numbers do not to me warrant any mandatory vaccine.

  141. 141
    TheGripester

    Don’t let Jenny Hatch fool you – she’s peddling hate. Now that racism and homophobia are off-limits, doctors, the health care industry, and science in general is the new whipping boy for intolerant crazies.

    This is textbook stuff. A well-organized group of zealots with a political and social agenda finds a cause by which they can rally their troops. The primary motivator is always fear, and is often associated rather sickly with children (like the Satanic panics of the 80′s).

    Right now, most Americans feel it is important to vaccinate, and have a positive attitude towards the benefits of medicine and science, but it is very disturbing that any serious candidate of any party is pandering to these hate groups. Yes, hate groups, because that is what they are. The term “Big Pharma shill” is no less irrational and bigoted as “n—r lover”, which is what they used to shout at me for having a black foster brother and for marching in peace marches as a child.

    Do you see how Hatch frames her arguments? With the words “horror” and “murder” and “death.” Then when people mock her, question her, and scientifically challenge her, she comes back with the claim that she’s a “busy Mom” – you see, that is her dodge. She is a “busy Mom,” with a life filled with more important things than to engage in a debate that she herself starts – even though this is patently absurd considering her voluminous web activities as a blogger with a Twitter account. Finally, when her little passive-aggressive XOXO gets her no sympathy, she shows her true colors – spiteful, demeaning, and confrontational, with little respect even for the more thoughtful protestations to her manufactured data.

    But all of this doesn’t matter. Her posting here on Pharyngula was a pathetic attempt to get attention, and as far as we’re concerned fed the beast of our vituperation, no question there. But please consider what the Jenny Hatches of this world are capable when they get one ounce of real power. If we stupidly or apathetically allow it, then America is headed for “darker” days indeed.

    One last note – her use of the words “Medieval Fascism.” Despite her ignorance of science, I would say on this topic she’s an expert. She certainly is using every tactic that made that particular form of government viable.

    These people represent the new hate groups of the 21st Century. It is time to call it what it is, and stop pretending they are nothing but obnoxious cranks.

  142. 142
    slignot

    @SC, I’m probably less cautious than you in determining when the numbers warrant mandatory vaccination. But if you look at vaccinations against situational diseases like tetanus, the number of cases of tetanus each year probably weren’t super high, but the disease itself is terrible, while the vaccine is safe. Or you could look at polio, which most people survive, but that leaves lasting mobility effects.

    A quick google search for some specifics on mortality on cervical cancer pulled up this page, and it suggests to me it’s enough of a net benefit to try to remove the threat of HPV infection.

    In the U.S. in 2007, 12,280 women in the United States were diagnosed with cervical cancer and 4,021 women in the United States died from cervical cancer. This puts cervical cancer as the 12th most common cancer that women develop, and the 14th most common cause of cancer death for women in the U.S. However, cervical cancer is the 2nd most common cause of cancer death in developing nations, with about 370,000 new cases annually having a 50% mortality rate.

    So if we prevent infections, we have the potential to save somewhere around 2,800 deaths in the U.S. annually [4021 deaths times 70%]. Thinking about lifetime risk of death for women from cervical cancer, that sounds like a pretty significant impact even in the U.S. What I don’t know how to find easily is the number of women rendered sterile in the United States (due to treatment of cancer, obviously), but that seems like a nasty fucking thing to weigh against what seems to be a safe vaccine. How much does this cancer treatment cost them? How many people suffer cervical punch biopsies without anesthesia like Patricia? In the United States where healthcare operates as more a luxury than a common right, and where clinics offering this very screening are being denied funding and face bullying state legislatures, what is the net cost in suffering and lives for poor women with cervical cancer? There is a larger cost to disease than just the terrible reality of its mortality.

    And expanding the potential benefit to developing countries where it’s easier to get a one time vaccination to a woman than a lifetime of annual pap smears, cervical cancer is the second most common cancer with a terrible survivability rate. If we can work globally to eliminate HPV as we have other diseases, we can save the lives of so many women that it seems like an obvious choice.

    I fear that no amount of positive education and encouragement will convince enough parents that they should inoculate their child because their child isn’t having sex or going to have sex. So long as people have the bullshit baggage tied to puritanical shame of sex, our population will be woefully undervaccinated. I think it’s better to add it to the current ranks of other life-saving vaccines for girls and boys to keep people safe.

  143. 143
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    @SC, I’m probably less cautious than you in determining when the numbers warrant mandatory vaccination. But if you look at vaccinations against situational diseases like tetanus, the number of cases of tetanus each year probably weren’t super high, but the disease itself is terrible, while the vaccine is safe. Or you could look at polio, which most people survive, but that leaves lasting mobility effects.

    But the difference is that cervical cancer is, as I said, very effectively prevented by regular pap smears, and regular gynecological exams also screen for other conditions. Further, these aren’t parallel, because the vaccine isn’t for cervical cancer but for HPV, which is not commonly dangerous. Nor do I believe the tetanus vaccine is required. It’s not contagious.

    In the United States where healthcare operates as more a luxury than a common right, and where clinics offering this very screening are being denied funding and face bullying state legislatures, what is the net cost in suffering and lives for poor women with cervical cancer? There is a larger cost to disease than just the terrible reality of its mortality.

    I think you’re misunderstanding me. I’m saying the vaccine should be strongly recommended (although it won’t do anything for 30+% of cases of cervical cancer, so women need pap smears even if they’re vaccinated). My post wasn’t about mortality, but the number of new cases diagnosed each year. I think the vaccine is a very good thing that should be readily/freely available, but putting resources into making it mandatory rather than into investments in women’s – especially poor women’s – health care when it will prevent 8400 cases per year of cervical cancer (not even all cervical cancer, and not other serious conditions that can be dealt with through good gynecological care) doesn’t make sense to me even if there weren’t rights issues involved.

    And expanding the potential benefit to developing countries where it’s easier to get a one time vaccination to a woman than a lifetime of annual pap smears,

    You still need pap smears. 30+% of cases of cervical cancer are not prevented by the vaccine. And women need regular ob-gyn care. But I wasn’t talking about making the vaccine available, free, and recommended in poor countries but about making it mandatory in the US. I think there’s even more reason not to make it mandatory in poor countries where people have few health rights to begin with, and that the same efforts for socialized health care should be made there.

  144. 144
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Also, as I mentioned above, the FDA did not approve it for women over 27. Women over 27 who have not been vaccinated – and that will be millions and millions in the US for the next several years, need regular pap smears even more. Those 8400 cases per year that could be prevented by the vaccine could also be prevented by full gynecological coverage. In any case, arguing for a better direction of attention and resources is not at all the same as arguing against the vaccine. I believe that if it’s strongly recommended and made available for free or affordably, the vast majority of parents and girls will decide to vaccinate.

  145. 145
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    By the way, Merck.

  146. 146
    Bill Dauphin, avec fromage

    SC:

    But the difference is that cervical cancer is, as I said, very effectively prevented by regular pap smears…

    I’m confused: I thought the pap smear was a screening test, no?[1] Isn’t there a distinction to be made between detection and prevention? Even assuming early detection leads to a nearly 100% cure rate (I don’t know that it does; I’m just making the most generous assumption), it’s better to not have cancer than to be a cancer survivor… or at least, so my family’s experience suggests.

    Also, even the non-cancer effects of HPV — genital warts, and the attendant personal/social impacts — can be burdensome, even if they’re not life-threatening. I’m not terribly hard over about making it mandatory, but if we could reduce a virus that currently infects many of us and kills no small number of us (no small number in absolute terms, IMHO, even if it is small in relative terms) to a medical footnote in a few generations by vaccinating, I’m not sure I see the objection, either.

    Certainly, I think we can all agree, the godbothering, sex-negative objections of the Bachmanns and Hatchs of the world are rank bullshit.

    [1] That’s a genuine question, I promise; not aggression cloaked in a question mark.

  147. 147
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    I’m confused: I thought the pap smear was a screening test, no?[1] Isn’t there a distinction to be made between detection and prevention?

    (Didn’t anyone go to my CDC link? :)) In this case, no. The pap smear detects abnormal cell growth, so it’s sort of a “precancerous” test (or at least early enough that it’s easily dealt with). (MDs, please correct me if that’s wrong.) I think full coverage of pap smears would avoid all cervical cancers. And again, the vaccine would only prevent 70%. Additionally, pap smears are part of gynecological examinations that catch other conditions.

    Also, even the non-cancer effects of HPV — genital warts, and the attendant personal/social impacts — can be burdensome, even if they’re not life-threatening. I’m not terribly hard over about making it mandatory, but if we could reduce a virus that currently infects many of us and kills no small number of us (no small number in absolute terms, IMHO, even if it is small in relative terms) to a medical footnote in a few generations by vaccinating, I’m not sure I see the objection, either.

    I don’t have an objection to the vaccine (as far as I can tell, though it’s new and I don’t trust Merck as far as I can throw them). It appears effective for what it does and safe so far. I see no warrant to making this HPV vaccine mandatory, for all of the reasons I’ve mentioned. I’m confused as to why this is not being perceived.

  148. 148
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Certainly, I think we can all agree, the godbothering, sex-negative objections of the Bachmanns and Hatchs of the world are rank bullshit.

    Of course. I can’t for the life of me see what this has to do with anything I’ve said.

  149. 149
    slignot

    SC, some of why I don’t agree is that pap smears merely aid in detection and the treatment still happens, still costs money and can still have devastating effects, such as sterility. So I don’t think it’s any small thing to be able to reduce the odds on those things by preventing lots of the HPV infections that lead to them in the first place. This is becomes more important based on how hard it is to get regular pap smears for detection.

    I believe that if it’s strongly recommended and made available for free or affordably, the vast majority of parents and girls will decide to vaccinate.

    I don’t.

