Rebecca Watson’s video hit me hard — I was there for almost all of the events she talked about. I never did enough. So I had to express myself a little bit.
A lot of folks were conned by those supposed thought leaders, but PZ, you were one of the first ones to jump off the ship as soon as you saw the cruelty unmasked. You even tossed a “grenade” at Michael Shermer as you went over the railing.
It’s good to see this “confessional” video though, because it proves your honesty and the shame you (and many of us in the readership) rightly feel by any association with that cabal, which is a true sign that you deserve trust. And good job Rebecca Watson. Watched her video a short while ago and naturally had to check out Pharyngula to see what you had to say about it.
Here’s a recent post from Digby’s blog (H/T Tom Sullivan & Anand Giridharadas) that provides a good explanation of what they call The Epstein Class: https://digbysblog.net/?s=epstein+class
chrislawsonsays
We all have different personalities, obviously, but I don’t feel shame about Dawkins, Shermer, Krauss, etc., because I had no influence on them or their decisions. The emotion I feel is white-hot fury that these people ended up thoroughly betraying the values they pretended to represent.
In fairness, PZ, I remember you calling out Shermer as soon as you found out he was a rapist.
At this point, I wasn’t shocked to find out how many of these people were in the Epstein files, I was shocked at how moronic they sounded, and about how gross these organizations were. Sure, I’m not going to judge people for the opened of their relationships, but it’s super inappropriate to put the people you’re fucking on the side in charge of your foundation.
it’s painful but useful sometimes to catch a monkeywrench in the feels. reflecting, was there something wrong with the atheoskeptic movement even at its best, in the noble words they said in the light of day? is atheist evangelism a thing we should be doing, and if so, how should we be going about it? was that it?
reminds one of athesim plus, that idea atheism alone ain’t hackin it. as you are well aware. weren’t you the guy who came up with “dictionary atheist” as a label? i don’t recall. but clearly atheism plus wasn’t working. i hopped on that ship two minutes before it sank.
so what should a progressive atheist movement be like? if it should exist at all? having heavy doubts is a good thing, as long as you can get to a good place in the wake of them.
imbacksays
When our community did experience Deep Rifts, let’s at least have some encouragement that we did not stick with the side that promoted perverts and pedophiles.
You may feel you did not do enough—but I am sure many are grateful for what you did do.
By the way, in Melbourne in 2012 you and Mary both met my partner Emma, while I was still boymoding as Pope Maledict (to allude to a previous ScienceBlogs and FTB nym). We finally got married on 27 January just gone. We both watched your video and then Rebecca’s (sort of reverse order, but forgive us, we’re Antipodean). And I too remember most of the various allegations Rebecca brings up.
Thanks for being one of the good ones, PZ. Love to Mary.
nomdeplumesays
@9 I too met PZ at Melbourne in 2012 – I’m sure he won’t remember meeting two (me and a friend) Australian Atheist Zoologists…
lasiussays
I have never understood why atheism needed self-appointed “leaders” anyway.
birgerjohanssonsays
PZ distanced himself the momen he knew enough.
Now, it is time to strenghten alternative networks for Americans who dislike the theist hegemony. The task is made easier by the religious right being fettered to the MAGA corpse. Look forward and try to be optimistic despite the current shitshow.
John Moralessays
lasius, these days they’d be called influencers.
People like to follow. Why celebrities perforce become pundits.
mrdlcsays
I have been a skeptic since 1980 and an atheist since 1996. I was never asked and never wanted to attend any meetups, conventions, parties or whatever. I am at best a fellow traveler. I never knew of any of the behind the scenes machinations because I was nowhere near the scene, in front or back. It should go without saying that I would have been dead set against any of it had I known at the time. PZ, I appreciate your need to express your feelings of guilt regarding this, but I also feel you should not treat yourself too harshly.
rorschachsays
Xanthe @9,
good on you, congrats!!!
rorschachsays
All of this is not an atheism problem, or a skepticism problem. It’s a societal problem, rich and powerful people doing amoral things because they feel entitled to it and rarely have to fear any repercussions for their actions. What I found revealing about this latest batch of releases was how many scientists and academics coddled up to Epstein and so desperately wanted to be part of his world.
