I’m sorry to report that comedian Robin Williams has committed suicide, an event of great import and grief to his family. But his sacrifice has been a great boon to the the news cycle and the electoral machinery — thank God that we have a tragedy involving a wealthy white man to drag us away from the depressing news about brown people. I mean, really: young 18 year old black man gunned down for walking in the street vs. 63 year old white comedian killing himself? Which of those two stories gives you an excuse to play heart-warming and funny video clips non-stop on your 24 hour news channel? Besides, the real story in Missouri is that businesses have been damaged by angry black people — no one is going to trash the Family Dollar in rage over the death of a popular comedian. Mike Brown’s death is confusing — the police say he was a shoplifter struggling to get a gun, while no stores reported a shoplifting event, and Brown was unarmed and shot while raising his hands in surrender. Where’s the moral clarity? We’re supposed to want to believe the police, you know, yet all the evidence points to their status as a gang of militarized thugs. That’s very uncomfortable.
Boy, I hate to say it, but it sure was nice of Robin Williams to create such a spectacular distraction. No one wants to think the police might be untrustworthy.
And think of the politicians! Midterm elections are coming up. Those are important! So people like Barack Obama need to be able to show their human side and connect with the real concerns of the American people by immediately issuing a safe, kind statement about Robin Williams, while navigating the dangerous shoals of police brutality and black oppression by avoiding them. Wouldn’t want to antagonize those lovely law-and-order folks before an election, you see.
Lovely folks like this white lady:
She seems nice. She looks like the kind of person who would have laughed at “nanu-nanu” and cried at What Dreams May Come. She is a Real American whose opinions deserve the attention of the powers that be.
Disappointing, that’s quite a cheap shot.
True. Calling black people “feral and violent” really is a very cheap shot.
Cheap shot is a perfect word for this piece.
A cheap shot is what got Michael Brown killed.
No doubt the lady is ignorant trash….but it seems like misguided rage here
From his wiki, which is likely to see several updates as information comes to light:
“Williams was found unresponsive in his home in an unincorporated area just outside Tiburon, California, at around 11:55 am PDT on August 11, 2014, and was pronounced dead at 12:02 pm, aged 63. The Coroner Division of Marin County suspects the death to be suicide by asphyxia, pending investigation. According to his publicist, Williams had suffered depression before his death, though he would not confirm the reports that the death was suicide. A forensic examination and toxicology test is scheduled for August 12.”
Hence the presumption of suicide remains to be confirmed, and appears to be speculative at this point.
Meanwhile, yes, this piece appears to be entirely cynical. A well-liked famous person dies, but of course this is the perfect segue into racial politics!
Yes, why should anybody be angry that the fucking president considers the death of Robin Williams more worthy of comment than police murdering black people for no reason? How terribly misguided of you PZ. For shame.
Sorry. I tried to soften the cynicism, but it turns out my entire inner core is one bleak column of unrelenting cynicism and despair.
Oh, and rage. Lots of rage.
Picture a pillar of black ash laced with red hot rivers of flaming lava. That’s me.
Oh lordy. Really, is that going to be the complaint? Pissiness about connecting Williams’ death with Brown’s death, because… well, mostly propriety and tone and things like that.
It’s a police state out there. Literally. The police have ordered the media out of Ferguson and are busy terrorizing the entire town. Perhaps they’re mostly done by now. The same group of people who just shot one of their kids is now shooting tear gas, setting off explosives, and shooting them with rubber bullets. But I guess half of y’all won’t want to talk about that because you’ll be too intent on haranguing PZ about being too crass and cynical.
You are sad that Williams is dead? Good. I think it’s terrible that he suffered from depression and died. I am not saying that he was a bad person or that his death is not cause for grief.
But what I’m seeing, what prompts your whining about cynicism, is that the media have lost all sense of proportion — that the death of a popular entertainer is bigger news than our loss of freedom and our slow steady drift into a police state.
What about it? We know how it’s going to end. The protests will die down, and maybe they’ll have the effect of forcing the cop who shot Brown to stand trial instead of just going before a board while on paid admin leave before quietly being let go or reassigned to work that doesn’t put him in contact with the public on duty (like one of the cops who shot Amadou Diallo). Same old, same old. And you call yourself cynical?
They are two separate and unrelated issues, the fact that the media will seize on something to distract from more important conversations is a well known fact, if it wasn’t the death of a celebrity it would be something else, but there is no need to try to work that in reverse. If you want to try have a discussion about Michael Brown, do that, but don’t hijack someone else’s death. You have said, in response to someone’s suicide “…it sure was nice of Robin Williams to create such a spectacular distraction”, that’s pretty poor form.
You say what’s important is discussing the real issue and not being distracted by the side issues, yet, here we are.
Exactly. I’m as sad as anyone that Robin Williams is gone but it’s ridiculous how much importance we place on this. I was watching a broadcast on Twitch TV and the chat was full of it within minutes of the first stories hitting. So quick, in fact, that, when I Googled his name, the results page didn’t begin with a little “News about Robin Williams” section like it usually does when there are hot news stories about the keywords you just searched. Yet, had I asked if any of them (there were 2k-ish people in that chat) knew what was going on in Ferguson, I probably would have gotten nothing but crickets chirping in response.
marko @ 12
Because you brought it up, jackass.
Ah, that’s right, I brought it up.
marko @ 15
Oh my bad. By “side issues” I thought you meant arguing with fuckwits who want to whine about “poor form” instead of discussing the fact that law enforcement officers feel perfectly justified to shoot at unarmed black people and that everyone up to and including the president considers that less important to talk about than Robin Williams. Silly me. I should have known that the police brutality was the side issue you were referring to.
Fair enough, I’m out. I’ll remember for the future that there is a strict hierarchy of importance and that it is fine to mock someone’s suicide if it is to highlight injustices further up the scale.
Except…I didn’t mock Robin Williams or his suicide.
You know that sentence you quoted in #15? I’d say that’s more mocking the journalists and politicians since they’re using someone’s suicide to boost ratings and win warm fuzzy points with their constituents instead of talking about horrific injustices. But that’s just me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_model
“The authors point to biases that are based on only reporting scandals which benefit a section of power, while ignoring scandals that hurt the powerless.”
The first couple hundred pages of Manufacturing Consent contain (along with a few other classics like Amusing Ourselves to Death) some of the most informative descriptions out there of how the media operates.
@marko,
Robin Williams was never going to want for eulogies from friends and fellow professionals – there is something wrong the world when his death is used as a distraction from what should be a national concern, if not outrage.
If Obama had issued a statement about Williams after at least statting public concern about police officers executing black people in the streets, then PZ wouldn’t have been writing this.
At best, this demonstrates that celebrity is a greater concern than police brutality. The President should be setting the national agenda, not chasing it. If he has the time to talk about the tragic suicide of a celebrity, then he should certainly take the time to address the latest in series of shootings by police officers of unarmed black men amidst an increasingly ugly atmosphere of open bigotry and racism by the right.
@11 brett: how cynical, it’s not like convicted rapists from not that many months ago are quietly sneaking back to normalcy. http://www.wtrf.com/story/26248983/teen-convicted-in-steubenville-rape-back-on-football-roster. Oh, wait….
http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/post/94490732659/releasing-depression-quest-on-steam-today
Go look at CNN’s front page right now. There is not a word about the protests in Ferguson that have had police tear gassing and shooting rubber bullets at residents. NOT. A. WORD. Top story: Robin Williams. Second top story: Tony Stewart (a celebrity who killed a man the other day during a race*). If you go 7 stories down on the “latest stories” links under those, you finally get to “Michael Brown shot: what we know”. ZERO indication of the fact that Ferguson turned into a fucking police state yesterday. Zero indication that every single image coming out of that city looks like it could have come straight out of the 1960s. Nothing. That’s the kind of shitty excuse for journalism that PZ is pointing out, the kind of outsized attention everyone pays to celebrities while ignoring things that affect our society much more.
*and as another note, almost none of the reports about this incident even have a picture of the man who was killed, just a splashy pic of the celebrity himself. Because only the celebrity matters, not who the person killed was.
And Princess Diana’s death upstaged Mother Teresa’s, too. And the most important pieces of news, at least the ones that don’t bleed, aren’t even reported at all. So what else is new?
You don’t have to be surprised by it to be appalled by it, yo.
@21- Indeed, the openness of racism these days is fucking amazing. The president really is in a bind as far as this goes, because his success as a politician is based on playing this racist image game. He can’t say anything without reinforcing the American right wing’s absurd smear of him as a white-hating radical.
But something needs to be done to turn this trend around. In the comments on any article about “racial politics” as assface @6 called it, you see the evidence we need more race activism. It’s the racial corollary of Lewis’s Law, I’m sure there’s a name for it. It’s getting harder to remember that it actually used to be uncool to be racist. Now klan-friendly grandma up there can own a sentiment like that with pride. Something has gotten seriously fucked up here.
That’s not to say we’ve ever had a time free from racism, but what’s going on now is a horrorshow.
In Australia here. We had the TV on in the office at work (no sound)… Half the time when I glanced up, there was some piece on about Robin Williams. I saw nothing at all about Ferguson – in fact, I knew nothing about it until I read this post.
At first read I thought PZ was being a bit callous… but no. It’s stunning the leader of a nation could make a flowery statement to mark the passing of a popular celebrity, yet remain silent on an apparently brutal police shooting of a teen, and the riot that followed.
Because having a different take on the post warrants personal abuse! GIFT is alive and well.
I think part of what’s going on here is that a lot of people place celebrities in their “monkeysphere” – the set of 200ish people they truly care about and see as people. The death of one person in your monkeysphere is always going to be a lot more tragic to you than a hundred deaths outside of it. Rightly or wrongly, it’s part of human psychology. So, there are a large number of fans of his who see this as a personal tragedy.
Now, add in other people who suffer from depression of various sorts and get a harsh reminder that the daily fight doesn’t go away even for a ridiculously successful 63-year-old (this would be the category I fall into myself), and you have a lot of people for whom this is an open wound.
So this line:
touches a bit of an open wound. Sure, logically you have a point, and I can look past that wound to see that you’re right about the big picture. But it still comes across as just a bit insensitive to those still feeling pain related to his death.
This Monday has been one real mother of a day. Air strikes, a renown comedian’s suicide, riots resulting from a possible wrongful death (I will wait till there is more information about what happened to decide who was at fault), and I should add that a person at my place of work was run over by a hostler while talking on their cell phone (luckily their still alive but seriously injured).
I am more disgusted at the fact that these people burnt a business to the ground. For what? Punish the innocent makes perfect sense. Here we are with air strikes in Iraq trying to feed starving people and the best people here can do is get angry and burn down a business to vent anger. In so many ways this reminds me of the LA riots where people were hurting others just because they can… Still can’t get the images of the truck driver dragged from his truck and a brick smashed over his head out of my mind. And the media should know when to stop inciting shit. Ya I saw the report on CNN, “one cop said they are all animals” (first of all we are animals, second what would you say their acting like). He’s there watching people destroy things with no reason or purpose, seriously what would you expect someone to say when their faced with a hostile situation. Well I guess when it isn’t in their backyard, they could care less what the hell is said or that it may incite more violence.
Oh ya and the reporter in Iraq, “I have never seen violence like this.” It’s a military action and your in the heart of the action, what did you expect them to shake hands? be polite? Instead of just saying something, try to actually report the situation with some dignity. It disgusts me that here is a girl crying her eyes out unsure if her father is still alive, and the best he can do is use it as some talking point (talk about a grief vulture). Show some respect put the mic down and be human for a damn minute. I am sure the camera and the sound of gun fire with hysterical people all around is more than enough to get the point across.
Should’ve taken Garfield’s advise and stayed in bed.
Why do we assume Obama is “in a bind”? He presides over the police state. I guess the bind is a simple conflict of interest: “I want to be in charge of a police state with the powers it gives me. Though I don’t specifically have anything against the guy the police executed, condemning it tends to undermine the very thing I’m helping create.” That’s not a bind I’m at all sympathetic to, though.
Infophile:
I have to wonder if that was what PZ was aiming for-deliberately poking an open wound.
At first glance, that’s what I thought too, until I realized PZ’s larger point. Yes, the death of Robin Williams is tragic, but so is the death Mike Brown. Moreover, the death of the latter is another in a long list of examples of police brutality in the US that have been glossed over at best by the media (and ignored at worst). The US is becoming a police state, and People of Color are treated like shit across the country and the media focuses almost exclusively on the death of Robin Williams.
“Hey look at this tragic suicide and don’t pay attention to the ongoing slide into a police state.”
I think they’re acting like angry people who’ve been cut off from access to the full range of civil and human rights that are supposed to be guaranteed to all citizens after centuries of struggle to end slavery and another century and a half of de facto and de jure second-class citizenship.
And I expect cops to refer to the PEOPLE they are supposed to protect and serve as just that: people. Like the professionals they are alleged to be.
And yeah, I see your waffling. You want to pretend like there was anything in the world that could possibly justify the shooting. It never fails. Someone shoots a black person, and white assholes crawl out of the woodwork to investigate: Maybe he was high. Maybe he flashed a “gang sign” in a photo once. Maybe he stole a cigar. Maybe he jaywalked. Maybe he did any number of things, none of which would be acceptable as a provocation to use lethal force if the person in question was not black.
Ooze on back outta here, Wes Aaron. You’re gross.
The favorite excuse for defending the initial shooting seems to be “Well yeah it’s totally wrong for the cops to shoot an unarmed suspect, but it’s his fault for running from the cops!”
Gotta love watching white people who have nothing to fear from the police wondering why someone would run away. Could it be, I dunno, because he wasn’t an idiot and realized they were gonna fucking shoot him?
Back when I was a teenager and we were stealing coolers full of beer off people’s porches we’d run like hell if we saw the cops. Of course we were all white so we knew the cop would never think of opening fire and if they did they’d be vilified by the entire public as monsters who murdered some poor defenceless kids who were just havin a little fun.
@wes
No, fuck that and fuck you, you hyperskeptical pile of oozing fester. He was unarmed and shot in the back and the cause of his death was, *at the very fucking least*, lied about in one major way.
He was an innocent young man who was brutally gunned down senselessly and you’re quibbling over the bullshit rationalisation of “needing more information”? From the same kinds of sources that say that a handcuffed man shot himself in the head in the back of a police car using a gun he smuggled inside his own ass? From the same sources that say a teenager who shoplifted and tried to steal a cops gun was not actually shoplifting at all?
No.
Fuck that.
The police do no deserve it. They routinely lie, cover, and fabricate causes of death for minorities which are killed in their care. The only way to deal with an overreaching police abuse problem is to assume that the police are lying scumbags *unless and until it can be proven otherwise, verifiably*. To do otherwise is to enable them.
My black American friend — oops! I should say, half-black, because his mother is white — but in America he’d be black (the one-drop rule) informed me yesterday that he is not only becoming a Canadian citizen, he is *renouncing* his American citizenship.
For myself, I have been watching in horror the last five years or so the disproportionate death toll among black Americans (not forgetting the disabled and the mentally ill, who are also targeted) summarily executed by trigger-happy above-the-law police officers. If I were a black American, I’d be seriously considering going underground and setting up an alternative justice system for the perpetrators of these atrocities. And they are atrocities, racial atrocities combined with the thuggish actions of a police state.
Back to my American (not for very much longer) friend; I empathized with him over his decision — as a Canadian I have not been brought up with nearly the amount of patriotic feeling most Americans are, but renouncing my own citizenship, even for very good reasons, would be quite traumatic for me. One point my friend made was about three Kenyans he knew who emigrated to America, legally, for a better life — and who now have returned to Kenya because of the treatment of blacks in America.
When Mike Brown was killed, within an hour there were OVER A HUNDRED POLICE CARS at the scene; within two hours, nearly 400 police officers attending. These are not the actions of an institution devoted to “serve and protect”. I don’t predict this or look forward to it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if soon there were organized black community action on this issue, and a return to the race riots of the ’60’s.
That’s just how it seems to someone looking into America from the outside.
That anyone could think that the biological definition of “animal” as including human beings is relevant in this context, would be unbelievable if there were not plenty of “twoo skeptics” like Wes Aaron, forever ready to elide or minimise bigotry.
Everyone knows white people are feral and violent rioters only when their sports team wins or loses. #whitepeoplespriorities
It’s a complete travesty that the media isn’t paying more attention to the shooting or the events that followed and an unbelievable comment on the US’s social situation that either happened at all. However, this post comes across to me a bit as complaining that a depressed person timed his suicide inconveniently: Robin Williams brings joy to the hearts of journalists and politicians, not Politicians and journalists exploit the death of a bipolar man to avoid dealing with the real issues occurring in the world at the same time.
One point I haven’t seen addressed is: How are the people in Ferguson treated by the police on a day-to-day basis? I don’t think this kind of violence comes from just a single event. I suspect that this was just a breaking point in a long history of abuse and humiliation.
My first reaction to reading this post was, “Oh, C’MON!” I’ve spent the morning reading about both stories, caring about both stories. But then I got to Carlie’s post (@24), and I think her summation was right on target, and completely turned me around. Just watched a video on Raw Story of cops in riot gear with their weapons drawn on city alderman, ordering him to leave. And they’ve pushed all of the media out of Ferguson. That is seriously terrifying. I’m sad about Robin Williams. I’m scared that the public is going to lose sight of what’s happening in Ferguson.
Wes Aaron @ 31
Have a think about that for a second. How far would you need to be pushed before you lash out like that? Tell you what, come back after you’ve been dehumanized for a while and tell me what it’d take to reach your breaking point. You know that urge to throw the controller through the TV screen when you’ve just wasted your afternoon trying to beat the next boss on whatever game you play only to have it beat the shit out of you even though you’ve done everything right maxed out all your stats? Imagine that’s your life. Every. Fucking. Day. What would you burn down?
Twitter is actually an excellent source of information here, folks. Really, you should check it out. Last night while the police were chasing reporters out of the city, social media was telling the story (stories).
Indeed, there’s history. Ferguson is a suburb of Saint Louis and white flight has turned it into a majority black town in the past 30 – 40 years. Yet the city leadership remains mostly white. The police force is 53 people, 3 of whom are black. (Also 3 are women.) Though black residents comprise 65% of the population, 95% of traffic and other police stops are of people of color, despite the fact that the statistics collected by the police themselves show that white people are substantially more likely to be carrying contraband. Cops will sometimes shut down an entire few block of traffic, right at rush hour, just to do a car-by-car check of registrations, licenses, and open warrants.
I got most of this from @DNLee, whom PZ has cited previously. She’s from the St. Louis area and was among many sharing local knowledge about the situation.
Y’all can stop badmouthing Twitter now. You don’t have to like it, but it is an important vector for resistance, independent media and activism.
Taliciously Shriked:
And after he was shot the first time, he was shot 9 more times.
Resisting arrest apparently
Congratulations, PZ, you just came out on the same side as Republican Party of Minnesota deputy chair Chris Fields. Or as one of the tweeters put it, ” Yeah, people can’t have thoughts or concerns about more than one thing at a time. I always forget that part.” Otherwise we get into competitive tragedy syndrome, e.g., “Why are we worried about on boy in Missouri when a thousand are dead of Ebola in Africa and we can’t waste time on Ebola because their are 40,000 dying on a mountain in Iraq because they are surrounded by an army of religious maniacs.” It goes on ad infinitum.
justawriter:
Not the point.
The point is that the media has been focused on Robin Williams’ death to the extent that they are hardly reporting on the far more significant issue of the ongoing police brutality in the US and almost inexorable slide into a police state. Yes, the death of Robin Williams is tragic. The death of Mike Brown is another sign of how bad things are in the US in general, and in specific for people of color. To not focus on this in the media is to deny that it’s a problem. Which is part of the problem.
http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Heavy-police-presence–270609091.html
From the article Tony linked, above: “Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson says St. Louis County Police have taken over the investigation and the officer involved in the shooting has been put on paid administrative leave.”
Man walks up to another man who is minding his own business, pulls a gun, demands that he obey or be killed, the first man starts to obey and the second shoots him multiple times anyway. Why does this narrative mean “put on PAID leave” rather than “arrested and charged with first degree murder”? The fact that he’s a cop makes it worse, not better: he’s supposed to be a professional that knows how to handle people, including people who are upset, rude, or even violent.
Please do feel unhappiness and regret at the thought of Williams’ death — nowhere do I say that you aren’t allowed to because other people are dying. My point is that the media are flibbertigibbets leaping from one ongoing, deeper story to a pop celebrity story–that an obituary shouldn’t ever trump real news.
The stories are racial discrimination in Missouri, a war on refugees, a dangerous plague, and a dead comedian. Which one do think has the biggest impact on people’s lives, and which one requires no significant thought or policy decisions? And which one gets the most prominent screen space on all of our news media?
@justawriter 47
What is this even?
The entire point of this is that the country is sweeping a *very real police racial brutality problem under the rug* because a white guy died (this time. Next time it’ll be because someone won at tennis, or a dog did something adorable on youtube, or…).
I fail to see how any GOP member would have a problem with that.
In case anyone is having trouble answering PZ’s questions here: the death of Robin Williams, tragic as it was, does not require significant thought or policy decisions. The death of Mike Brown has an impact on the lives of his friends and family, as well as society at large (as yet another case of police brutality).
