Just another American with guns

A terrible mass murder in Las Vegas: at least 20 people are dead when a man opened fire on a country western concert. The murderer was a local man named Stephen Paddock, who has since been killed by the police. Reports indicate that he was using some kind of automatic rifle, which you’d guess from the fact he killed a score and wounded at least a hundred, and that a search of his hotel room found even more weapons that he’d left behind. Also, the media is naturally calling him a “lone wolf”, since he’s white and so can’t possibly be a terrorist fed conspiracy theories.

So will this be the final straw that convinces the US to implement some kind of rational gun control?


The New York Times is reporting that the death toll has reached 50.


  1. says

    Of course not they need their guns to protect themselves from the terrorists not the “Lone Wolf” who is across the street and 32 floors up.

  2. says

    On top of that; it was clearly a military automatic weapon. I heard one of the first videos taken on scene, and it was sustained fire for 10 seconds, no breaks. That speaks to extended mag or drum mag.

  3. birgerjohansson says

    Predicted NRA response: If everyone was carrying around a military assault rifle all the time, mass shooters could be killed before they have killed more than… ten, twenty, tops.

  4. Saad says

    Tashiliciously Shriked, #5

    “So how, exactly, would they have fired back? The shooter was in a window on the 32nd floor of a hotel. Just spray and pray?”

    Well, room service would be packing too.

  5. Saad says

    The only reason I wish there was a god is so I can pray to it that someone doesn’t show up here to turn this discussion into an argument about the nature of the gun used.

  6. mykroft says

    I don’t have to listen to the news to know how the Republicans will respond:
    – The man must have been mentally ill. The problem is not with guns.
    – If you start talking about gun control, it’s too soon. You’re being disrespectful to the victims, politicizing a tragedy, etc.

    From Breitbart and InfoWars: This was staged by people who want to take away your guns. It’s the gun control people, they’re the real problem.

    The topper would be if they will find out this guy read some of the inflammatory social media being posted by the Russians, and acted on it. Then we’d see the Republicans running around in circles, screaming “fake news”, “fake news”!

  7. bojac6 says

    The argument is going to be that the gun was already illegal, therefore no laws and be changed. And no, we shouldn’t enforce the laws or provide adequate means of enforcement either, that’s a violation of the second amendment. Here endeth the discussion.

    Repeat the next time.

  8. jrkrideau says

    # 4 birgerjohansson
    If any of the concert-goers had been carrying their shoulder-mounted missiles then things would have been fine.

    I think you have not grasped how safe a well-armed citizenry makes you.

  9. Matrim says

    Looks like he killed himself rather than be killed by police. The wounded are now estimated at 400+, though I suspect most of those are likely due to the panicked crowd. It’s a real mess.

  10. jrkrideau says

    So will this be the final straw that convinces the US to implement some kind of rational gun control?

    Didn’t someone shoot up a congressional baseball practice a while ago?

    If self-preservation is not enough to implement sanity, a shooting in far-away Utah or Colorado or wherever this “Las Vegas” is found is unlikely to have an effect.

  11. What a Maroon, living up to the 'nym says

    Can we just repeal the Second Amendment? We’ve known for over 200 years that Madison and Jefferson’s romantic views of the militia were misguided.

  12. handsomemrtoad says

    Well, I hate country-western music, but this seems like an overreaction.


    Here is a demonstration of the surest, most effective way to use your gun to prevent yourself from being victimized:

  13. davidnangle says

    I can’t imagine what America will be like with this trend growing worse every day, and I can’t envision any possible path to reversing it. I don’t believe, even with Democrats in every political office in the Federal government, that any effective legislation is possible.

    I’ve tried my hand at writing science fiction, but I just can’t picture where we’re going. Will every police car be an MRAP? Will armed police drones be authorized to shoot anybody with a gun in hand? Will the top 50% armor up like some video game characters? Will it become impossible to discuss shootings in the media because the one corporation that owns all media forbids it? Will it become illegal to discuss shootings at all? Will crimes be invented for people that aren’t shooting other people?

  14. birgerjohansson says

    You have to practically wipe out the party supporting NRA enablers, the way the East European countries practically wiped out the communist parties at the polls once free elections became possible.
    Provided American voters have not become completely apathic.

  15. Dunc says

    Will armed police drones be authorized to shoot anybody with a gun in hand?

