The cracker incident has had yet more fallout.
I just learned that one of you generous readers did more than send a letter of support — they actually sent a nice sum of money to the university that is being transferred to the biology discipline, and which we will be using to support biology instruction. Thanks very much, whoever you are!
Wow. That is way cool of someone.
The lord works in mysterious ways
Money donations, way more effective than magic crackers.
Very cool stuff indeed.
Ya gotta have a sense of humor! argh!
Kudos to that generous reader! I’m sure my email was just tallied alongside so many others, that kind of ‘statement’ is a fantastic way to show support.
I was going to send money for a memorial for the cracker, but I didn’t think they’d spend the money as I wished:)
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Cool guy! Very cool guy!
Yay for the cool guy!
It’s comforting to know that the wingnuts on the evangelical right aren’t the only ones willing to throw a little of their monetary influence behind their convictions!
Hey, don’t sweat it, Paul, it was my pleasure. Had all that money lying around, and there’s no way I’m investing it in THESE markets, so, well… Also, I’m lending you my lear jet for your busy conference schedule this fall. It should be landing on your street in about ten minutes.
yeah that wasn’t directed at you, just happened to follow you
arrrrrrrrrrg
@Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
Well the church has obviously known that for years. That’s why they give away the magic crackers and take in money instead of the other way round.
Kinda makes me sad that I am not wealthy.
Oh well….
**Slogs back to salt mine**
Posted by: Lucas | September 19, 2008 3:27 PM
Classic! Nicely put, sir.
#10 -I had marked the comment as sarcastic, but tags etc that work in other places don’t always work around here. I rushed it, and didn’t preview the comment as I was trying to be a first comment…..
I just wanted to claify my comment…No problem there Rev…
Enjoy your day!
One of these atheists is cooler than the others
One of these atheists found a way to play along
Can you tell which atheist is cooler than the others
By the time I finish my song?
/flashback
Just think: twenty more centuries of this, and you can afford a cool hat and live in a palace fill with classic art and …
Oh, wait. You’ll probably just use it for “science.” Pfft.
…
Yar.
Wow, I’m really impressed by that guy’s generosity, you should really try and get that information to the press. I bet it would rattle a few cages and hopefully start a trend to fund sciences.
How much? 30 pieces of silver?
Good for that guy, girl, intersexed, or other! It fills my heart with pride :)
Chris,
Shiver me timbers.
Er… so the university is Judas and it led PZ, (AKA “the chief priests”), to a cracker, (transubstantially known as “Hunk o’ Jesus”), which PZ nailed… and not in the good way. Right?
Great news. Maybe I should start desecrating some crackers so that people send this biology student some funds for his education.
Who knew the solution to the state of US biology education was so easily solved? Nail more crackers!
A downpayment on the Anonymous Pharynguloid Endowed Chair, no doubt.
thanks.
Well shiver me timbers and a noggin of rum to the right fine pirate who sent the silver.
Yay for science-minded
phillanfrophilantrophilanthrofgenerous donation of money!~David D.G.
Thanks to whoever did this. Funding science and making a statement about religious bigotry at the same time is a great example of making one’s money go further.
That rocks and rocks hard.
The mighty Cracker is indeed mysterious. Mock it and it returns with goodness. Yeah, unto the mighty Cracker.
Off topic: what kind of cracker is it? Like a saltine?
That is indeed awesome. Thank you, anonymous donor. You are indeed a candle in the dark (or fanning the flames, if you prefer …).
Also, welcome back brokensoldier (my apologies if you haven’t actually been away).
Awe. Some.
The Catholic League couldn’t have prayed for a better outcome.
You obviously didn’t get my own contribution yet. Let’s try again.
Inside Cougar Circle, in front of the Student Center, you will find a large X, which marks a spot. No, not THE SPOT; just A spot. Walk east from that spot until you pass a colorful parrot perched upon a man with two peg legs and one peg arm, carrying The Peggy Lee Songbook and a half-eaten Pig in a Blanket. Ask the parrot for a light. Now, this is important: however it responds, just play along — and Peg-Man will slip you a bag o’ doubloons. Take the bag down to the docks and round up your crew. Assign one of them to be lookout, and
Arrr! Ye canna be giv’n ‘way me doubloons so easy, matey! It’s o’er th’ gangplank with ye, an’ int’ th’ deep
whew, close call there. Yeah, so just take the doubloons and put them under your mattress. I wouldn’t trust them to a bank these days. Buy some pipettes or a new Petri dish — live a little.
Somebody send me a generator
-sitting in dark with moldy crackers
Does this mean that more crackers will get destroyed when the biology department needs a cash infusion? Bill Donohue will have a heart attack!
@#22: Please rephrase.
