My email was just beginning to calm down, and now Bill Donohue rants again. He names me and fsmdude, and since people can’t find a mailing address for a guy named “fsmdude”, all these cranky little old Catholic ladies are sending me their shrill denunciations of youtube videos, instead.
Oh, and Bully Billy has conveniently forgotten the history already: “It was a professor from the University of Minnesota, Morris campus, Paul Z. Myers, who started the war on the Eucharist this past summer by intentionally desecrating a consecrated Host.” I guess he never ever called for the expulsion and arrest of a student for violating a Catholic sacrament now.
Don’t get to mad at them, they’re still really pissed that California passed laws against foster parents teaching their children to hate homosexuality.
A parent should be able to teach and spread intolerance and hatred! It’s their God-given religious freedom, right?
They need an outlet to yell at us godless, moral-less atheists, and your inbox is it. As my coworker so eloquently said today:
We sinners provide a valuable service. Without us on the road to hell, Christians would have nothing to feel smug about.
The bastard!
No, no, that was just a strategic airstrike. Your retaliation was WAR! ;-)
I’m so bored with Catholics being pissed about this now. Can they stop being mirror images of fundamentalist Islam for a couple months?!
Just tell these rabid religious retards that if they want to contact you let their god do it and you’ll be all ears and will patiently wait for a message. Morons.
Awwww, don’t be so hard on these religious folks, PZ. I mean, if you’d spent all of your life venerating some make-believe stuff that was obviously crazy, you’d be sensitive to any criticism too. Except, you’d never have been suckered in like these clowns. Pahhhh! They deserve all the rough treatment they get from us.
He’s still mad that he didn’t get you fired. At my last count you are up to six diatribes from Bill Donohue.
Just tell these rabid religious retards that if they want to contact you let their god do it and you’ll be all ears and will patiently wait for a message. Morons.
I knew Donahue was a pompous, superstitious blowhard years before I ever encountered Fair ‘n’ Cooler.
Just tell these rabid religious retards that if they want to contact you let their god do it and you’ll be all ears and will patiently wait for a message. Morons.
Just tell these rabid religious retards that if they want to contact you let their god do it and you’ll be all ears and will patiently wait for a message. Morons.
He should be proud, since his rantings almost certainly increased the amount of “sacrilege” happening on Youtube.
We should assume that basically he’s taking credit for (many of) the “desecrations” now.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
You’re a real, live Demonic force they can stand against, though. Your powers of cracker destruction and the ability to influence others into hurtful acts against crackers makes you a dangerous and deadly (to crackers) foe to cracker lovers everywhere.
Just tell these rabid religious retards that if they want to contact you let their god do it and you’ll be all ears and will patiently wait for a message. Morons.
One more time, Moron.
The real problem is that you don’t get paid for letters, only website traffic.
aaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwww dont worry PZ…
in a couple hundred years they will realize they were ranting lunatics and forgive you, just like Gallileo.
Bill’s existence is based on being upset at someone for “bigotry” towards the Catholic Church, Catholics, Mary and the baby jesus.
He’s not letting this go anytime soon. Any lull in the action is only a preface to another asplosion from Billy.
Donohue seems to be desperate for material to keep recycling the same old tempest in a teapot over and over.
I guess anticatholic prejudice just isn’t what it used to be.
Time for Hagee or one of the other fundie humanoid toads to dust off the old, The Catholic Church is the Church of Satan and the Pope is the Antichrist schtick. They really sincerely believe that but don’t too often emphasize it.
Maybe the Mormons could weigh in. They and the RCC are traditional rivals. Both have Popes, Vaticans, and are the One True Church. And both can’t be right.
It is so much easier to go after gays or Moslems these days and fundies are too lazy and deficient in attention spans to actually think up anything new or pick on anyone their own size.
Well, Donohue is an attention whore. He found a nail to bash on and he’ll bash forever and ever in his constant dementia.
Bill’s existence is based on being upset at someone for “bigotry” towards the Catholic Church, Catholics, Mary and the baby jesus.
He’s not letting this go anytime soon. Any lull in the action is only a preface to another asplosion from Billy.
yeah, that’s right. blame PZ for the youtube videos. why doesn’t he blame PZ for global warming too while he is at it. i suspect PZ had something to do with the recent hurricane and the collapse of the economy.
Shamelessly stealing from “Good Morning, Vietnam”:
I’ve never met a man in more dire need of a blowjob.
Bah. Double post. And I know better.
Starbuck @ 14
Trouble with my server. So control yourself and don’t go bonkers. We’ve all had this situation. I won’t call you a moron; this time.
I’ve heard that most Catholics think Donohue is a self serving kook and professional victim for money. It isn’t like he has a real job or is doing anything productive but he does get paid anyway.
Doesn’t this guy Donohue realise he’s single-handedly perpetuating the whole ridiculous saga himself? The more he moans, the more desecration videos will be posted, giving him more to moan at.
Round and round we go. It’s obvious to me that he’s deliberately fuelling the fire. HE’s outraged because he WANTS to be outraged, and wants to be SEEN to be outraged.
If he just shuts his big mouth the whole thing will die a natural death. But of course he doesn’t want that because then he won’t be able to moan about it.
Some people have nothing better to do in life than rage and rant at other people. What a worthless non-creative antisocial tosser.
Trouble with my server. So control yourself and don’t go bonkers. We’ve all had this situation. I won’t call you a moron; this time.
You’re all heart. Your mercy is overwhelming.. ;)
So, you expected rational thoughts from believers in a sky fairy?
What really makes me upset is that these people equate the holocaust with their blind devotion to slices of bread.
BWAAAAHAAAAA, video responses, check it out…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLP2fHGHX7c
Let’s see how long it stays up there
PZ, look at it this way. Controversy generates traffic. You should be thanking him. As a matter of fact, maybe you should be poking him in the ribs more often. It’s hysterical watching him and his bleating mob come unglued.
I guess the civil rights part of their banner just doesn’t apply to you. The cracker war continues, fed by a lay screwball in the Catholic Church. So, is he supposed to be speaking for the guy in the funny hat, or what?
I guess the civil rights part of their banner just doesn’t apply to you. The cracker war continues, fed by a lay screwball in the Catholic Church. So, is he supposed to be speaking for the guy in the funny hat, or what?
I suspect I’m not the only one having trouble commenting.
BTW, Rev: Your blog is killing ME! I’ll have to visit tomorrow from my work computer.:) I did notice “This Must Be the Place” before the freakout, which I’ve loved since I first heard it in Wall Street (all of the music from which is superb). There’s also a nice version by Shawn Colvin featured in another good movie, Wordplay.
Typical Christian persecution complex. It’s nothing new.
Surely you don’t expect a Catholic, especially this one, to be concerned about the validity of his statements, P.Z.
Starbuck @ 27
No, my mercy is underwhelming, but my intolerance can be overwhelming, especially for characters who make big deals out of inconsequentials. Appears that I just may wind up calling you a moron.
He didn’t forget anything, he’s just a liar.
Michelle : Well, Donohue is an attention whore. He found a nail to bash on and he’ll bash forever and ever in his constant dementia.
When you’re a eucharist, everything looks like a nail
You’re making fun of my god!!! And although I believe he is the mostest awesomest powerfulest thing ever and could smush you like a bug, I know he won’t, which really really really sux for me because I wish he would because I HATE you for making fun of the things I hold dearest but which I have no way of backing up factually!!
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Hehe. Thanks.
I had a few adult beverages and was editing photos so I was looking up a bunch of Talking Heads to listen to.
Just heard David Byrne is playin’ in Charleston in Dec. I’m fired up.
I propose the Bill Donahue Desecration Video Challenge.
Well done PZ, you are officially the bogeyman.
Years from now Catholic parents will be telling their kids to do their chores or PZ will get them. I expect horror movies and squid plushy sales to rise.
Louis
Well done PZ, you are officially the bogeyman.
Years from now Catholic parents will be telling their kids to do their chores or PZ will get them. I expect horror movies and squid plushy sales to rise.
Louis
ARSE! Apologies for double postage. I will now go and confess my sins to a biologist and say three Hail Darwins….
….what do you mean I’ve missed the point somewhere?
Louis
Look at it on the bright side, at least you got little old Catholic ladies to use the internet. It wont be long before they discover internet porn and forget all about you.
Wow! Donohue has slimmed down a lot!
I’m a bit curious about his definition of shock site. He says that seeing the cracking getting desecrated is “shocking”, as applied to that definition. Perhaps a delicate response by showing him what a shock site really is, would be in order. If cracker desecration is shocking to him, I wonder what Eel Girl, Tub Girl, Mr Hands, Goatse, etc, would do to him. But, I guess that’s what being an old fogey with no understanding of the social and technological advances of the last 50 years or so does to you.
What the hell is wrong with the blog today? Everytime I try to make a comment I get a time out.
Bill is nothing but a sucky titted blat-ass, he never comes here to thumb his nose at PZ. *snort*
Looks like you can now pay for a good surround sound system for your new 42″ plasma set.
Slim??? WTF. Is that why his shirt looks like an old blue sack? He certainly looks like the most miserable SOB I have ever had the pleasure of not meeting.
Well PZ, at least you know you won’t go bankrupt paying for your daughter’s tuition. :)
“War on the Eucharist” is totally a great book title.
Whilst I’m over-commenting and since it seems relevant:
As an equal opportunities offender I have devised my forthcoming blasphemy challenge/desecration YouTube video. I will be collecting together several major religious books, works of apologetics and icons and placing them in a steel drum. I was thinking the bible, the qu’ran, the torah, the talmud, the guru granth sahib, the bhagavad ghita, various buddhist texts, the book of mormon, the collected works of L Ron Hubbard, the ground remains of a Japanese ancestor, a collection of various books on homeopathy, ufos and bigfoot, a zodiacal chart (specially compiled for the occasion in at least three astrological tradition), an effigy of Gillian McKeith and a copy of the Daily Mail (UK readers know what I am talking about).
I shall then cover them with diethyl ether and charcoal briquettes and set fire to them. When the briquettes have burned to a nice glow, I shall add some hickory wood and a half kilo of finest Moroccan hashish. I shall then inhale the fumes with a couple of my very best friends before placing a griddle across the top and cooking a kilo of high quality smoked bacon and a series of thick beef steaks.
My friends and I shall then consume the bacon and steaks, tell a vegetarian to fuck off simply for the sheer hell of it, grin maniacally into the camera and recite the blasphemy challenge.
Hmmm I can’t help feeling it’s missing something though…
Louis
Patricia
What the hell is wrong with the blog today?
Perhaps the script kitty with his panties up a wedge over poll crashing made good on his threat.
