After all, the churches are charitable institutions, with a higher calling to help the sick and weak in the name of a loving God. They have a role model in Jesus, who reached out to those rejected by society. Turn away the needy? That would be unchristian.
Unless, of course, the needy were some sick pervert. Then it’s OK to kick her to the door; in fact, you’re obligated to reject her, even if it costs you lots of money.
Read the charming story of faith-based discrimination in a Minnesota church. Trinity Lutheran Church had a sweet deal with county social services, getting remunerated for caring for disabled seniors, until the county pulled a fast one and tried to trick them into caring for a damned minion of the devil transsexual. They signed her up, showed her around, and then she mentioned that she’d had an operation, and the good reverend had to wield his deep personal knowledge of god’s mind to smack her down.
The church declined to accept her. It said its staff wasn’t trained to deal with such a person. It feared discomfort among members and other clients, not least over use of the bathroom. And it pointed to its own theological beliefs. What she has done, Maxfield said, runs totally “contrary to God’s revealed will.”
Hallelujah! And this is exactly why I will always oppose any attempt to draft the godly into the business of supporting the social safety net. It is this pretense of knowing the will of an invisible being, which they freely use to give their bigotry the deity’s imprimatur, which makes them untrustworthy. Anyone who makes untestable claims of a god’s will, claims that can’t be verified by anyone else, is suspect—it’s simply too convenient an out. And when it’s used to make an innocent suffer, it’s simply contemptible.
The irony is that Jesus himself, if we are to believe the Gospels, actively sought out the outcast and the scorned. So much for doing “God’s work”. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Well, come now tactitus. It’s all fine and good to help the poor and outcast, as long as we don’t have to actually look at them or acknowledge they exist, or tolerate them, or…
What if you have a church that does accept any and all? Would that change your view for that particular institution?
http://www.stillspeaking.org is the webpage for the UCC, which is a liberal church — their commercials keep getting rejected by TV networks as being “too controversial” b/c they show how other churches don’t accept people.
I agree that this situation is completely contemptable — I can’t believe they turned a woman away just because she had an operation (honestly, who really needed to know except her and her doctor?). I honestly don’t think these “Christians” are following the teachings outlined in the book they hold up to be holy.
It’s perfectly straighforward: bastards, Ammonites, Moabites, eunuchs and those who have had their members crushed shall not be allowed into an assocation of the Lord. As one of the former, my only concern is that the Sunday football league in my circle of Hell will be boring, and the the eunuchs will keep losing the balls. What those curly-shelled fossils did to upset the Lord though, I don’t know.
I’ve been trying to find where God revealed that he doesn’t want people to have sex change operations and I believe I’ve found it in the book of Exodus where God killed all first born Egyptian male children. If the Egyptians boys had sex change operations they would have been able to escape his wrath. Obviously God wants to murder everyone who he thinks has it coming to them without exceptions and he doesn’t want any transgender Minnesotians escaping any possible future wrath on his part.
“This is causing us quite a bit of financial difficulty — a deficit of $30,000 last year. We covered it through the church budget, but our entire staff took a 10 percent pay cut this year, partly because of this program.”
I know that being godless, I lack a moral compass and all, but still – is it wrong that I laughed?
I’ve also just realized that since we don’t have a statute of limitations in Australia we can arrest God’s punk arse and throw him in the slammer.
Next up: Faith based hospitals, where the doctors are doctors of theology, nurses save money by praying instead of giving medicine, blood transfusions use communion wine (‘cos it’s blood, right? And real blood isn’t allowed anyway), the psychiatric wing casts out demons, and viruses don’t evolve into resistant strains.
Aren’t most transgender operations done when a person with DNA for one gender has, due to developmental issues most often, ended up with sex apparatus for the other gender?
In such a case, shouldn’t the religious assume that the DNA indicates what God’s will is with regard to gender? And in such a case, shouldn’t the transgender operation be considered no different than a surgical procedure that corrects a cleft palate?
What other medical procedures is this odd Lutheran sect opposed to? Immunizations? Do they presume that God’s will is that people should die from diphtheria, measles and polio, too?
My suspicion is that this pastor has not thought this issue through, theologically. I do hope someone from the larger Lutheran community will clue him in.
[Aren’t most transgender operations done when a person with DNA for one gender has, due to developmental issues most often, ended up with sex apparatus for the other gender?]
