I’ll confine myself to addressing just two points in his rebuttal.
-
He accuses me of strawmanning his argument by claiming that he’s taking a black and white view of anti-harassment policies — that they should be either do-nothing or full-weight-of-the-law. He now explains that that’s not the case, he endorses using all kinds of intermediate levels of enforcement.
Then I’m left wondering exactly what the point of his outrage was? That makes it sound as if he’s agreeing totally with what many of us are saying: we want these policies in place because they offer women recourse and support. Richard Carrier has very carefully laid out the intent and function of these policies. Perhaps Thunderf00t can read that and clarify whether he disagrees or not? Because his current posts try to have it both ways.
-
Speaking of strawmanning an argument, here’s a beautiful example.
IT WAS IN A BAR. I enjoyed it, she enjoyed it (she left a comment specifically saying so, just to remove all doubt (see MyLegMYCHOICE!)), AND I NEVER HAD TO CONSULT HER, NOR APPLY FOR PERMISSION FROM THE CONFERENCE, IN ORDERS SIGNED IN TRIPLICATE SENT IN, SENT BACK AND BURIED IN SOFT PEAT FOR THREE MONTHS AND RECYCLED AS FIRELIGHTERS etc etc. Indeed had I had to fill in the paperwork along with ‘permission to bite your leg in a horseplay photo’ form under conference interpersonal contact rule 144 b) 2, it would have probably kinda killed the moment, and neither I nor she would have got our mild thrills for the night. It’s boys n girls have fun in bars!
I said precisely the opposite. These are situations where I agree — nobody is saying you have to fill out forms to play, and it would be ridiculous to do so. However, it’s also problematic. He doesn’t feel he ever had to consult her? What?
I have heard this complaint many times. A woman goes to a bar at a meeting because she wants a drink, she wants to join in the conversation (because that’s where a lot of the informal talk goes on), and discovers that there are guys there with this attitude that groping is now permitted because the only reason that “girls” are there is to “have fun in bars”. Some women are there to flirt and enjoy a little horseplay…many are not.
This really is the problem. You need to interact with people first to discover if they’re fellow companions out in the spirit of a little physical fun (you don’t need to formally ask; I presume in this case there were cues to say it was OK), and you cannot assume that every person there is willing to have you fondle them. Especially at a skeptics/atheist conference, where people sign up to learn about a philosophical/social position.
Surprise. There are a lot of women who go to these meetings to be taken seriously and discuss serious topics, and have zero interest in having their legs grabbed. Not even in the bar.
Molly Rene has some choice words for people who confuse bars with brothels.
@pentatomid:
Don’t forget real political influence over some of the richest nations on the planet.
They would have to be fucking stupid not to notice the correlation between having nukes and NOT getting invaded/fucked with by the west.
No one wants them to have a bomb, but I don’t know how its okay for us to have one either. The US has been negligent in the use and TESTING of nukes even, causing sickness and death for american citizens as well as native people (in nevada, southern utah, and the bikini islands). That is nothing compared to the damages against citizens in japan from hiroshima and nagasaki. How do you think people from there would feel, hearing you say how untrustworthy other countries are with nuclear weapons? Is there any country that can always be trusted with nuclear bombs, or is it just a fantasy that makes you feel better?
The way you irrationally refuse to examine the actions of your own country using the same standards you apply to others should be a clue for you- everyone thinks they are the good guys and the other ones aren’t. You need to take the blinders off in order to understand the world that US foreign policy has created for everyone else in the world.
christian ideas about the environment and resources are really fucking up the world right now, for sure. I’ve had it up to here with people saying “god gave us dominion over everything, he wouldn’t let us run out before the rapture.”
So let me get this straight.
Western countries, for just about 50 years (i.e. post-colonialism, which was it’s own oppressive kettle of fish), have been running around the ME, propping up dictators who brutalized the people, empowered corporations to steal the greatest natural resource of the region, and either encouraged or turned a blind eye to human rights abuses.
Like many peoples in sucky situations, many Middle Easterners (aside: “Middle Eastern” is not synonymous with “Arab.” Also, Iran is not Arab. Like, at all.) turned to an extreme version of their religion – in this case Islam – because the extremists offered something other than acquiescence to a shitty situation.
The extremists proceeded to act like well, extremists, but also worked to deliver some basic goods and services to their constituency (for example, Hamas funds free day care and kindergarten in their territory inside Palestine), thus earning some loyalty, however grudging, from the moderates.
Conclusion: ZOMG THE MOOSLIMS ARE EBIL. ALSO, 9/11. KILL THEM ALL!
Um, what?
Want to decrease the power of the extremists? Stop giving them an angry population on a fucking platter.
None of which matters to the thousands of brown civilians we’ve killed over the course of our war on terror, nor those who survive them. Israel can’t even pretend to target civilians anymore, you reaaaally do not want to try to defend their government.
So is “Shut the fuck up, I’m trying to get to work”, you racist know nothing.
Israel makes fucking concentration camps for its citizens, while invoking the holocaust as justification. If it were still 1948, I’d maybe be concerned about them, but it’s not, and I really ain’t.
Also, please fucking tell me you are talking about the war with egypt, in which case you may want fucking read something about that war.
It’s extraordinarily difficult to be bigoted against white people as an aggregate, because white people face almost no systematic structures oriented against them, if any at all. You can fuck yourself though; what next, concern over ‘reverse racism’? There’s
You seriously want to talk Palestine. Do you know what Israel does to the palestinians, you fucking moron? Do you really think they’re as motivated by ‘jihaddist sentiment’ as they are by fucking “I WANT TO LIVE WITHOUT THREAT OF EXTERMINATION OR IMPRISONMENT BY MY GOVERNMENT”? Yeah, some palestinians have engaged in terrorist acts, but you really don’t understand the situation if you are talking about that being jihad the way you mean it (Though I’m sure that word has been used to discuss a struggle primarily motivated by self defense).
