Planned by his own dad.
When God made the trees, He knew that a tree would one day be used for the evilest event of history: Jesus’ crucifixion.
These people have such a weird worldview — everything is planned and predestined, right down to the seed that grew into the tree that would be used as a torture device. God is scheming in advance to do evil.
Speaking of evil…the death of Jesus was the evilest event in history? When you are not fanatically obsessed with your cult founder, one can think of many much more evil events.
Perhaps the crucifiction WAS the most evil event in history.
Because it was the central item in God’s Divine Plan!
The idea that forgiveness (for nothing) requires shedding of blood was just a “rule” that he MADE UP.
The plan revolves around a pointless and needless torture event.
Sad.
Ken Ham coming out strong as an Ophite.
The whole idea is evil and also really silly when you think about it.
.1. As Bruce in the first comment already pointed out, why does god need a human blood sacrifice to forgive humans for anything?
He is god, the omni powerful being who can do anything.
He could just forgive people who are sincerely repentant.
This looks like a simple hold over from the forerunner religions of xianity, who had human made rules for sacrifices and human sacrifices to their gods for one thing or another.
Rules that were made up for humans by humans.
.2. According to the bible, the whole killing of jesus was planned.
He sent himself down to earth as jesus to wander around Israel for a decade and then get killed by the Romans.
He is god, the omni powerful being.
He could have just turned the Jewish Sanhedrin court and the Roman authorities into frogs and then gone out to lunch.
.3. The whole idea of an afterlife with infinite punishment for finite crimes is also just plain evil.
If someone isn’t worthy of heaven, then they could just be ended forever, just gone.
This idea of hell is so stupid and evil that even a lot or most xians don’t actually believe it any more.
The Seventh Day Adventists claim that bad people are annililated after they are dead.
If you try to make sense of xianity, it doesn’t make much sense.
It looks like a lot of stuff made up by humans over the millennia.
And xians never ever agree on any of the details, including such things as how many xian gods there are, 1, 2, 3, 4.?
Since he and the father were one wasn’t it suicide?
@1: Well said. The whole notion of original sin and Jesus’ “sacrifice” involves a great deal of mental gymnastics. They have to create failings in their almighty, omniscient god to justify the roundabout (and woefully inadequate) solution of Jesus.
Frankly to me, the whole mess sounds like something God negotiated with Satan from a position of weakness to save a fraction of human souls. Jesus’ salvation doesn’t sound like God’s victory, it sounds like a triumphant Satan throwing God some table scraps through a labyrinthine contract. IF God loved everyone and had power greater than Satan, he would have gotten better results. I know if I somehow got into Heaven and then knew Hell contained the vast majority of humanity in eternal suffering, the first thing I’d do is raise an army to tear open its gates and end it for them. I wouldn’t be able to (after-)live with myself if I didn’t.
It gets worse.
God created Satan.
He created everything after all.
It also gets more incoherent.
Satan evolves in the bible. He starts out as just another angel, one of god’s made up friends.
He really changes in the New Testament, under the influence of Greek and Zoroastrian influences.
Most of what modern xians believe about satan, they made up recently and it isn’t in the bible.
There was no War in Heaven, that was from Milton.
Satan isn’t ruling in hell either. He lives in Los Angeles.
@6 Yeah. Fractal wrongness.
My understanding was that Satan wasn’t a name, it was a term for a plot device character who questions things so that God could demonstrate why the objections to his methods are wrong through the parable. He was a flat character who solely existed for the purpose of raising questions to be answered.
Then later Christians torture passages about forgotten political enemies to allegedly be about this fanon character.
The whole Satan mess is why I like to reverse a saying: “The devil’s greatest trick was convincing the world that he existed.” Of course, I think a lot of people only believe in Satan so they can claim the devil made them do it.
the greatest trick the Flying Spaghetti Monster ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn’t exist
“the evilest event of history: Jesus’ crucifixion”
This is a really bizarre statement from a Xian, who’s supposed to believe that Yeshua’s death is the only thing that prevents everyone from going to hell.
