It is finished.
I wonder how many of our Catholic friends have heard of the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215? This is the event where many of their important dogmas were codified, including the ideas of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, that the Eucharist was the sacrament that only properly ordained priests of the Catholic church could give, and that the Jews were a pariah people, who could hold no public office, had to pay a special Jew tax for their right to exist, and were required to wear special clothing to distinguish them from Christians. The yellow badge marking the Juden was not an invention of the Nazis, but a decree by faithful Catholics in the Middle Ages. That’s an interesting juxtaposition, that a symbol of Christian exceptionalism was formalized at the same time that they formally decreed the Jews to be inferior, and a target of hatred.
That combination was useful, too. Declare something cheap, disposable, and common to be imbued with magic by the words of a priest, and the trivial becomes a powerful token to inflame the mob — why, all you have to do is declare a bit of bread to be the most powerful and desirable object in the world, and even if it isn’t, you can pretend that the evil other is scheming to deprive the faithful of it. Now you could invent stories of Jews and witches taking the communion host to torture, to make Jesus suffer even more, and good Catholics would of course rise in horror to defend their salvation. None of the stories were true, of course — Jews and infidels see no power at all in those little crackers, and the idea that they were obsessing over obtaining a non-sacred, powerless, pointless relic is ludicrous — but heck, it’s a cheap excuse to make accusations illustrated by cheesy woodcuts of hook-nosed Jews hammering nails into communion wafers and lurid tales of blood-spurting crackers and hosts that pulsed like and beating heart, and thereby providing a pretext to encourage massacres.
The first recorded accusation was made in 1243 at Berlitz, near Berlin. As a consequence all the Jews of Berlitz were burned on the spot, which was subsequently called Judenberg. Another famous case that took place in 1290, in Paris, was commemorated in the Church of the Rue des Billettes and in a local confraternity. In 1370 in Brussels, the charge of host desecration, long celebrated in a special fest and depicted in artistic relics in the Church of St. Gudule, led to the extermination of the Jews of the city. The case of 1337, at Deggendorf, still celebrated locally as “Deggendorf Gnad”, led to a series of massacres across the region. In 1510, at Knoblauch, near Berlin, 38 Jews were executed and more expelled from Brandenburg. The alleged host desecration in 1410, at Segovia, was said to have brought about an earthquake, and as a result, the local synagogue was confiscated and leading Jews were executed; the event continues to be celebrated as a local feast of Corpus Christi. Similar accusations, resulting in extensive persecution of Jews, were brought forward in 1294, at Laa, Austria; 1298, at Röttingen, near Würzburg, and at Korneuburg, near Vienna; 1299, at Ratisbon; 1306, at St. Pölten; 1325, at Cracow; 1330, at Güstrow; 1338, at Pulkau; 1388, at Prague; 1399, at Posen; 1401, at Glogau; 1420, at Ems; 1453, at Breslau; 1478, at Passau; 1492, at Sternberg, in Mecklenburg-Schwerin; 1514, at Mittelberg, in Alsace; 1558, at Sochaczew, in Poland. The last Jew burned for stealing a host died in 1631, according to Jacques Basnage, quoting from Manasseh b. Israel. Casimir IV. of Poland (1447).
That is the true power of the cracker, this silly symbol of superstition. Fortunately, Catholicism has mellowed with age — the last time a Catholic nation rose up to slaughter its non-Christian citizenry was a whole 70 years ago, after all — but the sentiment still lingers. Catholicism has been actively poisoning the minds of its practitioners with the most amazing bullshit for years, and until recently, I had no idea that a significant number of people actually believed this nonsense, or that the hatred was still simmering there, waiting for an opportunity to rise up in misplaced defense of absurdity.
All of the regular readers have seen it — thousands of mindless comments by Catholics, demanding that no harm come to a cracker. My email is melting down with swarms of insults, threats, pleas, and promises of prayers because I
Mark Sutton is representative of the majority of my email. No threats, at least, but instead he simply takes for granted an astonishing piece of insanity.
Professor Myers,
I was saddened to hear of your plans to harm our Lord Jesus Christ.
It obviously isn’t the first time and it won’t be the last.
I know you do not believe, but what if it truly is Jesus that you are attempting to hurt?
You are in my prayers.
You would not believe how many people are writing to me, insisting that these horrible little crackers (they look like flattened bits of styrofoam) are literally pieces of their god, and that this omnipotent being who created the universe can actually be seriously harmed by some third-rate liberal intellectual at a third-rate university (the diminution of my vast powers is also a common theme).
Jim Nicholson cranks up the crazy even more. Not many accused me of being a freemason — I’ve got lots that call me a Jew, which is illuminating given the history of this issue — and I cringe at the thought of a circumcised heart. But yeah, this kind of angry rant is fairly common, too.
You must be the devil himself as even he knows the power in the Holy Eucharist (don’t you dare disparage the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by calling Him Who died for you a cracker!). You must be a freemason, or just a very sick man who needs healing and believe me, I will pray for your conversion. Pray you live to see that day so you can ask Him to forgive you and your uncircumcised heart. Just the mere thought of desecrating the Holy Eucharist is enough to get one into hell, but, maybe that is, for now, the horrible place you are aiming for. I dare you to read about Our Lady of Fatima and the accounts of hell as the three children saw, then, maybe you will change you sick mind. God forgive you. However, it was great that you got many people praying for your conversion since you showed the world how sick you are, and maybe God will convert your hard heart. Pity you. From a lay evangelist who prays for you and the rest of this sick world of secular humanists.
Another common theme has been the attempt to turn away the desecration of a Catholic symbol into the desecration of an Islamic symbol. Obviously, it’s not desecration they find disagreeable — it’s the idea that someone would offend their weird sectarian sensibilities. Here’s one from Jack Isaacks that fits the mold.
Dear Professor Meyers,
If you REALLY want to do a courageous, revolutionary act, defecate publicly on a copy of the Quran.
Or do you have the cojones?
Christians won’t attack you for desecrating a host, but will those wonderful cuddly peace-loving Muslims be as forbearing if you used their book for a toilet?
Well, how brave are you?
Yeah, right. Catholics won’t attack me, but Muslims will. Never mind that the Catholic League demands that I be fired, thousands of Catholics write to me demanding I be kicked out of the university immediately, and that they send me death threats, both the explicit kind and the vaguely menacing kind. Let’s not forget Webster Cook, who started this all by simply walking back to his seat with a cracker, and now faces censure and possible expulsion from his university. Oh, those Catholics sure are forbearing and tolerant.
And since I mentioned yesterday that I was taking my oldest son to the movies, these good Catholics have leapt to the opportunity. Since I’m not demonstrating any fear over their threats against me, well hey, let’s try a new target! KJ Atkins of Bellarmine University thinks cowardly warnings against my family might be effective.
You fool, the vengeance for your sacrilege will not be . exhausted against you, but it will be carried out on your child. Wait and see.
Oh, I’m sorry, KJ. I’m only impressed by significant material concerns, and yours and other slanders against my family (I’m looking at you, Miki Tracy, the despicable person who thinks making up lies about my father might be persuasive) are not going to convince me of anything other than that religion breeds the most disgustingly vile haters in our country, and that Catholicism fits right in with the rest. I will note, however, that since Bill Donohue tried to get CAIR to join him in his crusade, I have gotten no email from outraged Muslims, over a span of time in which I’ve received thousands of Catholic hate mail messages.
If you want to see the deep danger of religion, you have to read this comment from Isaac.
As a Christian it is an insult for anyone to call my beliefs stupid shit. I have respected every religion and every idea for years.
Ah, what a beautiful illustration of the complete open mind — utterly undiscriminating, lacking any criteria for acceptance, simply blissfully and uncritically according every idea his full respect. Although, of course, it’s also a lie: Isaac does not regard every idea as equally deserving, since he clearly considers the atheist idea that the sacraments of his faith are empty foolishness to be an outrage. Rather, what he loves is the idea that everyone else must respect his beliefs, no matter what they are, and that any disagreement is an insult. This is exactly the kind of uncritical, unskeptical, nonjudgmental idiocy all religions seek to promulgate, because they all know that if we tore off the blinders of tradition and artificiality and mindless etiquette, we’d see right through their lies. Respect every idea! Especially mine! And if you find the idea that this cracker is a god stupid, why, you must be disrespectful and no gentleman!
For even deeper inanity, let’s not forget the Catholic blogs! We’re talking some serious derangement there: look at Mark Shea’s reaction.
I won’t mince words. Myers is an evil man. And as evil men, particularly evil intellectuals, tend to be, he is also a mad man as are most of his acolytes and followers.
Myers and Co. are enmeshed in these lies because they have chosen evil. It is evil–archetypally evil–to desecrate the Eucharist. It’s the sort of stuff archetypal bad guys in the movies do. It’s completely unnecessary gratuitous evil.
To the Mark Shea’s of the world, I would say…it’s just a cracker.
I think if I were truly evil, I would have to demand that all of my acolytes be celibate, but would turn a blind eye to any sexual depravities they might commit. If I wanted to be an evil hypocrite, I’d drape myself in expensive jeweled robes and live in an ornate palace while telling all my followers that poverty is a virtue. If I wanted to commit world-class evil, I’d undermine efforts at family planning by the poor, especially if I could simultaneously enable the spread of deadly diseases. And if I wanted to be so evil that I would commit a devastating crime against the whole of the human race, twisting the minds of children into ignorance and hatred, I would be promoting the indoctrination of religion in children’s upbringing, and fomenting hatred against anyone who dared speak out in defiance.
I’m sorry to say that I only aspire to be a teeny-tiny bit evil, and my target is a handful of virtually inedible crackers in my possession. It’s not much, and all I can say in my defense is…it’s a start. A very small start. I’m going to need lots and lots of people to rise up and follow suit, subjecting old, dishonest institutions of hardened dogma to our chief weapon of ridicule and deris…our two weapons of ridicule, derision and laughter…no, three weapons of ridicule, derision, laughter, and skeptici…oh, never mind. You know what I mean. Get to work.
OK, time for the anticlimax. I know some of you have proposed intricate plans for how to do horrible things to these crackers, but I repeat…it’s just a cracker. I wasn’t going to make any major investment of time, money, or effort in treating these dabs of unpleasantness as they deserve, because all they deserve is casual disposal. However, inspired by an old woodcut of Jews stabbing the host, I thought of a simple, quick thing to do: I pierced it with a rusty nail (I hope Jesus’s tetanus shots are up to date). And then I simply threw it in the trash, followed by the classic, decorative items of trash cans everywhere, old coffeegrounds and a banana peel. My apologies to those who hoped for more, but the worst I can do is show my unconcerned contempt.
By the way, I didn’t want to single out just the cracker, so I nailed it to a few ripped-out pages from the Qur’an and The God Delusion. They are just paper. Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanity’s knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality. You will not find wisdom in rituals and sacraments and dogma, which build only self-satisfied ignorance, but you can find truth by looking at your world with fresh eyes and a questioning mind.
Professor Myers, I was saddened to hear of your plans to harm our Lord Jesus Christ. It obviously isn’t the first time and it won’t be the last. I know you do not believe, but what if it truly is Jesus that you are attempting to hurt? You are in my prayers.
Sounds like a nice reasonable person, except for the unfortunate fact he’s batshit crazy.
I used to be a Catholic but I don’t think I was ever that brainwashed.
Apparently PZ received thousands of emails like this. The Catholic religion really is a disease. There’s something seriously wrong with these people. They seem to be permanently trapped in an idiotic fantasy world with no hope of escape.
No dave, that simply isn’t how it works. But keep hoping. Maybe you should say a prayer? That always gets results.
#1983
dave,
I don not consider you an authority of free speech. Nor do I have reason to think you skillful at divination or familiar with the concept of tenure.
Tenure? tenure…it doesn’t mean squat, Watch and learn
Brilliantly executed, PZ. Your actions and attitude give me warm fuzzy feelings of happiness inside, especially the lack of giving this more importance than what it’s worth. At the risk of sounding creepy: My admiration for you just keeps growing. You’re definitely an inspiration and a role model.
“PZ,you should eat your bananas before they turn brown.”
Before they turn completely brown? Probably. Before they turn speckled? Nah, the only thing that happens is that they get sweeter. If it turns very brown but hasn’t gone bad yet it’s going to be extremely sweet. Great in banana cakes as you can use less sugar, if any. :-D
#1961 I read it when it first happened — i couldn’t remember if he was Catholic or not – he was with someone who might not have been Catholic, I guess. His actions are not that of a properly catechized Catholic – the Host is not supposed to be a part of some show and tell. If he believes it is Christ and he held Christ hostage, that is bad. If he doesn’t believe it is Jesus, then he is not in fact ‘Catholic’. It is not enough to be baptized a Catholic, one must hold to the beliefs to remain in the Body of Christ. Not believing in transubstantiation is tantamount to not being Catholic.
Anyway, if he is Catholic, I stand corrected. But his actions in holding a Host hostage are beyond rational. And very provocative. And this professor showing such disrespect to Catholics is very hurtful to see. And for what?
Speak for yourself. I study science and engineering at one of asia’s premier technology universities. There are many religious people among the faculty and students but there are also many students who applaud the rationality and logic with which Prof Myers has displayed in promoting critical thinking and disman.
Please remember that one of the jobs of a professor is teaching the scientific method and critical thinking. If more professors here were like prof myers, my university can only be a better place.
Posted by: bob smith | July 25, 2008 1:40 AM
Someone is getting their tactics in argumentation straight from the Bill O’Reilly handbook…
Asserting proven falsehoods and adding the caveat that we all know them to be true, despite multiple examples of disagreement and refutation, will get you nothing more than ridicule and derision – all of it quite deserved.
No dave, that simply isn’t how it works. But keep hoping. Maybe you should say a prayer? That always gets results.
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 2:00 AM
Oh..Idealist, that’s exactly how it works
Wow, to think that an internet blog can rattle the foundations of the almighty Roman Catholic Church. All it takes is a punch in the soft underbelly of the dragon.
Bill Donohue, give it up, the entire rotten structure of your organization is starting to crumble. Reason is your number one enemy.
BobC,
You did it, ya fuckin’ nut-job! Hooray for you!
dave, get over yourself and your batshit crazy co-cultists. You can’t do shit to Professor Myers, and, even if, somehow, you did, all it would prove is that you haven’t really changed at all since the bloodthirsty, murdering savages you were in the 1200s.
RTFA.
I am going to head off to bed.
If I can pull myself away from the CRACK-ergate, that is. The morbid stupidity flowing from the catholics has kept me reading for hours on end. I must pull away.
I go to bed trying to convince myself that not all catholics are as immoral and batshit crazy as the ones who have posted here. What’s sad is, the ones who are not batshit crazy will be considered *fake* catholics by these nuttards. I fear there may be more nuttards than the non-crazy ones.
TG,
Exactly how does being either a PhD or a Catholic preclude you from being a huffer of furniture polish?
You write things like ‘Jesus knew what PZ was going to do 2000 years before he did it’ and you’re going to get doubts cast upon your mental state – artificially induced or otherwise.
Guess not Cheerful…
I’m just wondering whether there’s going to be a mass movement of Catholics who refuse to eat beef – Cows are sacred to hinus after all. If it’s good for the goose…
CW, what is THE CHURCH’s official stance on homosexuality? What about abortion? Are you so foolish as to assume that you are a part of a religion that doesn’t have a central authority that is decreed infallible? What some few individuals, or even a great majority believe makes not a wit of difference in terms of what catholics are dictated to as truth.
What their holy book proclaims, and what their central figures decree is what “the church” believes. Period. And don’t get pissy with me about it. I didn’t make such asinine rules.
CW,
There are gay catholics and pro-choice catholics. You strike me as another oblivious, one-dimensional pseudo-skeptic who’s only rubbed shoulders with the lunatics of one particular religion, and you never bother to think beyond the impression they gave you.
So… the pope and the Catholic church leadership are lunatics?
I see we can agree on something.
So, in other words, all you’re saying is “boo!”
Dave? Maybe it would help if you looked up what does and does not constitute protected speech.
Then, print it out, and, along with a fistful of sand, shove it squarely up your backside. Your threats really are quite freakin’ comical.
Posted by: Capital Dan | July 25, 2008 1:58 AM
No Actually I’m laughing at you’re inexperience of how this world works. It’s not my threat…it just is what it is.
Haha really, why does anyone care what a minor professor and an unheard-of university says about religion? You guys are pathetic… and your unscientific garbage that you coat with a scientific effervesence is truly ridiculous.
Realize that what you say, your ‘nothing is sacred’ view, doesn’t matter at all. You, and everyone else here, including me, is a nobody. The fact that you can be rude, disrespectful, and incoherent only shows that you are, in fact, a moron. It doesn’t convince anyone, but then it’s obvious that’s not what you guys want. You just want to be able to demean a large group of people, because it makes you feel powerful and smart. I hope you can deal with the power-issues that make you do this, because until then, you will continue to look like an ass to everyone except yourself.
Get a LIFE.
Why should I tolerate insipid stupidity?
Again with the fatuous egocentricity: if someone doesn’t agree with you, they aren’t thinking for themselves. And stop repeating the “irrational bigot” schtick. It’s annoying.
