I can sort of understand — I had two boys who were engaged to scouting to various degrees. There’s the camaraderie, the camping, the teamwork, the fun activities, all good and appealing. But then it sinks in that they’re promoting right-wing ideology. No gays allowed. No atheists allowed. The best people are heterosexual church-goers.
Ryan Andresen was a kid who went through the whole routine with enthusiasm, and even got to the point where he’d completed his Eagle Scout project and was going to be given the highest award in the organization. And then they turned him down. Two reasons have been given.
One is that he was openly gay. This is a bleeding wound in scouting — Ryan is just the latest casualty.
The Boy Scouts of America have come under fire for its ban on gay members and leaders, which it reaffirmed in July, leading dozens of Eagle Scouts to return their medals. Last month, tech giant Intel, one of the Scout’s biggest donors, announced that it would no longer donate to the organization, or any organization that didn’t adhere to its anti-discrimination policy. Additionally, both President Obama and Mitt Romney voiced opposition to the Scouts’ gay ban.
There’s no denying that being gay puts you on the outs with the Boy Scouts. But there’s another reason: it turns out that everyone knew long in advance about his sexual orientation, but the final straw was that he’s a goddamned atheist.
“This scout proactively notified his unit leadership and Eagle Scout counselor that he does not agree to scouting’s principle of ‘Duty to God’ and does not meet scouting’s membership standard on sexual orientation,” Deron Smith, a spokesman for the organization said in a statement. “Agreeing to do one’s ‘Duty to God’ is a part of the scout Oath and Law and a requirement of achieving the Eagle Scout rank.
In other words, this was a fellow with enough integrity that he refused to check off one box on his form: he had done all the work, he’d probably put up with a lot of crap on the way (his Eagle Scout project was on bullying), and then, at the last minute, confronted with the choice to lie and conform, or to be honest to himself and others, he chose honesty.
I think he’s a better man for being true.
That ought to be the death knell for the Boy Scouts, when turning down their highest award becomes a point of honor.
A gay atheist wanting to be a member of the BSA is like one trying to be a member of the GOP, today.
Stubborn masochist and bigot apologist shocked to find that he has been victimized!
Seriously, why don’t concerned parents simply form a non-discriminating version if they really want that for their kids.
The BSA is controlled at the national level by fundie xians and Mormons.
You expected something different?
It was supposed to be an outdoor activity/adventuring organization for kids. What being gay or an atheist has to do with paddling a canoe or camping is obscure.
Hitchens: Religion poisons everything.
I don’t recall this “Duty to GAWD” bullshit when I was a Scout, but then that was 40 years ago, and “Morally Straight” was more about being moral and not so much on being STR8.
Fundies spoil everything they touch.
Duty to God? Back in the fifties, I dropped out of Cub Scouts at the “Bear” level because I had quit going to church (in favor of going fishing with my Dad), and many of my fellow scouts had realized (though I hadn’t yet) that I was “different” and a good target for teasing and bullying. And I figured I could fulfill my “duty to God” by treating him the same as any other fictional character. I had no more duty to God than I did to Superman (whose comics I didn’t read) or to Mickey Mouse (which I did read).
Wow, that young man is so much more brave than I was at his age. I can’t imagine how frustrating that must be for him, but I hope that he is proud of himself for standing up for who he is and what he believes in.
@shripathikamath:
Who exactly are you referring to here? Ryan Andresen? And if so, what exactly is your point? I’m sorry it’s really not clear to me — but maybe I just need more coffee.
Also, FYI: there are gays (Log Cabin Republicans) and atheists (Karl Rove, Edwina Rogers) in the GOP. Almost certainly gay atheists, too.
Of course not. If human history is any indication, the BSA will double down on their bigotry and defend it, not stop. (See e.g. Chick-fil-A). They will become more and more the target of mockery and derision, and within a generation or two they will either get with the program or fade into embarrassing irrelevance. But the chief weasels adding their weasely $.02 in favor of non-discrimination can only be a good thing. Open agreement with (or silence in the face of) BSA’s policies would be truly awful.
Quite the haters and bigots here.
