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Jan 03 2013

I hope this haunts Michael Nodianos for the rest of his life

A 16 year old girl was reportedly drugged and gang-raped by football players in Steubenville, Ohio, and two people, Trent Mays and Ma’lik Richmond, have been arrested for it. And now a video has emerged of other players joking about the rape and helpless, unconscious state of the girl. Warning: the video is appalling, not only that they so demean another human being, but that the whole crowd thinks the “jokes” are funny.

This was done by football players. So of course, many people in town are rushing to defend the rapists, including coaches on their football team.

“The rape was just an excuse, I think,” said the 27-year-old Hubbard, who is No. 2 on the Big Red’s career rushing list.

“What else are you going to tell your parents when you come home drunk like that and after a night like that?” said Hubbard, who is one of the team’s 19 coaches. “She had to make up something. Now people are trying to blow up our football program because of it.

I spit on football culture. What should be just a fun game has become a focus for misogyny and abuse in far too many communities.

And I dare anyone who denies that rape culture thrives in the US to watch that video.


Good grief, the girl was unconscious and unresponsive, people were joking that she was dead, and onlookers couldn’t figure out that this was rape. She didn’t say “no,” after all.

310 comments

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  1. 1
    Shplane, Spess Alium

    one of the team’s 19 coaches

    And yet I guarantee you there aren’t 19 math teachers per class.

  2. 2
    dobby

    The team has 19 coaches? Not to take away from your point, but that is just crazy.

  3. 3
    Inaji

    As I remarked in the other thread about this, we still have people showing up here on a regular basis, declaring that we live in a post sexist society. I not only *spit* on sports culture, but them as well.

  4. 4
    WharGarbl

    He was referring to an incident in late August, when two players on Steubenville High School’s prestigious football team, The Big Red, reportedly drugged a 16-year-old girl and sexually assaulted her, carrying her unconscious body by the wrists and ankles from party to party, urinating on her and abandoning her at the end of the night at her parents’ house.

    … wow…

    The boys glorified their crime online, shooting Instagram photos of the assault, making lewd updates on Facebook and Twitter, and allowing their friends, like Nodianos, to shoot photos and make their own updates and videos about the incident. In spite of the abduction and attack’s high profile in social media, townspeople have been reluctant to aid the prosecution of the crime in any way, lest it jeopardize The Big Red’s chances at another state championship.

    … wow…

    Nate Hubbard, 27, a volunteer Big Red coach, went so far as to accuse the victim of making the whole thing up to excuse a night of excessive partying, “The rape was just an excuse, I think,”

    … okay, where the hell is that bingo card…

  5. 5
    PZ Myers

    I’m not going to read any more about this story. Every single fucking detail fills me with rage.

    Fuck Steubenville, Ohio.

  6. 6
    glodson

    I saw that in the comments of the sexist bingo. I wanted to comment on it, but I was disgusted that I couldn’t get the words out.

    I hope this haunts that entire town, which rushed to defend the alleged rapists. Not on the grounds that they were innocent, but that the two were good at a game. And the mocking of the victim… what fuck is wrong with this asshole?

  7. 7
    Rob Grigjanis

    I spit on football culture

    It’s not just football culture. It’s macho sports culture, the world around. I love sports, but I hate, hate the casual sexism, racism, homophobia and other crap that seems to permeate that world.

  8. 8
    David Marjanović

    Good grief, the girl was unconscious and unresponsive, people were joking that she was dead, and onlookers couldn’t figure out that this was rape. She didn’t say “no,” after all.

    *headdesk*

    Assholes. Complete Monsters, the lot of them.

  9. 9
    Inaji

    PZ:

    Every single fucking detail fills me with rage.

    Same here. My only hope is that the collective rage over this reaches out and chokes the hell out these people and that town and that they are left with no choice but to do what is right. The fact it will take collective outrage to make that happens only deepens the fury I feel and the pain from empathizing with their victim and all her loved ones, who are victims too.

    They should hang their heads in absolute, mortifying shame.

  10. 10
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    *deep breath*

    Nope, still incoherent with rage.

  11. 11
    Raging Bee

    NINETEEN coaches, and all of them together couldn’t tell the players how to behave toward other people?

    Oh, and…

    “What else are you going to tell your parents when you come home drunk like that and after a night like that?” said Hubbard, who is one of the team’s 19 coaches. “She had to make up something. Now people are trying to blow up our football program because of it.

    Um…let’s assume, just for a moment, that the girl was indeed getting laid voluntarily…couldn’t the players have determined that a girl wanting to have sex with the whole team was a train wreck, and might possibly cry “rape” the next day? Did NONE of them think they maybe oughta avoid a situation like that? Given how many times such he-said-she-said controversies arise (as in, every fucking time a woman alleges she’s been raped), shouldn’t someone have piped up and said this might get the team in trouble?

    Oh wait, boys will be boys, REAL men don’t take responsibility, and any male who says no to sex is either a wimp or a fag. Sorry, I keep forgetting that…

  12. 12
    Jackie, all dressed in black

    Trigger warning:

    In 1994 the college I would later attend was the location of a gang rape by the football team. The woman was known to be white and dating a black man. (an unacceptably slutty act ’round these parts at the time.) The coaches bailed out the rapists. The judge said that there were 8 men saying she had wanted to be sodomized over a toilet, and only her word that she was raped. The men were acquitted and continued to play and attend school. The victim dropped out. That was pretty much business as usual at that university and things did not improve over the next few years.

    Actually, it has been well over a few years and things don’t appear to have changed at all. I’d say now would be better than later for making sure this shit stops. Thanks PZ. Keep talking about this. Keep dragging these subjects into the light. These monsters can only thrive in the dark.

  13. 13
    Kevin

    And, sadly, not nearly a unique story.

    HENDERSONVILLE, N.C. – Four Henderson County teenagers have been charged with felony second-degree rape, and arrest warrants allege that they sexually abused a female who was “mentally incapacitated and physically helpless.”

    Charged with one count each of second-degree rape are James Matthew Bishop, 16, of 16 Wildwood Forest Lane, Mills River; Vincent Joseph Curto, 17, of 687 Oak Grove Road, Flat Rock; Tyler Scott Garren, 17, of 140 Cow House Road, Hendersonville; and Justin Wesley Ponder, 17, of 85 Relaxing View Drive, Fletcher.

    The incident occurred during a party Dec. 8, and alcohol was involved, said Capt. Frank Stout, spokesman for the Henderson County Sheriff’s Office.

    The accused and the 16-year-old victim are students at East Henderson High School, and Bishop, Garren and Ponder were members of the football team. None of the students are believed to have returned to school since the incident.

    Bishop, Curto and Garren turned themselves in late Wednesday afternoon, and their bonds were set at $30,000 each. They had posted bond and left the county detention center by 7 p.m.

    Ponder turned himself in Wednesday evening. It was not known at press deadline whether he would be able to make bail.

    The State Bureau of Investigation has taken the lead on the case because the incident is alleged to have occurred at Garren’s home. Garren is the son of sheriff’s deputy Jason Garren, who was out of town that weekend tending to his younger son, Hunter Garren, who was hospitalized several hours away. Hunter Garren was seriously injured in an RTV accident this summer.

    Football players partying at a deputy sheriff’s house. Gang rape a teen. Oh what fun!

  14. 14
    glodson

    I am going to follow this story in the vain hope that the football team gets taken apart, a few of the coaches lose their jobs and to see those who would sweep this under rug punished.

    This took me forever to write out as I kept editing these few short sentences. Rape culture? Yeah, totally doesn’t exist…

  15. 15
    Gnumann+,with no bloody irony at all (just an anti-essentialist feminist with a shotgun)

    OP: “

    What else are you going to tell your parents when you come home drunk like that and after a night like that?” said Hubbard, who is one of the team’s 19 coaches. “She had to make up something. Now people are trying to blow up our football program because of it.

    This statement alone is a really good reason to terminate the college football team.

  16. 16
    w00dview

    In spite of the abduction and attack’s high profile in social media, townspeople have been reluctant to aid the prosecution of the crime in any way, lest it jeopardize The Big Red’s chances at another state championship.

    Seriously? They are more worried about the local football team’s chances in a meaningless championship than they are that a girl got raped? As PZ said fuck Stubenville, Ohio. If I lived in that shithole I would die from shame. The fuck is wrong with these people?

    Caine:

    we still have people showing up here on a regular basis, declaring that we live in a post sexist society.

    And those folks suffer from a level of delusion that would put bigfoot and UFOs to shame. But apparently sexism and misogyny are not seen as valid subjects to be skeptical of according to the leaders of the “rational ” movement. Cowardly wankers, the lot of them.

  17. 17
    Pteryxx

    Oh wait, boys will be boys, REAL men don’t take responsibility, and any male who says no to sex is either a wimp or a fag. Sorry, I keep forgetting that…

    I keep waiting for a story to break where, in one of these sports-fueled gang rapes, a guy *does* object and gets raped in retaliation. Happens plenty in other contexts…

  18. 18
    G Pierce (Was ~G~)

    I’ve been following this as much as I can stomach for a while. (and I don’t want to watch the video) Fortunately an excellent blogger has been helping to keep the case against the rapists and rape facilitators alive- (she was also the target of a lawsuit by the parents of one of those angelic little boys- frankly if I were them, I’d slither away in shame). http://prinniefied.com/blog/

    For the entirely masochistic (read on an empty stomach, I assure you) read about the disgusting comments of a local shock jock here (toward bottom)- http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/09/sexual_assault_awareness_campa.html

    I’m within a couple of hours. If I had a bullet proof car, I’d drive around Steubenville with a giant middle finger on top of my car all day. Words cannot suffice to express my rage at those defending these pieces of shit.

    And although I have no doubt this is a religious town, example once again that rape culture thrives outside religious institutions as well. One more link to send to the next atheist I see on facebook who tries to say only religious institutions can be morally bankrupt about sexual abuse.

  19. 19
    F [is for failure to emerge]

    Oh, for fuck’s sake, Steubenville. Decent folks, it’s probably time to get out or take over.

  20. 20
    Jackie, all dressed in black

    @David M. They aren’t, you know? They’re just people. They’re just sexist people who believe that women are less human than men and that it is fun and games to abuse them. They still probably love their grandparents, think puppies are adorable and all that other human stuff. They aren’t monsters. They are just very bad people with very fucked up ideas about what it means to be a person and who gets to be treated humanely. It works exactly the same way racism works. If only they were monsters, this would be an easy enough problem to solve. But they aren’t. They may be broken fundamentally in some way, but they do’t think so. They don’t think so because society tells them that they are justified. They were not born monsters. It took many years of absorbing toxic, sexist shit to make those men laugh and joke about raping an unconscious woman.
    Now the culture will continue to defend and embrace them while it punishes and blames the victim, as it does in every case. I doubt any of these men will ever see that he has done something violent and cruel. After all, they were just having fun.

    I wish we were only fighting monsters. We’re fighting something alot bigger and nastier here.

  21. 21
    Ibis3, Let's burn some bridges

    I spit on football culture

    It’s not just football culture. It’s macho sports culture, the world around. I love sports, but I hate, hate the casual sexism, racism, homophobia and other crap that seems to permeate that world.

    It’s not just macho sports culture. Casual sexism, racism, homophobia and other crap permeates *the* world. It’s becoming more and more obvious to me every day that the misogyny we experience isn’t a characteristic of this or that community or culture. Gamers, programmers, footballers, atheists, the religious, workers, media producers, advertisers…just about any group or subculture is going to exhibit the stuff cause the misogynists are everywhere.

  22. 22
    WharGarbl

    I am going to follow this story in the vain hope that the football team gets taken apart, a few of the coaches lose their jobs and to see those who would sweep this under rug punished.

    Anonymous group is involved. So… chances are good something happens?

  23. 23
    Taz

    [Head football coach Reno] Saccoccia, pronounced SOCK-otch, told the principal and school superintendent that the players who posted online photographs and comments about the girl the night of the parties said they did not think they had done anything wrong. Because of that, he said, he had no basis for benching those players.

    Approached in November to be interviewed about the case, Saccoccia said he did not “do the Internet,” so he had not seen the comments and photographs posted online from that night. When asked again about the players involved and why he chose not to discipline them, he became agitated.

    “You made me mad now,” he said, throwing in several expletives as he walked from the high school to his car.

    Nearly nose to nose with a reporter, he growled: “You’re going to get yours. And if you don’t get yours, somebody close to you will.”

    The New York Times has reported on this and Anonymous is on it. Hopefully these assholes are going to get what’s coming to them.

  24. 24
    glodson

    @22 My confidence is low. I want real consequences. I fear that this town’s want of stupid football glory will trump any semblance of justice.

  25. 25
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    But remember, folks, there is no rape culture. It is a myth created by feminazis to control men.

  26. 26
    WharGarbl

    @jackiepaper
    #20
    They are monsters. Even if they don’t know they’re complete monsters, they’re still monsters.
    Okay, they’re still human, so probably monstrous humans?

  27. 27
    chadwickjones

    High school students… drunk and raping, teachers and faculty defending the rapists… The future is looking grim.

  28. 28
    michaeld

    @10 Beatrice

    Seconded.

  29. 29
    mythbri

    Attention people who have trouble grasping or accepting the existence of rape culture:

    This is it. This is rape culture.

    All of these excuses, the lack of discipline, the difficulty in getting the cooperation of people in town for prosecution, the characterization of the victim – this is all rape culture.

    How can you see things like this and still say that society condemns rape? That society does not enable rape? That society does not ostracize victims of rape?

    Grow out of the cognitive dissonance that makes it possible to see things like this and yet not acknowledge the truth about our world. It’s not just “those people over in THAT country” or “those people who grew up in THAT religion” or “those people who were born with THAT skin color” or “those people who are in THAT football program”.

    This is the fucking world. Acknowledge it. Work to change it.

  30. 30
    vaiyt

    Nearly nose to nose with a reporter, he growled: “You’re going to get yours. And if you don’t get yours, somebody close to you will.”

    Threats, how classy.

  31. 31
    Inaji

    WharGarbl:

    They are monsters. Even if they don’t know they’re complete monsters, they’re still monsters. Okay, they’re still human, so probably monstrous humans?

    No, they are not. Let’s get this very fucking clear right now. Both you and David are indulging in the No True Human fallacy. You do not want to imagine there could any possible connection between you and the young men who committed such foul acts. You do not want to imagine there could be any possible connection between you and the families, friends and coaches of these young men and the protection thereof.

    These are young men who are being protected from the foul acts they committed because our society and our culture tells them that it is alright to do what they did. That it’s really not all that big a deal. They’re young, they made a mistake. She was partying, her fault. And on it goes. The problem runs damn deep and the toxic poison is everywhere. We are not disconnected from these people. It does no good to get busy “othering” them all. They are us, with blinders on.

  32. 32
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    They are monsters. Even if they don’t know they’re complete monsters, they’re still monsters.

    Calling them monsters is not acceptable. If I call them monsters, I am calling them something other than human. I am othering them. This is exactly what they, and a huge number of Americans, do to women, GLBT persons, minorities, the disabled, the elderly and children every fucking day.

    They are human beings who have accepted that women exist to serve men, that Eve was created to serve Adam, that women are not full human beings and can thus be used as sex toys (unless another man has a claim on her). Calling them monsters means that we don’t have to clean up the poisons that Abrahamic patriarchy has left in western society. Calling them monsters means that none of us have to look at ourselves and see those boys staring back. Calling them monsters means that the town of Steubenville, OH, does not need to take a close look at itself and wonder why they are protecting rapists. Calling them monsters means that the town of Steubenville does not need to wonder why one of the men who has been entrusted with the moral and ethical development of their young men* blames the victim. Calling them monsters means that the town of Steubenville does not need to worry that maybe, just maybe, they are failing at their mission to help children become real members of adult society.

    So I disagree with calling the rapists monsters. What they did was monstrous. What they are is humans who have so internalized American rape culture that they see nothing wrong with what they did. And their supporters are reinforcing that. Which is also monstrous.

    * One of the pathetic reasons given for the continuation (and worship) of high school sports is that it builds moral and ethical character and teaches boys to be men.

  33. 33
    Scr... Archivist

    Nineteen football coaches in a town of 19,000 residents. That sounds like a high ratio. But since I know nothing about gridiron, I have to ask: Is that higher than normal?

  34. 34
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Calling them monsters means that we can declare them other and not cast a critical eye on ourselves and our culture.

    If they are monsters, then they are not a reflection of the society they came from, from us.

    That is where the temptation to call them monsters comes from. And why it must be resisted.

  35. 35
    Alverant

    Since the evidence was uncovered by hackers people are going to claim it was faked. It may not be admissible in the trial, not that it would make a difference; the football players will get off. There isn’t a way to punish them that won’t cause retaliation against the victim because some silly game is more important than justice for some girl.

    This is the danger of religion, when something is worshiped with such passion that it can do no wrong. Football is their religion.

  36. 36
    jba55

    The rape/abuse is clearly the worst thing about this story, the fact that they *could* do this without remorse or guilt is just beyond words. But this:
    “lest it jeopardize The Big Red’s chances at another state championship.”
    makes me want to throw up. This is a town full of people who are more concerned with high school sports than a young woman’s health and well being. And while extreme, this isn’t a new or isolated issue. When I was in high school I can think of a dozen kids who were thrown under the bus to keep the sports teams viable and that was in a Boston area school where there was stuff other than sports going on. Ugh, I need a drink and to call my nieces/nephews and tell them to never associate with people who play sports.

  37. 37
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    The coaches and the others who are siding with the football players are confused and angry.

    After all, crap like this has been going on forever. Why is it that people are suddenly upset about it?

    It is like people have all of a sudden decided that women are people or something.

  38. 38
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Nineteen football coaches in a town of 19,000 residents. That sounds like a high ratio. But since I know nothing about gridiron, I have to ask: Is that higher than normal

    Not really. Most of them probably are volunteer coaches — ex jocks who can add some expertise (blocking, throwing, cuts, coverage schemes, how to catch a punt, how to make an effective crackback block, how to get away with holding, how to knee someone in the crotch without getting flagged, how to take out the knee of the opposing quarterback ‘accidentally’) for the young boys. Our local high school team has one paid coach (also a history teacher (shudder)) and eleven volunteer coaches.

  39. 39
    Akira MacKenzie

    Ahhh… good old grunting , testosterone-fueled, high school athletics at it’s most violent and savage. While I was never sexually assaulted by a member of the football team, my combination nerd/”retard” (my mental health landed me is “special” education from 3rd grade until the end of my junior year) status earned me the not-so-coveted position of Lowest On The Adolescent Food Chain. Jocks can never pass up a the chance to pummel someone, so being slammed against lockers or just randomly being punched in the arm as one passed me by in the halls was a daily occurance. The teachers looked the other way.

    So as disgusting as this story is, I can’t say it shocks me anymore. In their quest to “WIN” and to satiate the almost gladiatorial lusts of the parents, coaches, and community at large, they’ve created teenage brutes and monsters whose cruelty is felt by anyone unfortunate to cross their path.

  40. 40
    Rawnaeris, Lulu Cthulhu

    I’m just going to go curl up in my bed and not leave today.
     
    I’m thinking every year from first grade through college there needs to be an ethics class, and that what exactly ‘consent’ means needs to be included.

  41. 41
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Streisand Effect. It’s going to haunt them all now. The internet will make sure of it. I want the rapists’ names out there too. Prospective future employers should know when they have rapist applicants.

  42. 42
    Raging Bee

    Sorry about the double-take, but I’m realizing that one of the most disgraceful aspects of this whole affair is that no one seems to have made any attempt to steer the boys away from risky behavior. Even if we stick to the presumption that the girl in question “wanted it,” didn’t any of those boys hear a little voice, in or out of their own heads, saying that getting sexually involved with a girl who may be drunk and is acting irresponsibly is a bad idea, and might cause trouble down the road?