It’s not hard to write a script that can hit a URL about 10 times a second utilizing multiple ports.
If that is the case, he is also making PZ’s blog one of the most popular on the internets by hit count, not to mention the Chinese Olympics size Plasma screen he’ll be able to buy for Xmas.
Cretin Donahue reminds me a lot of that religious cretin morphed into a lawyer, that insufferable Philip E johnson. This moron has been laying low for a while, but I have a feeling he will scum to the surface in cahoots with Donahue and lather their religious vermin to whatever rationalism has to bear.
Jason : I’m a bit curious about his definition of shock site.
2 girls 1 cracker
“Bully Billy has conveniently forgotten the history already”
He’s religious, PZ, he can’t be bothered with “facts”.
@57:
Ooh! This gives me a really good idea for a shock video!
I just can’t take the word “eucharist” seriously. Sounds like a card game enthusiast or something.
I can never read these threads without thinking of the book “Will I see Fido in Heaven: Scripturally revealing God’s eternal plan for his lesser creatures” and the review on Amazon by Henry Raddick which reads: “My 14 year old spaniel Barry’s eternal soul has become a pressing concern for me recently, given his age, and Buddemeyer-Porter’s sensitive guide has allayed some concerns that I have had. I’m reassured to read that the sin of Adam is not upon Barry even though he does not accept Christ as his saviour. Even so, a few wafer hosts can’t hurt his chances, and he just loves them.” As far as I know, the only reaction that got in England was a good and well-deserved belly laugh.
Honestly, you’ll probably be receiving the odd email about that whole situation for years.
That was my guess.
Cool. (As long as it’s in a smaller venue, I would say. I hate big crowds, but you probably differ.)
Louis @59: Hmmm I can’t help feeling it’s missing something though…
How about a bottle of Mogen David – a nice Jewish whine
“Wow! Donohue has slimmed down a lot!”
Does a low carb diet mean you have to cut out the christ?
Kobra @ 59
It writes itself, considering it’s a catholic shock, it should probably be 2 guys 1 cracker. One of them has to be about 13yrs old for authenticity.
Desecration for charity! That’s the way to go. £1 to charity for every new video posted. That’ll get Donahoe’s undies in a bunch. He can’t complain if it’s done in a good cause, can he?
Anyone up for it?
Still milking “crackergate” for all it’s worth, I see. I suppose you must, as you have no other claim to fame. No paper in fifteen years (so I’ve heard), and no book, ever.
So milk it, Myers, milk it.
Billby’s video response to this seems to have an undeserved ‘3’: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLP2fHGHX7c
@66:
Hmm, I wonder if my mom will let me borrow her video camera for that.
I can do both but prefer smaller venues. This is a small music hall and he’s played there before. Very coo.
Once it’s consecrated, it’s all protein.
I feel rather ashamed. For decades I’ve been telling people, as a former Catholic, that Catholics are pretty sensible and don’t go in for a lot of the nonsense other churches do. Turns out they’re as unhinged as all the rest.
Forgive the allusion, but that guy’s whinge is about as relevant as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
“So milk it, Myers, milk it.”
Interesting.
Accomplished professor and educator, father and husband, frequently travels for speaker events, posts multiple thoughtful threads per day, has rallied huge support for the materialist world-view, effectively ires the entire catholic community only because of their ineptitude over a cracker, ….and that’s milking it?
I think I noticed a little envy dripping from your sneer.
Tony @ 73
I beg to differ, this Donahue glorp is not representative of Catholics I’ve known.
I was just partying with my insane Mexican inlaws in LA last week. If you’re going to hang with Xians, you can’t beat the Catholics, they know how to have a good time.
Coo.
I think you need to throw in a copy of Atlas Shrugged or similar Randian title. Can you get a copy of the ‘Contract with America” (remember Newt Gingrich)? That should cover your bases.
@ Dav Laurel, dipshit extraordinaire:
Then maybe you should learn to read for yourself, shitbrain. You’re on the internet, fuckwit–why not take advantage of the opportunity to find out things for yourself? Or at the very least, try praying to whatever figment you kowtow to to provide you with the bare modicum of intelligence required to not look like the dumber sister of an ant infected with D. dendriticum. (The two words in italics indicate the scientific name of an organism. You can have your case worker, home care nurse, or whoever is responsible for changing the dressings on your massive head wound explain what that means if you like.)
However, in case you are, as I suspect is possible, in a coma and whoever is transcribing your blinks did so incorrectly, then I apologise and offer my condolences in your family should they eventually muster up the courage to pull the plug and put you out of all of our misery.
If you are not in a coma, then for everybody’s sake, please find your way into one, posthaste. Since you’re clearly incapable of thinking for yourself, I helpfully recommend a heavy brick to the forehead, repeating as necessary.
When discussing religion with Catholics, I like to bring up the Catholic’s Albigensian Crusade against the Cathars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade
In the 13th century, Catholic Christians murdered 200,000 to 1,000,000 Cathar Christians. Catholicism and Christianity in gereral are great evils afflicting humanity.
Now brownian, why should a dipshit like Dav Laurel actually do any research when running his fucking mouth (keyboard) is easier and the [mis]information is spread just the same?
Have you considered sending him a book on hobbies? It sounds like Mr. Donohue is lacking in activities, and perhaps he might find something in one to keep him occupied. Perhaps some crayons for his next missive?
There’s a bit of an effort to vote down sane comments, and vote up biblical quotes… I think that the Catholic League types are trying to skew the comments…
Seriously, don’t we do poll corruption better than them?
Hey, if they can send letters to You-Tube so can we. I sent the following:
Please do NOT cave to the Catholic league and their minions in the matter of videos they find offensive. One should not be forced to ‘respect’ religious beliefs that one does not hold. Bronze age mythology should be left to fend for itself. Would you remove videos that were offensive to the god Zeus? Would someone ‘desecrating’ the easter bunny be removed from your site? If not, then there is no reason to kow-tow to these modern inquisitional loonies
“Wow! Donohue has slimmed down a lot!”
Not sure that this can account for slimness, but it is fairly apparent that his brain has been on a hunger strike for years.
Good point, Rev BDC. He probably doesn’t have much time and energy to spare, what with being a smug, sanctimonious carcinoma and all.
My goodness, Brownian, do you get this worked up every time someone pees on your idol?
“try praying to whatever figment you kowtow to”
Assumptions, dear boy, assumptions. Try not to make them. You’ll look so much smarter.
Flonkbob @ 84: Hey, if they can send letters to You-Tube so can we.
Where did you send that, snail mail or internets ? Address?
Replace Michelle Bachman Blog Carnival.
Dav, if you want crackergate to die a natural death, talk to Bill Donohue and get him to quit his snitfit over the issue. If Bill would STFU and death/beating threats end, then PZ has no reason to mention anything on the issue. Take your concern where it belongs–to the catholics.
Look, nobody likes war. But we have to fight the Eucharists over there, or we’ll end up fighting them here. Because the Eucharists hate us for our freedom.
God damn it. There goes another.
@ Dav # 68
Not a bad suggestion. PZ should write a book. Wait! Even better… PZ should write a children’s book! Like Where the Wild Things Are… except about dogma. …Where the crazy things are.
Holbach,
In your earlier message you said:
I think that you’re unfairly smearing the mentally retarded.
Of all the mentally retarded people I’ve met, not one has been as intolerant, inflexible or as incapable of taking a joke as the vast majority of “deeply religious” people I’ve met.
Prometheus
Says Mr. ‘So-I’ve-Heard’. Anytime you want to follow the link to PZ’s CV and apologise for passing along rumours like a fucking schoolchild, feel free.
Until then, I’d suggest you shut your fucking trap about assumptions, you asshole.
Why not quote the Bible back to Bill Donohue? According to the Bible, Jesus said Christians are supposed to be happy when someone persecutes them:
Matt. 5:11-12 — “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”
There it is right at the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount.
I say we kill them all and let God sort it out.
Louis,
I couldn’t see any pasta in that list. (Or should it be something piratical?)
Hey. I’m an atheist and I’m deeply offended by all the religious quack videos on YouTube. Why doesn’t the CEO of YouTube worry about my sensitivities? If putting up videos of religious propaganda which offend atheists isn’t insensitive and hate speech, then nothing is.
Scooter @#88
I just used the same address that Bully Billy posted for his inquisitors to use… editor@youtube.com. Now that I think of it, I hope it’s a real address. Why did I think he would have the right one?
I feel positively religious now…accepting things on faith.
Well, PutZ, did you expect us to go away quietly, just because you singlehandedly insulted every believer of every religion on the planet with your hateful spewings? Nope! It doesn’t work that way! This is all the result of your decision to spread worldwide hatred for people who find peace in God, however they see him.
If you truly intend to head up the culture war against all things theistic, you’d better recruit a much larger force of WINGED MONKEYS! Meanwhile, blame only yourself for peoples’ view of you.
@Joseph #101: Oh joseph, don’t you know that winged monkeys are way cooler than your pussy angels?
Just tell these rabid religious retards that if they want to contact you let their god do it and you’ll be all ears and will patiently wait for a message. Morons.
Rey @ 91: But we have to fight the Eucharists over there, or we’ll end up fighting them here.
Damn, we just have to figure out how to squeeze oil out of a cracker now. Could be the next FSMdude vid.
BTW, it’s hysterical listening to Wild Bill say “FSM Dude”
That totally crackered me up.
Joseph Brenner (#101) hyperbolized,
How does desecrating a cracker insult a Hindu? A Buddhist?
Unless……what you’re trying to say that his mere statement that “nothing should be held sacred” is insult enough to anybody.
If it is, you’ve got a lot more adversity ahead of you in this wonderful world of ours.
Joseph Brenner,
Maybe the Catholics should step up and denounce their Pope for his role in the pedo-priest scandal. Maybe Donohue should denounce those Catholics that started the whole shebang with their death threats against Webster Cook. Maybe you theists should start practicing what you preach.
Nah, forget about the last one. Expecting that is a bigger stretch than believing god had a son who he had killed (except he’s an immortal god) to pay himself for a debt he declared all humans owned.
At any rate, you want a culture war–it’s on.
I call Poe @ 101
Poested by: Joseph Brenner | October 7, 2008 3:48 PM
Um, Joseph Brenner, I have one silly little question to ask. How did PZ’s nailing of a cracker insult every believer of every religion? Do they all have the same regard for your rituals that you do. If so, I hope that you stop eating beef, think of the Hindus. And kill no living creature, think of the followers of Jainism.
Joseph Brenner, you are acting like quite an ass, claiming that somehow that you speak for every theistic person in the world. Such huge words form such a small person.
