We need a sociologist of science…or a philosopher » « Thistle Memorial Heavily Moderated Lounge Adjunct and Hookah Bar

[Thunderdome]

evilbunny

This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.

This one is just in case you find that other bunny thread too nice.

Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread

We need a sociologist of science…or a philosopher » « Thistle Memorial Heavily Moderated Lounge Adjunct and Hookah Bar

Comments

  2. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    [from previous thread

    if you want me to shut up, you can always tug on PZ’s hems,

    My influence onPZ is zero. Yours is less than zero. Why do you arrogantly expect a quick response. Try back in 24 hours when PZ can whittle down his back log. Unless, of course, you are trolling….

  3. says

    By the way, I have received many complaints about various commenters today. I’m extremely reluctant to police anything in the thunderdome (it says UNMODERATED, notice). And the other thread — you know which one I mean — is one to rage on. Give the asshats hell.

  5. Ogvorbis says

    Sorry, PZ. I posted my #4 before I saw your #3. I really wasn’t trying to get in a dig at you. Just me being my usual slow. Sorry.

  6. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    Everytime I show up any more, the dog’s run off, the cat’s at the liquor, the toilet’s backed up, and theres soup all over the walls.

    Big eye, little eye to one and all.

  8. says

    Ogvorbis:

    Where the fuck do all these people come from?

    I don’t know, but I’d dearly like them to go away. I’m tired of idiots. Especially sockpuppeting idiots.

  13. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    PZ

    Give the asshats hell.

    Will do PZ:

    Anyway, no one is displaying trollish behavior, Redhead.

    Sorry, but you are evangelineclaire:, you can’t put up, won’t shut the fuck up. Definition of trolling. Why don’t you just go away for 24 hours.

    I think Im getting a nosebleed. Thanks. A lot.

    Who the fuck cares. Either forward an argument or shut the fuck up. Or tacitly acknowledge you are trolling….

  14. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    evengeliclaire,

    PZ was in this thread just now. PZ didn’t give you a response. PZ doesn’t care, he doesn’t give a fuck. Will you leave now?

  17. says

    Oh hey, I guess it’s my turn in the invisible pixel chair today.

    Hey evangeline! If all you wanted to do was discus you’re random news clipping from the Daily Shithead, then why do you seem way more invested in your little “am I banned yet” dance with the regulars than actually fucking discussing that transphobic piece of garbage with those who bothered to respond.

  20. Portia says

    You are so clearly here with a vendetta, asking for shit. So you’re getting shit. Deservedly and eagerly. You’ve done your dance, congratulations.

  23. Asher Kay says

    Hey, peoples.

    I don’t know if any of you listen to “Tell Me More” on NPR, but there was a really horrendous segment today about Steubenville (the “Barbershop” segment). Here’s the link (I don’t know for sure what warnings to add — forgive my inexperience. They don’t say anything graphically descriptive):

    http://www.npr.org/2013/03/22/175043742/should-there-be-sympathy-for-steubenville-rapists

    I actually screamed at my radio. Screamed.

    The reason I’m posting is that I’m planning to let them know how I felt about the segment, and I’d appreciate it if anyone else did so as well.

    If anyone doesn’t want to read the whole thing, I’m happy to summarize.

  26. says

    A little digging reveals that Evangelineclaire is the previously banned nitwit, Eucliwood. Also Eu, Eunecromancer, and a few other names; also has been pestering me on Twitter with that same question, which was my clue to take a look at the records.

    Sorry if it leaves conversations dangling, but my policy on banned commenters who sneak back on the site under another name is to delete all the comments made under false pretenses.

  27. says

    I’ll drop my latest movie reviews here. That oughta cause all kinds of controversy. Kidding! (I think.)

    Monday Movies were Looper: “Is this thing ever going to end?” I know, I know, everyone thought it was great, but I find time travel movies annoying. Bad science all over. The only time travel flick I liked was Primer and most people hated that one. Skyfall: I was pretty happy with the Bond reboot with Daniel Craig, but this one disappointed with it’s regression into “hey, this is a guy’s club where the wimmin are happy sex objects.” Yeah, I know, it’s Bond. Still, two women dead, one happily deciding on life as a secretary. Uh huh. Also, who in the hell thought it was a good idea to make Bardem blonde? Sinister: Starts out intriguingly enough, suitably tense and creepy with ethical dilemmas tossed in. Keeps the tension going nicely, then devolves into “ooh, supernatural stuff!” Bleargh. Non-existent beings can’t hurt you. Mister gave it more points for being creepy than I did, the whole supernatural!!1! junk leaves me cold and uncreeped.

  28. Ogvorbis says

    PZ:

    (and this one is an intentional response)

    You realize that this will make the conversation in the late previous thread even MORE nonsensical?

  29. says

    Sorry if it leaves conversations dangling, but my policy on banned commenters who sneak back on the site under another name is to delete all the comments made under false pretenses.

    It’s okay with me, gad, he was annoying.

  31. says

    I hated Looper. It made no sense — they have time travel and all it’s used for is as a way for gangsters to get rid of bodies? What? The future has some way of detecting when you kill someone, but no way of knowing that you disappeared them into a time machine? And then it didn’t even deal with the implications of time travel intelligently. If you wipe out some older version of a guy by killing the younger version, shouldn’t the entire plot of the movie have vanished?

  32. Ogvorbis says

    I doubt that conversation was going anywhere productive anyways.

    I wonder what the opposite of ‘productive’ is (because that is the direction it was headed)? Deductive? Management (at my office, anyway)?

  33. John Morales says

    PZ:

    Sorry if it leaves conversations dangling, but my policy on banned commenters who sneak back on the site under another name is to delete all the comments made under false pretenses.

    This being Thunderdome, I take the liberty of noting that it’s your policy, which you can change as you see fit.

    (I doubt you’re very sorry)

  34. Portia says

    I’d say “So, what were we talking about?” but I think it was drinking ourselves into a stupor over rape apologia.

  35. says

    You read my mind now?

    No, I’m sorry if it leaves conversations broken and confusing. I feel I have little choice because I’d feel sorrier if I gave assholes incentives to try harder to sneak back on.

  36. John Morales says

    Ogvorbis,

    I wonder what the opposite of ‘productive’ is

    Unproductive, but in this context I think it was distractive.

  38. says

    Caine, I agree Eucliwood/evangelineclaire is very annoying but she definitely identifies as female.

    It’s also a little bit annoying that the comment numbers in the end of the last thread are probably fubarred totally, but that’s no reason not to go with the policy of deleting comments made under false pretenses by morphing.

  40. says

    PZ:

    If you wipe out some older version of a guy by killing the younger version, shouldn’t the entire plot of the movie have vanished?

    My thinking too, and it made the end of it even stupider. I’m at a loss to know why so many people loved that movie.

  42. Asher Kay says

    Crap. That was me in #23. In my hysterical anger, I used the wrong browser and gave away my long-protected pseudonym.

    So… not sockpuppetting, PZ. Honest mistake.

    [What long-protected pseudonym? Fixed. –pzm]

  43. says

    Marcus:

    @Caine – you are right, Primer is the only one worth watching.

    I had to watch that one twice, too. Just to get a handle on what the hell was going on.

    Xanthe, my mistake. Apologies to the annoying twit.

  44. blitzgal says

    The only time travel flick I liked was Primer and most people hated that one.

    Oh, me, me!! That movie was so cool! I didn’t even understand it; I needed a cheat sheet. But then I watched it again to catch everything.

    Watching Looper, I just kept getting freaked out by what they did to the kid’s face to make him look more like Bruce Willis. I mean, he’s the one on screen for most of the movie, why wouldn’t they make Bruce Willis look more like HIM? Is that a really dumb question? Anyway, every time his face came on the screen it creeped me out. I was also very underwhelmed by the film.

  46. says

    Looper’s ending annoyed me. It’s like they had a really cool concept for a new sci-fi exploration and then went… well, fuck, we’re almost out of time and we haven’t actually said anything yet. Let’s have a cop-out standard bullshit ending and call it a day.

  47. says

    Blitzgal:

    Oh, me, me!! That movie was so cool! I didn’t even understand it; I needed a cheat sheet. But then I watched it again to catch everything.

    I had to watch it twice. At least it made you think. Looper was so damn stupid.

  48. John Morales says

    Ogvorbis @39,

    Attempted humour fail. Out of Cheese Error. Sorry.

    I was being humorous too.

    —

    Perhaps consider this strategy: Unless you’re actually formally apologising for some transgression, try to avoid writing the word “sorry”, at least here in Thunderdome.

    (I think you have become reflexive about it)

  50. says

    Cerberus:

    It’s like they had a really cool concept for a new sci-fi exploration

    But they didn’t. It was just another gangster/mob movie. I’m supposed to believe that the mob got their hands on this [illegal] tech, but no one else did? Really? Every geek on the planet would have been after it.

  51. blitzgal says

    But they didn’t. It was just another gangster/mob movie. I’m supposed to believe that the mob got their hands on this [illegal] tech, but no one else did? Really? Every geek on the planet would have been after it.

    And they make such a big deal to tell us how carefully controlled and expensive the tech is, but of course these mobsters can just throw people back in time willy-nilly with nobody catching on.

  53. dobbshead says

    Ya’ll are trying way too hard to make Looper into something it’s not. It was a Bruce Willis action flick (and an enjoyable one at that) with a bit of sci-fi fun thrown in, not some deep meta-film project. I thought it was great in theaters, probably would be boring outside theaters. Maybe I’m biased because I don’t get out much and I went to see Looper with my wife on one of my few days off… naw, that’s not it. Ya’ll are just too picky.

  54. Ogvorbis says

    You have my sympathy, Cerberus. I triggered hard but, after throwing up, I felt better emotionally. I hope you find some way of (excuse the expression) getting it out of your system (that sounds flippant. not meant to be. I know the memories will still be there, but I hope you find a safe place to be you.)

  55. Ogvorbis says

    You have my sympathy, Cerberus. I triggered hard but, after throwing up, I felt better emotionally. I hope you find some way of (excuse the expression) getting it out of your system (that sounds flippant. not meant to be. I know the memories will still be there, but I hope you find a safe place to be you.)

  57. cm's changeable moniker says

    evangeline …? The Mission – Evangeline.

    I haven’t checked the tail of the last dome. I’m betting no more than 50/50 that it hasn’t been posted already. ;-)

    Right, that’s shit Friday dealt with. I depart.

  59. says

    Every time I see you post how you’re sorry, Og, I want to hug you. And please… don’t apologize. Here’s a kitty instead…

    http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a255/jimmyRRpage/kitten-hug_zpsa2d92d75.jpg (Linked because I don’t know how to embed images. Is that possible? How’s it done?)

    Also… am I the only one completely shocked at EllenBeth? I didn’t expect that at all. I don’t get it. She’s a feminist, right? I’ve seen her post in the past, I’ve seen her on the news here in Florida, and I never ever would have expected that from her.

    I remember reading a comment by someone yesterday about body-snatchers… I’m starting to wonder about that, too…

    Also, to those of you triggered by Matthew Best… I’m sorry for his shit, and I’m sorry it fucking took me (someone who doesn’t really have triggers as such) to get him to back off. I shouldn’t have had to plead for that… he should have backed off when others said what I did about the damage long before I said it. That’s not fair to all of you, the ones he should have listened to.

    I’m sorry.

  62. says

    Blitzgal:

    And they make such a big deal to tell us how carefully controlled and expensive the tech is, but of course these mobsters can just throw people back in time willy-nilly with nobody catching on.

    And never, ever fucked it all up, ’cause mobsters are all trained in using that sort of tech. :eyeroll: I kept having to bite my tongue and not constantly complain that such tech would be much more likely to end up in the hands of someone like Bill Gates.

  63. says

    dobbshead:

    Ya’ll are just too picky.

    Yeah, expecting some intelligence. What were we thinking?

    Marcus:

    Did you only watch Primer once? Because if you grokked it after one viewing, Imma rag on you a bit.

  64. cm's changeable moniker says

    I have no idea if my link in #57 works. If it does, good. If it doesn’t, feel free to Google, or not, as you wish.

    I have been trying and failing to install a new version of Flash.

    That Youtube is now inaccessible to me may well be a blessing to y’all. ;-)

  65. Callinectes says

    The thing that annoyed me most about Looper was that young Joe had attached earlobes and old Joe had free earlobes. Try explaining that.

  69. says

    Did you only watch Primer once? Because if you grokked it after one viewing, Imma rag on you a bit.

    I’ve watched it several times. I didn’t get the jokes in the coded signal until the 3rd try.

  71. says

    Marcus:

    I’ve watched it several times. I didn’t get the jokes in the coded signal until the 3rd try.

    :Phew: I rather dread running into someone who actually grokked it upon one viewing.

  72. Callinectes says

    He got his head caught in a rice picker as a child.

    I only ever saw OST when I was too young to form useful memories, and this is the only line I ever remembered from it.

  73. says

    Callinectes:

    I only ever saw OST when I was too young to form useful memories, and this is the only line I ever remembered from it.

    It’s the sort of line a sprog would remember. :D The City on the Edge of Forever is considered by many to be the very best of OST.

  77. Callinectes says

    I don’t know how I knew that. It must have been the rice picker line.

    Now that I think of it, I didn’t even remember the words “rice picker”. I didn’t know that that was, but assumed it to be some kind of machinery and thus didn’t log the actual words. So my actual memory seems to have been: “he got his head caught in a as a child”

  78. Callinectes says

    Oh I see, the > < tags make stuff invisible. My last post has a missing "mumble unknown machine mumble" in it somewhere.

  81. says

    Callinectes:

    Now that I think of it, I didn’t even remember the words “rice picker”. I didn’t know that that was, but assumed it to be some kind of machinery and thus didn’t log the actual words. So my actual memory seems to have been: “he got his head caught in a as a child”

    I couldn’t remember the title of the ep, so I had to look it up. The line was actually “He caught his head in a mechanical rice picker”.

  88. glodson says

    Daily reminder, 4chan has a /LGBT/ board

    Oh, thank god! That totally makes up for all the vile shit that goes on there.

  89. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    I’m back from finally getting sleep. Finishing the Adria Richards thread and I’m even more pissed.

    Fuck this, I’m going to get drunk.

  90. zytigon says

    Hi PZ, If all humans died this century then what would creatures have evolved to look like in 500 million years? What if all land mammals became extinct too ,what would we see after 500 million years ? Similar again ?
    Also do you think religious people should start by weighing the actions of their imagined gods by whether they act in accordance with the Golden Rule ( Matt 7v12 ). If the gods wouldn’t like to suffer after death then they should not let it happen to others. If they wouldn’t like to suffer as a real physical human then they should have acted to prevent it by revealing enough medical knowledge. Failure to do the good they should is sin according to James 4v17

  91. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    If all humans died this century then what would creatures have evolved to look like in 500 million years?

    Evolution isn’t directed. Random mutation followed by natural selection, so it can’t be predicted. All evolution is a species trying to adapt to the environment it is in. The basic templates (four legs and a tail) would likely be in effect for amphibians, reptiles, and mammals.

  93. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Nate:
    A fellow Floridian, eh? Cool.

    eh?

    You’re obviously an impostor. A Canadian posing as a Floridian.

    The jig is up.

  94. says

    I can’t be the only one who noticed the irony between PZ digitally time traveling to delete EU’s sock puppeted comments while simultaneously complaining that the young Bruce Willis offing himself should have destroyed the whole plot of the movie can I?

    Shouldn’t every reply to EU also be deleted in order for PZ to be consistent here? I mean what kind of hypocrite is this guy really? Say one thing and do another. /bad slymie impersonation.

  97. says

    Erik:

    Mornin Caine. *hands Caine a hot coffee and croissant

    Oh, thank you. I need that. Needed heavy meds to sleep at all, so med hangover today, can’t seem to wake up.

  98. zytigon says

    Hi Nerd of Redhead,
    Thanks for that. Suppose I was thinking along lines of after a nuclear winter there could still be more in the way of microscopic life than there was 500 million years ago so there might be a second chance for advanced , complex mammals even after that worst case scenario ?
    Maybe if the human race was mostly wiped out, even by an asteroid and lost it’s culture and technology then after 5 million years you could have something like mermaids- humans having gone back to the ocean like the pre whale species, ambulocetus did ? Suppose that is like the link ChasCPeterson left to Galapagos tale by Kurt Vonnegut
    Not totally impossible, just wildly improbable ?

  103. says

    Erik:

    Caine, yeah it was a rough night for a lot of folks I’m guessing, been a rough week, glad it’s over.

    Yeah, it’s been a shit week altogether. Here’s hoping PZ sticks to non-controversial topics today, like bad science and religion. ;) Better get the monster dogs outside, then get them fed.

  104. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    Good morning/afternoon peoples!
    I moaned and whinged through my french class this morning, but now I’m feeling good. Must be the delicious custard cake I’m making for later. I’ll send some via USB ports when it cools.

  107. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Not totally impossible, just wildly improbable ?

    Speculate all you want. I have better things to do. Doesn’t mean anything other than your amusement, or a sci-fi/fantasy novel.

  108. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    Forget it. I burned the puffy pastry. While writing a comment.

    *sigh*

    That will teach me. Oh well, you won’t mind getting just the custard?

  109. Amphiox says

    If all humans died this century then what would creatures have evolved to look like in 500 million years?

    Depending on when the critical threshold actually occurs (the currently debated range is somewhere between about 300 million to 1 billion years), life in 500 million years could all look like bacteria.

    The threshold being the point at which the sun’s natural increasing brightness with age, and the reactive fall in CO2 concentrations* in the Earth’s atmosphere reaches the point at which multicellular life no longer becomes sustainable on the planet.

