I’m dyin’ here, people. It’s like people trust me or something.
So I’ve been given this rather…explosive…information. It’s a direct report of unethical behavior by a big name in the skeptical community (yeah, like that hasn’t been happening a lot lately), and it’s straight from the victim’s mouth. And it’s bad. Really bad.
She’s torn up about it. It’s been a few years, so no law agency is going to do anything about it now; she reported it to an organization at the time, and it was dismissed. Swept under the rug. Ignored. I can imagine her sense of futility. She’s also afraid that the person who assaulted her before could try to hurt her again.
But at the same time, she doesn’t want this to happen to anyone else, so she’d like to get the word out there. So she hands the information to me. Oh, thanks.
Now I’ve been sitting here trying to resolve my dilemma — to reveal it or not — and goddamn it, what’s dominating my head isn’t the consequences, but the question of what is the right thing to do. Do I stand up for the one who has no recourse, no way out, no other option to help others, or do I shelter the powerful big name guy from an accusation I can’t personally vouch for, except to say that I know the author, and that she’s not trying to acquire notoriety (she wants her name kept out of it)?
I’ve got to do what I’ve got to do, I can do no other. I will again emphasize, though, that I have no personal, direct evidence that the event occurred as described; all I can say is that the author is known to me, and she has also been vouched for by one other person I trust. The author is not threatening her putative assailant with any action, but is solely concerned that other women be aware of his behavior. The only reason she has given me this information is that she has no other way to act.
With that, I cast this grenade away from me…
At a conference, Mr. Shermer coerced me into a position where I could not consent, and then had sex with me. I can’t give more details than that, as it would reveal my identity, and I am very scared that he will come after me in some way. But I wanted to share this story in case it helps anyone else ward off a similar situation from happening. I reached out to one organization that was involved in the event at which I was raped, and they refused to take my concerns seriously. Ever since, I’ve heard stories about him doing things (5 different people have directly told me they did the same to them) and wanted to just say something and warn people, and I didn’t know how. I hope this protects someone.
Boom.
Further corroboration: a witness has come forward. This person has asked to remain anonymous too, but I will say they’re someone who doesn’t particularly like me — so no accusations of fannishness, OK?
The anonymous woman who wrote to you is known to me, and in fact I was in her presence immediately after said incident (she was extremely distraught), and when she told the management of the conference (some time later).
Women are still writing into me with their personal stories. This one isn’t so awful, but it’s mainly illustrative of his tactics…there’s nothing here that would form the basis of any kind of serious complaint, but most importantly, I think, it tells you exactly what kind of behavior to watch out for with him.
Michael Shermer was the guest of honor at an atheist event I attended in Fall 2006; I was on the Board of the group who hosted it. It’s a very short story: I got my book signed, then at the post-speech party, Shermer chatted with me at great length while refilling my wine glass repeatedly. I lost count of how many drinks I had. He was flirting with me and I am non-confrontational and unwilling to be rude, so I just laughed it off. He made sure my wine glass stayed full.
And that’s the entirety of my story: Michael Shermer helped get me drunker than I normally get, and was a bit flirty. I can’t recall the details because I was intoxicated. I don’t remember how I left, but I am told that a friend took me away from the situation and home from the party. Note, I’d never gotten drunk at any atheist event before; I was humiliated by having gotten so drunk and even more ashamed that my friends had to cart me off before anything happened to me.
But I had a bad taste in my mouth about Shermer’s flirtatiousness, because I’m married, and I thought he was kind of a pig. I didn’t even keep his signed book, I didn’t want it near me.
Over the years as rumors have flown about atheist women warning each other about a lecherous author/speaker, I thought of all the authors and speakers I had met during my time as an atheist activist, and I guessed that Shermer was the one being warned against.
Now there are tweets and blogs about his sexually inappropriate behavior as well as his fondness for getting chicks drunk, so I feel quite less alone. I don’t think he realizes he is doing anything wrong. Men who behave inappropriately sexually never think they are doing anything wrong.
I have mixed feelings about your grenade-dropping. I have heard arguments both for and against what you did. Whether or not I agree with it, I just want to say that the accusations against Shermer match up with my personal experience with him, insofar as he seemed hellbent on helping me get drunk, and was very flirty with me. Take it for what you will. I believe the accusers.
Crudely Wrott, my thanks and love.
You got that right.
Honestly I didn’t even realize what it was that occurred until I read this thread. I always just considered it horrible bullying or a rather nasty prank.
jameswaller, another in a long line of people who can’t fucking blockquote to save their lives.
Because so many women here have been raped and/or know of several others who have been. Very few have experienced life threatening physical assault, though this discussion isn’t about DV so we haven’t triggered those particular people who’ve been assaulted-but-not-raped.
I only know/knew two murderers (of partners unsurprisingly). But reports of sexual assaults and harassment by particular people are not a daily or weekly event, but they’re unsurprising when they do turn up. They have more often got a “him again” or “I always wondered about him” response rather than “oh, no. Not him too.”
<blockquote> paste words here</blockquote>
easy peasy
jameswaller @2988:
Sttraaaaaaaawperson. Not a single person on here is 100% convinced (and if you find one, please point me at them so that I may take a strip off them). And why must everything be settled through the courts? Do you think we should settle science that way? How about public policy? No?
Then why should advice require a lawyer?
Zero evidence would look like this:
What you saw was evidence, albeit not enough to convict someone of a crime. As I asked above, though, does that mean the evidence has no value?
You are providing apologies that would make it easier for rapists to rape someone. That’s not an accusation, that’s a description.
The only difference is that there would be one less human being alive, if it were true. There would be tax forms that were not filled out, bills that were not paid, friends and co-workers that were puzzled. There would be a helluva lot more evidence available to back up Shermer’s claim, if it was true.
Is the evidence left behind after a rape anywhere near as obvious?
chigau@3005:
Yeah, you’d think so, right? But then these are people who can’t understand why a woman who is incapacitated isn’t to blame for being raped; instead the rapist was just Boys Being Boys. With that level of slackjawed mouthbreathing yokelism, it’s not at all surprising that something as simple as a pair of html tags is beyond them.
My first post here Caine, Fleur du mal was really hostile to me, I probably deserved it though I can’t remember.
notsont:
Sorry to hear about that.
It’s weird how people can wind up excusing their own assaults away (note I’m talking in generalities and trends here, I have no idea about notsont’s specific case). “I was drunk, therefore I consented,” “I enjoyed it, so it can’t have been rape.”
We are horribly bad at teaching what consent means. This needs to change.
Caine again:
I was raised by fundies, so I was in graduate school before I ever went to a bar or saw friends of mine get so drunk their behavior turned bizarre. I had no idea what I was seeing. Which, again, may be common for people from strict religious backgrounds that ban alcohol…
For what it’s worth, one of my own childhood gropers may have spiked my soda with alcohol. I thought it was horribly nasty-tasting and poured it into a sink when he wasn’t looking. So… I may have had a narrower escape than I realized.
(I’ve tried to track him down but he moved decades ago and I never knew his name. I hope his daughter got away.)
Excellent. Straight on to the tone trolling. It’s like the Seven Steps Of Rape Apology.
jameswaller:
Hmm, I don’t believe you, sorry.
I suspect that you in fact would have no difficulty in telling the substantial difference between these two incidents.
If you can, and are claiming you can’t, you’re dishonest and I can’t see any good reason to take you seriously.
If you actually are unable to tell the difference, you’re stupid and I can’t see any good reason to take you seriously.
Any questions?
It’s not a joke.
We. are. all. bystanders. looking at what PZ has presented for consideration. Most of “us”, The Horde, choose the bystander role of looking to find a way to support the apparent victim. First and foremost, first and last if it comes to that.
Others are looking to find a way to either step further away so they don’t have to consider whether anyone at all might be a victim. They’re also protecting themselves from considering any of their own previous inaction when faced with a choice to protect a potential/ apparent victim.
Yet others again are in the support the strong against the weak group. They don’t step away and they’re fairly open about not giving any consideration at all to any issues that make people in a weak position even weaker. The potential or apparent, bully/ harasser/ rapist gets overt if not enthusiastic encouragement from such people. Who really don’t care much about it, so long as they’re never seen to be weak directly or indirectly by speaking up for others who are weak or in distress. (Though these people tend to see “in distress” as = “weak” anyway.)
That’s enough. I’ve had it with you.
jameswaller
You really can’t read, can you?
The fact that you think a victim not going to the police matters tells me all I need to know about how ignorant you are (hint: the police often treat victims very poorly).
Ooohh, the “rape is sex they regret” trope.
You know what? You have sex with someone without properly obtaining consent, then it’s your fault if you get accused of rape. Making sure your partner consents really isn’t that fucking hard.
Tell me, why shouldn’t a women whose been drinking be allowed to claim she was raped?
Definitely can’t read.
Let me call the waaahmbulance.
Seriously, jackass? You dropped in on a nearly 3000 comment thread to talk about stupid bullshit that’s been covered by many of us more times we can count. Many of those times in this fucking thread. Why do you expect civility? Why do you deserve civility in this case?
Well, for one, a murder leaves a body and a missing person. Someone claiming to have witnessed a murder is unlikely to be dismissed by the police. There’s also the fact that murders aren’t nearly as common as rape is. We also don’t live in a society where people say, “But she just regretted it; she was drunk; it’s not really a murder.”
Thanks Caine. I’m just glad my meager contributions are noticed and helpful to some.
I really wonder how some people get through life. I present, for your entertainment, Denialism Dinner Theatre:
“Want to go to dinner at that new French place tonight?”
“No, I don’t think so. Sally went there last weekend, and got sick afterward. She asked some friends, and five others said they’ve had the same experience there.”
“Did Sally and her friends report him to the Health Department?”
“Sally’s friend Becky tried, but the person she spoke to kept asking a bunch of personal questions about her health and whether she maybe just got sick because she was pre-menstrual, or had gotten really drunk.”
“Well, Becky probably was drunk. I hear a lot of women get drunk and throw up and then blame it on food poisoning.”
“Becky never gets drunk. But whatever, don’t believe her, I don’t care. I believe her, and in any event, I’m not eating there, and I’ve told my friends the same.”
“WHAT? HOW DARE YOU! It’s all just HEARSAY and RUMOR-MONGERING! Serving tainted food is a criminal offense! And here you, Sally, and her friends are blackening the name of Chef Pierre, when no court has found him guilty! You’re just a vigilante culinary LYNCH MOB!”
Goddamn. This thread has made it past 3K comments?! Frankly, I’m behind. I least left off somewhere around 2400. I don’t know if I’ll manage to catch back up.
I see PZ has added another corroboration since the last time I checked in. I’ve heard of the “keeping the glass full” tactic before. The entire point of it is so that the person drinking cannot keep track of how much they’ve had. *sigh* This sort of thing is what makes me glad I didn’t drink socially in college.
Oh, and since it looks like jameswaller has gone off on the whole Jane Doe #3 anecdote and is lecturing us on how to consume alcohol while I was composing, deleting, and composing my initial post:
FUCK YOU. SERIOUSLY, FUCK YOU.
(tw for rape, and yes, jameswaller, I (no matter how grudgingly) use that term deliberately)
In my own case, the dude who raped me did keep me supplied with beers and Jack & Cokes; it was a dorm/frat party back in the day and the lines for drinks tended to be long – so if you were with your friends (or “friends,” I guess) of course you got ones for them every time, even if you outweighed them 2:1. So, I guess that’s the first thing I’m responsible for. That night wasn’t that unusual, compared to what had happened previously; the group of us had a good time and headed back to our dorm, and the party being the typical overcrowded event we were sweating like pigs and maybe some of us took showers before turning in? And maybe if we did (I honestly can’t remember) my attacker might have done his every-so-often thing of asking how I kept my “cheesedick” clean and I might have done my every-so-often response of grinning and bearing it and saying “I rinse it off for a few seconds.” I guess that’s the second thing I’m responsible for (maybe). What I do remember is waking up as I was shooting off in his mouth and immediately thinking how it was my fault for 1) getting drunk, 2) having put up with his “cheesedick” bullshit when it was so apparent (now) what he was doing, 3) being in my room the weekend that my roommate was out, 4) forgetting to lock my room’s door, 5) not waking up before I was shooting off into his mouth, and 6) not doing anything as he got up, said that he was just making sure my dick was clean, pulled up his shorts, and let himself out. So I guess those are things three through nine that I’m responsible for.
(in his defense (ha!) he did attempt to apologize by giving me a fifth of pretty good scotch. Whether it was a sincere but hamfisted apology, a not-subtle sign of his power given that he was only 18 at the time, or a seriously twisted comment on how alcohol contributed to that evening, I’ll never know.)
And no, I never went to the authorities, either the police or the football team. I guess that’s thing ten I’m responsible for.
Just got back from the conference to look at my email, and what do I find? Story after story from women telling me about their pain, from teachers fondling kids to middle-aged women being abused. Don’t you people know that manly men aren’t supposed to cry? I’m beginning to crack under the weight of disclosure.
Just to make me feel better, though, The Amazing Atheist and Thunderf00t are on a roll on twitter, being such grand and majestic assholes that I’m reassured that I did the right thing.
“So does the way you cherry-pick which responses to pay attention to.
I tried being patient with you, you ignored it.
We’re only being hostile to people who are persisting in being exactly the same kind of asshole as fifteen people before them. But you’d have to read and think to see that, and you’re manifestly unwilling to do that.
So.
You’re not looking for discussion; you’re looking to preen.
Fuck off and admire yourself elsewhere.”
Sorry… how does one try and pick what responses to reply to where the chat gets flooded… It’s not easy.
I would be happy for discussion. I am however on a 24 ferry boat between island traveling in Indonesia so Internet is extremely limited and broken. It was running fine when I started posting, but yeah maybe it was not the best time to start, as is not hard to post
Make your point again and I will try and get back to you.
Oh yes James, we are hostile to folks who spout harmful nonsense. Such a shock that is.
And fuck off with the 100% convinced that he’s guilty bullshit. I need that straw for my future sheep.
You’re conflating belief with knowledge. Most folk here are intelligent and intellectually honest enough to say that they believe Jane Doe because her story is more likely to be true than to be not, given the prevalence of sexual assault and rape in our society. None of us know it’s true because we are not privy to enough information to make that judgement.
Many of us also choose to believe it’s true because doing so results in the least harm being done regardless of the truth of her accusation. Not no harm, let’s be clear, but least harm. Shermer has enough wealth, power and prestige to weather a false accusation with minimal harm. And he’s only one person. If this accusation is true then an unknown multiple of women are at risk in the future. But hey, I guess keeping silent about these accusations works pretty well doesn’t it? After all, such an ancient and respected institution lke the Catholic church can’t be wrong in how to handle sexual misconduct can they?
It is perfectly rational to base a belief, tentative and conditional, on the principles of least harm and compassion until such time as more evidence is forthcoming. And I fucking dare you find one person on this thread, or any other at FtB who have claimed that their mind would not be changed by credible evidence that Jane Doe is lying.
You know its kinda sad during the 2 years I lived there I can remember at least 3 similar but probably worse events happening to girls who lived in this smallish town and one full on gang rape. All of the events were known to everyone including teachers, yet not a single one involved any police.
You’d know why if you would READ THE DAMN THREAD. The man who raped me was a serial rapist and murderer. I was knocked unconscious, severely beaten, repeatedly raped, repeatedly strangled and knifed.
Know what I’ve gotten to deal with for the 40 years since that happened? Fallout from being raped. I got it immediately, and all these years later, it still happens. I got flak from the cops, I got it from the ADA prosecuting the case. At the time, I was 16 years old. My first interview with the ADA, he looked at me and said “what in the hell were you thinking, being out after dark, wearing a dress?”
Yeah, it’s just a bed a roses, being raped and getting shit from all and sundry, who will all find a way to place the blame on you, ending up with PTSD, and getting to deal with people like you. It’s a fuckin’ picnic.
Oh, I am sorry, PZ. I know how tough that can be, you just feel like your heart will actually break. It’s a lot of pain to bear.
This isn’t a chat room. Once the page loads, it all stays perfectly still, and you can read and respond at your leisure. It’s actually all very easy.
Notsont:
I don’t remember that, however, that does not matter. I’m sorry.
Pete Newell, I like what you write and how you write it.
Caine, you are a marvel. Really, seriously, a marvel.
Jamewaller, you are an idiot. You keep repeating the same stuff over and over, and it’s hard to figure out what you are saying, as you write so poorly—were you trying to quote people up there? Your arguments have been done by others before in this thread, and have been ripped apart by people like Caine, repeatedly, thoroughly, and well. But you pop in here with the same stuff, all smug in your stupidity, and run the same tired shit through the same sputtering funnel, and you claim to be a victim in a rape thread. (*brain pops out and writhes around*)
Jameswaller, you aren’t just repeating yourself, and saying the same stuff as others in this thread have done, you are doing it the same way that has been done by trolls, Christians, creationists and hoaxers of all sorts. We’ve seen it so goddamned many times before. As I have said so many times before, “We’ve done you.” Jameswaller, we’ve done you, your friends, your friend’s arguments, and your argument’s friends. You aren’t accomplishing a damned thing here, really you aren’t.
Jameswaller, I know what you are going to say to that, because we’ve seen it a thousand times. We’ve done you.
I was just clean some piles of old books out today when I came across The Science of Good And Evil by Michael Shermer.
The irony made me want to vomit.
Pteryxx (#2971) wrote:
I wish that was the worst I’ve ever heard of, but I’ve heard stories of people shaving every hair off a person’s head, or taking suggestive photos to imply they’re gay, etc. The same men (or women, for that matter) who would treat a passed-out woman as their own personal plaything aren’t likely to treat passed-out men differently.
oh don;t be I can be a real jerk when I think I’m right, and I’m wrong enough to deserve smackdowns now and then.
@Pteryxx:
Oooh, do you have a link for that?
This isn’t a legal case. Pretending it is is a non-sequitur to keep from the main point PZ was making. Getting information out that a speaker/author was a sexual predator, and should be avoided.
More meaningless non-sequiturs.
Yes.
If you aren’t part of the solution, you are part of the problem. In this case, apolgizing and trying to explain away rape, and put the onus on the victim instead of the predator. Yes, the claim stands, until you stop apologizing for and victim shaming those who are raped.
Why is it the same? It isn’t. More non-sequiturs. You aren’t making sense, and can’t make sense.
Of course you don’t. You’re stupid, ignorant, and a rape apologist who blames the victim, not the predator. Understanding real fault is beyond your meager mental capabilities.
And, looking my message posted now, I see that I had completely left off what I had intended to be my point in response to jameswaller. In my defense, what he’s been saying is pretty fucking infuriating. Anyway, I can totally understand the seemingly outsized reaction of Jane Doe #3 to what is supposedly just someone topping off her drink. Continuously. And without her asking. Yes, it’s that, but it’s so much more.
Caine, thanks for your support and I just wanted to second whoever it was upthread brought up the flamethrower image w/r/t Sagan’s “candle in the dark.” You rocked while I was lurker and you’ve certainly rocked in this thread.
FossilFishy(Anti-Vulcanist):
“Many of us also choose to believe it’s true because doing so results in the least harm being done regardless of the truth of her accusation.”
Exactly! Thanks for putting your position so perfectly, I couldn’t agree more on what I disagree with you over :)
I wonder how it would affect your career, family, social circle if you were seriously accused of rape right now.
Who are you to judge minimal harm…
Seconded PZ. Don’t forget, you have a support network too, should you need it.
…and certain people are all ragey about the potential cost to Shermer.
Me @ 3032: while I was *a* lurker. Jesus.
Darkwater:
No, you do not bear fault here. You were raped, and that was a conscious decision on the part of the rapist. You were young, and I’m comfortable saying that most people have done a lot of silly things when they were young, but there is never, ever, any excuse for raping someone. Never.
I’m very sorry that happened to you, Darkwater.
James whatever your name really is
Remind me again why your time is worth more than mine?
Learn to read, think, listen, blockquote, search text and generally not be an arrogant entitled prick, and maybe we’ll have more to talk about.
But I doubt it on the evidence.
WHOOOOSH!!
I second Gertrud.
This conversation has been had. We know how it goes, and it doesn’t change. It’s good to have it, but does it really need this many thousands of comments? Someone who feels triggered out by it but just can’t look away could probably use a cap on it.
Maybe a breakdown, like
10% rape apologia from small number of trolls using sockpuppets
75% righteous fury, debunking, and support from good guys
15% people de-lurking to thank Jane Doe and PZ.
The end.
Quite well, actually. I don’t make a habit of having sex with drunk people. Then again, I actually care about someone else’s consent.
Now tell us all, finally, please: what harm has the accused suffered?
It’s really not hard to tell the difference between “100% convinced it’s true” and “weighing the evidence and context to decide it’s likely and pass on the warning”.
Course, certain people aren’t actually trying to tell the difference.
Who are we? Surely you’re not trying to tell us that you haven’t read all the reports – on this thread – from rape victims directly reporting their experience along with their PTSD or their hypervigilance ever since.
The avoided possible harm of other people not having to go through that is immense.
The harm to someone like Shermer if he hasn’t done anything wrong at all? Maybe a few missed speaking opportunities. Maybe the realisation that his fans now include some super creepy people he’d rather have nothing to do with. Maybe a few books unread or discarded or not bought – with maybe the same or a greater number read, treasured or bought because of some weird fellow-feeling or overt support for activities he doesn’t support himself. Maybe a few friends or family members telling him he should revise his behaviour so he doesn’t look like the sort of person who would do this.
Menyambal and Darkwater, thank you both. You are both also kicking serious ass, and you do my heart and brain good. Keep those fangs sniny and sharp!
PZ
If the idiots on twitter cheer you a bit, would banning someone here make you feel better?
I’ve got a little list…
You think discussion means you preaching, It is a discussion until the possibility for you to acknowledge you are wrong is present. So there can’t be any discussion, as you can’t be wrong. Typical MRA.
Simple; STOP BEING A RAPE APOLOGIST/VICTIM BLAMER.
ASKED AND ANSWERED, DOZENS OF TIMES ALREADY. YOU WOULD KNOW THAT IF YOU READ THE DAMN THREAD, FUCKWIT.
Me? I don’t have anything to worry about? Why? I don’t rape people. I don’t, and never have, had a long term, known pattern of skeevy behaviour with alcohol and people. Don’t want to be accused of rape? Easy peasy – don’t rape.
don’t do that
Hello, Horde
I’ve gotten through comment #2975, and now there’s about 60 more to go…by the time I finish this comment I’ll probably be another 100 behind again…
Jane Doe and Jane Does #2, thank you for speaking up. PZ, there’s a reason people trust you with live grenades like this–you’ve got a years-long track record of “getting it”, of being a true and tireless ally and advocate. Thank you.
Caine, fleur du mal: I hope you get weeks and bushels of ratty-boggling and anything else that would re-energize you after your amazing work in this thread alone. I don’t know how you do it, it seems you’re _always_ in the forefront when the rape apologetics start. Thank you. If I had any graphics chops, I’d combine the Wonder Woman, flame-thrower and immune system imagery into something really nerdly-geektastic. Like a neutrophil in a headband throwing fireballs or something…
Thank you also to all the “regular” and newly de-lurked commenters fighting the good fight for 3000+ comments today (and always). Reading and absorbing your work has made me a much better and much better-informed person. I should get myself a T-shirt that says “I took the Red Pill at Pharyngula”.
PS:
jameswaller already floated similar slime on page one. Guess xe needed to come back and drop the same turds again for some reason…
I know the conversation has moved on, or perhaps only sideways, but I wanted to add my thorough seconding of the idea of a conference panel on this topic. It is abundantly clear that many people need education on explaining/debunking of the stats, what the rational/thoughtful skeptical position looks like, what constitutes consent, the depth of rape culture, etc etc. I would want to attend, would certainly watch the podcast, and would proudly wear the tee-shirt. The time for this panel is now.
Also, my zogs, some of you are indefatigable in the face of constant trolls. Hats off, virtual pizza slices and beverage of choice to you.
SHOW US WITH SOLID EVIDENCE HOW SHERMER IS SUFFURING, OR SHUT THE FUCK UP.
PZ Myers @3018:
Oh geez, I’d forgotten about those two. It’s shocking just how many followers you can get by attacking straw feminism. To absolutely no-one’s suprise, Mr. “I DONT FUCKING DOC DROP” is currently trying to doc drop:
What a moral beacon for us all.
skemono @3030, right here:
http://www.bostonreview.net/anne-fausto-sterling-bodies-with-histories
See also:
Racial Categories in Medical Practice: How Useful Are They? (pubmed link)
h/t to commenter FeministWhore, who sent me an original link that’s now gone.
Caine,
A really sad story about your rape, sorry to hear about that :(
Do you not think you devalues your horrible experience of a brutal rape, by having it implied by PZ that Shermer topping up a wine glass and flirting is his tactic for the same thing.
(Attempted in Shermers Jain Doe 3 story) Rape.
Where do I say actually being raped is a bed of roses?
We all have the same information here. I just don’t take for granted that
“Mr. Shermer coerced me into a position where I could not consent, and then had sex with me.”
is actually rape, especially after the 3rd story about him refilling a wine glass as his tactic.
I just want more information before I will pass judgement
If the main story had been the experience that happen to you, then it is clear to me anyway that this is rape.
All of you here act as though the will be no fine line of what constitutes a rape.