I haven’t heard of that particular type of case, but I as I understand it, in the case of hermaphrodites, they used to customarily remove the testicles (often without the parents’ knowledge) and tell the parents that it was a girl. This often led to gender confusion when the individual presented typically male behaviors and preferences. I wonder how this church would feel about that kind of surgical procedure. Looks like god had a little slip-up.
I’ve also heard that a part of the hypothalamus is two to three times larger in men than it is in women, and when that structure is measured in homosexual men, it is of a size with heterosexual women. Similarly, wehn it is measured in homosexual women, it is of a size with heterosexual men.
To be honest, I don’t think any kind of evidence would sway these superstitious rubes, they know what they know, and that’s all they want to know, and if you try to tell them different, clearly you’re a minion of Satan.
As someone (Alan Watts?) once said, the parable of the Good Samaritan would have a lot more power if it were updated to the Good Communist or the Good Homosexual.
Speaking of doing God’s work for him, did you know that there’s a woman in El Salvador serving a 30-year sentence for having an abortion? She has three children that are growing up without her.
And what about the Godly opinion that dying cervical cancer is an appropriate punishment for having sex?
It has to do with what you were taught – indoctrinated in. E.g., see this Saudi introspection: “Why is there so much hate inside us?”
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=13§ion=0&article=79830&d=31&m=3&y=2006&pix=kingdom.jpg&category=Local%20Press
I was reminded of the hypocracy of so-called Christians during a post-Katrina/Rita visit to my former home of Colorado. The new-age, non-denominational spirituality, and intellectual dense community of Boulder welcomed displaced LA, MS, and TX residents into their homes, held music benefits, and essentially started a mini-New Orleans-type musical community. Familes wrote to the local papers about how wonderfully their lives were enriched by opening their homes and hearts.
A few days later, we went to Colorado Springs, home to “Doctor” James Dobson, Focus on the Family, and the most two-faced Christians I have ever met. The Colo Spgs town council was considering a resolution restricting any further influx of displaced residents because “their kind” was placing undue stress on city services. Mind you, Colo Spgs has almost 5 times the population of Boulder.
Cast the money-changers out of the temple, for God’s sake – that would be a good start.
GET THIS:
One of the pastors of the very church in this article is my sister’s father-in-law!!!!
I can tell you from experience that this family is pretty nuts!! My sister was married in this church and she wasn’t allowed to kiss at the end of the service because it’s not appropriate to kiss in church. Other oddities that go on in this church? Here’s a few:
Women aren’t allowed to stand at the front of the church under any circumstances. Not even to sing during services. They have to stand at the BACK OF THE CHURCH.
Women aren’t allowed to vote on church issues.
Women aren’t allowed to lead women’s study groups. They have to ask a man to do it.
Birth control is prohibited.
Women aren’t allowed to ask questions. They’re supposed to wait and ask at home, and their husbands are supposed to tell them.
Women aren’t supposed to have any say in the family structure. Basically women are supposed to give birth and serve men.
I have other tasty tidbits if anyone is interested.
I can’t believe our tax dollars to go an institution like this. These people are totally nuts.
This church has a website with lots of information on how to contact these people:
http://www.trinitysf.org/index.php
Wouldn’t it be fun to swamp their forums, which get almost no traffic from the looks of it, with 21st century thinking? I don’t think they’re aware that the dark ages have ended.
Oh, and by the way, they’re young earth creationists.
Leah- while I have some respect for the UCC (whose HQ are here in Cleveland, so the denomination is especially visible around here) and moreover, were I to have any inclination to return to Christian beliefs (about as likely as George Bush proclaiming his atheism), it would almost certainly be a UCC church that I would attend, you have to admit that it and other very liberal denominations represent a tiny proportion of Christians in the US. Therefore I’m afraid it’s irrelevant to a discussion of the merits of “faith-based” government programs.
Oneiros Dreaming: “”This is causing us quite a bit of financial difficulty — a deficit of $30,000 last year. We covered it through the church budget, but our entire staff took a 10 percent pay cut this year, partly because of this program.”
I know that being godless, I lack a moral compass and all, but still – is it wrong that I laughed?”
First I thought, Aww, poor church. Helping the poor with their own money. Then I laughed.
I’d love to know what the new church they just built for millions of dollars has to do with helping the community. Seems like empire building to me.