@9: Yeah, they can’t seem to make up their mind about that. Saw some bits of an episode of Moral Orel where he has to play the part of Judas in the church crucifixion play. He’s down about it, but someone tells him that without Judas, Jesus wouldn’t get crucified and no one would be saved, so he’s now encouraged to play his part. Gets into a musical number where he’s trashing Jesus that ends up so catchy, the whole town is singing it afterwards.
@9. rickarddavidt : I guess if youreally believ inthe accuracy of their myuthology the most evilact ever was a coupel of indivduals eating an
apple, erpomegranite<//Strike>, er, fuit of the tree of knowledge of good & evil ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_and_evil ) which apparently = original sin and caused the punishment not just of them but every human subsequentlky born. Not ,y’know, any genocide or murders or tortures or rapes or insert a bout a gazillion times google (original number) of theings worse than eating some obviously non-toxic fruit.Hey, maybe the cross was made from a ficus.. that could explain another really weird and out of all propotion bible myth
Reading that made me think of this for some reason:
“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
If God knows what tree will be used as Jesus’ cross, wouldn’t he know who the bad apples are when he creates them? Why would he let that happen if he already killed his son to forgive us of our sins? Or does God create a human not knowing if they will turn out good or bad? The shit doesn’t make sense.
Actually we can find a more evil act almost every day then one guy killed on a cross.
How about ICE executing civilians on the street for no reason in daylight and on camera?
A few days ago, there was yet again, another school shooting in Bend Oregon, 3 kids and a teacher dead.
The ongoing genocides in Gaza and Ukraine, civilians dead every day, many of them children.
Elon Musk and DOGE managed to kill at least half a million people, many of them children in one year due to their cut backs of USAID.
That makes him a mass murderer on an epic scale.
AFAWK, Satan never killed anyone.
@13: God also sends out evil spirits to torment people a few times. It kind of pokes a hole in the “good” nature of God if he creates evil. If he were some kind of D&D true neutral and/or an amoral primal force, it’d be easier to accept because none of it’d require moral justification. It becomes a problem if you’re trying to define God as the ultimate good person, where everything can and should be examined for justification. And that brings all sorts of bizarre rationalizations because some actions simply can’t be justified.
Whelp, I fucked that (#11) up. Take II here for clarity & expansion :
I guess if you really believe in the accuracy of their Xn mythology the most evil act ever was a couple of individuals eating an
apple, erpomegranate**, er (Oops that was Persephone* who ate a few seeds – because apparently not the fruit itself just some of the seeds.. becoz. Yum?), fruit of the Tree of knowledge of Good & Evil) which apparently = “Original Sin” and caused the divine punishment not just of them but every human subsequently born. Coz God hatesfigs, seafoodpeople eating the fruit of knowledge.Not, y’know, any genocide or murders or tortures or rapes or insert about a gazillion trillion times google (original number meaning of google) of the things worse than voluntarily eating some obviously non-toxic fruit. (Wonder what it tasted like? Knowledge-y I guess..)
Hey, maybe the cross was made from a Ficus.. that could explain another really weird and out of all proportion bible myth.
https://www.thebrickbible.com/nt/03_the_passion_of_jesus/02_jesus_curses_a_tree/index.html
Hmm.. I think I prefer the Niven-verse where eating a special fruit turns one into an
alienmore advanced unlocked extra stage of “protector” human.See : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protector_(novel)
. * See : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomegranates_in_culture
.* Hmm.. I guess a pomeGranite would taste a lot rocker and be stonier as stonefruit go, a real rockfruit like a rockmelon, er, make that rockdrupe.
@ raven : “AFAWK, Satan never killed anyone.
Well, some of Job’s family. Actually almost all Job’s family for a bet with god but its okay god gave job anothr family so all good yeah?
