It’s looking like the Irish referendum on gay marriage is going to pass — the regressive villains have conceded. The most important thing is that lesbians and gays have won some rights they should have had all along, but I have to say it’s also satisfying to see all those Irish people thumbing their nose at the Catholic church.
Agreed, it is extremely satisfying to see the CC being opposed like that. Good for you, Ireland. And for all of us.
Remember when the U.S. used to be a leader in human rights? Perhaps we can catch up…
It’s a start. Now let’s see the Irish people vote on women’s reproductive rights instead of keeping them captive to the whims and abuses of religion, instead of letting it be decided by cowardly politicians afraid of losing the support of cult leaders. I’d wager the Irish people would also produce a majority Yes vote for women and legal abortion.
A whole bunch of bachelor bishops will be weeping into their Jamesons today.
Just read the news. congrats Ireland and congrats to all LGBT people out there, there is hope when even one of the most Catholic countries of westen Europe can do that.
Now I wonder why Germany isn’t that far, oh right, the idiots here keep voting for the Christian Democratic Union…
I wonder what the atmosphere in the Vatican is right now…
Now if they would remove the RCC totally from their constitution.
Actually, no, I can’t.
Well done, Ireland. Now, if only Australia could drag itself into the 21st century…
Cool.
Congrats, Ireland!
“YES” indeed, good onya.
I dislike the concept of voting on rights, but when it happens, I can glad that the side of equality/rights wins by such a big margin
sirbedevere @ 2:
Uh, no. And I’ve lived in the States my whole life.
As we know, in the case of Ireland this had to take the form of a referendum because it apparently required a change to the constitution, not just the enactment of a new law.
So yes, absolutely, human rights should not be subject to a vote – but given the legal situation this is one hell of a happy step for Ireland to take and it’s such a joy to see a big majority speaking up for human decency and recognition of equal rights. Wonderful to be able to cheer on the great news from all our different corners of the world, and I can only imagine how it might feel to be GBLT in Ireland today and know that most of your compatriots have voted yes.
@7 and @12 beat me to it — when, exactly, was the U.S. a leader in human rights?
kellyw. posting here.
A bit of good news today. Very happy, although it’s terrible it was put to a vote.
I’m still pessimistic about the US supreme court and how they’ll decide (and nervous as to how their decision, should it be negative, will affect states who have legalized gay marriage through court decisions–I don’t know much of how that works.).
Actually “we” don’t know that.
Why Ireland should not have needed a referendum on gay marriage
Relevant passages:
So, no, it probably didn’t have to be a referendum.
Yay! Well done Ireland!
I borked my link – it was:
http://theconversation.com/why-ireland-should-not-have-needed-a-referendum-on-gay-marriage-42090
In retrospect, “Think of the children” was probably not a good slogan for the Catholics to use.
Kristjan Wager:
I expect it would have come down to this no matter what, because it seems that the asshole conservative side (everywhere) is convinced that if put to a vote, the ‘people’ will come through and say “nope, not wanted here!”
Live results here
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0523/703207-live-count/
Eat it Francis! Eat it!
Various reports put the “Yes” vote in Dublin at 70% to 75% and majority “Yes” vote even in conservative, rural areas. There are probably episcopal heads exploding all over Ireland and in the Vatican. (One can just imagine some Irish bishop being called on the carpet to explain exactly how the church lost on this vote… I can think of any number of reasons why it could have happened, but none that would please the upper echelons of the RCC.)
mordred
That’s because of the ingenious little thing called “Lebenspartnershaftsgesetz”. For those of you not German, that’s the 2nd class marriage we allow gay people: all the obligations, half the privileges.
The minority always neds the support of the majority to further their rights, be it in form of a referendum OR a political process. That’s not fair, but it’s the way things have been for a long time.
Now, many people in Germany thought that banning gays from marriage was unfair. Gay people were seen as legitimate victims of discrimination, so they created this Lebenspartnerschaftsgesetz, giving them just enough rights to satisfy a huge amount of straight “allies” but not enough to totally upset their conservative voters.
Of course, gay people got screwed over, but more importantly, straight people were happy! Now gays who said: “you know, that fuck is still discrimination” were seen as greedy by many people who formerly supported them.