@Dave
Just a hypothetical question – say that PZ is still happily enjoying his tenure and blogging steadfastly this time next year…
… will that crush you? Destroy your self-delusion in a wrathful, vengeful, trigger-happy invisible father-figure that somehow can also express infinite love, especially for you?
Could you please come back next year and describe it to us? In detail?
Idealist? No dave, it’s actually written down… It’s how universities work.
You’re kinda scary in an impotent and creepy sorta way…
Bob Smith (2004)
“But his actions in holding a Host hostage are beyond irrational.”
And with that I am off to bed. Nite all.
Company time?
He represents the college?
dave obviously hasn’t a fucking clue what a university is.
“A wedding band, tombstone, children, etc. are important and/or sentimental. So is a cracker, but in this case, some people worship the cracker, holding it sacred. Mind you, this is a violation of the prohibition against idolatry, but Catholics aren’t been so good at that anyway.”
If PZ stumbled up to your wive’s grave site (say), threw his garbage on it, and posted it online for all to see because, after all, it’s “just a piece of earth” and “nothing must be sacred” I hesitate to believe that you’d calmly nod in approval and walk away.
Stop invoking meaningless semantics to justify something most rational and sane people (=people distinct from the tiny circle of atheist fanatics on this blog) would decidedly categorize as bigotry. You’re INSANE.
Come back when you’re ready to wake up and acknowledge the obvious anthropological fact that not everything is “just a” material object, and that humans place value on things for different reasons.
“M-m-mengeance ith mine; I m-mill mepay,” saith a toothless, mumbling Lord in whose word his supposed believers seem to place little or no faith.
Bravo to you PZ!
AndrewG said:
Man, I hope someone leaks the text of that entreaty.
“Dear Honored Mullah and esteemed Prophet of Allah, may He bless your camels,
It’s been a while since I’ve written, but I just wanted to say sorry about that whole Muhammed Teddy Bear thing. And the Muhammed cartoon thing. And those 2nd, 3rd, and 6th Crusades…
Anyway, just wanted to ask a quick favor, all my friends are declaring Holy Jihad on the unbeliever PZ Myers, and we wanted to invite you along. Hope to see you there!
Love,
your pal Bill Donoghue
PS, you know we were just kidding with all that mean stuff we said about nuking you all after 911.”
“Er, Joe – your ‘believers’ have likened this to rape, kidnapping and murder and have threatened violence of a similar level to people for doing it. ”
Please. Do you see Catholics rioting? Do you see buildings burning? Has one person been physically harmed over the incident? You have found some quote by someone on the internet in an emotional state and ascribed it to all Catholics. Atheists absolutely hate it when they are broad-brushed in some categorical way, and all I have seen on this board is an absolute broad-brushing of any Christian – Catholic or otherwise. That is truly hypocritical. For the record, any threats of physical harm are NOT appropriate, and utterly wrong. Emotional overreaction and stupid statements are unfortunately human. Christians are sinners as well as everyone else, and fall well short of where we need to be on the scale of kindness and goodness much of the time. Guilty as charged. Threats are not to be defended. That said, your overgeneralization of the universal application of how “Christians” react is absurd.
“Do you honestly consider this kid’s stupid stunt – whatever his motivations were – to be every bit as insane as wanting to physically harm or kill a person?”
No. And I’m quite certain that if you had honest discussions with 99.999% of Christians in venues other than anonymous bulletin boards, you would find that the zeal for bloodshed is quite lacking in the general Christian and Catholic communities. I’ve made it my whole life and have managed to refrain from killing the heretics around me.
“If you do, Joe, then you’re exactly the sort of person who PZ’s actions are intended to reveal.”
This is a red herring. His actions weren’t intendEr, Joe – your ‘believers’ have likened this to rape, kidnapping and murder and have threatened violence of a similar level to people for doing it.
Do you honestly consider this kid’s stupid stunt – whatever his motivations were – to be every bit as insane as wanting to physically harm or kill a person?
If you do, Joe, then you’re exactly the sort of person who PZ’s actions are intended to reveal.
No, you’re wrong. This was and is intended to simply be a mockery of what Catholics believe, using the excuse of protest based on some kid who is whining about physical abuse from some lady who grabbed his arm. I mean, really…
“No doubt you consider atheists bereft of morals.”
You see, now I never said that, did I? You have put words in my mouth. The actions of the atheists in these responses who are so quick to call any Christian an “ass” and eschew any sense of civility could easily lead me to believe this, but I happen to know enough atheists, and in fact are friends with some atheists, have an Uncle whom I love and is an atheist, and therefore do not believe all are bereft of morals. Now, I disagree with their views, and I believe that sense of morality has its origin in God. But I believe we are all made in God’s image, and even if an atheist refuses to acknowledge or accept it, God’s goodness can be very evident in an atheist. Thus, all people – atheists or not – should be treated with dignity and respect, even in disagreement. That is far different, however, than condoning despicable actions intended to harm. Desecrating the Eucharist cannot be condoned in any way by a Catholic, and it is insulting and is not using the dignity with which the person was bestowed.
Yeah dave, because you are the only one who wasn’t born yesterday. Oh great wise one, tell us young’ns how the world really works.
Bob Smith wrote:
Well, we agree on something there, Bob. That anyone would consider that a cracker can be held hostage is indeed irrational.
Because he’d like to inform/remind the world that, despite it being 2008, people can still not only hold relics of an outdated bronze-age superstition sacred, but hold these objects in greater esteem than human life and well-being.
BobC, You did it, ya fuckin’ nut-job! Hooray for you! Posted by: The Cheerful Nihilist
Yeah, I noticed I scored the 2,000th comment. I was surprised because I didn’t realize there were that many comments already.
PZ, you’re a thief. Holy communion is for the faithful, to be consumed immediately.
If you ever develop a conscience, the sin you committed requires papal absolution… or you can take your chances with God.
Further, if you actually knew anything about Catholic theology, you’d realize that the theologians agree all you’d find are the physical nature of bread. (What are called “accidents”, as opposed to the essence, which is what is changed.)
How shallow your life must be, needing to destroy others faiths for your own pleasure. Realize as well, you are preaching a religion: Sceince-exclusive rationalism.
@Dave
Just a hypothetical question – say that PZ is still happily enjoying his tenure and blogging steadfastly this time next year…
… will that crush you? Destroy your self-delusion in a wrathful, vengeful, trigger-happy invisible father-figure that somehow can also express infinite love, especially for you?
Could you please come back next year and describe it to us? In detail?
I don’t even have to worry about it, but if it does, I will surely be here and I’ll admit my error. As long as when PZ is gone you all come back and do the same. Heck- You will be just fine Charlie, you come back. Oh…young lads of the world, how disappointed and crushed you will all be to learn the way things work.
Did anyone else laugh at the irony of this comment?
“I am not even convinced that he should lose his job over this.”
How generous, you complete tool.
Why are some of the idiots on here insisting on using improper analogies to the cracker.
Take CW’s here, about dumping garbage on your wife’s grave because “it’s just earth”.
NO IT ISN’T “JUST EARTH”. There’s a SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE between a grave and a cracker. If you can’t see that, you’re either stupid or ignorant.
The difference:
My wife’s grave demonstrably has the body of my wife buried under the earth. It is demonstrably more than “just earth”.
The cracker, by *any system of measurement available to humans, religious or otherwise” can not be demonstrated to be anything other than a cracker.
This is where all of these analogies have fallen down. Everything anyone has compared the cracker desecration to, such as stealing hair from a corpse, burning a book made of the skin and flesh of a loved one (eww) or dumping garbage on a grave… they are all demonstrably more than they are (it’s more than “just hair”, it’s more than “just a book”, it’s more than “just some earth”). The Cracker is *nothing* more than “just a cracker”.
Just accept that. Your belief makes no difference to what something actually is.
The Blessed Mother once showed the children at Fatima in Portugal when she was appearing there that souls were falling into hell like snowflakes. I often wondered, wow, are there that many evil people in the world? I guess now I know… May God have mercy on your souls. Many of us are praying for all of you (even though you may laugh at this).
You do a flawless parody of yourself, dave.
PZ is an uncaring bastard and an irrational bigot. Plain and simple. If you approve of what he did, regardless of your religious beliefs or lack thereof, there is something fundamentally wrong with you.
The Blessed Mother once showed the children at Fatima in Portugal when she was appearing there that souls were falling into hell like snowflakes. I often wondered, wow, are there that many evil people in the world? I guess now I know… May God have mercy on your souls. Many of us are praying for all of you (even though you may laugh at this).
It’s not semantics CW. Sacred doesn’t mean what you think it means. You’re simply abusing english to express you’re outrage. Value judgements remain intact despite PZ nailing a cracker. And the basis of which we give things value does not hold in favor of the importance your church has placed on a cracker. Mumbled over or not. The whole issue here is that because of your unevidenced religious beliefs, you have placed undue value upon a cracker.
In short, you suffer from a delusion.
Karla,
I will reason for you. You will be in my reasonings (even though you may smile at this.)
@ Devin #2018 (Jesus Coffee Grounds, I’ve never seen it reach that high on this site)
Devin is obviously the “apathetic/Youtube random commenter-troll”
He isn’t worthy of being responding to, that is other than mockery.
Shorter Devin, as he types feverishly with anger in his parent’s basement in the ultimate gesture of projection:
“Oh, Yeah, well Catholics are stupid, but you’re just trying to get FAMOUS. Ergo, you suck!”
Fuck off, troll. Go find a Star Wars vs. Harry Potter board to flame.
Peace,
Nick
Phew. Now you can start blogging about science again.
One thing that is critical to remember is PZ’s discussion of whole towns wiped out, dozens (perhaps hundreds) killed because of a rumor they might have “desecrated” (whatever that means) a “Host” (whatever that means).
The modern day Catholics posting on this thread are most upset that they can’t do stuff like that any more.
Oh fuck off.
Wow, some sick fuck keeps trying to post PZ Myers’ home address and lots of info about his kids on his Wikipedia page.
In the last two minutes, though, it looks like the page has been deleted, the info purged from the archives, the sick fuck banned, and the page reinstated without his home address. Those Wiki folks work fast.
Something tells me that this saga is really just beginning…
It’s all fun and games until the cracker sprouts limbs and desecrates your mayonnaise.
I was hoping that PZ would include a copy of the Origin of Species or something similar. I’m happy to see The God Delusion so abused; this sent exactly the right message.
I consider myself an atheist of limited social sophistication who is sometimes rude and apologetic, and sometimes rude and unapologetic. In this case, I’m not sure how to be. I regret that some people seem to be genuinely hurt by what PZ has done. I regret even more that their delusions have made them so fragile that pitching a host in the garbage causes such despair. If the unfortunate fate of this cracker affects them so deeply, I cannot imagine the agony that poverty, disease, genocide and torture must inflict.
woops, digg this one instead:
http://digg.com/general_sciences/Pharyngula_The_Great_Desecration#
Just need a few more for it to become popular and hit front page.
#2028 No Actually I’m laughing at you’re inexperience of how this world works. It’s not my threat…it just is what it is.
Yeah dave, because you are the only one who wasn’t born yesterday. Oh great wise one, tell us young’ns how the world really works.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 2:13 AM
watch and see! and how many years have you been on this earth? Twenty? twenty-five? what’s that? only 5-10 more than when you where 15yrs. You see, I once also believed in the old college rebellious “the way we want the world to be” but as you are all going to see, it’s all about what the college can bring in (cash). I’m not bitter, I’ve just become a realist. PZ- you have spent too much time in the academics, the real world doesn’t have these tolerances.
CW at #2038:
Ding, ding! False witness, maybe you should go for all 10?
You are like a whiny little child. Keep repeating the same schtick, that’ll make it come true. Serious, how is PZ uncaring? irrational? a bigot?
Guys, I forget — which godbotting troll was it who was spamming earlier threads with his taunts that PZ would never actually do it because deep down he really believes and was afraid of the consequences? And have we heard from said douchebag recently?
Is there any rule against all of us changing our posting name to Sandi?
For those who think this was an isolated incident, something very similar happened in Germany in January 2007. The story: A man, Thomas R., lapsed Protestant, pockets the Eucharist at the mass. He entered the church in curiosity at the ritual taking place, and gets in the line to see what it’s about. He’s handed the wafer, bites off a bit, finds it tasteless and pockets the rest to examine later, as he said. On the way back, two women who had been watching block his path and demand to know where he put the wafer. He explains that he pocketed it, and they respond by lecturing him that it was a sin and that God will punish him for it. He responds that his God certainly would not do so. The women get physical and try to search his pockets for the wafer. Someone makes the deacon aware of what’s going on. The deacon, a tall and allegedly physically strong man, joins the women and allegedly takes hold of the man’s arm. He tries to shake the holding and searching hands off, and more faithful join in. The deacon takes the man into a police armlock and with combined effort wrestle him to the ground, where they allegedly search and empty most of his pockets, painfully holding him down. To escape, the man claims to have eaten the wafer and they let him go. He reports to the nearest police station and then goes to a hospital where he’s diagnosed with bruises, abrasions and a swelling of his ankle (assertedly someone stepped on it in the ‘fight’).
The punchline: the public prosecution department (as required) files a lawsuit against Thomas R. for theft and disturbing the free practice of religion, punishable with up to three years in prison. The deacon regrets his physical action, but asserts that he’d let himself be killed to protect the Host.
http://tinyurl.com/5v2kjt
All charges against both parties have been dropped because of contradictory allegations and no evidential (theft) or considerable (injury) damage.
Interestingly, Catholic media reporting the incident second-hand largely omitted the part of the original report where it speaks of the armlock and the wrestling to the floor. They call Thomas R. a thief outrightly, assuming he acted on malice, intent on committing a theft (without evidence). They also imply that he got a false diagnosis at the hospital (without evidence), by cleverly twisting the grammar of the original report to imply he demanded a specific diagnosis.
Comments on the Catholic site which misrepresented the incident (kath.net): – the desecrator should have been knocked down with a heavy candlestick to the head
– they should have kneed him you-know-where
– they used to beat the living daylights out of thieves like this one
– he’s probably a Satanist
– try something like that in a mosque or a synagogue…
– dismissing the case is due to the liberal conspiration in the prosecution (Freemasons I tellz ya!)
Really, the novelty value of discovering more and more liars for Jesus is wearing off. The same deception, the same lies, the same passive-aggressive mindset, the same desire that violence be committed by others, the same fatwa envy, the same false equivocations.
Yes, dave, we get that this is your opinion. But as only time will tell, your repeated claims only make you tiresome.
“they are all demonstrably more than they are (it’s more than “just hair”, it’s more than “just a book”, it’s more than “just some earth”).”
Boy would you make a good catholic.
You’ve missed the point, dipshit. These things are valuable *to you*. But what does the man who burns his dead care about your wife’s grave site?
You’ve got your shit. Catholics have theirs. Grow up and show some fucking tolerance. It’s a religion; it’s bound to have assholes. But that doesn’t mean we should go out and bash the whole thing. Come back when you’re ready to stop blindly cheering on bigotry.
No no no, it doesn’t work that way because the grave is not his property. A more fitting analogy would be if PZ had been given a microgram or picogram of your wife’s ashes (keep in mind how many communion wafers go through the churches, even just on an annual basis), and he then would have chucked it into the trash because “nothing’s sacred”.
You’re aware of that even earth you walk on in a park is the result of pretty fascinating lives of critters, plants, trees, geological processes etc? I don’t see why people need fictional miracles and magic when everything in our lives is truly awe-inspiring. We even live on a small ball of dirt swishing through space at great speed, orbiting a big ball of plasma. Even the fact that _you_ exist took a great deal of circumstance. Life itself is amazing and impressive, never forget that. Just because you’re too used to your life and world doesn’t mean it isn’t infinitely more fantastic than what you give it credit for.
Joe,
I wrote what I wrote because you said what PZ did to be ‘as insane’ as the reactions of Catholics to what he did.
Describing what PZ did as ‘insane’ is ridiculous. What he did can be argued to be rude, insulting, offensive, nasty, mean – cruel, even – but it’s far from ‘insane’. He has caused actual physical harm to no-one; he has caused upset to a very small minority of one sect of Christianity.
I say ‘very small minority’ because the majority of the catholics in the world are ignoring him – it’s only a frenzied few who are jumping up and down about it. And it’s the reaction of those extremist few that PZ’s actions were intended to highlight. More than one catholic has posted on his site to say just that.
I suspect one of his goals was to get catholics to prove they’re capable of extremism – and he’s done just that.
Or Ed?
HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS
#2039 Posted by: Karla | July 25, 2008 2:19 AM
Just to put this in perspective, when once-upon-a-time I did consider myself religious, my belief system was that all Catholics were going to Hell. I believed this because of the prohibitions against idolatry, and worshiping three gods-in-one rather than the one true God, “I AM.”
Are you absolutely sure your version of Faith is correct? Because, for a time, I was. But I’d never presume to tell God what to do and ask Him to forgive you – that was up to Him.
