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Oct 17 2013

[Thunderdome]

boytears

This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.

Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread

690 comments

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  1. 501
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    “every human being, man or woman,

    An old movie I watched a long time ago, featured a radio host who would say in a Dolly Parton voice (actually, it may well have been her):

    “We play all kinds of music on this radio station .. Country AND Western!!!”

  2. 502
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @theophontes,

    Also done as a Blues Brothers joke.

    Do you remember the movie in which you heard your version?

  3. 503
    Bicarbonate is back

    Caine,

    So sorry to hear about Chester!

    And also the computer hassle!

  4. 504
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Coworker #1 is wearing a “rasta” wig and hat. Talking in a fake “Jamaican” accent.

    Coworker #2 is wearing a beaded headband and faux-leather dress with beading. And moccasins, of course.

    Both, of course, are white.

    ARGH.

    Someone asked co-worker #1 if she brought a joint. She said, “No, but [co-worker #2] and I are gonna smoke a peace pipe this afternoon.”

    I can almostsortabutnotreally let co-worker #2 slide, as she’s not American and may not be 100% aware of the fail, but no I really can’t because no.

  5. 505
  6. 506
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Too many periods?

  7. 507
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    The link, esteleth, click the link.

  8. 508
    throwaway

    Seriously Esteleth, that is some seriously fucked up shit. Seriously. A fucking mockery of humans and culture.

    I wish I wasn’t white so I could do whiteface and act like an oblivious racist twit with a western drawl.

  9. 509
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    I did! And you’ll note I posted.

  10. 510
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    I liked yours quite a bit, Esteleth. You might even say it was a significant entry in the contest.

    The co-worker situation made me shudder more, though.

  11. 511
    throwaway

    Also, apropos.

  12. 512
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Crip Dyke

    * Do you remember the movie in which you heard your version? *

    Sorry, I don’t. I was kinda hoping someone would know. Now that you mention the Blues Brothers, I get a creepy feeling that I might have conflated things in my memory. There were cars and the Mid-west involved in my recollection too, but I’m damned if I can recall more.

  13. 513
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    theophontes
    It probably is Blues Brothers you’re thinking of; the woman who delivers the line does do so in a somewhat Parton-esque manner.

  14. 514
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Okay, in a tangent from the scary story thread, I was inspired to write a Bulwer-Lytton entry.

    For both the general and romance categories:

    “You can’t because I quit,” my yakkity, and trashy, former administrative assistant and harlot unexpectedly said curtishly, fingers akimbo on her hips and arms akimbo at her sides, with her painted-as-any-geisha face looking as if it was trying to look as if she were the only one in the world that is after, not before, he sows his oats that a man weeds his garden, and failing.

    I think that conceiving of it as an author’s idea of a romance entry actually qualifies it for the horror category.

  15. 515
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Crip Dyke, I’m attempting to parse than last bit of that quote and am failing. I think it’s missing a verb. Or something.

  16. 516
    Inaji

    General Rattitude.

    Bicarbonate, my thanks.

  17. 517
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    trying to look as if she were the only one in the world … and failing.

    It’s the difficulty in parsing it, actually, that I kind of like about adding the “and failing”. Because the best of the Bulwer-Lytton always has a bit of WTF?

  18. 518
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    OMG, no, you’re write, Esteleth. Somehow I mangled the quote copying and pasting.

    That is wrong. Okay, here is what it should have been:

    “You can’t because I quit,” my yakkity, and trashy, former administrative assistant and harlot unexpectedly said curtishly, fingers akimbo on her hips and arms akimbo at her sides, with her painted-as-any-geisha face looking as if it was trying to look as if she were the only one in the world that believed it is after, not before, he sows his oats that a man weeds his garden, and failing.

    Phew, thank you Esteleth! That really does change it, at least I hope. The “and failing” should still be a bit of a WTF, but the sentence should at least be decipherable now.

  19. 519
  20. 520
    ChasCPeterson

    A generalized note, prompted by several–not just one–recent shitshow conversations here @ Pharyngula: if you read poorly for comprehension, can’t think clearly, indulge in knee-jerk reaction, and insist on taking everything personally when it’s not personal, I have no interest in talking to you. Sorry. Please killfile or otherwise ignore my comments in the future.

    Because it got completely lost due to the above, here is my recent argument in simple, straightforward, implication-free, non-specific, impersonal sentences.
    1. Academic discipline A has used a certain word in a consistent, unambiguous sense for many decades, before:
    2. Unrelated academic dscipline B redefines and repurposes the same word for their own purposes.*
    3. If members of B then criticize and castigate members of A who use the word correctly and traditionally within their own field for using it “wrong” according to B’s different and much more recent re-definition, then:
    4. That’s arrogant bullshit.

    *note that of course I do not have a problem with this per se (for example, ‘elasticity’ need not mean the same thing in physics, physiology, population genetics, and economics), but I will note that if you choose to narrowly redefine a word that’s already in common vernacular use for a similar or related concept, you are just asking for misunderstanding and confusion.

  21. 521
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @Dalillama

    I think you are right. (Google says the person was Sheila Wells.)

    In my own defence, let me say I was living in a squat in Holland, and as stoned as a prawn.

  22. 522
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    A post by Ophelia on FGM gets not one, but two Islamophobes. And yes, one of them is who you think.

  23. 523
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Tony

    I want to compliment you on your patience and stamina. People like StevoR just tend to get me down.

    I realise that we are supposed to let bygones be bygones, but that person just keeps coming back, month in and month out, spewing his shit all over FTB. It is enough to make one look down nervously upon entering every thread, to check that one is not stepping into a big pile of their excrement. Is it not time for an FTB-wide cage to pop them into (as the Thunderdome was once suggested to be)?

  24. 524
    chigau (違う)

    theophontes
    All the FtBlogs are independent.
    The Bloggers each set their own policy for dealing with trolls and assholes.

  25. 525
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ chigau

    Aha: One blogger might weed them out at the roots, the other will provide a soap box.

    There would be a great advantage to working together at least to the extent of having one holding tank for such denizens.

  26. 526
    rorschach

    Hmmmmmm, salmon sashimi! Curiously the Japanese manage to serve that with a gorgeous (if asthma-inducingly strong, and green) horseradish, I always thought that was a German thing. But then, they also make awesome German-style potato salad(of the mayonaise and cucumber variety).

    And why is Glenn sick, what’s with that?

  27. 527
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Caine
    There was a time when my cousin walking into the living room would turn off the TV and nobody except him would be able to turn it on again…

  28. 528
    Inaji

    Giliell:

    There was a time when my cousin walking into the living room would turn off the TV and nobody except him would be able to turn it on again…

    Your cousin has my sympathies. It’s a right pain in the arse to have electronics misbehave just because you’re in the room.

  29. 529
    chigau (違う)

    Seen in an ad
    The NFL is tax-exempt, non-profit.

    To the google-mobile!!!

  30. 530
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    Mmmmmh. This is interesting. I can get into FTB with my (Hong Kong) 3G card, but not the (Qingdao) hotel’s wifi. Is it the combo of “free” + “thought” that is kicking it off, or am I becoming paranoid?

  31. 531
    Inaji

    Gggrrmmmf. Need pencils, need pencils. Need to find the $300 to get pencils.

  32. 532
    Inaji

    Aaaaaaaaaaaaauuuuugh. Pain. Fuck.

  33. 533
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Caine, you okay?

  34. 534
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    okay, Caine. Worried for you. When possible, let us know what’s going on.

  35. 535
    Inaji

    Ogvorbis & Crip Dyke, yeah, I’m okay and not. I’ll live. I have a piece I need to do, it’s burning me alive, can’t sleep, can’t work on anything else, it’s fucking consuming me. Don’t have all the tools I need to do it. Want to scream for about an hour or three.

  36. 536
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Caine:

    Please take care of you. I love you and think you are special.

  37. 537
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Cyber-chocolate and wireless tea headed your way.

    Also, your screaming is very melodic: keep it up as long as it’s useful.

  38. 538
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Take care, Caine. ♥

  39. 539
    Hekuni Cat, MQG

    Please take care, Caine. *hugs and chocolate*

  40. 540
    Inaji

    Ogvorbis, I shall. Been dreaming, you know how it is. I love you too.

  41. 541
    Inaji

    Thank you all. ♥ Working on the bits I can get done now.

  42. 542
    chigau (違う)

    *poke*

  43. 543
    chigau (違う)

    Has everyone looked at Ophelia’s thread concerning honey?