There is… And it’s important
You know, one of the good things about these threads that explode is that we get to hear from some brilliant lurkers. I’m not even a super consistent commenter, but I swear I smile whenever a new person speaks out.
So new commenters and old, thank you.
Oh, lovely. I missed that charming little phrase. You know, Indians aren’t all dead. I’m half Oglala Lakota. Let’s see if you can figure out how I feel about “honest-injun”. Bigoted twit.
Well, goodness, gracious me.
That was #287, we’re now at 3000+. Amazing it never occurred to me that he’d been here before. Not so amazing really, they’re all starting to blur into each other.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls:
You want evidence that lives can be ruined by a false rape claim??
I sure you can find that yourself.
Google still works with the caps lock on so you should be ok :)
#3052: Yeah, we know about that one. Notice how he’s not saying WHO said that about a “brownlist”? It’s someone who is no longer with FtB and who is well liked by the slymers. It also doesn’t refer to any event affiliated with FtB. He’s really pulling that one WAY out of context — he went searching for juicy stuff he could tar the people he hates with, found something vaguely menacing, but it wasn’t from one of us…so he conveniently leaves off the name.
That guy is incredibly dishonest.
I can’t speak for Caine, but your condescension creeps me the fuck out.
Fuck it, I’m done explaining. YOU explain to ME why having sex with someone too drunk to consent isn’t rape. Please, I’d like to hear it.
jameswaller:
Waller:
No one here cares about your judgement. No one here cares about your opinion.
Your tone, your repeated errors, and your stubborn refusal to listen have ensured that.
You are an irritant. I am done with you.
Stop talking, please, as a courtesy to anyone here who is unable to tune you out.
Thank you.
Karen:
Yes. Yes, it is. Hi, Karen, thrilled to hear your voice.
jameswaller @3058:
You claim to know that lives can be ruined by false rape claims. This implies you have examples of lives being ruined by false rape claims.
So why, then, did you not share your examples of lives ruined by false rape claims? You have no shortage of means, motive and opportunity, and yet you are unable to deliver evidence to back your claims.
This strongly suggests you have no evidence. This strongly suggests there is little to no damage from false rape claims.
Thank you for proving our point.
Hi Caine, thank you.
And I’m STILL waiting to here about all those horrible consequences that are going to descend on Michael Schermer, those life-ruining ones.
Jacob@3060:
Yeah, he’s proceeded into active denial now. Only jameswaller gets to decide what Legitimate Rape is. He’s been victim-blaming all night, and now it’s not even victim blaming–to him it is no longer rape. Because lying bitches deserve what happens to their drunk asses, ‘snot rape, yaknow?
Man, my fuse is getting really fucking short tonight.
jameswaller is such a creepy patronizing fuck that I had to slap him a bit with the banhammer. No one minds, I hope.
Caine, thanks again. I was being a bit facetious by the time I got to ITEM NUMBER TEN, but I honestly appreciate your words of support; coming from you they mean a lot.
And, I just deleted a whole, rambling thing kind-of-sort-of but not really (well, maybe) rationalizing my decision not to pursue the issue. Power differentials, him versus me, his team versus my team, etc. It’s been said before, often, and repeatedly in this thread.
THEREs your problem, see its not a fine line, it is a big bright neon line. No consent = rape.
Incapacitated or severely impaired individuals can NOT give consent. The context of the situation can influence this but not by much.
Dogdamnit I accidentally hit the fucking backspace key while editing and lost my whole reply that I worked on for fucking ever.
@Pyterex:
Short form that will probably make a lot less sense: Some bartenders at some bars poured heavier drinks for women when I used to used to go out drinking with friends some years ago. Taste test amongst drinking parties when women noticed we couldn’t hardly taste our mixers and the guys could hardly taste their booze confirmed. Bartender who told me the extra half pour was to loosen me up thought I was a snob and he was an asshole, makes me wonder who else he thought needed loosening up and why. My first concern is that predators would notice the same pattern my friends and I did and factor that in when choosing locations to find victims. Second concern is some bartenders pouring heavier drinks for women without the women knowing. That is also a problem. My friend group knew and spread the word, but didn’t think much back then about the predator + alcohol aspect just that women may not want to get more drunk than they were expecting and then get sick.
In the time it took to post that, I see that two more people have come forward with accounts of their own assaults. To both Notsont and darkwaller,, I am so sorry. To PZ, hugs.
I now have to go figure out what cookies to dump or what add-ons to disable in order to appease Typos so that I can type in the comment box again. . before my head asplodes.
I might be able to take that seriously if you weren’t so busy denigrating and demeaning other rape victims. A decent human being doesn’t require details to extend empathy to someone in an untenable situation, and yet, you firmly refuse to so much as see why a woman who was raped by a rapist using an alcohol tactic is worth any empathy at all. You use *my* rape to excuse your inexcusable behaviour and attitude towards other rape victims and those who narrowly escaped being raped.
You aren’t a nice person. You aren’t a thinking person. I gave you more than one chance. I was nice, I was patient, I explained. It wasn’t enough. You had your chance, James, and you blew it. You are yet one more person who has made my life worse. You are yet one more person who has added to the fallout I get to deal with. You should be drowning in shame, but I know you won’t be. You’ll take this a sign, a marker that no, you, James Waller are right, you are always right, and you are a shining beacon, a protector of rapists everywhere.
The only thing I have left for you is a snarl of rage.
Popping into existence again to say: thank you to everyone who has shared their story, and thank you to Caine, for a brilliant display of empathy and reason. I feel better about the world knowing you all are here.
And as for you, Jameswaller, Christ, you’re terrible.
bullshit
jameswaller:
If the person whose body you are defiling has not given you permission, it is rape.
That’s not taken for granted, that is legality.
There is nothing to say after that, but:
Having a drink with someone is not consenting to sex. Especially if one of the people is married, and known to the other to be married, the assumption is that sex is not going to happen.
The assumption is always that sex is not going to happen, unless both parties explicitly consent. Having a drink is not consent, especially in a social situation—not a bar, but a convention.
If the other person has not said, in words, “Yes, you can.”, you can’t.
Jameswaller, you keep running your own twisted beliefs out here as if they are right, correct and what we really need. Just like a woman who needs your manliness, we all need your ideas—that’ll straighten us out, put us in our place.
Jameswaller, you are wasting your time, our time, and if I could trust you enough to believe you are actually on an Indonesian ferryboat, you are wasting an experience. Shut the damned computer off and enjoy the day.
Selamat jalan.
*darkwater*
I am so sorry that I got your nym mixed up with that… person.
Didn’t that feel good?
Thanks for banhammering him, PZ. I guess it’s a little self-centered of me, but I was kind of looking forward in a wholly-not-healthy way to jameswalller ignoring any number of the counterarguments that commenters made.
That’s as frustrating as hitting the mouse pad and the enter key at the same time, posting your horribly mangled html that you now can’t edit.
I don’t remember when, but some time ago I decided that alcohol and dating/sex just shouldn’t mix outside close, trusting relationships. Maybe one day I’ll here of some anecdote that goes against this, but I just keep getting that idea reaffirmed.
Fuck, sometimes I just hate our culture. I should be asleep, but I don’t think I can now.
PZ Myers @: 3066
I know you didn’t do ban that fuckwit for me, but thank you anyway. What he just did to Caine and everybody else in pain here was inexcusable.
Funny Diva:
Hee, thank you so much! Oh, the rats have been doing sterling service for me. They know when I’m stressed out, and the performance begins! It always starts with Amelia, who cuddles me (jumps into my arms, cleans and grooms me, then does extraordinarily long sessions of bruxing and boggling), then all the others run up my arms, give a quick brux on the shoulders, then the entertainment starts. They had me laughing so much last night. They are a wonder, and heroes all.
This was in a movie I saw once so it is probably something that is fairly common.
PZ:
I expect James Waller will mind, but I wouldn’t be able to even manufacture one crocodile tear on his behalf.
Onamission5, thanks again for explaining all that – it seemed clear enough to me.
that reminded me of another factoid(?) I got from somewhere… that “men’s drinks” tend to be straight up and/or plain, while “women’s drinks” are supposed to be full of mixers to cover the harsh taste for the poor darlings. I wonder how much that is engineered to make the girly-drinks easier to spike?
GirlNoir! How wonderful to see you again!
Darkwater, notsont
I’m sorry for what happened you you as well.
Caine and others who’ve been holding the walls
*hugs* if desired
PZ Myers @3059:
Whenever I hear of someone bashing feminism, I assume they’re incredibly dishonest or have been lied to.
So far, that rule has been batting 1000.
This is something I’ve experienced as well-even when I’ve explicitly requested only a single shot in my drink. Actually, due to it occurring several times, I don’t drink mixed drinks at bars anymore. I only drink beer or wine.
Pteryxx
That’s… actually rather creepy. I’ve seen guys (friends of mine, no less) encourage women to drink more flavoured coolers, since they weren’t as strong as beer, and of course the women needed to keep up. Except the coolers are stronger than beer, the flavour just masks it. That was years ago, and none of us were sexually active at the time (that I was aware of), but that scenario could easily be abused.
Okay… so those of you playing the home game: Let me lay this out even though its been said countless times before in this very same place. The reason we are mad, the reason we are outraged is because rape and sexual assaults are the only crimes where the onus of the crime is reflected back onto the victim. If your house is robbed, do the cops ever say “Well, maybe you shouldn’t have had that big ass TV” or “Well, if you had three locks instead of two, this wouldn’t have happened”? Nope. If your car was stolen, do your neighbors point and whisper in hushed tones about how you loaned to everyone so it was only a matter of time before the car was stolen…. Hmmm, I don’t think so.
Until recently it was okay to rape your spouse because it was her wifely duty to put out even if she didn’t feel like it. In May, Anderson Cooper reported that hundreds of thousands of rape kits have gone unprocessed. Not a hundred…. not a thousand but hundreds of thousands
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/28/keeping-them-honest-rape-kits-go-untested-for-decades/
Guess what? We are tired of hearing we were responsible for our own assaults. We’d like for the rapist, you know the person who actually did the crime to be the one responsible. We want to know that when we say No, it means No…. not you’ll change your mind after a few drinks. We want the basics of capacity to be understood– if the person is underage, drunk, high, or mentally incapable of giving consent, then guess what???? Find someone who is and try to hook up with them rather than the “easy target”. We are tired of being told how we should have handled it, what we should have done and who we should have called. If you want to know what goes when you’ve been sexually assaulted, go read comment 2107. I detailed what happened to my niece who was 14 at the time of her assault. Maybe if people treated rape/sexual assault victims like people rather than co-rapists in their own rape, people wouldn’t be afraid of going to the police.
Onamission5, no problem! But, and I hesitate to bring this up, you referred to James Waller as a… person. As Real True Skeptics, shouldn’t we withhold judgement until we see some proof of humanity? Perhaps we could get xxxwhatshername on the case?
(/sarcasm)
nonsont, I’ve gone back and read all the comments that were posted while I was composing my comments. Thanks for sharing your story; FWIW, my thoughts and support are with you.
hjhornbeck@3085:
Yeah, I’ve come across a lot of people who like to angrily hate upon their ideas of straw feminism. I’m not sure that’s dishonest, per se, rather than just lazy. Instead of learning anything at all through even the shallowest of research, they build up an idea of what they want to hate upon, and then commence the hating.
On second thought, I guess that is just basically dishonest.
Yeah, about this particular piece of ugliness…
No, you don’t just want more information to pass judgement. First of all, it’s not your place to pass judgement. The whole point of Jane Doe doing what she did was to warn women, to prevent more rapes. You can choose not to believe her, that’s fine. It is not a matter of judgement, however, no matter how high and mighty you think you happen to be.
That said, something else which has already been covered, multiple times in this thread, is that guys who want details is a tell. It’s something most women, whether they have been sexually assaulted or not, are familiar with. It’s the creep vibe, the oh gods, doucheweasel ahead vibe. As I said earlier, a decent human being does not require details to empathize with someone. Only creepy assholes demand details, and only extra-creepy doucheweasels attempt to cover their demand for details with wording like I just want more information before I will pass judgement.
Dalillama:
Happily accepted, thank you.
Trigger Warning. I may not be as successful with the bitter sarcasm as I think I am.
The Seven Steps of Rape Apology
1. Assume the victim “did something” to cause the rape or failed to do something to stop it.
2. Tell the victim to go to the police no matter how improbable it is that he or she will be believed and if he or she is NOT believed, feel proud of yourself for knowing it was all phony.
3. Refuse to accept that the majority of accusations are true, hold out for any kind of study or article that says a huge number of rape accusations are false and exaggerate whatever number you start with, because victims lie.
4. Demand better evidence than “just the victim’s word” no matter how many victims there are saying the same thing, because helpless men deserve due process.
5. Demand details, the more the merrier because everybody loves to talk about something that made them feel hurt and shame, except for lying liars.
6. Insist that any man who is not covered in slime and carrying the head of his last victim under his arm, could not possibly have done something so nasty as rape.
7. And most important of all, remember it’s ONLY a rape, not something serious, so tell people, especially victims, to calm down.
Maybe y’all should move into my neck of the woods. The local bars use plastic shot cups that can only hold one shot, and they mix your drink in front of you.
I’d consider myself lucky, but c’mon: I’d never get my drink with extra alcohol anyway.
I wonder how long it’ll take for some asshat to claim that the extra alcohol is a privilege for women.
Honesty I don’t remember it, I only know what my “friends” at the time told me happened. My recollection is sitting at a table playing quarters then waking up in the hospital. This is the first time in 30 years I have mentioned it, kinda makes me uncomfortable.
Also, to the people making all these innocent/guilty claims, stop it. That’s not how we make decisions.
When deciding who to believe when a claim is made, we consider the a priori possibility of the claim and modify it with what evidence we get afterwards. The processing of the claim is as such:
We open with “What is the probability of Michael Shermer having assaulted someone”?
Now personal friends, etc. might be less willing to think this possible, or more so. As a member of the general public, though, I would open with the odds being between 5 and 10 percent, based on statistics among the general population.
Now, I have also heard a number of reports from varied and unrelated people that suggest he has been sexist in the past, so I would put the probability of him being an assailaint somewhat higher, maybe a few percent points higher. But what’s more, it also lends much more credibility to claims of further sexism by establishing patterns of behaviour and belief. As I find it much more likely a member of NOM would do something to assault a gay person than I would George Takai or the person on the street.
When a claim is made anonymously, on the internet, it is true it is in general harder for me to trust that claim, based on the massive amount of trolling and lying going around in the world. But claims of rape, bluntly, are rarely made in jest or evil, so I would still be willing to, with that background especially, put my beliefs somewhere very high. What’s more, recognizing the harm of disbelief, I would be sure to support the victim.
What’s more, when a known person stakes his credibility on the line and vouches for the claim, that it is not an internet troll, then I find the reason to believe exceptionally powerful. Hence, I think, the absurd conspiracy theories that PZ would make up a rape story to hurt Michael Shermer because he hates him so much. Like Republicans who hate Obama and make up absurd stories of his hatred of white culture and FEMA camps, etc. they believe things so far beyond the realm of reality as to be laughable to protect their egos and not have to examine their own inner failings.
For me, my Baysean prior approaches 1 at this point. But let’s be absurdly conservative and assume that all of this merely leads you to believe that you merely move from a 10% belief to a 50% belief. That will still change your behaviour vis-a-vis this person. You might be more cautious, keep an eye out, etc.
In the case he is a predator, this will protect people whom he would otherwise harm.
In the case he is not, this will almost certainly come out. And he will have dealt with a bit of added suspicion, and that will have sucked.
But the point I want to make is that there are two issues I see being conflated. The first is the release of and action on information. The other is how we assess the probability of truth.
We recognize the great harm of sexual assault which means that we ought to act on information we have that someone might be a predator. That’s why we make sure to affirm our belief of the victim, and our support for the victim. IT’s why PZ released the claim.
But believing that Shermer is a predator comes from the facts. Our willingness to act when our beliefs aren’t held to five sigma standards is because of the former, but we don’t believe any harder because of the consequences. Our beliefs matter more. If I have a 50 percent belief it’s raining out, I might hesistate to bring an umbrella. If I have a fifty percent belief that someone is a rapist, I will not hesitate at all to make sure people know- so as to either defuse my suspicions or to prevent harm.
Which is the point. We use information to form our beliefs, and we act based on our assessments of the consequences. This is straight up like all decisions we make. It’s not special or unique. What’s unique is denying this when it comes to sexual assault. Worrying about lying women, assuming PZ must be more interested in hurting Shermer than helping women, bogging discussion down in rules lawyering about rape as though the legal definition matters more than the harm done by rapists. That’s rape culture, and it’s bullshit.
Skeptianthro:
Yes, that’s a hell of thing, ennit? It’s interesting how all the deniers, apologists and hand-wringers bemoaning the terrible fate of Shermer, in the midst of all their constant nattering about false accusations and shaming people for not reporting, they never have a fucking thing to say about this situation, which has been brought up in this thread, time and time again.
Hundreds of thousands of people who did report. Who went and had rape kits done. Well, all you flaming doucheweasels, let’s hear it. These people did everything right, according to your own standards. How’s that justice system lookin’ now?
I… I think I have finally caught up. x_x
In response to those hypotheticals of “how would you feel if you were accused”… My response would be along the lines of “I feel terrible that some aspect of my behaviour has caused you to feel victimized. I know there is no real way to make up for that, but I will endeavor to never repeat that action again.”
Even if I was completely innocent, I would apologise to the person who sincerely felt harmed by me. Because I have empathy. Because I don’t want to cause someone pain.
MrFancyPants @3090:
Exactly. If you make an argument or advance an opinion, you are implying that you know something about the topic. Unless someone with equal or greater knowledge comes around, you’ll be considered an expert. Hence, being too lazy to understand what you are attacking is a form of dishonesty.
Lyn M:
That was wonderful. I’ve bookmarked it, and I’m going to copypasta it every time an apologist posts. Kinda like how when a bell rings, an angel gets their wings. ;D
[OT]
Pteryxx:
Back on page 6 you mentioned the intoxication rate of women vs men. Here in Florida, restaurants with bars must have all employees who handle alcohol routinely attend Responsible Vendor Training programs. Sponsored by the state, these classes inform the staff of the relevant information regarding the sale of alcohol. I have sat through over 15 of these classes. One of the key points we are taught is that women metabolize alcohol faster than men…but that is affected by other factors. Physical size, amount of food consumed, and frequency of drink consumption are important factors.
This describes other factors (though I was unaware ethnicity was one)
One thing that surprises people—> a standard mixed drink containing 1.25 oz of liquor contains the same amount of alcohol by volume as a 5 oz glass of wine and a 12 oz bottle of beer. People who say they do not get drunk off a 12 pack of beer or bottle of wine are wrong. UNLESS they are aware of the rate at which alcohol is processed in the body and drink accordingly. Which leads to the
Second thing that surprises people—> it takes roughly one hour for one drink (equivalent to 1.25 oz of liquor) to be processed by the body. But few people I know drink one beverage an hour. If you consume 5 drinks in an hour, it will take ~5 hours to process the alcohol out of your system. You might have the tolerance to not feel drunk, but you will be legally intoxicated. Bear in mind this applies to standard drinks and beer (i.e. not 150 proof liquor or beer with 10% alcohol)
jameswaller:
So. Do I have to again point out that 92% of accusations of rape are true? Really? And do I again have to point out that this isn’t a legal forum, nor is anyone after prosecution here?
Because this has been covered. Time and again. It’s like you’re not even fucking reading the comments here. Is that the case, James? Are you reading the comments? Or do you have a comprehension problem? Because you’re asking the same fucking questions that have been answered before. And instead of addressing potential flaws in those answers, you’re pretending those answers don’t even exist.
*pant* *pant*
Yeah. I’m not gonna take you seriously. Yeah, I kinda pissed. Y’know why? Because it’s knuckleheads like you who don’t even bother to try to comprehend the discussion that’s already occurred that kinda piss me off.
Just a bit.
Let’s try this statement on for size:
Nice strawman. Built of solid titanium supposition, with just the right amount of not even close to what was presented. Good job! You deserve a gold star.
It’s nice that you ignore actual statistics, that 1 in 6 women will be raped in their lifetimes. Nice that you ignore the fact that 54% of all rapes will go unreported, because the system demonstrably fails rape victims. Good job just completely ignoring the effects of power differentials.
Y’know, you don’t have to be completely powerless in general, to be powerless in certain situations. I mean, if the other person has more power at their command. It’s like bringing a knife to a gun fight. It’s not that you’re powerless, especially against someone who has no weapon. It’s just that you’re out-powered.
That’s how the real world works. I don’t have the same power as a millionaire, for example.
But then, I think you know that. It just doesn’t work with your chosen narrative, does it, Sweet Pea?
Oh, my! We call stupid opinions stupid! How dare we? That speaks volumes!
But most importantly, we kinda back up our arguments with logic, evidence, and style. And I know that’s gotta hurt.
PZ, thanks for banning jameswaller.
Now, with the troll gone, time for some personalities:
Caine, thanks again.
—
I’ve never been a drinker, or hung out with people or places where drinking was done. I need to tell my parents “thanks” for setting a good example.
—
Long years ago, Michael Shermer was into long-distance bicycling. This was back when I was doing a lot of bicycling myself. He rode across the USA a few times, I think, in 9 days or so. It was a thing for a while, there (I once rode with his rival Lon Haldeman, when we met on a Kansas road I was touring along, slowly).
Shermer was someone Id heard of, back in the day. So when he came up in the skeptic line, I paid a little more attention to his backstory than some might have.
My point is that his backstory says that his conversion to skepticism came after being gullible about all kinds of performance-enhancing hokum. He realized it was a lot of hooey, and went skeptical.
My own, personal, take on that, is that he was gullible—believed what he wanted to—and converted abruptly, rather than slowly developing understanding. Me, I don’t trust conversions—people don’t change—they were an ass without Jesus, now they are an ass with Jesus backing them up.
So to me, Shermer was never a True Skeptic™. Not that skepticism means what it used to mean.
Shermer wants what he wants, and will do anything to get it, and will believe anything he needs to to get it.
That’s his life.
+++
I wrote the above just from my memories, then read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shermer , which says he was a fundie, is a libertarian, worked with Fox and has enough good stuff going on that even getting convicted of rape wouldn’t mess up his life much.
notsont: for what it’s worth, remember it’s your call how to feel about it and process it. Using my own example, my rape per se didn’t bother me that much and (so far) isn’t particularly triggering; it was in the context of ongoing abuse that left far more damage. It still took many years and listening to the Horde for me to realize that’s what it was, though.
Nigel:
You always delight me. Always.
Thank you, Caine! I got the idea from you, of course.
*Goes to other room, does chicken dance and pats herself on back.*
Pteryxx:
Seconding.
Nigel@3102:
james has been banned and might be gone, but that post of yours was still a thing of beauty!
Lyn M:
Hee. Toss a couple of moves and extra pat in there for me. :D
notsont:
I’m not giving advice, because I’ve not experienced what you have experienced. But, from Pteryxx:
Thirded.
I can’t offer advice. But I can offer my support, if you want it.
Caine: lol
*Tries to do a back flip. Straightens knocked over furniture. Does not try again.*
Back patting, though, this I can do.
@2990 Caine and Pteryxx.
Not news here. Anyone in food/drink business knows alcohol is profit, clubs are there only for profit and the way to profit is clientele with money they will peel out for drinks by the pocketful, and one of the easiest ways to lure in young heteronormative dudes, is to have ‘co-ed’ club bars where heteronormative dudettes adorn the place (yes, adorn) with the implication teh Sex is in the air and booze is the lubricant. If a place gets a rep for its female clientele being sufficiently pliant due to booze, how fast does the clubbing rumour mill get that around? kaching.
In that sense MRA whiners are correct about Ladies’ nights…it’s to lure menz in (except for the rare place that simply closes the bar to men while a ladies night event is on) but the MRA whiners decide to blame women for the sales pitch instead of the culture that ‘grooms’ men so thoroughly.
Good bartenders, great bartenders and completely skeevy bartenders exist to profit themselves on drinkers, but it’s a rare club/bar that knowingly lets bartenders have a free heavy hand with the portions without certainty it’s an investment for the business at the end of the night.
In the average bar, women still suffer from centuries of attitude that ‘good’ girls don’t go to bars/don’t work in bars/ don’t drink alcohol/don’t get drunk etc. Women and alcohol *anywhere* still fail the ‘purity’ test of respected existence, as blithely attested to in this thread. There are manymanymany young women enjoying the club scene, but that spectre haunts every one of them. As an addendum, it’s harder for a woman to be taken seriously for opinions on craft alcohols because…well..she’s drinking booze!
All the howling about ‘oh it must be regrets the morning after’ are such a…modern take on the drunk woman equals fair game for predation, a weak tea excuse that has to give the nod that it’s not totalllllly ok anymore to say a woman drinking is defacto consenting to whatever is done to her. But it all still seems to come back to ‘but if a drunk woman isn’t fair game how will I get laid.’
Tony: it’s interesting your class teaches that women process alcohol faster, because that’s the opposite of the prevailing scientific and medical view as far as I know, confirmed by the citations I glanced over just now: for instance here and here. (One says women tend to clear alcohol from the bloodstream faster, but that’s after getting higher BACs in a shorter time from drinking the same amount and rate as men.)
I’m not sure how off-topic that is given a skeptical discussion about possible medical bias and myths about women, alcohol, and rape.