“This is all the result of your decision to spread worldwide hatred”
Ummm, gosh. What I read was that someone in the catholic church made death threats to a person because they lost track of a cracker.
I mean, death threats are a form of hatred no? Especially over something so superficial as a cracker. Seems ludicrous.
Maybe I read a false report and PZ really is the one starting all the shenanigans.
Yeah, right.
Hey Joseph, by reading your post, you know – the information in it? – you’re an idiot. Go pray to your deity. Just make sure it’s the right one. I’ve heard of this other one that the muslims pray to. Maybe it’s the real one. These things can be confusing you know.
I don’t think he’s ever said a word against Zoroastrians, Buddhists and Taoists
Well, people like you certainly seem to see God as an asshole like themselves. So why complain when God gets called an asshole?
I think he’ll have enough to form another few squadrons, at this rate.
Because people are not to blame for their own views?
Posted by: tsg | October 7, 2008 3:56 PM
I call Poe @ 101
Nah. Not enough typos.
bernard said
“Wow! Donohue has slimmed down a lot!”
Not sure that this can account for slimness, but it is fairly apparent that his brain has been on a hunger strike for years.
He had an enema.
(thanks for Mr. Hitchens for that one)
Timothy @ 93: PZ should write a children’s book!
My Pet Cracker
Michelle @ 102: pussy angels
mmmmmmmmm, pussy angels
YUM
Mr. Brenner,
I think you would find that people might have more respect for your set of “people who find peace in God” if said peace didn’t involve assault, death threats, and a conspicuous lack of honesty. If your version of peace requires these things for its continued existence, I would humbly suggest that references to your peace either need quotation marks around peace, or references to 1984 immediately before and after.
Also, Prof. Myers doesn’t do the winged monkey thing – he hires winged octopi. Do you read? I think the “winged monkey” is much more representative of Mr. Donohue’s fan club, though “flying pit-bulls of fatwa fantasies” also works well.
Posted by: Joseph Brenner | October 7, 2008 3:48 PM
Fuck off you child molestation supporting asstard.
Flying squid. Apparently my reading comprehension is not so good.
Hap @ 155, I think the “winged monkey” is much more representative of Mr. Donohue’s fan club,
More like winged young nekkid boys.
Now, now, Smeg. Joseph Brenner finds ‘peace’ in God. For him to go stirring up the pot and criticising the Church would be against peace, and as ludicrous as, er, criticising PZ, since that’s not peaceful either.
Hmm.
Well, at the very least, it would be a selfless act for a Catholic to criticise the Church rather than take easy potshots at us mean ol’ nasty unbelievers, and quite frankly, few of them have the fucking nads.
“Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely,”
Ahh… the technical hitch there is that what men say about ‘donkey poo’…is not really false…so me thinks he ain’t quite as blessed as he would like to pretend he is…
…”people who find peace in God” if said peace didn’t involve assault, death threats, and a conspicuous lack of honesty.
It’s not just the death threats, assault, & lies. In my opinion, what is worse is that they want to change the law to reflect their very stupid Bronze Age myths, & deprive us of our hard-fought-for human rights.
Hey Joseph,
Your advice;
“Meanwhile, blame only yourself for peoples’ view of you”
Is fantastic.
I suggest that you take it yourself.
Even if one accepts that Dr. Myer’s actions are “hateful” (which I personally do not) you lot never stop to consider why Catholicism (and other creeds) inspire these reactions.
Here’s a hint; pedophilia, hypocrisy, and insular shortsightedness all play their parts.
You want people to think well of Catholics? Get Catholics to ACT WELL. As opposed to semi-literate death threats and frothing populist hysteria.
The fact that you seem to consider wafers more important than lives is not endearing, and I refuse to accept some kind of blame or villiany for feeling that way.
And finally, please note that while you have pissed me off immensely I have no desire to hurt you and hope nothing horrible happens to you. Best of luck for the future, now please fuck off.
Presumably every time Mr Donohue eats the cracker he turns some of it into excrement. A nasty end for the body of Christ. Is there a theology of digestion to account for this – eshitology?
“they want to change the law to reflect their very stupid Bronze Age myths, & deprive us of our hard-fought-for human rights.”
Well yes of course that is called being a Christian….Atheists are not counted as human apparently…all manner of things can come to pass when reality is ignored…
As Alice once opined..
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn’t. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn’t be. And what it wouldn’t be, it would. You see?”
@Peter MC: Oh, he um…becomes gas.
You mean ol’ Bill hasn’t outraged himself into a heart attack yet?
#121: Especially when one considers how the “you have to believe like me” things usually go – the set of ones whose rights they are destroying will eventually expand to include themselves. It hasn’t been all that long in the US that people could countenance having a Catholic person in a position of power, and I would have thought that perhaps some of those protesting so loudly would have remembered that and realized the inherent problem with trying to force your belief on others.
The alternative possibility that they know how such things go, but continue to hope that the last ones standing will be them is hard to dismiss out of hand, but overly optimistic for them, I think. People don’t seem to realize that what they unleash is likely to destroy them as well until too late, though they could have anticipated it with a little thought and a little less evil and wishful thinking. That pesky “those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it” thing rears its ugly head again.
Don’t worry PZ, I’ve just sent this email to Billy, it shoulds spare you some hate mail:
Hey Pal, what’s up? If you’re going to cry over the eucharist desecration videos and start a catholic fatwa agaisn’t it, please have the common decency to add my e-mail adress in your letter so that people may talk with the real guy (PZ is not the only one here, think about his poor letter box). Here it is:
doom-lemons@hotmail.com
Oh, they’re trying to find ways to contact/harass FSMDude. Check this out.
Best thing about the comments so far:
???? Is this a variation on the skeptical phrase ‘Monkeys might fly out of my butt?’ I’m definitely going to have to steal this one.
Beyond that, the trolls seem rather third-tier. Is it worth the time to try to convince “Joseph Brenner” of the multiple errors present in statements like “This is all the result of your decision to spread worldwide hatred for people who find peace in God, however they see him. “, which would, in part, require me to explain that it is not the people themselves, but the silly beliefs that they hold, to which we object? Probably not.
On the subject of moving on, though, what do you suppose a comparison of the number of different, non-crackergate topics PZ and Donohue have each written about in the past month alone would reveal? Will Donohue win, hands-down, for his eloquent takes on a broad variety of topics that provide fodder for weeks’ worth of intelligent, nuanced discussion? Sure–and angels might fly out of my pussy, too.
Religion wears a bloody shirt.
http://www.skeptically.org/enlightenment/id7.html
James A. Haught: Holy Horrors (1990)
[This article was originally published in Penthouse, August 1990.]
A pig caused hundreds of Indians to kill one another in 1980. The animal walked through a Muslim holy ground at Moradabad, near New Delhi. Muslims, who think pigs are an embodiment of Satan, blamed Hindus for the defilement. They went on a murder rampage, stabbing and clubbing Hindus, who retaliated in kind. The pig riot spread to a dozen cities and left more than 200 dead.
This swinish episode tells a universal tale. It typifies religious behavior that has been recurring for centuries.
Ronald Reagan often called religion the world’s mightiest force for good, “the bedrock of moral order.” George Bush said it gives people “the character they need to get through life.” This view is held by millions. But the truism isn’t true. The record of human experience shows that where religion is strong, it causes cruelty. Intense beliefs produce intense hostility. Only when faith loses its force can a society hope to become humane.
The history of religion is a horror story. If anyone doubts it, just review this chronicle of religion’s gore during the last 1,000 years or so:
— The First Crusade was launched in 1095 with the battle cry “Deus Vult” (God wills it), a mandate to destroy infidels in the Holy Land. Gathering crusaders in Germany first fell upon “the infidel among us,” Jews in the Rhine valley, thousands of whom were dragged from their homes or hiding places and hacked to death or burned alive. Then the religious legions plundered their way 2,000 miles to Jerusalem, where they killed virtually every inhabitant, “purifying” the symbolic city. Cleric Raymond of Aguilers wrote: “In the temple of Solomon, one rode in blood up to the knees and even to the horses’ bridles, by the just and marvelous judgment of God.”
— Human sacrifice blossomed in the Mayan theocracy of Central America between the 11th and 16th centuries. To appease a feathered-serpent god, maidens were drowned in sacred wells and other victims either had their hearts cut out, were shot with arrows, or were beheaded. Elsewhere, sacrifice was sporadic. In Peru, pre-Inca tribes killed children in temples called “houses of the moon.” In Tibet, Bon shamans performed ritual killings. In Borneo builders of pile houses drove the first pile through the body of a maiden to pacify the earth goddess. In India, Dravidian people offered lives to village goddesses, and followers of Kali sacrificed a male child every Friday evening.
— In the Third Crusade, after Richard the Lion-Hearted captured Acre in 1191, he ordered 3,000 captives — many of them women and children — taken outside the city and slaughtered. Some were disemboweled in a search for swallowed gems. Bishops intoned blessings. Infidel lives were of no consequence. As Saint Bernard of Clairvaux declared in launching the Second Crusade: “The Christian glories in the death of a pagan, because thereby Christ himself is glorified.”
— The Assassins were a sect of Ismaili Shi’ite Muslims whose faith required the stealthy murder of religious opponents. From the 11th to 13th centuries, they killed numerous leaders in modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria. They finally were wiped out by conquering Mongols — but their vile name survives.
— Throughout Europe, beginning in the 1100s, tales spread that Jews were abducting Christian children, sacrificing them, and using their blood in rituals. Hundreds of massacres stemmed from this “blood libel.” Some of the supposed sacrifice victims — Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln, the holy child of LaGuardia, Simon of Trent — were beatified or commemorated with shrines that became sites of pilgrimages and miracles.
— In 1209, Pope Innocent III launched an armed crusade against Albigenses Christians in southern France. When the besieged city of Beziers fell, soldiers reportedly asked their papal adviser how to distinguish the faithful from the infidel among the captives. He commanded: “Kill them all. God will know his own.” Nearly 20,000 were slaughtered — many first blinded, mutilated, dragged behind horses, or used for target practice.
— The Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 proclaimed the doctrine of transubstantiation: that the host wafer miraculously turns into the body of Jesus during the mass. Soon rumors spread that Jews were stealing the sacred wafers and stabbing or driving nails through them to crucify Jesus again. Reports said that the pierced host bled, cried out, or emitted spirits. On this charge, Jews were burned at the stake in 1243 in Belitz, Germany — the first of many killings that continued into the 1800s. To avenge the tortured host, the German knight Rindfliesch led a brigade in 1298 that exterminated 146 defenseless Jewish communities in six months.
— In the 1200s the Incas built their empire in Peru, a society dominated by priests reading daily magical signs and offering sacrifices to appease many gods. At major ceremonies up to 200 children were burned as offerings. Special “chosen women” — comely virgins without blemish — were strangled.