    They’ll need to get the melanin quotient detector technology worked out first.

  16. birgerjohansson says

    It occurred to me, the NRA utopia would be a Mad Max sequel, with wild-eyed crazies driving armor-plated unimogs through the wilderness. But how do we service the hardware once civilisation has gone? Do we just order more from China? And what should we pay with? I don’t see any Apple engineers staying in that version of USA.

  17. blf says

    Will armed police drones be authorized to shoot anybody with a gun in hand?

    Change that to “Will armed drones be authorized to shoot anybody?” then look at armed drones terrorizing Yemen, Pakistan, etc. Or ask Ms Manning about the contents of some of the documents…

  18. Saad says

    Fuck, any minute now he’s going to spew his vile thoughts about it on Twitter.

    It’s sad that after every tragedy, I actually hope that the president of the country doesn’t give his thoughts on it.

  19. davidnangle says

    He needs his opinion given to him by someone else. Alex Jones or Faux.

    “It didn’t happen! The flag which was false! Tremendous! Democrats sad! Gun grabbers coming!”

  20. Snarki, child of Loki says

    If only Rep. Scalise hadn’t caught a bullet in a softball practice, then SILENCERS would be readily available. Because that would have made this shooting so much better, amirite?

    Second Amendment Jeezus needs his blood sacrifices.

  21. says

    Cross posted from the Political Madness All the Time thread. Also, a follow-up of sorts to comment 28.

    Nevada is an open-carry state. Anyone can carry a gun. Hotels do not have magnetometers to screen visitors for guns. Many hotels have a no-guns policy, but no way to enforce it. Las Vegas hosts gun shows regularly.

    Republicans in Congress have the following gun-related bills ready for votes this week:
    1. A bill that repeals federal limits on the sale of gun silencers.
    2. A bill that would allow states to decide if they want to honor conceal-carry permits across state lines.

    Shortly after Donald Trump won the election, Todd Rathner, a prominent gun rights lobbyist, said gun owners were eager to “go on the offense at the federal level.” Among their top priorities was national reciprocity legislation: a law guaranteeing that people with concealed-carry permits from one state could take their guns into any other state, even if that state had stricter limits on carrying concealed weapons. Sure enough, on the first day of the new session of Congress, Rep. Richard Hudson (R-N.C.) introduced the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2017.

    Hudson, a member of President-elect Trump’s Second Amendment Coalition, isn’t the first lawmaker to introduce a national reciprocity bill that would effectively override many existing state gun laws. But his bill is broader than its predecessors. Gun advocates have typically couched the need for reciprocity as a convenience to travelers who must contend with a “patchwork” of gun laws while on interstate road trips. Hudson’s bill, however, goes far beyond making travelers’ concealed-carry permits portable across state lines. It would also force states to allow residents with a concealed-carry permit issued in another state to pack heat. Additionally, it would allow gun owners from states that do not require concealed-carry permits to carry weapons in states that do require permits. […]

    Quoted text from the link under #2 above.

  22. says

    Cross posted from the Political Madness All the Time thread.

    .50 caliber machine guns are displayed at Las Vegas gun shows.

    It’s not illegal to own a fully automatic weapon, including military grade machine guns. Instead, ownership of these weapons is restricted. […] However, guns that were owned before 1986 continue to change hands. Owners of these weapons are required to pay a fee and register them with the federal government. As of 2006, those registrations indicated that over 390,000 machine guns were in private hands in the United States. In the same year, 1,280 unregistered machine guns were seized.

    In a nation with over 300 million firearms, that makes machine guns just 0.13 percent of the weapons out there. However, it also means that there’s about one machine gun for every 1,000 Americans.

    Registered machine guns are subject to a number of rules, and sometimes stiff fees, which makes them rare in the home collections of all but the most dedicated “enthusiasts.” But one place where they are concentrated is … Las Vegas. Because of locations like this.

    The Vegas Machine Gun Experience! Get behind the trigger of a huge selection of the most legendary machine guns … Practice your 2nd Amendment right to bear arms with this adrenaline-inducing Vegas gun range package!

    And this…

    You and a companion will shoot a M4, AK-47, SAW, RPD, MP5, Thompson, SCAR, UZI, P90, G36, 1911 and a Desert Eagle all in the comfort of our private shooting range.