Of course, since then the Verfassungsgericht (German supreme court) has expanded their rights time after time again (at the start they would not even get the tax privileges of heterosexual couples) and there’s no indication they will stop, but that’s how the conservatives like it: They know they’re wrong. They know they will lose in the end, but they can claim that they have fought and that it was the evil judges who forced them and make the conservatives happy, while they can also claim that they were the ones who got gay rights on the way.*
*I’ve always found it funny: If you violate traffic laws, you get punished. If you violate the fundamental human rights of people and the constitution you get 24 months to get it right AND get credit for it afterwards.
I would say the US was a leader in human rights when founded; slavery, practiced worldwide at the time, was a blight on that record, but giving the vote to (a few of) the people, having an entire nation without any sort of hereditary dictator? That was remarkable, and a huge step for human rights. When the Bill of Rights was then passed, I’d say that was the high point of US human rights development compared to the rest of the world. Freedom of speech and association, freedom from billeting of troops, from arbitrary arrest…the very fact that these were enumerated as things to aspire to, set the US well ahead of their contemporaries.
Since then, not so much (relative to other nations). Generally speaking, I’d look to the Scandinavians as the leaders on human rights since the 20th century got rolling.
Giliell,
Life partners get the shaft?
Anyway, yay Ireland! It’s always refreshing to see places where the people are ahead of their leaders.
What a Maroon, oblivious
We’re such misers, we even deny them a C.
That should be “-schaft”, the German term for “hood” as in “parenthood”
Giliell,
Ah, the “progressive” bigotry: Let them marry, let them have all the rights heterosexual marriages have EXCEPT right to adopt because [mumble something incoherent] … children.
Giliell,
I’d feel superior, but my own state has only allowed gay marriage for a few months, and only because the courts made it so.
sirbedivere@#2 Remember when the U.S. used to be a leader in human rights? Perhaps we can catch up…
Don’t confuse military spending for human rights, which is what you appear to have done.
Oh, the US is still a leader in human rights just as it always was…in its presumptions about itself and in the propaganda. This Noam Chomsky article really captures how that works. (Yes, it’s Chomsky but it’s short…no really.)
CatieCat: I’m not too sure about the founders, either. Their position on slavery is certainly an indicator that their primary concern was the rights of privileged landholders, not human rights. The wording of the US Constitution suggests this as well. Then there is the treatment of existing American nations. I suspect their position was not so much for human rights as against royal prerogative.
Feels bloody awful being Australian – again.
Talk about being dragged kicking and screaming back to the nineteenth century. Our government may well be the worst we’ve ever had, not just the worst in living memory.
Hey ho. roll on next year’s election.
But well done to the Irish. The vote wasn’t just a majority. At approximately 2 to 1, it was a magnificent landslide.
Robro:
On the money.
Fuuuuuuuck. Sitting with Mum, she told me she voted No. Big row ensued. So angry, so terribly sad, so confused, so pissed off with myself for getting mad with her. I voted Yes based on lessons I thought I took from her. Crap, crap crappity crap.
Sorry to vent here, it’s a big day full of hope and happiness, just heard that by text that my best friend from school proposed to his partner outside Dublin Castle this afternoon. So many stories like this are on the radio and televisão today, so cool.
Goddamn autocorrect.
It’s a start. Now Ireland needs to get RCC policies out of their hospitals and and grants rights for trans and non-binary people.
A high percentage of eligible voters voted on the referendum in Ireland. More eligible voters went to the polls than usually show up for presidential elections in the USA.
In Ireland, nationwide turnout was over 60%. In the last presidential election (2012) in the USA, 57.5% of the eligible voters bothered to vote. For midterm elections, the USA turnout is far lower, and this is a fact that helps rightwing whackos get elected. US voters need to get fired up like the voters in Ireland.
I was pleased to see a few Catholic clergy persons coming out in favor of marriage equality.
Sorry to hear that mudpuddles – and glad to hear that your friend could finally propose
Mudpuddles @ 34:
That’s a bad fuckin’ day. I’m so sorry.
Now that you mention it: let’s look at the maps here and there: these maps were all red when I was still in high school: those who champion keeping matrimonial freedoms a privilege are, indeed, losing.
A big round of applause for the Irish being the first nation to recognize same-sex union per popular vote.
