It’s a too familiar story: man declares his dedication to feminism, man gets exposed for harassing women. The latest disappointment/betrayal comes from the comedian Jamie Kilstein, and his ex-partner Allison Kilkenny has the summary. He’s out of Citizen Radio.
This is heartbreaking because I like Jamie, I respect his talent, and in the past I’ve defended him. This is another familiar part of the story, that I’m too often the last to know, too loyal to my friends, and I end up being shaken by the regrets in the face of undeniable serious problems. Once again I’m caught gawping in disbelief that a friend would do this.
The only solution: I’ve decided to have no more friends forever, especially not male friends (secondarily, no female friends, because why should they trust yet another unreliable guy like me?). Heart of stone, people, soul of ice. It’s the only way to keep from disintegrating.
And a rock feels no pain, and an island never cries?
This story *is* distressingly familiar, to the point that it’s becoming the mirror-equivalent of “Anti-Gay Republican caught hiring male prostitute.”
By now “male feminist” means “run the other direction, as fast as you can” and any dude who’S got a problem with this demonstrates that he IS part of the problem and best avoided.
#NoHeros
Saw this from Allison yesterday and was shocked for about 3 seconds. I was a big fan and supporter and turned several people on to his work. I’ll continue my support of Citizen Radio and honestly always enjoyed Allison on the show more and Jaime who could get distracted.
As a white male feminist I would be surprised if anyone didn’t run away from me at this point.
Careful now, you might get slapped with another defamation suit.
You are reading this wrong. For an abusive predatory person, it is a good strategy to cover up their actions by pretending to care for feminism, specially given that accusing someone famous of sexual harassment is already hard. Build a reputation for feminism, and suddenly it gets much harder. All this talk about somehow “male feminists” being actually sexual predators is backwards and bullshit reading of the story.
#2 Giliell: “By now ‘male feminist’ means ‘run the other direction, as fast as you can'”
The problem is, what else can I call myself? I am male (and yes, white, and yes, reasonably straight, and yes, rather middle class) and I do subscribe to feminist causes.
I wouldn’t be at all offended if someone doesn’t just take my word for it. Given the amount of runny shit my demographic has sprayed over the rest of humanity, it would be silly in the extreme to take offence at that, but if ‘feminist’ becomes a dirty word doesn’t that mean a net loss?
@2, Giliell
Is there really a statistical difference between men inside the “male feminist” demographic and those not in it?
Or just…run from men in general? :P
@6 I prefer to think of myself as feminist friendly. Because in reality I’ll never really understand what it’s like to be a woman. I would not understand the nuances of all the microaggression that they receive each day. I’ve been sexually harassed, but I could lose a few fingers on one hand and would still have more than enough to count those occasions in my life. I’m sure the average woman would probably run out of toes by the end of the average day.
It angers me when women are harassed, but I have literally had it done in front of me and I didn’t notice a thing. So rather than saying I’m a feminist, I’d rather say I’m feminist friendly. Because I’ll never fight as hard as a woman would for her rights.
@lotharloo
Maybe. But should I strut into my local feminist group and assert that they should implicitly trust me because I am not an abusive and predatory person choosing to identify as a feminist for cover purposes?
As things stand, wariness is just the price of doing business for feminist men and male-presenting people. I don’t want to be mistrusted. I know for sure that I’m not actually a sexual predator. I’m not going to hold it against feminist groups if they’re slow to embrace me based on a legitimate concern caused by a pattern of feminist men being revealed to be abusive shits.
Aw, man my wife and I used to love Jamie and Allison on Citizen Radio for years. We even bought tickets to a show with PZ Myers and Jamie and enjoyed them both.
Jamie was obviously sick even then.
He seemed really bipolar, or at least had crushing depressions and very little self control.
#8 gijoel, “feminist friendly” sounds somewhat patronising to me, but that may be just me.
@#8 gijoel, I like that. I’ve been looking for something to call myself for similar reasons. I agree with feminism broadly, but don’t feel like I can ever understand it well enough to identify with it. I certainly won’t be offended if women feel the need to be wary around me. As a large man, that’s something I’ve learned to expect.
Brian Pansky @ 7
Assuming someone did not drag transphobic baggage into their definitions, I could not fault someone’s decision (particularly someone on the femme spectrum) to run from men in general.