  44. 544
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ chigau

    Yes. But it has left me a little confused. Is he suggesting we sweat the small stuff after all? Before he was saying we shouldn’t.

    It make sense in a way. Constant little micro-agressions tend to wear one down. If Bin Laden’s intention was to throw sand in the gears of the Great Western Juggernaut ™ , then he has succeded. At least this much: He has got the Western devils to chip away at themselves ’til long after his own death. He has the thespians of the TSA proudly doing his work for him, and YHWH, even if in teensy, multitudinous increments. The goal is “death by a thousand small cuts”

  45. 545
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Caine

    *hugs*

    Chigau
    I was laughing about the tweets yesternight with Joe and Aratina.
    The thing is, there would be nothing wrong with RD venting about stupid TSA if it weren’t for him being, well, him…

  46. 546
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    These are the “little things” in architecture that reduce me to tears: Public toilet in Qingdao.

  47. 547
    Nick Gotts

    Link from chigau@543′s link: Dear Muslimo….

  48. 548
    chigau (違う)

    Chris Rodda’s most recent Sunday Funnies (#83) is gone.

  49. 549
    chigau (違う)

    Which is too bad because it was really informative.

  50. 550
    chigau (違う)

    Could someone advise me on doing a screen capture on an iPad?

  51. 551
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ chigau

    Photograph it?

    (you might otherwise need an app)

  52. 552
    Stella

    Chris Rodda’s most recent Sunday Funnies (#83) is gone.

    I’m sure it was all my fault. We Worthless Goddamned Cripples

    Stella just have no sense of humor.

  53. 553
    Stella

    iPad Screenshot
    To capture a screen shot:

    Press and hold the menu button (the main button below the screen).
    While the menu button is held down, press the power/lock button (the switch on the top edge of the device).
    Note: You can also hold the lock button and press the menu button, or try to press the two buttons simultaneously. Do whatever is easiest, but if you keep both buttons held down too long, you will get the power down confirmation.
    Your screen will flash white for a second and make a camera shutter noise (if you have the volume turned up) to indicate that the screen shot has been taken. But where is it?
    The screen shots you take are automatically saved in the default Photos app under an album called “Saved Photos” or “Camera Roll” depending on your device. From here you can email one or more screen shots or other pictures, by clicking the menu icon (a rectangle with an arrow coming out of it, in the bottom left corner of the screen). Clicking the menu icon from a single picture will email the one image. If you click the menu button from an index page, you can select multiple pictures to email.

  54. 554
    Jadehawk

    Hmmmmmm, salmon sashimi! Curiously the Japanese manage to serve that with a gorgeous (if asthma-inducingly strong, and green) horseradish

    “the Japanese” as in actually people in Japan? Because then it’s actually probably not horseradish (Armoracia rusticana), but wasabi (Wasabia japonica). Anywhere else though it’s probably just horseradish with green food-dye.

  55. 555
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ chigau

    Dang I was going to post that exact same linky, but my connection died. Indeed, it is a VUF ™ .

    For Android users: press “volume down” and “power” buttons simultaneously.

  56. 556
    chigau (違う)

    Stella
    I can’t make that holding the buttons thing work but I think it’s my hands.
    I’ll recruit assistance.
    re: Chris Rodda’s deleted thread.
    What went on in that discussion was loud and acrimonious and had numerous good arguments.
    It would have fit right in here at Pharyngula and would probably still be going on.
    Different strokes.

  57. 557
    Stella

    chigau,

    It took me a few tries, but I got it to work. My hands don’t work, either. I hope you have some assistance nearby.

    Stella

  58. 558
    PZ Myers

    It would have fit right in here at Pharyngula and would probably still be going on.

    Except that Paul Loebe would have been banned as soon as he started taunting everyone with Helen Keller jokes.

  59. 559
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Can someone inform me of what the damn point is in Helen Keller jokes? Is it just “lulz there was a woman who was blind and deaf?” How is any of that funny?

  60. 560
    Menyambal

    Esteleth, the Helen Keller jokes that I’ve heard mostly used the blind/deaf aspect to abruptly present a different perspective, which is the key to much humor. (Like a pun having two meanings, the twisting seems to make our brains spasm with laughter.) Kind of, “You could punish a blind child in a different way than a sighted child? I never realized that!”

    That’s my take, anyhow. There’s probably some mean Helen Keller jokes out there, but I’ve been able to avoid the types of people who would tell them. I know a lot of dumb conservatives find humor in ridicule, rather than in wordplay, so I’d not be startled. (And I don’t tell the mean jokes that I know.)

  61. 561
    LeftSidePositive

    [re-posting since I don't know who's reading which threads]:

    Hey–I wonder if you guys could help me out? I’m trying to reconstruct the argument on the Sunday Funnies #83 thread that’s been disappeared. I got the first few from a google cache, and the last 1/3 or so from someone who had subscribed to it later on, and of course I have other people’s posts from when I subscribed–but I don’t have my own & I spent a lot of time on them! If someone has them from a subscription or whatever if you could make a pastebin or something I’d hugely appreciate it! Thanks :-)

  62. 562
    Stella

    LeftSidePositive,

    I’m glad you got so much of the thread. Your posts were packed with education, as opposed to most of the thread which was devoted to the support of creating a hostile environment for disabled people.

    I think things had gone badly wrong before you posted the following:

    And Chris: this is why it was wrong of you to post that meme. Yeah, go ahead and tell yourself that everyone knows it’s wrong and it doesn’t make you ableist…but just look at the social permission you’ve given Paul here to behave like a total douchebag and continue making a series of unfunny, incredibly sophomoric, and unbelievably shitty “jokes” at the expense of people with disabilities. The standard you walk past is the standard you accept, and this is not acceptable.

    It was really important to several folks that they maintain their sacred right to point and laugh at disabled people.

    Thanks. You’re my hero.

    Stella

  63. 563
    LeftSidePositive

    Aww, thanks, Stella!

    Did you see the latest bit of awful Chris Rodda posted?

    You didn’t do anything. I just temporarily turned on moderation for all comments because I don’t want the commenters who caused me to do this continuing their crap on this thread, so I’m moderating all comments.

    I’m also not posting any comments that people have made with links to other sites that have the thread from the post I took down. I don’t want more comments about it.

    I’ve never done any censoring on this blog, but in this case I temporarily need to.

    Now, I never attempted to post the cached version on her site, so there must be at least someone else (and by the sound of it, plural someones else!) who tried to set the record straight and she won’t let them. She’s only letting through a love-fest and putting on a martyr pose and the people reassuring her in her martyrdom have no idea what the issue even WAS ABOUT.

    I just went ahead and posted this:

    Chris, you are seriously misleading your readers. Very few of them seem to even know what this issue is about. What are you so afraid of? Let them see how you were behaving on that thread. Let them see that people with disabilities said that your post was hurtful to them. Let them see that you yelled “Screw you!” at a visually-impaired reader who asked you to provide incredibly basic web accessibility. Let them see how you allowed a barrage of disability-related “humor” in your comment section, and then told the people objecting to the ableism that they’d brought it on themselves. Let them see that no one was saying anything about you that was untrue, and we carefully explained to you why you were ignorant and how you were totally misunderstanding the nature of our critique when you kept saying we were calling you “an ableist” even though we explained over and over again that it is not about who is or is not “an” ableist as if that’s one on-or-off inherent character trait, but rather a comment on particular behavior.

    I am incredibly disappointed in you. I thought at first maybe you just had some missing areas of understanding in social justice issues, but I always thought you had integrity. I am so sorry to be wrong.

    I know she won’t let me through moderation, but I had to say my piece.

  64. 564
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    there must be at least someone else

    Guilty. And for the record, I posted the links entirely without comment.

  65. 565
    throwaway

    LSP: I have comments 1-78 cached away here.

  66. 566
    Stella

    LeftSidePositive’

    I saw what you posted at Jason’s.

    What you said above I find accurate. I’m sure Paul Loebe’s crap contributed to the tone, but I am still disgusted at the number of people in that thread who prize their degrading jokes above the real, negative impacts this crap has on the lives of other people.

    Ego. It’s my failing; I do not understand that kind of ego.

    I have severe physical disabilities along with the vision loss. It takes me a lot of time and effort to post at all. You’ve spoken for me better than I could hope to speak for myself, and you did it because it was the right thing to do.

    Stella

  67. 567
    chigau (違う)

    LeftSidePositive and Stella
    I was reading that thread before it was purged.
    You both (and several others) conducted yourselves extremely well.
    I get the impression from the comments in the No More Sunday Funnies thread that none of the current commenters read the original thread.

    throwaway
    Safari won’t download your cache.
    Any suggestions?