    Didn’t any of those so-called coaches ever say to the players anything like “You’re young, you’re strong and healthy, you’re good-looking, and your town reveres you as demigods, so you should be able to get laid without having to settle for a drunk bimbo that you share with other guys”? Didn’t any of them say “Look, guys, if you can’t get a girl with all the advantages you have, you may have a problem, and taking advantage of someone who’s drugged isn’t the answer”?

    And don’t try to tell me that boys are indiscriminate horndogs who can never be expected to think ahead and imagine consequences — that’s a fucking lie that becomes “true” — and extremely damaging to men as well as women — with constant mindless repetition. Yes, we get horny and do stupid things as a result, but we ARE able to foresee consequences, and resist temptation. I’ve seen it done: I’ve heard guys advising each other to avoid certain women, and when a woman I thought would be an easy lay passed out on me in mid-foreplay, I had no problem stopping what I was trying to do, even though I was extremely worked up and almost as drunk as she was.

    The excuse that “she wanted it” isn’t much of an excuse, even if it is true.

  43. 43
    Akira MacKenzie

    Sorry, my “brutes and monsters” comment came after posts about why it was not a good idea to call the accused such. Good point. My apologies.

  44. 44
    mikee

    What I can never understand is do these apologists (and the rapists themselves) not have sisters and mothers and daughters? Do they not have one ounce of empathy, which would show them how horrific this is? Can they not imagine what it would be like for someone to incapacitate them and sexually abuse them?
    I just don’t understand how people can be so oblivious to others.

    If the town does not bring these guys to justice you know what I would love to see – every other team fuse to play them. For their parents to say “I’m not having my son associate with rapists and those who think it is okay to abuse women” for coaches to say ” I don’t want to associate with coaches who teach their students that women are play toys for men”

    I know that is naive, I know that wont happen, but it would be an opportunity for leaders in football to prove that if it isn’t deal with at town level, it will be dealt with elsewhere.

    Sometimes I want to weep for humanity but I fear if I start I will never stop.

    Keep up the good work PZ bringing these things to light. They are not comfortable and they fill me with sadness and rage but they only way to fight this shit is for people like you to pull it into the light.

  45. 45
    Pteryxx

    Nineteen football coaches in a town of 19,000 residents. That sounds like a high ratio. But since I know nothing about gridiron, I have to ask: Is that higher than normal?

    What Oggie said. They’re volunteers from the football community, some ex-players, so… dunno about ‘normal’, but I think they have lots and lots of volunteers pushing to get into these respected and popular positions. Sometimes teams have ‘travel’ coaches, sometimes they share oversight of a specialty. For comparison, a *professional* NFL team has a dozen to 16 or so paid coaching positions.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_National_Football_League_staffs

    …I’d like to see that math class with 19 backup teachers. I dearly would.

  46. 46
    Francisco Bacopa

    Good work Anonymous. Please stay on the case for the next fifteen years. mail tapes to their college roommates. Send the video everywhere they apply for a job. make the next fifteen years of their lives a living hell.

  47. 47
    Thomathy, Gay Where it Counts

    Pteryxx @ #17

    I keep waiting for a story to break where, in one of these sports-fueled gang rapes, a guy *does* object and gets raped in retaliation. Happens plenty in other contexts…

    Umm …what? I hope to hear a story where a man objects, too, but certainly I’m not waiting for one wherein he’s raped for it. And to what end would we be waiting to hear of such a story? Because he’d come forward? Because maybe then the perpetrators of the rape would get meaningfully prosecuted?

    That’s not an acceptable thing to wait for or even to expect. I seriously can’t see how another rape could possibly be an answer to this problem.

    Unless I’m seriously missing something, and please inform me if I am, you’re way off base here and I can’t believe no one else has mentioned it.

  48. 48
    G Pierce (Was ~G~)

    [blockquote] Calling them monsters means that none of us have to look at ourselves and see those boys staring back. [/blockquote] Absolutely. Anyone not careful can get sucked in. For a multitude of reasons, and without getting into details I contributed to the shielding of a convicted rapist from social shunning and could have potentially enabled him to claim another victim among people I knew. Once my mind rose from the fog, (and a lot of that is due to things I read here, THANK YOU), I reversed course, with the naive assumption that people would shun me for having been sympathetic to this person. In fact, the reverse happened. The people who shunned and argued with me did so motivated by sympathy for the rapist and minimization of his potential threat and what he did. The words I heard coming from once respected people’s mouths shook me to my very core. In contrast, those who condemned the rapist supported me 100% for speaking out and remain good friends. There. Rape culture slapped me in the face.

    Since this happened, I think about this every single day and it pains me to talk about it. I think about my past complicity in rape culture, and am filled with rage having learned that “rally around the rapist” is standard protocol among many people when faced with the unpleasant issue of rape. Sometimes I wish I could unknow this about society and unknow this about people I used to respect and consider friends, but ultimately it allows me to be on the right side of humanity and work for change.

  49. 49
    Inaji

    Raging Bee:

    Didn’t any of those so-called coaches ever say to the players anything like “You’re young, you’re strong and healthy, you’re good-looking, and your town reveres you as demigods, so you should be able to get laid without having to settle for a drunk bimbo that you share with other guys”? Didn’t any of them say “Look, guys, if you can’t get a girl with all the advantages you have, you may have a problem, and taking advantage of someone who’s drugged isn’t the answer”?

    Seems to me you’re answering your own question – look at the language you are using: drunk bimbo. Share her around. And that’s not the only sexist, slut shaming language you’ve used in your two posts about this. So even if the parents or the coaches or the uncles and aunts or the neighbours said, “hey, you don’t need to fuck a drunk bimbo, you know, those bitches can get craaaazy the next day”, exactly what do think such a message really delivers? Do you think, maybe, it gets across that “eh, it’s just a drunk bimbo, I’m horny, so…”

    In your two posts about this issue, you’ve repeatedly peppered them with slut shaming language. I think perhaps you best tend to your own thinking before castigating others.

  50. 50
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    What I can never understand is do these apologists (and the rapists themselves) not have sisters and mothers and daughters?

    Ah, but their women are good, they’re safe, they’re protected, they’re not like HER.

  51. 51
    Pteryxx

    nah Thomathy, I don’t *hope for* or *eagerly anticipate* such a story because it would prove a great point or some shit like that. I just personally think it’s likely that something similar has already happened and it just hasn’t ever gone public. I’m basing that on parallels of retaliation against objectors to police and military brutality, for instance. If such a story does turn up I’ll be sad and sick but not surprised, and that’s not worth any sort of accolade.

  52. 52
    unre9istered

    The NCAA needs to be pressured to start banning teams that have this sort of behavior. Then, rather than supporting atheletes who behave like these, colleges and communities with ostracize them and punish them to the fullest possible extent–as they deserve. Atheletes that suggest this sort of behavior will be stopped by people who want their teams to do well, rather than supported.

    I know I’m dreaming, but it would be nice to see this happen.

  53. 53
    IslandBrewer

    “Since the evidence was uncovered by hackers people are going to claim it was faked. It may not be admissible in the trial, not that it would make a difference; the football players will get off.”

    No, not necessarily. The evidence must not be illegally acquired by the police, but downloading it off the internet is pretty legal, regardless of how it got there. If the police were the hackers, then that might make a reasonable objection to the admissibility, provided the hacking had violated a particular statute (but I’ve seen no evidence that it does).

  54. 54
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    The NCAA needs to be pressured to start banning teams that have this sort of behavior.

    I do not disagree. But this is about a high school, not a college.

  55. 55
    Bronze Dog

    I view the “Complete Monster” idea as a matter of psychology and choice, not really matter of labeling them as sub-human or non-human. A crazed, non-sapient beast has instincts and built-in limits on understanding that make its destructive behavior easier to expect and deal with. There isn’t much of a lesson about humanity to learn or teach in such a case.

    Humans who do this sort of thing are monsters because they’re humans, are supposed to know better, but still choose to perform atrocities. I feel revulsion and fear because I know humans are capable of being such monsters if we aren’t vigilant in maintaining moral standards. As a culture, we haven’t been sufficiently vigilant, therefore we have monsters, and they aren’t so easily distinguished by convenient markers. To add in another issue, quite often, it can’t so easily be attributed to “crazy” psychiatric conditions, since “normal” people with “normal” brain development still do horrible things, and “normal” people will leap to their defense. The lesson is that we can’t just make excuses, we have to try to change the culture for the better. Calling these people “monsters” combined with rejecting their excuses for claiming non-responsibility is a way to use shame to discourage rape culture.

    It’s sad that we need to pound into some people’s heads the idea that unconsciousness does not equal informed consent.

  56. 56
    Inaji

    Bronze Dog:

    Calling these people “monsters” combined with rejecting their excuses for claiming non-responsibility is a way to use shame to discourage rape culture.

    No it isn’t. That’s a load of complete, absolute shit. You’re buying into the No True Human fallacy to a disturbing degree. Calling them monsters is a way to keep rape culture operation and maintaining the status quo. It’s othering at its finest.

  57. 57
    David Marjanović

    @David M. They aren’t, you know? They’re just people. They’re just sexist people who believe that women are less human than men and that it is fun and games to abuse them. They still probably love their grandparents, think puppies are adorable and all that other human stuff.

    Their ability to just switch that off in certain situations is what’s so monstrous about them.

    They were not born monsters.

    I know, and I never said they were.

    Both you and David are indulging in the No True Human fallacy.

    …uh… what exactly do you think I mean by “monster”? I even provided a link…

    One of the pathetic reasons given for the continuation (and worship) of high school sports is that it builds moral and ethical character and teaches boys to be men.

    *headdesk*

    …Where I come from, that probably stopped in 1945, and if not, it must have stopped around 1968. But I can’t wish the reason for that on the USA.

    The coaches and the others who are siding with the football players are confused and angry.

    After all, crap like this has been going on forever. Why is it that people are suddenly upset about it?

    It is like people have all of a sudden decided that women are people or something.

    Bingo.

    I’m thinking every year from first grade through college there needs to be an ethics class, and that what exactly ‘consent’ means needs to be included.

    That idea sounds better to me every day.

    What I can never understand is do these apologists (and the rapists themselves) not have sisters and mothers and daughters?

    I guess they do but don’t talk much with them, especially not about such things. Conservative taboos probably “help” with the second part.

    Do they not have one ounce of empathy, which would show them how horrific this is? Can they not imagine what it would be like for someone to incapacitate them and sexually abuse them?

    That’s the part I don’t get. Perhaps believing in a madonna/whore dichotomy plus believing whores are some kind of evil robot or Borg makes it work. ~:-|

  58. 58
    Inaji

    to keep rape culture operation

    Should be: to keep rape culture operating.

  59. 59
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Bronze Dog:

    I disagree. Othering the students just kicks the problem further down the road. What they did was monstrous. But what they are is indoctrinated humans.

  60. 60
    David Marjanović

    I just wrote:

    I even provided a link…

    Well, arguably, the quote and the main text describe overlapping but distinct categories. I mean the one described by the main text.

  61. 61
    NightShadeQueen, resident nutcase

    The uni my high school was hosted at built another stadium – a smaller one – so they wouldn’t look so pathetic in front of fans of the opposing team.

    Meanwhile, the chem department was underfunded to the point where they were enrolling students past the cap in lab classes just so the chem students could actually take that major-required class.

    Also – Penn State is appealing the NCAA sanctions.

    @Raging Bee

    “You’re young, you’re strong and healthy, you’re good-looking, and your town reveres you as demigods, so you should be able to get laid without having to settle for a drunk bimbo that you share with other guys”?

    Emphasis mine.

    This is the fucking problem.

    Football players shouldn’t be demigods just because they win games. This is the attitude that lets them believe that they are outside the law.

  62. 62
    What a Maroon, el papa ateo

    Sorry about the double-take, but I’m realizing that one of the most disgraceful aspects of this whole affair is that no one seems to have made any attempt to steer the boys away from risky behavior. Even if we stick to the presumption that the girl in question “wanted it,” didn’t any of those boys hear a little voice, in or out of their own heads, saying that getting sexually involved with a girl who may be drunk and is acting irresponsibly is a bad idea, and might cause trouble down the road?

    Didn’t any of those so-called coaches ever say to the players anything like “You’re young, you’re strong and healthy, you’re good-looking, and your town reveres you as demigods, so you should be able to get laid without having to settle for a drunk bimbo that you share with other guys”? Didn’t any of them say “Look, guys, if you can’t get a girl with all the advantages you have, you may have a problem, and taking advantage of someone who’s drugged isn’t the answer”?

    I suspect that’s pretty much the message they were getting. Maybe not directly from the coaches, but that is the essence of rape culture. “Hey, you’re football players, you’re demigods, you can get anyone you want. And if she won’t give it to you, take it from her.”

    When the message they should be getting is, “You are people. Women are people too. All people deserve respect and bodily autonomy. If you want to have sex with someone who’s enthusiastically willing, go ahead, but don’t forget your protection. But treat anything short of an enthusiastic yes as a stop sign. Respect the stop sign. And if you see your buddies disrespecting the stop sign, say something. Remember, football is just a game, and being good at a game doesn’t give you special privileges.”

  63. 63
    David Marjanović

    …I’d like to see that math class with 19 backup teachers. I dearly would.

    Seconded.

    Humans who do this sort of thing are monsters because they’re humans, are supposed to know better, but still choose to perform atrocities.

    I agree up to that point.

  64. 64
    Raging Bee

    So even if the parents or the coaches or the uncles and aunts or the neighbours said, “hey, you don’t need to fuck a drunk bimbo, you know, those bitches can get craaaazy the next day”, exactly what do think such a message really delivers?

    The message that some sexual encounters are better than others, and that one should be discriminating in choosing who to get naked with.

    If you want to quibble about my choice of words, please remember two things: I was kinda talking from the POV of the team and its coaches and supporters (having explicitly assumed, for the sake of argument, that their story was the truth); and I’ve been to enough frat parties to know that “drunk bimbos” really exist (just as drunk asshole horndog guys exist), and it’s not always wise to have sex with them, at least not when they’re drunk.

  65. 65
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    You want a good reason not to have sex with a “drunk bimbo”?

    Here’s one:

    If she is drunk, she is incapable of consenting. And if you have sex with her, that is rape.

  66. 66
    Rawnaeris, Lulu Cthulhu

    Raging Bee, you really can’t see what is wrong with your choice of words?
     
    Here’s a hint: it involves othering and lessening the value of the women you are talking about.

  67. 67
    Raging Bee

    What I can never understand is do these apologists (and the rapists themselves) not have sisters and mothers and daughters?

    If their mothers, sisters and daughters stand by them, instead of saying “Hey, how would you feel if I was treated like that?” then they probably won’t be much help in the empathy department.

  68. 68
    NightShadeQueen, resident nutcase

    The message that some sexual encounters are better than others, and that one should be discriminating in choosing who to get naked with.

    Funny, I thought the message should be “get consent. Actual fucking consent”.

  69. 69
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    When the message they should be getting is, “You are people. Women are people too. All people deserve respect and bodily autonomy.

    Except that football is sort of the reverse of bodily autonomy. When I played, it was drilled into our heads that, even if the other guy was bigger and stronger, our superior willpower will allow us to force the other guy to do what we want. I was taught to run through the other player as if he wasn’t there. I was taught that I was to make the other player my ‘bitch’, force him to serve me, force him to submit. Football is all about imposing one’s will on the opponent and making them submit. And yes, even in junior high, sexual language was used — make him your bitch, fuck him up, make sure he’s on the bottom of the pile.

    (all of which, given my history (even if unacknowledged at that point by me) now makes me really wonder why I put up with that. oh, wait, I remember — quitting is what girls do.)

  70. 70
    WharGarbl

    Ah, but their women are good, they’re safe, they’re protected, they’re not like HER.

    Or they’re more than willing at throwing their own sisters/mothers/daughters under the proverbial bus.

  71. 71
    Inaji

    Raging Bee:

    then they probably won’t be much help in the empathy department.

    Neither are you, with your insistent slut shaming.

  72. 72
    Raging Bee

    Here’s a hint: it involves othering and lessening the value of the women you are talking about.

    No more so than any guy judging that one woman would be a better partner for him than another.

    Seriously, do you react the same way when you hear one woman saying to another, “You should avoid that guy, he seems like a drunken train-wreck who will get you in serious trouble if you get too close to him”?

  73. 73
    Joshua Hawks

    http://scs.steubenville.k12.oh.us/scs/index.php?option=com_contact&view=contact&id=2%3Amichael-mcvey&catid=4&Itemid=115

    The above is a contact form directly to the superintendent of the school district. I’ve already e-mailed him and let him know how horrible of a person they all are for allowing this to continue unpunished.

  74. 74
    Thomathy, Gay Where it Counts

    Pteryxx, oh. Well, I think we all know that that sort of thing has happened and does happen and that it is under-reported. In my recent memory, though, I can think of reports of it happening in the military (in some military) and I’m sure you’ll forgive me for not bothering to dig it up.

    It is, the rape of objectors, an illustration of just how toxic rape culture can be and exactly what sort of mentality it encourages in those who rape. It’s utterly disturbing, like the current case.

    Frankly, I can’t bare to comment directly on the OP topic directly because I’m finding it difficult to see any remark I might make as other than banal and unhelpful. I hope it’s not cynical of me to think like that, but in the face of this sort of thing a kind of formless outrage is all I can describe of my emotions without feeling banal and unhelpful and even then I’m pretty sure that’s lacking in substantive qualities.

  75. 75
    Inaji

    nightshadequeen:

    Funny, I thought the message should be “get consent. Actual fucking consent”.

    You’d think, right? And other helpful things like drunk means incapable of giving consent. I guess it’s just easier to sit in judgment of all those drunk bimbos who make life so damn tough for the rest of us.

  76. 76
    NightShadeQueen, resident nutcase

    Seriously, do you react the same way when you hear one woman saying to another, “You should avoid that guy, he seems like a drunken train-wreck who will get you in serious trouble if you get too close to him”?

    Raging Bee, please explain exactly what actions would cause you to label a man a “drunken train-wreck” and what actions would cause you to label a woman a “drunk bimbo.”

    And then compare the two.

  77. 77
    Inaji

    Raging Bee:

    Seriously, do you react the same way when you hear one woman saying to another, “You should avoid that guy, he seems like a drunken train-wreck who will get you in serious trouble if you get too close to him”?

    First, you aren’t saying something like that – you’re just going on about drunk bimbos, in general. In your little scenario above, it’s “that guy”, not “that drunk mimbo is a trainwreck”. You also used “seems like”, whereas you’re stone certain about all those icky drunk bimbos. You’re also confining it to one individual.

    You’re a sexist asshole and you are part of the problem.

  78. 78
    Rawnaeris, Lulu Cthulhu

    Seriously, do you react the same way when you hear one woman saying to another, “You should avoid that guy, he seems like a drunken train-wreck who will get you in serious trouble if you get too close to him”?

    Since you apparently need it spelled out for you, notice in this paragraph that you did not use any derogatory or otherwise othering terms for the men.
    I’m not saying that warning friends away from a known obnoxious asshole is wrong. My point is that the language you are using adds to the system of victim-blaming that is so rampant in our culture.

  79. 79
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    do you react the same way when you hear one woman saying to another, “You should avoid that guy, he seems like a drunken train-wreck who will get you in serious trouble if you get too close to him”?

    *facepalm* Yeah, what’s the difference between calling a man a drunken train wreck and calling a woman a drunken bimbo.

    it’s just so *confusing*!

    Gimme a break. You are not stupid. Stop pretending to not get it.

  80. 80
    WharGarbl

    “You’re young, you’re strong and healthy, you’re good-looking, and your town reveres you as demigods, so you should be able to get laid without having to settle for a drunk bimbo that you share with other guys

    Drunk bimbo – Generalized categories without specifying individual. Bimbo has a more negative sexual connotation.

