The Christian Coalition of America has created something called the 2008 American Values Survey. It is why we crash polls.
This particular poll is supposed to produce results that the Christian Coalition will present to congress as if it is a serious and representative sample of “American values” … which must be why they toss it out onto the web on a conservative website. This is not how you do a legitimate poll. This is how you bias your results.
So let’s all show them that American values include atheists and agnostics and humanists. More importantly, churn this badly designed poll so that either the results are far more ambiguous than they hope, or they have to start throwing out answers they don’t like selectively, further demonstrating the invalid nature of this method.
we are borg. We will crash that poll.
“Do you agree or disagree that pollution from burning oil and coal can help cause climate change?” What? That’s quite a pit of sand they’ve stuck their heads in.
Oh jeez, it looks like in order to get your results validated, you have to fill out a donation form. I filled it out with all fake information, but I can’t tell if my opinions were accepted or not…lame.
Mmmm, after filling in the survey, one goes to a donation page. Not sure if they count your opinion if you do not donate :).
The CCA hits you up for a contribution at the end. As you can imagine, I didn’t donate. I’m not sure whether my survey went through or not, or if it is even what you guys would completely agree with. I’m conservative on a few issues like a balanced budget, deporting illegal aliens (my wife is an entirely legal alien and I had to spend thousands getting her over here from Japan), and gun rights.
However, I’m entirely with you on medical research and women’s reproductive rights. These right wing fanatics are only a step away from Muslims in considering women property to be entirely subjugated.
What got me was the question on tax reform. The options were basically:
1. Do you want to cut taxes drastically for the wealthy and reduce the working class to poverty?
2. Do you want to cut taxes drastically for the wealthy and reduce the working class to poverty in a different way?
3. Do you want to continue as we are with lower taxes for the wealthy?
Where’s option 4, “Tax the F**K out of the wealthy (though still leaving them enough of their earnings to lead a life of luxury), and tax the F**K out of the churches!”
The other questions were really leading, but that was one where the options given didn’t cover the full range at all.
It’s not as exciting when you can’t see the results. Wah! I need instant gratification!
I find it suspicious when the results aren’t made available. This allows them to discard the poll entirely or fudge the results.
I attempted to do it, made it through to the end and listed under *fake name*. I didn’t see anything that said I had to donate but let’s hope that it wasn’t the case.
In the meantime, let us cheer as a poll shows up that says Christian Conservatives do not wish to keep the Ten Commandments on public property.
It strikes me as highly unlikely that the results will be honestly reported. The Christian Coalition is, after all, on a mission from God. That means it’s okay to lie, since it’s in a good cause. And we know that they do twist the truth routinely and without any apparent twinge of the conscience.
Still, it’s fun to play with their little minds.
I responded to the poll, but I think this blog probably has more daily readers than the Christian Coalition has members.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Coalition_of_America
“Since Robertson and Reed left the group, the Coalition’s influence has greatly declined…”
I filled it out, using my real name and everything. When you click the Submit button, it returns you to the home page, and that’s where the donation plea is located. I don’t think it’s directly related to the poll.
But I agree with others who say that this poll could be jimmied easier than most, because respondents can’t see the results.
“Do you agree or disagree that we have a Biblical mandate to care for God’s creation and to protect our children’s future by curbing pollution that may alter our climate?”
Do you really need a biblical mandate to ‘protect our children’s future?’ Put that way, strongly disagree, but come on. Are there really people out there that think pollution is a good thing?
Well, I can’t, in all honesty, respond to that poll. They ask for a state and I’m not American. I’m Canadian.
I’m being honest and I’m therefore not crashing their poll by writing a phony state. Which is probably giving them more than they deserve.
I have to admit I was surprised by the focus on climate change. That has only newly entered the conservative camp. I consider it a good sign.
Ted: Yup, the people who profit from it… and millenarian groups who think we have to use it all up before Armageddon.
“Rape this world, rape this Earth, take everything you want from it because, you know what? It doesn’t matter. We’re not here for very long. Christ is coming to take us away from Earth, so cut down our trees, use all of our oil, take advantage of everything the Earth has to offer.” – Jesus Camp
@12,
I didn’t know what to put for that one, Its a double edged sword, I couldn’t bring my self to answer it as I agree with the premise but don’t like the wording.
“Do you support a ban on embryonic stem cell research (which destroys a human embryo)?: ”
Strongly Agree?
Somewhat agree?
…
How do you agree, or disagree, with a yes or no question?
These folks fail so consistently at the most simple logic, it’s mind botteling.
I tried, then gave up at the contribution page. I’m not even American, so I had no business there… except that I have American friends, I have sympathy for a part of what the US represents, and I’m concerned that they may become even more of a fundamentalist religious state than it is now.
Well, that, and the fact that the US has a way of making their policies matter to the rest of the world, sometimes for good, sometimes with ill results.
Anyway, thinking about it, the CC poll is anything but reliable. I would think transparency is essential in this kind of undertaking, but they seem to go out of their way to make it obscure. Consider: you cannot know when or if your submission gets registered. You don’t know if skipping the contribution form affects it in anyway. And of course, since nothing is published, you have to trust they will be honest with the results. Which is more than I would be prepared to trust, given their track record.
But there are other things you Americans can do. I resent that these loons call themselves representatives of the American values. What, why? I hope someone else counters with a similar poll on American values, properly conducted.
Coming to think of it, why don’t you do that? they will come to crash it too, but it would be a nice way to show them we don’t have anything to hide :)
Eastern European Pharyngulization branch reporting in. Hope they won’t check the IPs and start wondering why there are antipodes participating in the poll.
How can they present such a poll “to congress” which a) doesn’t publicly show its results and b) is not a valid, statistical poll?
Even though my class on survey research and data collection does not start until March I can already spot boatloads of leading questions and pigeonholing answer choices. The tax question was definitely the most egregious, as any sane person will not support a flat tax, a national sales tax, OR keeping the current system as is. I certainly hope that, despite all their careful planning, we all help make their sample truly representative.
Done and done.
Ted H. : Yes, yes there are. Or to put it more precisely, there are people out there who think its a good thing that they be allowed to dump their trash wherever they like in whatever condition they like because allowing this would reduce their operating costs and because “no government egghead knows better than me how to run mah business!”.
You must also remember that, until this decade, many of the far right Christian churches argued that pollution was fine because god gave us this planet to exploit and ravage to our hearts content, and that, because doing so will inevitably lead to an ecological Armageddon, it is in someways even holy work. This argument was also used for to justify their opposition to the Endangered Species Act.
Oops; forgot to delete that ‘for’. :/
@#16
I just said Strongly disagree. It doesn’t matter what the subject is. There is simply no agreeing with a statement regarding any kind of mandate from a god. When they parse their results I doubt they’ll notice the juxtaposition of my strong agreement with the other questions.
I suspect it’s just a feel good thing for them which is actually not too bad considering it may keep people from actually contacting and whining to their Congressperson. I never thought the CC had anyone with any morals, logic or clear thinking so this poll is worse than any posted on various news sites. I find it difficult to believe they will be able to make any sense out of the results and if they don’t even try, why would Congress see any value in it. They don’t get (undue) respect like they used to.
Done!
Did anyone else have trouble with question number four? “Should criminals be held liable for harm they cause to unborn children?”
Ultimately I put no, because I suspect they would include doctors who perform abortions under that, but initially I was torn. Should criminals who, let’s say, attack the pregnant mother and end up injuring or killing the fetus suffer additional charges?
I wasn’t as scrupulous as Michelle – even though I’m Canadian, I filled it out and pretended to be from Arizona. Hey, I have an aunt who used to live there.
I also used my never-checked gmail account for the email address, as I’m sure much entertaining Christian spam is produced by that lovely site.