  68. 568
    Stella

    chigau,

    I downloaded throwaway’s cache with Safari 6.1 on OS 10.8.5.

    Is there some way I can send it to you?

    Stella

  69. 569
    chigau (違う)

    Stella
    Thanks.
    I’m working on an iPad but have access to two other computers.
    As soon as the cat is off my lap, I’ll try them.
    I’ll let you know how it goes.

  70. 570
    LeftSidePositive

    So, perhaps throwaway never proofreeds…but ze CACHES!!!

    Awesome! It seems the throwaway’s & dysomniak’s caches perfectly abut each other, so now we have the whole thread recovered. Here it is in its entirety:

    http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5619

    Thank you guys so much!

  71. 571
    LeftSidePositive

    Here is the complete comment thread, courtesy of the awesome caching of dysomniak and throwaway:

    http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5619

    Thank you guys so much!

  72. 572
    LeftSidePositive

    Um, for some reason my posts with the link to the full comment thread are disappearing, so this will have to do:

    I put the complete comment thread in the Atheism + general forum.

    Thanks so much to throwaway and dysmoniak for caching it and sharing it!!

  73. 573
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ chigau / Stella

    This may be a bit late for this particular thread, but perhaps you could use an offline reading feature (there is one on the standard Android browser)? Or app like Instapaper:

    When you find an interesting web page you’d rather read later, save it to Instapaper then read it wherever, whenever, even without an Internet connection.

  74. 574
    LykeX

    Having read that, Chris doesn’t come off looking very good. Not only does she run head first into a lot of 101 level problems, but she seems to be actively ignoring points despite being repeatedly corrected (like the “it’s racist” vs. “you’re racist” distinction). Not good.

  75. 575
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Theophontes @523:
    Thank you for the kind words both here and in that thread.
    More than once, when I’ve check other FtB blogs (I like quite a few of the other bloggers and often want to comment in various threads, but typing comments is time consuming on the cellphone and compounded quite a bit when searching for information to bolster an argument), I have found him dropping turds, as well as passive aggressive comments about ‘certain blogs and commentators’. This time he had backup which pushed my annoyance meter past 10.
    ****

    LeftSidePositive:
    I have rarely read Chris Rodda’s blog, so when I saw comments earlier about some problem over there with the Sunday Funnies, I went looking, but it was taken down. While I still lack the full context, your comments, as well as Stella’s do not paint a good picture. Thank you for speaking out.

    ****

    Stella:
    From what you and LSP have said, I take it many of the comments in that thread were hurtful. I just wanted to say I’m sorry people were such insensitive assholes to you and other people with disabilities. That shit is not funny and not cool.

  76. 576
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Theophontes:
    Wow. I have long wanted something like Instapaper!
    Thanks.

  77. 577
    Stella

    Sunday Funnies at A+

  78. 578
    Stella

    Thank you, Tony.

    I just posted a direct link to the A+ thread, but it disappeared.

  79. 579
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Tony

    It has been a pleasure to watch you go from strength to strength here.

    .

    I have installed Pocket! to my android device. It might be another you want to consider.

    Links: Android | iphone | ipad

    Though, what I’d really like would be a dedicated Pharyngulapp.

    It would have offline features – of course, but also simple means to add html/latex, linkies, own archive, cloud… etc And all by Xmas!

    {a dreamy, happy look spreads across teh tardigrade features}

  80. 580
    Stella

    Here’s a direct link to the reclaimed thread. Second attempt.

    Stella

  81. 581
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    {enter theophontes, in dark, hooded cloak, stage left, carrying a candle. the lights dim, the audience is silent}

    {in booming voice}:
    I hereby invoke John Morales to the Thunderdome!

  82. 582
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    {walks in after hearing a thundering booming voice shouting something unintelligable}

    Did some one summon me?

  83. 583
    deannajoylyons

    I saw that damn Hellen Keller meme posted by friends on FB, and I was too cowardly and tired of arguing to speak up and say it’s not right. I should have done so.

  84. 584
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Huh, where is John?

  85. 585
    Inaji

    Morales. Unzeoȟloka šungikte. I won’t welcome him back.

  86. 586
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Something happened, and I forgot. That… happens.

  87. 587
    Inaji

    Beatrice, perhaps I should have phrased myself like Morales would: I won’t smoke a peace pipe with him. I won’t bury the hatchet.

    *spits*

  88. 588
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Fucking Hell!!!! Something’s gong wrong with my unemploymeny benefits, and I haven’t gotten them this week, and after waitng 3 fucking hours to talk to someone, they transferred me to a voicemail queue.

  89. 589
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Ouch! Dalillama – I feel for you.

  90. 590
    Jackie, all dressed in black

    Has anyone here seen that Sanderson is now going through the threads here where victims have opened up and told of their abuse and what it has done to them and using them to try to shame people? It is by far the lowest shit that slime has done yet and I predict he’ll try to go lower. I’m concerned about the well being of people he could choose to target and that this is his way of making a safe place for survivors unsafe. The man is a putrid.

  91. 591
    Inaji

    Sanderson’s crap is known about. He’s banned here and links to his crap cannot get through.

  92. 592
    Jackie, all dressed in black

    Good. Thanks, Caine.

  93. 593
    Inaji

    Jackie:

    Good. Thanks, Caine.

    You’re welcome. Thanks go to Chris Clarke, however.

  94. 594
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Beatrice:
    I’m with you. I remember he said something offensive to Caine (in the Dome) and instead of apologizing, doubled down. I remember criticizing him telling myself not to respond to him anymore. Which worked. Then he was gone a while.
    No intentions of speaking to him either.

    (that magic power ya’ll have to search past threads for specific things has not been awakened in me yet)

  95. 595
    fwtbc

    Just took a look at Chris Rodda’s thread announcing that there’d be no more Sunday Funnies and it’s really sad how completely one-sided the comments are due to moderation.

    I posted the below comment over at Jason’s a week or so ago after having a really horrible miserable fucking day due to shitty accessibility and was at a pretty low point:

    Jason,

    Have you seen this wordpress plugin?

    http://wordpress.org/plugins/inaccessibility-checker/

    I already use adblockplus, so the ads don’t bother me, but the number of posts I’m reading across FTB lately that have an image as the primary content of the post, but with no alt text/caption/description (making the post completely meaningless for people who can’t see the images) seem to be increasing.

    When I feel like I have the energy, I comment and ask what it’s about, , and on the most part, I’ll come back and find either post has been updated or another commenter has provided a description for me, but having to always ask, having to make note of the posts to go back and check, and on the occasion when I’m completely ignored, having to deal with that extra feeling of isolation and unwelcomeness, and when it happens numerous times a day, it can be pretty fucking soul-crushing after a while.

    Sorry for the turd in the punchbowl, I know this is a bit heavy for this post, but basic accessibility on the web should be getting better, but it really seems to be getting worse, and I’m tired. I’m so fucking tired.

    Chris Rodda said “screw you” to Stella, another vision impaired FTB reader for complaining about the lack of alt tags in images.

    If I didn’t think it was a complete waste of time, I’d post the above comment to her blog.

    I’m usually in fairly good spirits, but some days it really feels like the deck is stacked against me. I’m not about to go take a bath with my toaster, but on those really low days, if anything is going to come close to pushing me over the edge, it’s the contempt and vicious uncaring shown on that now vanished Sunday Funnies thread. Instead I think I’ll just go hug my dog.

    Thanks again to those who pieced together a full copy of the thread and to those who tried so hard to educate, especially LeftSidePositive. Your contributions are always invaluable, but these were especially close to my heart.

  96. 596
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @Tony!

    :hint: Use google, with your desired terms and “site:freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula” (or without the pharyngula for inclusive FtB results).

    It’s the

    Site:URL

    term that makes the wizardry possible.
    :/hint:

  97. 597
    Rob

    Ok, so I have left a comment at Chris Rodda’s no more sunday funnies post. It’s currently in moderation. At the time I posted I had not seen either the original post and cartoon or the comments (it all having been deleted by then). I’ve expressed a desire to see the funnies continue ad my admiration for the undoubtedly good work that Chris and MRFF does. I also muttered something about the need to be careful/sensitive about humour.

    Thanks to the links above I have now seen the joke in question and the comment thread.