That’d be Bush the Lesser when he invaded Iraq on flimsy pretenses, as well as Obama’s undeclared wars via drone bombings. Also, the american public at large. You do realize we’ve had asswipes who want to just wipe the region off the map entirely, right? Fuck, you asswipe, I had kids at my school singing “Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iraq”, to the tune of “Barbara Ann”.
Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iraq…. not to mention this scaremongering you’re doing over iran. But hey, USians and the US never hates country. Not like that brown arab world. That’s why when we call them an existential threat, it’s okay.
You mean after it replaces the current government in power with one sympathetic to its interests, regardless of whether it was legitimately elected or not? I shed no tears over the Nazis or the Nationalists being replaced, but you are grossly misrepresenting what happened there in both cases. And I wouldn’t really call either Japan or Germany unoccupied (though the US shared Germany with 3 other nations). And You’re aware the US wrote the Japanese constitution, right?
Also, that is completely normal. Actual conquest doesn’t drive that many of the wars in the previous century, so it’s not usually the done thing for a war. Fuck, even Japan didn’t DoW the US to conquer it; it DoW’d the US to force them to break their Iron embargo.
Like how Egypt just wanted the Sinai peninsula, because that was all it had a legitimate claim to? Not that I really care who owns Sinai, but were you not counting them? What about Turkey, who allied with Israel for decades? Do they count? Ooo, or Indonesia and Malaysia, whom care considerably less about Israel than any of us do. Fuckwit.
…Those were done by 5 different groups with 6 different agendas, none of which were by a state, and you want to seriously raise the proposal to go to war? What do you think war fucking is? And how do you seriously hold that up to several times the deaths of civilians inflicted by the US government?
It’s easy; you’re a racist idiot.
I think the USA, Israel, and modern democracies in general should be expected to hold themselves to a slightly higher standard than “a little bit better than terrorists.”.
This argument is completely irrelevant because, you know, there’s more than one way of preventing Iran from getting nukes.
Oh, my kingdom for an edit button; 2 seconds after I post the last one, I realize what a fucking coup this point would be for you.
You do realize that the ‘arab world’, to the extent it hates the US, is specifically targetting the people who project imperial power onto them. The US hates a sizable portion of the population of two continents for living in close proximity to people it decided to fuck with, and you think this is a point against muslims, and not the USA.
I mean, that’s pretending that the US doesn’t hate countries, which is fucking laughable…
Fuck, I really am leaving you too much room to walk on this “The USA doesn’t ahte countries” point.
http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=40:qslap-a-japq&catid=35:propaganda-index&Itemid=35
http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=35%3Apropaganda-index&id=844%3Ahow-war-bonds-win-wars&Itemid=35
http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=35%3Apropaganda-index&id=845%3Aunspeakably-awesome-or-unspeakably-offensive&Itemid=35
http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=35%3Apropaganda-index&id=847%3Adr-suess-war-propaganda&Itemid=35
http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&catid=35%3Apropaganda-index&id=852%3Aswat-the-japs&Itemid=35
This is shit to children. It does not get better from here.
I think we should launch preemptive drone strikes against stevor and anyone who talks like him before they terrorize us any more with this profound ignorance and bloodthirsty racism. It would be self defense.
Wait… Israel is only defending innocent people…
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Oh come on, StevoR, how ignorant are you exactly. You might wanna look into the reality of the situation a bit. Israel is not the defender of the innocent. Israel is an agressor. It just so happens that the US are on its side.
And, yeah, Iran wants nukes, which isn’t exactly a thought I’m comfortable with either. But ‘Iran’ does not equal ‘muslims’ or ‘the arab world’.
Fuck, you’re dense.
Jesus fuck, Iran is not an Arab country.
Arab is an ethnicity. While there are Arabs living in Iran, they are a minority. The majority of Iranians are ethnically Persian.
FWIW, Arabs are also a minority of Muslims. Also, not all Arabs are Muslim. A significant number are Christian, Druze, Baha’i, and (yes) Jewish.
These fun facts are brought to you by shit that I learned in 30 seconds on Wikipedia.
While you are a moron, Stevor, getting such basic facts wrong makes you look like even more of a moron.
@Rutee
I heard a warning that Superdickery potentially hosts malware. Is it possible to mirror images elsewhere?
@skeptifem – 28 June 2012 at 10:37 am :
Secular and sorta rational vs Jihadist and not.
Big difference.
Or how about supporting crazy terrorists versus fighting those terrorists?
Or how about too late now to prevent the USA getting The Bomb versus not too late yet to stop Iran getting it?
Bhutan maybe?
Or perhaps Luxemborg or San Marino?
Assume for the sake of argument that irrational humans generally can’t be trusted with The Bomb.
Surely the corollary to that then is that is that if any humans have to have The Bomb then the fewer the better and the more pro-rationality the better?
My country is Australia. Yes, I’m a patriot. No I don’t think we’re perfect. Yeah, bias and favouring your own side esp. over those who want you dead is part of the human condition.
But does that mean you think Australia and Iran are morally equivalent? Really? You’d say a democracy and a totalitarian Islamic dictatorship should be treated as ethically identical ignoring the rather pertinant fact that that ain’t so? Sheesh!
Has it occurred to you that you might be wearing some blinders of your own? Anti-American or more broadly anti-western and maybe even Judeaophobic / Anti-Semitic ones mayhaps?