Of course, the reality is the opposite. You can be a worthwhile and ethical person and believe in an imaginary Sky Fairy. It’s just a lot harder and many of them never make it.
FWIW, the bigotry of the christofascist BSA seems to have hurt them a bit.
Membership has dropped 20% in a decade.
There might be other reasons for this, growing urbanization, the popularity of computer games, etc..
But a lot of groups are highly critical of their discrimination. And the No Religions make up 22% of the population and growing rapidly, and it is higher among young people.
When I was a lad in the scouts (UK version), we had the occasional Dog worship (once a year?) and the obligatory prayer, but it was all regarded as the sort of bollocks you had to put up with to do the more exciting stuff. This was Church of England territory, after all, where people go to church for social reasons, not to actually worship Dog. We had the same crap at school. None of our boy scout troop believed in Dog. We knew about ‘queers’, but none of us had knowingly met one. If there were rules agin it, we sure didn’t know, or even care about them. Has it changed that much, or is this an American thing?
Man when I was a kid, at least they had the courtesy to boot me out at the Weblo level for not being christian!
What was even more dumb about that was I’d only semi-deconverted. I still believed in Dog, just not all the stuff in the bible. It was like a year or two after my family had quit the JWs and I hadn’t sorted everything out in my head. If they’d held on to me they probably coulda converted me – I was at that young, stupid, malleable age…
A discussion about gays, corporate donations, the BSA, and mormons is currently underway on an ex-mormon forum: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,662169
PZ:
Yep, that’s a reasonable expectation – the GOP stopped being able to effect national politics when they openly and unapologetically demonized gays and atheists, right?
…right?
I was a Cub Scout, once upon a time (early ’90s). I thought I fit into their ideological mold: I even worked to get the “God and Me” metal since I wanted decorations. I was never a Boy Scout per se: I dropped out after Webelos because the activities (which in my “den” consisted almost solely of sitting and watching people talk) bored me to death.
I started having doubts about religion almost precisely at the same time, and later still had doubts about my sexuality. I have absolutely no regrets that I washed my hands of that organization and didn’t stay a moment longer than I did.
@9 Daven,
This is an American thing and also just the Boy Scouts; the Girl Scouts are a separate organization and have different policies (enough different that they get regularly pilloried by some in the right wing).
I should also point out that it is the BSA that is saying that Ryan has problems with Duty to God. Ryan’s family has denied this and says he believes in a ‘higher power’. Officially the BSA leaves the Duty to God to a boy and his family/religious authorities as long as he says the words (no variations allowed). A former BSA president even said it didn’t matter whether ‘God’ was a rock in Japan.
@daven
Things were pretty much the same in the US, once in a blue moon there was a one minute silent prayer or something. Then in the mid-80s, the BSA national leadership was taken over by the hyper religious and mormons. They put out a new, totally changed edition of the handbook, which my troop ignored, I recall.
It’s sad, really. I loved being in scouts. I learned orienteering and lots of outdoor skills in it. In college, I taught geology and field biology at a scout camp one summer (mostly leading hikes and pointing put indigenous plants and animals, layers in the cliff face, nonconformities – the geolocal kind, not the behavioral kind). The next summer, they told me that they weren’t supporting that position anymore.
“geological”
… damn autocrat
“autocorrect”
-.-
As a former Boy Scout who made it all the way to Eagle, it really depresses me what the organization has become. The organization is a fantastic group, they teach leadership and outdoor skills to youth who might otherwise have no opportunity to learn those things. Except of course that the organization itself is bigoted and officially supports discrimination.
About two or three decades ago this would not have been a problem (of course it was far less socially acceptable to be openly gay, let alone atheist, back then). At the time the BSA was very welcoming and open toward people of all faiths and orientations and god was not a very large part of the organization.
Enter the Mormons. Around the mid 80’s or so (probably have the date completely wrong but it was near that time frame) the LDS church decided to use the BSA as their youth organization. Today (this is in California, I can’t speak for the rest of the US but I hear its the same) every male LDS youth between the ages of 11 and 18 is the member of a troop with very few exceptions. These units are run by the LDS ward, are 100% mormon, and most of the kids are not there by choice.