— Also during the 1200s, the hunt for Albigensian heretics led to establishment of the Inquisition, which spread over Europe. Pope Innocent IV authorized torture. Under interrogation by Dominican priests, screaming victims were stretched, burned, pierced and broken on fiendish pain machines to make them confess to disbelief and to identify fellow transgressors. Inquisitor Robert le Bourge sent 183 people to the stake in a single week.
— In Spain, where many Jews and Moors had converted to escape persecution, inquisitors sought those harboring their old faith. At least 2,000 Spanish backsliders were burned. Executions in other countries included the burning of scientists such as mathematician-philosopher Giordano Bruno, who espoused Copernicus’s theory that the planets orbit the sun.
— When the Black Death swept Europe in 1348-1349, rumors alleged that it was caused by Jews poisoning wells. Hysterical mobs slaughtered thousands of Jews in several countries. In Speyer, Germany, the burned bodies were piled into giant wine casks and sent floating down the Rhine. In northern Germany Jews were walled up alive in their homes to suffocate or starve. The Flagellants, an army of penitents who whipped themselves bloody, stormed the Jewish quarter of Frankfurt in a gruesome massacre. The prince of Thuringia announced that he had burned his Jews for the honor of God.
— The Aztecs began their elaborate theocracy in the 1300s and brought human sacrifice to a golden era. About 20,000 people were killed yearly to appease gods — especially the sun god, who needed daily “nourishment” of blood. Hearts of sacrifice victims were cut out, and some bodies were eaten ceremoniously. Other victims were drowned, beheaded, burned or dropped from heights. In a rite to the rain god, shrieking children were killed at several sites so that their tears might induce rain. In a rite to the maize goddess, a virgin danced for 24 hours, then was killed and skinned; her skin was worn by a priest in further dancing. One account says that at King Ahuitzotl’s coronation, 80,000 prisoners were butchered to please the gods.
— In the 1400s, the Inquisition shifted its focus to witchcraft. Priests tortured untold thousands of women into confessing that they were witches who flew through the sky and engaged in sex with the devil — then they were burned or hanged for their confessions. Witch hysteria raged for three centuries in a dozen nations. Estimates of the number executed vary from 100,000 to 2 million. Whole villages were exterminated. In the first half of the 17th century, about 5,000 “witches” were put to death in the French province of Alsace, and 900 were burned in the Bavarian city of Bamberg. The witch craze was religious madness at its worst.
— The “Protestant Inquisition” is a term applied to the severities of John Calvin in Geneva and Queen Elizabeth I in England during the 1500s. Calvin’s followers burned 58 “heretics,” including theologian Michael Servetus, who doubted the Trinity. Elizabeth I outlawed Catholicism and executed about 200 Catholics.
— Protestant Huguenots grew into an aggressive minority in France in the 15OOs — until repeated Catholic reprisals smashed them. On Saint Bartholomew’s Day in 1572, Catherine de Medicis secretly authorized Catholic dukes to send their soldiers into Huguenot neighborhoods and slaughter families. This massacre touched off a six-week bloodbath in which Catholics murdered about 10,000 Huguenots. Other persecutions continued for two centuries, until the French Revolution. One group of Huguenots escaped to Florida; in 1565 a Spanish brigade discovered their colony, denounced their heresy, and killed them all.
— Members of lndia’s Thuggee sect strangled people as sacrifices to appease the bloodthirsty goddess Kali, a practice beginning in the 1500s. The number of victims has been estimated to be as high as 2 million. Thugs were claiming about 20,000 lives a year in the 1800s until British rulers stamped them out. At a trial in 1840, one Thug was accused of killing 931 people. Today, some Hindu priests still sacrifice goats to Kali.
— The Anabaptists, communal “rebaptizers,” were slaughtered by both Catholic and Protestant authorities. In Munster, Germany, Anabaptists took control of the city, drove out the clergymen, and proclaimed a New Zion. The bishop of Munster began an armed siege. While the townspeople starved, the Anabaptist leader proclaimed himself king and executed dissenters. When Munster finally fell, the chief Anabaptists were tortured to death with red-hot pincers and their bodies hung in iron cages from a church steeple.
— Oliver Cromwell was deemed a moderate because he massacred only Catholics and Anglicans, not other Protestants. This Puritan general commanded Bible-carrying soldiers, whom he roused to religious fervor. After decimating an Anglican army, Cromwell said, “God made them as stubble to our swords.” He demanded the beheading of the defeated King Charles I, and made himself the holy dictator of England during the 1650s. When his army crushed the hated Irish Catholics, he ordered the execution of the surrendered defenders of Drogheda and their priests, calling it “a righteous judgment of God upon these barbarous wretches.”
— Ukrainian Bogdan Chmielnicki was a Cossack Cromwell. He wore the banner of Eastern Orthodoxy in a holy war against Jews and Polish Catholics. More than 100,000 were killed in this 17th-century bloodbath, and the Ukraine was split away from Poland to become part of the Orthodox Russian empire.
— The Thirty Years’ War produced the largest religious death toll of all time. It began in 1618 when Protestant leaders threw two Catholic emissaries out of a Prague window into a dung heap. War flared between Catholic and Protestant princedoms, drawing in supportive religious armies from Germany, Spain, England, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, France and Italy. Sweden’s Protestant soldiers sang Martin Luther’s “Ein ‘Feste Burg” in battle. Three decades of combat turned central Europe into a wasteland of misery. One estimate states that Germany’s population dropped from 18 million to 4 million. In the end nothing was settled, and too few people remained to rebuild cities, plant fields, or conduct education.
— When Puritans settled in Massachusetts in the 1600s, they created a religious police state where doctrinal deviation could lead to flogging, pillorying, hanging, cutting off ears, or boring through the tongue with a hot iron. Preaching Quaker beliefs was a capital offense. Four stubborn Quakers defied this law and were hanged. In the 1690s fear of witches seized the colony. Twenty alleged witches were killed and 150 others imprisoned.
— In 1723 the bishop of Gdansk, Poland, demanded that all Jews be expelled from the city. The town council declined, but the bishop’s exhortations roused a mob that invaded the ghetto and beat the residents to death.
— Islamic jihads (holy wars), mandated by the Koran, killed millions over 12 centuries. In early years, Muslim armies spread the faith rapidly: east to India and west to Morocco. Then splintering sects branded other Muslims as infidels and declared jihads against them. The Kharijis battled Sunni rulers. The Azariqis decreed death to all “sinners” and their families. In 1804 a Sudanese holy man, Usman dan Fodio, waged a bloody jihad that broke the religious sway of the Sultan of Gobir. In the 1850s another Sudanese mystic, ‘Umar al-Hajj, led a barbaric jihad to convert pagan African tribes — with massacres, beheadings and a mass execution of 300 hostages. In the 1880s a third Sudanese holy man, Muhammad Ahmed, commanded a jihad that destroyed a 10,000-man Egyptian army and wiped out defenders of Khartoum led by British general Charles “Chinese” Gordon.
— In 1801 Orthodox priests in Bucharest, Romania, revived the story that Jews sacrificed Christians and drank their blood. Enraged parishioners stormed the ghetto and cut the throats of 128 Jews.
— When the Baha’i faith began in Persia in 1844, the Islamic regime sought to exterminate it. The Baha’i founder was imprisoned and executed in 1850. Two years later, the religious government massacred 20,000 Baha’is. Streets of Tehran were soaked with blood. The new Baha’i leader, Baha’ullah, was tortured and exiled in foreign Muslim prisons for the rest of his life.
— Human sacrifices were still occurring in Buddhist Burma in the 1850s. When the capital was moved to Mandalay, 56 “spotless” men were buried beneath the new city walls to sanctify and protect the city. When two of the burial spots were later found empty, royal astrologers decreed that 500 men, women, boys, and girls must be killed and buried at once, or the capital must be abandoned. About 100 were actually buried before British governors stopped the ceremonies.
— In 1857 both Muslim and Hindu taboos triggered the Sepoy Mutiny in India. British rulers had given their native soldiers new paper cartridges that had to be bitten open. The cartridges were greased with animal tallow. This enraged Muslims, to whom pigs are unclean, and Hindus, to whom cows are sacred. Troops of both faiths went into a crazed mutiny, killing Europeans wantonly. At Kanpur, hundreds of European women and children were massacred after being promised safe passage.
— Late in the 19th century, with rebellion stirring in Russia, the czars attempted to divert public attention by helping anti-Semitic groups rouse Orthodox Christian hatred for Jews. Three waves of pogroms ensued — in the 1880s, from 1903 to 1906, and during the Russian Revolution. Each wave was increasingly murderous. During the final period, 530 communities were attacked and 60,000 Jews were killed.
— In the early 1900s, Muslim Turks waged genocide against Christian Armenians, and Christian Greeks and Balkans warred against the Islamic Ottoman Empire.
— When India finally won independence from Britain in 1947, the “great soul” of Mahatma Gandhi wasn’t able to prevent Hindus and Muslims from turning on one another in a killing frenzy that took perhaps 1 million lives. Even Gandhi was killed by a Hindu who thought him too pro-Muslim.
— In the 1950s and 1960s, combat between Christians, animists and Muslims in Sudan killed more than 500,000.
— In Jonestown, Guyana, in 1978, followers of the Rev. Jim Jones killed a visiting congressman and three newsmen, then administered cyanide to themselves and their children in a 900-person suicide that shocked the world.
— Islamic religious law decrees that thieves shall have their hands or feet chopped off, and unmarried lovers shall be killed. In the Sudan in 1983 and 1984, 66 thieves were axed in public. A moderate Muslim leader, Mahmoud Mohammed Taha, was hanged for heresy in 1985 because he opposed these amputations. In Saudi Arabia a teen-age princess and her lover were executed in public in 1977. In Pakistan in 1987, a 25-year-old carpenter’s daughter was sentenced to be stoned to death for engaging in unmarried sex. In the United Arab Emirates in 1984, a cook and a maid were sentenced to stoning for adultery — but, as a show of mercy, the execution was postponed until after the maid’s baby was born.
— In 1983 in Darkley, Northern Ireland, Catholic terrorists with automatic weapons burst into a Protestant church on a Sunday morning and opened fire, killing three worshipers and wounding seven. It was just one of hundreds of Catholic-Protestant ambushes that have taken 2,600 lives in Ulster since age-old religious hostility turned violent again in 1969.
— Hindu-Muslim bloodshed erupts randomly throughout India. More than 3,000 were killed in Assam province in 1983. In May 1984 Muslims hung dirty sandals on a Hindu leader’s portrait as a religious insult. This act triggered a week of arson riots that left 216 dead, 756 wounded, 13,000 homeless, and 4,100 in jail.
