Dang, that’s a clever move


I didn’t watch the debate, and I’ve already said I’m unimpressed with trying to declare a winner. The impression I’m getting, though, is that there’s a consensus that Pence was more slick & polished…not that I care, I want to know about the content and the policies. I do think this is neat, though: the latest ad from the Clinton/Kaine campaign shows very clearly that Pence was lying all night long.

Comments

  1. Nentuaby says

    It seems to be generally accepted now that Kaine wasn’t even trying to “win” the debate (since nobody ever changes their vote based on the VP debate) but systematically collecting material for this ad. More of the Clinton campaign running rings around the opposing ticket on the strategic level.

  2. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Trump is his own worst enemy in this election. He is too narcissist to see that.
    If he won’t control his mouth, which he won’t, he gives the election to Clinton, as has happened ever since the first debate.

  3. besomyka says

    Yeah, I was watching it last night. Shouted and pointed at the screen, ‘That’s the line they wanted to get for the ads!’

    Although they didn’t use it in that one. Ah well. It was when Pence said something along the lines of “Most of the things you’ve said are lies.”

    Pence is just as mendacious as Trump, only he’s nicer about it.

  4. Rob Grigjanis says

    It’s clever if it sways the dim bulbs undecideds. Who the fuck knows what sways them? Nothing substantial, apparently. It won’t sway anyone else.

    Nerd @2: Trump being “his own worst enemy” has served him pretty well so far.

  5. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Nerd @2: Trump being “his own worst enemy” has served him pretty well so far.

    But he is stuck at 40-42% of the votes according to a lot of pundits; he needs 47-48% to be elected. To move from there requires him to get votes from college educated women, black, latinos, LGBT, etc. Which isn’t and won’t happen to due his bigotry as evidenced by his own words.

  6. Siobhan says

    40-42%

    In the event of Clinton’s victory, that is a staggering number of people who are, at best, indifferent to Cishetero White Supremacy.

  7. Rob Grigjanis says

    Nerd @5: You’re equating polls with votes. All Trump needs is a better turnout from his demographic than Clinton gets from hers. Apathy and disgust are probably the strongest determinants in US elections. That could put Trump through.

  8. Rob Grigjanis says

    Nerd @8: Well, that’s possibly somewhat encouraging, but there’s also the issue of vote suppression (voter ID laws, e.g.). How many percentage points could that account for? Bottom line: I wish I could be as optimistic as you.

  9. robro says

    Yes, it looks like they suckered the Trumpers into another self-destructive fiasco. Pence just happens to be more telegenic than Trump…which probably really pisses Trump off because he is the greatest.

    What’s particularly interesting is how much smarter the Clinton apparatus is running their campaign than the small army of Republican senators and governors ran theirs against him in the primaries. Bush, Cruz and Rubio had their opportunity to dismantle him, but they didn’t have the chops.

    As for the odds, what really matters isn’t the popular vote but the electoral college vote. At this point, FiveThirtyEight’s most conservative estimate (polls-plus) gives Clinton 304.4 (56%) electoral votes and Trump 233.4 (43%). She only needs 269. They also give her a 3.4% edge in the popular vote, which may seem slim but it’s more than enough.

    Still, no one should get complacent, assume it’s a done deal, and fail to vote. Smashing Trump now will stop him in the future, should he survive 4 more years. Plus it might prevent the host of Trump-like trolls hanging around under Republican bridges from raising their ugly heads the next time.

    Also, there are all those down-ticket races in the mix. Cutting into the Republican majority in the Senate and House would be a good thing. Democrats may not be prefect and god-like, but they are generally better than most of the Republicans I know about.

  10. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Rob #9, I’m still looking for the video, probably with a MSNBC anchor, and Chuck Todd of Meet the Press, as the expert, on the 40-42% stagnation of The Donald. I saw it since the first debate, but I typically have 3000-3500 sites in history per month, so I have some searching to do to find the link.
    This actually fits with my assessment of the rethuglican primaries, where if they were using IRV instead of first past the post, The Donald wouldn’t have won the nomination, as he would have never achieved a majority of vote, as he would be the last choice of a a majority of rethug voters.
    And what What a Maroon says in #10. Particularly with female white college educated voters.