    It’s basically as simple as that. People are so fucked up about STD prevention and testing anyway, let alone having dangerous disease caused by one half the population gets that it isn’t worth the risk to me. Think about it this way: I live in the state run by the LDS church, the same church whose ridiculous approach to things helps create Jenny Hatches. I’ll take all the help from mandatory vaccination lists I can get.

  150. 150
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    CDC:

    Preventing Cervical Cancer: There are two vaccines (Cervarix and Gardasil) that can protect women against most cervical cancers (see above). Cervical cancer can also be prevented with routine cervical cancer screening and follow-up of abnormal results. The Pap test can find abnormal cells on the cervix so that they can be removed before cancer develops. An HPV DNA test, which can find HPV on a woman’s cervix, may also be used with a Pap test in certain cases. Even women who got the vaccine when they were younger need regular cervical cancer screening because the vaccine protects against most, but not all, cervical cancers.

  151. 151
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    SC, some of why I don’t agree is that pap smears merely aid in detection and the treatment still happens, still costs money and can still have devastating effects, such as sterility.

    You’re ignoring like 90% of what I’ve written.

    So I don’t think it’s any small thing to be able to reduce the odds on those things by preventing lots of the HPV infections that lead to them in the first place. This is becomes more important based on how hard it is to get regular pap smears for detection.

    I give up.

    I don’t.

    Well, it’s an empirical question, but I suspect I’m right. Anyway, the group of people protected from some cervical cancer by the vaccine does not include me but the group of women who can potentially* get regular gynecological exams does.

    It’s basically as simple as that. People are so fucked up about STD prevention and testing anyway, let alone having dangerous disease caused by one half the population gets that it isn’t worth the risk to me.

    What risk to you?

    Think about it this way: I live in the state run by the LDS church, the same church whose ridiculous approach to things helps create Jenny Hatches. I’ll take all the help from mandatory vaccination lists I can get.

    You’re not the one being forced to get the vaccine. And the number of HPV-caused cases of vaccine-preventable cervical cancer in your state per year has to be very small if the national figure is 8400. But you think compulsory vaccination of millions of young girls is a better project than public education and the fight for poor women to get regular exams and care.

    *This will not be available to me a couple of weeks from now.

  152. 152
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Utah:

    2004-8 average incidence per year of cervical cancer: 60
    2003-7 average deaths: 16

  153. 153
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    2004-8 average incidence per year of cervical cancer: 60

    A maximum of 42 of which could be prevented by the vaccine. I do not think that warrants the compulsory vaccination of millions of girls. I think it warrants what I recommended in my first post about this.

  154. 154
    David Marjanović, OM
    Mind control sounds a lot easier to me than frigging earthquake control.

    Toward the end of his life, Tesla believed that he could split the world in two with the correct resonant frequency. *shrug* Sounds easier to me than trying to manipulate brainwaves or some shit.

    Point taken, but that’s neither earthquake nor control!

  155. 155
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    I’m not terribly hard over about making it mandatory, but…I’m not sure I see the objection, either.

    Well, I think mandatory* measures (particularly those involving children and new products pushed by corporations for profit) should be limited to extreme public health situations that cannot be addressed in any other way. That is far from the case here. (In fact, some of the comments above suggest that there’s a very real risk of women thinking that if they’re vaccinated they don’t need pap smears or regular gynecological exams, and of people not continuing to fight for this care….) I’m surprised to see you on a different page here.

    *(as opposed to free/affordable measures and education and advice)

  156. 156
    Charlie Foxtrot

    (Raven) A century ago, the average lifespan in the USA was 47. We’ve gained an extra 30 years thanks to science.

    but… but… that is an extra 30 years spent away from the ever-santa-lovin embrace of jeebus!
    How can that be a good thing!?

  157. 157
    Bill Dauphin, avec fromage

    SC:

    The pap smear detects abnormal cell growth, so it’s sort of a “precancerous” test (or at least early enough that it’s easily dealt with). … I think full coverage of pap smears would avoid all cervical cancers. And again, the vaccine would only prevent 70%. Additionally, pap smears are part of gynecological examinations that catch other conditions.

    I’m certainly not suggesting a tradeoff between Gardasil and pap smears: If I had my way, every woman would get regular pap smears and everybody would get Gardasil, all for “free” under universal publicly funded healthcare coverage. (And yes, I think the combination of operational efficiencies and improved overall health under universal coverage will more than make up for the costs of vastly expanded preventive and screening care. If it doesn’t, we’ll just tax Warren Buffett to make up the diff.)

    In general, I have a preference for true prevention rather than detection+treatment, even if the detection is early and the treatment nearly universally effective… but I really don’t pretend to know the right answer in this particular instance… hence my footnote about my question really being a question.

    I don’t have an objection to the vaccine…. It appears effective for what it does and safe so far. I see no warrant to making this HPV vaccine mandatory, for all of the reasons I’ve mentioned. I’m confused as to why this is not being perceived.

    I’m confused as to why you think it’s not being perceived: I wasn’t failing to understand your point. For that matter, I wasn’t even disagreeing with it; merely saying I wasn’t sure quite yet whether I did agree. I grok neither of us thinks Gardasil is a bad thing per se; I’m not yet sure I agree with you that making it mandatory is bad public policy (but I’m also not sure I don’t). I entered the conversation as a kicker-around-of-ideas; not as a committed advocate.

    Well, I think mandatory measures (particularly those involving children and new products pushed by corporations for profit) should be limited to extreme public health situations that cannot be addressed in any other way…. I’m surprised to see you on a different page here.

    Again, I’m not really on a page; more like idly flipping through the Table of Contents. That said, I’m a liberal, not a libertarian: I have no philosophical objection to mandatory regulation of public health matters, and the concept of mandatory vaccinations is well established in our society.

    I get that you’re suggesting there are other ways to address cervical cancer, and (to loosely paraphrase Cat Stevens) if you’re right, I (might) agree. OTOH, I wonder if minimizing or eradicating HPV (at least the affected strains) might not be a valid goal in its own right. And my (admittedly fairly untutored) understanding is that, as public health measures (as opposed to on an individual basis), vaccines work much better when most of the public gets them. Given the fractious herd of cats that is the U.S. public, that argues for at least some regulatory incentives, if not a mandatory regime.

    Certainly, I think we can all agree, the godbothering, sex-negative objections of the Bachmanns and Hatchs of the world are rank bullshit.

    Of course. I can’t for the life of me see what this has to do with anything I’ve said.

    Actually, it was simply my attempt to end my comment on a note of unambiguous agreement. Guess I screwed that pooch, eh?

  158. 158
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    In general, I have a preference for true prevention rather than detection+treatment, even if the detection is early and the treatment nearly universally effective…

    Except that, as I’ve pointed out, full vaccination coverage in this case (millions of young people) would prevent only 70% maximum of (the relatively small number of) cases of cervical cancer. Regular pap smears would potentially prevent all of them (and of course they’re a tiny percentage of the HPV infections), and in addition are connected to regular exams that address other serious conditions. Moreover, they’re not mutually exclusive. This is about mandatory measures and where attention should be put for the best consequences overall. From my first post, I’ve said that I think the vaccine should be available, affordable, and recommended.

    I’m confused as to why you think it’s not being perceived:

    Sorry. I was responding to your comments in the context of others’, and it’s seemed like people are suggesting that it’s one or the other.

    and the concept of mandatory vaccinations is well established in our society.

    Not really. There’s a problematic history there, and semi-mandatory vaccinations involve highly contagious diseases (I think a good argument can be made for their being fully mandatory, but that’s a different discussion).

    OTOH, I wonder if minimizing or eradicating HPV (at least the affected strains) might not be a valid goal in its own right.

    Sure. But if it is that, a valid goal is by no means an emergency. I don’t think it is or should be accepted practice to mandate children taking new vaccines (produced by untrustworthy corporations, no less) to achieve a goal that’s desirable but in no way urgent. It’s far less urgent than getting regular ob-gyn care to girls and women, which would address cervical cancer and many other problems. I really doubt you’d support similar compulsory measures in other similar situations.

  159. 159
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    I get that you’re suggesting there are other ways to address cervical cancer, and (to loosely paraphrase Cat Stevens) if you’re right, I (might) agree.

    But of course I’m right. The record of pap smears in addressing cervical cancer is very clear. They address all abnormal cervical cell growth, and therefore 100% of potential cancers. Even people who can be vaccinated (women under 27) still need them. But again, HPV vaccines and pap smears are not mutually exclusive.

  160. 160
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Sorry – just one more thing and then I’ll try to leave this alone.

    And expanding the potential benefit to developing countries where it’s easier to get a one time vaccination to a woman than a lifetime of annual pap smears,

    In addition to the big problems with this that I pointed to above, it should be noted that the length of effectiveness of the HPV vaccine is unknown. It’s impossible to know beyond four years because it’s still new.* As I said above, the FDA didn’t find sufficient evidence of effectiveness to approve it for women over 26. I have no idea what this would mean, if anything, in terms of boosters for women over 26 in the case that effectiveness wears off. This seems important given that the mean (and median) age for newly diagnosed cases seems to be 47 or 48.

    *This is also true of the long-term risks, which is no small matter especially when people are suggesting that it be made mandatory.

  161. 161
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Sorry again, but I’m angry (though not surprised). Jerry Coyne linked to erv‘s post about this in addition to Orac’s. In her comment thread, Abbie claims:

    Ken– The HPV vaccines are 100% effective at preventing cervical cancer in women.

    She then repeats the “virtually 100% effective” claim below. This is patently false. Gardasil is almost 100% effective (for at least 4-6 years, beyond which they don’t know, but it doesn’t appear to decline at least during that time from what I’ve read) against the strains that cause 70% of cervical cancers. Her claim, from a person who does public education about vaccines, is totally irresponsible.

    ***

    Also, I’m finding different mean ages and age groups for first diagnosis, ranging from late 20s to late 40s in different places, but my point in my previous post stands.