From what I saw at the few conferences I went to, I have a feeling this is not the end of the revelations. Some people have not been mentioned yet, and I do remember wondering at the time, why, let’s say, a 50yo author would have breakfast with 5 what looked like 18year olds. This movement saw a lot more abuse I think, in the Epstein files or not.
Akira MacKenziesays
And now that the atheist movement is dead, we hand the world over to the primitive savages who wallow in superstition like an animal rolls in shit!
The movement is dead, but the principles live on. We just have to reassemble organizations in which the chief qualification for leadership is not having fucked Richard Dawkins.
I just realized…no wonder I never had any position of responsibility in any of them!
noisyastronomersays
It’s been frustrating to have all this go unacknowledged for so long, and it’s been encouraging to see the vindication all these years later. I may have fled from the skeptics/atheist movements long ago due to all this, but I treasure the friends I made, that Very Very Vicious Crowd I am super proud to have been a part of.
I hope this helps all of us listen to marginalized voices earlier and not wait for such an epic mic drop to see it clearly.
Let’s keep fighting for what we believe in in these spaces, in academia, and in our world. <3
kellymsays
It’s satisfying that Sir Richard Dawkins, not unlike J.K. Rowling, was incapable of living his life in luxury, adored by a myriad of intelligent, enthusiastic fans. He insisted on revealing his misogyny, transphobia, racism, stupidity, and that he’s a a child rape apologist. That will be his enduring legacy, and I hope it burns his metaphorical soul.
I wasn’t on the social scene much, but I remember abandoning a couple blogs and YouTube channels when they went over to bigotry. These days I tend to prefer the label of “irreligious” over atheist because of how many atheists revealed themselves as no better than the religious bigots I wanted to escape.
rorschachsays
Rebecca Watson was on a panel, with Richard Dawkins, and spoke about this shit. And literally 12 hours later we had Elevatorgate. While Dawkins and Pauly Kirby were taking leasure walks around Dublin. These were the days. I’m on YT with Dawkins debating some Islam creationist dude, but I’m so glad this can not be found easily these days.
stevewatsonsays
Oh yes: I also have a couple of books autographed by people I no longer have much use for.
I was there too, I mean not physically present, but following the movement from afar with optimism and cheerleading. I was with you. And all of your peers. Like so many others, I really believed in this movement and was a fan. I did not know better. As sad as I am about its demise, I was also proud to keep on sticking with you being on the right side of history. You personally helped me stay on the right path and steer clear from the madness that was consuming the movement from within. You and Rebecca. ❤🩹
(This is a copy of my comment YouTube; I apologize for double posting – I am upset)
PZ, Watching your video on ‘All the regrets’, I understand your dismay. You should not ‘volunteer’ for guilt by association, when you’ve not contributed to the problems. One thing I’ve learned is we should not put people on ‘hero’ pedestals and you/we should not castigate ourselves if we make an honest mistake of association with what we hope is a just cause that upon closer examination is terrible.
You have, for years, not expressed or participated in the egregious words and deeds of these miscreants. You abandoned the derailed atheist movement and have expressed honest support of the rights of women, the LGBTQ community and all classes of decent people.
I really like and respect you and Rebecca Watson. I don’t think she was pointing at you when she wrote about all the corruption in that movement.
I thank you for your honesty. I trust that you will remain a decent, caring, honest, secular humanist. That’s all any of us can do.
CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captainsays
Oops. My QEDcon comment in the Watson thread would’ve fit better in this one.
kestrelsays
All I can do is thank you for running this blog for all this time. When I realized what was going on I wanted to leave the forums and so on that were what I knew of the skeptic group and decided to come to your blog, despite being told how “mean” commenters here are. I have never found that to be the case, and the people who told me everyone here was “mean” have apparently never been on the internet. Instead of finding “mean” people here, I have seen you speaking up for those who do not have a platform or the power to speak up for themselves. I just so appreciate this. I’ve read this blog pretty much every day since 2009. All we can ever do, is the best that we can with the information that we have at the time. You did not have the power to stop these people from being despicable; they accomplished that all on their own. When you did see it clearly, you got out and condemned it. And had to pay quite a price for your public stance. I commend you for that.
You have nothing to apologize for, PZ. As far as I can tell you have always been on the right side of things, that’s why I keep coming back. That and for the good biology, keep that coming as well.
Here’s the thing (which I’d like to think we’ve figured out by now).