  11. What a Maroon, living up to the 'nym says

    robro,

    What’s particularly interesting is how much smarter the Clinton apparatus is running their campaign than the small army of Republican senators and governors ran theirs against him in the primaries. Bush, Cruz and Rubio had their opportunity to dismantle him, but they didn’t have the chops.

    Thing is, the dynamics are a lot different in the general election, and Clinton’s strategy probably wouldn’t work in the primaries. In the primaries you’re trying to beat your opponents but without alienating their supporters. When someone like Trump comes along, the most likely scenario is that they’re going to self-destruct (see Bachman in 2012, Fiorina or Carson this year), and if they don’t self-destruct there are plenty of other candidates to do the dirty work, while you take the high road. By the time it was clear that Trump wasn’t going to go away it was too late.

    Another factor that James Fallows pointed out is that with such a large field, it was easy for Trump to pick his spots. He could dominate the debates when he felt comfortable, and then shut up when he didn’t have anything to say. One on one, he can’t hide.

    As for Hillary, she doesn’t care about the deplorables. They’re never going to vote for her, and they’re never going to support her if she wins. Unlike the other Republicans she can attack when she wants and write off the 40% or whatever of true believers.

  12. says

    If anyone remembers Martha Coakley, she was the Democrat in a safe Democrat state for a safe Democrat seat and knowing that she and her people sat at home eating Doritos and playing Playstation or something. The public decided that maybe they do matter in the voting process and handed the election to the dumbass Scott Brown who at least tried to reach out.

    Democrats, and they who tend to vote for them, have a tendency to get lazy and not realizing their opponents are tireless in their efforts to drag the world back to before the 14th Amendment. I fear it happening again this election.

  13. says

    Wait until the next presidential debate. You know that Clinton is going to find a way to point out that a) Pence was better in his debate than Trump, b) Pence basically repudiated many of Trump’s positions, and c) it looks like Pence was more interested in setting himself up for a run of his own in 2020. Trump will explode on the stage.

  14. says

    Between his substantial answers and some general research I have done into him that while I’ll need to be raging drunk to pull the lever for the Clinton ticket it won’t have to be during a 72 hour lost weekend style bender.

    So at the very least my liver thinks highly if Kaine.

  15. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    So at the very least my liver thinks highly if Kaine.

    Voting for the Veep, not the Pres. Not surprising, given your idiotlology. How bad do you want the national debt to be????

  16. pipefighter says

    I’d say apathy on the parts of some anti establishment sentiments are Clinton’s biggest concerns. Splitting the vote between here and Stein because people think she isn’t sufficiently left( think nader gore) that it could leave things too close.

  17. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Splitting the vote between here and Stein because people think she isn’t sufficiently left( think nader gore) that it could leave things too close.

    Considering Stein and the non-viable Greens are polling at 2%, and Clinton’s lead is about 6% over The Donald, including key states, what scenario do you see?

  18. robro says

    What a Maroon @ #15 — Those are valid points. It just seems someone smarter would have known how to take him down without alienating his horde. It shouldn’t be that difficult.

    PZ @ #16 — Yep, I suspect that’s exactly what will happen, plus some more to set him up in the third debate, what you might call “el tercio de muerte” and the final “estocada.” Clinton’s team seems to be playing this very strategically.

    Incidentally, I saw a clip of the Clintons (Hillary and Chelsea) at a town hall (practicing) where someone asked her about the gross things he has said about women. Clinton’s response was that we should call him out for it and “make fun of it”…i.e. ridicule him. It made me think of Pharyngula.

  19. pipefighter says

    It’s still a month until the election, a lot can change. 6 % is not a comfortable lead.

  20. says

    @Nerd

    1) I’m voting for Clinton. So I have no idea why you are asking me any policy questions to make Clinton look better than Trump or Pence or whatever.

    However I’m not happy about having to vote for Clinton. Indeed I consider it a highly evil act that is necessary. I will literally be drunk when I do it; as in I’m waking up one saturday and drinking 7-10 beers before taking a bus to the polling place. It’s the only I can bring myself to it.

    That I sorta of like Kaine makes me feel almost imperceptibly better about it despite Kaine basically having no obvious effect and certainly no real power on policy. I meant my post as backhanded compliment.