And honestly PZ, why don’t you ask for donations after every comment? Seems like you’re missing out on a potential revenue stream. “Pharyngula depends on your donations to undertake its mission of spreading the gospel of science. Please give generously. The blessings of Darwin upon you!”
I thought the mini poll on the left hand was pretty funny too, asking what Sarah Palin’s next step should be:
She Should Run for Re-election as Alaka’s Governor in 2010.
She Should Run for United States Senate.
She Should Run for President in 2012.
She Should Become the Republican Party Chairman.
they left out ‘She should crawl under a rock and disappear from the public’s sight’
“Should criminals be held liable for harm they cause to unborn children?”
Wow, these people must consider the Bible even more obsolete than I do. As I recall, it’s quite specific on the matter.
“Do you agree or disagree that we have a Biblical mandate to care for God’s creation and to protect our children’s future by curbing pollution that may alter our climate?”
I’m somewhat mixed on that one.
Done.
I liked the poll in the sidebar, too. “What should be Gov. Sarah Palin’s next step?” Unfortunately, “Quit her job and go back to school until she’s at least as educated as the wolves she kills” wasn’t an option.
@#27
I have a simple analogy to reconcile pro-choice stance with criminal liability.
think of it this way – a person who gets their ears pierced does so out of personal choice about their body. Should someone else force it upon a person, then it is assault. The argument still comes down to the fundamental nature of a woman’s dominion over her own body. If it is her will to abort, so be it. If it is someone else’s will then it is criminal.
Of course if you try that on a pro-lifer you’ll end up in an argument over the fact that you’ve just compared ear-piercing to baby murder and nothing meaningful will result.
Since I am Canadian, I put down my province (Ontario)as my state.
You’ll never see that one for two reasons:
1. The wealthy already pay a huge amount of tax; and
2. If you push taxes on the wealthy to a level they consider unfair, they take their ball and go somewhere else, leaving the rest of you to pay the tax.
#1 is a statement of fact. The myth of the wealthy paying no tax is exactly that… a myth that is as much bollocks as the existence of an invisible man who watches what you do and throws you into a lake of burning sulphur if you disagree with him.
#2 is why Canadians scramble to get their assets out of the country, for example.
Tax systems have to be fair. Just because you’re not wealthy doesn’t mean the tax system isn’t fair. When I was younger, I thought the “rich” were some cabal of non-tax-paying exploiters too… then I grew up.
If you need a temporary throw-away email address that doesn’t require registration, check out Mailinator – http://www.mailinator.com
Re #12, 16, 25: I decided that since they asked whether “we” have a Biblical mandate to care for God’s creation, and I wasn’t including myself in their “we,” I could agree with the statement. The Bible mandates it, even if I don’t agree with the Bible on other topics or agree that it comes from God.
Brodie, if you are picky about the way you read the question, it doesn’t say that the mandate is from God. It says it’s from the Bible.
Ruben, Reinis, others:
If polution, ecomomic woes and terrorism didn’t cross international borders, then maybe non-citezens shouldn’t vote. But they do. So go ahead and vote.
I agree, they could totally fudge the numbers. I have no faith in the this poll, but I don’t mind showing them that they’ve been Pharyngulated.
Jessica, excellent answer. I answered “undecided,” ’cause I didn’t think I had a mandate from Gwad.
Jammed.
I have a sudden urge to watch ‘Spaceballs.’
I wonder how they’ll react to a surge of our responses. I’m guessing that they’ll highlight them and claim persecution.
@KristinMH : Well, I’m certainly not gonna stone you for it. :P
But they might.
Brodie,
That’s more or less how I view the issue. I wonder how its best implemented in the legal system though. If the fetus is killed would it be murder, manslaughter, destruction of property, or would the action merely be taken into account by the court without any additional charges and the sentence just made more severe because of it?
It’s important to remember that this is not a bias survey. The Christian Coalition of America are a honerable group that value all opinions as they believe that god created man in his image, even the left wing bastards that threaten their very exsistance with their liberal politics and homosexual friends. I am sure they are going to great lengths to advertise their survey to people from all walks of life…YEAH RIGHT.
Re #36
I see your point about reading the question as if from CCoA’s perspective. But don’t they also consider the bible to be the word of god? Do you positively reinforce them when their faith aligns with what is beneficial for society, or do you strictly oppose reinforcing theism completely?
When I saw the Biblical Mandate from God to not pollute, I wondered why people need to go to scriptures for that answer. Why not ask a neighbor with asthma or emphysema where “Do unto others” fits in with pollution?
As for the Sarah Palin question, I voted that she should become the Republican Party Chair.
Please?
Did not complete, those cretins want personal info. Kind of a laugh, any economic progress that happened in the 50s or 60s must have been mythical, because of the high tax rates. If the tax rates doubled on the extremely wealthy, they’d still pay less than their grandparents paid under Eisenhower. You’d think their self respect would demand they stop freeloading.
Here’s what you do on the donation page:
1.put in a negative amount for the donation
2.????
3.Profit!
Re #44
It goes back to the fact that they derive all morality from their religious belief. To them there is no socially motivated morality. The idea that something beneficial to the community is beneficial to the self doesn’t jive with burning in hell if you don’t follow the rules. They need the threat of spiritual retribution to justify their actions.
Section 1:
1. Strongly disagree
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Undecided
5. No
6. Yes
Section 2:
1. No
2. Yes
3. Undecided
4. No
5. Undecided
6. Somewhat Disagree
Section 3:
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Keep the current system
4. Yes
Section 4:
1. No
2. No
3. Somewhat agree
4. Yes
5. Undecided (Apatheist, don’t believe in the bible)
6. Somewhat agree
It would appear PZ that they have gotten wise to you. I clicked the link in your post and I’m sitting here watching a cute little spinner, that never stops, for a page that never loads. Of course, it could be that their reduced finances have forced them to make certain, “cut backs”, on their support contracts.
@waza (#5)
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html
http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes
There’s a nice table there that shows who pays the taxes. However, the short summary: People who make over $108k collectively pay about 71% of US income taxes, but represent only 10% of US tax payers according to 2006 numbers. In fact, the top 1% pay about 39% of the total US income taxes.
So really, do the rich really need to be taxed more? What purpose would that serve?
Looks like we d.o.s.’ed them.
Evolving Squid: It depends what “Tax the F**K” actually means.
Getting $1000000000 out of me would be insane. Getting it out of Bill Gates is grossly undertaxing him.
Once you get beyond a certain level of wealth further wealth doesn’t mean anything. You can already do anything you want; the money’s just a way of keeping score. I have a feeling there’s a way of getting the unneeded excess out of the superwealthy, but I’m not going to draw up new plans for an economic system at 3:44am. I mean, look what happened when Marx tried it.
I think our response to their poll is more than they anticipated/their servers can handle. I clicked submit about 5 minutes ago and I’m still waiting on the form to update.
I do believe we’ve jammed them enough to make them loose the bleeps, the sweeps, and the creeps.
hahaha… I couldn’t get in. They must be scratching their heads right now.
@ wazza:
Your quote from Jesus Camp sound a lot like the way the Camorra does business here in southern Italy.
The question squid is how much of the wealth goes to the top 5-10%?
We can talk about fair when you have that answer.
http://www.cc.org does not respond for me.
pharyngula broke it.
I’ll keep trying though.
I think we need to arrive at a consensus on how to answer this question, since it is deeply flawed…
Obviously, we have an obligation to care for the environment, and protect our children’s future… but casting it in terms of “Biblical mandate” and “god’s creation” is fallacious in the extreme. Loaded question (x2)… poisoning the well… begging the question… who knows what else.