    As far as the joke goes, it got a single ‘ha’ out of me, closely followed by guilt that I was laughing at another’s misfortune that they had not brought on themselves. the joke itself is only marginally funny at best and lacks any required twist or context to lift it above being simply uncaring at best and down right mean spirited at worst. I am ashamed to say my half laugh came from a position of being 99% able bodied. Certainly, nothing I would choose to post or pass on.

    I’m disappointed that Chris responded so dismissively and defensively towards commentators who tried to engage with her. I really feel that she missed the boat on this and failed to apply her intelligence or rational thought to the situation in any way at all. The disappointment comes from the fact that even if she found the joke funny, I would have expected Chris to have had the ability and empathy to take a step back and address the issue.

    As far as Paul goes… well I started with an opinion of him that was ‘meh’ when he first turned up on FTB. His writings since that time have demonstrated to me that his opinion is worth nothing to me, regardless of the activism he engages in. If the way he engages with the military is anything like the way he behaves on blogs, he is a liability not an asset or an ally.

    Just though I would pre-emptively clear the air in case my comment ever comes out of moderation.

  98. 598
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @fwtbc:

    Thank you for the reminder, and I’m so sorry that things are so bad on FtB. If I notice graphics without alt-text, I’ll ask before you or stella or someone else vision-impaired is forced to do so for themselves.

  99. 599
    throwaway

    Paul Loebe decided to give a platform to Ryan Long (a.k.a: sole arbiter of what constitutes “social justice work”) at Patheos here. The caps lock title is a pretty good indication of its spittle-fleckedness.

    I won’t name names here, if you are following this drama on-line you already know what this is about. This is directed at the atheist “social justice warriors” who use blogs and social media to attack, insult, shame and in some cases lie about people (including people on their own side of the political aisle) over issues like feminism, LGBT rights, etc.

    YOU AREN’T HELPING.

    You are doing nothing constructive. Your moral outrage is not justified. You are changing no hearts, and no minds.

    It gets more sanctimonious from there.

  100. 600
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Ogvorbis

    Oh Lawdy! Sorry about that. Typo in the script. The part of the invocation reading: ” … CALIMARI!”, should have read: “…KALEEMAAAH!”

    (You only appear in scene IV – “The Kraken Awakes”, along with the dancing tardigrades.)

    @ Beatrice

    Morales is not wicked enough to be invoked?

    @ Caine

    Morales is too wicked to be invoked.

    (He appeared in another thread (NSC?). I thought it an opportunity to appear prescient, magical even, to the masses, being certain he would drop by.)

  101. 601
    fwtbc

    Rob @ 597:

    Don’t feel too bad that your immediate reaction to the joke was to laugh. It’s possible to find a joke funny and simultaneously recognise that others have good reason not to and that the world would probably be better off without it.

    I unsubbed from Rock Beyond Belief when Paul Loebe took over. I don’t remember the specifics, just that I thought he was a douche, so I bailed. Seeing how viciously smug and insulting he was on Chris’ thread, I see that my impression of him was extremely understated and he’s a raging douche and an all-round horrible human being.

    Crip dyke @ 598:

    Thank you, that’s much appreciated. It’s also worth noting that FTB, on the most part, is still pretty good accessibility wise. It’s just that it seems to be slipping of late on a couple of blogs, and for me, it sucks more to have something and lose it than to never have it at all.

  102. 602
    Paul K

    Maybe this has already been addressed upthread somewhere, but I just wanted to jump in here and link to this. A school bus driver in a Minneapolis suburb got fired for leading kids in prayer on the bus. He said, “They are trying to take away every right the Christian has to express our Christian belief in this supposed to have been Christian nation.” I see on Google that it’s gotten pretty wide coverage around the country.

    There’s also a poll. It’s pretty simple: “A school bus driver was fired for leading his kid passengers in prayer. Would you have fired him?” When I voted, it was already 58% in favor of firing him, which was nice.

    Again, sorry if this was mentioned elsewhere!

  103. 603
    LeftSidePositive

    Re: RBB, I must say I was never impressed with Justin Griffith either. All the defending 4chan culture as just being lulz, and then posting a bunch of Evo Psych bullshit. When I asked him why he thought those papers were good, he couldn’t even put it in his own words. When I called out his motivated reasoning in saying these papers were examples of good Evo Psych and yet repeatedly refusing to say why, he just devolved into mockery and tried to paint me as unhinged and angry when I was really just asking him to articulate his thoughts (to prove he had any)!

  104. 604
    Stella

    fwtbc,

    This

    When I feel like I have the energy, I comment and ask what it’s about, , and on the most part, I’ll come back and find either post has been updated or another commenter has provided a description for me, but having to always ask, having to make note of the posts to go back and check, and on the occasion when I’m completely ignored, having to deal with that extra feeling of isolation and unwelcomeness, and when it happens numerous times a day, it can be pretty fucking soul-crushing after a while.

    kept me going through the long, now-deleted, “joke” thread at Chris Rodda’s the other day. You articulated the way I often feel but don’t say.

    LeftSidePositive did a wonderful job of trying to explain the several problems involved, only to have it all deleted without warning.

    The reconstructed thread is now on A+, if you haven’t seen it.

    Stella

  105. 605
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Jackie at #590

    Has anyone here seen that Sanderson is now going through the threads here where victims have opened up and told of their abuse and what it has done to them and using them to try to shame people?

    I am the one who found the tweet of Sanderson’s. (I was not even looking for it but it hit hard when I read it) I pointed it out to Aratina Cage Some people who are involved with the block bot called him out for that. Sanderson’s reply was that PZ accuses people of rape. And other slymies started quote mining the comment. I called out the dishonesty.

    And for my troubles, Sanderson has declared me to be a rape apologist and woman abuser.

  106. 606
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Paul K

    poll

    No wukking furries. This thread is fine for such, even if you repeat. As of now:

    Yes 64.29%
    No 35.71%

  107. 607
    chigau (違う)

    Stella #604
    Would you provide a link to the A+ reconstruction?

  108. 608
    Stella

    chigau,

    I’ve tried twice to provide a link, but when I send the post the entire post just disappears. I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong.

  109. 609
    ekwhite

    Folks, I need to precede my comment with a big fat TRIGGER WARNING

    If you have not seen Stephanie Svan’s blog today, she got a horrific death threat from someone on Twitter – @Lazy_Savant. The threat was chilling. If you do not have a strong stomach, you do not want to read this, but I think Stephanie could use a little support right now.

  110. 610
    Stella

    http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3400&start=100

    That is the current URL for the reconstructed Sunday Funnies thread.

    Stella

  111. 611
    Stella

    chigau,

    I hope that link is clickable for you on the iPad.

    Stella

  112. 612
    chigau (違う)

    I’m going to bed.
    ghgtjbffv

  113. 613
    chigau (違う)

    Stella
    thanks
    the link worked
    it was not what I expected

  114. 614
    Inaji

    Theophontes:

    Caine

    Morales is too wicked to be invoked.

    (He appeared in another thread (NSC?). I thought it an opportunity to appear prescient, magical even, to the masses, being certain he would drop by.)

    You’re fine. My problem with Morales is mine alone. I want nothing to do with the poisonous bigot. No one else is obligated to share my feelings.

  115. 615
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    @Lazy_Savant is one the more prominent slymie tweeterers. And one of those who whines the most about the block_bot. Because what person would not love to read the witty banter between him and Mykeru?

  116. 616
    Stella

    As far as I can tell, the thread was first posted here (with comments)
    http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5619&p=97104#p97104
    and then later was moved to http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3400&start=100

    In both cases the Sunday Funnies thread is hidden, and you have to click a link to unhide it.

    It’s rather confusing

    Stella

  117. 617
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Caine

    … the poisonous bigot. No one else is obligated to share my feelings.

    The fight against bigotry is all of our fight.

  118. 618
    ekwhite

    @Goodbye Enemy Janine:

    That witty banter was Jeffrey Dahmer level creepy. I read that as a serious death threat against Stephanie. He needs a visit from the police.

  119. 619
    ekwhite

    @Caine @Theophontes:

    I agree with Theophontes. The fight against poisonous bigotry is my fight too.

  120. 620
    ekwhite

    @PZ:

    Helen Keller jokes weren’t funny when I was in grade school, and they still aren’t. It’s good to know that they are banhammer worthy.

  121. 621
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    All is fair, ekwhite, in the attempt to get rid of the unworthy peoples. It their targets gets tired, victory and cheers all around. (Look at how they celebrated when Jen shut down for a while.) If called on their shit, they cry about free speech, parody and claim they we are just as bad with out threats.

    Also, Mykeru is very well known for making threats of violence. He has been doing it for years.