There’s actually a fun yt video on the comparartive number of deaths caused by God vs Satan here – How Many Has God Killed? 5 mins 39 secs
Besides his great flood, there’s that child-killing plague used to make dudes change their minds. Wouldn’t testicular torsion of the decision makes be a less evil alternative inducement?
@6, I hear he has a bar and is a pretty good pianist :)
@8 I have never understood why that was considered a good argument, especially as it can be applied to any deity including the xtian deity. I’m sure the argument against why it doesn’t apply is something to the effect of God not being willing to trick us, but at the same time he expects me to believe without any direct, verifiable evidence? How that is different from tricking us into believing he doesn’t exist is beyond me :D
Christian theology is just picking over the debris left by the unstoppable force of belief in human free will running into the immovable object of an equally strong belief in an omniscient deity.
I notice Ken Ham is dodging the important question; how many nails were used in the crucifixion? C’mon Ken; was it 3 or 4? Take a side on this important issue!
The original bronze age/early iron age did not concern itself with “justice” per se. It was mostly ‘the strong do what they want, and the weak endure what they must’. Familial and tribal loyalities ruled. To maintain some order, rules were enforced along the line of ‘eye for an eye’.
.
As has been explained before at this blog, it was only during the iron age -when monied elites had the time to ponder justice and abstractions of good and evil- that “good” or “evil” begun to be attributed to some gods.
The peons went on regarding their gods divorced from good or evil like their bronze age ancestors.
.
The interpretion of El/Jaweh and his minions (gods or ‘mere’ angels) shifted along with the times.
I highly recommend “The Memories of God” (out of print, very expensive) showing how the beliefs of the Israeli tribes gradually changed from standard Canaanite religion to monotheism .
The OT is still full of old relics despite the many retcons. The god sometimes appear in person, wrestling, his feet are visible. He has great beasts symbolising parts of the cosmos as pets.
You are already familiar with the ‘four sources’ of the oldest OT books.
The heavenly host changes nature from minor gods to non-divine servants
The order for the killing ‘came from inside the house’!
This link is relevant…about the general weirdness of the Bible.
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“Clearly Written By Boys” – Scathing Atheist Interview
The Bible was not just written by boys, it was written by incels sitting in mom’s basement.
.https://youtube.com/watch?v=Iaj-chrpwv4
Birger, the Bible is a curated collection of writings spanning centuries and multiple traditions.
(The scathing atheist is an ignoramus)
StevoR the seeds are the part of a pomegranate that you eat, juicy little red jewels.
@ #1 Heh, I like that take. What if it all actually was according to God’s plan… and he’s done now and just forgot to turn the power off on his way out.
What galls me the most is that Jesus’ “sacrifice” essentially achieved nothing and that’s when you take its claims at face value.
One. what did Jesus actually sacrifice? He had a bad day, his earthly avatar was rendered inert for three days and then revived. For a being that said to be infinite and eternal that’s nothing. God would already know every pain there is, including pain infinitely worse than scourging and crucifixion (and Jesus died the day he was put on the cross, there are people who lingered for days) and any finite amount of time is nothing compared to infinity. Worse, he knew he’d come back and be empowered further.
What do you call giving up something with the knowledge that you receive more in return? An INVESTMENT or a PURCHASE! Not a sacrifice.
And then there’s what this whole charade was supposed to actually accomplish. No, your default fate is still eternal suffering in hell, but now you can do “something” to avert this. What this something is 3000+ Christian sects can’t agree on. Sometimes you have to follow this or that rule, pledge your allegiance to this or that organization and sometimes you also have cannibalize Jesus’ body and blood. Maybe. None of it is clear and not one Christian can show any redeemed humans in Heaven to show it’s working. There’s not even any universally agreed-upon doctrine why the people who were born before Jesus’ coming never got to have that opportunity.
If Jesus was trying to make a sacrifice worth of the name he should have stayed in Hell and accepted all the suffering there in stead of any and all humans on Earth, past and future, forevermore with everyone going to Heaven no matter what.