Accurate.
A quick guide to Israel’s PR methods:
1. We haven’t heard reports of deaths, will check into it;
2. The people were killed, but by a faulty Palestinian rocket/bomb;
3. OK we killed them, but they were terrorists;
4. OK they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields;
5. OK there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose;
6. OK we kill far more civilians than they do, but look at how terrible other countries are!
7. Why are you still talking about Israel? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
Test this against the next interview you hear or watch.
Adam Johannes, Secretary, Cardiff Stop the War Coalition
Unfortunately, the Stop the War Coalition is good on genocide in Gaza, couldn’t give a shit about genocide in Ukraine.
KG @ 1. There is nothing like what is going on in Gaza going on in Ukraine. However, bad Ukraine happens to be.
And as if on command another tankie joins in to hold the torch for the Putenführer and his genocide in Ukraine.
You lot don’t care about Gaza and the Palestinians anyway, you just try to virtue signal how ideologically pure you are but are too stupid to notice that this fails when you so obviously root for teams and not for principles.
There are currently fewer people being killed in Ukraine than in Gaza, but it’s not for want of trying – it’s because the military imbalance between the two sides is considerably less. It’s absolutely clear to anyone who takes the trouble to find out that Putin intends to destroy the very idea that Ukrainians have a right to exist as Ukrainians. That is the very core of genocidal intent. If Putin succeeds in conquering Ukraine, those Ukrainians who do not succeed in fleeing west and do not agree to “become Russians” will either be killed, or deported to remote regions of Russia and replaced by ethnic Russians.
You’re an arrogant arsehole, aren’t you? How the fuck do you claim to know the motivations of “you lot” – whoever that phrase is supposed to cover?
Who’s “you lot”? Should be obvious from what I wrote. Hint, it’s in the first sentence.
AugustusVerger@5,
I apologise – I should have seen that.
The difference is that the Ukrainians are allowed to take up arms to fight against their those invading their country.
The Palestinians, on the other hand, when they take up arms to try to expel the invaders who took their land, they get called “terrorists” and lecturing by comfortable, condescending Western libs about how to “properly” oppose oppression.
Gee, I wonder why? (Cough…racism…cough.)
Akira MacKenzie@7,
More than that – in the case of Palestine, western states (above all the USA) are arming the invaders, while in the case of Ukraine they are arming (although inadequately and with unnecessary restrictions) the invaded.
I don’t think this excuse is going to work.
The current number of Palestinians killed by the Israeli IDF is over 40,000, mostly civilians, mostly children and women.
Accidental deaths of 40,000 people over an 11 month period aren’t accidental.
If you know you are killing civilians and you don’t stop, then you are deliberately killing civilians, you know it, and you don’t care.
This is like claiming the 1 million Vietnamese civilians we killed in Vietnam were accidentally killed.
They were victims of the war but there was nothing accidental about how and why they were killed.
The point out to be is that we SHOULD be condemning BOTH Russia AND Israel and defending BOTH Ukrainians AND Palestinians.
But we don’t.
QFT.
Well, some of us do – in the UK, polls indicate that the sympathies of majorities are on the right side in both cases, although admittedly an even larger majority do nothing, or nothing much, about it.
The first comment is a complaint that other countries also do bad things, so apparently steps one through five may be considered optional.
[I am, for the record, capable of being against both Israeli and Russian aggression- “I am large, I contain multitudes.”]
The first comment is quite clear. It alleges that the people who wrote this list that accurately condemns Israel, don’t condemn Russia.
And they don’t. The Stop the War Coalition demand that the UK government stop arming Ukraine, ie that the UK let Russia commit genocide unimpeded.
KG @1, the list in the OP was written about Israel’s tactics in 2004 (or perhaps 2008), when Israel had committed some atrocity or other (they’ve done so many that I’ve lost count.) I’m sorry that I don’t have the link where I read that.
That post was to compare Israel’s PR with what they’re still saying these 20-something years later.