    “You should avoid that guy, he seems like a drunken train-wreck who will get you in serious trouble if you get too close to him”

    Drunken train-wreck – Generalizing category with a specific target (namely, “that guy”). Train-wreck, while negative, doesn’t have a sexual connotation. Dead-beat might be of equal negativity (not sure, there isn’t exactly a scale on how negative a term is). So let’s try dead-beat.

    To adapt the former to the latter.
    “You should avoid her, she looks like a drunk bimbo that will get you in serious trouble.”

    To adapt the latter to the former
    “You’re young, you’re strong and healthy, you’re good-looking, and your town reveres you as demigoddess, so you should be able to get laid without having to settle for a drunk dead-beat that sleeps around.”

  81. 81
    consciousness razor

    Sorry about the double-take, but I’m realizing that one of the most disgraceful aspects of this whole affair is that no one seems to have made any attempt to steer the boys away from risky behavior. Even if we stick to the presumption that the girl in question “wanted it,” didn’t any of those boys hear a little voice, in or out of their own heads, saying that getting sexually involved with a girl who may be drunk and is acting irresponsibly is a bad idea, and might cause trouble down the road?

    How is not telling them what “risk” or “trouble” it would cause the rapists anywhere approaching the most disgraceful aspect of this?

    Poor, poor menz. The coaches and parents and the whole fucking town must have let them down. How awful! Because seriously, who gives a fuck about the victim?

  82. 82
    Thomathy, Gay Where it Counts

    Raging Bee, you’re attempting to illustrate how one of these guys could have been rational while still operating inside the particular circumstances which resulted in this gang rape.

    The problem is that the particular circumstances are not rational and the participants were not rational actors. Stop digging in. You poorly chose your language, you’re woefully inept at explaining yourself and your original attempt to illustrate that yes, it could conceivably (maybe, perhaps) be expected that at least one of these guys might have been rational enough to see some problem with their actions, no matter how he came to that conclusion, and intervened to everyone’s best interest.

    Of course, the problem there is that you have to ignore or simply be ignorant of so many other factors to even believe that any of these guys could have done that. The presence of alcohol, the peer pressure and machismo of such a group, the expectation to conform and participate, among countless other factors, at the base of all is the pervasive patriarchy all conspire to make it vanishingly unlikely that any of those young men could have objected successfully.

    So, stop and think for a moment about what you’re trying to say and how you’re saying it. I hardly think you’ve been misunderstood. Rather, it’s just that you’re wrong.

  83. 83
    hypatiasdaughter

    I talked about this on the other thread, but it bears a repeat:

    A juvenile judge and a Steubenville county prosecutor have both had to recuse themselves from the case because of ties to the football team. Steubenville is a small town, the judge told the Times, “Everybody knows everybody.”

    “Everybody knows everybody.” so, of course, the witnesses, the school, the legal system, the townspeople, all hang together to protect the rapists and to ignore what happened.
    The only “Everybody” they don’t know or care about it the 16 year old victim. Why doesn’t she “belong” to Steubenville and why don’t the good people of Steubenville care about what happened to her?
    It’s a rhetorical question, folks but we see this everywhere. The “Outsiders” (women, PoC, LGBT, non-xtians) are tolerated by the “Real Culture” as long as they know their place and don’t make wakes. If they upset the status quo in any way, they are tossed to the wolves.

  84. 84
    Jackie, all dressed in black

    Dear Caine, I love you and you tiny rattlets too.
    That is all.

  85. 85
    Jackie, all dressed in black

    ARGH! *your*

  86. 86
    David Marjanović

    and it’s not always wise to have sex with them, at least not when they’re drunk

    …erm. The minimum risk you’re taking by having sex with anyone drunk is that they’ll regret it when they sober up. Don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t be willing to take that risk.

    Except that football is sort of the reverse of bodily autonomy. When I played, it was drilled into our heads that, even if the other guy was bigger and stronger, our superior willpower will allow us to force the other guy to do what we want. I was taught to run through the other player as if he wasn’t there. I was taught that I was to make the other player my ‘bitch’, force him to serve me, force him to submit. Football is all about imposing one’s will on the opponent and making them submit.

    *lightbulb moment*

    See, I keep imagining American football as soccer with different rules and a ball that has a different shape. I keep being wrong. Those different rules make it fundamentally different, all the way down to the fundament.

    Since you apparently need it spelled out for you, notice in this paragraph that you did not use any derogatory or otherwise othering terms for the men.

    To be fair, fewer if any comparable ones exist. (Caine, did you take mimbo from somewhere, or did you make it up?)

    Patriarchy hurts the vocabulary, too.

  87. 87
    carlie

    What really makes me bone-achingly sad is knowing that that young woman will never be able to show her face in that town again. If she’s very, very lucky, her parents will have the means and ability to move elsewhere, or homeschool her until she graduates and can then leave to go somewhere else. She can’t go to school, she can’t go to the grocery store, she can’t go to church. And that effect will be so, so much stronger if justice is served in any way and those boys pay any price at all for this, or the football team suffers for it. They’ll be lucky not to have their tires slashed and their house windows broken every week. They’ll be lucky to only have to change phone numbers once a month or so. There will be no way for that family to go forward where they live.

  88. 88
    barbyau

    By the standards of the USSC, that isn’t rape. A disabled woman was dined justice by Scalia et al because she was unable to articulate her rejection of the unwanted sex.

    Men don’t need to get consent. Women need to do all the things that risk turning a rape into murder in order to prove they didn’t want it. I wish I lived in a civilized nation where it would legal for me to marry my girlfriend and unambiguously illegal to rape me. But it s the opposite.

  89. 89
    WharGarbl

    Sorry about the double-take, but I’m realizing that one of the most disgraceful aspects of this whole affair is that no one seems to have made any attempt to steer the boys away from risky behavior.

    I think the problem is that for them (or the town in general, or anyone who’s not a victim), it’s not exactly a risky behavior.

  90. 90
    barbyau

    *denied justice, not dined…

  91. 91
    WharGarbl

    it vanishingly unlikely that any of those young men could have objected successfully.

    In one of the video released, where a bunch of people “joke” about the victim being “… deader than…”, someone in the background did object something along the line the “She was raped. That’s not something to joke about.”
    And was promptly ignored.

  92. 92
    robro

    What should be just a fun game has become a focus for misogyny…

    The only inaccuracy with this statement is the word “become.” Football was like this in the 60s when I was in high school and interested in sports. Locker room stories similar to this floated around then. I can only assume that football and other sports have always been like this. As with these jerks, the blame was always put on the girls (she shouldn’t have been there, drinking, etc). If there is a difference with these stories today it’s that victims are more willing to file charges, the stories get more public attention, and fewer people accept the “not a legitimate rape” excuses.

    What’s truly to be hoped for is that people, particularly men, will learn that a woman who goes out drinking with male friends is not implicitly saying “yes.”

  93. 93
    alwayscurious

    People obviously need something more productive to do with their time than worshiping athletes until their collective brains ooze from their skulls. Can you imagine a drunk driving defense along the same lines? “The pedestrian was totally weaving in the crosswalk–she totally would have run into our car if we hadn’t run the red light in an effort to run her over.” In the small town I’m from, the judge makes sure that his family & friends get the freedom from the law they “need”. Small town headlines hitting the national news like this, while sickening, will ultimately help remedy this problem–it reminds the townsfolk that they cannot exist in secret bubbleland away from the condemning eyes of the wider world.

  94. 94
    Gnumann+,with no bloody irony at all (just an anti-essentialist feminist with a shotgun)

    D.M.

    See, I keep imagining American football as soccer with different rules and a ball that has a different shape. I keep being wrong. Those different rules make it fundamentally different, all the way down to the fundament.

    Yup, the sexualisation in soccer is mainly directed towards your team mates and mainly consensual. Usually with a huge side dish of homophobia.

  95. 95
    Inaji

    Jackiepaper:

    Dear Caine, I love you and you tiny rattlets too.
    That is all.

    I love you too. ♥

  96. 96
    littlejohn

    There’s no need to coin the word “mimbo.” Bimbos are male by definition. Look it up.

  97. 97
    Thomathy, Gay Where it Counts

    And was promptly ignored.

    it vanishingly unlikely that any of those young men could have objected successfully.

    I can’t watch the videos from where I am right now, but you’re not giving an example of a successful objection, let alone giving an example of someone objecting in order to prevent the rape in the first place.

    It’s an example of one person who isn’t too awful and I don’t know if that’s not depressing.

  98. 98
    David Marjanović

    Yup, the sexualisation in soccer is mainly directed towards your team mates and mainly consensual. Usually with a huge side dish of homophobia.

    (Also, female players are automatically expected to be lesbians.)

    Bimbos are male by definition. Look it up.

    Sadly or not, that’s not current usage; the argument from etymology is a logical fallacy.

  99. 99
    WharGarbl

    @Thomathy
    #96
    I was giving an example to support your statement. That even if a young man objected, it is unlikely to be successful.
    In retrospect, probably should’ve made that intention clear.

  100. 100
    Inaji

    littlejohn:

    There’s no need to coin the word “mimbo.”

    I didn’t coin it.

    Bimbos are male by definition. Look it up.

    That’s irrelevant. Culturally and socially, bimbo is used for females. Go ahead and test that out – go ask 20 people what a bimbo is – we’ll see how many of them say it’s a man.

  101. 101
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    See, I keep imagining American football as soccer with different rules and a ball that has a different shape. I keep being wrong. Those different rules make it fundamentally different, all the way down to the fundament.

    Yeah. I kinda feel shitty that I didn’t have the guts to decide that no, this is not appropriate way back then. Yet another of my failings.

  102. 102
    strange gods before me ॐ

    …uh… what exactly do you think I mean by “monster”? I even provided a link…

    TV Tropes: not a reliable source for discussing psychology.

  103. 103
    md

    Wow. Wow. Wow.

    http://localleaks.blogs.ru/

    Anybody know much about anonymous and if they can be trusted? Id like to send them a donation. If true, this is calling-in-Department of Justice level stuff.

  104. 104
    raven

    PZ Myers:

    I’m not going to read any more about this story. Every single fucking detail fills me with rage.

    Fuck Steubenville, Ohio.

    I’d like to resign from the human species and take the next starship to a better planet.

    NASA needs to pick up the pace here.

  105. 105
    Gnumann+,with no bloody irony at all (just an anti-essentialist feminist with a shotgun)

    md:

    Anybody know much about anonymous and if they can be trusted? Id like to send them a donation. If true, this is calling-in-Department of Justice level stuff.

    They can’t – and they are not an unified unit. The only consistent part is a certain amount of anarchist leanings. Some lean left, some lean right – some just lean in the direction of free downloads. Some are decent humans, some are misogynist creeps.

  106. 106
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Anybody know much about anonymous and if they can be trusted?

    Sometimes. Sometimes not. http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2012/10/17/amanda_todd_suicide_did_anonymous_dox_the_wrong_guy.html

  107. 107
    ildi

    From the NYT article:

    The girl is from Weirton, WV, which is across the Ohio River.

    She is not a Steubenville High student; she attended a smaller, religion-based school, where she was an honor student and an athlete.

    The girl’s mother, in several brief interviews last month, said her family had received threats, so extra police have been patrolling her neighborhood.

    At a hearing last month, the girl’s mother said her daughter remained distraught and did not want to attend school. The girl’s friends have ostracized her, and parents have kept their children away from her, the mother said.

    The girl does not sleep much, said the mother, who testified that she often hears her daughter crying at night.

    So, you don’t have to be from around there to be ostracized and threatened by your own community.

    Also (trigger warning):

    Afterward, they headed to the home of one football player who has now become a witness for the prosecution. That player told the police that he was in the back seat of his Volkswagen Jetta with Mays and the girl when Mays proceeded to flash the girl’s breasts and penetrate her with his fingers, while the player videotaped it on his phone. The player, who shared the video with at least one person, testified that he videotaped Mays and the girl “because he was being stupid, not making the right choices.” He said he later deleted the recording.

    The girl “was just sitting there, not really doing anything,” the player testified. “She was kind of talking, but I couldn’t make out the words that she was saying.”

    At that third party, the girl could not walk on her own and vomited several times before toppling onto her side, several witnesses testified. Mays then tried to coerce the girl into giving him oral sex, but the girl was unresponsive, according to the player who videotaped Mays and the girl.

    The player said he did not try to stop it because “at the time, no one really saw it as being forceful.”

    Wtf? They didn’t consider undressing and fingering her and trying to make her perform oral sex while she is unresponsive to be examples of “forceful” behavior?

    Finally:

    “I tried to tell Trent to stop it,” another athlete, who was Mays’s best friend, testified. “You know, I told him, ‘Just wait — wait till she wakes up if you’re going to do any of this stuff. Don’t do anything you’re going to regret.’ ”

    He said Mays answered: “It’s all right. Don’t worry.”

    Of course, the attorneys for the two football players are saying the witnesses are unreliable because they got immunity from prosecution.

  108. 108
    raven

    What is wrong with Steubenville Ohio?

    Anyone from the area know anything about it?

    On a map it is on the Ohio-West Virginia border. IIRC, that is in the appalachians.

  109. 109
    mikee

    A juvenile judge and a Steubenville county prosecutor have both had to recuse themselves from the case because of ties to the football team. Steubenville is a small town, the judge told the Times, “Everybody knows everybody.”

    Simple solution – bring in prosecutors, a judge and a jury from outside the county or prosecute the case elsewhere.

    @raging bee
    I get the point that you were trying to make with your comments that have raised some ire here, but if you look at the comments others have made about it, I think you will see why they upset people.
    Criticism here can be quite vehement when people phrase things poorly, particularly if (even unintentionally) when it demeans other people, for example, women. Having been on the receiving end of this my first visit to pharyngula, the most productive thing to do is try and understand and learn from what has upset other posters here – there are some amazingly perceptive and thoughtful posters here, who have shared experiences that I think have made me more empathetic and thoughtful in my approach to life.

  110. 110
    WharGarbl

    @raven
    #107

    What is wrong with Steubenville Ohio?

    From what I know, economic downturn (they’re somewhat dependent on steel industry). Their obsession (or more obsession) with their football team may have something to do with the fact that they don’t have much else to be happy about.

  111. 111
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    What is wrong with Steubenville Ohio?

    Echoing what WharGarbl wrote, but adding that it is also in the bible belt and is in the part of Ohio that still considers itself part of the deep south (Copperhead country).

  112. 112
    mikee

    @raven #103

    I’d like to resign from the human species and take the next starship to a better planet.

    NASA needs to pick up the pace here.

    Can I book a ticket too?

    Except that would mean letting these people win. I don’t want them to win.

  113. 113
    md

    Thanks for the info, SG & Gnuman. Reading their Stubenville files link was my first direct contact with them. Some heavy accusations there. Any other cases you know of where they’ve unambiguously assisted in justice? My inner-child comic book fan wants to believe they can help.

  114. 114
    ButchKitties

    Is there any pressure on the OHSAA to do like the NCAA did with Penn State, and ban Steubenville’s football team from tournament games for the next four years? That’s a petition I would sign.

  115. 115
    What a Maroon, el papa ateo

    Except that football is sort of the reverse of bodily autonomy. When I played, it was drilled into our heads that, even if the other guy was bigger and stronger, our superior willpower will allow us to force the other guy to do what we want. I was taught to run through the other player as if he wasn’t there. I was taught that I was to make the other player my ‘bitch’, force him to serve me, force him to submit. Football is all about imposing one’s will on the opponent and making them submit. And yes, even in junior high, sexual language was used — make him your bitch, fuck him up, make sure he’s on the bottom of the pile.

    Thanks for the insight. I never thought about it like this, but I’ve also never played organized football. Your comment makes me wonder if it’s even possible to have organized football without the rape culture. Maybe if the coaches taught the kids that what happens on the field (within the rules of the game) is by mutual consent, and shouldn’t affect their behavior off the field?

    I know I’m dreaming….

  116. 116
  117. 117
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Typical Akira comment. It’s all about you, even in a thread about a brutal gang rape.

    “Lowest on the adolescent food chain”…. right. Because there were no nerdy, socially awkward, and/or special-education girls in your high school.

    Fuck you and your whiny Nice Guy™ shtik.

  118. 118
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Wow. Wow. Wow.

    http://localleaks.blogs.ru/

    Anybody know much about anonymous and if they can be trusted? Id like to send them a donation. If true, this is calling-in-Department of Justice level stuff.

    No clue on how much is true, but damn. That’s going to seriously ruffle some feathers.

    I’m betting mostly if not all well deserved.

  119. 119
    ildi

    Oh, and the guy in the video, Michael Nodianos, is a freshman here at Ohio State University on a scholarship. I assume a baseball scholarship; the articles don’t say, except that he was a baseball player at Steubenville High. Is it petty of me to wish that he loses the scholarship over this?

  120. 120
    Eamon Knight

    You know that old SF story where a psychic super-baby wraps his whole town in a bubble that isolates the entire place from the rest of the universe? I want one of those around Steubenville.

  121. 121
    Taz

    Sam Gordon highlight clip.

  122. 122
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Ms Daisy Cutter,

    Typical Akira comment.

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/08/06/the-new-rules/

    Reset. One persistent problem here is that the regulars develop a history, and at times, it is utterly stultifying. You don’t let grudges go, you resurrect long-dead arguments, you start citing passages from year-old comment threads. Stop it. It inhibits people from changing, and it poisons every discussion with ancient irritations that most people don’t know anything about. Every time I start a new thread, pretend I asked you to look into a little red light, and poof, everything is reset. Treat each comment as an argument unto itself. Linking to old comments to demonstrate the perfidy of a commenter, rather than linking to evidence to refute the commenter’s claims, will be regarded as an abuse of the principle of charity. I am aware that this rule could be abused by repetitious jackholes who make the same claims in every thread and then run away from your answers, but let me do the enforcement.

  123. 123
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    thinking back ruffles feathers is a really poorly chosen phrase there. It doesn’t convey the impact this is and should have.

  124. 124
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I want one of those around Steubenville.

    Won’t work. The USA is full of Steubenvilles — towns that live for the local high school football team and treat the players (the ones who belong to the right churches and families, of course) as demigods. So what if a few girls get raped as long as the team brings home a championship. Berwick, PA. Williamsport, MD. Half the high schools in Florida. And Georgia. Alabama. Texas.

  125. 125
    Eamon Knight

    @123: Yeah, but Steubenville is the one we *know* about, and could serve as a salutary lesson: Protect football at the expense of human decency, and you will be scorned and ostracized by civilization.

  126. 126
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Protect football at the expense of human decency, [or?] you will be scorned and ostracized by civilization.

    Well, fuck. I already pretty much am, so hell no. I’ll go for decency. I have a shitload of past to make up for.

  127. 127
    No One

    I just want to point out to “Raging Bee” that report are that they drugged the girl. They not only took advantage of her incapacitation, they made her that way. She was an honor student and an athlete in her own school.

    When I 1st met my ex-wife she was three sheets to the wind. Her gang let me know that they were keeping an eye on her. Ya know what? I managed to see beyond her worshiping of the porcelain god, realized there was a good human being and got her phone number. She wasn’t a “bimbo” she was an accomplished artist.

    These football idiots are supposed to be the “warriors”, the men of strength. They should protect their community. Their dialog should be : “There is a member of our tribe who is vulnerable, we should protect her “. Instead they were the ones who made her vulnerable and treated her as if she was dead.

    Fuck their society and culture, fuck ‘em.

  128. 128
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Fuck off, SGBM.

  129. 129
    Raging Bee

    Your comment makes me wonder if it’s even possible to have organized football without the rape culture.