Further, it is even fallacious from the perspective of a broad spectrum of christ-cult delusionists… those who embrace ‘dominion’ theology, as pointed-out above (#15) in the ‘Jesus Camp’ quotation. Folks who think like this…
So… here’s the thing…
… a sane, rational, honest person cannot answer this question at all.
… an extremely… dangerously…. deluded person cannot answer this question honestly… although the ‘honesty’ bit would probably not be a hinderance, since dishonesty is an integral part of their tool-kit.
… the only people who can answer this question ‘honestly’ are moderately deluded religious whack-jobs… those who are stupid enough to believe… but NOT so toxically, droolingly stupid as to believe that it’s OK to despoil the earth because it’s going to be destroyed by a hippie Jewish zombie pretty soon, anyway. The same folks who think it’s OK to amass unrepayable debt because there’s not going to be anybody around to collect it.
So… for purposes of boogering up (pharangulating) this poll… what is the appropriate answer to this question, and what is the rationale behind that choice?
How long ’till these people accuse PZ of persecuting them with his ‘cyberpistol’?
It would seem that the entire site is down.
Sorry. It must have been me. I got in just fine a few minutes ago. Didn’t mean to break it.
“Do you support a ban on embryonic stem cell research (which destroys a human embryo that was going to be destroyed anyway)?: ”
It makes me so mad how that is consistently left out of the popular descriptions of embryonic stem cell research. These embryos are “rejects”, unsuitable for implantation and are to be destroyed whether you grow stem cells or not.
They must have read the comments,the site doesn’t open now.
24 Nov. 7:03 PST
Re #59
I’m starting to think it’s best to approach that kind of issue by positively reinforcing their belief when it works in favor of society. Only because you’ll never convince them that it’s a good thing to do unless they think their sky wizard is on board with it. I’ve also been thinking lately that it’s a bad idea to try and remove the theistic moral compass from the believers – it’s best to manipulate it. It seems to me that if a person’s entire moral system is based on god’s word, and you then remove god’s word from them, then they’ll have no mechanism to determine right from wrong. Rather, to be more accurate, with out the threat of hell they’ll have no motivation to do right let alone a sense of what IS right.
Also, if for no other reason, encouraging the believers to think their god wants them to care for the earth will at least curb some of the bat-shit crazies waiting for the second coming.
They may be resetting the vote, and putting in a block to this site. Not that this group would have any trouble getting to their site. Ah, the joys of voting twice to get on vote recorded.
Wait a second. The verb used in that Genesis 2 or 3 verse where God tells Adam to rule the world “and all beasts” and stuff means “to rule like a good king”. Some sort of stewardship, as opposed to exploitation, really does seem to be implied; the C**lt*r quote in comment 15 is wrong. So I voted “strongly agree”, even though I find it incredible that they don’t even provide an option for “I don’t care what the Bible says, I base my opinion on something else”.
Yes, because it helps bring the apocalypse closer. GLORY! As comment 23 says.
Me too. I voted “Run for president in 2012 [and completely destroy the Reptilian Party in the process]”.
BTW, I pretended to live in Oklahoma because that’s the state with the highest proportion of McShame voters. Real name and e-mail address — could become funny. :-)
No. Who asks an answer from the Internet shall get an answer from the Internet.
Huge compared to what?
It’s an awful question – but if I can ever get their survey page to work for me I’m going to pick ‘Strongly Agree’. The evidence that caring for our environment is necessary to our long-term well-being is strong. The survival response indicated by this evidence is not comparable to a devout Christian’s view of a ‘biblical mandate’, because new evidence could dismantle it. However – it is among the strongest justifications an atheist secular humanist could accept.
The question has no good answers. But ‘Strongly Agree’ does at least send the message that the environment needs to be cared for (as far as we know). Think about E.O. Wilson, and why he wrote The Creation .
I think it’s just over run with traffic, “d.o.s.” unintentionally, but “dosed” none the less. Maybe if we all stop refreshing out browsers for a min.
Looks like the site is broken. First couple of times I tried to submit, my browser could no longer connect to http://www.cc.org. The last time, I got an error page that said “Christian Coalition of America is currently under maintenance. We should be back shortly. Thank you for your patience. “
“Do you agree or disagree that we have a Biblical mandate to care for God’s creation and to protect our children’s future by curbing pollution that may alter our climate?”
I suppose if you understand “we” to mean the group asking the question (not necessarily including the reader) then the answer must be “strongly agree”. However, if “we” is meant to be “everyone”, then strongly disagree. I do not have a mandate from the bible, my mandate to protect the environment is from common sense and rationality.
If they had only worded it a little less personally, i.e. “Do you agree that the Bible mandates …” This leaves personal belief aside and just asks about what (you think) is written in the bible.
Ha! They shut down the site. The poll is now offline because of the crashing, no doubt.
They took the poll down.
Everyone knows polls are only valid when you get the answers you want.
There are other questions that allow the responder to express concern about the environment and climate change. It’s not necessary to “Strongly Agree” with the Biblical Mandate question. Yes, it’s a terrible question, but there’s nothing ambiguous about it. I answered “Strongly Disagree”.
Of course, the site is “off-line”, so my submission may not have been registered. It’s difficult to know. I wasn’t asked for any donations, though I did have to supply name, state, and email address for confirmation.
Hmmm… poll is crashed, site is crashed – stadard Drupal ‘site under maintenance’ message. I run a Drupal site, and in 6 months I’ve never had to put that message up… Maybe they are investigating why their godbots are not all voting for gun totin’ earth destroyin’ christianity…
You would think that GOD would help them keep their servers running…
It’s the end times!!!!one!eleven111!!
Couldn’t get in. I think they’re onto us. No matter; they’ll fudge the results.
It’s back! Go vote!
A huge amount compared to the “non-wealthy”. Wealthy people pay the lion’s share of taxes.
I think it’s an unreasonable to take the position that because person A can live better after paying his share of tax than person B, that person A needs to be taxed more so he suffers as much as person B. Nor is it reasonable to say that, based on the lack of wealth of person B, person A has excessive wealth and therefore owes a duty to give it up.
If you want to live in a free society, there will be disparities of wealth. If you stomp on the people at the high end, they’ll take their wealth somewhere else, or use it to stomp back, or both.
David Marjanović, OM, #67
No, nobody thinks that, apart from the caveat that there are enough people out there that you can always find someone advocating virtually any position. (Or maybe that was your own Poe? With you guys it is sometimes hard to distinguish positions from parody.)
Most Christians, even those who believe “the end is near,” would not advocate a cavalier attitude toward the environment because “oh, what the hell, Jesus is coming no later than June 12, 2027.”
The belief that the “Left-Behind” types don’t care about the environment because the second advent is imminent is a myth. I made a similar comment on Brayton’s blog not long ago. If you really think the end is near, in your lifetime, then if anything it makes you more circumspect in your behavior. You no more want to be caught dumping dioxin in the Allegheny River as Jesus floats down than you’d want to be caught boinking thy neighbor’s wife.
I pasted the link into a new tab, so the referrer field would be empty, and they wouldn’t know where I got the link. Nonetheless – I had to retry over 12 times before I got the survey page.
Now I’ve filled out the survey, but I keep getting:
Looks like “submit” no longer leads to a page asking for donations. Good on them for that.
They’re back up again–just submitted the survey. Be sure to copy and past the link into a new browser tab…
After reading the comments on the poll question page, I find myself wanting to take all the crazy christians’ computers and remove the cap-lock from them. What in the world is he talking about with having to earn zip codes? Or Rhinos? My brain has now turned to mush.
Evolving Squid @34,
The myth of the wealthy paying no tax is exactly that… a myth
I shall have to let my Trusts & Estates colleagues know that the clients who generate their (enviable) revenue are myths.
(To anticipate the pedantry: no, these clients usually can’t get away with paying no taxes. They almost always can get away with being taxed at a lower effective rate than skilled workers and the middle class.)