    If that threshold is not in fact passed by 500 million years, another major threshold may have been reached – the threshold at which atmospheric CO2 falls too low for C3 photosynthesis. This would mean the end of most of the current diversity of plant life on earth, no more broad-leafed plants, trees, etc. Their niches will be taken over by the C4 photosynthesizing plants, which are mostly grasses. So most of the forests of the world may be made up of bamboo-like species. What impact this major transition in the plant world will have for the forms of the animals is hard to guess (there may be none).

    What if all land mammals became extinct too ,what would we see after 500 million years ? Similar again ?

    There would be an evolutionary free-for-all as the surviving lineages of amphibians, reptiles, and birds, competed to fill the megafauna niches vacated by the mammals. It would be analogous to the aftermaths of the Permian and KT mass extinctions. The range of forms would be dependent on the embryology of which lineages “win” this evolutionary competition. Some broad predictions could be tentatively made based on prior observations of these mass extinction events. The dominant creatures before the Permian mass extinction were synapsids, and they had body forms that were often broadly similar to modern mammals, which are also synapsids. After the Permian extinction, the new dominant group was the archosaurs, which are diapsids, and their basic body forms were quite different, and we ended up with very different creatures filling the same niches. The evolution of the basic dinosaurian bipedal bodyform in the Triassic, however, was not something that could have been predicted based on observing what was extant in the Permian. After the KT event, mammals became dominant, and to some extent, again in broad strokes, they recapitulated some of the forms seen among the synapsids in Permian, probably because mammals are also synapsids and thus have a synapsid embryology. Compare, for example, a gorgonopsian, a theropod dinosaur, and a big cat or dog. The two synapsid carnivores are more similar to one another than the diapsid carnivore, even though all three groups occupied the same niche. (ie the extent of convergent evolution of bodyform is dependent to a great degree of shared embryology)

    However, again, there was the develop of new forms that would not have been easily predicted based on extant life prior to the mass extinction. Think, for example, of kangaroos, bats, and primates.

    So if all land mammals went extinct and the lineage that takes their niches ends up being the birds, perhaps we might see some recapitulation of some of the body forms seen in the mesozoic among the non-avian dinosaurs, or the evolution of more large flightless birds like moas and terror birds.

    However, this is in a timeframe that would be seen in the tens of millions of years. With a 500 million year interval we would expect to have had probably several mass extinctions occur, each one resetting lifeforms in unique and unpredictable ways.

    *said process occurring on timescales that make it irrelevant to the current AGW issue

  114. Amphiox says

    Not totally impossible, just wildly improbable ?

    Think of it this way. Any one SPECIFIC evolutionary trajectory to any arbitrarily predetermined endpoint (ie anything you could imagine that isn’t ruled out by some law of physics or biology) is equally* wildly improbable. SOME of those trajectories are bound to occur, but predicting beforehand WHICH trajectories will occur is, to the say the least, a *difficult* exercise.

    *an oversimplification, of course. It is theoretically possible to stratify such probabilities to some extent, provided you have a LOT of information about the embryology of the various lineages and are able to predict accurately the kinds of selective pressures these lineages will face. But good luck with that!

  115. says

    Time travel stories annoy me.

    Why? Because Earth quite literally is never in the same place twice. We are whizzing around the sun at 60,000 km an hour. The sun is rotating around the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. The galaxy is speeding away from the “center” of the universe.

    If you were able to work out time travel, and went back only a few seconds, you’d find yourself in deep space. The further back you went the further away from Earth you’d be.

    You’d better have a pretty darn good improbability drive on that time travel machine — and an oxygen supply.

  116. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    Yay, glad to hear it! And custard is always good.

    I was complaining in french, so the teacher didn’t mind. ;)

    There will be extra custard for the ratties.

  119. says

    Beatrice:

    I was complaining in french, so the teacher didn’t mind. ;)

    Hahahahahahahahahaha. That’s the way to do it.

    There will be extra custard for the ratties.

    Oooh, they’ve never had custard.

  120. says

    Kevin @ #115…

    One would assume that any time travel machine would be able to locate the earth both in time and space, so you end up back on the earth wherever it was in space in the particular moment you’re heading back to.

    How would that be done in reality?

    Well, since I tend to think that time only moves in one direction, which is forward, and that the past no longer actually exists outside of the speed of light (that is, snapshots and the like… also memories, videos, etc) in our universe, I’d say it can’t be done at all…

    But since I’m not a theoretical physicist (though I do fail at trying to be sometimes :D.. if I could do math, it’s honestly what I would be… I absolutely adore thinking about this stuff), not only could I be wrong… I probably am wrong…

  124. UnknownEric: A Man, A Plan, A Canal, Panama? says

    Well, since I tend to think that time only moves in one direction, which is forward, and that the past no longer actually exists outside of the speed of light (that is, snapshots and the like… also memories, videos, etc) in our universe, I’d say it can’t be done at all…

    Like you, I’m not so good with the physics, but this is how I’ve felt for a long time. Doesn’t mean I’m right, but…

  125. says

    Nate:

    Well, since I tend to think that time only moves in one direction, which is forward

    There’s always the Troll’s beliefs in this matter (Discworld/multiverse): As the past, where we have been, can be ‘seen’, whereas the future, where we are going, lies in front of us, they logically conclude we are going through time facing backwards. Also, since they are a nocturnal race, the trollish equivalent of the “Dawn of Time” is the “Sunset of Time.”

  127. yazikus says

    erikthebassist, I didn’t realize they actually banned anyone. It baffles me that someone could be so dedicated to posting the way she was, I mean, the time actually spent.. Its just baffling.

  128. says

    Erik:

    It’s worth noting that EU / Eucliwood is one of very few (maybe the only?) person who has managed to get themselves banned from the pit.

    Yeah. For all the vaunted Freeze Peach!!1! they toss around, they’ve banned people and edited posts, such as the one with the death wishes on Marcotte.

  129. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Ewww. Eucliwood is now making words at me in my Twitter feed. Does anyone have a half-written piece of creepy real person slash fic I can throw at her to distract while I make my escape?

  130. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    Am I the only one who has no clue about what Eu talks about. Except that it tends to be fifty shades of creepy.

  131. says

    UnknownEric @ #124:

    Like you, I’m not so good with the physics, but this is how I’ve felt for a long time. Doesn’t mean I’m right, but…

    I mean, it makes sense, doesn’t it? There’s no reason to think we could somehow move backwards. I can’t even think of any logical way that we could, except for one…

    If the multiverse idea is true, and there are an actually infinite number of universes (something that honestly would not at all surprise me if true), it means that we are not actually unique at all in the multiverse, because no matter how rare you try to make humanity’s evolution, in an infinite amount of universes, there’ll be an infinte amount of our universe, our planet, and our civilization.

    Considering that, there’s an infinite number of trajectories for our civilization out there, including an infinite number of perfect copies of our civilization, as well as an infinite number of slightly different versions of our civilization. This means that there are definitely universes in which our civiliation, while on the same path, started out at a later date. So it’s concievable that you could travel to a universe where the year on earth right now is, say, August 15, 1969, and visit and experience the original Woodstock festival.

    However, you’re still in the present in the multiverse, so you didn’t actually travel back in time at all; you just traveled to universe that, while otherwise identical to ours, has a slightly later trajectory, putting them 43 years, 7 months, and 9 days behind us (counting from today, March 23, 2013), but otherwise everything else is exactly the same. Yes, it also means there are otherwise-identical universes that started before ours, so if you could visit them, you could see where our civilization is actually heading. If you were to come back here and change the course of our civilication because you didn’t like what you saw in that other universe, it wouldn’t cause any paradoxes or anything, because you never actually time-traveled. You stayed in the present the whole time, only moving through time as you percieve it. Plus, all your changing is our universe… that doesn’t change any of the others.

    Of course, finding these universes would be hard enough to make looking for a needle in a heystack impossibly simple by comparison, but still… it is theoretically possible… sort of…

    Caine @ #125:

    There’s always the Troll’s beliefs in this matter (Discworld/multiverse): As the past, where we have been, can be ‘seen’, whereas the future, where we are going, lies in front of us, they logically conclude we are going through time facing backwards. Also, since they are a nocturnal race, the trollish equivalent of the “Dawn of Time” is the “Sunset of Time.”

    Interesting, but the past can really only be “seen” with memories, photos, videos, historical accounts, lightspeed, etc… so when we “see” the past, we’re not really “seeing” the past as such, but seeing snapshots of the past… physical memories. IMO, the only thing that exists is the present. The past is gone, and the future doesn’t exist yet until it becomes the present. I should note that I’m talking about at the speed of space itself (beyond the speed of light) because space gets to the future long before we do (since space doesn’t actually have mass, it can move at an infinite speed, which is why, the further out into the universe you look, the faster space is expanding… thus, the universe is over 90-something billion lightyears across and growing even thought it’s only around 13.75 billion years old).

    Of course, I’m nitpicking a fictional idea from a series I seriously need to spend more time on. Is it weird that my introduction to Discworld was through the movie “The Hogfather”? I loved that matter, and that’s why I started reading a few of the Discworld books. I haven’t finished them, however… never even got close. I need to…

  134. says

    Is the ‘Dome the new Lounge now? :P

    I’m at work atm, note to self and others: Do not try to put your burning rubber shoe out with your hand!

  135. yazikus says

    rorschach: Duly noted. I think that is up there along with “Don’t jump in puddles you find near an outhouse” in my book of life rules.

  136. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    rorschach,

    Damn, you’re right. We’ve made the Thunderdome all fluffy and nice.

    Well, you know what? Fuck you, that’s what. [I’m sooo imaginative, I know.]

    Better now? ;)

    —
    I do not want to imagine that person’s hand. Ugh. Too late.

  137. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    I am a little freaked out by all of the offers of food through the port.

    I am not a particularly fluffy person.

  139. says

    Janine:

    I am a little freaked out by all of the offers of food through the port.

    Don’t be. It’s a good sign when those of us who have been badly triggered show interest in at least a virtual offering of food. I don’t dare actually eat yet.

  140. says

    I used to be infatuated with the Multiverse concept and string theory. I read all of Brian Green’s books and several other authors who wrote about it.

    Peter Woit from Not Even Wrong and the recent lack of evidence for super symmetry at CERN has me mostly convinced at this point that while producing useful mathematics, string theory is at this point is a bust as a theories go.

    Not that there aren’t other models that also predict a Multiverse, but M Theory was until 10 years ago the strongest of them.

  141. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    I do not venture into the Lounge because I do not fit into what it has become.

  143. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    Janine,

    Sorry. Will leave the food offerings for the Lounge or Chris’ fluffy thread.

  145. says

    Tony:

    Well if PZ picks science, maybe he can avoid EvoPsych.

    *Snorts* I’d prefer evo-psych to what he did just post. More depression I don’t need.

    Btw, how was yourbacon, croissant and coffee?

    On a virtual level, excellent. On a reality level, I need more tea.

  151. says

    Tony! The Queer Shoop (now with clucking lights)

    :::blinks::: you can get banned from the pit?

    From what I understand it was a combination of her being under age, making legal threats and trying to bait other people in to sexually explicit conversations or something along those lines.Don’t ask for any more details I can’t stand to go back and get slymed trying to find them.

  152. says

    erikthebassist @ #140…

    Honestly, don’t count it out just yet. The fact that the math works will always be a point in its favor.

    What theoretical physicists are looking for is something that is currently our of our grasp. String Theory is about the easiest attempt to explain something quite immense and complicated. Science requires experimentation, and the only way we’re going to get that is when we can actually leave our universe, which won’t happen for perhaps hundreds of thousands of years, and that’s assuming it’s even possible, which it might not be, which means the Theory of Everything could actually be forever beyond our reach (of course, I personally don’t think so, but there’s no logic against it).

    I hate to say it, but right now, the math is all we have to go on. The lack of evidence is simply because of the scope of the question it’s trying to answer. We’re not going to have scientific evidence for any candidate for the Theory of Everything for a very long time, so you really do have to go by the math alone right now.

    The reason I like the idea of membranes is largely because it’s beautiful and logical.

    Think about it like this:

    There are four things that are required for existence itself to be even remotely possible: time, space, matter, and energy. Thanks mainly to Einstein, we know that these are actually two things: spacetime and energy (of which matter is a form). I would argue that these four (or two) things have to have existed forever. Not even a supernatural, omnimax deity could have created them because even such a deity could not exist without them in the first place. Without spacetime, where and when would it move and act? Without energy, with what would it be made out of, and with what would it create?

    What the membrane idea does it give us a pretty clear and actually graspable picture of what spacetime and energy actually look like.

    On top of that, it could, possibly, provide an answer as to what dark matter and dark energy are. If our universe is the result of two membranes clashing, then dark matter might be the membrane itself, while dark energy is just the energy given off from that collision (our universe) doing what energy always does: dissipating.

    However, again, none of this has any scientific evidence, so yes, it could all be quite wrong. We won’t know that for an extremely long time, however, if at all, so all we’ve got is the math, and the math for the String and M Theories works the best right now. That could change in the future, but this is how it works.

    A lot of people like to say that we’re living in a golden age of physics right now, but we seem to forget that this is a golden age of theoretical physics. The golden age of experimental physics, at least as far as finding a Theory of Everything goes, will not be until we have a way of actually seeing and experimenting on the outside of our universe, or finding out that this isn’t possible.

  154. Pearson says

    Erik:

    From what I understand it was a combination of her being under age, making legal threats and trying to bait other people in to sexually explicit conversations or something along those lines.

    Isn’t she the one that wrote that creepy as hell slashfic about Jason Thibeault?

  155. says

    Considering the various things she’s written and the amount of places she’s been banned, it makes me wonder about her life so far. I have a feeling it hasn’t been exactly peachy.

  157. says

    Considering the various things she’s written and the amount of places she’s been banned, it makes me wonder about her life so far. I have a feeling it hasn’t been exactly peachy.

    I hesitate to engage in armchair psychiatry but it wouldn’t surprise me if your speculation is accurate. I sometimes feel sorry for her. She clearly needs some guidance and hand holding at the very least. I remember being 16, 17 years old. I’m almost glad there wasn’t an internet for me to go out in and make a fool of myself on because I certainly would have.

  158. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    Pearson, yes, she is. Even better, she asked Jason Thibeault if she could use his name to write crappy fiction that deals with her frustrations with FtB.

    She left some interesting, um, stuff on Zinnia’s blog last night.

  161. Pearson says

    Caine:

    I’ve been reading Misogyny: The World’s Oldest Prejudice as was recommended by (I believe) you and someone else. Was Manhood in America the other one you had recommended? Is there another one I’m missing?

  162. says

    Amphiox

    So most of the forests of the world may be made up of bamboo-like species. What impact this major transition in the plant world will have for the forms of the animals is hard to guess

    Pandas everywhere! Pandas with jetpacks, jumping from bamboo grove to bamboo grove. Pandas building space armadas to conquer new planets for bamboo-growing.

    A Galactic Panda Empire, ruled by the Panda Potentate from his bamboo throne on Panda Prime!

  164. says

    Pearson:

    Was Manhood in America the other one you had recommended?

    Yes.

    Is there another one I’m missing?

    Esteleth recommended Guyland, also by Kimmel. I downloaded that to my nook and read it. It’s worth reading.

  166. says

    @Janine
    Pun + Hitchhiker’s reference. I’m afraid that’s a two-minute penalty. But you get to feel awesome while in the box.

  167. cm's changeable moniker says

    I am reading the dome forwards for once. Things will be dealt with in order.

    the trollish equivalent of the “Dawn of Time” is the “Sunset of Time.”

    :-)

    One of my favourite bits of Pratchett:

    ‘So you’re Rincewind the wizard,’ said the nearest one. It sounded like someone running over gravel. ‘I dunno. I thought you’d be taller.’

    ‘Perhaps he’s eroded a bit,’ said another one. ‘The legend is awfully old.’

    Rincewind shifted awkwardly. He was pretty certain the rock he was sitting on was changing shape, and a tiny troll — hardly any more than a pebble — was sitting companionably on his foot and watching him with extreme interest.

    ‘Legend?’ he said. ‘What legend?’

    ‘It’s been handed down from mountain to gravel since the sunset* of time,’ said the first troll. “When the red star lights the sky Rincewind the wizard will come looking for onions. Do not bite him. It is very important that you help him stay alive.”

    There was a pause.

    ‘That’s it?’ said Rincewind.

    ‘Yes,’ said the troll. ‘We’ve always been puzzled about it. Most of our legends are much more exciting. It was more interesting being a rock in the old days.’

    ‘It was?’ said Rincewind weakly.

    ‘Oh yes. No end of fun. Volcanoes all over the place It really meant something being a rock then. There was none of this sedimentary nonsense, you were igneous or nothing. Of course, that’s all gone now. People call themselves trolls today, well, sometimes they’re hardly more than slate. Chalk even. I wouldn’t give myself airs if you could use me to draw with, would you?’

    ‘No,’ said Rincewind quickly. ‘Absolutely not, no. This, er, legend thing. It said you shouldn’t bit me?’

    ‘That’s right!’ said the little troll on his foot, ‘and it was me who told you where the onions were!’

    * An interesting metaphor. To nocturnal trolls, of course, the dawn of time lies in the future

  168. Pearson says

    Esteleth recommended Guyland, also by Kimmel. I downloaded that to my nook and read it. It’s worth reading.

    Excellent. I knew I remembered reading another recommendation. Of course, I also knew that if I tried to go looking for it, I’d get lost in comment sections for days.

  169. says

    On a more serious note, I’m just getting caught up on the Richards thread. I’m only in the 200’s and it’s already looking like a bomb went off in the manure tank.

  170. says

    LykeX:

    On a more serious note, I’m just getting caught up on the Richards thread. I’m only in the 200′s and it’s already looking like a bomb went off in the manure tank.

    It gets worse.

  174. Amphiox says

    Pandas everywhere! Pandas with jetpacks, jumping from bamboo grove to bamboo grove. Pandas building space armadas to conquer new planets for bamboo-growing.