— Religious tribalism — segregation of sects into hostile camps — has ravaged Lebanon continuously since 1975. News reports of the civil war tell of “Maronite Christian snipers,” “Sunni Muslim suicide bombers,” “Druze machine gunners,” “Shi’ite Muslim mortar fire,” and “Alawite Muslim shootings.” Today 130,000 people are dead and a once-lovely nation is laid waste.
— In Nigeria in 1982, religious fanatic followers of Mallam Marwa killed and mutilated several hundred people as heretics and infidels. They drank the blood of some of the victims. When the militia arrived to quell the violence, the cultists sprinkled themselves with blessed powder that they thought would make them impervious to police bullets. It didn’t.
— Today’s Shi’ite theocracy in Iran — “the government of God on earth” — decreed that Baha’i believers who won’t convert shall be killed. About 200 stubborn Baha’is were executed in the early 1980s, including women and teenagers. Up to 40,000 Baha’is fled the country. Sex taboos in Iran are so severe that: (1) any woman who shows a lock of hair is jailed; (2) Western magazines being shipped into the country first go to censors who laboriously black out all women’s photos except for faces; (3) women aren’t allowed to ski with men, but have a separate slope where they may ski in shrouds.
— The lovely island nation of Sri Lanka has been turned hellish by ambushes and massacres between Buddhist Sinhalese and Hindu Tamils.
— In 1983 a revered Muslim leader, Mufti Sheikh Sa’ad e-Din el’Alami of Jerusalem, issued a fatwa (an order of divine deliverance) promising an eternal place in paradise to any Muslim assassin who would kill President Hafiz al-Assad of Syria.
— Sikhs want to create a separate theocracy, Khalistan (Land of the Pure), in the Punjab region of India. Many heed the late extremist preacher Jarnail Bhindranwale, who taught his followers that they have a “religious duty to send opponents to hell.” Throughout the 1980s they sporadically murdered Hindus to accomplish this goal. In 1984, after Sikh guards riddled prime minister Indira Gandhi with 50 bullets, Hindus went on a rampage that killed 5,000 Sikhs in three days. Mobs dragged Sikhs from homes, stores, buses and trains, chopping and pounding them to death. Some were burned alive; boys were castrated.
— In 1984 Shi’ite fanatics who killed and tortured Americans on a hijacked Kuwaiti airliner at Tehran Airport said they did it “for the pleasure of God.”
Obviously, people who think religion is a force for good are looking only at Dr. Jekyll and ignoring Mr. Hyde. They don’t see the superstitious savagery pervading both history and current events.
During the past three centuries, religion gradually lost its power over life in Europe and America, and church horrors ended in the West. But the poison lingered. The Nazi Holocaust was rooted in centuries of religious hate. Historian Dagobert Runes said the long era of church persecution killed three and a half million Jews — and Hitler’s Final Solution was a secular continuation. Meanwhile, faith remains potent in the Third World, where it still produces familiar results.
It’s fashionable among thinking people to say that religion isn’t the real cause of today’s strife in Lebanon, Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland, India and Iran — that sects merely provide labels for combatants. Not so. Religion keeps the groups in hostile camps. Without it, divisions would blur with passing generations; children would adapt to new times, mingle, intermarry, forget ancient wounds. But religion keeps them alien to one another.
Anything that divides people breeds inhumanity. Religion serves that ugly purpose.
“Holy Horrors” is copyright © 1990 by James A. Haught. All rights reserved.
The electronic version is copyright © 1997 by Internet Infidels with the written permission of James A. Haught. All rights reserved. Enter content here
“Pussy Angels” would be a great name for a post-punk girl band.
Just sayin’.
Man, it is getting so hard to tell…
#130: Ouch?
Jason @ #48
I’m a bit curious about his definition of shock site…Eel Girl, Tub Girl, Mr Hands, Goatse, etc,…
I’m thinking Mr. Bill Donohue is more of a “Lemon Party” kind of guy, actually… ;-)
Oh god I’ve been defending a french-canadian. I thought he was Swedish!
You are absolutely right. It was indeed instigated by the student who attempted to steal the Eucharist. Why this is of particular concern to of I don’t know..
However, your assault was far more blatant and was the first act designed with the expressed intent of committing sacrilege and maximum offence.
Religion makes people crazy.
You are absolutely right. It was indeed instigated by the student who attempted to steal the Eucharist. Why this is of particular concern to of I don’t know..
However, your assault was far more blatant and was the first act designed with the expressed intent of committing sacrilege and maximum offence.
The post at # 103 is not my mine, and here again we have a commenter with too much time on his hands and not enough in his time-warped skull. Moron.
Why why why did i google.
Hockey Bob, I don’t like you very much.
[Mumble grumble]
Damn winged monkey suit. stupid buttons. zipper is all jammed now, great! I don’t need this now. Crap, I’m going to be late. Joseph is getting away…
Pete.
boo fucking hoo.
Q: What do the Dominicans and the Jesuits have in common?
A: Both orders were founded by Spaniards – St Dominic and St Ignatius respectively. Also, both were founded to combat specific heresies – Albigensianism and Protestantism respectively.
Q: What’s the difference between the Dominicans and the Jesuits?
A: Met any Albigensians lately?
No, no. The feathers are a bit tickley, but that’s really the worst of it–unless they’re packing harps :)
Translation (into my language): Bravo, PZ! That takes all kinds of ballsiness.
*sigh*.
When will Big Pharma get off their asses and market a pill for middle-aged men who can only get hard by generating fake outrage, telling lies, and creating faux controversies?
The notion of consumption of human flesh and blood as a Christian religious sacrament is extremely offensive to Jews. In fact the Eucharist is anti-Jewish and is opposed by the Leviticus Holiness codes of Judaism. Christianity posits that it is descended from Judaism, and that its god-man was the ultimate human sacrifice. Judaism, however, posits that human sacrifice, cannibalism, and vampirism are offenses to its alleged god.
A contradiction entailed between the alleged revelations of Christianity and Judaism is the formers glorification and dependence upon symbolic consumption of blood offered in sacrifice. 1 Cor. 11:23-25 relates ” 23: For I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread, 24: and having given thanks broke [it], and said, This is my body, which [is] for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25: In like manner also the cup, after having supped, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye shall drink [it], in remembrance of me. ”
Judaism’s alleged revelation in Lev 7:22-27 states “22: And Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, …. 26: And no blood shall ye eat in any of your dwellings, whether it be of fowl or of cattle. 27: Whatever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, that soul shall be cut off from his peoples.”
Jesus is identified as Jehovah in the following passages. John 1:1, John 1:14, John 8:58, John 10:30-31, John 10:38-39, John 14:9, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Col 1:16, Col 2:9, 1 Tim 3:16, Titus 2;13, Phil 2:6, Heb 1:8, Rev 1;17, and Rev 22:13.
The Bible assures the reader that Jehovah cannot lie as expounded in the following passages. Num 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29, 2 Sam 7:28, Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18.
The Bible also relates that the Law of Moses is a perpetual Covenant that cannot be rescinded ever. Gen 17:19, Ex 12:14, 17, 24, Lev 23:14,21,31, Deut 4:8-9, 7:9, 11:26-28, 1 Chron 16:15, Psalm 119:151-2, 160, Mal 4:4, Matt 5:18-19, Luke 16:17.
If Jehovah exists, then either Judaism is a true revelation or it isn’t. If Moses got a true and correct revelation, then that revelation is incompatible with and contrary to Christianity, and Jesus and Paul were wrong, self-deluded, and Jesus cannot be equal to Jehovah. On the other hand if Moses was a deceiver or a myth, then Judaism is a fictional religious fairy tale, and Jesus and Paul were incorrect, self-deluded, and Jesus cannot be Jehovah because Christianity presupposes Judaism to be a true revelation. Either way Christianity is false, and Jesus is not Jehovah.
Libertarian Bob: Jesus, tldr much? I scrolled down for about half a fucking minute and you’d only got to the bloody 1800s. And anyway, the phrase “preaching to the choir” is so apt I practically wet myself just thinking it.
Incidentally, I’m dying for an FAQ that handily informs people what “fatwa” means. It’s a legal decision, not specifically a condemnation of anyone or anything. Next job would be explaining “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”, which isn’t something that can be committed by non-Christians in the first place..
Seems like a good time to recommend an alternative religion!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qbFRh_FQkqA
If you like Thor, Weldon has one on Gaia, too.
They have, it comes in cracker form.
They do, but it’s for putting in rat traps.
Gee Joe, you sound like any Jihadist that ever lived. You aren’t going to hijack a plane and blow up a skyscraper or grain silo in Minnesota now, are you? Maybe find some Lutherans and refight the Reformation Wars? We have two crusades running in the middle east right now, maybe you could just blow away some Moslems instead.
And FWIW, you also sound very stupid. PZ Myers didn’t single handedly insult every religion in the world.
1. The main spewers of hate and insults against the religious are the religionists themselves. The Moslems hate the Xians, both hate the Jews, the Xians hate each other, the Hindus hate the Moslems and so on ad infinitum. Protestants and Catholics fought a 400 year war which killed tens of millions and died out in NI a whole 8 years ago.
Believers kill each every day somewhere in the world on a massive scale.
2. Plenty of people including non-atheists are fed up with the current Death Cultist morons who destroyed our country. Let’s make a deal. You don’t trash my homeland and no one will give a rat’s ass how many crackers you idolize.
3. PZ doesn’t hate religions or religious. Like many he thinks they are wrong and destructive and cuckoo and should obey the laws like everyone else.
Pete Rooke, you are wrong and you are boring and you are frothing at the mouth. If someone sent you death threats for using a carrot as a snowmans nose, because mummy said you weren’t allowed to play with your food, you would think they were off their rocker. We would be [more?] amused if xtians weren’t so violent.
Greetings SeanH
Since there is no such entity as the Holy Spirit, it cannot be insulted. Further, because it is impossible for gods or supernatural beings to exist, there cannot be blasphemy against that such beings.
Jason @ #48
I’m a bit curious about his definition of shock site…Eel Girl, Tub Girl, Mr Hands, Goatse, etc,…
I’m thinking Mr. Bill Donohue is more of a “Lemon Party” kind of guy, actually… ;-)
(2nd try – 1st one seems to have failed.)
Wah, wah, wah, it’s just a cracker…
Peter, have you given up eating beef as not to offend the Hindus yet?
Hockey Bob:
Not at all, you’re right there at #134
And I am still blissfully ignorant thanks to RBDC @ #140.
#144) Well, that’s good. Childbirth is scary enough.