But if you think you have power over your god and can bend him to your will, you just keep on asking him to have mercy on our souls, despite his clear description of the fates we have already secured. It will have just as much effect as any other prayer (even those asking we be damned to Hell). It will even have exactly as much effect as doing nothing at all, as far as our souls are concerned. I think most of us will admit to not having souls to be concerned for.
JBS
“But his actions in holding a Host hostage are beyond rational” – by this I mean he acted unreasonably when asked to return the Host, and as such does not deserve to be a Senator.
And on the theme of the professor’s attempt to mock only Catholics and not really hit at Muslims or atheists, he began this blog with ‘it is finished’, the last words of Christ as he hung nailed to the cross. He nailed the Host in mockery, and wrote, ‘it is finished’ in total total mockery of Catholics, and the last words of Jesus.
Actually, I think this professor is just a sick, sick man, filled with nothing but hate. No, he does not live by the golden rule.
An insight into the Catholic mind (such as it is) that explains many of the god-bopping b.s. on this thread:
“From the most foul well of indifferentism flows that absurd and erroneous opinion, or rather delirium, of liberty of conscience.”
— Gregory XVI, Encyclical, “Mirari Vos” (1832)
Don’t you believers see– you are just as riotously funny and out of place as if Scientologists were claiming religious discrimination because of “Anonymous” or Mormons were exclaiming because PZ decided to desecrate their magic underwear. You are embarrassing your beliefs in the same way. Your idle threats and off topic blathering is on par with exactly the kind of stuff they would say.
Trust your magic man to fight his own battles–why the threats and vague implication of “bad things happening”… eh? Don’t you trust your benevolent wise man to fight his own battles? And the bible does tell you to pray in the closet. If you don’t want us mocking you, keep your beliefs as private as you keep your fetishes… and allow us to disrespect your nuttery as you allow yourself to disrespect Scientology or Mormonism.
Free speech is not just for those who agree with you.
“Serious, how is PZ uncaring? irrational? a bigot?”
Stop crying and see above.
You haven’t become a realist, you just don’t have a very good understanding of how tenures work. You need a solid reason for dismissal, then you need unanimous board approval. The board is made up of almost exclusively PZ’s colleagues in the University, other faculty. You see how no one is worried that he lose his job?
CW, the only assholes being mocked are the ones who believe a cracker is sacred and are threatening others over its “sacredness”.
If you’re not one of those assholes, why are you defending them?
“Hogwash. There are gay catholics and pro-choice catholics. You strike me as another oblivious, one-dimensional pseudo-skeptic who’s only rubbed shoulders with the lunatics of one particular religion, and you never bother to think beyond the impression they gave you. So therefore the WHOLE religion is a danger to you. Right. Poor you. You can’t go out at night because evil catholic vampires with chainsaws will hunt you down and inquire into your sex life. Yeah, it’s really that dangerous.
Posted by: CW”
Kudos for the mockery and sarcasm. There’s a small problem though…
I am someone you insultingly said (despite my never insulting you) “who’s only rubbed shoulders with the lunatics of one particular religion”. If by “lunatics” you mean “the people in charge” and “the official stance of the Catholic church”, then you may be right.
For someone who isn’t Catholic (see? I read your comments) you are trying very hard to paint the Vatican and the Catholic leadership as the lunatic fringe of the religion. Yes, there are people within the religion who disagree with certain tenets, but they’re not the ones with the power in the organization. They’re not the ones grabbing newspaper headlines. How many of them did we hear from when California legalized same-sex marriage? They’re definitely not the ones exerting influence in such things as the fight against AIDS worldwide.
But you can’t actually think things through before you speak because you’re too busy keeping your imaginary moral high horse intact. The fact that you have to diminish the influence Catholic leadership in the Catholic church to help you show what a true individual you are is really quite pathetic.
The deeply disturbed Ray wrote:
look up Federal anti-discrimination policy. PZ Myers tossing the Holy Eucharist into a garbage can is absolutely comparable to an ethnic hate crime; even more so since it is blasphemy and disrespect toward OUR LORD AND SAVIOR
looking up… yer doin it wrong…
“A more fitting analogy would be if PZ had been given a microgram or picogram of your wife’s ashes”
And then threw garbage on it and posted it on the net? That’s supposed to be more appropriate? The point is the same, einstein.
People value things. Deal with it.
Devin, it is Catholics who are throwing a fit over a magic cracker, and not even a tasty one. Not even a townhouse cracker, or one with some tasty beer cheese, but a flat little magic wafer of a tiny bit of starch.
You see, it isn’t science at stake here, but basic rational thought.
It is not rational to throw a fit over a cracker.
We are making fun of this lack of rational capacity. So sorry you and your medieval superstitions are so easily bruised.
Maybe PZ’s got another job lined up anyhow – isn’t the Simonyi job opening up soon?
Oh…young lads of the world, how disappointed and crushed you will all be to learn the way things work.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 2:19 AM
You do a flawless parody of yourself, dave.
If anyone is the parody it’s all of you. So full of life, so full of ideals in college, looking to change the world-just like the sixties hey? guess what -Old PZ is giving you a life lesson that you aren’t going to learn in college. Unfortunately, it will be at the expense of himself. Rather the unfortunate part is that this knucklehead did it when he has a family to take care of, I want you to all watch how a man lets his ego get ahead of his responsibilities to his wife and child.
Hey, maybe next you can go find the kid who beat you up in the third grade and dookie on his laptop or something.
CW, we’ve buried your lame analogies thousands of comments ago. You were better off repeating yourself.
Hah. I messed up the blockquoting there, huh? It’s still readable though.
In that case, yes, any outrage *would* be rather silly. Because it’s just earth. Nothing more.
I’d be pretty outraged. Littering isn’t good. ;-)
Assuming by “garbage” you mean non-compost items, i.e. standard unrecycled household trash.
Yep, this is just beginning.
Keeping with the theme that “nothing is sacred”
Paul & Mary Myers
300 College Ave
Morris, MN 56267
Oldest Son Alaric Myers, graduated from St. Cloud 9/07
Middle Son Connlann Myers
Daughter Skatje Myers Attending UMM
Data gleaned from public tax records and his own vanity web page.
http://homepage.mac.com/myers/
Michael X @2021, lol – yes Dave is creepy, but much more unintentionally funny than scary – and a world class fucking moron who doesn’t have a clue how the world or universities work!
I’ve known shitbags like him in the “real world” for more than 30 years, and they’re just that – creepy shitbags!
Yep, this is just beginning.
Keeping with the theme that “nothing is sacred”
Paul & Mary Myers
300 College Ave
Morris, MN 56267
Oldest Son Alaric Myers, graduated from St. Cloud 9/07
Middle Son Connlann Myers
Daughter Skatje Myers Attending UMM
Data gleaned from public tax records and his own vanity web page.
http://homepage.mac.com/myers/
Something tells me dave is a bit bitter about college, perhaps he flunked out back in the day. It would explain his persistent failure to write legibly.
CW, time to take the meds… go with the nice men in the white coats
@dave
Mate – you must be one cantankerous old fart to be calling me ‘lad’.
I’m very happy that the world is rapidly changing from the one that made you so cynical, and my kids are seeing a civilisation much less rooted in ancient mystical beliefs. They will be able to enjoy the universe without a veneer of magic and dogma blurring all the good bits.
Not that I do think that PZ’s job is at any risk, but if it was, I assure you that there are enough young-un’s who value a good educator – even if he lives in another country from us – to drown out any number of you decomposing dogmatics.
I’m hesitant to poke my nose into this, but I can’t get to sleep (I’m working this summer at a Starbucks and I downed too much of the leftover frap before closing tonight).
To answer CW: I don’t think that you can call PZ a bigot. being religious is like being a Democrat, or being a Libertarian, or being *shudder* a New Age pinhead – you have chosen to believe in a bunch of ideas. It isn’t like being black, or being Canadian, or being short… which are things that you cannot choose.
It is very dangerous when a bunch of ideas can be set aside as special and “sacred” and off-limits to criticism. Dogmatic belief is what PZ is attacking here. Unfortunately, attacking dogma often causes offense. If it didn’t, well, then it wouldn’t be dogma.
You have every right to be offended. Just as religious (and political) dogma offends so many of us here. But don’t try to call it “bigoted.” It really isn’t.
This whole post isn’t about hating people or certain groups of people. It is about criticizing their beliefs. People should be able to express their opinions and not be threatened with violence. Something is wrong in the culture when we see people having such attachment to symbols that they threaten violence when people call their beliefs into question.
Anon, you fucking shitbag, shouldn’t you be posting personal information at the Catholic League or Catholic.com where your psycho friends are more likely to lurk and act on the info?
Nazi fuck.
Jesus, that Skatje is one ugly bitch!
So, “Anon’s” point is that his “peaceful”, “loving” cult is filled with psychotic, bloodthirsty criminal assholes, which is the only reason he could possibly think people should fear being known.
Thanks, but we already knew Catholics were that way.
CW,
If PZ stumbled up to your wive’s grave site (say), threw his garbage on it, and posted it online for all to see because, after all, it’s “just a piece of earth” and “nothing must be sacred” I hesitate to believe that you’d calmly nod in approval and walk away.
I’d be annoyed, but I wouldn’t go nutty over it. Sacred vs important and sentimental. Besides, if my wife were dead, she’d be decomposing, not freaking out over a bit of garbage.
Come back when you’re ready to wake up and acknowledge the obvious anthropological fact that not everything is “just a” material object, and that humans place value on things for different reasons.
Its just a cracker. You consider it sacred, and fix magic and superstitious significance to it. We say that it shouldn’t be sacred (and if you bothered reading your holy babble, you would notice that you shouldn’t consider an item worthy of idolatry). Its just a cracker. If you can’t deal, call the waaaahmbulance.
Oh, and you don’t control this blog, so don’t act like a kid and try to control its content.
“People value things. Deal with it. ”
Yes, they do. My point was that the value they attach to that cracker, or such an extremely tiny percentage of the hypothetical ashes, is extremely disproportionate.
The first time he has a catholic in his class and disputes a grade this is all going to come up and bite him and the college in the ass. Heck, the college is already talking to the attorney’s. ….Where is the line of free speech and bigotry, what if he sues? what if future students sue? they WILL find the one post that was written “on duty” and he’s gone.
kristen @ #2087 wins the thread for having the patience to deal with CW.
“Unfortunately, it will be at the expense of himself. Rather the unfortunate part is that this knucklehead did it when he has a family to take care of, I want you to all watch how a man lets his ego get ahead of his responsibilities to his wife and child.”
Let’s say for arguments sake PZ lost his job. You really think he’d be hard up for cash? LOL. He could just put out a book and it would FLY off the shelves.
Anon,
Nothing may be sacred, but some things are illegal.
Still, considering the very high proportion of Christians in US prisons, at least you can take some comfort in knowing that the guy who forces a broom handle in your ass while you take him in the mouth will probably be a brother-in-faith.
Wow, posting someone’s personal details. It’s not sacred, that’s an invasion of privacy.
@2095, gdlchmst:
LOLZ. I just got here. Now that I’m reading over some of CW’s other posts, I am beginning to realize I shouldn’t have bothered. Thank you, though, I’m not sure I *want* this thread!
Maybe with some plum sauce and a side of suspicious-looking wafers… it could be good…
#2076 Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 2:40 AM
Sometimes a person has to take a stand. Even if it is a small minority of Catholics sending death threats, molesting children, or other horrible things, these people need to be shown for what they are, publicly. If the Church tolerates these members and their actions (like William Donohue and his pogrom to harass, well, everyone) then the Church needs that light shone on it, too.
What PZ Myers did here shouldn’t have any heroic value – in fact it shouldn’t be necessary. But it is necessary. That’s what is sad about this whole affair.
JBS
Dear Anonn:
Yeah – we knew that. What’s ya point?
Let’s stick to the post, guys.
Information about where PZ lives or how his daughter looks have nothing to do with the subject at hand. It’s immature and childish.
“He could just put out a book and it would FLY off the shelves.”
Indeed, he has a talent for writing.
Funny how the PZ fanatics here will stultify logic itself to defend bigotry in much the same way catholics do.
You people are so unwilling to question your pet rockstar “science blogger” that you’re forced to deny what’s logically intuitive to almost anybody outside your blog cult, namely the following normative fact: humans place value, to varying degrees, on material objects and we should not go around trashing those objects because we find them empty of value.
You’re reduced to the absurd response that, somehow, just somehow if you really think about it hard enough, the belief that a cracker is divine has harmed your day-to-day life. That all catholics are responsible for the sins of a subset of assholes within their religion. That all catholics MUST believe such-and-such and that therefore the entire religion is to be intolerantly bashed to oblivion.
This is beyond sloppy reasoning. It is decidedly INSANE people. Stop playing follow the leader and think for yourselves. What happened to speaking out against bigotry in whatever form, whether practiced by an atheist or a theist?
Face it, PZ screwed up on this one. Ignore the spectacle, think clearly, and focus on what’s happened here: an act of bigotry.
“Yeah – we knew that. What’s ya point?”
Hidden threat, I’d assume. “WE KNOW WHERE YOUR MAILBOX LIVES! WE CAN CUT IT, CUT IT GOOOD! *swishes stiletto knife around*”
It’s not my cult shit bag. My point is that if as PZ says, “nothing is sacred” then NOTHING is sacred. If there are no limits, then there are NO limits. This stupid shit head launched nukes and now you want to claim some imagined high ground and complain about tactics? Please.
Paul & Mary Myers
300 College Ave
Morris, MN 56267
Oldest Son Alaric Myers, graduated from St. Cloud 9/07
Middle Son Connlann Myers
Daughter Skatje Myers Attending UMM
Data gleaned from public tax records and his own vanity web page.
http://homepage.mac.com/myers/
Bravo PZ! Hooray for rationality!
Dave, why have you, with all your years of experience in the ‘real world’, still not managed to work out what an apostrophe is for?
Here’s a hint: plural of attorney is attorneys. If the real world hasn’t provided you with that much knowledge perhaps you should go back to college – or have you never been? That would explain the hostility and anti-intellectualism.
Care to cite your source for your claim that that’s what UM is doing?
At this point in time, it is entirely safe to say that CW is officially tl;dr.
CW, you win. I gave thinking for myself a try, and came to the inescapable conclusion that you are a complete and utter tool.
CW…
Your ability to completely and utterly miss the point is almost superhuman.
You’re like the bizarro-superman of the debating world.
# 2100
please read earlier post-there is no room in the world for idealist
Bob Smith,
Actually, I think this professor is just a sick, sick man, filled with nothing but hate. No, he does not live by the golden rule.
Ah yes, The Golden Rule…
He who has the gold (and the FABULOUS red Prada shoes) makes the rules.
At least according to the Catholic Church.
I tell you what. My favorite crackers are whole wheat Ritz. I hereby declare, with all the powers invested in me by me, that all whole wheat Ritz crackers are my body. rAmen.
Go desecrate some me.
See if I care.
The Big Bang theory that the universe originated in an extremely dense and hot space and expanded was developed by a Belgian priest.
It’s interesting to note that those people, the first scientists, were all monks, they were all clerics!
People today aren’t even aware of this fact!
Here are some examples of scientists who were Catholic clergy:
1. Mendel, a monk, first established the laws of heredity, which gave the final blow to the theory of natural selection.
2. Copernicus, a priest, expounded the Copernican system.
3. Steensen, a Bishop, was the father of geology.
4. Regiomontanus, a Bishop and Papal astronomer; was the father of modern astronomy.
5. Theodoric, a Bishop, discovered anesthesia in the 13th century.
6. Kircher, a priest, made the first definite statement of the germ theory of disease.
7. Cassiodorus, a priest, invented the watch.
8. Picard, a priest, was the first to measure accurately a degree of the meridian.
The conflict between evolutionary science and creationism in the United States comes from the Protestant tradition, not the Catholic one, he said.
American Catholicism is in a Protestant culture,” he said. “We borrow a lot of our attitudes, along with a lot of our hymns, and not always the best of either.
Unfortunate, but true.
List of Catholic Scientists
Algue, a priest, invented the barocyclonometer, to detect approach of cyclones.
Ampere was founder of the science of electrodynamics, and investigator of the laws of electro-magnetism.
Becquerel, Antoine Cesar, was the founder of electro-chemistry.
Becquerel, Antoine Henri, was the discoverer of radio-activity.
Binet, mathematician and astronomer, set forth the principle, “Binet’s Theorem.”
Braille invented the Braille system for the blind.
Buffon wrote the first work on natural history.
Carrell, Nobel prize winner in medicine and physiology, is renowned for his work in surgical technique.
Caesalpinus, a Papal physician, was the first to construct a system of botany.
Cassiodorus, a priest, invented the watch.
Columbo discovered the pulmonary circulation of the blood.
Copernicus, a priest, expounded the Copernican system.
Coulomb established the fundamental laws of static electricity.
De Chauliac, a Papal physician, was the father of modern surgery and hospitals.
De Vico, a priest, discovered six comets. Descartes founded analytical geometry.
Dumas invented a method of ascertaining vapor densities.
Endlicher, botanist and historian, established a new system of classifying plants.
Eustachius, for whom the Eustachian tube was named, was one of the founders of modern anatomy.