    A Galactic Panda Empire, ruled by the Panda Potentate from his bamboo throne on Panda Prime!

    Don’t forget, Wushu Pandas.

    (Because Kung Fu Panda is already taken.)

  178. Esteleth, stupid fucking starchild Tolkien worshiping douche says

    Can I grump AGAIN about how I go to FTB on my phone and get the non-mobile version and go to FTB on my computer and get the mobile version?!

    WTF! Fix this.

  184. Esteleth, stupid fucking starchild Tolkien worshiping douche says

    Fun fact: there is a standard clip-art of lab rodents used in scientific literature. Namely this one.

    I have seen that clip-art in DOZENS of papers.

  186. Esteleth, stupid fucking starchild Tolkien worshiping douche says

    And yet it seems to be standard. Odd.

    An actual figure I’ve seen is [mouse]+/-♀ + [mouse]+/-♂ -> [mouse]-/- + [mouse] +/+.

    [mouse]+/+ then goes to [upside down mouse], which leads to [graph] via [brain].

    Not an actual data graph, a clip-art graph. I boggled.

  188. indicus says

    Assault weapons ban is dead as a dodo. Suck it, bleeding hearts. Discuss amongst yourselves.

  190. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Assault weapons ban is dead as a dodo. Suck it, bleeding hearts. Discuss amongst yourselves.

    Discuss your lack of following gun safety rules by yourself. What an abject fool you are.

  191. says

    I feel like I’ve been beaten into the ground with a decayed porcupine. Think I need a few days away. Mister will be home tomorrow night, so it’s a good time for a bit of a break.

  192. John Morales says

    indicus:

    Assault weapons ban is dead as a dodo. Suck it, bleeding hearts. Discuss amongst yourselves.

    Foolish people spend resources and reassure and entertain themselves with tools of death; nothing new there. Bah.

    (What’s to discuss?)

  193. zhuge, le homme blanc qui ne sait rien mais voudrait says

    Yes, I suppose the consequence of the failed assault weapons ban would be a number of sucking wounds in bleeding hearts, the bleeding hearts of 6 year old children, moviegoers, firefighters, college students, highschool students, women working out in a gym, government employees.

    By which I mean, do go fuck yourself indicus.

  194. Lofty says

    @John Morales

    There’s a Sickerdick Street in Mannum (South Australia).

    On he origin of the word “dick”
    The Cobbledicks are another good settler family with a road in Echunga named after them.
    Dick = penis dates to around 1890 according to the link.
    .
    indicus:
    Go fondle your dick, I mean your assault weapon. Bound to make you feel good.

  196. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    I hope indicus is brave to crow about this the next time there is a mass murder committed in mere minutes using assault weapons.

    Sandy Hook is but a small sacrifice for the sake of FREEDOM!

  197. zytigon says

    Hi Amphiox,
    Brilliant answer , well impressed thanks.
    Do you think it would be possible to grow ivory in place of cattle horn if the elephant ivory genes were somehow transferred into the cattle ? Possible but just uneconomic to develop. Would it cost $50 million ?

  199. left0ver1under says

    Another day, another example of Russia being a rogue state run by criminals and oligarchs: billionaire Boris Berezovsky, one of Vladimir Putin’s political opponents, was found dead this weekend.

    Given Scotland Yard’s history of laziness, ineptitude and coverups when investigating alleged “suicides” (e.g. Roberto Calvi, David Kelly), don’t be surprised if this death gets swept under the carpet as well.

  200. says

    You know, I can’t help but giggle a little when I see the slymers so desperately fight for Michael Nugent’s soul. It reminds me of Christian missionaries trying to convert the natives in the jungles of Borneo a few centuries ago.

    And even associate slymer Russell Blackford has now discovered the 2 year old “Dublin Declaration”, and is praising it on his blog and in tweets as the hottest shit going around.

    You’d have to laugh if it wasn’t such a sad and pathetic spectacle.

  201. says

    Assault weapons ban is dead as a dodo. Suck it, bleeding hearts. Discuss amongst yourselves.

    Ever since the hint of restrictions on guns & magazines there has been panic buying of all manner of weapons.

    You know who hears news and panics?

    Why, brave rugged individualists, that’s who!

  202. says

    I tried to talk to one gun nut using statistics, a gun you own being more likely to be used to shoot you than protect you, etc.

    I tried to use the example of airplane flights being safer than the drive to the airport.
    He kept saying over and over again “maybe, but at least when you’re driving there’s a chance you can DO something!”

    I couldn’t get across to him that we are talking about car accident deaths versus airplane accident deaths… that no, once you are dead you do NOT have a chance to “do something.” “Do something” has already been taken into account and excluded from the “you’re now dead” figure.

    He just kept saying “yeah, but in a car you can at least DO SOMETHING.”

    The other thing that always came up with everyone I argued with about guns as their last line of defense was “when society collapses and hordes of maniacs are trying to kill you, don’t try knocking on MY door.”

    Yeah, they’re brave. Living in the most powerful nation the world has ever seen and still terrified that everything is going to collapse into chaos any day now.

    And am I wrong in suspecting that these people don’t picture the hordes of maniacs just waiting for the chance to kill and rape and steal as being caucasian?

  203. Amblebury says

    When I was down in Dunedin recently I saw an Ings Avenue. I should have taken a photo.

  204. says

    There’s a street sign near here which perplexes me for two reasons.
    One, the name – Methanol.
    Second, because there’s no street there. Just a parking lot, what might have been a street cut off when a freeway was built through, but I can’t find any record of such an old street.

    It wouldn’t be too odd, since the area was once industrial, and Pullman had a plant there, there was a town (now a neighborhood) called Pullman. Lots of strange things like that around here.

  205. says

    He just kept saying “yeah, but in a car you can at least DO SOMETHING.”

    I think the point of that is that he’s convinced that he can pull off some macho, he-man, action hero bullshit and ensure that he’ll defy all statistics. He’s not like those other people who practically allow themselves to be killed in car crashes. He’ll resist and persevere.

    I get the feeling that these people, not unreasonably, put a high premium on being able to take initiative and be active. I think they probably feel very confident that they can deal with whatever as long as they’ve got a few options. As a result, what terrifies them is not being in a dangerous situation, but being in a situation where they can’t do anything; where they’re helpless and just along for the ride.

    This is in itself not a problem, but if it’s exaggerated to the point where you’re ignoring reality in favor of some batman-like fantasy world, it’ll have the opposite effect; rather than empowering you to deal with adversity, it will cause you to ignore very real dangers and get yourself into situations that you only later, too late, find out are beyond your ability to deal with.

  206. FossilFishy(Anti-Vulcanist) says

    “when society collapses and hordes of maniacs are trying to kill you, don’t try knocking on MY door.”

    Heh. I always love this line. My response is: You know what? In the extremely unlikely event of that happening I’m going to get as far the fuck away from you as I can. Lone survivalists aren’t the heroes who will save civilisation, they’re fucking targets for any organised group who wants their stuff.

  207. Amphiox says

    Assault weapons ban is dead as a dodo.

    It isn’t.

    And never will be so long as there remains democracy in America.

  208. says

    Hi everyone!

    I thought that I would resurface to let you know that I am trying to see if the A+ forums are a good home for a Rhetorical Assassins Guild.
    http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4314

    Background included in the A+ thread but essentially it involves getting together a group of people who are good with skepticism, logic, and rhetoric and organizing them into a volunteer “Harassment reaction force” that practices neutral hyper-criticism. Secondarily it would be used to train people in such techniques, dissect proposed techniques, and modify anything I am proposing since it is a group effort. The most important skill is being able to kill your own mistaken ideas and beliefs.

    Fun is encouraged but has to be had ethically :)

  209. Amphiox says

    Do you think it would be possible to grow ivory in place of cattle horn if the elephant ivory genes were somehow transferred into the cattle ?

    Doubtful you would need any elephant ivory genes, or even if there is any such thing.

    Ivory is basically just enamel, and pretty much all vertebrates have the genes for that.

    But if you look at the history of humanity’s use of enamel, why it first became valued for practical reasons, and then later became a luxury good, you will find that for all the properties of ivory that made it useful, we already have a modern synthetic substance that possesses all those properties and is even better than ivory in most of them.

    It’s called plastic.

    And the reason elephant ivory became and remains a desirable luxury item has only a little to do with it being ivory, and much more to do with it being from an elephant.

    So even if you could genetically engineer a cow to have an ivory horn (which is tricky because elephant tusks are teeth and cattle horns are decidedly not teeth – you’d have more luck engineering a sabre-toothed cow to harvest from) it would not really be commercially viable, or be a market alternative that could reduce the demand for illegal elephant ivory. It would not work for the same reason that prior attempts to make shark-fin substitute from cow ears (both are just cartilage) did not work, and why walrus ivory does not diminish the demand for elephant ivory.

  211. says

    Beatrice:

    Thanks for the rattie photos!

    You’re welcome! Beatrice is so beautiful and photogenic, I love being able to get photos of her. She is so damn fast, I rarely get them.

  212. says

    Ah, Indicus the irrational gun nut returns to taunt progressives about how destructive weapons will continue to be legal despite the fact that no one needs them.

    Is Pharyngula infected with a new strain of trollish stupidity?

  213. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    Is Pharyngula infected with a new strain of trollish stupidity?

    No. Because PZ and most members of the horde are apologetically liberal, if not out right leftist, this is a convenient place for reactionaries to come and try to taunt. I guess that Indicus seems to think that we would be wailing and gnashing teeth over this.

  214. says

    There’s already something out there for people who want something like ivory but don’t like plastic.
    Tagua nuts. They even use them for scrimshaw and button making.

  215. says

    hOW MANY tAGUAS HAVE TO BE CASTRATED JUST SO YOU CAN ENJOY YOUR SCRIMSHAW, jAFAFA hOTS?

    Heh. Didn’t notice I had Caps Lock on. I could change it pretty easily but it looks good and stupid so I’ll let it be.

  218. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    I just saw this being Tweeted about.

    Why bosses are right to distrust women who don’t want children… by a VERY outspoken mother (and ex-boss)

    Much as I like to trumpet the importance of a woman’s right to choose all things at all times, there’s one choice I simply cannot understand: the choice of an otherwise sane and healthy woman not to have children.

    If a would-be mother is a singleton of 40 who decides to have a baby without a partner, I might wish she’d thought of it sooner and prepared for it better – but I understand.

    If she’s half of a lesbian couple who ‘borrows’ the wherewithal, I might cross my fingers that the child is not teased at school – but I understand. Even if she’s a 66-year- old pregnant pensioner, threatening to turn motherhood into a freak show, I might (indeed, I do) think she’s monstrously selfish and dangerously wrong – but again, more or less, I understand.

    Yet if she says she hasn’t a shred of maternal feeling in her, moreover, if she says she would prefer to concentrate on her career and that a child would only get in the way of it, then my head might acknowledge her right to do so. But my heart whispers: ‘Lady, you’re weird.’

    It was welcome news, therefore, to discover this week that I am not alone. Research conducted over six years shows that far from bosses and colleagues always being suspicious of a working mother, the opposite is becoming true: it is the childless woman who is regarded as cold and odd.

    Remember, ladies; if you do not want to have children, there is something very wrong with you. And you should be stigmatized.

  219. Portia says

    First, I’d like to whisper back at the author… “Lady, you’re an asshole.”
    Then there’s this:

    As a result, it is these single-track careerists who are increasingly likely to be vilified, refused jobs and denied promotion because many employers believe them to lack what the study calls ‘an essential humanity’. And I know exactly what they mean.

    So…I’m not even human at my essence? WTF.

  220. says

    Yet if she says she hasn’t a shred of maternal feeling in her, moreover, if she says she would prefer to concentrate on her career and that a child would only get in the way of it, then my head might acknowledge her right to do so. But my heart whispers: ‘Lady, you’re weird.’

    Yes, there are all manner of you assholes running around. I do wish you’d all shut the fuck up and engage your brain. For once.

    It was welcome news, therefore, to discover this week that I am not alone. Research conducted over six years shows that far from bosses and colleagues always being suspicious of a working mother, the opposite is becoming true: it is the childless woman who is regarded as cold and odd.

    Idiot. Prospective bosses have always been suspicious of women who say they don’t have sprogs because they think a woman will get pregnant, then leave. “Cold and odd”? Yeah, just ball bustin’ bitches who want to be men, amirite?

    *spits*

  221. says

    As a result, it is these single-track careerists who are increasingly likely to be vilified, refused jobs and denied promotion because many employers believe them to lack what the study calls ‘an essential humanity’. And I know exactly what they mean.

    Oh, I can translate this, I’ve heard this crap for over 3 decades: soulless. We haz no soul, just narsty bitches who haven’t properly sublimated their passion, so we’re dangerous. Pandora & Eve all wrapped up together.

  223. Ogvorbis says

    I’m impressed. So women are not trusted for advancement because they might have children and drop out. But if they don’t want children, they are single track careerists who may not even be human? Can you say, Catch-22? I thought you could.

  224. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    The beauty lies in the simplicity of design. One can use either end of the stick in order to beat the woman.

  225. The Mellow Monkey says

    The remarkable thing is that reading that actually left me with the desire to carve out my ovaries out of pure spite. Ugh.

  226. Portia says

    Unwoman…sounds about right. I’ve heard that sort of thing lobbed my way more than once.

  227. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    The Mellow Monkey,

    Yeah, I’m more or less undecided on the kids having, but I too felt a sudden desire to strike the idea completely just so that assholes like that wonder about me. Am I an emotionless machine who is going to murder them with a stapler or not?

  228. Pearson says

    Wow, that article filled me with no end of rage. There really is no way for women to win. Blech.

  229. Portia says

    Beatrice:
    I laughed aloud at the stapler bit.

    (I’m undecided as well about kids. Largely depends on whether I find anyone worth parenting with, I suppose. /digression).

  230. burgundy says

    Wait- it is “welcome news” to her that a group faces widespread job discrimination? Just because she thinks we’re weird? Lady, there is someone here who’s lacking humanity, but it’s not me.

  231. says

    many employers believe them to lack what the study calls ‘an essential humanity’

    Are those the same employers that will justify paying women less by arguing that maternity leave makes women less reliable as employees?

  232. The Mellow Monkey says

    Yeah, I had the same thought, burgundy.

    “I’ve long felt that [Group X] is lacking in humanity. Boy, was I happy to find out there are a lot of other bigots out there!”

  233. carlie says

    Ha ha, this is too funny. So I’ve had it with all the rape culture apologia on the internet, so have been staying away a bit! And decided to watch The Amazing Race tonight, except it was running late and instead 60 minutes was still on, and I got to watch… a heartwarming and tragic tale of a high school football player accused of rape who went to jail for 2 years and then it turned out the girl was totally lying and he caught her on hidden camera saying so and so he got exonerated and then he got to go try out for the NFL and it was all so great! What an appropriate story to be running right now after the latest in all the news, to reinforce that football players are awesome and bitches be lyin! HAHAHA fuck everything.

  234. says

    Carlie:

    I got to watch… a heartwarming and tragic tale of a high school football player accused of rape who went to jail for 2 years and then it turned out the girl was totally lying and he caught her on hidden camera saying so and so he got exonerated and then he got to go try out for the NFL and it was all so great! What an appropriate story to be running right now after the latest in all the news, to reinforce that football players are awesome and bitches be lyin! HAHAHA fuck everything.

    Great. Just fucking great.

    :wanders off to go sink her head into a wall:

  235. Portia says

    Carlie:

    That’s just…unconscionable.
    If they’re so super concerned about injustice in the criminal system, there are about a million more appropriate stories to run with. Fuck.

    Just fuck.

  236. says

    Cerberus, I want to say thank you. I’ve found myself completely emotionally exhausted the last day or two, so not only thank you for continuing to fight the good fight in the most outstanding way, but also thank you for always giving me a raging brainer and making me think. You renew my spirit.

  237. Hekuni Cat, MQG says

    Horde,

    Thank you to everyone who battled the trolls in the Richards and other threads recently. Your efforts are deeply appreciated.

  238. says

    Background included in the A+ thread but essentially it involves getting together a group of people who are good with skepticism, logic, and rhetoric and organizing them into a volunteer “Harassment reaction force” that practices neutral hyper-criticism.

    Huh? I’ve just about seen enough of this movement to switch off my blog, ask my money back from the next Women in Secularism conference and leave the field to Dawkins, Thunderdolt, Grothe, Hale and Blackford, so thanks but no thanks. Not if you paid me.

    Oh, also, “neutral hyper-criticism”. What on earth?

  239. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    Now that I’ve caught up in Richards thread a bit, standing ovation for Cerberus is in order!

  242. says

    Caine @236

    Aw, thank you. Sorry for the late response. I’ve been flitting in and out of the threads while spending a nice relaxing day hanging out with my partners and being generally plague-filled.

    The Richards threads are a real soul-puncher overall, so many fuckers continuing the harassing tactics against any who would move to solidarity. I cannot wait until those tactics begin to weigh more heavily on those attempting them than those they attempt them against.

    OT and TRIGGER WARNING: While I was cuddling with my secondary, she ended up at one point, asleep and wrapped around my left thigh. Now maybe it was the position (that was the thigh that my rapist rubbed himself off with) or dealing with the triggers of the Richards bullshit (I was raped at a convention during a panel), but when I tried to shut my eyes to drift off with her for a short nap, I was right back there and that panel was there every time I closed my eyes.

    But. Positive spin on that. I stayed awake instead. I reminded myself that this time I was consenting to someone I like to be there in that position. That it was someone I loved, not my rapist and that I wasn’t actually back there. I kept reminding myself of it and I was able to stay awake and enjoy the sensation and presence for a good while until I started getting a leg cramp. So yay on that!

  243. says

    Cerberus:

    I kept reminding myself of it and I was able to stay awake and enjoy the sensation and presence for a good while until I started getting a leg cramp. So yay on that!