I’m sure it does feel crappy and hurtful to men who genuinely try to embrace intersectional feminism. I’m sure that for a lot of them their knee jerk reaction to hearing talk like this is to ask where they fit into this, why aren’t they given the benefit of the doubt, why is it okay to paint all men with this broad brush, what about their feelings?
But I’d hope that those men who take these things seriously instead of simply centering themselves in every single conversation might take a moment to recognize how terrifying it has to be for those who have very real reason to fear them.
@multitool #10
I suffer of depression and have been diagnosed with bipolar.
A very ugly part of it was the stigma mental disorders get, stigma kept alive by comments like yours.
Jaime was always open about his mental health issues but don’t blame him “being obviously sick” on him being a predatory asshole.
On the male feminist idea, I will keep the label for myself. I think it’s important for my son and daughter to know I identify as one. However, we also have talks about just because someone says something that doesn’t mean their actions will follow suite. It’s more important that your actions are feminist than to proclaim it.
As always, actions speak louder than words.
I will still consider myself as a feminist, but being an intimidatingly large white male I understand and respect anyone who wishes to run away from me. No matter, I have my mature age cycling group where I can happily interact with people of any other gender identity.
Aw.
Ughh… Y’all are going to tell me that I should have listened to that part of my brain that is telling me right now to shut the fuck up, but I’m going to keep typing, I feel that to not speak up here about my own history is almost dishonest, and because I think other men, not women, but other men who consider themselves feminists or allies need to hear it, I’m going to press forward. so here it goes… I’ll try and keep it short.
As a trigger warning, I’m going to describe some behaviors that certainly qualify as abusive, but there’s nothing about rape or predation or physical violence. My brand of abuse was (is) purely verbal and psychological.
I used to call myself a feminist too, or a feminist ally, or depending who I was talking to was just generally on the side of feminism. I wore the label proudly. I didn’t go around white knighting or being the world’s biggest advocate, but I had multiple women convinced, including my SO at the time, that I was one of the “good guys”.
I largely came to identify as such from the result of thousands of hours of reading from this very blog, among a few others. I felt this community had educated me, opened my eyes to the plight of women, pulled back the shroud of the patriarchy, etc…
I always acknowledged that I had a bit of temper, but was never violent, never thought of myself as an abusive person. I tried to be kind and gentle and believed that my own history of abuse by the men in my life against me and my mother and sisters had somehow inoculated me against being abusive myself.
But there were moments over the years, that I only now am able to remember as glimpses into the reality of who I was.
I had my feminist street cred on lockdown… I was the only male raised by my mother and two sisters who persevered in the face of my asshole father and absolutely and toxic stepfather who came into my life at 6 years and remained until I was 13, when he thankfully killed himself. He was the ultimate projection of patriarchy in to my life, so I was convinced that the feminist movement was my home and my safe space, I was as much a victim of the patriarchy in my mind as any woman.
This was my mistake, and the foundation of my own perpetration of psychological damage on those that got close to me.
I became so inured to idea “I” could ever possibly be abusive, that I was incapable of recognizing my own abusive behavior when it happened. I cognitively jumped through every hoop possible as I kept emailing me ex girlfriend, even though she asked me politely at first, and ever more vocally as it continued, to stop. I started by contacting her through friends, and my friends told me to stop. I couldn’t listen because I was obsessed with the idea of changing her mind, that if she only listened I could convince her I wasn’t an asshat, so I demanded the audience, and her telling me no was not convincing enough.
So I kept emailing, which was already across the line and I knew it, so logging in to her social media accounts and monitoring her communications was not that much further to go.
I ended up making this woman’s life a living hell for several months, she was genuinely afraid, and probably still is, of the very fact of my existence. This was a woman who once wrote me letters about how deeply she loved me.
My allegiance to feminism meant nothing when it came down to trying to get my way, and get the result I desired. But prior to that, I was as convinced as any man that comments here that I was a friend and ally to women.
I now know that I’m not, that I can never again think of myself as a feminist of any kind, and that to be able to look myself in the mirror the day I die and not hate myself, is that I do whatever it takes, even if that means being single and alone for the rest of my life, that it will never happen again.
Let me restate that, I do not ever intend to have an intimate relationship with any person or woman again because I’m afraid that I will do something like that again. That’s my penance, and the only logical result of my experience, and it only affects me.