Their parents/bishops tell them they must be in the boy scouts. The leaders of the units are also told by their church leaders that they’ll be the unit leaders for a year… whether they want to or not. There is very little choice and enthusiasm in these units.
Now this only makes up for (in CA) about 20% of the units in the state. But since these units are made up of the entire stake center’s youth population, it accounts for about 50% of the registration. That’s a lot of membership fees going into the BSA.
So of course the BSA will cater to the LDS church’s politics. Its been slowly moving toward the religious right for the last few years or so. And it tends to be a trickle down effect. An increasing amount of units are chartered by churches. The amount of non-christian membership (buddhists, jainists, etc, who are technically allowed because they have a “religion” (but I can say from personal experience are also bullied and victimized both by youth and adults in the organization because they are allowed in by a “technicality”) is dropping. There are other factors as well (the national office of the BSA, where all of the policy is written, is located in Irving, Texas), but this is one of the largest effects.
One thing I can say for the BSA is that it is (technically) left up to the individual units to decide agains whom they want to discriminate. Generally speaking if a unit is okay with an atheist/gay person being in the unit then the BSA as an organization doesn’t do a whole lot to get them kicked out. Earning Eagle Scout is another matter, its reviewed by a committee of individuals outside your unit so it’s kind of a toss up of how bigoted your reviewers are.
I’d love to be a member of the BSA again. I’d love for my future kids to be members too. Just as soon as they end their policy of discrimination…
One last thing to add, the Girl Scouts are more or less the complete opposite of the Boy Scouts on this issue. They allow lesbian leaders and have allowed trans-gendered youth to be in the organization (not entirely sure what their stance is on atheism). So I guess the moral of the story is Boy Scouts = Bad, Girl Scouts = Good.
New Boy Scout motto: “We’ll give some medals to the atheists and the gays, but we don’t want the Irish!”
Many years ago, I attended a friend’s Eagle Scout induction ceremony, and was amazed and appalled at the amount of religion in everything. Nothing official happened without its own prayer beforehand. It was absurd: they said grace before dinner was served, and then they said it again before the desserts came out. I thought of a Monty-Python-esque preacher saying “We ask thee, O Lord, to bless this, thy ice cream”…. The whole thing made me quite uncomfortable, and glad I never got involved with the Scouts myself.
@davem
Even the UK Scouts are a bit weird, the kids can be whatever they like but you can’t officially be a leader if you’re an atheist (being gay is fine though). My flatmate volunteers as an assistant leader, and said they basically operate a ‘don’t ask don’t tell’ policy where no-one actually asks if the volunteer is religious (flatmate is also an atheist, wasn’t going to lie if asked directly but the leader of his troop has deliberately been careful never to ask on any official form)
I’ve been dubious for years about the BSA’s claim to be a “private organization” (said claim having been upheld by the USSC in the case that let them discriminate). They are established by Congressional Charter…which sure makes them look like a *public* organization to me. I think they ought to either be forced to drop discriminatory policies and actions OR drop their Congressional Charter.
As for the “duty to God” thing…an atheist can do his duty to any and all gods. After all…what are the duties owed to something that doesn’t exist?
I became an atheist in sixth grade. There was a gap between when I decided I didn’t believe in God and when I started to tell people that. After I became an Atheist, I stopped being an alterserver. Then I stopped going to church. But the first thing I did after becoming an Atheist was leave the Boy Scouts.
My dad told me not to worry one bit about pretending to believe in god to get into the scouts. He was more concerned that I had to pledge loyalty to the queen, but since it gave me something to do on a Thursday evening, I lied about that too. Lesson one. Second lesson was that the whole uk scouts organisation (and my group in particular) is set up to maximise bullying of weaker children. Third lesson is to support your children in avoiding and dealing with bullying when it happens. I will never allow what happened to me happen to my children. I survived so it’s not so bad, but my kids will never join that militaristic, racist, nazi, rotten organisation and if they ever by chance encounter something similar I will see it first and protect them.
This makes me sick thinking about it. I despise the scouts.