    Yet Stephanie Svan is the one full of bile.

  122. 622
    rorschach

    Caine,

    Morales. Unzeoȟloka šungikte. I won’t welcome him back.

    I don’t know what happened, but isn’t that attitude a problem, coming from the chief monitor around here? And why not spell out what those 2 words mean, whatever language it is? Childish bullshit is childish.

  123. 623
    John Morales

    My comment on the NSC thread was a mistake; I didn’t realise I was commenting here (I thought I was on B&W) or I would not have done so.

    I understand I no longer belong here.

    I feel it proper to add that I do appreciate what I consider to be PZ’s generous gesture on that thread; the reassurance was welcome.

    Thank you chigau and theophontes, for tolerating me more than some others.

    To the rest of you regulars with whom I’ve interacted over the years, know that I dislike none of you.

  124. 624
    ekwhite

    Thanks Janine. I’m so unnerved by this one that I am having trouble getting to sleep. I stand by whatever Stephanie wants to do with this death threat.

  125. 625
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ John Morales

    You will be missed. At least by me. You have a different take on things.

    I like you for 98%.¹ But that other 2%! That is not original. It is nasty and not pleasant for anyone. Even if you do not return, please try and see that, and remedy it.

    ¹Where do those numbers come from? No rationality involved. I made them up John. They are emotional, guesses. I am just trying to get across how something seemingly trivial, at least from your own point of view (or so it appears to me), can do harm to everything else.

  126. 626
    chigau (違う)

    John Morales
    Take care of yourself.

  127. 627
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    Bye JM, I disagreed with you sometimes, but I always appreciated what you had to say.

    Have a good time! :3

  128. 628
    chigau (違う)

    rorschach
    “chief monitor”
    FFS

  129. 629
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ rorschach

    And why not spell out what those 2 words mean, whatever language it is?

    Praat kak!

    Childish bullshit is childish.

    Au contraire!
    Hey, you didn’t complain about all the times I expressed myself in everything from Afrikaans to isiZulu. Why all of this all of a sardine?

  130. 630
    chigau (違う)

    theophontes
    It took me about 5 minutes to find a translation for “Unzeoȟloka šungikte” as opposed to the 11 seconds it took for “Praat kak”.
    The Internets is hard!

  131. 631
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ chigau

    I understood Caine well enough by her words, without understanding what the words themselves mean.

    (I am in awe of your googlefu nevertheless.)

  132. 632
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    My googlefu has failed miserably.

  133. 633
    Rob Grigjanis

    Daz @632: This looks like a useful resource, for future reference;

    http://lakotadictionary.org/nldo.php

  134. 634
    chigau (違う)

    Rob Grigjanis
    That’s the best one I found.
    Well, “best” in the sense that after I found that one, I stopped looking.

  135. 635
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    Thanks Rob

    Of course, if I’d stopped to think that it was probably Lakota, instead of trying more and more bizarre alt-spellings in google translate….

    *embarrassed mumbles*

  136. 636
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    It looks like I missed even more troubles than I thought… See you around FTB, John Morales.

  137. 637
    Inaji

    I understood Caine well enough by her words, without understanding what the words themselves mean.

    I wrote poison asshole.

  138. 638
    Inaji

    “chief monitor”

    Yeah, that’s me, Big Heap Chief. The little bigoted digs just keep coming. Thanks ever. I’m out of here.

  139. 639
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    rorschach,

    So you are against monitors, against monitors who also comment here or you just wanted to antagonize Caine?

  140. 640
    Hekuni Cat, MQG

    Beatrice:

    So you are against monitors, against monitors who also comment here or you just wanted to antagonize Caine?

    I would also like to know the answer to that question.

  141. 641
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    Tonight’s Google Doodle: Herman Rorschach.

    Coincidence?!

    I think not. :-)

    rorschach
    “chief monitor”
    FFS

    I didn’t understand that post at all, until

    Big Heap Chief

    I don’t have a time-machine-intent-detector, but I’d hazard a suggestion that those of us outside North America don’t naturally make those connections and almost certainly don’t intend them. Hanlon’s Razor and all.

    (The last time my ancestors were a tribe, we were the Cornovii.)

    I don’t know what happened, but isn’t that attitude a problem

    The principle of charity seems, to me, to be somewhat strained. Morales has been a complete arsehole (including to me, and I’ve let rip in return) but pre-emptive sniping at–at that point–a non-participant seemed a little … harsh. But I’ve flamed out before and been wrong so, yeah, dunno. :-/

  142. 642
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    I know there aren’t a ton of American football fans here, but this is a good read. Especially if you are aware of the ongoing Miami Dolphins idiocy.

  143. 643
    Inaji

    To set the record straight on a few issues:

    I don’t give a shit if some asswart didn’t think about the implications of ‘Chief’ when attempting to deride me.

    Morales was absolutely aware that he was being a bigoted asswipe when he addressed me, and continued on gleefully. I have already stated that no one else is obligated to share my feelings on the matter. I will not fucking say that again. If you’re too bloody stupid to get this, spare me please, and don’t bother addressing me.

    I have absolutely no leadership role here, nor do I have any authority. Any comment coming from me which does not start with ‘Monitor Note’ and contains a standard template response with a link to the rules means that I am commenting as myself. Since some assholes want to insist this isn’t so, you can all spare addressing me as well. I have no godsdamn use for any idiot who insists on clinging to this moronic belief.

    I am sick to fucking death of being blamed for anything and everything. I am sick to fucking death of people thinking it’s perfectly okay to treat me in whatever demeaning manner which happens to amuse them at the time. If you happen to be one of those asswarts who wishes to do any of that, please, go fuck yourself.

  144. 644
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ cr

    I didn’t understand that post at all, until

    # 587 actually.

    Hanlon’s Razor

    Except there is no such thing as a “chief monitor”, at least not here.

    .
    I cannot account for today’s Googledoodle. I can only think that Goddidit

  145. 645
    Inaji

    Theophontes:

    Except there is no such thing as a “chief monitor”, at least not here.

    No, there isn’t. However, I am so godsdamn fed up with people persisting in believing that I have some great and fearsome authority here that I’ve asked PZ to rotate me out as a monitor. I have had enough.

    .

  146. 646
    Don Quijote

    A small voice from deepest, darkest, Galicia, to Cain.

    You, and others here, have taught me so much and opened my mind on many issues. Please keep up the good work and don’t let the “gilipollas” get you down.

  147. 647
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Stella
    Thanks for posting the link
    I admit I couldn’t stomach reading it to the end, sometimes it’s just too much for me.
    And boah, Chris Rhodda. So somebody chastizing somebody else now justifies that somebody else to make fun and abuse already marginalized groups of people who were not even actually present?
    So if I disagree with somebody else it’s suddenly my fault that this person is now making N-jokes?

  148. 648
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Stella:

    I was one of the ones in the follow-up thread who didn’t have the context, and I apologize if it seemed like I was dismissing the issue. I thought the Sunday Funnies were being taken down because of people complaining about them, not because of Chris’s ableist joke.

    I apologize that I didn’t have the appropriate context.

  149. 649
    PZ Myers

    All right people, listen up.

    There is no “chief monitor”. There is no hierarchy of any kind. Monitors have no special powers or privileges above those of any other participant here. They don’t get a stipend. I don’t even hand out sparkly gold stars to them. They are just fellow readers of the blog, like the rest of you. They are allowed to be just as cranky and contentious as anyone else: I didn’t pick them because they were candidates for sainthood.

    All they are is people who I know read the blog regularly, and I gave them two extra responsibilities: to use a channel I created to let me know when spammers/troublemakers are stirring up mischief, and to try to rein in regulars with gentle admonishments and reminders of the rules.

    That’s it. It’s been a huge load off my shoulders. Now in the morning I can check in to the monitor’s channel and read a handful of messages (and often, no messages when it’s quiet around here!), rather than going through every single comment that was written in the last 24 hours. I can trust that minor boundary pushing will get the pusher a reminder — and that’s enough, because I trust most of you to want to do the right thing.

    But now what do I see? Resentment and low level harassment. People complain when they see a “monitor note” because they feel like somebody has been put above them (no, they have not; you have dropped below the standard I expect, and are pissed off because someone has reminded you of that fact); some of you treat them like they’re Gestapo even when they are commenting at all.

    And now one of the monitors has decided to drop out because of petty resentments people direct at anyone who has been tasked with helping me out.