    The tourist machine gun business means that the Las Vegas area is particularly rich in automatic weapons. […]

  23. microraptor says

    Lynna @30:

    Wasn’t that the place where a few years ago an employee was shot in the head and killed because he gave an Uzi to a kid, and when she fired it the recoil caused her to lose control of it?

  24. says

    These Republican Senators voted against an assault weapons ban. Today, they tweeted out their prayers.

    From Marco Rubio:

    I’m praying for all the victims, their families, and our first responders in the #LasVegas #MandalayBay shooting.

    From Orrin Hatch:

    Woke up this morning to the horrifying news out of Las Vegas. Shocking and senseless. God bless the victims and their families.

    From Richard Shelby:

    Praying for the victims and the families of the victims involved in the tragic Las Vegas shooting. Thankful for brave first responders.

    From Pat Roberts:

    God bless the victims of the terrible and senseless shooting in Las Vegas.

    The bill they voted against, the 2013 Assault Weapons Ban, would have prohibited:

    … the sale, manufacture, transfer and importation of 157 of the most commonly-owned military-style assault weapons … In addition, the bill bans large-capacity magazines and other ammunition feeding devices that hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition.

    The Senators are the hollow men.

  25. thirdmill says

    The NRA should be declared a terrorist organization; it fits every element of the definition. The members of Congress who take NRA blood money should be indicated for conspiracy to commit manslaughter. And I say that as a gun owner.

    Owning a hunting rifle or a pistol for protection is one thing. Nobody who isn’t in the Army needs automatic weapons. And I don’t know why ISIS would even bother committing terrorist acts on American soil when we do such a good job of it ourselves by allowing basically anyone from off the street to get military grade weapons. Why not go the full distance and let our mentally ill have access to nuclear launch codes while we’re at it.

  26. anbheal says

    I heard on Denver radio that a few armed cops (trained, presumably, possibly with military backgrounds) were killed, as they were maintaining security at the concert. Not to make light of their tragic ends, and let us presume they were fine people — but the current meme floating about that had more concert-goers been armed, they could have fired randomly at skyscrapers and stopped the carnage is thoroughly belied by the fact that armed and trained professionals had no chance whatsoever, so a bunch of cowboy-hat wearing yahoos spraying fire around would have only killed more (and, probably left the armed guys torn limb from limb, with people assuming they were the assailants).

    The most depressing thing about all this (well, no, the third most depressing thing, after the corpses, and then the fact that we’ll do nothing about it, just wait to recycle the same tired commentary next month), is I was somehow relieved that he had shot himself, rather than the police calmly approaching in his hotel room while he was getting off another 75 rounds, talking him down, then subduing him with a mild chokehold and cuffing him, as three black chambermaids and room service waiters lay gunned down in the hallway outside, ya know, just to be safe.

  27. blf says

    Wasn’t that [Vegas Machine Gun Experience! –blf] the place where a few years ago an employee was shot in the head and killed because he gave an Uzi to a kid, and when she fired it the recoil caused her to lose control of it?

    No. The child Uzi incident was at the Arizona Last Stop gun range in White Hills, Arizona, about 100km away.

  28. archangelospumoni says

    Gun sales spiking; gun company stocks rising. Terrorist NRA kills some more citizens. The NRA used to do gun safety for us in the Boy Scouts back in the ’60s and I dare say not a single one of the NRA safety instructors ever conceived of the guns in society today.

  29. Saganite, a haunter of demons says

    I mean… what is there to say anymore, really?
    Isn’t this kind of normal? Terrifying as that may be? Something to be expected every single day? I guess the number of dead and wounded is a bit unusual, but mass shootings in and of themselves are a daily fare.

  30. Rob Grigjanis says

    Lynna @34: Worth some expansion for those not acquainted with the poem

    We are the hollow men
    We are the stuffed men
    Leaning together
    Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
    Our dried voices, when
    We whisper together
    Are quiet and meaningless
    As wind in dry grass
    Or rats’ feet over broken glass
    In our dry cellar

  31. numerobis says

    Everybody knows that if guns were banned he’d just have used a knife to kill those 58+ people and wounded 500+ from his high position. /s

    The Onion captures the absurdity by just replacing the image on its story on mass shootings. All the words are the same.

  32. The Mellow Monkey says

    My warmest condolences and sympathies to the victims and families of the terrible Las Vegas shooting. God bless you!