That’s pretty cool that someone did that.
I wish I could claim that it was me who sent in the money, but as a poor biology undergraduate, I can’t. Maybe if I give a similar display, though…
Cool donor is cool.
Huh?
That’s not the way it was supposed to work for that prick Donohue. He wanted you FIRED, not to have increased funds earmarked for the spreading and dissemination of biological knowledge, including perhaps,the dreaded evolution.
I would love to be a fly on his wall when he finds out about this…he’s gonna be sooooo pissed and I’d pretty much give anything to see the spectacular purple shade the bastard goes before he chokes on his own fury.
Thankyou unnamed donor. We’ll probably never know who you are but we’re all sending warm fuzzies your way. Honary OM for you for being the coolest person on the intertoobs this year.
Xebecs @ 32
Yeah, so just take the doubloons and put them under your mattress. I wouldn’t trust them to a bank these days.
Don’t do it, I fell for this entire Pirate’s Gold scenario as written.
When I woke up the next morning, and checked under the mattress all I had was a bag stuffed with children’s baby teeth.
I suspect it is a sick and twisted mindfuck by those Flying Spaghetti Monster heretics.
http://happysphere.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/riz-crackers/
Another way to make money off the cracker-gate is to endorse these
That is really awesome, great work anonymous donor…
It was me. I sent the $10. Thanks – but it’s no problem, I have another $10.
Whoever donated the money totally deserves a self-cleaning sex yacht.
Anonymous donor: brilliant way to show support! I wish I were richer now… :-)
Danio has a sex yachat. She got it from the pirate namer.
Huzzah for the donor! Well done!
Good to see Brokensoldier & Scooter back.
No salt. Just flour and water, baked. Pure starch. Like rice paper, only that wheat flour is used.
Yeah, am, that was totally me. No need to thank me or ask any follow-up questions.
Arrrrh, ’tis gratifyin’, me bucko! Nicest thing I’ve heard all day, in fact.
Anonymous Donor = stellar atheist:
When a fellow atheist such as PZ is in trouble AD offers something … useful, rather than something useless like prayer. Think of it as “reason-based charity”.
(I don’t mean to imply that donating $$ is the *only* way to be a stellar atheist, or even the main/only way in which AD is one.) /preemptive clarification
Gosh dangit.
I forgot to add: Yarrrr.
I just told my wife about this blog post and she suggested that you, PZ, “anonymously” made the donation out of your own pocket in order to save your job!
That’s why I love her. She’s so cynical. When she trains that laser beam on me it keeps me humble.
Yeah! Desecration for fun and profit!
If I ever “hit it big” I’ll donate too.
Arrrrrrr ye scurvy cephalopod.
Chris Bell Said:
I just told my wife about this blog post and she suggested that you, PZ, “anonymously” made the donation out of your own pocket in order to save your job!
Did you mean *his* own pockest?
I highly doubt PZ’s position is in jeopardy, but being that he is a state supported college professor I’m sure he goes home and rolls around in his piles of money…..In fact I almost guarantee that PZ has Elitist Fat Cat millionaire 2-ply TP in his bathroom (one of my sources even says its quilted!). So maybe he did stage this. Hmmmm…I mean Arrrr.
Sorry, please ignore the Did you mean *his* own pockest? statement for 2 reasons: misspelling and because Chris was directly addressing PZ, which didn’t click the first time I read it.
I would have sent money too only the U of M already has several thousand of my dollars already.
she suggested that you, PZ, “anonymously” made the donation out of your own pocket in order to save your job
On a professor’s salary?
-jcr
Whoever donated the money totally deserves a self-cleaning sex yacht.
Uhh, it was me! I’m the donor, and so’s my wife!
An associate professor with two kids in college making a big donation from his salary? Best laugh of the day. Arrrrr.
AAAAAAAAARgh (talkin lak a Pirate day, argh). Shiver me timbers mate! Lots of talk of desecrating crackers, etc.
In this country, we have freedom of speech, which we all enjoy. We also have freedom of religion, which is the right of everyone to celebrate his or her own religion (or lack thereof), without interference. You pirates can criticize the Church to your heart’s content. But, there is a limit, when it comes to open interference. One hates threats, but PZ has probably conspired to commit a hate crime, which might be a chargeable offense. The Church has declined to charge him. But, if it gets to be a fad, and you pirates want to enter Churches to interfere with our religion, just for fun, you might soon be making the acquaintance of the Police. In other words, live and let live, pirates. MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
It’s the mark of a civilized person. Are some present?
