It’s always the coverup


I don’t even know what to think anymore. It turns out there were several harassment incidents at TAM, which were all sort of dealt with (although why the notorious guy with the camera on a pole that he was using for upskirt photos was allowed to come back at all is a mystery), but I’m more and more getting the impression that the way the JREF was handling this stuff was to close their eyes real hard and pretend they didn’t happen.

Oh, well. They’ll get it all straightened around by next year, right?

(I have to add: I don’t think TAM is particularly rife with harassment, and I suspect they’re actually better than most conferences. But I want them to be much better than the culture as a whole, and the first step is acknowledging a problem, not letting it fester and then blaming anyone who tries to mention it.)

Comments

  1. ChasCPeterson says

    Is there any neologism–any word at all–more…I don’t know…repulsive? than the adjective ‘upskirt’?

  2. What a Maroon, Applied Linguist of Slight Foreboding says

    (I have to add: I don’t think TAM is particularly rife with harassment, and I suspect they’re actually better than most conferences. But I want them to be much better than the culture as a whole, and the first step is acknowledging a problem, not letting it fester and then blaming anyone who tries to mention it.)

    In a previous thread, I mentioned that I was unaware of this sort of thing happening in the conferences I usually attend. I said at the time that it probably happened but that I was unaware, but really I’m not so sure. One benefit of working in a field that’s not one of the hard sciences is that women are a lot more prominent in my field, both in absolute numbers and in leadership positions. So perhaps us men are less likely to assume privilege.

    Or maybe not. I dunno. Maybe the harassment is going on, and I’m blissfully unaware. Anyway, so much of what should happens seems obvious. Don’t harass people. DUH! And if you’re running a conference, have a strict anti-harassment policy in place, enforce it, and if someone reports harassment, don’t retract into your defensive shell. Take action against the harassers. DUH! And treat the victims sensitively and respectfully. DUH DUH DUH!

    But what do I know? I’m just a social scientist.

  3. carlie says

    So there wasn’t just a single instance that DJ “doesn’t remember”, it was several. Including a guy taking fucking upskirt pictures. No, no harassment to see here. Not at all.

    Anyone want to try and say that the guy doing this was “just socially inept”? Anybody?

  4. carlie says

    I can’t even expressed how gobsmacked I am by this. Camera. Upskirt photos. Reported. And then the guy was allowed to come back. And then DJ said that he didn’t remember any incidents. Fuck.

  5. RealityEnforcer, Roaming Bear, terror of the Boy Scouts says

    Wait, upskirt photos… Doesn’t remember… WTF is wrong here?!?!

  6. Pteryxx says

    Somehow I don’t expect too many comments claiming that Upskirt Camera Guy was just trying to flirt with these women and didn’t realize he’d crossed a line.

  7. says

    Also, if you read the facebook thread, one fellow got pictures of the upskirt guy. This wasn’t a hit and run incident — the guy hung around and was engaged by people around him.

  8. Mattir says

    At this point, I think it’s pretty reasonable to conclude that Grothe and JREF leadership are simply acting in bad faith, deliberately misrepresenting their knowledge of harassment at TAM.

    It’s pretty fucking hard to forget discovering that someone has been taking upskirt photos at a conference one has organized. (Am I bad for suspecting that “boys will be boys” may be trotted out at any moment now?)

  9. bcskeptic says

    Huh? Some guy walking around with a camera on a pole taking upskirt photos? WTF!? If I’d have seen something like that I would’ve marched his arse out of there myself! Is it merely a numbers thing?…the more people there are gathered, the higher the chance there’s some wacko? Do you know of any such incidents at INR2 in Kamloops?

  10. Pteryxx says

    Also, Upskirt Camera Guy was a registered TAM attendee, according to the linked discussion; AND he had done the camera thing before.

    A witness quoted in Stephanie’s post:

    Two women approach me and another conferee. They are pale and trembling. A man with a camera on the end of a telescoping monopod has been attempting to surreptitiously take photos up their skirts. Yes, he was attending TAM. They had taken concerns to conference organizers and got little satisfaction. Hotel security confiscated the camera. I later learned the individual was well-known and had been complained about in previous years, and yet there he was again.

  11. No One says

    Just lovely. I use pole mounted cameras professionally. Thanks asshole. There is an ordinance against this in the county I reside in. I would look into pressing charges against this stain.