    Warmest. Condolences. You offer warmth like a firm handshake, a pat on the back, smiles and quiet chuckles, old jokes shared. Condolences are offered with empathy and hugs, sad eyes and shoulders heavy with the burden of trying to do something, anything, to reduce all this suffering.

    “Warmest condolences” are just hot cocoa curdling in the belly.

    I’m from Vegas, where most of my family and friends still live. I’m relieved they’re all okay–we got lucky, because a lot of locals work on the Strip–but it’s not much of a relief. It doesn’t change the numbers of the dead and wounded. For every family member I still have, somebody lost theirs.

  33. Ed Seedhouse says

    We had a genyooine terrorist incident in Edmonton Canada yesterday.

    A despicable man ran down a policeman with a rented truck, then leaped out and started stabbing him. He then left at high speed and escaped pursuit. Then he rented another truck and drove it through pedestrians until he was pursued and stopped. And he was a refugee from a Muslim country, with a Muslim sounding name.

    Some things though:

    – No one got shot.
    – No one died, not even the poor policeman that was cruelly stabbed many times.
    – The terrorist survived.
    – He was not shot. He was Tasered after refusing to exit the truck.
    – Less than ten people were injured, luckily.
    – No one died and no one was shot. The terrorist asshole will be tried for his crimes, not killed, but then
    – we don’t execute people up here.

  34. davem says

    So, what’s the magic number of people that need to die in one of these shootings, before a gun ban gets enacted? I was thinking 250 might do it. Maybe that’s too optimistic? 500? 750? 1000 dead? Surely there must be some limit? In the UK, 16 dead in Hungerford forced a tightening of the laws for semi-automatics. That was considered absolutely horrific

  35. says

    Oh, for fucks sake.

    The Gateway Pundit, a pro-Trump blog that has been credentialed by the White House, ran a story Monday morning touting a conspiracy theory and misidentifying the shooter that killed more than 50 people and injured more than 100 in Las Vegas early Monday.

    The shooter has been identified as Stephen Paddock by Las Vegas police, but Gateway Pundit ran a story headlined “Las Vegas Shooter Reportedly a Democrat Who Liked Rachel Maddow, MoveOn.org and Associated with Anti-Trump Army” that appears to be picked up from 4chan’s “Politically Incorrect” forums. […]


    As an aside, why does team Trump give press credentials to these dunderheads?

  36. says

    From Caleb Keeter, a guitarist for the Josh Abbott Band:

    I’ve been a proponent of the 2nd amendment my entire life. Until the events of last night. I cannot express how wrong I was.

    We actually have members of our crew with CHL licenses, and legal firearms on the bus.

    They were useless.

    […] We need gun control RIGHT. NOW.

    My biggest regret is that I stubbornly didn’t realize it until my brothers on the road and myself were threatened by it. […]


  37. says

    From Senator Chris Murphy, Democrat from Connecticut:

    To my colleagues: your cowardice to act cannot be whitewashed by thoughts and prayers.

    None of this ends unless we do something to stop it.

    This must stop. It is positively infuriating that my colleagues in Congress are so afraid of the gun industry that they pretend there aren’t public policy responses to this epidemic. There are, and the thoughts and prayers of politicians are cruelly hollow if they are paired with continued legislative indifference.

  38. blf says

    mykroft@8 predicted an early response would be “If you start talking about gun control, it’s too soon. You’re being disrespectful to the victims, politicizing a tragedy, etc.”

    Yup. From the Grauniad’s live blog (19:23 mark):

    The White House, however, has resisted calls to action.

    There is a time and place for a political debate. But this is a time to unite as a country, said spokesperson Sarah Huckabee Sanders.

    It would be premature to discuss policy when we don’t fully know all the facts or what took place last night.

  39. microraptor says

    davem @44:

    The Sandy Hook massacre demonstrated that as a country, there is no level of tragedy great enough that Americans will finally cry that it’s too much and work for meaningful gun control.

  40. says

    Dunderheads who are Republicans and/or Trump supporters commented on the mass shooting in Las Vegas.

    From Governor Matt Bevin:

    To all those political opportunists who are seizing on the the tragedy in Las Vegas to call for more gun regs … You can’t regulate evil.