    I’m quite sure we could, as long as coaches emphasize that all the violence is strictly to achieve certain specific goals during the game, and is expected to stop outside of that narrow range of circumstances. Enforcing rules about “unsportsmanlike conduct” helps here, as well as reminding players of how the pros generally conduct themselves on TV.

    I think the biggest obstacle here would be the local yokels who demand victories at all costs, and shout down any coach or ref who tries to place fair play and mature conduct ahead of winning.

  130. 130
    glodson

    I have seen a few people wonder what is wrong with this town. The sad part is that this town is like many others in the tharl of football worship, complete with the inclusion of rape culture. This is a line of thinking passed down, the stars aren’t just untouchable, they are entitled. I wonder how many girls stayed silent after a rape because of the threat of reprisal. How many stayed silent because they even buy into the notion that they brought it onto themselves. How many stay silent because they don’t even know who to turn to.

    This is the sickening aspect of the football culture. This town in Ohio is no more fucked up than many other towns. Hell even larger cities aren’t immune. Hell, colleges can allow for this bullshit.

    I will bet many of the coaches here didn’t see anything wrong with it, and see it as reward due to their stars. It isn’t new or unique. I can only hope that this sickening rape culture that not only protects but also teaches rape gets drug into the light.

  131. 131
    Raging Bee

    I just want to point out to “Raging Bee” that report are that they drugged the girl.

    A fact that I never disputed.

  132. 132
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Ms. Daisy Cutter,

    Fuck off, SGBM.

    No. There is a reason for the rule, and it is to prevent the invocation of grudges like you’ve done there.

    The third of your four sentences in #116 is not a problem, but the rest are.

  133. 133
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    So, the fact that they drugged her rather negates the “why weren’t the boys taught to stay away from drunken bimbos?” plea. After all, she was only in her intoxicated state because they put her there.

    This was not a “oops, we didn’t know that having sex with drunk people was bad.” This is a case of deliberately drugging someone in order to repeatedly rape her.

    (slight difference)

  134. 134
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Oops: third and fourth of five sentences are not a problem.

  135. 135
    WharGarbl

    I will bet many of the coaches here didn’t see anything wrong with it, and see it as reward due to their stars.

    Kind of remind me of this.
    “Is not this simpler? Is this not your natural state? It’s the unspoken truth of humanity that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life’s joy in a mad scramble for power. For identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel.”
    For some reason, people seems to always want to put someone/something on a pedestal to be worshiped in one way or another.

  136. 136
    Eamon Knight

    @126:These football idiots are supposed to be the “warriors”, the men of strength.

    The problem is that they are warriors, team sports being basically ritualized combat. And in many or most cultures, warriors have always had special privileges (specifically including sexual privileges), have been exempt from the normal rules.

  137. 137
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    “Is not this simpler? Is this not your natural state? It’s the unspoken truth of humanity that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life’s joy in a mad scramble for power. For identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel.”

    Random aside: It has amused me since I first saw that film that the random German city is represented by … Cleveland, Ohio.

    And really, I say again. The problem isn’t that the boys weren’t taught “proper limits” or whatever. It is that they were taught that they were entitled to anything they wanted. And drugging and raping a girl was acceptable.

    And they were taught this by their community.

    And now, people are harassing the girl and her family. Because they dared complain.

  138. 138
    Raging Bee

    Poor, poor menz. The coaches and parents and the whole fucking town must have let them down. How awful!

    Well, yeah, it is pretty awful, especially since it seems to have led to, and enabled, the incident discussed here.

    And yes, the boys were let down: they could have had better role models and teachers, who could have taught them how to act like civilized, responsible, decent adults; and instead they’re being rewarded for harmful indecent behavior that isn’t even good enough to be called “juvenile.” That’s bad enough when it doesn’t lead to gang-rape, and truly evil when it does.

  139. 139
    Gregory Greenwood

    This story is filling me with horror and white hot, molten rage in equal measure. I can never understand the sheer depths of cruelty and the lack of empathy completely ordinary people are capable of. She was carried unconscious from one rape site to another – clearly incapable of offering consent – and no one thought that maybe, just maybe, this was rape? And that the victim might be in trouble? That someone should stop this horror show? Or call the police? I don’t understand how anyone can look at that and not see rape, which makes me think that they all knew it was rape, but none of them cared enough to do anything about it.

    I hope this haunts Michael Nodianos for the rest of his life

    I doubt it. He shows scant indication that he possesses anything approaching a conscience of his own, and it is not as though our rape-culture-riddled society is likely to hold him to account. It is doubtful he will be convicted of anything, or even if he is that the punishment will amount to much. He will probably be right back to joking about it with his buddies soon enough, most likely wearing his involvement as some sick badge of honour; that fondly remembered time he put that ‘bitch’ in her ‘place’.

    Or maybe he will try to paint himself as a martyr with all the usual rationalisations:- he’s was just an ordinary Joe being ‘one of the guys’, the ‘victim’ of a girl who got drunk and then blamed him and his buddies when she got cold feet, and then all those nasty, castrating feminazis jumped on the bandwagon to make him suffer because they hate men etc., etc. – oh, woe is little Mickey.

    The odds against him ever looking at what he has done and seeing the horror of it are long indeed. The toxic misogyny of hero-worshipping sports culture in the US has poisoned hin too comprehensively for that I’d wager.

    “The rape was just an excuse, I think,” said the 27-year-old Hubbard, who is No. 2 on the Big Red’s career rushing list.

    “What else are you going to tell your parents when you come home drunk like that and after a night like that?” said Hubbard, who is one of the team’s 19 coaches. “She had to make up something. Now people are trying to blow up our football program because of it.”

    This gives you a sense of just how deeply misogyny runs within at least some of the inhabitants of Steubenville, Ohio – they seriously think that the fortunes of their damnable football team are more imprtant than a woman’s bodily autonomy and right not to be raped. It’s a truly diseased, twisted inversion of what their priorities should be that speaks volumes of the contempt these coaches hold women in.

    Good grief, the girl was unconscious and unresponsive, people were joking that she was dead, and onlookers couldn’t figure out that this was rape. She didn’t say “no,” after all.

    Even saying ‘no’ isn’t enough to satisfy rape apologists – it is only really a ‘no’ if she actively tries to knife the man who is engaging in ‘coercive sex play’ (they would never use the word ‘rape’). Or if the man in question is Black, that works for and their intersectional bigotry too.

    Of course, if the woman resists violently in this fashion, then she immediately goes directly from consenting-through-not-resisting-enough, to begging-to-get-herself-killed-by-fighting-back.

    It’s a lose/lose situation for women, just the way rape apologists like it.

    It’s days like this that I just hate people.

  140. 140
    pacal

    One of the fucking morons said:

    “What else are you going to tell your parents when you come home drunk like that and after a night like that?” said Hubbard, who is one of the team’s 19 coaches. “She had to make up something. Now people are trying to blow up our football program because of it.”

    Hey shithead if she was unconscious she could not consent so guess what it means? It means, vomitous sack of slime, she was taped!

    God the misogyny goes on and on .

  141. 141
    glodson

    @134 And they truly worship the football stars. By putting the stars on that pedestal, it creates that air. And the girls? That is the reward.

    And I am sure these rapists have been taught this, both implicitly and explicitly. I shudder to imagine how often this plays out every year across the US with no one being punished for, or even called out for, rape just because of high school football.

    I really fear even thinking about what surrounds college football.

  142. 142
    consciousness razor

    Well, yeah, it is pretty awful, especially since it seems to have led to, and enabled, the incident discussed here.

    Are you dishonest, or are you so stupid you don’t actually comprehend what I said?

    Here’s one way to tell: try answering my question.

    How is not telling them [assuming that is the case] what “risk” or “trouble” it would cause the rapists anywhere approaching the most disgraceful aspect of this?

  143. 143
    No One

    Eamon Knight

    The problem is that they are warriors, team sports being basically ritualized combat. And in many or most cultures, warriors have always had special privileges (specifically including sexual privileges), have been exempt from the normal rules.

    You are correct. I am hopeless romantic sometimes.

  144. 144
    ChristineRose

    Didn’t any of those so-called coaches ever say to the players anything like “You’re young, you’re strong and healthy, you’re good-looking, and your town reveres you as demigods, so you should be able to get laid without having to settle for a drunk bimbo that you share with other guys”? Didn’t any of them say “Look, guys, if you can’t get a girl with all the advantages you have, you may have a problem, and taking advantage of someone who’s drugged isn’t the answer”?

    Moving beyond the whole question of whether the gender-specific slur was or was not appropriate here, the fact that football players can get laid is irrelevant. They wanted to hurt a woman; they wanted to enjoy hurting a woman. They hurt her because she was vulnerable. Whether she had been drugged against her will or whether she made a bad decision about drinking is irrelevant. No one, male or female, could live a life never doing anything that might somehow make them vulnerable to someone who feels they are entitled to do that to another human being.

  145. 145
    WharGarbl

    @Gregory
    #138

    She was carried unconscious from one rape site to another – clearly incapable of offering consent – and no one thought that maybe, just maybe, this was rape? And that the victim might be in trouble?

    Some probably did thought so… but…

    That someone should stop this horror show?

    Judging by the response from the town, the few that knew it’s wrong probably fear reprisal from the town for “ruining” their stars.

    Or call the police?

    Again, given the above, some probably fear the reprisal from the police.

    I don’t understand how anyone can look at that and not see rape, which makes me think that they all knew it was rape, but none of them cared enough to do anything about it.

    Either not cared, or fearful of the consequences if they intervened.

  146. 146
    Alverant

    What the football players did they did out of a sense of entitlement. Football is such an obsession that the players probably could have found willing partners. Instead they CHOSE to drug another human being and rape her repeatedly. I don’t get that thought process. It must be an extreme of the thrill you get when you do something you know is wrong and get away with it. They could do it so it was acceptable for them to do it.

    Can’t the state school board do something? This may be out of the way of professional and college sports but I bet the state could shut down the football program for several years. This is nothing but wishful thinking but I’d like all professional scouts and sports to have a list of schools that have been black listed. Anyone attending those schools won’t be considered for professional sports. That would go a long way for tearing down the Football Uber Alles attitude. (Sorry for the Godwin.)

  147. 147
    md

    No One, Esteleth,

    Has it been reported/established by any major news outlet they drugged her? Have you read it somewhere besides the Anonymous link? I have not. I dont believe they have been charged as such for that.

  148. 148
    WharGarbl

    What the football players did they did out of a sense of entitlement. Football is such an obsession that the players probably could have found willing partners. Instead they CHOSE to drug another human being and rape her repeatedly. I don’t get that thought process. It must be an extreme of the thrill you get when you do something you know is wrong and get away with it. They could do it so it was acceptable for them to do it.

    I think it’s also a form of power. Bedding a willing partner? That’s easy. Raping a woman? Damn, you’re one tough man!

    Can’t the state school board do something? This may be out of the way of professional and college sports but I bet the state could shut down the football program for several years.

    I guess that they’re afraid to get voted out in the next election. I mean, see it from their side.
    Do nothing: Nothing happens. If they do nothing, all the blame gets spread around (the parent, the school, the town, the foot-ball player, the girl/victim, etc).
    Shut down football program: Have a metric fuck ton of people angry at you for shutting down the football program.

  149. 149
    SallyStrange

    What I can never understand is do these apologists (and the rapists themselves) not have sisters and mothers and daughters?

    Of course! Apparently you are not getting how patriarchy functions to justify rape culture.

    The rapists mothers and sisters and daughters are theirs. If any other man tries to mess with their cattle women, that is bad because that’s their property. Remember the madonna/whore thing? Their women are the madonnas. The whores are the ones who get raped. If their women step out of line and do something whoreish in their eyes (like getting raped) then all bets are off. They might still be worthy of protection, they might not. In more misogynist, patriarchal cultures, getting raped or assaulted is automatic entry into the whore category and can get a woman murdered. In the USA she might just be dragged through the mud, like the young woman here. The point is, the whole process is predicated on women being things and possessions, not persons and human beings, so the question of empathy is entirely irrelevant.

  150. 150
    WharGarbl

    @No One
    #142

    @Eamon Knight

    The problem is that they are warriors, team sports being basically ritualized combat. And in many or most cultures, warriors have always had special privileges (specifically including sexual privileges), have been exempt from the normal rules.

    You are correct. I am hopeless romantic sometimes.

    Also, if I read the story correctly, the girl is from another town. So in a sense, she’s not one of them. And what do warriors do to women in another tribe that they “conquered”?

  151. 151
    WharGarbl

    @SallyStrange
    #148
    …or that a woman being raped is a shameful thing to the man who owned her. Or…
    “How dare she get herself raped and bring shame upon the family!?”

  152. 152
    montanto

    I think what makes this truly repulsive is the main reason these degenerates got caught is that none of them thought it was a crime.

  153. 153
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Esteleth @ #132: Yep. It’s so much more than “Ladies, don’t get drunk around men or it’s your fault!”. It’s “Don’t exist where men might ever be or it’s your fault. Also, stop being a manhating prude and don’t you dare mistrust men.” Heads they win, tails you lose.

    Akira @ #39: I’m with Ms. Daisy here, it’s kind of really fucked up to make it about your pain being bullied. Like, I get bringing up that the toxic culture of high school sports fetishization makes the athletes often shitty to most people. I get pointing out that students seen as subhuman of all sorts (whether for being girls, disabled, or perceived as a minority in general) are often targeted. But it’s like 32 flavours of fucked up to say that as a male nerd in special ed you were at the bottom of the food chain because you got punched in the arm WHEN YOU’RE ON A THREAD ABOUT A GIRL BEING DRUGGED AND GANG RAPED. Oh my fucking god.

  154. 154
    maddog1129

    Coaches are teachers. John Wooden, of UCLA basketball, said when he retired that it was “the last game I ever TAUGHT.” He didn’t just build a winning program, he tried to teach his players about character and about life.

    The comments to the effect that the coaches on the team should have been telling the players are correct, but the suggestion as to what to tell them aims too low: e.g., “you are a star, you should be able to get sex without stooping to drunken bimbos,” or something to that effect. Yes, the coaches should be teaching the players, but the suggested admonition is NOT what should be taught. These are high-schoolers. They should be teaching the players to be responsible: no drinking, no sex. It’s too risky for either one at that age. They have been teaching something about delayed gratification and hard work, after all. A little more delayed gratification shouldn’t be too difficult to think of as go-to advice.

  155. 155
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Has it been reported/established by any major news outlet they drugged her?

    Why not do your own homework? There is a link in the OP.

  156. 156
    Gregory Greenwood

    WharGarbl @ 144;

    Perhaps you are right, but a dominant culture throughout the entire authority structure of the town (and beyond) that doesn’t merely show disinterest but actively threatens reprisals for stopping or reporting rapes is perhaps even worse than that particular group of onlookers not caring enough to act.

  157. 157
    md

    Am doing it Nerd. Raw story says ‘reportedly drugged’, but no link. Reported by who? Anonymous says the same. I see no mention of drugging in the NYtimes article, other than to say its too late for toxicology tests to find out.

    So who has reported she was drugged? Is it ‘reporting’ if Anonymous says so? Hey, I freely admit in an above link my mixed but admiring feelings for what Anonymous is doing, im the one who originally linked to them, but it seems caution around their statements is in order.

  158. 158
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Coaches are teachers. John Wooden, of UCLA basketball, said when he retired that it was “the last game I ever TAUGHT.” He didn’t just build a winning program, he tried to teach his players about character and about life.

    Is that heart warming “this is what sports is really about” crap true outside of movies?

    I haven’t seen it. I grew up in town like this one. It’s just not how it works.

    Not only are these boys privileged by being straight, white males, they are sports players. We need to work on (and are working on) eliminating sexism and we’d have to also eliminate the privileges sports players get. No playing favorites and letting things slide and covering for them. No wonder they think they can get away with anything and that everything is theirs to be had. That’s exactly what they are raised and taught to believe.

    These are high-schoolers. They should be teaching the players to be responsible: no drinking, no sex. It’s too risky for either one at that age. They have been teaching something about delayed gratification and hard work, after all. A little more delayed gratification shouldn’t be too difficult to think of as go-to advice.

    Yeah, because teaching abstinence and just say no is proven to be so effective. We need true sex ed with constant lessons on CONSENT.

  159. 159
    WharGarbl

    @maddog1129
    #153

    They should be teaching the players to be responsible: no drinking, no sex. It’s too risky for either one at that age. They have been teaching something about delayed gratification and hard work, after all. A little more delayed gratification shouldn’t be too difficult to think of as go-to advice.

    Or at least teach them actual sportsmanship and apply it to their everyday life, especially the part about respect others.
    Regarding no drinking and no sex… that’s a bit like abstinence education which rarely works. Probably more useful to teach them self-control and drill into them the correct idea about consent (part of which, don’t take advantage of drunk woman).

    @Gregory Greenwood
    #155

    Perhaps you are right, but a dominant culture throughout the entire authority structure of the town (and beyond) that doesn’t merely show disinterest but actively threatens reprisals for stopping or reporting rapes is perhaps even worse than that particular group of onlookers not caring enough to act.

    … and the fear is that such an authority structure exists.
    Or at best, the structure is such that those with a working moral compass are excluded from such “parties”. Essentially those who would’ve stopped it were never invited or placed in position where they could have stopped it.

  160. 160
    No One

    md

    No One, Esteleth,

    Has it been reported/established by any major news outlet they drugged her? Have you read it somewhere besides the Anonymous link? I have not. I dont believe they have been charged as such for that.

    Major news outlets seem to be relying on Anonymous as a source. As are the prosecutors. Charges are still pending. It’s a big mess, erased videos, recused judges, possible police cover up, etc… There is some scuttlebutt that the guy that did the video in the article was the ex-boyfriend of the girl “allegedly” raped.

    It’s possible the the video is just a joke and the boys didn’t do a single thing that they confessed to on the video. You know… boys just exaggerating. But funny thing, as time goes by more evidence, including other victims, seems to be coming out of the woodwork.

  161. 161
    WharGarbl

    @JAL
    #157

    Is that heart warming “this is what sports is really about” crap true outside of movies?

    I think so. It’s just that those coaches are not “interesting” media wise (viewers love a good train-wreck. Good people? Not so much).

  162. 162
    Ze Madmax

    md, I don’t mean to rain on anyone’s shit parade, but what exactly is the point of asking whether she was drugged or not? Let’s assume she wasn’t, and her pukes-everywhere-and-can’t-stand level of intoxication is self inflicted. Does that matter? Is she suddenly less raped? Are the assholes who did this (and the assholes who thought it was funny) less deserving of being paraded as amoral shitfucks?

    A girl was severe intoxicated, dragged around on her wrists and ankles and REPEATEDLY RAPED. Why in the name of the ever-loving flying fuck is it relevant HOW she came to be intoxicated? Does it really mean anything? Why the fuck even ask that?

  163. 163
    WharGarbl

    @Ze Madmax
    #161

    md, I don’t mean to rain on anyone’s shit parade, but what exactly is the point of asking whether she was drugged or not? Let’s assume she wasn’t, and her pukes-everywhere-and-can’t-stand level of intoxication is self inflicted. Does that matter? Is she suddenly less raped? Are the assholes who did this (and the assholes who thought it was funny) less deserving of being paraded as amoral shitfucks?

    It matters in terms of how much stuff the prosecution can charge the player for. If she is drugged, there are charges that can be brought against the player that gives the prosecutor a better chance of justice being served. Furthermore, if she’s drugged and they can provide evidence of that, it makes it much more likely for a rape charge to stick.

  164. 164
    md

    No One,

    Am I sensing some sarcasm in your last post, perhaps directed at me? Perhaps im being sensitive.

    I merely want the truth, in case that’s unclear by my posts.

  165. 165
    No One

    md

    Am doing it Nerd. Raw story says ‘reportedly drugged’, but no link. Reported by who? Anonymous says the same. I see no mention of drugging in the NYtimes article, other than to say its too late for toxicology tests to find out.