Yup, Missouri Synod. Misery Synod. Send her to us Piskies, we’ll take her. Hell, we’ll even take you PZ!
I’ve been trying to find where God revealed that he doesn’t want people to have sex change operations…
Genesis 1:27 is the passage usually cited as justifying discrimination against transsexuals: “God created man in the image of himself, in the image of God he created him,
male and female he created them.”
“Male and female he created them” is interpreted to mean that God has ordained the gender set-up and nobody gets to monkey with it.
“The irony is that Jesus himself, if we are to believe the Gospels, actively sought out the outcast and the scorned. So much for doing “God’s work”. They should be ashamed of themselves.”
Well, gee, tacitus… if you love Jesus so damned much why don’t you go be a “Jesusian” or some such heathen crap. I rebuke you in the name of the Lord!
Honestly, though, the most reassuring part of this story is that it’s almost assured to hit national media, so that people around the country can stand up and say “Damn right, she’s lucky they didn’t stone her, too.” Oh, wait. I meant scary part. That’s the scariest part of this story.
Well that’s one interpretation. Then there’s the God is a hermaphrodite interpretation.
I think this:
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/6084/bigotry3jt.gif
sums it all up nicely.
Given the fact there are intersexed people (rare, but it does happen), I suspect that as usual, the Bible is going on about establishing religiously correct roles for good little followers to follow. Preachy people who hold up such weighty books claiming that it gives them the authority to tell others how to live their lives are just so many jerks.
I thought this was a little bit disturbing:
Does putting discrimination limitations on non-publicly-funded church hiring strike anyone else as a really bad idea? Like, requiring the First Survivalist Homophobic Creationist Church of White Power to hire a gay, pacifistic, black atheist for a minister if he has a better degree and more experience than the other applicants. Is anyone seriously pushing for legislation like that? The way the current law works sounds good to me (but not as good as precluding the government from giving money to religious institutions in the first place).
Peter, I’m surprised noone else has mentioned it but, “crushed members”? Ewww! I believe the Ammonites were curling counter clockwise and the Lord said “Feh!” on them. It’s in The Book!
Brooks:
I think the law he was speaking about only refers to chuch obligations where state or federal funding is concerned. The law is clear on this where only private funding is concerned (the Boy Scouts and gay Scout Leaders comes to mind).
Monado, can you give us more info on that woman in El Salvador serving 30 years for an abortion? That is horrific! I can’t believe there isn’t more outrage at that kind of thing. When will Latin America learn? I read somewhere that Lula in Brazil is trying to open a discussion to legalize abortion, but the culture is so woman-hating it is hard. No wonder Brazil has so many dispossessed children killing each other. It’s sickening, why do women allow this to go on?
Salty – Pro-Life Nation
Women let these woman-hating “pro-life” horrors continue because there is this newest trend today, of “recovering” from an abortion, “grieving” for and seeking “forgiveness” from the child [fetus] who was “murdered.” It’s just a rehash of the recovered memory movement, pimped with plastic fetuses and lots of Jesus-inspired hand-wringing. The anti-abortion movement is driven by women today, but make no mistake: it’s not about protecting anyone, born or not–it’s a wedge strategy to open the door for men to restrict which women can have kids.
“Aren’t most transgender operations done when a person with DNA for one gender has, due to developmental issues most often, ended up with sex apparatus for the other gender?”
No. One reason a woman might develop female characteristics and have a Y chromosome is androgen insensitivity syndrome. Klinefelter’s syndrome would cause a male to have XXY chromosomes and need testosterone treatments. As Fawkes said, there’s also medical intervention when an intersexed child is born, and — I think the verdict is still out on this next part — when the sexual reassignment is done can influence how the person’s gender develops (i.e. the later the surgery, the more likely to have gender-sex disagreement).
Being transsexual doesn’t require having these or other genetic occurences. A transsexual is a person whose gender does not match his or her physical sex (if the sex is unambiguous). And the study Fawkes mentioned compared the size of the BSTc. If I remember correctly, heterosexual women had smaller BSTc regions than heterosexual men. There was no statistical difference between heterosexual men and homosexual men. Male-to-female transsexuals had smaller BSTc regions than hetero- or homosexual men and had similarly sized BSTc regions compared to menopausal women.