    From MicoPrimeTime:

    Let me tell you what’s going to happen despite what you try to do to stop it. I’m going to spread that #StephenPaddock was a Muslim convert and worked with #ISIS to take out white christian Americans. And this will be the message on all Right wing airways in less than 12 hours.

    Oh, let me explain to you: @BarackObama spent 8 years blaming white people for everything wrong in the world, and he laughed and laughed, so I’m going to spend the next 30 years doing the same to his people, the Muslims. Laugh, it’s funny.

    One thing is for sure, the Russian-controlled bots that were already pushing divisive/false narratives after the neo-Nazi/KKK rally in Charlottesville will push divisive and false narratives on social media about the massacre in Las Vegas.

    Russian-controlled posts on social media have also recently backed Trump in the anti-NFL, stand for the anthem debate. Russian bots and fake accounts are also still pushing anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim topics. For reference, see the following comments on this Political Madness All the Time thread:
    1. From SC: 52, 83, 224, 227, 296, 298, 310, and 349.
    2. From me, see comment 320.
    3. From blf, see comment 398.


  41. says

    It would be premature to discuss policy when we don’t fully know all the facts or what took place last night

    A few thoughts:

    1) if you want cases where time has passed and we know the facts, there are entire graveyards full of examples by now, because shootings are nothing new in the USA, they happen so often. There goes that argument.

    2) the concern about fully knowing the facts would have at least some shred of credibility if they promised to look at policy once the facts did indeed arrive (I don’t know if they have promised this, I’m just saying).

  42. vucodlak says

    @ Rob Grigjanis, #40

    It’s worth finishing the first stanza, at least:

    Shape without form, shade without color,
    Paralyzed force, gesture without motion;
    Those who have crossed
    With direct eyes, to death’s other Kingdom
    Remember us – if at all – not as lost
    Violent souls, but only
    As the hollow men,
    The stuffed men.

    -From T.S. Eliot’s “The Hollow Men”

    This is one of my favorite poems, but I’d rather not live it. Especially the ending.

  43. Walter Solomon says

    Let me tell you what’s going to happen despite what you try to do to stop it. I’m going to spread that #StephenPaddock was a Muslim convert and worked with #ISIS to take out white christian Americans. And this will be the message on all Right wing airways in less than 12 hours.

    Ironically, It’s ISIS making the claim that Paddock converted to Islam.

  44. blf says

    Ironically, It’s ISIS making the claim that Paddock converted to Islam.

    As the Grauniad points out, that daesh claim should be taken with an extremely large block of salt (16:32 mark):

    […] The profile of the attacker alone urges extreme caution, and US officials have already said they have no evidence of any link to the group.

    Until around a year ago, Isis claims tended to be reliable. The group used carefully calibrated wording to indicate its degree of involvement of the group, and, if there was some exaggeration, there was limited outright fabrication. The group often provided proof of its involvement through videos recorded by attackers before an incident.


    [… I]n recent months Isis, facing military defeat and the loss of territories, have repeatedly made claims which have been shown to utterly unjustified. […] The group claimed a shooting in a Philippines casino in June, where the attacker was an gambler with large debts and a drinking problem. There are many other examples.

    This claim today describes the shooter in Las Vegas as a “soldier” of the Isis, who converted to Islam several months ago. This is theoretically possible of course but seems far fetched, not least because he committed suicide.

    Islamic militant groups launch “fedayeen” actions in which death is a near certainty, thus becoming “martyrs”, but they do not ever take their own lives in this way, which is seen as a terrible sin.

  45. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    I’m not so much for banning guns, as I am that range safety rules be followed by law, where failure to follow those rules do result in the confiscation of your weapons due to criminal negligence. It all starts with the premise that there are no accidental misfires, just negligent misfires. Negligent because rule 1 of gun safety is that the only way to carry the weapon in public safely, is unload, the breech open, and the ammo in a separate place away from the gun. What the NRA and Boy Scouts used to teach.
    Which means any meaningful carry is out the window.

  46. ck, the Irate Lump says

    I’m going to say something a bit contrarian: As a Canadian, I don’t think the problem with guns in America is really the “assault rifles”, but rather handguns that everyone is already tolerating. The proliferation of handguns normalized the idea that an average person needs to carry a firearm to be safe, and that this might even be desirable. Idiots walking around with military-styled weaponry are just the next logical step and escalation from normalized carry of handguns (What if I run into a thug carrying a pistol? I’ve got to have something bigger to counter that!). Accept this, and you’ll have the idiots demanding the right to open carry RPG launchers.