Oh, and as to your questions @51…
So really, do the rich really need to be taxed more? What purpose would that serve?
… easy, really. The answers are, of course, “yes” and “generate revenue for the state, to be used among other things for redistribution.” And I say that as one who will pay higher taxes under any more equitable scheme. (And to answer the question you didn’t ask: no, of course I don’t like the idea; but “not liking the idea” != “not thinking it the right thing to do”.)
“Crash the poll”? Hell, you all crashed the site!:D Good Work!
Site seems to be ‘under maintenance’ – offline anyway.
Oops, seems like they’re down (again?).
We blew the entire site cleanly offline! Well, messily.
It’s down again (“maintenance”). I’ll check back later, tho. I live on the West coast so I’m late to the party.
quoth heddle: If you really think the end is near, in your lifetime, then if anything it makes you more circumspect in your behavior. You no more want to be caught dumping dioxin in the Allegheny River as Jesus floats down than you’d want to be caught boinking thy neighbor’s wife.
That assume that the Left-Behind/Dominionists believes that there there is something morally wrong with dumping dioxin in the river. If the dioxin dumping is simply an unintended consequence of humans’ God-given right to subdue the earth, why would anyone worry about Jesus finding out?
(commenting on comments – the actual poll site is unavailable)
They probably have some godly work to do… OR they had truly scheduled a maintenance for today and this is all a coincidence. :P
Quite another topic:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2008/nov/19/george-bush-sarah-palin-books
But…but that would make them cry.
Site is up, poll is down. If you put http://www.cc.org/ in your address bar you still get their homepage. Pity.
heddle,
I would agree that they don’t consciously think pollution or environment destruction is a good way to accelerate time to Armageddon – but many really do believe it doesn’t matter. I have read more than just a few explicit statements that they think it simply can not happen. The environment can not be destroyed for the simple reason that God won’t let it happen if it’s a bad thing or against his plan.
Take their logic from there, and you’ll see them cowering on the edge of the stinking cesspools they have created, coughing from fatal infections, their skin peeling off and ulcerating, raising their eyes to the sky and asking, ‘wow, this sure is unexpected, but whatever, God wants it this way…’ Yes, they really are that stupid. I didn’t believe it either until I saw what they wrote. They are happy with preserving the mindset of a two-year-old in an adult body. Which really is only a soulbag for a while until the rewards come. Too bad we can’t see them throw themselves to the ground and pedalling their feet in a tantrum when they discover that death really is just that.
site is down.
It’s up and down like a tart’s knickers.
Well, okay now the whole site is down.
Theo Bromine, #92
Well, yeah. And if you think arguing against caricatures rather than the inconvenience of discussing what actual people actually believe is a rational approach–well then full speed ahead.
And I have to say your comment is bizarre, in that you grouped Left Behinders and Dominionists. But Left-Behinders tend, overwhelmingly not to be dominionists–dominionists are almost exclusively proponents of the exact opposite eschatology–they are post (rather than pre) millenialists. The union of Left Behinders and Dominionists is almost the empty set.
I get a mix of “down for maintenance” or a bunch of SQL fails. The server is doing spiral reboots.
…Is that a tear in my eye?
I can get to the main page, but almost anything I click on from there gives me the “site down for maintenance” message. But I’ll keep trying!
You know they are going to say that we “attacked” their site now. All we wanted to do was take part in their survey.
Correction: They have broken their site in an effort to block such balancing visits. Here’s part of the last response I got:
Watchdog, indeed.
“Page not found”
FYI, they just changed the URL of the poll to this: http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey
It’s back up. I entered through the main site and it went up just fine now.
We all need to remember that the Christian Coalition was founded by Pat Robertson and is the same organization who gave the USA Ralph Reed–the brownshirt of Karl Rove who aided in the Abramoff Scandal, was involved in election rigging while still in college, and was complicit in account fraud while National Director of the Christian Coalition.
Repugnants love to call themselves Federalists. They have read the Federalists Papers but they see it as a manual for how to destroy the common good. The federalists wrote “neither moral nor religious motives can be relied on” as a check and balance against oppressive majorities. Representative governments become infected by the representatives subverting the general will (which is not an aggregate of private wills); popular majorities ruling oppressively; and the majorities, through compliant representatives, failing to protect the common good. “There is often a great deal of difference between the will of all and the general will. The latter looks only to the common interest; the former considers private interest and is only a sum of private wills” (Rousseau). The federalist also wrote large republics tend to be wealthy and populous which fosters envy in their neighbors which in turn nurtures a despotic and warlike state in the republic. The wealth of large republics, according to the federalists, inevitably leads to social inequality and class struggle.
The Repugnants forget that the function of the Federalist Papers was to convince the electorate (the electoral voters) to adopt the Constitution and abandon the Articles of Confederacy. The “states rights” clauses are an ad hoc comprise.
Repugnants are a Chimaera:
Lion: “fiscal conservatives” (oligarchs and socio-economic elitists)
Snake: “social conservatives” (religious fascists)
Goat: “minimal government” proponents (libertarians)
In order to keep the Chimaera alive, the snake drove votes by appealing to “value voters”. The goat silently stripped civil liberties from the populous. The goat essentially wants a return to the Articles of Confederacy. The lion fed its oligarch keepers through unconstitutional economic policies such as “Voodoo economics” and “trickle down economics”, and placated the populous by feeding them mana–stimulus checks.
This Link Works.
If not, try their home page and click on “2008 Survey” and then “Take the survey”
I can get to the main page, but almost anything I click on from there gives me the “site down for maintenance” message. But I’ll keep trying!
…..Nevermind, I just got in…..
Filled in on the new link. I guess this means they’re on to us.
I just went to their members blog area, and look what the first thing that popped up was…
///”I’m sitting in my public high school at the computer lab next to a black girl, an Asian girl, another white boy, and an Indian girl. Is this what America has come to? So racially diverse where “minorities” are hardly the minority of the population. They’re taking over our world and the path that America is going down is not a good one. Sure, God loves everyone, but aren’t there some above the others? I wasn’t raised in this country so that it could be taken over.”///
retarded
*shakes head*
Question #2 in Section 2:
Do you support the appointment of judges that will strictly interpret the Constitution and not “make law”?:
The federalists argued that “judicial review and judicial discretion in adjudicating individual cases gives constitutional means to void oppressive legislative and executive authority.” Hence, the federalists argued for what the neocons call “activist judges”.
“Should criminals be held liable for harm they cause to unborn children?”
Unbelievably dishonest question.
Did they yank the poll? I get a page not found from the link.
@115: The link was updated. Check #109.
Ewww… I have to give them a valid e-mail. Okay, I’ll give them my spammy account used for just this sort of thing.
Found the correct link and took the survey. Interesting, even considering their target audience.
bsk#114: Dishonest, yes – unexpected, no.
Filled out survey… clicked submit… “page not found”
I’ve tried everything Skeptico says, and a few other ways:
“Page Not Found”, even if you get there through their homepage.
:-(
lol, I love crashing polls :-)
You need to right-click the link and select “Copy Link Location”, then paste it into your address window to get around their blockage. But otherwise the survey is still accessable.
The link didn’t work, but I found the survey by going to the sites home page.
The wealthy pay too much in taxes? I’m just curious, how does one arrive in this bizarre dimension that the people who argue this inhabit?
First, the wealthiest 10% do pay most of the money that our country receives in tax revenue, what most of those who argue this forget to mention is that they also own more than 90% of everything as well. Now think about that for a moment, they own 90% of all wealth in the country, but pay 71% of the taxes … if you don’t see a discrepancy here, you are being willfully obtuse.