  12. mikmik says

    (I have to add: I don’t think TAM is particularly rife with harassment, and I suspect they’re actually better than most conferences. But I want them to be much better than the culture as a whole, and the first step is acknowledging a problem, not letting it fester and then blaming anyone who tries to mention it.)

    This is why you are the head Poopyhead. It took me about two days and ten comments to completely express that conclusion.

  13. Funny Diva says

    Mattir@10

    No, you’re not bad at all! In fact, according to my BINGO card, that would be just about “blackout!”

    Pteryxx, I just want to say thanks–you’ve been all over FTB with good information and great comments throughout this anti-harassment discussion extravaganza. You’ve given anyone willing to make a good-faith effort to educate themselves plenty of resources with which to do so. You rawk.

  14. Erista (aka Eris) says

    I notice an outrageously drunk conferee hitting on a non-conferee in the Del Mar Lounge. She was at the stage of being quite anxious but trying very hard to remain polite. I asked him if maybe the woman had had enough. He was far too drunk to notice his inappropriate behaviour and became surly. I watched from a distance. He decided to kick it up a notch, leaned across the table, and licked the woman’s neck. Myself and another gent physically restrained him and frog-marched him to his room. Hotel security wanted to eject him immediately. God knows why, but I intervened so he could stay. He was a royal pain in the ass for hours while we babysat him in his room, and he remains bitter about the experience to this day. I would not plead with hotel security if that were to happen again.

    In all seriousness, Rob says that “God knows why” he pled with hotel security to not eject the assailant, but I really want to know why Rob pled with hotel security to not eject the assailant. No, really. I want to know why.

  15. Pteryxx says

    Erista: I’m not that guy, but I’d guess he assumed the assailant was actually a decent guy who just did something stupid while drunk. I.e. “blame the alcohol not the person” excuse. He may have reconsidered when he realized the assailant obviously did not feel any remorse afterward. This is a really, really common assumption that some offenders rely upon for cover.

  16. Erista (aka Eris) says

    Pteryxx: Ah, yes, of course.

    I hate that excuse. Really, really hate it.

    *sigh*

  17. No One says

    On Rob Tarzwell’s Facebook thread there is a post claiming that
    “upskirt guy” is running for congress, with a link to the guys website. Not sure if the claim is true, if it’s a smear job, or a mistake. But wow oh wow if it’s true.

  18. Mattir says

    People do do bad things under the influence of alcohol that they might not do if they were sober. The problem is that by not tossing the drunk upskirt photo guy out of TAM or calling the police and letting the criminal justice system deal with it, one has simply shielded him from the normal consequences of such behavior and thus protected him from learning to behave differently.

  19. Pteryxx says

    Mattir: while that’s more or less true, predatory individuals often WANT to commit lewd acts and use alcohol to get up the courage/lower their inhibitions so they can get on with it. Learning to behave differently doesn’t interest them; but throwing this guy out or charging him with a crime might’ve prevented him from coming back to do it again, however he felt about it.

  20. Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death says

    @ 22 No One

    For sure! His being at a skeptics’ conference will ruin him!

  21. Mattir says

    @Pterryx – yes, that’s it exactly. Either way, the guy is disinhibited and does bad stuff, but the criminal justice system is the appropriate spot for determining whether he was using the alcohol to get up his courage for a previously planned bad act . Shielding people, whether conniving predators or drunken assholes, from the consequences of their behavior is profoundly unhelpful.

    I didn’t mean to imply that predators don’t use drunkenness as a tool, just that EVEN IF this guy were not that sort of criminal, shielding him from the consequences of his behavior was the wrong course of action.

  22. Mattir says

    Ing – That too. Really, it amazes me that people think that drunkenness is a social get-out-of-disgrace-free potion.

  23. Stacy says

    I’d guess he assumed the assailant was actually a decent guy who just did something stupid while drunk

    He now regrets his inaction. Here’s what he said in the comment thread on his FB note:

    “…indeed, I should have let security do their job in the first case. Why did I go to such lengths to protect this man? Reading the ongoing discussion which Rebecca has generated has allowed me to face the unfortunate fact that my own enabling in that instance makes me part of the problem. Quite an eye-opener to face that, albeit painful. I suspect many, many of us crackers minimize and enable these things as a way of dealing with our own anxiety and discomfort over witnessing predatory behaviour.”

  24. Mattir says

    I’m pretty sure that we’re all in agreement that the intoxication=get-out-of-disgrace-free idea is wrong and destructive.

    I’m actually quite impressed by Tarzwell’s analysis of why he did not act. It’s rare for people to discuss their bystander behavior in ways that suggest that they might actually have learned something and hope to act differently in the future.