I have maybe 20 years left to live. I’m just going to work until I die, because that’s my fate, and do what I can to help with the causes I really believe in, but in a much more distant way that doesn’t make the world’s problems all about me, because it’s not about me, but fuck man, it’s a shitty place to be in to know that you achieved and then betrayed the trust of another human being.
The moral of my story is that every man that calls himself a feminist should ask himself the tough questions before he decides to earn someone’s trust with that label.
let me head this one off at the pass “Only affects me” now, today, my penance is not further punishment to my victim, but I don’t doubt that the damage I did lives on. Reminding myself that the damage still exists and can never completely go away is what motivates me to be sure that I never allow it to happen again. The alternative is to die first, literally.
I’ve got a blog post about this going up around 8:30am (EST) on March 1st. I’m so fucking angry. I do feel like it shouldn’t have been surprised, but it was a huge punch in the gut.
I didn’t know I had enough anger to put towards anyone other than Agent Orange, but I found a huge store unused, and so… god…
It’s just so fucking infuriating…
I started by saying there was nothing about rape, but now that I think about it, inviting myself into the most intimate thoughts of another person without their permission or knowledge is just as despicable as physical rape. Rape of the mind is just as power grabbing and debilitating as rape of the body, is it not?
I’m a fucking rapist. What now?
I know I haven’t been the best male feminist, but I’m hopeful I haven’t done anything of this sort. I know it’s hard to admit when you’ve done something wrong, and it’s sometimes really hard to see it if someone doesn’t bring it to your attention. Maybe in the coming weeks or months Jamie will come to terms with it and admit it fully. I’m not too hopeful, but we’ll see.
On the subject of running from any man, including feminist ones, I don’t blame any woman, especially the ones who have been in a bad situation, from running from any man. It makes it harder to gain trust, but we men have not really given any reason to be trusted implicitly.
@Athywren:
Really? So we are now back at creating, promoting stereotypes and then implicitly accepting discrimination based on anecdotes? Nobody is saying people should trust you just because you call yourself a “feminist” but it should not be the other way around either. Yes, some men who say they care about feminism are just assholes. And some people lie in their CVs. So what?
Well, I’ve definitely done and still do shitty things as a male feminist/ally. One often only realises how stupid a thing was said and done after having said or done it. Counteracting one’s own biases is hard work, trust should never be assumed or demanded…
=8)-DX
And as usually the dudes come in and whine about how unfair it is on them, neatly demonstrating why they shouldn’t be trusted.
If you’re genuinely wondering how to support women: pretty is who pretty does and many of you are looking damn ugly right now.
lotharloo@25
Yeah, this is plain old Schrödinger’s Rapist, isn’t it? I’m male and look reasonably intimidating but I’m not a rapist so why should I modify my behaviour when walking down a street late at night when there’s a lone woman there too?
For that matter, why should I modify my behaviour when there’s a lone man or group of people? I’m not going to fuck with them so if they’re scared, it’s their problem. right?
The reason I should modify my behaviour is that rape and violence aren’t the only bad things. Being scared is a bad thing. Being anxious is a bad thing. Having one’s day spoiled by a clueless idiot is a bad thing. Crossing the street or taking another route is absolutely trivial for me but might reassure someone else. The decision could not be easier.
The same goes for we male feminists. We shouldn’t expect anyone to trust us and we should expect a certain amount of distrust, even after we think we’ve ‘earned’ trust. That’s exactly what this situation tells us, isn’t it?
It’s shit to feel accused of wrongdoing because of belonging to a certain demographic but we have to ask whether or not that fear is rational and maybe adjust our behaviour just a little bit if it is.
Or let me put it another way: perhaps “male feminist” is exactly the right term. I’m a feminist, I reckon, but I’m a male one and a feminist from a male perspective. There’s no doubt I’m clueless about the majority of horribleness women have to put up with every day. Even if I were unusually sensitive to and perceptive of other people’s thoughts, hopes and fears (I’m, very, very much not) I’d still lack experience. I think “male” is an appropriate qualifier for “feminist” in a way that it isn’t for “nurse” or “stripper”.
A male that is a feminist (or at least, claiming to be one) is still no more likely to be a harasser than otherwise. Unless you have seen stats saying otherwise? Myself, I would simply put little to no stock in their rhetoric. Treat with caution, or don’t, as befits their behaviour.
That’s… not my interpretation of a person calling themselves a feminist.
I think what little wisdom I have aquired in my life comes down to two things which apply here.