You might already know about this, but if not, check it out – it’s awesome. http://eaglebadges.tumblr.com/ It seems to be turning into somewhat of a movement.
The real purpose of the “duty to God” bit is to reinforce the idea that believing in God is not optional: everybody believes. There is no question. God exists. Of course. That’s just obvious, it’s uncontroversial. The only question is whether you will “recognize …God as the ruling and leading power in the universe” and gratefully “acknowledge” His favors. That’s where the faith part comes in: trusting IN God, as your leader. God AS leader is a universal given.
They fear this Eagle Scout because they fear people who make it seem like there’s a controversy. Once you start to ask good questions, they’re hard to stop. So they have to reframe the problem as being ungrateful, rather than a matter not just of conscience, but of reason.
ah yeah, Weblos and Cub Scouts…
I still recall having left them both at a very young age because the discrimination on display was obvious, even to a 7 year old.
it was all about promoting authoritarianism, and much less about promoting exploration and community.
I just didn’t have the vocab to express that at 7, so I simply quit.
I’d love to be a member of the BSA again. I’d love for my future kids to be members too. Just as soon as they end their policy of discrimination…
not me. I know from experience that with such heavy conservative Mormon involvement, there is not going to be progress.
If you want your kids to part of a youth organization that promotes progressive ideals, exploration, wilderness skills and community, you’ll have to work with others to create a new one, and stop relying on the old guard to come around to your way of thinking.
I was a Den Mother once. The fact that I wasn’t religious was successfully outweighed by the fact that I was the only Mom who agreed to do it, and none of the Dads could.
By the time my son had to do some sort of religious activity to get a particular badge someone else had taken over. I informed her that I planned on fulfilling the criteria by having my son read and write reports on different philosophers.
I thought that was an excellent idea, and at the time didn’t realize that it wasn’t exactly what the Scouts wanted. This was years ago and my only direct experience with Christian churches had been a year attending a liberal Quaker Meeting in Downer’s Grove, IL. Religion = Humanism = Philosophy = Ethics = What Works For You, We’re Happy If You’re Happy. So I was a bit surprised that the small town Lutheran Den Mother seemed reluctant to “allow” it. Really? Why?
She did, though. She probably thought it wasn’t going to be worth the argument… not with someone who wanted her 8-year old to study philosophy, at any rate. She didn’t want to come right out and answer that “why?”
Probably wise of her.
And many national parks wave the entrance fees for scouting groups. And scout groups often get to use public facilities for no or reduced cost for meetings. And, back in my day, were allowed to distribute membership information in public school during instructional time. So, to the extent that they receive monies in the form of services from governments, they are a public organization.
Way too close for comfort.
I was wary when I read the title but figured I could back out if it was too close. This is an excellent post and makes me even happier that Boy and I both left scouts rather quickly.
This has prompted me to do some research into the Scouting and Guiding movements in Canada. My husband and I were both involved when we were kids (early 90s) though neither of us advanced very far, and we were chatting about this the other day. As far as he can remember, the (Cub?) Scout Promise was a promise of duty to one’s family, one’s community and one’s country. When I was in Brownies, in contrast, the phrase I remember from the Brownie Promise was “I promise to do my best, to do my duty to god, the queen and my country.”
Today, on the other hand, Scouts at every level involves a pledge to love and serve god and to do one’s duty by the queen, while the Girl Guides use the following: “I promise to do my best,
to be true to myself, my beliefs and Canada. I will take action for a better world, and respect the Guiding[Brownie] Law.” Girl Guides Canada is still a girls-only affair, while Scouts allows both boys and girls, but where the Guides have a very strong statement about inclusivity and don’t say anything about required beliefs, Scouts expect everyone who joins to have a “basic spiritual belief.” The Guides also seem to be changing a lot of the somewhat militaristic practices and moving away from explicit religious expressions, because they’ve recognized that in a multicultural and diverse country they don’t mean the same things to everyone.
I’ve been saying for years that I’d rather get my hypothetical kids into Scouting than Girl Guiding, because the Brownie activities were often kind of dull, but I may have to rethink that – and hope that Guiding eventually admits both boys and girls.