The one argument I do not understand is the “willing had sex and then regrets it” I can;t seem to connect the dots in how this makes any sense at all.
MrFancyPants:
*blush* Thank you.
This is why I totes oppose the banhammer. I’m always a bit late. Everyone else’s teeth are sniny. Mine are merely lustrous.
They might even gleam, under the right lighting.
@3104
When I was in second grade the neighbor’s kid that came over one night to babysit us, assaulted me. He got a hold of me and tried to pull my pants down. I twisted free and ran out of the house and waited for my parents on the swing. I did go back in the house after a while but kept my distance. I was so young though that this didn’t’t really feel as traumatic as it may sound… I wasn’t afraid. I just wanted him to leave me the fuck alone, you know? I found the public groping I got one time while waiting for a train in Switzerland during my teen years a lot more disturbing.
notsont
You’re trying to make sense of nonsense is your problem.
I think, in their heads, that it’s something to do with her getting back at him or her trying to say it wasn’t her fault; you’ll notice that “female responsibility” is a common trope among sexist asshats. I can’t count the number of people that claim feminists are trying to erase “female responsibility,” as if women aren’t held responsible for their sexual assault all to often.
cuervodecuero @3112:
Weeeird. I shared this depressing insight elsewhere, only to have a woman with a decade of serving experience say she’d never heard of that.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not doubting you. I’m just happy to say this situation isn’t universal!
TW for disgusting thinking processes. I do not believe any of this nonsense.
It only makes “sense” – and I use the word loosely – in a context where sex is Bad, and Good Girls don’t do that, but Good Girls are really all Dirty Lying Sluts.
So if a Good Girl had sex, being a Dirty Lying Slut, she not only probably suckered the poor innocent man into it, but now she won’t want to be talked about as a Bad Girl. Because honesty and integrity aren’t something a woman does.
So, she’ll naturally just accuse the man of raping her – because who wouldn’t believe a Good Girl? – and therefore his innocence will be forever trammeled, while her reputation will remain pure as the driven snow. Because it’s Just That Easy.
And this happens All The Time.
This is why we know that false accusations are both common and tremendously important to refute.
You have to be able to believe seven impossible things simultaneously to follow this, or be raised in one of a number of varieties of Christianity. Don’t feel bad for having been confused.
I have to go wash now.
Another de-lurkering. Just registered.
I first came to the Skeptic movement thru Phil Plait’s old blog and wandered over
to SkeptChic for a time. I read Rebecca’s original post about the elevator and thought it was a reasoned response to an uncomfortable situation, recalling some of my own asshattery years ago and was lucky I had the kind of female friends that could pull me aside and point it out.
Then came the fallout. Shit. I was so disgusted with it all I stopped reading blogs for months.
So now here’s PZ’s grenade.
I don’t go to conferences, had no idea who M Shermer was (is), had to look him up.
I started reading this thread at 300+, had to rest, went back and read it till I caught up last night at 1500+. Too burned to comment.
I never even talk to my partner about blogs till I catch up with the comments because issues evolve and I don’t feel I have all of it. I want to be responsible in my own mind before even verbalizing.
That said — Caine, you and the Horde have a strength I envy.
Jane doe, I wish you better than you been treated here, and I hope you’re not following this
thread too closely. There are a ton of good people who feel for you, but the crap you would
have to slough through may or may not be worth it. Perhaps someone at a later date it could be
condensed for you.
To you Shit faced apoligists who didn’t even read the post, let alone a single comment but your
own, Burn in hell. I read you till I got sick. Every. stinking.line.and.post. The only pleasure was PZ banning the worst.
I saw many others delurking just because of this — incredible assault — on PZ, Jane, and any
defender even patiently explaining the issues here. It’s not too hard to follow, and I personally
never realized what kind of problem rape is, and how it’s perceived by the Ol boys.
PZ – Thanks. I’m curious, and I deserve a “none of your goddam business” response; but how
long did you agonize over this? I would have spent days.
Caine, Prax, and all the Horde you are incredible. I was 10 years customer service dealing with
escalated customers and I’m exhausted after 1 day of reading.
I stand with you
Pteryxx:
Gah!
Sorry, getting a bit tired here.
I should have reread that before posting.
The research you speak to is correct. For the average woman alcohol enters the bloodstream faster than it does in men, which leads to them getting intoxicated faster than men…
Or, from my link earlier:
Well, if everyone else is making admissions…
I was comparatively lucky. I was about 10. Two girls on my bus explained in detail what sexual things they wanted to do with me. They were younger than I was by two years, so at the time I brushed it off. I was a boy after all, and brushing stuff aside was what boys are supposed to do. Their words got stuck in my head, and I ruminated on them later that night. I started crying, and my mother came to see what was wrong.
My mother was fantastic, and went straight to the school to complain. The school was fantastic about it as well. Feeling safe again, I stopped worrying and forgot about it, never considering again until years later.
nigelTheBold, also Avo @3102:
I’m starting to suspect we have a big problem up here in Soviet Canuckistan. Swapping in our figures:
Between that and our unusually low gendered income gap, us Northern feminists have a lot of work on our hands…
As best I can tell… in the rape context, it’s basically a flat-out lie. Nobody goes and puts themselves through a rape investigation, with all that entails, because they had happy sex and then realized the next day they shouldn’t have, as if they’d skipped out on studying for a final or something. That’s a lie up there with silly women having elective abortions at 8.5 months.
‘You know what consent looks like’ is the best example I know of debunking it as an experience. That link again:
Fugitivus comment
I seem to have lost my point there in 3122. I meant to say that, whatever the incident, it’s yours, and you’ve every right to respond to it as you feel necessary. There’s no right way to respond to being hurt or victimized.
I think it’s an extension(???) of the conventional story of the pregnant daughter of super-controlling parents has no alternative but to claim rape if she doesn’t want to be kicked out of the house, never to darken the door again. It’s the other side of the shotgun marriage/ ‘he did the right thing by her’ coin. Both of these traditional fables died a far too prolonged death 40+ years ago.
Oo, oo, anecdata time! Situation was that a resident of my dorm and her friend decided that they were going to get rip-roaring drunk one Friday. Around 7pm, one of them was nearly passed out in the lounge (the other had staggered her own way to bed). Sounds pretty much like the “poor innocent college boy” example so far, don’t it?
I carried her up to her room, put her on the bed, and, making sure the door was locked, left. Even though she had actually slurred a proposition to me on the way to the room.
The next morning at breakfast she vaguely remembered someone carrying her upstairs, and clearly someone had been in her room, and she was worried that something had happened. I’d made sure that other people saw me put her on her bed and immediately leave. I’m pretty sure one of them even jiggled the door to make sure it was really locked as I was walking away, but that was okay. So they told her what had happened, and instead of being accused of anything, I received an embarrassed thank you. All because I didn’t try anything and went to the (very minor) effort of ensuring that there was verification that I didn’t try anything because I knew what a situation like that could look like.
It’s *easy* to avoid false accusations in most of the standard mythical scenario apologists come up with. One of the primary ways of doing so? Remembering that being offered sex doesn’t mean you have to accept it. I realize that, apparently, this is apparently extraordinarily difficult for some people. Likely due to abject stupidity.
*waves to The Horde*
Hello, everyone. I’ve been gone because of lots of personal things and I wasn’t handling anything well so I made an ass out of myself on a thread. It made me realize I had to step back because I was doing more harm than good, to myself and others.
But I’ve kept lurking and reading. It took days but I’ve finally caught up on this thread.
To the Jane Does, I believe you. I support you. Thank you for coming forward and telling your story. I’m so sorry this happened to you.
To The Horde, especially Caine, Pterryx, Tony, thank you. Thank for all the support, and the ferocious, admirable defense against assholes and the bullshit they spew. It’s no easy task and I commend you all for doing it.
I’m so unbelievably glad the rift is ever widening and that there’s people like you to side with and back me up. You make a difference. You make the world a better place.
I love the idea of spreading Don’t Be That Guy campaign and bringing it here. I’ve forgotten if this was also suggested earlier (far too sleep deprived and teary eyed, sorry) but I’m also wondering if maybe we can have some for blogs? Like a Don’t Be That Guy graphic with a link to put on sidebars or wherever. I know lots of people here have blogs with their own traffic and I’ve got other online pseudonyms where I’d happily put it up.
Of course, that might be going too close to the “Change your facebook profile pic to act like you make a difference for child abuse, etc” but it’s the first thing I thought of so I wanted to throw that idea out there. Since it’s all about awareness and billboards/ad cost money…
Rufus1010:
I thank you.
JAL!
Jacob:
That’s uplifting. I’m so glad you have such a great mom and that your school was responsive and supportive.
#3130 Pteryxx
Pteryxx!
Sorry, about getting your nym wrong in previous comment. I must be a pirate, always wanting to put extra r’s in everything. lol
notsont@3114:
Yeah, me neither. It just doesn’t make a lot of sense.
I mean, let’s stipulate that sometimes, stone cold sober or otherwise, people occasionally have sex they regret, for a variety of reasons. So let’s review the options for a woman who has just had sex she regrets.
1) Silence. It’s not like there’s a neon sign that hovers around your head saying “I had sex with Socially Undesirable Dude” afterward. You don’t have to tell anyone about it. This avoids all the shame you’re concerned about. And if SUD starts bragging to people, or someone saw you making the “walk of shame” the next morning, you can always proceed to Option 2.
2) Deny it. You never had sex with him. Sure, you were seen flirting with him at the party, but you came to your senses. Ok, you left with him, but then he dropped you off at home. Ok, you stayed at his place/he stayed at yours, but you/he just passed out on the couch and nothing happened. If he says something happened, he’s lying. Note that all of these are lies, but they’re the kind of lies that don’t get anyone into trouble.
3) Admit it and move on. Fine, you had sex with SUD. It was a mistake, it was lousy, you don’t intend to do it again.
4) Admit that you had sex with him, but say you were raped. This is worse than options 1 or 2, because you are actually confirming that you had sex. But hey, maybe those options aren’t feasible because someone saw the neon “I had sex with SUD” sign hovering above your head, and it’s better than option 3, right? Sure… because everyone knows that people think so highly of rape victims. Ignore all that research about how women bend over backwards to avoid calling something rape. And besides, it’s not like there’s a history of rape complainants being called sluts and liars. And if you’re embarrassed about having had sex with Socially Undesirable Dude, the best way to sweep that under the table is to create a huge controversy and possible civil and criminal proceedings about it, because that will surely not force you to talk about it further or lead to additional gossip. Yep, this is so clearly the best option for you personally that it’s totally worth lying and getting an innocent man into trouble.
Keithm:
Yay you! You are a shining example of a decent human being.
Split Hairs all over the place…
1) You know you have been raped period, it goes deep, it’s not just you got drunk and woke up and WTF.
2) You know you got raped.
3) You got raped.
4) You got raped, and are told to ignore it. Because of:
A) You were drunk.
B) You wore a sexy dress, or for a man something else (sorry guys, I don’t know how you get raped, but I acknowledge it)
C) You really were not raped according to community standards.
5) Fuck OFF
————
(TW for description)
————
as long as I’m more or less still at it, here’s probably the key point from “You know what consent looks like” about the myth that she just regretted it after:
JAL! *pouncehugs of ferocity!*
Oh man, I’m an idiot sometimes. I’ll find a campaign graphic tomorrow and have them up on my blogs. Thank you.
iraven:
Amen.
PZ @3066
Nope, not a bit. But since I just finished writing it:
jameswaller @3054
I could not help but utter a noise that caused three cats to flee the room and my wife to think I had seriously injured myself. You are clearly the product of years of advanced study in cluelessness.
Could a link to the wiki page with the Greasemonkey killfile script be added to the original post?
@Caine(#1703):
Initially that that might have been due to the OP and thread being about warning women away.
At this point things have changed though courtesy of the apologists.
The ones who go for the you were asking for it because of X should reread the thread and see if they can find the comment about the guy looking like he’s in a biker gang being raped. That one should drive home that anyone can be a victim and that it doesn’t matter to the attacker what their victim is/was doing.
And seeing that I’ve hit a ‘nice’ trigger myself (good thing I’ve got chemical sleep I’m going to use in about 14 hours) I think I’m going to work that one out by contacting a government sponsored non profit here and seeing if they can’t do an ad campaign like that. They are doing one like that for people who have HIV/AIDS, I just hope they can find people who are mentally though enough. And I’m going to send that don’t be that guy campaign to them as well.
@Tony! The Flaming Queer Shoop(#2526)
Because they are right and heaven forbid if they are wrong since that would require a re-evaluation that their personality can’t handle so they must be right.
@skemono(#2650):
‘Sorry’ about the repeat profanity but the people aren’t worth going into lurid details about their insalubrious past, present or anything else for that matter.
@Gertrud(#2775):
This is not a personal attack against you it is just how I feel about the censoring of people no matter how justified it is since in the end it works against the bastards.
No, no and no again. This kind of no holds barred slugging is actively needed. It brings out the true character of these defenders, and so far every single excuse they’ve brought has been vaporized which reduces the places others can hide behind to excuse their actions. Culture change doesn’t come by being nice to each other, it happens by exposing how bad a social mores is and that means a LOT of kicking and screaming (usually by the party that doesn’t want to change/give up a bit of privilege). It does something else as well, this thread has had more people coming out with stories of what happened to them then any thread before. And each and every of those stories adds to the debunking that rape/assault is rare and happens only by strangers (seeing that all stories in this thread so far have been at least acquaintance level). And each and every person who tells their story increases the chance that others will come out as well seeing that they are not alone and that by coming out they might prevent something similar from happening. Then there are the incredible amount of people coming out of hiding just to show that there are people who care in the world.
@Caine:
I wish I could do something (aside from saying thank you) to thank you for your efforts here (and your partner & pets for their support of you).
Same goes to Nerd and Pteryxx and anyone one else who has been (not so) gently been explaining to the idiots why they are wrong.
@JamesWaller(#2033, post banhammer but I need to get it out of my system):
Who are we to judge minimal harm? Who are we to judge? Some of us are survivors of rape. It doesn’t matter if it is as a kid just hitting puberty awakening at night because someone who you thought of as a friend is sucking you of till you blow a load or if you are almost left for dead by a serial rapist. You are saying that that kind of trauma generated by that doesn’t count because a person being accused of rape might be inconvenienced. The entire culture and system is biased against the accuser in rape cases so just the accusation results in little (if any) harm to the accused. Further as has been abundantly documented in this thread the chance from getting to accusation to jail time is low and if there is no conviction the accuser will be run out of town tarred and feathered on a rail (which might still happen after a conviction). So take one of porcupines Caine has lying around and shove it up your ass.
There’s been some objection upthread from certain posters concerning being told to “fuck off” and that got me thinking.
Well cupcakes, you don’t have to actually fuck off.
You could, for example, simply take off.
You could move off, veer off, twist off or flake off.
You could climb up to the top and then jump off.
Or slink off, slough off, slither off or slump off.
You could, for instance, spin off or maybe even roll off.
You could sprint off or saunter off; perhaps you’d rather stroll off?
You could skate off, bike off, motor off or drive off.
You could take a long walk on a short pier and dive off.
You could get into bed and quietly nod off.
Feeling British? Well, then feel free to sod off.
You could float off, sail off, paddle off or drift off.
Pretend you’re a rocket and blast off or lift off.
You could wander off or fall off or quietly just ride off.
You could set off or get off or grease your feet and slide off.
You could flip, flop, or fly off; you could take a little time off.
Or, failing to listen to my clever rhyme-off . . . what?
You’re still here? Weren’t you told to FUCK OFF??
I keep falling behind, but I made the Horde a present and so I’m going to leave a link to it here. You all are amazing people, and I wish I could be there fist in the air with the rest of you, but all my spoons are melty.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/deoridhe/9482096133/
JAL:
Wonderful to see you!
@Caine, Fleur du mal, #3131:
My inner cynic suggests that if the genders had been reversed, the school might not have been so supportive. Then again, that might be the fact that I read all 3000+ posts arguing with rape apologists speaking.
Oh, and re: #3134:
Isn’t it sad that this is so rare that you say “yay” when somebody isn’t a rapist? Funny, it’s a feat that many people manage on a regular basis — we don’t say “congratulations, you didn’t savagely beat anyone to death!” or “thanks for not breaking into anyone’s house and stealing all their stuff”, but rape is such a special case that when we hear someone is not a rapist, it’s amazing. Sad.
keithm:
Thank you.
Thank you for being a compassionate human being.
deoridhe,
Aw, that’s awesome!
Crudely Wrott @3141:
Brilliant work. An excellent way to end my day!
hjhornbeck #3123:
Those numbers are horrendous! And I thought the US was bad!
We’ve got work to do.
You know, re: all the apologia about ‘drunk women aren’t really being raped,’ when I was a kid my dad said something that always stuck with me–a kid can’t consent to sex with an adult EVER. Even if a kid takes their clothes off and lays on the floor, begging for it, the adult would be a rapist if they did anything. A kid should always be safe to be around any adult, naked, begging and still nothing should happen. Because kids can’t consent to sex with adults. Not ever.
Same principle applies to drunk people.
(Also makes me think these same apologists have some icky views on pedophilia/child rape.)
Susannah
I’m also Canadian. Do you have a link to those stats, please?
Deoridhe:
Lovely present!
****
Vicar:
I was thinking the exact same thing.
For now though, since our culture is in the state it is, I am glad to point and say “I am so glad he was not *that* guy”.
Who Cares, that was a great post! Thank you.
Deoridhe, eeeeeeee, love it! Thank you!
Lyn M: I got the link from hjhornbeck, and it’s in my comment. Here they are again.
NOW I see it, Susannah, thanks for your patience.
Well, it’s slowed down, it’s 3am, and I’m done.
You lot are amazing, compassionate, savage, brilliant people, and I’m proud to be allowed in.
Good night.
notable bit from Susannah’s link: (bolds mine)
Even if it’s out of date, that’s horrific.
Yeah, it is time to turn in.
Good night. You are all an inspiration.
G’night, Pete. I’m going to try to snooze a bit, too. I have a feeling the Painfully close to the truth thread is going to go critical later on this morning.
deoridhe, that’s just so cool!
Thanks for the artwork and the message. It’s a small thing in and of itself but it is a big, wonderful deal for you to make it and give it to everyone here. We need each other. Together we are really something wonderful.
G’night, Tony. Sleep sweet.
. . . sympathetic yawn . . .
Well, another night not getting to sleep til after 3 am. Lots of folks around here with some serious sleep deficits.
G’night, all. Sleep well.
I’ll look in from time to time, but I really have to put in some time studying. This Chinese isn’t going to speak itself.
Good night to those who are in that zone.
Yeah, gonna hate myself in the morning for watching this thread so late (fuckin’ 7am shifts). G’night all, you’ve been wonderful.
For the horde in general, and Caine specifically:
Thank you.
About a year and a half ago, my best friend was raped. From what I’ve learned while lurking here and at other feminist-friendly blogs, I didn’t tell her she should go to the police. I didn’t tell her she shouldn’t go to the police. I didn’t tell her she should press charges. I didn’t tell her to calm down, tell me everything. I didn’t tell her that she was overreacting, that the guy misread her body language, that the guy deserved some benefit of the doubt.
Instead, I got her some tea, told her that I believed her, that I trusted her, and that I would support whatever decision she would make.
I don’t want to think about how I would have acted, if it had happened three years ago.
So thank you. You are making a difference.
@Parse(#3164): I just started tearing up when I read what you did. That was about the best thing you could do. Trust is so important after a rape happens and you gave that in spades.
holy shit, i think i caught up. and i also lost the notes i had that i meant to respond to, so I’ll skip the extensive quote-and-respond and just make a few comments from memory:
1)Thanks Lyn M for saying the word “countenance”. I knew there was a word similar to conscience that actually worked the way CarolDee was trying to use it, but it wouldn’t come to me and it’s been niggling me since then. So now that minor annoyance has been taken care of.
2)I noticed commentary that tried to hypothesize about the feelings of “real rape victims” to the situation, as if the thread weren’t full of such. The last one was james asking Caine if she felt alcohol-induced date-rape somehow diminished her own rape… despite the fact that her actions speak pretty loudly to what the answer is; and before that it was another ass making one of those what-if-you-were-accused scenarios and said something along the lines of (but even if I were right, don’t you think your victims would be upset about me going about it this way?”, again despite the fact that various victims and near-victims have repeatedly made it clear how they feel about these kinds of anonymous warnings. What the fuck is that?
3)If people are thinking about expanding the Don’t Be That Guy campaign, may I suggest including a Don’t Be That Gal campaign? Not the victim-blaming kind the MRAs trotted out, but the “don’t be the gal who rapes a guy cuz she thinks guys always want it” kind.
4)I actually thought what I’d feel if a blog post like this (meaning: known and trustworthy-to-some blogger vouches for an anonymous-to-readers person accusing me of rape and quotes their story) came up about me. I’d expect that what would happen is that people would weigh how much they trusted the blogger, what they knew about me (e.g. if there have been stories of me being creepy and slimy to people, etc.), what they knew about what the blogger was risking by posting an accusation of me, etc. And then people would decide whether they thought it was a good idea to offer to let me crash in their hotelrooms/homes or share a ride to a con with me or whatever; or whether they thought I was still worth interacting with on a friendly basis. I’d probably lose some contacts that way. That would be annoying, but kinda not a big deal. I do know for a fact that my boyfriend wouldn’t buy that accusation, unless it didn’t come from a blogger but from one of 2 people we both know whom he’d trust with that accusation. So my personal life wouldn’t suffer a damn thing from it. My professional life might go a bit wonky, since I don’t have any professional reputation in the academic field I’m going into at all yet, and I might end up getting considered “not worth the trouble” by a small number of places I apply to grad school or for a job. That wouldn’t do shit to my income though, since the way I earn money doesn’t depend on my name being clean of accusations. Most people who bought my work probably wouldn’t be able to recall the name I sell it under if their lives depended on it, since all they probably did was see a graphic they needed, click on it, and hit the download button.
I’d probably be pretty pissed off at the accusation being made, and also creeped the fuck out at myself for thinking I might have done something that actually got interpreted as even close to what I’d be accused of (assuming the accusation isn’t something that doesn’t remotely resemble anything that would be possible for me to have done, to my own knowledge), and I’d probably figure out what happened and how to avoid causing such an impression. And I’d probably go hermit for a while, cuz that’s how i deal with social stress.
As far as I can judge that, that’s not too horrible, compared to the flipside, which is the categorical social taboo on sharing such information. OTOH, I’m actually the wrong person to ask; “what would you do if it were you” is the wrong question to ask, of most of us. There are marginalized demogrphics historically vulnerable to accusation and to consequences of accusation; it’s them we should be asking whether a climate where a post like the OP is possible does more harm than good.
5)Last thing: I noticed a pattern in these kinds of mega-threads: most of it is shitweasels whining and the horde fighting against it, but what you also get is people with epiphanies (e.g. guys suddenly realizing why their female lab partners back in grad school were all being weird and wanting them along for shit they were fully capable of doing themselves), and people reaching a point in their lives where they feel they can share their stories of abuse on here, which I think as a positive and brave sort of thing. As emotionally exhausting and time-consuming as these threads are, they do seem to serve a function, so there’s that.
Okay, so 3000+ comments in and STILL no one can demonstrate actual harm to Shermer or his precious reputation?
WHERE’S YOUR EVIDENCE NOW?
Also, ALL the love to Caine. You are a super hero. And hugs to everyone else. Y’all are why I want to be part of *this* little community on the interwebs.
I want to come back to those who proclaim that it is skeptical to require more evidence before you will believe a claim.
Okay, if we accept that, the skeptic is then faced with the problem that it is also unskeptical to disbelieve it.
Claims have been made. The evidence comprises witness statements from people known to PZ. The claims are not extraordinary in the manner of bigfoot or UFOs, but commonplace, because sexual assault is a common crime.
So the skeptic may choose not to believe a claim because he is unsatisfied with the existing evidence and wants more corroboration. However it would be unskeptical to dismiss the claims either, without evidence that undermines them.
The correct hyper-skeptical response would be to accept that claims have been made, then neither accept or reject them until further information is forthcoming. However, the hyper-skeptics seem to be jumping straight to denial without any evidence against the claims.
How unskeptical of them.
Troll: Whine about justice.
Translation: I am being called out on my behavior and a large group of people are saying it’s unacceptable and illegal. I know my chances of getting near a female without her being shitfaced are next to nil. My world is collapsing in on itself and I may have to develop some empathy for other humans. I do NOT LIKE!!!
Deep gratitude to all telling their stories here and coming forward in general….and thanks to PZ for getting out front where the flying shit tossing monkeys live….
LynM thanks for that.
Those 7 Steps are copypasta’ed for later use
Jadehawk, my pleasure re: countenance. When you know there’s a word out there but you cannot remember it, it can drive you up a wall. I will not tell you how long it took me to remember how to spell tenet so I could confirm its meaning.
I claim it’s those other languages crowding out my English, then my friend had me check her resume in which she casually mentioned she speaks 6 languages.
I was crushed.
playonwords
All it took was a strong stomach. Thank you!
oh! I forgot one:
6)What all the fuckweasels screaming to”castrate”, “beat the fuck out of”, etc. proven rapists, and the shit about punishment of drunk drivers are making me think is that considering retributive justice to be fair/just and effective scrambles your brain and makes you at best worthless and at worst actively harmful. And that it actually probably is a really inane way of trying to reduce the harm of DUIs by arrest as sole or primary deterrent… because someone too drunk to operate machinery safely is also too drunk to make other sound decisions, and punishing them won’t somehow change that and reduce drunk driving. The bar-culpability models probably work one hell of a lot better. (but again, that only matters if your brain isn’t scrambled by beliefs in favor of retributive justice)
Or stomache.