  47. Ichthyic says

    here’s the latest review of the effects of gun control laws globally since the 1950s:

    “Evidence from 130 studies in 10 countries suggests that in certain nations the simultaneous implementation of laws targeting multiple firearms restrictions is associated with reductions in firearm deaths. ”



    “Laws restricting the purchase of (e.g., background checks) and access to (e.g., safer storage) firearms are also associated with lower rates of intimate partner homicides and firearm unintentional deaths in children, respectively. “

  48. says

    In her opening segment tonight, Rachel Maddow talked about the number of gun shows that are held in Las Vegas. The gun shows are not occasional, they are constant. And that may be one reason that the shooter was able to put 16 guns in his room at the Mandalay without attracting attention.

    I’ll provide a link later.

  49. Rowan vet-tech says

    If we can require that, in order to operate a motor vehicle in this country, you pass a written test, be schooled for 6 months, pass a practical exam and then have to carry insurance at all times, why are we unable to do this with guns? Cars have a primary purpose of transportation, with the ability to be deadly. Guns have a primary purpose of wounding or killing something.
    I don’t want to get rid of guns, buy why the hell is everyone against even something as ‘simple’ as making the process similar to gaining access to being able to drive?

  50. thirdmill says

    Rowan, No. 61, because the NRA and its allies have convinced people that any gun regulation at all, no matter how sensible and how minor, is just a first step toward confiscation. According to them, the real purpose of any gun regulation is to get people used to the idea that the evil big government can control people’s access to firearms, with the ultimate aim of someday taking them away altogether. In fairness, there are some people who would like to confiscate all weapons and ban private ownership of guns altogether, but they are a small minority and they are as likely to actually succeed at that as they are to impose Shariah law.

  51. Azkyroth, B*Cos[F(u)]==Y says

    In fairness, there are some people who would like to confiscate all weapons and ban private ownership of guns altogether, but they are a small minority and they are as likely to actually succeed at that as they are to impose Shariah law.

    The more I talk to fucking gun supremacists, the more sensible confiscation seems. There appears to be almost as much overlap between people who feel a deep-seated emotional need to own a deadly weapon and people who should be trusted with anything more dangerous than string as one might imagine.

  52. Azkyroth, B*Cos[F(u)]==Y says

    Well, okay. Confiscation, coupled with widely available, evidence-based addiction treatment programs.

  53. KG says

    Ironically, It’s ISIS making the claim that Paddock converted to Islam. – Walter Solomon@54

    Underlining the de facto alliance between Daesh and the proto-fascist right in Europe, North America and Australasia. Both want anti-Muslim pogroms, and war between “the West” and “Islam”.

  54. cartomancer says

    How about allowing completely free and unchecked access to all firearms… that were available in 1791 when the Second Amendment to the US Constitution was ratified? You can have as many flintlock muskets, wheellock pistols, hand-cannons, jezails and breech-loading black powder field pieces as you like, but nothing more modern.

    Given that masturbatory enthusiasm for the Second Amendment seems to be the driving factor here, I think this should be an acceptable solution. What could be more authentically Second Amendment than eighteenth century firearms? The sort of pistol James Madison might have used, if he wasn’t a generally sensible chap and had better things to do than prance around shooting people.

    And since these are the sort of people who complain that things like equality for women, minority sexual orientations and the poor are not in the Constitution, so shouldn’t be allowed, I can’t foresee any complaints about banning weapons the Founding Fathers couldn’t even conceive of either!

  55. Saad says

    Nobody needs guns at all. Let’s stop pretending otherwise. No, guns have nothing to do with freedom. At all.

    If you have a shooting fetish, you can go to a range like people go to bowling alleys. You can borrow a gun there and jack off with it and come back home so innocent people can continue to live.

  56. Saad says

    The only sort of reasonable reason could be for home defense. In that case, one household can have one insured handgun with a few bullets that they are required under penalty of law to keep secured. And to purchase additional ammo, you need to provide a police report stating what happened to your other bullets. Educational programs and training should be required to with mandatory re-certification every couple of years.

    Nothing horrible will happen to anyone’s freedom or quality of life with this method.