    Serious progress, yay! I’m really happy that turned out well for you. We all deserve moments like that, and lots of them, after this last week. It’s been loathsome asshole overload around here.

  245. Asher Kay says

    Yeah, seriously thanks, Cerberus. I’ve been commenting here and elsewhere over the weekend, and it is really depressing me. I have two teenage daughters, and they’re going to go out into the world and run into this huge wall of sickness? I was teaching one of my daughters programming, too. Starting to think that’s a bad idea.

    Anyway, your comments, especially the long one on the Richards thread, made me feel hopeful, if only briefly. Thanks.

  246. John Morales says

    rorschach,

    Oh, also, “neutral hyper-criticism”. What on earth?

    Pharyngula-style fisking. ;)

  248. says

    John,

    for one, it doesn’t sound like “Pharyngula-style fisking” to me at all when I read up on it in the forum post linked, more like the unholy inquisition. And that term “neutral hyper-skepticism” rather reminds me of Richard Feynman recalling the time he went to a philosophy lecture during his grad years at (I think) Princeton, when he was asked to comment on some terminus technicus they were discussing(I think it was “effective something”, can’t remember exactly), and he asked the professor and students “Is a brick an effective object”, and chaos ensued.

    But then, I’m damned grumpy right now and overtired after night shift, so feel free to ignore me.

  249. John Morales says

    rorschach, I was a shiftworker for over 12 years, so I can sympathise.

    (Also, a much less stressful job)

    Anyway, if you missed it (and for anyone else) here’s : Brony’s proposition, as initially presented.

    (Quite a decent presentation, really)

  250. says

    Brony’s proposition, as initially presented.

    I think wowbagger, aratina and others are filling that role already. I recently rediscovered a little fervor myself, but it has drained from me like pus from a boil. Just let them have their win, really, it won’t be 5 years until the decent people finally go “what the fuck white man” and get their act together, at least I hope so. But I can’t do it right now, not with the pushback as strong as it is and even allies like Nugent being forced into discussions with slyme. My conclusion is that movement atheism has the leaders and spokespeole it deserves and wants at this point. I’ll just go back to blogging about Linux and Star Trek, and watch the Cricket. I think.

  251. Gen, Uppity Ingrate. says

    Just wanted to say: Cerberus, you fucking rock harder than a rock star. You have an incredible way with words and expressing complicated concepts clearly.

    You are incredible.

    K, I’ll turn off the fangurl now. Proceed back to your normal programming.

  253. says

    You have to watch this!

    John Cleese and Michael Palin discussing “The Life of Brian” with some Christian numbskulls on the BBC back in the days. It’s just awesome.

  256. thumper1990 says

    God dammit! I want that bunny pic from the top of the thread for my avatar but it’s not working *grumble*

  257. says

    @ rorschach 238

    Huh? I’ve just about seen enough of this movement to switch off my blog, ask my money back from the next Women in Secularism conference and leave the field to Dawkins, Thunderdolt, Grothe, Hale and Blackford, so thanks but no thanks. Not if you paid me.

    Fair enough. I’m not going to judge anyone who does not want to fight (I have no illusions about what it is, neutrality or no). But the organizational aspects might be beneficial when it comes to talking shop and identifying new kinds of stereotyped dishonest behavior.

    Oh, also, “neutral hyper-criticism”. What on earth?

    What John Morales said. It is essentially a take-down but in a focused and stereotyped form. After all this time I almost do all my commenting in that form so I actually have to make an effort to be less critical sometimes XD

    I say it’s neutral because I don’t use it unless I see a real, objective thing that I can logically criticize so that it is legitimate criticism. Did they quote the person when they described their comment? No? “Zap”, assertion and avoidance of obligation to make an argument. Did they selectively respond to the other person’s points? Yes? “Zap”, demonstrate the cowardice. Do they complain about not wanting to get into a debate in public? Too fucking bad I have speech rights too and they are the ones who started engaging in the activity to begin with.

    I’m starting to wonder just how easy it would be to make a bulleted list of their strategies and the best responses since it does get pretty robotic. But to defeat human psychology I’m wondering if organizing resistance on a group level will be effective. This is rational.

    248

    for one, it doesn’t sound like “Pharyngula-style fisking” to me at all when I read up on it in the forum post linked, more like the unholy inquisition. And that term “neutral hyper-skepticism” rather reminds me of Richard Feynman recalling the time he went to a philosophy lecture during his grad years at (I think) Princeton, when he was asked to comment on some terminus technicus they were discussing(I think it was “effective something”, can’t remember exactly), and he asked the professor and students “Is a brick an effective object”, and chaos ensued.

    That is not entirely fair to use the term “unholy inquisition” when I have real words on the other side of that link. I understand that your experience with what I describe is less than friendly, but I am being very specific with what I propose. I am willing to take criticism. In fact I think criticism will only improve the idea.

    @John Morales 249

    (Quite a decent presentation, really)

    I have you to thank for that in part. Part of what I am includes quite a bit of noise upstairs. Often I have all the pieces, but I have trouble getting them in the right order. TS is a little like having a toddler’s emotions overlayed over a “normal” adults. I have to pick through the impulses when it comes to appropriateness from time to time :P

  258. kasi1985 says

    I was debating on whether to put this here or the Lounge… I figured I’d better err on the side of caution and put it here. I’ve been a lurker for ~5 years, following PZ around metaphorically on the internet but not feeling like I had anything good enough to add or that my skin was thick enough to comment here. But I decided I’d risk it and share this from Kirk Cameron’s Facebook page. He came to my hometown of Odessa, TX last night, and posted a picture of himself with a monument to the 10 commandments at the hotel he stayed at. I apologize for not being sure how to post a link directly to the picture and description, but it’s one of the top posts on his page. Here are his words, and I’m sorry if I bork the blockquote, I’ve never done this before.

    Check out this huge stone monument at the front door of the hotel I checked into… tonight in Odessa. This is the #1 city for jobs in the US (lots of new found oil)! Try to tell this hotel owner in West Texas to remove these commandments and I’m pretty sure a good ol’ boy down here would be willing to make an exception for the 6th commandment just for you… Don’t mess with Texas! Our marriage events were a blast and my son and I are headed home tomorrow. Can’t wait to see my bride and babies…

    http://www.facebook.com/therealkirkcameron?fref=ts

    I know it’s not surprising that he’s a hypocrite, but it is disappointing to see my friends and family sharing this pic and agreeing with him.

  259. Ogvorbis says

    kasi1985:

    Try to tell this hotel owner in West Texas to remove these commandments

    Your friends and family do realize that a hotel is private, not government, and therefore displaying this version of the ten commandments is not a violation of the US Constitution? Or am I reading this wrong.

  260. UnknownEric: A Man, A Plan, A Canal, Panama? says

    I have to step away from the Adria Richards threads for a few. The repetition and blatant assholery of our new “friends” is killing me.

  261. glodson says

    It is like they think if they repeat it often enough, it will become magically true.

  262. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    I am currently at the bitterly amused stage. They are wrong and harmful, but they are also really pathetic. I laugh at them so that I wouldn’t cry.

  263. glodson says

    You know, I was largely clueless about these issues for a very long time. I fucked up, and made mistakes.

    But shit, at my worst, I was never like that. It is funny to see the different flavors. There’s the “I’m the real feminist” here kind of person who argues that calling out the behavior is sexist, and the “they are just nerds” person who excuses the behavior because nerds, and there’s the “it was just a joke” asshole who is an asshole.

  264. mythbri says

    I put a link to a piece by Amanda Marcotte in PZ’s “Get ’em young” thread, and I forgot to put a trigger warning on it.

    Trigger Warning for descriptions of animal abuse, rape culture and victim-blaming.

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/25/if-only-we-could-talk-about-abusing-women-like-we-do-abusing-cats/

    I know that people here are tired of de-humanizing analogies, but I actually think Marcotte handled this very well, and made it clear that she was speaking about perception and culture shifts, not directly comparing women to cats.

    Avoid the comments if you’re tired of equivocation and bullshit.

  265. says

    @Ogvorbis

    Your friends and family do realize that a hotel is private, not government, and therefore displaying this version of the ten commandments is not a violation of the US Constitution?

    I’d very much doubt it. People who make a stink about these things are usually quite ignorant of these basic distinctions. You’ll find the same blurring of lines with regard to nativity scenes (on private vs. public property), school prayer (individuals praying in school vs. official school lead prayer), teaching Christianity (teaching the facts vs. preaching), etc.
    It’s all part of the Christian persecution complex. Once you’ve framed yourself as the poor oppressed minority, you can then justify any attack on the opposition as valiantly fighting back. That’s why I doubt that Kurt sees the 6th commandment thing as hypocrisy. He’s not talking about killing; it’s self-defense. Those damn atheist bastards started it.

    This is not exclusive to religion, but Christianity certainly appears to have made an artform of this.

  266. calicocat says

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/03/24/ars-technica-weighs-in-on-adria-richards-and-flaunts-a-double-standard/comment-page-1/#comment-587884

    This was posted by Ing on the second Adria Richards thread and I wanted to just toss a bit of a personal anecdote in here so I wouldn’t start a derail.

    I think all us geeks need to write an open letter of apology to all the times we looked down on jocks and inform the jocks that if this behavior is standard for the social awkward misfits they are 100% justified in stuffing every geek they see into a locker. Please continue the swirlies and book dumping and pantsing it’s clearly retroactive karma

    And I know it was sarcasm and exasperation, but whenever I see mysoginy in geek and nerd circles, and nice guys start in on the whole “the jocks bullied me wah” it makes me so incredibly angry and frustrated. I just start to get so pissed off at this because it was these same nerdy/geeky nice guy types who bullied me so much I found refuge in athletics and playing sports. They were really nice to me… it was the ‘dumb jock comunity’ where i built my self esteem by coaching others and helping others improve their preformances through positive encouragement rather than doing things the kind of things the nerdy guys did like insulting the people who struggled in school for being stupid.

    And I want to just yell this to them (the part about my experience, not necessarily the quoted bit lol) to spite them I guess, but at the same time I do know any amount of bullying is painful and I don’t want to dismiss their experiences and hurt people. Doubly so on feminist oriented sites, since we all know this and it doesn’t need to be said were not all like that etc…

    But its exactly because they use this to excuse their mysoginistic and racist behaviour, and it makes me sick that so much geek/nerd community bonding seems to be bashing sports and berating people they consider stupid… Not coincidentally that usually means ‘stupid girl stuff’ as well.

    I didn’t want this to be a ‘but we’re not all like that post…’, I just wanted a ‘fuck these guys excusing their sexism by pretending they’re not the status quo’ post. :( I’m sorry if this post comes out weird in format or is a wall of text I’ve got badly arthritic hands and I’m using a tablet and ugh It’s super frustrating trying to make good posts.

  267. glodson says

    Goddamnit.

    I told myself that I was just going to check out the blog while I watched a longish Dark Souls video. But then I read the trolls, and I just had to keep trying to fight the stupid.

    What a disgusting group of idiots, they just blunder in. I don’t even get why they do this. Maybe they think they are doing well. And one won’t even quote the people he’s talking to, which likely won’t help anyways with his incoherent mess of posts.

  268. UnknownEric: A Man, A Plan, A Canal, Panama? says

    calicocat, even as someone who was bullied by “the jocks,” I agree with you 100%. Having some basic human decency shouldn’t be such a difficult thing, and I’m just blown away by all the people willing to justify their own jerkiness by saying, “Well, someone else was a jerk to me, so it’s okay.”

  269. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    glodson,

    I was supposed to do some workout and then maybe watch an episode of X-Files, but I’m stuck here too.

  271. kasi1985 says

    @ Ogvorbis and LykeX:

    What’s odd is, no one has ever had a problem or said anything to the hotel owner about displaying this. Kirk Cameron just said something about it as if it’s been as issue. That same monument used to stand in our mall, also owned by that same hotel owner, and no one ever said anything about it there either. What bothered me was ‘making an exception to the 6th commandment’ coming from Kirk Cameron…

  275. UnknownEric: A Man, A Plan, A Canal, Panama? says

    Cerberus: You have been tearing up the joint lately! Thank you for taking these jerks to task.

  276. UnknownEric: A Man, A Plan, A Canal, Panama? says

    Holy fuck, the assholes just keep coming.

    It’s disheartening. Especially since it’s just the exact same bullshit over and over and over…

  277. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    It’s disheartening, yes. I don’t remember the last time we had such a deluge.

  279. says

    UnknownEric:

    It’s disheartening. Especially since it’s just the exact same bullshit over and over and over…

    It’s annoying and irritating and infuriating, if you ask me. Jesus Fuckin’ Christ in a sidecar, why are all these people refusing to think? Ah, never mind, I know already. I wish I had a cyberpistol.

  280. Pteryxx says

    Seriously, Cerberus kicks SO MUCH ASS. Striding like a colossus. And all of you folks who are still in it today, especially with so many new voices in. Most everywhere else on the internet it’s either a) heavy moderation or b) assholes rampaging virtually unchecked. Not to mention the biased media narrative that PZ highlighted in the Ars Technica thread.

    I figured I’d say here where it’s mostly calm, I changed my mind about the usefulness (separate from the propriety) of Richards posting publicly on Twitter. That didn’t contribute significantly to the shitstorm; it was the fired guy’s notpology placed on a hacker forum, which activated the mob, which caused SendGrid to cave, which made the story go mainstream. If all that had happened without Richards going on the public record at the time, there wouldn’t BE any competing narrative to oversensitive-troublemaking-eavesdropping-bitch. Maybe she didn’t intend it at the time, but that public tweet and post pre-emptively established her credibility. On the net at least, the shitstorm’s reaching Rosa Parks levels of newsworthiness, all because her side of the story was public and consistent from the very beginning to anyone willing to look a little deeper than a news article’s spin, even though she herself has had to go to ground. If she ever goes to court for wrongful termination, that narrative and the resulting public watchfulness will be essential to the fair handling of her case. From now on I’m dedicated to the right of victims to go public.

  281. says

    Caine and Eric-

    Oh yeah.

    This whole shit parade that Keeps. Fucking. Happening. is just… ugh… tiring. Which I guess is the entire point of the troll circus, when you get right down to it. Make us feel frustrated and under siege and impotent against the raw force of bigotry so that we aren’t motivated to continue raising our spoons and scraping back against the edifice.

    It still fucking sucks though.

  282. Goodbye Enemy Janine says

    The poor widdle MRA is whing about VAWA. Because men are the victims!

  283. zytigon says

    Hi Amphiox,
    Thanks for another great answer. Yet another of my “good” ideas has been shown to be a non starter due to lack of research. National Geographic could improve their magazine if they got you to write for them.
    Well what are the chances of modifying elephants so that they don’t grow tusks and thereby wouldn’t be killed for ivory? Would they just not survive without tusks ? Probably they would all need to be without tusks or fights would be too unequal .Could the tusk be removed in the first months ? Could you genetically engineer elephants to turn off the tusk growing ?
    If the worlds media banded together could they put out a clear enough message that would deter purchase of ivory ? Even just to convince people that it is no better than a placebo in medicine.

  284. zytigon says

    Hi Amphiox,
    Great answer thanks.
    Well what are the chances of modifying elephants so that they don’t grow tusks and thereby wouldn’t be killed for ivory? Would they just not survive without tusks ? Probably they would all need to be without tusks or fights would be too unequal .Could the tusk be removed in the first months ? Could you genetically engineer elephants to turn off the tusk growing ?
    If the worlds media banded together could they put out a clear enough message that would deter purchase of ivory ? Even just to convince people that it is no better than a placebo in medicine.

  285. calicocat says

    Thank you Unknowneric, this is all so disheartening.

    Maybe I can help improve morale here a bit: as part of my coaching, and partly because of my love of math and science, I would encourage the people I was coaching to study and get into physics, biology, and math that went along with the sports. I think I managed to spark a passion for math in a few of the younger girls (not a euphemism for wormen but young and older teens) as they got an appreciation for the ‘real world applications for this stuff’ (okay, maybe that’s a loaded phrase, but I think everyone knows the cliche at this point about never using this stuff after high school). They would sometimes come to me for help and tutoring.

    I started to develop health problems during this time, I gradually focused more serious competition to something more casual, I started to focus more on track and field and distance running, but this was okay because I used that opportunity to encourage others, especially younger girls and kids who thought you had to be the athletic type or intimidated by team sports.

    I remember one thing we did in particular when I would do field events (javelin, shot put, discus). for a bit of fun, we’d get a camera and record the throws during practice, then play it back slowed down on a computer, and do a bit of humerous commentary kind of like you see on tv. Talk about what kind of angles you’d throw at to maxamise distance, and the mechanics behind the different positions and throws.

    I hope ones that I saw took a real interest an interest in went on into science or math, maybe engineering or biology. It was really encouraging to see them learn to like their body as well for the things it could do. It’s funny, the time I wasnt making a concious effort to do what looks like feminist empowerment stuff, I just wanted to share my like of science and being social.

  286. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    traversedavies thinks threaded comments are better. As if I needed more proof he’s an idiot.

  287. calicocat says

    Oh god, wormen is obviously supposed to say woman in my previous post. I don’t even think I can pin that one on autocorrect /facepalm

  288. says

    Beatrice:

    traversedavies thinks threaded comments are better.

    Sticking my head under a pile driver is looking like a good option. FFS, the thread is right in front of his eyeballs and he can’t see that it’s not nested? Holy shit, do I ever pity his co-workers.

  289. Pteryxx says

    Leaving this here because it’s important. I didn’t know that the EEOC got there way before me.

    Via Stephanie Zvan:

    If you take a look at the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission’s information on unlawful retaliation, you’ll notice that “Complaining to anyone about alleged discrimination against oneself or others” is protected behavior. There’s nothing there about keeping that complaint small and discreet. There’s nothing there about your complaint drawing unwanted attention or additional illegal harassment to your company. There isn’t even anything there about not, say, going on television and announcing to the world that you’re being discriminated against.