Ask yourself -would ourather, on average be living in a Werstern land or a non-Westernesp. islamic one?
@Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain – 28 June 2012 at 1:03 pm :
Ohhh-kaay, so the fact that Hamas funds kindergartens is supposed to outweigh the fact that their goal is genocide against the Jewish State? Plus the fact they are terrorists who keep firing rockets at people and committing appalling acts of murder and barbarism and, did I mention, their whole raison d’etre is exterminating another people from the planet entirely? Really?
I don’t think so.
Too late. The Jihadists already hate us and are deciated to slaughtering us all.
What do we do about it? Try to appease them? Or fight back?
Want o convert toIslam or get killed?
Or would you rather live as a reasonable free human being?
I opt for the latter. You?
@ruteekatreya – 28th June 2012 at 1:30 pm :
Well first off that first part is a straight out Israelophobic lie.
Secondly, fuck yeah! I’d fucken well infinitely prefer to argue the case for Israel than the case for Hamas and Hizbollah and the PLO! (or ‘A’ same diff.)
Guess you disagree and would prefer to argue for the genocide against the Jewish State. What then does that make you and whose company are you keeping? You proud of that?
Yeah, I am going there. Also fuck you with a dead and rotting and especially spiky porcupine sideways you anti-Israeli, fucking Judaeophobic bigot.
So “trying to work” = exactly “Death to Israel / USA!”
To you. Rii-iight.
Yeah those two sentences have exactly the same kind of meaning. (Eyeroll.) Oh wait, newsflash to the bigot, NO they fucken don’t. One is calling for mass genocide, the other isn’t. You can’t tell the difference? Yet you somehow claim *I’m* a bad person! Whoah!
StevoR:
Bah.
The Jihadists have seen what happened in Iraq and in Afghanistan.
They can niggle, but have no hope whatsoever of winning by force of arms.
You really are naive; all the posturing is for political gain — enemies are handy things.
Real worry, that! ;)
[meta]
StevoR to ruteekatreya:
You sink to rhetorical depths so blithely yet so foolishly!
I see islamophobic paranoid bigoted fuckwit can’t shut the fuck up. All it does is show its irrational paranoia, and changes nobodies mind. Because it is lacking a rational mind. It may as well STFU on the topic of Islam. Nobody here will follow its paranoid ravings, merely mock them.
Continued – @ruteek the Judaeophobe – 28th June 2012 at 1:30 pm :
Oh what a surprise – you’re an anti-Semite. Never would ghave guessed. /sarcasm
Also do you ever stop lying and engage with reality?
Israeli citizens live in concentartion camps? Ya reckon?
Funny, how the Israeli citizens keep voting for a government that does thatand I guess the Israeli Prime Minister and President being Israeli citizens must live there too, huh? Weird that they’d do that to ’emselves donchya reckon?
Or, hang on, do you mean that Hamas and their fellow Jihadists that y’know govern themselves since the Israeli withdrawal from that area face the consequences for their terrorism and are kept out so they don’t do, y’know, all those homicide-suicide bombings aginst unarmed innocent people that they’d like to do? Plus are under a few econmic sanctions as is reasonable and foreseeable as penalties for their avowed and practiced desire to wipe a whole nation of people off the planet?
Funny how Israel is supposedly the most evil nation evah in the world yet it doesnt, oh I dunno, use say a daisy cutter bomb or two and wipe Hamas from the planet like they wish to wipe Isreal off eh?
Isn’t it odd too how Israel keeps getting singled out for “special treatment” (Gee where have Jews heard that before?) whilst Hamas can violate all the laws and Geneva conventions and basic ideas of human(e)ity it wants and these go unremarked let alone punished or criticised?
War with Egypt? Which war?
The one where Israel fought back when it was attacked in 1848 or 18956 or 1973?
In a sentence, ruteekatreya, what is the main cause of all the Arab-Israeli wars?
Could it just be because, *gasp, shock, horror!*, the Jewish people want to live in their traditional historical homeland and the Arabs won’t let them even fucking exist in a tiny fragment of their former lands in peace?!
Oh and y’know how that last war ended and theprice Anwar Sadat paid for trying to recognise reality and make even a very cold peace with teh evbull Jooooz? Know what the Muslim Brotherhood, who are now back in power there, there did to him for that?
How ignorant are you again?
StevoR, just how dishonest were you planning on getting here?
@ Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls :
So Judaeophobia is the rule here is it? Great. Ever wonder if you’re relly on the right side here or would you rather just prefer to join the chorus of support for Hamas? Because they’re such nice people with such good ideas aren’t they?
/sarcasm.
…without asking for permission from the people who were already living there. Small little detail you left out there.
@pentatomid -29 June 2012 at 5:59 am :
.. And that would be supposedly “dishonest” because .. well how exactly?
@ Deen – 29th June 2012 at 6:02 am
Yeah, that’d be why Mark Twain among others reported virtually no one was living there before the first Aliyah in the 18th centuiry or thereabouts, riiight?
And I guess there never were any jewish communities living in the region back when the Ottoman Empire temporarily ruled that as a “syrian” province and I guess you are a fucking expert on the history of that region and the Jewish people generally. Oh wait. Maybe not.
I apologize that I mistook Iran for an Arab country in my earlier post, mostly from ignorance.
Also I apologize StevoR that I never got to the post, I basically crashed when I got home, it was a long day.
Yawn, time for quarantine to TZT for StevoR. It has no place in regular rational society.
Aww, gee thanks Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls (29th June 2012 at 6:15 am) I’m fond of you too. (eyeroll.)
Your precise objection and rebuttal of my case then is ..what again?
BTW. Y’know I agree with (I presume) most of your positions on most other issues y’know, dontchyah?