I would argue that all 3 require significant thought and policy decisions: the racial discrimination in Missouri and the rest of the country obviously requires consideration and action as it is abundantly clear that violent racism is still a major problem in the US and will keep being so if we don’t make changes. It’s obvious that a dangerous plaque should be treated as aggressively as possible and that finding a cure for it should be a priority. But doesn’t a suicide highlight the fact that psychiatric care in the US is still very suboptimal and suggest that changes to reduce the stigma of seeking treatment and improve treatment might be helpful? The story in Missouri is the one that should be getting the most attention and suggests the need for the largest changes, but all 3 are suggestive of social ills that require changes.
PZ, while I get your general point, you are oversimplifying that a bit. Williams’ death could, should perhaps, be used to open a discussion on depression, its stigma in society, suicide and suicide prevention.
It doesn’t have to be a mindless fluff piece on his death, something that doesn’t require significant thought.
Sure, it also doesn’t have to be the sole focus on the news, either.
Yeah, dianne at #54 says it way better than I could.
Oh, I’d agree there–I’ve actually seen people wonder why he was depressed, since he’s so rich. Do you really believe the stories are about opening a dialog about depression?
Disagree. Or, rather, I agree that Robin Williams’ death as an isolated event doesn’t require significant thought or policy decisions. The fact that the suicide rate was increasing at last measurement and is the 10th leading cause of death in the US does call for significant thought and policy decisions.
Well at least Democracy Now covered the events in Missouri today. Thank jebus for Minneapolis community supported radio. http://www.democracynow.org/
DrMcCoy:
Should? Definitely.
Could? Theoretically.
Will it? Extremely doubtful.
The media hasn’t really opened up a discussion on depression, the stigma of depression in society, or suicide and suicide prevention. They’ve discussed the death of Williams and mentioned his battles with depression and substance abuse, but not to any great depth. Even aside from the fact that the media is glossing over or ignoring the horrible death of Mike Brown, they’re not exactly covering Robin Williams’ death with any great depth.
Sadly, no. At least, I’ve seen some twitter/facebook dialog, but then again they’re both onto the issues of race and violence in Missouri. The mainstream media, as far as I can tell, is all about how this is so unexpected and unpredictable and here let’s see a clip of Williams doing something to entertain us again and forget about it all. Oh, and pay no attention to the police officer behind the curtain. He’s just there to protect you from feral people.
I’d despair of humanity but I did that when the study that demonstrated that pointing out that laws were racist made white people support them MORE came out. Speaking of things that didn’t get the attention they should have. WTF is wrong with us?
Tony! The Queer Shoop:
And the doofus from Minnesota is upset the media isn’t focusing on how liberals are destroying children’s opportunity. The only difference is that he is trying to do something about (by getting more insane fascists elected) and we’re sitting around here complaining. I haven’t seen anyone here say anything about sending money to the NAACP, calling their congressmen, or even just reposting all this to your own Facebook accounts .
Here is the list of Mo. NAACP offices http://naacpmissouri.blogspot.com/p/local-branches.html
Maybe someone here could volunteer to help them create a decent website.
@58 dianne
*if* the news stories (and other stories of celebrity suicides) concentrated on this kind of thing, on the intense stigma attached to mental health services and those who seek them out (especially among the male demographics), and explored/compared the current mental health services policies of the US/Canada with other countries that have less of a problem with it, I’d be all on board.
But that’s not what this is.
This is a poor fluff piece about a person who was famous, and is therefore more important than everyone else, and how their death is going to make all the not-famous people lesser because there’s one less famous person around being famous and rich.
It’s disgusting and cynical, and I feel it’s kind of against the entire point of Robin Williams. Were it possible for him to still communicate, I have a feeling he’d say something like “It wasn’t suicide, I just didn’t manage to loosen the belt after I came”
Probably not, but they should.
I’m with you at the ranting about everything being 100% mindless orbituraries.
But to me, it sounded like your solution would be to nearly completely ignore his death (and the surrounding circumstances) in favour of only focusing on Mike Brown’s death (and the surrounding circumstances). And I very much disagree there.
dianne:
Yes, you’re right.
justawriter @ 62
Whereas you’re you’re sitting around complaining about people complaining about something you don’t think they should be complaining about. You certainly showed us, dinchya?!
@62 justawriter
are… are you seriously using the “you’re just complaining on a website” schtick?
justawriter:
So the fact that I’ve written about it on my blog and commented on it on Facebook is meaningless unless you’re made aware of that.
Well here’s your notice.
I’ll make sure to run everything by you in the future.
Granted that Catherine Nardi is a racist asshole, but I don’t see the relevance of race in comparing one death with the other. You stated:
“I mean, really: young 18 year old black man gunned down for walking in the street vs. 63 year old white comedian killing himself?”
If Bill Cosby died and received the exact same amount of media attention, would you state:
“I mean, really: young 18 year old black man gunned down for walking in the street vs. 77 year old black man dying of natural causes?”
The very same CNN that is sensationalizing Robin Williams death did the same when Trayvon Martin was murdered by the racist Zimmerman. The problem is our f’ed up 24 hour cable news that latches on to a single story and like a broken record, repeats it till we’re blue in the face. It’s all about ratings and nothing to do with the sorrow over either the death of Robin Williams or Michael Brown. I think what they are televising is an insult to Robin Williams given his progressive politics. I would have little doubt that the “white guy” Robin Williams were he alive would join the chorus of social justice in condemning Michael Brown’s death.
Tony! @ 68
You know that brains in vats theory of human existence? Totes true. Hence, if you’re not aware of something happening, it’s not happening because, even when you’re aware of it, it’s not really happening. Didn’t you get the memo?
ragdish:
We live in a country where African Americans make up a disproportionate number of prisoners in jails and prisons.
We live in a country where African Americans face police brutality at a significant rate.
Neither of these facts is given significant media coverage. Yet the media will cover the tragic death of a white celebrity.
White privilege. The desires and interests of white people take precedence in the media over the brutal death of young black man.
Do you see the reason for the comparison?
I just stumbled on an add for an idiotic movie called “lets be cops”
the premise?
A pair of dumbasses buy realistic looking cop costumes for halloween, then discover they can do whatever they want if people think they are cops.
so they do.
I do not have words to describe the amount of acidic bile this movie brings up.
#72, Tashiliciously Shriked
So it’s basically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Captain_of_K%C3%B6penick_%28play%29 ?
ragdish @ 69
Well, he probably wouldn’t have said “black man” but the same principle still applies. An extremely successful celebrity dying of natural causes, regardless of the color of their skin, taking precedence in the news over massive human rights violations happening left and right would be a travesty.
Someone at the top of the thread complained that PZ is comparing two unrelated stories to make a broader point. I disagree; they are related, they’re temporally related. They are concurrent events, and that is a great opportunity to see how they are treated by our media and the population. I think it’s a perfect time to be talking about these things. Wonderful petri dish scenario we’ve got, imho…..
funknjunk:
Yep.
We’re getting to see what is deemed more important by the media, and many people in the US.
Yeah, Dianne, but that’s not what the conversation in the media is about. Perhaps it should be. I would say so. And while both police brutality and mental illness can both share media space, instead an endless slide show of the works of a beloved funny man is the extent of all news coverage.
And that’s what the point is. His death, with no substantive reporting or attempt to start a conversation about mental illness, shouldn’t be the focus of the attention of media.
@73
No, because that actually has a point. This movie is just bullshit to allow a pair of fuckwits to hang around, drive recklessly, wave guns around, and assault people randomly.
Like cops do.
On a tangential subject, about our preference for bad as opposed to good news:
http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2014/08/do-we-really-prefer-good-news-media-research-says-no
Not really earth-shattering stuff, given the popularity of conservative talk radio.
I watched with disgust as the police responded to protestors in Ferguson last night. What better way to fix the situation than by deploying tear gas and firing rubber bullets at a crowd of unarmed, non-violent protestors. Hey, I supposed it is better than killing them pretty much in cold blood. The KTVI anchors appeared pretty concerned about the tear gas once it actually started choking their man on the street (oddly less concerned were they that it was being fired at people standing in their street or their yards).
At present it seems there are two stories about Mike Brown, and both point to callous murder. The first comes from the eye witness, who says the cop stopped, told Mike and his friend to get back on the side walk (paraphrasing here, I believe the more polite official approach of an esteemed officer of the law was closer to ‘Get the fuck on the sidewalk’), almost hit both Mike and his friend with a car backing up to yell at them some more, hit Mike with his door trying to get out of the car, choked him, shot him once in the car, again as he ran off, and then executed him as he kneeled on the ground, hands up offering up zero threat whatsoever 35 ft from the vehicle – without, apparently, saying a damned word.
The police story is that Brown got in an altercation and grabbed for the gun – whereupon he was shot in the police vehicle – he then fled and was shot a number of times – multiple shell cases were found outside the vehicle, although last I heard the police knew it was a number greater than two, but not that much greater. Brown died 35ft from the vehicle in which he was initially shot – because yes, once you shoot someone and they run away there is nothing less inherently evil than discharging your weapon at them multiple times because you may have perceived that they attempted to take it from you.
So even under the most charitable interpretation of events which is the official police line – the officer who killed Brown flat out murdered him, one might argue that the first shot fired is justified in some sort of sick twisted way – but based on the Police story it would have been the only shot that has the remotest justification – unarmed teenagers with bullets in them who are running away do not pose a threat to anyone.
Not as sad, or infuriating, but the most common response I’m seeing is that of bunker mentality amongst surrounding (and some pretty far away) neighborhoods, predominantly white – gun toting asshats getting ready to fight off hoards of marauding angry blacks, considering going in to Ferguson to help business owners defend what is theirs etc etc (because clearly the right thing to do when a population with no voice reacts in one of the few ways they can to demonstrate the abject shittiness of the situation is to fucking kill them for stealing a damned TV, setting fire to a car or breaking a window.
Well, TV’s and car stereos are more important than black people, after all.
Absolutely this. I saw on twitter that Fox News (Fox News! The most conservative of them all!) was told to leave, but I haven’t had the chance to track that down to other reports to verify. I mean really. They even don’t trust Fox News to not put the police in a bad light. That’s really, really bad.
Nobody filming what was actually occuring would have been able to put the police in a good light. Armored thugs firing projectiles into a crowd of peaceful protestors is a pretty hard sell even for Fox News, never mind their local affiliate stations who actually have to exist within the populations they’re reporting on.
If you want live updates, go to Twitter and check out the feed of @antoniofrench, a local alderman who has been filming vines and posting them incessantly since Saturday.
Whoever voted for him should feel very happy with their vote.
This is a follow up to comment #49, posted by Tony.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/eyewitness-michael-brown-fatal-shooting-missouri
http://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/police-shooting-draws-massive-protests-317336131948
Dorian Johnson, who says he was an eyewitness to the shooting, joins Chris Hayes in an exclusive interview.
Good for Antonio French. *immediately goes to retweet his entire feed*
More links from journalist Wesley Lowery via Twitter:
(twitter link) MSNBC – Eyewitness recounts his friend’s death
—
(twitter link) WaPo link
[Interesting – the article appears to have gone down or no longer exists as I was trying to cite it. – Pteryxx]
—
(twitter link) WaPo link
Like Sally said above, this is such a good illustration of how powerful a tool Twitter can be. So much harder to sweep these things under the rug than it would have been even 10 years ago.
from LA Times reporter Matt Pierce: (twitter link)
Yes, the media pre-empts everything else of importance whenever there is: a) a kidnapped white woman; b) shark attacks in US waters; c) a white bronco on a CA highway….
This feels different, and as much as I agree with everything you wrote, the Irish in me welcomes the wake the media is providing–it helps me grieve, reflect, and appreciate the life and the loss of a loved one.
The untimely deaths of John Lennon, MLK, Bobby Kennedy, & Prince Di felt the same. We’ve lost another great humanist.
Michael Brown’s death is an ongoing tragedy that shouldn’t be disregarded or overshadowed. I grieve for both, for all.
Armored thugs firing projectiles into a crowd of peaceful protestors
“They hate us for our freedoms”
For a non-twitter collection of links, check out HuffPo’s liveblog – I know, HuffPo is sloppy and full of woo but they do have a social media curating presence.
(HuffPo link)
From the liveblog: Washington Post reporter’s thoughts on last night in Ferguson
The one ray of sunshine, to me, in all these protests, is that the protestors refrain from escalating the violence. You’ll notice that consistently it’s the cops bringing the violence – protesters don’t run to WAL-MART and buy a deer rifle or a shotgun. It speaks to me that there’s a better side to humanity, and it’s not the cowards in the black body armor with the armored vans and the guns.
More from Pteryxx’s MSNBC link @87:
Wes Aaron:
No reason? Really? You’re disgusting.
See also Jason Thibeault’s post: (link, no thanks to FTB’s front page)
—
via Soraya Chemaly: (twitter link) The Root – #IfTheyGunnedMeDown
—
I cannot get to the Washington Post articles or even their front page, and the #Ferguson hashtag is exploding.
More on Dorin Johnson, key eye witness to the shooting of Michael Brown:
Daily Kos link.
Ferguson, Missouri is 67% black, with a police force that is 94% white.
Jesus vomited. I don’t have words for the travesty the media is committing, let alone the cops. This leaves me feeling very sick.
I think the only objection I have to this post, PZed, is that it feels like* you’re saying it’s Williams’ fault that the media are being so shitty about this, when my understanding is that he’d probably be mocking the ridiculous disproportion of the media reaction, too.
Otherwise, yes, absolutely. Not only is the media not starting a discussion about depression or suicide (not the same topic; not all suicides are by depressed people, and most depressed people don’t attempt or succeed at suicide), they are really just falling over themselves to talk about the enormous tragedy that a human ended his life, while virtually ignoring the brutality of an innocent young man put down in the street with less compassion or consideration than would be given to a rabid dog. It’s a pretty nasty indictment of their priorities, and of their view of our priorities.
* I don’t think this is what you intended, but it is how it comes across, to me.
Al Jazeera’s article includes a damning census map of St Louis by racial demographic, with Ferguson marked on the northwest edge of the urban (read: black) center.
(Article link) Direct link to interactive map using cartodb
You know what’s fucked up? I only learned about the happenings in Missouri because my police scanner app on my phone alerted me that it had a surge of listeners to St. Louis County’s feed. I didn’t see it anywhere on my normal channels.
Pteryxx,
I was just going to drop the same link. The pictures are horrifying, and the map is damning. Good on Al Jazeera for putting that on their front page.
That’s what you call a quotemine, to use just that sentence. Ignore the rest of the text, about how this is important for his friends and family, and how the media jump at it like vultures and pretend it is an objrectionable framing of Williams’ suicide.
Wes Aron
So the kid is dead but you’re more concerned about things being destroyed. WTF is wrong with you?
Dear Muslima…
WTseriousF? They’re acting like animals? First, that is just stupid, second, that justifies what? Shooting them like a dog with rabies?
Nope, no reason whatsoever. Totally none. The kid was never shot…
beergoggles
Ah, but you know, those are real and serious reasons. Not like your kid getting shot…
PZ Myers, why are you such a terrible person?
StevenD Jasper, why are you such a fucking troll? Get out.
StevenD Jasper:
Let’s try for specifics, StevenD. PZ is such a terrible person because:
He pointed out the abysmal failure of media in the U.S.?
He pointed out that too many people are much more concerned with celebrity than human rights?
He pointed out the slide into a police state going on in the U.S.?
He pointed out that our president is too afraid to make a statement on the murder of an 18 year old by a person granted authority?
That’s enough for now. Pray tell what has your shorts in such a knot.
If it wasn’t his suicide they would find *something else* to cover instead of the racist killings. A celebrity feud or meltdown or movie or whateverthefuck. It seems kind of shitty to use this suicide as the case to illustrate the media’s racism. Suicide resulting from long-term mental illness is a damn important issue that is overlooked.
Yeah, everyone needs to go look at Antonio French’s twitter feed: https://twitter.com/AntonioFrench
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A town that the media has been forced out of and is on police lock down for peaceful protests should surely warrant a word from our president. *crickets*
–
Fuck that. This country is fucked up.
Sorry for scooping your link, yazikus. #notreally #hivemind ;>
—
from Tony Messenger, editor at the St. Louis Post-Dispatch: (twitter link)
Michael Brown and the Disparity of Due Process
—
For live tweeting of the unrest last night, see the feeds of reporters Valerie Schremp Hahn of the Post-Dispatch and Julie Bosman of the NY Times.
Julie Bosman: (twitter link)
Ah, and right on cue… since of course we can’t have a news cycle without some conflict, a Fox News commentator spews some bullshit in the middle of all the heart-warming clips and calls Robin Williams a “coward”. Normally I’d get angry about that, but in light of the MUCH MORE IMPORTANT news that’s not being covered, the story of a Fox News host being an ignorant asswipe feels more like “Tuesday” than “outrage.” But hey, as long as the focus stays on the dead entertainer and not the police brutality!
CaitieCat:
I felt the same way initially. Mostly based on:
After reading and processing the post, I realized that wasn’t PZ’s intent, but it still muddied things up a bit. I think the OP would work better without that line.
Skeptifem:
Yes, that’s true. It’s also been brought up in earlier comments, along with the fact that the media has no interest in starting a dialogue on the state of mental health help or the stigma of mental health issues in the U.S.
I suffer from horrid depression, like so many. I had a shitty therapist many years ago who asked why I hadn’t already killed myself. As I walked out the door I said “I’m too curious about how fucking worse this world can get.” It has gotten a lot worse since then. I’m afraid the riots will escalate. French Revolution redux.
skeptifem #107
FTFY
skeptifem #107
Try again…
FTFY
Many excellent photos, and more eyewitness accounts, at this link:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/police-protestors-again-clash-outside-st-louis
StevenDJasper:
Fuck off troll.
Another young black man was killed in an act of police brutality and you take this opportunity to offer an empty criticism of PZ because what? You don’t like him? He desecrated a cracker? He criticized your hero Dawkins? He banned one of your Slymepit buddies? He dares to talk about feminism on his blog? Come on, what’s your goddamned excuse?
You know what? Never mind. Please, please let the fucking door hit you on your way out and never come back you insensitive assclam.
(and if you’re going to whine with your buddies elsewhere, please tell them that The Queer Shoop leveled enormous amounts of vitriol at you; I’m sure you’ll get your wings then)
Thirding Antonio French. He’s live-curating twitter coverage of the protests in real time.
(twitter link)
(twitter link)
(twitter link)
skeptifem @107:
Please read the thread.
hyrax:
It’s possible to be quite angry about both. There shouldn’t be any surprise over a Fox news commentator saying something disgusting, that’s what they do, isn’t it? I imagine they’ll get around to saying disgusting things about Michael Brown in no time.
Every time an angel farts, a Slymer gets their wings.
A national moment of silence is to be held on Thursday to commemorate victims of police violence.
Link: http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=15134
Tony:
Unless you know for certain that StevenD Jasper is a denizen of a certain forum, could you please not do this?
One thing I notice from the pics in Clayton as opposed to Ferguson demonstrations.
The cops there look like regular cops (at least in the pictures thus far) rather than armored brutes wielding clubs. (not necessarily a big distinction in terms of the reality, but the imagery is rather different) There appears to be a distinct lack of innocent protesters being teargassed or shot with rubber bullets.
One wonders if this has anything to do with the affluence of the area. (median income ~$85k, median house price ~$750k)
Inaji:
Sorry. I’d forgotten how not a good idea it is to go that route.
dianne has already covered the points I would have wanted to make, at 54.
In other words….
–
Also – sorry for the triple post, just remembering things after I hit Post – FYI, there’s a move afoot to shift away from the “committing suicide” construction, as there is some research suggesting that the use of “to commit” brings to mind “a crime” as a default complement, and that this connotation continues the stigma associated with suicide. The suggested alternatives are noted in the link above, and in this one:
“Died by suicide”, and “non-fatal suicide attempt”, for instance, take the crime connotation out of the language around suicide.
Cicely:
I take issue with the “he was unable to think positive” bit there. The insistence on positive thinking in this country is a fucking blight.
Pteryxx,
Thank you for all the informative links.
A flier being circulated at the protests today: (twitter link) (direct image link)
[A half-sheet of typed white paper reads:
Ad Hoc Committee for Justice on Behalf of Michael Brown
OUR DEMANDS:
1. The officer involved in the shooting death of Michael Brown be IMMEDIATELY identified.
2. The same officer should be immediately fired and charged with murder.
3. The Ferguson Police Department “Protocol Handbook” be distributed throughout the Ferguson community.
4. The racial composition of the Ferguson Police Department should reflect the racial demographics of the community.
followed by Action Items including the current protest, and a list of supporting organizations.]
PZ
I hear ya, but I’m afraid you’re gonna have to go “Well-liked comedian’s suicide is bad. Unarmed teen killed by police is worse…” to make your point to some people.
@ CatieCat
The LA Times interviewed a neighbor of Williams’ who said “it’s so sad when depression takes someone like that” which I thought was a good way to phrase it.
Thanks Beatrice. I get provoked when we random people on the internet have to step up and be the journalism.
Pteryxx:
Those things should not have to be demands.
Saad @ 131, don’t be dragging the Dawkins mess into this. If you want to discuss that, there’s a thread for it, right here.
Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. I’m not changing the topic. Just a joke about how some people weren’t seeing Myer’s simple point.
National Moment of Silence 2014 information at Gradient Lair: (thanks CaitieCat)
Saad:
Yes, I got that. I don’t think jokes are appropriate in this thread.
I get PZ’s point. I don’t even disagree with it. Yes, we should be paying more attention to things which, ultimately, are more important, and there is a definite imbalance here.
However, we should remember that at least part of the reason Robin Williams’ death is getting so much attention is that literally tens, probably hundreds, of millions of people have some pleasurable memories associated with his performances. Many people will have lots of such memories and associations. It’s not reasonable to think people shouldn’t be affected by it, or that it won’t be covered extensively by the media.
Inaji, I interpreted it as a slam at the idea that, “if only you’d think positive you’d snap right out of it”—and then, of course, it’ll be all unicorns and rainbows and sunny days. As pointing out that “the power of positive thinking” doesn’t cut it.
In other words, as another way of saying what you’re saying.
–
The important thing is that this white university professor and blogger made it well known that he supports awareness of racism and police abuse, and he’s not afraid to post a tasteless article pivoting off the recent death of a much admired celebrity in order to ensure we all know he’s one of the good ones. (That we, the attention-deficit sheeple who cannot keep more than one story in our tiny brains at a time, might end up distracted from both events and instead focused on this blogger’s lack of taste, is just a sacrifice he’s willing to make.)
Bravo sir! May the good people of Ferguson sing praises to you for your support, and hoist thee upon their shoulders when you arrive in person to support their cause (as no doubt you shall)!
tbp1:
And no one said that. It’s not reasonable for the media to ignore the murder in Ferguson, nor is it reasonable for them to indulge in misreporting events. It’s not reasonable that the media saturation of William’s death doesn’t open a much needed dialogue about the pathetic state of mental health care in this country. It’s not reasonable that there’s no opening of discussion about the stigma attached to mental health issues. It’s also not reasonable for the president to make a statement about Williams while ignoring the murder in Ferguson.
The murder of Mr. Brown is yet another signpost on the way to a very scary state of affairs. It is in the self-interest of most people that such a state doesn’t take place. When the death of a celebrity, popular or not, takes over to the exclusion of murder and rumbling of a police state marching forward, we’re in serious fucking trouble.
It’s just distressing that so many people care more about the life cut short of a 62 year old performer (because they have been entertained by him) than the life cut short of an 18 year old student.
So, they kill an unarmed black man for no apparent reason, but a white, heavily armed Soveriegn Citizen who set up a trap to ambush police and actually took shots at them gets captured alive. Good thing racism is over.
matunos:
Have you figured out the importance of your comment yet? Do us a favour and fuck off where your brave commentary about other people’s commentary will win you a cookie.
Cicely:
Okay, I can see that. Sorry, the whole ‘think positive!” thing makes me snappish.
Well, I have to agree with matunos: people shouldn’t discuss things.
matunos:
You are yet another person that misses the point of PZs post: the medias focus on the death of Robin Williams is overshadowing the ongoing brutal treatment of black citizens of the US (as well as other minority groups). Hell, the media isn’t even using Williams’ death to open up a discussion on mental illnesses or ending the stigma of mental illness.
ck @ 144:
Jesus Christ. That’s one hell of a contrast, ennit?
Also this is going to make me scream if I hear it again:
PZ didn’t even hint at this. He’s not talking about the inability of the public to care about multiple stories. He’s talking about the inability of the MEDIA to care about the police brutality going on in this country and how it affects minorities (or other very important issues that affect the lives of millions). Yes, Robin Williams died. Yes, it’s tragic, but the media is allowing his death to overshadow other, very important issues that affect a segment of the population that already feels like mainstream America doesn’t give a flying fuck about them.
(and remember, it’s not like the media is taking this opportunity to discuss mental illness constructively)
What a nasty rage-post. It reeks of a creepily indulgent level of self-righteousness that becomes no one, least of all, I glean daily from this blog, a privileged old, white cis-male.
You didn’t mock his suicide, PZ? For fuck’s sake, you thanked him for creating such a “spectacular distraction.” How is that not mocking him or his death?
beergoggles#39
Historically, white people in the U.S. usually riot over attempts at racial integration.
Inaji
Indeed; that’s the basic operation of a functioning legal system there.
lawl – when I turned on MSNBC (television, that *other* screen) I see news reporters gathering for a sheriff to give a press conference about…
…
…the death of Robin Williams.
“The world now mourning” and “although we won’t know the details for several days”. It’s nice that nobody has to protest in the streets to have medical examiners look into the circumstances of his death, isn’t it? (Very Very Important – were there drugs in his body! How constructive!)
Kenneth #152:
It was blatant sarcasm. Myers is vehemently critical of this “spectacular distraction”, so how could he be thanking him for it?
Pteryxx:
Oh for fuck’s sake.
And also compare the response to the Bundy ranch folks with this cop’s use of deadly force against an unarmed 18 year old simply walking down the street.
Dalillama @ 153:
Except in the case of non-white people. Then it’s different.
One positive about Robin Williams’ death is that it’s bringing depression (which millions of people suffer) to the forefront of conversation. Maybe it’ll spark many of those who suffer from the terrible disease to get help.
If Robin Williams’ suicide can prevent another one, or ten, or twenty, isn’t it worth it?
Kenneth 152
Please read the thread. If “mocking” is the correct word, then the target of that mockery is the media, which chooses to treat his death as more important than—in effect and quite possibly in intent using it as a distraction from—institutionalised, racist murder.
Kenneth @ 152
Because it’s mocking the media for using WIlliams’ death as a spectacular distraction from police officers murdering black teenagers in broad daylight. But then, you’d know that if you bothered to read for comprehension.
retinella:
Do you really think so? Earlier in the thread, someone pointed out (and linked to) a fox news person claiming Williams was a coward. From what I’ve seen, the media isn’t the least bit interested in opening or directing a constructive discussion about the state of mental health care, or the stigmas attached to it.
Richard Dawkins was kind enough to tweet this post, so there’s lots of enthusiastic people commenting here without actually understanding the point PZ Myers was making.
I am not sure what the US media is covering right now, but I notice the CBC and BBC are now more or less back to regular news on their websites. The Robin Williams story is still there on the front page, but currently the CBC is leading with a story Michael Brown, and a story about the issue is in the “Other Top Stories” section on the BBC. Their reporting could certainly be better, much better, but they are there.
When I saw that Robin Williams had died I was sad, I had been planning to watch Dead Poets Society in the next day or so, I had really enjoyed some of his work and the topic of depression and suicide hits home for me as well. But sadly the comments on stories quickly made me feel cynical. It seems that no matter how often suicide is discussed many people will never really learn anything about it. The comments were full of people who still cannot understand that being rich does not magically make mental illness go away, with platitudes about tomorrow being better, or complaints about the selfishness of it all. It made me think that even if the media had reacted in a helpful way the message would never sink into the minds of many people.
Travis:
I have no doubt you’re right, which is a sadness all on its own. Even so, the media didn’t even attempt to open a dialogue about mental health issues, which might have, at the very least, tried to direct the discussion into useful channels.
I’m disappointed with a post that Jerry Coyne put up: http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/08/12/robin-williams-depression-and-stephen-fry/
I don’t know what is going on over there, but it seems as though Jerry either misinterpreted the nature of this post or has some other issue with it that I can’t identify. Most of his commenters seem to have not read this post or can’t be bothered with anything other than trashing PZ. I visit WEIT a lot but Jerry’s stance on Israel and social justice concerns are becoming a little too unnuanced for me to continue checking in there.
In fairness, I don’t think the media is as evil as this may make them seem. They would have lost their shit at Williams’ suicide even if Mike Brown was alive and well.
Saad:
Sure. That doesn’t make it right or mean that well deserved criticism shouldn’t be expressed.
Saad #167
And they, for some reason, should not be expected to re-prioritise? In medical circles this would be known as triage. In media circles, there used to be an expression, “hold the front page.” It’s not exactly a new concept.
Looks like PZ Myers has been attending the “Richard Dawkins’ School of Baffling Insensitivity”.
Sure, a beloved actor who has touched the lives of millions has killed himself, but…. LOOK OVER HERE! I FOUND A RACIST WOMAN! OH MY GOD THERE ARE RACISTS IN THIS COUNTRY!
How dare cable news dedicate their programming to the death of a rich white man, when there are poor brown/black people being killed, hurt, discriminated against in this world! How dare anyone morn any death of anyone whom PZ Myers thinks deserves to be mourned!
How dare any news channel dedicate any time to any story that PZ Myers feels is not as important as others!
/sarcasm
PZ, there are always horrendous things happening to people in the world, every day. Its horrible, but that is how the world is. There is not enough time in the day to give each horrible story ENOUGH attention. If you think 24hr cable news is where you are going to find news coverage times weighted by moral significance and importance of the story, you have been asleep for 20 years.
Seriously. This is a horrendous blog post.
Incoming apology follow up post in T minus 2 hours.
And, because this is important to me, I want to point out once again that the Venn diagram of depression and suicidality is not a single circle, but two which overlap some. Most depressed people don’t even consider suicide; a lot of suicidal people are not actually clinically depressed. It is quite possible that for Mr. Williams, he was in the overlap part, but let’s try to keep the distinction clear, and not conflate the two categories as though they were identical populations.
Also, Inaji, I’m with you: “just think positive” is a rage-making thing to say to a depressed person, feels basically victim-blamey to me when people say it, and I don’t tend to react well. If I could achieve anything like that by simply thinking positive, how stupid would I have to be not to do so? And if you don’t think I’m that stupid, why are you suggesting that I’m eschewing The One Amazingly Simple Trick a Local Mom Discovered to Beat Depression!, and not assuming that maybe it’s a skosh more complex?
Please be kind to your loved ones who are depressed. Take your “positive thinking” suggestion and shove it somewhere uncomfortable. Like, under the seat cushion or something.
SMH. Somebody should tell rhese fools in Ferguson that looting and rioting isn’t really in your best interest right now.What tge situation needs is calm, rational thinkers so that we can get to the bottom of what happened.
FINALLY – MSNBC is covering Ferguson now.
airbagmoments:
So you see no problem with the media focusing an overwhelming amount of attention on the tragic death of a white celebrity while overlooking the brutal death of a black man at the hands of the police? The latter being yet another example of how badly black people in the US are treated by the police as well as once again showing that the media does not treat the concerns of black Americans as newsworthy.
I can’t believe that you’re so insensitive and apathetic at the continued violation of civil rights of Americans that you’d criticize PZ for wanting the media to not just cover Williams’ death, but to-among the many things it can do-also cover the story of Mike Brown’s death with the significance it deserves.
That tells a lot about your priorities.
****
Sagar Keer:
That explains a lot.
****
Kenneth:
I wish PZ would amend the original post to apologize for this line, bc clearly people are going to continue focusing on this rather than the meat of the post which is not about mocking Robin Williams. That people like you cannot see this is ridiculous.
Well, yes, Pteryxx, you can’t expect them to rush straight to the back of the media bus, can you?
Inagi, no problem—this is an emotional bundle of topics, any way you slice it.
–
They sure should re-prioritize. But it’s not a deliberate attempt to cover up a police murder. It’s a (guaranteed to be succesful) attempt to get people to visit their websites. It is a cold hard fact that most people in the U.S. and even more in the world would be more attracted to and curious about a Robin Williams kills himself headline than another no-name teenager being killed by police one (whether it’s out of indifference or out of discomfort).
That said, I would be thrilled if the media took a more socially responsible, activist role in presentingthe news.
Just went to find Dawkins’s tweet:
PC Myers will enjoy the fact that ideologues on the right are making William’s death into convenient talking points for their side as well!
Congratulations, symmetry achieved!
Jeff S:
Right, the ongoing murders of young black men is just how it is, after all, hey, what are ya gonna do about racists and racism? You’re an especially disgusting asshole, Jeff S.
Wow, PZ. Really uncalled for! I’m kind of hoping you are in jest.
Saad #177
I agree. But that merely makes PZ’s point stronger. A society which is more interested in gawking at celebrity than in people being murdered and treated inhumanely is, in my humble, a sick society. That the media actively and purposefully promote celebrity-gawking over what they should be reporting merely to make a profit is an obvious failure of profit-first capitalism.
I don’t understand how anybody can defend national news outlets for downplaying the Mike Brown murder. Robin Williams (as of 2:30PM EDT) has three tiles on the top of USA Today’s main page, and several more other spots. Mike Brown? I could only find the one (which is about the police, not the victim, really) and then another one in a headline slideshow.
Tearjerking pays.
Chie @ 178:
Really? I know I shouldn’t be surprised, but…I’m surprised.
CaitieCat – yes, that’s what pisses me off. There were two simultaneous press conferences involving sheriff’s offices and investigations of deaths – and the Robin Williams one got top and live billing, to show all the officials and investigators talking about preliminary findings and what they don’t know yet, while the Mike Brown one involving calls for action and proper investigation, accounts of misconduct, police blockading parts of a city and barring the media, got skipped over. They showed a few seconds of clips. Really, would it have been so hard to headline with the urgent, complex, issue-raising story, and cover Williams’ death thirty minutes later?
Nicholas:
Did you even read the post?
Have you read the thread?
FFS, critical thinking skills *activate*!
…And MSNBC’s coverage of Ferguson is over. Wow.
I had been listening to Phil Ochs just the other day because of the link posted here, so I guess that is why this suicide of a famous beloved person (by me) did not hit as hard as the news of Phil’s death hit me it was just another one in a long string of pointless deaths .
One of the reasons the media jumps to cover stories like this on instead of other serious ones and the way they are covered is that is what the people respond to. The people respond to more superficial stories because they are sweet and sad but almost meaning less personally and none threatening there for safe to pay attention to. Stories of an intractable terrorist war in Israel, horrible disease, and police violence and racial injustice are deeply troubling so anything else is “better”, the media is not in the business of information as much as selling eyeballs to advertisers so they just follow popular interest.
uncle frogy
Shorter Jeff S: The way the world is is the way it’s supposed to be because if it wasn’t supposed to be that way it wouldn’t be that way therefor nobody should talk about trying to change it. QED.
Shorter caesar: I was worried you all might have forgotten what an empathy-deficient fuckwaffle I am, so I just thought I’d swing by and ooze a bit to remind you.
Yes, I read it all. I’m still rather disgusted. I used to be a fan of PZ, but this is over the top even for him.
Saad:
Perhaps not deliberate, but in the end, it’s the media saying “don’t pay attention to this story, it’s not important, but look over here, we have something we’ll inundate you with for hours, if not days, while offering next to no substantive commentary on the nature of mental illnesses or the state of mental health in the US”. And they do it, as usual, to a minority group.
****
Chie @178:
So PZs post didn’t even warrant a blog post by Dawkins? He just Tweeted it? There’s no room there to discuss the meat of PZ’s post. No wonder the acolytes of Dawkins are flooding the thread. Of course they’re not bothering to even read what PZ said, so the blame is every bit as much on them.
Is the new
@ Tony!
That wouldn’t fit with Dawkins’ MO. First he has to send out a ham-fisted tweet about it and then, when people react negatively, he retreats back to the blog to deplore the Twitterverse’s failure to bow to the obvious supremacy of his logickz.
Tony! #191
I think we’re probably getting some from WEIT, too. (And I finally unsubscribed. Between this, the Dawkins-worship/apologia, and the constant accusations of anti-Semitism for daring to criticise Israel, I’ve had enough.)
Y’know, all of you who are happily defending the media, or going along with Dawkins’s latest asshole moment, imagine for a moment: two young white men are walking along the street, and a black police officer yells at them to get on the fucking sidewalk, continues yelling at them, calls them fucking animals, then proceeds to assault one of them, then murders him. Do you suppose the media would still focus on Williams to the exclusion of that murder?
Ah, script #3 from non-readers expressing disappointment. Especially when they don’t get to why they are disappointed…
Well now that I have had a chance to actually research what happened in Missouri, ya I agree, it’s pretty apparent that this is a case of an officer gunning down a young man in cold blood. (At the time of my first post I had gotten home from work and what a shitty day it had been. I had only seen a partial report on what had happened and wanted to know more before passing judgement. I didn’t have time to get a clear understanding of what had happened, but with some research I’m better informed. So fuck off assuming I was justifying the cop killing the young man.)
As for the looting and burning the store to the ground… Well what happened in the Treyvon Martin case, no looting, no destruction of property. The point being wrongful death doesn’t justify destruction of property. It is mindless violence and that is all it can ever be. You sound like someone justifying a whipping boy, well because the cop wrongfully killed this person your business deserved to be destroyed. How could anyone justify such actions is beyond me. (As to my first post to sum it up I will quote Christopher Hitchens. “I am only a slightly higher evolved ape.” My point was that CNN was using what was said by the officer to further outrage. What the riot and two plus days of protest wasn’t enough to bring attention to the story? They need more destruction to better their ratings? All CNN cares for is that they have a story to show.)
And let’s end the day with relentless clips of Robin Williams and obsessing over his suicide. CNN is disgusting and inhuman. This type of media lives for misery and death. Do I need to remind anyone of the OJ Simpson trial, 911, or the countless other stories that they plaster everywhere and relished in.
Given that I was less than 150 feet from where a person was run over by a hostler (think semi truck but a little different whipping around the complex), and had to be life-lighted to the nearest hospital. (This happened near the start of my shift.) I was a more concerned about someones welfare than the spectacle of death that CNN was obsessed with that day. It is good to know the person is still alive, mangled, but still alive. And what CNN was playing was soo disgusting I really just felt it needed to be said how inhuman they were acting.
As for Missouri, well it’s sure refreshing to know that the civil movement of the 60’s hasn’t changed them much. Next they should have an all day marathon of All in the Family (because Jackie Gleason’s racial humor was soo much fun) followed by KKK programming. Fifty years later and these imbeciles still can’t get with the times or at least hire officers who aren’t privileged racists. Then for good measure add CNN in with its renowned morals and what do you get… The best way to start a long week off. Death, destruction, misery, and pain all there on the TV for people’s entertainment.
Nicholas:
Because the media ignoring the murder of a young man by a police officer is just so fuckin’ funny.
Inaji @ 184
Every time I think I can’t be more sickened by Dawkins, he goes and proves me wrong. Cop murders a young man in broad daylight because the kid didn’t bow and scrape to his satisfaction, just one incident among many instances of blatant injustice and abuse of power by police. Just “news about brown people.”
Jeff S:
So you see no problem with the media focusing an overwhelming amount of attention on the tragic death of a white celebrity while overlooking the brutal death of a black man at the hands of the police? The latter being yet another example of how badly black people in the US are treated by the police as well as once again showing that the media does not treat the concerns of black Americans as newsworthy.
To you and the rest of these fools flooding the thread, celebrity death by suicide is more important than the ongoing systematic brutalization of a minority group.
Priorities.
BTW, PZ isn’t saying the media cannot talk about Williams’ death. In fact, the media can discuss many things, but they sure do seem to shy away from talking about the problem of racism or police brutality in the US. Funny that.
I can see the conflation between this comparison and Dawkins building now. It’s not the same at all despite the fact that some of the same emotions and characteristics are in play, and the use of the comparisons are totally different.
With Dawkins it’s a criticized but otherwise comfy guy tossing about comparisons of people with much less social power and displaying little ability to let the perspectives of the people he is talking about change his perspective. Dawkins’s purpose is to merely be able to make a logical point and seems to care nothing for the suffering of his “objects of comparison”.
This comparison involves setting the people with little social power above the single person with lots of social power whose family (also with social power) will have little trouble finding support in their time of mourning. The suffering of people is very much in the mind of PZ and he absolutely shows a willingness to be sympathetic to the Williams family as he points out very real and very important problems worth talking about. Problems that are creating suffering. You can substitute the “kidnapped white girl” stories in this context.
The media has a tendency to avoid subjects that will make their viewers with more social power feel uncomfortable. Fuck that.
There are a thousand crappy excuses that a dominant social culture uses to minimize and if possible totally hide the suffering of less dominant groups. Some rudeness (violation of custom = social habit) will be necessary in getting attention. But this rudeness and Dawkins’s are not things as comparable as many may be about to pretend.
The social power of the situation matters.
Oh yeah? Any reason we should believe this hackneyed claim?
I understand using events to make a point but I do have a very basic problem with this post. The point that the news is dominated by “the white person of the day” can hardly be argued against. I don’t believe he is arguing that it is an orchestrated conspiracy as we all understand it is both a conscious and unconscious media and political bias generated by the unfortunate fact that “white people’s” problems generate more interest, ratings, and money. This is sad fact we all much deal with and work toward correcting. What makes this problem so insidious is that it is not malicious and therefore harder to fight. The people who wrote and prioritized this unfortunate event very likely did so with honest respect for the man and belief the news warranted its placement based on the audience demands and they are likely correct. The problem is not with the media; it is with the business and the audience and that is what makes it a difficult problem.
Now here‘s the rub. The PZ Myers piece here is specifically written with the intent of using Robin Williams’s death to promote a cause nevertheless just. The media event may be distracting us from more important issues by fact, but not by intent and not in any manner malicious. This PZ Myers post exploits the event with intent and clear malice which is apparent to the reader. Some might see this as “evil” intent. I propose this kind of hypocrisy is more damaging to the intended cause than saying nothing at all.
