I guess we aren’t supposed to worry. ‘Judeo-Christian’ roots will ensure U.S. military AI is used ethically, general says.
A three-star Air Force general said the U.S. military’s approach to artificial intelligence is more ethical than adversaries’ because it is a “Judeo-Christian society,” an assessment that drew scrutiny from experts who say people from a wide range of religious and ethical traditions can work to resolve the dilemmas AI poses.
Lt. Gen. Richard G. Moore Jr. made the comment at a Hudson Institute event Thursday while answering a question about how the Pentagon views autonomous warfare. The Department of Defense has been discussing AI ethics at its highest levels, said Moore, who is the Air Force’s deputy chief of staff for plans and programs.
“Regardless of what your beliefs are, our society is a Judeo-Christian society, and we have a moral compass. Not everybody does,” Moore said. “And there are those that are willing to go for the ends regardless of what means have to be employed.”
Fills me with confidence, that does. After all, we have a long history of devout Christian soldiers always being ethical.
Hey, the Nazis were part of a Christian society, you know.
Also, an Air Force general? Totally unsurprising.
»Judeo-Christian« = »Christian, but please don’t think of me as an anti-Semite«. Which doesn’t always mean the speaker is one…
For some reason, I intially read his job title as “the Air Force’s deputy chief of staff for plans and pogroms.” Can’t imagine why…
This is
not good signa very bad sign..Herman Kahn was the model for Dr. Strangelove and a genocidal crackpot.
His most famous work was to point out incorrectly that nuclear war was no big deal.
Herman Kahn’s best contribution to the world was to die relatively young at 61 in 1983.
Have you accepted Skynet as your personal Lord and Savior?
This is an extraordinary claim that requires a lot of proof.
There isn’t any.
We aren’t the worst society on the planet but not the best either.
One of our recent accomplishments of many (this is sarcasm) was to follow up the pointless slaughter of the Vietnam war (1 million dead Vietnamese) with another pointless slaughter in Iraq during the Bush disaster.
The current heirs of the Nazis, the Russians with their attempted genocide of Ukraine, are also the current champions of “Judeo-xianity” having the state religion of Orthodox xianity complete with a KGB agent as its head.
Whenever you hear about the “Judeo-Xians” and their moral compass, you need to run. It usually means a huge pile of dead bodies is going to be the result.
The xians have killed tens of millions over the millennia in one war and/or genocide or another.
My Protestant ancestors fought in the Reformation wars against the Catholics, which included…my other ancestors.
I wonder how would Moore reconcile his Judeo-Christian society ethics with the horrors of what occurred at Abu Ghraib by US troops?
And remember to always use a small “j” when writing it out so it will show the respectable portioning for it as part of the creed.
Larry @ # 7: … how would Moore reconcile his Judeo-Christian society ethics with the horrors of what occurred at Abu Ghraib …
He would pray about it. Same as with the horrors of _____, _______, _____, _________, etc.
Air Force Instruction 1-1, chapter 2.12:
2.12. Balance of Free Exercise of Religion and Establishment Clause. Leaders at all levels
must balance constitutional protections for their own free exercise of religion, including
individual expressions of religious beliefs, and the constitutional prohibition against
governmental establishment of religion. They must ensure their words and actions cannot
reasonably be construed to be officially endorsing or disapproving of, or extending preferential
treatment for any faith, belief, or absence of belief.
https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_cc/publication/afi1-1/afi1-1.pdf
Since he feels that he outranks both the constitution and Secretary of the Air Force and Secretary of Defense, time for a court martial and demotion, then removal from service with loss of pension.
Because, 3 stars do not outrank a suit.
Make an example of a few, with them losing pensions, when they squeal about religious persecution, make it plain to even the deaf that regulations, Constitution and the rule of law are paramount and only chaplains may preach religion while under color of official capacity.
Dunc @ 3, my first thought as well when I read the article and posted about it on Infinite.
Akira @ 5, no can do, Skynet is too busy worshiping my RegEx equation that ran it out of memory parsing.
raven @ 6, the Constitution spends great amounts of ink over the Reformation wars. The prohibition of corruption of blood and writ of attainder, most of the Bill of Rights all dedicated to preventing abuses that contributed to and helped continue those wars, as it literally remained part of living memory at the time.