Atheism by itself is nothing. An organization where that’s the sole principle is doomed. It’s like trying to make an organization or a movement out of people who don’t like dogs; once the topic of conversation gets off of dogs, you have no idea where it’s going to go. You’ll find yourself in a roomful of people who are all over the map on other issues, some in some rather horrible places (e.g. Curtis Yarvin).
Also for most atheists, it’s not actually the defining principle of our lives, i.e., not believing in god(s) or not finding the concept useful is usually going to be a side issue. Which means people inspired to put in the work on the unglamorous nuts & bolts to keep an organization devoted to just that issue running, useful, and on track will be few and far between.
If the point is to oppose theocracy, or defend educational standards, or call out destructive aspects of (certain) organized religions for what they are, or try to supply needed alternatives for the kinds of services/support that people tend to think only organized religion can do, then DO THAT. Those are all far more substantive and worthy goals.
Also, they’re all different, so you want to be clear about what you care about.
James Tsays
Long time reader, first time commentor (I think, been reading for 20+ years). When I first started reading Pharyngula the new atheist scene had just gone mainstream. I was maybe 18/19, I like to think there was no chance of me failling into the ‘alt-right’ cesspool that the ‘skeptic’ scene slowly turned into but who knows. At that age you can be really vulnerable to grifters. Yours and Ed Brayton’s writings played a huge a part in ensuring that didn’t happen. Cheers to you and Ed!
stevewatsonsays
@31: Hence PZ’s war on Dictionary Atheism of about 15(?) years back, though IIRC he was still trying to make the word do the heavy lifting, which I think is a mistake. Those other issues are IMHO better wrapped up using terms like Humanism (though I’ve got plenty of beefs with many self-identified Humanists these days, but that’s another thing to be depressed about).
Also: I often peruse the CFI magazine Free Inquiry, and there are always a few religion-debunking articles in the mix. I get the feeling that topic has been talked to death: half of those articles are rehashes of stuff that has already been said (often better) by others, and the other half are silly — some amateur spouting history or Biblical criticism that they don’t understand. The main lesson I get from the “Journal of Secular Humanist Ideas” is that some secular humanists have rather silly ideas. Atheism per se seems like it has run out of things to talk about.
A lot of folks were conned by those supposed thought leaders, but PZ, you were one of the first ones to jump off the ship as soon as you saw the cruelty unmasked. You even tossed a “grenade” at Michael Shermer as you went over the railing.
It’s good to see this “confessional” video though, because it proves your honesty and the shame you (and many of us in the readership) rightly feel by any association with that cabal, which is a true sign that you deserve trust. And good job Rebecca Watson. Watched her video a short while ago and naturally had to check out Pharyngula to see what you had to say about it.
Here’s a recent post from Digby’s blog (H/T Tom Sullivan & Anand Giridharadas) that provides a good explanation of what they call The Epstein Class:
https://digbysblog.net/?s=epstein+class
We all have different personalities, obviously, but I don’t feel shame about Dawkins, Shermer, Krauss, etc., because I had no influence on them or their decisions. The emotion I feel is white-hot fury that these people ended up thoroughly betraying the values they pretended to represent.
Thank you, PZ.
golly
that got alot of responses on the ytub
👍
.
In fairness, PZ, I remember you calling out Shermer as soon as you found out he was a rapist.
At this point, I wasn’t shocked to find out how many of these people were in the Epstein files, I was shocked at how moronic they sounded, and about how gross these organizations were. Sure, I’m not going to judge people for the opened of their relationships, but it’s super inappropriate to put the people you’re fucking on the side in charge of your foundation.
it’s painful but useful sometimes to catch a monkeywrench in the feels. reflecting, was there something wrong with the atheoskeptic movement even at its best, in the noble words they said in the light of day? is atheist evangelism a thing we should be doing, and if so, how should we be going about it? was that it?
reminds one of athesim plus, that idea atheism alone ain’t hackin it. as you are well aware. weren’t you the guy who came up with “dictionary atheist” as a label? i don’t recall. but clearly atheism plus wasn’t working. i hopped on that ship two minutes before it sank.
so what should a progressive atheist movement be like? if it should exist at all? having heavy doubts is a good thing, as long as you can get to a good place in the wake of them.
When our community did experience Deep Rifts, let’s at least have some encouragement that we did not stick with the side that promoted perverts and pedophiles.