    That would be because the types of discrimination covered by the EEOC are considered pervasive enough that reporting instances of discrimination is expected to be met with resistance and denial. The EEOC expects that many people will have to fight to have their claim acknowledged and that they’ll often be complaining about people who are part of the power structure to begin with. For that, they need a wide variety of tools. Cutting them off arbitrarily from some of those tools perpetuates the discrimination.

    Not just a viable option, not just morally a good thing: legally protected behavior.

  291. dianne says

    If we are so damn good at silencing the poor, poor menz, why won’t they shut the fuck up?

    I want this on a T-shirt.

  293. says

    I’m sick. I’m tired. I’m thinking of bailing on these assholes and just playing some video games and drinking some chicken soup and resting up for the carousel of bullshit I’ll be getting from my job tomorrow.

    Fuck the harassment campaigns that occur against all women whenever they try and discuss the harassment campaigns against specific women and fuck those pathetic privileged douches who want to view themselves as “not part of the problem” but don’t bother to counter this shit and hard.

  294. says

    LykeX 270
    I know, right? I can’t comprehend the level of dedication to their assholery, I really can’t.
    I’d also like to add my own expression of admiration for all of those actually keeping up with that thread, especially Cerberus, who has been kicking ass and taking names.

  295. says

    Cerberus:

    I’m sick. I’m tired. I’m thinking of bailing on these assholes and just playing some video games and drinking some chicken soup and resting up for the carousel of bullshit I’ll be getting from my job tomorrow.

    You know what, do that. Do it now. We (by name) were both just called retarded whores, retarded pieces of shit and lowly cunts. Good time to wander off.

  296. says

    Caine @295

    I saw that.

    On one hand, quist que fuck?

    On the other hand, it is a nice illustration to everything that we’re talking about that ever iteration of douchebag gets us closer to the toxic masculinity and its feelings of ownership over certain communities that are the heart of the whole issue.

    Douchebags feel they own X subculture, so when minority member points out problem in X subculture no matter how politely, they are turned into enemy number one because their very presence makes the douchebags feel that their “sanctuary” has been “breached” and the inevitable day of equality and actually having to treat the minority members in X subculture like the humans they are is inevitable.

    I just wish we didn’t have to go through it, every goddamn time in every goddamn step. Over. And. Over. And. Over. Again.

  297. says

    Cerberus:

    I just wish we didn’t have to go through it, every goddamn time in every goddamn step. Over. And. Over. And. Over. Again.

    I join you in that wish. With every fiber of my being.

  298. rq says

    *expresses lotsnlotsnlotsnlotsof admiration and support and gratitude*
    Because it’s never too much in the face of that much… vileness. Never too much.

  300. UnknownEric: A Man, A Plan, A Canal, Panama? says

    What rq said. Thank you, Cerberus and Caine.

  301. mythbri says

    I’m thinking of bailing on these assholes and just playing some video games and drinking some chicken soup

    Video games and chicken soup for all!

    What unoriginal, repetitive assholes.

  302. UnknownEric: A Man, A Plan, A Canal, Panama? says

    Yeah, I think I’m gonna watch Jeopardy and play Legos with my kids. G’night, all.

  303. says

    Chicken soup is boiling. Overly cute JRPG that doesn’t require too much physical and mental investment is plugged in and playing overly cheery J-Pop. Sorry, y’all, but the Cerberus store might be closed for a little bit.

  304. David Marjanović says

    David:
    The odious opinions he holds deserve the piling on.

    Oh yes. That’s why I joined the pile.

    So most of the forests of the world may be made up of bamboo-like species. What impact this major transition in the plant world will have for the forms of the animals is hard to guess (there may be none).

    Definitely not none!!! A few years ago the estimates for the number of species in Southeast Asian rainforests were doubled because of a study of the huge epiphytic fern Asplenium nidus (nidus = nest) and the animals that live around it.

    Compare, for example, a gorgonopsian, a theropod dinosaur, and a big cat or dog. The two synapsid carnivores are more similar to one another than the diapsid carnivore, even though all three groups occupied the same niche. (ie the extent of convergent evolution of bodyform is dependent to a great degree of shared embryology)

    More important, judging from crocodiles and tuataras on the one hand and monitor lizards and gila monsters on the other, is having a completely solid vs. an even just passively mobile skull.

    The galaxy is speeding away from the “center” of the universe.

    No. The space between the local galaxy cluster and everything else is expanding in all directions.

    There’s always the Troll’s beliefs in this matter (Discworld/multiverse): As the past, where we have been, can be ‘seen’, whereas the future, where we are going, lies in front of us, they logically conclude we are going through time facing backwards.

    There are plenty of languages, like Aymara, where the past does indeed lie in front of you and the future comes at you from behind.

    I mean, it makes sense, doesn’t it? There’s no reason to think we could somehow move backwards. I can’t even think of any logical way that we could,

    It’s not a movement. Don’t take the metaphor too literally.

    except for one…

    All possibilities have been explored.

    Science requires experimentation

    No, observation. Experiments are arranged opportunities for easily repeatable observations, that’s all.

    zhuge, le homme blanc qui ne sait rien mais voudrait

    l’homme, parce que le h est muet

    Another day, another example of Russia being a rogue state run by criminals and oligarchs:

    Well, no. We’re witnessing the last stage of the transformation from oligarchy to monarchy by the old-fashioned method. Do you know what vladi mir means?

    Yeah, they’re brave. Living in the most powerful nation the world has ever seen and still terrified that everything is going to collapse into chaos any day now.

    Also, even if the apocalypse isn’t specifically a zombie apocalypse, it’ll automatically turn almost everyone into murderous maniacs… oh, wait…

    And am I wrong in suspecting that these people don’t picture the hordes of maniacs just waiting for the chance to kill and rape and steal as being caucasian?

    …there isn’t actually any turning involved in this worldview.

    elephant tusks are teeth

    Specifically, they’re the second upper incisors.

    Yet if she says she hasn’t a shred of maternal feeling in her, moreover, if she says she would prefer to concentrate on her career and that a child would only get in the way of it, then my head might acknowledge her right to do so. But my heart whispers: ‘Lady, you’re weird.’

    Newsflash: different people are different.

    giving me a raging brainer

    ♥

    and I was able to stay awake and enjoy the sensation and presence for a good while until I started getting a leg cramp. So yay on that!

    :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
    :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
    :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
    :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
    :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

    Could you genetically engineer elephants to turn off the tusk growing ?

    Mutations have already done that. Tuskless elephants are becoming measurably more common – unnatural selection!

  305. David Marjanović says

    Just had a look at the dungeon.

    Phoenicianromans/Annah Green Shameless sockpuppetry.

    Phoenician in a Time of Romans got themselves banned? After so many years???

  306. says

    David:

    Phoenician in a Time of Romans got themselves banned? After so many years???

    It would seem that Pharyngula let them get away with shit the longest. They appear to have a long record of bannination all over the ‘net. Chris Clarke provided a couple of links to their loathsome and misogynistic views in the 2nd Shakesville thread.

    Also, the recent sockpuppeting was terribly blatant – they posted as “Annah Green” to give the impression of being a woman, therefor extrasuperduper free to make all sorts of nasty comments about Melissa McEwan.

  308. Hekuni Cat, MQG says

    Caine:

    I think the rats are plotting to overthrow me.

    You’re definitely out numbered.

  312. chigau (違う) says

    Markita
    We should pharyngulate a poll that says online polls are good?
    mwahahahaha

  313. says

    So. I was sad to see “Why I am an Atheist” go away, but I thought maybe PZ would be interested in rebooting that series in to “Why I am a Feminist”. Here is my contribution as a starter, PZ you are free to use this however you wish….

    Why I am a Feminist…

    I’m a feminist because women have had the short end of the stick for generations, and now they are speaking up and saying fuck you, enough is enough.

    Sometimes that rubs guys the wrong way or outright strips us of our privilege.

    Too fucking bad. I would gladly give up all my privilege to see future generations of women grow up in an environment where they are truly treated as equals, where they are truly respected and valued for whatever skills or ideas they bring to the table instead of judged on their looks or dismissed due to the stereo typed mold they are supposed to fit.

    I’m a feminist because I recognize that I’m not competing with women for supremacy, but rather cooperating with them and counting on them to help make the world a better place.

    I’m a feminist because I believe in equality, for all races, for all genders, for all people, I believe we can do better, and treat each other with more respect, and stop being so god damned reflexive in our need to defend our turf or our tribe.

    I’m a feminist because I’m an atheist, a humanist and a skeptic.

  314. says

    If you’d like a poll to Pharyngulate, the New Zealand Herald is claiming that an online poll is an accurate reflection of popular opinion on marriage equality.

    That’s some seriously meta stuff…:-)

  315. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    Confession:

    Nerd’s “who cares about your OPINION” “that is just your opinion *floosh*” and all the varieties are kinda annoying.

    Sorry, Nerd of Redhead!

    (I’m skimming the Ars Techinca thread, and I noticed I’ve started skipping Nerd’s comments since they are same old same old anyway. Sorry, Nerd!)

  317. Ichthyic says

    If you’d like a poll to Pharyngulate, the New Zealand Herald is claiming that an online poll is an accurate reflection of popular opinion on marriage equality.

    thanks muchly for the shout.

    This is something very strange. Usually, when the Herald runs a flash poll, it is clearly labeled with the “not scientific” sticker, and the comments are open for people to jest about the results.

    This time though, they have removed the label, make the outrageous claim that their flash poll is an accurate reflection of Kiwi sentiment on this issue, and have NOT enabled any commentary whatsoever.

    What’s more, ALL of the major papers across the country are now using this poll as if it were evidence of Kiwis changing their mind on this issue, and reporting it as if the legislators should have made this a referendum instead.

    There is something VERY fishy going on here, and I know my fish!

    My guess is that someone is paying the media to deliberately game this poll, not allow commentary, and play it up as much as possible. It could be intended as a distraction from the asset sales issue, or it could be just a bunch of rich extremeists deciding they can game the system for their own pleasure.

    not sure, but it really could use a mighty shove. The numbers, based on ACTUAL random polling done by NGOs and the government show consistent support for marriage equality in NZ at above 60%. Been that way for 3 years.

    This must not stand. We are SO close to getting the ammendment passed, and I really would hate for some idiotic politician to use this rigged poll as an excuse.

    GO PHARYNGULATE THIS POLL, please! This is one of the few cases where it actually makes a difference, to correctly show exactly how these stupid flash polls can be gamed.

    thanks.

  318. says

    Erik:

    So. I was sad to see “Why I am an Atheist” go away, but I thought maybe PZ would be interested in rebooting that series in to “Why I am a Feminist”.

    Oh no. No, thank you. I get enough abuse from assholes already. I think your idea has merit, though – if the essays were to be from men only, that might be damned interesting and I know for sure it would get a reaction.

  319. says

    Ichthyic:

    GO PHARYNGULATE THIS POLL, please! This is one of the few cases where it actually makes a difference, to correctly show exactly how these stupid flash polls can be gamed.

    Did my bit. I’m afraid equality is losing, 39% to 55%.

  320. Ichthyic says

    like I said, the poll was gamed by someone, but the paper is not enabling comments, nor even questioning why there is a 30 point turnaround in public opinion… in a single month.

    …yeah.

    quite anger inducing :P

  322. John Morales says

    evilisgood, how is your belief that there will never ever be a better one unassailable?

    (You’re gonna stop watching time travel movies?)

  323. says

    You could assail it if you wanted to, John. Maybe you’d come to regret it, build a time machine, and attempt to convince your previous self that assailing it was the improper thing to do. However, unbeknownst to your future self, a version of you from even farther in the future went back to convince yourself never to build the time machine. Then what would you do, John?

    THEN WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

    (I’ll never stop.)

  324. says

    Since the Fishman has derailed the “eyelid” thread enough, I’ll repeat what Caine said there here: Why do I have a “chat live” button in the lower right hand corner of my FTB window all of a sudden? Who am I meant to chat with?

  325. Lofty says

    I went off on a few other sites I visit and needed javascript. So I installed noscript and have allowed javascript where I need to have it. So far so good and no stupid chat button..

  326. John Morales says

    I run NoScript and RequestPolicy using FireFox 19.0.2.

    (No need for AdBlock, those two take care of things)

  327. says

    Australia, in their currently played World Cup soccer qualifier against Oman, are employing a tactic that we in Germany call “Und vorne hilft der liebe Gott”(and in front of goal we need god’s help). I don’t think it will be enough…

    I run NoScript and RequestPolicy using FireFox 19.0.2.

    Sure, I was just curious what the damn thing is there for and who put it there.

  328. says

    I know folks basically have to defend manboobz because as far as the MRM is concerned it’s correct, (So much fun to see, on reading u p, that an actual, factual MRA showed up instead of a garden variety misogynist.) but it is still run by a heterosexist, cissexist douchebag who thinks protecting the fee-fees of Catholics is more important than nearly every non-cis or straight person abandoning ship simultaneously, but just a reminder, he is still a heterosexist, cissexist douchebag who thinks…

  329. says

    Oh, and yes, there’s a reason I put this here instead of in the thread he was actually mentioned in after some jackass MRA thought he could slander him.

  330. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Confession:

    Nerd’s “who cares about your OPINION” “that is just your opinion *floosh*” and all the varieties are kinda annoying.

    Sorry, Nerd of Redhead!

    (I’m skimming the Ars Techinca thread, and I noticed I’ve started skipping Nerd’s comments since they are same old same old anyway. Sorry, Nerd!)

    Beatrice, The guy was a serial poster essentially not reading or comprehending the arguments against him. He thought by being extra slippery and extra stubborn he would win the argument. So, I just made sure anybody reading the thread would understand he wasn’t saying anything backed up by facts, just throwing out shit and arguments at random to keep talking, hoping something would stick. The fact that I kept dismissing what he said was a big insult. His poor ego deflates when he isn’t taken seriously.

  331. thumper1990 says

    @Markita Lynda #311

    Re. that poll:

    39% think same sex marriage should be allowed, 56% think it shouldn’t, and 5% “Don’t know/care”.

    … I am so up for Pharyngulating this. I’ve voted.

  332. UnknownEric: A Man, A Plan, A Canal, Panama? says

    I don’t go to MRA sites and post “Lol, u guise can’t get dates” so why are all these MRAs coming here, where one of our main concerns is feminism, and doing the equivalent? Do they really have nothing better to do with their lives?

  333. says

    Caine:

    if the essays were to be from men only, that might be damned interesting and I know for sure it would get a reaction.

    I guess I should have said the same as I was thinking it. I agree.

  335. mythbri says

    @Pteryxx

    I didn’t know Adria Richards is a woman of color. I had no idea – I’d never heard of her before this incident and everything I’ve read so far contained no pictures of her.

    This pisses me off. And it seems to explain more than it doesn’t, which pisses me off even more. Thanks for the link – will read right now.

  336. zytigon says

    On BBC radio 4 today Michael Sandel of Harvard was being the ” Public philosopher ” at Jaipur Literature Festival. He opened by asking the audience for a show of hands, for and against, on the issue of embryo sex selection in humans.
    Embryo screening using obstetric ultrasonography claims to give 50 % accuracy for males and 98% accuracy for females at 12 weeks but nearly 100 % accuracy at 13 weeks. There seems to be many cases of sex selective abortion in India and China.

    If there was a global one child policy with the choice of having male or female baby then who would make the choice because if too many chose male that might result in undesirable imbalance. If you threw a dice to decide then you might as well let nature make the choice ? Just say a situation arose where 60% of parents chose to have a girl then once the population reached 60% female majority they could vote for a law to have 95% girls in society- thus virtually ending the threat of rape. However with the downside of having to share stud males.

    Using sexed semen would avoid carrying out sex selective abortion.
    thegatesnotes, Hans Rosling, The river of myths: shows how population growth is declining with free choice where societies have adequate access to medicine, contraception, better life expectancy etc

  337. dianne says

    Embryo screening using obstetric ultrasonography claims to give 50 % accuracy for males and 98% accuracy for females at 12 weeks but nearly 100 % accuracy at 13 weeks.

    At 12-13 weeks, it’s a fetus, not an embryo.This is probably irrelevant to your post, but it’s an important physiologic distinction that is often ignored.

  338. dianne says

    Re the sexists on the various threads about Richards: I tried to go back and engage them to take in support of the pharyngulites who have been doing spectacular work in that department, but they’re so incredibly stupid that I just couldn’t think of anything to say.

    I seriously wonder about these people’s self-concept. How do they see themselves? What do they think they contribute to the world? What do they even want from the world? Being a sexist does not preclude one from doing useful work (consider Einstein, Picasso, or Hemingway, for example), but these guys really seem to have no thought in their head except for “my privilege is in danger! attack!”. What do they do when they aren’t acting like idiots on the web?

  339. glodson says

    I seriously wonder about these people’s self-concept. How do they see themselves?

    That’s a good question.

    I imagine that they see themselves as making good points, making good arguments. They only look from their own point of view, and do not try to see it from the point of view of others. These jokes don’t bother them, so it must be that there’s something wrong with her. She didn’t deserve the threats but she did cause this. She was right but she was wrong in shaming the men by identifying them. If I had to guess, I would say this is a mix of the Dunning-Kruger effect and various cognitive dissonance.

    They are so entrenched, they cannot see past themselves. Likely, they think that sexism is bad, but they don’t understand what sexism really is. Some of them. Others are just vile trolls here to rile people up. Both have the same goal, to get people to stop talking about the problem. If they can get us to stop talking about it, no one will examine their behavior.

    And it is exhausting. They say nothing, and outright lie. Look at the shit they’ve been saying, ignoring the one idiot who only added various slurs. They don’t want to talk about the harassment Richards faced. They don’t want to talk about the climate of the field. They don’t want to talk about the nature of sexual harassment.