    2) libertarians, pulling equally from the left and right or slightly more from the right as polling has been indicating for years means they can’t be spoilers for Clinton.

  21. says

    My not happy is a greatly restrained understatement. I can’t express in words my complete and utter abject horror and existential dread that I am being forced by circumstances to vote for Clinton.

  22. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    It’s still a month until the election, a lot can change. 6 % is not a comfortable lead.

    Any data to back up this assertion?

    libertarians, pulling equally from the left and right or slightly more from the right as polling has been indicating for years means they can’t be spoilers for Clinton.

    What world do you live in? Millenials seem to have a fondness for libeturdian ideals, even if they don’t work in the real world. Which was my point. Tea Party/Trump/Libertarian economics will be a disaster for the country, causing a recession and up to 5 trillion in increased nation deficit.
    If you don’t want to vote for Clinton don’t. But you should have a viable alternative.

  23. wzrd1 says

    Millenials seem to have a fondness for libeturdian ideals, even if they don’t work in the real world.

    I consider that a report on the abject failure of our educational systems to properly teach history.

    Seriously, how can one know US and world history *and* embrace Libertarianism in any form? That’s about as realistic a view as rejecting the law of gravity.

  24. rietpluim says

    I second Siobhan #6. Trump will probably not be president, but the USA already proved to be some assholery nation. The numbers should never have exceeded one or two percent. (Not that we are doing much better over here in The Netherlands. We are one assholery nation too with Wilders and all.)

  25. says

    I’m trying to think conservative here. I admit it’S an oxymoron and somewhere in the ballparkof Douglas Adams’ “falling down and forgetting to hit the ground”, but I’ll try.
    So, Trump says lots of horrible, bigoted and plain stupid things which appeal to his white supremacist voters. Then he and Pence go on and deny he ever said those things, which apparently appeases those Republicans who are not quite as horrible, bigoted or stupid. But apparently neither group is sufficiently offended/upset/pissed off by this.
    See, I fail at thinking conservative. I also always bruise my knees falling down.

    +++

    My not happy is a greatly restrained understatement. I can’t express in words my complete and utter abject horror and existential dread that I am being forced by circumstances to vote for Clinton.

    Now imagine sitting in Europe watching with horror knowing that a Trump presidency wouldn’t just fuck up the USA but also the rest of the world…
    Also, cut that “I need to get drunk to do this” shit. Alcohol is not medication that improves reality. Take it from me, your reality will become immensely worse if you go down that path.

  26. Derek Vandivere says

    #33 / riet: And don’t forget the Rotterdam town council, which wants to force contraception on women (and of course only women) it deems not capable of being good mothers…I couldn’t believe it when I read it in the newspaper the other day.

  27. Don F says

    There is one thing that Pence said at least a couple of times that is true:

    “That’s nonsense.”

    Trump HAS spewed a bunch of nonsense and Pence is apparently finally realizing it.

    I would feel bad for Pence about the position he is in, but he only has himself to blame.

  28. quotetheunquote says

    @Giliell #34

    Now, try to imagine what it is like live right NEXT DOOR to this, as we Canadians do… I take a Spanish tutorial, once a week, and just this past Tuesday I was just sitting there with my tutor (a Colombian) commiserating on how much we are affected by the result, and how powerless we are to do anything about it. Unhappy times…

    PS. I love Douglas Adams (‘hail, and farewell’), he was my favourite philosopher. Please indulge me while I quote the original:
    “There is an art to flying, or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. … Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, that presents the difficulties.”

    So, yes, plenty of bruised knees are to be expected.

  29. Brother Ogvorbis, Fully Defenestrated Emperor of Steam, Fire and Absurdity says

    PZ @16:

    Trump will explode on the stage.

    This is Pharyngula. I think the term for which you are looking is “Starfart”. And I would love for Trump to show his true colours and have a truly epic Starfart on every major television network.

  30. pipefighter says

    Are you seriously asking me if I have data to back up the claim that 6 % is not a comfortable lead? I got the 6% figure from a previous comment and I was making a point. 6% is negligible. A serious gaff or misstep could wipe that out.