  162. 162
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Aw, how sweet – a trackback from Jenny Hatch. (A hatchback?)

  163. 163
    David Marjanović, OM

    Aw, how sweet – a trackback from Jenny Hatch.

    If I hadn’t just laughed about something unrelated, I’d probably laugh for half a minute now.

  164. 164
    Kat

    Has anyone seen the Information Is Beautiful data graphic on HPV? The author of these visualizations shares his data sources you can check on where he is getting the numbers. It is pretty great; informative and easy to read: http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/2009/how-safe-is-the-hpv-vaccine/

  165. 165
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    A hatchback?

    *Hand glass of favorite swill to SC, raises tankard of grog in salute*

  166. 166
    Ichthyic

    Nope, none of that at my house, or on my blog. It is all just one big delusional paranoid fantasy of sovereign family living ahd empowered self reliance…

    and hearts powered by infinite energy machines…

  167. 167
    Ichthyic

    HUGE Profanity alert if you decide to go wading into comment section

    ah, thanks for the plug, Jenny.

    yours truly,

    us.

    p.s. porcupines…sideways… etc.

  168. 168
    Ichthyic

    She then repeats the “virtually 100% effective” claim below. This is patently false.

    aside from the lack of data, it also implies that the ONLY cause of cervical cancer is HPV.

    Now, I’m not an oncologist, but that seems unlikely to me.

    anyone confirm?

  169. 169
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Has anyone seen the Information Is Beautiful data graphic on HPV? The author of these visualizations shares his data sources you can check on where he is getting the numbers. It is pretty great; informative and easy to read:

    The New York Times article from 2008 they link to is very good.

  170. 170
    Ichthyic

    against the strains that cause 70% of cervical cancers

    ah, right.

    as an aside, to answer my previous question:

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ijc.21731/abstract;jsessionid=C96C8BCE3FE87ECC318764758B162CBB.d01t01

    apparently, there is good correlative and causative evidence to suggest that indeed cervical cancer is entirely 100% associated with various strains of HPV.

    Is it fair to say then:

    -Gardisil is very likely to prevent cervical cancer, by inoculating against the vast majority (around 70%) of prevalent HPV strains out there.
    -It’s possible that periodic re-inoculations would be advised, until we know just how long the immune system stays defended against HPV by the first inoculation.

  171. 171
    Inaji

    Audley:

    1) I have three sisters. All four of us have received vaccinations* and NONE!** of us have autism. So, you’ve proven absolutely nothing.

    2) Isn’t the goal for Mormon women seven children? Better crank out another couple of kids while you still can or no heaven for you!

    Heh. Mister grew up Mormon, first of Eight kids. All of them were vaccinated, none autistic. A portion of his siblings have bred like rabbits good mormons, all those sprogs, vaccinated. None autistic.

    Me? Vaccinated, not autistic. I am eccentric though. I’m pretty sure that’s not down to the vaccines. ;D

  172. 172
    Ichthyic

    it’s easier to get a one time vaccination to a woman than a lifetime of annual pap smears

    isn’t another problem with this that Gyns don’t recommend annual pap smears JUST to test for cervical cancer?

  173. 173
    Ichthyic

    Additionally, pap smears are part of gynecological examinations that catch other conditions.

    sorry, my laziness is catching up with me.

    already addressed I now see.

  174. 174
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    The concentrated arrogance of ignorance at Jenny Hatch’s blog is stunning.

  175. 175
    The Pint

    HUGE Profanity alert if you decide to go wading into comment section.

    I wonder if she realizes that might actually end up drawing more people to reading this thread than putting them off it.

    Oh, wait. That would imply she has the ability to reason logically. My bad.

    And she thinks this thread qualifies as “HUGE profanity”?? Pardon me a moment.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

    I mean jeez, it’s not like you guys were even trying at all. ;)

  176. 176
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Ichthyic, I wrote a response to your first question, but for some reason it didn’t go through. Yeah, it appears to be a necessary factor in all cervical cancers, surprisingly enough. The vaccine, under the right circumstances (no prior exposure to HPV) and for as long as it lasts, seems to be almost fully effective in preventing the two strains that cause 70% of cervical cancers. One of the dangers of aggressive vaccine efforts that don’t focus on education is that they’ll lead people who’ve had the vaccine to mistakenly think they’re 100% protected and to be less likely to go for screenings when they’re older; that’s why Abbie’s remark was so irresponsible.

    Pap tests are for cervical pre-cancer (caused by all strains of HPV).* Recommendations differ, but from what I’ve read they seem to be best focused on women between 25 or 30 and 50 and to not be necessary every year except in special cases. (I honestly don’t know what the current US recommendations are, so don’t quote me.) They’re very effective (and totally convenient since you can get them at your neighborhood Walgreen’s :P). They’re also part of gynecological exams (a lot of people will go primarily because they know they should get one) that deal with several other issues important to women’s health.

    *There are other kinds of tests as well.

  177. 177
    Ichthyic

    I mean jeez

    Shame on you for using such HUGE profanity!

  178. 178
    Ichthyic

    thanks for the summary, SC.

    alles klar.

  179. 179
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Shame on you for using such HUGE profanity!

    Profanity???? Where???? This has been absolutely civil, except for us not swallowing the Hatch idiocy unquestioned.

  180. 180
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    The concentrated arrogance of ignorance at Jenny Hatch’s blog is stunning.

    It really is a hub of stupidity. I was laughing (I’d love to know more about how she managed to get ejected by the Fr**pers) until I thought about them raising all of those kids with those ideas. Sigh.

  181. 181
    Ichthyic

    NoR…

    Satire:

    u failz it.

    ;)

  182. 182
    Ichthyic

    It really is a hub of stupidity.

    and irresponsible fear mongering.

    a perfect example of which is right at the top of her current post!

    http://naturalfamilyblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/gardasil-cartoon.jpg?w=640&h=392&crop=1

    that cartoon is fear mongering, defined!

  183. 183
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    NoR…

    Satire:

    u failz it.

    What??? Where’s the memo???
    *checks under desk, finds paper with small beak marks on it*
    Sorry…

  184. 184
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    It really is a hub of stupidity.

    She’s a stupid magnet in the vein of woo magnets.

    She hits on nearly every conspiracy and stupidty topic possible, sucking them up like a magical sponge endowed with the amplified power of dumb.

  185. 185
    Ichthyic

    amplified power of dumb

    can i get that in an energy beverage?

  186. 186
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    (A hatchback?)

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Holy shit that was good.

  187. 187
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    You lot waiting for a paycheck from Merck are all deluded fools! Lord Draconis Zeneca and Lady Astra of the Imperial Glaxxon Corpus will have you for lunch. Or feed you to the hatchlings, if Ms Hatch doesn’t fill them up enough.

    It’s not too late to cast off your misguided loyalties and join us, though. I became a Minion less than two years ago, and Lord Zeneca has already promoted me to Pharma Shill!

  188. 188
    Amphiox

    I’m with SC on the issue of mandatory vaccination.

    It never justified, no matter what the reason, to make a medical procedure, no matter how benign, universally mandated. (And it would be impossible to fully enforce, anyways).

    You persuade people to choose it voluntarily, and you should ensure that it is universally available. But you should not compel.

    It’s doubtful that even universal access to regular pap smears would prevent all cervical cancer, either, though. No matter how good your screening procedure, there will always be some false negatives, some extremely aggressive diseases that appear between screenings, and some people who choose not to, or forget to, follow-up on regular screenings.

    And making pap smears mandatory is the same issue as making vaccination mandatory (which you couldn’t enforce anyways).

  189. 189
    Ichthyic

    I became a Minion less than two years ago, and Lord Zeneca has already promoted me to Pharma Shill!

    yeah, but is there a union?

    I want some way to collectively bargain for shill dollars.

  190. 190
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    Bugger. Link borked. It’s His Lordship’s FB, btw.

    Lord Draconis Zeneca, Forward Mavoon of the Great Fleet, Suzerain of V’tar, Subjugator Magna and Imperator of Terra is totally down with the local primate social media. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001957904048

  191. 191
    Ichthyic

    You persuade people to choose it voluntarily, and you should ensure that it is universally available. But you should not compel.

    no.

    this is the ideal, and in a perfect world, it would work.

    this is far from a perfect world, and what you have just argued is support for dismissing the basis for all laws and penal codes.

    sorry, but surely you can see this is a utilitarian fail?

  192. 192
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    And meanwhile, back on earth, pap smears do NOT prevent cancer. They detect. They enable early intervention, and thereby prevent death, so of course they are a Good Thing ™. Just not a preventative.

  193. 193
    Ichthyic

    I’m with SC on the issue of mandatory vaccination.

    btw, I missed this somewhere, can you link to the post where she says mandatory vaccination is a bad idea?

    And making pap smears mandatory is the same issue as making vaccination mandatory (which you couldn’t enforce anyways).

    nope, those are not the same. Vaccines are also to help prevent transmission (by preventing initial infection), while pap smears check for already existing conditions.

    it’s like saying that a regular physical is the same as smallpox vaccination.

    I’d also argue you can enforce vaccinations quite effectively, by linking it to public services. We already do for most other vaccinations, for example, as you can’t go to public school without them.

    now, I expect you will come back with private school as circumvention.

    If you do, think about what that really means.

    this is not a perfect world, and in your idealism, you would ask us to abandon letting my kid risk infection because you think it should always be a choice. Sorry, but no.

    How, on earth, can you say that in the very face of what this blog represents?

    How on earth can you say that in the face of how religion affects how we teach science in this country?

    how is what you are saying any different than saying:

    “Teach the controversy”

    ?

  194. 194
    Ichthyic

    you would ask us to abandon letting let my kid risk infection

    that’s a bit better.

    ugh.