1. When something isn’t about you, don’t take it personally, and very little to do with other people is about you. Someone doesn’t trust you? If you didn’t do something untrustworthy, it isn’t about you.
2. Concern yourself with your own actions, not your status. Things like “Ally” and “Good Person” are status, titles you can cling to to avoid confronting the always uncomfortable questions of “Did I do the right thing?” and “What were the results of my words and actions?”
@Et al
If your reaction to this is “#NotAllMaleFeminists!”, then you aren’t actually helping.
Intersectionality come into play for me here. I understand how women can feel like this, but I will never be close friends again with a white woman who judges me by what I am rather than by how I act.
I had a moment once, of self realization and though it hurt, it was true, to a similar effect.
I have always considered myself feminist in the idealistic sense, that women should be truly equal in termsof pay and work rights, and because of the differences in biology, women should have some extra protection for maternity related medical issues.
But my jolt came from back when I was teaching women’s self defense classes. My sensei and I were the only two males we would allow in the class those days (we did this 3-4 times/year). The other female students from our martial arts school were welcome, and encouraged to attend. Some of the major issues we point out were avoidance, like crossing the street when you didn’t really have to, and trying to stay in moderately public places if possible.
Part of the standard spiel was that even of the person was an acquaintance (sometimes especially), that avoidance when alone on a street was still a good strategy. So one of the women asked, “Even if I see you walking towards me?”
I have to admit, my first instinct was to say No, of course not…..but I bit down on that. My answer was something along the lines of ‘particularly if it’s someone like me. Many men will try to take advantage of just a cursory association. You don’t really know me, we haven’t been friends, we don’t associate outside of this place….”
It was a great question, really. I think it helped the other women in the class too….they seemed to hold back less when practicing the actual techniques. (I was always the poor monkey in the RedSuit).
robertbaden, the basic point being made is that even a man’s actions in support of the movement don’t make him inherently trustworthy. We’ve repeatedly seen men who declare themselves feminists turn out to be the kind of men for whom consent isn’t an obstacle: Hugo Schwyzer, Jan Ghomeshi, and Jamie from the OP.
So what actions can you take to earn trust? There’s no shortcut: over time, be a person who’s safe to be around, and you’ll earn that trust from a lot of women. Some, for good reason, can’t ever trust a man again.
As noted above, the key principle here isn’t intersectionality, but ” if it’s not about you, don’t make it about you.” And that women are not video games, we do not unlock as playable because you completed a couple of side missions.
Gods, this is exhausting.
We’Re here in round number I’ve lost count of “feminist men” using our trust and their knowledge of feminism, rape culture, gaslighting and one million other tools from the abuser arsenal in order to assault and victimise women yet your most important problem is not Jamie Kilstein’s victims nor how us women must feel again, but that you might be regarded with less trust, what to call yourselves and lecturing women on how we’re unreasonable to mistrust “feminist” men any more than “ordinary men”.
@CaitieCat
I would actually take this one step further and say that even just earning trust as a goal can be a step in the wrong direction. That can be a way of making it about you.
Look, the problem with wolves in sheep’s clothing is that by the time you’re close enough to discern the fangs, you’re dinner.
Male feminists can be supportive…from a distance, in brightly lit rooms, around other people and maybe in closer situations with women who know them very, very well.
Being a feminist is like, well, it’s like opposing child labor. It’s a political position. The personal is political, but that doesn’t mean people live up to their own stated standards.
Plenty of people who employ child labor claim to oppose it. Some of them may actually oppose it and rationalize their behavior in their heads in some twisted way. Others are just being dishonest.
You don’t even need to put the adjective “male” in front of feminist for this to be true of feminists. There are female self-described “feminists” who have been well-documented abusers too; Marion Zimmer Bradley is now infamous. This was also one of the unfortunate discoveries of the 1970s lesbian separatists. Most of them thought they would create a utopia without men, only to discover that female abusers exist too, and in many places the abusers promptly moved in and took over. I’ve read some rather long academic essays on this history, for some reason.
Abusers love to hide in perceived safe spaces, which is why I’ve always thought there aren’t really any safe spaces at all and the concept as usually presented is non-viable. (Creating *not-openly-hostile spaces* is certainly possible and desirable but the abusers can and will move in on them, and everyone should always be wary.)
I guess I go by the X Files slogan: “Trust no one”. A certain level of distrust is always, always, *always* appropriate.