    That annoys me greatly. You are making more work for me. You are pushing back against efforts to improve the tone of the comments here. You do realize that making me work harder at background management and resisting efforts to impose any standards on commenting here means you are working against me, right? That that behavior will get me to regard you as the troll here?

    What also annoys me is that this is behavior the monitors feel is personally directed at them, so that they do not report it to me on the monitor channel — yeah, they know that they don’t even have the privilege of using their status to carry out personal grudges — so it just simmers along until suddenly I find the people I’m trusting to help me out deciding that the job isn’t worth it. And then I have to go digging to find out what the heck is going on here.

    So I’m saying STOP NOW.

  150. 650
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    I wrote about 2k words. Typical Seedy. It just didn’t work. I’m trying again:

    The ongoing crap against Caine, the insistent implication that
    a) she had some special power around here, when she really only had the power we all have here: our words
    combined with
    b) she was particularly ethically susceptible to abusing that power

    hit her hard, and was not OK. It was especially disconcerting (not to say gaslighting) to see this happen under the guise of making P more welcoming.

    It boggles the mind to think that such insistent implication would fail to bother any regular.

    It makes this place worse. You want this place to be welcoming, Horde? Don’t do that.

  151. 651
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    The fuck?

    I honestly don’t get it sometimes.

    We say, “We want Pharyngula to be a vibrant, active, welcoming space.”

    We have a problem with trolls and assorted assholes JAQing off.

    So some simple, basic rules to strike the balance between preserving what is great about this space and swatting trolls were proposed.

    PZ is a busy man – he travels, he speaks, he has classes to teach, papers to grade, and students to mentor, and I’m sure he’d enjoy some quiet time to spend with his wife, family, and friends. He can’t be here 24/7, watching every thread in real time. So he empowered a small number of regulars who he trusted to keep an eye on things. These people have no actual power, save for the fact that PZ makes a point to read their emails.

    And the response to this is to make this space unpleasant for these monitors? To attack them as censoring and controlling? To gaslight and needle, to whine, and to make snide remarks that dance on the line of maybe-racist-maybe-just-rude? To the point that they feel they have to step away for the sake of their own mental health?

    What the fuck!

  152. 652
    Dhorvath, OM

    I have played a part in this. It has been my response to my feelings about, and reactions towards, the monitors to comment less, and I don’t think that is a loss for me or the community. Still, I have not remained completely silent and when last I commented it was in kind with others who have made Caine feel the way she does now.

    For that I am sorry.

    My apologies Caine, it is easy enough for me to do something else, I ought to have let you do what you could to help PZ without my words making it harder.

    Also, PZ, I could have done better by you in this. I hope you feel better after a break, and at the least you can expect me not to make this worse.

  153. 653
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Caine
    You have my support, and any gestures of such as are welcomed.

  154. 654
    ChasCPeterson

    this is me once again failing to disengage, but since I figure I have probably contributed to Caine’s feelings too, I want to say a few things.

    First, Caine and I have a long history here of mutually alternating agreement, argument, alliance and animosity, but I think she knows that I certainly bear her no ill will on a general personal level and in fact would still welcome the opportunity to hang out in meatspace. Wanted to make that public and explicit.

    On the monitor issue, I admit to lifelong authority problems, and I’m sorry for the times when that has leaked over here inappropriately. That said, it’s important to note that Authority does not have to have been oficiallly granted or assigned for it to have been appropriated, assumed (both senses) or perceived, legitimately or not.

    ‘Schach’s choice of terms was indeed unfortunate, but while intent is not magic I am 100% certain that nothing racial was intended nor, given what I know about his cultural history, even could have been intended there.

    As to hierarchy, while of course there is no de jure chief or boss monitor, it is very easy for me to see how Caine could be perceived that way de facto. Part of that is due to due to her meatspace life permitting her to spend a lot more time here than most, part of it is due to her willingness to shoulder and use the limited powers of a monitor, and part is because of the (well-deserved) respect she has built up around here over many years. I really don’t think ‘schach’s appellation was inherently ridiculous; I’ll bet it reflects a widely shared perception.

    Finally, this:

    I’ve asked PZ to rotate me out as a monitor

    strikes me as an excellent idea for your own head. It’s cool to relax a little sometimes. Be well.

    [now returning, Tpyos willing, to an extended lurk]

  155. 655
    Inaji

    My thanks, people. I’ll be taking a break for a bit.

    Hey Chas, have another hug. I’d like to have a beer or three with you too. As for the authority thing, I expect doing a stint as a monitor might help. You’d quickly find out there’s zero authority involved.

    For the record, I have left the monitor’s group, and as it is invite only, I no longer have access. For the hard of thinking, this means: I am no longer a monitor. Let’s try this a few more times, so it sinks in:

    I am not a monitor.
    I am not a monitor.
    I am not a monitor.
    I am not a monitor.
    I am not a monitor.

    Got it now? Try this on for size while you’re at it: PZ does not live in my pocket. He does as he wishes, his decisions have nothing to do with me. I have no authority here, never did. Now that I am not a monitor, I’m back to being one of the peons.

  156. 656
    chigau (違う)

    Caine
    Does this mean we can expect more rat pictures?
    *hint*hint*

  157. 657
    Inaji

    Chigau, check Rattitude. :D And yes, I will try to be better about that.

    :vanishes back to work:

  158. 658
    brianpansky

    heyyy. i’m guessing everything can be off topic here, so i’ve got some confusions to sort out…

    (also, i haz all the privileges, might be relevant)

    i kinda don’t get this gender stuff. i thought i was following along well, that there’s this thing called “gender identity”. but i don’t actually know what that is supposed to refer to. here is some of my understanding i wrote a while ago (2012):

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/2012/10/hey-the-young-turks-men-having-sex-with-trans-women-is-not-non-straight-sex/#comment-19949

    how “woman” or “man” used to be large bundles of meaning (i’m not an expert on the word history, but i think this is right). they were supposed to mean a bunch of stuff about genitals, attraction, role, etc. but that is obviously broken, the categories don’t work. i find myself agreeing with natalie reed:

    “So long as we don’t have a vocabulary with which to speak, we don’t get heard, and so long as our genders remain illegible or incomprehensible to, or misread by, the people around us we remain invisible… at best, something or someone else is seen is our stead.”

    yet even in progressive use of the words, they seem too vague, unspecific etc for me to get it.

    if someone informs me of their gender identity, what have i learned about them? the only way i know how to make such statements hold meaning requires a contradiction with various examples of trans people…

    (i meant for that to be my question i wanted everyone to weigh in on, but i keep writing more into this post!)

    when natalie reed says:

    “We can’t undermine the entire system of gender. We can’t. Utopian gender-abolitionists believe this, but I don’t. I believe it’s inherent to us. We perceive sexual difference, in others or in ourselves, and we try to understand and express it.”

    it seems to me that we just need better language that is actually specific, informative, and descriptive. but the diversity that gets crammed into those words “man”, “woman”, etc is the exact *opposite* of specific, or expressive. it seems to me, we should have MORE words, while maybe getting rid or some of the broken ones? (when natalie reed speaks of gender abolitionists, it’s like they seem to want all gendered words to just go away…and leave a big empty hole or something?)

    k i should stop because if i find answers, i might understand differently. so, seriously, if someone informs me of their gender identity, what have i learned about them?

  159. 659
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @brianpansky

    Nothing is off-topic in Thunderdome! (2 ideas enter, 97.4 more ideas enter)

    There’s a lot to think about with this stuff. I’ll give you some resources in Pharyngula & around FtB.

    1. There was a recent thunderdome with a bunch of talking about gender and how to explain it, as well as stuff about what kinds of things erase trans* people and experiences. You can find it here. comment #s 214 – 229 are particularly relevant to your question here. 385 is an example of the stunning injuries everyday interactions can inflict. It’s not about your question per se, but it could be useful. Generally most/every instance of gender in that thread is good to read.

    2. Also Natalie Reed’s archive is still here, and she is brilliant. Much of what she says is very, very useful, and potentially better addressed to people that are still struggling with the basics than much of what I say.

    3. Zinnia Jones has quite a number of good things as well. Particularly relevant to your question is probably this bit which is more about what we can learn by saying “trans” or “cis” than what we can learn by saying “man” or “genderqueer” or “woman”. Still, there should be much you can learn from it.

    Less relevant, but still very useful is: this piece.

    I hope that gives you some good info with which to start.

  160. 660
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Of all the places in the world to post this, I can think of non better than here and bug-girl’s blog:
    Take a gander at this.