    The goal post moving nonsense is exhausting. And they are too stupid to realize how badly they are coming off. The downside is that this trolling has an effect in that it polarizes people. Those who agree with us will agree even more strongly as a reaction to this, but those who agree with the troll will only agree more strongly.

    It is maddening. All to defend two guys who admitted they were wrong.

  340. Pteryxx says

    More useful background – an analysis of the context surrounding SendGrid’s firing of Richards.

    http://www.sfgate.com/technology/businessinsider/article/Rachel-Sklar-The-Firing-Of-Adria-Richards-Looks-4376602.php

    SendGrid made a massive mistake here – presumably they hired Adria Richards based on her record and experience. Presumably they interviewed her. Presumably they knew she had a blog and that it was called, “But You’re A Girl” – which presumably they understood to mean she’d be writing about her experiences being a woman in technology (presumably with a little edge). And presumably they’d done a little research into her methods. They hired her as a developer evangelist which means that they were presumably on board with the perspective from which she’d evangelize. And up until two days ago, they got a lot of goodwill from it.

    [later, re SendGrid’s public statement about the conference]

    Fair enough, but that all happened Sunday, and Richards blogged it Monday. Things began swelling Tuesday, but it wasn’t until late Wednesday that SendGrid became directly implicated by DDOS attacks. The firing was announced Thursday. So there is something logically inconsistent here. It seems clear that SendGrid and Franklin were aware of Richards’ conduct as the situation unfolded, yet the decision to fire her *only* came after the attacks. (And indeed, by Franklin’s own admission Richards abided by the PyCon Code of Conduct incident at the time, since he notes that the code was since updated.)

  342. mythbri says

    @glodson

    All to defend two guys who admitted they were wrong.

    I don’t think that’s why. I think they’re fighting a meta-battle. This isn’t about two guys who admitted they were wrong. This is about shutting down challenges to what they consider to be perfectly acceptable. This is about making sure that the status quo doesn’t change too much.

    Hitherto thou shalt come, and shalt go no further.

  343. says

    From the post Pteryxx linked to:

    So SendGrid – and Franklin – are being seriously intellectually dishonest here. They fired a female employee for speaking up in about feeling uncomfortable within a specific professional environment, in a manner which – like it or not! – was consistent with the rules and regulations of that environment. That’s not ‘supporting the right to report inappropriate behavior, wherever and whenever it occurs.’ That’s a warning shot for women not to speak out, pure and simple.

    Hell, just read the whole thing. It’s spot on.

  344. glodson says

    @ mythbri

    The funny thing is that I don’t even think they realize they are doing that. They are just lashing out because they feel threatened. There seems to be an arc these people often follow. It starts with the attempt to appear reasonable, like they are just objecting. As that gets stripped away, they try to deflect. When it goes on long enough, we have the breakdown like in the one of the Richards thread, where they finally lay it all out on the line.

    It is pathetic.

  345. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    Can the invasion of the brainless stop already, please?

  346. glodson says

    Could they at least be interesting? This most recent one is boring, and quite possibly the most pathetic I’ve seen.

  347. Brother Ogvorbis, Fully Defenestrated Emperor of Steam, Fire and Absurdity says

    Can the invasion of the brainless stop already, please?

    No.

    Could they at least be interesting?

    No.

    This has been a Two-fer Tuesday of ‘Simple Answers to Obvious Questions.’

  349. Brother Ogvorbis, Fully Defenestrated Emperor of Steam, Fire and Absurdity says

    By the way, the Borkquote was freee.

  351. dianne says

    Ironically, loungetroll refuses to come here where he’d be relatively welcome. Again, I find this interesting, if depressing. He really is just in it to cause as much damage as possible, apparently. If he wanted a good fight about feminism–and, for that matter, attention, well, I expect we could oblige him here. Instead he’s over playing cockroach at the lounge. Why? What benefit does he derive from this behavior?

  352. says

    Beatrice:

    Am I supposed to know who this is?

    Rey said it was a troll who is banned here, ‘pogsurf’. I’ve sent an alert, just ignore the idiot for now.

    Dianne:

    Ironically, loungetroll refuses to come here where he’d be relatively welcome.

    No, he wouldn’t be welcome.

  353. dianne says

    Well, “welcome” is probably the wrong word, but at least this would be the right place for him to go if he wanted to have a fight. His posting at the lounge indicates that he has no interest in an actual discussion but is only interested in hurting people.

  354. dianne says

    Actually, if he’s been banned, he shouldn’t really even have access to the thunderdome. Sorry, I missed that bit earlier.

  355. says

    Actually, it’s not the right place because he’s already banned here. I know he’s being a pain in the ass right now, just remind people to engage their killfiles and ignore him.

  356. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    Well, my “welcome to post here []Thunderdome]”, in my comment in the Lounge, would have probably been better stated as “a bit less unwelcome than in the lounge”.
    Although, with the way he’s going, he’s ripe for banning.

  357. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    Yeah, and I read and immediately forgot that part too. So banning it is.

  360. says

    Okay, the troll has been cleaned up, but there’s a good chance we’ll see more – see PZ’s post in the lounge. If anyone spots a problem, holler at me or one of the other monitors.

  362. glodson says

    There’s another one in the ‘ask an ethicist’ thread – “Duh, what status quo?” Oy.

    Fuck. And I’m sure that it is more of the same.

    I swear, I’ve written the same fucking response about ten times today. Points that were addressed in full over 1000 comments ago. And I wasn’t even mean about it until long after he showed that he was uninterested in any dialogue and not even willing to understand the basics.

  363. says

    Glodson:

    Fuck. And I’m sure that it is more of the same.

    It’s exactly the same. Daniel Levine’s on them right now, but it’s another thread completely ruined, and the discussion up until asshole showed up was a good one.

  364. glodson says

    I read some of it.

    It is going to follow the move the goal posts style. Oh, it wasn’t sexual. Oh, it wasn’t that bad. Oh, she shouldn’t have gotten him fired. Oh, it was sexual but it wasn’t sexist. Oh….

  365. Portia says

    I’m reading the Ask an Ethicist comments, and I had a thought about the “SMILE, WOMAN” phenomenon. I usually get the opposite, though I have been told to smile by men plenty of times. It never really solidified in my head before that when men comment on how I’m “always smiling” it’s a sort of sick complement (well, and compliment) to the demand for a smile. I probably smile because I am trying to be non-threatening, in a way men don’t have to worry about. Especially in a professional context, I’m trying to communicate that I am no ball-buster, I am conciliatory. Because being otherwise has a cost. So even when they say something like “She can’t be a lawyer, she’s smiling too much!” or “You’re so sweet, you always have a smile!’ it’s a reinforcement of the power dynamic that requires women to be decorative in public.

    Mind blown.

    Thus ends Portia’s stream of consciousness real-time realization comment.

  366. glodson says

    Maybe this is a weird comment, but it this smile thing can boomerang on the guys. This is what the anti-feminists don’t get. We might want to strike up a conversation with a woman, might just want to say something nice, but the sexist connotations of our statements are something many of us are entirely ignorant of.

    It is just little things, which serves to entrench these sexist attitudes even more. Compliment the smile with acceptance, the woman gets the impression she should smile as to not be labeled as a “ball-buster.” The compliment gets a scorned reaction, the guy can be left defensive and channel that into the notion that the woman is too sensitive.

    It gets everyone.

  367. says

    I find that particularly annoying because smiling is a very natural way to signal openness and a friendly attitude. However, once there’s an expectation of a smile, suddenly the dynamic changes completely. It poisons the entire interaction.
    The point of a smile is that it should be a spontaneous expression of good humor. If it’s expected, or worse, required, then it’s not spontaneous and it has no meaning anymore. Telling someone to smile is effectively telling them: “I want you to suppress your genuine emotions and pretend to feel differently because it would give me pleasure.”

    You know, once I write it out like that, I can’t help but notice how much that parallels with the many other cases where women are asked to suppress their emotions for the benefit of men. The Adria fiasco is the same thing. Many of the complaints are directed at the fact that she said how she felt out loud.

  368. cm's changeable moniker says

    mythbri:

    @glodson

    All to defend two guys who admitted they were wrong.

    I don’t think that’s why. I think they’re fighting a meta-battle. This isn’t about two guys who admitted they were wrong. This is about shutting down challenges to what they consider to be perfectly acceptable.

    glodson:

    The funny thing is that I don’t even think they realize they are doing that. They are just lashing out because they feel threatened.

    I think it’s probably quite the opposite: that they feel superior.

    —

    And if I tilt my head sideways and try and get into the dudebro zone (trust me, this is not a world I inhabit either by inclination, or by choice), when someone says:

    making dongle jokes in earshot of a woman who is making a professional presentation about making the field more welcoming to women, is clearly a sexist thing to do

    I’m going to be able to feel pretty damn superior, because that simply didn’t happen. She was in the audience, listening to giant-robot-with-big-dongle jokes while Jesse gave the conference wrapup presentation.

    And when it’s not the joking in and of itself, it’s that:

    I saw a photo on main stage of a little girl who had been in the Young Coders workshop.

    I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so.

    … my (dudebro hat on) reaction is: Maybe the girl will grow up to make dongle jokes with the best of them. Maybe she’ll decide coding is boring and take up landscape gardening (or number theory) instead. Maybe she’ll drop out and join a hippie collective. Who knows? More likely the organisers of the Young Coders workshop will have an even tighter code of conduct and she will have that opportunity after all.

    It’s all a two-way game of SIWOTI. And it’s often Social Proof (except for the empirical studies).

    *flail*

    —

    For the record:

    I’m NOT saying it’s OK to make sexual remarks at a con. You can do it, you might get away with it, but then again you might not. Probably best not to unless you’re 100% sure of your audience.

    I’m NOT justifying the reaction Richards received. That was horrific.

    I’m NOT siding with the trolls and sexists. They’re idiots.

    —

    But, let the record state in the calmest and most gentle of language I can muster that, IMO, posting photos of strangers on your Twitter feed is not the right thing to do, even if they are making off-colour jokes.

    And that I sometimes hate the internet. :-/

    *doubleflail*

  369. cm's changeable moniker says

    Also that I shouldn’t use capitals for emphasis. That’s shouty. :-(

  370. glodson says

    I think it’s probably quite the opposite: that they feel superior.

    There’s some truth to this. I would have to read up on it, but I would hazard that some do it because they are threatened, or feel the need to put someone beneath them. The others could likely be very confident individuals with the need to disparage others.

    Not sure if I’m oversimplifying or just complicating the issue.

  371. says

    cm:

    But, let the record state in the calmest and most gentle of language I can muster that, IMO, posting photos of strangers on your Twitter feed is not the right thing to do, even if they are making off-colour jokes.

    You know, there are at least 1,000 posts which explain why you are utterly wrong here. Perhaps you should try reading them. It was the method used to report and deal with harassment while not having to leave the presentation.

    If you’re going to go the asshole route, you had best start a movement to shut twitter down, because people post photos of strangers doing all manner of shit, every second of every day. Singling out a woman for using that method of reporting and dealing with harassment, in the mildest of all possible manners, with a ‘not cool’, is not only wrong, it’s hypocritical.

    As it turns out, it’s a damn good thing she did use twitter, or else everything would have been way worse, with everyone screaming that she had no proof, no verification and so on. You obviously skipped every one of Pteryxx’s posts dealing with this very thing, where handy links were provided, showing it was indeed the best thing for her to have done.

    I hold out no hope you’ll actually get this, and I note your effort to weasel past by posting here, rather than making your statement in one of the relevant threads, because I imagine you were expecting to get a free pass this way.

  372. cm's changeable moniker says

    You know, there are at least 1,000 posts which explain why you are utterly wrong here. Perhaps you should try reading them.

    Um. I did?

    And many of them contained factual inaccuracies.

    And narrative construction based thereon.

    And hence my post.

    —

    If you’re going to go the asshole route, you had best start a movement to shut twitter down, because people post photos of strangers doing all manner of shit, every second of every day. Singling out a woman for using that method of reporting and dealing with harassment, in the mildest of all possible manners, with a ‘not cool’, is not only wrong, it’s hypocritical.

    I didn’t single her out. I said “posting photos of strangers on your Twitter feed is not the right thing to do”. I stand by that statement, and extend it to Facebook, Google+ and all other internet-sharing-site users including the denizens (if they still exist) of alt.binaries.pictures.*.

    FFS. Shut Twitter down? It’ll implode from its own improfitability.

  373. says

    CM

    I’m sorry but we’re way past the point where anyone with an inkling of knowledge about social media should know damn well that every thing you say and do outside the confines of your own home has the potential to get recorded and go viral.

    The argument that it’s unethical to post pictures of someone online with out their consent is quaint and naive. That horse has left the barn, that genie is out of the fucking bottle.

    It was a tech conference ffs, and I pointed this out very early on. Anyone in that audience that wasn’t aware that every one around them was packing heat in the form of a megaphone to the internet is a clueless dolt and gets what they deserved.

    Adria didn’t do anything wrong or unethical, despite some people’s attempts to paint it as such after the fact.

    I’ll say it again, we live in a new age of social media where anything you say and do in public has the potential to go viral with or without your permission. Whining about that now is just deflecting from the real problem. Pay no attention to the douchebro’s behind the curtain.

  374. cm's changeable moniker says

    As it turns out, it’s a damn good thing she did use twitter, or else everything would have been way worse, with everyone screaming that she had no proof, no verification and so on.

    No, wait. How does a photo prove anything other than there were two guys sitting in back from her?

    You obviously skipped every one of Pteryxx’s posts dealing with this very thing, where handy links were provided, showing it was indeed the best thing for her to have done.

    I think she was right to call it out. I think she was wrong to call it out with a photograph on Twitter. I mean, if I managed to find a photo of you and tweet “Caine’s wrong about this: here she is <photo>”, that would be pretty fucked up, right?

    I hold out no hope you’ll actually get this, and I note your effort to weasel past by posting here, rather than making your statement in one of the relevant threads, because I imagine you were expecting to get a free pass this way.

    No, I was following on from the sort of meta-discussion from #342-ish, which is where TD was at when I got to a computer which I could comment from. The relevant threads seem to have degenerated into a who-can-find-what-from-FB-about-JJ (not happening: I checked; there’s nothing there except Ron Paulism) versus what appalling things he’ll say he’ll do to people tonight to prove he’s awesome. Do not want to go there.

  375. says

    JJ has confessed to at least 3 felonies in that thread. I hope he keeps digging himself right in to a jail cell if he’s not a 13 year old troll.

  376. cm's changeable moniker says

    http://www.whenskepticsattack.com/

    Heh! I thought that was going to come out “erikthebassist”. Fucking clipboard protocols. ;-)

    I’ll say it again, we live in a new age of social media where anything you say and do in public has the potential to go viral with or without your permission. Whining about that now is just deflecting from the real problem. Pay no attention to the douchebro’s behind the curtain.

    The answer is video, then, no?

  378. says

    The answer is video, then, no?

    Why not? Audio? Video? As long as it’s in public it’s pretty much fair game at this point.

    Of course there are places and times that should always be off limits, locker rooms, rest rooms etc… Planting something in someone else’s home wouldn’t be cool.

    Did you you complain when that lady was caught on video throwing kittens in a dumpster a few years ago?

  379. says

    CM did you complain when the video of the bullies on the bus surfaced a while back and that woman became an internet sensation and people rallied to her side and donated money to her?

    Is there a line where inappropriate behavior being publicly outed should be drawn or is it just when women complain about doods being sexist asshats that it’s no longer fair game?

  380. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    #374
    cm’s changeable moniker

    No, wait. How does a photo prove anything other than there were two guys sitting in back from her?

    It proves to the conference organizers just who she was talking about, in the exact place and time. Otherwise, they would’ve looked at her sideways with the whole “So you were sitting in front a couple of guys that look exactly like 80% of attendees who made a sexual joke you didn’t like….Riiiight…..we’ll get right on that.”

    Doing what she did, how she did, made them deal with it.

    I swear I wrote this same fucking thing like 10 times now. Fuck.

  382. John Morales says

    cm:

    No, wait. How does a photo prove anything other than there were two guys sitting in back from her?

    What, you too?

    (Fuckity-fuck-fuck)

    I think she was wrong to call it out with a photograph on Twitter.

    So. Fucking. What.

    —

    FFS, you’re bringing an active topical thread’s issue here.

    More than one, even.

    Fucking do it in those threads, you bumbler.

  383. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    FFS, you’re bringing an active topical thread’s issue here.

    More than one, even.

    Fucking do it in those threads, you bumbler.

    Good point. No need to spread the infestation to the Thunderdome. I’ll leave it in the other threads. It’s been discussed to fucking death already anyways.

  384. cm's changeable moniker says

    erikthebassist, hang on a second. What?

    The first one is http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-11068063, right?

    That was wrong.

    the video of the bullies on the bus surfaced a while back and that woman became an internet sensation and people rallied to her side and donated money to her?

    I have no idea what this is referring to. I could guess it’s the Indian bus gang-rape case, but “video”, “internet sensation” and “donated money to her” don’t ring true.

    Please could you be more explicit?

  385. cm's changeable moniker says

    And thank you for the free plug for my fledgling blog

    Um. You’re welcome, I guess. ~:-|

  386. says

    {the tardigrade awakens from tun, covered in bruises. checks that the hexanitrohexaazaisowurtzitane is sufficiently stabilised with cocrystals of trinitrotoluene, and carefully attaches said to end of sharp, pointy stick with masking tape. sets off, following the heavy bootprints of teh Marjanović. All that kirschwasser in the chocolate-covered hugs should be taking effect round about now….}

  387. says

    CM is your googles broken?

    http://gawker.com/5920674

    Wasn’t that hard to find, and out of respect for the regulars, take your argument to any of the Richards threads where I will gladly dismantle it. I also think I have a unique angle on this and wouldn’t mind putting it out there. You pick the thread, throw your opener and link it here, I’ll follow up.

