Here’s the problem. The Democrats think it’s OK to murder Palestinians, but also think trans people should have rights. The Republicans think it’s OK to murder both Palestinians and trans people.
It’s not much of a dilemma, because of course I can’t vote for Republicans, but I can support part of the Democratic position, so I’ve got to vote Democratic party all the way down the line. It would make me much happier, though, if we could see some opposition to Israel’s genocidal actions.
I was surprised to see this evidence that anti-trans rhetoric is a key part of the Republican strategy.
They’ve spent almost $30 million on an ad that says Harris is providing humane social support to trans people in prison, which they think is deplorable, but I think is a point in her favor. Their second biggest focus is on immigration — they’re against it, I’m for it.
Their entire platform is built on hatred for non-white, non-straight people. Again, this is a crappy dilemma, because of course I’m pro-Democrat then.
Except that I wish voting for Harris didn’t also make me feel like I’m giving tacit approval to genocide.
I have the same feelings. I will be voting for genocide stained shit weasels. And voting against fascist, nazi, overtly, explicitly bigoted shit weasels.
And the genocide stained shit weasels have implicit fascist and bigotry issues because we are a shit weasel nation.
Note: the repugnantcant spending has nothing for healthcare. They are sponsors of the fraud of medicare corporate ‘disadvantage’ and putting women’s health at risk and completely in the hands of rtwing ahole politicians and xtian terrorists.
As I’ve said (endlessly) there I’ve been friends with and worked with many decent Jews and Muslims. But, harris has signaled she is going to continue biden’s billions in funding the zionist Israeli genocide of people in gaza, lebanon, syria, etc.
I am registered as a democrat. I will vote against tRUMP.
I am angered at the stupidity, violence and deceit on the part of the corporate democrap machine. It is almost as corrupt as the corporate repugnantcant machine. I like Tim Walz. We’ve supported Bernie and the squad because they show honesty and compassion.
Moses mofo johnson and the elongated muskrat, along with too many others, are dangers to society
All the lies, deceit, threats and violence just further prove to me that society is mostly a failed experiment.
(well, that was cathartic for me)
One more item,
PZ wrote: ‘They’ve spent almost $30 million on an ad’
I reply: One of the biggest problems with our system of elections is that billionaires and special interest hate groups spend millions to try to buy elections. And, the drooling masses are guided by that. THIS IS OBSCENE.
There should be no influence money in elections. There are ways to stop this, but the corporate billionaires that own this miserable country wouldn’t allow it.
This is a recurring frustration for me. “Oh, I can’t vote for Harris because I’d be condoning genocide.” Except: you don’t have a choice! Any action you take via electoral politics is going to condone genocide, because the US position on Israel is baked in at levels which simply can’t be touched by electoral politics. Both the Democrats and the Republicans are going to continue the system that is in place when it comes to Israel.
And, as a citizen, whether you vote or not, you’re complicit! Yes, it sucks! It sucks, but what are you going to do about it? Not voting isn’t going to change the calculus, and in fact, makes the calculus worse for you: if you’re not going to vote because of this one issue, or you’re going to vote on a non-hope third party, or worse, you’re going to vote Republican- why should they court you? You’ve just basically told the establishment that you can be safely ignored.
And, at the end of the day, you can be safely ignored because you’re not doing anything worth paying attention to you. Because again: you can’t fix these kinds of problems via electoral politics. You need an organized labor movement that makes it difficult or impossible for the logistical support to continue. This means that disinvestment protests are a good start- and then targeted actions that disrupt the war machine are the next. Sitting around and whinging about “both sides are bad” accomplishes nothing but stroking your own ego.
Or, to put it another way: the Democrats are a cancer that must be eradicated from the body politic. But the Republicans are a sucking chest wound. They’re both going to kill us (and a lot of other people), but one of them is doing it on a much faster timeline and needs to be addressed first.
We can all still point out Israel has a concentration camp, and Trump wants them too.
The way I see it, the Democrats are sad about it and will maybe consider putting in a speed bump or two on the road to genocide. The Republicans are happy about it and will put in an 8-lane expressway.
When I disagree with both candidates on an issue, the question becomes “Who would I rather try to persuade?” Or even “Who would I rather protest against?” From this viewpoint, the choice is clear: only one candidate has threatened to use the armed forces against protesters, and he happens to be the same candidate who is repulsive on every other issue.
A vote is the expression of a preference as to the choices one has, not a statement of absolute approval. And that’s an easy choice. The Palestinians will get a much better deal out of Harris than they would out of Trump.
Even a cursory glance at history shows that our ruination as a society has been in the works for many centuries. It’s scarier now because first, well, here we all are, and second, our scientists and engineers have finally worked out the means to make it reality. This pipe dream of love and altruism for all is simply not in our genetic makeup and never has been. We’re a sophisticated version of the Precambrian predator that spent its days out-competing others of its kind in the hunt for things to treat as worm food. Welcome back to the jungle, everybody.