*Sigh*
How about doing what the rest of us do.
Just grow up and live with your regrets and the shame, and the occasional shuddering horror, you feel when you recall all the stupid, unkind, illegal, graceless and downright rude things you’ve said and done in the past.
(I occasionally wonder how I lived through driving for 10 or so years with no regard to the amount of alcohol consumed. “Everybody” did it. It wasn’t illegal at the time unless you couldn’t walk straight if a cop happened to pull you over.)
I feel like such a slacker. I’ve only now finally set everything up to start learning my 5th (and I only count my extra-rusty latin as language #3 to make myself feel better)
Woke up after a short night’s sleep wondering what’s going on in Shermer’s brain today. I’d like to think that his skepticism is working on his cognitive dissonance, gradually leading him to the conclusion that, maybe, just maybe, his following of the tropes of what manly men do with women when they get a bit of localised fame and status was actually, you know, wrong in some way, perhaps.
Or whether he’s going the Roman Polanski route of working on his family, friends, and professional circle, presenting the rationalisations that he knows will resonate with their prejudices and cognitive biases to convince them that he’s almost blameless, that the women he slept with were sluts, threw themselves at him, he’s only mortal flesh after all (although pretty desirable flesh, obviously), they weren’t as drunk as that, they knew the score, that hack Myers is just jealous of my success and all the chicks I get, it wasn’t rape rape, their consciences the morning after said “No” but their bodies the night before said “Yes, yes, oh, yes!”, et cetera, et bloody cetera.
I’d be overjoyed at the former — Why People Believe Weird Things is a great book, no matter what else the author’s done — but experience tells me to expect the latter.
Jadehawk,
Crushed again. Sheesh. I have English and French and am struggling with Chinese. I do mean struggling. That is going to be it for me unless I get to count pig latin or something.
Best of luck to you with your studies.
@stevecarlos
Are we living in some mythical realm where in whenever a woman calls on the police and courts to handle a rape report, they actually take it seriously and give it a fair hearing? No.
Ok, flipping back and forth between here and the BBC News site saw something vile
BIG TRIGGER WARNING
A wealthy man by the name of Eddie Shah has just passed an opinion about his acquittal for the rape of a minor.
I’m a peaceable man but sometimes I think that extra-judicial mutilation could be a solution …
Read only if you feel strong
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23653172
keep in mind that I grew up bilingual and that English is my 4th language as a result of living in Anglophonia for a decade. I’ve come to my languages quite easily, and besides the rusty latin, this one will be the first language i’ll genuinely have to learn from scratch the old-fashioned way, with books and vocab-lists and shit.
Sorry that was bad but these stories have got me near the end of my tether.
Posted without thinking.
@3096 zhuge – That entire post was brilliant – Thank you.
Jadehawk
Suuuure, nothing to learning 4 languages. Hey, lots of people do it all the time!
It’s a solid accomplishment and good for you!
I have some residual understanding of German since my mother and grandmother spoke it, but my dad didn’t want us to learn German because then we’d be … educated? Anyhow, that was then. I can read Spanish cause it’s so close to French, but Chinese. Man, it’s like I’m on a whole new planet.
Schoolboy French and some (rusty) conversational Japanese, here. I really should get back into the Japanese, but Google translate has made me so lazy.
Yeah, Chrome is a big help for sure. But not so much when you get into a cab and later go shopping. Then having the language is pretty useful.
Caine, Fleur du mal, way back at #2754
That’s something I’ve been wondering. Where the fuck is the FREEZE PEACH brigade’s defense of PZ?
And Caine, I am in complete awe of your tenacity in dealing with the hypersceptics and rape apologists, and not just on this thread.
(Not that I want to diminish the contributions of everyone else, but Caine stands out)
So, still no word on what exactly the Dire Consequences™ to Michael Shermer are or why we should be concerned about that to the exclusion of the consequences to potential rape victims? I wish I was surprised.
The Freeze Peach brigade? They are trying to have this whole post with comments section removed from the internet.
jameswaller @3019
And the moral of this story is – do not engage in argument when you are intellectually ill-equipped for the fight and when you do not have a good enough connection to allow you fully to follow the conversation, to click on links or to avoid making a complete prat of yourself by mouthing tired cliches which have already been debunked several times in this very thread. Is there not a game of some sort on that device you have with you?
_____________
Now, intellectual curiosity time. Why does jameswaller turn up here at relatively long intervals, always upset that his tired drivel does not impress and never, ever having learned anything in the interim?
I return now to Comment 3020.
Delurking again to ask something about the American legal system (and not just American actually).
For the record, here’s my position on the story, comment #1999.
My question is about
I’m slowly going through the comments and am at #2700 currently. I already agree that this statement doesn’t take into account what the victim wants and that’s pretty disgusting.
In France, I (think I) know that above a certain kind of acts, a felony I believe (a délit), the State considers that society is also the victim so whether or not the initial victim wants to press charges, the State can. For having read things like “The People Against …” in the US, I believe there’s something similar but I never realized, from my privileged position, what this would mean for the victim…
I mean, it makes sense to me that if you commit a crime (like rape or murder), the society might want to attack you as if we all were directly the victims… but then again, a person actually suffered and may have very good reasons not to want to press charges. But how could the prosecutor press charges without involving the unwilling victim at some point?
Does anyone has some examples of the State pressing charges against a rapist without involving an unwilling victim?
Back to #2700… and also, I hope I’m not derailing…
I don’t know how all of you can do this, especially those of you with stories to tell.
trigger warning.
I have a couple of things to add to this thread about contact with police and the amount of women that actually report rape vs those that don’t. When I was in my first very cheap home with very cheap locks, I awoke with a man lying on top of me one night. I was too frightened to do anything until I asked him where my cat was. I realized that she was sandwiched between him and I, when I pulled her out I thought she was dead. I’m not sure what came over me, but I went crazy, screaming, slapping, punching, he hit me in the face a couple of times and took off. The police that came that night were very kind, but the detective that showed up a couple of days later unannounced, made continuous comments about the way I was dressed, in my shorts and tee shirt that I finally told him to just go away.
My next contact with police was when I got a flat on the bike I rode coming home from work at eleven thirty at night, a patrol cruiser came up next to me and offered a ride, I declined saying I didn’t have far to go. They said no, that it wasn’t safe and insisted. Before they dropped me off, the driver looked me in the eye in the mirror and asked me what I would think about if they stopped the car and had sex with me right then. I was just nineteen and really naive. Luckily for me the other officer told him to shut the fuck up and take me home. The driver laughed like he was joking. HaHa.
When I was twenty two I actually was raped. I didn’t bother to tell anyone, just went to planned parenthood and got tested for STI’s. Then twelve weeks later I had an abortion.
I became a nurse working in ER’s mostly, out of the twenty or so, women that I have taken care of after a reported rape, only one would make a police report. One out of twenty. I’m pretty sure she didn’t follow through with the horrible process, as I was never called for a deposition.
I’m lucky though I met a man that when I got drunk enough to tell him that I was ready to have sex with him after three years of friendship and dates, he kindly told me no. He said that he wanted the same, but he wanted to know that it was what both of us really wanted, so we would take the subject up when neither of us had been drinking. We’ve been together for twenty-two years, and he puts up with my PTSD most of the time. Reading these comments is hard for me, but my way of coping is cooking, and playing Anne Murray singing Snowbird in my head. So I now have a kitchen full of cakes, and enough food in the fridge for a week.
If you guys only knew how much I’ve worked through my issues by reading your comments, I don’t even have words. I feel quite often that I actually know you. Please keep in mind that you do good things here. Sorry for the length, I don’t think I’ve ever told this all to anyone other than my husband,
*Warning! epic post!*
I have been quiet for a long time now but I would just like to say also to the anonymous woman that I believe you, and to everyone who has been fighting back against the rape apologists: thank you.
I also want to dig deeper into the statistics about false rape allegations. People have already cited the research showing that these make up only 2-8% of all rape allegations. What’s interesting is that recently, a report came out in the UK that actually looked in detail at the false allegations themselves.
It’s also informative to read about some of the case studies.
Going to put a TRIGGER WARNING (rape, domestic violence, child rape) here, just to be safe.
…
…
…
…
…
And another:
And another:
And another:
Source
So those of you whining about false allegations, worrying about what lies in that 2-8%, read that report. Read about how young girls had consensual sex and were then slut-shamed by their family, who decide that it must have been a rape because their daughter isn’t a dirty slut (a.k.a. the ‘To Kill a Mockingbird’ strategy). Read about how women report their husbands for rape and then retract it, stating that it was a lie, but the suspicion remains that they’ve been threatened. Read about how:
Read about how:
Read about how:
Read about how:
You rape apologists seem to think that these 2-8% of women and men (or 42% or whatever other bizarre number you’ve pulled out from the Journal of Fuck All) are conniving wicked sluts who want nothing more than to mercilessly destroy the life of an innocent man. It’s not so clear-cut now, is it? How much overlap do we think there is between the parents accusing their daughters’ boyfriends of rape, and the apologists on this thread who would kill any ‘sick bastard’ who raped a member of their family? How much overlap between them and the abusive husbands who threaten their wives into silence and retraction? Ironic, isn’t it, that the apologists who are so keen to disbelieve and question and doubt, who maintain the rape culture that we all live in, who demand EVIDENCE!!!! MOAR EVIDENCE!!! might actually have contributed to an environment where women feel like falsifying evidence is the only way that they could be believed?
You want to talk about false rape allegations? Let’s talk about them. Your move.
they can’t, actually. which is a reason why “must press charges” or “will be persecuted regardless of victim’s position” are policies that cause rates of reporting to plummet, and especially in the case of domestic violence that’s immensely dangerous: victims won’t risk reporting if it means definitely being re-victimized by a process they can’t control, or a process that will result in their original victimizer becoming even more brutal.
so yeah. assholes that claim that “If you commit a crime you should be prosecuted. Even if the victim does not want to press charges.” are actively causing there to be fewer reports of a whole range of crimes, and so fewer crimes are stopped and prevented. but that’s what obsession with retributive justice gets you: punishment becomes a goal in itself, rather than a means to achieving the goal of preventing/ending crimes.
Jadehawk
Oh I see… damn… I always thought this was a pretty good thing that the State was able to do that and not just in case of murder where obviously the victims cannot defend themselves.
As I said, I only just realized the problems with this in cases of rapes or sexual assaults and domestic violence that you laid out for me above, and that was thanks to reading all the comments here.
This is not the first time you guys helped me realize things so, once again, thank you.
tomfrog,
In Canada, some 30 years ago, police were directed to press charges in cases of domestic violence, even if the victim (usually the wife) said she did not want to proceed. The hope was that the wife was then beyond the pressure of the batterer, because even if the wife said she would not go ahead, the charges did proceed. No point in the accused pressuring her to drop the charges. She couldn’t.
As to cases of sexual assault, charges are brought by the Crown (like the District Attorney in the USA). The Crown may proceed even if the victim doesn’t want to. The cases I was aware of involved victims who were prepared to go ahead, sometimes reluctantly. I recall one case in Canada where the victim refused to testify on the stand and was jailed for contempt of court. The outcry against this was immense and immediate.
Similar cases are on record for the US, the most recent I found in 2012. Basically, when the victim doesn’t want to testify, it is in the hands of the state. Most commonly, a prosecutor will not proceed if the victim is refusing to testify. I think sometimes prosecutors get so focussed on “getting” the accused that they don’t properly assess the damage they are doing to the victim.
I have found several cases that are similar. The state has a lot of power to punish people who do not follow the process, when it orders testimony, for example. A case in Nebraska involved a woman who at aged 7 had alledgely been assaulted by the accused. She was too ashamed to testify.
Most commonly, prosecutors will not proceed with such cases because they are really hard to win. Even the coldest-hearted prosecutor doesn’t want to look like a stone idiot. I don’t know why the Nebraska case went ahead except it appears that the prosecutors believed the accused would repeat the offense against very young girls and wanted to stop him. I don’t mean to say they were right, but they were not acting without reason. They seem to have lost track of the cost to the actual victim they had, as against possible victims in the future. I bet there was little other evidence but the victim’s testimony.
In brief, the state can proceed with charges if it wants to. In practise, it hardly ever does where the victim says xe will not testify.
I was sexually assaulted by a man I worked for when I was a teenager (above the legal age for drinking in my country). It is nice to know that according to the rape apologists, if only he had gotten me drunk first it would have absolved him of some of the blame and transferred it to me.
FUCK YOU SO MUCH.
I was also above the age of consent.
Thanks for sharing your stories, didgen and for your bravery. I don’t know what else to say.
now i wish i hadn’t just skimmed over the readings about evaluation research of the policy Lyn mentions (of police pressing DV charges even when the victim doesn’t want to), because the results were interestingly complex beyond simply the fact that it actually made things worse (it did, which is why in the case I was reading about the policy was changed), but I can’t recall it well enough to retell.
And you too Johnny Oizys
I was curious about that Nebraska case and have tracked it down. She appealed the jail time and tried to invoke witness protection laws, but was ordered to testify. Finally, she agreed to testify.
Shortly after that, the molester pleaded out and got 270 days jail time on a lesser included offense. The victim did not spend more time in jail and the sentence against her was dropped. She never testified.
Jadehawk, I never saw research on the policy as to outcome. I did see cases in which I was involved, usually as the wife’s lawyer, where it helped. That’s straight anecdata, though.
have a balloon, That was really, really hard to read but THANK YOU. That’s some righteous smack down.
Caine, Nigel, fossil fishy, Rutee, and everyone else I’m forgetting because there are just too many of you to name: thank you. PZ: Thank you for hosting. For all that Pharyngula has a reputation for being a rough and tumble place, and no matter what kind of slyme comes oozing in, I consider this a safe space, and it’s because of commenters like you. Your axes are mighty, and I can trust you to have my back. This is one of the first places I’ve been able to say the words, “I was raped.” This place has helped me stop blaming myself for getting drunk that night, not completely yet, but enough that tomorrow will be my first day of therapy to deal with what happened. If it hadn’t been for what I’ve learned here, I really don’t think that step would have happened. At least not this early. There’d probably be a few more years of flashbacks and insomnia and constantly pretending I have a UTI so I have an excuse to run to the bathroom when I feel a crying fit coming on.
To the warriors who have been slogging through the seemingly endless streams of shit, you’re changing my life, and through me you’re changing my SO (one very small example: gendered slurs are now gone from his vocabulary), and he doesn’t even read this blog. Ripple effect, babies. You’ve done real, tangible good.
ButchKitties
I think all of us here are so heartened to read comments such as yours. That you are moving forward is even better news. Glad you are making the step to therapy. It really does help.
All the best to you!
Gen, Uppity Ingrate, you’re welcome. Thank you to PZ and all of the horde for creating the only space I have ever been comfortable sharing that story.
I will repeat that, this is the first time I have ever told anyone about that and I will spare the rape apologists having to think about why that might be, because I will fucking tell you:
I did not want anyone else to know about that because of the shame, the fear of being made fun of, the fear of being blamed myself, and the guilt that some of it felt good physically, not to mention that I still freeze up when thinking about it.
That is also why I am still only sharing my story anonymously.
Don’t you fucking dare tell victims what to do, or how suspicious it is that they didn’t immediately report it to the authorities.
Maybe you’ll take it from a man, if you won’t take it from a woman? (You sexist fuckwits)
For the record, so to speak, I have previously commented here (if very infrequently) under another ‘nym but that was too easy to track back to my real name, so I created this ‘nym in anticipation of gathering the courage to maybe one day share my story. I hope that’s ok.
Gen, Uppity Ingrate
I’m glad it was helpful! It really bugs me when I hear people throwing around the ‘false accusation’ myth, even more so because a lot of the accusations that are classed as ‘false’ by the police have a lot more to them than just ‘woman decides to ruin man’s life’ (always a woman doing it, of course). And yet the only ones we ever hear about in the press are the classic ‘vindictive woman’ stories. (Case in point: I tried to google for that CPS report but really struggled to find it because I was inundated with news articles about women who lie about rape to punish men).
I have also heard (although am not a lawyer so can’t substantiate this) that the process of prosecuting a rape is so traumatic for the victim that sometimes they decide they want to change their mind and stop going ahead with a prosecution. But because the trial is not Victim vs. Offender but Crown vs. Offender, it means that actually the rape victim doesn’t get a say in stopping the trial. But if she admits she was lying, then the prosecution obviously stops. Given that the process can take up to two years, this is an awful long time to have to keep reliving what happened to you, and many people just want closure and to move past it. So they decide to retract the allegation and say that they were lying. In which case, it’s recorded as ‘false’ when in fact it was true…
This is just something I was told by a woman who works as an advocate for rape victims. I would be interested to hear if anyone knows more about whether it’s true. It doesn’t sound unlikely.
Johnny Oizys
It takes so much energy and courage to tell such a narative. I am not surprised it took you time to be able to speak up.
I believe you, and I think you are to be admired for speaking out and letting others who are also hurt, who are still huddled in the dark, see that it is possible to move into the open. I believe this is a sound thing to do and I wish you well.
O.k. you self-satisfied bunch of asshats who know so much about HTML. Let’s see if this is actually “easy peasy”
1, 2, 3, hitting “submit”
Yay!!!
Lyn M: ADM MinTruthiness, thank you!
I can say that in California and Oregon, if a woman comes into the ER and states that she was raped, we contact the police. We collect the rape kit if the woman agrees, we take photos if she agrees, the police encourage her to make a report, we give her literature and cards with phone contacts, we do everything we can to get her to follow through. But as I said before, nearly every one of them as soon as a family member or friend arrives wants to just leave. The police take as much information as the woman will provide, and the woman usually leaves as soon as she possibly can. At which point the police close their notebooks give us the what can you do speech and leave.
I understand exactly how they feel, and why they just want to go away from all of it. I hope some of them were able to follow up, but I know why I couldn’t, I was too ashamed. Nothing anyone could have said to me would have changed that.
Thank you didgen and thank you Johnny for sharing your experiences. I hope you find the tiniest measure of comfort in knowing that I for one believe you. A faint hope that, all things considered, but it’s all I have to offer. Well, that and the reassurance that hearing your voices strengthens my resolve to do everything I can to change the culture that makes people such as yourselves afraid to speak up about what has happened to you.
When I was 19 I touched a drunk girls breast. I feel terrible about it. I sexually assaulted her, though I don’t think she even knew it. I’ve never told anyone. There’s no excuse for it.
I think this is a big reason why so many men react like many of them do here- they aren’t willing or able to realize that they have done things like this too. I think lots of men have done similar things- many don’t even think it’s wrong, most likely. They laugh it off, knowing in the back of their minds that they’re guilty, but to admit this other’s possible guilt then they’d have to admit their own.
Time? Nah, only about 20 years…
(Not taking a stab at you here, just a bit of graveyard humour)
Sorry about my string-of-comments style, I’m a bit shaken up – but also relieved.
Guys,
I’m getting booted out Pharyngula sometimes. I hope no one will be upset if I suddenly disappear and can’t get back for 10 hours or such. Just thought I would warn people while I’m still online.
Johnny,
I think we all feel you should go ahead however you need to. Find what works for you and stick with it. There is no “right” way to find your way forward. But there is your way and I am always bowled over by how people can experience such trauma and yet still be there, functioning and often kind.
Sincerely, best of luck to you as you move forward.
Delurking to say thank you to Jane Doe and PZ for speaking up about this. And thank you to everyone who’s been fighting the rape apologists in this thread.
TW for sexual assault story in following paragraph.
I was molested by a guy in a role playing group when I was a teenager. At the time I was too nervous to speak out and lose the only group of friends I’d had in years (and way to get away from a brother who liked to hit). It took me awhile to figure out how to name the experience, because sexual assault was supposed to be strangers leaping out of bushes with weapons, and that trying to retcon the experience as consensual by dating the asshole for a couple degrading months wasn’t helping. Later I found out that he had done the same thing to another girl previously and no one had said anything when he offered me a room to sleep in when we were all crashing for the night after a marathon gaming session, and later followed me into that room.
(Also, dudebros in the gaming community who whine that because more women won’t come to stranger’s houses to play games until 2am, we must not like gaming because ladybrains=ARGH)
I could have avoided a lot of misery if people stopped tolerating predators in their social circles, or at the minimum received a warning about his previous behavior. Thanks to Jane Doe, women at conferences now have the warning that I didn’t have, and I am thankful for everyone who has been fighting to make these conversations happen in the atheoskeptic community.
@Johnny(#3210): Well using about using a pseudonym. There will be two opinions about that.
1) No it is not right because it means the people who are going to complain about you using a pseudonym, amongst other accusations by them, cannot judge you on trustworthiness. (To which the only correct answer IMNSHO is that they go take a long walk of a short pier)
2) This very thread & the painfully close to the truth post show why anonymity for people, taking the brave action of, talking about their experience for the first time (in a public area) is a good idea.
Indeed! It’s like people feel it would be rude to speak up and say, “Oh, X over there is a bit rapey, so maybe you shouldn’t be alone with xir.” That would be embarassing! Speaking up like that!
It is possible it would be a good change in society if people got over that and actually called people out on their behavior. Even if it when it’s tough to do.
Thanks for speaking out.
Who Cares, I agree with your not-so-humble-opinion obviously and point 2 as well.
I am more concerned with the rules about ‘nym changing, but now I seem to remember that it was mostly a problem if you were being an asshole or sock-puppet. I don’t intend to be either.
Another lurker here, coming in way, way late.
To Jane Doe:
I believe you. Coming forward about your experience, even years later, even anonymously, is an act that requires immense bravery. Thank you.
To PZ, squidly overlord and Eater of Socks:
Thank you. By not keeping silent, you have given people the information they need to stay safe in the future.
Also, thank you for fostering a community like the Horde, who are free and even encouraged to rip rape apologists to shreds.
To all the survivors posting and lurking here:
Thank you for sharing your stories, those of you who did. I am incredibly sorry that any of you had to go through any of that. For what it’s worth, I am one of you.
To Caine, Tony!, the assembled Horde, the Pharyngula house attourneys and everybody bringing the righteous smackdown:
Thank you. You’re a bright spot in an otherwise often dreary world, not just on this thread but everywhere on FTB. I truly appreciate your dedication, erudition and raw, profanity-filled passion.
Aim, welcome.
It is a strange feeling to see another person talk about having been raped. I am filled with admiration that another person has come forward. Then I think, another one! Oh when will it end? When will it be all but unknown? Not hidden, not denied rather not happening!
A friend of mine said I was delusional if I thought it even possible. I think it is something we have to move towards. Dismissing it won’t make things improve. A necessary step is understanding how prevalent sexual assault is. Face it, and stop denying it. Then work to move people forward.
Good heavens, why is it such a crazy idea, that if we work together we can, AT A MINIMUM, reduce the incidences of rape and help those who are trying to have a life after such a thing.
Once again, I believe you, Aim. I believe all those who have had the courage to speak up. I want to thank you and all the others for that. Let the extent of this horror be understood so it may be wiped off the earth.
I have been following this thread on my phone, but haven’t been able to login before I came to a computer.
First of all, I want to thank the original Jane Doe for sharing her story, and the other two Jane Does for speaking out as well. I also want to thank PZ for posting this post. PZ said that there was no way he could choose differently, but we all know that there are all too many people who would have. Especially since we all know too well that there will be some sort of cost for speaking out like this.
To the horde: I am an infrequent commenter these days, but I still feel proud to consider myself part of the horde, and threads like this clearly shows why. You are all incredible brave, supportive, and unwilling to back down when facing injustice. Thank you all for that.
Hi,
Just to note that I’m a monitor, I expect to be online most of the next 8 hours and will check in frequently. I don’t promise to read every comment, so if you want me to carry out any monitorial duties, put the word “monitor” in your comment; I’ll check for that periodically.
I’m sorry I haven’t taken much part in this epic whack-a-rape-apologist session. Salutations to those who have – and I don’t think any of the others will feel slighted if I single out the astonishingly brave and brilliant Caine.
Also, good to see so many lurkers de-lurking to express support.
And of course, grateful thanks once more to PZ, and to the Janes Doe.
Having a bad computer night here. I think I’m going to lose my connection, so I want to say bye for now.
And as for my last comment, I know I may be a dreamer, but what the hell, you don’t go anywhere if you don’t try.
Peace of mind to you all, or at least a better frame of mind.
*Clenched tentacle salute*
1500 years of choirboys ignored by mothers and law enforcement says you have a point.
But with circumstantial evidence, you have to look at the credibility of the source. Choirboy v Priest? One is a professional liar. He said, She said? It shouldn’t need to be said that she could be a lot more credible if she wasn’t advertising her values on a cosmetic billboard saying, “I value the utility in corrupting perception with what is not true to suit my perceived interests at the expense of those deceived.”
Another infrequent commenter logging in to say thank you and admiration to all the women who have told their experiences of rape culture in this thread. This is what the rape apologists want to silence of course, they hate it when women tell the truth about rape culture and men’s behaviour. It is why they insist that women’s testimony must not count, and why there can never be enough evidence for them.
Jonny Vincent, I am not sure what you’re trying to say in your comment #3231. It seems like a complete non sequitur to me.