Mormons and southern Methodists are in charge of BSA and have been for about 15 years.
Baden-Powell will be turning in his grave.
@atkelly
“Enter the Mormons. Around the mid 80′s or so (probably have the date completely wrong but it was near that time frame) the LDS church decided to use the BSA as their youth organization.”
Quite a bit wrong. The BSA has been the Mormon male youth organization since the early part of the 19th century, decades before the 1980s. Mormon troops tend to be smaller than non-Mormon troops so the percentage of registered Mormon youth is smaller than the percentage of registered Mormon troops (unfortunately the voice in BSA decisions is decided by number of registered units not youth so the LDS with 5 Mormon wards in a district each with a troop of size 10 and a total of 50 youth has five times the voice of the local United Church of Christ with a sponsored troop with 65 youths of all religious backgrounds). Not helping is that the Mormons may coordinate efforts at the national level to affect BSA policy and that doesn’t hold true with some other large sponsors.
It is not just the Mormons, the Catholic church also sponsors a lot of troops (though they are more likely to be mixed religiously) and almost certainly applies some pressure at least at the diocese level.
BTW if looking at the wikipedia pages on the controversy check also the talk pages.
It is not just the Mormons, the Catholic church also sponsors a lot of troops
where I was a cub scout, the org was sponsored by presbyterians.
still was authoritarian and discriminatory.
how often need it be said?
“Religion poisons everything”
Why? Because in many communities it’s “the only game in town.” If you want some kind of group activity, educational activity, or outdoor activity that isn’t sports, BSA is often your only choice.
I’m trying to imagine what the booting-out process is like for young atheists or gays, and envisioning something like the opening scene of the Chuck Connors TV series “Branded.”.
We really need a whole new organization where kids can plant trees, maybe do some gardening, learn up to date survival skills, etc. and it should be open to all kids, including disabled.
QFT.
In a capitalistic society, demand gets filled one way or another.
As I posted above, the BSA is losing members even as our population grows, down 20% in a decade.
There is Camp Quest, for No Religions which I don’t know much about even though it is frequently mentioned on this website.
The BSA and older similar groups do have one advantage that I can see. They are old and relatively large and own lots of summer camp properties in nice places out in the forests and similar country envirnoments.
Re: Erp (@#34)…
Ummm… Early 19th century? You sure about that? One could debate such a vague qualifier for the founding of the Mormons (1830), but the BSA? That was started the in the US the same month and year my father was born…February 1910.
We really need a whole new organization
it’s easy enough to start something local.
at the same time, more effort should be put on removing the “faith based charity” initiative. Since BOTH current presidential candidates are on record as opposing the discriminatory practices of the Boy Scouts, and the Scouts are, by definition, a faith based charity….
it’s time to end this inane hypocrisy.
so, work to create something local to you. look to apply for funding support from both local and federal grant programs, and keep harping on your government to DROP support for “faith based charities” that are actually part of the problem, instead of the solution.
Google didn’t have any quick info on how many summer camp properties the BSA has.
It seems to be a lot though, in the thousands maybe.
A lot of them are in national forests and similar places. I’m wondering now if they aren’t owned but leased from the Forest Service and BLM.
Hmmm, maybe there is an opening there for more inclusive and less oogedy boogedy youth camping organizations. After all, the US government, as a major landholder, can’t discriminate based on religion, can it? LOL, in theory I mean.
I read some where that the Wiccans tried to set up a boy scout troop. The national organization refused to accept them. Bunch of Goddess hating hypocrites.
There’s 4-H. It’s a program of the US Department of Agriculture, so only a US thing, but, since it is clearly a government-connected entity, no god-bothering allowed. 4-H is pretty wide open in its activities, from drama to astronomy, farm animals to electronics.
At one event — the annual banquet for our club — someone did say a clearly christian prayer, but my wife and I wrote a letter to one of the adult leaders, and she didn’t argue at all. There was no prayer at all the next year. (I had looked up the 4-H standard on this, and it was the usual BS about ‘secular’ prayer being acceptable.)
No suprise.