  25. Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death says

    NEWS FLASHES FROM AN ALTERNATE REALITY

    Today, the prominent head of a skeptics’ organization was inundated with demands that he resign his position due to failing to bar further attendance at Wowee Con by a local resident reported to have used a monopod to take photos of the genitals of unknowing victims. Protesters stated, “this individual was caught last year, yet he was allowed back again!” It is said at least two conference attendees reported the man to conference personnel.

    The local resident commented that he doesn’t “see what the big deal is. I didn’t take shots of most of those guys when they were in the dumper ’cause really, their dicks just aren’t big enough.” Later when confronted by other irate conference attendees, he added, “Look some of them were way too old and who wants to see a tiny, wrinkled dick? That’s not my type.”
    When pressed on the issue of ejecting this man from the Con, prominent head said, “We told him to stop.” Protesters pointed out that the man registered again, and still had his camera and other equipment which had never been examined by anyone to see what he was photographing, or to delete the photos.

    Numerous men commented that they were extremely upset at finding that the local man had taken an unknown number of photos of many of them while in the toilet.

    Would that be a bigger deal?

  26. Mattir says

    Lyn, you should know that the Penis is always a Bigger Deal. It’s the Phallic Axiom, in fact.

  27. Kylie Sturgess says

    “But I want them to be much better than the culture as a whole, and the first step is acknowledging a problem, not letting it fester and then blaming anyone who tries to mention it.”

    Yes – like the treatment of Sara Mayhew in past Pharyngula comments. Pull your collective socks up people.

  28. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    Yes – like the treatment of Sara Mayhew in past Pharyngula comments. Pull your collective socks up people.

    Would you like to be more specific about how that’s related to what you’re responding to? Our complaint, around here, isn’t generally that women, like other people, get vocal disagreement when they say stuff. It’s that they face misogynistic attacks when they do. They are different things.

  29. echidna says

    Kylie,
    If you are going to instruct me to pull up my socks, you are going to need to be a bit more explicit about why. Just uttering the name “Sarah Mayhew” is not enough for me to go on, although I am a very regular reader.

  30. Lyn M, Purveyor of Fine Aphorisms of Death says

    @ Mattir and Pteryxx

    Good points. Which is why I called it an alternate reality.

  31. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    I just realized that seriously, ALL this time, I’ve been misreading her name as Sarah Mayhem.
    I think that’d be a really cool name.

  32. Happiestsadist says

    If the dude had a fucking telescoping pole, and had been at it a while, I’m guessing this isn’t just some weird thing he thought up while drunk. He planned this. Many, many sexual predators like to do their preying while they’re drinking, not least because there will always be people who will give them the benefit of the doubt that way.

    I have… unpleasant familiarity with the people who do this kind of “photography”, and the PTSD to prove it. This shit is planned down to the finest detail, and very often discussed and the results shared with others who like that creepy shit. He’s almost certainly not just doing it there, but then predators at cons don’t stop being predators outside of cons.

    Erista @ #18: Yeah, I’d be real interested in finding out why he plead with the hotel security to keep the dude.

  33. Pteryxx says

    Note, drunk neck-licking dude is not the same person as upskirt photo guy. Two separate creeps.

  34. Pteryxx says

    Ah – the incidents were also at different TAMs, but witnessed by the same person, Rob Tarzwell reporting on Facebook. Drunk neck-licking dude was at TAM 2009, upskirt photo guy was at TAM 2011 (which is directly relevant to DJ Grothe’s statements).

  35. Happiestsadist says

    Ing @ #44: There’s an incredible amount of time, planning and ingenuity among these wastes of air when it comes to that.

    But no. It must just have been a funny idea to a drunk guy.

    If I were to find myself in a space where this was going on, things would become dangerous very quickly. I would be triggered, and not the mild, I’m able to communicate one I am now.

  36. Mattir says

    If you google “upskirt” and “JREF”, you get several threads of JREF forum participants discussing, with some apparent familiarity, the nuances of upskirt photography. So yeah, I think drunk upskirt photo guy is way more likely to be a predator. Sigh.

  37. Josh, Official SpokesKraftDinner says

    Yes – like the treatment of Sara Mayhew in past Pharyngula comments. Pull your collective socks up people.

    FUCK YOU KYLIE. You’re a travesty. You consistently downplay the issues, pretend to be the naif who just doesn’t understand why everyone’s so upset, and then the most important thing that came to mind for you on this thread was not the revelation of serious lying by the DJ camp about known upskirt-photo-taking, but how you didn’t like that someone was mean to your Chill Girl pal.