I’m rather thinking that the difference between the wars is that the one in Gaza is a genocide (for ex., starving all those civilians to death), while the one in Ukraine hasn’t degenerated to that (yet.)
I mean, that this sarcastic yet correct list of Israel’s PR tactics was supposedly written in the oughts, therefore couldn’t mention Ukraine.
Not that Stop the War isn’t advocating Ukranian genocide now, just that that wasn’t an issue then.
Russian intent and rhetoric make it clear that they intend genocide. Isn’t the first time, for Russia and Ukraine – read Bloodlands by historian Timothy Snyder about the WWII period.
It’s not even the second time.
The Russians, led by Stalin, deliberately starved the Ukrainians into submission in the 1930s with the famines.
It’s estimated 3.9 million Ukrainians died in Stalin’s famines.
You know you’ve hit the big leagues in genocides, when your genocide gets its own name.
The Holodomor translates into English as “Death by Hunger.”
Is this an instance of #3 or a new variant?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/sep/10/israel-gaza-middle-east-crisis-war-live-israeli-strike-airstrike-khan-younis-humanitarian-zone-al-mawasi
Big controversy in Canada today is that a candidate in a by-election has stated an opinion on the war in Gaza and the flyer includes a picture of gasp the Palestinian flag.
The Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs is blasting him for daring to discuss foreign things. Because, you know, only they get to do that. Not candidates for elected office.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/craig-sauvé-palestinian-flag-pamphlet-1.7317357
I already voted for the guy and have been working his campaign for months.
garnetstar #15
It doesn’t matter. The fact is that they call out genocide only when it’s done by the opposing “team”. They do not oppose genocide on principle but on who’s perpetrating it. If Israel was aligned with Russia and China, they’d have thrown their lot behind Netanyahu instead and told the Palestinians to surrender and accept their fate.
You can take the list from OP and easily convert it to Russian apologia but the difference is that then they’d present it as gospel truth.
# 3
Lives lost defeating Hitler in WWII:
United Kingdom 383,600
United States 416,800
Soviet Union 8,800,000-10,700,000
Source:
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/students-teachers/student-resources/research-starters/research-starters-worldwide-deaths-world-war
The bigotry tolerated on Pharyngula is nearly physically sickening.
I don’t think the evidence for the Russian genocide is as strong as Israeli. I don’t think it’s even close. You have people on the Israeli side talking about how not enough civilians in Gaza have died to make them fully scared of Israel or debating whether raping Gazan prisoners is ok or openly talking about pushing Gazams off to another country to settle their land or actually cutting off their water and electricity and saying that “we are dealing with human animals”.
lotharloo@22,
Start with Putin’s bizarre pseudo-historical essay from July 2021 ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians” (warning: this is on an official Russian site and is not https – it can be found elsewhere). Then, you may not watch Russian official TV propaganda on the war (I’ve given up doing so), but there have been numerous calls for partial or sometimes complete genocide there, as well as the ludicrous lies about Ukraine being run by “Ukronazis” – take a look around here. Large numbers of Ukrainian children have been kidnapped from occupied areas of Ukraine, and forcibly adopted into Russian families, while ethnic Russians have been moved into occupied areas, particularly Crimea. Civilian homes and infrastructure have been relentlessly targeted by missiles. Returning PoWs (swapped for Russian PoWs held by Ukraine) have almost unanimously reported ill-treatment, often torture, and attempts at indoctrination. The atrocities Russian troops carried out in Bucha came to light because the area was recaptured by Ukraine – there is no reason to believe they were in any way exceptional. Now the overall aim is somewhat different from that of Israel – Putin’s aim is to kill only those Ukrainians who cannot be Russified, but as it is turns out, few can be, and the evidence for the intention of eliminating a distinct Ukrainian identity and willingness to kill as many Ukrainians as this requires is absolutely clear.