Also, while we are at it, I have read through thousands of Papers and abstracts in my career. There has not been a vulgar word, a swear word, or any nasty lewd personal attacks in any of them. Does this imply something? Like perhaps, real scientists need a cool, objective mind, and are ready to listen politely to the arguments of others, even if in complete disagreement. Also, it implies vulgarity is the opposite, and enemy of, scientific enquiry. So PZ, try a bar of soap. Use it on your mouth. It may help, but then again…
Jack, if you can prove a hate crime has taken place, and just alleged by a believer, please show the evidence. But we both know better. Scientists do call each other names on occasions, even publicly. Your concern is noted and rejected
YAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!11!!!1!!eleventyhundredeleventyone!!!
Jack, go fuck yourself with your bar of soap
PZ never threaten anyone or intentionally tried to make a whole community the target of a crime though a civil act of terrorism.(the definition of hate)
PZ never said he would nor did he ever imply acts of violence. PZ acquired a mass produced, flavorless, unleavened, small, bland, worthless lump of underbaked bread dough thorough a third party that was given the wafer.
None of this was done to strike mortal terror into anyone.
If you think he did then….
Go ahead and file a police report but you should know that filing a police report comes only upon jeopardy of perjury.
I have the right to called Catholics a bunch of brainless harem brooding pope lemmings if I want to. I have the right to wipe my ass with a map of the vatican that people hand out at the airport for free ,and unless you believe in Voodoo you know that this does nothing but make a smelly map.
Jack,
happily, I can assure you that scientists are allowed to fucking swear all bloody day long if they are so inclined. You may have read thousands of papers and abstracts, but you have apparently failed to understand that not everything a scientist writes is automatically a scientific paper.
This blog isn’t one.
Also, there should be more swearing in the world. At its best it’s a wonderful emotional outlet, an endless source of creative language use and frequently hilarious. Surprisingly, it is not a dirty act in and of itself. Even alluding to that ridiculous “soap-in-mouth” attitude just makes me think “twatwaffle”. Which is okay, because it’s one of the better swear words. So, carry on.
(Before anyone misunderstands: there’s a good reason for the lack of swearing in scientific papers, but it’s the same reason you don’t include any other indication of your feelings. It makes perfect sense though ;))
Man why are there so many dumb quotes out there.
Theocracy at work.
Oh wait, we aren’t one…yet.
Wait, this blog is a scientific paper submitted to a Journal?
Really, Jack? Does that mean the church will start minding its own business, and stop trying to force government into the most personal areas of our lives, and stop messing with science education, on the basis of their interpretation of some ancient sheepherder’s hallucinations?
“…harem brooding pope lemmings…” – Amphlexus
I’m awestruck, A. I can’t wait to find a way to slip that into a conversation IRL.
Oh, and Yay, Anonymous Donor!
. . .so that UMM Biology might be rewarded, for its act of blessing bigotry.
Well done, reader. Well done. Just love how the First Amendment is used to first shelter bigots, then serves as a platform for reward.
Bigotry?
Explain?
Congrats to mystery donor who knows that crackers are better used to dip in soup than genuflect too.
Pharangulphobe, if you don’t like PZ and his minions and ilk, why do you read and post here? If I don’t like a TV/radio program, I change the channel or turn it off. You should learn to do the same.
If you think scientific papers don’t contain personal attacks, you haven’t been reading very closely. They don’t contain swear words but they wouldn’t go well with the impersonal style… notice that scientific papers don’t start out with proper greetings either? Does that IMPLY that scientists shouldn’t greet people in real life? Well, screw that.
And I bet the researchers who named the fucK gene at least had a little chuckle about it.
windy (#71):
Heh. A-men to that.
Just want to add my thanks to the generous donor. Our little words mean something (from time to time). But money really talks.
Thank you for the inspiration to continue to fight to crush the infamy.
I’m fucking providing my fucking share. There’ fucking plenty of this shit at my fucking house.
And Arrrrgh fucking argggh!
;)
” The Church has declined to charge him.”
“Theocracy at work.”
Much like George Carlin, PZ has as much power as the pope. He just has fewer people who believe it.
Just what is that anonymous donor trying to do… give atheists a good name? We all know that philanthropy stems from he fear of eternal hellfire at the end of our lives! I’m so upset I don’t know if I can go back and finish eating my roast infant.
@59:
You haven’t seen scientists IRL, off-paper, then… XP
You seriously think one doesn’t exercise their lexical reserves when some 3-day long procedure randomly fails for no explicable reason? You seriously people can engage in molecular biology with a clean mouth?
LOL.
Also, two words: Drunk, Academic
@67:
A department can be capable of blessing some form of biggotry?
And thus said department’s EDUCATIONAL program (that is, for students) must be penalised?
Interesting. Very interesting.