Not at all. The reason is that I don’t act in a way that makes such an accusation at all credible. For example, I don’t ply women with alcohol until they’re too drunk to know which way is up and then take them home to have sex with them.
I’ve touched on this before, but that was a few pages ago, so I’ll repeat the idea: If you’re not a rapist, then don’t have sex with women who are drunk. Simple, easily applied rule, with several effects:
1) You don’t have to worry about false rape accusations (not that they’re common enough to worry about anyway).
2) Women don’t have to feel cautious around you. You’ve defeated Schroedinger’s rapist by earning the trust, rather than simply demanding that people should trust you.
3) Most importantly, it makes the rapists stand out like a sore thumb. If the good guys stop doing this, the bad guys don’t have any cover. It will reduce the number of rapes. It will make cases against rapists easier to prosecute.
So, with that in mind, I’m quite happy to support a standard where anyone seen plying a person with drinks, in the manner described in the addendum to the OP, is automatically assumed to be a rapist and socially (not legally, I hasten to point out, even though I know you’ll ignore it) treated as a rapist.
This approach will take away one of the documented prime tactics of rapists and it’ll only be a minor inconvenience to anyone else. Anyone with a sense of decency should be able to agree with this.
(Note: The use of male gender for the rapist and female for the victim is not meant to imply that all men are rapists, that rapists are always men or that men can’t be victims. I know that this is probably obvious to everyone and that the dipshit brigade will probably still make the accusation, but I put this disclaimer here so that they’ll look even dumber when they do.)
Sounds like pretty standard MRA drivel to me. It’s the idea that women who, say wear make-up and a push-up bra are engaging in “false advertising” in order to somehow victimise the poor precious oppressed men. And if in reality she has slightly saggy tits and actual human skin (blemishes ! body hair !) this will not do at all, as men are entitled to perfect peaches and cream and perkiness, and the boners that ensue. Whenever, wherever as their natural born right.
This has the wafting presence of “bitchez be lyin'” all over it. Please tell me it’s snark and you’re not really suggesting that advertisements for cosmetics to make a woman suit a standard of beauty imposed by marketing firms discredits any rape allegations by her. Otherwise, holy shit.
Jonny appears to be saying that women are less credible as witnesses because they’re willing to appear in cosmetic advertising. Maybe. It’s not coherent enough to make a call really.
Also, it would be an incredibly misandrist thing to suggest that men are so swayed by the “corrupted perception” so as to be helpless and non-autonomous with their regard for the woman in question, since that would put the onus on the man to not be swayed by such vexing vixens… If that’s what you’re arguing for, then I resent that belittling of men.
Oh.yeah and the choirboy and Mothers stuff is all part of the attempt to deflect and minimise the reality of rape culture …. “but women do it toooooo”. Like that somehow counteracts or neutralises what is being talked about by (female) rape victims.
Johnny boy, Johnny boy… *shakes head*
If only you were at least a bit amusing.
If you don’t like women wearing makeup, get the world at large to stop treating us like shit when we don’t. I mean, it’d still be an individual’s choice, but I imagine a lot more women would be choosing it.
Also, since I apparently forgot to mention it, wearing makeup does not make a source less trustworthy. This hsouldn’t need to be said, but some men are just that big a set of douchebags.
Another late lurker, wanting to voice my support for Jane Doe. I believe you. I hope you still feel part of our community, as opposed to their community.
Props to the horde; I fought with you back in the days of the ‘listen to the women’ thread. Your stamina may not be inexhaustible but it’s pretty damn impressive.
And – simply – thanks to PZ for posting this. I see you as an Ent, pulling down the supports for the dam and letting the waters pour through. May the orcs be buried beneath the flood.
[I used to post under a different name in the SB days but it was too searchable. I hope PZ won’t consider this a morph/sockpuppet – I’ll stick with this nym in future as it is eminently nonsearchable.]
You know what? I’m withdrawing my caution. Jonny is either making a sweeping statement condemning all women because some appear in advertising, or he’s condemning all women because some wear makeup, or he’s condemning one particular woman because….?
Regardless, it’s weapons grade misogynistic idiocy slathered on with the broadest of brushes and delicately frosted with the barest of coherence.
FossilFishy,
Johnny is trying to be smart and witty in his dismissal of women’s reports of harassment. Johnny should crawl back under his rock and shut the fuck up.
Jonny Vincent:
Admittedly it’s garbled, but I think what Jonny Vincent is trying to say is that if a woman conforms to social pressures by applying cosmetics to enhance her sexual attractiveness, then us poor helpless menz just can’t help raping her, ill-equiped by evolution as we are to control our animal urges. It’s clearly the woman’s fault for falsely advertising that they wanted sex from whatever male was nearest at the time. Therefore she can’t be trusted as a witness to her own rape. Or something. Did I get that right, Jonny Vincent?
Keep up the good fight hordelings. I’ve read all 3244 posts and now its time for me to go to bed. Hopefully tomorrow won’t bring another 1000 posts, I have work to do.
G’night
Lyn M,
thank you. It says a lot about the commentariat here that lurkers like me are comfortable jumping in – even in the face of MRA scumbubbles trying everything they can to derail and silence.
Jonny Vincent:
…wha? Okay, let me see if I parsed that correctly. Your’e saying that:
1) A female rape victim’s credibility should be judged on whether or not she chooses to wear makeup?
2) Which is an inherently deceptive practice designed to fool men into thinking women are more desireable than they actually are?
3) And this is somehow actively harmful to men?
If that is what you were actually trying to say, you’re a sad excuse for a troll.
If that isn’t what you were trying to say, you’ve succeeded in confusing the hell out of me and also in making yourself look like a sorry excuse for a troll.
Hardly at all, actually. You see, I don’t have any pattern of behaviour that might make such an accusation credible – so it probably wouldn’t be credible to anyone who knows me at all well in meatspace, even if they had the correct default of believing those who say they have been raped. Even those who only know me here (my main online hangout) would, I think, have to believe that I’ve been unusually good in covering up my rapey tendencies over thousands of comments – although I should certainly not feel wronged if they did believe my accuser. It is, unfortunately, more likely that I could have been successfully hiding those tendencies, rape someone, and get away with it, than that I’ll suffer serious damage from a false accusation.
Jonny Vincent:
No, it shouldn’t need to be said. Because it’s stupid.
By that standard, the only way a person could be thoroughly credible is if they went around fully naked shouting “OH, BY THE WAY, MY KIDNEYS ARE A LITTLE INEFFICIENT AND I FART A LOT”. You try that in a courtroom and tell us how it works out, okay?
If that’s Jonny’s best attempt at smart and witty I can’t imagine hir being able to figure out how to work a rock.
Now that I’m awake enough: I have read the entirety of this thread (foregoing, for this duty, my usual readings) and am in awe of the fortitude and capabilities of several commenters here, which I’ve never held to any lofty standard (due to the evidence already of their capabilities), but would have exceeded even the highest I’d have placed upon them. If one person deserves singled out for praise it is Caine, Fleur de Mal. There are many others who’ve lent their support, and they all deserve Mollys if they were still being given, Caine, though deserves about five. Thank you, one and all.
The stories which have been shared about harsh or traumatic experiences concerning the treatment of rape or sexual assault survivors by the authorities really has re-solidified my contempt for the culture which allows it. I know if the time comes to show my belief in someone who reports sexual assault I will not hesitate to do so – I’ve had my mother tell me stories about the disbelief she encountered with her experiences during her childhood and in the armed services which made me aware and compassionate toward these issues, but the pervasiveness of it is demanding me to actually act and say to her that I believe her. I don’t know that she’s ever heard that. She’s heard “I’m so sorry.” at the best of the spectrum and gods know what else at the other end.
The apologists for rape-culture are indeed losing, they’re just losing loudly most of the time. So that gives me hope and should give others hope.
Thank you PZ for not walking by.
As much as I admire and respect you PZ, I believe you should have smothered that grenade and not thrown it. Character assassination by blog is not cool.
Especially when you present no evidence to back it up. As a skeptic, you should already know that.
I’m sorry that I’ve had to sign up to post this.
infiniteartsupplies
At least we have something in common.
Y’know, I think Jonny Vincent out-stinks the average skunk by several orders of magnitude. And the skunk only lets rip in self-defense.
@3253 infiniteartsupplies
As are we all.
Yet another bravehero come to remind us that a woman’s testimony is not evidence.
Warning people about someone who multiple people have said assaulted them is not character assassination by any stretch of the imagination.
You seem unable to read his post. He actually provided several pieces of evidence (you know, the statements of the 3 Jane Does). What’s more, several other people on the internet has spoken out, and confirmed that they had heard similar stories.
And we’re off again.
How about you read the thread infiniteartsupplies, you might learn just why your statement is idiotic. But then this:
shows that either you have such poor comprehension skills, or you are so deficient in compassion, or both, that any understanding would elude you anyway.
What needs to be changed on a gut level is the ingrained idea that the default setting for a woman is “consent.” That is, unless a woman says no, her default setting is yes. That’s where a lot of the problem begins.
Instead of “a woman is available for sex unless she says no,” how about “a woman is NOT available for sex unless she says yes.”
My two cents.
Cue the next idiot:
infiniteartsupplies:
infiniteartsupplies, that was wasted effort, you didn’t have to sign up to post that idiocy because dozens of other idiots have already posted it earlier in the thread, and the full idiocy of the remark has been exhaustively analysed on every single occasion. It’s good of you to apologise in advance, but why were you so stupid as to think that the point has any validity? Why did you think that it might not have been addressed already in the previous 3000+ posts? And why did you not first check that it had not already been answered? All you’ve achieved is to advertise how much of a clueless idiot you are.
Fuck, it’s midnight and I really have to be useful tomorrow. I’m often annoyed at the whole timezone thing, but right now it makes me angry that I can’t hold up my end of the fight.
Give ’em hell Hoard.
At least we can presume that infiniteartsupplies isn’t one of those fools who runs around complaining about having freeze peach taken away. S/he didn’t actually, explicitly, say that PZ has no right to say whatever he likes in public.
That’d be Horde. Shit, really is time for bed.
Who’s character is being assassinated and why? Typical MRA fuckwit. All opinion, not one iota of evidence. Losers all.
Gee, you are not skeptic, just a mouthy loser. Evidence was presented as eyewitness/victim testamony and corroborated by multiple people.
If you had bothered to read the OP. There is a pattern of abuse by MS. Your problem loser is that you erroneously think women lie, and their word is worthless. Sorry, your word is worthless without evidence to refute the prior evidence, and it needs to be more than “I don’t believe it”. Skepticism, U R doing it wrong.
@FossilFishy
Not to worry, the next shift is here. Sleep tight.
A direct report from the victim is evidence. He quoted her communication fully. There isn’t any other “evidence” to be had. Revealing her name would expose her to further victimization without adding to our knowledge anything useful. I can only conclude that the chorus asking for her to be “outed” want to discredit her, or persecute her.
PZ – thank you so much. I’m sorry this is ballooning so much for you, and I know you knew it would happen but did the right thing anyway, so just know that there are dozens and dozens of us who are behind you in support and thanks.
screechymonkey at 3015 is another good bookmark to illustrate the absurdity of these “but go to the police or it’s nothing” claims.
The other thing that gets to me with the “tell me x details so I can decide whether to believe you” bit – they don’t need your pity. They don’t need anything from you. You are not important in this. That’s what it is – people desperately trying to make themselves the center of it, trying to control the narrative based on what they want and whether their seemingly all-important blessing will be given to the account. “Well, I won’t believe it unless…” is assuming that your support is the central feature to the entirety of the issue. If you don’t believe it, fine. Don’t. Because the victim doesn’t need you to validate reality for them. Your opinion literally does not matter.
Cheers LykeX.
One last thought before I go and attempt REM*:
What the fuck is with these ‘skeptics’ who don’t read the thread before dropping their turds? Are they afraid of education, or is it just that reading is too damn hard?
*It’s the ennnnd of day as I know it… and I feel supine.
Oh, and i just went back to the main page, saw the new thread, and that screechymonkey said the exact same thing I just did but several hours before me. Oops. Great minds and all that.
And apropos of nothing, todays Google doodle here in Australia is a lovely illustration of Schrodinger’s cat to celebrate his 126th birthday. A tiny bit of beauty and joy at the end of a difficult day.
@ circa 400’s Parse – 9th August 2013 at 9:59 am (UTC -5) :
That sums up exactly how I feel and what I want to say here too.
For whatever little it may be worth :
I believe the women here when they tell what happened to them.
I think PZ Myers has done the right thing and made the right decision.
I think the rape apologists and enablers and excusers here need to seriously think about what they are apologising for, excusing and enabling – and cease doing so immediately.
I’m threadrupt by about 1,000 posts, but I had to stop lurking here and support the Janes Doe who’ve come forward with their stories. I admire the courage and strength it took for you to speak out. I believe you.
PZ, I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you that you’ve done the right thing. The inanity of the arguments against it in this thread and from the usual suspects should be enough for you to notice that there are no good arguments against publishing those messages.
I don’t think I could even begin to list the nyms of the Hordelings who are changing the world one keystroke at a time. You folk are the perfect antidote to the smug privileged clueless types who think one undergrad course apiece in math, philosophy, and computer science teach all there is to know about thinking critically.
Tom Foss @ 2407
As an alternative, I’d like to propose “wit shunt” both for the homophony and because it describes the shuntwits who make these sorts of spurious comparisons.
When the species has reached the point of screaming insanity it has here – where people are so insane they cannot understand the meaning of words and actions and motives – The End cannot be far away.
If you conceal blemishes, your intent is to deceive viewers into perceiving you to be more attractive than you are in reality. All deceit is malicious, by definition. This is not personal opinion, those of you with mothers who raped their minds insane with lies. To deceive is antisocial, you filthy vermin. Your mother lied to you. I don’t make the rules. These are The Rules of Social Conduct. To deceive is antisocial.
Lying with the intent to deceive is a malicious, hostile, non-biological, sociopathic act. That it’s normal has no relevance to the motive driving the action nor is it relevant to the outcome (disadvantage, deception, injury, illness, death). We fight wars for profit and lies on this sociopathic, cannibalistic, psychotic planet. Just because war is normal doesn’t mean your combative mother who needed to blind her children with her need for unconditional love was sane.
Anyone who imagines that cosmetics isn’t malicious deception intended to corrupt perception of reality is screaming, batshit insane. The End is near for you amoral rats.
infiniteartsupplies, your next “contribution” here will be important. As it stands, you just left a steaming turd in middle of a 3200+ message thread without providing any evidence that you have read even one other comment or really understand why PZ did what he did and why. That means we are going to begin hurling a lot of invective at you, deservedly.
Now, before getting your fee-fees hurt and leaving a second message telling the rude ones of us how mean we are, I’m going to suggest that you return to the first page of comments and begin reading. Seriously, read all the comments. Pay attention. Read for understanding. Try hard to understand why your first comment displeases us and why it is getting a nasty response.
When you’re done reading all the comments — I’m thinking it will take you good six-plus hours to get through everything — come back to the message box and leave your second message. If you are really paying attention, I trust your second message will be something a little more substantive, more astute, more nuanced, more aware. Until then, you honestly have nothing to add to this conversation.
If you decide to ignore this advice and instead leave a whiny message that demonstrates your lack of understanding, be prepared for a lot of people who have been paying close attention to relentlessly and in detail explain what a tremendous asshole you are while thoroughly dismantling your claims.
Not all deceit is malicious.
For example, a friend has a haircut that she really *really* likes. I may not care for it, but I tell her it looks cute. I have deceived her about my real feelings, but I have made her even happier about something she is already happy about.
I also can’t help but laugh that you feel cosmetics are the ultimate evil in the world. What a sad, sad little person you are.
@ 3274
Well that settles that…
Anyone who imagines that clothes isn’t malicious deception intended to corrupt perception of reality is screaming, [irrational – ableism edited out].
I don’t know about you, but I read his post as “I slept with someone that was pretty, but she was really ugly ewewewew get the cooties off”
Here is another graphic…. I had to do something after reading this morning.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/100116073@N03/9487431384/
Ooo… other things to add to the list of ‘malicious deception’-
Toothbrushes and toothpaste and breath mints- Your mouth doesn’t actually smell like that!
Vaccines and medicine in general- You’re healthier than you otherwise would be (in fact, without medicine I’d be *dead* so it’s the ultimate deception!)
Education – You know a lot more than you would naturally!
Hairbrushes and haircuts- That smooth hair is a LIE!
No, no, no, I must, MUST go to bed, but 3274 is just too funny.
Uhm, Jonny? You know the Egyptians had makeup over 5000 years ago right? Yup, the end in nigh!
Well, that’s taking this thread in an interesting direction. Please, Johnny, tell us more signs of the Apocalypse.
At the risk of stretching the metaphor beyond the breaking point, I believe the correct thing to do with a live grenade is to throw it toward the enemy.
As a monitor, I’ve reported Jonny Vincent’s spewing of his particularly bizarre version of woman-hating to PZ.
I think I’ll just forgo my shower for the next couple of days. It’s going to be about 35°C in shade on average, but I really wouldn’t want to deceive anyone with my lack of stinking to high heaven.
NB. Specifically that quote was from #483 Parse.
Hoo, boy, Jonny, I think you have serious mother issues.
And in some ways they brought it to more extremes than modern makeups. Atropine to fake interest.
If Jonny and infiniteartsupplies are any indication I think the that scooping implement is just shy of scrapping up splinters.
@Jonny Vincent
Non-biological? What does that mean? Lying to others is about as natural as it comes. There’s hardly an organism on the planet that doesn’t do it in one way or another. Ever heard of camouflage? Or mimicry?
So, what exactly do you mean by non-biological?
Deception? Teh End Is Nigh! Reminds me of this :
Cosmetics are teh ebbil?!? WTF?
LykeX, you are being maliciously deceptive by not being utterly gullible and believing everything vincent says just as a young child would!
In fact, growing up is also a deception!
*reads post #3274*
*mouth agape*
I think this thread just jumped the shark.
I’ve heard lots of unusual conspiracy theories in my time, but I think this is the first time someone has announced that makeup is evil. :/
(Perhaps the cosmetics companies are also part of a conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids.)
Jonny Vincent,
That’s toxic hostility if I’ve ever seen it. You should seek help controlling it if you can’t control it yourself. Seriously, you could hurt someone, and you’re already hurting yourself.
http://www.apa.org/topics/anger/index.aspx
I know, I’m sorry.
Or am I? Haha! You’ll never know now. The entire structure of society unravels from my deceit. The apocalypse is coming and it’s wearing LIPSTICK!
I love blackberries! They grow in the hedges here in autumn.
NelC @3288, yeah, that’s what I thought, too. Freud could have earned his doctorate with Jonny’s post.
Oops, disregard my last comment. I meant to post it in the [Lounge].
@3301 Walton
Funnily enough it didn’t even look that out of place to me given the turn this thread has taken in the last few minutes.
[This is way the fuck longer than I initially intended, but it’s going to be posted at this ugly fucking point.]
I’ve been mostly lurking on the Sci/Ftb blogospheres for the last few years, but this newest revelation/issue/schism/drama has (temporarily?) brought me out of the shadows. I’ll _not_ comment here on the OP, since obviously everything from either “side” has already been said >9000 times for Entire Infinite Eternitiez™ — and also to hide potential biases on it, so’s not to draw irrelevant ire and false conclusions from either “side”. (No, seriously, don’t distract and/or waste your fucking time trying to compartmentalize me. Withhold the bullshit and fucking read.)
After reading through the comments, I’ve had a similar “spiking [of] blood pressure” reaction to them as “Caine, Fleur du mal” has mentioned. However, _in_addition_ to what potentially happened/could happen/will happen again, mine in this case is actually in reference to Caine’s own ineptitude that brings me back into the light(/sewer?). She’s not the only one, so’s y’know, just the worst yet seen on this.
(Nope, still no biases revealed about the OP, so don’t hastily & mistakenly make an ass of yourself b/c I had the fucking gall to call out a current regular on some shit — which I’ve already seen several times in this thread result in apologies betwixt the Horde (you included, Caine).)
However #2, I read through my own ancient comment history, so’s not to be a goddamn hypocrite, before commenting. And I see that I’ve on occasion been just as mean and rash and insulting and irrational and immature and unconcerned and (almost) as much an asshole as you when facing those lacking, Caine. (And don’t fucking weasel out by “tone-trolling” me. Face your fucking flaws.) Though still on occasion overly insensitive to obtuse offenders, I’ve certainly realized my lack of understanding on this particular issue over the years, and I’ve accounted for it thanks to people here and elsewhere who’ve chosen to educate rather than exterminate. More to learn I no doubt have, as we all do.
Anyways, Caine, you’ve shown yourself to be an absolute _ass_, and you’re not helping this “debate” or this “movement” advance through this issue with your self-serving vitriol – and neither is the ego-stroking from others that’s accompanying it. Maybe you just don’t give a shit about education, but some of us out there fucking do. If we truly want to enlighten the ignorant/stupid/hateful who just don’t get what it’s like to experience life as a female on planet Earth (or in ‘Murika, at the very least), then putting _inquirers_ on the same level as _actual_fucking_rapists_ and telling them to go off themselves [yes, asshat, you and others have fucking implied that in a few shit comments] for expressing an iota of doubt or just asking a simple fucking question is _probably_ not going to work. Ya’fuckin’think? If you’re _really_and_truly_ sick of hearing their repetition and feel they ignore your
assistancebelittlement — whilst you consistently repeat your own trite comments and ignore their inquiries — then fucking hit Alt+F4 and go the fuck away. You’re not fucking helping, and nobody is forcing you to stay on the webz. I’ve seen a lot of harsh responses and all-around assholery here over the years, but your spite reaches new depths.Fwiw, you actually _did_ make some progress by posting those links that prime the ignorant on these issues. And, no, I’m not fucking patronizing you — that list was well fucking needed for these people, and few others seemed to give a flying fuck about providing a starting path like that. But you’d do well to re-read them yourself, Caine, as I can’t help but seriously doubt you’ve made it through (forgotten?) the advice given in the “Don’t Be That Guy” livejournal (especially section 5), for starters. Not calling you a serial liar (as is common here, meknows); just saying don’t be a fucking hypocrite by not practicing what you angrily preach/link to.
Ok, fuck it; that’s it for now. Caine, if you still just don’t give a shit, go ahead and “note my concern” and continue to uselessly flame on. (Hell, _willfully_ ignore everything I just said and swing. I trained here; I can handle some fucking nonsense.) But I’d flip a random NAND gate that you’re more rational and educated than most of your crude comments thus far attest, amirite? You and more than a few others here require some fucking reflection on how this is working out, regardless. Your collective tenacity doesn’t necessarily equal progress.
Oh no, it’s a classic rant of super-religious circles. He just forgot to call all women who wear it “jezebels”.
Dear Horde, I realized something reading through these comments last night and especially reading Caine’s comments about her work as a rape victim advocate. There is no one I’d rather have standing with me in the aftermath, if something like this ever happened to me, than some of you. The one person from meat space that I’d trust to the same degree is also a Pharyngula-reader. (That is not an indictment of the rest of my friends/family, just a note on how rape culture destroys some bonds of trust/safety networks or prevents them from forming at all.)
Earlier this year, I had to do my best to offer comfort to someone who had been raped and disbelieved, and then entered a cycle of self-blame and self-harm. This sounds cheesy, but I felt you were there with me in a way,* as I tried to find the right words. If my words helped at all, if at least they didn’t inflict more harm, it was thanks to this space, to PZ and to you.
So, thank you and keep fighting this battle. It’s not just about beating down some trolls; it’s about giving people tools to face the uglier & probably more uphill battles in meat space. (I say “uglier” and “more uphill” thinking of the fact that these people or others with similar views actually hold power over vulnerable people in meat space & fighting against them can feel mighty lonely at times.)
*Yes, kinda like Harry Potter’s parents, but less dead.
Well you can certainly produce plenty, cupcake. I don’t think you’re fooling anyone.
b0nezbrigade, your anti-Caine rant is immediately made moot by the dozen or so folks — in this thread alone — who have credited Caine for doing exactly what you deny she has done. She makes a difference. You? Not so much.
Y’know, that was more than harsh on my part. I realize that Caine and others have recounted their awful experiences in a public forum, and that they have to deal with this shit until. I really do fucking realize and empathize with all of that. What I wrote was overdue and fucking necessary, goddamnit. And if I also get banned for daring to challenge the sanctimonious douchebaggery of self-appointed caretakers of the Hivemind, so fucking be it. I’ve respected and defended this place and its creator since that day long ago I saw BA link to something absolutely enlightening on it.
This was once the place for edification. But it’s becoming random fucking assholes on the Internet at this point.
b0nezbrigade, I will save Caine the bother of informing you that your concern is noted.
Now kindly fuck off. There’s a good chap.
Do the many people who have thanked Caine in here for her efforts mean nothing to you? Too fucking bad. What you called “vitriol” is fucking righteous anger.
b0nezbrigade,
If you have nothing to say about the topic, take your concerns to the Thunderdome (link).
Thank you ever so much.
Bye, bye.
(this focus on Caine makes me a bit wary of a potential creep, but I’m for now excusing it as a side effect of a lot of lurkers thanking Caine specifically)
Dear Bonez. Your concern is noted. However, you do appear to be in the vast minority as quite a few lurkers have popped up and thanked not only PZ and the Jane Does, but also Caine.