What, does this church have communal, barracks-style open toilets? If it’s the normal stalls-with-doors setup, well, let’s just say I’ve never quite understood our culture’s insistence on conflating defecation with sexuality. Or maybe the church ladies are simply despairing that adding a MTF to their population will increase the wait time in line…
On second thought, menopausal women isn’t what I meant. Try “non-transsexual women.”
http://www.stillspeaking.org is the webpage for the UCC, which is a liberal church — their commercials keep getting rejected by TV networks as being “too controversial” b/c they show how other churches don’t accept people.
I’m guessing that they didn’t get any “faith-based initiative” funds either.
Can we stop pretending that this program has anything to do with more efficient social services? It’s a GOP scam to put your money into the greasy palms of preachers who tell their flocks to vote for Republicans.
“Can we stop pretending that this program has anything to do with more efficient social services? It’s a GOP scam to put your money into the greasy palms of preachers who tell their flocks to vote for Republicans. ”
THANK YOU. All more reason to Tax Churches
I know the pastor of that church and I’m sure he thanks his god every day for Bush…
The irony is that Jesus himself, if we are to believe the Gospels, actively sought out the outcast and the scorned. So much for doing “God’s work”. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Yes, Jesus sought out the outcast and scorned (and sometimes they sought him out), but he never told them to wallow in their sins. He told them, just as he told the woman caught in adultery, “Leave your life of sin.”
Trinity Lutheran Church is part of the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church which has a pretty conservative and, in my opinion, reprehensible view on pretty much any social issue. I was raised in the more liberal wing of the Lutheran Church, but often came into contact with the fundamentalist segment through an aunt and uncle.. I have a cousin who is a pastor of a similar church in Crookston, MN (where PZ’s wife works, the town not the church) and was in the national news a few years ago for calling for the censure and possible removal of a Missouri Synod pastor for “worshiping publicly in the company of unbelievers” during the national prayer service at Yankee Stadium after 9/11. I’ve long since left religion, but I didn’t want all Lutherans to get tarred with the brush of the wacky right wing of the faith. The “Norwegian” Lutherans (as opposed to the Missouri Synod “German” Lutherans) are “reasonably” progressive when it comes to social issues.
I’ve been trying to find where God revealed that he doesn’t want people to have sex change operations
I doubt you have. Changing one’s outward physical gender doesn’t cancel out the Biblical condemnations against homosexuality or transvestism. If you are genetically a male or female, you still are a male or female no matter if your genitals are changed and you take hormones of the opposite sex.
When my sister got married there I was wondering if I could get through the service without crying. Well, since the ENTIRE wedding sermon was about how women should submit to men, I was so pissed that there was no need for Kleenex.
Can we stop pretending that this program has anything to do with more efficient social services? It’s a GOP scam to put your money into the greasy palms of preachers who tell their flocks to vote for Republicans.
The saddest part about all of that is that you are completely serious and think you are 100% right. Care to show your bigotry a little more? Yeesh!
I know the people in question PERSONALLY and I can tell you, they’re ABSOLUTE bigots and PROUD of that fact.
“If you are genetically a male or female, you still are a male or female no matter if your genitals are changed and you take hormones of the opposite sex.”
If you’ll read a few posts up, I just talked about how androgen insensitivity syndrome and Klinefelter’s syndrome blur the definition of “genetically male or female.”
So these nice Minnesota Lutherans sign a deal to receive government money for a faith-based adult daycare program. Everything is fine until a transgendered person (male => female) requests assignment to that church’s program. As soon as the person’s original gender was revealed (voluntarily, by the client) the church refused to accept the referral. Officially,the church “said its staff wasn’t trained to deal with such a person. It feared discomfort among members and other clients, not least over use of the bathroom. And it pointed to its own theological beliefs. What she has done, [Pastor] Maxfield said, runs totally ‘contrary to God’s revealed will.'”
“Use of the bathroom”? “God’s revealed will”?
Strangely, the Christian Bible doesn’t mention the word “transgender”. Perhaps God uses another euphemism. As for the bathroom, give me a break.
Sounds to me as though the money was fine as long as the clients fit a nicely limited class. Too bad those in need expect the New Testament charity prescribed by Jesus,”For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in” (Matthew 25:35).
But the interesting question here hasn’t been asked: if a gay man, who is sexually attracted to other men, undergoes gender reassignment surgery, is that new woman still “gay”?