Just because someone declares that they believe some principles doesn’t mean they actually live by them. Or that they will be the same next week; I mean, we already know people’s personalities can change radically due to drugs or injuries.
If you know someone well, you may be able to trust them to keep behaving the way they have been behaving. If your evidence is limited, for instance you only know how they behave in your presence (or in a particular environment), then you can only predict how they will behave in your presence (or in that particular environment). Anything else is… a highly questionable extrapolation. A leap of faith.
As for “male feminists”, well, I’m male, and I’m a feminist, and the issue I focus personally on when I am trying to do something to improve society is society’s abusive social standards for boys. (You know the stuff, I assume: “boys don’t cry”, “be tough”, denigration of anything perceived as “feminine”, getting sexually harassed for being perceived as “gay” or “feminine”, etc. I don’t think we should expect women to do the advocacy on these issues!) Because that’s what personally impacted me. I’m happy to sign a petition or contribute to any other feminist cause I agree with, and obviously it’s wrong to stay silent when I see sexist behavior so I speak up, but it would be inappropriate and strange to take a leading position of any sort. George Catt was a suffragist, but did not attempt to hog the spotlight…
Which is why I get suspicious of any “male feminist” who attempts to take a spotlight or get a big microphone on “women’s issues”. At the very least there’s narcissism involved in doing that.
Just gonna quote myself here.
Whole lotta man centering still going on, I see.
Re: “feminist men”.
You don’t get to label yourself feminist. Your actions will determine if OTHERS refer to you that way, and that’s what matters here; anything else is marketing. Yes, there are times where it may be advantageous to identify yourself as a feminist as shorthand in a conversation, but never forget the gaps between marketing and reality. Wouldn’t a man who had truly committed themselves to the goals and ideals of feminism respond to “are you a feminist?” with “I try to be; ask them to see how I’m doing”?
Yes, that puts you as beholden to a set of ideals for all time. That’s fine: feminism isn’t a high school history test you have to pass once, it’s a way to live. Yes, it also puts your behaviour under the microscope permanently. This is also fine: you don’t get to call yourself a sailor if you never go to sea.
As a man my life does indeed center around me, that seems unavoidable. My words and actions are limited in reach and start outwards from me. My duties are to act and speak out where I see injustices done and to help when asked. I also have to leave room for fearful people to get away as fast as they feel the need to. But then my mental health requires me to have an amount of human contact and so if some women I know show appreciation for my words and deeds I am grateful. Abusing that trust gained is not worth the observed pain for me. I am human and fallible but I try to do my best. If that isn’t good enough for you then that’s the opinion you’re entitled to have.
Really?
In every single action and interaction? Is cooking dinner centred around you? Playing a game with a kid? Having a discussion about men abusing women?
@Holms, 30
That’s ok. I wasn’t responding to you. Nor was I necessarily writing without a hint of hyperbole.
@lotharloo, 25
Nope.
Then what are you complaining about?
Incidentally, why is it that the last discussion I remember having with you – although I know we’ve had at least once since because I remember remembering this – involved you defending the idea that all Muslims and refugees should be viewed as a threat to western women, after a number of commenters here pointed out the cynical misuse of feminist-sounding phrases by alt right sources (although I think this was before the term “alt right” was widely used?) to promote abject bigotry while you are currently portraying women’s actually justified wariness around men as stereotyping and discrimination?
So, if you’re at a kid’s birthday party, you make the event and conversations all about you? If someone says something scared them, you make the conversation entirely about your fears?
That would be an entirely stupid reading of my position. If I am invited to a birthday party as a guest I certainly shouldn’t expect to be the center of attention. In fact, my presence would be expected to add to the enjoyment of the kid in question. None the less my personal experience cannot be erased. Did I see the kid enjoy my presence/my present? If not, why am I here? Perhaps if I ruin the kid’s enjoyment I’m better off sneaking off? Is anyone else happy or offended by my presence? If Great Aunt Tilda is going to be present, am I better off politely declining the invitation because I always argue with her? Empathy matters, and it comes from within by personal observation.
Well then, you should understand when people have been saying that the comments have become very much man centering.
@Lofty, 46
There’s a difference between you thinking about yourself and how you interact with people in the situations in which you find yourself, and making yourself and your feelings the focus of a discussion.