  161. 661
    brianpansky

    well thanks a bit crip dyke.

    unfortunately, i don’t think those talks are really addressing my problem…

  162. 662
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @brianpansky:

    Well I thought it was more useful than saying that the answer to your central question:

    if someone informs me of their gender identity, what have i learned about them? the only way i know how to make such statements hold meaning requires a contradiction with various examples of trans people…

    is that you’ve learned the name of the person’s gender identity.

    What is it that you’re **trying** to learn which you are attempting to divine through gender ID? Perhaps knowing what you want to know is actually more useful than trying to figure out what gender ID tells you? It seems you wouldn’t be curious about this unless there was something you were trying to figure out about others.

  163. 663
    brianpansky

    for instance: “gender identity is how you, in your head, think about yourself. It’s the chemistry that composes you (e.g. hormone levels) and how you interpret what that means”

    like, wut? that isn’t making it clearer to me.

    “how you, in your head, think about yourself” i doubt this is referring to ALL thoughts about one’s self, so what is it that is being thought of?

    as for hormone levels, it’s like i said, i don’t think this fits with all trans experiences. and i certainly couldn’t tell them they aren’t trans if hormone levels are not relevant to them.

    i don’t see how the definitions can work…

  164. 664
    brianpansky

    @662
    crip dyke

    eh, i didn’t refresh before posting that last one.

    What is it that you’re **trying** to learn which you are attempting to divine through gender ID?

    that’s backwards. my problem is the other way around. what are people trying to **articulate** which they are attempting to convey through gender words?

    again, the only way i know how to make such statements hold meaning requires a contradiction with various examples of trans people…

  165. 665
    chigau (違う)

    brianpansky FYI
    If you do this

    <blockquote>paste copied text here</blockquote>

    this will happen

    paste copied text here

    This makes it easier for readers to understand your comments.

    And please use the your shift key.

  166. 666
    chigau (違う)

    huh
    time travel

  167. 667
    Dhorvath, OM

    i don’t think this fits with all trans experiences

    Nor should it. People are different. Approach them how they prefer. You seem to be looking for iron rules in a fluid environment.

  168. 668
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @brianpansky:

    The terms communicate a very limited amount of information, and the underlying details are different for every person. it’s not just trans people that have varying and complicated gender IDs, we all do. From my #222 at the linked Thunderdome thread, where the link was in 659 of this thunderdome:

    Discussing different gender identities, for example, I ask, “Do you identify as a man in opposition to being a woman, in relation to being a woman, in relation to being FtM genderqueer, or in relation to being FtM genderqueer?” After getting responses, I point out, “These are all different ways of identifying yourself that are close enough to one corner that we have no problem saying that they all belong to the category ‘man’, but nonetheless they are different ways of identifying oneself. Likewise, are you straight because the thought of fucking another woman is disgusting to you, or are you straight because penises are absolutely delightful to kiss? These are different ways of identifying yourself to yourself, and thus different sexual orientation identities…but they are in the pattern of color near to one point, so we simplify them as if they were all landing exactly on that same point though straight people experience straightness in very different ways.”

    The problem is that we’re taught that the labels man/woman/genderqueer/trans/cis are very important, but that our relationships to those labels is largely irrelevant. Most people don’t think about them in a complicated way.
    What people are trying to articulate by saying, “I’m a woman” is “I’m a woman.” If you need more info than that, you have to learn to ask questions that get you the info you need.

    It seems you’re trying very hard to find out what assumptions you can make from limited information. I’m telling you: don’t make assumptions. Take responsibility for your own curiosity. Really, you can do it. It can be fun. It can be respectful. It can lead to deep and meaningful interpersonal interconnection.

  169. 669
    brianpansky

    Looking back, maybe I should have pointed out that this is a recent thing. It was only last night that I stopped understanding. Like I said near the start of 658, I previously thought I got it.

    @665

    please use the your shift key.

    Fine :P

    I’m writing more posts, but they are directed at multiple people, so I’ll split them up.

  170. 670
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    As a general thing, inspired by brianpansky, Neils Bohr, and Richard Feynman:

    If you think you understand gender chromodynamics, you don’t understand gender chromodynamics

    –Crip Dyke

  171. 671
    chigau (違う)

    me

    And please use the your shift key.

    And please remember to preview.
    Thank you.

  172. 672
    brianpansky

    @667
    Dhorvath, OM

    i don’t think this fits with all trans experiences

    Nor should it.

    Well, I was trying to figure out the definition of gender identity. Telling me “it’s not that” (“it doesn’t have to fit with all trans experiences”) is a bit helpful, but doesn’t give me understanding of the definition :(

    I’m wondering what it **is**, not what it **isn’t**.

    People are different. Approach them how they prefer. You seem to be looking for iron rules in a fluid environment.

    I know people are different, that’s why I said:

    the diversity that gets crammed into those words “man”, “woman”, etc is the exact *opposite* of specific, or expressive. it seems to me, we should have MORE words, while maybe getting rid or some of the broken ones?

    There is diversity, so what can those words possibly mean to me? The words should distinguish one from the other. But what is the distinction? I don’t know what. I thought I did, but not right now…

  173. 673
    brianpansky

    @668

    crip dyke

    it’s not just trans people

    Ya maybe some of my wording seems like i’m only talking about the identities of trans people? I don’t want to do that, this really applies to my understanding of **any** gender.

    I’m telling you: don’t make assumptions. Take responsibility for your own curiosity. Really, you can do it. It can be fun. It can be respectful. It can lead to deep and meaningful interpersonal interconnection.

    I definitely agree with this. I hope I didn’t say anything to the contrary O:

    It seems you’re trying very hard to find out what assumptions you can make from limited information.

    hmm. (This feels so difficult to articulate…) How can I explain my problem…

    Words mean things. I just don’t know what gendered words are supposed to mean. I’ve googled definitions, but look how unhelpful this is:

    Gender identity is a person’s private sense, and subjective experience, of their own gender. This is generally described as one’s private sense of being a man or a woman

    Gender identity is defined in terms of “gender,” “man,” and “woman,”. But now I have three words I don’t know the meaning of, instead of one :(

    Looking up those terms is problematic. They seem to give me non-progressive definitions. Other websites just say they are “gender identity”, which just brings me full circle.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_definition

  174. 674
    brianpansky

    and now, the weather:

    youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6mRq1xgKykM

  175. 675
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    I hesitated to recommend it earlier, but I think you’re at the point where something longer might really be useful.

    I strongly recommend Kessler & McKenna’s Gender, an Ethnomethodological Approach pioneered by Suzanne Kessler but the book is co-authored with Wendy McKenna.

    If it helps in the short run, presume that people know that stereotypes, connections to sexed bodies, and roles with rule enforcement exist. One thing that someone is saying is that they are/aren’t willing to be identified with a word that carries these connotations. Why are they willing? Have they simply never thought about other options? Or have they made a considered choice? They know people are, in general, willing to assume a lot just from that label and are willing to risk you assuming it as well. This tells you about as much as you can learn from “mere” statements of gender identification.

  176. 676
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    I just don’t know what gendered words are supposed to mean. I’ve googled definitions, but look how unhelpful this is:

    Gender identity is a person’s private sense, and subjective experience, of their own gender. This is generally described as one’s private sense of being a man or a woman

    When someone asks you what your gender is, what do you say? What do you think before you are willing to say anything? Are those two the same?

    I think investigating what your own experience is can help illuminate what others are trying to articulate.
    —————-
    also, I meant to say above that the book i recommended isn’t long, and it isn’t as technical or intimidating as the title might make it appear. It’s a really foundational text – under read but very influential. Plus not all of the book is directly relevant here. Maybe only 100 pages (out of a book with something like 240 pages, if my memory is at all in the ballpark).

  177. 677
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ chigao

    For the good order: Chigao has earned the illustrious and sought after title of “666“.

  178. 678
    brianpansky

    @675-676
    crip dyke

    Thanks for the (short) book recommendation!

    When someone asks you what your gender is, what do you say?

    I was going to answer this directly (I answer the same as when people ask for my phone number. I just pass on the one assigned to me), but heyyyy, why am I the one being asked here? That seems backwards. My question was “what part of a person’s identity is X? What does X even mean?!?” and you are replying with, “well, what’s YOUR X?”

    How can I respond to that? I don’t know what is being asked for.

    Here’s something else you asked me earlier, which now seems like the thing I should be asking **you**:

    What is it that you’re **trying** to learn which you are attempting to divine through gender ID?

    : P

    Ok, I keep trying to write more here, but I need to give up on it (for now) so that I can sleep soon.