Second, those who advocate for tax “fairness” seem to ignore the fact that the wealthy have been working the system for years. On average the top brackets pay 17.2% in taxes (after deductions, etc.), the middle class? 17.8%.
The debate is really about where on the Laffer curve one actually sees diminishing returns. The Republican party has convinced many that the point on the curve is far below where moderates or liberals argue.
@Evolving Squid
The problem is that there is a gulf between the cumulative wealth of the rich and the cumulative wealth of the poor that hasn’t been seen since the gilded age.
Yes rich people pay the majority of the taxes. It would be hard not to as they have systematically acquired (nefariously) all the capital that used to belong to the middle and working class.
If rich people want to pay less tax, then get rid of the class warfare redistribution upwards supply side economics that have pauperised the majority of people and let the majority have the fair share of the money again.
You need to right-click the link and select “Copy Link Location”, then paste it into your address window to get around their blockage. But otherwise the survey is still accessable.
What blockage? The link in PZ’s original article works just fine. I just checked it seconds ago.
Haha, the page keeps moving around, from http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey to http://www.cc.org/webform/2008_american_values_survey.
Ha ha ha ha, they’re trying to hide it from us, lol :-)
Asswipes would not let me vote. I guess my answers kicked in their magic, I mean – God-driven anti-liberal screen.
On the home page they have a poll asking what Sarah Palin should do in the future. Run for President…Senator…Governor? Oddly, crawling in a hole and pulling the hole in after her was not an option, so I couldn’t vote.
@#100
“empty headed”? Or maybe you meant the intersection?
J-Dog, if you got the message “page not found” then the page was moved the page while you were filling out the form. That happened to me. Just try the other URL and be quick about entering your responses :)
This looks like a completely pointless poll, even from their perspective. I’m guessing this is one of those things where they don’t even bother looking at the results. It’s just a way to get people to the donations page after making them feel like they’ve contributed something of value to the organization.
Don’t just follow the link from here. Copy and paste it into your browser’s URL line. That’s how I got to the survey. I just answered the questions honestly, but I must say this is dreadful survey design.
SplendidMonkey,
I did, thanks. !*&%^%$ new math.
(The union is not very big either, given that there are not many dominionists. They kind of peaked around Y2K.)
“Fighting to oppose the radical expansion of abortion in our country”
……….
(Sound of brutal knocking on door)
Oh my god, Helen, it’s the abortion police! Quick, hide, my love, so that our unborn child may live!
(Sound of door being kicked in)
“Aha! So, what do we have here, hmm? Looks like a (ominous pause) PREGNANT woman! Thought you could sneak a fetus through, eh? Ahahahaha! Heinrich! Bring the clamps!”
Now its back to…http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey
What a fun survey. Full of poorly-worded questions (I think it was the very first one that I couldn’t tell whether I was agreeing/disagreeing with the statement against the issue, or the issue), and landmines (I agree that we need to improve our earth, but I don’t believe it was mandated by the bible). Ugh.
Oh well, at least I got in. Too bad the results aren’t public so we can’t see whether they cherry-pick them.
It’s not so much as jamming the signal as improving the signal to noise ratio in order to provide more accurate readings.
Easily fudged results, but they also don’t control who votes very well…I have enough email addresses that I could count as several people (several more if I were willing to give CC my work email).
I used noreferer to go to the survey, and got “Page not found.”
Here is the corrected link. A click on the preview seems to show they’re not blocking referrers from Pharyngula.
Interesting results of the poll bombing:
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Warning: Table ‘watchdog’ is read only query: INSERT INTO watchdog (uid, type, message, severity, link, location, referer, hostname, timestamp) VALUES (0, ‘php’, ‘Can’t create/write to file ‘/var/lib/mysql/#sql_a63_0.MYI’ (Errcode: 30)nquery: SELECT DISTINCT(p.perm) FROM role r INNER JOIN permission p ON p.rid = r.rid WHERE r.rid IN (1) in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174.’, 2, ”, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘192.91.173.36’, 1227548074) in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174
Warning: Table ‘watchdog’ is read only query: INSERT INTO watchdog (uid, type, message, severity, link, location, referer, hostname, timestamp) VALUES (0, ‘php’, ‘Can’t create/write to file ‘/var/lib/mysql/#sql_a63_0.MYI’ (Errcode: 30)nquery: SELECT t.* FROM term_node r INNER JOIN term_data t ON r.tid = t.tid INNER JOIN vocabulary v ON t.vid = v.vid WHERE (t.tid IN (’58’,’60’,’61’,’62’,’63’,’64’,’65’,’66’,’67’,’68’,’69’,’70’,’71’,’72’,’73’,’74’,’75’,’76’,’77' in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174
Warning: Table ‘watchdog’ is read only query: INSERT INTO watchdog (uid, type, message, severity, link, location, referer, hostname, timestamp) VALUES (0, ‘php’, ‘Cannot modify header information – headers already sent by (output started at /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc:174) in /var/www/html/includes/common.inc on line 141.’, 2, ”, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘192.91.173.36’, 1227548074) in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174
Warning: Table ‘watchdog’ is read only query: INSERT INTO watchdog (uid, type, message, severity, link, location, referer, hostname, timestamp) VALUES (0, ‘php’, ‘Table ‘watchdog’ is read onlynquery: INSERT INTO watchdog (uid, type, message, severity, link, location, referer, hostname, timestamp) VALUES (0, ‘access denied’, ‘node/743’, 1, ”, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘192.91.173.36’, 1227548074) in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174.’, 2, ”, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘192.91.173.36’, 1227548074) in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174
Warning: Table ‘watchdog’ is read only query: INSERT INTO watchdog (uid, type, message, severity, link, location, referer, hostname, timestamp) VALUES (0, ‘php’, ‘Can’t create/write to file ‘/var/lib/mysql/#sql_a63_0.MYI’ (Errcode: 30)nquery: SELECT DISTINCT b.* FROM blocks b LEFT JOIN blocks_roles r ON b.module = r.module AND b.delta = r.delta WHERE b.theme = ‘cc’ AND b.status = 1 AND (r.rid IN (1) OR r.rid IS NULL) ORDER BY b.region, b.weight, b.module in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174.’, 2, ”, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘192.91.173.36’, 1227548074) in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174
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• user warning: Can’t create/write to file ‘/var/lib/mysql/#sql_a63_0.MYI’ (Errcode: 30) query: SELECT DISTINCT(p.perm) FROM role r INNER JOIN permission p ON p.rid = r.rid WHERE r.rid IN (1) in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174.