When you argue against a problem, you should not be committing wrongs worse than you accuse others of doing. This is a basic requirement of presenting a just position.
Wes Aaron:
That’s exactly what you did. Your post is still there, you know. Don’t go any further trying to make excuses for yourself. It’s not helping.
Nick Gotts, as Nerd mentioned above, that is script #3.
Nicholas:
Then you either didn’t read it for comprehension or you don’t care (or fail to care enough) that another black person has been murdered at the hands of police officers in yet another example of the extreme brutality people of color face at the hands of so-called public servants.
The real point of your article: “I’m morally superior to the rest of you b/c I care more about brown ppl than you do, and I can show indifference to the death of a rich white guy. Thereby sticking it to the man and subverting the dominant paradigm. Go me!” Actually you’re a narcissist and a bigot. And somewhat of a disgrace to the Left.
So what you’re saying is that CNN should have suppressed the officer’s bigoted comment, which is clearly highly relevant to a story about white police gunning down an unarmed black teenager.
Marvin Gardens:
You didn’t comprehend the OP at all.
PZ isn’t showing indifference to the death of Robin Williams. He expressed anger and frustration that the media doesn’t care enough to give decent coverage to the brutal death-by police-of another black citizen.
considerthis:
Clear malice? No, I don’t think so. Disgust at the disregard of murder and racism, yes. Upset over police state tactics, yes.
These events are the number one and number two stories on Google and Yahoo News, that William’s suicide is number one is not quite the media conspiracy to “distract” from “the real news” that you paint it to be. If you think this is about priorities, I think you’re creating a false dilemma.
Attn. Gen. Eric Holder made a statement regarding the death of Michael Brown earlier yesterday: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/11/eric-holder-michael-brown_n_5669766.html
I see the point you want to make, but the “white lady” FB post was hardly national news, and it seems disingenuous to imply that because this woman is white and a bigot she must be a Robin William’s fan… and that if we are also grieving we must not care about the news regarding Ferguson.
Marvin Gardens, please pack up your mind-reading act and fuck off.
Marvin Gardens@207,
Would you care to share the mind-reading technology you clearly have access to with the world?
considerthis @ 203
That is some impressively tortuous reasoning you’ve got going on there. I hope you didn’t hurt yourself.
unclefrogy @188:
And this is a problem. Too many people don’t consider the death of minorities at the hands of police officers to be significant news. It’s part of systematic racism.
Marvin Gardens:
Yes, of course, you’re right. We certainly should not get overwrought over news about brown people. After all, they are fucking animals, feral and violent, and hey, the murder of one of those brown people by a cop is non-news. Much more important for people to pay attention to Williams, and opine on how he could have exited the stage because he had lots of money. Yep, the priorities are in place there.
I’m enjoying all the first time posters who WERE LONG TIEM READERS AND ARE NEVAR COMING BACK!!!1!!!
Also, today I learned criticizing the media for ignoring a goddam riot in favor of wall-to-wall celebrity suicide coverage is Teh Werst Thing Evah.
@189:
This empathy term gets used way too much. Theres a time for empathy and there’s a time when you have to call a spade a spade. Looting and burning down buildings,in your own neighborhood no less, makes you look like s bunch of opportunistic thugs. It also distracts from the legitimate beef they have with the police. There is NO EXCUSE for looting, and the people rationalizing it also deserve criticism, end of story.
No wonder Dawkins released the Twitter Krakken! You played against the script PZ! As an older white male liberal, you’re supposed to post a hagiography when another member of the older white male liberal club dies, not get all indignant that, when it comes right down to it, NOBODY, not even the older white male liberals, give a flying fuck that another unarmed black kid got shot to death for no discernable reason other than for committing the simple, mundane, everday crime of BBWB: being black while breathing. Richard Dawkins didn’t work this hard just to someday see his death play second fiddle to some silly little atrocity in some far flung corner of the world populated by darkies! You’re threatening everything he has worked for! Now post the hagiography or turn in your membership card!
A gross misrepresentation of my views would be those of a especially disgusting asshole, true. But thankfully, I don’t hold those views.
Keep on trollin’ Inaji.
considerthis @203
Consider this:
How many days since Mike Brown was murdered?
How many days since Robin Williams died?
President Obama has expressed his official condolences to which family?
Maybe not malicious, but difficult to describe as ‘unintentional’. Odd sort of silence there, with respect to Mike Brown and all subsequent events in Ferguson…
Ah, yes, “call a spade a spade”, showing caesar’s usual empathy for centuries of racist exploitation by ‘just happening’ to use a derogatory term for the human beings he’s sneering at as animals.
Oh, and ‘thugs’, the right-wing dogwhistle to mean ‘black men who are insufficiently deferent to their white betters’.
Fuck, you’re a completely unredeemable assbag, caesar.
Since I don’t this these, why don’t you explain it in more detail. And maybe, you might see where you might be wrong….
1967:
Oh FFS. Could you folks at least make an effort to think before hitting the keyboard? The U.S. is stuffed full of people like the woman quoted in the post. Yes, that’s just one post, however, she’s hardly alone, in case you haven’t noticed. She’s a good example of the type of person who would have no problem whatsoever with the media saturation on Williams, with little coverage about the murder of Brown.
@Inaji: You left out the bit where the police officer threatened to run over the two men walking down the street.
Shorter caeser: I know a police officer murdered an innocent black boy in broad daylight but the real crime is that some people broke some things out of anger.
Jeff S:
Yes you do, that was clear in your previous post. It’s still there, go look at what you wrote.
considerthis @203:
I don’t think you know what the intent of the media is in this case. You’re guessing. Or projecting your own wishes onto them.
I don’t know the intent of the media either.
I can see the effect though, and that is a distraction from a very important issue affecting minorities in the US: the abuse of power from law enforcement officials.
Gack, brain freeze #223. should read
Dianne:
Oh, yes. Thank you, Dianne. This would be “news about racist white people with guns and authority”, I suppose.
It would be nice if these sorts of assertions came with quotes and explanations. Because in order to judge if a persons feelings about something are accurate I need to be able to see precisely what they are talking about.
Outrage is as context specific as suffering. Outrage at the casual treatment of socially powerless rape victims is not the same as outrage at the careful treatment of the death of a celebrity to make a social point that draws attention to suffering. Especially when the “victims” of the suffering are people quite able to handle their suffering, “strike back” at PZ if they feel slighted, and PZ is displaying that he feels for them as well.
Nicholas@190
I think you mistook Pharyngula for Yelp…
caesar:
Nah. It doesn’t get used too much.
You just have an insufficient level of it you apathetic asshole.
…no change in the status quo, no punishment of the guilty party.
Didn’t you hear? A white man with a gun got away with murdering a young man for the crime of walking down the street.
fyai, MSNBC is back to talking about Williams, but after the clips from his movies and all, now they’re talking about the prevalence of depression and the difficulty of getting treatment due to mental health stigma. (Williams had been seeking treatment, according to police, probably from that press conference earlier.)
—
And while this is harsh and personal reading, as far as I can tell it’s right on target. And yes, this is Cracked.
Robin Williams and Why Funny People Kill Themselves
The media isn’t overcovering the Robin Williams death to distract from the Brown killing, it’s the big story of the day. If you compared a station covering the Brown case vs. Williams, the Williams one would clobber it in the ratings. But theMike Brown story has legs. It’ll be back. Just wait until the cop gets cleared of the shooting.
Inaji
I would never claim that the U.S. has anything that could usefully be described as a ‘functioning legal system’.
CaitieCat @222:
I don’t think caesar has quite reached the point where he understands what a dogwhistle is.
****
Jeff S @220:
Dude.
Your post is still there. We can all read it. Those views show you YES, YOU, to be a disgusting asshole.
Further to dianne @ 234
…the guilty party invited for an interview on CNN (totally unlike any members of Trayvon Martin’s family except as an after thought), the guilty party invited to participate in a celebrity boxing match (which fortunately didn’t end up happening)…
Caesar:
Huh. So the blatant racist fueled murder of a young man is just a legitimate beef? My my.
greg hilliard:
Which is having the effect of distracting from the murder of Mike Brown.
But the media, as it does so often, doesn’t show the same concern for the death of People of Color that it does for white people.
Institutionalized racism.
Greg @ 237:
From mine @ 195:
Y’know, all of you who are happily defending the media, or going along with Dawkins’s latest asshole moment, imagine for a moment: two young white men are walking along the street, and a black police officer yells at them to get on the fucking sidewalk, continues yelling at them, calls them fucking animals, threatens to run them down, then proceeds to assault one of them, then murders him. Do you suppose the media would still focus on Williams to the exclusion of that murder?
I would love an honest answer to that from one of you media defenders. You won’t, though, because you’d have to face the reality of racism in this country.
Tony! 239
He understands dogwhistles perfectly well. The disingenous ‘what, what did I do’ is part of the schtick.
@240 seven of nine…and sells his “art” for >100K. So other white men have learned that shooting a black teenager not only has no ill consequences, it has actual good consequences for your future life. Great deterrent to crime.
I’d be more convinced in the knee-jerk assumption the media is focusing on the Williams story coz he’s white if someone could convince me the top story wouldn’t be about Eddie Murphy if he’d committed suicide.
I seem to remember Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston’s deaths didn’t pass unremarked.
So, you took a beloved man’s tragic suicide, and decided to tie it into a rant about racism and injustice in America. I’m going to follow you closely “PZ Myers”, and see how many different ways I can use your name and the things you hold dear as tent poles for pieces about pedophilia, violence towards women, political corruption, religious extremists, and any other evils that produce a knee-jerk reaction by their mere mention. Yep, it’s a lazy and irresponsible way to generate interest in my writing, but I’m sure you won’t voice any objections to me using this piece you dragged Williams into as a template, would you?
“Defrocked Priest Facing New Sex Abuse Charges Draws Strength From PZ Myers”
You like?
I like.
I swear, it’s like these people are seeing the point and taking out mailboxes and telephone poles as they swerve frantically avoid hitting it.
Death X (Robin Williams) is bad. Death Y (Mike Brown) is worse. If you think that’s an endorsement for Williams’ death, go away and learn how to think?
Another thing, Greg, to you and the others who are defending the media on distinctly unbalanced coverage. There are lots of brown people on the net. Many of them are participating in this thread. Have you taken a moment to consider how all those non-white people feel about yet another racist based murder being shunted to the back pages in favour of something else? (Here’s a hint, there’s always a something else.) How about how all those non-white people who get to read about just how feral and violent they are? Or all those non-white people reading about how a murder is just “news about brown people”?
You showed a dim awareness, when you remarked that the Brown murder had legs, but we all have to wait until the white cop is declared not guilty. Why will that be a big ass story? Because the murderer is white. Perhaps a clue will be forthcoming.
@ caesar 218
You are mistaking explanations for excuses. It’s a common habit and often explanations can be excuses. But when it comes to a community being treated like shit in ways that cause intergenerational differences in how the media, justice system, and other cultures treat them I find that the explanation aspect is far more reflective of reality.
bryanpesta:
Good advice, you should heed it.
Shatterface @ 246, please answer 243. Thanks.
nich:
Nicholas@190
I used to be a fan of PZ
I think you mistook Pharyngula for Yelp…
Nope. I used to enjoy his well-thought commentary and criticism on relevant topics. Now, he seems to be just looking for things to be outraged by.
jonmoles: Jerry got it exactly right. This post is an insensitive volcano of rage-puke at those who are legitimately saddened by the death of Robin Williams, and the news media doing their jobs in providing the precise level of coverage their viewers demand. If PZ has a real beef with the priorities of America’s news-watching public, there are better ways to express it.
The real distraction here is putting up a blog post about Robin Williams and instead showing a giant photo of some random racist lady whose words nobody should be giving a half shit about.
Seven of Mine:
No shit. I’d say it was unbelievable, except it’s right in front of my eyes.
You can’t get much more insulting than that.
Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm @ 214.
The post is about the death being used to distract from other issues. Post uses the death intentionally to to make its own point. PZ is no better than the media by exploiting the event. its a pretty simple idea if you think about it. Try it. Its not a “torturous” as you may believe.
Yes because being angry about mainstream media having no fucks to give about law enforcement murdering black people is such a stretch.
“Relevant topics”. Oy.
Jeff S @ #170
The apparent inability here to appreciate nuance, or read for comprehension, is just about the only ‘baffling’ thing here.
That’s actually not what PZ wrote at all. Instead he wrote this:
And then he wrote this:
Which is sarcasm and true. The media became instantly obsessed with the death of a celebrity over and above the rather significant news comming out of Ferguson.
You say,
and yet no one here, and specifically not PZ have said anything of the sort. To paraphrase many voices here, including PZ’s, the media is capable of covering more than one story and doing sufficient journalistic justice to each one. The balance of focus in this instance, however, is significantly weighted toward the death of a celebrity. It is an important fact that there is a story of the brazen murder of a black youth and the consequent events in the context of a racist culture and ongoing police brutality against a minority population beng overridden by the death of a white celebrity. In this case, race does matter, because it is yet another instance of the media devoting much less time to an important and ongoing issue (systematic, racist opression of a minority population by authorities).
PZ simply has not pointed out a greater injustice as a way of diminishing another injustice, which is what Dawkins did with ‘Dear Muslima’. That’s not what has happened here.
Except PZ never said this. He did say these things:
@ #10
@ #51
You must be reading something different from most of us here. This post and the subsequent conversation (when people aren’t being corrected or asked to do something fucking reading) is about the appaling lack of perspective and proportion that the media is demonstrating, in real time, over the coverage of a significant event in an ongoing slide toward a police state (at least for one segment of the population) and the obituary of a beloved comedian. This is not difficult to grasp.
PZ also said this at #57, which is rather sympathetic,
Which points out another lack of proportion and perspective in the media. There could have been a substantive conversation about depression and mental health along with coverage of Williams’s death. There wasn’t. It’s endless clip shows and interviews, overshadowing a story, the meat of which cannot be missed by mere coverage, of, again, the ongoing slide toward a police state …
And people think that PZ is cynical! I do not believe that PZ is under any delusions about how awful the world is. I’m not interested in what your point there is, but do elaborate; I might enjoy the descent into irony.
You might appreciate (or not) how difficult it might be for anyone to read anything above that sarcasm tag as sarcasm considering you end your post with:
Yeah. Horrendous. But that’s just how it is.
_____
It would be really nice if people would just read the post and then read at least some of the thread before jumping in and letting everyone know how lazy they are by telling us how much of a poopyhead PZ is for parroting Dear Muslima. That would be really, really nice!
Tony: “Then you either didn’t read it for comprehension or you don’t care (or fail to care enough) that another black person has been murdered at the hands of police officers in yet another example of the extreme brutality people of color face at the hands of so-called public servants.”
So how does that compare to a preventable death of a person suffering mental illness (depression)? Is that unimportant? Coverage of the killing has not disappeared. Why can’t we be upset about both events?
considerthis @ 257
PZ using the situation to talk about how fucked up the situation is is just as bad as the situation itself. Got it. Fuck off.
So much for the lull in the thread.
Max G Force:
My comment @200 applies to you as much as any of these other drive by commenters:
richcon:
The U.S. is stuffed full of random racist people. That’s important to understand, especially in light of the fact that it has been increasingly common for random racist people to decide to murder another person, and all too often, get away with it. You should give a shit about people like the random racist lady, who will probably mourn for Mr. Williams, but have nothing but a happy attitude about one of those feral, violent animals being murdered. After all, it’s not like a college bound 18 year old was murdered for no reason, that would only happen if it wasn’t news about brown people.
@ Max G FORCE 247
See 201 and 231.
The situations are not comparable in the way you want them to be.
It will be interesting seeing your logic. Not every means of and reason for getting attention is appropriate. Casually comparing rapes to each other to make a logical point increases suffering pointlessly. Carefully comparing the media focus on a comedians death versus lots of other things far more deserving of coverage because of associated suffering that is being hidden by how society acts is not pointless.
“Defrocked Priest Facing New Sex Abuse Charges Draws Strength From PZ Myers”
Well what is the logic?
bryanpesta:
Nope.
PZ isn’t saying the media shouldn’t talk about Williams’ death. He’s saying they shouldn’t do it to the extent that they ignore yet another example of institutionalized racism. They need to give equal time to the concerns of oppressed people in this country. And they would if they gave a shit about the concerns of that oppressed group, which in this case are African Americans.
Then what do you suggest? It is easy to criticize, not so easy to come up with ideas.
Breaking via twitter – Ferguson no-fly zone? from Rachel Lippman of St Louis Public Radio (Twitter link)
Which I take to mean no news copters and no (civilian) drones…
@222:
Ah yes, looting and rioting cannot be criticised because “look at all the horrible racism they endured for centuries “. Bullshit! Excusing bad behavior on the part of the riotors because you want to show that you’re down with the brothas, just makes you look like a sycophant. You, Tony, Seven of Mine, and anyone else excusing this behavior are just a bunch of bandwagoners jumping on the anti-racism train because you want to appear morally superior. Breaking News! Black people are just like everyone else. You’re not racist if you point out where they have done something wrong.
Nicholas @253:
And now your true colors shine through. A young black man was murdered and PZ feels that the media is focusing too much on the death of Robin Williams, and not enough on another in a long line of examples of police brutality against the African American community and you seem to think this isn’t worth being outraged by.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOU.
rq @ 221
I didn’t use the word “intentional” in my comment so you are bit off base. “intent” was used in places where I made the point that the news priority is intentional for the purposes of popularity and money. Nobody is try to suppress anything. The problem is that the audience doesn’t care about injustice as much as they do about Robin William. Its a fact backed up by decades of data that people, in mass, suck. Sorry to break it to you. I agree with you that it is a bad problem, but if you don’t understand the problem, you can’t fix it.
Pteryxx:
Right. I’m sure they don’t want anyone to see what they are doing. That’s a good sign.*
sarcasmTony @ 242: Institutional racism? Yeah, I can see that. The media is pretty much all run by whites.
Inaji @ 243: We have evidence of that already in all of those “missing white women” stories in recent years. And I’m not defending the media as much as explaining it’s decisions. I would have made the same one. More people are interested in Robin Williams than in yet another wrongful killing of a black kid.
One thing I would like to see, though, that would have people like Catherine Nardi climbing the walls is if blacks started to open carry in very neighborhood. (Then again, that didn’t go over so well in the ’60s.)
considerthis @ #257
The post is pretty transparently about how the media lacks the perspective to continue to cover a significant story (Mike Brown and everything subsequent) or a substantive coverage of a comedian’s death (suicide, mental health) in favour of slide shows about the latter.
It is also about what a good distraction this will be for politicians who can continue to ignore the Mike Brown story and instead give statements about dead celebrities. Convenient, because as the discussion makes clear, murdered black people and police brutality and the apparent police state are politically untenable conversations to have.
See, that’s not true. The post points out that a celebrity death, however tragic, doesn’t warrant the kind of coverage it’s getting when there is this other significant thing happening.
That doesn’t make sense. The media isn’t exploiting anything. It just (yeah, ‘just’, hah.) is severely lacking in balanced coverage.
It’s simple, yes, and it’s not true. I think ‘torturous’ is probably a good word to describe the process by which you arrived at your conclusions.
richcon @254:
Normally I like a lot of what you have to say, but you didn’t read the OP for comprehension. Nor is it apparent that you’ve read the thread (if you have, you’ve disregarded the concerns of a great many people, which doesn’t paint you in a good light).
caesar @ 269
No, we’re decent human beings who care that police officers murder innocent people for existing while not white. And you’re still an empathy-deficient asshole. Go ooze somewhere else.
Nicholas:
Yes, it’s just outrage culture, Nicholas. There’s no need to be upset over the murder of an 18 year old man. Nope.
sarcasm tagYou are missing the point, but then, I don’t think you care. PZ is saying that reports of celebrity deaths should be treated less a lead news, and more as a secondary/filler item. The MSM seems to be shying away from coverage showing the country as racist/sexist/bigoted, and has for a while. RW’s death allowed the MSM to sink the news from Ferguson. People need to keep being reminded that we have a ways to go to have all the people in the country as equal participants.
Dammit, I forgot to add:
Don’t you mean “…the news media doing their jobs in providing the precise level of coverage their WHITE viewers demand”?
The media clearly doesn’t think African Americans deserve to have their concerns covered in the media. Only white Americans seem to matter.
White privilege.
Institutionalized racism.
richcon
If you really think the media is ‘doing their job’ then you clearly don’t know the essential role media has in a modern democracy.
1967
It would indeed be disingenuous to imply that, but if you even had a basic understanding of English, you would know that this was not implied at all. Sheesh, if this is the level of intellect the Jerry Coyne/Dawkins/DJ Grothe bat-signal has to bring, then ‘ll pass..
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls @ 223
I accept that using the word “malice” may have been too much hyperbole (perhaps wrong). The point was that the intent in the post was to use Robin Williams death to make an unrelated point and its probably a mater of opinion if doing such a thing is a malicious action. It is certainly worse than doing it without the intent to suppress another story.
@ Thomathy, Such A ‘Mo 260
Don’t hold your breath. Most people tend to absorb precisely as much context as they need to in order to address the things that are most emotionally important to them.