  195. 195
    Ichthyic

    in fact, in 159, SC states:

    I think a good argument can be made for their being fully mandatory

    in reference to vaccines involved in more historically well known cases of communicable and dangerous diseases.

  196. 196
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    It never justified, no matter what the reason, to make a medical procedure, no matter how benign, universally mandated. (And it would be impossible to fully enforce, anyways).

    Well, as I said above, I’m fairly open to the idea of mandatory vaccination for some of the childhood diseases. Those vaccines are quite different from Gardasil in a number of ways. I think some mandatory public health measures, especially when it comes to contagious diseases, are justifiable, but that is a hard case to make.

    (It’s actually my only problem with Camus’ The Plague, which I otherwise loved – the political analogy doesn’t hold up in this sense.)

    It’s doubtful that even universal access to regular pap smears would prevent all cervical cancer, either, though. No matter how good your screening procedure, there will always be some false negatives, some extremely aggressive diseases that appear between screenings, and some people who choose not to, or forget to, follow-up on regular screenings.

    Well, you can’t make every single person follow up. But from what I’ve read the small number of cases in places they’re widely available are in people who haven’t gotten them, haven’t gotten them in many years, or did not follow up (most probably not really by choice). There can be false negatives, but it’s a slow-moving cancer so if people are getting them every few years it should be caught. I think even a coverage of 70+% will reduce cases to very small numbers – look at Finland. In any case, the vaccine doesn’t prevent the strains that cause 30% of cervical cancer, so even with 100% vaccine coverage people would still need the screening.

    And making pap smears mandatory is the same issue as making vaccination mandatory (which you couldn’t enforce anyways).

    I would never argue for that. I think they (and other tests and procedures) should be available and free, and combined with health education and encouragement of regular exams.

    ***

    btw, I missed this somewhere, can you link to the post where she says mandatory vaccination is a bad idea?

    I’ve said mandatory HPV vaccination is unacceptable.

    ***

    And meanwhile, back on earth, pap smears do NOT prevent cancer. They detect. They enable early intervention, and thereby prevent death, so of course they are a Good Thing ™. Just not a preventative.

    From what I’ve cited above, this appears to be wrong. All of the language I’ve seen considers Pap tests a preventative measure because they screen for abnormal cells/lesions which may or may not be pre-cancerous. Removing these prevents invasive cancer. That’s a preventative measure, and that’s how the CDC describes it.

    I can see this is going to be another case in which my earlier comments and links are invisible to those more interested in being snarky than in rational discussion, so this might be my only response to you.

  197. 197
    Ichthyic

    I’ve said mandatory HPV vaccination is unacceptable.

    hopefully not for the same reasons Amphiox lists?

    here, to clarify, do you agree with this statement:

    It never justified, no matter what the reason, to make a medical procedure, no matter how benign, universally mandated. (And it would be impossible to fully enforce, anyways).

    because I find that pure Kantian, and myself being utilitarian, not only deem it idealistic, but nearly irrational given the reality of the world we live in.

    We, ALL OF US, continually balance freedom vs security. it is impossible not too.

  198. 198
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    I hate to link to this because it was a total loon at RI who pointed to it, but it squares with what I’ve read. It’s from before the vaccine was introduced. Those few thousand deaths (perhaps minus a small number) from cervical each year in the US could be prevented through better screening, and this would be connected to addressing other women’s health disparities.

  199. 199
    Ichthyic

    Those few thousand deaths (perhaps minus a small number) from cervical each year in the US could be prevented through better screening, and this would be connected to addressing other women’s health disparities.

    yes, but there is a separate issue with HPV itself.

    it is a communicable virus, and doesn’t just affect women.

    somehow, I don’t think getting regular pap smears will do much for the menfolk.

    :)

  200. 200
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    here, to clarify, do you agree with this statement:

    If I did, I wouldn’t’ve said what I just did about other vaccines. :)

  201. 201
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    yes, but there is a separate issue with HPV itself.

    it is a communicable virus, and doesn’t just affect women.

    somehow, I don’t think getting regular pap smears will do much for the menfolk.

    Dude, see my post and link @ #138.

  202. 202
    Jenny Hatch

    HATCHBACK?

    Puleeese. Gotta be something cooler than Hatchback.

    For the dude who wanted to know why I was banned from Free Republic last month. This post contains a short explanation at the end: http://jennyhatch.com/2011/08/17/economic-congruency-ayn-rand-points-to-the-logical-next-step-of-obamas-financial-policies/

    Ya’ll are kinda nice and thoughtful people, a little bit potty mouthed, but overall, where else could I go after being permanently banned from Mothering Mag Discussions and Free Republic?

    Nobody likes me, sniff sniff…

    Even the atheists think I should be sterilized and my children put in a reeducation camp…

    Whatever shall I do?

    Jenny Hatch

    PS For the folks from the ex mormon site who were asking WHO in their midst wanted to try to “take me out” on this blog….come on over to The Natural Family Blog. LOVE to chat with people from all over the healthcare and religion spectrum. We could make a batch of popcorn, sit a while and chat…about life, and the pursuit of happyness.

  203. 203
    myeck waters

    *Yawn*

    Still nothing of substance to day then?

  204. 204
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Jenny what sized tinfoil hat do you wear?

    You’re easily one of the most willfully ignorant and gullible people I’ve ever come across on the internet.

    You’re blog reads like a how to and who’s who of wingnut conspiracy anti-intellectualism.

    Seriously, you’re pretty funny, in a point at the disaster kind of way.

  205. 205
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    your blog…. sigh

  206. 206
    Jenny Hatch

    I have been debating vaccines on the web since I first showed up on the internet 14 years ago.

    The conversations typically run the way this comment section has. Personal attacks against me and my family, calls for me to be sterilized, children removed from my care, and worse.

    Repeated requests for scientific information that does not exist, (no one has the money to even attempt to conduct a double blind placebo study the way the pharma companies can and no “peer” exists to review it).

    So instead of wasting my time typing attempting to share facts, I usually just do what I did here which was to sarcastically respond to the personal attacks and make a plea for parental rights by sharing pictures of my family and evidence that they are in fact alive and do exist. Quite often people accuse me of not being a Mom etc…

    My son Jeff had whooping cough when he was two during an outbreak here in Colorado. Most of the children who caught it had already been vaccinated for it. This is the biggest issue for me. Vaccines give parents a false sense of security.

    I believe because I breastfed him until he was three and effectively used oregano oil as treatment he was cured of the disease just as effectively as those who used allopathy. Those educated with the mountain of literature that exists on the benefits of mothers milk to immunity know that it is a completely appropriate place to put ones trust. As for the power of essential oils, if you have not tried them during an illness, get a bottle of young livings oregano and feel the magic during your next cold.

    If oediatricians bullied parents into breastfeeding the way they shove vaccines we could have a true health revolution in America.

    I simply demand my parental rights to make life or death health care choices for my children until they are old enough to make those choices for themselves.

    I really don’t have much else to say, if you don’t like my blog or me, or my family just because we choose to live another lifestyle, and if you think we are somwhow a threat to you or your family or society, I can’t do anything to change that. But it should be abundantly clear by now that we have not made important health care decisions because of what everyone else is doing.

    Jen

  207. 207
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Yawn, Jenny, your overly long anecdotes do not equal evidence. Evidence requires large numbers of people, controls, and statistical findings. You have none. Another wasted boring post without scientific citations. Come back with real scientific evidence, or don’t come back. You offer nothing to the discussion, just inane and insipid ramblings of a shallow and unintelligent thinker.

  208. 208
    Matt Penfold

    I simply demand my parental rights to make life or death health care choices for my children until they are old enough to make those choices for themselves.

    Providing you ensure your children are totally isolated from the rest of society I see no problem with that.

  209. 209
    John Morales

    Jenny:

    I simply demand my parental rights to make life or death health care choices for my children until they are old enough to make those choices for themselves.

    You forgot to append the rest of what you simply demand:

    ‘even when such choices increase the risk to my children and are counter-indicated by evidence-based medicine.

    (You obviously care more about your choice than about their health)

    if you think we are somwhow a threat to you or your family or society

    There is no “if” or “somehow” there; you might try to educate yourself and read up on community immunity.

    What you’ve done is leech on those who are responsible parents.

    (Not something about which to be proud)

  210. 210
    KG

    if you think we are somwhow a threat to you or your family or society, I can’t do anything to change that – Jenny

    Yes you can: you can educate yourself, then do the responsible thing by having your children vaccinated, and publicly recanting your stupid and irresponsible public statements.

  211. 211
    Jenny Hatch

    Beating my head against the monitor….

    If I can’t use anecdotes to make my case, I have NOTHING because no group of parents can afford to counter pharma companies money, power, and authority.

    All we have is our anecdotes, and I have read up on EVERYTHING I know all of the arguments, all of the issues, and I still choose to protect my children from intoxication from useless vaccines.

    I will never publicly recant, will never allow them to be poisoned, and will go to prison before subjecting them to a fate worse than death by filling up their bodies and minds with a toxic syringe full of death and disability.

    As for isolation, my children have much more to fear from other children shedding toxic live viruses for the ten days after they are innoculated than any child has to fear from my robustly healthy specimens of humanity.

    And this is exactly the place where it is truly time for me to leave. Happy Trails…

  212. 212
    'Tis Himself

    For the dude who wanted to know why I was banned from Free Republic last month.

    Being banned from the FREEP is easy. I managed to do it with just two posts. Just ask questions the wingnuts aren’t willing to answer.

  213. 213
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I have NOTHING

    Correct, you have nothing. You aren’t smart, you aren’t scientific, you don’t understand the science. Vaccines are one of the cheapest public health means available, along with treated drinking water and sewage treatment, to make everybody safe and keep diseases at bay. You are too stubborn to see that. You have nothing to offer a science based blog, which requires science, not inane opinion.