    Which is why I wrote “reports are”… and not “Eyewitnesses say” or “according to prosecutors”.
    My personal take on this is that this was in part revenge on an ex-girlfriend. Perhaps time will tell if I’m right.

  166. 166
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Md why is this the thing you are focusing on?

  167. 167
    md

    Ze MadMax,

    Fuck right off, after you read post #162.

  168. 168
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Got it

  169. 169
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    My personal take on this is that this was in part revenge on an ex-girlfriend. Perhaps time will tell if I’m right.

    Gee, I think it all speaks for itself, you an MRA fuckwit doubting a rape. Call me surprised at your skepticism to an obvious crime…

  170. 170
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Who is that directed to Nerd?

  171. 171
    md

    No One,

    Sure, Im with you, its sounds plausible and Saltsman’s tweets sound ominious. But a pre-planned drug-induced revenge-rape is quite a difference in criminal cases, no? Are you ready to prosecute that based on what we know now? Just in case its not clear by posts, obviously I believe heinous crimes were committed here.

    We’ve seen in the past the mob get carried away in these emotional cases. I am emotional about it, its natural. I suggest we all pledge to get the whole, unvarnished truth, and keep the light on those who would obstruct. Basically, where’s the trust but verify attitude in the Fatwa-rape post from just a couple days ago, that was just retracted?

  172. 172
    WharGarbl

    @Nerd
    #168

    Gee, I think it all speaks for itself, you an MRA fuckwit doubting a rape. Call me surprised at your skepticism to an obvious crime…

    I think he’s saying that the rape victim’s ex-boyfriend may have drugged her (the rape victim) as revenge. So that her ex-boyfriend may be complicit in the rape.

    I don’t think he’s doubting that a rape happened, but that who else is complicit in her rape.

  173. 173
    allegro

    Are you dishonest, or are you so stupid you don’t actually comprehend what I said?

    Here’s one way to tell: try answering my question.

    How is not telling them [assuming that is the case] what “risk” or “trouble” it would cause the rapists anywhere approaching the most disgraceful aspect of this?

    Your comments read as the all too typical “But what about the menz?” argument, especially when tainted with sexist terms and assumptions, i.e. drunken bimbo.

    In essence you are arguing that young men shouldn’t drug, gang rape, urinate on, and drag around an unconscious young woman from party to party because *they* could get into trouble. Screw the young woman – actually ALL young women and any other victims that may be unfortunate enough to cross the paths of men who are apprently incapable of the redemptive qualities of empathy, compassion, and doing right just because it’s the right thing to do. That is fucked up.

  174. 174
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Who is that directed to Nerd?

    Dang, screwed up. Responding to No one, who isn’t MD, who I thought I was responding to. Sorry No One, my goof.

  175. 175
    nora

    I find it horrifying that it only came to light hours later with rumors and photos. Why didn’t someone call 911 at the time? How could anyone watch laughing men carry an unconcious woman into a party and not think – this is wrong?

    The witnesses are guilty of something – maybe not in a court of law but in a court of human decency if there were such a thing.

  176. 176
    WharGarbl

    Sure, Im with you, its sounds plausible and Saltsman’s tweets sound ominious. But a pre-planned drug-induced revenge-rape is quite a difference in criminal cases, no? Are you ready to prosecute that based on what we know now? Just in case its not clear by posts, obviously I believe heinous crimes were committed here.

    True. But in a way it may be considered a distraction from the fact that a girl is raped.

    We’ve seen in the past the mob get carried away in these emotional cases. I am emotional about it, its natural. I suggest we all pledge to get the whole, unvarnished truth, and keep the light on those who would obstruct. Basically, where’s the trust but verify attitude in the Fatwa-rape post from just a couple days ago, that was just retracted?

    In that post, starting from post #10 there’s already verification starting.

  177. 177
    No One

    You are mistaken Nerd of Redhead. I am not doubting rape at all. I believe that there is a “rape crew” operating out of that High school. From what I’ve gleaned by visiting local blogs is that the guy who made the video was the ex-boyfriend of the victim. It could be incorrect information, I don’t know. But my suspicion is that he fed her to the “Rape Crew”.

    And as a personal favor I would ask that you ask me to clarify 1st before calling me a rape apologist.

    Please?

  178. 178
    Ze Madmax

    WharGarbl @ #162

    If we were discussing the facts of the case, then maybe (big maybe) whether her intoxication was self-inflicted or not would matter. Right now, such a discussion seems to be shifting from the issue (a girl was gang raped and the shit hits the fan SIX MONTHS LATER) to discussing minutiae that, quite frankly, is irrelevant to the points I brought up.

    That is, whether she was drugged or not, while it may matter for the purposes of criminal prosecution, it does little to change the fact that one girl was repeatedly raped, the perpetrators don’t seem to be particularly hung up about it (although I bet they’ll be coming up with notpologies galore soon) and an entire fucking town has decided to unite in protecting these assholes because hey, football and shit. And quite frankly, that sort of discussing skirts uncomfortably close to victim-blaming territory.

    md @ #166

    And fuck you too right back.

  179. 179
    md

    —Dang, screwed up. Responding to No one, who isn’t MD, who I thought I was responding to. Sorry No One, my goof

    Because, you see, who says something matters more than what is said. Change it to No One and there is no problem. Who, whom.

  180. 180
    ChristineRose

    There has been some speculation that she may have been drugged, but she did not receive timely medical care and toxicology was worthless. I haven’t watched the bragging videos, but I presume no one mentions drugging her.

    She was 16, giving her alcohol was illegal.

  181. 181
    G Pierce (Was ~G~)

    This is one of the earlier references to the victim being drugged that I remember reading. However, I noticed in later stories it wasn’t mentioned, so maybe that was pure speculation unable to be substantiated. I don’t remember any articles at cleveland.com saying why drugging was suspected. Of course the case is already horrifying beyond words without that happening.

  182. 182
    md

    —In that post, starting from post #10 there’s already verification starting.

    Gotcha, WharlGarbl, and Im trying to verify the ‘drugged’ detail.

  183. 183
    No One

    We are square Redhead. No worries.

    MD. This is why I tried to use personal language. “It’s my opinion” etc… I’m not writing an article for AP. Technically what all of us are doing here is speculating to a degree.

  184. 184
    ildi

    There has been some speculation that she may have been drugged, but she did not receive timely medical care and toxicology was worthless.

    She didn’t receive timely medical care because she didn’t remember any of it and found out when the shit hit the social media fan a few days later (I think she found out August 14, party was August 11). By then she had already showered, and according to womenshealth.gov

    Rohypnol stays in the body for several hours, and can be detected in the urine up to 72 hours after taking it. GHB leaves the body in 12 hours.

  185. 185
    WharGarbl

    @ildi
    #183

    She didn’t receive timely medical care because she didn’t remember any of it and found out when the shit hit the social media fan a few days later (I think she found out August 14, party was August 11). By then she had already showered, and according to womenshealth.gov

    Rohypnol stays in the body for several hours, and can be detected in the urine up to 72 hours after taking it. GHB leaves the body in 12 hours.

    Well, there’s a good news if it’s either drug (good new in terms of bringing justice against those who drugged the girl).

    GHB Detection

    Rohypnol Detection
    It may be possible to detect the drug in hair after the 72 hours period.

  186. 186
    WharGarbl

    @Ze Madmax
    #177

    If we were discussing the facts of the case, then maybe (big maybe) whether her intoxication was self-inflicted or not would matter. Right now, such a discussion seems to be shifting from the issue (a girl was gang raped and the shit hits the fan SIX MONTHS LATER) to discussing minutiae that, quite frankly, is irrelevant to the points I brought up.

    Unless I missed it in search, your first post here is #161, which jump on md for talking about a possible revenge motive by the ex-boyfriend drugging the girl. You did not bring up any point before that post.

    That is, whether she was drugged or not, while it may matter for the purposes of criminal prosecution, it does little to change the fact that one girl was repeatedly raped, the perpetrators don’t seem to be particularly hung up about it (although I bet they’ll be coming up with notpologies galore soon) and an entire fucking town has decided to unite in protecting these assholes because hey, football and shit. And quite frankly, that sort of discussing skirts uncomfortably close to victim-blaming territory.

    Discussion here appears to have a tendency to run in parallel (the lack of a uniform way to link back to the post one’s replying to can cause some confusion). No one here is disputing the fact that a girl is raped, and they she definitely a victim here and the fault lies, at the very least, the rapists (and the school, and the coaches, and the town, and etc). The discussion of drugging explains why the girl didn’t report her rape (she was drugged, and therefore didn’t remember anything), and removes another way for people to blame her.

  187. 187
    Pteryxx

    What I can never understand is do these apologists (and the rapists themselves) not have sisters and mothers and daughters?

    At one point, a voice belonging to someone off-camera says, “Trent and Ma’lik raped someone.” The two boys charged in the rape are Trent Mays and Ma’lik Richmond. It’s unclear how many other Steubenville students are in the room at the time, although at least two of them, who remain off-camera, admonish Nodianos for making light of a rape. “What if that was your daughter?” one of them asks. Nodianos replies simply, “But it isn’t.”

    Source (Deadspin article)

    Good grief, the girl was unconscious and unresponsive, people were joking that she was dead, and onlookers couldn’t figure out that this was rape. She didn’t say “no,” after all.

    From the same article, citing Nodianos’ twitter account:

    It isn’t really rape because you don’t know if she wanted to or not.

  188. 188
    WharGarbl

    “What if that was your daughter?” one of them asks. Nodianos replies simply, “But it isn’t.”

    So, just a sex toy. Got it.
    You can’t rape a sex toy man.
    Everything alright man, IT’s just a sex toy. IT’s not a human. He didn’t rape anyone.

  189. 189
    Ze Madmax

    WharGarbl @ #185

    Unless I missed it in search, your first post here is #161, which jump on md for talking about a possible revenge motive by the ex-boyfriend drugging the girl. You did not bring up any point before that post.

    Except md didn’t bring up the ex-boyfriend revenge thing (that was No One @ #159). The “points” I referred to where the ones I made in #161 (and restated in my next paragraph in #177): the discussion on whether she was drugged or not seemed like a morbid focus on what (IMO) is irrelevant minutiae. And given that arguing on my arguing of whether what I see as a morbid focus on irrelevant minutiae is such or not is even more irrelevant than the minutiae itself, I’ll shut up now.

  190. 190
    Pteryxx

    Ogvorbis:

    Except that football is sort of the reverse of bodily autonomy. When I played, it was drilled into our heads that, even if the other guy was bigger and stronger, our superior willpower will allow us to force the other guy to do what we want. I was taught to run through the other player as if he wasn’t there. I was taught that I was to make the other player my ‘bitch’, force him to serve me, force him to submit. Football is all about imposing one’s will on the opponent and making them submit. And yes, even in junior high, sexual language was used — make him your bitch, fuck him up, make sure he’s on the bottom of the pile.

    What a Maroon:

    Thanks for the insight. I never thought about it like this, but I’ve also never played organized football. Your comment makes me wonder if it’s even possible to have organized football without the rape culture. Maybe if the coaches taught the kids that what happens on the field (within the rules of the game) is by mutual consent, and shouldn’t affect their behavior off the field?

    I know I’m dreaming….

    For what it’s worth (which is damned little at this point) when I learned to play ice hockey, it was all about consent and playing by the rules and the honor code. Playing full contact was a privilege to be taken seriously, while cheap shots and intent to injure were condemned from the first day. So was taking aggression off the ice or even past the end of a play – the whistle blows, you frickin’ STOP, no taking late hits or grudges and everyone shakes hands after every game. This suited me beautifully… I *like* being able to plow into each other and match our full strength without anyone getting seriously hurt. I don’t mind bruises and getting knocked on my ass and laughing about it over pizza afterwards. Heck, I even played as a substitute for other teams in our league, against my own teammates. Most everyone in our league, with a handful of exceptions, played clean and hard and enjoyed each others’ company.
    -

    But we were also a college beer league team with no accreditation, playing other serious but recreational teams to crowds of a few dozen. My little fundie school didn’t have any sports teams and I’ve never played the sort of competitive full-contact sports that lead to scholarships and scouting reports. And frankly, the whole ‘make them your bitch’ culture that Ogvorbis describes makes me sick. I would’ve quit rather than play alongside folks like that. (The few macho-ego types we did have were eminently tauntable… all I had to do was act friendly, offer to help them up, and they’d start losing it and become worthless on the ice.)
    -

    So yeah… I can report that yes, a clean and honorable sports culture does exist, even alongside violent physicality. It just seems to get sacrificed quickly when winning means anything at all beyond the rink or field.
    -

    I’ve also spoken to a few pro hockey players about this (as a fan) who said that being a professional means keeping control and playing clean, not cheating, not taking stupid ego-driven penalties, and remembering that it’s only a game with players, not a war. They tended to be called ‘old school’ style players, leaders, and captains. I get the feeling fair play isn’t a valued attribute in US pro sports these days.

  191. 191
    michaellatiolais

    Funny. When I was still buried in Catholic nonsense, Steubenville, Ohio, was a very familiar name to me. Why? This place.

  192. 192
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    And frankly, the whole ‘make them your bitch’ culture that Ogvorbis describes makes me sick.

    Makes me ill, too. And I was part of that shit.

  193. 193
    chrismorrow

    Re: Carlie @ 86

    One of many parts of this story I can’t wrap my mind around; not only is the victim stigmatized but that’s a predictable phenomenon. A town where a woman would be hated because she was raped… my first instinct is that that’s fictional psychodrama, like The Wicker Man. But no, it’s rape culture, it’s real and it’s everywhere.

    What the hell do the apologists have to say? That my subconscious Wicker-Man-intuition (which I know is born out of desperation combined with a projection of my social circle’s attitudes), is actually true, and the average football town would totally condemn the team and support the victim, and this is just a fluke? Or would they go further still, deny that Steubenville engaged in cover-up, rape culture, “slut-shaming”, etc? At which point it’s unclear what would count as those things, unless of course the apologists go further still and say the whole thing’s made up. Yeah, I guess I bet on the last one.

    There are a lot of odd parallels between today’s rape apologists and today’s Confederate-slavery apologists. Neither of them outright says the evil in question is/was good; they just qualify and condition their views to the point of uselessness. We need to counter that as far as possible.

  194. 194
    Inaji

    Glodson:

    they are entitled

    This is the core of the whole thing. Toxic entitlement – hey, you’re heroes, you win games! Here’s the world on a platter, you’re great because you take what you want. Get enough of that poison in you and you buy the hype and think you can take whatever you like, including people, because you’re entitled.

  195. 195
    chrismorrow

    Wait, I’m getting a better sense of the timeline here. Apparently the relevant Facebook comments, pictures, and tweets were released the night of the assault, and not via Anonymous hacking? Then how the hell did this not become a story until now? Christ.

  196. 196
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Wait, I’m getting a better sense of the timeline here. Apparently the relevant Facebook comments, pictures, and tweets were released the night of the assault, and not via Anonymous hacking? Then how the hell did this not become a story until now? Christ.

    There was some line in the Anon post about someone having to leave the room because they were so disgusted.

    uh, right

    Why didn’t they fucking stop it or call the cops if they were so disgusted?

    Or do anything?

  197. 197
    Rawnaeris, Lulu Cthulhu

    I’m posting this before I finish the last 10 posts or so of the thread.
     
    md, ethyl alcohol is a drug. It does not matter if there were extra drugs in her drinks to further intoxicate her. She was drugged, even if by alcohol. They could have very easily been spiking drinks she expected to have 1 shot with 2 or more. There is no difference between using a ‘date rape drug’ and plain old pressuring someone to drink well past their limits.
     
    I’ll finish the thread now.

  198. 198
    glodson

    @193 Caine; and those players, and the other students, buy into this entitlement. It taught by the parents. These rapists are produced by this line of thinking. Which it is why it important to not reduce them to only monsters. These are teens taught by their culture to behave like this. They are hardly unique. This why it is important to realize that this culture is widespread. It isn’t just football. But some rich kids can think like this. I imagine being a part of a gang, the right family, and likely other groups I am not even thinking of.

    They celebrated this rape. They laughed about this rape. They joked about this rape. All because, in the lens of this rape culture, they felt they didn’t do anything wrong.

    This is why feminism is important. Just thinking of the other thread where some thought the concern over feminism was petty and unimportant. Feminism is in direct opposition to the rape culture, a culture that robs people of their humanity.

    Sorry for the rant.

  199. 199
    Inaji

    Glodson, don’t even think of feeling sorry for that rant, it was a rant of beauty and truth.

    These rapists are produced by this line of thinking. Which it is why it important to not reduce them to only monsters.

    Damn straight. Othering doesn’t help, it simply encourages all people, everywhere, that it couldn’t possibly be them, not them, when they stare proudly at their football/insert X here star son/brother/friend/relative/whatever.

  200. 200
    glodson

    @195. Fear might have kept some from speaking out at first. These are teens encouraged to be something of bullies. With parents who are bullies, with authority. We’ve seen the threats that some christians can’t wait to make. I imagine the assholes who would cover up the gang rape of a teen would be on par with that.

    That doesn’t excuse the inaction, but it isn’t trivial. This girl who was the victim will likely have to leave the town because she was attacked. A whistle-blower would be in the same boat. Because football is so fucking important. God, I want to puke.

  201. 201
    glodson

    Exactly. I get the urge to label the rapists monsters. Even if one doesn’t intend to other them, the language can shape how we think. Like the gender based insults, which I never considered until I lurked around here. After some thought, I got it.

    This all brings me back to a quote from my favorite author, who defined a sin as treating people as things. Here we have town doing that. The girl was a thing for the players. Hell, the players are things there to win games. Once that job is done, the town will forget those “heroes.” These treatments aren’t equivalent, by any stretch, but those players will learn the hard way when those protections are up. Sadly, it will be the wrong lesson, so this shitty way will be passed to the next generation.

    And thanks. It took me forever to type out these badly spelled posts on my 3 year old daughter’s new tablet. Why I don’t actually own one is curently a mystery.

  202. 202
    athyco

    Hell, the players are things there to win games. Once that job is done, the town will forget those “heroes.” These treatments aren’t equivalent, by any stretch, but those players will learn the hard way when those protections are up. Sadly, it will be the wrong lesson, so this shitty way will be passed to the next generation.

    I don’t know that I can completely agree with that. The alumni who own businesses in town will be more likely to hire local football heroes. There will be pictures of them in the trophy case if they go on to do anything notable (sports-wise) in college or after. It’s much more difficult to have that recognition for the scholarly woman.

    Regina Benjamin and I graduated from high school together. I went to the school last year and, early for my meeting, perused the trophies and wall of honor in the lobby. Among the “old folk,” there were the former principals (male), some coaches, male athletes. Regina wasn’t among them…and she’s the current United States Surgeon General.

    I work with the 16 county schools’ scholastic teams (middle and high school) and sent them all a “worksheet” naming famous American women for them to research and write a pyramid question. I made sure that Regina’s name was on our former school’s list. They wrote a question for her, but I had to ask if they’d realized she was a graduate. They still had not.

  203. 203
    Inaji

    Athyco:

    They wrote a question for her, but I had to ask if they’d realized she was a graduate. They still had not.

    This highlights a problem which is the result of the systemic toxic sexism we all live in, one which goes hand in hand with those gorged on entitlement – the invisibility of women. Unless a women is currently being seen as an object worth pursuit or an object to be put back into place, or an object which can provide something, they are invisible.

    Hell, in another thread going on right now, there’s a man who is insistent on making me invisible, down to my apparent writing in invisible pixels, because he doesn’t want to deal with the pesky fact of rape.

    The invisible woman syndrome is yet another way to make sure that women are not seen as human beings. We’re only seen when we’re convenient or inconvenient.