Silentbob@21,
Calling Putin “the Putenführer” is not bigotry of any kind, any more than describing Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman as “Crown Prince Bone Saw” is anti-Arab bigotry, or Netanyahu as a war criminal is antisemitism. Putin is indeed behaving like a somewhat less impetuous version of Hitler, and has done so ever since he came to power, starting with the Second Chechen War. With a small number of courageous exceptions, his aggressive war appears to have widespread support and near-universal acquiescence within Russia, and there are numerous reports from early in the war of Ukrainians with relatives in Russia finding that Putin’s lies are accepted by those relatives, despite their evidence in contradiction.
In addition to that, I think you’re somehow forgetting a few historical facts:
1) The “Holodomor” – the deliberate starvation of millions of Ukrainians by Stalin in the mid-1930s.
2) The Hitler-Stalin Pact, which allowed Hitler to launch his invasion in the west, after dividing north-central Europe (Poland and the Baltic states) with Stalin. Note that Stalin, unlike Lenin, is a hero to Putin and his supporters. Both the Holodomor and the Pact are edited out of history.
3) A large number of the Soviet deaths you mention were Ukrainians, who suffered proportionately more than any other Soviet nationality, both during the war (as troops in the Red Army and as partisans) and after the war (when many were punished not just for collaboration – which did occur – but simply for being taken prisoner or managing to survive Nazi rule).
Silentbob makes the common mistake of equating Russia with the Soviet Union. Most of the Soviet Union were victims of Russia. The UN made the same mistake when they allowed Russia to take the Soviet Union’s place in the Security Council. That was an expensive mistake in terms of peace and safety..
@22. lotharloo : “I don’t think the evidence for the Russian genocide is as strong as Israeli. I don’t think it’s even close.”
In addition to what ^ & #23 KG has noted, Foreign Affairs online mag (?) has a dedicated article titled ‘Why Russia’s War in Ukraine Is a Genocide’ :
Source : https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/why-russias-war-ukraine-genocide WARNING : Semi-subscriber-walled can only see that opening bit. Grrr….
Plus in a BBC article :
Also from later there :
Source : https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61017352
Oh and there’s a wikipedia page too natch WARNING page contains graphic image of aftermath of war including guresome victim photo :
Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
There certainly seems to be a case which has been described as “quite likely”that Putin’s Russian invaders are committing and intend to committ genocide in Ukraine.
Of course, if you don’t think what Putin is doing in Ukraine is bad enough, do feel free to go there and see the reality for yourself and ask the various Ukrainians fighting for their nation and culture’s survival what they think of your views. I’m sure they’ll be comforted to hear your asessment that its really not that bad..
(Does that really need a sarc tag?)
@21. Silentbob : “The bigotry tolerated on Pharyngula is nearly physically sickening.””
What bigotry exactly?
Putin is a dictator who is slaughtering his own people as well as Ukrianians.He is a notorious mass murerer of internal opponets eg Aleksandr Litvinenko, Anna Politkovskaya, Sergei Magnitsky, ad nauseam.. See list here – a list that of course Putin keeps adding to.
As well as all the latest generation of Rusian soldiers sacrificed ina war and this time a war that wa seasily avoidable and could be ended at any time if Putin decided to admit defeat and stop.
https://www.rferl.org/a/enemies-kremlin-deaths-prigozhin-list/32562583.html
Putin is NOT all of Russia anymore than Biden or Trump is all of the USA.
What the former Soviet Empire under Satlin did – sacrificing Ukrainian as wellas Russian and other lives in WWII is true but relevant how exactly here?
Accusing people of being bigoted against Russians for criticising and mocking Putin makes as much “sense” as accusing people of being bigoted against South Africans for criticising and mocking Elon Musk or Americans for criticising and mocking Donald Trump.
Comrade Silentbob, are you clutching your pearls that tightly whenever one of your fellow tankies goes “Genocide Joe” on Biden? After all, according to your standards that’s displaying “sickening” amounts of bigotry against US Americans.
I admit I’m biased and prejudiced against totalitarian fascist dictators that wage genocidal warfare and destabilize countries around them by supporting fascist cancer cells within. Fucking sue me if you don’t like that.
@KG, SteveoR:
The claim is not that there is no evidence for Russian doing genocide in Ukraine. The claim is that there is an order of magnitude more evidence for genocide in Gaza by the Israeli government.