#153) Mr. Rooke is reality-challenged – unless a fact fits what he already thinks, he isn’t going to process it. Kind of like PHB, except that I don’t believe that Mr. R thinks when he writes or talks, either. Be glad he doesn’t indulge you in discussions of his fantasies though – bleach is not approved for intracranial use.
The catholic league would kill for PZ’s site traffic. It’s funny how every time they blather about it they just increase his hits.
Cha-ching!!!
Over 40 videos!?! I’ve got some catching up to do….
I quite agree that there is no such being. I disagree that it cannot be insulted or blasphemed against, and that it is impossible for them to exist, but now we are getting into serious philosophical nitpicking and away from my point, which was that the “blasphemy challenge” is pointless, since the “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” it purports to commit is something very different and quite specific to Christian theology. It’s not just “insulting the Ghost”, it’s not as if it’s particularly thin-skinned.
Elaborating, from blasphemychallenge.com:
That’s simply not true. It’s a misrepresentation of Christian thought. As atheists, we don’t help ourselves out any when we do stuff like this. There’s lots of things we might legitimately criticise Christianity for, my preferred being its explanatory irrelevance and moral failings. This isn’t one of them.
As I was watching Bill D. crying, and whining to YouTube against free speech. This video is the first one listed in the related video column to the right.
It’s called Kathy Griffin vs Bill Donahue.
At 6:59 she starts to rip Bill Donahue a new one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNOSh5HxA2s&feature=related
I wonder if a good Irish Catholic like Bill ever complained about the Magdalen Laundries.
As I was watching Bill D. crying, and whining to YouTube against free speech. This video is the first one listed in the related video column to the right.
It’s called Kathy Griffin vs Bill Donahue.
At 6:59 she starts to rip Bill Donahue a new one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNOSh5HxA2s&feature=related
Pete Rooke – if the “maximum offence” can be caused by a man discarding an object in his possession in the privacy of his own home and using his freedom of speech to talk about it, then it is not only OK to cause that “maximum offence,” it’s the duty of all rational people committed to freedom to cause that offense.
When delusional lunatics construct an almost impossibly idiotic proscription and insist that every must follow it, they must be smacked down and smacked down hard.
Fuck your cracker, Pete. You have three options. One, get some help for your mental illness. Two, choose to cherish and embrace your insanity but learn to live with the fact that some people aren’t insane and are within their rights to point to stupidity and call it stupidity, or three – continue to be upset when rational people point out irrational beliefs, and spend the rest of your life delusional and bitter.
You’re choosing your own path and if you choose #3 it’s not our fault and not our problem.
OYG!! You defiled a magic biscuit!!!! That makes you worse than Hitler.
I’m pretty sure that you are entirely incorrect, and that blasphemychallenge is right.
Catholic Encyclopedia on blasphemy:
http://newadvent.org/cathen/02595a.htm
(note that the Encyclopdia dates from 1907, so it may be outdated in terms of contemporary information — but I am fairly sure that the doctrines, definitions, and dogma are still mostly the same)
Petey is back, bringing his own form of incivility by posting where shouldn’t, then complaining when we attack him.
Petey, why don’t you let your imaginary god take care of PZ, and you just worry about taking your meds on time, and leave us alone.
Petey, your biggest delusion is your belief in god. You appear to want to get rational and stop believing in god by your continued posting here. Otherwise, you would leave us alone.
You’re on the wrong track just looking for “blasphemy” – try searching for resources on “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”, the particular sin referred to in Mark 3:29. There’s a lot of discussion as to what it means, since it’s the only sin in the Bible apparently designated as unpardonable (this despite Jesus’ primary quality of being absolutely forgiving). There are many examples in the Bible of people being forgiven after blaspheming against God, including Paul. Some think it refers to specifically denying Christ’s divinity while he was on Earth, and thus not a sin that could be repeated today. Others (I think this is the best explanation) think it’s the continued state of not being a Christian. It’s not “unpardonable” in the sense that you can’t be forgiven EVER, it’s unpardonable in the sense that you can’t be forgiven until you’re a Christian. Regardless, it’s not generally considered (at least not by any serious theologians) that saying “I deny the Holy Spirit” and posting it on YouTube will permanently ban one to Hell.
Oddly enough, the Catholic Encyclopedia does not appear to distinguish between “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” and “blasphemy against God”.
So? Obviously, once again, the bible contradicts itself. Whoop-de-doodle-do.
Which means they are correct: as adamant non-Christians, they are indeed considered damned. The blasphemy is then just the icing on the cake, as it were. Or the pepper on the steak. Whatever.
Ah!
Courtiers, in other wordsSerious theologians. Well, that’s all right, then.Yes it does. For its perspective, see the entry on the Holy Ghost and scroll down to “Sins against the Holy Ghost” at the bottom. They’re in the “being unrepentant” camp.
The point at which they are incorrect, and which seems to be the crux of their message, is the claim that “he won’t forgive you for denying the existence of the Holy Spirit. Ever. This is a one-way road you’re taking here.” Again, basically universal Christian doctrine has it that sincere repentance and conversion forgives any sin, regardless of its severity or form.
If one were to take (as I think PZ has taken) the line that it doesn’t matter what theologians say, it’s all bunk since God doesn’t exist in the first place and there’s no point arguing about the specifics, then, fine, that’s very reasonable. But if one is going to attack Christianity on specific points, one ought to be clear on what those specific points are.
That’s one thing I’ve never understood about Christianity. If God IS Jesus and the Holy Spirit, isn’t blaspheming God the same as blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
pfft, the whole thing is a bunch of crap
I will give £1 to charity for every desecration video posted on Youtube between now and the end of the month, providing at least one other person will do the same.
Preferably I’d like every poster here to do it, then we can sit back and watch Donahue squirm. If it’s done for a good cause it blows his already wafer-thin arguments clean away!
Rev. BigDumbChimp @ #140
My apologies… I shouldn’t assume that everyone knows every disgusting Internet meme…
(That apology goes out to everyone, actually; sorry! Also, sorry for the double post. I’ll eventually figure this posting thing out someday.)
I’ll do it, but it’ll be $1AUD for if that is okay. Our dollar died hard in recent days.
honestly I’d seen the pic before but never knew it had a meme name. I was hoping to avoid it in the future..
hehe
I wish I could go back to the time where I was oblivious to Lemon Party. Also Goatse, Meatspin, 2girls1cup, and VenomFangX.
Normally my curiosity would overcome me, and I would go a-Googling, and regret it almost immediately. Right now I’m just too tired. However enticing “Meatspin” might ordinarily sound for me, I think it’s much better if I just go to bed.
Kel – you’re on. I can’t afford much myself, but I’ll try. I might even put my own video on Youtube suggesting the idea. See if it catches on! Desecration for charity – Atheists putting their contempt of religion to good use, and nobody gets hurt (except Donahoe’s blood pressure!)
It is moral or immoral to urinate on Bill Donohue?
No problem so long as it is done from great height.
Or with so few people lining up to give him one…
The reward of being angry is feeling right. Bill Donahue gets so little of it, otherwise.
I do not know if anyone saw the youtube video, but I posted numerous times on the video debating the Catholics in there. I then left to go to the gym and store for several hours. When I came back, all my posts except one were gone…
So much for their ability to honestly debate anyone…
So I take it my email revealing to you the secrets of the universe didn’t make it through huh?
I guess I can send you another copy-
WAIT! NO! BAD RANCOR! USB is NOT food! Bad!
Sigh… give it a little more time.
I know what this thread needs…
Just tell these rabid religious retards that if they want to contact you let their god do it and you’ll be all ears and will patiently wait for a message. Morons
Five hundred new hits today at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq_XZuF6Vsk today and some great comments
Raven @18
Time for Hagee or one of the other fundie humanoid toads to dust off the old, The Catholic Church is the Church of Satan and the Pope is the Antichrist schtick.
Oh, Hagee has kept the good old Whore-of-Babylon stuff quite free of dust the whole time, as John McCain (a man obviously unclear on the concept of “due diligence”1) discovered to his embarrassment.
Donohue will go after the Hagees of the world when he has to, but only because he has to, to keep up appearances. But that’s not what he’s paid to do. His job is to get socially conservative American Roman Catholics out of the Democratic Party and into the Republicans, and then keep them there. (The funding that got his scam started wan’t from the Pope; it was from the Heritage Foundation.) He can’t refrain too often from attacking the Hagees of the world, but there is no upside in it for him; they are both working for the same people.
Peter Mc @123,
there a theology of digestion to account for this – eshitology?
You’ll burn in hell for that, you bad man. And so will I, for giggling at it.
1 See also Palin, Gov. Sarah, selection of as running mate.
I am a former Atheist who had enough human decency and respect for others to not have to prop myself up higher than those who believed. Although I found them silly, I was not so insecure as to harbor hatred toward them. Some of you NEED to ask yourselves why you are filled with such hate. I am a CATHOLIC who attends mass weekly by choice and I bring communion to 15 lovely elderly residents of a nursing home… and I choose to believe in God. Faith is a choice; it cannot be proved or disproved (some of you think you are so bright, but have probably never heard of the theory that deals with the inability to prove nothingness). If you had respect for your fellow man, regardless of faith (or lack thereof)you would not find it necessary or desirable to attack something to sacred to many. For Catholics, the Holy Sacrement IS Jesus. It is not a representation of Him. And if you are honest and compassionate, you would understand the pain you cause those who choose to believe. Most Catholics pray for you, but you can’t expect all of us NOT to be offended and angry. We’re imperfect, sinful humans, just the way God created us and loves us. God bless you all. May you ask yourselves WHY you are so angry and hateful and may you understand that your gross generalizations are just silly.
Just send Bill Donohue over to my place. I’ll give him something to throw a tantrum over!
FLNonny, tell us, did you “suffer your atheism”? Did you “know there was a higher power but you wouldn’t admit it to yourself”? Because you missed those particular atheist straw man ‘traits’ promoted by theists in your “former atheist” performance.
Again, confirmation that Catholicism is a cracker worshipping cult.
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
I’m not filled with hate, I just love watching religious hypocrisy. No single religious tradition should be above the sanctity of life, agreed? What happened with the cracker incident is that a goddamned cracker was deemed to be more worthy of protection than a human life, and now we are seeing apologist after apologist screaming for religious tolerance they themselves didn’t allow. All this over a cursed communion wafer…
Instead of praying for me, or praying at all for that matter, how about getting off your knees and actually doing something that can make a difference.
However, if you want to continue to demonstrate the utter silliness and insecurity of your religion by continuing to get all bunched up about a cracker please continue to keep praying. The more you kneel there and talk to yourself (and that is all you are doing when you pray) the less your religion intrudes on our lives.