So they will offer characterizations of how they feel about things they see. This is sensible in a trauma victim or directing attention to important suffering, but pathetic in a person outraged at what needs to be done to draw attention to suffering that is not actually causing suffering to people with plenty of social power and ability to deal with their suffering.
Others will offer out of context snips and almost all will totally miss the main point because it’s not convenient and forces them to talk about the suffering and the power differences (whereas I saw plenty of people addressing Dawkins’s main point, and him mistaking disagreement with “not getting it”)
No, you are a racist if you aren’t condemning the police department, and the policeman, for the unnecessary death of the black teenager. Why aren’t you condemning the policeman, and the police department? Instead, you complain about the victims of the police department which seems engaged in selective policing….which is blatant discrimination, and you tacitly approve….
@55, DrMcCoy
You know what? No. Fuck you. Suicide is not, no matter how much you play it up (and I come from a family with a history of it, and am never quite sure whether I have it or not), a crisis. It’s not news. It shouldn’t be preempting anything on news programs. You want to have some kind of commemoration, a mention in the entertainment section, which leads to a dialog? Sure. But if the cops are fucking launching teargas at people, then that ought to be preempting anything up to a threat of war. Quite frankly, the only sane way to run things would have been to knock Williams’ death out of the headlines in favor of the shooting and riots. That the exact reverse happened is appalling!
How kind of you to concede that! It’s so nice to know that, in your ideal world, we might actually get to know, eventually, of some of the things of genuine importance which happen, once we’re done hearing about celebrities!
considerthis @ 281
It’s not unrelated, you oblivious shit. They’re two events happening at the same time and PZ is taking note of which one is getting the attention of the media and deploring the fact that it isn’t the situation involving law enforcement officers murdering innocent people for failing to be white.
considerthis@271
And that is exactly the issue here. That is what the post is about. I understand the problem – also that it lies deep enough for even the President to pass over (intentionally or not) systemic racism turned to a breaking point by the death of a black man, in favour of expressing condolences to the family of a deceased white man. Do you?
Also, saying that people ‘in mass’ (did you mean ‘en masse’?) suck does not for a moment excuse continued sucky behaviour, especially considering they (we) have had plenty of opportunity to learn. Nor does it excuse blatant police violence with a distinct racist bent.
Pteryxx @268
:o That is… rather frightening.
Sagar Keer
Oh, not only Dawkins; Jerry Coyne blogged about it (mentioned above), Dawkins retweeted it and DJ Grothe retweeted it also with this extra douchiness on top:
D.J. Grothe @DJGrothe
This an hour after he retweeted Christina H. Sommers. What an inclusive enlightened being he is…
Hmm…in terms of media coverage, there’s good news and bad news from the NYT right now. The good news is that the protests of the murder of Brown are now the lead story. The bad news is that the attached photo montage starts with a picture of a young, unarmed, black man who is being held at gunpoint by at least three white police officers in full riot gear. Seriously, dudes? You need that much padding and fire power to deal with one unarmed man? You must not be very good at your job.
Greg @ 273:
And your decision would be wrong, just as it’s wrong on the part of msm. Media has power. It has the power to direct people’s attention to racism resulting in murder. It has the power to direct people’s attention to the slide into a police state. The obsession over celebrity doesn’t have to be catered to on a constant basis. There’s plenty of room for hard hitting coverage on racism, murder, and a police state. The people who only want to read about Robin Williams are free to do so. That doesn’t mean that such blatantly imbalanced coverage is okely dokely. Instead, media shares your blasé attitude: “yet another wrongful killing of a black kid.” Perhaps the fact that it’s another in a long line should be a big fucking story. Perhaps phrases like “wrongful killing” should be shelved, and the truth be told: it was a racially based murder. An execution.
Yeah, because that would really cut down on the amount of black people who are murdered, especially those murdered by cops. Way to be an asshole, Greg.
Which shows you miss the point. When talking about the media and what it is talking about, and its lack of priorities, one must use what the media is talking about. Now, how would you go about trying to make that point without using what the media is talking about?
Tony! The Queer Shoop:
Your skill at missing the point is rivaled only by your ability to “copy & paste”.
The clumsy attempt you made to put words in my mouth to imply I’m a racist is transparent and falls flat on it’s face.
You have clear agenda to play the victim and argue everything in terms of race.
You reek of ignorance and appear to be completely unselfaware about that which motivates you.
Seconding rq @ 286 and anyone else making that point.
The focus of PZ’s article is the media and our collective priorities. “That’s just the way people are doing things” and similar is a really unperceptive excuse when the point is right up there, and implicit in many many comments.
considerthis @ #281
It’s not unrelated, considerthis, and PZ is not using Williams’s death. America is steeped in racism. The media has no perspective of the scope of the problem if it considers it appropriate or journalistically responsible to cover the death of Williams as it has to the extent that the Mike Brown story becomes essentially secondary.
And PZ’s post very clearly is about the media and its coverage (or lack there of) of two stories overlapping temporally and, in the context of American racist culture, that the story about a white comedian’s death gets more news coverage than an on-going and significant event involving the murder of another black teenager.
caesar @ 269:
No one here is defending the looting or saying it’s a good thing. And no, it’s not racist for pointing out where some black people have done something wrong. What is racist is trying to turn this particular story–the authoritarian, racially motivated murder of an unarmed black teenager by the overwhelmingly white policy–into a story about the small number of people who used the cover of the protest to engage in violence against property, or trying to spin this as both sides are equally bad.
Of course, with the abandonment of dog-whistles for outright racist remarks such as calling outrage against policy brutality just being an act to show PZ’s “down with the brothas”, I assume caesar’s racist career here is ending soon.
@ Max G FORCE 291
Well that’s an interesting set of characterizations based on some feeling. Would you mind pointing out where Tony did all of that? For the benefit of the audience.
Whereas Max G FORCE is apparently psychic and knows what motivates Tony better than Tony does.
So far we have “I used to be a fan”, “looking for reasons to be outraged” and now “playing the victim” and an ill-disguised “playing the race card.” Shall we take bets on which mad lib bigotry apologetic gets tossed out next?
Max G FORCE
You
are an asshole.
This is what you call the fallacy of relative privation. I’m disappointed.
I spent four days in a state prison after being arrested around the protests at the Rodney King verdict. I have been talking about police brutality and the prison industrial complex to anyone who will listen…for decades. I did not stop posting or making noise about Ferguson or the extra judicial execution of Black men when I started to talk about Robin Williams or why this hurt so much.
In 2009 my father attempted suicide…he knew he was dying of cancer and didn’t want to “burden” us with it. He looks a lot like a bearded Robin Williams. Robin dealt with the same issues my father did…so do I. I am a fan of all his dramatic work..but also his work off screen. He was a dedicated progressive. He was also a home town boy.
I have the same issues he does..without the wealth.
So to all the ablist fucks who are telling me how to feel about ALL of this…who imply that because I am hit hard by this… that I am not also hit hard by what’s happening in Ferguson (and the rest of the country…)
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOU.
You are the kind of people who make me want to leave this planet.
Our capacity to love and feel is not limited by your rationales…Those who do feel, feel deeply.
Our capacity for pain is not always channeled into APPROPRIATE expression according to your time tables.
I’ve had trouble crying about my Dad…and by extension myself.
I am also probably a person who has been to jail, beat up and marched more than any of you specifically about police brutality in communities of color, about mental health parity, about gender discrimination, about war…
So have a seat. And keep your ablist bullshit in check. You don’t know who you are hurting with your pronouncements and declarations.
I am not a sheep and I don’t need you oh so rational shepards to show me the error of my ways.
Wow, sometimes I miss the incursions of total idiots to this blog, proudly waving their flag of ignorance, whining and missing the point completely of what is being said. A couple of years ago it used to be creationists and various christian apologists. Now it is fellow atheists*. Well, the last couple of years have really open my eyes. I sincerely had the belief that if religion went away, the world would magically be a better place. Yes, I agree, I was a total idiot back then, but I learned a lot since then…
* caveat: I’m not talking about all dissenting voices, I can clearly see how some people might be shocked by the OP.
Yes. A wealthy, white, western, cis gendered, heterosexual man, of great wealth, privilege, intelligence and education had a disability that killed him. If it can happen to him: loved, respected, secure and free to pursue anything he chose to do —
— imagine how much more debilitating, overwhelming, alienating, stigmatizing, disorienting, terrifying, demoralizing, defeating … this disability is for people WITHOUT his advantages, privileges, opportunities!
PZ Myers missed a PHENOMENAL opportunity to discuss disabilities here, because HIS focus was on a “white, wealthy man,” not on putting everyone else in the center of the discussion! He blew it! But “white, wealthy man” is the center of his experience, discourse and interests. He has a great deal of cache now, “speaking for” the rest of us, who are perfectly capable of speaking for ourselves, if he’d stop drowning our voices in his own, shrill, Chicken Little self righteousness!
A lot of wealthy, white men make a living off our struggles. He’s common as dirt.
As for me, I hope secular humanism takes a sober look at our disabilism, our stigmatization of mental health challenges.
But it won’t be coming from a wealthy, white man like Myers, I fear.
richcon @256:
Insulting towards the journalists and politicians who don’t seem to care about another black man dying thanks to institutionalized racism and discrimination, as well as the another example of the abuse of police powers.
And remember, this goes up to the President. He offered comforting words to the family of Robin Williams, but where are his words to the family of Mike Brown? Where is his rage at the murder of yet another black man at the hands of law enforcement? Where is his acknowledgement that this is a systemic problem?
****
Nicholas:
I’m sympathetic to the family of Robin Williams. I recognize how horribly people with mental illnesses are treated, and I know that this country needs to devote significant time, energy, and resources to helping people with mental illnesses. I fully get that, and I don’t diminish that.
The problem is the media is devoting a disproportionate amount of time to covering Robin Williams’ death, and precious little to the death of Mike Brown. On top of that, in their coverage, they aren’t opening a dialogue on mental illnesses. They’re not talking about the state of mental healthcare in the US. They’re pretty much just saying “Robin Williams committed suicide.”
Do you recognize that people of color routinely have their rights trampled on in this country?
Do you recognize that law enforcement officials frequently harass, brutalize, imprison, or kill people of color at a far greater rate than they do to white people in the US?
Do you realize that the US is still dealing with the problem of racism, despite the end of slavery and the Civil Rights Movement?
Do you understand how it feels for an oppressed group to see the media decide that the murder of an unarmed black man doesn’t warrant being part of the news cycle to any great degree, but Robin Williams’ death does?
Can you see how people of color would be pissed off that their concerns and fears are not reflected in the media?
That’s what PZs post is about
Tony! The Queer Shoop @ 228
I do believe I do know and it’s a bit of a documented fact. The fact is that the media is slightly left biased.
http://martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/media_bias1.html
You would think a left biased media would cover more social issues. There is the problem with that idea. The media wants ratings, eyes, and “clicks” to make money. Is a good white story more popular than a negative black story? unfortunately it is for one reason; there are more white people than black people reading and watch the news. Hell, there are just more white people than black people as a simple matter of fact. Now doesn’t that seem like the more likely answer than to think there is some secret cult controlling the media?
I wish there was a group a bad guys we could chase down to fix the problem but it is just not that easy. It a really, really big problem and it’s with popularity driving the media. It’s Ockham’s razor. Sorry.
Cityzenjane, I’m so sorry this hits you so hard, it has to be a very difficult time for you.
caesar:
You just can’t read for fucking comprehension can you?
I never excused anything.
I criticized your racist dogwhistles you shitweasel.
Brony:
There’s an audience?
Do you think you’re performing?
Wow.
Sad.
Just to show how hyperbolic your post is, PZ is an associate professor at a state teaching university. To say he is wealthy is ludicrous.
And just who is busy claiming there’s a secret cult controlling the media, considerthis? FFS, please take your distilled idiocy elsewhere.
greg hilliard @273:
Do you know this for a fact?
Or is it possible the media is catering to white viewers and listeners? Is it possible that the interests of African Americans are deemed too unimportant to cover in the news cycle?
White privilege at work.
Max G FORCE
Bless your heart.
(Thank you Inaji)
Just frustrated with the avid compartmentalizers…
Matthew Zornes
No it isn’t. It’s about how the media spends it’s limited time, attention and focus. Try to keep up.
Seven of Mine, I’m down with that, as long as by “Bless” you mean “get a scanning electron microscope and see if you can locate”. Dude could have a Grinch experience and still end up not having quite a mole of heart molecules.
A white rich old man dies and everybody forgets the brown kid killed by a cop. This pisses me off. But the poor brown kid also pissed me off, because, you know. It made me forget about ISis and Genocide.
I have to go with Jerry Coyne on this one. It is one of the most contemptible pieces of writing I have seen in a long time. I would also like to see Dr. Myer’s evidence that the coverage of Robin William’s death is intended to distract everyone from the events at Ferguson, MO.
http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/08/12/robin-williams-depression-and-stephen-fry/
considerthis @281:
No, that’s not the point of the post. You’ve spectacularly missed the point.
We’ve discussed the point continuously throughout this thread. If you were reading without your blinders on you’d see it.
rq:
The statement you made in post 297 is my favorite.
It was the most straightforward and the most honest.
I don’t believe that statement to be completely accurate, but at least it wasn’t blunted by “Political Correctness”
Ah yes, the “the media are hapless slaves and servants of popular demand” gambit. Might be convincing to people who don’t consider that the media have a responsibility to accurately convey the news of the day to their audience. And prioritizing Robin Williams’ death, affecting and saddening though it may be, over the overt suppression of first amendment rights of the black citizens of Ferguson and the murder of Mike Brown, is getting your priorities wrong.
It’s true that they may not be doing racism (via the de-emphasizing of an explosive story regarding the racist murder of a black kid and the subsequent terrorization of his whole community in retaliation for said community’s failure to accept this injustice without protest) on purpose.
That’s the thing about racism, though. If it only worked when people did it on purpose, it wouldn’t be so insidiously damaging and corrosive to civic and social institutions.
@ Max G FORCE 306
Projection is easy. “No that’s you not me!” is a pretty simple one that is learned very early. I know you can do better.
Cityzenjane:
I know. I share your frustration.
See where the MSM put its coverage. It shoved Ferguson off the radar for a while. Prima facie evidence. But then, you do need to keep up.
And now we have “political correctness.” BINGO!!
@ CatieCat
Actually it was more an expression of my inability to find words for how feeble and transparent a dodge that was but your interpretation works just as well.
What is the “Political Correctness” you speak of, and where are the police to enforce it?
“thank God that we have a tragedy involving a wealthy white man to drag us away from the depressing news about brown people.”
What an absolutely rotten person you are, PZ. Only a person with maggots encrusting their soul would try to show the world how much they care about what’s TRULY important by minimizing the death of a fellow human being. I guess you hate when ethnic minorities are dehumanized, but it’s perfectly okay for you to do the same to Robin Williams before he’s even reached room temprature. After all, he’s just white and rich! He can’t have any value besides that, right? WELL THEN WHY DON’T YOU APPLY THE SAME TO YOURSELF, YOU WORTHLESS FISHBELLY CRACKER-ASS PRIVILEGED PRICK!?
@ observer15
“intended to” and “arises out of group behavior” are different things. Naturally they form a spectrum.
Brony @ 231
Outrage, malice – use the word you like. The point is that the post is about the media exploiting an event to cover other more important events and the post exploited the event more make that very point. It is hypocritical to do that. As for the horrible events themselves, you may feel that any method is justified because of the severity of the problem but I didn’t argue against that. I just said that hypocritical actions do not support your argument well, particularity if you are trying to convince people of your position. If this is just about rating to the choir, then we are both wasting our time reading this blog.
Matthew Zornes @ #298
You might read comment #286 or #280. Or read the OP or read the entire thread, or some part of it. This is quite clearly not an example of that informal fallacy.
_____
Brony, I’m trying not to be angry about the fact that you’re obviously right and that I already knew what you wrote to be true, so I’ll just award you with the Captain Obvious sticker. It’s getting increasingly difficult not to get mean here and you didn’t even do anything wrong and it’s not as though your post is for my sole benefit.
Coyne on his blogpost:
observer15
If this post is one of the most contemptible things you’ve read from either an atheist or anyone else, you’re not reading enough. You might even say that you react ‘too emotional’ on this post.
observer15:
Great, another person who can’t think their way out of a wet paper bag. No one said that Robin Williams’s death was intended to distract everyone from the racially motivated murder of a young man. You’d have to be seriously stupid to think that. What has happened is a saturation of coverage in regard to Mr. Williams, with little coverage of a racially motivated murder of a young man by a police officer. There’s been no balance whatsoever. That’s not hard to see, nor is is it hard to grasp.
considerthis @ #326
No matter how many times you say this it will not become true. PZ’s post is not exploiting anything. It is illuminating a problem using a temporally significant example of that exact problem. The only thing that PZ is guilty of is being timely.
Gee, and here you are minimizing the death by murder of an unarmed black teenager at the hands of police. Don’t make such a mistake again.
considerthis:
Because what words mean doesn’t matter at all, right? Y’know, this is the internet, and it has many dictionaries, most of them free to use, just a click away. You might want to familiarize yourself with one.
Max G Force:
Let’s try this again, so it’s easier for you this time:
Black people face systematic racism.
One of the many manifestations of systematic racism is police brutality.
Black people are accustomed to the media paying insufficient attention to their concerns. They are used to the media treating them as unimportant.
The media coverage of the murder of Mike Brown has painted him in a poor light and spread misinformation as well as sided with the police officers.
Robin Williams died from a suspected suicide. He was also dealing with depression. That is a tragedy.
The media has chosen to focus a massive amount of attention on the death of Robin Williams, to the detriment of a significant concern for many Americans who are non-White.
The media has once again chosen to not open a dialogue on race, police brutality, the police state, or the treatment of minorities by law enforcement officers.
All of ↑ THAT↑ was the point of PZ’s post, which you’ve managed to miss.
Yes, I have an agenda. I wish to help people understand the racial component in the medias decision to not give a rats ass to the death of yet another black man. I have been very careful to do so while also stating that it is reasonable for the media to also comment on Robin Williams’ death. I want more balance to the media. You are fine with the status quo. The status quo enables racism to continue.
@ alexreynard
Would you mind showing me where,
*PZ is “…minimizing the death of a fellow human being.”
*Believes “…he’s just white and rich! He can’t have any value besides that, right?”
Because this statement,
“thank God that we have a tragedy involving a wealthy white man to drag us away from the depressing news about brown people.”
Is sarcasm directed at the media and society at large, and other statements in PZ’s piece (that you totally ignore) demonstrate he is sad about the death of fellow human beings, and he is concerned about how we collectively value white celebrities versus racial minorities (with a general point about distracting ourselves from socially inconvenient suffering).
alexreynard:
We don’t have souls, alexreynard. What we do have in the U.S. is endemic, institutionalized racism, which is increasingly allowing white people to get away with murdering non-white people. On top of that, we have a media which wouldn’t know the concept of balanced coverage if it bit them on the arse.
tbp1 (#139)
And many people have memories of racial profiling, police brutality and extrajudicial execution of their friends and family members. It’s not reasonable to think people shouldn’t be affected by it. So why isn’t Brown’s murder and the aftermath being covered extensively by the media? Why is the coverage that exists portraying the protesters as unhinged criminals?
What is hypocritical is to complain about someone talking about what the media is covering, which is the only way to talk about what the media is covering, and not be able to explain how it can be done otherwise. It can’t. You have shown nothing.
I don’t think there necessarily has to be any intention to distract people from these events. The mainstream media in the US has a horrible time prioritizing their time and loves to elevate entertainment and celebrity news to top stories, and they allow top stories to eat up the majority of their time, especially on television news networks. Combine that with a little bit of bias, and it is a recipe for ignoring key stories for stories that should be reported and discussed, but should not dominate the news.
I do not watch news any longer, instead I read multiple news sites from a number of countries. Print media has a lot more density, I can read about a lot more in a short time period, but in addition, I can choose how much time I spend on a particular issue, I am not obliged to sit around watching blanket coverage the one event, I can ignore the lastest Justin Bieber story, and dig past the 2-3 top stories.
CBS St. Louis – Obama has issued a written statement. Source
That’s the entire statement, btw.
Yep, my post is still there…. and I stand by it.
The part quoted by Inaji states:
Still not seeing where I said anything that means the same as “Right, the ongoing murders of young black men is just how it is, after all, hey, what are ya gonna do about racists and racism?”
Inaji grossly misrepresented what I said as if I was saying that nothing should be done to fight racism or that I am acquiescent to world injustices. She then then called me a disgusting asshole.
I’m not stating that I am content with how the world is. That should be clear that with the “It’s horrible” part.
My point is that unfortunately there are horrible things happening to people of all races, ages, and social statuses all over the world. There are countless stories of injustice that SHOULD be given tremendous attention by EVERYONE, unfortunately it isn’t possible. News media, especially TV which can only show a single story at at time, has to decide how much time to allocate to each story. Thankfully local media, and internet media can pick up a great deal of the slack and give unnoticed issues their deserved exposure. Every single day, on every single newscast, worthy stories are completely ignored.
Of course there is a huge problem with the media not giving enough coverage to the plight of minorities, the best examples of which are the coverage of white kidnap victims vs non-white kidnap victims. The racism is plain as day.