  57. says


    I seem to recall some colonists back in the late 1700’s who might disagree with your statement about guns having nothing to do with freedom…

  58. Saad says

    John Fleisher, #72

    Yes, but almost all invasions, conquests, genocides, rebellions and wars for independence use weapons.

    How does your point relate to the topic?

  59. What a Maroon, living up to the 'nym says

    If you’re going to bring up the US Revolution, you need to deal with the fact that the first unalienable right mentioned in the DoI is life; no mention is made there of guns. Some asshole with 16 guns took away the most basic right from 59 people the other night, but then again, this is America, where about 7 people a day lose that right to assholes with guns.

  60. birgerjohansson says

    Re. @74 If you include the firearms the cops found at the asshole’s home, it is 40 firearms of various kinds.
    Perfectly normal guy upholding the second amendment (sarcasm).
    — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
    The Daily Mash has it covered: “Arm everyone with machine guns, say unspeakable bastards” http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/arm-everyone-with-machine-guns-say-unspeakable-bastards-20171003136861
    Every American should be given an automatic weapon, according to the country’s bastard pieces of shit.

  61. call me mark says

    #@72 John Fleisher

    I seem to recall some colonists back in the late 1700’s who might disagree with your statement about guns having nothing to do with freedom…

    Good luck with your armed insurrection against the USA. It’s ended so well for everyone else who tried it.

    (I think I just sprained my eyes rolling them so hard)

  62. Gregory Greenwood says

    Another horrific gun massacre, and yet the usual gun-fondling suspect’s first concern is not the lives lost or preventing further death and suffering, but instead is safeguarding their apparently all important firearms from any kind of meaningful regulation or control. The same cycle of empty platitudes from politicians and paranoid flailing form the gun-worshippers plays out again, and again nothing changes.

  63. Gregory Greenwood says

    call me mark @ 76;

    Good luck with your armed insurrection against the USA. It’s ended so well for everyone else who tried it.
    (I think I just sprained my eyes rolling them so hard)

    Now, now call me mark, don’t be mean – I’m sure John Fleisher has taken the march of military hardware and organisation into account in their… um… ‘carefully reasoned pro-gun argument’. So, you see, in order for the citizenry to hold a military superpower to account, you don’t just arm everyone with handguns or even assault rifles – that is so last century.

    It is clear that the only way people can be free is when everyone has full infantry and armoured divisions, flights of helicopter gunships, a fully functional navy and air force, and their own thermonuclear arsenal (I’m sure Kim Jong Un would agree with that last one), then their government wouldn’t dare oppress them. Freedom for the win!

    Well, so long as no one minds the odd mushroom cloud and the minor inconvenience of radioactive fallout and nuclear winter effects, but you know what they say; freedom isn’t free…

  64. blf says

    …you’ll have the idiots demanding the right to open carry RPG launchers.

    There are such eejits; the Gun Owners of America comes to mind. Their founder and führer, Larry Pratt, has said, e.g., “the founding fathers would have wanted every military-age man in the U.S. to carry an M-16 rifle at a minimum.”

    This group of nutters has already issued a statement on the Las Vegas slaughter (which I won’t link to), saying, in part, [… I]t is disturbing to see anti-gun politicians and celebrities politicizing the tragedy by calling for further restrictions on guns.

  65. thirdmill says

    Azkyroth, No 64, and Saad, Nos. 70 and 71, respectfully, comments like yours make it that much less likely that sensible gun regulations will ever be passed; the NRA says, “See, we told you, confiscation is the real aim after all.”

    I own a gun because I like to eat wild game and because I live in a moderately-high-crime area. I do not, however, think individuals should be able to own automatic weapons, armor-piercing bullets, or other military grade weaponry. I am fine with limiting individual gun ownership to non-automatic pistols and hunting rifles, which allows me to take down a deer and defend my home but would not allow me to fire off 90 rounds a minute at a crowded concert. I also favor mandatory gun safety, requirements that guns be properly secured and kept away from children, background checks, and waiting periods. On those points, we agree.

    But none of those measures has any real chance of passing so long as the NRA can plausibly claim that the real goal of any regulation is eventual confiscation. We have reasonable automobile registration laws only because there is no serious movement to confiscate cars; if there were a serious movement to confiscate cars, you might well see an automobile NRA equivalent start opposing all auto safety requirements too.

  66. blf says

    thirdmill@81, It has never been the case in modern times widespread confiscation of guns is the goal of the politicians or (most) gun controls advocacy groups. That is a lie straight out of the NRA playbook.