FLNinny (#190) alleged,
So you’re saying that now you no longer have enough respect for others to not prop yourself up higher than others?
Then this makes more sense:
….you sanctimonious turd.
JB: Well, PutZ, did you expect us to go away quietly, just because you singlehandedly insulted every believer of every religion on the planet with your hateful spewings? Nope! It doesn’t work that way! This is all the result of your decision to spread worldwide hatred for people who find peace in God, however they see him.
That’s wonderful! “He made me do it!”
It’s at about the intellectual level of a four year old. I love it when “they” prove my preconceptions.
FLNonny: Faith is a choice; it cannot be proved or disproved (some of you think you are so bright, but have probably never heard of the theory that deals with the inability to prove nothingness).
So are you saying you have faith in nothing?
For your sake, I hope you’re a Poe – you’ve obviously never heard of The Razor.
FLNonny, if you had respect for your fellow man, regardless of sexual orientation (or lack thereof) you would not find it necessary or desirable to attack homosexuality which is so important to many. If you are honest and compassionate, you would understand the pain you cause those who are gay. Most gay people wish you well, but you can’t expect all of them NOT to be offended and angry.
FLNonny… You are confused by ridicule and hate.
Making fun of silly ideas is not hate.
“Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.” -Thomas Jefferson
“Ridicule is the compliment lively intelligence pays to jackassery.” – R. Emmett Tyrrell, Jr.
FLNonny (#190):
Sigh. Another believer who can’t tell the difference between criticism of ideas and actions on the one hand, and hatred for people on the other. What’s up with that?
Incorrect. Technically speaking, only propositions can be proved or disproved. The fact that some propositions are accepted by some people as a matter of faith is a quite separate issue from whether those propositions can be demonstrated to be true or false. It depends on the proposition in question.
I assume you mean the axiom or principle (not a theory, which is something quite different) that you can’t prove a negative. Well, again, that depends on the statement in question. Some negative statements are quite easy to prove (e.g., “There are no velociraptors in my toolshed”).
And if you had any integrity, you would make some effort to understand the context of the actions you’ve decided to criticise, since it’s obvious from your post that you don’t have a clue what PZ was protesting against.
Yes, we know that Catholics (most of them anyway) literally believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation. That does not make the doctrine any less absurd, nor the actions taken by certain Catholics in defence of that doctrine any less objectionable. Incidentally, it’s spelt “sacrament”.
Well, the best (i.e., least ridiculous) explanation of the “pain” caused by PZ’s actions that I’ve read from any Catholic here, compared it to the destruction of a child’s teddy bear.
So there, there. We’ll buy you a new one. Have some ice cream.
Hey dummy. Hate overstates the case, more like appalled disgust and justified fear with the christofascist Death Cultists.
And no we don’t need to ask ourselves anything. We know and it is obvious to any thinking being. Do try to keep up.
The fundie Death Cultists have wrecked this country. Everyone knows it. A poll this week said that only 9% of the US population thought we were on the right track. Bush’s approval rating is 25%, nearly a record low for a president. The familar issues, a pointless, expensive war that has killed hundreds of thousands including thousands of US soldiers. A financial crisis, dead dollar, dead economy, high prices for necessities like food and gasoline. Constant attempts to force their primitive mytholgies on the rest of us by sneaking creationism into schools, outlawing birth control, and fomenting hatred towards one minority group or another.
If christofascists weren’t destroying everything they can and trying to set up an unworkable hell on earth theocracy no one would give one damn what they do or believe. They could make crackers into idols, wave rattlesnakes around, tell each other lies such as the earth is flat, the center of the universe, 6,000 years old, and watch their teen agers get pregnant and no one would do anything more than laugh.
Posted by: FLNonny | October 8, 2008 6:57 AM
I am a former Atheist…
Liar, you were NEVER an atheist, God told me so…
Your concern is noted.
Travis said:
Not to mention thePope telling people to eschew wealth (yeah, it falls under hypocrisy).
It’s called projection. They do hate us (and protestants, and muslims, and…..) for not believing like them. They just assume everyone else is as immoral and hateful as they are.
FastLane (#204):
Projection, probably. But my own suspicion is that the main thing they’re projecting is their own propensity for ideological group-think. Their sense of belonging to a group (in this case Roman Catholic Christianity) revolves around a strong emotional commitment to the beliefs that define the membership of that group, and when someone attacks those beliefs, they take it as a personal attack upon themselves (since the beliefs in question are not merely “things I think are the case” but “part of who I am and what makes me worthwhile”). In projecting this kind of thinking onto their critics, they assume that those critics are deliberately attacking them personally, and so can only be doing so out of personal animosity.
These are people who understand belief primarily in terms of commitments to persons and groups, rather than in terms of reasoned justification. That’s why they get so obnoxious when other people refuse to take those beliefs seriously.
Still can’t see that your actions have consequences? Long may your inbox be flooded! besides, a self promoter like yourself should revel in the spotlight. before this you were an obscure no-namer in a po-dunk college. Now you are a semi-known professor at some obscure po-dunk college getting attention from all over the world. If you can’t take a bit of criticism, maybe you should be reasonable and think about the consequences of your actions. Your stupidity and self promotion gave rise to the reaction you have seen and will continue to see for a long time to come.
Still can’t see that your actions have consequences? Long may your inbox be flooded! besides, a self promoter like yourself should revel in the spotlight. before this you were an obscure no-namer in a po-dunk college. Now you are a semi-known professor at some obscure po-dunk college getting attention from all over the world. If you can’t take a bit of criticism, maybe you should be reasonable and think about the consequences of your actions. Your stupidity and self promotion gave rise to the reaction you have seen and will continue to see for a long time to come.
John, you ever think if catolicks wouldn’t keep telling PZ that they hate him the issue would go away? The easiest way for this to die down is for Bill Donohue to forget about it. But then, that would require an act of your factious god. I’m not holding my breath.
I guess it really is to much to ask Christians to turn the other cheek. Following the teachings of Jesus is soooo 1st century.
Weren’t you supposed to hijack a jet and fly it into the highest building in Morris, MN? Which, since you are very stupid, is a grain silo.
John, TERRORISM. You are doing it wrong!!!
If you think being a hit and run troll on a message board while babbling stupidly about nothing important bothers anyone, forget about it. PZ Myers received tens of thousands of hate emails and well over a hundred death threats. All that happened is one dumb guy got his wife fired. And they are lucky. Sending death threats through the internet is a felony and many people are in prison for doing exactly that.
For your next lesson, we will describe what happens to terrorists. Do the words prison, Guantanamo, and Homeland Security ring any bells?
There’s been some online speculation among Catholics as to whether FSMdude and PZ Myers are suffering from demonic obsession, or even full-blown possession.
Judging from FSMdude’s actions, facial expressions and voice, it is conceivable that this misguided youth has succumbed to demonic influence. Rest assured Catholics are praying for him.
As for Prof Myers, it would explain his rather worrying semi-erotic fixation with cthuloid cephalopods. (Then again, maybe he just feels a natural affinity with all things cold, slimy and spineless.)
lol, I love the religious. Bringing absurdity to the table with a deadpan expression that could only indicate they are being serious. Goodness bless them, they are a silly lot.
Any possibility of leprechaun influence? How about goblins? Mischievous little bastards, ya know.
Piltdown’s a Poe, right?
If not: Pilty, when the Old Ones come, you’ll wish for possession by some mere puny Christian “demon”. (I’m not worried, as I plan on being eaten first.)
Let’s see….
“Reaction was expected therefore right” – check.
Ad hominem – check.
Downplaying the response (eg “simple criticism”) – check.
Fatwah envy – missing.
Praying at you – missing.
God’s retribution – missing.
Poor showing even for a crackerhead.
Piltdown Man is a fundie troll. He can stink up a thread for weeks.
Tulse (#214):
I rather suspect that’s why demonic intelligences inspired the whole Cthulhu mythos in the first place. Apart from spreading subliminal ripples of fear and despair, as well as encouraging a fascination with the occult, the whole “Old Ones” scenario is a brilliant exercise in misdirection. By fostering the notion that such entities are merely colossal slavering tentacular monsters (which of course only exist in books), the real demons’ far more subtle nature & activity goes unnoticed.
Patricia (#216):
How very dare you! I’m not a fundamentalist – I’m an integralist.
How very C. S. Lewis of you.
Some Protestants say that demons — subtle in nature & activity indeed! — have long since attacked and corrupted the Roman Catholic Church… and how on Earth could you possibly prove them wrong?
Psst: C. S. Lewis was an Anglican… are you going to go by what a heretic (or are they “merely” schismatics?) has to say about theology?
“(which of course only exist in books)”
Of course. Shoggoths, thetans, goblins, incubi, talking snakes…
I don’t see how Pilty can have a coherant theology without proving his alleged god. The evidence has been mighty thin on that one. How can one posit the attributes of a god with evidence? Oh yeah, just make it up as you go along. Nice fiction. Or is it delusion?
Woah, are you being serious?!? Catholicism gets more awesome the more I look into it. First it starts with the S&M thing with Jesus. Then it goes to the cannibalism / vampirism. Now it has demons that inspire fantasy tales in order to hide their true works?!? Whoever said monotheism was void of creativity was wrong.
Though it’s inevitable when your religion is a mixture of Judaism and Paganism.
With all respect to CS Lewis, the cunning and duplicity of demons was legendary long before Screwtape appeared on the scene.
Well since the Roman Catholic Church performs exorcisms, perhaps Mark 3:22-23 applies?
Pilty, any reference to the bible doesn’t count at this blog. It just means you aren’t able to do the proper research for a modern reverence. Either put up some evidence from outside the bible, which is a book badly written by people for their own purposes, or just give it up.
Lord, send me a succubus! I’m lonely.
So what does Mark say…?
3:22 And the scribes who were come down from Jerusalem, said: He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of devils he casteth out devils.
3:23 And after he had called them together, he said to them in parables: How can Satan cast out Satan?
Snrk.
You’re a paranoid dualist, and you’re not paranoid enough to infer the obvious answer? If devils do exist and if devils do indeed have a hierarchy, then of course a higher-ranking devil can order lower-ranking ones out of people… especially if that higher-ranking devil ordered the lower-ranking devils into those same people in the first place.
See also agents provacateur, false flag operations, fifth columnists, double- and triple-agents, shills, plants, and other tactics of deceit.
Really, Jesus’ disingenuous response to the accusation is a huge red flag.
(Since the whole idea of demons is almost as silly and absent evidence as the idea of God, I rather think that Jesus was more of a con man than anything else. But still. Demon Prince Jesus — shouldn’t rule it out.)