The death of Robin Williams is NOT like that. It’s not because he is white. It’s because he is well known and beloved actor and when people heard of his death, they have a reaction and want to view programming that discusses this. The reaction would have been similar for a beloved black celebrity of the same stature.
For me, I was very saddened to hear of his death, and it hit closer to home as I’ve had someone very close to me attempt suicide. Many other people are affected by it for similar reasons. I turned on the TV last night and wanted to watch and reflect on Robin Williams, and depression… fuck me right? While watching the news last night I also saw the events in Missouri covered, as well as the ongoing horrors in the conflict in Iraq. To cover a celebrity death is not to say that their death is truly more important than all other news in the world that day. Nor is it to “cover up” stories that don’t meet their alleged agenda.
By covering the Robin Williams story, the news media is simply giving the public what they want.
It’s not because he is white, its not because he is rich, its because many people loved the man’s work and many more have been affected by depression and suicide and the story resonates with them.
What PZ did here was a cheap shot. If he wanted to make a point about the sad state of “ratings first” cable news, or the general acquiescence of the american public to world injustices, he could have done so on any other day, or even on today but not mentioning Robin Williams death as an example, and reaching to make it an issue of race. These problems with our media and society are not new ones.
alexreynard #324
I note with, erm, interest, that you quote a line describing Robin Williams’ death as a tragedy, and go on to claim that that line minimises his death.
Reading, you’re doing it wrong.
A. Noyd @ 336:
Just wanted to emphasize this for the hard of thinking crowd, who also seem to have a bit of a reading problem.
315: I have to go with Jerry Coyne on this one.
Agreed! Coyne is always a class act.
considerthis:
I get what you’re saying. You’re explaining the reality of the media to me. That’s not something I don’t grasp. But my point is: the media doesn’t care about the concerns of black people.
@ considerthis 326
It would be hypocrisy if one were to ignore the issue of social justice (which many want to do very very much). But since the situations are in fact different it is not hypocrisy.
Where did I say “…any method is justified because of the severity of the problem…”? That’s right I didn’t! That’s your emotional feeling about what I actually said above where I outline why this method is justified.
The rest is not really working because of the lack of hypocrisy and the fact that I provided specific reasons instead of saying that anything goes.
@ Thomathy, Such A ‘Mo
Apparently I’m still working on my camaraderie. Apologies for any offense.
Pteryxx:
Well, bless his heart all over. I wonder how many people are going to see this underwhelming statement.
@Inaji-
“But his sacrifice has been a great boon to the the news cycle and the electoral machinery — thank God that we have a tragedy involving a wealthy white man to drag us away from the depressing news about brown people.”
“Boy, I hate to say it, but it sure was nice of Robin Williams to create such a spectacular distraction. ”
Both statements imply intent. At the very least PZ Myer’s piece of writing shows poor judgment.
Max G Force:
Oh quit. You know damn well what Brony meant. You were trying to read my mind and see what motivated me when you don’t know. I will say, as I said before, YES, I HAVE A MOTHERFUCKING AGENDA. Wake up and recognize the racism in the system. Recognize that the concerns of black people are being shoved to the side, so that white peoples’ concerns can dominate the media because that’s what’s happening.
Having an agenda is not a bad thing, btw. I also have an agenda that seeks full equality for women. And full equality for LGBT people. And a host of other oppressed groups. Does my having an agenda somehow make these causes unworthy?
Actually, that is not the job of the MSM. They should cover what is truly important, and in order of said importance to society, and show reality, warts and all. If only popular items are aired, nothing but rainbows and unicorn farts would be shown.
Thomathy, Such A ‘Mo @ 274
The post is pretty transparently about how the media lacks the perspective to continue to cover a significant story (Mike Brown and everything subsequent) or a substantive coverage of a comedian’s death (suicide, mental health) in favour of slide shows about the latter.
It is also about what a good distraction this will be for politicians who can continue to ignore the Mike Brown story and instead give statements about dead celebrities. Convenient, because as the discussion makes clear, murdered black people and police brutality and the apparent police state are politically untenable conversations to have.
Yes that is a more verbose versions of what I said except it contain no unsupportable judgments – “The post is about the death being used to distract from other issues.”
Post uses the death intentionally to to make its own point.See, that’s not true. The post points out that a celebrity death, however tragic, doesn’t warrant the kind of coverage it’s getting when there is this other significant thing happening.
Did you see the title of the post? “Robin Williams brings joy to the hearts of journalists and politicians once again”. How about the line “it sure was nice of Robin Williams to create such a spectacular distraction” which implies Robin Williams intended this to happen? This is by far worse than any media outlets story. I rest my case.
PZ is no better than the media by exploiting the event.
That doesn’t make sense. The media isn’t exploiting anything. It just (yeah, ‘just’, hah.) is severely lacking in balanced coverage.
So your argument is that he is far worse by using this event to make a point than the unbalance coverage? Perhaps you should be more clear on your point.
its a pretty simple idea if you think about it. Try it. It’s not a “torturous” as you may believe.
It’s simple, yes, and it’s not true. I think ‘torturous’ is probably a good word to describe the process by which you arrived at your conclusions.
What is not true? You seem to argue that I am correct.
@ observer15 347
That was sarcasm. I happen to have problems recognizing sarcasm personally so I’m sympathetic, but it would be out of character for PZ to really believe something like that (but many want to believe it, not I don’t mean you personally).
observer15:
Can you accurately explain what PZs point was and why you find it contemptible?
observer15:
No, they don’t. Like many, you seem to have a hard time parsing frustration, anger, and sarcasm.
I don’t agree. Perhaps PZ should have gone the extra mile to wrap his anger and frustration in bubble wrap, but personally, I think that would have been a wrong move. People in the U.S. have become both complacent and apathetic about the rampant racism in this country. They simply don’t care, and that comes out in many of the comments. “Just another wrongful killing of a black kid.” If statements like that don’t outrage you, if they don’t leave you angry and frustrated, then something is very wrong. And something is very wrong in this country. Even when people are shocked out of their complacency, they don’t care about racism, and they won’t talk about it.
observer15 #347
Does the word “sarcasm” mean nothing to you? “Hyperbole”? If I call you a fuckwit, does that mean that I really believe your wits to be engaged in sexual intercourse, or that I’m trying to imply that they are?
Tony 270: “And now your true colors shine through. A young black man was murdered and PZ feels that the media is focusing too much on the death of Robin Williams, and not enough on another in a long line of examples of police brutality against the African American community and you seem to think this isn’t worth being outraged by.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOU.”
I am outraged by the long line of examples of police brutality against the African American community (I live in Chicago). I am also sad about Robin Williams and am moved by the many tributes. Why must I chose one over the other? I am also personally affected by mental illness of loved ones, specifically depression. Is there no value in communicating that via coverage of a high profile victim of depression such as Wiliams? Why don’t you care about mental illness?
“Considerthis” just got banned chez Greta, a couple of days ago. On one of her #mencallmethings posts regarding her criticism of The Amazing Asshole, TJ Kinkaid.
You racking up points, Considerthis? *waves*
Pteryxx @339:
Finally.
Thanks for that and all the links you’ve posted.
Remember folks, when the media back-burners an important story with public policy implications in order to provide more coverage of story involving a celebrity, they’re “just giving the people what they want.” Can’t pass any judgments about their morality or professionalism or priorities, they’re just “doing it for the ratings,” and that’s above criticism.
When a blogger chooses to write something that some people find controversial, it’s “drama blogging” and “rage blogging,” and they should be ashamed of themselves for “doing it for the clicks.”
Nicholas:
You don’t have to choose. This isn’t about your choice, it’s about the media deciding that Robin Williams is bigger, better story, more deserving of coverage than the racially motivated murder of a young black man by a police officer.
Who has said they don’t care about mental illness? I don’t think you did read the comments, Nicholas, or you would have noticed all of us who have criticized the media for not opening or directing discussions about the state of mental health care in the U.S., or about the stigmas attached to mental health issues.
Screechymonkey @ 358:
:Snort: Trufax, trufax.
Seven of Mine, formerly piegasm @ 285
Robin William’s death and the death of Michael brown are unrelated no matter how angry you are about it. They even occurred three days apart. They are only related to each other as news stories in the same way they are related all other news stories. Somehow you forgot that I agree with you on the basic problem but you wanted to strike out at me because I didn’t like the way PZ Myers handled it. My position is that it is handled wrong. Please find something supportable if you want to call me a “shit”. Better yet, go calm down and reconsider who your friends really are.
considerthis @ #350. FUCK!
I can read and I can read for comprehension. The title of the post relates directly to the point about the lack of balance and perspective in the media and the convenience of a ‘fluff’ story for politicians who can’t touch the hot potato of racism. It is pure sarcasm.
The fuck? You rest what case? That line is sarcasm! You’re basing your whole analysis off of a sarcastic one-liner?
What the fuck are you reading and responding to? It can’t possibly be my post, because I never said anything like that. Such an inference can’t even reasonably be drawn from what I’ve written.
No one is exploiting anything. That’s my point. You, and I quote, wrote, ‘PZ is no better than the media by exploiting the event.’ PZ is not worse than the media because not even the media is exploiting this.
I do not think you’re correct. I think you’re wrong. Is that simple enough for you?
Let me try this way:
It is not true that PZ is exploiting Williams’s death. What he is doing is taking contemporaneous deaths, one of which has trumped the other in the news cycle to illuminate a point about systemic, institutionalised racism and the lack of perspective and balance exhibited by the media. To the extent that it matters that the event that trumped Mike Brown’s death is the death of a rich white comedian, it is relevant because of racism.
They are related by both time and death. You are one fool if you think they aren’t. And the discussion is about MSM and how they prioritize their coverage.
Nicholas #335
You are not being asked to. The media, whose job it is to direct public attention to matters of import, are being accused of paying too much attention to the former and not enough to the latter. Sure, they should report both, but their assignment of relative importance is heavily skewed the wrong way.
I would have no problem with an outlet which made discussion of depression the main focus of their story. It’s not. (Cue someone citing one or two isolated examples which buck the trend.) The focus is, as ever, on the celebrity.
SallyStrange
Oh, then I won’t entertain the fucker anymore. Thank you!
_____
(OT) Tony, thanks for stepping in in that other thread. I just got caught up, but I don’t think I can post there.
Jeff S @340:
A single story? I guess I see what you mean. But why does that mean they cannot show greater focus on this murder than they’re doing?
This isn’t just another newsworthy story. This is another in a long line of examples of police brutality directed at black people. But because it’s black people, the media isn’t giving it the attention it is due. That’s part of white privilege.
And we’re criticizing the media because they can do much better. Instead of devoting so much time to the tragic suicide of Robin Williams, they could devote a good portion of coverage to the death of Mike Brown and what that means in a country suffused with racism. The murder of Brown is bigger and runs deeper than his murder. It represents a lot of what is wrong with this country. So does the media’s lack of attention to his murder.
I think that would only happen with a handful of black celebrities, but you’re right (Whoopi Goldberg, Denzel Washington, Samuel L Jackson, and Oprah Winfrey for instance). However, the media’s focus to the exclusion of other stories is the problem here.
Yes, bring us the news about Robin Williams. It is newsworthy- to a degree. Even more newsworthy, I think would be to talk about the effects of suicide and depression. Or talk about how we need to end the stigma of mental illness. But the media isn’t talking about that.
While they talk about that, they should also give significant coverage to the latest example of police brutality in the US; especially one aimed-yet again-at a black person. This is where race comes into play. The media is largely ignoring a story where race plays a big role, and in the process they’re dismissing the concerns of African Americans.
Rq @ 286
You are right. There are no excuses for it. It’s not a conspiracy; it’s just people as bad as that seems. All solutions will come from that understanding of the facts and not a search for a conspiracy.
I don’t expect you to agree with it, but I hope you understand my point that if you are going to speak against the media reacting to the masses, at least you should rise above their methods it in your post rather than sink to their level. It’s a very ineffective approach.
Tony 352: “Can you accurately explain what PZs point was and why you find it contemptible?”
He dumps on the perfectly natural and widespread outflowing of sadness and mourning in the media coverage of William’s death because, you know, POLICE BRUTALITY!
There are many many horrible stories in the news right now. The events outside of St. Louis is certainly awful, but so is ISIS, Ukraine, Chicago, and Africa. PZ sees no use in the Wiliams coverage except to distract from what he happens to be more outraged about. Fair enough, I suppose. It is his blog. I still think it stinks.
Nicholas:
If you think that, then you really haven’t been following this thread. I’ve expressed my compassion for both Williams’ family and people who deal with mental illnesses more than once.
considerthis:
The ‘baffle them with bullshit’ tactic doesn’t work here, in case that has slipped your notice. Speaking out against the media, and placing focus on the murder of a young man is fine. It’s better than fine. There’s no need to wrap words in waffles and bubble wrap to give the impression of ‘rising above’. This isn’t a case of sinking to the media’s level, either. It’s a case of calling out, and rightly so.
Also, wtf is with all the tone trolling?
“Well, I wouldn’t have been so outraged and decided it was the most contemptible thing I’ve ever read if you’d only been nicer!” said every tone troll ever. That they’re also wrapping themselves in feigned concern for social justice at the same time is just the merdaise sauce on the shit sandwich.
Nicholas @368:
You have *part* of it, but not all of it. You’re missing a component that make the death of Mike Brown an even greater tragedy.
I’m going to quote Inaji from upthread:
It’s not just that police officer has killed someone, which would be horrible enough.
It’s that a police officer has killed an unarmed black man.
It’s another example of how brutal police in the US are to black people.
It’s another example of institutionalized racism permeating the United States.
It’s another example of the media sweeping the concerns of black people under the rug, or treating them as if they don’t exist at all.
It’s more significant than police brutality. You’re not grasping the whole point here.
Nicholas:
Y’know, Nicholas, it doesn’t seem to matter how much people take you by the hand and explain every single thing to you, you’re determined to dismiss everything written (by PZ and the commentariat) in favour of PZ Bad!. If you have nothing more than that, please stop.
Thomathy, Such A ‘Mo @ 293
And the way the “PZ’s post very clearly is about the media and its coverage (or lack there of)” addressed this issue is with a post titled:
“Robin Williams brings joy to the hearts of journalists and politicians once again”
And words like:
“but it sure was nice of Robin Williams to create such a spectacular distraction”
It’s pretty clear that PZ exploited Robins Williams Dead worse than any media outlet to the point I am confident that people who needed to hear the message didn’t after the way he mocked the death . That was my point.
considerthis:
Why are you letting this sarcastic line color your whole perception of PZ’s post? By focusing on this-and I’ve said I wish PZ would excise it-you miss that larger point that the OP is about which many of us have explained over and over again.
@276:
Empathy is just a code for “you can’t criticise because, only racists would dare do that”. Like I said, you don’t get credit for your concern for black people just because you’re willing to excuse the rioting and looting going on because of past racism. And where is the proof that this shooting had anything to do with race anyway? It seems to me that the racism charge is thrown out there with nothing to back it up. Even if it was a case of a black man being shot for being black, it still doesn’t excuse rioting and looting.
Tony! The Queer Shoop @ 316
In PZs own words, the post is about:
“thank God that we have a tragedy involving a wealthy white man to drag us away from the depressing news about brown people. I mean, really: young 18 year old black man gunned down for walking in the street vs. 63 year old white comedian killing himself?”
“Boy, I hate to say it, but it sure was nice of Robin Williams to create such a spectacular distraction. No one wants to think the police might be untrustworthy.”
I know you want to highjack the subject for another agenda, but the subject of the post is media bias using Robin Williams death as a vehicle. Robin Williams death is unrelated to the Michael Brown killing. Now you can go back to your own agenda.
I agree that they should. Brown’s murder is a major cultural story and deserves to be covered.
How was the coverage of the story before Robin Williams death? Likely not as much as it should have been, and if I’ve interpreted what others have said about it correctly, it has been grossly unfair the protesters in the aftermath of the shooting.
Sure, with the advent of a new major news story, albeit one involving a celebrity suicide, all other news stories are bound to take a back seat. Is this the problem, or is the problem that it wasn’t ever going to get proper coverage, regardless of the Robin Williams suicide? I strongly feel that it is the latter.
Why not simply write a criticism of the lack of coverage of this issue in general?
That would have been perfectly warranted.
Why drag Robin Williams into this discussion at all?
It’s not as if the media was covering the isssue adequately and then, all of a sudden, Robin Williams died and the MSM went “PHEW! Now we can ignore that Missouri story!”, which is what PZ is alleging quite cynically.
Thomathy, Such A ‘Mo @ 330
I referenced the post to make my point. How about a little more than “no it doesn’t” from you. If you are going to resort to simple contradiction, give up now.
How is implying that Robin Williams wanted this to happen not exploiting his memory and his life?
considerthis #379
One question.
Do you actually believe that PZ meant that implication literally?
I do not in anyway defend CNN or any 24 hour news channel that vomits forth a single headline at the expense of other tragedies. Yet I would argue that our media in some ways is a reflection of our celebrity worship. I very much liken this to what hits home for a Indians such as myself.
Not a day goes by now when there is violence against women in India. The latest is the rape of a 6 year old child at an exclusive elementary school in Bangalore, India. Yes there was a massive demonstration and convictions have been made against the school officials. However, it is now but a footnote in the news.
Let’s not forget the tragedies of tsunamis, tramplings at religious ceremonies, the Gujarat riots, etc.. All of them end up as footnotes.
Yet, if an Indian movie star dies, that makes a lasting headline. The entire nation mourns for days or months on end. Even a tweet from a Prime Minister on this but not a word on a child being raped. Why is this a human phenomenon? Is it because movie stars have greater emotional proximity to everyone? Do we weigh the suffering of one human being or group over another? Or are people just shitheads?
I am reminded of experiments conducted at University of Iowa wherein patients suffering from persistent vegetative state are shown emotionally charged pictures of individuals. With the cerebral cortex totally wiped out, these folks can have reflex emotive responses which cannot translate into conscious feelings. By examining markers such has vasomotor tone, heart rate and pupil dilation, some pictures evoke a much stronger arousal than others. Is it possible that we unconsciously give greater emotional weight to one person over another whereas it is the impact of culture that informs us to equalize? Maybe CNN should be informing the masses rather than be shaped by the masses unconscious emotional biases?
Any one else noticed that Jerry Coyne is misguidedly (or if one is less generous, joyfully) accusing PZ of trivializing the tragic death of Robin Williams due to a serious mental illness in order to be the Social Justice Warrior (somehow meant as a bad thing) that he is (not his words, but this is the gist of what’s going on on his thread, which he seems to aprove of), but at the same time himself using the death of Robin Williams as an excuse to take a stab at PZ after the Dawkins thing? I think if i’m quiet i can hear all the people at WEIT who are orgasming about PZ having said something that they can completely missunderstand and missinterpret to use as ammo.
Thomathy, Such A ‘Mo @ 344
“the media doesn’t care about the concerns of black people.”
Why? Explain to me why and the cause? That’s what you attached me on. Let’s hear it from you.
Brony @ 345
“Where did I say “…any method is justified because of the severity of the problem…”? That’s right I didn’t!”
I said “you may feel that any method is justified because of the severity of the problem but I didn’t argue against that.”
I proposed you might feel that way. How about explaining how you feel about what is justified to do instead of compliant about what you don’t believe?
@378, Jeff S:
Because failing to mention the latest and best example of issue would make the “discussion” an exercise in pointless theory? Because an argument unsupported by examples is a bad argument? Because composing a post on the subject without making it clear what had prompted it would have made the post less interesting? I’m sure I can come up with some more if I try, but those seem more than sufficient to me.
—
A correction to my earlier comment: not that it matters to anyone else in the slightest, but my family has a history of depression, not suicide. Careless editing. There was a somewhat distant relative who (probably) committed suicide, but I don’t think that’s enough to constitute “a history” so the statement as originally phrased was incorrect.
@ considerthis
The whole point of using the sarcasm is to draw emotional attention, and to characterize the media and society as a whole.
People will want to compare it with Dawkins’s comparisons of different kinds of harm within a category but I won’t be accepting that without a good explanation because drawing attention to suffering, and the fact that this is not going to be harming any socially powerful white people are very relevant differences.
No one leaves their agenda at home. We all have them and what matters is which ones are more worthy. You have one as well and rhetorically negating your motivations just screws up the ability to take your persuasion seirously.
I sympathize with some of the complaints against this piece. Criticism of traditional media’s monomaniacal coverage of celebrity news vs. its non-existent or flawed coverage of national human rights issues (particularly those concerning minorities) is totally valid. And it’s totally valid to use the examples of Robin Williams’s suicide and the Ferguson police brutality and authoritarianism to point out that issue. Doing so using snark and sarcasm, particularly where that snark and sarcasm touches on the suicide itself, well… it’s a little too easy to cross the line into shittiness. Whether you want to reference John Scalzi’s the failure mode of Clever is Asshole, or point to the well-deserved anger at Dawkins’s “I picked this example because it’s provocative…why are you getting all emotional?” nonsense rationalization, sometimes tone policing is justified. I agree with those who think the sarcasm detracts from the point of the post.