Why am I plagues by such an insufficient sense of logic? I just can’t understand humans…damn, I hate being retarded. =(
My favorite part of the lingering crackergate is the sheer improbability of those protesting having actually seen the original post containing the desecration.
Not only was the horrific picture “below the fold”, it was preceeded by a very lengthy dissertation on the act of Holy Communion, and required much down-scrolling (possibly including reading) to get to.
Not a single one of the cracker-worshipers “stumbled upon” anything they didn’t desperately want to see.
How utterly empty is the life of someone who can only define himself by seeking out that which offends him?
How void of meaning must the existence of a person be if said person is spending inordinate amounts of time seeking out offence?
Man, I’m glad I don’t hate myself that much.
Also, there should be more swearing in the world. At its best it’s a wonderful emotional outlet, an endless source of creative language use and frequently hilarious.
Stephen Fry wholeheartedly agrees with you.
“Also, there should be more swearing in the world. At its best it’s a wonderful emotional outlet, an endless source of creative language use and frequently hilarious.”
That’s only because he’s British and their quality of swearing is so high. Spend time with the foul-mouths of America and it gets old very very fast.
Bah PZ, you mention huge monetary donations but not cephalopoda hoodies?
How is it a hatecrime to dispose of a cracker? It’s not like Catholics own the rights to tell others what to do with crackers or wafers.
But they already know that, don’t they?
Good.
Just love how the First Amendment is used to first shelter bigots,
That’s how free speech works. Nobody needs protection to say things that aren’t objectionable.
There’s a reason why the ACLU defended the first amendment rights of the nazis, and they were right to do so.
-jcr
Crackergate = the gift that keeps on giving.
The whining and screaming from the religilous have become a smooth jazz balm unto our ears. And the heathens did give unto the heathen school. And Buddha saw that it was good….
A tip of the hat to the donor. Very classy and more than just a gesture, like many of us who sent letters, etc. Way to go!
Svetogorsk @#80:
Extra points for that. If it’s good enough for Stephen Fry, then the rest of us should strive to pepper our conversation with words like “crevice” and “job” and “leak”.
From your post “the great desecration”
“and the idea that they were obsessing over obtaining a non-sacred, powerless, pointless relic is ludicrous”
Which is exactly what you were and what you did. If you don’t believe in what Catholics say it is, why desecrate it?
As someone who is Catholic AND working on a project studying evolution, I am wondering why you have such hatred against Catholics. The Church is not against evolution or science. Such a hangup suggests, um, “issues.”
I just came over to check out your blog because I saw you were in Madison and I missed the talk. I was really hoping for less anti-religion zealotry. Certainly there is a discussion to be had about the role of religion in the public square, but that does not seem to be your goal.
To show that there’s not thing to it and it’s just a damn cracker? Same with the koran and the “god delusion”?
And as one who used to be a catholic, I suggest you re-read his writings, PZ has no hatred for catholics. The only hatred he has is for stupid, no matter what they believe (or don’t believe).
Your ideas are uninteresting and I don’t wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
You should not use words you don’t understand.
Well I think PZ made his opinion about the role of religion in the public square clear years ago: it has none. As long as it’s kept private it’s A-ok, you’re free to think what you want, but when you try to inflict stupid on other people it becomes much less ok, and it’s other people’s right to mock your beliefs, whether you like it or not.
@Audrey #88
Also, I suggest that you get some more information about the history and time line of the cracker incident, you should soon realize that PZ didn’t quite do it because of “hatred against Catholics“
Audrey @88:
You are confused by your own misapplication of the associative principle. What you are seeing here is anti-(religion zealotry).
That is fucking awsome! Good news for once.
Audrey #88, Just as long as you don’t expect less disgust for people who would physically assault someone attending church because he didn’t swallow their symbolic cannibalistic meal immediately. And people who would try to get him impeached. And people who send hate mail and death threats to PZ and his family for speaking up.
I remember a time when christans forgave and turned the other cheek. Still, you can’t practice such inanity for ever can you Audrey?
#89
Thanks for your response. Can you provide some clarification on a couple of points?
Do you think being a practicing Catholic equates to “stupid” as you put it? Are you speaking for Mr. Myers as well as yourself in this case? (As I said in my post, I haven’t read the blog before, nor any books by the man).
Could you define your use of the word “zealotry”? I do not see from your remarks how I have misused it. Same to anyone else who remarked about that. From my POV, it seems fanatical, and anti-religious.
Would you rather that people ascribe to a religion without actually adhering to its beliefs (in other words, would that satisfy being non religion-zealous?)
Is it possible to keep any thought or belief completely private? That seems implausible. Our beliefs do have an impact on our behavior, don’t they? If yes, then it seems that you’re arguing that only people who espouse your beliefs (the non-“stupid” beliefs) are acceptable in our society. Which would fall under the definition of “bigot.”