I’m not *that* unlike you many ways I think ‘cept I’m on the Philo-Semitic side of that divide.
@StevoR – 29 June 2012 at 6:09 am
@Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort – 29 June 2012 at 6:13 am :
No worries.
I know I’m not perfect myself and am never claiming to be.
Aaarrrrgh! Fucken typos. This :
was meant to be this :
The one where Israel fought back when it was attacked in 1948 or 1956 or 1973?
As I’d hope would be obvious.
(But then there’s been such astounding ignorance of history displayed here that ..yikes, who knows.)
Mindless paranoid islamophobic bigot should be removed from civilized society. It isn’t civilized, but rather a deranged fool. To the TZT with it. Separate it from rational people who don’t need to listen to its fuckwitted ravings…
@StevoR:
I remember the war of 18956. Brutal war. Lots of lasers and robots.
No, I’m not an expert – but then again, if you considered that a requirement for participating in this discussion, you wouldn’t be here.
And Mark Twain is relevant because nothing changed between 1867 and 1948.</sarcasm>
No. Just as I’m not a racist for my beefs with the governments in Iran, or for that matter, Japan, Indonesia, IReland… some of us can remain more or less in reality when we criticize a government.
And it is a fact that Israel is invoking holocaust imagery to justify its actions while maintaining concentration camps. It’s shitty, but you are taking issue with the wrong person here. As usual.
Aya? I want Israel to recognize the rights of the Palestinians, and to treat them as equals. No less; there is more, but it pertains to other issues, such as sexism, so they are not germane to the conversation. It is telling that you think the only option is for one side to genocide the other, though. In fact, you apparently can’t conceive of any goal except that. That’s… interesting. And lest you feel this can be said honestly by you, you have made it very clear that you are uncritical in your support of Israel.
The Palestinian people have as much a right to be israeli citizens as the jews do… and putting aside that moral claim, many, if not most of them, actually are.
Not really. White people put white people in power in the USA, and those white people in power happily put Native Americans, and then Japanese-descended Americans, in concentration camps. In fact, it’s a pretty well known practice, found in quite a few places across the world. That doesn’t change that it is horrid and needs to fucking end.
Really. You’d argue in favor of the folks succeeding at massive oppression over the folks who would enact it if they had power. Interesting. As it happens, I neither have to support Hamas, nor the Israeli government, so I don’t. Oh, but let me guess: PICK A SIDE, WE’RE AT WAR.
Are you illiterate? I only said they were an evil government. I don’t know or particularly care who is the most evil.
…With a single bomb. You’re going to end an underground insurgence with a single bomb. You really don’t understand what you’re talking about, do you? Also, do you really think the ISraelis do not use bombs and other explosives on civilian and ‘terrorist’ targets amongst the palestinians? Because I’ve got a bridge to sell you if you do.
Really? Cause I thought I had issues with the governments France, Japan, China, Korea, Turkey, the USA, Indonesia, Malaysia, India, Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan, Denmark, Sweden…
In fact, you’re the one who is making this entirely about Israel. I devoted considerably more space to criticizing the USA. Perhaps you think Israel will be easier to defend.
Well, they are rebels against a government that doesn’t represent them (with a host of both legitimate and illegitimate grievances to match), and they aren’t signatories to the geneva convention, so literally speaking, this is actually true, but getting to what you are trying to say…
Is Hamas treated like saints? Aside from its own propaganda channels, does anyone act like Hamas is without fault? That it does nothing wrong? No. And yes, they are still terrorists, even if they do things like provide food and basic services for some of their populace as they can. They face mass criticism, always. But the State of Israel’s crimes are whitewashed, and ignored, for a host of reasons. You are not merely criticizing Hamas; you are trying to claim that there is nothing they can legitimately do, and despite being a pacifist, I so mistrust it when the standards of pacifism are held much more strictly against the weak; especially by people who do not hold the strong to those same pacifistic standards. Triply so when the marginalized never professed to be pacifists.
No, although Hamas does quite a few horrible things, I think I will leave that to others, and focus on the golden cow of the region.
Are you having difficulty finding critics of Hamas?
Once again, the racist fool confuses all middle eastern brown people with arabs. Egyptian: Also an ethnicity, you lackwit. And the only sentence that can possibly be true for this is Klausewitz canard of “A continuation of diplomacy by other means”, because Israel’s wars have been fought for different reasons.
I guess it could be. It, you know, isn’t, but it could be, in much the same sense that there could be a pink unicorn in my bathroom. Again, Egypt’s recent war had a specific goal, with a fair amount of legitimacy behind it, for one.
And again, you are ignoring that the Turks happily allied for decades… Not that turkish people are arabs either, but you’re the moron who confuses all middle eastern brown people with arabs, so I figured I’d talk down at your level.
Lemme get this straight; you think the Muslim Brotherhood assassinated Saddam and took power… and then are back in power after overthrowing the regime that directly succeeded Sadat. Really now. And you think I am the ignorant one. That’s pretty hilarious.
Seriously, the Muslim Brotherhood’s appointed a christian and a woman into positions of high power already, and you’re going to talk to me about religious fundamentalists and ignorance.
Suppose you’re right; what the hell do I care that powerless people halfway across the planet want me dead, when people right here want me dead and are considerably more likely to actually be able to do it?
Secular? Do you not read this blog, to see the huge threats that comes under, daily, in the united states?
Do you not understand that this is not an argument to give Iran the bomb, but rather is one to take it from the current nuclear holders? That attention is being called to the fact that you disproportionately hold this over a particular kind of person, while caring nothing about white people who have the bomb?