I appreciate all that Caine has done.
So your attempt at tone trolling is recognised, and dismissed.
@Nick Gotts,
Thanks for proving my point that you aren’t paying attention, (was it Mr Cupcake?).
@tonyinbatavia,
As Caine has said, read the fucking post. She has made a difference. She’s also fucked up and had her ego stroked. Again, as she likes to say, go read the fucking comments!
b0nezbrigade, are we really going to have to re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-rehash the whole “demanding civility silences the marginalized” thing again?!
If you don’t like harsh delivery, that’s your prerogative (though I admit I find it rather hypocritical of you – rage for me but not for thee, apparently). What is not your prerogative is demanding that every single person on the interwebs – including those who happen to be making a serious difference for the better – comport themselves in a way that suits you. It was wrong when Finke did it, and it’s wrong here.
Your hate-fest wasn’t worth more than the most cursory glance. Just fuck off, there’s a good troll.
@myeck waters,
Thanks, chap! W-wait, should I fuck off or respond to your Q? Make up your mind, mate.
@Beatrice,
No thanks for incorrect “creep” diagnosis. She was just the most vocal of the bunch.
@rowanvt,
Thanks for noting my concern, troll.
Read ’em. Every last one. But when you say about Caine “you’re not helping this ‘debate’ or this ‘movement’ advance through this issue with your self-serving vitriol,” you are sadly fucking mistaken. If you read all the comments yourself, it’s clear you didn’t understand them. Caine’s an asset; you’re an asshole.
b0nezbrigade,
Take your concerns to the fucking Thunderdome, since you have nothing to say on the topic!
b0nezbrigade – here’s the thing. Every time a thread like this starts, every time the first person comes in asking the stupid questions we’ve heard a million times before, those questions get answered. Every. Fucking. Time. And they get answered the second time, and the third time, and often the fourth time. In every single thread where it comes up. The frustration and dismissal come in when people come in after that asking the same damned questions after they have been answered multiple times in that same thread. Not in some thread from months ago and far away, that same thread. Usually on the same page, even. It is not too much to say that someone who really wants an answer should spend 5 minutes doing a “find on page” for their keywords and get to the answer that way, rather than demanding that someone else who already spent the time answering it spend another 10 minutes answering it again. If someone refuses to even do a single-page search for their topic (much less read all the comments before posting), then why should anyone else waste their time trying to cater to that person’s demands?
@ischemgeek,
No, you aren’t going to have to “re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-rehash” anything. Reading what I fucking wrote and trying to understand what’s fucked up about this staying in this shit stasis would be a good start, though.
Bonez, your post appears to condense down to this:
We are terrible people for not wanting to answer the 900th repetition of a question on this thread alone. And being frustrated with people makes us bad people, even though you have been frustrated as well, but not to the extent that we get, so that’s why we are bad people.
We should also, when frustrated at the repetition, instead of combating it and the horrible things that are often part of it, we should tra-la-la somewhere else and let it sit there like a steaming pile of shit in the middle of the floor. Because…. reasons?
@tonyinbatavia,
Obviously you didn’t read my entire comment, as I fucking said I read the goddamn comments. Nobody should be on a pedestal, asshole, and PZ kindly pointed that out to you when he showed that Shermer & Radford are not to be seen as such.
@Beatrice,
Likewise!
I did read what you wrote, and I find it wanting.
If you you dealt with a wave of creationist douchenozzles going on for 3300+ comments about “If there humans came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys,” would you be able to maintain serene patience? I doubt it. How dare you demand that of someone else, when the topic under discussion is something a helluvalot more important than whether humans came from monkeys and is related to personally traumatic experiences.
Fuck off, you self-important asshat.
@carlie & rowanvt,
Not too sure either of you even read my fucking comment, but anyways, that’s why I didn’t even touch the OP topic — b/c I KNOW it’s been touched, and a bazillion times. My comment was on an obvious failure to affect change.
I think it goes further than that. For all too many, the default is that it doesn’t really matter what the woman says. If a man wants it, he has the right to take it. And so when a woman cries rape or assault or harassment, it’s the man who’s the victim.
That is the attitude we’re fighting (and for some of us it’s at least partially an internal fight).
@ischemgeek,
Motherfucker, I’ve been on those threads, and I’ve maintained patience. If you (or anyone) can’t maintain patience, then do what I said and Alt+F4.
And don’t move the goalposts to creationism, you disingenuous, asshat. (see, I can be a jerk, too)
b0nezbrigade
Now that you mention it, yes.
I must commend you on your selfawareness. So rare too see.
And mine was that nobody has the obligation to try to or even care about affecting change in people who claim to want to change, but only on their terms and if everyone caters directly to them to the point of not even being willing to go look at where their questions have been answered.
@Sili,
*Zing*
MONITOR alert. (Nick?)
No, I don’t have any fucking patience left.
I’m not moving the goalpost, asshole, I’m drawing an analogy. If you’re going to make accusations, at least use the right one.
So hop to it. Who’s stopping you?
The problem is that you think explaining things nicely to assholes is more important that pushing back against the bullshit, even after the people who have posted in this thread about how being set right, firmly, not with kid’s gloves, helped them understand the issues better.
Then you top it off by not following through on your own ideas, but rather sitting back and criticizing others for not doing it the way you think it should be done. You think your way works better? Show it.
Personally, the first step I remember was a Schroedinger’s rapist type discussion (on a blog somewhere). I hadn’t thought about it and felt vaguely uncomfortable with the idea that I should be considered a potential rapist. And if we had this standard, how do we even talk to each other? It seemed completely unreasonable to me.
There was a person in the comments raising pretty much the exact concerns I had and he was slapped down hard. It was unsettling at first, but it made me think twice. Specifically, it made me stop and think about it from the woman’s point of view, rather than my own.
*Click*
Suddenly it all made sense. Not only did I see why the argument was correct, I also understood why the commenter had gotten such a hard response. Finally, it meant that I didn’t feel bad about the “potential rapist” bit, because I realized that this isn’t about me at all. I don’t figure into this. It’s about keeping women safe from predators.
I don’t know where this idea comes from that men are so sensitive that we can’t say things clearly and, yes, sometimes offensively (oddly enough held by people who often also have machismo poisoning). Suck it up guys. Women have had to put up with far worse for far longer. If you think your feelings matter the tiniest little bit in this, then you’ve still got a long way to go.
Stop demanding that victims change their behavior to suit the preferences of the privileged and clueless. If you personally want to take a more conciliatory approach, that’s fine. Don’t demand that everybody else do the same. It’s a demonstrable fact that your approach is not the only possible way to effect change.
Finally, if anybody truly cares and wants answers; if they’re not just trying to derail, belittle and silence; then the answers are there. They’re right there back in this thread. Just go through and read.
I don’t know why you think we need to repeat the same stuff over and over to each new person. The honest people can just go back and read.
Well, that was long. I hope it makes half as much sense as I think.
@carlie,
I’ve seen far too many first posts over the years here ass-hammered w/o any thought or input. Sure, when obtuseness rears, it’s time to slam; but in this very fucking thread I see comments slammed by nothing other than allegedly tired & pissed off people who ironically throw the word lazy around like a fucking hydrogen molecule. At least fucking try, or let someone who can, is what I say.
So bonezewhatevers logic goes like this;
A.) Post a long ranty personal attack on a thread.
B.) Be sure to ignore the OP and do not read the 3000+ comments
C.) Up the hyopocrisy by complaining about random fucking assholes while modeling perfect RFA behavior.
D.) ?????????
Yeah,, fuck off, dont let the door hit you, etc, etc
@ischemgeek,
No, asshole, you did move the goalposts — to a completely different and unreleated realm. This has happened constantly on here by the MRA crowd, and they are rightly hammered. You are not immune, ischemgeek. Give me a good analogy, or give up.
… whaaa? How the fuck is drawing an analogy moving the goalposts? I’m gonna second the call for a monitor here. It’s fairly obvious you’re being disingenuous and are just here to stir shit up. We deal with folks like you pretty often at a forum I moderate, and if you’ve seen one troll, you’ve seen ’em all.
@What a Maroon, el papa ateo / 3324:
I agree with this assessment, although I do think there’s an extra level added for women of all ages that other victims don’t seem to have to bear (at least not to the same degree).
An example of what I mean is with the catholic church. The abusers themselves and their supporters try to make the victim the source, i.e., “wanted it,” “encouraged it,” participated in it,” but excluding that example, male rape victims are not usually seen as complicit in their own rape. Female victims usually are, even if they are children.
That is what I meant about the default consent setting for women.
@Tethys,
Nice.
A) Immaturely rework my nym.
B) Be sure to not even fucking read my comment where I stated that I read said comments.
C) Ignore the part of my comments where I said I could be overly harsh.
D) ??????
This is the Internet, bro. If you can’t handle it, you should go to a “safer” website (AOL?) or just turn off your computer. You’ve added nothing.
Your concern is noted.
@ the indefinable b0nezbrigade, oh yes, section 5 of Don’t Be That Guy. Let’s see what it says:
– as related to Caine, who is not that guy:
– as related to the people she was scolding:
– as related to bystanders who really, really want to help (say, you):
Also, being charitable to you, you meant to use those passages from section 5 that deal with knee-jerk reactions to criticism stemming from privilege and with the need to understand that your privileged perspective 33is not the only valid one. Don’t Be That Guy is a text written for allies whose privilege blinds them to the perspectives of the minorities they want to help. Minorities, by and large, *do* know the privileged perspective. They fucking live with it every day. You missed the whole point of the text if you didn’t get that. Were you trying to say Caine has rape-victim privilege? Feminist privilege? What? (And just to pre-empt those ridiculous notions. No, our culture is not one where Caine’s view is prevalent and the rape apologists are dissidents. I trust you got that from the links swearing people kept pasting here.)
Declaring every activist space a space in which the activist perspective in question is privileged and should automatically bend to accommodate dissenters, coming from the mainstream or directly opposite views, is a way of subverting social justice language in order to silence the activist spaces and maintain the status quo.
In other words: well played, but not biting.
*Apologies for continuing to use Caine as an example here.
@ischemgeek,
Changing the entire parameters of an analogy that doesn’t even fit is moving the fucking goalposts. You can’t just make it say what you want it to. Please re-read the comments (yes, all 3300+) where the MRAs where shown that analogies such as murder can’t be applied to cases of rape.
*were
@b0nezbrigade
Just to clarify: The behavior you’re showing right now, that’s what you think is the proper approach for getting people to understand the errors of their ways?
If not, why aren’t you using these superior methods? Why are you acting in a way that, according to you, doesn’t work?
I just read ‘b0nezbrigade’ as “But I’ve been coming here since the internet was invented and was helping Pharyngula grow … and some ranty shit. Now along comes Caine, and she’s new … and more ranty shit, and people are not just liking her empathy, but also her insight, how dare people like Caine, when I ‘b0nezbrigade’ have been around Pharyngula since before molecules bonded … and more ranty shit.”
Said without irony or self-awareness, folks.
No-one doubts that: the question is, can you be anything else?
I’m flagging bonezbrigade for PZ’s attention.
bonze
If you had read the comments, (as you claim) you would have noticed the multiple people thanking Caine personally for opening their eyes, and educating them about rape.
You are attacking Caine, your claims are a huge pile of steaming maggot infested offal.
That doesn’t make you “overly harsh”, it makes you a ragey jerk with reading comprehension issues.
Why are you so mad at Caine? It doesn’t make sense.
b0nezbrigade: Your fucking concern is fuckety fucking noted, fuck-for-brains.
Caine new? Gee, been here 2-3 years now IIRC. And I remember when Bonezbrigade first posted.
b0nezbrigade, I typed “asset” and you read “pedestal.” Interesting. Given your word-diarrhea of an original post — complete with the requisite unnecessary underlines and parentheses and slashes and brackets and sub-references, clarity be damned — it’s not surprising that your brain would fill in the words you don’t want to read with the words you want them to say.
BTW, I didn’t claim you hadn’t read the comments; I said it’s clear you didn’t understand them.
Delurking after mostly reading this thread. Too many triggers and outright stupidity repeated ad nauseum. Thank you Jane Doe’s for coming forward. I understand not wanting to be named, rape or sexual assault never stops punishing the victim. Maybe more women will be warned because you’ve come forward.
Thanks PZ for posting this even though its a shitstorm.
Adding my thanks to the Horde for sticking it out and whacking the apologists and hyperskeptics again and again. You have more strength than I do. I stopped reading after having to fight the urge to throw my laptop across the room.
Although I really don’t think the rape apologists will read this. For those repeating that they don’t know what rape culture is or this isn’t rape culture.
If you’re supporting the privacy and honor of MS or any man accused of rape or sexual misconduct over the right of the victim to be heard. You are supporting rape culture. I have seen it asked many times but I have not seen a response. When has an accusation of rape done lasting harm to a famous man?
If your knee jerk response when reading/hearing of an accusation is something like Well why was she there, why was she drinking or the classic she just regretted it after the fact. You are supporting rape culture.
Women do not report rape because we will not be believed. Even if we are believed we are at fault. Unless you are a virgin cloistered nun the fact that at one point you consented to sex with a particular man will be seen as consent for any man for all time. Even if you were in your house at the time you will be at fault for not locking the door securely or being alone at the time. There is no justice provided for victims of sexual assault. I am not willing to sit and do nothing while attempting to change the justice system. Encouraging victims to not remain silent and outing the predators on blogs appears to be the best we can do given the present environment.
@ Chandrese 3336,
The depressing thing is that we’re probably both right.
It makes perfect sense. They saw Caine getting the praise and thought the best thing for them to do was to tear her down in order to diminish whatever good vibes were being sent her way. They’re actually trying to emotionally manipulate her by contradicting, as loudly as possible, the direct opposite of what others have said about her efforts here.
Reeks mainly of petty jealousy that no one ever fawned over b0nez contributions or engaged them instead of this johnny-come-lately.
Sure, you stated it, but in your case, that’s an extraordinary claim cupcake, so provide evidence.
@LykeX,
Thanks for providing a rational response instead of the reactionary bullshit I’ve already encountered (to which I will respond in kind, as Pharynguloids do). But, no, explaining things nicely is not even what I said. Pushing back against the bullshit in some other way than what’s obviously not working so well now is a start. I called out obvious flaws. Am I by default required to provide a working solution in their place? Would that even be entertained here at this point?
The Schroedinger’s rapist article was fucking great and a nice start for getting the creeps out there to at least start to think about their unwanted actions.
But, yeah, I’ve read all the comments.
You opinionated on what those flaws would be without showing that they are flaws. Please do so, like a real Pharyngulite would, instead of bloviating and blustering like you have a fucking clue.
Might be a good idea to move this discussion to the Thunderdome. It’s not actually on topic here.
@cunninglingus,
Nah, not _even_ what I said or implied,s o you can probably just stay the fuck outta the conversation, Caine’s been here awhile and has put out some good shit. However, she’s not god and not immune to criticism (as you apparently think), and she has mistaken the effect she must think she’s having with her methodology. Btw, she can respond to her own comments w/o help from distractor trolls.
@throwaway, gut-punched,
“They” Who the fuck is “They”? Back it up or shut the fuck up
@sqlrob,
Oh, thanks; you too, cupcake. :)
Good morning everyone! Well, finally a night without a nightmare since I’ve started reading this thread. Clearly, I should’ve commented sooner.
Now….
#3303 b0nezbrigade
It’s EVERYWHERE asshate, don’t make this like it’s only or just or specifically a problem in America.
Those that are just JAQing off, and giving rapists cover are called what they are – rape apologists. If anyone actually wants to learn they can read our links and deal with the insults or find a softer place to land. There’s PLENTY of people who has changed their minds because of the tactics we use here.
Nope, no, no way. That’s absolute bullshit. We don’t tell people to off themselves or die in a fire or anything like that. That is called out because it is wrong. Just like all those calls of “castrate and kill the rapists” were called out.
Experience, jackass, we haz it. Been there, done that a million times. We do often give benefit of the doubt but not for those who don’t read, or are being asshats. Don’t like it? Don’t fucking be here. There’s plenty of other places that are more moderated and “polite” in tone. Pharyngula is unique because of this tactic and The Horde. It’s a feature, not a bug. And yes, Caine very much so is a huge part of why I’m here, why I’m commenting and why I love it here. Her comments are undeniably awesome, informative, witty and helpful.
Yours was just this hard to read rambling turd that I wish I’d never had read.
[so, yeah, there will obviously be a delay in responses now, as I’m the new target (not that I can’t fucking handle it); so expect some wait times, of course, alrightythenmates]
I’ve been lurking through this shitstorm and finally caught up with the thread. I hadn’t planned to comment but I feel I have to comment on b0nezbrigade’s attack on Caine.
Bullshit. The collective tenacity is empowering and is resulting in progress. Not fast, not sweeping, but definitely progress. Over and over and over again, in this thread and in MANY before, people have come forward to talk about how this place has helped them — those who took a hard look at themselves and changed, those who found their experiences weren’t dismissed or diminished, those who saw that support and took comfort from it, even if they (like me) could not share their own, those who understood the need to speak out in their meatspace lives, those who joined meatspace organizations or collective actions.
From the Horde, but from Caine specifically, I’ve learned to speak up and speak out, particularly in meatspace. I found my voice because of the tenacity of the Horde and their willingness to jump HARD on JAQoffs and trolls and jackasses.
You want to talk progress? Well, in my case, I started just by calling out the sexism, racism, and other asshatted nonsense in my classes. (I’m an older-than-average college student in Minnesota and I have a moderate case of social anxiety.) It was scary as hell – it took me hours to stop shaking after the first time I called out “That’s not actually true” – but I did it, and was able to follow up by repeating things I’d learned here, including offering to email that person with links to resources on the topic, which I also learned about here. After that class, several people came up and thanked me, saying they wanted to say something but had been too scared to risk being the only one. The classmate I’d corrected requested the resources I’d offered (and continues to educate himself on sexism and racism). I decided that, as much as I was able, I would continue doing it, just to give even one other person the comfort of knowing they weren’t alone.
Funny thing happened. Slowly, over the course of that semester, my speaking out gave other people the courage to speak out in class — and not just the classes we shared, which means that they gave other people the courage to stand up and speak out, and so on, and so on. It’s slow, painfully slow at times, and hardly perfect, but… when Take Back the Night has a 200% increase in attendance, when more than the same three or four people are calling out sexist editorials in the campus paper, when a discussion of rape and assault of college women isn’t derailed by someone asking “Is this rape? How about now? Well, what about now?” because several voices are jumping in to refute that bullshit, when the women in my circle feel comfortable enough to speak candidly amongst themselves about their personal experiences with rape, assault, and harassment because they know they’re in a supportive, trusting environment.. that’s fucking progress, in my book.
— —
To courageous Jane Does: I believe you all. Thank you.
PZ: Thank you for being who you are and for this amazing space.
To the Horde: Thank you thank you thank you. As always, I continue to learn more, find more hope, and gain a bit more strength.
To those who have shared their stories: Thank you for opening up about painful and traumatic experiences. I am sorry for what you have endured and wish you peace.
—
*returning to lurkdom*
Yeah yeah b0nezbrigade, we get it, you want a ‘banned by PZ’ badge of honour. No worries, with what you contributed so far you are surely going to get it, no need to put in more effort. Now kindly shut up and fuck off.
b0nezbrigade, you’ve made your point, and you’ve gone way off-target for the point of this post. Please move your complaints to the Thunderdome thread, where people will be more than happy to engage with you on it. I don’t know if PZ would see your comments here as banworthy or warning-worthy, but here’s your chance to not have to find out.
What a Maroon, el papa ateo / 3351:
When I was in second grade – what is that, 7? – my male friend and I were kidnapped by some older kids as we were playing in the backyard of a neighbor. We were held in the woods for x amount of time (I really don’t remember) and told (although not forced) to do sexual things with each other. Being 7/8, I had no clue what those things were and managed to get them to release me to go get them money so we both could go. I got my friend’s mother (also my babysitter), who went immediately to the area. When those older kids saw her, they ran, and my friend and I were safe. As far as I know, the police were never called.
So what happened? The group of those kids came by my house, threatening me, because I told . One of them apparently was in the same school I was. After that, I was the one who had to be moved to another school to be kept safe.
Other than my parents, want to know what the adults asked me when they first heard about?
“What were you doing there?”
Bonez, the reason everyone doubts that you’ve read all the comments is because you show not a whit of a sign of a clue that you’ve understood any of them. You can’t even seem to get the MRAs’ stance on comparing rape to murder accurate, as far as I can tell.
b0nezbrigade:
Take this to the Tunderdome. If you were as involved in Pharyngula as you claim to be you’d know that’s where you belong.
Don’t argue, don’t answer back, just go there and continue this.
Crud. *Thunderdome.
B0nes,
Fuck off.
Thunderdome
I am amazed at how people can come into this thread and claim to have read the comments (over 3300 of them at this point), say something that makes it obvious to even a casual observer that they haven’t, and still think that the regulars here are somehow *required* to address each and every one of them not only politely, but following some sort of rulebook that they’ve just pulled out of their ass.
These are the kind of people who not only don’t follow the basic rules of civility, but seem to me to be the kind of person who thinks “consent” doesn’t apply when it’s not given in their favour.
Which, sadly, says a whole lot about who they are in meatspace. (As in: People I’d avoid like the plague or a puddle of biohazardous goo.)
Well. I see we’ve moved on from the malicious to the clearly disturbed. That’s gotta be…progress?
Is there a pattern to this? What comes next? Kaiju?
Praxis, #3370,
I think you hit that nail squarely on the head.
@tonyinbatavia: I’ve read enough of these 3000+ comments to convince myself that Michael Schermer is being lynched on this blog. Regardless of what he may or may not have done, in free democratic societies we are lucky enough to have something which at least aspires to be a legal system. A fair trial and the assumption of innocence until the evidence overwhelmingly proves otherwise is what that entails.
Is that something your pea-brain has trouble understanding?
And please, if you choose to respond to this, save yourself the invective.
So I’ve hesitated about this, because it is not my story to tell. However, I’ve decided to tell it.
Someone near to me was, starting at 12 and continuing until she was 18, repeatedly and frequently raped by her father.
She became depressed and attempted to block the pain and became addicted. This led to various behaviors/phenotypes that were noticeable and she was sent to a shrink for therapy. After some time, feeling that she had a good rapport with said shrink, she opened up about what her father was doing to her.
Unfortunately, said shrink subscribed to the theory that parental incest was vanishingly rare (and certainly did not occur in middle-class white families in suburbia), but it was not uncommon for teenage girls to want their fathers and invent stories.
So he told her that her issue was that she was a pervert. Oh, and he told her parents (that is, her rapist) what she’d said. Cue vicious punishments and rapes that escalated in violence and trauma. And an increasing spiral of depression, self-abuse, and withdrawal from the world – after all, she’d tried asking for help and reported it to someone she trusted, and had suffered as a result.
Years later, she told her husband what had happened. Very hesitantly, but to his credit he believed her. And supported her when she confronted her rapist (and those who’d enabled him). And supported her during the ensuing shitstorm that led to her birth family turning on her and casting her out.
Evidence? After 15 years, what evidence could there be? And besides, she was an ex-addict with a history of mental illness. He was an upstanding member of the community. Pfft.
But tell me, oh brave-and-knowledgable ones, what she should have done.
@3373 infiniteartsupplies
So, none then. Glad we cleared that up.
@LykeX,
Like I said, I can be as harsh as needed, and I will respond in kind to trollish bullshit. And when rational responses come my way, I’ll answer them in kind.
@Nick Gotts,
Thanks for attempting to silence a critical voice. Shit like that is a fucking disgrace to the freedom of speech here, and you know it, asshole. Go bawww. I’m done with you.
@Tethys,
I proffered fucking criticism. No one here is immune to criticism, and since you’re here, you’d have noticed PZ make that crystal fucking clear to you and everyone here.
@tonyinbatavia,
You must be new to the Internet. Underlines are sometimes simulated w/ underscores, and used for emphasis. Not all sites offer the <> tag. Thus, some Netizens default to the underscore every time. Yay, knowledge!
@throwaway, gut-punched,
Your fuck-for-brains comment makes me all warm and fuzzy. You are correct, and I should have presented a paper, in full LaTeXiness for your perusal. Are you saying that if I’ve noted something wrong, and then have a criticism, that I must stay silent until I’ve come up with the solution (however far down the road)? That I should not at least present it to be further discussed? Or are you just a fucking troll?
*u tag
Words – they have meanings. Try learning them before using words.
Sharing is caring, you fucker.
Jonny Vincent: Bye. Go powder your nose or something.
Bonezbrigade: Take a break, leave this thread NOW.
@infiniteartsupplies
Get it through your fucking peabrain. It’s not about Shermer. It’s about protecting women.
@Ms. Paper (Because I’m nasty.)
Duking it out here with both the simply clueless and the trollish over the last few days has really opened my eyes to how far we, as a society, have to go when it comes to the issue of consent.
Me? I’m “one of those types” who think consent, no matter your age or status or any other factor, is of utmost importance. Consent is at the root of the ideas of both autonomy and agency. It is vitally important that it is discussed as often as the weather or what to have for dinner. That it isn’t is a huge problem.
Johnny Oizys @ 3209:
In my experience, no.