Atheism is still a worthy cause.
You may feel you did not do enough—but I am sure many are grateful for what you did do.
By the way, in Melbourne in 2012 you and Mary both met my partner Emma, while I was still boymoding as Pope Maledict (to allude to a previous ScienceBlogs and FTB nym). We finally got married on 27 January just gone. We both watched your video and then Rebecca’s (sort of reverse order, but forgive us, we’re Antipodean). And I too remember most of the various allegations Rebecca brings up.
Thanks for being one of the good ones, PZ. Love to Mary.
@9 I too met PZ at Melbourne in 2012 – I’m sure he won’t remember meeting two (me and a friend) Australian Atheist Zoologists…
I have never understood why atheism needed self-appointed “leaders” anyway.
PZ distanced himself the momen he knew enough.
Now, it is time to strenghten alternative networks for Americans who dislike the theist hegemony. The task is made easier by the religious right being fettered to the MAGA corpse. Look forward and try to be optimistic despite the current shitshow.
lasius, these days they’d be called influencers.
People like to follow. Why celebrities perforce become pundits.
I have been a skeptic since 1980 and an atheist since 1996. I was never asked and never wanted to attend any meetups, conventions, parties or whatever. I am at best a fellow traveler. I never knew of any of the behind the scenes machinations because I was nowhere near the scene, in front or back. It should go without saying that I would have been dead set against any of it had I known at the time. PZ, I appreciate your need to express your feelings of guilt regarding this, but I also feel you should not treat yourself too harshly.
Xanthe @9,
good on you, congrats!!!
All of this is not an atheism problem, or a skepticism problem. It’s a societal problem, rich and powerful people doing amoral things because they feel entitled to it and rarely have to fear any repercussions for their actions. What I found revealing about this latest batch of releases was how many scientists and academics coddled up to Epstein and so desperately wanted to be part of his world.
From what I saw at the few conferences I went to, I have a feeling this is not the end of the revelations. Some people have not been mentioned yet, and I do remember wondering at the time, why, let’s say, a 50yo author would have breakfast with 5 what looked like 18year olds. This movement saw a lot more abuse I think, in the Epstein files or not.
And now that the atheist movement is dead, we hand the world over to the primitive savages who wallow in superstition like an animal rolls in shit!
The movement is dead, but the principles live on. We just have to reassemble organizations in which the chief qualification for leadership is not having fucked Richard Dawkins.
I just realized…no wonder I never had any position of responsibility in any of them!
It’s been frustrating to have all this go unacknowledged for so long, and it’s been encouraging to see the vindication all these years later. I may have fled from the skeptics/atheist movements long ago due to all this, but I treasure the friends I made, that Very Very Vicious Crowd I am super proud to have been a part of.
I hope this helps all of us listen to marginalized voices earlier and not wait for such an epic mic drop to see it clearly.
Let’s keep fighting for what we believe in in these spaces, in academia, and in our world. <3
It’s satisfying that Sir Richard Dawkins, not unlike J.K. Rowling, was incapable of living his life in luxury, adored by a myriad of intelligent, enthusiastic fans. He insisted on revealing his misogyny, transphobia, racism, stupidity, and that he’s a a child rape apologist. That will be his enduring legacy, and I hope it burns his metaphorical soul.
I wasn’t on the social scene much, but I remember abandoning a couple blogs and YouTube channels when they went over to bigotry. These days I tend to prefer the label of “irreligious” over atheist because of how many atheists revealed themselves as no better than the religious bigots I wanted to escape.
Rebecca Watson was on a panel, with Richard Dawkins, and spoke about this shit. And literally 12 hours later we had Elevatorgate. While Dawkins and Pauly Kirby were taking leasure walks around Dublin. These were the days. I’m on YT with Dawkins debating some Islam creationist dude, but I’m so glad this can not be found easily these days.
Oh yes: I also have a couple of books autographed by people I no longer have much use for.