You were mis-ID’d as a US citizen, so to cut to the chase, no, I would argue that the US government has traits that could definitely be construed as worse, if one were in a mood to be ranking evil powers, because the US government oppresses and murders huge numbers of people outside its own borders as well as amongst its own citizenry; usually through proxy, but not always.
Actually, I should say “civilian and terrorist targets”. “terrorist and ‘terrorist’ targets” was the original construction, but it got an incomplete rewrite. My bad.
Part III @ruteekatreya – 28th of June 2012 at 1:30 pm :
Well, congrats, then, I guess, becuase you seem to manage to achieve that bigotry quite well.
IF managing a “new” form of bigotry is something to be proud of that is. (I seem to see a lot of echoes of a very old form of bigotry in your postings FWIW.)
Tries to protect itself from their never-ending attempts to de-legitimise and destroy it?
Funnily enough, yes I do.
Of course, the fact that their government whether Hamas or the Fatah is dictatorial and brutal and each “palestinian” side is at war with the other seems to have passed Ruteek by.
Also the fact that if the “Palestinians” had merely wanted their own state, well, they’ve passed up a shit-tonne of opportunities to gain just that in every fucking peace talk from before 1948 up till today seems to have passed well over Ruteek’s head too. Arafat was once offered almost everything he wanted back in the Clinton days but he walked away from it instead. Because it was only 95% not 100% of his demands.
And the Arabs had chosen to accept the 1947 UN ruling they’d have 45% of modern Israel now even though the former Mandate had already been divided two-thirds in their favour even earlier. (Hence Jordan.)
So US President George W. Bush specifically called for “oceans of blood” did he, ya think, liar? Bullshit.
Show me the exact speech and exact quote where he said that. Factcheck : He never did.
Oh, thanks. It is.
Skin colour? I don’t give a damn.
The fact they’re trying to fucking kill us? Yep, that counts.
Israel’s existence is under threat. That’s what they think and they’d know. Its not like Jews haven’t heard that sort of rhetoric before and learnt to take it seriously.
I’m aware of that. You think they did a bad job or the wrong thing?
You’d call Japan and Germany occupied right now? Are you fucking nuts?!
BZZZZTT. History FAIL. Egypt wasn’t just after the Sinai in 1948 and 1956 and 1967 and 1973. They wanted Israel and all its people dead.
Shithead.
So some Muslims nations are worse than others? Well that’s a fucking surprise. Oh wait it isn’t.
Maybe you should ask why *any* Islamic states give a damn whether or not another people (like, oh, say the Jews) have a nation of their own?
What an unappetising word salad. What?
Okay, I hold that Islamist Jihadist states that want to kill us be prevented from doing so. Whatever we have to do to achieve that. Your objection to that is ..?
Skin colour doesn’t bother me in the slightest.
People seeking to murder me and destroy our way of life? Them I’ve got a problem with.
That ain’t racism, you ignorami.
Because of course the USA has no effect on the UN and didn’t, oh I dunno, lead the whole fucking thing. Oh wait it did. Also I’m talking Western which is a lot more than just the United States. You missed that? I recommend you read things twice or thrice next time and slowly at that. May help you.
I disagree. You rather we didn’t? Rather we’d let Saddam keep Kuwait? You think it wasn’t just to free Kuwait from Iraqi occupation? You fucking moron.
You think its okay for Argentina to go in and forcably occupy someone else’s homes? I don’t. Yes I know where the Falklands are and who their people want to have in charge. Clearly you don’t.
Which I guess would make you a Stalinist or Leninist? Not serious? Fuuuuuck! You really do NOT have a fucking clue do you?
I grew up during that. Fucking hell was it *ever* serious! I’m glad capitalism & the USA won too.
The Soviet Union? Well, fucking hell, you sure need to do some research there you ignorant sack of feces. Shit for brains Ruteek, the USA and fascists? Thjsoe would be opposites, fuckhead.
What the fuck is the deal with those scare quotes around Palestinians?
Also, are you frothing in you mouth when you type these rants, StevoR?
@ the ignormaus Ruteek :
Pointless you say? Take a look at South Korea!
Done that? Right? Now take a look at North Korea.
Which nation would you rather be a citizen of? Where do you think people generally are better off?
Now would it have been better if everyone in South Korea was living as they are in North Korea?
Ye-fucking-non-existent-gods Ruteek! Are you for fucking real? Can a person really be as fucking stupid as you seem to appear!?
Versus the way Islamists treat women, apostates, atheists and cartoonists and, oh yes, Jews? A litle perspective please?
I’ve never said the West is perfect. Is it Light Years or at least Astronomical Units ahead of the alternatives though? Fuck yeah!
You’d rather be a gay or non-hetero-normative non-Muslim in a Muslim nation then would you? Say a left-handed, Jewish , disabled lesbian in Talibasn Afghanistan maybe?
Yes. The Western world gives more and better opportunities for more people and groups of people than any other culture in history ever. You disagree? Ok. Your alternative then?
Reading FAIL on your part Ruteek. I’m defending Westerb civilisation which includes the USA, Canada, Australia, Japan New Zealand-Aeotearoa and, yes, Germany too.
Yes x 2.
Japan is Western and, yes, the terms Western and Free World are (still) synomonmous. You might want to contemplate what makes that so.
Well that’s a major non-sequiteur on your part methinks.
You think Jihadist violence is the right path? Fuck you!
You don’t? Then fucking well say so and stop making excuses for it.
People born into a Muslim society are intrinisically unlucky and it would be better for them if they weren’t? Well, we agree on that at least!
On the grounds that Iran has already sponsored and currently sponsors Jihadist terrorism globally and Israel doesn’t.