I left the Scouts at 12 because I was bored of spending each winter doing nothing but practise tying knots. I had always glossed over the ‘god and queen’ bit anyway, so my early atheism didn’t really come into play.
Thirty-six years later I can only remember how to tie two knots, neither of which has yet saved my life.
Thirty-six years later I can only remember how to tie two knots, neither of which has yet saved my life.
I’ve only ever had 2 knots ever be important to my safety:
bowline
and a simple square knot.
of all knots, if I only had one to choose from, it would be the bowline.
About looking for a good organization for youngsters…
People might take a look at the Society for Create Anachronism. The SCA is explicitly secular, and while the main focus is on activities of interest to adults, there is no bar to kids doing things as well. The only bar on younger members doing things is armed hand-to-hand combat, for which the organization insists that participants must be old enough to have reached pretty much full growth to avoid injuries due to bones not being completely grown.
There isn’t even a bar on under 18s *running* groups. I know of one case where a minor was head of a branch and he had a “Deputy for Signing Contracts”–his mother–since he couldn’t sign a binding contract due to his age. (Try *that* trick in most organizations!)
The SCA will give full awards (not just special kids awards) based on achievement regardless of age, so one meets kids who might out-rank their own grandparents in the Society.
As a former Scoutmaster I can tell you a few things about how the program is run at the unit level and first of all National BSA is a long, long way away geographically and politically from what happens in a unit.
Rule number 1 is safety. Leaders are tasked with running a safe, age appropriate program. On par with Rule Number 1 is this: never penalize a youth for a failure in the program.
That means if a youth is signed off on a requirement and that teaching was deficient you can’t “take back” the requirement. It’s signed. Address the fault in your program.
To cut to the chase, the unit leader in this case failed Ryan and penalized him for a failure in the BSA program. What the unit leader should have done is sign off and celebrate Ryan’s achievement, then work with the Council commissioner team through his unit commissioner to develop a way to implement the program more effectively, that is, to ignore the National policy, which is used indiscriminately as a cudgel.
As for duty to God, that’s a personal part of the oath that means the youth is responsible for supporting and attending to his own traditions. It does not mean a youth has to believe in a sky fairy, although I have run into untrained leaders who think that is the case. It is not. “Belief in God” was removed from the BSA application form 15 years ago.
The BSA program focuses on three things: leadership, citizenship and physical fitness. The biggest problem the BSA faces is poorly or untrained adult leadership. As a Scoutmaster and commissioner with over 20 years of experience I have had problems with less than 1% of the youth, 50% of the parents and 100% of untrained parents or leaders.
As for the National BSA policy, follow the money. Ironically, Scouting started as a grassroots movement, formalized by Baden-Powell in 1907. You can run the program without a lot of money and with none of the politics. It’s fun with a purpose and that’s the way it should be.
Ironically, Scouting started as a grassroots movement, formalized by Baden-Powell in 1907
it’s been over a hundred years.
time for a new grassroots movement.
You mean like this?
My oldest son was in scouts since age 6, and he earned his Eagle rank. He’s also an atheist. Before his eagle board of review, we talked about how he would discuss his “duty to God” in his board. He said he viewed his duty as a duty to remain true to his beliefs, as well as respect the beliefs of others. On the gay issue, a few years ago we had an “incident” with a scout we suspected to be gay (not that that was an issue). The older boys & I were talking about it, and agreed unanimously that gay scouts or leaders were welcome in our troop. One of the boys said “It’s not our business what you do in private, and if you’re gay, you need the leadership and camaraderie of scouting even more.” I was never prouder of my scouts than that day. My youngest has a couple years to go before he reaches Eagle, and I wonder how the board is going to react to him: he’s a Pastafarian.
Re: knots, I used to do rigging for stage lights, and I used several of the knots I used in scouting. The knots didn’t save my life, but they certainly protected the lives of the people in the audience.
One more thing: Despite the influence of the religious groups on the BSA, I don’t think it will maintain its ban on gay members. I predict they’ll drop it within 5 years.
You mean like this?
hard to tell from a flyer.