  214. 214
    'Tis Himself

    If I can’t use anecdotes to make my case, I have NOTHING

    Truer words were never written. You have NOTHING! You have your prejudices against “Big Pharma” and your lack of evidence to support those prejudices. And that’s what your irrational hatred of vaccinations is based on, your prejudices.

    Now I know you’re feeling all miffed because I labeled your irrational hatred of vaccines an “irrational hatred.” In your mind, you’ve got oodles of anecdotes and dozens of testimonies from people like Jenny McCarthy (someone whose two claims to fame are lying about vaccines and taking her clothes off) and Andrew Wakefield (whose license to practice medicine was revoked because of his lies) to support this irrational hatred. But rational reasons for your hatred? Those are lacking.

    Incidentally, it wasn’t thinking pure thoughts and eating lots of leafy green vegetables which eradicated small pox from the Earth. It was vaccines. The same could almost be said about polio, except that people like you, with an irrational hatred of vaccines, are giving polio the opportunity to cripple and kill people, mainly children, in the 21st Century. Aren’t you proud of yourself?

  215. 215
    Matt Penfold

    If I can’t use anecdotes to make my case, I have NOTHING because no group of parents can afford to counter pharma companies money, power, and authority.

    Finally some honesty from you. Pity it was not accomponied by an apology, but I suppose that was to much to ask.

    Still, at least you have admitted you are not honest. All you need to do is remember you have nothing, and thus has nothing worth saying.

    I trust you will refrain in future from repeating the silly things you have said here.

  216. 216
    David Marjanović, OM

    My son Jeff had whooping cough when he was two during an outbreak here in Colorado. Most of the children who caught it had already been vaccinated for it. This is the biggest issue for me. Vaccines give parents a false sense of security.

    I had whooping cough when I was 10. I was vaccinated – therefore I only got a light form of it: after just a week or so of having to stay at home, I only ran out of breath after running, and it soon ended all on its own. Without oregano oil or any other placebo.

    BTW, most vaccines do not contain live viruses. For crying out loud.

  217. 217
    anteprepro

    Moron still doesn’t understand how statistics work, and throws science out the window due to the specter of Big Pharma. Ignorant, arrogant, anti-science conspiracy theorist doing what she does best: imagine threats when she is merely being called stupid, and imagine cogent arguments when she all she is uttering abandons any attempt at logic or evidence.

    Here’s two protips, Jenny:
    1. No-one here called for you to be sterilized, you intractable fuckwit. Stop pretending that you are being threatened when you are not. Your delusion coloring our arguments doesn’t transform what we have actually said into what you imagine we have said. Please give the relevant quotes if you believe that someone actually threatened you, and they will be reprimanded if you are actually right. But you seem dead-set on being wrong about everything you say, so I doubt you are right.
    2. Admitting that you only have anecdotes is admitting that you don’t have any sound basis for your very loud beliefs about what vaccines actually do. Which makes you nothing but a deluded scaremonger and an insufferable moron, because there are scientific studies on the issue, and they clearly disagree with your illogical interpretation of what little “evidence” you can actually muster.

  218. 218
    Carbon Based Life Form

    This is most of something I wrote in the matching thread on SB:

    Vaccines are proven to prevent diseases. Smallpox has been eradicated. In 1950, there were 58,000 cases of polio in the U.S. alone; in 2009 there were 1,606 in the entire world, all in Nigeria, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Since 2000, there have been three reported cases of diphtheria in the U.S. All of this is due to vaccination.

  219. 219
    Jenny Hatch

    Anterprepo,

    So very, very sorry for my mistake inmplying that anyone posting at this enlightened deep well of scientific bodaciousness would ever in a trillion years imply, infer, or suggest that I be sterilized and have my children taken away.

    It was this site where the unthinkable occurred: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,295875,295922

    In the mad dash to respond to this site between weekend soccer games and UNDOUBTEDLY because my brain is suffering from a lack of nutrients and all that other “good stuff” that all ye enlightened nobles regularly blast into your brains from yearly flu shots (ya know, Aluminum, polysorbate 80, Squalene… etc etc) I inadverdently and without malice mixed up the messaging of the two sites…

    Hanging my head in deep and neverending shame.

    The idea or thought that anyone at this site could ever even think of using a personal attack as a debate skill when science, facts, and Big Pharma profit streams are on the line…I feel nauseated and faint at my own defensiveness and attempt to “stick up for myself” on this site.

    Slinking my soul in self recrimination and quietly backing away while whispering “not worthy, not worthy”,

    I skip back to The Natural Family Blog where we are talking about conceiving baby number six.

    Fare thee well O ye enlightened purveyors of science, truth, and BALDERDASH.

    Jenny

  220. 220
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Fare thee well O ye enlightened purveyors of science, truth

    That is correct Jenny, the only BALDERDASH comes from your unscientific, inane, and unintelligent ramblings of a well deluded fool.

  221. 221
    Carbon Based Life Form

    Aw, poor Jenny. She is so miffed that people disagree with her when she posts crapola. Be of good cheer, Jenny. There are plenty of other Mormons who believe the same idiocies that you do.

  222. 222
    Mr. Fire

    I will never publicly recant, will never allow them to be poisoned, and will go to prison before subjecting them to a fate worse than death by filling up their bodies and minds with a toxic syringe full of death and disability.

    Whoa.

    The full-throated primal scream of the wide-eyed lunatic.

    all that other “good stuff” that all ye enlightened nobles regularly blast into your brains from yearly flu shots (ya know, Aluminum, polysorbate 80, Squalene… etc etc)

    How many times and in how many forms does it need to be communicated to you that these additives in the concentrations typically present in vaccines have been shown to pose no real danger?

  223. 223
    TotalRetard

    I’m afraid Orac is wrong. HPV vaccine does cause mental retardation — in politicians.

  224. 224
    Jenny Hatch

    For your enlightenment and education:

    http://healthfreedoms.org/2011/09/27/door-to-door-surprise-vaccinations-in-ca-district/

    Door-To-Door Surprise Vaccinations In CA District

    A school district in California took a healthcare employee with a news crew around to make sure all the kids had their vaccinations. You can see in the video they applied pressure to parents to vaccinate the children on the spot. A mother told the worker to “Get the f— out!”

    They chose to do this right in the middle of the district’s budget crisis. And guess who doesn’t vaccinate his kids? See the video below.

    Remember the article about Malawai children being vaccinated at gunpoint? That started with “health surveillance assistants” going into town and door-to-door. Think it can’t happen here?

    ~Health Freedoms

    California District Is Doing Unannounced Door-to-Door Vaccines
    The Natomas Unified School District in Sacramento, California is in financial trouble.* They’ve cut teacher salaries. Employees are being forced to take time off without pay. Class sizes are getting bigger and bigger. But when it comes to vaccinations, the sky’s the limit. The district is now doing door-to-door vaccinations. Unannounced. And they’ve taken a news crew around with them. Here’s a video showing it:

    Could it possibly be more clear that our children are being handed over to Big Pharma as a profit center? Parents who make the intelligent choice not to vaccinate their children are subjected to humiliation and intimidation. Their children may be prevented from going to school. The news media acts as cheerleader and propagandist.

    Parents are pressured. Not shown in the video is that they aren’t provided information about their right to opt out. If they choose to opt out, they aren’t given the exemption forms. No information is given about risks associated with the vaccine.

    The vaccination in question is Tdap (tetanus, diphtheria, and acellular pertussis), and is one of the most questionable. The pertussis portion provides no protection against the new outbreaks of whooping cough, and is actually responsible for causing the new more virulent, 10 times as deadly, strain.

    April Boden, who provided the information about this travesty, has written a letter of protest that delineates the California statute clearly stating that vaccines may not be mandated, and asks anyone and everyone to copy, paste, and send it. Here’s the letter, followed by addresses:

    To Whom It May Concern,

    After viewing the news report on how your school district decided to go door to door asking parents to vaccinate their children with Tdap in their homes, I grew concerned about your school’s knowledge of students’ and parents’ rights. I wonder if, instead of leaping to an assumption that the parents are experiencing different “family situations”, they may be having concerns over the safety and efficacy of the vaccine itself. It has certainly been all over the news that there is a Whooping Cough/Pertussis outbreak in California; however, very little is addressed about the fact that nearly all of those who contracted the disease had neither been fully vaccinated for it nor that California itself has one of the highest vaccination rates for Tdap in the country. Any parent informed of this may question the logic of yet another mandate on their child in order to attend school. Would it not be more appropriate to to offer them the exemption form Cdph 8261 as required in lieu of vaccination? Particularly given that it is their right to seek exemption on grounds of Personal Beliefs, and furthermore, in light of the information about the questionable efficacy of the vaccine. Find the a link to the CNN article that addresses this below. The law for vaccine mandate states as follows:

    “120365. Immunization of a person shall not be required for admission to a school or other institution listed in Section 120335 if the parent or guardian or adult who has assumed responsibility for his or her care and custody in the case of a minor, or the person seeking admission if an emancipated minor, files with the governing authority a letter or affidavit stating that the immunization is contrary to his or her beliefs. However, whenever there is good cause to believe that the person has been exposed to one of the communicable diseases listed in subdivision (a) of Section 120325, that person may be temporarily excluded from the school or institution until the local health officer is satisfied that the person is no longer at risk of developing the disease.”

    Was this information fully disclosed to the parents and was a vaccine exemption form provided? I have reason to believe they were not. I respectfully request that in the future, the district and News 10 act in a manner that is appropriate, fair and respectful to the privacy and wishes of families whose concerns about vaccination safety and efficacy are increasing. It is explicitly inappropriate to assume their “neglect” and display their names, addresses, and phone numbers on broadcast news.

    Thank you for your time.