JMcH,
You’re apparently gung-ho on Biblical condemnations. So would it be correct to assume that you never eat shrimp?
… and indeed, exactly what was her sin?
Changing one’s outward physical gender doesn’t cancel out the Biblical condemnations against homosexuality or transvestism. If you are genetically a male or female, you still are a male or female no matter if your genitals are changed and you take hormones of the opposite sex.
What about those who are genetically male (XY) but are born with a female appearance? Before modern genetics they had no way of knowing what chromosomes they have, so does God want them to use the little boys or the little girls’ room? There are also “XX men” who were born that way.
….So would it be correct to assume that you never eat shrimp?
… or wear clothing made of a blend of fibers, or take a cat and a dog out for a walk, or wear pearls, or eat rare beef, or eat a burger and a milkshake, or love your parents, or refrain from killing your disobedient children, or pray in public, or avoid giving away all of your posessions?
These asshats are far more frightening than any terrorist.
The irony is that Jesus himself, if we are to believe the Gospels, actively sought out the outcast and the scorned. So much for doing “God’s work”. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Yeah, and I thought pretty much everybody did things that runs totally “contrary to God’s revealed will.”
Well, come now tactitus. It’s all fine and good to help the poor and outcast, as long as we don’t have to actually look at them or acknowledge they exist, or tolerate them, or…
Or build new bathrooms for them, apparently.
Another circumstance for gender ambiguity is a failed-twin XX/XY karyotype.
For more information on transsexuality, a good place to start is with Lynn Conway, who as a male in the late 60’s was one of the pioneers in the production of computer chips for IBM, was severly depressed, had gender reassignment surgery, went “stealth” and eventually outed herself when she was an Associate Dean of Engineering at U Mich. She gives a lot of information about the biology of transsexuality.
You’ve misunderstood the motivation behind sexual reassignment surgery, I think (The gender isn’t being reassigned, just the sex. Both are used, but I think SRS is more correct). Saying that a man undergoes SRS and becomes a woman is innacurate. The person’s gender is, say, female regardless of her sex. So if the “gay man” was actually a mtf transsexual then she would, in fact, be a heterosexual woman both before and after the SRS.
This could really turn into a big semantic debate, but I think that’s how the issue is usually addressed.
If you’ll read a few posts up, I just talked about how androgen insensitivity syndrome and Klinefelter’s syndrome blur the definition of “genetically male or female.”
But that’s not what we’re dealing with here, is it? Genetic defects are an entirely different issue.
You’re apparently gung-ho on Biblical condemnations. So would it be correct to assume that you never eat shrimp?
Actually, I don’t eat shrimp out of preference. What’s next? Do I shave? Do I wear clothes of two different fabrics?
Seriously, have you ever used your brain and researched the difference between the Old and New Covenants? I mean outside of what Internet Infidels or whatever atheist website you prefer tells you to believe?
It is, really. The entire issue is viewing intersexed and transgendered as “defects.” For your consideration:
“Ambiguous Sex”–or Ambivalent Medicine?
How Sexually Dimorphic Are We?
Roughly 1 in 100 people’s bodies differ from what is considered standard male and female. People try to corral gender and sex into two distinct groups, but both gender and sex are on a spectrum. You can’t identify a core “thing” that says “That’s a male” or “That’s a female.” Because they’re in such a minority they’re defects? No. They’re differences.
JMcH,
Having gone to Catholic School, and having lived in Arkansas for a few years, I’m pretty familiar with both the Old and New Testament. From what I can figure, God the Father was the one who said things like “thou shalt not eat a cheeseburger” and “thou shalt slay those people over there.” Jesus for the most part went along, though he introduced a bit more forgiveness, and I note, communism, into the mix. (If you read the Acts of the Apostles, its pretty clear they were living a communist lifestyle, and God himself was enforcing it – remember, God slew that dude (Ananeas?) and his wife because they tried to hold back some of their wealth when they joined the community.)
Then, along comes Paul and he says: “God and Jesus were both wrong. You don’t need any of that to be a Christian.”
Seems kinda odd to a non-believer.
I’ve tried. Have you?
Have you tought about the implications of the differences? A few thousand years ago, it was okay to sell your daughter into slavery, for the right price. It was obligatory for certain people to commit genocide, and to sacrifice animals to appease their God.