First, I share your frustration with Democrats’ vacillation regarding Israel’s genocidal war of conquest in the West Bank and Gaza. But let’s be realistic here: Israel’s Likudnik leaders have made it clear that they’re going to wage this war with or without America’s acquiescence. I’m not sure pulling out all military and financial support from Israel will save that many lives, or make Israelis less determined to grab more land. They’re in conquest mode, have been for years, and possibly couldn’t stop even if they wanted to.
Second, I’m hearing that Biden, and probably Harris, while publicly paying lip service to Israel, are quietly considering him less than a loyal dependable ally. A good bit less. I’d love to hear both of them say so publicly, but I can understand why they’d avoid doing so, at least until after the election.
Third, and most important, however bad or complicit in genocide you think Biden has been, a re-elected Trump would be far worse — both because he’s a flaming racist leading a party of flaming racists who WANT Israel to kill as many heathen savages as possible; and because he’s a petty, stupid, small-minded grifter, who was never able to comprehend anything bigger than his own immediate gain, who would, in all likelihood, be totally okay with any campaign of extermination if he or any of his princelings could get a Gaza-coast casino/resort or some such as part of the deal. (Jared Kooshner has already spoken plainly about such a prospect.)
Whatever issues you care about most, it is vitally important to have a sane, functioning adult in the White House making the big decisions; even if we don’t end up agreeing with all of them. (And it’s not like the non-functioning-adult would ever have given us a better decision on anything.)
There’s an important distinction missing from this. While much of the Democratic coalition is “OK” with killing Palestinians, much of it isn’t, and it’s that tension that forces Netanyahu and his allies to exercise some restraint. Republicans, on the other hand, are pretty much in agreement that the IDF should “finish the job,” by which they mean the total extermination of the Palestinian people, and they’re eager to provide Netanyahu with the means to do just that.
Now, I know our dimwitted trolls will cry that there’s no difference between the two parties’ positions, but the fact is that the combined, unrestrained might of the Israeli and US military turned against Palestinians would mean the death of pretty much everyone in Gaza and the West Bank. Within a couple of months, all who would remain would be those Palestinians living outside of those areas. Those Palestinians living in the US would quickly find themselves branded “the enemy within,” to be hunted down by the military or paramilitray death squads along with the rest of us “vermin.”
So, yes, the Democratic position on Israel’s on-going genocide is awful, but the Republican position is much, much worse. And yes, it’s true that Republicans also intend to exterminate gender-non-conforming people, too.
I share PZ’s dilemma almost exactly. The last time I considered, even briefly, voting for a Republican was about four years ago in a Republican primary. (There’s what seems to me to be a cogent argument that, in a heavily gerrymandered place like Missouri, the only election that actually matters is the favored party’s primary.) I actually looked at all the candidates’ websites at least; but I couldn’t tell them apart. They were all guns for Jesus, Critical Race Theory, and “protecting girls’ sports”. This year, Critical Race Theory has been replaced by “the immigration problem”.
I share Raging Bee’s hope (end of second paragraph @10) that, if Harris wins (by no means guaranteed), the narrative around Israel could change somewhat after the election. (There’s also the possibility that Harris dislikes Biden’s kowtowing to Israel, but as the sitting Vice President, can’t really disagree with him in public and possibly screw up an ongoing negotiation. I don’t consider that likely, though. More likely is that Netanyahoo won’t budge until he sees the outcome of the election.)
I’ll paraphrase a deplorable human being who happened to say something correct/relevant:
“You can’t go to war with the army you want, you have to go to war with the army you have”
There is only 1 way to vote: Democratic Party for their largely sane policies, but some of which I find repugnant (and their ability to actually get things done, at times, is like herding cats) – and maybe can be persuaded away from supporting Israel blindly- versus the current MAGA GOP/ American Nazi Party who would likely encourage an escalation of the conflict in the Middle East, but in addition leans towards a cornucopia of deplorable positions/plans for this country’s future, a desire to grow a plutocratic oligarch class, a disdain for human rights (and blatant racism that considers anyone who isn’t a male CIS-HET WASP (or WASPish) as something less than human–and who is currently led by a demagogue/ wannabe dictator with a metaphorical axe to grind and a literal list of enemies from which he seeks ‘retribution’. Hold your nose and vote for Harris
A number of others have been speculating that a good chunk ow why there’s so much money going into dunking on trans issues in this election is a result of Musk actively joining the Trump Team, because trans issues are a very personal grudge with him as a result of his reaction to his daughter, and he’s willing to throw lots of money at petty revenge for the way he’s been called out on this by said daughter.
Musk’s thin-skinned reactions to criticism fit right in with Trump. (See how, even before he bought Twitter, he spent months accusing the British caver assisting the Tham Luang rescue operation in 2018 of sexual tourism and paedophilia because said diver had the temerity to tell Musk what he could do with his untested and probably unworkable submarine. Accusations based on literally no more excuse than ‘why else would somebody like him be in Thailand?’)