On the grounds that the fundamentalists are a fringe in Israel and yet are governing Iran.
On the grounds that Iran wants to strike agressively first whilst Israel would only use its nukes as a last defensive resort.
Those grounds.
@pj – 29th of June 2012 at 8:07 am :
It may have something to do with the fact that there was no such thing as “palestinianuntil the 1970s when Cairo-born Jihadist Yasser Arafat created thenotion as an excuse to attack Israel.
Nope. I’m drinking the odd beer as I do and making sure none comes out again.
If you’re now going toaccuse me of being an alcoholic then I plead guilty as charged and will merely point out that I can still argue better drunk than some can argue sober!
Israel or the US killing them for standing too close to an alleged terrorist isn’t going to help those gay Muslims at all.
Heh if anyone wonders why brown people don’t all rush to the skeptic/atheist meetings one needs to look no further than how tolerant people are of SteveoR’s view.
Almost makes me wish there was a hell for Hitchen’s to rot in; lending credibility to the dehumanization of millions. Hitchen’s may have done many fine things in his career, but it’s tainted for me due to his prominent role as the Skeptic Goebbels
Swell!
StevoR is still displaying his bigotry I see.
If information was liable to change his ways he would do well to read “the lessons of terror” by Caleb Carr. He’s a crime writer and I am not a historian so I can’t vouch for correctness- but the perspectives are interesting.
Of course, he won’t do this. It’s far more fun to be a howling bigot based on only Hitch’ worse moments.
Funny how paranoid bigots think we are interested in sharing their paranoia and bigotry. We aren’t, as they never have a cogent point. Just “I’m so scared I wet my pants”, and “I hate X, kill-kill-kill”.
StevoR could also just find any Arab American or American Muslim or Middle East Peace Coalition and talk to the people there to see what Muslims/Arabs/Persians/Turks are like. They’re all over on at least the East Coast Campus’s and have facebook/web pages.
Oh and BTW STevoR, that “Jewish Homeland”. Yeah find me evidence of ownership outside the Bible?
Hilarity of Atheists using the fucking Abrahamic Myths to support their position.
Though even if there was firm ownership, they had about as much right to claim the land as the Irish due to reclaim the Isle of Britain. And not even half the claim that the American Indians have to evict two fucking continents full of people.
@ “We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective” -29th of June 2012 at 8:31 am :
Okay.
First : StevoR – one ‘e’ not two.
Second : I do NOT give a flying fuck about skin colour.
Black, brown, white, yellow, red, grey, pibnk-with-effing-polka–dots who gives a shit?
I treat people equally and I’ll treat people kindly and politely, whatever the colour of their skin, ‘k?
Whether those here believe that or not, that’s reality, that’s me.
So .. tolerance .. okay. You’re accusing me of intolerance?
Why?
What am I intolerant to? Lies? Stupidity? Anti-Semites? Yep. Proud of that. You are happy to swallow lies and anti-Semitic bile? Really?
What else?
You’re a genocide promoter. You’re not tolerant. No one here is an anti-semite. As someone who had family in the fucking Holocaust I am pissed off beyond belief to see assholes like you wrap your self in their corpses to justify further violence. You don’t give two shits about jews or anyone you disgusting little ogre.
@ Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls – 29th of June 2012 at 8:38 am :
{Comic shop guy voice} Worst msireadinmg of whatbwa sactuiallyn said ever! {/Comic shop guy voice.}
@StevoR
Your drinking habits are not for me to police. That you even thought I’d “accuse you of being alcoholic” tells something about your mindset though. Paranoia.
Durnnit! Make that :
Worst misreading of what was actually said ever!
@We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective” – 29 June 2012 at 8:46 am :
Citation fucking well required!
Ditto.
Oh what did you miss Steve? Did you miss that someone might be fucking offended that you use anti-semitism and holocaust scare to defend violence?
This is fucking well established.
Oh I dunno….How about the fact that you equate criticism of Israeli policy as fucking antisemitism? That’s pretty damn intolerant.
@Ace of Sevens – 29th of June 2012 at 8:21 am :
So, um, you see a terrorist you step away and keep well clear of them – d’uh!
YOU ARE A FUCKING IDIOT.
You know what “close to a terrorist” is defined as to some in the Israeli military? THE ENTIRE FUCKING NATION OF LEBANON
@”We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective” – 29th of June 2012 at 8:55 am :
OF course you dont’ you don’t understand fuckign anyhing.
No one is aruging aginst Israli’s right to defend itself. It’s fucking over everyone else and being a dick.
YOURE A FUCKIGN IDIOT
UGH i’m so mad I can’t see straight.
@Ing :
Or perhaps, maybe just the parts where fucking Hezbollah are fucking firing rockets at us maybe?
StevoR
FFS THEY STRUCK CENTRAL LEBANON WHEN HEZBOLLAH WAS LIMITED TO THE SOUTH YOU FUCKING IDIOT. YOU KNOW NOTHING. NOTHING
@Ing :
Is it?
Not as I see it.
@StevoR
Oh I’m sorry that’s a great fucking rebuttal!
“I’ve decided that’s how it is so that’s how I see it”
Fucking idiot.
Please just kill yourself and do everyone a favor
???
@Ing :
Obviously I’d disagree with that statement.
Syria, y’know that place where Basher Al Assad has been massacring his own people has been pulling the strings in Lebanon for fucking ever. (Metaphorically.)
I don’t know.
But the Israeli Defence Forces?
They do.
So I’m going to back them and what they do because they do fucking know.
Defending Israel is their job. They say they have to hit X I’ll take their word for it. You wouldn’t?
Dafuq?!