I always love it when some social conservative BSA member points to the oath, as if that’s somehow the final authority on how you do scouting the Right Way. Baden Powell deliberately and explicitly wrote the boy scout’s promise as a promise and not an oath, so the very fact that there is an oath means U R doin it rong.
Yet more political doublethink / speak. “How dare you discriminate against gay people! Can’t be fucked doing anything about my own discrimination, but how dare you!
Goddammit Obama, stop being the ‘lesser of two eveils’ and start being fucking useful.
@whheydt,
Thanks for catching the mistake, I was thinking early 1900s and wrote 19th century.
@Jurjen S.
As far as I’m aware only the BSA and a few of the countries whose scouting programs derive most directly from the BSA use ‘oath’. The GSUSA and the UK scouting/guiding programs and countries that derive scouting from them use promise or pledge (or equivalent in the local language).
@Doc Bill,
I wonder whether the Scoutmaster got pressure from his chartering organization which is a moderately conservative church.
re: Erp (@#53)
I figured it was probably something like that…but one never knows.
Since I cited my father, who was in the BSA in his youth and *never* pushed it on me, he is my example of how short US history is. He died 3 months after his 65th birthday, but his experiences ran from eyewitness accounts of the US Civil War from his own grandfather to dropping hints that, should I find a sudden urge to move to Canada during the Viet Nam War, financing would be available.
My husband (an Eagle Scout) and I (a Gold Award winner) were struggling with the Boy Scouts. And by struggling, I mean I was unequivocally against it and David couldn’t bear telling our kids that we weren’t going to allow participation in an activity that had obviously been incredibly important to both of us as kids. We have 3 boys, the oldest is almost 7. I think he finally saw my point of view when I pointed out that I would be unable to volunteer or participate in our kids’ scouting experience with the Boy Scouts because I am an atheist. Even if we found a troop that “didn’t care” about that kind of thing, the higher ups have proven that they are happy to kick out anyone no matter what the local leadership are fine with, and I’m not willing to set myself or my family up for that kind of humiliation.
BUT THEN! We found out about the fully-inclusive Baden-Powell Service Association that is dedicated to “traditional scouting” (as opposed to the more woo-oriented Indigo Scouts or less-outdoorsy Campfire Scouts.) They are just getting started in the US, but are well-established in the UK & Canada, and a group is forming in Austin. Hallelujah. If anyone wants to get involved (or contribute to their IndieGoGo campaign to expand programs in the US, check out http://bpsa-us.org and http://www.indiegogo.com/bp-service-association (Please consider contributing or spread the word!)
@ERP
I can only speculate. I think there was something personal going on with the Scoutmaster and he used policy as a stick to punish the youth, for whatever reason. My opinion. The Charter Org. does have final say over who is Scoutmaster and Committee Chair but, you know, the pay is pretty low for both those positions, zero.
Plus, as Scoutmaster you get to spend about $2000/yr on bits and pieces and your own donations, uniforms, patches, etc. Plus, you get to spend 10-15 days per month, every month, on Scouting activities: troop meetings, planning meetings, district and council events, campouts, reviews, etc.
That said, it’s fun and satisfying if you like that sort of thing, but if the COR tried to pressure me to punish a youth for failure of the program I, and the SM’s I know, would simply say “no.” Firing the SM gives him a pay raise and vacation! Some pressure!
No, the problem is big money at the top, not petty prejudice at the bottom.
Sleazy Myers doesn’t really care about what’s best for the Scouts. He just loves that feeling of narcissistic moral superiority that comes from such posturing. Or maybe he’s a gay pedophile (ever hear his voice?). Does your wife know, Sleazy?
You’d just love to get your hands on some boy scouts, eh? Luckily, the majority of scouts aren’t falling for it.
And hypocritical douchebags like you can’t do a thing about it. Must be frustrating to an enlightened pedo like you.
Tee hee.
Well, at least you showed up in the right thread this time, hoggler. You get one point for that.
Sorry, though, your score is wiped out by the minus points for having your username “averagetruth” so sadly contradicted by your inability to say anything true.
Don’t bother trying again. You’re obviously not capable of rationality, so you have nothing worth contributing here. Go hoggle somewhere else.