    Ptooey.

  38. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    For people who are wondering what Sara Mayhew has to do with anything/who she is, and what Kylie Sturgess is talking about, Sara posted here and was responded to in the usual Pharyngula style; Kylie was concerned here and here.

  39. Pteryxx says

    If you google “upskirt” and “JREF”, you get several threads of JREF forum participants discussing, with some apparent familiarity, the nuances of upskirt photography.

    …Okay, now I’m taking forum atmosphere a lot more seriously when it comes to their relationship to events. Wow.

  40. Mattir says

    @HappiestSadist – well, it’s possible. Pretty fucking unlikely, but possible, just like it’s possible that US government has a secret organization responsible for staging “probings” by agents dressed in alien suits. It’s possible that Christopher Buckley’s wonderful Little Green Men was a work of nonfiction…

  41. Josh, Official SpokesKraftDinner says

    Oh, she’s an asshole all right. And she got what-for in the Pharyngula style for being stupid and dismissive of genuine reports of TAM harassment while she moaned about “rumors.” She said a dumb thing, and it caused people to question her ethical priorities. She was wrong, Kylie, and she deserved what she got. No, no, stop right there. Don’t even talk about how awful it was that she got called a lying sack of shit. We’re not going to play “tone” with you so you can evade the substance of many peoples’ objections to Sara’s assholery in that thread.

    The fact that you are unable or unwilling (and it’s consistent with you over time) to make ethical discriminations between merely rude behavior toward your friends, and genuinely morally troubling attitudes put out by your friends, is why I find you creepy and disturbing.

  42. Mattir says

    A casual review of the google results for the “upskirt JREF” search reveals this interesting thread, discussing whether upskirt photography is illegal, and this discussion about parents being annoyed by a photographer selling video of their minor daughters performing in a cheerleading event.

    DRBUZZO, the guy credited with the upskirt cam stuff, is prominent in the latter. Apparently he was banned, but at the time of the cheerleader thread(2009), he had around 3500 posts on JREF forums. (He joined in 2006, so 1000 posts a year? Yeah he was an active participant.)

  43. Happiestsadist says

    Mattir, so not going to look at that, but jesus fucking christ on a pogo stick.

  44. Amphiox says

    You consistently downplay the issues, pretend to be the naif who just doesn’t understand why everyone’s so upset, and then the most important thing that came to mind for you on this thread was not the revelation of serious lying by the DJ camp about known upskirt-photo-taking, but how you didn’t like that someone was mean to your Chill Girl pal.

    Indeed.

    There are none so sightless as the wilfully blind.

    Quite pitiful.

  45. Just_A_Lurker says

    Sara Mayhew and Kylie can both go fuck themselves.

    Sara decided to come up in a thread about harassment at TAM to make it all about the rumors spread about her. That was not what the fucking thread about. But nooooooooooooooo. Sara says it’s all just rumors about harassment and rumors about people going around that’s the real fucking problem because that’s what happened to HER. Fuck her.

    Fuck Kylie for the tone trolling. This is fucking rude blog. No slurs or sexist shit was said about Sara but her crappy fucking argument and dismal was torn to shreds. Rudely with lots of insults and cussing because FUCK SARA for dismissing this issue. So fuck you for acting like people insulting poor you and poor Sara are the same as the sexual harassment at conferences like TAM. Way to fucking dismiss the issue. Oh and Kylie, no one here gives a fuck about Sara’s resume with being a speaker. No matter who the fuck she is, she was dead fucking wrong about this issue. Period. Now Kylie comes in another thread about someone taking upskirt shots and someone else licking people’s necks at TAM, which basically nothing was done about to take about the mean things we said to Sara.

    Godfuckingdamnit. It’s not about you two. Don’t like the attitude here, then fuck the hell off. Stop derailing threads to shift the important discussion of harassment and failures of TAM to address the issue to making it about you.

  46. Mattir says

    Kylie, it’s those terrible mean Pharyngula people again, calling someone a lying fuckface for suggesting that discussion of the harassment issue is gossip. Gah, I get so freaking tired of bloggers who whinge about how mean Pharyngula commenters are. I’m so glad I began my commenting career here, and not on some nicer, more conciliatory, polite blog. I’m much more likely to recognize bullshit as being bullshit than I would be if I were busily scrubbing my vocabulary and instead referring to domesticated bovine alimentary canal fertilizeration producta or some equally high-falutin and nice phrase.