For example, I searched to see what your expert from the article you shared, Mr Alex Hinton, says about the war in Gaza. If we are to apply the same standards, and if by these standards Russians are doing a genocide then it should be beyond reasonable doubt that the Israeli government is doing a genocide. This is what Mr Hinton has to say about Gaza:
https://theconversation.com/both-israel-and-palestinian-supporters-accuse-the-other-side-of-genocide-heres-what-the-term-actually-means-217150
Blah blah blah. He says nothing. Apparently, when white people are killed, “OMG, it’s a fuckg genodicke!!!!! STokpppp!!!” But when it’s brown people, it’s “You see, war is terrible, very sad civilannsss die, me no like, but i scholar, i studiez, let’s look at def. genocicede in diktionary”. You can shove these experts where the they came from.
lotharloo@30,
There is conclusive evidence in both cases. Why do you have a problem admitting this?
@30. lotharloo : So you don’t respect and want to listen to the people whose field of relevant expertise it is? Who – in short -know what they are talking about?
If we don’t listen to experts then who do we listen to? Are all opinions then equal and everyone gets to assess the various wars and genocides and Crimes against Humanity for themselves? I agree evidence has to count as the most important thing and I do think its worth listening to those who have relevant backgorund and knowledge in the pertinent fields here..
FWIW I would agree what is happening in Gaza and what is happening in Ukraine both qualify as genocides. But I am not an expert & will defer to those who are. Then again, they don’t allagree and their minds change with time and new evidence and events and so on and so forth and a-n-y-h-o-w.
I also do not think it is a good or reasonable idea to pit these genocides and situations against each other as if one justifies the other or one being somehow better or worse than the other is significant. Y’know, getting into Oppression Olympics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppression_Olympics ) as if that’s some sort of worthwhile exercise at all. What is gained and lost by quibbling over which group of human individuals, which cultures, which peoples, which situations have it the very worst and making some sort of ranking of individual horrors, death, destruction and human loss, suffering and misery? Is this scream of heart-broken anguish from this child more or less real and significant and important than that howl of torment and greif from that child? Fucks sake.
All genocide is bad, all should be stopped ASAP. No amount is permissible. Kinda by definition really.
@KG:
You are the asshole who derailed this thread by bringing up a different topic even though one, US and Westen media have no problem calling Russian actions genocide, two, condemning Russia, three, sanctioning Russia, four, giving military and economic support to Ukraine while at the same time they dodge the genocide question in Gaza, and arm the side who is doing the genocide.
Why do you have a problem sticking to the topic and discussing the relevant topic at the relevant thread? Why bring up a group of nobodies who have no power whatsoever?
Because as it stands, not calling Russian actions genocide is not the fucking problem.
@steveoR:
Too many words to dodge the issue that some (a lot) of Western European scholars have a serious problem seeing the genocide in Gaza. I could agree to disagree with a lot of people except those who call Russian actions genocide and yet somehow can’t see it in Israel.
Er… I didn’t “bring them up” – it was someone writing on behalf of that very “group of nobodies”, Stop the War Coalition (StW) who wrote the letter to the press which PZ placed at the head of the thread. This group of nobodies’ hypocrisy is therefore entirely relevant. They are, unfortunately, influential on the left in the UK, and that hypocrisy undermines left criticism of our government’s connivance in Israeli genocide, since it exposes that criticism to the charge that crtics are hypocrites and stooges of Putin – as indeed, in the case of StW, their leadership at least are: StW call for the end of the supply of UK arms to Ukraine i.e., they side with Putin.
And I notice you still can’t bring yourself to acknowledge that evidence for genocide is conclusive in both cases. Why is that?
Bringing up the actual nature of the Cardiff Stop the War coalition is not at all irrelevant. I knew nothing about the group, so I thought the context was helpful.