AS an aside, I think it’s funny that he tried to show it’s just a cracker – I mean, where’s the control? (I only saw one in the picture).
For an uninterested person you seem to have made the longest reply so far. :)
#93
I had hoped my post would have come off conveying more my thoughts than my emotions. I’m more puzzled by Mr. Myers than I am disgusted. But rest assured – I would not support death threats. Hate mail, well, that’s a POV issue (they have the right to hate, don’t they?) Impeachment? Up to his employer I would think. “symbolic cannabalistic meal” – Catholics regard it as neither symbolic nor cannabalistic. It’s not dead flesh. It’s not a cracker. It’s not something I think I’ll persuade you on. :) But I still don’t understand why anyone would provoke another person or church that way.
#94
“I remember a time when christans forgave and turned the other cheek. Still, you can’t practice such inanity for ever can you Audrey?”
Hahaha, when was that?
Forever? No, won’t need to. Death will bring the end of that. Inanity – subjective. Just because you think it’s empty doesn’t mean it IS. Or can you really prove that? I’m not saying that to provoke – I really want to know. Can you prove that it’s inane?
I’d compare it to riding a rollercoaster. Someone could say that your stomach “flips” when you ride it. No amount of explanation would do it though, you’d have to ride the coaster to experience it. I think the same is true for faith.
Anyway, I’ve never posted here before, and I expect as the ‘new person’ who’s one of the “other” to have my character ripped to shreds, but I thought I might learn something new.
Take care – A
He “didn’t quite do it because of ‘hatred of Catholics'”????
Yes, I know his global intent was something bigger than just dissing Catholics.
But how can one NOT interpret his actual ACTIONS as “hatred for Catholics”? Is that really surprising that it would be interpreted as such???
Audrey, at least you can post here without the atheist masses contacting your employer and demanding your severence. You won’t even get multiple death threats from we non-believers. Your offspring won’t be harrassed by crazed Humanists either. You’ll never be condemned by the agnostic hirearchy – because there isn’t one.
What PZ did paled into quantum insignificance compared to the actions of your catholic chums afterwards. Go back and read through the archives on this site. See how proud you feel after reading a couple of the emails from the members of your religious organisation. Read about what they did in ‘defence’ of their naffing cracker – you’ll find much of it quite chilling. Sample a death threat or two by your christian buddies to PZ. Then get back to us.
I can’t express how happy this makes me. Usually the rich and powerful idiots can throw money at any little thing to endorse stupidity, but people on the side of intelligence seem to rarely have funds to give away like this. (Perhaps because we spend our time in pursuit of knowledge instead of oppressing people for our personal gain?)
This is a great precedent and I hope we can all use it as a model. In fact, I’m going to send some money to NCSE right now.
To the donor, Way cool dude.
To Audrey, before you make an even bigger fool I suggest you read the archives to actually see both what the fuss was all about and the oh so xian response from so many members of your church. The hate wasn’t coming from our side, however you try to dress up criticism as hate speech, though people like Donowhore sure enjoy the limelight and spreading lies in the attempt to ratchet up the hate against the student and PZ. I think you need to point the finger closer to home before you start accusing us of hatred.
@Audrey #95
I can try
Not really, no
I should have made this clearer previously, but I’m only and solely speaking for myself, and my interpretations of what PZ means from having read his blog for quite a long time. I don’t personally know PZ and have never met him so I wouldn’t presume talking for him. I apologize for not having made this clear in my previous post, which was very ambiguous on this point.
Zealotry is defined as the complete intolerance of opposite view. As I said previously, PZ isn’t so much anti religion as anti-stupidity, it just happens that a lot of stupidity is motivated by religion (especially as far as PZ’s domain — biology — is concerned).
The issue here is that since you haven’t deemed interesting to get any information on the subject, I have a hard time understanding how you can allow yourself to judge PZ when you have no idea what you’re talking about.
I fear I failed to understand what you’re asking here.
Why would it? You only have to not talk about your beliefs and keep them to yourself.
Of course, but that’s a bit different from shouting out your beliefs at every street corner and using these to shout down others.
I don’t think it was intended as a scientific experiment, merely as a simple demonstration that he would not be struck down by “god” or “allah” or “richard dawkins”.
I have a horrible tendency of being far too verbose, please forgive me for it.
Once again, I urge you to get more information about the cracker incident and what lead to it
Wikipedia’s Eucharist Controversy section of PZ’s article is probably a good start as it has a lot of links to relevant blog posts of the run-up to the event.
I’m sure that, after having read the various links provided by this section, you will have a much clearer view of what happened and why PZ did what he did.