  179. 679
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    brianpansky

    That seems backwards. My question was “what part of a person’s identity is X? What does X even mean?!?” and you are replying with, “well, what’s YOUR X?”

    How can I respond to that? I don’t know what is being asked for.

    That’s not backwards, it’s making a point.

    So you say you are _____, but you don’t know what that means. And now you even imply your answer would depend on the reason the question is being asked.

    /confused

  180. 680
    brianpansky

    @679
    beatrice

    That’s not backwards, it’s making a point.

    I know that it is trying to make a point. But it presumes I know what gender (or “X”) means.

    All I can give is what I was designated, not the meaning of the designation, because I don’t know what the designation means.

    So you say you are _____, but you don’t know what that means.

    I don’t think I claimed what I am. Again here all I can give is what I was designated, not the meaning of the designation, because I don’t know what the designation means (so it makes sense for me to say I don’t know what it means). I was designated a “boy” when I was born (based on genitals). But what does the designation mean since gender =/= genitals?

    And can we stop using me as an example? : )

    And now you even imply your answer would depend on the reason the question is being asked.

    Oh, maybe you think I said that I don’t know the reason why it is being asked. What I actually said was:

    I don’t know WHAT is being asked for.

    (In other words, I don’t know WHAT gender means.)

    maybe you read it as “what IT is being asked for” but there is no “it” in that sentence…

  181. 681
    Maureen Brian

    Let’s try again, brianpansky.

    You say that you were designated “boy” and in effect have never given the matter another thought. Maybe you haven’t. I can’t tell.

    More importantly, though, do you honestly imagine that the way you have been first a boy and then a man was the only possible way of being either? Did you not make any choices at all within that broad definition?

    What if, in the course of being a man, you had run up against the expectation of what a man is in your particular tribe or sub-group? What if you had been born onto a family which expected its first son to go into a Guards Regiment, its second into the church and its third to go to agricultural college so that he had the skills to act as estate manager when No 1 son came back to inherit the title. Except that you as that son wanted, always wanted, to be a classical violinist – still well within the definition of “man” however crudely sketched. Or you might have lived in a country where the second son became a monk at age 7. The detail is not important so please don’t get hung up on that detail.

    So, it’s quite reasonable to acknowledge that someone, if never you, might run into some friction, might get bored at always correcting the assumptions of elderly relatives or of strangers.

    Now imagine that the expectation you keep running into is the one which says that all matters of gender and sexuality are perfectly explained by a binary model. Biology says it is not true. Real life says it is not true. More than that, it has never been true.

    You say that you used to understand but now you don’t any more. Why? The world has changed little since you understood perfectly well not that long ago. With the limited information I have there are two possibilities I can see – either you never did understand or somewhere in the course of everyday life a person has found it necessary to say firmly to you, “No! This is who I am.”

    As for what is being asked, my guess is that someone has asked you to think outside your own private and very comfortable box.

  182. 682
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    brianpansky,

    Honestly, I don’t understand what you want.
    Crip Dyke gave you some great answers and links to resources for more and yet, you claim none of it answers your question. Either you’re not asking your questions clearly, or maybe you should consider that there is no simple answer to find.

  183. 683
    rorschach

    ‘Schach’s choice of terms was indeed unfortunate, but while intent is not magic I am 100% certain that nothing racial was intended nor, given what I know about his cultural history, even could have been intended there.

    Sorry I don’t get it, what does this refer to? I called Caine the chief monitor, as in, main/major/boss/leading/most influential/loudest/most prolific etc, which is how I and from what I gather other people as well perceived her influence, so how is this unfortunate let alone racial? And I was not making a point specific to Caine in the first place, more a general remark re the potential conflict for monitors who hold a personal grudge against a commenter.

    Caine’s go at John Morales of which I did not know the background because I’m not following the threads as closely anymore at the moment due to personal stuff going on, just served as a general example for a concern that was voiced not just by myself but also others when the monitor system was initially introduced. To assume that I was having some kind of mean backhand go at Caine here is simply wrong, sorry.

    So I’m saying STOP NOW.

    You got it.

  184. 684
    Nick Gotts

    rorschach@683

    I called Caine the chief monitor, as in, main/major/boss/leading/most influential/loudest/most prolific etc, which is how I and from what I gather other people as well perceived her influence, so how is this unfortunate let alone racial?

    The primary meaning of “chief” is of comeone who has a special status among a group, which Caine didn’t. Nor did she, and nor do any monitors, have the kind of power you are attributing to them. The racial connotation is because of Caine’s American Indian identity, “chief” being the title Europeans and European Americans have long applied to perceived leading members of so-called “tribal” societies.

    And I was not making a point specific to Caine in the first place… To assume that I was having some kind of mean backhand go at Caine here is simply wrong

    Oh come off it. If you name a person, you are making a specific point about them, and in this case, a specific attack on them. And mean it certainly was.

  185. 685
    LykeX

    …the potential conflict for monitors who hold a personal grudge against a commenter.

    Seeing as monitor have absolutely zero power to do anything, I don’t really see how there’s any conflict. The most a monitor can do is report a comment to PZ. If the comment is innocuous, I imagine PZ will go “What? Why did you flag this? Stop wasting my time.”

    Repeated behavior of that type will likely get monitor status revoked in short order. The point of the monitors is to save PZ time. If one of them is actively wasting it, I don’t think they’d last long.

    What do you think a monitor could possibly do, as part of a personal grudge?

  186. 686
    Inaji

    LykeX:

    Repeated behavior of that type will likely get monitor status revoked in short order.

    Behaviour like that wouldn’t be tolerated at all, by the other monitors or PZ. As PZ stated, in his lengthy, bright red post up there ^, monitors don’t report behaviour they feel is directed at them personally at all.

  187. 687
    throwaway

    Rorschach @ 683

    And I was not making a point specific to Caine in the first place, more a general remark re the potential conflict for monitors who hold a personal grudge against a commenter.

    Rorschach @ 622

    isn’t that attitude a problem, coming from the chief monitor around here?

    I have a problem with context sometimes, but I’m pretty sure that was about as non-general a point you could have made with the words you used.

  188. 688
    brianpansky

    @681
    Maureen Brian

    Let’s try again, brianpansky.

    You say that you were designated “boy” and in effect have never given the matter another thought. Maybe you haven’t. I can’t tell.

    More importantly, though, do you honestly imagine that the way you have been first a boy and then a man was the only possible way of being either? Did you not make any choices at all within that broad definition?

    What if, in the course of being a man, you had run up against the expectation of what a man is in your particular tribe or sub-group? What if you had been born onto a family which expected its first son to go into a Guards Regiment, its second into the church and its third to go to agricultural college so that he had the skills to act as estate manager when No 1 son came back to inherit the title. Except that you as that son wanted, always wanted, to be a classical violinist – still well within the definition of “man” however crudely sketched. Or you might have lived in a country where the second son became a monk at age 7. The detail is not important so please don’t get hung up on that detail.

    So, it’s quite reasonable to acknowledge that someone, if never you, might run into some friction, might get bored at always correcting the assumptions of elderly relatives or of strangers.

    Now imagine that the expectation you keep running into is the one which says that all matters of gender and sexuality are perfectly explained by a binary model. Biology says it is not true. Real life says it is not true. More than that, it has never been true.

    Directing this at me is what I would call “preaching to the choir”. I must be really causing some confusion…

    @682
    Beatrice

    Honestly, I don’t understand what you want.
    Crip Dyke gave you some great answers and links to resources for more and yet, you claim none of it answers your question. Either you’re not asking your questions clearly, or maybe you should consider that there is no simple answer to find.

    Fair enough. Also please note that Crip Dyke gave me a large amount of stuff to read. Including all of Natalie Reed’s archives (yes I went and read some). I thought asking for a word definition was specific enough it could be answered in a single paragraph.

    Though I probably should have been more thorough in my responses to 668 and 675 because those were the best attempts at giving a definition to me…so when I didn’t directly engage with those I can see how that would be confusing to everyone!

    Maybe instead of asking questions, I’ll try to write out what I currently think, and I’ll point out why it seems ‘wrong’. That’s basically what @681 Maureen Brian is asking me to do.

    But I don’t have time to write anything thoughtful just yet. Later I guess.

    Seriously though, how difficulty is it for me to get a good definition (for “gender”, “woman,” “man” etc) when I ask for one? O:

  189. 689
    brianpansky

    * that part I quoted of Maureen should have been shorter. only the last 3 paragraphs I quoted should have been there.

  190. 690
    PZ Myers

    NEW THREAD.

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