PZM@35,
I was a member of Stop the War for years (I seem to be still on their mailing list), but eventually (some years before Putin’s invasion of Ukraine) became disillusioned with the leadership, notably Lindsey German and Andrew Murray, both of whom are unable to perceive any imperialism other than that of the USA and its allies. I’d note, BTW, that they are not quite a “bunch of nobodies”: their officers, steering committee and patrons include quite a number of people well-known in the UK (some of whom I’d have considerable respect for apart from their StW roles), and some (such as Jeremy Corbyn, Ken Loach and Brian Eno) who are reasonably well-known internationally.
@KG.
Ah I see. Really sorry about that, I missed that the image came from there, I take back the criticism.
Unfortunately some leftist both haven’t read enough of their lenin and also have the same brainworm that makes lots of Americans forget the USSR collapsed over 30 years ago.
lotharloo@37,
Apology accepted. I made a similar blunder @4!
A disturbing number of commenters on this blog are uncomfortable about any criticism of Israel. So uncomfortable that they derailed an Israel thread to talk about Ukraine instead, which does read like #6 in Israel’s style of PR. A false equivalence between what’s happening there and the misery being inflicted by Israel in occupied Palestine only serves to confuse, distract, and demobilize any anti-Zionist opposition.
I get that it’s uncomfortable to discuss a genocidal Zionist regime that uses explosives designed to maximize shrapnel, tearing bodies apart and maximizing suffering. It’s uncomfortable to talk about a regime that methodically targets hospitals to maximize death and suffering, that sends tanks into Gaza to crush the wounded and bury them alive before their death, that uses some of that genocidal biomass to construct a nearly useless pier on the coast (useless but for the fact that it was useful as a launching point for an attack on a refugee camp), that cuts off all food and fuel into an occupied area, that routinely corrals victims into “safe zones” and then bombs the camps — burning people alive, that won’t let UN convoys into the occupied area for a planned polio vaccination campaign (presumably to help spread polio instead of eradicating it when we have the chance), that employs mass starvation to maximize death and suffering, that employs torture and mass rape of its Palestinian prisoners, and, let’s not forget, a regime that could not have done any of this without the active facilitation and military support of Genocide Joe and his administration. They were not stopped in Gaza, and they have expanded their genocidal campaign into the West Bank.
This was supposed to be a thread to talk about these things. Feel free to add any more examples of Zionist industrial-scale anti-humanity that I may have overlooked in my hasty attempt to be comprehensive, which has left me disgusted with the pretense of Western values.
I’m uncomfortable about shitheads like you, comrade beholdrikov, who think whether genocide is acceptable depends entirely on who’s doing it. You for one think Putin’s genocide in Ukraine is praiseworthy because you are on Team Putin, while you condemn Israel for theirs because they’re not on Team Putin.
@ beholder : “A disturbing number of commenters on this blog are uncomfortable about any criticism of Israel. “
Nonsense.
It is? It does? Not vice-versa too? Maybe its an actual valid equivalence and comparison? Who gets to say and why?
Would Trump be better? No. Trump would be vastly worse and the Repugs have a real racist hatred for Palestinians, Arabs generally and are Islamophobic as fuck.
Would any POTUS have failed to support Israel after October 7th? No.
So why do YOU keep arguing genocide denialism when it comes to Putin’s invasion of Ukraien here? Why are you defending Putin to the point of accusing people of bigotry for mocking Vlad the genocidaire?
@ 37. lotharloo : Respect. You get more respect fromme FWIW for that.
@30. lotharloo : Minor point sorry but Hinton’s piece linked was written on or just after Nov 6th 2023 – not even in a month in – so is out of date and it has since become much clearer since then that Gaza is a genocide. It wasn’t as clear when Hinton wrote that.& be surprised if he still thought as he writes there.
A disturbing number of commenters on this blog are uncomfortable about any criticism of Russia.
Bekenstein Bound, you (well, this nym) is newish here.
Innuendo. Insinuation.
No names named.
No specifics mentioned.
No quotations adduced.
(Bah)
If you refer to regulars, that is.
This sort of vague shit-stirring is indicative of something, but that something excludes directness and, um, credibility.