    Respectfully,

    Vaccination role unclear in whooping cough outbreak: http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-28/health/california.whooping.cough_1_whooping-cough-pertussis-vaccines-and-autism?_s=PM:HEALTH

    Natomas Unified School District
    1901 Arena Blvd.
    Sacramento, CA 95834
    Phone: (916) 567-5400

    Television news company that did the video:
    News10
    400 Broadway
    Sacramento, CA 95812-0010
    News Room Phone: (916) 321-3300

    *Natomas Unified School District Salary Cut & Furlough Agreement

    By Heidi Stevenson

    Source:

    http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/2011-09-26/california-district-is-doing-unannounced-door-to-door-vaccines/

  225. 225
    John Morales

    Oh, hi, Jenny Hatch — O she-who-proclaimed-she-was-done-with-this-place.

    (Lucky you have no credibility to lose, eh?)

    So, how’s your education going? Still carefully avoiding it?

    (Have you yet grokked the concept of herd immunity?)

  226. 226
    Waffler, of the Waffler Institute

    Shorter Jenny Hatch: I’m hoping to get in the last word by posting still more swill long after this thread has died down.

  227. 227
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    Jenny Hatch:

    The idea or thought that anyone at this site could ever even think of using a personal attack as a debate skill when science, facts, and Big Pharma profit streams are on the line…

    Well, you got two out of three right, anyway.

    Why is it that everyone who supports the eradication of diseases* is in the pocket of “Big Pharma?” Might it be that many of us also distrust any large corporation, including pharmaceutical companies that would rather pump research money into hardening penises than curing AIDS?

    Independent research indicates vaccines are far, far safer than the diseases they protect against. Why is that so hard to grasp? This isn’t a Big Pharma thing. It’s an “I don’t want to die of polio” thing.

     

    * Diseases that were devastating not 100 years ago — but you wouldn’t remember that, being safe from most serious disease thanks to things like vaccinations. You’re welcome.

  228. 228
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Could it possibly be more clear that our children are being handed over to Big Pharma as a profit center?

    Talk about paranoia, its there in spades. Your paranoid ravings are nothing but inane unsupported opinion.

    Parents who make the UNintelligent choice not to vaccinate their children are subjected to humiliation and intimidation.
    Fixed that for you. The intelligent choice is vacination.
    Their children may be prevented from going to school.
    As it should be, as the un vaccinated children put the others at risk. If they get sick because of your paranoid decisions, they should be able to sue you for everything you have. Are you willing to take that responsiblity.

    Nobody here is in the pocket of big pharma, which is an invention of paranoid losers like yourself. The school district has a responsibility to keep all kids safe, especially from those who aren’t vaccinated.

  229. 229
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Bah, blockquote failure. Need more coffee.

  230. 230
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    For your enlightenment and education:

    Translation:

    For me to display my willful ignorance and gullibility.

    Vaccinations are arguably the #1 most successful medical advance in the history of the Human race when it comes to saving and improving the lives of all people. If it isn’t #1 it’s #1a.

    Your unbridled paranoia and character flaws leading you to believe anything that any Snake oil salesman tells you, sans any actual supporting evidence, doesn’t change that.

  231. 231
    Anteprepro

    Still doesn’t understand statistics and didn’t even bother to address that the responses to her fucking stupidity. Except for rebutting my “no-one here threatened to sterlize you” by saying that she was threatened on a different forum. Wow, what a stellar defense of her “The conversations typically run the way this comment section has. Personal attacks against me and my family, calls for me to be sterilized, children removed from my care, and worse.” I am utterly defeated by her logic.

  232. 232
    Jenny Hatch

    Hey guys,

    So fun to be back to feel the love.

    A general dissing was thrust in my general direction when I quoted the “Peek a Boo” article above. http://vactruth.com/2009/12/19/health-care-bill-creates-peek-a-boo-squads-to-enforce-in-home-vaccinations/

    Just wanted to share this most recent article from Health Freedom to share the fact that the Peek a Boo squads, with news media along for the ride, are in fact taking place…

    The other assertion above was that Emergency Rooms would not treat citizens who are not up to date on current vaccines.

    In the bill, it is implied but not delineated…so it is a little more difficult to quantify and prove.

    But when it happens, I will be certain to post a little update on this post for ya’ll.

    Happy Trails….

    Jen

    PS Don’t really care about getting in the last word, it’s more…I missed the general sense of “head up our collective ass” that seems to permeate this place. It’s refreshing to know some “true believers” still exist in the world…LMAO

  233. 233
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    It’s refreshing to know some “true believers” still exist in the world…LMAO

    Yeah you fit that description perfectly.

    We can point to the science, you can only point to conspiracy sites and speculators.

    Keep tightening that tin foil hat, they really are out to get you.

  234. 234
    Waffler, of the Waffler Institute

    Jenny’s yet another troll with reading comprehension problems — the link she posted about whooping cough supports the fact that infants are dying in California because people, especially adults haven’t been properly immunized against pertussis.

    Not getting vaccinated == dead kids. Maybe not yours, but somebody’s.

  235. 235
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I missed the general sense of “head up our collective ass” that seems to permeate this place. It’s refreshing to know some “true believers” still exist in the world.

    The only who has posted here recently with their head up their ass is you. You are also a true believer. You believe in imaginary deities without evidence, holy books that are fiction/mythology without evidence, and that vaccines are bad without solid evidence. Only a true believer would preach such nonsense.

  236. 236
    Jenny Hatch

    “they really are out to get you.”

    Naw, I have been dodging them for 4 years. Gotta give em credit though, they are persistent little buggers.

    They have NOT been able to take me or my family out, sickened us yes, but not murdered.

    But these people are dead: http://vaccineresistancemovement.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/micro_dees2.jpg

    And so are the Dead Gardasil Girls: http://nwotruth.com/texas-school-girls-still-dying-in-the-wake-of-rick-perrys-greed/

    And these families have some stories to share: http://followingvaccinations.com/

    Why would anyone question the World Health Organization…

    http://www.adamdanielmezei.com/uploads/MargaretChanWHO.jpg

    So very, very credible, professional, and AUTHORITATIVE.

    “We have been shown people with serious faces and a professional air, the sort to whom ordinary mortals tend to ascribe genuine competence and evident integrity.

    Their herald, elevated by some to hero, is called Margaret Chan. If her manner does not excite much sympathy, her curriculum vitae speaks for itself.”

    Or Laurie Garrett? http://www.fluscam.com/FEAR,_FLU_%26_FRAUD.html

    “So the proper picture here shows Laurie Garrett prostituting for the drug cartel, moaning about the coming plagues, sucking up to vaccine sorcerers, and fornicating for the orgasmic goal of profitable depopulation.”

    I wonder how many Big Pharma Whores live and breath here at Free Thought Blogs???

    Jen

  237. 237
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    Waffler:

    Not getting vaccinated == dead kids. Maybe not yours, but somebody’s.

    Like MRAs, vaxxers don’t give a fuck about anyone else. They’re just desperate to cling to their own ignorance. They go out of their way to wallow in it, and try to bring it to others.

    Watch this.

     

    Hey, Jenny! How many lives have vaccines saved over the years?

  238. 238
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    Jenny Hatch:

    I wonder how many Big Pharma Whores live and breath here at Free Thought Blogs???

    All of us, Jenny. All of us. They threatened to kill my puppy if I didn’t cooperate with them. They’ve made me do evil, unspeakable acts. They really have me. There’s no escape, no hope for me.

    But there’s still hope for you, Jenny. Run. Run far away. Find a place where you can hide, off the grid. Don’t answer the phone, don’t check your mail, and don’t get on the internet. They’ll track you if you do, and they’ll find you, and then they’ll have you.

    Save yourself, Jenny! Please, for the love of all that is holy, save yourself and your family.

    There’s no hope for me, but there is for you.

    Oh, dear God, what have I done?

  239. 239
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Yawn, Jenny, nothing but one paranoid reinforcing other paranoids. Still no solid evidence, compared to CDC studies showing vaccines are safe and do the job. What a delusional fool.

  240. 240
    myeck waters

    I really do love the complete lack of any sense of proportion in Jenny’s belief that FTB is “in the pocket” of “big pharma”.

    Look at PZ Myers, Jenny. That’s the guy who owns this blog, in case you still haven’t figured that out. He’s a biologist. He’s an outspoken atheist. He tends to be politically liberal and an outspoken supporter of the treating all human beings as equal human beings movements.

    Look at the things he posts. The vast majority of his posts concern:
    1) biology (and sometimes other sciency stuff),
    2) religion (including the horrible things people to each other in the name of religion, religious people using phony science to try to force religion back into school, etc.),
    3) issues within the atheist community,
    4) social issues

    Just read the titles of his blog entries. How many mention vaccines AT ALL?

    Do you really think “big pharma” has enough money to go around paying off every blogger with a vaguely science-based website, ON THE OFF CHANCE that they might write a pro-vaccination post?

    There isn’t enough drug profits on the planet to do that, Jenny.

    Seriously, think about the absurd mental gymnastics you force yourself into to keep believing that everyone who doesn’t share your views on this issue is being paid off.

  241. 241
    Jenny Hatch

    I think most who vaccinate their kids and stick up for vaccines on the Internet are True Believers. Naive, but they really believe that syringe filled with a slurry of toxins and chemicals shot into the body will help rather than hurt. And it is likely that most who comment here are also True Believers who show an unusual dedication to science without questioning the ebb and flow of the almighty dollar attached to the mass poisoning of humanity.

    But to assume that no organized efforts exist to maintain and even expand the vaccine industry seems just a wee bit delusional. And to think that Big Pharma is just sitting quietly doing nothing proactive to deal with dissenters is more than naive, it is childish.

    http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/fda-commissioner-pushing-to-eliminate-conflict-of-interest-laws-allow-paid-drug-company-reps-to-fill-advisory-positions/

    I don’t really care if I am talking to a true believer or a paid shill. Lord knows I have debated plenty of both over at Free Republic for the past eight years. A whole posse of full time commenters playing “Whack a Mole” over on that site, no doubt bought and paid for by Pharma Companies to defend and push Allopathic Medicine to death, would pop up any time someone posted a thread questioning any part of the Health Care System, especially vaccines. You know the game where a mole pops up and little kids have to whack it down with a mallet? Well that is how it felt to be a participant on that site when talking about Healing.