  31. says

    @nerd

    I’m on a phone but if you check the polls, not just this year but pretty much forever, libertarians second choice candidate is almost always a 60-40 split between the R nd D candidate with this year being closer to a 55-45. So no Johnson is not a spoiler for Clinton.

    I’m also getting real tired, as a millennial, of having the older generations lecture me about needing to vote for Clinton and/or blaming trumpianism on our general dislike Clinton.

    And yes I’m morally obligated to vote for Clinton given the the circumstances that exist. I can’t justify any other action to others.

    @Gil

    You’re right. Having to be drunk is not ideal and it won’t make my life better. However it is only I can think of that will allow me to do what I have to do and vote for Clinton.

    I consider it a supremely evil act, an authorization of continued war crimes and imperialism. But still it has to be done because of Trump.

    So I’m literally going to wake up a week or so from now have 7-10 beers go vote having McDonald’s and then go home cry/watch some bad SciFi films.

    It’s unhealthy, maladjusted and whatever. But it’s the only way I can do this and look myself in the mirror on election day.

  32. KG says

    Mike Smith@42

    It’s unhealthy, maladjusted and whatever. But it’s the only way I can do this and look myself in the mirror on election day.

    Your self-important melodramatics are really boring. Just so you know.

  33. says

    @KC

    Yes of course. My central concern in this thread is to be entertaining and/or interesting to random people online.

    I’ll go inform the poor brown middle eastern kids that Clinton will inevitably murder that my concern for them is mere histrionic melodrama.

  34. quotetheunquote says

    @43

    Yes, you have a point; a Trump presidency would only embolden the dictators (and their allies) in your neighbourhood.

  35. says

    Given the circumstances (i.e. Donald Trump) I suspect the 6% is far more of a solid lead in this election than it would have been in any of the previous dozen.

    The remaining persuadables are still facing that final decision in the polling booth — whether to pull the lever for Donald Trump, and every day the press, the Clinton campaign, their friends, their relatives, and, of course, Donald Trump himself are giving them more and more reasons not to do it.

    Sure, some calamity could always befall the Clinton campaign in the last few weeks, but let’s not pretend that’s even as remotely likely as yet another implosion from Donald Trump.

    I’m nervous too (always am, come election time) but in reality, the fact that Hillary Clinton is in a far more solid position at this stage in the race than Obama was in either of his.

  36. says

    Mike Smith

    Yes of course. My central concern in this thread is to be entertaining and/or interesting to random people online.

    Just for your information: Your self-pitying “I got to get drunk” stick isn’t just not entertaining. I’m an alcoholic’s kid, I suffered abuse at the hands of my mother. Making this about your personal self-sacrifice is extremely shitty.

  37. says

    Mike Smith:

    My central concern in this thread is to be entertaining and/or interesting to random people online.

    You are: Stupid, oblivious, poisonous, bigoted, obnoxious, steeped in assholism, annoying, and ignorant to the core. You also seem to have a deafness of the brain, most serious problem. You are not remotely interesting in any way, and you are many multiverses away from entertaining.

  38. Silentbob says

    @ 53 drowner

    The exchange went like this:

    Your self-important melodramatics are really boring. Just so you know.

    (# 44 KG)

    Yes of course. My central concern in this thread is to be entertaining and/or interesting to random people online.

    (# 45 Mike Smith)

    You don’t detect any sarcasm in the response?

  39. Rowan vet-tech says

    Of course there’s sarcasm in Mike’s response. But the fact is that the way Mike is writing in this thread is fucking needlessly melodramatic, all florid phrases of doom, gloom, apocalypse, greatest evil having ever been committed, must be drunk to pull lever because OH WOE a president that…. won’t be that much different from ANY PRIOR PRESIDENT. Yes, that sucks. No, I don’t want more wars. But to equate Clinton with being a monstrosity that is only marginally better than Trump is to be fucking melodramatic.

  40. says

    @Rowan

    I didn’t equate Trump and with Clinton. Trump is an extinction level event; Clinton is a great evil. Up D all differences.

    @Caine

    I really don’t care what you find me.

    @Gil

    And my sibling self “medicated” for 15 years using vodka and pot because of being

  41. says

    @gil

    Bipolar. So spare me the moralizing.