I ended up posting my story after I saw jameswaller go down the, “is it rape if she drank that evening?” path. Now, we all know the answer to that, but I’m always interested in what the jameswallers of the world’s answer is because it becomes very apparent very quickly that they are, as someone up above (forgotten who, sorry) mentioned, fishing for enough details to pass judgement on whether or not it really was rape-rape. Jameswaller even went there with Caine while I was writing up my comment.
In my own case when that question comes up, depending on the venue and audience and how I’m feeling at the moment, I’ll start describing my own rape, although depending again on the venue and audience I’ll change details, including switching me out as the victim. (My story above is by far the most complete description of what happened to me I’ve ever mentioned.) What I will keep in place is the core story of fratty/bro-ish straight cis male raping another fratty/bro-ish straight cis male after a night of partying and, yes, drinking. And if they’re assholes into salacious details, yeah, I’ll include the part about his tongue rooting around my frenulum and suculus.
What invariably happens is that as their preconceived narrative about what rape is and who rape happens to breaks down, they stop interacting (or if online, I’m ignored). Which is good in its own way: online my story is a counterpoint to a stupid line of questioning, in meatspace it stops a conversation before it can get stupider. And maybe, possibly, the active participants and lurkers have learned something, or at least learned not to bring up that topic that way in front of me. But are you going to get acknowledgement of that? Probably not.
Esteleth,
I’m so sorry about your friend.
—-
*safe hugs* to everyone who shared their stories, or have traumas they are keeping in precisely because of people like some that are infesting this thread.
—-
*snort*
Gee, no noose, no stakes, no bonfires, nothing of any sort of punishment being meted out by this blog. Tell porkies much liar and bullshitter? Because when you lie like that about this, you will lie and bullshit about everything. That much is obvious.
More bullshit from an obtuse liar and bullshitter. This isn’t a legal matter. IT IS WARNING WOMEN ABOUT THE PREDATORY ACTIONS OF A KNOWN RAPIST. Complete with evidence.
Your pea brain doesn’t understand what is going on, other than the dudebro signal went out, and dudebros must protect each other with lies, bullshit, and aggressive behavior against those who step of what the dudebros consider “the line”.
Your logic is that of a probable rapist, and definitely a rape apologist and enabler.
OOH, fainthearted tone troll, the scum of the Earth. Five steps lower than a mountain of pigshit….
#3373 infiniteartsupplies
So, you don’t have ANY opinion on any criminal act where you’re not on the jury? You tell your friend “Where’s the evidence?” when their wallet was stolen? What, they reply “Well, it’s missing, I don’t have any proof” and you come back with “Well, then you’re a lying liar who just wants attention. It’s your own fault for being irresponsible and losing it”.
You fucking jackass.
Also, NO ONE is being lynched here. No one is calling for violence. We’re absolute against violence here.
Clearly, if you read the comments, you didn’t understand them, even though it’s been repeated for the umpteenth time in various ways.
@3027:
If you really want to vomit from irony, this was the top google result I got for michael shermer rape when PZ’s post first hit:
Michael Shermer, Towards a Science of Morality:
It seems that Shermer very much follows the bible in pursuit of “victory” in his personal war on women rather than following his own writings.
You’re confused, I get that, it’s hard to have 5 people to retaliate against at once. I’m well aware of the Utopia fallacy, so that’s far from what I even said. The problem, as I see it, is that you’re claiming that the reactions by Caine to serial sockpuppeting harassers and those who presumably were, are flawed as an approach to the issues involved. Yet you don’t say in what way. I think, maybe, you’d just prefer that she handle things differently. Well, why should she, if you can’t even show that her supposed tactics , un-cited in context by yourself. And never mind your exaggeration to absurdiy about how thorough you need to be in order to convince me, you haven’t even begun illustrating your point with concretes, so I’m left to wonder just what conversations you’re actually taking exception too… I suppose you want to go with the approach of hand-holding, cooing language to each person who shows up and repeats the same catch-phrases while wearing a different suit? What purpose does this serve except to give you an avenue of complaint, about how everyone should approach things as you see fit? I mean, seriously, you haven’t shown how one approach is flawed, and you haven’t shown how the converse is better. You have no fucking argument.
@infiniteartsupplies
Wow, that’s horrible. Where’s the body?
Which is, also luckily, completely distinct from this blog.
So, can you refer me to the fair trial, under the presumption of innocence, where the overwhelming evidence lead to a conviction of this blog for the offense of lynching?
You’ve accused the people here of a capital crime. Have you even reported it to the police? Or is that standard only for rape victims?
If you didn’t mean “lynched” and if you’re not claiming that this blog constitutes a court room, then why are talking as if you do?
Sadly, no kaiju. Except for PZ – fair approximation, sir. Nicely done.
Just lather, rinse, repeat step 1.
Thanks, artsupplies, for taking care of that nascent optimism for me before it got out of hand.
fix.
What is it with pea brained idiots who think that a criticism of a person is the same as a mob of white people torturing and murdering a member of an oppressed race.
I get real fucking angry when people misuse the term “lynching”. It shown a lack of understand of what an actual lynching was.
Fuck you, you pea brained idiot.
Walton –
piegasm –
Thanks, y’all. Something about those two comments in close sequence made me laugh out loud. And I sure needed a laugh after reading all the pages of this thread. Whew.
Didn’t we have an MRAsshole a while back trying to make a big huskerdoo about how “white men were lynched too, and since there were few women lynched, black or white, it was a MENZ problem”?
@zenlike,
Fuck off, asshole. I didn’t come here to get banned (but I don’t fear it, as you), but to provide rebuttal. If you don’t want to hear it, then scroll on away, asshole.
@Jackie, Ms. Paper if ya nasty,
Sure thing.
@NelC,
Fucking seriously? Gimme a minute, and I’ll show you where that was slammed. Maybe it’s you who hasn’t done the requisite reading…
@Socio-gen, something something…,
But why the fuck is this sleazy shit still happening at cons‽ There isn’t one solution, but it’s obvious some shit just doesn’t work, and it needs to be called out w/o fear of being shamed.
I, too, started to speak up via this very channel. Several minds still worth tapping here, for sure. And that is fucking awesome progress that you mentioned, btw.
@Prax,
Bullshit. You didn’t even read my fucking comment where I clearly stated I haven’t been around for a few years; so fuck off, troll. It’s amazing how you spew that shit and act like you read my far-less-than 3300-word comment. Jesus Fucking Christ, reading comprehension, ffs. And I’ll take it to the ‘Dome when I’ve addressed the comments directed at me; else I’ll be looked at as fleeing, y’know. ;]
@carlie,
soon…
PZ: leaving…
@b0nezbrigade
I’ve left a comment at the ‘dome. If you’re so inclined.
Several people have asked what’s with people who don’t read the comments, or say they’ve read the comments but haven’t. My theory is arrogance: they don’t believe there is any merit to the discussion or that it’s impossible for anyone who disagrees with them to formulate an argument worth reading.
Or maybe they just think they’re the only one who has enlightenment.
I run into the same problem when I teach 1st year college students–many of them genuinely believe that no matter the discipline, they already know enough about it to not have to study or pay attention. It’s a rude shock to them when they fail–they know they’re better than me and what I know, why don’t I recognize their brilliance?
Our trolls are crying out for their “brilliance” to be recognized, even though they don’t know anything about the subject.
Fossilfishy: You know what really boils student’s minds about Egyptians? Not just the cosmetics, it’s the fact that the Egyptians had and practiced birth control, including abortificants.
Thanks to whoever alerted – I went to lunch and missed that bonez doubled down.
Just as a clarification against the “you don’t tolerate criticism” statement he hurled: he wasn’t warned for “being critical”; yes, obviously dissent is tolerated here (over 3000 comments). But he was being critical of a particular commenter, and kept on doing so long after having made his point. Even that isn’t a bannable offense as long as it’s done in the proper location, which he refused to do. Instead, he continued to try to derail this thread to make it all about him.*
*all interpretation mine, not claiming I have special insight into the ways of the banning. This is just what it looks like from my view.
@3392 hotshoe
I initially took the blackberry comment as a joke about non-sequiturs.
Then I saw xir apologize for putting it in the wrong thread and lol’d at myself.
students’, sorry. I blame insufficient coffee.
@b0nezbrigade:
You really don’t get it, do you?
You don’t get to make the rules here. You don’t get to override what PZ has deemed to be appropriate for threads or appropriate for the Thunderdome.
Your commentary here is not appropriate for this thread. It belongs in the Thunderdome. You could have made those replies there. Instead, you continue to shit up a thread where you have been told by participants that you are not welcome, according to the well established and quite clearly spelled out rules provided by the blog author.
As for asking me to read your comment? You don’t know that I didn’t. You don’t really care if I did or not, either. You’re simply objecting to being told that this particular thread is not the place for what you have to say.
Do you go to “Open House” parties and shit on the rug then proceed to complain about being asked to take it to the bathroom, all the while continuing to shit on the rug? Because it seems like that might be the kind of thing you do.
So the real question is this:
After being told multiple times to take it to the Thunderdome and refusing…
Are you stupid, illiterate or just an asshole?
@Carlie
3374
Esteleth, statistically significant to p ≤ 0.001
I am so, so sorry for your friend. That’s just fucking awful. =(
It really doesn’t matter to these fuckfaces. A similar thing happened to me, though I was younger.
*Trigger Warning, just in case*
My grandma was a kindergarten teacher and my grandfather a war vet who became a firefighter. My father, after being the high school quarterback and the prom king, went into army as well. He later became a carpenter. He was The All-American Golden Boy who lived The American Dream. His “downfall” was meeting my mother, who he abused and pushed to near suicide and, eventually across the country. He then started abusing me in every way possible. Even when I was bloody, bruised and crying for help as a child, no one in my family believed me. Nobody helped me. Nobody.
Later, when my mother and I reconnected I told her it was bad and her first thought was “I’m so sorry, I didn’t think he’d hurt you.” She does believe me but it’s a big, horrible spot of guilt for her so I haven’t talked about it much with her. She’s been through enough and it’s not her fault. It’s only his fault, her staying just would’ve made her dead instead of gone. (She was molested by her brother (their father was also an abusive asshole) as a child and with her depression, I don’t want to push her. Her family was the quintessential rancher family, while my father’s was the 1950’s version of small town America. Fuck all that bullshit. It happens everywhere and can be anyone.)
He’s a racist, xenophobic, abusive,addict and rapist but he’s the one everyone bent over backwards to protect. It was my job to be perfect, to cover for him when he was too messed up to lie coherently to cover his actions.
Ugh.
*RAGE*
This is shit people are covering up when they play the victim blaming, JAQing off, “I want to hear the details” bullshit. The details thing really, really creeps me the fuck out. I’ve never given details and I probably never will because of those creeps that just light up, lean in and start panting when they push for specifics. There always seems to be one. When I was pushed into group therapy, (couldn’t get private sessions) the therapist pushed me until I admitted in a quite voice with my face to the floor, “I was raped” and the dude next me practically crawled onto the floor to make me look at him when he asked “W-what happened? What was it like?”
Aaaand now I feel like I need another shower. *shudder*
@ b0nezbrigade
But . . . isn’t that exactly why you posted your rant? To silence the critical voice of Caine et al., because you think they’re doing it wrong?
You could argue that you’re trying to promote better communication, but PZ — in telling you to get out and stay out of this thread — would argue he’s doing the same. You’re derailing and mansplaining and tone-trolling; having derailing and mansplaining and tone-trolling disrupts communication in this thread.
I do hope you take a break, to consider what you’re actually trying to say and saying it better, in the Thunderdome thread if necessary.
If you’re banned, I don’t actually think your “critical voice” be missed a whole bunch. There are people who are better at it than you.
@Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls: Please stop! My butt hurts.
Johnny, ButchKitties:
Thank you both for sharing your stories.
Johnny, it is my hope thst some among the rape apology crowd will listen to you, as a man, since they ignore women.
ButchKitties, it is awesome to hear how you are taking stuff you have learned here into meatspace and effecting change.
@infiniteartsupplies
You’re thinking too hard. Take a break.
You aren’t intelligent, you don’t know how to formulate an argument, and you aren’t funny. What else do you have to say other than nothing as you fade into the bandwidth. Why don’t you do so? Right, abject stupidity.
Jonny Vincent has form <– Link to B&W thread where he spouts the same nonsense, and worse.
#3405 infiniteartsupplies
Goddamn you lazy fuck, blockquote and cite the comment number. It’s not that hard. It’s been clearly explained several times in this thread and it’s above the comment box. You claim to have read the comments, right? Prove it! This isn’t twitter, the @ doesn’t make the link to a commenter magically appear so we don’t know what you’re immediately replying to unless you adhere to the posting style here.
Seriously, why can these fuckheads never blockquote? It’s like they think we can read their minds and everything is about them. Oh, wait…
You know, when I see people not respecting boundaries set by a blogger about something as straightforward as in which thread to be posting a certain line of commentary, I can’t help but suspect that those people have trouble respecting anyone’s boundaries but their own.
I don’t know why that would occur to me in this thread. Hmmm.
docfreeride: Thanks for the dry chuckle.
JAL, that’s truly awful, but thanks for your courage.
Odd that b0nezbrigade can ignore that it’s here that so many survivors of rape and similar abuse find they can tell their stories. Could it be because here, it’s clear that almost all the regulars are focused on their needs – and those of potential victims, as the OP is? Informing “inquirers” – even the few who are genuine rather than mere JAQers-off – is a lower priority. After all, if you don’t understand “Don’t rape – and don’t apologize for rapists, or focus on defining exactly where mere skeeviness becomes rape” – it’s because you don’t really care much about the victims, not because these are excessively difficult ideas.
Have a Balloon – Holy. Shit.
re: 3134
Yay you! You are a shining example of a decent human being.
Hardly. The thing is, I used to cite that as an example of “See? See how easy it is to get falsely accused?” because I believed that shit. Thanks to repeated blows from a clue-by-4, I finally realized the story was the exact opposite of what I thought it was. It wasn’t proof that it’s easy to be falsely accused, it was evidence that *not* being falsely accused was trivially easy, simply by not acting like a douchebag. And I eventually realized that I had been unintentionally providing cover to the assholes, not because I’d ever done anything actively to assist them or cover for them, but because I’d bought into the bullshit, they were using me, and the reputation I’d earned as being safe for women to be around, as justification for their own actions. After all, if even Keith, the guy women felt safe enough around that they could sleep on his bed while he slept on the floor in the same room if they really needed a place to stay the night, thought that the bitches be lyin’ all the time, well, just goes to show, right? And anyone attacking me for being an apologist, clearly they had no idea what they were talking about.
The realization of what I’d been doing, and not doing, happened when I was so pissed off in one conversation online that I didn’t fire off a response to something and instead sat fuming about it. Calm down, I thought, and I’ll give a rational response tomorrow. And so I sat stewing in it, but in the meantime reading further comments, and instead of responding immediately (as per normal) , I just read. Listened. Amazing the things you can realize about yourself when you shut up for a while and listen to the other people and begin considering the possibility that they might be correct.
And so I went back to the studies and stats and stories I’d mindlessly cited, and this time bothered to do a search for the criticisms of said studies and stats, and reading those. I started taking the handful of instances of false rape reports I was personally aware of and had used as justification and realized that I’d been guilty of confirmation bias. Compared to the by magnitude larger number of assaults and almost-assaults and other acts that I was also personally aware of, including family members, and all the others that I couldn’t know about but had to be there, the false cases were nothing. And I realized what a complete and utter fucking moron I’d been. Run into a smoke-filled building to save someone? Not a second thought (I’m a volunteer firefighter, I’ve done it). Say something when I saw a guy who I knew bragged about scoring making sure a woman he was talking to got drink after drink after drink while obviously trying to convince her to have sex with him? Well, no, that’s really none of my business.
I look back now and realize that there were things happening that I allowed to happen because I was completely oblivious to them, or that I didn’t even think about being wrong even if it were something I’d never consider doing myself, and I get utterly pissed and ashamed with myself.
So no, not a shining shining example of decency.
Again struck by how many parallels there are between MRA fuckwits and right wing imams in the hinterlands of the Middle East.
Bitches will wear burkas. Whether they are cultural or made of cloth. Men who believe men are all rapists by nature and right will determine the boundaries within which you live. To wit, how much you drink, what you wear, what you choose or not choose to adorn your face and body with…and most importantly – how you address the men in your circles…especially the powerful ones.
Fail to comply – get raped.
Accusations of lynching against people who have consistently and very bluntly shut down every White Knight who has come in and suggested castration or other violent retribution towards rapists, even the “joking” ones.
My surprise button. It is broken.
@docfreeride #3411:
I really don’t understand how you’d have come to that particular conclusion. After all, this thread isn’t about consent or boundaries, or anything so unimportant and easily dismissed as that. If you’ve been reading the comments from people who really “get it” you’d see it’s about witch hunts and lynchings and the fact that warning women about creepy assholes is the biggest violation of human rights that’s ever happened.
Besides, we all know that if anyone bring up issues about consent or boundaries they’re only doing to silence others because respecting other people is obviously the source of all evil.
(Yes, that was snark. Not my best work, but I’m tired and a bit wrung out from having the same fights on multiple threads in multiple places and having to face the same kind of assholes who keep coming here and saying the same stupid things over and over and over and over and over and over…) (…and over. Ugh.)
oops premature post…
Ignore assiduously the testimony of rape victims who are male because that undermines everything this order stands for….erase their entire experience from the discourse because the reality of it means my arguments are nothing but justifications for my exercise of violently defended privilege.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
OK MRA, what is wrong with the following plan as an attempt to erase the stain on Shermer, other than that *gasp* he won’t get laid at conventions *gasp*
1. He publicly admits he has a skeevy reputation (note that doesn’t even require he admit to this, or any other incident. IANAL, but it shouldn’t be admitting culpability elsewhere)
2. He publicly apologizes to Jen
3. He only attends conventions / events with a suitable, well defined, enforced harassment policy
4. At said conventions, he is always in the presence of a chaperon, up to and including sharing a room.
Of course, I don’t think this will ever happen because it requires him to act like a decent human being. I don’t think it’s anywhere near an ideal solution ,but it shows there’s something he could do. And if he did, maybe some of the ideas behind this will sink in (yeah, right. I’m too pessimistic to really believe that).
I should add that the content of those shutdowns was not ” Yeah he sucks, but we don’t condone violence.” It’s been, “We don’t condone violence, and this isn’t about him.”
@b0nezbrigade:
Going to add to you being dogpiled since this guy (that is me) thinks you deserve it, especially after so blatantly lying that you’ve read all the comments.
The people you call inquirers have been applying the freaking Zeno paradox to try and get intentionally getting people drunk to have sex with them from the list of not informed consent.
The others couldn’t be bothered to even read the original post or the first 500 to 1000 comments before JAQing. Or plain out denying that there is evidence, pretending this is a trial, and so on.
I have to give you that your attempt is at least new but trying to gild a turd doesn’t make the it anything less of a turd.
Take your “Holier then thou, I know better then you all on how to work on this without actually providing evidence it will be better but it will be just because I’m offended”-attitude and leave (to the Thunderdome).
Also our collective tenacity is working. Like I wrote earlier there have been more people daring to come out with stories of what happened to them and more people coming out in support then in any other thread about this ,on FTB, up to this point. Seems to me that the that the social stigma associated with just talking about a rape is a lot less prevalent (to non existent) here with the added benefit of support and people are starting to notice.
@infiniteartsupplies(#3372): The word you are looking for is ostracized not lynching. And it wouldn’t have come to this if a bunch of organisations hadn’t taken their how-to manual on how to handle rape accusations from the Catholic church. Thank you for playing (and winning) I’m clueless and want to prove it.
@throwaway, gut-punched(#3352):
In addition it is the silver bullet mentality. If I take down Caine everyone will realize that the rape apologists are right and/or we can ignore anything Caine approved of. Good thing it doesn’t work like that
@sqlrob #3420:
I think your #3:
…should probably just be standard practice for everyone. Regardless of whether or not they have the spectre of being a creepy douche attached to them.
@sqlrob
Correction: the Famous Skeptic mentioned in Jen’s post isn’t Shermer. It’s Krauss.
For Johnny Vincent
Googles image collection of male adornment images
http://ow.ly/nP9Zq
and a hearty Go Fuck Yourself
The world does not revolve around your penis. Sad little man.
@LykeX #3424:
Is is cruel to think that Shermer should just apologize to everyone, everywhere, for being such a douchnozzle?
Adding my thanks and sympathies to all you lurkers, of all genders, who’ve come forward to add your testimony. And my best wishes to all you lurkers who keep your silence while listening, learning, and riding out this thread alongside us in spirit.
—–
well it was a bit and some trolls ago, but to address this about the rape narratives applied to women vs men victims:
That’s… not entirely correct, and oversimplified. Not to jump on the person quoted, but the attitude towards male victims also tends to assume explicit consent, just through different narratives. When a man or boy gets raped by a woman, the story goes that a Real Man never says no to sex, therefore he must have wanted it and may “really” have initiated it. For instance, almost every statutory rape of a male student by a female teacher gets framed to be about the student “getting lucky”, “getting educated” or even “made into a real man”.
See also this discussion about a male rapper assaulted by a female fan during a performance: Jezebel link
Conversely, when a man or boy is raped by another man, the narrative changes to imply the victim must be gay, i.e “not a Real Man”, and therefore deserves raping via the same irresistible slutty-slut tropes usually applied to women. This version gets invoked not just by churches, priests, sports coaches, Republican officeholders and scout leaders, but also by the US military – it was routine for male victims of rape by their fellow soldiers to be silenced by the threat of expulsion under Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.
Here’s an example of pre-loading the “gay” excuse:
(TW for rape description)
source: The Military’s Secret Shame
(and yeah, I didn’t cite because I’d rather counter the mythology than the individual. Also the post numbers are all blurring together at this point…)
ButchKitties: Ah, but everything here is apparently about him. If there’s anything I’ve learned from reading the comments, it’s that Shermer is practically the only thing that matters in this situation.
Won’t anyone think of the Sherm?
I just wanted to add one more voice to the chorus that’s offering words of support for the woman/women who have passed their message on to PZ, so that others can be warned. I am seriously in awe of the courage it takes to step forward even this much. The fear you have to overcome is nearly overwhelming; I’ve been there.
So much <3 to the people here combating the stupidity and hyper-skepticism. I've been primarily a lurker here for quite a few years now (before the move to FtB as well), and I can't even tell you how much good it's done my own healing just seeing rape and DV apologetics ripped to shreds. My hope is that it's helping the anonymous women who emailed PZ the same amount of good. And that their warnings prevent another person from becoming a victim.
@3402, wow, that thread, wow, really, I have no words…
Jonny Vincent, if you are reading this, seek help. Really, really seek help.
HUGE thank you too to all the VERY funny people here. I’ve had so many belly laughs here getting through this difficult infuriating enlightening thread…
“Straight Hair is a LIE!!!!”
I’m dyin here.
THANK YOU EVERYONE for the comic relief – intentional or not.
And, because it bears mentioning, thank you to everyone who posted to talk about expanding their horizons because of paying attention to the discussions here. I ain’t responsible for them or anything, but it’s heartening. (I’ve got this cynicism problem, you see…)
It is something powerfully positive to be in a community where that blamey shit does not fly. Even more so when you see that others feel safe talking about their own experience. So thank you to everyone else who shared.
@marismae # 3429:
By saying what you said you can include yourself in the people combating the crap. You’ve also been brave by adding your voice to the chorus.
I am sorry that you need to heal, but happy that you are.
@LykeX:
Oops, My mistake. The rest of the list still applies, and hell, it applies to all the others that have been mentioned as well over the past week and longer.
@Praxis:
Yeah, but creeps are the ones that need to be explicitly told it for the most part. I’m glad Scalzi came out with his pledge and hope a lot more decent people do the same.
Leave for an hour to take your kid to a birthday party, and all of a sudden body decoration is a sign of the end times, and people who do good work need to be put in their place lest they actually feel good about themselves.
What?
What indeed.
Better quality of troll direly needed.
JAL:
One slight correction. Bonez was right that a few commenters made “…die in a fire” comments. Caine was not one if them. IIRC it was 2 or 3 people. I mentioned being uncomfortable with such language, after the last comment. I couldnt begin to recall where they were or which commenters said that (nor do I recall if anyone else condemned such talk).
Now I need a shower defending anything that obsessed creep said.
b0nezbrigade
@Tony:
I think the majority of the DIAF comments were from the hyperskeptics / MRA to show “how seriously we deal with rape”
Parse, Didgen, Johnny, you all brought tears to my eyes. Thank you and *hugs* all around, for everyone. Once again, decency and empathy and kick ass greatness show through on another incredibly tough thread.
Is Shermer a dead black person y/n?
If n, he isn’t being lynched.
Just out of curiosity:
Is anyone else her hearing Emily Autumn sing “Thank God I’m Pretty” while they read these jerks’s comments in recent threads?
That’s right. I’m a Plague Rat.
*raises paws*
It seems like a lot of the people here have already assumed guilt on Shermer’s part.
Assuming the the accuser is a liar is every bit as bad as assuming assuming Shermer is a rapist. This is why we have things like trials.
I sincerely hope some of the people on this blog never get jury duty.
Oh, look! Cold @ 3443 – another idiot who hasn’t read the OP or the comments.
Actually, it’s demonstrably not – assuming the accuser is a liar prevents other victims from stepping forth. Assuming Shermer is a rapist perpetuates… exactly nothing.
They tend to throw the people concerned with actual justice off quite quickly – Defense doesn’t even need a peremptory.