Fabricius discovered the valvular system of the veins.
Fallopius, for whom the Fallopian tube was named, was an eminent physiologist.
Fizeau was the first to determine experimentally the velocity of light.
Foucault invented the first practical electric arc lamp; he refuted the corpuscular theory of light; he invented the gyroscope.
Fraunhofer was initiator of spectrum analysis; he established laws of diffraction.
Fresnel contributed more to the science of optics than any other man.
Galilei, a great astronomer, is the father of experimental science.
Galvani, one of the pioneers of electricity, was also an anatomist and physiologist.
Gioja, father of scientific navigation, invented the mariner’s compass.
Gramme invented the Gramme dynamo.
Guttenberg invented printing.
Herzog discovered a cure for infantile paralysis.
Holland invented the first practical sub marine.
Kircher, a priest, made the first definite statement of the germ theory of disease.
Laennec invented the stethoscope.
Lancist, a Papal physician, was the father of clinical medicine.
Latreille was pioneer in entomology.
Lavoisier is called Father of Modern Chemistry.
Leverrier discovered the planet Neptune.
Lully is said to have been the first to employ chemical symbols.
Malpighi, a Papal physician, was a botanist, and the father of comparative physiology.
Marconi’s place in radio is unsurpassed. Mariotte discovered Mariotte’s law of gases.
Mendel, a monk, first established the laws of heredity, which gave the final blow to the theory of natural selection.
Morgagni, founder of modern pathology; made important studies in aneurisms.
Muller was the greatest biologist of the 19th century, founder of modern physiology.
Pashcal demonstrated practically that a column of air has weight.
Pasteur, called the “Father of Bacteriology,” and inventor of bio-therapeutics, was the leading scientist of the 19th century.
Picard, a priest, was the first to measure accurately a degree of the meridian.
Regiomontanus, a Bishop and Papal astronomer; was the father of modern astronomy.
Scheiner, a priest, invented the pantograph, and made a telescope that permitted the first systematic investigation of sun spots.
Secchi invented the meteorograph. Steensen, a Bishop, was the father of geology.
Theodoric, a Bishop, discovered anesthesia in the 13th century.
Torricelli invented the barometer.
Vesalius was the founder of modern anatomical science.
Volta invented the first; complete galvanic battery; the “volt” is named after him.
Other scientists: Agricola, Albertus Magnus, Bacon, Bartholomeus, Bayma, Beccaria, Behalm, Bernard, Biondo, Biot, Bolzano, Borrus, Boscovitch, Bosio, Bourgeois, Branly, Caldani, Cambou, Camel, Cardan, Carnoy, Cassini, Cauchy, Cavaliere, Caxton, Champollion, Chevreul, Clavius, De Rossi, Divisch, Dulong, Dwight, Eckhel, Epee, Fabre, Fabri, Faye, Ferrari, Gassendi, Gay-Lussac, Gordon, Grimaldi, Hauy, Heis, Helmont, Hengler, Heude, Hilgard, Jussieu, Kelly, Lamarck, Laplace, Linacre, Malus, Mersenne, Monge, Muller, Murphy, Murray, Nelston, Nieuwland, Nobili, Nollet, Ortelius, Ozaman, Pelouze, Piazzi, Pitra, Plumier, Pouget, Provancher, Regnault, Riccioli, Sahagun, Santorini, Schwann, Schwarz, Secchi, Semmelweis, Spallanzani, Takamine, Tieffentaller, Toscanelli, Tulasne, Valentine, Vernier, Vieta, Da Vinci, Waldseemuller, Wincklemann, Windle, and a host of others, too many to mention.
CRACKERS RULE!
“But don’t try to call it “bigoted.” It really isn’t.”
I’m sorry you’re incapable of recognizing common bigotry. Do continue abusing language and twisting logic to justify your stubbornness. It’s entertaining to watch pseudo-skeptics such as yourself reveal how credulous you actually are when playing the apologist for PZ.
You are amoral. Just because someone states that nothing is sacred, it doesn’t mean nothing is wrong. But you appear to believe that nothing is wrong, hence you are amoral.
You do know that PZ has the IP you used to post each and every one of these. Yes the information is available on public databases, but it’s still wrong to post it – especially details about his children, grown or otherwise.
But if you don’t get that, and don’t really understand the point about what “Nothing is sacred” means – then you might as well be one of the idiots that accosted Webster Cook and sent him death threats, and all the death threats sent to PZ Myers.
I’m sorry to have encountered someone like you, even virtually. You make me sad for humanity.
JBS
Go desecrate some me.
With delicious cheese. And maybe a slice of grape.
Anon does have a point. And if PZ put those details up on the net then he’s probably not too bothered about people seeing them.
It doesn’t mean he’s not a turd, though.
Thank god… or maybe not.
“Nothing may be sacred, but some things are illegal. ”
Then I’ll look forward to sharing a cell with PZ as he was the one to post his children’s info with pictures. When one is preparing to launch an attack against 800 Million people, it’s wise to review one’s exposure. PZ has fucked his own family.
http://homepage.mac.com/myers/
(Might just clarify I was responding to posts 2081 and 2083)
So, Anon – your balls dropped yet? Still posting from the cubby-house in the basement?
@CW #2104 (yes, ladies and gentlemen, I’m a martyr):
First of all, PZ is far from my pet rockstar science blogger. Sometimes what he says and does frustrates me, because I am often inclined to be gentle with and diplomatic towards religious people… this is just my approach and I really think it has everything to do with personality. That being said, I think that what PZ does here is important and helps the free-thinking cause.
Second of all, I don’t think the host harms my day-to-day life at all. In fact, I used to eat them all the time when I was a practicing Roman Catholic. But, then, in grade 7, a priest told me and my classmates in mass that we shouldn’t be accepting communion if we didn’t believe in the Resurrection. This was the first time I was actually called upon to think about it (how ironic that a priest called on me to do it)… and after thinking about it seriously, I stopped going to mass. At first I did it out of respect for the faith… if I didn’t believe it, then I shouldn’t be standing in church pretending to… but then later I decided that it was also about intellectual integrity. I had to act in a way that reflected not what I BELIEVED… but what I THOUGHT.
Anyway, the point is, that many of my close family and friends worship a cracker does not harm me (though it confuses me). What does harm me is when the same kind of dogmatic thought that compels them to worship a cracker compels them to political action, or social action, that I think is harmful to a just and free society. It harms me when these people refuse to be argued with because their ideas are sacred and beyond reason.
The religion shouldn’t be bashed into oblivion. It should be reasoned and ARGUED into oblivion. That can’t happen if we aren’t allowed to criticize it.
inbeforethreadislocked
Poor cracker. D:
#2112 Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 3:07 AM
Which is precisely why it needs one, or several. You’ve heard of several of them, I’m sure. We have holidays named for them.
JBS
Easy ppl,Im sure PZ will know what to do with Anon’s IP address.
I hear the mentally ill dont do well in US prisons.
Wowbagger,
I really do enjoy your postings!
#2114
“It’s interesting to note that those people, the first scientists, were all monks, they were all clerics!”
For a long time it was very hard to do any scientific study outside catholicism because education was largely organised by the catholic church. Those were the practical circumstances.
Also, clerics would be the people that had food and shelter provided for them, so they had time (and means) for such studies.
This is just a description of circumstances and in no way a negative or positive comment on the catholic church. It is just how it was.
Poor cracker. D:
Feh. Several tons of real food (produce) gets thrown away on a daily basis. Now that’s sad.
If you look real close you can kind of see Jesus’ face on that banana peel. He doesn’t look happy.
Anon, PZ’s address really isn’t sacred, neither is his life. But it is socially injurious to kill him. That, and it makes you a murdering scum, you fatwa-envying sociopath.
Reminder:
I gotta buy myself one of those fancy t-shirts with “Jesus is a cunt”.
Anonn wins the prize for not being able to read properly. Bravo!
“You do know that PZ has the IP you used to post each and every one of these. ”
Yes, I do. Here, you can have it too.
70.7.120.67 Sprint Cellular
If I were you, I would call sprint first thing in the morning and demand to know who was using this IP Adress at 12:23 AM Mountain Standard Time. That should be easy.
If he’s upset the whole of catholicism, why hasn’t the pope said anything?
Maybe because the only people upset by this are a whackjob minority who have been begging for an excuse to prove how vile they are.
CW, Insane? We aren’t the ones who hear voices and fear for the well being of a cracker.
A cracker, and not even a very nutritive one.
The point here is that you and your ilk threatened a young man who was curious about one of those magic crackers.
PZ brought the rational world’s attention to this, and following closely behind, the completely nutters irrational world who believes that Jesus can be injured via voodoo on a cracker. Some omnipotence there. Perhaps omnimpotence.
The nutters rapidly began attacking him, and the nuttiest threatened him (as anon does above). Anon, you know your IP address is being logged, so you aren’t exactly anonymous. Dave, pray all you want. It never accomplished anything before, so enjoy your waste of time.
But as Jeremy pointed out, you are a bigot for eating cattle. How can you do that when cows are sacred to Hindus. I bet you have even played some football. Handling a dead pig is a capital crime in Judaism and Islam.
kristen @ #2122, again, well said. Even though I tend to be on the other end of the personality spectrum.
Anon reminds me of those “fine” German catholics, the Nazis.
#2133
I’ll leave that to PZ if he feels like chasing the lead. I just wanted to see your reaction. It is an interesting one.
JBS
Kiss your job goodbye, moron. And you are a moron given elsewhere you’ve posted pictures of your wife, kids, and HOME. The Muslims will find you. Try not to act surprised if and when they do.
Looks like you’ve dug the one of the all time great internet elephant traps and the lemmimgs are pouring themselves in oblivious to the spectacle they are creating.
Congratulations!!!
The nazis and the christians again… Today it’s 75 years, since the “Gesetz zur Verhütung erbkranken Nachwuchses” was proclaimed. Thats what’s normally meant with “Eugenics in the third reich”. It was the basis for the sterilisation of about 400.000 people, mostly with disabilities, like e.g. deafness, in the name of the “Volksgesundheit”.
Well. The christian churches protested. But interestingly, they didn’t protest against the inhumanity etc. Nope. They protested, because NOW the sterilized people could have sex without regard for the consequences! The german bishops stated: „Die Vertreter des Episkopats machten […] darauf aufmerksam, daß mit der Durchführung des Gesetzes für die private und öffentliche Sittlichkeit große Gefahren sich ergeben; denn die sterilisierten Männer und Frauen können sich nun ihrem Geschlechtsleben hemmungslos überlassen, da ja aus dem Verkehr keine Nachkommen entstehen. Von Seiten der Regierung wurden hier Schutzmaßnahmen [!] zugesagt.”
Well, there’s a lot of disgusting details more. Whats perfectly clear, is that the common canard of “christians opressed/opposed to Nazis” is absolutely wrong.
For those of you, who can read german, have a look at:
http://hpd.de/node/5092
and
http://hpd.de/node/5093
#2139 “The Muslims will find you”
ROTFL. Muslims: Yetti’s boogymen.
THEY’RE UNDER YOUR BED, YETTI! RUN FOR YOUR SWEET LIFE!
TonyT, #2126
Thanks – but you want to be careful CW doesn’t assault you for being a ‘mindless, bigoted Wowbagger drone’ – since, according to him, the only way one can voice one’s opinion is if one disagrees with something.
But that’s it for me for the moment. Night all!
Wow, posting personal address and family associations with the implicit purpose of encouraging violent retaliation.
Nice, Catholics.
Nice.
Yetti, given all the threats/hate spewed by all the Catholic lunatics, I’d be more concerned about them.
They just proved that they are no better than those lunatic cartoon-hating Muslims.
“I gave thinking for myself a try, and came to the inescapable conclusion that you are a complete and utter tool.”
Apparently “thinking for yourself” means leaving common principles of toleration aside and rushing to uncritically accept whatever PZ says or does; in other words, not thinking for yourself at all.
Right, I’m an “utter tool” and a “bizarro-superman” (whatever exactly that means) for standing up for human decency and refusing to support bigotry in whatever form, be it atheism or theism. I’m an “utter tool” for resisting the propaganda burped up by a dogmatic, irrational, bigoted fuckwit (PZ) and thinking independently. Right.
Continue following your leader. And goodnight.
Heh, heh, yeah PZ, it’s gonna be the MOOOOSLIMS who fuck you and your whole family up, not us! We’re not raving psychopaths who will commit heinous violence in the name of a flavorless culinary item! I’m not just projecting my fantasies onto others!
Watch out everyone! Any second now, doves, angels and butterflies will burst forth from the trash can! Keep watching the image above to see it happen!
—-
Yetti, maybe you missed the part where PZ pointed out that no muslims had threatened him or sent him hate mail…
You clinic bombing, doctor shooting, pedophile protecting Catholics are the real danger.
I wish I could buy you a beer PZ. I will drink a tost to this tonight.
Indeed Anon, we should all emulate the moral superiority you’ve shown.
Anon: Save yourself the effort and call 1800flowers to send death threats..
If anyone is interested, here is what the Fourth Lateran Council said on one subject:
“A difference of dress distinguishes Jews or Saracens from Christians in some provinces, but in others a certain confusion has developed so that they are indistinguishable. Whence it sometimes happens that by mistake Christians join with Jewish or Saracen women, and Jews or Saracens with christian women.” This was why Jews and Muslims were ordered to wear distinctive apparel.
It says a lot about Christian mores in the Middle Ages that so many people were having sex with anonymous partners, whose religion they did not know. Considering that most communities were fairly small in those days, it would be difficult not to know people’s backgrounds. So there must have been a lot of travelers getting it on with the locals, and people from the countryside mingling with city folk, all fornicating merrily away with strangers.
If anyone is interested, here is what the Fourth Lateran Council said on one subject:
“A difference of dress distinguishes Jews or Saracens from Christians in some provinces, but in others a certain confusion has developed so that they are indistinguishable. Whence it sometimes happens that by mistake Christians join with Jewish or Saracen women, and Jews or Saracens with christian women.” This was why Jews and Muslims were ordered to wear distinctive apparel.
It says a lot about Christian mores in the Middle Ages that so many people were having sex with anonymous partners, whose religion they did not know. Considering that most communities were fairly small in those days, it would be difficult not to know people’s backgrounds. So there must have been a lot of travelers getting it on with the locals, and people from the countryside mingling with city folk, all fornicating merrily away with strangers.
Am i the only one here,is it because Im an ex-catholic(til the age of 8 or so anyway),am I naive?
I just cannot believe that what we are seeing and hearing in the comments is the best that catholics can do? Please tell me its the fault of the Internet,the relative anonymity and protection it gives people?
Dont tell me 95% of all catholics are mentally ill or suffer from severe cognitive dissonance,from utter lack of moral integrity,a total inability to compute any concept outside their belief system,a profound lack of intelligence,and a tendency towards violence ,uncontrolled rage,hate and murder?
It is certainly looking that way.
CW,
I’m an “utter tool” for resisting the propaganda burped up by a dogmatic, irrational, bigoted fuckwit (PZ) and thinking independently. Right.
Ummm, no, you are an “utter tool” for not resisting the propaganda burped up by a dogmatic, irrational, bigoted fuckwit (Donahue) or fuckwits (the Catholic church).
G’night, tool.
CW, when will you confront the fact that people value things for a reason, and many of those reasons are false? You are not a muslim and thus the Koran hold no importance for you. The same delusion is made by you. You have conveniently ignored every post pointing to this fact and instead have simply repeated your own bile filled claims.
@2154:
no, clinteas, as an ex-Catholic, and someone who still has close contact with the faith, I’d say that these psychopaths are not representative of the Catholics I know.
Most Catholics I know (though I have no way of knowing if THESE people are representative of the faith in general) wouldn’t care if PZ messed up one of their crackers. They’d probably be puzzled why he’d bother, and amazed that we’re all up so late talking about it… but they wouldn’t care. That’s because the Catholics I know are progressive in the sense that they look at the Bible and the rituals symbolically. They vote pro-choice and (Canadian) liberal. If pressed on the matter, though, they’d probably admit they aren’t the “best” Catholics. So really, maybe I don’t know Catholics at all.
Good job, PZ. The “unconcerned contempt” they deserve, indeed. As someone who survived a Catholic childhood relatively unscathed and jumped to the atheist ship as soon as I had any agency, I can unequivocally say that the crazy the Catholics (and other religious nuts) have demonstrated over this incident is exactly the kind of wackaloonery that helped me see the light. I am very hopeful many, many young folks are raptly watching this scene unfold and similarly having their own epiphanies. Cracker-love is so self-evidently moronic, and the over-reaction completely illustrative of the hypocritical “faithful.” Brotherly love, IRL.
Let me see if I have this right.
You do something for the sole purpose of pissing off Catholics and then act amazed at your success. You do something gratuitously evil in our eyes and then have the hubris to try to claim victimhood. Then you juxtapose that with an admission that you are in fact a third rate intellect.
Wow. What else is there to say, really?
#2159 Posted by: DGS | July 25, 2008 4:02 AM
How about “Last one out, turn off the lights.”