  204. 204
    glodson

    @201: You are right, I did not look at it like that. I was going with the stereotype that that the high school star peaked in high school. Some do, but not all. Those that don’t can ride that privilege all their lives.

  205. 205
    chigau (違う)

    Regina Benjamin, Surgeon General of the United States
    ranks below the local ‘King of the Used Car Salesmen’
    hhmm

  206. 206
    LykeX

    “What else are you going to tell your parents when you come home drunk like that and after a night like that?” said Hubbard, who is one of the team’s 19 coaches. “She had to make up something. Now people are trying to blow up our football program because of it.”

    I want to hurt this guy. It’s not nice, it’s not even right, but GODDAMMIT I want to hurt him.

    And then there’s the head coach:

    Nearly nose to nose with a reporter, he growled: “You’re going to get yours. And if you don’t get yours, somebody close to you will.”

    It’s not hard to see where these attitudes come from.

    FUCK THESE LOW-LIFE SACKS OF SHIT. This is making me seriously lose my cool, so I’ll shut up now before I say something really stupid.

  207. 207
    No One

    Caine, Fleur du mal

    Unless a women is currently being seen as an object worth pursuit or an object to be put back into place, or an object which can provide something, they are invisible.

    One of my feistier female relatives told once told her obnoxious boyfriend : “So unless you can fuck me, talk down to me, or get me to wash your underwear, you have no reason to stick around do you?”

    I really miss her.

  208. 208
    No One

    Caine, Fleur du mal

    Unless a women is currently being seen as an object worth pursuit or an object to be put back into place, or an object which can provide something, they are invisible.

    One of my feistier female relatives once told her obnoxious boyfriend : “So unless you can fuck me, talk down to me, or get me to wash your underwear, you have no reason to stick around do you?”

    I really miss her.

  209. 209
    No One

    Sorry for the double post.

  210. 210
    athyco

    Hey, feisty female relatives deserve double posts, No One.

    Bigger kids on the playground would pick on my dad, and when he thought they were coming at him for damage, he’d cut for home. Rounding the corner onto his street, he’d start yelling MaaaaaaaaaaaaaaREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. His sister Marie would be on the sidewalk about the time he hit the front porch. If the big kids didn’t stop dead in their tracks, she’d beat the snot out of them.

    My mom’s grandmother once had to stay in the kitchen to keep something from burning while she danced with the need to pee. When she finally headed for the outhouse, she realized she couldn’t wait and ducked behind a bush. A tramp that her husband had agreed to hire for the rest of the day in return for a meal caught her with the skirts bunched, mumbled incoherently, and darted to the house to sit on the back steps. She approached and stopped in front of him to say, “If you can break that habit, mister, I’ll bear the shame.”

  211. 211
    karraflarra

    This just makes me want to scream. And I want to join robot Bender in his mission to “kill all humans”.

  212. 212
    DLC

    The sport they play has little to do with it. It’s the popular sport of the moment, and 100 years from now some other activity will be the popular one, and American Football will be looked upon with disdain.
    What matters is the culture of Everything for the Team! mentality, and the fact that these youths were raised to be aggressive, combative, competitive and arrogant. Being The Team they can do no wrong, any excess is excused and nothing short of outright murder is cause to break up the team. You can see it all over. There are not words to express my disgust and anger at this sort of thing happening.

  213. 213
    Jen Hovelsen

    I don’t think it’s a football culture necessarily. It’s more about entitlement that can accompany sports culture. I live in a town where football is not a big “thing,” the la crosse team is more popular. My kid’s on the football team, and they aren’t treated like idols, so the kids are very grounded and border on dorky. The la crosse team on the other hand is given more attention by the student body and administration, so they can have more issues with entitlements at times.

    That being said, I’ve made BOTH my high school sons watch this video, and read the NYT piece today. They both found the video gross, but it was a good moment for us to expound a bit. Maybe they’ll never be faced with something so grave, but more than anything, I wanted to impress upon them that at some point in their lives, they will have to be the voice of reason and dissent, even if it feels like an impossible thing to do. If one person, just one person had just anonymously called the police that night, who knows how much pain and suffering that poor girl would have been spared. And yet everyone was too scared to speak up, or in the case of Michael Nodianos, some people were just too celebratory about a rape in progress to do the right thing.

    This poor girl, no one was willing to do right by her, from the rape all the way to her pursuit of justice.

  214. 214
    jbrock

    michaellatiolais beat me to it. Steubenville is also home to one of the most in-your-face “orthodox” Roman Catholic universities in the US. In this case, “orthodox” can be understood as shorthand for “ultramontane with a twist of holy roller”. As far as I can tell, nobody from the Franciscan University of Steubenville was even peripherally involved in this crime, but the institution’s influence in the town says a great deal about the general mentality there. That mentality enabled this crime and will do its damnedest to make sure that gang rape by a football team goes unpunished yet again. Except for punishing the victim, of course. Because Eve.

    So yeah, fuck Steubenville, Ohio. Short of refusing to send kids (whom I don’t have) to their university (which I couldn’t afford anyway), there’s not much I can do to implement that sentiment directly, but at least I can try to help make “football rape” the quasi-phrase most associated with it on Google.

  215. 215
    WharGarbl

    @jbrock
    #213

    but at least I can try to help make “football rape” the quasi-phrase most associated with it on Google.

    Just searched it, already is.

  216. 216
    Pteryxx

    Background info roundup:

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/01/03/steubenville_ohio_rape_anonymous_gets_involved_and_the_case_gets_even_more.html

    A bit about Alexandria Goddard of Prinnified blog:

    Of particular outrage to Goddard is the fact that many other players besides Mays and Richmond appeared to have participated in the alleged assault to some extent, taking pictures and videos, but aren’t facing any legal repercussions. Early to cover the case, Goddard has backed this claim up by posting screenshots of now-deleted photos and videos of the night. She was sued for defamation by student Cody Saltsman, who left an ugly online history celebrating the alleged assault, including a photo on Instagram of the alleged victim being tossed about by her alleged assailants. The case was dismissed with prejudice in late December, and Saltsman publicly apologized to the victim and her family for his online actions.

    Last Saturday there was an Occupy Steubenville protest to support the victim and call for action. Another rally is scheduled for tomorrow.

    http://deadspin.com/5972005/occupy-steubenville-gathers-to-support-rape-victim-call-for-coachs-job

    http://prinniefied.com/wp/occupysteubenville-live-stream-links/#comment-6362

  217. 217
    David Marjanović

    Yeah. I kinda feel shitty that I didn’t have the guts to decide that no, this is not appropriate way back then. Yet another of my failings.

    Don’t feel bad for not being an outright hero.

    TV Tropes: not a reliable source for discussing psychology.

    Well, point taken.

    Wow. Wow. Wow.

    http://localleaks.blogs.ru/

    …I haven’t clicked on any of the links there, so I don’t know how many of the accusations (…so many accusations…) have any base, and I don’t have sound on this computer; but the pictures in the video… o horror. Watch them.

    “Lowest on the adolescent food chain”…. right. Because there were no nerdy, socially awkward, and/or special-education girls in your high school.

    To be fair, boys and girls were probably in separate pecking orders; the mistake here is to call only one of them “adolescent” and ignore the existence of the other.

    To the best of my knowledge, the introverted girls at my middle/high school weren’t bullied. It’s considered normal for a girl to shut up, not worthy of punishment.

    Oh, and the guy in the video, Michael Nodianos, is a freshman here at Ohio State University on a scholarship. I assume a baseball scholarship; the articles don’t say, except that he was a baseball player at Steubenville High. Is it petty of me to wish that he loses the scholarship over this?

    No, why?

    But then, I’m already against sports scholarships. Tertiary education should be free in the first place.

    How is not telling them [assuming that is the case] what “risk” or “trouble” it would cause the rapists anywhere approaching the most disgraceful aspect of this?

    The charitable assumption is that Raging Bee tried to address the rapists in “a language they understand”: they evidently don’t care about anything approaching the most disgraceful aspect, so Raging Bee gave up on that and tried to appeal to their self-interest.

    Doing so, however, entailed downplaying the disgraceful aspects. It wasn’t worth the try.

    Moving beyond the whole question of whether the gender-specific slur was or was not appropriate here, the fact that football players can get laid is irrelevant. They wanted to hurt a woman; they wanted to enjoy hurting a woman. They hurt her because she was vulnerable. Whether she had been drugged against her will or whether she made a bad decision about drinking is irrelevant. No one, male or female, could live a life never doing anything that might somehow make them vulnerable to someone who feels they are entitled to do that to another human being.

    Seconded.

    I think it’s also a form of power. Bedding a willing partner? That’s easy. Raping a woman? Damn, you’re one tough man!

    I fear that’s exactly what’s going on in their heads.

    Coaches are teachers. John Wooden, of UCLA basketball, said when he retired that it was “the last game I ever TAUGHT.” He didn’t just build a winning program, he tried to teach his players about character and about life.

    Isn’t that actually a fucked-up attitude? Does every sports coach believe he’s a martial-arts philosopher?

    Basketball isn’t a philosophy. It’s not a way of life. It’s a game.

    Steubenville is also home to one of the most in-your-face “orthodox” Roman Catholic universities in the US. In this case, “orthodox” can be understood as shorthand for “ultramontane with a twist of holy roller”.

    LOL!

  218. 218
    ChristineRose

    Anonymous is now quoting unnamed persons who claim to have been privy to the events as saying she was given a drink laced with a “date rape drug” early in the evening. They also claim the drug was provided by a local dealer/footfall fan, who is named.

  219. 219
    Eamon Knight

    David @126: To the best of my knowledge, the introverted girls at my middle/high school weren’t bullied. It’s considered normal for a girl to shut up, not worthy of punishment.

    Ask the introverted nerd who is now my wife about that. At that age, there is a boys’ hierarchy and a girls’ hierarchy, and though the methods are different (the boys tend to physical bullying, the girls to verbal, though crossover is by no means rare) they are equally cruel to the omegas. (If I’m lucky that link will post better than Preview is showing it).

  220. 220
    nimuae

    I want to talk about the young lady who was victimized. I sincerely hope that her parents have set up some services for her to get through this troubled time; it doesn’t seem the community is inclined to step up. She will* feel afraid . She will need help to deal with the sad fact that there are people out there that are so depraved that they will do horrible, terrible things. She will need help to recover her self esteem and self worth. She will need a safety network of people she can count on. She will need extra special love and someone to listen to her story as many times as she needs to tell it. She will need compassion – not pity. She will need special attention to deal constructively with suicidal thoughts.

    She will need so many things… the others will go on and may have vague memories of what happened. It might haunt some of the others.

    Once thing is certain, it will haunt her for a long, long time if not for the rest of her life.

    Maybe we should talk a little about those things…

    *note that I am consciously using will here as opposed to might. This choice is based on my experience and, if it bothers you in a not scientific/clinical enough way, then feel free to substitute any other word you desire.

  221. 221
    jeffsutter

    http://localleaks.blogs.ru/ This site has a lot of information about the people involved in this. I don’t know how accurate the information is, but it has me in a rage. I’ve not been so worked up about something in such a long time.

    These assholes were known as The Rape Crew. This girl isn’t their first victim. I know when stories like this happen, a lot of misinformation gets out there (especially when teenagers are concerned. Wild Rumors quickly become fact). Still, given what we know is true from video evidence, this is already beyond sickening.

  222. 222
    osmosis

    I’m experiencing a major cog-dis with this. If these boys had even the slightest comprehension of what they were doing/had done, would they brag about it in public? They obviously don’t get it. And I’m at a loss as to how to handle them.

  223. 223
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Don’t feel bad for not being an outright hero.

    Hell, I’d settle for feeling human.

    But I understand where you are coming from.

  224. 224
    osmosis

    Isn’t that actually a fucked-up attitude? Does every sports coach believe he’s a martial-arts philosopher?

    I’m not sure it’s the coaches pushing that particular agenda. While I don’t agree with it, there seems to be an attitude in my society that those who excel at sports are supposed to display a certain moral character. Especially those who want product endorsement contracts.
    Personally, I don’t expect athletes to be above it all when it comes to their private activities. It’s too bad there are so many cases, however, where expecting them to be merely HUMAN seems foolish.

  225. 225
    Inaji

    Osmosis:

    If these boys had even the slightest comprehension of what they were doing/had done, would they brag about it in public? They obviously don’t get it

    They obviously do get it. It’s a trophy moment – “I am man, look at me rape! I am entitled! I have power!” It’s unpleasant as all hells, but it does no good to pretend they are absolutely clueless. They aren’t.

  226. 226
    erikthebassist

    I find the implication that these boys are victims to be a complete pile of bullshit. No one failed these kids, they failed themselves. They don’t get a pass because their parents and the people in their town were assholes. Rape culture isn’t an excuse or a better place to put the blame. It’s a problem that needs fixing, but don’t imply that putrid behavior like this is understandable because of their upbringing.

    There were people during the age of slavery that objected, knew it was wrong, and fought and died to end it. There were white people who fought alongside blacks during the civil rights movement because they knew right from wrong. There were German citizens that smuggled Jews out of the country because they knew what was right.

    There are white men today who fight for the rights of women and minorities because they can recognize right from wrong. These kids don’t deserve an ounce of fucking sympathy because of their culture or upbringing. Decent people rise above that. Fuck these excuses.
    Yes I’m talking to you Raging Bee. Fuck you and your attempt to let these little scumbags off the hook in anyway shape or form.

    when a woman I thought would be an easy lay passed out on me in mid-foreplay, I had no problem stopping what I was trying to do, even though I was extremely worked up and almost as drunk as she was.

    Had she not passed out and you got your easy lay, you would have been guilty of rape anyway as she was quite obviously past the point of being able to give consent. Oh, and this comment makes me sick, you make me sick.

  227. 227
    erikthebassist

    And before any one objects and says I’m not going with the most charitable possible interpretation of raging bee’s comments, fuck you too. There is no charitable way to interpret what I just block quoted.

  228. 228
    Inaji

    Erik, you might wish to read the rest of the responses Raging Bee received. You won’t find any objections.

  229. 229
    erikthebassist

    I did read them Caine, many seemed rather benign given what xe said.

  230. 230
    Rachel Kiernan

    Yes, there is a Culture of Rape in this country. It’s not just “those people, over there” who look for excuses to rape, even if that’s what usually makes the news over here.

    I’d encourage anyone reading this to take a little test: Ask virtually anyone you know how they would lower the rate of crime. Chances are you’ll hear something about needing to hire more police or other security, maybe have more security cameras, longer jail sentences (especially for violent offenders) and so forth. Then ask the same people how they would lower the rate of rape: If your respondents are similar to mine, the tone will suddenly become about women needing to not go out at certain times, or dress a certain way, or drink, or be flirtatious…. This is akin to saying they somehow deserve to be punished for being independent and/or sexual creatures. We might as well just say that a woman should be in the home, afraid – and dependent on the men in her life to protect and support her.

    We have a Rape Culture when we determine what makes a “crime” by the actions of a criminal yet what makes a “rape” (or any other hate crime) is entirely about the actions and dress of the victim. Women (and minorities, including those in the LGBT community,) are routinely blamed for being the victims of hate crimes simply because they were not in their “proper place” or behaving in a certain way. This violence is meant to serve as a warning to anyone else who might not know his/her “place” in society – and those who commit the crimes are often rewarded or admired. How many other hate crimes can we name where the victim was blamed for somehow causing the attack? Such is also the nature of the Rape Culture.

    We just had a judge blame a woman for being raped because her body didn’t “shut down” and that she didn’t “put up a fight” even though she was beaten and threatened with mutilation if she didn’t have sex.
    http://act.watchdog.net/petitions/2122?r=622181.usGn28

    We’ve had “Slut Walks” specifically because there is a mentality that “clothing equals consent” and that women are entirely to blame for a man’s violent actions. I would add into this equation a culture in sports that men are Alphas and women are meant to cheer them on, in their place on the sidelines. The culture of “winning at all costs” gave us Jerry Sandusky and the entire Penn State scandal – with the complacency of other coaches who were more concerned about their wining record than protecting little children from a rapist.

    Anyway, sorry for the rant. Thank you for having this blog and covering this topic.

  231. 231
    Inaji

    Erik:

    I did read them Caine, many seemed rather benign given what xe said.

    Oh, I don’t know. I think my “you’re a sexist asshole and part of the problem” pretty much covered it, but it never hurts to toss another eye-opening rant in there. I know from previous situations that Raging Bee won’t be changing their mind and will stubbornly hold onto a completely wrong point of view.

  232. 232
    erikthebassist

    That’s why I said “many” Caine, some where overly charitable. You, as always, were on point and thank you for that. I just felt it necessary to point out that rancid tick admitted to attempted rape, and almost breaks his own spine attmetping to pat himself on the back for stopping his crime in progess when his victim became completely unconscious.

    What a Nice Guy TM.

  233. 233
    mastigoteuthidae

    Having lived in a frat house as an independent for one year in the 70s, I observed that it was typical for weekend drinking parties to, among other rituals, involve trying to get young inexperienced girls inebriated and tricking them into having sex. This was not typically a problem as the ones that only wanted free drinks would leave when they had their fill or be protected by the guys that wanted to be their boyfriends. The willing type of girl would sneak out early in the morning with a smile. However, there were some individuals that did not care if at some point the girls were even conscious anymore and not every fraternity has young men possessing a conscious in the early hours available. One friend guiltily admitted that he had once forced a drunken, non-consenting, but unable to fight him off, into sex. In that sort of atmosphere it was thought of as normal.

    Latter after transferring to HapyValey I heard allegations about some football players having been accused of drugging and raping freshman girls at an all football player fraternity on campus. The story was that they would grind up Quaaludes and add the powder to drinks and take the girls upstairs when they passed out and rape them. The girls would be unable to remember what happened and so the administration conveniently chose to not investigate the allegations further. The reason I had to give credence to the story was my own time in a frat house and that the story came from the guy that sold them the drugs and was likely to be spending years in prison if the cases went to court. This resonates with the recent events leading the the fall of Papa Paterno, where football was elevated above right and wrong. This is nothing new.

  234. 234
    Inaji

    This is nothing new.

    No, it isn’t, and it godsdamn well should not still be happening. So, what’s your fucking point? Just had to relate that “hey, smart girls who want to get drunk should have their owner, oops, protective boyfriend along!” or what?

  235. 235
    chigau (違う)

    This was not brought up because it’s ‘new’.
    It exists now.
    Any suggestions?

  236. 236
    chigau (違う)

    And mastigoteuthidae, as for

    The willing type of girl would sneak out early in the morning with a smile.

    If you were physically close to me, I would vomit on your shoes.

  237. 237
    athyco

    Caine,

    No, it isn’t, and it godsdamn well should not still be happening. So, what’s your fucking point? Just had to relate that “hey, smart girls who want to get drunk should have their owner, oops, protective boyfriend along!” or what?

    His point, I believe, is that HE knows better than women what it’s all about. After all…

    The reason I had to give credence to the story was my own time in a frat house and that the story came from the guy that sold them the drugs and was likely to be spending years in prison if the cases went to court.

    How many credences would have to be given if he didn’t have first-hand man knowledge and a story from the guy that sold them the drugs?

  238. 238
    Inaji

    Chigau:

    If you were physically close to me, I would vomit on your shoes.

    I’d do worse than that. And people wonder why this shit still happens.

  239. 239
    Inaji

    Athyco:

    How many credences would have to be given if he didn’t have first-hand man knowledge and a story from the guy that sold them the drugs?

    Oh, any that came from an actual person, a man, natch.

    :eyeroll:

  240. 240
    rvlh

    “You’re young, you’re strong and healthy, you’re good-looking, and your town reveres you as demigods, so you should be able to get laid without having to settle for a drunk bimbo that you share with other guys”? Didn’t any of them say “Look, guys, if you can’t get a girl with all the advantages you have, you may have a problem, and taking advantage of someone who’s drugged isn’t the answer”?