And oh yeah, foreskins and menstruation were a very big deal. Very big. Fires and carrying things on the Sabbath, too. Kill people who pick up sticks on the wrong day.
Now, for at least most people, those rules no longer apply. Why not? And why did they ever apply to anybody? Given those reasons, whatever they might be, why do they not apply now?
Why is genocide obligatory at some times, for some people, and apparently forbidden for most people most times? Why is polygamy okay sometimes, for some people, and apparently not okay for most folks?
Why is slavery assumed, in both the Old and New Testaments? (Even in the NT, Paul returns a fugitive slave to his master, but with a note saying please don’t be too harsh with him. Where’s the “Oh, and by the way, slavery should be abolished”?)
How, exactly, does substitutional punishment work?
Why did god commit genocide on several occasions, including one in which he killed damned near every person, mammal, reptile, etc. on the planet?
What does the rainbow really signify? An “oops, sorry! My bad!” or an “I’m sure I got it right this time and won’t wipe this batch out like I did the last one, which I fucked up”?
Why was Abraham a hero for being willing to commit child sacrifice?
Why is child sacrifice the defining event of the New Testament, and a very good thing? (Apparently the BESTEST thing, EVAR.)
How, exactly, does substitutional punishment work? Who demands it? Why? What good does it do?
I don’t think that it makes them entirely untrustworthy; it’s just that religious organizations must be subject to the same antidiscrimination rules as other government contractors. Of course at the federal level those rules could use a bit of shoring up with regard to gender classifications (for example, placing sexual orientation in that category where it should be).
Anyway, the point of Bush’s “faith-based initiatives” is to funnel money to religious organizations without any of those bothersome restrictions. This way they can deny social services to gays, transexuals, single mothers, women who have had abortions, even people of a different political or religious sect. In essence, we’re paying for these groups to advance their religious mission.
“Changing one’s outward physical gender doesn’t cancel out the Biblical condemnations against homosexuality or transvestism. If you are genetically a male or female, you still are a male or female no matter if your genitals are changed and you take hormones of the opposite sex.”
How do you know? What evidence do you have that God basis gender upon your chromosomes and not your genitalia? I have a searchable bible but it’s not much help on this point. Since God and his minions seem rather obsessed with genitalia and what you do with them, don’t you think it’s more likely that God is more interested in what’s in your pants than in your nuclei?
And what gender do you think is the true, God-given one in cases of genetic defects?
A XY female may be outwardly female and believe herself to be one. The “genetic defect” that they lack an uterus may be discovered late or never. Would it be ok for her to have a sex change operation, when it is discovered that she is genetically male?
What about hermafrodites? Should they be operated to match their genetic sex, left as they are, or should the parents flip a coin?
The hate on this blog makes it nigh impossible to carry on a meaningful, rational, intelligent discussion. Why do I bother?
People point out that gender is more complicated than you think, that it’s not as simple as picking out a Y chromosome, that there are multiple ways sex can be defined, and you call that “hate”?
I guess that makes sense. Your deluded kind do find facing reality hateful.
I would have pointed those Lutherans to Isaiah 56:3ff:
…neither let the eunuch say: ‘Behold, I am a dry tree.’
For thus saith the L-RD concerning the eunuchs that keep My sabbaths, and choose the things that please Me, and hold fast by My covenant:
Even unto them will I give in My house and within My walls a monument and a memorial better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting memorial, that shall not be cut off.
Happy Passover, everyone!
JMcH, you specifically said:
If you are genetically a male or female, you still are a male or female no matter if your genitals are changed and you take hormones of the opposite sex.
You equated gender with genetics, implying (I guess?) that God does the same.
Then A Lurker pointed out that gender is not genetically an either/or phenomenon, and you claimed that was simply a matter of “defects”.
Need I remind you that this is a developmental biologist’s weblog, and that it’s well known that development, especially hormonal influences during development, can affect physical and behavioral traits associated with gender? Regardless of genetics?
I would suggest you would be stretching the definition of “defect” to apply it in these circumstances (and frankly, that you’ve already stretched it in biological terms as you’ve applied it). I’d also suggest you’re appealing to biology for a black-and-white distinction to support a notion informed by faith, when biology is notoriously technicolor.
JMcH:
I do not hate you.