And we have another person who did not bother to read the OP or the comments.
I hope Cold never gets jury duty.
sqlrob:
You are right for the most part.
However, I do recall at least one lurker who spoke up in support of Jane Doe, PZ and the Horde who also told the apologists to die in a fire.
The other one I recall was a nym that I vaguely recognized who did the same (I wish I could remember who, but this was thousands of comments back).
I was torn even saying anything because I did not know if that would derail the thread. Ultimately I made one comment about feeling uncomfortable about such statements. I understand the urge. I still have kneejerk reactions, after reading horrible comments, to tell someone to go to hell. But I have trained myself to pause after thinking that.
Why?
I find the concept of hell to be disgusting. I know it is not real, but it creeps me out-the thought of telling someone to go be tortured.
So calling out people, no matter dho they are about wishes of violence is important to me bc this community is one that condemns violent rhetoric. We are not the Slymepit. Not just in condemning such talk, but also calling out our own. We actively try to maintain a standard around here, where the pitters do not. I am proud of that.
Also, the thought occurs to me that you’re too ignorant to realize this without someone holding your hand:
This isn’t a court of law. Innocent before proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is not the standard of evidence unless you can wield the law as a way to inflict punishment.
TRIGGER WARNING: Violent racist assault, actual lynching, history.
DO NOT USE THAT WORD for when someone is being criticized online for bad behavior which is corroborated by multiple unrelated witnesses. Especially do not do this if the man is a powerful prominent white man.
This is not that.
For reference for the ignorant:
Lynching is the extrajudicial execution and dismemberment of a human being – usually African American for the entertainment of a white mob and for the control of Black people who insist on their human and civil rights…IN THE REAL WORLD.
For reference:
Stop using that term. And for FUCKs sake to not derail this conversation into a semantic pit of horse feces to defend yourself. No one wants to hear that shit.
Cold –
You goddamn liar.
If you think this is a trial, then you already know that you can’t speak until you are called and sworn in as a witness. And you haven’t been called nor sworn in. So SHUT THE FUCK UP.
If you don’t think this is actually a trial, then you could speak whenever you like, but then you’re certainly lying when you claim that this is the same as a trial. Which is what you just did. So SHUT THE FUCK UP.
Goddamn. I hate lying liars.
Cold,
No it isn’t. The reasons have been discussed and links have been provided. Stop being such a lazy piece of shit and read them.
One more time with feeling:
THIS IS NOT A COURT ROOM.
THIS IS A WAY TO LET KNOW, SO THAT THOSE WOMEN MAY PROTECT THEMSELVES.
You’re the same sort of people who think it is my job to make sure I’m not raped, but think Schrodinger’s Rapist is sexist. How the fuck do you then claim that I don’t even have the right to know if a man has a history of harassing and raping women? You disgusting blights don’t even see how you are part of the problem.
correction: THIS IS A WAY TO LET WOMEN KNOW,
Cold:
Nice to know you do not believe anyone who tells you their house was broken into. What about a friend who is mugged? Do you wait until the mugger is on trial and convicted until you believe the victim?
Why do you people only reserve “dont believe the victim” for rape cases?
Why are rape cases the only crimes where no tentative belief can be held? Why do you have to wait until a rapist is convicted (which incidentally, is rare…hmm strange)?
I swear if the answer is “the damage done to the accused”, I will headdesk so fucking hard…
Hey, dipshit, stop with insulting rats. Rats aren’t at all immoral. They are magnitudes of order more intelligent than you are, for starters. They’re also capable of compassion, which is kind of a shame, seeing as I’d quite like to unleash my crew on you. They also don’t care if I wear cosmetics or not. So…that would actually make them more of a decent being than you.
@3443
Wow, in nearly 3500 comments you’re totally the first person to have said anything remotely resembling that! And it totally hasn’t been rebutted multiple times per page!
Also: I’m lying!
ButchKitties, *hugs* and *solidarity fistbump*
infiniteartsupplies:
Now that you’ve had a bit more time, I assume you’ve read enough of the thread to have found some of the previous occasions when precisely the same point you made in your original post was made by other posters. I also take it that you’ve now read at least some of the numerous detailed and thoughtful replies which explained what was wrong with that viewpoint. Please would you now give your response to those rebuttals and either tell us what was wrong with them or else admit that you were wrong in your original post.
“Actually, it’s demonstrably not – assuming the accuser is a liar prevents other victims from stepping forth. Assuming Shermer is a rapist perpetuates… exactly nothing.”
How does it prevent other victims from stepping forth?
Whether or not they step forth is a matter entirely left up from them. Neither Shermer himself nor potential backlash is physically stopping someone from stepping forth, provided they actually do have a case to make. If someone is that worried about potential backlash in the first place then perhaps they don’t have their priorities straight.
“Oh, look! Cold @ 3443 – another idiot who hasn’t read the OP or the comments.”
“And we have another person who did not bother to read the OP or the comments. I hope Cold never gets jury duty.”
Except I did.
More accusations without evidence? I’m starting to see a trend here.
“They tend to throw the people concerned with actual justice off quite quickly – Defense doesn’t even need a peremptory.”
Fair enough but that’s a whole other can of worms.
“Also, the thought occurs to me that you’re too ignorant to realize this without someone holding your hand:
This isn’t a court of law. Innocent before proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is not the standard of evidence unless you can wield the law as a way to inflict punishment.”
Also true but consider the ramifications if Shermer ISN’T a rapist. He is now and forever “that guy who might have possibly raped someone”.
This isn’t an attempt to downplay the atrocity of rape, it’s just a reminder that not everyone who gets accused of rape is necessarily guilty but in many cases the ramifications suggest they might as well be.
“You goddamn liar. If you think this is a trial, then you already know that you can’t speak until you are called and sworn in as a witness. And you haven’t been called nor sworn in. So SHUT THE FUCK UP. If you don’t think this is actually a trial, then you could speak whenever you like, but then you’re certainly lying when you claim that this is the same as a trial. Which is what you just did. So SHUT THE FUCK UP. Goddamn. I hate lying liars.”
When did I claim this was a trial? I said “this is why we have things like trials”.
Maybe a little reading comprehension would do you well.
“You’re the same sort of people who think it is my job to make sure I’m not raped”
It’s not your job to make sure I’m not raped? Whose the hell is it then?
I would certainly say that before anyone else, it’s MY job to make sure I’m not raped. Why is it someone else’s job to do anything for you?
“You’re the same sort of people who think it is my job to make sure I’m not raped, but think Schrodinger’s Rapist is sexist. How the fuck do you then claim that I don’t even have the right to know if a man has a history of harassing and raping women?”
Again, when did I say you don’t have the right to know if a man has a history of harassing and raping women? The problem is that besides personal anecdote there is no compelling evidence to believe Shermer raped anyone.
infiniteartsupplies @3373, I see you didn’t score any substantive, astute, nuanced, or aware points, but thank you for playing.
For the record, the “He Iz Bein’ Lynched!” claim was presented and destroyed numerous times in the comments, as was the “It Didn’t Happen Until the Legal System Says It Happened” claim. And yet, here you are, another troll making those very claims.
Hmm. That makes me think that perhaps you are a lying sack of shit when you said that you had read enough comments. Or maybe you meant to repeat the same bullshit claims, thinking that maybe, perhaps we wouldn’t remember them the first several times that flaming asshats made them?
Well, whatever. Either way, we can easily put your efforts down in the “I Have Nothing to Contribute to this Conversation” column. We hope you do better next time.
Buh-bye, b0nezbrigade. I would think, as a self-declared regular here, you’d know that when I tell someone to leave a thread it does not mean you get to toss in one more rant, or that you need to say goodbye — it just means STOP.
This isn’t a court of law. Our opinions on the subject don’t count. But then, saying that shows you are someone with an agenda, who lies and bullshits.
Gee, again with the legal system which is no way present, confirming you are a liar and bullshitter. Nice of you.
That is the only place where “innocent until proven guilty” must be the null hypothesis. What a fuckwitted idjit.
I specifically want to thank darkwater up at #3382 for explaining why he tells his story:
The great value of this space comes largely from the number and variety of survivors that speak out – all of us who may not be female or cis or whose stories falsify the myths in any of dozens of ways. I try to use my story similarly, but to break misconceptions about supposedly risky behavior and about consent: I was raped in the middle of unimpaired consensual sex, by my trusted partner, in my own home. It’s not particularly relevant to the current discussion, but plenty of lurkers will have had those very common experiences, too.
In my notes I came across a discussion back in February, when we had a troll attack us for sharing our stories online. (Haven’t had quite that specific attack come up here, though the shitweasel flaming at Caine may qualify.) Several of us responded, but I’ll just reiterate my post from then:
Link to original discussion
So I’ll just throw this out for the silent lurkers. Telling your story in a public forum can be a very high bar indeed, but it doesn’t make you less brave nor less worthy of having your story heard. Please consider contacting survivor resources in your own area where you can speak anonymously and in confidence with someone who will listen. In the US I recommend the National Domestic Violence Hotline, who I turned to years ago when I first spoke the words “I think I might have been abused”.
http://www.thehotline.org/2013/03/what-to-expect-when-you-call/
Besides, it might give PZ (see #3018) a bit of respite from the deluge. ~;>
Cold does not seem to want to understand just how people who have been raped can be silenced.
If he read this thread like Cold claimed to have done, Cold could know this.
I sense a pattern here.
(This is Jadehawk’s Nightmare Groundhog Day.)
infiniteartsupplies:
Do you understand now?
You have the definition of _lynching_ given to you–Google must be difficult for you–so you understand that no lynching has occured, nor has anyone called for such.
Being a rational skeptic, I am sure you have no problem admitting when you are wrong and apologizing. Especially for such hyperbolic rhetoric.
Well…I’m waiting…
Tony
Several people, and at least one of those who made such a statement apologized and retracted it.
The next bit was originally for infiniteartsupplies, but cold showed up while I was catching up, so this goes for you too:
The reasons for what you are talking about have been exhaustively covered by many people in many different phrasings. The fact that you are still repeating, almost word for word, the blithering of previous trolls indicates that a)you have either failed to read the thread or you have zero comprehension of written English, and also b)that you are the kind of asshole who takes the side of the powerful against the powerless, and therefore opposed to the very concepts of ethics, compassion, and indeed society itself. You are complete scum.
Re: Cold @ 3443, can’t we just make a list of these ridiculous arguments, number it, and then rebut the trolls by number? Of course, it wouldn’t be nearly so colorful.
This would be argument 1a or thereabouts, “A blog is JUST LIKE a court of law”, with the usual slight flavor of inability to read the previous comments and a certain stench of condescension.
Also, seconding Caine regarding rats. Rats are, in general, very sweet animals.
“Cold: Nice to know you do not believe anyone who tells you their house was broken into. What about a friend who is mugged? Do you wait until the mugger is on trial and convicted until you believe the victim?”
As opposed to instantly believing my friend just by virtue of the fact that he’s my friend?
Honestly if my friend told me his house got broken into I’d probably believe him because the ramifications of me believing him or otherwise is close to zero, other than the fact that I’d be kind of a dick to not believe something my friend is telling me.
If I had the life of a person in my hands based on what someone is telling me, it calls for proper investigation of the matter regardless of whether or not the person perceived as being slighted is my friend.
Hope that clears up your question.
“Why do you people only reserve “dont believe the victim” for rape cases?”
I would say it applies to all kinds of legal matters.
“Why are rape cases the only crimes where no tentative belief can be held? Why do you have to wait until a rapist is convicted (which incidentally, is rare…hmm strange)?”
Um, because assuming guilt is wrong?
Why then is a rape case the only case where you’re allowed to assume the accused is a rapist? Where is the logic in that?
“I swear if the answer is “the damage done to the accused”, I will headdesk so fucking hard…”
That’s not the reason, the reason is because you should be innocent until proven guilty.
I won’t be monitoring for a while.
See Cold, people probably think you didn’t read anything of this thread, otherwise you wouldn’t make the exact same debunked idiotic arguments already made a dozen times over.
Yes, because if you are not ‘physically’ stopped, then no problem, amyrite?
So basically you lived under a rock the last 2 years.
Cold, how about you stick to the women in STEM thread? At least your cluelessness there hasn’t (yet) been personally debunked scores of times in the last 48 hours.
This would be argument 1a or thereabouts, “A blog is JUST LIKE a court of law”, with the usual slight flavor of inability to read the previous comments and a certain stench of condescension.”
Again I didn’t say a blog was a court of law, but completely disregarding the concept on innocent until proven guilty seems like an excuse to drag someone’s name through the mud without hard evidence.
Yes, because if you are not ‘physically’ stopped, then no problem, amyrite? So basically you lived under a rock the last 2 years.”
What have I said so far that’s been “debunked”?
Using this logic, people are not allowed to warn others if they are in the presence of a rapist if it has not been “proven” in a court of law.
(What do you know, that students from Stuebenville are not guilty of rape and people would be wrong to warn others of them.)
I’m just going to quote David Lysak. I’m sure it won’t stop the trolls from crying about witchhunts, lynchings, and courts, but the facts about the prevalence of unprosecuted sexual violence in our culture are abysmal.
source
http://www.middlebury.edu/media/view/240951/original/PredatoryNature.pdf
infiniteartsupplies:
NO! God-fucking-dammit, why does every bonehead who appeals to authority ragingly misunderstand their pet authority?
Evidence can’t prove any thing. Evidence indicates, or supports, but it doesn’t prove.
A trial doesn’t look for overwhelming proof, just something beyond a reasonable doubt.
This is not a trial, nor is it a lynch mob.
Do NOT ever compare a discussion to a trial—you cheapen trials even more than they have already been.
Do NOT FUCKING EVER compare discussing a rich and powerful white man to the torture and murder of a powerless black man.
Nor is this a Wild West effort to subvert justice. This started as a discussion of the strong evidence that Michael Shermer appears, beyond a reasonable doubt, to be committing injustices.
All this post and discussion has done, and all it can do, is give women warning to not go drinking with Michael Shermer.
People like you will still respect and support him, so what, exactly, has he lost? Anything?
Cold, buddy, I can’t tell from this end whether you haven’t read the earlier thread where we’ve been through this exact argument about a dozen times, have read but didn’t comprehend, or don’t care because you’re trolling.
It really doesn’t matter, though, because this isn’t about whether you understand or agree.
The people who started and are perpetuating this thread think that the moral path is to believe Jane Doe. Hell, we admire her for speaking out in this cultural context.
We balance the possibility that even one woman may be safer from either Sherman – or another rapist who uses the same common rapist tactics – against the possible cost to the reputation of someone with great privilege and the noted habit of engaging in skeevy behavior – if not actual rape – and we come down on the side of the potential rape victims.
Your opinion and blessing? Not relevant and not worth a crap to anyone but yourself.
You’re wasting your time, you’re wasting our time, you’re irritating as hell, and you are making yourself look like a creep.
Please stop.
This.
Is.
Not.
A.
Court.
Of.
Law.
Innocent is the null hypothesis in courts because of the power differential between the government and the defendant, not because it’s the logically correct way to approach a truth claim.
Also: What harm do you suppose will come to Shermer over this?
And: What about the additional women he would almost certainly rape if this turns out to be true?
Cold @3467:
I see. Well, since none of us holds Shermer’s life in our hands, this is a non-sequitur.
cold:
I wasn’t aware that Shermer was hooked up to a machine that will electrocute him when 4000 comments supporting his accuser pop up here. If he isn’t, I’m pretty sure his life is not, strictly speaking, in our hands.
Really? Really really really? Because I’m pretty sure that if, say, an elderly gentleman were making out his will, and one of his children kept feeding him more and more of his medication while he was doing so to the point where he was thoroughly befuddled and willing to do exactly as they said, and he therefore made out his will in their favor, that you wouldn’t say “Oh, sucks for him. But he did sign it! So what if he told the nurse an hour later that he had no recollection of that time period? He should have known better than to take so much medication!”
Seriously, would you please just sit down for a minute and consider the implications of what you’re saying? Just, in common humanity, consider the human implications of what you’re saying?
Using this logic, people are not allowed to warn others if they are in the presence of a rapist if it has not been “proven” in a court of law.
Didn’t say that either. You’re allowed to do what you want, I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of the “accuser should be assumed right / accused should be assumed guilty” argument being made.
For example, I am now accusing you of raping me. You’re a rapist and you raped me. Will I be shunned here or will I be given the same kind of fanfare like PZ’s OP did?
And yet again, assholes can’t use blockquote.
<blockquote> quote goes here </blockquote>
It’s not difficult at all. (incidentally, cold, if you’d read the thread, you’d already know this)
Devoted lurker of many years reporting in. Message runs as follows:
PZ, Jane Doe; your respective braveries are an inspiration. Thank you for what you have done.
Caine; it’s an honor to witness the asskicking you dish out. Thank you for your vigilance.
The rest of the Horde; thank you for fighting the good fight.
LykeX:
:falls over laughing: Oh, thank you for all the weird images that brought up!
Hooloovoo:
I am so very glad you were there for them, Hooloovoo. You made such a difference, you’ll likely never know just how much.
b0nezbrigade, I prioritize other people who have been victims of rape and sexual assault. Yes, repetitive flaming doucheweasels are very low on my list of priorities. That is not going to change. If I read you right, you prefer an approach like Pteryxx’s, which focuses on education. That’s great! No one rocks the education boat like Pteryxx, I sure can’t do it half that well, and if you can, the more the merrier! I’d love to see another kick ass educator rocking the hell out of threads like these.
Nerd:
5 sniny years! :D
Back to trying to catch up…
Dear Cold,
You have said nothing, I repeat, nothing, that hasn’t already been said a dozen times over by other in the preceding +3400 comments. All those arguments you spout have been said, and demolished. The fact that you don’t see this is proof that you did not read the thread and thus this exclamation
makes you a bald-faced liar.
You’re wasting your time, you’re wasting our time, you’re irritating as hell, and you are making yourself look like a creep.
So I’m a creep because I refuse to assume someone is guilty in a discussion of rape? Interesting line of reasoning.
Should I have included a “trigger warning” in my post so as not to have offended your sensibilities?
Cold, dude, why are you assuming that we are guilty here?
What harm have we caused Michael Shermer? Is he going to spend the rest of his life quivering dysfunctionally every time a Pharyngulite gets near him? Is he going to go broke?
What are we guilty of with regard to Michael Shermer?
What are we supposed to do when a trusted friend tells us something bad has happened? Assume they are guilty of lying?
What are we guilty of?
No, you’re a creep because you’re more concerned about the unidentifiable harm that probably won’t come to Michael Shermer than the almost certain harm that will almost certainly come to any additional women he will almost certainly rape should this account turn out to be true.
Cold, 3458:
Coming forward about as traumatizing an experience as rape and assault is pretty fucking traumatizing itself. Being summarily dismissed as a liar because the evidence provided – i.e. the survivor’s word – isn’t up to your standard makes it a lot worse. The simple fact that this attitude – bitches be lyin’ – is very prevalent is what’s keeping survivors silent.
Also, “making a case” isn’t the point here. Punishing Shermer isn’t even the point. The point is to warn other women, so they can keep well away from a potential rapist.
Right, because famous white men accused of rape have it so fucking hard.
Please, do tell us how being accused of rape has ruined even one innocent famous white guy’s life.
Also, if Jane Doe’s account is true (which I believe it is) and if the other accounts of Shermer’s creepy and predatory behaviour are true, then that’s a pattern that’s not likely to just magically cease. Which is to say, he’s very likely to victimize another woman, or women, in the future. Warning them about this pattern of his is going to help them remain safe, which is the entire point.
Nope, only about 90%, according to the studies that have been linked time and again on this thread.
I would say it’s the fucking rapist’s job to NOT RAPE. Stop putting the onus of preventing rape on the victims, scumbubble.
How do several women’s accounts of Shermer’s behaviour not constitute compelling evidence?
I mean, aside from “bitchez lie”.
Infiniteartsupplies has been banned for not knowing what the word “lynch” means.
Cold has been banned because his stupidity has started metastasizing to other threads…best to stomp on a growing malignancy early.
Cold @3467:
None of us have the life of a person in our hands here. More specifically, we do not have Michael Shermer’s life in our hands.
At most, we have some of his reputation in our hands. Maybe, hopefully, enough of his reputation that women will be careful about accepting drinks from him, or going back to his room to talk about his books.
It’s remotely possible that he will be shunned and ruined to the extent that Roman Polanski and Mike Tyson were. Both of those men are convicted rapists, one of them pleaded guilty to raping a 13-year-old, and they have influential friends who have decided that those rapes somehow don’t count. That’s after they have been proven guilty by the standards you seem so fond of.
Cold, you fucking blithering idiot. I will quote from the OP.
All this post ever was was this, a warning to other women about how Micheal Shermer conducts himself. But you are either arguing that women cannot even do that or that you have not read anything in this thread.
Either way, you are a closed minded assclam.
Now kindly fuck off and crawl out the window when you leave.
Dammit all. In a court of law, the choices are:
1) Innocent
2) Guilty
This makes a court of law a binary decision, attempting to approximate the truth value of whether or not someone actually committed a crime to within as close a margin as possible.
OUTSIDE of a court of law, there are DEGREES of assessment of guilt. It’s a spectrum. Given the circumstantial evidence available that does not amount to enough to put a person in jail in a court of law, you can still determine that they’re not trustable in certain situations.
THAT IS ALL THAT IS ARGUED HERE. Stop with the binary assuming-he’s-guilty nonsense. PLEASE.
Dear Cold,
No, a trigger warning is not used so as not to offended anyone’s sensibilities. It is used on graphic posts to warn former victims of similar stories that the content might not be suitable for them to read, seing as it might ‘trigger’ them to relive their experiences. The fact that you joke about this shows exactly how much empathy you feel for victims of rape and abuse. Thank you for showing exactly what kind of person you are. Thanks.
I can’t speak for anyone else, and even though I don’t agree with Shermer’s politics, I have read and enjoyed and benefited from a few of his books. This whole thing bums me the fuck out and the gloating religionists makes my stomach turn.
This isn’t fun, it doesn’t make me happy and I don’t want to believe Shermer is a rapist. It upsets me not just because there are victims, but because it’s infuriating that apparently it doesn’t surprise anyone more familiar with him.
Despite that, It’s not as if I can’t have a reasonable opinion about what is more likely without a trial having occurred, and it’s not as if there is no rational reason to defer to PZ’s judgement in this case. Absolutely I could be wrong. I’m ok with that. If it turns out to be false, Shermer will recover. But I should remind you that he already a bad reputation for a reason. Before any of this. That’s his own fault and perhaps something we all should have been more concerned about, rape accusations or not.
This did not occur in a vacuum. If it makes you feel better to pretend that it did, that’s kind of sad. I sincerely hope your friends don’t ever confide a sexual assault to you. Presumably you’d have to wait until the trial was over to believe them and that’s just fucking sad.
Man, the number of people who won’t listen until the banhammer comes down has started to resemble what happens when Scalzi tweaks Bealls.
Wonder why that might be…
Irrelevant. Never mind.
@(cold):
By making the default position that the victim is a liar and can be ignored. Then retaliated against with impunity by the attacker and the people definding him. Which isn’t exactly a fun thing to happen after a traumatic event such a rape.
Ok this is the end of me being nice and explaining to you. You haven’t bothered to read the original post.
Yep of you not reading the original post then barging in with a holier then thou attitude about what is discussed. I hear there are several Catholic Dioceses that could use a marvelous spin doctor like you.
Well then he shouldn’t have behaved like one as corroborated by multiple eyewitnesses. Oh wait I’m only allowed to assign blame when I want to dismiss the accusation by blaming the victim.
It is an attempt to down play it by making the a priori assumption that accusers are lying when evidence in this thread, which you haven’t bothered to read, indicates that the a priori assumption should be that the accuser is telling the truth
The moment you went on about what has been presented being not enough for a trial and should bring it to trial so we should back off from naming Shermer.
Says the person who couldn’t even read the original post or if having actually read it failed at first grade reading comprehension.
The rest of society.
Case in point; My sister if she has to work late in another city makes sure her husband can pick her up from the train station. And why does she do that? Because society doesn’t tell her she can walk/bike/take the bus home without the potential of rape, where I can do all those due to being male
Oh the we can’t convict him on hearsay gambit again so we should back off (so what was that about this not being a trial?). If you’d have bothered to read the thread you’d know you were wrong. And you just contradicted yourself since we aren’t allowed to name people, according to you, we can’t tell other people about them.
Cold –
Cold is just another predator who knows that a woman’s written testimony is not “evidence”.
Goddamn your eyes, Cold.
What a completely incoherent sentence.
Cold hearted asshole
The argument is actually “The benefit of the doubt should go to the accuser before the accused just like every other crime.” Do try to keep up.
No, but since you are such an asshole that you can’t tell the difference between rape and being disagreed with on a blog I will dive behind the splatter shield and wait for the squish.
Jason Thibeault @ 3491, a nitpick:
IANAL, but my understanding is that in the U.S. the choices are actually guilty and not guilty — which is distinct from innocent (in that it means “insufficient evidence to PROVE guilt” — a distinct claim from innocent).
Which means that it’s quite possible to recognize the likely existence of people who have done bad stuff in circumstances where it was not possible to prove in a court of law that they have done it.
(Not that that undermines your larger point, nor turns this into a court of law.)
According to PZ, Cold has been banned for rank stupidity. But it does not seem to have taken hold yet.