    What the everloving fuck? Translation: “You don’t need to settle for trash or share it with anyone else – you are a good looking, sports playing, young, healthy male and therefore entitled to your very own unsullied cunt! You could command any of the upstanding, morally pure, non-drunk bimbos in town to spread for you, don’t waste your time with this risky tramp. You have all these *advantages* and should be able to GET a girl – if you can’t GET a girl you may have a problem!”

    Are you serious? Newsflash: a woman is not a possession to be acquired like a fancy new toy and used as desired. Women at parties who are drunk are not by definition “drunk bimbos” – although I guess since she was having “sex”, she must have been a bimbo. Honestly, I can’t even properly articulate my rage at your stupefying comment. It essentially boils down to, “In the interest of avoiding a risky rape-type situation, couldn’t someone have warned these boys that they could totally do better than that nasty whore??” Even if your point is to find some way, any way, of preventing such a heinous crime – SAYING SHIT LIKE THAT IS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ATTITUDES THAT FUEL SUCH BEHAVIOUR. And your touching story about going in for the “easy lay” (nice term by the way, your respect for women shines through) – well, congratulations for tearing your poor heartbroken boner away from a rape once the woman was fully unconscious. There must be a medal for things like that.

    Caine and Erik, thank you.

    mastigoteuthidae: “willing type of girl”? Barf. Weekend drinking parties that involved getting inexperienced girls drunk to trick them into fucking were typical? And your “friend” told you that he forced a non-consenting woman into sex..? How about you start describing women as “women” and your friends as “rapists”. And here we sit wondering how nobody said anything while this woman was being paraded around like a piece of meat. I honestly can’t imagine.

  241. 241
    Inaji

    rvlh:

    Weekend drinking parties that involved getting inexperienced girls drunk to trick them into fucking were typical?

    Unfortunately, that part is true. It was true in the ’70s and it’s true today. It’s not going to be different, either, until men start saying “no, this shit is wrong”, and refuse to participate along with shaming those that do such things. As we can see from this particular case and way too many others, we have a long fucking way to go on that front.

    Like many other people, I’m sick and fucking tired of the onus always being on the woman. I want to see men standing up and taking fucking responsibility. I want to see men acting as decent human beings.

  242. 242
    rvlh

    “Unfortunately, that part is true.”

    Oh, I don’t doubt that. I’m aware that it’s deeply ingrained in our culture to ply a woman with alcohol to loosen her up and try to coerce sex from her like she’s some kind of dick receptacle that you just need to figure out the combination for. It plays out in all manner of popular culture, even when a man supposedly is “in love” with a woman and ostensibly wants a relationship with her.

    My point was how mastigoteuthidae just threw it in there about how he personally lived in a place where this was happening – weekly – along with mention of “willing type of girls” leaving with smiles and talk of his “friend” committing a ‘forcible rape’, or, you know, ‘rape-rape’. I’m sorry if my point isn’t terribly clear but the whole comment infuriates me and I’m sort of at a loss. It’s mostly a keyboard version of *swear, sputter* at this point.

  243. 243
    Inaji

    rvlh:

    My point was how mastigoteuthidae just threw it in there about how he personally lived in a place where this was happening – weekly – along with mention of “willing type of girls” leaving with smiles and talk of his “friend” committing a ‘forcible rape’, or, you know, ‘rape-rape’. I’m sorry if my point isn’t terribly clear but the whole comment infuriates me and I’m sort of at a loss. It’s mostly a keyboard version of *swear, sputter* at this point.

    I got your point – it’s why I went all ranty about men stepping up to the damn plate already. It fucking infuriates me too, often to the same point, where I sit at my keyboard yelling, because it would be easier if I could just yell at the idiot rather than have to gather my thoughts enough to type out a response.

  244. 244
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    when a woman I thought would be an easy lay passed out on me in mid-foreplay, I had no problem stopping what I was trying to do, even though I was extremely worked up and almost as drunk as she was.

    First, “an easy lay”? Really? Ugh.

    This whole phenomenon of people sharing drunken sex and almost sex stories on rape threads is so fucking creepy.

    There’s the ones defending the practice with “But she wanted it too!”.

    And there’s the ones that brag about their “restraint” looking for a cookie.

    So either way, the dudes wins. Either they get sex and pats on the back from buds or they get cookies and coos of approval for being such a Nice Guy.

    Well, almost everywhere anyways and Pharyngula is definitely an exception.

    I mean really, restraint? It’s really fucking creepy talking about how you didn’t rape someone even though you totally wanted too and could’ve gotten away with it.

    “Look, I could’ve been like that rapist but I’m not! Well, except I wanted to do it. Now, praise and accept me as better than them.”

    The come back to backlash against such comments are usually along the lines of, “Well, I’m sure she was glad I stopped.”

    The problem with this is that isn’t not right. The power is suppose to be with the person who says no. The passed out person isn’t some gift you graciously choose to leave untouched.

    Their body, their right, their choice and bragging about not raping someone because you are such a Nice Guy takes away the control, the power over themselves into your hands.

    Fuck thanking men for not raping me. That’s like saying, thank you for not running me over with your car. There’s a social contract so the fucking baseline assumption that you aren’t going to so why give you a cookie for it?

    There’s punishment if you DO, but that doesn’t mean you get extra special thanks for not doing it.

    Yes, rapists are humans and not monsters. But that doesn’t mean people should talking about not giving into raping someone on a fucking rape thread. This isn’t a support group for rapists, attempted rapist, almost rapists or wanna be rapists – go find that in practically every other place.

  245. 245
    Inaji

    JAL:

    Fuck thanking men for not raping me.

    Amen.

  246. 246
    osmosis

    They obviously do get it. It’s a trophy moment – “I am man, look at me rape! I am entitled! I have power!” It’s unpleasant as all hells, but it does no good to pretend they are absolutely clueless. They aren’t.

    There’s something that guy doesn’t understand about not confessing to heinous crimes on video. S’all I’m saying.

  247. 247
    speed0spank

    I know from experience that these types of things are swept under the rug even when there is no football or anything of note keeping people from talking, at least in my personal experience. Many times people just don’t fucking view obvious rape as what it is and they stay silent.
    Really, if not for the tweets and the pictures, this might very well have ended up being totally blamed on this girl. “Oh, don’t you say anything about it, you embarrassed yourself enough already.”

    The whole thing makes me fucking sick. Knowing how frequently this happens and goes unnoticed makes me so angry. Knowing that this happens and more people will say shit about the “drunk sloppy girl” rather than the piece of garbage taking advantage of said girl …how is it that anyone can act like this is some post-sexism utopian society and we all need to shake hands and get along for the sake of UFOs and the like? This shit is a million times more important to me.

  248. 248
    fabianocaccin

    Carlie @ #86:

    The more things change…

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3078/3078-h/3078-h.htm#link2H_4_0005

  249. 249
    mastigoteuthidae

    It amazes me how people will insist that one has stated something that is nowhere to be found in the actual writing. Reporting on bad behavior is not the same as condoning it.

    Caine, Fleur du mal: You contradict yourself, but rape assisted by alcohol/drugs has been going on for centuries. My point was that it gets covered up by those in authority. College administrations do not want potential new student parents hearing about rape problems on campus. Athletic teams do not want to lose valuable players during a winning season. A liberated woman is free to get drunk and pass out in a frat house alone but I do not recommend it. Would not a freshman college girl get that point from what I wrote?

    Chigau: Some young women enjoy and seek out sex and it is not for me to judge them. I would see them leave in the morning, having been locked out of the woman’s dorms for the night, and we would smile at each other and sometimes say hello. So?

    Athyco: You can’t just pull things out of your ass, I think you confuse probability with culpability. People get caught up fighting what they want one to have said, not what one did say.

    Rvlh: There is such a thing as consensual sex and it requires being willing. And yes at college campuses across the country every weekend this goes on and has been so for decades. You are imagining that I said or implied things that I did not. Those things happened and were allowed to happen by the authorities that would rather pretend they didn’t, There is some progress in reducing this sort of thing as in India recently and if people make enough noise where it will be heard maybe it will be stopped in Ohio also. Stop fighting ghosts.

  250. 250
    Feline

    mastigoteuthidae @247

    people will insist that one has stated something that is nowhere to be found in the actual writing

    Oh, I suppose

    Caine, Fleur du mal: You contradict yourself, but rape assisted by alcohol/drugs has been going on for centuries.

    You contradict yourself

    (Citation?
    …)
    that you would not stoop, but you can’t help yourself, can you?

  251. 251
    rvlh

    Drunk =/= consent. Do you advise young men to not get drunk and pass out in frat houses? Why do you suppose that women are ‘putting themselves in danger’ by doing so? Do you think that attitudes like the one you’re conveying might be a reason why a woman risks getting raped or worse by being “liberated” and a man doesn’t? I asked you to question why you think that because a woman smiled at you the morning after something like that indicated she was a “willing type” and why you refer to a fucking rapist as “friend”. Just curious. Maybe you should work on losing the attitude that having an unguarded vagina in public *should* be a cause for concern – because that is really not compatible with the term “liberated women”. And I’m not fighting “ghosts”, obviously – please see the topic of the article we’re discussing.

  252. 252
    Pteryxx

    For y’all’s information, there’s a bit of video up from the rally today here:

    http://prinniefied.com/wp/steubenville-facts/

    From about 12 minutes to 15 and some, Sheriff Abdalla spoke to the crowd. News report says about 1000 protesters.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/05/steubenville-rape-protests_n_2416820.html

  253. 253
    Inaji

    Oh look who is back, vomiting more shit all over the floor – stop that right fucking now. It’s disgusting.

    And I did not contradict myself at all, you flaming fuckwit. You are a sexist asshole who is a major part of the problem and you have been a major part of the problem since at least the ’70s. I’ve been part of the solution since the ’70s. You’re nothing except a vomitor of sexist shit.

  254. 254
    chigau (違う)

    But Caine, mastigoteuthidae has all the facts because he lived in a frat house for one year in the 70s.

  255. 255
    Inaji

    Chigau:

    But Caine, mastigoteuthidae has all the facts because he lived in a frat house for one year in the 70s.

    Oh, right. I forgot he’s the only person ever to have lived in the ’70s and the only person ever to have lived in a frat house and the only person ever to be qualified to talk about those drunk chicks. And, he’s male, so he’s the only human being around.

    <spits>

  256. 256
    athyco

    mastigoteuthidae, I said “I believe” I had the answer. I quoted you. I then asked a question. Explain how I pulled your “culpability” out of my ass. For what did I say you were blameworthy, and how am I wrong?

    “The reason I had to give credence to the story was….” If I told you that I was raped in my living room, you wouldn’t have to give credence because you’ve never been in my living room, none of your friends guiltily confessed, or no one told you a related story about how much my rapist had to drink that night? If you’d only heard about the trial of drug-raped coeds at Happy Valley without your experience and a story, would you have said, “Why, that scenario is astoundingly unlikely!”?

    Hey, tell me that you reported at the time. Tell me that you signed the affidavit about your friend confessing to rape since it wasn’t hearsay as it was a statement against penal interests. Tell me that you warned coeds after your first exposure to this behavior. Tell me that you were mind-reading the coeds who came out in the morning, because a smile can’t cover up shame when after she’d sobered up, she realized she had nowhere to go because her dorm was locked. Tell me that you reported to the higher-ups in the fraternity that at least one of the brothers was a rapist. If the higher-up was the rapist, tell me that you reported to the Greek council on campus.

    There is some progress in reducing this sort of thing as in India recently and if people make enough noise where it will be heard maybe it will be stopped in Ohio also.

    You know, if you’d said something like this in your original comment with the additional info that you were going to speak out where people hold the idea that it’s not that bad (and that’s not here), that might have made a difference. Go on. Read your comment–231. The only sentence with a present tense main verb is the last one: “This is nothing new.” And you tell rvlh to stop fighting ghosts? Unless you did the reporting at the time, stop patting yourself on the back for only being a white knight™ for ghosts.

  257. 257
    Inaji

    There is some progress in reducing this sort of thing as in India recently

    Gee, really? You mean like the woman who was recently gang raped with a metal rod and died as a result?

  258. 258
    athyco

    And mastigoteuthidae, go read Avicenna. The “Age of Kali” post. He’s second in the sidebar at A Million Gods.

  259. 259
    Pteryxx

    go read Avicenna. The “Age of Kali” post.

    O_o

    Oh and guess what? Remember the Delhi Rape? Let’s go back to the latest developments…

    The young man (her boyfriend) has regained consciousness. And what he says was rather damning.

    I watched the interview (can’t find it online) so I shall paraphrase the salient points

    1. The police showed up 45 minutes after the incident.

    2. Until that point both of them were lying there unable to move.

    3. The police then argued about which jurisdiction the case fell under.

    4. Nobody… and this is what made me mad. NOBODY CALLED AN AMBULANCE!

    5. The police in a “Wiggumesque maneuver” sat watching them (bear in mind a man with head injuries and woman suffering that level of injury) and only after repeated requests got him a sheet to cover his friend.

    …Lots more, and worse.

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/amilliongods/2013/01/06/age-of-kali-rape-and-change/

  260. 260
    Inaji

    …Lots more, and worse.

    But Pteryxx, things are getting better! So says mastigoteuthidae.

    *eyeroll*

  261. 261
    rvlh

    “A liberated woman is free to get drunk and pass out in a frat house alone but I do not recommend it. Would not a freshman college girl get that point from what I wrote?”

    You know, there’s the crux of it right there. If you, and I would say *most*, if not all other men just accept it as an incontrovertible fact that women are going to be lured to a party (where they will be going to have fun, drink, and hang out) to “trick them” or drug them, or FORCE them into sex… And you seriously come away with the idea that, hey, women are liberated and can try to party and have fun with their schoolmates like men but they shouldn’t. YOU’RE THE PROBLEM.

    If men KNOW that women are specifically lured to places to have fun and that the end goal is to coercively or forcibly fuck them… I’d say the problem is with men, not women taking the bait and going out to have a good time. Fuck you. If all your flatmates and “friends” are bona fide repeat rapists, what the fuck were YOU doing???

    That’s where the concept of “oooh this isn’t a rape culture, society HATES rapists!” comes from. Society hates boogeymen that hide in bushes and steal virginal white girls on their way home from church. Society fucking LOVES rapists. As evidenced by your own fucking story. Again – “willing type” vs. “friend”. Again, fuck you.

    How about this friendly advice? A liberated man is able to get drunk at a frat house but I wouldn’t recommend it because drunk sex is not consensual sex and he’s liable to end up raping someone.

  262. 262
    David Marjanović

    the methods are different (the boys tend to physical bullying, the girls to verbal)

    Is that still true? I was bullied practically only verbally, and mostly by boys except during one year.

    They obviously do get it. It’s a trophy moment – “I am man, look at me rape! I am entitled! I have power!” It’s unpleasant as all hells, but it does no good to pretend they are absolutely clueless. They aren’t.

    Seconded. “Look at me! I can do anything and get away with it! And you can’t do anything about it! It’s good to be king!”

    Fuck thanking men for not raping me. That’s like saying, thank you for not running me over with your car. There’s a social contract so the fucking baseline assumption that you aren’t going to so why give you a cookie for it?

    Well said!

    There’s something that guy doesn’t understand about not confessing to heinous crimes on video. S’all I’m saying.

    “Look at me! I can get away with anything! And you can’t do anything about it!” Well, sometimes they’re wrong, and somebody can do something about it…

    My point was that it gets covered up by those in authority. College administrations do not want potential new student parents hearing about rape problems on campus.

    Congratulations! You’ve discovered one reason why having students or their parents pay for their education is flat-out evil.

    Athletic teams do not want to lose valuable players during a winning season.

    Then make sure everybody knows the “valuable players” are in fact rapists. Turn public opinion around, so the team comes to see losing the rapist as (at minimum) the lesser evil.

    A liberated woman is free to get drunk and pass out in a frat house alone but I do not recommend it. Would not a freshman college girl get that point from what I wrote?

    …Exactly. She’d get the point that if she’s raped, she will be blamed for it.

    How can you not see what’s wrong with this?

  263. 263
    athyco

    Would not a freshman college girl get that point from what I wrote?

    I hadn’t realized until now another predatory point of this question. How many freshman college girls are 21, mastigoteuthidae? And you talked about Happy Valley, so you were in Pennsylvania in the 1970s when about half the states lowered their drinking age from 21 until the federal law took away their highway funding in 1984. Pennsylvania was never one of them. Pennsylvania has never had family or location exceptions for underage drinking, either.

  264. 264
    mastigoteuthidae

    What you incredibly irrational people fail to grasp is that I was not involved in any of the events I related. Each of you is reading into it things that I did not say and did not do. You are arguing with ghosts, the person you want so hard to pretend that I am instead of who I am. You are way beyond reason at this point. Do you stand on street corners and yell at passing cars too? Wipe the froth from your mouths.

    Was I expected to jump into a time machine to stop what happened years before I heard about it? When I lived at a frat house, but not as a member, was I supposed to stand outside the doorway Friday nigh telling underage girls to turn back and embrace temperance and chastity? I would have had to find another place to room first and all the women on campus would have considered me a nutter. Because I saw or heard of a thing happening, why do you think I was part of it? No one takes a irrational rant seriously so you might just as well yell at passing cars. Continue your circlejerk, I am gone.

  265. 265
    Ingdigo Jump

    Someone send an alert that we got a troll in really bad taste here

  266. 266
    athyco

    What you incredibly irrational people fail to grasp is that I was not involved in any of the events I related.

    So none of it was your story to tell, none of its pain or insight yours to share, none of its possible growth and learning yours to gain.

    This is nothing new.

    Can you go away now?

  267. 267
    LykeX

    Each of you is reading into it things that I did not say and did not do. You are arguing with ghosts…

    So you’re a ghost? Or, to put it more directly, do you really want us to take what you say literally? Are you sure that’s what you want?
    Normal human communication involves a certain amount of interpretation. If you don’t like that, you have to make it explicit.

  268. 268
    LykeX

    Further clarification: We can’t read your mind. We can only go by what you actually type. If you don’t write it, we don’t know it. So, you have to explicitly explain what you mean.

  269. 269
    rvlh

    “When I lived at a frat house, but not as a member, was I supposed to stand outside the doorway Friday nigh telling underage girls to turn back and embrace temperance and chastity?”

    LOL!! Wow, you’re dense. No, not to tell the women to turn back. NO. To **tell the people you lived with to stop raping women**. To suggest to your FRIEND that he was a rapist, maybe even call the fucking police about that one? No, I wouldn’t AT ALL suggest that you tell women to embrace chastity, you absolute fucking douchebag. It’s hilarious and telling that your thought process leads you there. The point, you missed it.

  270. 270
    mildlymagnificent

    telling underage girls to turn back and embrace temperance and chastity

    I read a lot of posts between your #231,#247 and #262, so I presume you did too.

    How. On. Earth. could you possibly have got the idea that the best solution to the issues you raise is to tell young women to guard themselves, preferably by running away, hiding at home and avoiding social occasions without chaperones/bodyguards.

    The problem is now as it always has been – with the men and their behaviour. Behaviour in performing, encouraging, permitting and. in. turning. a. blind. eye. to offensive or downright criminal behaviour.

  271. 271
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    I mean really how else are we suppose to react to this:

    One friend guiltily admitted that he had once forced a drunken, non-consenting, but unable to fight him off, into sex. In that sort of atmosphere it was thought of as normal.

    Your friend?!? Some friend. You don’t even acknowledge the victim but “drunken, non-consenting but unable to fight him off into sex”. Where’s the person in that?!! Why treat her(? assuming) like nothing?

    You did fucking nothing then and now you just bring it up to “oh, it’s nothing new”. SO WHAT?