And, come on: Look at Benedict “Emperor Palpatine” XVI. Just look at him. Are you quite, quite, certain that he cannot possibly be demon-possessed?
Owlmirror (#225):
It’s certainly more plausible than your other hypothesis (Jesus as homicidal cult leader).
I can’t deny the fiendish ingenuity — Demon Jesus pretending to cast out demons so everyone would thnk he was a good guy, thus allowing him to set up a dummy Church with millions of devoted followers. Brilliant!
And of course once this Church was up and running, he could implement his diabolical schemes. Like converting whole nations to the public worship of the God of Israel, suppressing devil-worship and the occult sciences in general, and outlawing abortion.
Do you honestly believe in demonic possession?
Pilty, more stupid godbotting that makes no sense. Of course, the nonsense part is true of all religious/theological ideas. Time for to you to click on the dungeon button at the top of the page to see what will get you banned. Two of the issues are godbotting and stupidity. You qualify on both counts. Time for you to stay home.
OOOHHH, a second spiritual being. Quite the fiction writer. Again, like your silly god, spiritual in nature, but interacts with the real world. Heres the problem. If it interacts with the real world, we should be able to measure the interactions. If it doesn’t interact, why bother making it up. Use Occam’s razor and kill both beings. It changes nothing. After all, your theology is still nonsense, and losing it all together might bring you closer to reality.
Well, I can only repeat what I said to you on another thread — that I don’t quote Bible verses under the delusion that atheists will find them authoritative. I might quote the Bible, Church documents etc in order to clarify a point of Catholic teaching or the Catholic perspective on a particular issue, but that’s an entirely different thing, as I hope you’ll agree.
In this instance, Owlmirror asked how I, as a Catholic, would respond to Protestant claims that the Catholic Church is a nest of demons. If some Protestant whackaloon threw that at me, a biblical reference would be an appropriate response.
Kel:
Yes, absolutely.
Pilty, as usual you are missing the point. Any claim to church doctrine is fiction, since it is built on the principle that god exists. Therefore, at an theist blog, where god doesn’t exist, it is pure and utter nonsense. If you want to discuss religion, you need to go elsewhere. Why do you insist on trying to discuss religion at a godless blog? You haven’t made a compelling case, nor can you. Time to go home.
Piltdown Man (#227):
Well, yes. Enforce public worship of the most diabolical supernatural entity of all, suppress any similar cults to eliminate competition, and rob women of control over their own bodies. That’s what I would do if I was a Demon Messiah bent on spreading evil and suffering.
That is funniest shit I’ve ever heard. I can’t stop laughing. I think you’ve found the killing joke there!
I’m calm, I’ve calmed down… shit, hahahahaha! It’s the 21st century! We’re 500 years into enlightenment. Well the rest of us are. I guess there really is a God, putting gullible fools like you as entertainment. Shit man, the fact that you can say with a straight face that magic creatures have nothing better to do than mess around with homosapiens to me is proof that we aren’t so highly evolved after all.
The Gibbons have it made, they spend their days swinging around from tree to tree, not a care in the world. We develop bigger brains so we can have a match in who can believe the most incredulous fantasy as reality! 6 million years out of africa and in the absence of any animal threat our ancestors face we make one up. Funny stuff, that Catholicism is one nutty religion.
By the way, thanks for the entertainment. That was the pick-me-up I needed tonight. Hang around man, you are far too good for entertainment value to lose.
How would you distinguish demon possession from psychopathy?
You mean, asserting that he was identical to the God of Israel, and diverting all worship to himself…
Note how the law of the “God of Israel” was overthrown and rejected… Oh, right, you say “fulfilled”. How very convenient.
Why shouldn’t a devil prince want to get rid of the competition?
Of course. Don’t want people getting ideas in their heads.
And this too can be seen as the elimination of the competition. Note that miscarriages are “spontaneous”… Just natural accidents? Or the result of a life-sucking baby-eating demon…?
Once you posit that demons exist, and crank the paranoia up to 11, you can draw just about any conclusion.
Speaking of drawing any conclusion:
It has been documented that in Romania, when abortion was outlawed, violent crime of all sorts spiked some 15-20 years later, just as the cohorts of young persons who would not otherwise have been born were reaching maturity. Of course, the secular explanation for this is that the criminals were children raised in poverty by young mothers who were inexperienced, despairing, resentful, and isolated, or in state orphanages by abusive and incompetent caretakers. The young adults who resulted from these sorts of malignant life experiences were more likely to have lives plagued by violence, and of course learned to use violence as their primary mode of behavior.
But as long as we’re positing demons, we can just as easily suggest that children raised in poverty are much better candidates for demon possession…
Owlmirror:
I daresay many people assumed to be merely mad would benefit from an exorcism, but then again some might be simply mad. I guess one would want to know if there were any praeternatural phenomena associated with their condition & how they reacted to the presence of Catholic sacramentals.
Certain ritual and legal prescriptions were superseded but not the fundamental moral principles. The Ten Commandments are still binding on Christians.
What competition? We talking about a unified chain of command, remember (CS Lewis’ “lowerarchy”).
Eliminating undesirables before they are born is certainly consonant with the logic of godless technocracy … In which case, why not make abortion compulsory for dysfunctional young mothers? Just to stop any criminal elements from slipping through the net, you understand?
Then again, it does seem a bit of a scattergun approach — after all, not everyone born into such circumstances will turn to crime. How about waiting till they’re five years old? Any anti-social tendencies should have manifested themselves by then. That way we can weed out the reprobates while ensuring we don’t accidentally flush away any potentially productive members of society.
Nerd of Redhead (#232):
“If there were no God, there would be no atheists.”
Do you try to present yourself as an idiot? Man, you are such a moron. Though that’s to be expected from someone who believes in literal demonic possession. Again, thanks for the laugh. I thought I was going to pass out from asphyxiation. That’s the grown-up word for what you would call demonic posession ;)
Pilty, you finally lost it. Atheism is lack of belief in gods. All gods. (You are an atheist except for your one god.) We don’t need god not to believe in him. If you didn’t believe in them we wouldn’t need a name for non-belief in gods. We would call it rationality.
Our position on gods is indifference. You can do what you want with them, but when you try to make use believe them or use them inappropriately to legislate morality, we object.
Time to take your fairy tales and go.
Ah. So, there cannot be demons that can control themselves in demonstrating “praeternatural phenomena”, and in how they react to “the presence of Catholic sacramentals”?
When was the last time you honored the seventh day of the week, as commanded?
I had wondered how the Sabbath was shifted from the seventh to the first day of the week. Now that I know about John Chrysostom’s rants about the Jews, and Jewish-Christians celebrating the Jewish holidays and festivals, I kind of suspect I know.
I assume that you would say that Chrysostom could not possibly have been possessed by a demon?
And remind me again about how this:
“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”
squares with honoring one’s parents?
In theory, isn’t the Church supposed to be a unified chain of command? And yet there it is, fragmented to Hell and back. Why should devils be more unified than the Church?
Well, there is the point that a secular and pluralistic society does grant personal sovereignty to women over their own bodies. You’re the one whose Church wants a tyranny of absolute control, remember? Much like a demonic hierarchy might well seek…
Practically, how would one go about figuring out that a particular pregnant woman is dysfunctional? Perhaps because she does indeed seek an abortion? In which case, the problem solves itself, does it not?
How would you go about determining “anti-social tendencies” in a five-year-old? Praeternatural phenomena? Bad reaction to the Catholic sacraments?
Now, there’s a self-refuting assertion if I ever saw one.
Owlmirror:
I’m not a demonologist, but I imagine evil spirits could indeed conceal their praeterntaural powers.
Again I’m no expert, but I suspect they wouldn’t be able to control their reactions in this case.
Owlmirror:
I’m not a demonologist, but I imagine evil spirits could indeed conceal their praeterntaural powers.
Again I’m no expert, but I suspect they wouldn’t be able to control their reactions in this case.
Fecking double posts …
Naw, just fecking posts of a religious idiot who should be talking religion elsewhere. If Owlmirror wants to discuss religion with you why don’t you give him your e-mail so you can take it off line.
As you wish. Thanks for tolerating me.
Oh, and watch out for the tentacles . . .
Below the thunders of the upper deep,
Far far beneath in the abysmal sea,
His ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep
The Kraken sleepeth: faintest sunlights flee
About his shadowy sides: above him swell
Huge sponges of millennial growth and height;
And far away into the sickly light,
From many a wondrous grot and secret cell
Unnumbered and enormous polypi
Winnow with giant fins the slumbering green.
There hath he lain for ages and will lie
Battering upon huge seaworms in his sleep,
Until the latter fire shall heat the deep;
Then once by men and angels to be seen,
In roaring he shall rise and on the surface die.
– Tennyson, “The Kraken “
Or they could display them, in carefully controlled situations, and claim to be saints or prophets — or even the son of God.
It occurs to me, following the “Demon Prince Jesus” scenario, that the demons might not be reacting to their antithesis, but rather to the essence of their boss. “Jesus is coming — look busy!”
What is the reaction, anyway? Spinning their heads around and vomiting split-pea-soup?
Of course “the principle” was changed! The most basic principle of keeping the Sabbath is to honor the seventh day.
Another important principle is not lighting fires, on whichever day it happens to be — and of course, barbecues and cooking are certainly done on both days… by Christians, anyway.
Actually, it looks like “the Church”, in this case, was mostly a bunch of guys in Laodicea.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3806.htm
Isn’t that exactly how God meant Deut 11:1? A few dozen guys can get together and say “If you follow God’s law exactly as God said, you are CURSED”… And that settles it. Because a handful of men is more important than God himself, right?
Sure, the hyperbole of the narssicistic psychopath. Or an arrogant demon prince.
And speaking of which, how about that line “let the dead bury their dead” ? That’s real encouraging of respect towards one’s parents.
That’s simply because you’re wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Schisms_in_Christianity
(and don’t forget the subcategories… there’s 47 pages of “Ancient Christian denominations”, and 40-odd antipopes)
Just as the chain of command would be for a demon hierarchy, with discord, and a touch of pandemonium.
One would expect no such thing. After all, as creatures of spirit, they would be far more vulnerable to the sins of the spirit: pride, vanity, arrogance, envy…
Ah, but it’s not a child until it’s a person, and it’s not a person until it at least has a functioning brain, and some might well argue, is no longer a threat to the mother’s life by being inside her body.
Even the bible has no recognition that the unborn are fully human.
Fascinating. Almost as daft as the notion that beating children up will magically make them into law-abiding, God-fearing adults.
the church is upset because youtube is not subject to blastphemy laws. so they act like it is bigotry and persecution….really, we’ve seen this a thousand times before.
good RAMEN to you FSMdude!!!!