Of course, that doesn’t seem to be the issue for Dawkins or Coyne or most of the commenters leaving negative feedback here. At best it’s a minor point that lets them pivot to their real concern: the threat to their privilege when PZ correctly frames part of the issue as the media giving overwhelming coverage to a “white” story and ignoring the “black” one. So we get nonsensical lies about what PZ wrote (white people are evil and we shouldn’t care when they die) and dog-whistles (calling the whole Ferguson community “looters” and “rioters” based on the alleged actions of a tiny number) and bald-faced racism (you’re just posting this to show you’re down with the brothas). It’s damning evidence of the institutional racism in society in general and our atheist/skeptic community in particular. So thanks, Dawkins and Coyne and followers, for reinforcing PZ’s ppint.
And of course, the cynic in me is amused at how the libertarian-aligned segment of the skeptic population is piling on against a post critical of the traditional media and its abetting of the encroaching police state.
@ considerthis 384
<blockquote cite=""I proposed you might feel that way. How about explaining how you feel about what is justified to do instead of compliant about what you don’t believe?
You asserted that I might feel a particular way despite the fact that I explained why I felt that this was justified. There is no mind-reading, only inferences based on objective reality and you failed to cite my reality that I typed 201. Note that I’m not complaining about you attempting to analyze my motivations, I do that sort of thing myself. I’m just observing your lack of accuracy.
Since I did in fact say how I feel about why this is justified (slightly shorter version in my response to you in 386) you can start with that.
When quoting someone:
<blockquote>Paste quoted text here</blockquote> Produces:
Doing this, and citing nym and comment-number makes it much easier to tell who is talking to who.
Ragdish:
People have always been captivated by stardom, the sense of glamour, and relating to celebrities is a form of escapism. People are very fond of escapism. In recent times though, the captivated by stardom has been replaced with an obsession with all things celebrity, along with a side obsession with 15 minutes of fame. A good amount of responsibility for that can be laid on the doorstep of media. The media creates darlings, then tears them down. Sometimes they are lifted up again, sometimes not. In this case, I think the media smelled an opportunity to pull out the stops on a combination hero/celebrity story. People identify with Mr. Williams because a lot of them “grew up with him” (watched him on TV or in movies), and so on. So, it takes on a sense of being personally involved. Mr. Williams was a humanist, and I don’t think he would have been very impressed by the abysmal coverage of the racially motivated murder of a young black man by a police officer.
Thomathy, Such A ‘Mo @ 362
This was in response to your post 274 and I repeated your statements in the post. You should keep track of your statements.
As you said, PZ Myers used William’s death in a “sarcastic one-liner” to make a point. He obviously didn’t have Robin Williams permission to do that so what do you call using your name and persona to make a point without your permission? It is by definition “exploitation” but that is not even close to my real point. The point was that his use of William’s death took away from the point in the ears of the people who needed to hear it. Are you arguing that it was a very effective post to influence other people? Particularly white people?
Inaji @ 289: The Black Panthers armed themselves in the ’60s, and people shit themselves over that and actually got some gun-control measures passed. Now that the NRA is pushing open carry, it might be time for a revival of the tactic. Remember, the Panthers armed themselves to *protect* their neighborhood because the police weren’t. Any comparison to the current situation is not accidental.
Tony @ 309: Yes, I do know for a fact that more people are interested in Robin Williams than Mike Brown. Everywhere I was yesterday, Williams was the topic, not Brown. But the Brown case is going to be around awhile. Williams’ story is good for a day or two now, then another day for the funeral. As for whether the news is just for white people, yes and no. Our newspaper does surveys of circulation and advertising, and I can tell you that we targeting a certain demographic, because that’s where the money is, and newspapers still survive on ad dollars. That said, we still covered the Brown case and will continue to do — it’s not going away. It just wasn’t the top story this morning. (Note: If Bill Cosby had done this, it would have gotten far greater notice, because Cosby has had a huge cultural impact.)
Inaji @ 346: How long before the right wingers knock Obama for chiming in on the Brown case? Who will be the first to mock him about how he missed the chance to say Brown could have been his son? (My money is on Erick Erickson.)
caesar:
And yet, no one has made excuses for rioting and looting. Nor is anyone trying to get credit for anything you putrid fucknugget.
And again, no one is excusing the rioting and looting, which you seem so desperate to talk about. Plus you keep trying to claim, without a shred of evidence that people (like myself) are making excuses for the rioting and looting.
You continue to refuse to see the systematic oppression of black people in the US. You probably think if it was a black police officer who shot an unarmed white person that the same situation would have unfolded. But then you’re a libertarian fuckwit who denies the extent to which racism permeates our society and informs decisions.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls @ 363
They are also related by being written in the same language. A three day period and death relates literally thousand of articles. You are grasping straws to make a point and I followed you off topic to clarify the diversion. Yes, please stay on topic.
Then you need to ask the right question, which is “is there still institutional racism in police departments! which means equal treatment no matter what the race?” Given the evidence, the Ferguson PD is racist, treating blacks worse than whites.
considerthis @377:
I’ve been talking about the subject matter of the thread: the fact that the media is discussing Robin Williams’ suicide and paying precious little attention to the death of a young black man.
Bless your heart. You are so out of your league.
considerthis
Three days of media silence (no word in any mainstream media (Twitter doesn’t count)). Then, Robin Williams dies, and it’s everywhere, even as the situation in Ferguson escalates.
Just think about that, for a while.
Greg:
Perhaps you should remember that a lot of Black Panthers ended up dead, and the cops who murdered them never faced prosecution.
Inaji @ 370
You missed the point. You can write a post any way you want but will it influence people? If you are perceived as just as bad as the problem, nobody will listen. That’s the point.
You tell me, what is the point of “calling out” something if nobody listens?
And you are engaged in egotistical mental masturbation to avoid acknowledging you can be and are in fact wrong. That is the topic.
Jeff S @378:
To contrast how the media deals with stories it deems important. The contrast is important in making PZ’s point.
The media will focus on stories featuring white men, but downplay or even ignore stories of young black men subjected to brutal, dehumanizing treatment.
I’m so glad considerthis has been around to educate me on how to write proper posts and comments. Never would have figured it out! Thank you!!!
Greg Hilliard:
No, you don’t. In your quite subjective experience, a sampling of people you interacted with were interested in and focused on Robin Williams. That doesn’t mean there aren’t a lot of people-especially a lot of black people-who weren’t more concerned about Mike Browns’ murder.
Unless you polled the entire country. In which case, I’d love to see that.
considerthis @379:
FFS, PZ was being sarcastic. You’re treating this line as if its the meat of the OP, and disregarding everything else PZ said to fit your narrative.
Tony! The Queer Shoop @ 375
“but it sure was nice of Robin Williams to create such a spectacular distraction”
“Why are you letting this sarcastic line color your whole perception of PZ’s post?”
Answer: Because it is coloring a whole lot of other people’s perception of the post. Because of it the post looses it effectiveness. My point was not that it was incorrect; My point has always been that it screws up the message. Go back a read the last line of comment 203 and get back on subject.
Jeff S:
One. More. Time. Because the media decided the story was Robin Williams. There wasn’t even an attempt at balanced coverage.
One. More. Time. If the situation in Ferguson was that of a black police officer threatening, then assaulting, then murdering an 18 year old white man, do you think the media would have spent more time covering that, as well as covering Williams?
I’m pretty damn sure that most everyone knows the answer to that question. No one wants to face it though, do they?
ragdish @381:
This is not a good thing. The media has its balance way out of whack. While I don’t give two shits about Kim Kardashian or the birth of the royal baby, I accept that some people do. However, when stories of that nature take up a huge chunk of the media, to the detriment of stories that involve human suffering, or racism, or homophobia, or any of a host of other types of bigotry, it shows where the priorities of the media lie. They don’t like in bringing human rights violations to light. They aren’t showcasing the concerns of millions of viewers. By not giving these social ills their due, the media contributes to keeping the status quo in place.
Considerthis, you are more than a bit of an idiot. If no one was listening or paying attention to this post, the comment thread would be close to empty, not at 407 comments in a short amount of time. You won’t shut up, so it’s obvious you listened (and didn’t understand one thing, I might add.)
Robin Williams will be remembered and loved long after the world has forgotten about you and your childish rants.
Fuck you, PZ Myers, for saying these things. Where’s your dignity?
considerthis:
I am on subject. In fact, we have monitors in place to make sure that threads stay on subject. PZ himself will pop back into threads to ensure people stay on subject. So don’t worry about me. Worry about your own damn self and your inability to parse what PZ was talking about ya dang fool.
considerthis:
Also, take that suggestion of mine about a dictionary seriously. You’re fucking irritating enough without the constant inability to spell anything correctly, and your lack of concern about what words actually mean.
Inaji @ 398: Like Fred Hampton? Yes, but also remember that some of the Black Panthers killed other Panthers. I’m not saying blacks should open carry to get shot; they should do it juts like Open Carry of Texas — advertise it ahead of time, then go ahead and do their protest.
Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall @380
Exploitation doesn’t require intent. By definition he is exploiting RWs memory for his purposes but that is not the point. The point is that doing so is an ineffective method to transmit the message. He did a very important subject a disservice in terms of convincing other people. (post 203)
Outside of this forum, many people are just talking about is what PZ said about Robin Williams, not the more important point of media bias. Now try to argue about that!
Stefan:
Yes, fuck PZ for criticizing the media for paying insufficient attention to institutionalized racism and oppression, choosing instead to focus overmuch on the tragic death of a celebrity.
Read the post for comprehension and then read the damn thread. We’re over 400 comments and the OP has been analyzed and dissected enough so that even the most dense of the Coyne or Dawkins supporters *should* be able to understand PZs point by now.
@considerthis
Not all perceptions are equally valid. You are clearly offended and outraged but when I look at the different objects of outrage and offense in here they do not all seem as valid or important. I have no problems in thinking that whatever is fueling your outrage and offense is really not as important as the ones PZ is targeting. Rather I think it’s fascinating how the only things that are literally not meant to be reflections of reality, the sarcasm, are what you have been hooked by.
Good little fish.
considerthis #405
A whole lot of people are quite obviously taking the literal meaning and implying that they can’t spot obvious sarcasm. Scuse my cynicism, but it smells a tad of mala fides to me.
dreadpirateroberts:
It’s so nice to know that anger over racism and murder is nothing more than a childish rant. The more comments there are like this, it’s easier to see why the media does little anymore except report on celebrities.
considerthis #414
You seem to have forgotten to answer my question.
Do you actually believe that PZ meant that implication literally?
Stefan Bruvik:
:Gasp: You just told someone to fuck off, Stefan Bruvik. Where’s your dignity?
@ Stefan Bruvik
Bolding mine.
Please unpack the bolded portions because your feelings about what PZ is saying are all I can see. Otherwise I’m fine preferring the feelings of people that the media and society are currently ignoring.
People are aware this isn’t the catholic church, right? You don’t need to attack people for being insufficiently devoted to PZ – if that’s the best argument you can make, perhaps you shouldn’t be commenting. There are a depressing number of comments questioning people’s status as regulars, and a lot more who are a bit too eager to pour vitrol on anyone who dares to offer a contrary opinion.
Whither PZ meant it or not, parts of his post do come across, to many, as making light of depression. I know people who have dealt with depression who were put off by it. You can scream at them for “not getting it” or “being too sensitive” or “not being logical enough”, but perhaps you should take a moment to wonder if you should be taking the position of telling those people what they’re allowed to be offended by. We wouldn’t consider that acceptable behavior in any other situation. Just because its PZ this time doesn’t make it okay.
Brony @386
In this case, using “sarcasm is to draw emotional attention” drew negative attention. That’s the point.
Outside of this forum, many people are just talking about is what PZ said about Robin Williams, not the more important point of media bias. This is the point of the original comment 203
This post is getting its fair share of incoherent trolls I see.
This article. Jeezus… this fucking article.
PZ, listen, from all of us who have taken our eyes off the police brutality and black oppression story FOR LESS THAN 24 FUCKING HOURS, our sincerest and genuine apologies. But just so you know, we’re hurting. A lot. So if we want to pause for a day or two while we process the fact that somebody who could bring such joy to the world could take their own life… you might want to give us that time.
And hey, maybe you’re not a Robin Williams guy. Fine. So who’s your favorite comedian or entertainer? Imagine that guy/gal killed himself/herself yesterday. Now you’re in the same emotional boat we are. Or maybe you wouldn’t care. Either way, it’s awful for us.
You know what else is awful? Certainly not as awful as somebody’s suicide, but awful in a manipulative or possibly clueless sort of way? Using somebody’s death to push a topic you feel is more important. Yep, it’s awful. Like REALLY awful. It’s definitely bad timing. At least today. And possibly tomorrow.
And hey, you can write whatever you want and whenever you want to write it. But usually timing matters. Because it can make you look thoughtful and respectful instead of a massive, attention-grabbing prick.
Next time wait a fucking day. Or two. Probably two.
Considerthis:
Okay. There are a lot of people who don’t much care for PZ, and will take advantage of anything to stir shit up. Then there are the idiots like yourself, who even though they understand what PZ was getting at, won’t shut up about how bad PZ is for writing this post in a way you don’t approve of. Then you have the assholes who didn’t even notice the media bias saying no one is talking about media bias, even though there are plenty of people in this thread constantly talking about media bias.
By the way, people weren’t talking about media bias. They didn’t even notice it. Instead, you had people talking about how Mr. Williams could possibly die by suicide with all that money. That’s kind of the point.
dreadpirateroberts:
You do realize that PZ didn’t say anything about people forgetting the impact Robin Williams had, no?
I hope you’re better able to understand the point of the OP than the rest of your brethren.
Also, it’s wonderful that you refer to criticizing the media’s lack of attention to concerns of African Americans as a “childish rant”. You clearly don’t seem to think the concerns of black people warrant media attention, bc contrary to what some people in this thread are saying, that’s one of the major points of PZs post.
Wow. I just read through this thread (skimmed through some of it; sorry if I missed something). Robin Williams’ death is obviously something that has shocked and saddened so many people. People who grew up watching him and laughing at his jokes. People who suffer from suicidal thoughts or depression. People who have lost loved ones to suicide. But I don’t see how one could argue that the media is bringing any important issues to light through this tragedy. The vast majority of articles I’ve seen (granted, I am making this judgement based mostly on headlines, since I don’t want to read through hundreds of articles that all say the same thing) are basically eulogies. They celebrate his life and list his achievements. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Peoples’ lives should be celebrated and remembered….. but we don’t need 3 or 4 eulogies from every media outlet. It’s excessive. The information is not changing. His story is over. One article from each news source (so they can all capitalize on clicks for Williams’ death. Gotta make that advertising money) is more than enough.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
But then there is this (from Tony! ) #333:
This. This is a problem that needs to be fixed. How is it that the over hyped ‘knockout game’ was able to stay in the news for months while police brutality gets buried? Why should the main page of any news outlet have 3 versions of the same story about Williams and nothing (or very little) about an ongoing concern that needs to be watched? I don’t care if it’s because the media is purposefully engineering stories to play up white people’s fear of black people while burying the truth (that black people have much, much more reason to fear white cops and vigilantes), or if the racism in our society is forcing the media to bend to this status quo in order to be successful. The point is that the media needs to pay attention to the concerns of black people, and we have to force them to do this. Because the current state of things is unacceptable.
Justin Gardner:
Of course. The racially motivated murder of a young black man by a police officer isn’t very important.
I was at a dungeon busy being groped and fondled and dominated by my sexy girlfriend, seems I missed a lot of fun.
Did anyone tell ceasar to fuck off yet?
’cause I will.
fuck off ceasar.
why don’t you declare the “rioters” right to open carry?
Brony @ 388
If I understand you correctly, you feel that the sarcastic use of Robin Williams death is justified. Now return to the point.
Do you feel that it is effective in convincing other people who read the post? Might they just fixate on the Robin Williams parts?
Justin Gardner #425
Y’know, if you weren’t off target, I’d agree with you. I hate it when people (usually the religious) use people’s deaths to make a point. (They’re in hell! gloat gloat!) I have, myself, made a point never to say something about the recently departed if I have nothing nice to say. it’s not fair to those in mourning.
But. This. Post. Isn’t. About. Robin. William’s. Death.
It’s about the media’s assignment of importance to Robin Williams’ death, when compared to the importance it assigns to other matters.
The real defense would be that you can and do care about both simultaneously.
This? Is pretty much just admitting that you don’t actually give a damn about the topics PZ is discussing.
You appear to be either a naif who foolishly assumes that there is some magic formula that will make unreasonable people be reasonable if only we manage to hit the exact right notes, thread exactly the right needle of tone and phrasing, or a concern-trolling disingenuous little shit.
Which is it?
Justin Gardner:
Yes, bc the death of Mike Brown has been all over the media in the way that the death of Robin Williams has been.
But. This. Post. Isn’t. About. Robin. William’s. Death.
It’s about the media’s assignment of importance to Robin Williams’ death, when compared to the importance it assigns to other matters.
But. This. Post. Isn’t. About. Robin. William’s. Death.
It’s about the media’s assignment of importance to Robin Williams’ death, when compared to the importance it assigns to other matters.
But. This. Post. Isn’t. About. Robin. William’s. Death.
It’s about the media’s assignment of importance to Robin Williams’ death, when compared to the importance it assigns to other matters.
Beg your pardon, Daz, but so many people are missing this simple point, I wanted to drive it home a bit.
Inaji @ 406:
To be honest, no, I don’t think the media coverage would be that different if the races were reversed. If the socioeconomics remained the same (i.e., the white person murdered came from a poor/middle-class background), the media still wouldn’t spend significant time on a police brutality story as they’ve long been in bed with the powers-that-be pushing police militarization. If the white person murdered was rich enough, the media wouldn’t spend significant time on the story because there wouldn’t be significant time over which to run the story: the police officer would have been fired, charged with murder, and convicted fairly quickly.
@ considerthis
I know that it drew negative attention. I like the attention that it gets from people also concerned with social justice better. I’m also familiar with Dawkins claiming similar reasons for picking his subject matter. But I still consider drawing attention towards suffering (instead of to a pathetic logical point), and the way that the Williams family is in no reasonable way comparable to rape victims good reasons for why sometimes a comment that can draw negative attention is a good thing.
And those people are wrong wrong wrong. Sarcasm is literally not true when taken literally so if those people want to engage in flaw-building exercises I will be happy to allow my sociopolitical opponents to wreck their perceptive abilities and concentrate incompetence among themselves.
Disagree? Fine. Offended and outraged? No problem. Characterizing what is as what you feel on a group level? I’ll stay on this side of the rift. Feelings about triggering trauma that people are trying to resolve are one thing, but group-mythologizing is a part of religion that is amazing that some atheists want to hang onto.
Azkyroth:
Lovely turn of phrase, that.
Who said:
The Amazing Atheist is not a normal human being.
Instead, The Amazing Atheist raged at the fact that this young woman was getting attention when other people have died, too. She was a well-off Western girl with plenty of privileges, so how dare we consider her story particularly tragic? There are so many other people who are worse off than she was!
Well, you know, we have a couple of choices in our lives.
We could, for instance, search the world for that one person who is in the worst circumstances of anyone; the person who is suffering the very most right now. We can do this while turning up our nose at each other afflicted individual who isn’t hurting enough for our standards; why, you’re a quadriplegic dying in a ditch? But you don’t have shingles! And both your eyes are intact! I’m sure we can find someone worse off than you. And then when we find that ultimate person in pain, we can promise to do everything we can to help them.
But I’ve noticed that people who make that kind of argument aren’t actually offering to help anyone. Their perversely inverted, demanding standards are really an excuse to turn away from the miserable they consider undeserving, to justify refusing to help…because that ultimate sufferer will never be found.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/10/13/the-amazing-atheist-reveals-his-lack-of-humanity-again/
gmcard:
On this, I agree. I think you’re wrong about there not being more press coverage, though.
Just saw a news show, BBC America World News, and they put the Robin Williams report as the last segment, but they did a nice review of his life. They got it right.
Brony @416:
It is fascinating. Makes me wonder what their DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUN agenda is…
@ considerthis
Since we have a community willing to chew on those with perspectives that only allow misplaced offense and outrage, and a host that is willing to risk his privilege to provide a voice for others, yes. It gets used in different ways but responding to authority and acting on it is a neutral human thing. I choose to help knowingly because I have considered the emotional balances (there is a logic to emotion regardless of what many want to think).
Because it’s not all about gentle persuasion. Dawkins is fine when he is lobbing rhetoric up the social ladder. He and others are largely blind to those below.
Nerull @422: “There are a depressing number of comments questioning people’s status as regulars”
The only ones I’ve seen are in response to comments proclaiming themselves to be regulars. (As in, “I’m a long time fan, PZ, but I am so outraged by this post that now I will NEVER READ YOUR BLOG AGAIN!!!11!!!!”) Since they’re the ones who brought it up, in the belief that it’s relevant to the credibility or importance of their opinions, it seems fair game to challenge the factual premise.
Shatterface #440
If PZ were saying absolutely no attention should be paid to Robin Williams’ death, you’d have a point there. Instead, what you have is more of a blunt.
considerthis @ 361
The goings on in Ferguson MO. are happening now. As we speak. As is coverage of Robin Williams death.
I’m not “striking out”. I’m disagreeing.
No shit. I disagree.
I have a better idea. I’ll call you an oblivious shit exactly as long as you behave like an oblivious shit. If you prefer, I can switch to calling you a willfully obtuse shit instead.