    I am reacting how I’m going to react. In any other year I would consider voting for Clinton because I don’t want blood on my hands. When I vote for Clinton I will be authorizing and having her carry out in my name, in all likelihood, war crimes. How else would you have me react?

    A good person would not, cannot, vote for Clinton happily or gladly. I came into this thread because it’s do dubious to praise Clinton/Kaine for anything.

    We have to vote for Clinton, we all should hate ourselves for doing it.

  42. says

    Wouldn’t not would in the above.

    I still feel awful voting for Obama in 2008 because of the damage that did. I didn’t even consider voting for him in 2012.

  43. Silentbob says

    @ 57 Mike Smith

    Using diminutives to refer to other commenters can be seen as belittling.

    Regarding your need to get plastered to pull the lever, I’m reminded of something written recently by Greta Christina.

    Clinton’s foreign policy record also gets her excoriated as a warhawk, a genocidal murderer of children, with a degree of vitriol that somehow bypasses both President Obama and Secretary of State Kerry.
    [… ]
    If you object to Clinton’s policies and her record, by all means, say so. But why the venom? If you haven’t aimed this degree of hostility, mistrust, and contempt at other Democratic candidates and officials over corporate money or overly hawkish foreign policy — candidates and officials like Barack Obama, John Kerry, or Al Gore — why are you aiming it at Clinton? Of course “everyone else does it” isn’t a defense of bad actions. But it is a reason to question why some people get targeted with ten times more vitriol for the same bad actions.

  44. says

    @silentbob

    I would have to be plastered to vote for Kerry, B. Clinton, Gore and Obama (now). My 2008 vote for Obama was my life’s greatest regret and have yet to fully atone for it.

    Let’s not assume every passionate Clinton critic is a misogynist even through Clinton faces unfair treatment because of sexism.

  45. tomh says

    ” When I vote for Clinton I will be authorizing and having her carry out in my name, in all likelihood, war crimes.”

    Hyperbolic, melodramatic bullshit.

  46. says

    Silentbob:

    I think you’re taking sarcasm literally.

    :Snort:

    No. Mr. Smith’s “performance” in every single fucking thread he derails in an attempt to focus all attention on himself and his idiocy are there for everyone to see, it’s not just this thread. He spreads shit everywhere, and a whole lot of people are more than bloody tired of it. Same old shit, flung in every direction, with all the finesse of Stuart’s “look what I can do!”

    Mr. Smith is a flaming fucking asspimple, who doesn’t have the slightest ability to listen or think. If you wish to credit him with enough intelligence to be presenting melodramatic sarcasm, have at it, but please don’t tell me I must do the same.

  47. jrkrideau says

    @54 Silentbob
    I think you’re taking sarcasm literally.
    I’ve been finding it quite funny even though Mike is serious but I’m Canadian and that writing and speaking style is normal here.

  48. Silentbob says

    No, no. Sorry I’ve been unclear. I meant the comment at 45 about trying to be entertaining and interesting was sarcasm. That’s all I was referring to. I wasn’t talking about the ridiculous “I have to be blind drunk to vote for this monster” stuff.

  49. rietpluim says

    Notice that Mike Smith mentions the poor brown middle eastern kids only once? All the rest is about himself. That’s all I’m going to say about it. He’s had enough attention by now.

  50. says

    Mike Smith

    @gil
    Bipolar. So spare me the moralizing.

    1. I cannot remember having given you permission to use a short form of my nym
    2. So fucking what? You have a mental illness and are therefore entitled to glorify harmful behaviour that destroys people and families*?
    If your sibling drank themselves into oblivion for 15 years you should know the damage alcohol abuse can wreck. Comments like yours makes it socially acceptable to self-medicate using alcohol. People like my mother would read it and think “see, this is what reasonable people do! They encounter difficulties and they use alcohol. It’s not like I have a problem or something” while people like me read it and get some 30 years of gaslighting flashbacks when I was being mean, unreasonable, and generally speaking a disappointment.

    *Making you wonder how exactly those “poor brown middle eastern children” benefit from it

  51. says

    @tomh

    1) that interpretation of voting is the philosophical basis of our gov’t…so what?