  389. cm's changeable moniker says

    JAL, sorry for pissing you off. But she left the room and pointed them out to staff anyway. The photo was never required. It could have stayed unpublished (see the current code of conduct).

    Morales, I don’t know why you’re pissed off. This is Thunderdome?

    erikthebassist, I’m not replying to you until you answer #384, because I think your questions are deeply weird and somewhat troubling.

  390. Portia says

    erikthebassist answered your question. And they’re not the one saying “deeply weird” crap. That’d be you, cm.

  391. John Morales says

    cm:

    Morales, I don’t know why you’re pissed off. This is Thunderdome?

    Whyever would I be pissed-off? Surely a mystery to you.

    Yes, this is Thunderdome, where I tell you you’ve just made the very same (thoroughly dismantled quibble) that all the trolls did.

    (Go join them in those threads)

  393. cm's changeable moniker says

    erikthebassist answered your question. And they’re not the one saying “deeply weird” crap.

    That’s fair. I didn’t refresh before posting.

  394. Portia says

    None of you can say how PZ’s actions are NOT many times worse than that of the men at the conference.

    Actually, I think Esteleth put it rather neatly. (I only link to cite. Don’t follow the link, don’t go back to the Lounge).

    Alina, do you know what the difference is between PZ doing that and the dudes making dongle jokes (etc)?

    PZ had those women’s consent. Seriously.

    Dirty jokes are not the problem. Dirty jokes at a woman’s expense when she didn’t explicitly invite them are the problem.

    And yes, this is a hugely important distinction.

  395. says

    ALINA K

    I don’t know what this… this shitweasel’s problem (or obsession) with P-zed is about, but she* really needs to get some fucking therapy, get over herself, get over whateverthefuck it is that’s bothering her, and get a fucking LIFE.

    Did it never occur to her that the participants in the video she’s whinging about were, you know, totally in on the deal and doing it willingly?

    Has Whingy Shitweasel never heard of a thing called acting?

    Dafuq, man? Are people really just that fucked up, that a pre-planned, staged incident is now an example of P-zed behaving badly, so let’s ban him from ALL the cons?

    Someone oughta do some digging on this “Alina” character, because I’m getting a strong whiff of “previously banned troll”.

  398. John Morales says

    Alina K, your lying lies are not worth any more response than this.

    But I am generous, nonetheless.

    I’ll repost all my comments here. Let’s see how unmoderated this thread is.

    Translation: I have not bothered to read the commenting rules wherein that information is revealed.

    PZ has brought me to tears and people in the other thread all trashed me instead of at least admitted I had a case. I’m fucking upset.

    And here you are with us. O joy!

    And all people can concentrate on in the 410 Lounge is that I didn’t have time; that I’m too upset to find the video from a respectable person. They would rather focus on the person who submitted the video than the fact that their blog writer is a vile pig. Can any of those scumbags honestly tell me that they wouldn’t trash me if the video were submitted by someone on freethoughtblogs.com for instance?

    What a long-winded way to call Lounge denizens scumbags, O scumbag.

    This is what I said: [blah blah blah]

    I care nothing for what you have to say.

    —

    Look, insulting and whiny (and extremely hypocritical) person: You want sympathy for your purported angst, you’re in exactly the wrong place.

    (bah)

  399. says

    * And I only refer to this person as “she” because the username is feminine. (Yes, I know, bad kitty, assuming.) I have no knowledge of this person’s actual gender.

  400. John Morales says

    WMDKitty, ‘clutching at straws’ is an idiom for a reason.

    (They have nothing else)

  401. mythbri says

    Alina, if you are actually (in real life) true to the way you’re presenting yourself here, then I do feel sorry for you.

  403. says

    There’s 3 of the fucking hell threads now?!? And we’ve got cm over here parroting the fucking party line too?

    Fuuuuuuuck.

    I’m out.

    Sorry, but this shit is just nonstop harassment that occurs whenever women even talk about women terrorized for commenting on sexist cultures. Two layers removed and there’s still not room to fucking breathe with all the cloned fuckers getting their rocks off on enforcing a diseased toxic culture in the most sickening ways possible.

    And frankly, this whole things started out triply triggering for me (the disingenuous illegal firing of Adria Richards and general argument styles by the trolls echoing bullshit chase the moving goalpost shit I’ve been getting at work, the initial harassment in a convention panel triggering intense memories of when I was raped in a convention, and the firm reminder that anyone who pushes back against entrenched bigotry is considered fair game (especially if they’re a minority) stressing me out over my current plan to tell the entire story of my discrimination naming the company in question when my workplace either fires me or drives me to quit).

    Overall, though, it’s just exhausting. Sure it can feel okay reducing a half dozen trolls to apoplexy.

    But they Just. Don’t. Fucking. Stop. Coming.

    And every “argument” starts from ground zero, because it’s all about exhausting us and draining our righteous fury in sisyphean tasks.

    And frankly, I’m there.

    Fuck the boulder. I’m going to go do something fun instead like delving into my rape flashbacks and trying to figure out which aspects of the initial event are the most powerfully enduring.

  404. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    To be fair, even if the participants were in on it, its not necessarily true that every one in the audience was.

    I don’t think that Alina’s charge is entirely without merit.

  406. John Morales says

    Hey, everyone needs a hobby, even losers like “Alina”.

    I’m sorry, but I’m not buying the bullshit. Would you?

    Does it seem to you like I buy your bullshit? :)

  407. says

    Erik:

    Umm, shouldn’t be too hard to figure out that Alena K is EU / Eucliwood.

    Oh, I thought it was Reap again. It’s one of Reap’s screeds. Whatever the case, they are both banned here.

  408. Portia says

    Cerberus, I’m so so sorry it’s taken this toll. Please take care of yourself and take whatever time you need. You’ve done amazing work and don’t think it was for nothing. You lifted a lot of spirits with your great comments, mine included. Take a pile of hugs for when you want them.

    —

    I don’t think that Alina’s charge is entirely without merit.

    Really? Do we really have to do that? In the midst of an unending infestation?

  409. Kitterbethe says

    I’m so sorry, Cerberus.

    You’ve been amazing in those threads. Above and beyond.

    Please take care of yourself.

  410. says

    AE:

    I don’t think that Alina’s charge is entirely without merit.

    Please, don’t go there. That screed was lifted directly from Reap Paden, it’s very old news, it’s been hashed out a hundred fucking times, and it was, I believe, made clear that the audience was aware of the joke.

  411. John Morales says

    “Alina”:

    You guys don’t have to worry about me or my feelings.

    You’re not addressing the “scumbags” in the Lounge, you know.

    (I’m one of the “scumbags” in Thunderdome)

  412. says

    Erik:

    Umm, shouldn’t be too hard to figure out that Alena K is EU / Eucliwood.

    Oh, I thought it was Reap again. It’s one of Reap’s screeds. Whatever the case, they are both banned here.

    Wouldn’t surprise me if we aren’t still talking about the same person.

  413. Portia says

    *waves hand wildly in the air*
    I’m a Lounge scumbag!

    …

    If I’m here, does that make me a Thunderdome scumbag? Can I be both?

  414. says

    Cerberus:

    There’s 3 of the fucking hell threads now?!?

    Yes.

    And we’ve got cm over here parroting the fucking party line too?

    Yes. He completely denies that guy culture exists, so this wasn’t exactly a surprise.

    Fuuuuuuuck.

    I’m out.

    You deserve some time out. I’d be taking tonight myself, if it weren’t for a ‘monitors be on the lookout’ alert.

  415. John Morales says

    Cerberus, hey.

    You have nothing to be sorry about; you’ve more than done your bit.

    Thank you.

  417. Portia says

    Caine, if you need a break from reading comments, maybe someone with your email could start the alert chain? So you can actually get a bit of a break, anyway, and would just be checking your email?

    I suppose you’ve thought of this, I just thought I’d toss it out there.

  419. John Morales says

    Portia,

    If I’m here, does that make me a Thunderdome scumbag? Can I be both?

    Why, yes!

    “It’s just a jump to the left.
    And then a step to the right.”

  421. Portia says

    Why, yes!

    Muy bueno!

    “It’s just a jump to the left.
    And then a step to the right.”

    :D :D :D You so often make me actually laugh.

  423. mythbri says

    It’s the pelvic thrusts that really drive you insane.

    …

    Everyone who needs a break should take one – there’s been some amazing commenting mixed in with all the muck.

    Put your well-being first.

  424. says

    Ok I think CM is taking some time to suss this out so I’m going to go back to what I was talking about. It seams to me that some otherwise reasonable people are falling for the fantasy that there is any expectation of privacy once you walk your front door, thus think of tweets with pics and descriptions as an invasion of said expectation of privacy, and they can’t get over it.

    If you blame Adria for this fiasco then you also blame whoever took the video of the bullied bus lady, or whoever uploaded the security footage of the kitty dumpster lady, or you should catch yourself criticizing Bradley Manning.

    Ask yourself this, are you more upset about the filmed assassination of a journalist in Iraq and the subsequent attack of his serait sauveteurs, or are you most upset at the person that leaked the video? Is whoever leaked that video in the wrong for doing so?

    When people are caught doing socially unacceptable things on camera and those things come to light, do you want to blame the fly on the wall or that unconscionable action that caused the attention to begin with?

    And so where do you draw the line? Seems to me a lot of people draw line exactly where that exposure would expose themselves.

  426. says

    Erik:

    And so where do you draw the line? Seems to me a lot of people draw line exactly where that exposure would expose themselves.

    Exactly.

    Portia, Sue posted about feeling very vulnerable. Other people have been that defensive that quickly too, generally because they feel hurt or unsafe. Trollwatch is no excuse for making people feel uncomfortable, especially with nitpicky little tests that most people wouldn’t know about. If ‘Susan’ is a troll, I don’t imagine it will be long before they reappear with a different attitude altogether. I don’t think she is, though.

  427. Portia says

    Caine
    Good points. I guess my side-eye is just a little strong. It didn’t seem implausible that she was just a person who felt reasonably defensive, I just…overcalibrated, I guess? I dunno. Maybe it was the accusation that we made assumptions that tripped my trigger. I’m inclined to think you’re right, that she’s not a troll. Just felt a little wary, I guess. I’ll stop talking about her behind her back now.

  428. Portia says

    Oh, and I meant to add: I can only hope that my confusion with John’s comment made her feel a little less out of place, ha.

  429. says

    Joe:
    Please take some time away to get some perspective. Your focus, understandable to an extent, is upon yourself. However, you’re doing so at the expense of Susan’s feelings. In effect, you’ve dismissed her feelings and decided that-in this case-yours are more important. As the strong advocate for feminism that you have been, can you see the problem with that? And even aside from feminist issues, Susan is welcome to the selfsame compassion you have been shown. I feel that instead of attempting to see why she would be uncomfortable or hurt, you are not looking beyond yourself (which I find ironic, because you are so often able to do so).

  430. chigau (違う) says

    I’m off to tidy-up my bookmark file.
    By this I mean, “delete everything”.

  432. says

    Here’s an idea.
    Wait until someone starts trolling before deciding they might be a troll.
    Or can we not handle trolls when they pop up and actually reveal themselves to be trolls? I think we can.

    Just a thought.
    Sometimes people are defensive because they have legitimate reasons to be.
    Sometimes people might specifically come to threads like the Lounge BECAUSE they are feeling defensive.

    Here’s another thought with one person in particular in mind (no, not portia or joe) and who is someone I have long found tedious.
    If you have nothing to add to a thread that is heading off the rails in part possibly because of your participation, it’s really not necessary to announce to the world that you have nothing to add.
    If you DO that, it’s quite possibly a passive-aggressive way of intentionally adding a final touch of contempt for those who judged your previous input to have been less than helpful.

    (I take full responsibility for this comment and if it reflects poorly on my character then that is because I am to that degree a person of poor character.)

  433. says

    Jafafa Hots:

    If you have nothing to add to a thread that is heading off the rails in part possibly because of your participation, it’s really not necessary to announce to the world that you have nothing to add.

    If you DO that, it’s quite possibly a passive-aggressive way of intentionally adding a final touch of contempt for those who judged your previous input to have been less than helpful.

    I agree.

  434. says

    Jafafa Hots:

    (I take full responsibility for this comment and if it reflects poorly on my character then that is because I am to that degree a person of poor character.)

    It’s a fine comment.

  435. chigau (違う) says

    bookmark purge complete first pass
    I’m really glad my contract with the gummint is completed.
    Any more time with circumlocutory, passive-voiced, never actually naming names or assigning blame…
    gah
    bring on more trolls

  436. says

    Chigau:

    Any more time with circumlocutory, passive-voiced, never actually naming names or assigning blame…
    gah

    Ouch. That doesn’t sound far off from what we’ve been dealing with. Except for little trust fund John, who did provide entertainment of the sleazy snowflake type.

  438. says

    Personally, I’m so damn happy Jafafa Hots decided to come back and has been more active posting. Jafafa Hots, I hope you know I have long valued you (for however many years it has been now). You have always been a person I read, having one the sharpest minds on the planet and a great sense of humour.

  439. says

    Tony, not down on myself.
    Like many here I also suffer from bad bouts of depression, and have other issues also… and so I realize that I don’t always come across the way I intend.
    But I also realize that sometimes when I come across the way I intend it’s because I AM often insensitive.

    A couple of shrinks have diagnosed me with (besides the usual PTSD and bipolar) borderline personality disorder. I don’t totally buy that, but I do see some things on that spectrum that I definitely have.
    The lack of a sense of self, no real feeling of who I am… but more pertinently the whatever-they-call-it – out-of-sight-out-of-mind thing with regard to friends and relatives.

    I never call people. I am essentially estranged from every family member I can possibly be estranged from, and I have no real friends, barring one extremely patient and forgiving person who just lets me ignore her for months on end because she gets it.

    So I KNOW I don’t always connect properly with people, and own that, and say it.

    That’s also why I come here asking for advice but almost never am able to offer it or even be just a compassionate ear. Runs in the family a bit, plus with some trauma and a TBI or two, I just am not a socially functional person (but I play one on the internet).

    I’m a very lonely person, but I’ve found that the only time I am more lonely than when I am alone is when I am with others (at least after a bit).

    Not me being down on myself (trust me… if I were doing that, you wouldn’t be seeing me here at all).
    I just know myself. But I can’t seem to fix me.

    And lastly, I gave that disclaimer because I know that while I am a fairly good judge of character, I also tend to be very hard on people (another BPD thing they stick me with).

    Anyway, that’s far more than enough about me. :)

  440. says

    Personally, I’m so damn happy Jafafa Hots decided to come back and has been more active posting. Jafafa Hots, I hope you know I have long valued you (for however many years it has been now). You have always been a person I read, having one the sharpest minds on the planet and a great sense of humour.

    awww … shucks.
    (looks down and blushes, kicks at dirt with toe.)

  441. says

    Jafafa Hots:

    I am essentially estranged from every family member I can possibly be estranged from

    So am I. Haven’t seen or spoken to any family member for over 3 decades.

  442. says

    Jafafa Hots
    If that’s BPD, then I’ve got it hard. I’m not actually estranged from my family, we get along fine, but they’re the ones who maintain the contact (and they’re not great at it either). My friends usually consist of the social circle of my current SO, and I lose touch with them when the relationship ends (L isn’t terribly sociable either, for a lot of reasons, so I’m pretty short on meatspace friends right now).

    So I KNOW I don’t always connect properly with people, and own that, and say it.

    That’s also why I come here asking for advice but almost never am able to offer it or even be just a compassionate ear. Runs in the family a bit, plus with some trauma and a TBI or two, I just am not a socially functional person (but I play one on the internet).

    I’m a very lonely person, but I’ve found that the only time I am more lonely than when I am alone is when I am with others (at least after a bit).

    This resonates very strongly with me, although I’ve found that the compassionate ear thing can be learned, at least somewhat. I know I’m not as good at it as many people, but I can manage it more or less these days. Most of the advice I give is passed on from elsewhere, and I usually have no idea how good it is.

  443. says

    Dalillama:

    I’ve found that the compassionate ear thing can be learned, at least somewhat. I know I’m not as good at it as many people, but I can manage it more or less these days.

    From what I’ve read, you do a good job on that front, and Jafafa Hots does too, even if he doesn’t realize it. A lot of times, just being able to relate to how someone feels or is acting is more than enough.

  447. says

    JAL:

    Doing what she did, how she did, made them deal with it.

    Also, remember the DJ Grothe incident? What happened there was that while the staff dealt with a particular issue, they then promptly forgot all about it and kept no records of what happened. Then DJ went out and claimed that it was completely irresponsible to say anything about sexism because clearly nothing like that ever happened; there were no reports.

    The public approach makes that impossible. The report is there for all to see. Not only is the conference forced to deal with the immediate problem, but they’re also forced to recognize that the was a problem to be dealt with.

    Note: I don’t know about PyCon’s history on these matters. I don’t want to tar them specifically. My point is simply that it’s not inconceivable for a conference to deal with a problem and then conveniently forget it ever happened.

  448. cm's changeable moniker says

    He completely denies that guy culture exists

    Oh, that’s what this is about? OK. No, I don’t. I claimed it’s on the wane.

    And I found a quote from Kimmel about privilege that was totally spurious.

    Feel free to trash me for that. I can’t post from work, so you’ve got 12-14 hours to do so. :-p

  449. says

    The US has a country code that it never needs to use, but the quote is spurious? The point isn’t changed.

    Although Kimmel is a much better communicator than he is a scientist, or such is the scuttlebutt from th e sociologists I hang out with.

  450. dida says

    rq, Heikuni Cat, NateHevens, Giliell, carlie, Beatrice:

    Thank you too, for support and advice!

    I don’t have much time to myself, and it’s difficult to get time/space to write.

    It’s very hard right now, but I do everything I can to not make him angry (I know it’s not my fault, I just have to do this now, then I can get away). I have hope now, that is what I hold on to.