JBS
The God delusion + Koran + cracker! That was awesome and cunning. Nobody can blame you now for just doing evil to religious symbols and the best part is, that atheists don’t care about symbols to begin with. I would love to hear the reaction of Richard Dawkins. I can imagine him being quite amused by this.
DGS,
yawn,blahblahblah,yawn.
//What else is there to say, really?//
Nothing,go home.I pray for you.
The God delusion + Koran + cracker! That was awesome and cunning. Nobody can blame you now for just doing evil to religious symbols and the best part is, that atheists don’t care about symbols to begin with. I would love to hear the reaction of Richard Dawkins. I can imagine him being quite amused by this.
I’ve been thinking the same thing. I bet there might be hundreds of young Catholics who are watching the idiocy of the Catholic extremists, and wondering why they are wasting their lives believing in a medieval death cult.
[quote]”I gave thinking for myself a try, and came to the inescapable conclusion that you are a complete and utter tool.”
Apparently “thinking for yourself” means leaving common principles of toleration aside and rushing to uncritically accept whatever PZ says or does; in other words, not thinking for yourself at all.
Right, I’m an “utter tool” and a “bizarro-superman” (whatever exactly that means) for standing up for human decency and refusing to support bigotry in whatever form, be it atheism or theism. I’m an “utter tool” for resisting the propaganda burped up by a dogmatic, irrational, bigoted fuckwit (PZ) and thinking independently. Right.
Continue following your leader. And goodnight.
Posted by: CW[/quote]
No, you’re an utter tool because you’ve been doing nothing but acting like an utter tool who’s done nothing but respond with personal attacks against people who didn’t personally attack you in the first place. My first response to you didn’t contain a single insult, but the same can’t be said when you replied by calling me a “pseudo-skeptic” amongst other things. I disagreed with you, and your reaction was to go after me personally.
That’s why you’re an utter tool.
You tried to paint the anti-gay, anti-choice elements of the Catholic church as a lunatic fringe, and when it’s pointed out that it’s the official stance of the church espoused by the leadership, particularly the pope, you completely ignore it and continue portraying the anti-gay, anti-choice sentiment as being held by the minority.
That’s why you’re an utter tool.
You can’t seem to accept that anyone who agrees with Prof. Myers came to that agreement through their own volition, and the only possible result of thinking for oneself is to disagree with him, agree with you, and label him a bigot.
That’s why you’re an egotistical utter tool.
Let me assure you that as a pro-choice, pro-GLBT rights, pro-sex education, pro-safe and consensual sex liberal atheist feminist, I’ve had issues with Catholicism well before I ever heard of PZ Myers. I’ve had no respect for a religion that has no respect for me for a long, long time.
So yes, I know this is hard for your obviously engorged ego to take, but it’s quite possible for people to think for themselves and completely disagree with you and to agree with Prof. Myers to whatever degree they do. Being nice and respectful to religion hasn’t worked, things are only getting worse. It’s time to stand up and point out the ridiculousness of their beliefs.
Finally, you attacked me before I responded in kind, so is that the human decency you’re standing up for?
That’s why you’re a hypocrite in addition to being a complete and utter tool.
Amazing. You’re wrong before you even finished you’re first thought. Read up. This is a reaction to the violent threats made by your coreligionists.
RE: DGS post #2159
“Let me see if I have this right.
You do something for the sole purpose of pissing off Catholics”
UGH!! pay attention!! You have it wrong! He didn’t do it just to piss the Catholics off, this all began in the defense of a student name Webster Cook.
Are Catholics illiterate?!
Damn it, my point would be more effective if I could get the hang around block quoting around here. :D
Anonn: If you learned that you guided a murderer to his family, how could you live with the guilt? How could you live with their blood on your conscience? Don’t you have even a shred of humanity left?
RE: Michael X post #2166
Damn you’re fast ;)
@ 2165:
//Let me assure you that as a pro-choice, pro-GLBT rights, pro-sex education, pro-safe and consensual sex liberal atheist feminist, I’ve had issues with Catholicism well before I ever heard of PZ Myers//
No way !!!
You sound like great fun,are you on facebook ? LOL
Oy, I’ve committed the your/you’re crime. It is apparently time to retire. If only our catholic commenters held to such standards…
I hope the universe kills you slowly for the desecration of our LORD Dawkins’ greatest work.
Actually maybe I’ll come and stab you with a rusty nail heathen! Dawkins hater! GRRR…
Okay–DGS also wins the prize for inability to read properly! Double bravo!
I’m such a psychic. That was epic.
Too much practice. I’m not sure if this is a good thing…
To those who believe, no explanation is necessary.
To those who don’t believe, no explanation is sufficient.
Faith is a sacred personal gift- not earned nor merited; need not be forced nor to be proven. Likewise for those without faith or take faith as being unnecessary.
By their fruits, they shall be known. Peace to all.
“Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanity’s knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality. You will not find wisdom in rituals and sacraments and dogma, which build only self-satisfied ignorance, but you can find truth by looking at your world with fresh eyes and a questioning mind.”
THAT is fantastic! If only more people thought that way.
Just have to post in this epic thread – well done PZ you have my full support.
To the people saying “Nothing is sacred” means it’s OK to post someone’s personal details or blow stuff up, do learn to read properly and to understand the finer nuances of language. “Nothing is sacred” does not equal “do anything you want because nothing matters”. Typical xtian straw man re atheism (as well as being cowardly and malicious).
I have fruits?! mmmmmmm
Okay, it’s just a cracker, and PZ just nailed it… :P
Great post P.Z.
No beliefs are sacred indeed. We should question everything we think and do. It’s the only way to keep moving forward with our lives. While we try to live our lives and do the right things according to our unique situations and circumstances, we find that no person or book contains the answers we need. Yet, most people seek truth in antiquated books and dogma.
Sadly, X% of all knowledge and truth will stay beyond our grasp, especially when we cling tightly to silly beliefs without question. However, I keep moving forward by feeling my way through the darkness* as the rest of (religious) humanity huddles by their tiny fires of faith. I might not have the comfort of inanity to warm me, but the answers I find with my own hands are worth it.
P.Z. when will you write some books?
Well this was the highlight of my day. Thanks PZ. I will pray for your immortal soul, I just hope the Flying Spaghetti Monster hears it :P
For a third rate intellect, he’s sure getting a lot of attention, including yours DGS.
I look at the flat fact that his blog is very successful for what it was set out to do. Right now I see that there are 2164 comments on this posting alone in less than 24 hours. That’s exceptional! It’s a Bloggers dream to get as much attention as he does. Kudos for PZ, he’s earned it!
So really, saying he’s third rate is just name calling, isn’t it?
Are Catholics even suppose to call people names? What about “turn the other cheek”? I think that was one of the lines that Jesus said.
If you really believed in Jesus, wouldn’t you be following in his footsteps?
Congrats, however, I was personally hoping for some video of the ‘actual’ (so-called) “desecration”….. LOL-?
“To the people saying “Nothing is sacred” means it’s OK to post someone’s personal details or blow stuff up, do learn to read properly and to understand the finer nuances of language. “Nothing is sacred” does not equal “do anything you want because nothing matters”. Typical xtian straw man re atheism (as well as being cowardly and malicious).”
Quoting this because it deserves to be repeated.
Posted by: CW #1918
“So someone’s hand being grabbed by a senior citizen is now “physical assault”. Great logic there.”
It would be classed as such in my country, and I would imagine that charges could legitimately be laid against her in a court of law. Especially considering the fact that she refused to unhand him (pardon the pun) after repeated requests to do so.
And how do you know that the assailant was a senior citizen?
Well said, PZ.
Most religious people don’t understand peace and leaving people alone – everyone has their opinions, so be it, let them be.
He was grabbed by a nun DD,I guess that would seem to imply a senior citizen LOL
“If you really believed in Jesus, wouldn’t you be following in his footsteps?”
That reminds me of this E2 node:
from http://everything2.com/e2node/Beware%2520of%2520finding%2520a%2520Jesus%2520entirely%2520congenial%2520to%2520you
Richard Dawkins wrote in comment #954:
“Congratulations, PZ, on an eloquent gesture. And thank you for including the pages from The God Delusion. It’s only a book.
If I had any doubts about the rightness of what you did, they were dispelled by reading the fatuous, pathetic, ignominious, abjectly stupid protests of Catholics writing in protest. Either they really believe the wafer is Jesus, in which case they are idiots. Or they don’t, in which case they are hypocritical hysterics. Either way, they deserve to be insulted. Congratulations on doing so.
Bravo PZ.
Richard”
Posted by: Richard Dawkins | July 24, 2008 5:53 PM
Re Kevin @ #1478:
You are really missing the whole point of my analogy, which assigned little importance to its precise mapping (actually: art critic -> Prof. Myers, parents -> Catholics, three-year-old -> Christ, drawing -> consecrated host). The point was to set up a situation where acting on an “objective” judgment about something is clearly morally wrong, since other people and their attachment to the matter were being ignored. You do not merely live in a world of facts, but also in a world of people.
Re Ignignockt @ #1559:
You counter my argument by claiming that Prof. Myers’ deed has the redeeming feature of making Catholics aware of their failures. But even if we accept that Catholics value a wafer higher than a person (which is nonsense), Prof. Myers’ deed will certainly not change that for the better. It really has no educational value whatsoever – people do not learn from you if you spit in their faces. That’s elementary psychology of which Prof. Myers as an educator is hopefully aware.
Re dinkum @ #1651:
As is obvious from what I wrote, whether the the host was consecrated or not can be objectively determined by knowing its history, not its present state. Give me the history, and I will give you your answer.
Re DingoDave @ #1724:
Fair enough, that was over the top. Certainly the social orders in Western Europe and the USA won’t get disturbed by this, even if Prof. Myers gets a lot more publicity than I think likely. Most people simply won’t give a damn. My other point remains though, this was still pointlessly offensive to a good many people. It will do nothing but harm.
Re DingoDave @ #1834:
I’m somewhat curious why you think I should defend those verses from the Qur’an. The original expansion of Islam destroyed the Christian regions in North Africa and occupied our Orthodox brethren, not atheists. Furthermore, Charles “The Hammer” Martel and Don Juan de Austria of Lepanto, who saved you from being a Muslim now, were both Catholics, not atheists. We are still waiting for some major atheist defense of Western culture, unless you are counting the Gulags as such?
That you cannot imagine any intermediate social arrangement between (religious) tyranny and total laissez faire is sad, but I guess characteristic. Nevertheless, the most basic considerations of respect and empathy, as are quite common in secular humanism, should be sufficient to see Prof. Myers’ deed as anti-social.
Steinn Sigurðsson feeds Host to DUCKS! Are they now Consecrated Quackers? (C) CanuckRob
IngoB: Can’t you test a wafer to see if it’s consecrated by stabbing it or something to see if it bleeds? Maybe they hold a static charge? If you peed on one, would you get a shock?
IngoB @ 2193 :
//Furthermore, Charles “The Hammer” Martel and Don Juan de Austria of Lepanto, who saved you from being a Muslim now//
Hold it right there !
Is that your way of admitting that man is really born atheist and then subsequently indoctrinated to adopt the religious belief that is prevalent in the society he is brought up in?
That there is no such thing as the one true god,that which god you believe in just depends on where you are born?
That if Don Juan had had a bad day in the saddle,you would now be fervently believing in Allah as the one true god,and think of all the heathen christians as unbelievers who need to be exterminated?
Oh,that was only an oopsie,lil slip of the tongue there?Didnt mean it to sound like that?
Yeah,didnt think so…..
IngoB,
the people you mention as defenders of Western culture defended Christian Europe from people who believed in different nonsense than they did. Their descendants are the ones brave fighters for enlightenment wrestled Europe from, rediscovering the writings of pre-Christian philosophy and democratic concepts of policy. That what you call Western culture came into existence because people shook off Christian oppression and dogma, a freedom Christian powermongers fought tooth and nail. Otherwise we’d still be living in walled city states, defending our freedom against the mercenaries and fanaticized faithful lead by their lord bishops.
I read Clarissa’s short rant with awe.
She has become what makes her little wasteful existence bearable,a hateful bigot.
wow, 3000 posts and going. this is… I don’t know what to call it.
ummm, what? 2200 I meant to say. I’m a tad bit tired. ;)
Nice one, PZ. I was hoping you’d pick The God Delusion as a third target.
Surely you can’t kidnap a god who is omni-present, anymore that you can cause any more harm by nailing a consecrated host (aka cracker) rather than a piece of wood ?
How can you confine an omni-present god any more thoroughly to a specific object by using a magic incantation?
It seems to me that the godstruck are caught up in a pagan view of the world, artfully tricked out with Christian Chrome.
Ingob said:
I find it fascinating that this holier-than-thou Christian’s rationalization for blaming PZ for receiving death threats is identical to the one used by Muslims excusing the rape of a woman who was not wearing a burka: “But but but she provoked their uncontrollable feelings!”
I really hope Dawkins knows about the fate of his book – I suspect he’ll be laughing clear through the weekend.
Dafmeister,
see @ No 954
Bravo Professor Myers, that was both an informative post but also very funny.
I find it funny that despite all of the prayers directed at keeping this cracker intact, Yahweh (the god formerly known as Elorhim!) did NOT intervene AGAIN to save his son – what a bastard!
Or was it just a cracker and God does not exist…oh the torment on what to decide on! :)
Lasties!
FOR THE LOVE OF DOG PLEASE LET THIS BE LASTIES!!!
:P
I’m shocked – shocked, I tell you – that you do not compost your banana peels and coffee grounds. Have you no decency?
I had faith that PZ was a man of his word. :)
This whole debacle, and all the Catholic whining and hand wringing, reminds me of these:
http://www.saynotocrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/stealin-my-bucket-seal.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/shaun263/03-miss-mah-bucket.jpg
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/funny-pictures-shark-bucket.jpg
LOL
Snark #2141: “Humanistische Pressedienst”? Really? Well, I’m sure we can count on them to present a neutral and unbiased account of events.
Since this is allegedly “Science Blogs”, maybe we should consider basing our opinions on some actual sound research instead? A few recommendations:
Besier: Die Kirchen und das Dritte Reich. Spaltungen und Abwehrkämpfe 1934-1937 (2001)
Besier u.a.: Der Heilige Stuhl und Hitler-Deutschland. Die Faszination des Totalitären (2004)
Lindemann: “Typisch jüdisch”. Die Stellung der Ev.-luth. Landeskirche Hannover zu Antijudaismus, Judenfeindschaft und Antisemitismus 1919-1949 (1998)
Dierker: Himmlers Glaubenskrieger: Der Sicherheitsdienst der SS und seine Religionspolitik, 1933-1941 (2002)
Great post PZ. I applaud you for turning this situation into a lesson – not that it was likely you would not.
So many people are trying to come up with analogies to say why this lesson was hateful. Well some pills are bitter to swallow. Grow up and suck it down.
I have not so much an analogy, but a parallel. When American soldiers are dying on the battlefront, are they dying for a piece of cloth with stars and stripes on it, or are they dying for the ideal of freedom? Let us not be distracted by the (in)justness of the war.
Which is it? The physical flag, or what lies behind the object? If I burn an American flag and say “Death to America” I am making my intent known that I am not attacking the flag, but coming for your nation. However, if I just burn a flag and say this is a piece of cloth that means nothing to me then where is the threat? In a meta sense, I am just using a symbol to make a symbolic statement (maybe against the foreign manufacture of flags, or against some policy that I find abhorrent). It is the context that counts.
And the context of this fracas is that a person is more important than a mass produced object that happens to be used symbolically.
So here is the question that Catholics can respond to that will indicate how human they are: Is the livelihood (and life) of a person less important than a piece of cloth? Or infinitely more?
A simple question.
What a moron. What next, pulling wings off of flies? Torturing puppies? Most sane people don’t go through life trying to offend others. But hey, whatever gets your pathetic little ego off, go for it.
Just understand that people will think you a scumbag. But then again, I’m guessing most people have thought that way about you for a long time.
Well nom, you freaks think he’s a scumbag, we think he’s a wise man. So suck it up.
This whole thing had a great lesson, a great moral. I admire PZ for it. If only the whole world was like that it would be great.
Should have left out the nail and thrown everything in a compost pile. Everything except perhaps the coffee is prime worm food!
Hell, really go a bit ‘sciencey’: Add a webcam and do a time-lapse. I’m curious how long cracker takes to break down relative to the paper and banana peel.
PZ, any news on Melanie Kroll. I have signed a petition for her to get her job back. She can’t help having an ass for a husband.
Interesting that the Catholic church are/were so anti-semitic. After all, wasn’t Jesus a jew?
In fact, I once said to a Christian, “Well Jesus was a Jew as well”. He replied indignantly “No he wasn’t, he was a Christian!”
I was rendered speechless :)
For once, I was speechless.
Talking about mental illness, this comment by Cardinal Ivan Dias demonstrates religious lunacy even today, never mind before the enlightenment ..
“This “spiritual warfare” had continued since the fall of Adam, raging “aided and abetted by well-known secret sects, Satanic groups and New Age movements” that revealed the “many ugly heads of the hideous anti-God monster”.