Cupcake, I was pointing out how they gain the support of people in the territories they control. I do not support terrorism. Against anyone, by anyone.
By the way, fuck you and your assertion that living in Hamas-occupied territory = supporting Hamas = member of Hamas = deserves to die.
Seriously, WTF?
You are a racist. I really don’t see any way around this.
@ Ing :
You really think I’d take that particular piece of advice?
Dunno what’s worse. That you tghink I wuld or wouldn’t.
I won’t.
You are a fucking idiot.
Oh btw, how did that adventure in Lebanon end? Oh right. A TOTAL FUCKING FAILURE. They killed a while lot of people, destroyed infrastructure, and achieved NONE OF THEIR GOALS.
You really should. You support terrorists after all.
And there you have it, the authoritarian mindset, enabling everything from genocide to privatised healthcare since we crawled down from the trees.
@ Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain :
Since when has belief in a certain religion equalled race?!?
Good. Remember that okay.
Most of them do. Support Hamas and the other.
Here’s a tip for those who don’t – leave.
Pretty sure Israel will let them emigrate if they choose to.
StevoR
You are a monster.
@ Ing : *I* support terrorists??
What the Fuck!
How?
Why?
Are you for fucking real??!
Hey StevoR, they say that you have to be baptised, I wouldn’t take their word for it, would you?
@ Ing : No I’m not a monster.
A flawed drunk human maybe.
A monster? No.
I could never, NEVER, do what hamas and Islamic Jihad and the other fucking terrorists try to do every fucken day.
Yeah I’m just going to block StevoR and presume all his comments are
FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP.
He’s a fucking Nazi. And the fact that assholes like him wrap themselves up in the holocaust to deflect criticism is the worst perversion of all. A perfect shit cherry to put on the Sunday of humanity’s utter depravity and obliviousness.
@ FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος’s spellchecker) :
Hey StevoR, they say that you have to be baptised, I wouldn’t take their word for it, would you?
What the fuck has that got to do with anything?
IDF vs priests – two very fucking different groups.
@ Ing : Well I’m not.
Do what what you want, I can’ t stop you and would’nt try to.
FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP
What a fucking shitweasel.
Hey StevoR, they say that vaccination causes autism, I wouldn’t take their word for it. Would you?
Only because you’re not Arabs, obviously.
Remember everyone, everyone here EXCEPT StevoR is antisemitic. EVERYONE just doesn’t understand the situation! Fuckers gotta die! It’s not personal but for our existence they have to be destroyed.
Well, you can thell the difference between two groups, I guess that’s a start.
How about this: why do you believe the IDF and not the priests?
@ FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος’s spellchecker) 29th of June 2012 at 9:30 am :
Because the IDF have gathered current intelligence whereas the priests are quoting from a stone age book of mythology.
@ Ing – 29th June 2012 at 9:29 am :
No, not *everyone* is Anti-Semitic.
Too many people in this world including some posting here on FTB, however are.
If someone singles out the Jewish people or Israel for what seems a disproportionate amount of negative attention and unfair criticism well, chances are .. they are.
StevoR, I don’t know what it is about Muslims that sends you into an irrational homicidal rage. Nor do I understand why you love war and violence so much.
Strangely enough, the fact that someone is criticizing Israel’s military policies does not imply that they support Hamas. And it doesn’t make them an anti-Semite, either. You’re just trying to distract attention from the weakness of your position by flinging insults at people.
Right.
Firstly:
Emigrate to where?
Secondly:
Emigrate how? Establish themselves with what money?
Thirdly:
Because the solution to Israels problems is the removal of all Palestinian people?
Congratulations, Cupcake! You just showed your hand.
Because everyone who doesn’t leave their home, or can’t leave, or won’t leave, deserves whatever they get? You’re a pathetic excuse for a human being, StevoR.
Uh huh, and you know that this intelligence is credible and accurate, how exactly? And you know they’re acting on intelligence rather than political pressure, how exactly?
Probably a bit mean to point out to StevoR that the most recent act of politically-motivated terrorism in Australia was carried out by an Australian-Israeli citizen…
StevOR, we all know you hate “Jihadist Terrorist Muslims” (who are the only true Muslims) and want to pre-emptively kill them all right now. We know you think it is honest self-defense to murder someone who hates you.
We really do get it.
So shut up about it now. Go on another tirade about justified slaughter of all those faceless, nameless, unidentifiable Evil Moooslems, and I’ll decide that your hate makes you too scary to tolerate. Don’t worry, I won’t send a drone to your house; I’ll just ban your pasty ass.
Where ‘most of them’ == ‘live in Gaza’ and ‘the other’ == ‘deserve to die’? Most of the people in Gaza, you say, deserve to die?
Yikes. Evil.
@Esteleth, Raging Dyke of Fuck Mountain – 29th of June 2012 at 9:46 am :
Wherever they want to. Their choice.
Their own. Got money to build rockets? Then you got money you can use to emigrate instead.
I’m sure if they asked nicley they’d get get the funds they need.
You’re assuming there was a legitimate “palestinian” people
in the first place.
Even if there was, are you saying that’s wrong?
How many Muslim nations are there on this planet? You got any idea? Plenty and then some.
There is only one Jewish state and it is tiny.
Can you really, really begrudge them that one?
I cannot begrudge the existence of Israel. I can begrudge that it is a Jewish state, a theocratic apartheid state.
How many other nations are there…would you begrudge the Nazi’s one German state?
@PZ Myers – 29 June 2012 at 10:02 am :
Okay. Just seen that. Please don’t ban me.
Fuck it, I have to go to bed. I’m going to spell it out for you StevoR because you’re a fucking simpleton: skepticism, you’re doing it wrong.