    Did you think we didn’t know that? Did you think we’d care less if it wasn’t new? WTF is the point of your story about your frat buddies raping girls. Oh, poor you had to witness it. Oh, poor you couldn’t move. BOO FUCKING WOO. You didn’t even talk about feeling guilty about not being able to do anything to stop it. You instead wrote shit like this diminishing and dismissing what happened:

    This was not typically a problem

    not every fraternity has young men possessing a conscious in the early hours available.

    Every one of them should have known about consent. Every one of them should have had a conscious.
    Oh, wait. They all did, they were just raised in rape culture so they were taught it’s all good. That’s the fucking problem. You approach this so fucking nonchalantly like it doesn’t bother you, like it’s so normal that’s there is no point in talking about it. Like it’s okay. Yes, this unfortunately is normal but it shouldn’t be.

    Yet you express NOTHING. You relate a terrible story about a rape house you lived it like it was taking a walk in the park.

    No one takes a irrational rant seriously so you might just as well yell at passing cars.

    So you are as dense as a car – we got that already from your very first post.

    So you find ranting at rapists and rape culture irrational, we already knew that too. Funny how that’s so easy for people to say when they aren’t victims of this shit.

    So it’s really no surprise that you can’t grasp the concept of not putting the onus on women* to be hyper vigilant but for men not to be rapist. And to not support these rapists through rape culture.

    and all the women on campus would have considered me a nutter.

    Yeah. Because that’s whats important – women liking you and listening to you to protect themselves.

    *eyeroll*

    You really don’t get it. Typical.


    *I’m just using women since that’s the example used – obviously there are male victims and women rapists, just not what I’m talking about here.

  272. 272
    alwayscurious

    A liberated man is able to get drunk at a frat house but I wouldn’t recommend it because drunk sex is not consensual sex and he’s liable to end up raping someone.

    I gotta remember this one!

    mastigoteuthidae, relating the story as you did makes it sound as if you required your experiences at the frat house to shape you in the person who would later believe the Happy Valley events to be plausible. If so, that would make you more ignorant than the victims of the frat house at which you lived. So this isn’t tilting at ghosts, it’s fighting ignorance. That such ignorance hides behind blaming others for the events that befall them is even more annoying.

  273. 273
    mastigoteuthidae

    It amazes me the low lever of reading comprehension of many here. I never advanced, condoned, participated in, or had first hand direct reportable knowledge of any rapes. Was I supposed to just accuse random men of raping unknown victims at unknown times at unknown places? Just exactly how fucking stupid are you people? The one friend that confided in me was not even sure if or not he had committed a rape having been drunk himself at the time and it had happened years before I heard about it. It did not happen at the frat house where I roomed or even at the same college, that is yet one more more example of asshats simply making stuff up to fight the ghost. Was I supposed to shoot him?

    I observed what happened and continues to happen at college fraternities today and decades into the past, free booze for women. If I had actionable information on any rape I would have done something about it but I could not change party campus culture. Each and every woman that went to those parties did so at will. I was not invited to the parties and was expected to leave the house or stay in my room. If they got into trouble somehow it was my fault, non sequitur much?

    Pleas each critic, make up signs and protest in front of the fraternity house of your choice and later wonder why the entire community considers you mentally unhinged. Each of you is reading into what I wrote things that simply are not there. Keep kicking your strawmen so you can pretend to be superior when you have only illustrated an inability to reason coherently. Arguing with ghosts isn’t going to improve the situation for anyone.

    You only have my word on this but I am about the least likely man to even try to steal a kiss without asking and getting permission first. So far may of you have only succeeded in making me your enemy by your unbased accusations and lies. If your rhetoric pushes such as I away it certainly is not going to have any weight with the guys I know that pick up a newspaper, pull out the sports section, and throw the rest away. You can take your place over in the far corner with what they think of as feminazis and man-haters. In other words the people that need to hear will listen to you at all.

  274. 274
    G Pierce (Was ~G~)

    mastigoteuthidae-

    http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/ (Scroll down to the Recommendation part to maybe get a partial clue.) You have expressed zero remorse for the fact that you were a passive participant in rape culture, as probably all of us have been to some degree in our lives but as we learn more, we learn to reject that participation. When I think about ways I’ve been passive, or if someone points it out, I don’t get defensive about it, it think about it with regret.

    At this point the reason you do not understand the responses you are getting it is because there is a lot you need to learn and think about to see why people are interpreting what you say negatively. Now is a time to read, digest and think before responding again if you want to understand the responses you are getting. I’d recommend the other links on that same blog above as well, too. If you just keep talking, it will be more obvious you don’t want to learn anything but instead just defend yourself to yourself.

  275. 275
    chigau (違う)

    It amazes me the low lever of reading comprehension of many here.

    *snicker*

  276. 276
    mastigoteuthidae

    ~G~:

    So exactly what should I have done differently? Collected firearms an gone on a killing rampage? Report my suspicions to the school administrations? They are the problem, most women will not report a date rape because they are discouraged from it by the authorities. Colleges and Universities have a long record of blaming the victim and sweeping these things under the rug. The institutions do not want to lose admissions by letting real rape statistics get out.

    Look at what is happening in Steubenville, half the town is accusing the girl. The many witnesses are being pressured to destroy evidence and withhold testimony. Sports officials consider winning more important that admitting that any of their players might have committed a crime. All I can do is tell it like it is.

  277. 277
    mastigoteuthidae

    chigau: It’s called a typo. A typo, if apparent, and does not change the meaning of an argument is not an indication of the validity of the argument. It shows you have nothing to contribute.

  278. 278
    G Pierce (Was ~G~)

    mastigoteuthidae-
    When your friend told you that long ago he was drunk and did or may have forced a drunk woman to have sex with him. How did you respond? You don’t even have to tell anyone here. Remember on your own and think about that, and think about the article in the link.

  279. 279
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Collected firearms an gone on a killing rampage? Report my suspicions to the school administrations?

    Putting these two things together like this makes it seem like you consider them similarly unreasonable.

  280. 280
    rvlh

    “All I can do is tell it like it is.”

    Oh, for sure. Rape is just a fact of life, dude. It’s just this thing, right, and you can’t stop it. All you can really do is advise those non-willing types to turn away from parties, and bars, and walking at night, or wearing slutty clothes and embrace a life of chastity. If only they’d listen. But they wouldn’t. They would just think you were a nutter and you’d be ostracized. Life is hard. Reporting things to the authorities would be useless because, hell, they’re part of the problem! The only other thing you could hope for is that feminazis and man-haters will start talking nicer to normal people. I mean, it seems like they might be on to something but they just don’t really know the way it IS. Maybe they should start consulting with people who lived in a frat house for a while in the 70s to get some real perspective.

    Dude, seriously.

  281. 281
    chigau (違う)

    mastigoteuthidae
    It shows that you do not proof-read your own comments.
    It indicates our ‘reading comprehension’ problems may originate somewhere other than ourselves.

  282. 282
    rvlh

    Oh, and I guess the other thing you could do is continue to think of your friend as friend after he told you he raped someone. And maybe console him. After all, he was drunk too! Oh the humanity. Life sure is hard for guys.

  283. 283
    mastigoteuthidae

    Chigau: This is not the New England Journal of Medicine you know. Your point still does nothing discredit me, it is simple snark. What I am seeing is a person that is trying to deal with personal sense of weakness by anonymously bullying others on the internet. F.U. and Plonk!

    Rvlh: I was not there and do not know what did or did not happen. The person in question is someone I have not seen or talked to in over 30 years. Again I see a bully trying to prop up their own self worth by deriding others. What was I supposed to do, turn him into the police with no time, location, or even the name of the victim? You are nuts. Was I supposed to beat him up? I didn’t say it was OK and he apparently was feeling guilty as it was. Exactly what was I supposed to have done? I know, you don’t really care, you just want a whipping boy to beat up on to make yourself feel better.

  284. 284
    chigau (違う)

    mastigoteuthidae

    What I am seeing is a person that is trying to deal with personal sense of weakness by anonymously bullying others on the internet.

    In the mirror?

  285. 285
    Inaji

    I have had enough of the rape apologetics. Alert sent.

  286. 286
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I’ll take that as a “Yes” to the implicit question.

  287. 287
    thepeachjuicer

    People are stupid. Getting all worked up over this shit like it really matters. This is dumb kids acting the part. The girl went to the party to get fucked up, and she did.. I’m not saying it was right, but shit.. People got murdered today. People died! She got fucked in the butt and all of a sudden the nation is in an outrage. Buisness as usual. Save your energy for shit that actually matters. Like sandy hook for instance. That was a tragedy. This is just another high school party gone too far and doesn’t deserve the attention it’s getting. If it wasn’t for anonymous none of you would even be on here preaching your shit high and mighty. Again, I’m not saying its right, but what the fuck. The media has blown this way out of proportion. You people are the logs of shit propelling the bonfire of shit that will burn until there’s nothing left worthwhile of intelligent discussion. Rape is wrong. Always and for ever. I think we should just let the father of the victim deal with his own and move on. This has come to a point where more people are attacking that fuck tard Michael dead girl than the boys that actually engaged in the act. It’s becoming a media thing. And as we all know, in the culture we live in, the media is god. The absolute. Rosanne will tell you that, along with nancy. I’m over this. I hope that girl may find some closure and people will get back to fighting a fight worth it’s sand.

  288. 288
    chigau (違う)

    thepeachjuicer
    You are a Meathead.
    Dead from the neck up.

  289. 289
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I’m over this. I hope that girl may find some closure and people will get back to fighting a fight worth it’s sand.

    Good to see where your outrage lies. Not with bringing judgment to the rapists, those who enabled it, those who encouraged and joked about the rape and those who are sweeping it away in the name of football. Not with trying to keep this from happening to others.

    Your outrage is with those of us who are outraged by the rape and the attempted cover up.

    Stick your head in the ground, you will feel better about yourself.

  290. 290
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    *sigh*

    I’m over this. I hope that girl may find some closure and people will get back to fighting a fight worth it’s sand.

    Good to see where your outrage lies. Not with bringing judgment to the rapists, those who enabled it, those who encouraged and joked about the rape and those who are sweeping it away in the name of football. Not with trying to keep this from happening to others.

    Your outrage is with those of us who are outraged by the rape and the attempted cover up.

    Stick your head in the ground, you will feel better about yourself.

  291. 291
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    One more thing, if more people were actually like you, the young woman would never even begin to try to have closure.

  292. 292
    mastigoteuthidae

    Caine, Fleur du mal +:

    Rape apologetics or your inability to process information? Alert sent? I think you have an inflated sense of self importance. Someone calls you out on your bull and you try to have them banned. Funny I seem to be able to post today. You could simply read again what I wrote and leave the preconceived conclusions out and discover that you may have read more into it than was there. Or you can double down and act like a toddler caught lying.

  293. 293
    SallyStrange

    Caine doesn’t have any bull, not that I’ve seen. If you think you’re calling her on anything you’re probably wrong. Just because you’re not banned yet doesn’t mean you won’t be–keep trying!

  294. 294
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Matigoteuthidae, take a gander at thepeachjuicer’s vomit @285. You probably (hopefully) were horrified and sickened by that.

    But here’s the thing.

    Thepeachjuicer – probably a one-off drive-by troll – thinks that you are on his side.

  295. 295
    athyco

    mastigoteuthidae

    You initially came to tell us “your” story of the rape culture in the 70s. We don’t like your focus, expressed to us by your choice of vocabulary–typical weekend, willing type of girl, friend guiltily admitted. And unluckily for you, you couldn’t even proofread well enough to keep the woman in that particular story:

    One friend guiltily admitted that he had once forced a drunken, non-consenting, but unable to fight him off, [ ??? ] into sex. In that sort of atmosphere it was thought of as normal.

    In later comments, you try to tell us that this “friend” wasn’t even in the frat house when you lived there. Since there’s no other time frame that you’re relating in the paragraph, that makes you one shitty writer, mastigoteuthidae. You ought to be abashed enough to apologize for at least that, but no, we’re bad at reading comprehension.

    You want to claim that we’re all wrong about you. Well, what are we wrong about? We say that you watched the rape culture happen in the 70s and didn’t do a fucking thing about it. Rather than tell us what fucking thing you did or have done, we get a variation of Boo hoo, what can you expect, the big bad administration wanted it swept under the rug, so what’s a guy to do? Hey, I’m only a guy without direct experience, I only lived and interacted daily with guys in that culture. That’s the way it was. That’s the way it is. If you women will only realize that, it’ll let us individual nice guys off the hook, and we can keep on watching it from the periphery. Don’t make me have any responsibility! I’m in a group so virtuous that we don’t even “steal” kisses!

    If your rhetoric pushes such as I away it certainly is not going to have any weight with the guys I know that pick up a newspaper, pull out the sports section, and throw the rest away. You can take your place over in the far corner with what they think of as feminazis and man-haters. In other words the people that need to hear will listen to you at all.

    So…we’re right that there’s a rape culture; in this particular case, one that prioritizes sports over sexual assault. To this day, you still know guys who think the way you describe above. What do you do now? You come to a site that has a history of feminist posts. You tell us how it was in the 70s and that nothing’s changed. You tell us that if we’re not nice to you with your shitty, valueless, no-assistance-offered writing, that we’ll push you away. If we can’t be nice to you, really BAD people won’t listen to us.

    We are not going to be gaslighted into thinking you’re any type of good guy/ally in this. We don’t need you. Tell me ONE THING of value that you’ve told us; tell me ONE TACTIC you can facilitate to reach these guys you know who throw away everything but the sports page and have images of feminazis and man-haters in their ignorant heads. One stinking thing that we didn’t already know because, dude, we were and are in the fucking middle of it, not on the observation deck.

    If you can’t, then–push, push, push, PUSH.

  296. 296
    LykeX

    @thepeachjuicer

    I sincerely hope that you die. Horribly, painfully and soon.

    No, not because I think you mean what you said, I’m well aware that you probably were just trolling. I don’t hope you die because of what I think you meant, I hope you die because of what you actually said.

    Only a truly disgustingly evil person would actually think of having fun by throwing shit at rape victims. Anyone willing to do that is a worthless sack of shit. It is for that reason that I hope you die; horribly, painfully and soon. I genuinely believe that the world would be a better place if you weren’t in it.

  297. 297
    erikthebassist

    Thepeachjuicer,

    I don’t wish for your untimely death. I hope you live a long life, and die of natural causes at an old age. I hope that the people who come in contact with you are able to recognize what a vile little shit you are, and that they run screaming from you like a plague infested tick.

    I hope you are alone and miserable for your entire pathetic life and that when the end is near, when you realize what a useless sack of bile you have been, that you are so filled with regret and so utterly alone that you can not wait to die.

    I hope your death bed is a torturous and tedious experience during which you have little else to do but reflect and your miserable life, and that you will have no doubt in your mind as to why no one could be bothered to care as you lie there and rot. That is what I hope and that is what you deserve.

  298. 298
    erikthebassist

    reflect on your miserable life. *

  299. 299
    mastigoteuthidae

    SallyStrange: Go back and read what she said about me and show me how it was justified. Specifically what did I say that would justify banning? I did not rape anyone. I did not condone rape. I did not participate in any of the activities I described. I did not blame the victims or profess that they had it coming. I was not a participant of “rape culture” in any way. If people read into what I wrote things that just were not there maybe I should lower my expectations of the average persons reading comprehension. I was attacked, insulted, and lies were told about me. In any of the situations that I spoke of there was little or nothing that I could have done to change it. If you think you can change the way students behave at schools go do it but don’t blame me for it.

    In the city where I live now there are people out there putting drugs into others drinks at bars to either steal from them or take sexual advantage of them. Is it happening, absolutely. Can I prove it in any specific instance, no. Is there anything other than letting people know it is happening that I can do about it, no. By relating that it happens am I to blame for it, no.

    Esteleth: I do not see anything in what Thepeachjuicer wrote that is connected with anything I said. Reread it and show me how I am connected with it.

    Athyco: Booze parties at colleges were and are still a typical weekend. Feel free to observe Fraternity Row and any good sized school any Friday night. Willing women exist and that is a central tenet of feminism, do I need to quote Brown, Friedan and Steinem? I made no judgments on the girls that spent the night with frat boys. I did at one point get into a standoff with the brothers when I found out they were having some of the guys watch the girls have sex from closets or through windows, they didn’t kick me out, and stopped doing it as far as I know. I suppose today they use webcams. All I can do is warn.

    I have made typographical errors but that does not invalidate everything I might have said. Why point it out? If you or others made assumptions as to time and place where none were stated they you made a mistake. I could have made it clearer but I am not a professional writer.

    Society is screwed up, especially in high schools, and I have very little influence on those in that age group. If and when I can do something I certainly will, but the opportunity to do so is improbable. The misogynistic men I encounter don’t care what I think.

  300. 300
    PZ Myers

    mastigoteuthidae: what should you have done? Well, at this time we’d kind of expect that you’d stop calling fucking rapists “friend”. That’s the least of it.

  301. 301
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Does thepeachjuicer also go by The Amazing Atheist? Fuck what an asshole.
    ****
    LykeX:
    Please do not wish for someone to die. Not cool. The amazingly shitheaded peachjuicer is rancid smegmarmalade, yes but wishing for hir death is just wrong.

  302. 302
    Inaji

    A squirm of maggots burrowing in a pile of shit is noble next to mastigoteuthidae, who seems to think that providing cover and protection for a rapist is not only normal, but a point of pride.

  303. 303
    Inaji

    Tony:

    wishing for hir death is just wrong.

    Agreed. I understand the emotion, but this is not a good thing, nor is the expression thereof. Think of all those who say things like “I hope you get raped, bitch!” and the like. We’ve seen plenty of that sort of thing, and fight against it tooth and nail.

  304. 304
    Markita Lynda—threadrupt

    I’m with you, PZ. I can’t contemplate it and keep my usual non-violent attitude.

  305. 305
    athyco

    There will always be something more for you to add, won’t there, mastigoteuthidae? It takes until now for you to relate this one time that you stood up to the brothers and didn’t get kicked out of the house, although this little exception to the rule wasn’t remembered while you were using the fear of eviction as a reason not to do something aimed at them, was it? (Of course, I’m unreasonable to bring that up; he’s not a professional writer like ALL of us.)

    And I’m about to puke here, because each time he posts with something to make himself look good as a stand-up guy, he has to give us one or two more gorge-raising details. Now you tell us, mastigoteuthidae, that you knew they were providing sex shows for their fapping brothers in closets and outside windows?!? Hey, but you know…some of those might have been the “willing type of girl” who smiled at you the next morning.

    Hasn’t our rhetoric been cruel enough to such as you to run you off? Here ya go: If I had a hand covered with shit, I wouldn’t wipe it off on you, mastigoteuthidae, because touching you would make it more disgusting.

  306. 306
    LykeX

    See, this is why I shouldn’t post when I’ve been drinking. Sorry, guys, I’ll rein it in.

  307. 307
    mastigoteuthidae

    The person in question had been a friend of mine in high school. I was told of what he did years later and as far as I can remember it may have been the last time I spoke to him. So feel free to replace “friend” with “some guy”. For all the people that seem to have nothing but hate in their hearts, if you can make an enemy of me then you will have absolutely no chance whatsoever to change the attitudes of the men that treat women as sex objects. I will not be back, happy?

  308. 308
    chigau (違う)

    bwahahhahhha

  309. 309
    John Morales

    mastigoteuthidae:

    For all the people that seem to have nothing but hate in their hearts, if you can make an enemy of me then you will have absolutely no chance whatsoever to change the attitudes of the men that treat women as sex objects.

    Aren’t you kind of irrelevant, there?

    (People with nothing but hate in their hearts wouldn’t be seeking to do good whether or not they earn your enmity)

  310. 310
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I will not be back, happy?

    Would have been happier if you never appeared with your rape apologetics and other fuckwittery.

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