Don’t tell me to calm down. In the first place, I already am. In the second, I’ll use my own judgement about what is worth not being calm about.
Tony! The Queer Shoop @396
That is the subject of the post, and my comment 203 you responded to brought up the point that the method PZ used was poor in respect to convincing other people. Really don’t address me unless you want to challenge that.
Oh, and lets talk about stay on sudject. One example of one of your prior posts:
“ You continue to refuse to see the systematic oppression of black people in the US. You probably think if it was a black police officer who shot an unarmed white person that the same situation would have unfolded.”
And the ever lovable:
“YES, I HAVE A MOTHERFUCKING AGENDA. Wake up and recognize the racism in the system.”
I may be “out of my league” but at least I can remember what I said. As I said, you can now get back to your “agenda”
I had just the opposite experience: Far more people I talked to today were concerned about Brown than Williams. Does my anecdote beat yours?
considerthis
If you’re not intending to stop posting (please, please, consider that option), could you at least be considerate enough to use fucking blockquotes.
Rq @ 397
I don’t understand your point. It is terrible what has happened. In my comment 203 I explained that this bias is a big problem. My only issue is that PZ handled it poorly. Please explain?
Inaji @ 441: Fair enough; a definitive answer would require additional evidence that I hope we never have. Though if society continues to shrug off the increasing police militarization, that hope is likely in vain.
Boy, am I missing the hushfile addon today.
Also, I’d like to point out that maybe, just maybe, this trend towards disproportionate and unequal coverage of white-centered tragedy versus black-centered tragedy contributes to white people believing we have it worse.
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Zenlike (#280)
No, see, people like richcon are pointing out how the media are ‘doing their job’ for their essential role in a capitalist oligarchy. Too bad they seem to think that’s a fine excuse rather than a cause for outrage.
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Nerd of Redhead (#349)
It doesn’t always have to be positive. But the negative stuff cannot ever villify white people and show black people as victims, that’s for damn sure.
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@screechymonkey (#358)
Spot on. The hypocrisy is nauseating.
Nerull:
For Fucks Sake, if you don’t like vulgarity wander somewhere else. There are places all over the internet for people who gasp in horror at the power of the word SHITWEASEL or FUCKNUGGETT.
A lot of the people in this thread arguing in support of the OP have suffered from depression too, and yet don’t get the same reading as people like you. My problem is that people are getting bent out of shape over one sarcastic line, and not paying attention to the overall message being conveyed, which is not supported by a literal reading of said sarcasm.
Nerd of Redhead
That is exactly what I’d like to see. The thing is…. Robin Williams’ story isn’t going to change. We can reflect on his life, but it’s, sadly, over for him. The most that can come out is a medical examiner’s report (and at that point, aren’t we being a bit voyeuristic?
The story in MO is ongoing, and it needs coverage. People need to see what’s happening. People (white people, really) need to start understanding what life is like for blacks in this country, and then we all need to work together to change it. Until all people can approach the police and use them to provide safety and justice, we need to keep covering this.
caesar (#305)
None of those people could possibly have any other interest in anti-racism than feeling smug. Nosiree.
P.S. Don’t look too closely at Tony’s gravatar.
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considerthis (#361)
The aftermath of Brown’s murder (the backlash by police against protestors) is still going on. Oh, hey! Maybe you’d know that if it wasn’t being drowned out by coverage of Williams’ suicide!
gmcard:
Agreed and agreed. It’s despair making enough, seeing the lengths people will go to, in order to shut out any discourse on the level of racism in the U.S., and the turning of a blind eye to increasing police militarization.
Aside from being in poor taste, the entire “point” of the blog is utterly meaningless drivel. It’s reflective of a schoolmarm chastising a young child for not eating their peas because there are children starving in some benighted corner of the globe.
One could easily counter this sentiment with, “Why are we focusing on the death of one American man, Mike Brown, when there are people far less privileged, facing genocide, starvation, systematic rape, torture, oppression and worse, across the globe? This death is all a huge distraction from the REAL problems out there in the world, far worse than this one.”
rq 2 402
Sarcastic criticism. Very erudite. (now you made me sarcastic for no reason!). I am a bit disappointed that you resorted to such things. I thought yoru point were valuable and I am not critical of your comments. They may have been closer to the point than any other. I’m sorry my point was missed on you and more sorry you feel offended.
A. Noyd:
Yes, as Dianne pointed out in #288, and was ignored:
considerthis @448:
This is very much on topic, bc this is what the media is glossing over in favor of an overwhelming amount of coverage on the tragic death of Robin Williams. Do try to keep up.
I see considerthis has abandoned all pretense of being anything other than a tone/concern troll. Took them long enough.
considerthis:
Would you quit fucking masturbating to your comment @203? We get it, you love yourself and your words dearly. You think PZ made his point poorly. Many of us-the ones who aren’t caught up on one sarcastic sentence-disagree. If you’ve nothing else of importance to add, buzz off mcdouche.
So what if William’s death is being used to distract us from Brown’s? Brown’s death was just a distraction from what’s happening on our southern border, where thousands of brown people are suffering. And the refugee story is just a distraction from Iraq, where thousands of brown people are being outright murdered. The ISIS story is itself just a distraction from the violence in Nigeria, Ukraine, and Afghanistan. But those stories don’t really matter compared to the fact that the richest nation on Earth would rather buy new iPhones than bring clean drinking water to everyone on Earth. Not that water-borne diseases affecting a mere billion people really matter in a world where global warming threatens to bring about a new mass extinction even — with Homo sapiens leading the list.
So it was a nice effort, PZ, but you’re thinking too small. The BIG story is that the press and our politicians are happily using EVERY EVENT ON EARTH to distract us from their failure to deal with global warming.
chinpokomon:
So, one post comprises a blog now, does it? How the media decides to cover stories is not meaningless drivel. The racially motivated murder of a young black man by a police officer is not meaningless drivel. The reaction to that racially motivated murder is not meaningless drivel. People being upset by the media refusing to cover serious issues such as racism, murder, a police state, the rotten health system which fails people with mental health issues every day, and the stigmas attached to mental health issues, instead choosing to run eulogies and clips, is not meaningless drivel.
toska:
If I can add to this a bit…
I think there are a lot of black people that would appreciate it if a serious, ongoing discussion of racism were opened up in society. To actually feel like a significant portion of the population, especially the media and politicians, want to listen, and work towards change is something many black people would likely appreciate.
That is exactly what I’d like to see. The thing is…. Robin Williams’ story isn’t going to change. We can reflect on his life, but it’s, sadly, over for him. The most that can come out is a medical examiner’s report (and at that point, aren’t we being a bit voyeuristic?
It might be ‘all over’ for Williams but it isn’t all over for millions of others with depression.
Had PZ written a blog decrying the media’s lack of depth in covering depression – which would have been relevant – we could be having an interesting discussion on that, but no, race trumps mental health every time.
We could have even had an interesting discussion on how mental health issues intersect with race but fuck no, nutters are unpeople and fuck those of us who have had depression ourselves because our stories aren’t interesting enough.
Here’s what I think of Robin Williams: He seemed to be a genuinely good guy. I liked many of his movies, but not all of them; sometimes he seemed to willing to sink into bathos. I thought he was a funny comedian most of the time, but his schtick got a little wearing — please, no more funny voices. It was heartbreaking that he suffered from depression, which I would wish on no one, and it’s terrible that he killed himself. His death was newsworthy, and a lot of people were familiar with his work, liked him, and are rightly sad about it.
But this post was not about Robin Williams. It was about our media and our politicians. Some of you seem to think my disgust with those institutions represented a dislike of Robin Williams — not true. What annoys me to no end is that we have 24 hour news channels and always-on online media, and that we have a celebrity culture that uses any pretext to replace significant issues with movie star news, to the point that it completely overwhelms the medium. I was appalled that Obama was so quick to issue a statement about an entertainment figure’s death — it was pure pablum so I imagine it was easy — and has said nothing a black man’s murder.
And now I’m disgusted with you people who feel so bitterly that Robin Williams has not received all that he is due. Get some perspective. You want a few blog posts even here that praise William’s life? It’s not enough that CNN and FoxNews are babbling endlessly about Robin Williams? Well, you’re not going to get it here. We can have a few places that don’t fawn over the dead man.
Shorter Shatterface: Why are you people not talking about something you’re trying to talk about but can’t because people like me keep interrupting to complain that you’re not talking about it?!
There is currently a goddamned fucking police state happening in a city in the middle of this country. People have been shot with rubber bullets and tear gassed to keep them from exercising their right to peaceably assemble in public. The members of the media trying to find out what’s going on have been physically shut out of town by the city government. Sorry, but if you don’t think that’s more newsworthy than the unfortunate death of a guy who acted in movies and on tv, then I really don’t know how to explain it to you.
@Inaji. I was talking bout this particular blog entry, not the entirety of Free Thought Blogs. So the fact that you failed to understand that pretty much renders every point you made thereafter moot. Also, try not to be so sensationalist or to put words in other people’s mouths. It’s a poor debate tactic, and the way you used it is quite frankly, disgusting.
At no point did I say that the young man’s death was meaningless or that we shouldn’t cover any issues of importance. How you got that out of my post is beyond me. You failed at reading comprehension so much it’s utterly astounding. Try re-reading my post, because the message is pretty simplistic.
Making the point, “we can’t talk about this bad thing, because this other bad thing is worse, ” is meaningless drivel, because it’s turtles all the way down. What about genocide? Why aren’t we talking about that? What about the systematic oppression of women in the ME? What about water born illnesses that threaten billions? What about climate change that is threatening to wipe out billions? What about mass starvation that is also effecting billions? Those are all worse than one person being shot.
Do you see why the point of this blog post was ridiculous now?
If I can add to this a bit…
I think there are a lot of black people that would appreciate it if a serious, ongoing discussion of racism were opened up in society.
I know that there are a lot of people with depression who don’t like the death of someone with depression sneered at, or used as a stick to beat others with.
Shatterface:
I don’t see anyone stopping you, Shatterface. You could have talked about those issues with your first comment, and people would have responded. I know I would have. Instead, you won’t talk about such issues, because you aren’t actually interested in them, you’re only interested in scolding PZ and the commentariat. You haven’t even had enough interest in mental health issues to respond to the many of us who have brought them up in this thread, along with decrying the media’s refusal to do any serious reporting on mental health care or the stigmas surrounding mental health issues.
Look! Somebody posted something actually taking a mild shot at the man himself: http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2014/08/12/the_forgettable_liberal_politics_of_robin_williams.html
Sic! Sic! Go get him boys!
chinpokomon #471
Jebus H Christ. It has been pointed out multiple times in this thread that the OP refers to the relative importance of the story. No one is saying “we can’t talk about this bad thing, because this other bad thing is worse.” We are saying “show some sense of proportion.”
PZ, you’ve pulled a Dawkins.
Dawkins occasionally makes comments comparing various kinds of sexual abuse. This angers and upsets a lot of people. Yes, Dawkins had a point – but the emotional payload of the way in which he expressed himself was a justified emotional outrage. And despite seeing this play out several times, Dawkins then gets shocked and confused that people reacted to the issues he intended to raise. Why are they all so emotional?
The answer: Because sexual abuse is a deeply emotionally triggering issue. It makes people emotional… And Dawkins is revealing himself to be an emotional dumbass given how often he completely fails to take the emotions of his audience into consideration before he speaks to them.
Similarly here: Yes, you have a point: It is true that the death of a beloved celebrity from apparent suicide in a context where mental illness may have played a factor isn’t as big a news item as, for example, what ISIS has been up to recently. And yes, it is a fitting criticism of the media that they should be more proportionate in what they cover.
However: Many people did love Robin Williams. To me, Robin Williams is Genie from Aladin. His humor and delivery set the comedic tone of a movie that was a very influential part of my childhood. I can still quote entire monologues from Genie, he was the first character for which I spent time learning the words to a song or movie just because I loved the wording and delivery so much.
So when you say this:
On an intellectual level, I know that your snark here is directed at people who are not Robin Williams.
But on an emotional level? I’m saddened by the event of Williams’ death, and the above comment seems glib and uncaring and it feels like you are saying that Robin Williams is partially to blame.
Intellectually, I know this is wrong. But emotionally, that’s how it feels.
In this context, my emotional reaction, which I believe will be shared by a large number of people, is totally predictable and understandable… And had you expressed the idea differently, this could have been avoided.
Pretty much exactly like Dawkins. Although in your defense, you’re not a repeat offender the way that Dawkins is.
You’ve pulled a Dawkins. So respond to this situation in the way that you wish Dawkins had responded to his.
chinpokomon:
That’s not an effective counter.
•For one thing, the media *isn’t* focusing on Mike Brown’s death. That’s part of the problem.
•Two, as I mentioned upthread, this is about more than the tragic death of a young man. It’s about the continued preference shown by the media for the concerns of white people. It’s about how the media continues to sideline the concerns of black people. It’s about how the media has deemed police brutality towards minorities to be a minor issue. It’s about the continued disenfranchisement of a portion of the American population that has been dealing with systemic racism since the birth of this country.
•Three, PZ is not arguing for the media to only cover Mike Brown’s murder.
PZ is not comparing atrocities. He’s comparing how the media treats different stories and assigns a level of importance to them.
The tragic death of a celebrity is not the same as an example (in a long list) of systematic abuse of African Americans by law enforcement officers, which is itself a subset of the systemic racism African Americans face in the US. The former is a tragedy and it definitely impacts lives, and PZ doesn’t claim otherwise. The latter is an ongoing struggle on the part of black people to be treated equally and have their concerns given the attention they deserve.
This is not a post about “don’t pay attention to this problem over there”. It’s a post about “the media is focusing almost exclusively on this tragic death, and not paying sufficient attention to the ongoing human rights violations minorities in the US are continually dealing with”.
By God, there is too much stupid to combat all at once. Reminds me of when Hovind junior sends his “students” in too bleat out creationist nonsense for a half hour. It’s just too much fail, too quickly.
Carlie:
I’m with you, Carlie. I can’t even express how much my heart sank over the @FAANews bans flights under 3000 feet in Ferguson to “provide a safe environment for law enforcement activities.”, clearly telegraphing the direness of the situation.
Shorter Shatterface: Why are you people not talking about something you’re trying to talk about but can’t because people like me keep interrupting to complain that you’re not talking about it?
Shorter Seven of Mine:
People with depression shouldn’t bring their ‘agenda’ into a thread sneering at those who express sympathy at the death of someone with depression.
NOT WHEN YOU ARE A MAJOR MEDIA OUTLET. Major media outlets have a journalistic duty to report on things like LOSING CIVIL RIGHTS. You cannot say that there is an equivalency in political importance or in social importance between one person’s death and the mass shutdown of civil rights in a community. THIS IS NOT LIKE TWO PEOPLE TALKING ON THE INTERNET. Fuck, do you even understand how major media outlets drive social discourse?
Just a thought, but any decent news-organisation, with an actual interest in reporting news, should be howling at the exclusion of the press. Or did freedom of the press suddenly become less important than freedom to make dollars by click-bait?
Daniel:
No he hasn’t. FFS, what does it take to get it through one thick skull after another that this is about media priorities and media bias? Yes, it’s great to cover Mr. Williams’s life and his achievements, and to also mourn his death. It would have been better if the media bothered to open up serious discussion about mental health issues.
Instead, what we have is saturation in regard to Mr. Williams, and little attention paid to the murder of a young man by a police officer, and less attention to the aftermath.
Alex Jones is trying to call you.
I could care less about RW, but you sound like a conspiracy theory nut job. Where do you get your news from? I only saw a couple articles.
You are caucasian, btw. Trying to be everybody’s best friend makes you look silly and phoney. I’d like to see you in the inner city at night or in any muslim country, trying to explain how much you care (CAIR). Hint: you wouldn’t last very long.
Daniel Schealler, that is well put. I think I had a similar thought about this post when I first saw it earlier today, before the thread exploded. It just….lacks tact.
@ Daz — And I’m also talking about the relative importance of other stories and saying why should we arbitrarily stop there? Why not use this as an opportunity to talk about all of the most important stories going on in the world. Simply focusing on this one small issue seems to me to be a bit short sighted.
I mean, thank God that we have a tragedy involving an American man to drag us away from the depressing news about the starvation and genocide of oppressed peoples around the globe, right?
I mean, really: young 18 year old black man gunned down for walking in the street vs. entire populations of people wiped off the face of the earth due to genocide and starvation?
@Inaji
You say:
I said in my previous comment:
I acknowledged the very thing that you think didn’t make it through my ‘thick skull’ in the comment to which you replied.
Did you bother to read further than my opening sentence?
So, after reading more or less everything in here since I left, I get the idea that;
people hate reading
people hate PZ
people hate reading PZ
Chin pokomon:
That point was never made. Jesus fucking Christ, it’s insufferable. Perhaps you would get the point if you had bothered to read the comments, then you wouldn’t make such fucking stupid comments yourself. Here’s part of a comment by Toska @ 428:
Think you could buy yourself a fucking clue now?
@ 470 – >There is currently a goddamned fucking police state happening in a city in the middle of this country< Yeah, exactly. I loved Robin Williams generally. Really thought he was an exceptionally talented man, and had great range. but, uh …. I feel like what is happening in MO is pivotal. To me it's like watching scenes from the 60s with the cops and the fire hoses, and many of the other iconic situations from that era. The kid was murdered by the state in cold blood. Seriously. This is crazy stuff. The only thing I can see is that maybe the commenters from Coyne and Dawkins don't read PZ enough to see the sarcasm, don't grok the style or the tone, etc.etc. Or they just wanna hate on PZ. uh, yeah, knock yourselves out. You just sound silly and intellectually challenged to me, As does Coyne's take and Dawkins' tweet. And the "points" you are trying to make don't pass the smell test…. I mean, seriously, you are using blatantly sarcastic one-liners to cast PZ as some kind of hateful monster? Yeah, everyone who has hardly ever been here, and came because of a blurb written by Coyne or Dawkins … you've had your commenting opportunity. Feel better? Now fuck off back home. Dunno what's goin' on in the atheist community really, but, damn….
Tony!
Yes, the coverage issue does not only apply to Michael Brown and other young men who are murdered by racist police. We need the media to nail police depts down on stop and frisk, on arresting black people for drug crimes at 10x the rate of white people, on applying the death penalty much more liberally to black men than any other demographic. We need to go after the systemic racism in our justice system. At all levels. Of course, systemic racism goes much deeper than the justice system, but I’d say it’s a hell of a good place to start.
Shatterface #480
Sorry, but using the headline “Star commits suicide” as an excuse to talk about some films they were in and utter a few stock phrases of commiseration, probably pulled from a pre-prepared “celebrity death” file, is not expressing sympathy with depression. At most, in most popular news outlets, it’s unseemly and distasteful gawking at the effects of depression.
And people who are in charge of deciding what stories get covered and how get paid an awful lot of money to make those decisions without bringing their own personal feelings into it. Their entire job is to decide what’s the most important information to send out to the public. This is not about you. It is not about your feelings. It is about how the media treats single-celebrity personal stories as orders of magnitude more important than the erosion of democracy happening right in front of us. Hyperbole? Nope. Go look at these pictures and the things they are saying. This is what has happened in the last two days, and you notice where you’re seeing them? Fucking twitter. Go to CNN right now. The headline story is how Robin Williams killed himself. Under that is a blurb about the Ferguson situation, but again, without any of the tags that would make people take notice. How about “Ferguson declared no-fly zone”? How about “residents told not to leave their houses”? Nope. This is about the way these stories are being covered, not about how sad any individual is about either of them.
@anteprepro
Thanks. Good to know I didn’t express myself poorly. Inaji had me wondering for a moment.
Chris @ 484:
I guess that anecdote makes you the authority then.
I’m sure that white people everywhere will sigh in relief, knowing that the racially motivated murder of a young man by a police officer need be no concern of theirs.
Dawkins occasionally makes comments comparing various kinds of sexual abuse. This angers and upsets a lot of people. Yes, Dawkins had a point – but the emotional payload of the way in which he expressed himself was a justified emotional outrage. And despite seeing this play out several times, Dawkins then gets shocked and confused that people reacted to the issues he intended to raise. Why are they all so emotional?
This.
I mean , PZ is writing about someone who committed suicide because of mental illness – that’s at least two trigger points.
At some point he should have considered the feelings of those who are, by definition, highly emotional about this issue.
So? I have no problem with people admiring the man and grieving over his death. I’m not saying you should stop feeling sad — do as you find necessary.
What I am saying is that national news media that ought to be covering a wide swathe of the important issues of the day has a “Look, a squirrel!” mindset and will memory-hole major issues to cover anything to do with a celebrity. CNN still has “death of a legend” as its top story. FoxNews, it is embarrassing to say, is doing better and has the Iraq situation as it’s top story, but still features a slew of Williams stories.
I can grant that Williams is well enough known to warrant a front page announcement — one column. But get some perspective — not enough to warrant screaming front page headlines and the near total displacement of all other news for a day.
@468 PZ: that will be the case, but your article doesn’t exactly make that clear.
Daniel Schealler, I probably just disagree with Inaji in the degree to which I support this post. Pharyngula hivemind and all that.
How do you know it was racially motivated?