    How pathetic of a product are you selling when you have to have government mandates, police, courts, and over zealous politicians shove your comodity on the populace.

    I understand the “Herd Immunity” argument.

    But can we all suspend disbelief for just a minute and throw out the idea that this is a Marketing Tactic.

    What other industry could get away with this fraud? And get politicians to write laws making it impossible for those damaged or killed by said product absolved of all financial responsibility to victims and their families. No other manufacturer in the world would attempt or presume that level of fraud.

    But the drug companies know that if Vaccines go down they are going to take the whole bloated, toxic, behemoth known as modern medicine with it. And they sure as hell are not going down without a fight.

    If you are a true believer, do some research on one of the excellent web sites put together by people not in the pay of Big Pharma.

    If you are a paid troll, look in the mirror and ask yourself if that check you get every month from your pimp is worth the death and disbility of huge swaths of humanity being sacrificed on the alter of prosperity and financial solvency. Shame, Shame, Shame on you. Get a real job, do something positive with your life, produce something to help humanity, serve those in need and STOP fueling the insanity by dumping on Mothers like me who just want to raise a healthy Family.

    Jenny Hatch

  242. 242
    Gnumann+, out&proud cultural marxist (just don't ask me about Gramsci)

    If you are a true believer, do some research on one of the excellent web sites put together by people not in the pay of Big Pharma.

    Like sciencebasedmedicine.org? Good advice! :D

  243. 243
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    Jenny,

    If you are sincere, perhaps you can answer this one simple question: How many lives have vaccines saved over the years?

  244. 244
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    Jenny,

    Also, you realize you make the ad hominem fallacy when you dismiss our arguments by claiming we are shills for the pharmaceutical companies, right? You are not winning the argument that way. You are merely avoiding the actual and substantive points we are making.

    This would make it seem you understand you are in a weak position.

  245. 245
    Jenny Hatch

    Sincerity….hmmmm.

    How to word this…..thinking…..(pondering)

    Sincere, Is it possible for me to even consider Sincerity?

    Snark is usually my best tactic when chatting about vaccines, but hmmm, this dude really seems to want to know what I think.

    Lives saved by Vaccines.

    It is my humble and sincere belief that from the beginning of the twentieth century elites have used vaccines to cull the population and intoxicate as many people with deadly toxins as possible to create a neverending stream of income for themselves, their friends, and their families.

    I believe the very vaccines used to “Prevent” certain diseases in fact give individuals the disease in question and the vaccine manufacturers, who also own the media, use fear based programming to frighten the gullible into getting the shot.

    Exibit 1: Swine Flu H1 N1

    In the lead up to the vaccine being available, the level of media propaganda was tailored to each country. In America, a high school football player in his prime was featured all over the news as being struck down by the disease. In Canada it was a hockey player, in Australia it was prob a Rugby Player, and no doubt in England a prize Polo player was featured all over the news as having fallen prey to the dread disease.

    Thinking being that if the young, anthletic, and healthy are keeling over dead or disabled, Everyone needs to get this shot, TODAY, or we are all gonna die.

    Some of us have done the research and understand exactly what a squalene adjuvenated flu shot is doing to the American People. You watch, it won’t be long now…just a few more years and you will see a new disease hit marked by a strange purplish hue on the faces and bodies of those who received the shot.

    This purple bruising will be evidence that Squalene Adjuvent was included in some of the vaccines, and while doctors run around trying to figure out what the new plague of the week is, citizens will be dropping like flies as the body shuts down from a cytokine storm.

    I recomend reading Vaccine A by Gary Matsumoto to educate yourselves on Squalene Adjuvent.

    Lives Saved? Not too many…

    Lives Destroyed? Millions upon Millions upon Millions.

    Jenny

  246. 246
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    Jenny:

    Lives Saved? Not too many…

    Lives Destroyed? Millions upon Millions upon Millions.

    Thanks. That’s all I needed to know.

  247. 247
    Jenny Hatch

    Links: Vaccine A Book and Web Site: http://www.vaccine-a.com/

    Cytokine Storm: http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/?p=2698

    Jen

  248. 248
    PZ Myers

    It is my humble and sincere belief that from the beginning of the twentieth century elites have used vaccines to cull the population and intoxicate as many people with deadly toxins as possible to create a neverending stream of income for themselves, their friends, and their families.

    Oh, please. Visit a pre-19th century cemetery. Take a walk around. Notice the family plots: Father, a wife or three (death in childbirth was common), and the little graves next to them where the babies and children were buried.

    If that’s not enough for you, look up some historical child mortality statistics. What was killing all those children? Big Buggy Whip?

  249. 249
    Waffler, of the Waffler Institute

    Jenny, you support the death of vulnerable children. That’s all you’re anti-vax advocacy has ever, will ever, can ever achieve. You are ignorant, but your ignorance is willful, so you are guilty, in spite of your ignorance. Go away, and, maybe, take up a hobby that’s less harmful to the world around you.

  250. 250
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I think most who vaccinate their kids and stick up for vaccines on the Internet are True Believers. Naive, but they really believe that syringe filled with a slurry of toxins and chemicals shot into the body will help rather than hurt.

    What a true believer™ in paranoia and nonsense. You haven’t demonstated what is necessary for your position. Which is that the average kid is hurt rather than helped by not getting avoidable diseases. All you have is paranoia that somebody is out to get your kids. That isn’t the case. You must be a liberturd with that level of paranoia.

    I understand the “Herd Immunity” argument.

    I don’t think so Jenny. You have no understanding of the whole situation, and the lack of science for your paranoic stance.

    no doubt bought and paid for by Pharma Companies to defend and push Allopathic Medicine to death, would pop up any time someone posted a thread questioning any part of the Health Care System, especially vaccines.

    You keep making this inane and insane (it isn’t rational) claim. Time to pony up the cancelled checks as solid and conclusive evidence, or shut the fuck up. If you can’t do either, all you have is your paranoia.

    What other industry could get away with this fraud?

    Bald assertion without citation to the scientific literature. Meaningless paranoid drivel.

    Get a real job, do something positive with your life, produce something to help humanity, serve those in need and STOP fueling the insanity by dumping on Mothers like me who just want to raise a healthy Family.

    If you want a healthy family, you vaccinate. Period. And I do have a real job that will help people down the line. Unlike you, who hurts people with their paranoia online.

  251. 251
    Rey Fox

    There’s nothing humble about that belief. You may be sincere, but you’re not humble, and you’re not noble.

  252. 252
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    What’s really strange is how patently false your position is, Jenny. Most people who get vaccinations are perfectly healthy. If your claims were true, there would be more that sufficient data to indicate vaccinations are harmful, but the truth is, the evidence indicates vaccines are extremely safe.

    What is certain is that, before widespread vaccination programs, deadly diseases killed thousands to millions of people each year. What is also certain is that the rate of death by disease decreases in countries that implement widespread vaccinations. It is also true that in areas where the anti-vax communities root, things like whooping cough take hold.

    This is called evidence. We have a lot of it. All of it supports the efficacy of vaccination programs.

    If there is a health issue with vaccinations, it is vastly offset by the millions of lives saved by vaccinations over the years.

    If you’d like to go back to the days of polio and regular flu epidemics, be my guest. But please do it somewhere else. I don’t want to be endangered by your lack of immunity.

  253. 253
    Vicki, duly vaccinated tool of the feminist conspiracy

    Jenny:

    Before you get so upset about squalene, you might try finding out where it comes from other than vaccines. Your body makes it, in much larger quantities than are used in vaccine adjuvants. Then it uses the squalene to make vitamin D and hormones.

    Look up rickets and get back to us.

  254. 254
    Waffler, of the Waffler Institute

    You know what’s weird and just so hard to explain? In the era when my older brother was born – the late 1940s – parents were terrified, and my Dad was one of those terrified parents. There was this disease going around called polio. Kids got it, a lot of them. No parent wanted their kid to get this disease. It was awful — kids killed, kids in iron lungs, unable to breathe on their own, and so on. I’ve talked to my parents about this era — rumors of an outbreak in a town terrifying everybody nearby. It’s almost like a science fiction story – like ‘I am legend’, but instead of creating vampires, the plague creates devastated parents and disabled and dead kids.

    My brother was one of the ‘lucky’ ones — he didn’t die, or end up in an iron lung. Just a wheelchair. For the rest of his life. I have an aunt, too, who got polio. She can still walk, with difficulty. She was lucky too, I guess.

    But my sister and I, well, we hit the jackpot. We were born over a decade later — in the 1960s. For some reason, parents weren’t so worried anymore. There were other things to be scared of, I suppose, but nothing like polio. It went away, as if by magic. I didn’t get it. My sister didn’t get it. Nobody in my town got it, or had gotten it, for quite some time. People just didn’t get polio anymore, and they still don’t. What’s so hard to explain is — why? Why did this terrible disease, which had troubled us humans so terribly, just disappear?

  255. 255
    myeck waters

    Borderline Off-Topic, but the talk about the horrible death tolls these diseases used to rack up year after year reminded me of one of my favorite morbid books, Wisconsin Death Trip.

    Jenny, you are the beneficiary of a century-plus of vaccinations. You have had the luxury of growing up in a place and time where diseases like smallpox, polio, measles, mumps, and rubella are no longer major killers.

    Just like the people who don’t remember how bad the pollution of rivers and streams was getting back in the 1950s, and so only think of the EPA as a bunch of interfering no-goodniks.