Two facts for you:
Immediately after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, this blog featured a number of posts and the consensus quickly was established. A solid consensus from every regular.
Same sort of thing happened with the Gaza retribution for Hamas’ provocation, and same sort of solid consensus.
The odd tankie (such as semi-regular JKRideau) was quickly swamped when trying to post Russian talking-points.
Anyway.
(You wouldn’t know, would you — unless you’ve, say, perused the archives of those topical posts and their discussion threads)
@ Morales
Would you specify examples of “Russian talking-points”, and explain what you take “tankie” to mean? Genuinely curious.
@ John Morales, #44
beholder, who made this statement (#40)-
-is one of the brave defenders of poor, maligned Russia. beholder comments here with some regularity. Hence, I believe, Bekenstein Bound’s dig. I’ll also add The Vicar, with whose comments I believe you are familiar, is another fan of Putin. beholder has praised The Vicar for telling the “truth” about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in past threads.
I don’t for one instant believe your supposed basis, Silentbob.
The one thing you are not is genuine.
Still. <clickety-click>
Here is an example: https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2022/03/11/russia-has-wacky-conspiracy-theorists-too/#comment-2125810
Another, from Mano’s blog: https://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2022/10/16/odds-on-truss-leaving-office-before-end-of-the-year/#comment-5096832
(You were there, despite your claimed curiosity)
@ Morales
I’m sure it’s well established I couldn’t care less what you think of me so we’ll leave that aside.
Your first link says:
Is your claim it’s a “Russian talking-point” to keep Ukrainian research out of Russian hands? That doesn’t seem to make any sense at all.
Your second link says (indirectly, following the links from the comment):
Are you claiming it’s a “Russian talking-point” to accuse a former UK prime minister of not taking Russian concerns seriously?
I remain completely unedified as to what you are calling “Russian talking-points”. It seems a simple question. Can you express these “Russian talking-points” in your own words?
You completely ignored my question as to what you believe a “tankie” to be. Any response or will you continue skulking off with your tail between your legs?
Yes.
A bare-faced lie, as indicated by your complete failure to identify a single one. I introduced the topic of Ukraine @1 because the source of the summary of Israeli PR methods – in itself excellent – comes from an organisation which rightly condemns Israeli genocide in Gaza, but de facto supports Putin’s genocide in Ukraine. I am personally active in organisations which condemn and take action against both.
Silentbob@49,
The Russian talking point at John Morales first link appears in the OP (in a quote from Howard Altman):
and also in John’s comment #14:
Fucking ridiculous nonsense from official Russian sources.
@steveoR:
I would argue it was at least as clear as the Russian case. “We are dealing with human animals”, and “cut off their water, electricity” was already out in October. But I suppose many tens of women and children were not dead by November yet.
I also tried to find a more recent article. So far Alex’s position is … silence and the article that I shared which basically said, “lez look up def. genodicde in dict! genogice can be many thing! Some day geno when many pple dedz. But there is definition! I scholar!” which was basically saying that it is not a genocide.
He in fact shared that article on linkedin and some professor dude has commented on it “I am sure you didnt pick this photo. Whoever is hanging this placard around their next needs to look up what genocide is in the dictionary”, referring to someone holding a placard saying “stop the genocide in Gaza” and Alex responds, “that’s what the essay is about”.
I am not on X and I will not be bothering to find out what Alex has been saying there but at least on linkedin, he is sharing awards that he has been receiving about his work on genocide studies.
Hey, Tankybob Redsquarepants, your fellow tankie comrade beholder called Joe Biden “Genocide Joe” again. According to your impeccable moral standards, that means he’s expressed disgusting bigotry against the US.
Come and call him out for that!
@52. lotharloo : Fair enough. That does surprise and disappoint me. I did try some googling myslef and he is a legitimate award winning professor and prolific author – no fb page I could find but he does have a wikipage :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Laban_Hinton
Who I would expect better from.
FWIW via Genocide Watch :
Source : https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/genocide-is-never-justifiable-israel-and-hamas-in-gaza
(Spacing edited altered for readability.)