Keep that in mind when I tell you that you are a liar. You just claimed that hate directed at you on this blog has made it nigh impossible for you to carry a meaningful discussion with those who disagree with you here. There is a clear implication in your statement that:
1. Nearly every response to your comments was dominated by clear hatred, and
2. Virtually no response to you had rational, coherent points that could be discussed intelligently.
So, the following comments I happily admit I cherry-picked from the above are frothing and nonsensical?:
A Lurker:
If you’ll read a few posts up, I just talked about how androgen insensitivity syndrome and Klinefelter’s syndrome blur the definition of “genetically male or female.”
Windy:
What about those who are genetically male (XY) but are born with a female appearance? Before modern genetics they had no way of knowing what chromosomes they have, so does God want them to use the little boys or the little girls’ room? There are also “XX men” who were born that way.
Natural Cynic:
Another circumstance for gender ambiguity is a failed-twin XX/XY karyotype.
For more information on transsexuality, a good place to start is with Lynn Conway, who as a male in the late 60’s was one of the pioneers in the production of computer chips for IBM, was severly depressed, had gender reassignment surgery, went “stealth” and eventually outed herself when she was an Associate Dean of Engineering at U Mich. She gives a lot of information about the biology of transsexuality.
A Lurker:
It is, really. The entire issue is viewing intersexed and transgendered as “defects.” For your consideration:
“Ambiguous Sex”–or Ambivalent Medicine?
How Sexually Dimorphic Are We?
Roughly 1 in 100 people’s bodies differ from what is considered standard male and female. People try to corral gender and sex into two distinct groups, but both gender and sex are on a spectrum. You can’t identify a core “thing” that says “That’s a male” or “That’s a female.” Because they’re in such a minority they’re defects? No. They’re differences.
Cactus:
Having gone to Catholic School, and having lived in Arkansas for a few years, I’m pretty familiar with both the Old and New Testament. From what I can figure, God the Father was the one who said things like “thou shalt not eat a cheeseburger” and “thou shalt slay those people over there.” Jesus for the most part went along, though he introduced a bit more forgiveness, and I note, communism, into the mix. (If you read the Acts of the Apostles, its pretty clear they were living a communist lifestyle, and God himself was enforcing it – remember, God slew that dude (Ananeas?) and his wife because they tried to hold back some of their wealth when they joined the community.)
Then, along comes Paul and he says: “God and Jesus were both wrong. You don’t need any of that to be a Christian.”
Seems kinda odd to a non-believer.
Ronald Brak:
How do you know? What evidence do you have that God basis gender upon your chromosomes and not your genitalia? I have a searchable bible but it’s not much help on this point. Since God and his minions seem rather obsessed with genitalia and what you do with them, don’t you think it’s more likely that God is more interested in what’s in your pants than in your nuclei?
(I have omitted others for the sake of length)
In this conversation, these comments were impossible to respond to, these commenters impossible to engage?
Sir or madam, most of us would LIKE to engage you intellectually on matters like this, but we find it difficult when you treat us with dishonesty when we try.
PZ,
Of course JMcH considers us hateful. For any one to deny the absolute truth of Gods word as interpreted by JMcH is a hateful thing for him. Don’t worry JMcH, I for one don’t hate you, just despise you. Hateing you would take far to much energy.
rrt, lovely post thank you.
As a Gender Queer Trans-women the only thing that surprises me about this story is that the church lost any funds at all. In most states it’s perfectly legal to discriminate against for any reason at all. So I found it nice to see the Lutherans slapped down for their narrow minded bigotry.
Never mind looking for the prohibition of sex reassignment surgery, which Covenant requires unisex restrooms?
The Covenant of Ali McBeal?
You know, JMcH, you’re right.
Oh, you mean us!
Hi all. I am also a trans-woman. I can see that there is a little bit of confusion, even among those that are being supportive, so I thought I’d post some meaningful information so people can be sure what transsexuality IS.
People have touched on, and provided excellent information, regarding Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome and other like conditions, as well as intersex (previously known as hermaphroditism). Although with respect to intersex conditions, I should point out that the current practise of “choosing the gender” of infants and surgically “correcting” their genitals is a terrible idea. Doctors do not have any idea how the child’s gender identity is going to end up, so the result is the child will as often or not become effectively transsexual because they’ve been forced into a gender that they don’t agree with.