Audrey (#88):
(a) As an act of protest against the treatment of Webster Cook.
(b) To illustrate an essay on the malign consequences of the concept of religious “sacredness” (note, for example, PZ’s deliberate evocation of the method by which medieval Jews were alleged to desecrate the host).
Audrey (#95):
So what is it then, according to your understanding? Please give details, and whatever justification you can for supposing your account to be true.
Thanks.
Ok I read the Wiki entry. Someone tried to take the Eucharist and do something other than what he ought to (as a professed Catholic ought to) do. The response was not that unusual. Priests are responsible for making sure the faithful do NOT desecrate consecrated hosts and wine – which we believe contain the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus. That they decided to exercise their 1st amendment rights and make sure that they could hold Mass in peace is not uncalled for in my book.
So Mr. Myers steps in and says “oh, let’s repeat it and show the whole world how trivial it is to do this (desecrate a host).” In some ways I say “how pedestrian.” Anyone can do that. And for what it’s worth, I’m not judging Mr. Myers but his ACTIONS which speak loudly. I don’t have a problem with people asking for him to be removed from his job because a) people are allowed to express thier opinions and b) the choice is up to his employers and if they’re smart they won’t respond and thus increase the whole drama of the event.
So to answer Iain, as a Catholic I believe that words spoken with authority have great effect. During the consecration of the bread and wine, they become Jesus as I said before. We believe that they retain the guise of bread and wine (and thank God because it would be hard to eat living flesh and blood). Justification: Jesus was either Lord, lunatic, or liar – I take him as Lord and scripture has his words saying that it is his body and blood. Second, there have been cases in history where the consecrated host lost it’s “guise” and in one case appeared to be beating heart flesh. I think that particular example is on display somewhere in Europe.
Most likely my justification is not enough because surely you’ve heard these before and are not convinced. So be it. I don’t hold that against you. Miracles are obviously a sticking point for materialists (ok, I don’t know if you’re all materialists but it’s a good assumption most are).
If there is anything I could have, it would be that Mr. Myers would not use his public platform to advertize overt disrespect and desecration of that which others hold holy. I’m not going to look but if he’s consistent, he’s posted the Muslim cartoons on his site, right? Look at the uproar over that. And images of Muhammad pale in comparison to something that is actually Jesus – so can you be surprised that people are hurt, disgusted, feel powerless, and express outrage and lash out?
Isn’t that just human nature? I’m not going to pretend that Christians are somehow magically better – that’s why they struggle thier whole lives as Christians to be better.
My point – I respect your difference of opinion. Please respect what I believe is my Lord.
Thanks for the discussion – A
Audrey, we respect your right for you to believe it is your lord.
However, we have a right to look at what is to an outsider to be an absurd belief and make fun of it. We mock the belief, not the believer.
You catholics keep asking for special respect for your beliefs that you don’t show others.
Nothing is sacred. Deal with it.
Audrey, I’m surprised you are not aware of the false dichotomy logical fallacy. In my book, anyone who propounds a logical fallacy as part of their argument automatically loses.
And you believe in magic too. I hope I never find myself in court with you as a juror, either as a defendant or as a juror myself. Your mind is too easily swayed for it to be of any use in an important rational situation.
Oh and bye the way, your use of the Tu Quoque fallacy holds no sway with we rationalists. Fatwa envy is sooooo passé nowadays.
Thank you for giving in so easily. Atheists 1 – christian 0.
Jesus was either Lord, lunatic, or liar – Audrey
Crap. There are at least three further possibilities: mistaken, misreported or mythical.
I might start respecting the Catholic Church when it stops shielding child rapists from justice, telling lies about condoms, killing women by denying them safe abortions, persecuting gays, preaching about the vanity of material things while remaining immensely wealthy. Until then, it is the enemy of humanity.
Audry you seem to have the events confused. Webster Cook did not desecrate the host in the sense you are insinuating. He took the host back to his seat to show his friend and was accosted by the Catholics there. Only after that did the leave the building with it. Hardly the intentional desecration you want to make it out to be.
The absurdity of this statement… well, so enormous it cannot be put into words.
1) Conspiracy, by definition, requires at least two people. A person cannot conspire with himself.
2) In certain states, hate crimes are a chargeable offense. Nothing PZ has done — at least that I know about — remotely resembles a hate crime.
2)(a) A “hate crime” is not a chargeable offense. “Hate” is essentially a sentencing enhancement for existing crimes, usually the “…and inflicts serious bodily harm” offenses, that are motivated by (for example) race. And/or color. And/or creed. And/or whatever the state chooses.
2)(b) You probably meant “hate speech.”
3) Laws prohibiting hate speech are unconstitutional.