I was there too, I mean not physically present, but following the movement from afar with optimism and cheerleading. I was with you. And all of your peers. Like so many others, I really believed in this movement and was a fan. I did not know better. As sad as I am about its demise, I was also proud to keep on sticking with you being on the right side of history. You personally helped me stay on the right path and steer clear from the madness that was consuming the movement from within. You and Rebecca. ❤🩹
(This is a copy of my comment YouTube; I apologize for double posting – I am upset)
PZ, Watching your video on ‘All the regrets’, I understand your dismay. You should not ‘volunteer’ for guilt by association, when you’ve not contributed to the problems. One thing I’ve learned is we should not put people on ‘hero’ pedestals and you/we should not castigate ourselves if we make an honest mistake of association with what we hope is a just cause that upon closer examination is terrible.
You have, for years, not expressed or participated in the egregious words and deeds of these miscreants. You abandoned the derailed atheist movement and have expressed honest support of the rights of women, the LGBTQ community and all classes of decent people.
I really like and respect you and Rebecca Watson. I don’t think she was pointing at you when she wrote about all the corruption in that movement.
I thank you for your honesty. I trust that you will remain a decent, caring, honest, secular humanist. That’s all any of us can do.
Oops. My QEDcon comment in the Watson thread would’ve fit better in this one.
All I can do is thank you for running this blog for all this time. When I realized what was going on I wanted to leave the forums and so on that were what I knew of the skeptic group and decided to come to your blog, despite being told how “mean” commenters here are. I have never found that to be the case, and the people who told me everyone here was “mean” have apparently never been on the internet. Instead of finding “mean” people here, I have seen you speaking up for those who do not have a platform or the power to speak up for themselves. I just so appreciate this. I’ve read this blog pretty much every day since 2009. All we can ever do, is the best that we can with the information that we have at the time. You did not have the power to stop these people from being despicable; they accomplished that all on their own. When you did see it clearly, you got out and condemned it. And had to pay quite a price for your public stance. I commend you for that.
You have nothing to apologize for, PZ. As far as I can tell you have always been on the right side of things, that’s why I keep coming back. That and for the good biology, keep that coming as well.
Rorschach @ 15,
thanks muchly! :) Hope you’re doing well.
It is dispiriting times to be living in for sure, but memories of the good people did will endure.
“but memories of the good people did will endure”
The good people, and Chloe ;)
@8 “Atheism is still a worthy cause.”
Here’s the thing (which I’d like to think we’ve figured out by now).
Atheism by itself is nothing. An organization where that’s the sole principle is doomed. It’s like trying to make an organization or a movement out of people who don’t like dogs; once the topic of conversation gets off of dogs, you have no idea where it’s going to go. You’ll find yourself in a roomful of people who are all over the map on other issues, some in some rather horrible places (e.g. Curtis Yarvin).
Also for most atheists, it’s not actually the defining principle of our lives, i.e., not believing in god(s) or not finding the concept useful is usually going to be a side issue. Which means people inspired to put in the work on the unglamorous nuts & bolts to keep an organization devoted to just that issue running, useful, and on track will be few and far between.
If the point is to oppose theocracy, or defend educational standards, or call out destructive aspects of (certain) organized religions for what they are, or try to supply needed alternatives for the kinds of services/support that people tend to think only organized religion can do, then DO THAT. Those are all far more substantive and worthy goals.
Also, they’re all different, so you want to be clear about what you care about.
Long time reader, first time commentor (I think, been reading for 20+ years). When I first started reading Pharyngula the new atheist scene had just gone mainstream. I was maybe 18/19, I like to think there was no chance of me failling into the ‘alt-right’ cesspool that the ‘skeptic’ scene slowly turned into but who knows. At that age you can be really vulnerable to grifters. Yours and Ed Brayton’s writings played a huge a part in ensuring that didn’t happen. Cheers to you and Ed!
@31: Hence PZ’s war on Dictionary Atheism of about 15(?) years back, though IIRC he was still trying to make the word do the heavy lifting, which I think is a mistake. Those other issues are IMHO better wrapped up using terms like Humanism (though I’ve got plenty of beefs with many self-identified Humanists these days, but that’s another thing to be depressed about).
Also: I often peruse the CFI magazine Free Inquiry, and there are always a few religion-debunking articles in the mix. I get the feeling that topic has been talked to death: half of those articles are rehashes of stuff that has already been said (often better) by others, and the other half are silly — some amateur spouting history or Biblical criticism that they don’t understand. The main lesson I get from the “Journal of Secular Humanist Ideas” is that some secular humanists have rather silly ideas. Atheism per se seems like it has run out of things to talk about.