    Just like the people who are too young to remember what non-whites went through every day in our society before the government started to take civil rights seriously, and so they think it’s just a bunch of dark-skinned crybabies wanting a free ride.

    Being born ignorant is one thing. But having had your ignorance pointed out to you, but stubbornly refusing to learn from the past, is inexcusable.

  256. 256
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    Waffler:

    Why did this terrible disease, which had troubled us humans so terribly, just disappear?

    Don’t you get it? Big Pharma has been around for a very long time. They’re the public money-making arm of the Illuminati. They used to get people sick using engineered strains of usually-benign microorganisms. They’d wait until one person got infected, and then use that person as a vector. Each subsequent infected person also became a vector.

    Insidious!

    Why would they do this? To keep the people in fear, of course.

    Then they realized they could make a lot of money by creating a toxic combination of mind control drugs, sex inhibitors, and hot-dog extract and selling them to people as “vaccines” (which is, of course, Olde English for “shit I threw together in my garage”). To make it believable, and to make people want their devil’s brew, they stopped using humans as vectors for disease.

    It’s all Big Pharma, my friend. It’s Big Pharma all the way down.

  257. 257
    chigau (違う)

    I know someone who humbly and sincerely believed that the morning radio guys and the bus drivers were conspiring against him.
    Until the meds kicked in.

  258. 258
    Ichthyic

    Jenny tried to post over on Jerry’s blog too.

    Conclusion from those posts and these, and her website:

    borderline schizophrenia.

    Jenny, seek treatment.

  259. 259
    myeck waters

    Too bad there’s not a vaccine for schizophrenia.

  260. 260
    Ichthyic

    Too bad there’s not a vaccine for schizophrenia.

    might be the equivalent pretty soon, if the research pans out.

    already several ways to recognize it early and treat it fairly successfully.

    things have come a long ways since the days of John Nash.

  261. 261
    myeck waters

    [voice = "inner"]Why is it so tempting to threaten Jenny with mandatory schizophrenia vacination?[/voice]

  262. 262
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    It is my humble and sincere belief that from the beginning of the twentieth century elites have used vaccines to cull the population and intoxicate as many people with deadly toxins as possible to create a neverending stream of income for themselves, their friends, and their families.

    I believe the very vaccines used to “Prevent” certain diseases in fact give individuals the disease in question and the vaccine manufacturers, who also own the media, use fear based programming to frighten the gullible into getting the shot.

    I’m not giving you a pass by doing any internet armchair diagnosis. I’m not qualified.

    I am however qualified to spot a moron as I deal with them daily.

    You, madam, are a giant fucking moron of epic proportions with a streak of gullibility that nearly rivals your dumbfuckery.

    The fact you could even dream up a statement such as the one above, believe it had any merit when weighed against the reality of modern medicine and the demonstrateable hundreds of millions of walking data points of your inaccuracy is something akin to claiming that electricity comes from the gnomes working their sky balloons in the clouds.

    It’s easily one of the most astoundingly stupid and easily proven wrong things I’ve ever read.

    If it were to be true we would have an avalanche of data pouring down on us to point to that would back your incredibly stupid assertion.

    In fact the evidence would be so crushing that the aftershocks of the first discovery of this would still be reverberating for decades to come.

    In short, you’re an idiot.

    Stick to whatever you Mormon mothers do to torment their children. I’m sure you’re an expert at that.

    Leave reality to those of us who have a grasp on it. You certainly do not.

  263. 263
    Jenny Hatch

    Hey Guys,

    I am into nourishing my brain with vitamins, minerals, and protein. I use alternative healing to keep me healthy and well. Not into Sorcery, Witches Brews, and Toxic Crap being injected into my body and the bodies/minds of my children.

    Not crazy, Not Paranoid, Not Delusional…just quietly educating anyone interested in an alternative path, and willing to stand publicly against the Death Merchants.

    The fact that the Death Merchants have targeted me for poisoning has taught me that my message and my tactics have been effective. I should insert here that it is my faith in Jesus Christ and my knowledge of how to quickly detoxify my body using alternative healing that has enabled me to remain alive despite multiple attacks.

    For those who would like to learn more about the Death Merchants:

    Google:

    Partnership for New York City – http://www.pfnyc.org/history.html
    and the Rockefellers-Population Council (Leading De-Population Group),

    Goldman Sachs-Lloyd Blankfein, Scientific Fraud from President Obamas Favorite Corporation.

    Rupert Murdoch and family – heads of Merck. Smith Kline Beecham, and Elisabeth Murdoch of the Murdoch Childrens Research Institute: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_Murdoch_(philanthropist)

    Thomas Glocer-Merck and Reuters,

    John Holdren – (Obama Science Czar) Called for massive global depopulation using vaccine in his book.

    History of Vaccines with Dr. Leonard Horowitz Part 1 of 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tynHSqJsEs&noredirect=1

    History of Vaccines with Dr. Leonard Horowitz Part 2 of 6:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgodtOhwnVM&feature=related

    History of Vaccines with Dr. Leonard Horowitz Part 3 of 6:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2VNu4wu4ZY&feature=related

    Lots of Love!

    Jenny Hatch

  264. 264
    chigau (違う)

    Lying is a Sin, Jenny.
    Be careful, your God is watching you.

  265. 265
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I use alternative healing to keep me healthy and well.

    Might as well take sugar pills. Nothing but the wonder drug Placebo in your idiot medicine chest.

    The fact that the Death Merchants have targeted me for poisoning

    And how is this not a paranoid statement? It is a smoking gun of paranoia.

    I should insert here that it is my faith in Jesus Christ

    Ah faith in a non-existent thing. Typical of delusional behavior. Which then extends from non-existent deities to using placebo and ineffective treatments in place of real medicine.

    There are no Death Merchants except in your paranoid delusions. I’m not a delusional fool, so your paranoia isn’t being shared by use here. You are wasting your time with each and every delusional and unscientific post.

  266. 266
    Jenny Hatch

    Vicky,

    I know that Squalene is a vital component in human tissue and that it can be safely eaten and even rubbed on the skin.

    But a deadly immune reaction takes place when it is injected into the body.

    This has been documented for decades.

    Animals injected with it became so ill, and the effects so horrifying to watch that it was outlawed for use in Lab Animals.

    So the question MUST be asked, “WHY HAS IT BEN USED AS AN ADJUVANT IN THE ANTHRAX, FLU, GARDASIL, AND OTHER RECENTLY DESIGNED VACCINES???

    http://www.fluscam.com/Squalene_Poison.html

    Just one question that this anti vaxxer would like answered before I allow it to be injected into one of my children.

    Jen

  267. 267
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    But a deadly immune reaction takes place when it is injected into the body.

    Citation need, as you are proven liar and bullshitter, and paranoid delusional fool.

    But a deadly immune reaction takes place when it is injected into the body.

    Where? You keep asserting, but prove nothing. That is why you are scorned. There is this thing called the peer reviewed scientific literature. You ignore it.

    Just one question that this anti vaxxer would like answered before I allow it to be injected into one of my children.

    You lie and bullshit, as the evidence says otherwise.

    You are wasting your time posting here. We are smarter and better read with the real science than you are. All you have are delusional thinking and paranoia. Not a good combination.

  268. 268
  269. 269
    'Tis Himself

    Jenny, could you get me the mailing address for “Big Pharma”? I haven’t been getting any checks like you said I was. Surely someone as knowledgeable as you about “Big Pharma” should know something as simple as how to get in contact with them.

  270. 270
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Notice the first sentence your link Jenny. Not in vaccines in the US. So your paranoia keeps showing. Besides, anybody who understands evidence knows the difference between a drug and a poison is dosage. You don’t.

  271. 271
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Jenny, you had better keep your kids away from dihydrogen monoxide. It’s a killer ;)
    *for the non-paranoids out there, this is a hoax, just like most of Jenny’s data*

  272. 272
    Jenny Hatch

    http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/squalene-a-history-of-vaccine

    The Comments attached to this informative article about Squalene are particularly thoughtful and well written.

    Shared with utmost sincerity and in a spirit of good will and enlightenment.

    XOXO

    Jen

  273. 273
    Jenny Hatch

    FYI The Squalene Article just posted was written by Don Harkin, editor of The Idaho Observer.

    He is dead.

    His wife believed foul play was involved…

    Jen

  274. 274
    Gnumann+, out&proud cultural marxist (just don't ask me about Gramsci)

    His wife believed foul play was involved…

    Here is what his wife believed:

    Actually, I do. Mycoplasma infections, also used as biological weaponry, are associated with this particular type of leukemia. AML is also known to be resistant to chemotherapy. I believe it was a miracle that Don got out of the hospital alive. The power of hundreds of people praying for Don, energetic machines focused on him and the strength of our love brought him back to us. Don wanted to live – he had the strongest spirit of any man I have ever known. Several people have detected that Don was under energetic attack and others picked up on Don being exposed to high levels of radiation despite our remote location and lack of cellphones or nearby celltowers. He simply was not on death’s door on Friday – weak but recovering. His body purged a lot of the chemo and toxins on Sept. 17 and his color had improved by Friday afternoon. Yes, the technology is there for focusing a radiation beam on anyone who is effective in halting the plans of those seeking to rule the planet.

  275. 275
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Ah Jenny, still not believing you. After all, you are a proven liar, bullshitter, and paranoid. Speaking of which, you might want to get rid of some potential bombs in your kitchens. Little things like flour, powdered sugar, and coffee creamer. All of which can and have exploded under the right conditions…

  276. 276
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Prayer is worthless Jenny, and can lead to dead kids as shown here.

  277. 277
    Ing

    HUGE Profanity alert if you decide to go wading into comment section [...]

    Lol

  278. 278
    how to generate free electricity

    Nice blog right here! Additionally your site lots up very fast! What host are you the use of? Can I am getting your affiliate hyperlink to your host? I want my website loaded up as fast as yours lol

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