• user warning: Can’t create/write to file ‘/var/lib/mysql/#sql_a63_0.MYI’ (Errcode: 30) query: SELECT t.* FROM term_node r INNER JOIN term_data t ON r.tid = t.tid INNER JOIN vocabulary v ON t.vid = v.vid WHERE (t.tid IN (’58’,’60’,’61’,’62’,’63’,’64’,’65’,’66’,’67’,’68’,’69’,’70’,’71’,’72’,’73’,’74’,’75’,’76’,’77’,’78’,’79’,’80’,’81’,’82’,’83’,’84’,’85’,’86’,’87’,’88’,’89’,’90’,’91’,’92’,’93’,’94’,’95’,’96’,’97’,’98’,’100′,’101′,’102′,’103′,’104′,’105′,’106′,’107′,’108′,’109′,’110′,’111′,’112′,’113′,’114′,’115′,’116′,’117′,’118′,’119′,’120′,’121′,’122′,’123′,’124′,’125′,’126′,’127′,’128′,’129′,’130′,’131′,’132′,’133′,’134′,’135′,’136′,’137′,’138′,’139′,’140′,’141′,’142′,’143′,’144′,’145′,’146′,’147′,’148′,’149′,’150′,’151′,’152′,’153′,’154′,’155′,’156′,’157′,’158′,’159′,’160′,’161′,’162′,’163′,’164′,’165′,’166′,’167′,’168′,’169′,’170′,’171′,’173′,’174′,’175′,’176′,’177′,’178′,’179′,’180′,’181′,’182′,’183′,’184′,’185′,’186′,’187′,’189′,’190′,’191′,’192′,’193′,’194′,’195′,’196′,’197′,’198′,’199′,’200′,’201′,’202′,’203′,’204′,’205′,’206′,’207′,’208′,’209′,’210′,’211′,’212′,’213′,’214′,’215′,’216′,’217′,’218′,’219′,’220′,’221′,’222′,’223′,’224′,’225′,’226′,’227′,’228′,’229′,’230′,’231′,’232′,’233′,’234′,’235′,’236′,’237′,’238′,’240′,’241′,’242′,’243′,’244′,’245′,’246′,’247′,’248′,’249′,’250′,’251′,’252′,’253′,’254′,’255′,’256′,’257′,’258′,’259′,’260′,’261′,’262′,’263′,’264′,’265′,’266′,’267′,’268′,’269′,’270′,’271′,’272′,’273′,’274′,’275′,’276′,’277′,’278′,’279′,’280′,’281′,’282′,’283′,’284′,’285′,’286′,’287′,’288′,’289′,’290′,’291′,’292′,’293′,’294′,’295′,’296′,’297′,’298′,’300′,’301′,’302′,’303′,’304′,’305′,’306′,’307′,’308′,’309′,’310′,’311′,’312′,’313′,’314′,’316′,’317′,’318′,’319′,’320′,’321′,’322′,’323′,’324′,’325′,’326′,’327′,’328′,’329′,’330′,’331′,’332′,’333′,’334′,’335′,’336′,’337′,’338′,’339′,’340′,’341′,’342′,’343′,’344′,’345′,’346′,’347′,’348′,’349′,’350′,’351′,’352′,’353′,’354′,’355′,’356′,’357′,’358′,’359′,’361′,’362′,’363′,’364′,’365′,’366′,’367′,’368′,’369′,’370′,’371′,’372′,’373′,’374′,’375′,’376′,’377′,’378′,’379′,’380′,’381′,’382′,’383′,’384′,’385′,’386′,’387′,’388′,’389′,’390′,’391′,’392′,’393′,’394′,’395′,’396′,’397′,’398′,’399′,’400′,’401′,’402′,’403′,’404′)) AND ( r.nid = 743 ) ORDER BY v.weight, t.weight, t.name in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174.
• warning: Cannot modify header information – headers already sent by (output started at /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc:174) in /var/www/html/includes/common.inc on line 141.
• user warning: Table ‘watchdog’ is read only query: INSERT INTO watchdog (uid, type, message, severity, link, location, referer, hostname, timestamp) VALUES (0, ‘access denied’, ‘node/743’, 1, ”, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘192.91.173.36’, 1227548074) in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174.
• Access denied. You may need to login below or register to access this page.
• user warning: Can’t create/write to file ‘/var/lib/mysql/#sql_a63_0.MYI’ (Errcode: 30) query: SELECT DISTINCT b.* FROM blocks b LEFT JOIN blocks_roles r ON b.module = r.module AND b.delta = r.delta WHERE b.theme = ‘cc’ AND b.status = 1 AND (r.rid IN (1) OR r.rid IS NULL) ORDER BY b.region, b.weight, b.module in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174.
Username or e-mail address: *
You may login with either your assigned username or your e-mail address.
Password: *
The password field is case sensitive.
Warning: Table ‘watchdog’ is read only query: INSERT INTO watchdog (uid, type, message, severity, link, location, referer, hostname, timestamp) VALUES (0, ‘php’, ‘Incorrect key file for table ‘./cc/accesslog.MYI’; try to repair itnquery: INSERT INTO accesslog (title, path, url, hostname, uid, sid, timer, timestamp) values(‘Access Denied / User Login’, ‘user’, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘192.91.173.36’, 0, ‘10933123838a296eb1e80c8fe18d3697’, 2701, 1227548074) in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174.’, 2, ”, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘192.91.173.36’, 1227548074) in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174
Warning: Table ‘watchdog’ is read only query: INSERT INTO watchdog (uid, type, message, severity, link, location, referer, hostname, timestamp) VALUES (0, ‘php’, ‘Incorrect key file for table ‘./cc/sessions.MYI’; try to repair itnquery: SELECT sid FROM sessions WHERE sid = ‘10933123838a296eb1e80c8fe18d3697’ in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174.’, 2, ”, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey’, ‘192.91.173.36’, 1227548074) in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174
Warning: Table ‘watchdog’ is read only query: INSERT INTO watchdog (uid, type, message, severity, link, location, referer, hostname, timestamp) VALUES (0, ‘php’, ‘Incorrect key file for table ‘./cc/sessions.MYI’; try to repair itnquery: INSERT INTO sessions (sid, uid, cache, hostname, session, timestamp) VALUES (‘10933123838a296eb1e80c8fe18d3697’, 0, 0, ‘192.91.173.36’, ‘og_last|N;messages|a:1:{s:5:\"error\";a:1:{i:0;s:456:\"user warning: Incorrect key file for table './cc/accesslog.MYI'; try to repair it\nquery: INSERT INTO accesslog (title, path, url, hostname, uid, sid, timer, timestamp) values('Access Denied / User Login', 'user', 'http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey', '192.91.173.36& in /var/www/html/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 174
their database is an ex-database. it has joined the server farm invisible. it has…
anyways, i hope they kept good backups, because they’re gonna need ’em.
Massive MySQL errors on submit, maybe it’s already hosed?
now the entire “cc.org” domain seems to be down completely. they’re not just playing hijinx with us, they’re genuinely struggling to keep their machines up, i think.
i’d offer my services as an IT consultant, but i’d have to work pretty expensively seeing as it’s them, and somehow i doubt they’d entirely trust me if they ever tied me to this pseudonym…
Ha ha ha ha, it would now appear that we have crached the entire site!!!!
Too funny :-)
(give us another one, PZ)
Just don’t let this thread die…we’ve got to hit em as soon as they get it back up….
It has joined the choir invisible… ah, how fitting.
From domaintools for the entire cc.org domain:
Alexa Trend/Rank: #886,639: Down 594,432 ranks over the last three months.
Compete Rank: #172,767 with 8,079 U.S. visitors per month
As compared to scienceblogs.com:
Alexa Trend/Rank: #13,385: Up 17 ranks over the last three months.
Compete Rank: #5,282 with 331,058 U.S. visitors per month
God must be going out of style?
I hated the question that asked whether or not criminals aught to be punished for harming a fetus. Yes, of course they should be charged! Nobody disputes this. But they should be charged on behalf of the mother. It is she that they have harmed. She is the victim. But when social conservatives ask this sort of question they almost always take an affirmative answer to mean that charges should be laid on behalf of the fetus.
I’m from Canada and we just got finished pummeling bill C-484 that would have made it possible to charge someone for harming a fetus during an attack on the mother. I would have wholeheartedly supported this if it named the woman as the victim of the crime, but it did not. The harm done to her was not recognized by this bill, only the harm done to her fetus. And throughout the whole fight the conservatives constantly pointed to the fact that most folks think it should be a crime to damage or kill a woman’s fetus, to claim that their bill had support.
I do think that people should be charged if they damage or kill a woman’s fetus against her will. But I could not answer in the affirmative with their question because that answer is too often misrepresented and used to claim support for stances I have never taken. Stupid conservatives and their stupid loaded questions. Phoey.
It’s getting to the point where PZ can (unintentionally) DDOS a site just by linking to it.
Mission Accomplished!