In the case of any organisation that keeps secrets there is no way to confirm if their actions are necessary because we don’t have access to their intelligence. Makes sense doesn’t it? But here’s the kicker: only an authoritarian idiot would accept without question the actions of such an organisation.
Just as extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, so too do extraordinary actions require extraordinary evidence to justify them. And make no mistake about it, the oppressive actions of the IDF are extraordinary, and they in no way have met the burden of proof when it comes to justifying them. Just as the priests haven’t met their burden of proof, just as the anti-vaxers haven’t met their burden of proof.
Now go get fitted out with your snappy uniform you pathetic little quisling. Polish those boots and practice standing to attention and maybe they’ll let you pull the trigger. Might want to have a quick wank before though, stains on your trousers will get you under report.
<They say they have to hit X I’ll take their word for it. You wouldn’t?
The US government under President GHW Bush said that the US had to invade Iraq because of weapons of mass destruction.
The fact that a government, or an army, says that military action is needed is not evidence that military action is needed.
Blockquote fail, and a reminder to preview at 95.
Your willingness to sacrifice others for your ideals is noted. Somehow I doubt you’d give the same confidence if they said you needed to be taken out.
Do you know when the Chinese entered the fucking war? Seriously, now, read along. I said it was pointless because our intervention is the direct catalyst for hte Chinese one, thus making the intervention a complete waste in addition to unjustified.
The oppressive fascist in South Korea eventually got kicked out. By Koreans. Not Meriken. Are you a diviner? No? Did you see that coming in exacting detail in 1950? No? Could you? No? Well then! Guess it doesn’t fucking matter which is less oppressive now; The facts that were available did not make backing South Korea any more palatable than backing North Korea, except that South Korea wasn’t a communist state (But it was run by a fascist. The US made this decision a LOT)
What systematic oppression of white people did I strengthen? No no, go tell me; I’ll wait. Hint: I said ‘extraordinary difficult’ because you actually have to live in a country that does actually disadvantage white people to have a prayer of establishing this. There aren’t a lot of those, and I’m kind of assuming without evidence one actually exists; white people tend to get far more credit and consideration than even people who run the country. But go on.
Yeah like I said, roughly the same claim the Irish have over Britain.
The problem is that the justification for the state and that land is the Bible…which relies on the fact that either GOD GRANTED THE LAND, or (accepting the narrative given in the Bible) the ancestors of the Jews brutalized and genocide the other populations of the land. Neither seems to be a good standard for ownership to me. The land is not innately Jewish. The right thing to do is to acknowledge that other people live(d) there and that they do have a right to be treated as equal citizens. You cannot just dismiss them as lesser citizens or relocate them for the living space because of a pre-Roman claim to land. If that were the standard we should gladly turn control of the America’s back over to the original people, who have a much clearer claim. Their displacement was more recent, and the current occupying power is the same one that displaced them.
Again I’m FOR Israel…but it should not be an apartheid state nor should we pretend that it was a no-brainer that the original settlers had a claim to seize land that was currently being occupied and owned.
Also, now granted my friend who is the expert on this is Arab so possible bias, but according to him the archeology does not justify ownership of the current territory of Israel. It grants a portion of it but not the modern borders.
Though Rutee, if you want to discuss Hitch more, http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/06/25/misogynists-can-think-women-are-tasty-while-not-recognizing-that-they-are-human-beings/comment-page-2/#comment-380593 has a fan boi
I think I burned all the free time I want to spend on stupid people already. I kind of have work to do (I have what is arguably the best job) and I would like to play Uncharted Waters. We’ll see.
I have no fucking clue and tbh I don’t really care. I’d be fucking amazed if the borders matched up, but it does seem ultimately irrelevant.
Rutteekatreya: I already have you nominated for a Mollie for your engagement with StevoR on this thread. Solid stuff, well said. One tiny twitch, when you mentioned Iran’s gender realignment strategy, and I’m trying to pin down the BBC Radio 4 programme it was on a couple of weeks ago: a gay Iranian interviewee wearily quoted the official Iranian line that there are no gay Iranians, and said that the relative ease in Iran for gender realignment procedure is that country’s response to homosexuality. I.E.: it’s more societally necessary to have MTF Iranians than gay Iranians. To be more specific, in Iran if you want to shag men, you need a sex-change. Women don’t appear to show up on this radar at all. I will try to find a link, and put it up here, but I just wanted to suggest that that one thing might not be a useful argumental point.
Rest of your argument: stonking. Thank you.
Yeah, I know. It’s their ‘cure’ for homosexuality. It’s not that they did an excellent job above and beyond the call of duty, it’s that given that the west treats sexuality as somehow complicating gender transition, I figured it worked out to about even. Westerners like to pretend they’re the m ost tolerant people on the planet, and like to forget about everyone that makes this inconvenient; in that context, I figured “trans-hating, gay accepters*” works out about evenly to “Gay-hating trans accepters*”.
*For grudging values of ‘acceptance’ that don’t really include proper acceptance, but in most cases, bare toleration.
PZ…I think I may have to leave this blog…I love you man. But creationist tuck tail and block. You need to apologize. You need to apologize now. It’s not your position that is so unacceptable…it is your behavior. You need to reinstate your colleague. You need to apologize. You need to do it now. Your intellectual integrity is at stake.
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
Huh.
Drunk posting, maybe?
Huh? WTF?
yeah…no.
Wait. I don’t follow you.
Can you say that again?
Why do one-time fuckwitted idjits I’ve never heard of like kevinlyon all sound the same? Is there a TF toady making a series of posts under different pseudonyms? And why would they think it would be effective, when they all sound the same? Not hard to figure out they are all lying.