    2) I can think of 3 different areas in which Obama has committed war crimes that Clinton is all but certain to continue.

    Let’s start with the obvious: you know how the Bush administration tortured people and basically it was authorized at the highest levels? Yup a war crime.

    Obama has done everything in his power to prevent prosecutions and refused to really go after top level people feeling it was politically better to just turn the page. This is a brand new war crime that Obama committed. I see no reason why Clinton will not do the same and we will have three war criminals in a row.

    Also I doubt that we have stopped torturing people especially if you count rendition recipients in the we.

    @Caine

    If I annoy so much, don’t respond. I usually say all I want to say in the first post and then only respond.

    Science knows I generally ignore Nerd, the freaken idiot that Nerd is.

  52. says

    @gil

    It will be a cold day in hell before I bother typing out everyone’s handle. I’ve been routinely shortened to Mike. It’s common.

    How can I be glorifying a behavior or saying it is acceptable when I myself called unhealthy and maladaptive? My sibling could read this and think I’m being unhealthy.

    Also what’s up with you diagnosis me with a mental illness? I thought it was agreed by all that you, even if you have the training, should not do that over the internet and with insufficient evidence.

    I feel gaslighted here; you have no proper means to say I have a mental illness.

  53. says

    I think I should change my handle to Master Muffin Dom Sir, ruler of the lowlands and highlands, benefactor of all, king under the mountain, wise noble and fairest of all beings.

    And then get bent out of shape when people still call me mike.

  54. says

    Mickey

    Also what’s up with you diagnosis me with a mental illness?

    You’re the fuckface who brought up being bipolar, not me.
    But I’m done with your supreme self-importance. You demand more attention than a hungry toddler and are about as melodramatic.
    Have a fucking nice day.

  55. KG says

    My central concern in this thread is to be entertaining and/or interesting to random people online.

    I’ll go inform the poor brown middle eastern kids that Clinton will inevitably murder that my concern for them is mere histrionic melodrama. – Mike Smith@45

    Oddly enough, there was no mention of these poor brown middle eastern kids on this thread until you needed them for the comment I quote – all your comments have been about Mike Smith, and how drunk he’d have to be to vote for Clinton.

  56. KG says

    Incidentally, Mike Smith, ordinary consideration for others would tell you that turning up heavily drunk in order to vote is a very bad idea. Do you suppose it’s pleasant for the staff at the polling booth, or other voters, to have to deal with a staggering, slurring, stinking man, who might – seeing how drunks often behave – start shouting, or vomiting, or threatening or assaulting others?

  57. says

    @Gil

    You can not read.

    This is what I said:

    “And my sibling self “medicated” for 15 years using vodka and pot because of being bipolar.”

    I was reporting that my sibling, not me, but my sibling is bipolar. My sibling went to a trained therapist for years who diagnosed them.

    So yeah, this is all sorts of embarrassing for you. It’s also adorable that you are trying to goad me by calling me mickey. It’s Master Muffin Dom Sir, ruler of the lowlands and highlands, benefactor of all, king under the mountain, wise noble and fairest of all beings. Please.

    @KG

    I have gone on the record several times on this website about my objections to Clinton and I’ll routinely bring them up in threads as needed. That I opened with what I have to do to vote for her as a counterbalance to Professor Myers’s praise does not mean I prioritizes my own interests first. It only means that I thought relevant. Indeed, I consider a vote for Clinton to be inherently damaging to anyone’s humanity but we must do it.

    As for your second point I’ll be infinitely more combative and unpleasant if I’m not drunk. And while yes it is going to be an unpleasant experience for all it is still in the long run preferable to Trump getting elected.

    Fortunately the weekend events might allow me the ability to not vote for her given my location in the country and the likelihood of him losing the state I’m in. If I can skip voting for Clinton I will.

  58. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    It only means that I thought relevant.

    Showing with prIma facie evidence you only care about yourself, not any body else. You were irrelevant and selfish for the umpteenth time.

  59. says

    @nerd

    I guess we can throw in prima facie as another term you don’t understand to go along with the completely embarrassing display of your inability to follow the private/public distinction for voting.

    Voting is still public the morally relevant sense BTW.