  67. Saad says

    thirdmill, #81

    So you agree with the proposed ideas and are just telling us “NRA won’t like it”.

    Thanks for that. I thought they’d be over the moon.

  68. Saad says

    Maybe we should stop treating the NRA like it’s the fourth branch of government. That’ll be a good start.

  69. thirdmill says

    Saad, I hate the NRA even more than you do, if that’s possible. I hate the NRA because they make stuff like the carnage in Las Vegas possible by resisting common sense gun control, and I also hate them because they make all gun owners look like nuts. I would like the NRA to fall into a black hole tomorrow, never to be seen again. I am one gun owner who will never, ever be caught saying nice things about the NRA. (Did I mention that I despise the NRA?)

    All that said, the people who think total gun confiscation is a good idea play into the NRA’s hands, because the cold, hard political reality is that total confiscation is a total non-starter, and it helps the NRA fire up its base. I wouldn’t vote for a candidate who favored total confiscation; I like duck hunting too much. You would go further in restricting guns than I would so no, I don’t completely agree with all your ideas, but I agree with some of them. Those ideas only have any chance of passing if you can persuade people that no, confiscation isn’t the next step.

  70. Saad says

    I’m not for total confiscation. And I guess I should have taken care to address hunting.I wasn’t saying hunters can’t have any guns.

    But outside of a single handgun per household (with strict and enforced rules and regulations regarding purchasing, registering, insuring, continuing certification and license renewal), yes, I’m against other firearms. Is there anything unreasonable about that?

  71. says

    I’m too glad thirdmill is here to defend poor gun owners against those horrible bullies who only think about themselves and their precious little “I don’t want to get shot” worries.
    You know, no matter how much I liked my hobby, I like people much more.

  72. John Morales says


    I wouldn’t vote for a candidate who favored total confiscation; I like duck hunting too much.

    After all, before modern firearms came along, ducks were unhuntable. Right?

    (I refer you to Cartomancer @69)

  73. Gregory Greenwood says

    thirdmill @ 86;

    I wouldn’t vote for a candidate who favored total confiscation; I like duck hunting too much.

    This seems like a clear cut case of priorities to me. I would put it to you, thirdmill, that your enthusiasm for duck hunting really shouldn’t trump someone else’s right to life. If the end of duck hunting is the price that must be paid to take meaningful steps toward the mitigation of the risk of mass shooting slaughters such as this latest horror in Las Vegas, then I consider it a very small price to pay. Why don’t you?.

  74. Gregory Greenwood says

    cartomancer @ 69 and John Morales @ 90;

    I would consider it a good idea to go even further – if people like thirdmill are so determined to keep hunting ducks, then you don’t need a black powder weapon to do it at all. It is quite practicable to hunt ducks with a slingshot so long as you are sufficiently skilled at both slingshot marksmanship and the tracking and stalking of ducks, and isn’t the challenge of it all – the display of skill – supposed to be the principle draw? I mean, other than that, aren’t you just blasting away at a small waterfowl with a ludicrously overpowered weapon just to ‘get you gun off’, if everyone will forgive the rather crude vernacular? Why should innocent lives be put so egregiously at risk for that?

  75. blf says

    In places like Switzerland and the UK, it is possible to have guns for duck hunting without the mass murders found in the States. Those two examples are actually rather contrasting: Switzerland is heavily-armed, but their gun (and ammunition) controls are effective, whilst guns are all-but-confiscated in the UK (ammunition is also controlled).

    So, America, this is how other countries do gun control (“The UK, Australia, Japan and Germany have all taken measures to reduce gun homicides. Can the US learn anything from them?”) is worth a read. And a very recent but less detailed BBC video, Gun control: How countries around the world introduced restrictions (“Following the mass shooting in Las Vegas, US lawmakers are once again debating gun control. Here’s a look at how other countries have introduced restrictions on the sale of guns”).

    And a bit more on Switzerland, The Swiss Difference: A Gun Culture That Works. It points out, probably correctly, that part of the reason the Swiss can be so heavily armed is because of an extremely strong country-wide culture of safety and responsibly. and because that is noticeably lacking in the States. the Swiss model, as implemented in Switzerland, wouldn’t be as effective in the States without a serious nationwide mindset-change.