When I read “Not everybody does [have a moral compass],” my first thought was, “Yeah, like the Orange Turdbucket.” I’m sure Moore wouldn’t mind serving under him again, though.
Larry @ 7
You remind me, there are credible allegations thsy RonDeSantis- then an officer- laughed at the torture victims at Gitmo.
(see The Nation)
But I am sure his campaign spokesman says he is the bestest Christian there is.
Yes I can just imagine the Judeo-Christian “Jesus for Trump” brigade putting their morals or lack of them in charge of the nuclear arsenal. Nothing to worry about at all.
A compass with the directions mismarked is worse than useless.
garydargan @ 13, what, you can’t trust the guy who wanted to nuke a hurricane?
Perhaps Lt Gen Moore and members of the Hudson Institute should ask the native peoples of North and South America and the black African people brought to the continent as slaves for their assessment of how “Judeo-Christian” moral principles were applied in practice.
It is interesting that “civilized” warfare has rules about who we can kill. Those rules don’t have teeth, but they exist.
It’s like rules for a game. If you can get away with holding, then it’s part of the game.
Back in the day, the barbarians killed everyone, but now we need an infrastructure to make a profit after we’re done killing people.
Here is the Bible, 1 Samuel 18:7, “Saul has killed his thousands, but David his tens of thousands.” In context, this is supposed to be seen as a point in David’s favor.
I could cite a hundred other examples. Any one who talks about the Bible as a moral guide is seriously screwed up.
seversky @ 16
At least slaves were taught new skills that would help them later in life, according to Desantis. Help them, assuming they were freed and hadn’t been lynched or encounter some other kind of Judeo-Christian love.
@18 joel says: Any one who talks about the Bible as a moral guide is seriously screwed up.
I reply, you nailed it. The bible as a moral guide is full of murder, war, genocide, raping, pillaging.
These warmongers slapping people with bibles are really just shoveling shit.
I love it when those who lean antisemite include the Judeo- prefix to disguise their Christian chauvinism.
Exactly. If slaves were taught new skills it was because it benefited the owner not the slave. If you had a black slave trained in blacksmithing, you wouldn’t have to pay a white blacksmith to shoe your horses. What might happen in later life didn’t come into it at all.
Finally, AI has been born again.
In a book by Stanislaw Lem- I think it was Star Diaries- we learn if a world with robots. It turns out they had killed a missionary because they followed the logic of what he preached literally.
Becoming a martyr guarantees a place in heaven. Killing condemns you to hell , but in the other hand you are supposed to put the welfare of others first. And since the robots loved the missionary they martyred him in the painful ways he had described other martyrs had suffered.
Lesson: robots and religion don’t mix well.
stuffin @ 23, so it’s stuck in a loop?
birgerjohansson @ 24, can I hire some of those robots? At least to answer the phone and door…
Howard Brazee @ 17, so a corporation made money off of prisoners of war after the war? Who, the aspirin company, because I’m getting a headache.
shermanji @ #20 — You left out the lying. I strongly suspect the whole Judaism and subsequently Christian thing are a scam. The traditions surrounding them are either part of the scam or the result of people being taken in by the scam.
A science fiction story I read once may fit in here, I don’t remember who, maybe a Bolo story from Keith Laumer. Two soldiers in a foxhole are discussing the end of their war. A machine will come around and destroy the weapons. In the end the machine comes and turns its guns on them.
Now I think this was in a magazine at about the time of the end of the Vietnam war,
Followup, If any one remembers this story I would appreciate directions to find it.
I guess he doesn’t expect the Spanish Inquisition.
nomdeplume @ #29 — NO-body expects the Spanish Inquisition!
How do you code Judaeo-Christian ethics? How do you code ethics, full stop? Ethics requires a level of cognition that most humans can’t demonstrate, much less machine learning. It’s going to be a long time before you’d be able to trust an autonomous weapon to not kill civilians, or blow up a hospital.
@31 “Chrstian ethics” to me, is the anti-thesis to anything anyone with a remotely intact conscience is able to call “ethical”. Chrsitanity is first and foremost the Stockholm Syndrome within the world of religiotic ideas…
Oh, I dunno. There’s what they profess, and there’s what they do.
The varieties of Christianity encompass the moral spectrum, though their applied ethics never ever matches to their theoretical ethics, except for the truly special ones. But then, people are imperfect, no?