Makes the rest of the so-called civilized first world look pretty fucking backwards.
… and it’s done.
http://www.rte.ie/news/results/2015/referendum/ssm/
62.1% YES
37.9% NO
Hmmm….i expected an even stronger victory, but fuck it, it’s done.
Ahem…*cough* *cough*…bisexuals…..
Azhael @ 44:
Meaning what?
@45, Caine
Presumably meaning “this is also a victory for bisexuals, who may have had a chance of marrying the person they loved before but also stood a chance of being prohibited from doing so, so let’s mention them since the media at large certainly won’t, bisexual erasure being A Thing”.
(Technically, it’s also a victory for asexuals, since asexuals also get married — although not for reasons of sexual attraction — and may want to marry someone of the same gender.)
@46 The Vicar
Bingo. Sorry i myself forgot to include asexuals in my post :S My mind was set on bisexuality being erased.
CaitieCat 25
While watching the election trend on twitter, I noticed the hash tag #hometovote, along with all sorts of celebratory pictures of — mostly young — people who had travel great distances to return to Ireland to vote. Is physically showing up at the polling place a common requirement? (I often vote by mail in California.)
Fantastic moment for Ireland and really proud to be Irish today. This should have been in our constitution from the start but glad that the Irish people made the right choice. Now onto getting women’s reproductive rights up to scratch with the rest of the 1st world. Hopefully this referendum will start an avalanche of challenges to the grip the Catholic Church has on Irish society.
Gak. Italy. Stupid last EU Catholic country left bigot and proud.
Gotta admit that Catholics have been so much better than Orthodox here.
Still.
Once we see that a Catholic Country does not implode and revert to barbarism and human sacrifice due to marriage equality, can Italy follow?
Woot woot!
I hope this is the start of overthrowing Catholic political power in Ireland.
Or what w00dview@50 said.
@F.O.
Spain is a “catholic country” that has had marriage equality for 10 years now and armaggedon doesn’t seem to have happened. There’s flowers and more happy people and shit, it’s weird….
F.O.
Nope, sadly not the last one.
Is there something left to say that hasn’t been said in this thread?
YES IRELAND!!!
Congratulations, Ireland! Yes, one thing hasn’t been said: We should all appreciate the gracious defeat acknowledgement of the No-Side (even the churches!). Nothing like that can be expected here in the US.
@Dalillama, Schmott Guy: Consider adding “Great Britain” to that list as well. A large part of why the American rebels were so upset at the British government was that British subjects living in Britain had various rights which were being denied to the colonists. White male landowners could vote for parliament; the voting class and the authority of the elected government bodies weren’t terribly different than in the post-revolution US (however, the allocation of seats in the British parliament in the late 18th century was a total clusterfsck). Most of the laws that the rebels objected to were acts of the British parliament, not arbitrary edicts of the king, despite later propaganda to the contrary. One major difference is that the British did not even pretend to have anything resembling freedom of religion at the time, though the US is still having trouble with that 240 years later.
Caitie Cat @ 25:
You might be able to handwave slavery when talking about somewhere other than the States, but you are ignoring two things which happened in the States concerning slavery. There’s the civil war, one the bloodiest, nastiest wars ever, creating a divide which still exists to this day, and after the ‘win’, black people weren’t considered to be full humans with full rights until the 19fucking60s. This is hardly an sort of leader in the human rights department. The civil rights movement also didn’t take – look at why there’s an ongoing racism thread here, and all of the PoC who are being murdered every day, and the murderers are getting away with it.
Only one constituency vote it in, and that was by a margin of 51 to 49, in a rural part of the north midladidntmidlands most conservative part of the country. My 83 year old grandmother and several of their friends went down in their brightest colours to vote for marriage equality.
As many of you are picking up, this is a massive blow to the catholic church . But I think that was almost the point. When discussing ireland on here, its often focusing on the power the catholic church had. Rarely is it on how that is crumbling. Irish people are angry at what was done to us, what we were told was right.