(Link fails as of 10:36A PDT)
Blake (#142) was that really necessary? 6.5 screens of repetitive gibberish? At least point out what’s “interesting” about it.
bsk said:
I think they broke their database themselves in a stupid attempt to preserve the skewness of their poll.
There’s a nice table there that shows who pays the taxes. However, the short summary: People who make over $108k collectively pay about 71% of US income taxes, but represent only 10% of US tax payers according to 2006 numbers. In fact, the top 1% pay about 39% of the total US income taxes.
So really, do the rich really need to be taxed more? What purpose would that serve?
What purpose would it serve? It would serve the purpose of getting more tax dollars. Isn’t that what taxes are for? You can’t tax people who don’t have money. But how about if we go back to the tax rates of the 50’s? Conservatives love the 50’s right? So the top tax rate can go to 93%. I think that’s fair.
11:15 PST Home page was at and I did the survey:
http://www.cc.org/node
It moved again… It is the Scarlet Pimpernel of web polls. Except the Frenchies probably don’t give a shit about this one.
Current location of survey: http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey
I got in by pasting
http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey
into my browser.
I agree it is poorly designed poll. And of course they can just toss out all the ones they disagree with and report any results they want.
This is the donation page:
No mention if the poll results get through if you don’t donate.
Someone should try if they accept a donation of 0.00 $, but I’m too lazy to make up an address in Oklahoma, complete with zip code…
I think it is reasonable to take the position that money should be taken from where it is, not from where it isn’t. I also think it is reasonable to take the position of comment 53: if you are so rich that you can live in luxury for the rest of your life without ever moving a finger again, you can pay through your nose without noticing it.
I do not think that being rich should be abolished. The bourgeoisie should not be abolished; the proletariat should be abolished. If Bill Gates can become a trillionaire in spite of paying reasonable taxes*, that doesn’t hurt me, so let him if he finds it fun. :-|
However, becoming rich should be rewarded over being rich. The former creates jobs, the latter only creates numbered accounts in Switzerland.
* I haven’t factored in his near-monopoly, which is an unfair advantage. On the other hand, I also haven’t factored in the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation which gives impressive amounts of money to all manner of good causes.
No, I was serious. Incredible as it is, such people really do exist — *nn C**lt*r and James Watt have been quoted above.
This might (ignoring the highly relevant comment 92) be the outcome if they would spend 10 seconds per lifetime thinking about this question, as opposed to 5 seconds. But they don’t.
And besides, what Allegheny River? It will be destroyed anyway when Jesus floats down. :-|
Yet another relevant argument: where I come from, any attempt to accelerate the Second Coming would be seen as incredible blasphemy, not only because it would amount to telling God what to do when, but also because of Mark 13:32. But “Left Behind” types do not read Mark 13:32, or for that matter any of the places where it says “the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night” ( = without any warning in advance). They just don’t.
Outside of presidential elections, I don’t consider you one of them, but really batshit crazy Christians (and Protestants at that) really do exist. That’s a sad fact, but it’s a fact.
————–
Yes, Blake, please explain the error messages you posted. I don’t understand them.
Christians suck, jesus christ.
Posted by: spgreenlaw | November 24, 2008 8:57 AM
” Should criminals who, let’s say, attack the pregnant mother and end up injuring or killing the fetus suffer additional charges?”
This is always a tough one because of what you stated earlier in your post. I did not see anyone else respond to it. I chose “undecided” in the poll.
My solution is that if a pregnancy is terminated by someone else without the mother’s written consent, or if the fetus in injured, it should be an additional crime. The only exception would be if the mother is unconcious or fro some reason unable to communicate and removal of the fetus is necessary to save her life.
Some of the questions I thought interesting:
1. The question about federal tax reform was limited. I feel the tax system should be simplified, period. There are more options to reforming the tax system than “flat tax” and “national sales tax”.
2. Biblical mandate? I’ll agree that we have to take care of the environment, but this is Biblically based? Give me a break!
I answered what I could, at least.
ooh… I love to screw around with those bozo’s.
State… ummm… what US state contrasts the most with my secular European liberal values? Ah of course. Texas. Done and Done :D
Aujourd’hui tout le mond sont Minnesotains.
@108: If you think libertarians are trying to strip civil liberties, you’d better look up what the word ‘libertarian’ means. Indeed, protection of civil liberties is what drove the majority of libertarians (including myself, after the Barr campaign went conservative) to Obama in 2008, which says quite a bit when you consider our disagreements with him on many issues (e.g., his pro-war stances, opposition to gay marriage, pro-deficit spending, etc.)
And while we’re on the topic, if you’ll examine the 9th and 10th Amendments to the Constitution, you’ll notice that there’s no such thing as states rights, only individual rights. “States Rights” are an invention of populists and conservatives intended to allow them to continue social battles (to deny civil liberties/rights) at a state level after losing the battles at the national level. Very few libertarians want to introduce a tortured and historically inaccurate reading of the Constitution for the sole purpose of allowing conservatives to advance wingnut ideas to which we are strongly opposed.
Of course now the poll has disappeared, and the Palin one I CAN’T crash, so…?
You owe me a poll to crash!
Got to #106 – it works.
Posted by: Rye | November 24, 2008 11:40 AM
FYI, they just changed the URL of the poll to this: http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey
They have moved the poll: http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey
Your work is done. The link goes to a “Page Not Found” message.
Bravo!
If you click on the Home page you can get to the new survey, all they did is move the old one after we crashed the link. I added my thoughts, I bet they are going to be pissed when they don’t get the results they wanted!!
It’s accessible again.
Do they have the current results posted anywhere? I’m surprised (or maybe not) that they haven’t posted them somewhere.
I crashed the poll, on the link provided by vince and Tom Coward, and said I was from Maine. Does lying count? (I’m really from Canada!)
Ooops – sorry guys. You’re right, too much.
It’s just extremely lame to see an error like this. They give away the IP address of their database server, the username they use to connect to it, directories that they’re writing to, and a bunch of the SQL statements and database table structures inside that database.
It’s like they’re begging someone to hack them. Very, very lame. And funny :)
It was a short poll. “Page not found” :-)
Using the top 10% (from the link I posted), the answer to your question is: just over 47% of the total gross income, for which the top 10% pay just under 71% of the total taxes collected.
Or, if you prefer… 90% of your country make 53% of the money and pay 29% of the taxes collected.
I’m Canadian, and I don’t have the Canadian stats handy, but they’re similar.
@86
Although that is a logically consistent position, I can’t say I agree that the government is necessarily in the best position to determine who should and should not be allowed to keep or receive wealth.
Someone else said that the current system has “pauperised” people. I find it quite a challenge to believe that, within the G8 at least, anyone has been pauperised. People who think that have no idea what it’s like to be poor and should, perhaps, spend more time in a rabidly communist country where wealth is well distributed and everyone is effectively poor… or in a central African country where people really are poor.
Not being able to drive a Rolls like the president of the company you work for doesn’t make you downtrodden.
Torquing up rich people DOES make them take their money elsewhere. Canada, for example, has enacted much legislation attempting to curtail the ability of people to get their money out of Canada to places where the government can’t touch it. My understanding is that there has been limited success in this regard, but it’s also causing people to be more devious in hiding their money.
Page is up again. Make sure you copy and paste the following URL in a new tab
http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey
I hope PZ updates the link. They apparently didn’t like what the results were from the first one.
Utah. a host of liberals in utah would REALLY confuse them
Just so it’s clear, I’m in that top 10% too, and although I have no problem seeing my taxes going to education, health, defence, and even enough welfare that people aren’t starving in the streets, I have a HUGE problem with handouts that do nothing but create families of people who nurse from the government tit, generation after generation.
Now, I’m Canadian and our handouts are more generous, but I assure you that there are far too many people who are quite content to just live on the dole, and plenty who consider it a personal accomplishment to screw the taxpayer for every bit of money imaginable. I doubt very much that the situation in the USA is much different.