(Even atheistic Dawkins is a self-declared cultural Christian)
—
But yeah, the USAF is hardly an exemplar of the virtues preached in the Sermon on the Mount. None of this turning the other cheek stuff.
Actually, I have yet to meet or hear about a Christian who in practice does the cheek-turning thing.
Theoretically, one could apply a cheeky slap-test to determine who actually is a practicing Christian — practically, though, I don’t recommend that.
(Then there’s supposedly some Commandment about not killing)
Judeo-Christian Ethics? Would that fit under oxymoron?
Given that the US military has deliberately and knowingly bombed hospitals and clinics more than any adversary the United States has fought against, I’m gonna say that maybe the Judeo-Christian ethic guiding our armed forces decisions is fucking evil.
@34
I would give that one a thumbs up if there was this function, “not killing” , “turning the other cheeck” are anything but a Christian idea, and Jesus (if he ever existed) was a madman, who among “nice” things also showed at times how he “descended” from his perverted evil “father”. The bible is , I would argue along with the Quran one of the few books I would never show to kids, it tops every work of fiction or nonfiction in terms of cruelty etc.
@33 Almost as if ethics and morals are not a religious idea and can be entirely detached from it, a scular idea! No that cannot be, what would we do without gawd? More sin: more abortion, more gayness, more trooonz, more freethought! A scandal! And I fail to see what senile TERFboy Richie has to do with that? Is that some argumentum ad vericunidiam from you? I am not “cultural Christian”, so what ?
As with other religions, there are cultural aspects to Christianity, not just religious aspects. And Dawkins is basically an epitome of utter atheism, in the religious sense, but a Christian otherwise. cf. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7136682.stm
(You ever hear the interjection ‘Jesus!”? Cultural Christianity, right there)
BTW, jeanmeslier, your namesake was a priest who lived a priestly life, and kept his atheism secret to be revealed only posthumously. Or: a cultural Christian.
@39
You think I do not know that? Mesliers ideas and his life story are one of the reasons why I am not only atheist ,but anti-theist, along with the deplorable, cancerous influence of Xtianity in present day, especially in the so called “Land of the Free”
Yes, of course there are cultural aspects, but I would still not call myself a cultural Chrisitian, but “solidly secular” all along. If you are a Christian in any sense, well that is something you have to take up with yourself. I just hope you have a better understanding of “religious freedom” than Sammy Medievalito. And for Richie Terfkins, the guy has playd exactly no role in my experience of explicit atheism, and I am nowadays even more glad he did not. So I still do not see why he even needs to be brought up..at all
BTW about the last sentence in the OP: Alfred Rosenberg and other Grand Nazis were very interested in harnessing the lunacy of the Jesus cult for their purpose and Adolf the Most Terrible himself made references to Christianity himself in speeches from time to time
jeanmeslier, it’s not complicated.
There was no need, but it helpfully illustrates the point you are not quite grasping exists — the cultural aspect of Christianity, which works in the context of the “‘Judeo-Christian’ roots” of the USA.
The term connotes the religion, but doesn’t exclude the culture.
So, Dawkins said “This is historically a Christian country. I’m a cultural Christian in the same way many of my friends call themselves cultural Jews or cultural Muslims.” , which is essentially the same thing as that general saying the USAF has ‘Judeo-Christian’ roots.
@42
to me what you are trying to infer here sounds an awful lot like what regressives say :”the US IS a Chrstian country! So we get to dictate our religious nonsense on all people whether they want or not! Separation of church and state ?Sin!”. I have read this blog for quite some time as a “lurker” and haven’t gotten the impression that you are 1)anti-secular 2)anti-choice 3)Christian 4)anti- LGBTQ 5) anything else that marks you as a regressive autoritarian nutjob , I have only seen you what I’d describe as trolling” at times, but this thread has casted some doubts for me at leastt. I could be totally wrong and I assume I am at least partially …
Makes me think of season 3 of “Person of Interest” where the human avatars of the two waring AIs face off and discuss the ethics of their own positions.
jeanmeslier, perhaps you confuse what I quoted with what I personally expressed.
You asked, I answered.
Ah well, Russia is likewise, so no doubt that general accepts Russia shares the same moral compass as the USA.
cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Cathedral_of_the_Russian_Armed_Forces
@45
1st part: yes, I said I could be wrong.