If you will excuse my language, this vote was a massive “fuck you” to the catholic church. Fuck you for the family members who got pregnant and were sent away to be abused by nuns, fuck you for the children that were abused in their care. Fuck you for the gay siblings who were sent away from home because their parents couldnt look at them. Fuck you for those who were beaten to death for being gay. Fuck you for how you oppressed us, controlled us, and kept us prisoners with the concept of eternal damnation. Every Irish family has suffered from Catholic dogma, and we have been discovering that over the last 20 years. Yesterdays vote was just a symbol of that. (Sorry for the rant)
Siofra Milne-Corry @ 60:
You should rant often. That was eloquent and poignant.
Well… “most Catholic”…
Here’s news from 2012: “Republic of Ireland abandoning religion faster than almost every other country in the world”
Quote from there: “The survey showed that those Irish who considered themselves religious had fallen from 69 per cent in 2011 to less than half today. Ireland was ranked seventh in the 57 countries for those describing themselves as convinced atheists.” And that was in a single year.
“Archbishop of Dublin Dr Diarmuid Martin, who has previously warned that the Irish church is in crisis, responded: ‘The Catholic church cannot simply presume that the faith will automatically be passed from one generation to the next or be lived to the full by its own members.’
David Quinn, a staunch defender of the faith who heads the Iona Institute [a reactionary stink tank], said the findings indicated a significant amount of hostility towards institutional religion. He said this and other polls had found that a quarter of those surveyed ‘would be happy if the church vanished from Ireland completely.'”
“Previous polling has indicated that a majority of Irish Catholics are strikingly out of line with the Vatican’s attitude on issues such as priestly celibacy and the introduction of women priests. Almost 90 per cent believe that priests should be free to marry, with over 70 per cent saying they believe married men should be ordained.
Rome’s reaction to criticism from Irish priests has been authoritarian. One priest with liberal views was ordered to a monastery to ‘pray and reflect’ while another was prohibited from writing on such issues.”
In sum, it seems that Ireland is deconverting like the Socialist Kingdom of Spain, only more so. :-)
I read today that it comes with all the privileges except the right to adopt. So… separate but almost equal. *snort*
It’s -ship as in craftsmanship; rare and unproductive in English, common in German.
I bet this would increase drastically if you’d abolish the Electoral College. Right now, there’s simply no point in voting for president in DC or Idaho, or even New York or Texas or California.
…though you’d also need to crack down on the people who provide too few voting booths and polling stations to black/poor neighborhoods.
On a global scale? No. Ireland is unusual.
Hence the “representation” part of “no taxation without representation”.
David Marjanović (#62): Here’s news from 2012: “Republic of Ireland abandoning religion faster than almost every other country in the world”.
Quote from there: “The survey showed that those Irish who considered themselves religious had fallen from 69 per cent in 2011 to less than half today.
Hmmm. I just quoted Wikipedia on another thread; it puts the Catholic portion of Ireland’s population at 83.6 percent. It could be their information is out of date. [goes to article…]
The source is an Irish government database. It puts the Roman Catholic population of Irish men and women at 3,525,573. The figure for “all nationalities” is 3,831,187. The latter figure is exactly what Wikipedia used. So I have no clue as to the cause of the discrepancy.
caseloweraz,
I looked at wikipedia’s page on Ireland and went to the demographics subsection. It listed the same percentage of Catholics you found and stated that the number comes from 2011, so it is a bit out of date, especially since David Marjanović’s source states that there was a significant decline between then and now.
DM’s source is also based on a different question. Wikipedia states that about 84% of Ireland’s population considered themselves Catholic in 2011. DM’s source states that 69% of Ireland’s population considered themselves religious in 2011. It’s possible to consider oneself both Catholic and nonreligous. The numbers would suggest that many Irish feel connected to Catholicism as part of their identity, but they may not attend church or believe strongly in RCC theology.
I love that the people of Ireland voted it in. That’s done my faith in humanity the world of good. But I am still nervous of the idea of allowing people to vote on whether or not others get to have the same fundamental rights as everyone else. I’m not sure it’s a good idea to ask the majority to vote on whether or not they have quite finished oppressing a certain minority.
This mindset is almost the default in Europe generally. The census asked “how do you classify yourself”, the survey asked about actual beliefs and/or practice.
(Sorry for the rant)
Someone needs to apologize, but it ain’t you, Siofra. Thanks for the history blurb.
Conceded indeed. They conceded in the same way the south ‘conceded’ to the north in the civil war…The antis had their ASSES handed to them…they didn’t concede SHIT they LOST….