Now, regarding transsexualism, there is quickly increasing amounts of solid evidence that this is indeed a medical condition. Science has determined that female and male brains are quite different, and I remember reading an article about how when they performed autopsies on dead M2Fs, they found out (surprise surprise), their brains were indeed structured as female, even though their bodies were physically male. There is merit in saying that transsexualism is simply a particular form of intersex.
Transsexualism can manifest itself in children as young as 2 or 3, when they first start exploring gender roles. It is quite common for transsexual children to want to put on clothing of the “wrong” gender. In particularly strict households, it can manifest in the reverse (as in my case), namely greater than typical levels of anger due to their confusion regarding their gender and their inability to explore it. Can you imagine being beaten on a regular basis to try to make you more “manly”?
How transsexuals cope with their condition is incredibly variable. Some manage to completely close off their emotional selves and just go on through life in their assigned gender. Some commit suicide. Many go out of their way to try to prove that their assigned gender IS the correct one, frequently leading them onto a path of self destruction with drugs and alcohol. If they’re lucky, they will realize what they are doing and join the final group, which are those who go ahead and “transition”.
I could write an entire essay on the different aspects of being transsexual, including why so many transsexuals end up in prostitution, etc, but I think I can boil it down to one clean sentence:
Being transsexual is NOT a choice. Choosing to being transsexual is the same as choosing to have cancer, or rheumatoid arthritis.
No one in their right mind would POSSIBLY choose to be transsexual. The emotional torture one must go through for a good chunk of one’s life is incredible.
Doing simple things like going to the bathroom has caused people panic attacks because they’re afraid of going into the “wrong one” and getting arrested. (BTW, bladder problems are very common among transsexuals for the simple reason that they can’t bring themselves to pee in a public washroom) There are still virtually no protections for transsexuals, although that is mercifully slowly changing.
Combine that with the ignorant hate of people like JMcH actively trying to hurt us even more than we’ve already been… It’s frustrating to put it mildly.
The hate on this blog makes it nigh impossible to carry on a meaningful, rational, intelligent discussion. Why do I bother?
Because you’re a sanctimonious reactionary troll who just comes here to insult and provoke people, would be my bet.
JMcH: does this mean that it would be OK, even necessary, for a M2F transsexual to marry a woman to remain within biblical law (or the analogous situation for F2M)?
“The hate on this blog makes it nigh impossible to carry on a meaningful, rational, intelligent discussion. Why do I bother?”
Translation: I hate you you guys so much for not being indoctrinated.
LK:
My experience, especially w/ some family & old family friends, is that “they” have a special hatred (perhaps distasteful increduality would be a better term) for one of “theirs” who was not successfully indoctrinated.
Paul W,
Thanks for the list of questions. These are exactly the kind of things thinking Chirstians (yes, we DO exist) need to confront. In my tradition (Episcopalian)to shy away from these questions is intellectual heresy. And no, we don’t have answers for some of them and yes, some of the answered ones are answered inadequately, often woefully so. But in the words of Stuart Smalley (Al Franken),”that’s OK.”
May the Easter Bunny bring you lots of chocolate (Book of Lepus, Chpt 1, verse 3)
Melanie Reap writes:
You’re very welcome. Thanks for realizing that asking such questions isn’t being hateful; it’s part of trying not to be. (If only JMcH could see that.)
Seriously, have you ever used your brain and researched the difference between the Old and New Covenants? – JMcH
Have you?
Listening to you and other religious zealots it seems that Christ has been all but forgotten in todays christianity, it’s all fire and brimstone old testament for the compassionate conservative crowd. Hate thy neighbor the catchphrase of the right. I mean Jesus was a socialist who loved the freaks and healed the shunned, are you living that life JMcH or are you just in it to win it? God the product, religion 2.0 the glitzy new ad campaign, salvation for republicans only? You’re an old testament fossil full of fear, loathing, hatred and a smug sense of self righteousness.
Man, you give a monkey a gun…
“My experience, especially w/ some family & old family friends, is that “they” have a special hatred (perhaps distasteful increduality would be a better term) for one of “theirs” who was not successfully indoctrinated.”
That’s my experience as well. It comes built in the silly religion.
Have enough contact with online theists and reading between the lines gets easier. When they say we’re full of hate it’s because they have don’t like what they’re reading. When they say “have you read te bible?” It’s because they haven’t and want to know how much they can get away with pretending to know. And when they say “you’re going to hell” it’s because they have no rebuttals left.