It’s a simple fact that there will be rich people and poor people in a system with any kind of freedom, and I don’t feel that there is a huge obligation for the people on the top of the pile to drag up the bottom. The only obligation is for the people on top not to unfairly press down on the people at the bottom.
It seems to be up at the top link posted at #127.
It’s moved again, but searching for survey worked.
Actually, from your link, they are making 44% of the total gross income and pay 68% of the federal income taxes. Not sure the 3% makes a difference, but also not sure why you are reporting different numbers than your own source either. The big difference, is that it is not “71% (or 68%) of total taxes collected” as you claim, but of total federal income taxes collected. State income taxes have different distributions, although they are mostly the same as federal. However, sales and use taxes, while not having the simple data available for income taxes, are generally agreed by economists to heavily affect poorer people more. (Intuitively this makes sense, a lower income household will often not have the opportunity to save and rather spend all their money, while higher incomes will save, and savings arent taxes.) Social Security and Medicare have contribution ceilings, resulting in significant biases in affecting the poor vs rich. So those numbers dont tell the whole story. The sources I have been able to find that do try to view the total tax burden on a household, show a far less progressive structure and often a regressive structure. (See the following which computes it as pretty flat: http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/piketty-saezJEP07taxprog.pdf, before even factoring in the sales and use taxes)
Before I try to consider solutions to that problem, perhaps you could be so good as to provide evidence that such people actually exist?
Something tells me they were not satisfied with the results. :P
Evolving squid @51
But how much do the top 1% make? If they account for 31% of all income tax paid but collect 80% of all income made wouldn’t raising thier income tax make the system “fairer?”
They have moved it to http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey
@180, re: “personal accomplishment to screw the taxpayer”
Preach it. I think the de facto liberal response to that sort of comment is to sneer at it as a straw boogieman constructed by Rethuglican tax dodgers, but I’ve met the people you’re talking about and been appalled at their conversations. Sadly, I don’t think there’s any way to flush them out of the system without making social aid more difficult to obtain by those who really need it, and that’s the last thing anybody wants to see happen.
Well, I filled it out. Real information and everything. I hope that’s for verification purposes and not to send me a bunch of Christian spam.
Luckily, I have a spare email account for just this kind of business. Kept under the name of Patrick Bateman, as it happens…
Oh, F That, I’m not giving them my email address.
Sorry.
Evolving Squid @ 180 and Stephen Couchman @ 187:
I won’t quibble with you that there does exist at least one person who is “content to live on the dole” or however you want to phrase it. I would like to know if either of you believe that such people exist in high enough numbers to have any significant effect on government spending. That is, how many of these types of people are too many, in your opinions, and why? Do you have any evidence that the number of people who are essentially deliberately living off of the state have reached the level you consider unacceptable?
Evolving Squid, can you cite your assertion that wealthy Canadians are desperate to get their money out of Canada?
To those who mentioned the Palin sidepoll, I must conquer. I can’t resist a poll, but there was no “crawl inside the oven and start reading, which would certainly result in her falling asleep” so I had to fight it.
get a fake email at yahoo or gmail. thats why they exist!!
Ha! Concur, sorry.
I’m not. I posted two sources. I quote from the first because it was more detailed, you read the second.
I personally know people who live like this, and have my whole life. I have relatives right now who are second or third-generation welfare recipients and they are NOT unusual exceptions. I’ll see if I can find some kind of published report on it.
@191
I suppose it would be hard to cite “desperation”, but relatively recent changes to tax laws would indicate that there is sufficient numbers of people moving money out of the country that the government felt it had to enact legislation to stem the tide.
For example, Canadians have for the last few years been required to declare all foreign assets. It’s no longer enough that you’re taxed in Canada on the money you make in Canada, you’re also taxed on the money you make out of Canada. This was brought in, as I recall, because immigrants from places like the Arabian peninsula and Hong Kong were keeping large foreign assets then beyond the reach of the Canadian tax man. It’s also intended to cover things like Swiss bank accounts, but it’s difficult for the government to enforce this law on things like that.
That’s an easy example.
Yay! I live in New Zealand and feel proud that I can have an extremely miniscule influence on US politicking.
I say we over-represent Hawaii in this poll.
I said I was from Idaho.
No doubt this happens, but I think it is overstated. From what I have seen of it, people tend to lose out as the system is designed by people who can cope but used by those who can’t manage so don’t understand the hoops they need to jump through. In addition, there are other problems. For example, if a single mother has her children taken into care for a month to give her a break, the child allowance stops the day the children leave. However, it does not start again for two or three months after she gets the children back. In the meantime, the main practical choices for someone with no training and children at home are prostitution or selling drugs.
url changed
http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey
I googled “Christian Coalition” and got to their main page just now with no trouble. But there’s a problem with proceeding to the poll. An ethical problem.
The link says:
“We’re conducting a massive survey of America’s politically active Christians so we can show the politicians and the media where we stand.
“By participating, you will help send a powerful message that Christians are ready to fight back against the assault on our values being waged in the halls of our government. Take the survey and send them a strong message not to ignore the issues and concerns of America’s Christians.”
PZ was incensed that they were taking a private poll on “American values”. And using that title certainly is dishonest of them, but no more so than usual. They’ve always claimed they’re the only “real Americans”.
This is a private survey of their own constituents, and nobody else is invited. There’s nothing in the questionnaire (I didn’t submit it, so I don’t know what the “Donate” page says) that lets you say you’re not a Xian. Seems to me, if you take part in this thing, you’re implying that you are a “politically active Christian”.
Do you agree or disagree that we have a Biblical mandate to care for God’s creation and to protect our children’s future by curbing pollution that may alter our climate?:
How do I answer that? I strongly agree that we have a duty to care for the Earth to protect our children’s future. But, I don’t believe we have a “Biblical mandate” or that there’s a God for the Earth to be his creation! I went ahead and selected agree.
Intersection. The union is quite large.
‘T comes tumbling down with a loud BAAAANG! BTW the morons over there changed the URL, as if noone could type “american values survey” in the “search” function. Sheesh!
http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey
@25: regarding the ‘biblical mandate’ for improving the climate I said ‘strongly agree’.
Being of another religion then them (Wiccan) I obviously had issues with that sentence. But if you ask someone who does not follow your particular fairy tale how they interpret what your book says do not be surprised that they have a different interpretation. :)
The only way to describe this is “push poll”! They had to make sure that you knew that Embryonic Stem Cell Research “kills an embryo” and that their is a “constitutional right” to carry a gun. I can’t figure out why people pay attention to the results of these utterly unscientific polls which are geared towards getting the results they want. Continue crashing and enjoy the whining!
Hmm …. no confirmation email after more than half an hour. I wonder if I got filtered out for a majority of my answers not agreeing with them, for using gmail, or for not giving a contribution. Or some combination.
Or if they just crashed again. :)
No confirmation email does set off alarms.
You’ll probably never know if you got filtered out.
But you can’t be surprized they didn’t show you the results so far. It says at the bottom of the questionnaire:
Let’s just hope they keep the confidentiality promise :-)
Link seems to be broken.
The poll is also at http://www.cc.org/webform/american_values_survey
http://www.cc.org/poll/which_issues_are_most_important_you_coming_election
this survey is also worth crashing
Like I always do, I used a real e-mail address. It’s my cat’s, though. He’s very liberal.
Also, his name is Tycho Brahe. Safe to use because none of these people ever seem to have heard of him.
Once you fill in the survey (which I did from Australia- putting ‘undecided’ on things like taxes- you’d think they’d check that?), they ask for donations against “attacks from the left”. Oh no, the left wing. I’m quaking in my boots.