I feel the same way as P.G. of course I will be voting for Kamala and Democrats, but as the lesser evil, This election is making me sick; I fear that the Orange Monster will win. But there seem to be so many stupid bigots in this country out for blood, no matter how it goes the suffering of the people of Gaza and other places will go on. I too will hold my nose and vote for Harris, and I hope many others will too.
I’ve written about this as well, and have similar feelings to PZ, though mine are perhaps less harsh on the Dems. They are definitely not doing what I would do, but also I am entirely unelectable.
It is objectively true that the Biden admin is the first to even attempt to hold back Israel’s attacks on civilian populations in even the smallest degree. And while I strongly dislike that they’re doing this only in the smallest degree, the fact that they’re doing it at all is a sea change (Thanks, Shakespeare!) in US policy.
That tells me that there’s room to push the next administration even farther toward peace, farther towards opposition to war crimes targeting civilian populations. (I’m under no illusions that they’ll actually stand up to Israel if Israel commits war crimes against armed Hamas fighters, but they might be willing to hold back crimes against civilians just a bit.)
We won’t get there anytime soon. It’s sick that that’s true, but I strongly believe it’s true. But Trump actively encouraged settlements in the Occupied Territories and would do nothing to hold Israel back in the current conflict.
I don’t agree with Biden’s policy, but I can still note that Biden’s policy is already better than what Trump’s would be, and I’m not exactly sure what Harris’ policy would be, but she’s making the right noises if you want to hear that she might go farther than Biden in restraining Israel. Again, not far enough, but farther than the US has ever gone.
For me, this dangerous, fucked up war is a reason to vote for Harris, not something to ignore on the way to voting for Harris.
…even before [#QElon] bought Twitter, he spent months accusing the British caver assisting the Tham Luang rescue operation in 2018 of sexual tourism and paedophilia because said diver had the temerity to tell Musk what he could do with his untested and probably unworkable submarine.
It’s even worse than that: Tham Luang said no to #QElon’s sub for the purely practical reason that it would not fit inside the cave where the kids were trapped — and I’m pretty sure Luang had said so at the time. Which makes #QElon’s “OK pedo” response even less excusable than it would otherwise have been. #QElon had made a perfectly reasonable offer to help with a rescue, the guy in charge had said “thanks but that won’t work here,” and #QElon could have just said “okay, call me if I can be of any help” and looked like a decent adult…but he wasn’t grown-up enough to even try to look grown-up.
For me, this dangerous, fucked up war is a reason to vote for Harris, not something to ignore on the way to voting for Harris.
Exactly — it’s one of the biggest reasons why a petty little crybaby who’s been in the pockets of foreign plutocrats for years is the LAST person we need in the White House.
I wish the US would adopt the Australian vote. Preferential voting means we can have more than two choices, more varied platforms, and no fear of “splitting the vote”.
I refuse to give much, if any, weight to party labels — both parties, and especially the behind-the-scenes gatekeepers who “prescreen” who can even get onto a primary ballot (let alone the general election). This time, there’s a clear lesser evil, and it’s not inherited wealth and a history of overt civil rights violations while in office. <sarcasm> When even Cthulhu turns down the Vice Presidential slot because “the top of the ticket is too extreme,” there’s something very wrong. </sarcasm>
For those with long memories and more awareness of the world than the average
victimgraduate of American secondary education, this election should very much remind you of the Chilean constitutional referendum in 1980 and “retention” referendum in 1988. Not even those who intended to vote for the incumbent (at least outside of Santiago) liked him, but “Better the devil we know”…It’s also really important to remember that in a representative democracy, we elect people — not policies, nor unwavering-my-mind-is-made-up-don’t-confuse-me-with-the-facts commitment to particular policies. Character matters — especially evident willingness to listen to new (or at least new to them) facts and reasoning, even when that change went against a voter’s preferences.
@19 Strongly agreed. Political radicalisation is much diminished here in Australia because we have preference voting. For instance, the QAnon loonies have perfectly “good” third parties like One Nation that let them voice their moronic concerns, so the centre-right LNP doesn’t have to pander to them explicitly in the way the Republicans do.
Today, an IDF soldier admitted that the IDF is using Palestinian civilians as human shields in Gaza. CNN very carefully reported this as “a violation of international law” vs, say, actually calling it a war crime.
Democratic politicians, at least, are concerned about the optics of the situation, even if they don’t care about the actual plight of the Palestinians or Lebanese. Republican politicians fantasize about a (possibly nuclear) war with Iran.
Moral calculus to the rescue:
The “Kamala Harris is not Trump” position far outweighs any issues one has with the positions of VP Harris and the Democratic party.
As a neighbour to your north I’m getting tired of being jerked around by the deranged US political system every 4 years with smaller shit shows every 2 years so stop fucking about and get rid of this guy.