Obvious troll is obvious.
But, ok, let’s play your asinine game.
Your premise is that organizations with an enforced religious base and inherent anti-gay creed are better at protecting children in their care, right?
I can think of a few counterexamples.
Including, you know, the largest single Christian sect on the planet.
…so, I’m sorry, did you have any point more intelligent than “huh huh, all dem gay rightz aktivistz iz reely kiddee feelerz huh huh,” by chance?
Because we usually get a smarter breed of troll here – you might wanna brush up on your technique.
averagetruth, does that work in your world? Some unknown someone just says a bunch of crazy, hateful stuff, and you listen to them and believe it?
It doesn’t work like that with us smart folks. We want evidence, facts and logic. The closest you get to that is asking about PZ’s voice. IF pedos had a distinctive voice, AND only pedos had that, and IF it were true that PZ had such a voice, that might be evidence. But there’s no such voice, really, and PZ’s voice isn’t near the stereotype, so you miss out there. But that, bad as it was, was better than the rest of your nonsense.
I’m sure that you have far more issues than you accuse PZ of, and in evidence of that, I offer your comment.
(By the way, just in case you think your trolling has angered me or wasted my time—there is no anger here, and I got to practice my writing.)
whheydt
6 October 2012 at 12:19 pm
Alternatively:
I was reading some Irish mythology a while back, and several characters, when taking an oath, would use the words “I swear by the gods my people swear by”. (I suppose this was because in a polytheistic society there could be so many gods to swear by, the person recieving your oath might know know who your were).
I suppose technically this oath could also be valid for atheists (if “my people” are other atheists, then “the gods my people swear by” is a valid – albeit empty – set).
Ignoring the incompetent troll (DNFTT, for Cthulhu’s sake), I’m not seeing that the BSA is really a private organization.
They have lots of summer camps in scenic outdoors areas. Many of these are in the national forests, and/or on lakes, or on beaches etc.. A lot of time when land is leased from the federal government, it is for 99 years.
Far as I can see, a lot of these are leased from the US Forest Service or BLM.
If the BSA is discriminatory and they are, seems likely the US government could and should revoke their leases or at least not renew them. IIRC, the federal government is prevented by law from discriminating against atheists and gays, that constitution thing.
I’m guessing, the current BSA wouldn’t care. The Mormon church is on record as saying that if the BSA drops it’s anti-gay policies, they will pull out and start their own youth outdoor group. Big loss IMO, but whatever.
What does ones voice have to do with pedophilia?
Especially odd as pedophiles succede via cultivating good relationships with their community and gaining positions of authority.
Such as scott master
Of course, the asshole scoutmaster who raped me was married, attended church regularly, prayed regularly, tithed fully, and was very active in the Mormon church. So tell me again that atheism is necessarily bad for scouting?
Mjudging by our troll maybee the scouts should focus on that Honesty idea
As a person recently in Scouting, I can say that there is often not much connection between the national and individual levels. That said, the organization MUST be coereced to institute equality.
Couple of alternatives to the Boy Scouts:
Camp Fire
“Camp Fire is unique because we are not an exclusive club. We have evolved to welcome everyone, regardless of race, gender, socioeconomic status, disability, sexual orientation or other aspect of diversity. We are inclusive and open to every person in each community we serve. We work to realize the dignity and worth of every individual and to eliminate human barriers based on all assumptions that prejudge individuals. In addition, our program standards are designed and implemented to reduce sex-role, racial and cultural stereotypes and to foster positive intercultural relationships. ”
Boys and Girls Clubs of America
Boys & Girls Clubs provide young people with:A safe place to spend time during non-school hours and the summer as an alternative to the streets or being home alone.
A chance to play, have fun, laugh and learn. Opportunities to build new skills that raise each child’s belief that he or she can succeed and receive recognition for personal accomplishments. Ongoing relationships with caring adults and connections to new friends in a positive environment, reinforcing a sense of belonging, personal accountability, civility and civic responsibility.Generation-changing programs that support a commitment to learning, positive values, healthy habits and high expectations for success as an adult.