Amazing. Paranoia, primitive superstition and self delusion all in one sentence. Willful ignorance is indeed a dangerous thing.
Thank you, PZ.
The final paragraph in your post made me smile until my cheeks hurt.
The world is a better place for having you in it.
I was struck this morning as I listened to the latest Point of Inquiry podcast, on which you have yourself been a featured guest in the last month or so, how different is your approach to skepticism and debunkery from the guest this week, Joe Nickell.
One of the world’s leading paranormal investigators, Nickell self identifies as a “humanistic skeptic”, which he defines as being open-minded to the humanity of the person behind the belief system, if not the belief system itself. A sort of “Hate the superstition, love the superstitious,” mindset, if you will. Although he admits in the interview that he wasn’t always as tolerant of paranormal beliefs as he is now, he came to the realization that when it comes to skepticism, when dealing with believers there is something to be said for the “softly, softly” approach. I couldn’t agree more.
People who are firm believers in the paranormal – from gods to lake monsters and everything in between – are not likely to reconsider their views when you insult them, or treat them as inferior beings because you find their beliefs inferior. Those persons wavering on the fence between faith and skepticism will take one look at the angry atheist camp, and hot foot it back to the fellowship of the pancake breakfast at the local church. Everyone outside those two camps is the choir, mate, and you really don’t need to preach to us. Your actions, while entertaining, did nothing to advance the cause, and only served to upset the very people we, as atheists, should be reaching out to.
I’m a long-time reader of your blog, PZ, though this is the first time I’ve felt moved to comment. This was badly done, sir. Very badly done.
After the 2000+ posts you’ve gotten already, there’s not much to add.
Bravo!
@1440, Chris said:
Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris
1898, dear, what you describe as happening to Webster Cook IS assault – no puncture wounds or firearms or lasting physical harm are required to qualify.
1947 – how can the King James Bible be the “literal word of god?” It was put together by a series of committees and consists of translations of translations plus translations of copies. Yes, there’s fine language and a good deal of scholarship in it but, if there’s room in your head for a single fact, the reason the work was done was political.
Adam Nicolson has a book on the process, called God’s Secretaries – still available on amazon.co.uk and I can’t be arsed to find out where else – well worth a look.
Those who originally wrote down what we now call the bible probably spoke a variety of languages or dialects. Jesus, if he existed as a single indivdual, almost certainly spoke Aramaic so how come he’s giving out his message in seventeenth century scholarly English? (And from what we know of his background and who he was writing to, Paul’s first choice for conveying a message in writing would have been Greek.)
I may well be speaking also for many here but if you want to convince ME of anything you first have to demonstrate that you’ve some idea what you’re talking about.
Now can I get on with the birthday present I’m trying to make for a great-niece in New Zealand?
@ 2219,Auntie :
//Everyone outside those two camps is the choir, mate, and you really don’t need to preach to us. Your actions, while entertaining, did nothing to advance the cause, and only served to upset the very people we, as atheists, should be reaching out to.//
Speak for yourself,mate !
To elaborate a little despite my urge to blahblah you,about 10000 comments back I was inclined to agree with you in parts,although I wouldnt use the word preach to describe what PZ did when he commented on what had happened to Mr Cook,but that aside.
I didnt think that it was wise to incense and upset all the deluded christians by doing stuff to their holy cracker,because like you I didnt think it would achieve anything other than further alienate them and maybe drive the moderates away,but the sheer amount of bigotry,lack of familiarity with their own holy book,hate,illiteracy,lunacy,intellectual dishonesty and sheer stupidity that the representatives of catholicism have shown here in the last 2 weeks has convinced me that indeed riducule,sarcasm and provocation aimed at debunking the religionists ridiculous superstitions is the only way to go forward.
And I think PZ has done it in a particularly stylish and balanced way in the end.
So yeah,fuck you.
Wrong, Auntiememe,– PZ speaks out so young people can stumble upon it and see just how crazed people can get about their beliefs. Many young people need seeds exactly like this planted by intelligent adults to reject the superstitions their parents have inflicted upon them. Your opinion as to how this has not furthered critical thinking is just that–an opinion. Many, many nonbelievers started the journey towards critical thinking and away from the inanity of faith by exactly such mockery. I suspect that PZ has reached as many or more people than Joe Nickell.
My teen son and his friends are appalled at the insanity religion can lead to. He had thought we’d come a lot further than this. I’m glad to have him read this and inoculate himself against the faith meme further. It makes people very ugly indeed while imagining faults in others that are way more obvious in them. PZ works for him– Joe Nickell doesn’t. I like Joe Nickell, but PZ speaks for a scientific computer literate younger crowd and across many nations. They have different goals. YOu probably ought to work on yourself before tsk-tsking others. Joe Nickell should have taught you that there is no such thing as a psychic so your inane phrase about PZ doing “nothing to advance the cause” makes you a hypocrite. What is this cause and how do you know whose mind have been broadened? How arrogant for you to presume to know what others have learned.
To quote the self-important: “This was badly done, (mam) Very badly done”. Your scolding may make you feel superior, but from my end it makes you look like someone I wouldn’t take advice from.
I would respond, but I chuckled when I saw the picture and was struck blind.
Wow. All these people willing to kill PZ Myers, and his son, in defense of their God.
Reminds me of What I Like About Christianity.
Face it, folks, if Jesus hadn’t wanted to be pierced with a rusty nail and thrown into the garbage, do you think that he couldn’t ask His Father, and who would even now send more than twelve legions of angels to collect PZ’s garbage, and that banana peel would even today be sitting at the right hand of God?
Bravo PZ, well done! I came to Pharyngula as a lapsed Catholic and came out an atheist. mmmm crackers.
Well, it certainly didn’t take long for the false catholics to come screaming out of their dark corners, did it?
Nice to see they don’t even know their own faith’s teachings well enough to understand that PZ has done nothing to them.
Nice to see their egos are so large, so unwieldy, that they can not see past themselves and their petty, earthly desires and frail human emotions long enough to see that they insult their own god on a daily basis by not believing in a word he’s supposedly had written in their very own holy book.
It’s very heartening to see that their faith is so weak, so frail and so tenuous that they will abandon the central teachings of their holy book in order to give in to their more base desires.
It’s fantastic to read their hate-filled, “damn you to hell” comments, knowing how much their own god hates it when lowly little creations of his attempt to usurp his right to judge his creation.
The best part, though, the very best part of all of this: That they demonstrated in public how little they really know about their own religion and now they have to contend with the fact that the proof of their heresy, their blasphemy and their poor faith is written in a public forum, for all to see.
Wow – I really thought that I was already completely inured to radioactive levels of religiously-inspired stupidity. It seems I was wrong… This thread is unbelievable.
If there is a God, why did he make all his followers so damn stupid?
Transubstantiation?
They’re crackers!
I pray for your milkshake.
Act of Reparation to the Most Blessed Sacrament
With that most profound respect
which divine Faith inspires,
O my God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
true God and true man,
I adore Thee,
and with my whole heart I love Thee,
hidden in the most august Sacrament of the Altar,
in reparation of all the irreverences,
profanations, and sacrileges, that I,
to my shame, may have until now committed,
as also for all those
that have been committed against Thee,
or that may be ever committed for the time to come.
I offer to Thee,
therefore, O my God,
my humble adoration, not indeed,
such as Thou art worthy of,
nor such as I owe Thee,
but such, at least,
as I am capable of offerings;
and I wish that I could love Thee
with the most perfect love
of which rational creatures are capable.
In the meantime,
I desire to adore Thee now and always,
not only for those Catholics
who do not adore or love Thee,
but also so supply the defect,
and for the conversion of all heretics,
schismatics, lebertines,
atheists, blasphemers,
sorcerers, idolaters.
Ah! yes, my Jesus,
mayest Thou be known,
adored, and loved by all
and may thanks be continually given to Thee
in the most holy and august Sacrament!
//The best part, though, the very best part of all of this: That they demonstrated in public how little they really know about their own religion and now they have to contend with the fact that the proof of their heresy, their blasphemy and their poor faith is written in a public forum, for all to see.//
And that Kate,is indeed the best part !
The Pope himself would distance himself from those wackos…..
I pray for your milkshake.
Does it bring all the boys to the yard?
sorry, but if you feel the need to say something like this, it’s clear you’ve not read any more about this than what Angry Bill Donohue has had to say about it. do you actually know why PZ did this? it seems not. moreover, it seems that you, like so many others, are the one jumping in to vent abuse, having gobbled up the Catholic spin like particularly tasty wafers.
Hell does exist, and predicted miracles too.
http://www.loveandmercy.org/loveandmercy/fatima.htm
MAJeff,allow me….
@ 2235 roger b
blah blah blah blah blah
Hell does exist, and predicted miracles too.
N-D-E!
N-D-E!
Let me just add my congratulations (to go eternally unread amidst the horde of comments) for a beautifully written and satisfying post. PZ, you have balls of steel.
I love the “hell does exist” coupled with “love and mercy.”
Bravo PZ! That was very well done. The insane replies from the cracker worshippers show that such a post was needed in order to shine some light on the dark recesses of their religion. I personally had no idea that some Catholics were this disassociated from reality and had so much repressed violence. They seem to long for the good old days when they could kill at will. So I guess I should also say ‘bravo’ to them for letting me see what their religion is really like.
Catholic morality: Deep down I really really want to murder a stranger and shit over his dead body but for the giant security camera in the sky watching. Therefore I am morally superior!
Very inspiring.
On my way out of religion I tried out the Catholic church to see if they had anything my native Church of the Nazarene was just missing….
I tried my darndest to believe the whole cracker=Christ thing, but the total absurdity was just too much for my mind to accept.
The Catholics that are so pissed off about this ‘cracker desicration’ also need to remember that they did not less to members of other faiths. For example, from the online Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02656a.htm):
They celebrate this man by calling him a saint. I smell a double standard.
Cowardly heretic!! I noticed that there was no *spaghetti* in that trash can. Clearly, Dr. Myers knows and fears the awesome powers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster! He is wise to avoid offending His Holy Noodliness! All bow before Him!
You are free to consider the Host a mere piece of cracker. However, it feels to me that you were motivated by hate and a desire for vengeance to steal something sacred to many people. That you had no business doing, any more than I have the right to come into your home and steal something. And though you are an atheist, I’ll bet you would be pretty pissed off if someone went into a synagogue and stole a Torah. No matter that it has undoubtedly already been done at some time and place.
But you talk about Catholic crimes against Jews. What are Jews other than a people united by religion? Isn’t that also a false unity? Or is it your lousy history that unites you? Either way, you are just as guilty of hatred as the Catholics who have historically persecuted Jews, no matter that the crime was of a lesser degree than many of those perpetrated by Catholics.
Anon said, “Yes, I do. Here, you can have it too. 70.7.120.67 Sprint Cellular”
That’s in Los Angeles, so it’s narrowed down a little. Well, at least to a few million.
Maybe PZ should post your information? Would you like you pathetic coward?
Four hundred posts while I caught up on my sleep. Most of the catholic posts follow the same irrationality. Somewhere in the logic is an unstated assumption that your beliefs cannot be questioned. You may not be able to question those beliefs within your faith, as it is an authoritarian belief. Anybody else can question your beliefs as they are not under the authority of the church hierarchy, and in questioning your beliefs they are not bigots or impolite. What PZ did was in direct response to the maltreatment of Webster Cook, and Bill Donohue of the Catholic League for being a hard ass about the incident. Crackergate was PZ responding to BD in a hard manner, he was following the Golden Rule–by BD’s standards. The Catholics who are venting against PZ should be flooding the Catholic League with the same venom for going overboard, and making a mountain out of an anthill.
Ironically, fool, you are the one that is wrong. 1215 is accepted as the historical beginning of the Eucharist.
But then, so far, most of the Catholics have been wrong about the start date. Not all, but most.
OTOH, you’ve all been wrong that it’s part of the Bible as originally written. It’s not. IT was added in, along with the junk about the trinity and a whole bunch of other changes, by the Catholics while they were in competition with other religious sects.
Didn’t you ever get it? There is no Trinity in Judaism. There was never a trinity in Judaism.
In fact, the old testament evidence you use for the trinity is in the female voice in the old texts and points to the original POLYTHESITIC Judaism that was practiced before the 7th Century BC.
Get it now?
Your religion is phony. All the way phony. You think it’s passed down without changes.
Son, if you saw the original human-sacrificing, polytheistic religion from which Catholicism evolved, YOU WOULDN’T recognize it. You wouldn’t believe it. You’d refuse. Just as you people refuse to believe that we might have evolved out of a common ancestor with BATS long before our ancestors we became apes.
And yet, being completely ignorant to the totally changed religion, you demand respect for your traditions.
You want respect? Start with the human sacrifice again! You’ll get some damn respect. But a cracker?
Dude, crackers are weak and they don’t fight back…
Posted by Debra #2231:
“for the conversion of all heretics,
schismatics, lebertines,
atheists, blasphemers,
sorcerers, idolaters.”
Don’t you think it’s a bit hypocritical for a self confessed cracker worshipper to be praying for the salvation of sorcerers and IDOLATERS?
You must have had the manditory Catholic irony-bypass operation. Did it hurt much?
This idle talk about removing posts and comments made by the faithful is heinous. If I make speak in the collective, ‘we’ the faithless should try to be better than that – censorship is an attribute of the fundies. We aspire, or I would hope that we do, greater virtues. Aside from that, ridicule away.
quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack
quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack
Anthony,
//If I make speak in the collective, ‘we’ the faithless should try to be better than that – censorship is an attribute of the fundies//
WTF?
No censorship in the 2 years Ive been here mate,project much?
We the faithless? We the Aussie Rules is a silly sport believers? We the need to pee if we drink beer people? Yeah we should be better than that !
Ed: That kind of comment is considered spam around here. It’s just empty noise intended to annoy. Spammers don’t even get a dungeon entry — they are just quietly disposed of and banned.
This is your only warning.
Anthony,
//If I make speak in the collective, ‘we’ the faithless should try to be better than that – censorship is an attribute of the fundies//
WTF?
No censorship in the 2 years Ive been here mate,project much?
We the faithless? We the Aussie Rules is a silly sport believers? We the need to pee if we drink beer people? Yeah we should be better than that !
@2249: Whatcha talkin’ ’bout, Anthony?
We like seeing those comments in all their naked glory!
Thank you dear “Professor” for reminding me of the truth of the Third Secret of Fatima and also for reinforcing my decision to homeschool and to send my sons to a decent Catholic college.
From the Third Secret of Fatima:
“The vision of Fatima concerns above all the war waged by atheist systems against the Church and Christians, and it describes the immense suffering endured by the witnesses to the faith in the last century of the second millennium. It is an interminable Way of the Cross led by the Popes of the twentieth century.”
I used to have a large part of my practice in the Gospel Music Industry. I gave it up almost all of it because they made me sick. Nowhere, in all my years of private practice, did I see such systemic dishonesty, greed and hypocrisy.
It really came down to that once the “I’m doin’ it for the Lord” crap came out, everything had to be in writing with positive engagement letters serving as our contract because, sooner or later, they were going to give me the shiv. If they wouldn’t sign, too bad, so sad, find a different putz.
Even then, I had more unpaid fees from this segment (about one-third of my business) than I did with the rest of my practice combined. I still have a small number of tax clients through a local business manager. In the last two years I’ve had over a $1,000 in write-offs from them.
A far greater amount than from my secular, or non JESUS!!!!, crowd.
Hey Ed, you left out a couple of quacks.
You need to proof-read your posts more carefully in the future.
I know it’s been fun, but I think everybody has said everything they need to say already. I will be closing this thread at 9am Central time, and I won’t be opening a new thread for further ranting.
I don’t mind the discussion, it’s just that it’s getting excessive, and since a certain kind of bizarre Catholic inanity is already on full display, I think it’s good enough to simply freeze it as a testimonial. Nothing will be deleted, not even the stuff by that vile coward who likes to anonymously post information about my family.
Debra,
congrats on being a child abuser.
But maybe it was like this:
http://www.artofeurope.com/larkin/lar2.htm
Ed: That kind of comment is considered spam around here. It’s just empty noise intended to annoy. Spammers don’t even get a dungeon entry — they are just quietly disposed of and banned.
This is your only warning.
ROFLMAO!
IS THAT A THREAT “DOC”? ARE YOU THREATENING ME “DOC”?
COME ON, ZACH. DO IT. BAN ME.
It’s not really the Qur’an if it’s not in the sacred language, Arabic. PZ, you need to go after the Real Thing if you really want to piss off the members of the most dangerous superstition on the planet.
This stuff is hilarious!
It reads a lot like the anti Catholic bashing you can read on sites by David Duke, Phelps, and the KKK.
The similarity is striking.
In fact, I think some of the same posters are commenting! LOL!
THAT’S RIGHT ZACH, SILENCE ALL WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU! COWARD!
Ecce Saltine!
Dear clinteas I have never abused a child nor an animal in my life. Personally although I disagree with many here and the Professor I wish no one any harm. God bless you all and keep you.
Praying for you,
Debra
Ed,
its early in the day,not too late to see your Psychiatrist,try and get in please.