2nd part: the head of the Russian Orthodox Church is the clerical-fascist arm of Vlad the Terrible , so you’d expect as much…
Christianity is fundamentally unethical. The idea of sacrifice to take on the sins (scapegoating, literally) is an indicator that christians do not understand how “sin” and removal of “sin” might work. And then there’s the 3rd party remission of sins: if I wrong Mark, the only person who can ‘forgive’ me is Mark – not Jesus, or the pope, or anyone else.
Christian’s moral teachings seem to mostly encourage them to murder other christians, muslims, and – of course – jews. I suspect when air force dorkhead says the AI will have christian values, that’s what they mean: occasional pogroms carried out at lightning speed.
Marcus Ranum #47
I find the concept of “forgiveness” ridiculous.
The only entity capable of actual “forgiveness” must be a god.
I have never “forgiven” my elementary school teachers.
@26- 27 charles :
I’ve heard of & read a few different takes on space missionaries but not that one & my google- fu finds :
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/464042.Bolo
&
https://www.goodreads.com/series/49232-bolo
Plus this :
https://darkworldsquarterly.gwthomas.org/bolos-relics-of-war/
which has a synopsis of various stories. Skimmed through & can’t find an exact match and note Keith Laumer also has a wikipage too listing his book titles but no luck – still hope this helps.
Maybe someone with better google-fu than me or who also recalls reading that can find more?
PS. Keith Laumer’s wikipage here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Laumer
So Keith Laumer died that long ago. A pity.
His ‘A Plague Of Demons’ anticipated Terminator in terms of nearly unstoppable hostile androids.
He had visited Sweden back in the days when titles were still a BIG thing, as I can see from one story passing through an alternative-universe Sweden.
As for ethics and religion I have little to add to earlier comments.
birgerjohansson:
Not even slightly. Quite different.
More like Anne McCaffrey’s The Ship Who Sang, except for the consent part.
(or Dreadnoughts from 40K)
Point is, this is about giving agency to AIs, where people imagine they can actually both have AI and a deterministic deontology when they operate on their own, not about Mi-go Brain Cylinders.
Stevor, thanks for your effort. I’m inclined to think this was in a magazine, around 1974. Maybe not a major author and maybe not in any collection.
I suspect you could find several stories with similar outlines.
John Morales, reading Ancillary Justice, I wondered if only the protagonist
representing “Justice of Toren” sang or if the AI being the ship directed the singing.
“Civilized” war has rules, you know.
After all, we don’t want to hurt the ability of our conquered land to make us money.
@40 jeanmeslier said: I would still not call myself a cultural Chrisitian, but “solidly secular” all along.
I reply (at the risk of inciting troll flames): I admire your moral stance. For years, our organization has researched, struggled with and, as a consequence, often avoids the complete inadequacy of titles and names as being, almost without exception, subject to misinterpretation, corruption and abuse. We recognize what is referred to as ‘secular humanist morality’ as independent from, and superior to, any religious moral code. When talking about spiritual vs cultural, we see the only difference as being the element of superstition vs. dogmatic. As we wrote: While we respect religious people whose words and actions are highly ethical, moral and decent, and recognize any proven factual historical events in religious works, we reject all supernatural claims, deities and religious superstition. We declare that we are pacific in nature and abhor violence (both physical and verbal) as a wasteful, destructive endeavor.
Ah, Meslier. An exemplar for the posthumous courage of one’s convictions, especially the bit about priests (the ones still around after his death, I guess) deserving disembowelment.
He did have a lot of good points though, and it’s too bad Voltaire distorted them for his own reasons.
Bloody Frenchmen, eh?
Before engaging in battle, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) instructed his soldiers:
Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person. (Sunan Abu Dawud)
Do not practice treachery or mutilation. (Al-Muwatta)
Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees. (Al-Muwatta)
Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food. (Al-Muwatta)
If one fights his brother, [he must] avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam. (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)
Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)
Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle. (Sahih Bukhari; Sunan Abu Dawud)
Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you [are forced to] encounter them, exercise patience. (Sahih Muslim)
No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire. (Sunan Abu Dawud).
Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil. (Al-Tirmidhi)
Of course the vermin of ISIS were ignorant of these. But so we’re the Crusaders and today’s modern armies including the US military and of course the most “moral” army in the world, Israel’s