Giliell, did you read the words “my” life? That doesn’t mean that I am more important that anyone around me. it does mean though that my presence has effects that ripple outwards and reflect back to me. My partner cooks dinner for 3 people. If I am not present she cooks for 2. I thank her profusely for her efforts when she makes them. I observe that she loves seeing people enjoying her food. Seeing a kid enjoy a mutual game is itself a personal joy. Discussions about men abusing women requires me to make quick decisions on who my words would hurt or help. I am not a machine, I am an individual as well as a temporary member of various groups. I can leave a group every single day but I can leave my body only once.
OK I’ve said enough, sorry to have interrupted.
My life centers around me.
Holy. Fucking. Shit.
The story PZ posted is about how Jamie Kilstein manipulated and abused a whole ton of women (including Allison, because he must have been, at the very least, manipulating her and lying to her so that she didn’t see it… which, frankly, puts a whole lot of pre-divorce CR episodes in a rather disturbing context… not to mention the most recent episode, where Jamie *spit* announced his departure and Allison was so obviously uncomfortable, being sarcastic, and, especially when he started “crying” [FUCK YOU ASSHOLE], speaking through gritted teeth).
And yet here we are, arguing over WHAT ABOUT TEH MENZ?!?!?!?!?
Gilliel is 100% correct.
This isn’t about the fucking men. Men, this fucking isn’t about us.
Fucking stop centering yourselves and get back to the fucking issue at hand:
Jamie Kilstein is yet another fucking straight cis male d00d who called himself a feminist publicly and abused a whole load of women where people couldn’t see. This necessitates a conversation about trust, specifically women trusting men. Can any space be truly safe when men are involved? That is the fucking topic; not us men and our fucking precious feelings.
Do not #NotAllMen this. You’re not helping.
———————————————————————–
As for this from Gilliel at #2:
All I can say is that I agree 100%.
Yes, Lofty, you have.
The whole conversation in this thread:
Women: We’ve become disappointed with “feminist men”. Too many use feminism to gain access to women and then abuse them.
Men: #not all feminist men (about 20 times)
Women: Stop making this about you, making your feelings more important than women’s justifiable fears.
Lofty: But my life is about me!
Did your comment add anything useful to the discussion? Did it even acknowledge the pain and fear and disappointment the women are feeling? Or did it again make the discussion about you as a man?
Wow.
The story PZ posted is about how Jamie Kilstein manipulated and abused a whole ton of women (including Allison, because he must have been, at the very least, manipulating her and lying to her so that she didn’t see it… which, frankly, puts a whole lot of pre-divorce CR episodes in a rather disturbing context… not to mention the most recent episode, where Jamie *spit* announced his departure and Allison was so obviously uncomfortable, being sarcastic, and, especially when he started “crying” [SCREW YOU JAMIE], speaking through gritted teeth).
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2017/02/28/here-we-go-again-3
And yet here we are, arguing over WHAT ABOUT TEH MENZ?!?
Gilliel is 100% correct.
This isn’t about men. This isn’t about us.
Stop centering yourselves and get back to the issue at hand:
Jamie Kilstein is yet another straight cis male d00d who called himself a feminist publicly and abused a whole load of women where people couldn’t see. This necessitates a conversation about trust, specifically women trusting men. Can any space be truly safe for women when men are involved? That is the topic; not us men and our precious snowflake feelings.
Do not #NotAllMen this. You’re not helping.
———————————————————————–
As for this from Gilliel at #2:
All I can say is that I agree 100%
mree mree mree
Helpful hint to “male feminists”–if your feelings are hurt when a woman tells you that she can’t trust you or that you can’t be a true feminist–you are part of the problem. You are indulging in male privilege.
The first step to becoming a true “male feminist” is to cultivate humility. Put aside your own feelings and empathize with others; show respect. Cultivate silence. Listen to women and think about what they say. As men in a patriarchal society, we have been conditioned to always “have the answers”, to always be in charge. Resist this conditioning. Be slow to contribute, and respect other’s boundaries. If someone asks you to stop, stop–consent applies to conversations as well as sex. And above all else, be willing to apologize.
“Destroy nothing, humble nothing… hold that which lives in the highest reverence.”
QFT – It took me too long to realize this. Consent is about boundaries and autonomy. No one, ever, has the right to invade someone else’s space, life or experience and assert themselves. Unless you are invited into that space, you don’t belong there, and when someone asks you to exit it, you exit.