COME ON ZACH. I’M WAITING…………………………
Your uninformed and ignorant beliefs about the law doesn’t make your comeback hold water. You can’t fired a tenured professor “for cause” for the things he does on his time.
Honestly, get a fucking clue. He’s not an “at will” employee. He’s tenured. About the only way to get rid of him is if he deliberately goes out of his way to not do his job.
Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you modern bunk-house lawyers? In the days of the Usenet, bunk-house lawyers were so much smarter and had such a better handle on the law and its application…
I support Dr. Myer’s demonstration.
I also enjoyed the pictures of gumbies.
Dear clinteas I have never abused a child nor an animal in my life. Personally although I disagree with many here and the Professor I wish no one any harm. God bless you all and keep you.
Praying for you,
Debra
PERHAPS ZACH CAN SCORE HIMSELF A GOOD LAY.
As a young skeptical altar-boy-by-familial-fiat I used to scarf down a handful of hosts and wash them down with a quaff or two of the Sangria o’ Jesus prior to mass. Sort of a Big MacJesus Happy Meal to set the mood for the grueling pomposity to come.
Debra,
I pray for you too,and your children over the age of 18,and your mother.
Hmm… If it´s just a cracker, why did You pierce it with a nail before throwing off? I don´t get it, sorry…
Simply throwing off would far more demonstrate that you really do not care about its relegious meaning.
IF IT LOOKS LIKES A DUCK, IT MUST BE A DUCK.
QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK.
And that is precisely my point. I don’t know its history. You don’t know its history. Likely, there aren’t a dozen people who know its history. And yet, look at what’s happening anyway.
Actual “desecration,” regardless of whomever you personally believe has the sole right of definition, is utterly and completely irrelevant. These people are going mentally ballistic over the mere idea of anyone disagreeing with their personal beliefs.
PZ – how dare you descrecrate a nail like this…one of the most useful inventions of humankind wasted on one of the most useless inventions of mankind….(and in this case I do mean man)
So, now we have a sample of maybe 10k posts on crackergate, are we going to have an ANTI-MOLLY award based on who posted the most consistently irrational and stupid comment/s?
All hail to my god, to my collar
My god who is also your god is a loving god. He is god of all and he is an exploding collar.
He is a collar which all of us wear. He is a collar with a timer and a link to some random collar.
The loving god will explode when the timer runs out and you never know when it happens but he is loving god as when it explodes it most likely allows someone close to you to join you in the death.
Some timers never run out as my god is merciful god, he lets you live forever as long as the other collar never explodes or you associate yourself with a sinner whose collar will explode before its time but the explosion is only due his love of the sinner.
The joined collars will become one in the death and thus my god is the only true god, he does not separate you by your beliefs or color nor force you to worship him.
My god is an exploding collar and it is good that he is also your god.
All are equal under his guidance and eternal life is given to those who follow his teachings which is to wear the collar without doubt. You never need to join his church as we all are his children and joined by the collars.
Love the children of the collar, love the collar.
Hmm… If it´s just a cracker, why did You pierce it with a nail before throwing off? I don´t get it, sorry…
Simply throwing off would far more demonstrate that you really do not care about its relegious meaning.
WELL GOLLY, SOMEONE FIGURED THIS OUT?
OF COURSE HE DOESN’T THINK IT’S JUST A CRACKER. HE’S A HYPOCRITE. BUT HIS SHEEP STILL FOLLOW HIM NONETHELESS.
THE DUMB LEADING THE DUMB.
Posted by Ed: “THAT’S RIGHT ZACH, SILENCE ALL WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU! COWARD!”
If you had anything constructive to say, then I don’t think you’d be threatened with being banned.
Have you got anything constructive to say? If so, then say it. If not, then bugger off and stop your juvenile posturing.
Ahh… You’re a bigoted, attention whore “cause troll” like Larry Farfarman.
Ow. That’s gotta hurt.
STILL HERE COWARD……………………………….
Actually, none of that happened. IT was added to the bible hundreds of years later. It is no longer considered authentic by archaeologists and historians who’ve gotten beyond centuries of “bible-centered” interpretations of the evidence.
In other words, once they looked at the facts as facts, and put them together properly, they discovered that most of the Old and New Testaments were bullshit.
That you haven’t got the message is your problem. That you waste your life on lies is your problem.
When the comment count goes over 2000, what’s the point in commenting any more? No one is going to read what you wrote anyway; well no one of consequence.
Jesus Christ : Look at this dad,that PZ guy is mocking us again !
Almighty God: Oh fuck no,not that guy again !! Send some of our brightest minds to his blog to defend us and prove once and for all that I am the one true Lord God straight away !
Jesus Christ : Will get on to it now dad !
Ed://IF IT LOOKS LIKES A DUCK, IT MUST BE A DUCK.
QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK.//
Almighty God: Jesus !!! WTF?? Who’s this guy Ed? Did I say pluck some dude from an asylum to defend us??
Jesus Christ: *cringe* But dad,he was the brightest they had !
Almighty God: *Initialize self-destruct sequence*
Catholics might as well admit that they don’t believe that the host is the literal body of Christ. How do I know that they don’t? Because people with celiac disease can get a special wheat free host. If they really believed in literal transsubstantiation, it wouldn’t matter what the object started out being because it would change into human flesh once blessed (or maybe once consumed–I’m not too clear on that point.) So why not admit that it’s just a cracker with high symbolic value?
@Bill Dauphin (#287):
Any differences are purely accidental…
Morning all. I can’t believe this is still going. But I’m gonna get another post in before the end.
Congratulations, PZ; it’s worked – and probably better than anticipated, since I had no idea papists were as reactionary as the protestants. No doubt one or two mothers will be checking the basement to see their good little catholic boy isn’t masturbating to mocked-up Virgin Mary porn again, and find instead that he’s managed to choke on his own tongue from the all the impotent raging and frothing-at-the-mouth.
I just love how they think all their co-religionists are as retarded as they are. Here’s a hint, guys – if the Pope can’t be bothered mentioning it, it probably isn’t worth shrieking about.
Then again, he’s probably as embarrassed by US catholics as all the rest of the world’s christians are by the fundies. Seriously, if it wasn’t for the increasing Latino population I doubt he’d even remember they were there.
True enough. Any comparison to Larry Fafarman is probably enough to give even the most steadfast of disposition a sudden bout of unameliorable rage. That guy is so rage inducing.
bob smith #1550 [and any other believers that have made, or currently believe, this ridiculous “argument”:
Nonsense. To even begin to defend this you would have to first show show that all attempts to ground objective morality on a nontheistic basis fail. As this has not happened, you are nowhere near showing that nontheistic morality is necessarily subjective. In other words, you are simply asserting that it is so.
This is one example:The Case for Objective Morality [Francois Tremblay]:
And here’s the thing: there are so many problems with a theistic morality that I simply could not list them here. But most theists — who sometimes delight in telling atheists that they either cannot be moral without God, or that there can be no objective morality without God — often don’t have the first idea about what it takes to ground ethics and morality in sound principles.
These are just some of the problems with attempting to ground ethics on a theistic basis:
The Euthyphro dilemma
“Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?”
– “The first horn of the dilemma (i.e. that which is moral is commanded by God because it is moral) implies that morality is independent of God and, indeed, that God is bound by morality just as his creatures are. God then becomes little more than a passer-on of moral knowledge.”
– “The second horn of the dilemma (i.e. that which is moral is moral because it is commanded by God, known as divine command theory) runs into three main problems:
– First, it implies that what is good is arbitrary, based merely upon God’s whim; if God had created the world to include the values that rape, murder, and torture were virtues, while mercy and charity were vices, then they would have been.
– Secondly, it implies that calling God good makes no non-tautological sense (or, at best, that one is simply saying that God is consistent and not hypocritical).
– Thirdly, it involves a form of reasoning that G.E. Moore classified as a naturalistic fallacy; to explain the claim that murder is wrong (or the prescription that one should not commit murder), in terms of what God has or hasn’t said is to argue from what Moore classified as a putative fact about the world to what Moore classified as a value (see is-ought problem).”
However you attempt to squirm of out this dilemma, you are always going to run in to the same problem. It doesn’t matter whether you claim that it is a command, or part of God’s character, or anything else that you can think of.
And there are more problems, as well. How does one objectively [and it would have to be so] decide, not just between the competing accounts of different religions, but also the same religion? The very act of deciding to either become, or to remain a Catholic [who interpret scripture differently from other Christians], introduces subjectivity in to the equation. You are essentially deciding which account of morality [as well as other teachings] suit you, personally. This is not objectivity — at least in totality.
Also, how do you decide what to do about the thousands of modern moral dilemma’s that are not even mentioned in the bible [child custody, for example]? There is no scriptural basis for deciding who should have custody of children after a divorce. So, I’m afraid, many of your own moral choices will necessarily have to be informed by the secular, and often nontheistic, world.
To conclude, it is my own opinion that we are all in the same boat in terms of ethics and morality, and that theists, by virtue of being able to hand over all of their ethical impulses to God — a God, by the way, whose moral nature is decidedly incoherent, in the first place — become lazy, and often don’t even think about ethical questions at all. If you honestly believe that deferring to another — even the creator of the universe — is the best way to develop a compassionate and consistent moral character, I beg to differ.
The truth cannot be silenced: bananas are best when they’re brown!
Is the Catholic Inquisition over yet?
Geee…., PZ,
you’ve received a lot of comment notes and one understands if you don’t feel like reading them all (i sure haven’t), but i think #1975 expresses what a lot of us feel.
“Nothing must be held sacred”…..hm…..how about a person’s home, house? Or a loved one’s gravestone, a gift you received from a beloved relative just before he/she died?
I think any atheist can relate to those examples.
A gravestone is after all “just a frackin’ piece of mineral”, isn’t it?
An important book given to someone by grandma is just a frackin’ fibre, isn’t it?
Of course certain items are sacred to you. The same goes for all people.
/ simple z
I can’t believe this is still going on at full force! Well, maybe we all managed to get through to a few of them…. but I doubt it. We sure can’t say we didn’t try though.
Congrats PZ on a well thought out and very fitting display of why the core beliefs of religion are just so stupid. I know I always try to ask questions about everything, and hopefully you have inspired at least a few to start doing that for themselves. Bravo!
So, now we have a sample of maybe 10k posts on crackergate, are we going to have an ANTI-MOLLY award based on who posted the most consistently irrational and stupid comment/s?
Are we calling it the KENNY?
This CW is an irony factory of the first water. Virtually every post is full of his hate, bile and demonstrated compartmentalization he needs to avoid the effects of cognitive dissonance. What an amazing piece of work.
Sometimes I wish I’d have gone the clinical psychology route. How a mind, so obviously screwed up, can still function, at any level at all, is amazing.
Shame on you, PZ Myers! How dare you desecrate “The god delusion” Richard Dawkins’ acolytes will hunt you down!
I dare you to desecrate “The Origin of the Species”, just so you can see how evil those evil-utionists can be.
Nope. Nothing is sacred. “Sacred” is an ooga-booga word used by the religious to wall of something from criticism. Some things are important and of value to us, but nothing is literally divine, nothing is sacrosanct. Like I said, question everything.
My home is of value to me, but to claim that it is sacred to me is simply ridiculous. If I were to put it on the market, for instance, people would actually argue with me about the dollar value of the place, and some people would outright reject my home. Especially with the housing market as it is now. So what’s sacred about that?
Oh no. Baby Jesus is crying.
Thanks a lot, PZ. Now I have to go feed him from my atheist’s teat in order to quiet his infant rage.
So PZ, do you, like, get paid by the number of comments or something?
Wow. The blog’s still here. I was worried it would have sunk last night under the weight of so many comments. Must be built on bedrock. Good job PZ – always best to build on a solid foundation.
In some weird way, I like Larry Farfarman. Sure, his opinions are pure nutter. Yes, he’s more annoying than a leg-humping dog.
But he’s so earnest in a crazy-old-man way. If he didn’t have the Internet, he’d be sitting on his porch yelling at kids for getting on his lawn or because their hair is too long or something.
Of course, I also like stinky cheese. And eating pickled onions by the jar. And I make a dish that’s basically blanched garlic cloves and jalapenos marinated in olive oil and finished off with just a bit of balsamic vinegar… When I eat it, my skin and breath smells like garlic for days.
Time is running out. Got to get ready for client meetings.
Have fun everyone.
Ed@2281: For the slow amongst us (yes that is you), PZ did that because that was a piece of 13’th century (and later) propaganda on a wood carving about the blood libel. The one that resulted in 100’s of thousands of dead Jews. Ya know. That bit of Christian lovin’…
“Actually, none of that happened. IT was added to the bible hundreds of years later. It is no longer considered authentic by archaeologists and historians who’ve gotten beyond centuries of “bible-centered” interpretations of the evidence.
In other words, once they looked at the facts as facts, and put them together properly, they discovered that most of the Old and New Testaments were bullshit.
That you haven’t got the message is your problem. That you waste your life on lies is your problem. ”
Actually, wasting time here casting pearls before swine is my problem. I’ll be watching the developments in the news from now on.
Real desecration or hoax, PZ had brought the political thunder and lightning down upon his own head. Best for you to worry about his problems from now on. S’long.
“The Golden Rule is based on love of neighbor, not hate of neighbor. What this guy did is in no way an application of the Golden Rule. It is nothing but hate being purposely put on display.” – Posted by: bob smith
Would that be ‘Normal Bob Smith’?
If you want to see some serious ‘blaspheming’, then check out the links below.
(DISCLAIMER – Neither PZ Myers, nor the University of Minnessota, nor DingoDave deem themselves to be in any way responsible for any adverse reactions which Christian fanatics might experience after clicking on any of the following links)
Click and Enjoy. : D
http://www.jesusdressup.com/
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/flash_jesus/flash_jesus.htm
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/revenge/
“”I’m afraid sometimes
you’ll play lonely games too,
games you can’t win
because you’ll play against you””
“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
GK Chesterton
“Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again.”
CS Lewis
“If there were no God, there would be no atheists.” GK Chesterton
What amazes me, is that you have put so much effort into something that you don’t even believes exists.
I myself, do not believe in unicorns. But it would never occur to me to stab one with a rusty nail nor risk my reputation trying to debunk their existence. Me thinks thou dost protest too much.
Amanda Marcotte, nice to see you’re consitent.
Bobby Bambino, John Lewandowski…carry on.
God Bless you Mr. Myers. Truly, you are a man with far too much time on your hands. Perhaps you should look into pinochle.
I’ll throw in my two cents before the post is closed.
I think the reaction by some of the extreme Catholics was way out of line, and some criminal. I think any philosophy can be abused and we’ve seen evidence on that from both sides.
I further think it is sad, and interesting, that so many people are hellbent to convince me to something I already know–there’s virtually no way to scientifically prove religion or my faith. There’s been those stories about bleeding hosts or medical miracles, but for the sake of discussion and for finding common ground, let’s ignore them.
Faith is believing in things unseen. Stupid and simpleminded as it may be to many on this blog, I like that I have the faith to believe that there is more to this life than what meets the eye.
Why am I not yelling about what the Professor did? I believe there could be more going on than what meets the eye. Do I know what that is? Will I ever? No, probably not. While I believe that the wafer was God, God also exists outside of that, or all of the hosts in the world. My tradition says that God was killed by folks hellbent to bring him down.
If my faith believes that my God-in-the-flesh, made human for once and for all, was killed, it can handle some professor stabbing a host with a nail. I don’t like it; I’m not elated that he did it, but my faith won’t crumble.
Will God send down lightning bolts? I’m not holding my breath. Will God take out vengeance on the Professor? I don’t see anything happening anytime soon. I believe that God’s mercy is infinite; otherwise, I have no chance in hell of making it to my eternal goal. Do I hope to meet the Professor someday in the afterlife? I really hope so. Do I agree with folks thinking that he should meet his afterlife sooner rather than later, of course not.
Catholics are hypocrites. There’s no other way to be Catholic. Our faith teaches us to aspire to be Christ, which we believe is perfect. There’s no way to live perfectly. Without a doubt, some do it better than others. Some do their honest-to-God best, and it is damn close. Others do things completely off the grid and not in pursuit of Christian perfection- like sending death threats. Nail me on the No True Scotsman fallacy, if you wish, but fallacy or not, that’s reality. There’s no such thing as a perfect driver. Some try to drive perfectly in line with the law. Others seem to have a death wish. Doesn’t mean we should try toward perfection.
It seems to be a bad thing around here to give people the benefit of the doubt. Great. I don’t subscribe to that thought though.
My faith is intact and I can’t scientifically prove it. Despite my science background, I’m okay with that. Science is meant to prove the things that can be proved with evidence. Theology discusses the things that are outside the bounds of evidence–sure, there may be some physical evidence here or there, but the evidence will never, on its own, prove the point.
Most here are obviously excellent on natural philosophy and logic grounded in the scientific process–which is very much needed and great. I think there’s more going on in life than what can be discussed using those disciplines.
Wish you all well.
Enkla Z@2296: PZ is referring to ideas. I understand you have been drawn like a moth to the light to make a post without understanding or reading those big words at the beginning of the post, but please take the time to understand the issue beforehand.