From the FBI website: A hate crime, also known as a bias crime, is a criminal offense committed against a person, property, or society that is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, or ethnicity/national origin.
I have read of people who have taken a noose and placed it property owned by black people or have taken the Nazi symbol of the swastika and have placed it on the wall of a Jewish temple or school, being charged with a hate crime.
One would be hard pressed not to argue that a person who desecrates a religious artifact or article did not commit an act of hatred. If it isn’t a chargeable offense
it would seem to me that it smacks against freedom of religion. By that I mean religious people should have the right to practice their religon without fear of any action taken against their person or property. Property being, in this case, the Eucharist.
Nice to see someone giving money for teaching. Sounds like a nice thing to do for Xmas presents in some cases, like when we asked for donations in her name to charities in lieu of flowers when my spouse died last year. I have a little cash, nice idea to spend some in this way over the next few years.
Rev BDC, would love to talk to you about working local charities some here in Charleston SC. I am finally getting out of my shell and want to get involved. You will even get a free beer if you want to meet and discuss. (grin)
Ciao y’all – JeffreyD
JeffreyD,
I just popped in here for a moment before I walk out the door and saw your post. I’m delighted to hear that things are going so well for you and that you’re rebuilding and moving forward, and hope this means you’ll be back around here from time to time :). All the best.
Llurraa the mor
mon, in each case you mentioned the artifact was directed toward a structure used by the people who the perp was trying to intimidate. The cracker PZ desecrated never left his house, except in the garbage, so it was not directed toward the church per se. Using what was mentioned, PZ would have had to have left the cracker on the steps of a catholic church. So another lie by a godbot. Surprise.I don’t get why lots of Catholics are crying “hate crime”. For something to be a hate crime, it must actually be a crime. Scrawling a swastika on a Synagogue is vandalism. It is also most likely motivated by hatred. Hence, it is a hate crime.
Going to a Catholic mass and taking something that is freely given is not a crime. Neither is stabbing a cracker in the privacy of your own home and then blogging about it. There is no property damage, no physical injury, no nothing. The worst thing that should happen to Mr. Cook is expulsion from the Church in question. Death threats are so ridiculously out of line it’s laughable.
Going to a Catholic mass and taking something that is freely given is not a crime.
The times I have gone to a Catholic mass, it has been pointed out to me that there is an announcement in thier prayer books, on who may and under what conditions Catholic may take the Eucharist. Taking it for any purpose except for totally religion reason is simply not the intention of the Catholic Church.
All organizations religios and secular have their rules and regulations and common decency requires that we honor them. Just like only certain people are permitted to attend certain Mormon Rites, it would be disrespectful of us to intrude upon them.
Lluraa the mor
mon, common decency and respect for an organizations rules says that you must cease your godbotting at this site here and now. Go away, never to darken our posts with your godbotting.At the very least, put quotation marks around the parts of your post that you are quoting from someone else. That’s Remedial Message Board 101 right there.
People actually believe that C.S. Nonsense? Put two incredibly unfavourable options against an incredibly improbable option and suddenly the absurd is rationalised. Taking a false dichotomy to a trichotomy… ;)
Wait, are you saying that catholics wilfully partake in ritual cannibalism?!? Also, how do you know it’s Jesus. Can it be verified in double blind studies?
You do realise he desecrated a koran at the same time as the great cracker desecration of ’08 right? Got to love fatwa envy; it’s one step removed from using terrorism as a threat.
Holy Rootin’ Tootin’ Gluten, Batman – are we still going on about this?
You forgot the fourth “L” – Legend.
Technically true, Ksen, but the trilemma predates the deconstruction of history.
Look at the uproar over that. And images of Muhammad pale in comparison to something that is actually Jesus – so can you be surprised that people are hurt, disgusted, feel powerless, and express outrage and lash out?
So because the fanatical Muslims were angry, it’s ok for the fanatical Christians to get angry?
I don’t think you can justify actions that way.
Protection should not mean insulation from criticism. You are protected to practice your religion. Muslims are protected to practice Islam. I am protected to point out the failings of religion. PZ is protected to stab a cracker.
I have read of people who have taken a noose and placed it property owned by black people or have taken the Nazi symbol of the swastika and have placed it on the wall of a Jewish temple or school, being charged with a hate crime.
Surely you can see the difference in those acts. The noose is a clear threat, it invokes recent historical events of violence. It is a clear threat that the occupants of the house may be have physical harm brought upon them. The swastika is invoking an event where nine to eleven million people died.
Stabbing a cracker and a koran and the gold delusion does not invoke physical harm upon anyone. There is no proof that it is the body of Christ, and there is no requirement for anyone except a practising Catholic to treat it as such. That’s where the protection thing comes in. I am protected to not follow Catholic law.