    I have not called the hotline yet. He’s home almost all the time, and I haven’t had the chance to. I will as soon as I can.

    Thank you all again for help and support, it means the world to me!

    I will be back later with update.

  451. says

    I have learned that I need to watch my intensity level and I am a substitute teacher in a southern state. It’s probably a reason why I’m trying to organize more effective ways of combating harassing trolls.

    What thread has the worst, most ignorant trolls that I can help pin to a wall?

  452. says

    So I just watched “Django Unchained”. Sure, so Tarantino is obsessed with Christoph Waltz and German mysticism, fine, but I really don’t get the whole movie at all. Like, why did we have to have this movie? With Inglorious Basterds I was like, he must be experimenting or something, but this one, I’m not following.

  453. rq says

    dida
    I hope you get a chance soon, and so much good luck!
    If there’s anything that can maybe be done from the European end, please let me know (Latvia, for what it’s worth…).

  454. Portia says

    Dalillama:

    This resonates very strongly with me, although I’ve found that the compassionate ear thing can be learned, at least somewhat. I know I’m not as good at it as many people, but I can manage it more or less these days. Most of the advice I give is passed on from elsewhere, and I usually have no idea how good it is.

    You are great at it. Your support and advice are often the very best.

    dida:
    Thanks for popping in. Take care, good luck.

  455. Portia says

    Wait until someone starts trolling before deciding they might be a troll.

    I’ll cop to that. I’ll hold back in the future if I have reservations.

  457. says

    Theoretical physics question, if anyone would like to take a stab at it (maybe it’s stupid and basic but I’ve never seen it addressed, so here goes):

    Whenever physicists talk about the multiverse theory, they always mention infinite universes. Why does it have to be infinite? Why cant it be 10 universes, or 42, or 10,944? Does the math change if there is a finite number, or is the number irrelevant, just a variable? Thanks.

  458. Dhorvath, OM says

    Infinite peals back the “Why this one?” question. If there is every iteration, no description need be found for why some possibilities were favoured into existence and others favoured out of it. Since our models currently provide no reason to say that there is only one, it’s an interpretation that is currently best opposed by economy. (I see no evidence in our observable universe that economy is a driving feature. This is neither evidence or an argument in favour of mutliverse, but it is why I find it easy to consider)

  459. consciousness razor says

    Theoretical physics question, if anyone would like to take a stab at it (maybe it’s stupid and basic but I’ve never seen it addressed, so here goes):

    Whenever physicists talk about the multiverse theory, they always mention infinite universes. Why does it have to be infinite? Why cant it be 10 universes, or 42, or 10,944? Does the math change if there is a finite number, or is the number irrelevant, just a variable? Thanks.

    I think that would be a consequence of certain versions of inflation (probably the most popular ones), so if we’re in a multiverse, it’s not necessarily the case that there are infinite universes in it. As I understand it, the idea is basically that inflation doesn’t stop forming new universes once it’s started. Thus, you get infinite universes … maybe not “now” (whenever that is) but eventually. Anyway, it’s implied by what the inflation process is supposedly doing physically; it’s not simply to make the math sensible. I don’t think that’s even close to being settled though, so I guess you could say there are 42 if you like. Maybe all 42 of them could be infinite, as a sort of compromise.

  460. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Favorite tweet today:

    I’m a woman working in games, and if you ever tell me you “love my tits” I will cut you in the fucking face.

  461. glodson says

    Whenever physicists talk about the multiverse theory, they always mention infinite universes. Why does it have to be infinite? Why cant it be 10 universes, or 42, or 10,944? Does the math change if there is a finite number, or is the number irrelevant, just a variable? Thanks.

    It has to do with iterations, really. Just look at the experiment with two slits. That’s always a good place to start, as Feynman suggested.

    For those that don’t know, it is a simple experiment. Just take light, best if it is monochromatic, and two narrow slits in a opaque material. Shine the light on this material and notice the interference bands. Easy enough to understand, as the waves of light interact with each other, positively and negatively interfering with each other. Cover one slit, the interference pattern disappears.

    Then we crank the light down so that it only fires one photon every 2 seconds. Long enough, by far, for the photon to travel past the slits and hit our photosensitive material. It leaves a dot where it hits and the next one isn’t fired until well after this journey is complete. One would think that there would be no interference pattern. One would be wrong. There still is.

    The multiverse idea is an answer to what is going on. The photon is being experience interference from itself in other universes. So this is why we still get the pattern even by sending one photon at a time. Now, in each of these split universes, the photon could end up on any band, and on any point in that band. That’s not an infinite set of possibilities, in and of itself, but it is a staggering amount of variation. And that’s just from the experiment, something quite limited in scope of space and time.

    Imagine spreading these differences out across an entire universe. Every particle, every bit of energy, is subject to this, across all times. The splits just keep happening. Even for something very simple. Let’s flip a coin five times. Each time you can either get heads or tails. Your first attempt will be heads or tails. That’s two universes. Second time, we get four. Heads tails, Heads heads, Tails tails, or Tails heads. Third attempt, we are up to eight. Then 16, then 32. Just from the result of a coin flip. What happens when we have something which can go in any direction?

    Now, this is one idea of a multiverse. There are others that I’m less familiar with. But often the conjecture leads to something without a limit on the number of universes.

    I hope this helps.

  462. thumper1990 says

    So, in an attempt to add to the sniny new fluffiness of the Thunderdome, I have good news! Obama, sending a clear message that ladybrainz are perfectly capable of coming up with a viable strategy to protect him and his family, has today appointed Julia Pierson as the Head of the Secret Service. The first ever woman to be head of the Secret Service!

    Yay! Progress! :D

  465. Brother Ogvorbis, Fully Defenestrated Emperor of Steam, Fire and Absurdity says

    JayJay is back and he has doubled down on the sneering.

    Yeah. I think I set him off and he is rolling. Sorry. This victim blamer needs to take a break.

  467. Portia says

    Janine:
    Oh for fuck’s sake…I read back to see what “crime” he was talking about. My stomach turned.

  468. thumper1990 says

    JayJay is back and he has doubled down on the sneering.

    Oh for fuck…

    *storms off to Ars Technica thread*

  472. thumper1990 says

    Oh, this time he’s being particularly disgusting. He claims to have been molested at his mythical house party, in a scenario which exactly matches one he put forward yesterday as an “argument”.

    Good call chigau. If he carries on in this line someone is going to get triggered.

    The guy is such an arsehole. Unfortunately I am on a timetable tonight and so only have the time to tell him how disgusting he is once. Rip him a new one for me, people. I will see you tomorrow.

  474. mythbri says

    I know that a lot of you are part of the Facebook Resistance, and sometimes I wonder if I shouldn’t join you. I help to moderate a nerdy FB group for fans of of a particular nerd website, though, and I feel like I play a big part in making sure that this group remains a space where female nerds can participate without being called sexist slurs, or a place where people make rape jokes or go on sexist/racist/homophobic rampages with impunity.

    Anyway, a lot of you probably already know that I’m a former Mormon. I still have a lot of Mormon friends and family members, many of whom I’m friends with on FB. I changed my profile pic yesterday to show support to my gay friends during these landmark gay rights Supreme Court cases. I’m not a slacktivist, and I know that my profile pic will have absolutely no effect on the outcome of the decision, but I saw so many of my gay friends express their appreciation for the visible sign of support.

    One of my still-Mormom friends posted this link today, as an example of “how far the church has come” on gay rights issues. *eyeroll* It’s a response to a petition that HRC delivered to church headquarters requesting a retraction or condemnation of the remarks one of the General Authorities made at a General Conference back in 2010. You can read the link to see how they responded, which is basically not at all. Also, they claimed that they support LGBTQ people in other issues, just not marriage equality.

    This is news to me.

    http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-mormon-responds-to-human-rights-campaign-petition-same-sex-attraction

  475. mythbri says

    This part of my comment above is a little ambiguous:

    or a place where people make rape jokes or go on sexist/racist/homophobic rampages with impunity.

    I hope that it’s clear that I try to make the FB group a place where people DON’T make rape jokes or go on sexist/racist/homophobic rampages with impunity.

  478. says

    evilisgood at #457:

    Theoretical physics question, if anyone would like to take a stab at it (maybe it’s stupid and basic but I’ve never seen it addressed, so here goes):

    Whenever physicists talk about the multiverse theory, they always mention infinite universes. Why does it have to be infinite? Why cant it be 10 universes, or 42, or 10,944? Does the math change if there is a finite number, or is the number irrelevant, just a variable? Thanks.

    Before I answer, I should note that I can’t do math to save my life. My answer relies more on common sense than anything else…

    I would say that the reason an infinite number of universes is imagined is simply because, at some point, there has to be something that has existed forever. Whether you’re an atheist or a theist, this is a conclusion that I think is impossible to escape. Without something being eternal, we run into an infinite regression problem.

    I tend to think four things fit that description: time, space, matter, and energy. Of course, that’s really two things: spacetime and energy (as Einstein showed, matter is a form of energy). The reason I think these are infinite/eternal is because without them, existence itself is impossible. They themselves cannot have been created because they need to exist in the first place in order for any kind of creation (be it natural or artificial) to occur in the first place.

    Not even God can be outside of spacetime and energy, because not even God can exist without these things.

    An infinite number of universes fits with this quite well if you imagine that the things universes exist on (like membranes, for example, or bubbles) are the physical manifestations of spacetime and energy.

    So that’s why; because in order to avoid infinite regress, there has to be an infinite number of universes. I don’t think there’s any way around this, unfortunately…

  480. says

    NateHevens,

    Thanks for your response. Let’s say that there has to be something infinite, like time and energy. An infinite number of universes within that framework doesn’t necessarily follow. There could be infinite membranes, for example, but only 12 universes, couldn’t there?

  481. Lofty says

    Giant cuttlefish numbers are drastically declining in South Australias Spencer Gulf. A little poll to pharyngulate.

  482. cm's changeable moniker says

    Cerberus @#403, I’m sorry that I triggered you.

    You’ve done sterling work in all those threads, and you didn’t deserve that.

    Apologies.

  483. says

    evilisgood @ #480:

    NateHevens,

    Thanks for your response. Let’s say that there has to be something infinite, like time and energy. An infinite number of universes within that framework doesn’t necessarily follow. There could be infinite membranes, for example, but only 12 universes, couldn’t there?

    Yes, but it would be… strange, to say the least…

    If the idea of the membranes is true, it means that our universe is the product of a collision between two spots on two membranes. If the collision can happen once, it means that the membranes are close enough in their space to collide. It would be strange as hell if collisions were such a rare occurrence that number of collisions is in fact finite, considering an infinite amount of membranes and an infinite amount of time… I would argue that it is, in fact, impossible. If there’s an infinite amount of membranes, then there has to be an infinite amount of universes. Even “rare” becomes infinite when dealing with infinities…

  484. athyco says

    I know you have to take something out to keep a video from embedding rather than linking, but I can’t remember what. So, I’ll break up the link.

    http:// www. youtube. com/watch?v=BMBo9jtWFrw

    Honest to pete, everyone, I know how infuriating the Adria Richards trolls have been, but I found this video packed with Onion level stuff. I hurt my sinuses with an uncontrollable snort and didn’t feel it until five minutes after the video ended. Well, I think I started to feel it midway through, but then I got to the part that he begins with “literally,” and it went away again.

    Possible voiceover for the trailer: Once upon a time, there was a nasally Tuber with a bad sound system who never filmed more than his torso clad in a stained Infidel t-shirt (because he’d so challenge the feminists that they’d have no option but to attempt to ruin his life). One fine day, realizing that society would be doomed without his sage input, he decided to make a video titled “Seriously forked.”

    Possible taglines:
    “There is no endpoint to the demands that can be made.”
    “Get it out of your head that you can use the old tactics.”
    “Give up all social life.”

  485. says

    …he decided to make a video titled “Seriously forked.”

    You know, underline the point that there’s no double entendre here.

  486. cm's changeable moniker says

    Rutee Katreya:

    The US has a country code that it never needs to use, but the quote is spurious? The point isn’t changed.

    Close. The point is that all countries have a ccTLD, even the US. Some in the US even use it.

    But all other countries have had the option to use non-ccTLDs like .com, .net., .org.

    I’m nominally a .uk but wield .net privilege!!1!

  487. mildlymagnificent says

    Seriously forked. He didn’t really do that.

    “Women may find it extremely difficult to find work” in the tech industry because of Adria?

    Yes, he really did that. (I didn’t bother to watch much beyond those first coupla minutes. If anyone thinks I’ve missed some vital redeeming feature, let me know.)

    :sigh:

  488. cm's changeable moniker says

    erikthebassist:

    Ok I think CM is taking some time to suss this out

    It was 02:30 here in GMT-land. I was asleep. ;-)

    are you more upset about the filmed assassination of a journalist in Iraq and the subsequent attack of his serait sauveteurs

    See, here’s the thing. I have no idea what this refers to, any more than I did “the video of the bullies on the bus surfaced a while back and that woman became an internet sensation”. I’m sorry. I don’t know every internet-based story that flows through the US news machine. *flail*

    where do you draw the line?

    For me, the bright-if-slightly-fuzzy line is consent.

    The argument that it’s unethical to post pictures of someone online with out their consent is quaint and naive.

    *shrug*

    I shall henceforth label myself quaint. (Not naive; I’m too old–sorry, quaint–and cynical for that.)

  489. cm's changeable moniker says

    Oh! L’esprit d’escalier!

    Thanks for calling me an asshole on your blog! *rapsberry* ;-)

  490. athyco says

    No, mildlymagnificent, you didn’t miss a vital redeeming feature. The fact that it is so over the top with the opposite of redeeming features is what set me laughing hysterically.

    It certainly is a YMMV situation, but this guy says that we’ll soon come to not being able to make “any kind of joke” at work and in the next sentence that it is “impossible to go through the day without cracking a joke.”

    In his opinion, there’s the male space / male community / male sphere, but women still want to “invade” these companies because *they* (not the rugged, risk-taking men, I guess) “prefer the security of health care and stable hours and HR departments.”

    And when–with that title–he later said that we have “literally come to a fork in the road,” laughing was all I could do.

  491. cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming) says

    Tony @#444:

    Erik answered your question @387.
    He is referring to this story from last year:
    http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/national_world&id=8710563

    I know. I didn’t refresh before posting. Sorry.

    Genuine question: who posted the video to the internet? An observer or one of the perpetrators?

    —

    On a separate note, I am curious about why you do not believe in guy culture.

    On a separate note, I am curious why you think I do not believe in guy culture.

    (Epistemology 101.)

  492. cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming) says

    Sorry, forgot.

    :-)

    Honestly, I’m not as grumpy as I sound today.

  493. says

    Just watched The Hobbit. Loved the Rhosgobel rabbits (and Radagast – really, I must name a rat that at some point) and had the standard eyeroll over the wrong cry re: the eagles, but all in all, we enjoyed it.

  494. athyco says

    Maybe funny only to me, but the “Seriously forked” video with the line about we’ve “literally come to a fork in the road” has now gone private.

  495. Hekuni Cat, MQG says

    Cerberus – *many hugs and lots of chocolate* Thank you so very much for your contributions to all the recent threads.

    Dida – Keep safe! *hugs and chocolate and support*

    John Morales:

    “It’s just a jump to the left.
    And then a step to the right.”

    :D :D

    mythbri

    I know that a lot of you are part of the Facebook Resistance

    I’m a proud member of the Facebook Resistance. Join us. We have cookies.

    Caine – We saw The Hobbit last Saturday. I loved the rabbits too and Radagast (yay, Sylvester McCoy). We enjoyed it too.

  496. Portia says

    I have been avoiding sugar and flour, but gods, I might have to make some cookies soon. Can I have an ecookie, Hekuni Cat? I’ll consider joining the dark side.

  497. says

    Hekuni Cat:

    We saw The Hobbit last Saturday. I loved the rabbits too and Radagast (yay, Sylvester McCoy). We enjoyed it too.

    :D He was wonderful. My kind of wizard. Your box of wonderful treasure is up at Rattitude. The rats are just having the time of their life, thank you so much.

  498. mythbri says

    @Caine

    The only thing I didn’t like about Radagast was the bird shit on his face. Seeing the promotional pictures, I had assumed it was a kind of fungus, like you’d find on a tree. But nope. It was bird shit.

    I know that animals have natural bodily functions, and in general they don’t care where they crap. But if Gandalf can be all Moth Whisperer to summon the Eagles, then Radagast can have a short conversation with the birds that live in his hair.

    “Just do your shitting somewhere else,” he could say, and everyone would be cool.

  499. says

    Mythbri:

    The only thing I didn’t like about Radagast was the bird shit on his face. Seeing the promotional pictures, I had assumed it was a kind of fungus, like you’d find on a tree. But nope. It was bird shit.

    Huh. Didn’t look like bird shit to me, looked very like certain fungi that grows all over here, especially on trees. Also, given the nest, the hair and the hat, I don’t think the bird shit would end up in that particular place. A long way to say I saw it as something else, so I wasn’t bothered. I was surprised he wasn’t familiar with leaf, though. I’d think he would be, but perhaps with all those shrooms which so offended Saruman…;D

  500. says

    @ evilisgood

    I don’t think I can comment as well as glodson (#461) on this, but to really stir the pot, let me just remark that although there might be an infinite number of universes, there may also be only one electron! Although Feynman spoke of one electron in our universe, considering glodson’s comment and the wave nature of that one electron, it may be like this: The big stuff is ubiquitous and the little stuff rare…

    @ NateHevens

    there has to be something that has existed forever.

    Sorry, but this is “not even wrong”. There is absolutely no reason at all for this to be true, and very likely quite the opposite, You can get something out of nothing (in the form of matter | antimatter, or particles | antiparticles). Spacetime and energy (or “matter” if you will) can certainly come into being ex nihil – it has happened at least once.