As an aside, I have read the Fourth Lateran Council. Yes, the Church have failed at times in the corporate pursuit of perfection.
A possibly interesting aside, the Fourth Lateran Council also codified the modern “engagement” before the wedding. The original intent is to give plenty of time before the actual wedding ceremony to allow any with knowledge of why a couple should not be wed (i.e. the guy has another wife in the next village over) to present their knowledge.
Things are going downhill fast when people start using their ridiculous miracle stories in defense for their beliefs. I mean, the “miracles” of Fatima, are you serious? Thats the kid who predicted WWII after it started right? Wow.
That you didn’t include “Silent Spring” or perhaps “Earth in the Balance” or maybe a dvd of “An Inconvenient Truth” shows your cowardice…
After reading the threats and irrational rantings of the many apologists (read: attack dogs) for the Catholic Church, it would be wise if some “medication” were added to the weekly handout of wine and cookies. As so many others on this blog have pointed out, these people are deluded, hypocritical and likely dangerous. If the poor street people I’ve seen walking around talking to themselves could use the Internet, these posts represent what they would be saying. Sorry, I didn’t mean to insult the street people, as even they seem to have a moral center and rationality absent in our Catholic God-botherers. I sometimes wish there was a Hell (other than a town in southeast Michigan.)
I myself, do not believe in unicorns. But it would never occur to me to stab one with a rusty nail nor risk my reputation trying to debunk their existence. – MK
You miss the point quite brilliantly. There is no Church of the Divine Unicorn trying to enforce respect for its ludicrous superstitions. Chesterton would have been right if he had substituted “religions” for “God”.
Me thinks thou dost protest too much. – MK
Whenever I come across this kind of cod-Shakespearian guff, I know I’m dealing with an idiot. You might at least try to get it right, however: “methinks” is one word.
Dutch@2313: The events at Fatima occurred in 1917 from May to October.
I agree that you can’t use it as defense of belief (a Catholic saying this), but you can’t say “Thats the kid who predicted WWII after it started right? Wow.”
I wasn’t going to make any major investments of of time, money, or effort in treating these dabs of unpleasantness as they deserve
Ok, that’s a lie, you’ve gotten a few good web posts out of this, more hits than you ever did on your life, you’ve knowingly opened yourself up to threats, and for what? To claim the title of internet tough guy? That nothing bad will happen to you if insult a bunch of people who never really did anything to you? Performance artists have been tweaking the noses of the religious for at least 30 years.
One of the strengths of Western Secular Society has always been it’s ability to differentiate legitimate discussion and attention whores.
Thanks again, P.Z.
This thread does a great job of showing the insanity and vileness of religion in general.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger!
There’s a difference between sanctity and value/importance. Sanctity is to imagine that there’s a big guy/girl/spirit up there that wants you to venerate him/her/it. Value/importance is simply that it’s important to you, through love or care or simply your moral values. For instance, life is important.
A great example is Abraham. Remember? God, the sacred man, told Abraham “go kill your kid for me.” and Abraham went to do it. God aborted the process but Abraham still wanted to do it without blinking. So in this light, the Bible states that God comes before everyone or everything you love or care for.
There’s also the instance where the Bible says you have to kill everyone that disses god or prays to other gods and tries to drag you into it, EVEN YOUR FAMILY. That’s in Deuteronomy.
Someone with right values, that is that LIFE is more important than CULTS, would never do that. But the bible PRAISES such things, and thus a Christian that is a true christian HAS to follow the law written in his book… To put the sacred Lord and the word of the sacred book before everything you value dearly, such as your kids.
Nothing is sacred, and with that in mind you won’t (unless you’re batshit insane) stone your wife/husband and kids or some stranger on the street that has a different religion. But value life, value goodness, value truth. I’m an atheist and as an atheist I have morals.
Oh yes, much more dangerous to criticize Catholicism than Islam, just ask Salmon Rushdie, or Theo Van Gogh if he were around to ask…
Frankly if the fckwits promulgating these death god dogmas don’t come to their senses soon we’ve all had it. Never mind the black death, AIDS, gigantic meteors, ice ages, global warming etc. The biggest threat to humankind is the execrable stupidity that is forced into the minds of our children by the sickness that is state sponsored religion.
Wat strikes me when reading Donohue’s reaction to this blog post (great one, by the way, PZ) is his quote for the university policy. Donohue quotes:
Notice the “…” causing the word religion (just before the “…”) to attract the attention. But also, by using the “…” he conviently leaves out something very crucial. For comparison, here’s the complete sentence:
The sneeky bastard. He deliberately left out gender, martial status and sexual orientation. Just to name a few subjects the church discriminates on all the time!! I bet he did that on purpose.
Was I the only one to notice this?
Keep up the good work, PZ!
Moses #2248: “Ironically, fool, you are the one that is wrong. 1215 is accepted as the historical beginning of the Eucharist.”
If that’s correct, then I can’t help but wonder how St. Justin could write in 150 that “…the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus.”
Or how the Apostolic Constitutions of the late 4th century could mention this: “Let the bishop give the oblation, saying, The body of Christ; and let him that receiveth say, Amen. And let the deacon take the cup; and when he gives it, say, The blood of Christ, the cup of life; and let him that drinketh say, Amen.”
Or how Catholic theologians could have complicated debates on the exact nature of the transubstantiation in the late 11th century.
Re Jim1138 @ #2196:
No, Jim, there’s (as far as I know) no “natural” way of testing whether a particular host is consecrated without considering its history. While God may of course decide to zap you if you peed on one, that would be a “super-natural” singular event at His pleasure, not a “natural” experiment repeatable at your (dis)pleasure.
Re clinteas @ #2197:
Naturally what you end up believing in religious matters is strongly influenced, sometimes determined, by your upbringing, and on a larger scale by the social and historical forces shaping your society. That however implies strictly nothing about the truth value of those beliefs. If someone indoctrinated you to believe that the area of a circle is pi*r^2, then even though you may have no idea how to prove this belief, you would still be correct. Furthermore, there is really no doubt that humans are by nature pragmatic religion-ists, who tend to believe in something or the other without necessarily being dedicated to it beyond its social functions. Both fervent faith and atheism are cultivated stances deviating from the average one observes throughout most of human history and places. But statistics once more cannot identify truth here.
Re black wolf @ #2199:
Repetition of enlightenment propaganda about medieval times doesn’t make it true. For example, the recovery of Greek philosophy was certainly well on the way when St Thomas Aquinas pioneered the use of Aristotle in theology in the 13th century. Here is a bit of a counterweight to the usual claims (probably a bit one-sided as well, but so is the story you’ve been taught to believe…).
Re melior @ #2205:
I was not making excused for anyone, certainly not for Christians making death threats. I was simply worrying that Christians may be tempted to evil, endangering their souls as much as Prof. Myers’ well-being. They won’t get off the hook (with God or for that matter human law) just because Prof. Myers did evil first, if they act imprudently.
Re dinkum @ #2277:
No, people are going ballistic because Prof. Myers demonstrates publicly in both word and deed that he doesn’t give a shit about their emotions and has nothing but contempt for some of their most cherished beliefs.
MK wrote:
Funny, that sounds to me like the sort of thing that christians say Jesus would have heard from the church leaders of his time.
‘You want to what? Tell stories? Consort with lepers and prostitutes? Heal the sick? Preach forgiveness? Oh Jesus, son of Joseph – you have too much time on your hands.’
One of the lessons any decent thinking person could take from the stories about Jesus it’s that it’s good to have someone around to piss off the religious establishment, as they’re likely to be corrupt, parasitic, and do absolutely nothing good for anyone.
What no pizza? You’re going to offend the followers of the Invisible Pink Unicorn – oh wait you’ve done that already.
Truly inspiring.
Adding Richard Dawkins book was a nice touch.
No gods, no masters!
I nominate the dipshit “Ed” for the Anti-Molly. It’s a true fucktard delux.
Brandon:
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4110
Or listen:
http://skeptoid.com/audio/skeptoid-4110.mp3
I might not be perfectly accurate in my derision, I’ll take that chance.
What no pizza? You’re going to offend the followers of the Invisible Pink Unicorn – oh wait you’ve done that already.
Truly inspiring.
Adding Richard Dawkins book was a nice touch.
No gods, no masters!
The amount of historical illiteracy by so-called rational people is incredible. Here are theee books by Jews which set the record straight on the Catholic Church, and in particular Pius XII, and the neo-pagan Hitler – one of whose goals was the extermination of Christianity when he no longer needed German Catholic fodder for his army.
Rabbi David Dalin, The Myth of Hitlers Pope
Pinchas Lapide, Three Popes and the Jews
Rabbi Israel Zolla, Why I became a Catholic
Also,
Ronald Rychlak, Righteous Gentiles
But of course, none of the enlightenned ones will read these, since facts might cloud their pontificating.
I agree that you can’t use it [Fatima] as defense of belief (a Catholic saying this), but you can’t say “Thats the kid who predicted WWII after it started right? Wow.” – Brandon
Well, yes, you can. Much has been made of the “second secret” including a prophecy of WW2, but this “secret” was not revealed until August 1941.
I love all the cries for religious tolerance. Maybe PZ’s religion is a religion which involves the desecration other religions? Where is your tolerance now?
It was worth the wait. :)
Well done, PZ. You have written an exceptional piece here, hopefully the start of a new enlightenment.
Thing of beauty.
MK at 2309,
“What amazes me, is that you have put so much effort into something that you don’t even believes exists.
I myself, do not believe in unicorns. But it would never occur to me to stab one with a rusty nail nor risk my reputation trying to debunk their existence. Me thinks thou dost protest too much.”
Well, I bet you would complain if your society was run by a bunch of people who believed in unicorns. If you would be unelectable to public office if you admitted you didn’t believe in them. If your tax dollars were used to prop up the Unicornians. If you were told constantly that you would suffer for all eternity if you didn’t follow the way of the Unicorn. If wars were fought over which color the Unicorns were. If foreign and domestic policies such as who you could marry and who could get good health care were made by referencing the Big Book of Unicorns. Etc. Etc.
I’m pretty friggin sure you would care. You might even get mad about it. And when someone else was willing to publicly stand up and say “This is not a Unicorn horn, it’s just a cracker!” You might even cheer him on.
If the thread’s closing soon, I’ll jump in while I can to thank PZ for this post. It’s a beautiful bit of writing.
I hope that perhaps in old age PZ Myers will look back on this incident with regret. Ultimately though he will have some explaining do..
Here is another analogy for you to consider (see previous comment #310):
I am a KKK leader. I burn gigantic crosses into the wilderness surrounding various suburbs. These crosses happen to appear behind a larger predominately black community. A history of the town is compiled and various aerial shots are taken at great expense. These are then placed in a time capsule. After burial I gleefully proclaim what I have done. No physical harm or damage has been caused and the documents in the time capsule are correctly historical. Nevertheless, the people of the community have been violated and abused. It is a hate crime. This is perfectly comparable to what PZ Myers has engaged in.
DECLARATION
I hereby declare that from this day forth, July 24th will be known as “Anti-Superstition” day. On that day, rationalists will gather and desecrate religious objects that once held sway over them or other symbolisms of dogma. Sacred cows will be consumed in picnic style fashion along with pilfered blessed crackers. We will also walk under ladders, break mirrors, step on cracks, make fun of our horoscopes, and do all the set fear in trusting minds. Some of us might even put a mock hex on “true believers” and insert pins in voodoo dolls representing them.
This celebration will be recognized as a time when we kiss irrationality good bye and usher in a new age of reason where competent people are in charge rather than those claiming expertise “divine” matters.
Save the nuttiest e-mail for the occasion, PZ–it can add to the festivities, no doubt. (Maybe we can even (gasp) “desecrate” them.)
I agree with MissPrism. It was a great piece of text. Thanks for it, PZ. It got stained by fanatism but in the end, I guess the truth hurt them.
How different life is in Europe!
I would have composted the coffee, fed the banana skin and the unappetizing biscuit to my guinea pigs and put the books with the old newspapers and advertising material as recycleable paper.
PZ:
I’m not sure if your Koran desecration “counts.” I vaguely recall that the more radical muslims consider a Koran a Koran only if it’s written in the original Arabic. “Desecrating” an English translation may be no more efficacious than “desecrating” an unconsecrated cracker.
But again, I might be wrong.
I hate to rain on some people’s parade here, but when was the last time a human being physically assaulted a foodstuff & then imagined that this somehow proved the insanity of OTHER people? To my mind this entire incident is a perfect illustration of the peculiar mania that is militant atheism: you see, when we idjit catholicks address our Lord, at least we’re under the impression that Someone’s listening; meanwhile the author (& seemingly most of the audience) of this supposed “science blog” appear to enjoy spending a large chunk of their time shaking their fists & screaming at a Non-existent Entity. While I’m sure that one could describe this sort of pursuit in several equally-appropriate ways, “rational” or “logical” are certainly not the first ones that come to my mind. As one of those stupid, anti-Semitic, racist, troglodytic, meat-eating, etc. members of the Roman church, let me just say that I couldn’t care less whether or not Mr. Myers suffers professionally because of this (for all I know, Mr. Myers might be a very fine professor). Actually the only thing I’d like to see result from this very sad & pointless act would be the abolishment of the rather unfortunate modern practice of distributing Holy Communion in the hand. Peace out, bros; keep yelling at God, I’m sure someday He’s going to answer you!
“There is No Cracker-God, & PZ is His Prophet!”
Wayne @2321: I find your type despicable. You obviously understand that someone killing another person for a belief is wrong, yet you seem to have Fatwa Envy in that you actually want a Jihad to come down on PZ’s arse because… Well just because.
Pathetic creature.
BTW: Islamic Jihadists=0 death threats. Internal terrorists (Catholics in this case) > 100 death threats. Time to consider your sums.
Ambrose,
All your obfuscations cannot hide or palliate the Vatican’s extensive links with fascism, notably its Concordats with Mussolini and Hitler. Your church was and is a stronghold of authoritarianism, misogyny, child-abuse and corruption.
As a Catholic I am reminded of the words of an old Negro spiritual: “We shall overcome, we shall overcome..”
MLK: “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”
Wayne at 2321,
Yeah, no christian would kill someone for being an atheist or anything now days…
http://vassleer.newsvine.com/_news/2007/01/03/504714-murdered-for-being-an-atheist
OK Myers, I’ve had it. Release the hostages or tonight its retribution time. That’s right, fail to act and I’m going to Carmine’s tonight and having a HUGE plate of calamari. Don’t test me, I’m crazy and I’ll do it!
Seriously though, the stunt is stupid and you’re a jackass. But it’s been a lot of fun to watch Christians and atheists go ape shit at each other, so thanks for the entertainment at any rate I guess. (and of course to all you other good people as well).
PS to anon dude posting the kids names and Myers address…. He’s a jackass but you are truly a worthless loser
Kudos PZ :)
I love that all these outraged wailing Cathaholics go against their own dogma, which says that only their god may pass judgment.
Read your own HoLeY BOOk sheeple!
Pete Rooke! Glad you could take the time out from your busy jerking-off-while-watching-snuff-films to post yet another analogy that, once again, misses the point completely.
WHOOOOOSHHHH!!!!
Get back into your gimp suit you sick misogynistic fuck.
No,Pete, it’s more akin to desecrating Mormon magical underwear.
Theists suck at analogies. Faith can make you stupid. It’s true.
Hint: Read before posting… make sure you don’t sound like the stupid folks that posted before you. Read what PZ actually wrote… take off the theist lenses. I promise you wont perish eternally if you bite from the tree of knowledge.
articulett @ #2338: We should be doing that every day..,
Just sayin’ :-)
Thanks for making my job harder.
I’m just a biology professor. I want people to see the universe in all its wonder as I see it. I just want people to understand the predictive power of Darwinian Evolution and the Modern Synthesis. I understand that this is hard and threatening to many people. They are more likely to listen to me if I don’t declare myself the Authority on All Things Rational and piss on their religious symbols.
Have you lost your mind?
What, exactly, are you trying to prove here?
First!!!!
Man, to all the people who claim that I’ve invested a lot of time and effort in desecrating a cracker: it took a minute. It would have been quicker if I hadn’t had to take a half dozen pictures of my garbage can. As for blogging it all, I blog like I breathe, with little effort. The few posts I’ve written on this subject took maybe 20 minutes each to put together, less for the ones where I just redirect you to a new thread, more for this last one. The biggest time sink by far has been dealing with the obnoxious clot of email in my inbox. It’s strange to see what a skewed perspective some of you get of my life — you see it only through the lens of this blog, and you think your time spent railing against me or praying to Jebus is somehow an investment on my part.
What effort I put into it was not in response to the reality of your silly deity, but in response to the reality of your dangerous delusions. Those are real, all right, and they need to be belittled and weakened. But don’t confuse the fact that I find you and your church petty, foolish, twisted, and hateful to be a testimonial to the existence of your petty, foolish, twisted, hateful god.
Now I’m afraid I’m going to have to close this thread. Its purpose has been well served: the fanatical Catholics and their crazy beliefs have been fully exposed. Over 2300 comments on this subject in 20 hours is quite enough.