@Audrey #104
Wait, you’re joking right? Webster Cook was physically assaulted because he wanted to show the cracker to a friend who also was in the church, he later got death threats over this, and you qualify that as not unusual, exercise [of] their 1st amendment rights and not uncalled for? And there I thought you were trying to understand the situation…
Fuck you, fundi godbot. Seriously.
@Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
From the various reports, agressed would be closer to the truth. And he was agressed before he reached his seat.
@Llurra
This doesn’t even make any sense.
Audrey (#104):
That’s unhelpfully ambiguous. Are we talking about rabble-rousing rhetoric, or magical spells?
If the former, I agree – and it’s a sad reflection on humanity that people are so easily swayed by non-rational means. If the latter, then perhaps you can explain the mechanism by which such words bring about the claimed effects. As an occasional role-player, I’m always on the look-out for a new rationale for a magic-system.
And in what meaningful sense do they “become” Jesus, while still retaining the “guise” of bread and wine? That was kind of what I was hoping you would explain, because the only accounts of transubstantiation that I’ve come across founder in logical incoherence once you subject them to analysis.
Setting aside the fact that the “lord, lunatic or liar” trichotomy is a classic example of the fallacy of the false dilemma, it would seem that your “justification” is a mere appeal to authority, coupled with an unsubstantiated assumption that the scriptural passage in question was not intended symbolically. Even less helpful is the fact that it fails to explain how the alleged transformation from wafer to deity is even possible (let alone what is meant by claiming that such a transformation takes place).
Perhaps I should have been clearer – I was asking you to explain your understanding of the doctrine of transubstantiation (i.e., the details of what is supposed to be going on during the process, the underlying assumptions, the reasoning behind it, etc), including a reasoned justification (i.e., as sound an argument as you can make) for supposing that the process described actually takes place.
Hmm. Like the stories PZ was commenting on when he wrote his desecration blog-post? The “Jews stab host and out comes the blood” stories? If you’re really prepared to put any credence in tales of this ilk, then you’re even more gullible than I thought. Do you also believe that there have been cases in history where Jews kidnapped Christian children and used their blood to flavour their Passover bread? Because those stories have exactly the same pedigree as “bleeding host” tales.
As for the “example” that you “think” is on display “somewhere” in Europe, vague hearsay doesn’t cut it as justification any more than blind appeals to authority. A reference or some specific details that we could actually check would have been more useful.
Not exactly easy, when you do such a dreadful job in justifying the claim that it actually is your Lord.
Please respect what I believe is my Lord.
*shrugs* Nobody is stopping you from worshiping baked goods, but don’t expect us to respect you for it or to hold our tongues about it here. I don’t expect you to condone my beliefs or lifestyle, I just expect you to let me be as long as I’m not hurting anyone. I’ll extend the same to you.
You have the right to believe in whatever you want, in that you have respect. What you don’t have is the expectations that your beliefs should be held above the rights of others. This is what no Catholic who has posted here seems to get… none of you care about religious freedom, you all just want your beliefs as held in as high regard by other people as you hold them. Such a notion that non-Catholics have to refrain from any action the church deems sacred is not respect; it’s submission.
Why aren’t the catholics being strongly critical of the priest who assaulted a real person: Webster Cook? Why aren’t they being critical of all those who sent death threats to the boy? Instead, why are they getting up in arms over a fracken cracker? It just shows how ass-backward these Catholics are; they care more about a piece of bread than the rights of a human. Absolutely pathetic.
I knew it wouldn’t take long, I just didn’t know the actual words that would be used. “Fundi godbot.” Classy.
If you recieve communion, you are supposed to eat it right away. Because there are always people who want to “kidnap” the host, ministers are very wary of those who do not treat the host as is expected. Not that you believe that either. But yes, it does happen.
And then the kid took it home. (I reiterate, it does happen). Classy.
Here’s the wiki entry for the host that became flesh and was tested by several scietific bodies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharistic_miracle
It has nothing to do with Jews stealing Catholic babies.
If you actually would for sake of argument step into the Catholic’s point of view, you’d see that it’s not a piece of bread, but something worth much more. So then you’d see how important it is to protect and that if someone was going to walk off with it they would need to be stopped. But yeah, I get it, you want to mock – it IS more fun, and you get to be as dastardly as you want because noone (and no church, sky-forbid) is holding you accountable for your actions. How freeing it must feel to curse and swear and tear down those morons who believe, such as myself. If nothing else, it’s really causing me to consider dumping my faith so I can be just like you.
I’m sorry for intruding. I’ll leave you to your previously peaceful posting.
Take care- A