    Please explain why challenging Mayhew on the “it’s just women gossipping” charge is just as bad as JREF’s history of acting in bad faith…

  47. Pteryxx says

    I can’t quite believe that DJ thought he could tell a bunch of WOMEN SKEPTICS that harassment didn’t happen at TAM and they should all take his word to feel safe there.

  48. Rey Fox says

    Penn Jillette and an upskirt photo guy*. Jeez, I just can’t imagine why female attendance would be down. Shocking, I say, shocking!

    * How in the world is it possible for anyone to get more than one shot without getting kicked in the fucking testicles?

  49. Gnumann says

    Yes – like the treatment of Sara Mayhew in past Pharyngula comments. Pull your collective socks up people.

    Kylie Sturgess, this is some friendly advice: You’re making an ass of yourself. At this point though it’s still manageable. You got two options:

    1: Go back to the thread in question and adress the critisms there you haven’t addressed (personally I think you won’t be able to make any good replies since your position in this is seriously flawed)

    2: Apologize for tone-trolling. For this to work you better do some leg-work to find out why people finds your posts on this issue offensive.

  50. says

    What the upskirt jerk did is illegal. His identity seems to be known and there are plenty of witnesses. Why hasn’t he been arrested?

  51. sanshajohnson says

    I thought that I read somewhere that the man claimed it was just a tool to allow him to take photos of himself with speakers etc. Not that I would believe such a claim, but I think that was the defence offered.

  52. says

    Erista: I’m not that guy, but I’d guess he assumed the assailant was actually a decent guy who just did something stupid while drunk. I.e. “blame the alcohol not the person” excuse.

    In my experience drunk people are not different from their sober self. They don’t suddenly start doing and saying things they consider wrong when they’re sober. They’re doing and saying things they consider OK when sober but don’t do because they are aware that people might disapprove.
    People who are caught drunk driving usually think that the bad thing about drunk driving is that the police might be nasty towards you.

    Kylie
    The last thing I saw of you’re friend Sara Mayhew was laughing at a rape joke towards Rebecca Watson. Care to defend her a bit more?

  53. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    UATR, glad to see you still have fucking nothing to say. The very picture of consistency.

  54. bobslad says

    I am in no way condoning what ‘upskirt guy’ did, however I do have some sympathy for the guy and understanding from personal experience the compulsion to take clandestine photographs that feed an compulsion.

    In my own case I found a simple and very efective solution. I hired a model to pose and act out the fantasies.

    I would recommend this approach to anyone who is trapped with desires that seem impossible to work out. Beleive me most professional models will have experienced guys with far more weird and unusual cravings and being able to openly explore your fantasies quickly de-mystifies them.

    Of course he could just seek psychiatric help!

  55. says

    I don’t think TAM is particularly rife with harassment, and I suspect they’re actually better than most conferences.

    I have to ask: What’s the evidence for this belief?

  56. says

    I am in no way condoning what ‘upskirt guy’ did, however I do have some sympathy for the guy and understanding from personal experience the compulsion to take clandestine photographs that feed an compulsion.

    That’s probably because nobody ever made upskirt shots from you.
    No, I have no fucking sympathy. If you have strong compulsions or desires get help. If you can’t control yourself when you’re in society it’s your responsibility not to go there.
    Yes, all you whiners, I’m saying that if somebody just can’t behave himself he’s not allowed in society because he’s harming people. No, we don’t have to accomodate their needs.

  57. Koshka says

    I am in no way condoning what ‘upskirt guy’ did, however I do have some sympathy for the guy and understanding from personal experience the compulsion to take clandestine photographs that feed an compulsion

    How about you show some sympathy for the people who were assaulted by this piece of shit.

    I desire to kick you in the genitals. Maybe I should hire a model.

  58. Gen, Uppity Ingrate. says

    I desire to kick you in the genitals. Maybe I should hire a model.

    It’s a great thing, in the midst of all this wtt-ery when I can snort a giggle. Well done, sir or madam.

  59. says

    What the upskirt jerk did is illegal. His identity seems to be known and there are plenty of witnesses. Why hasn’t he been arrested?

    A very good question. I didn’t realise you were allowed to happily commit sex crimes at TAM events. The guy should be facing criminal charges.

    Actually I saw someone do that in a pervy anime once. The women ganged up and beat the crap out of him. I’d like to see DJ cover that one up.

  60. Just_A_Lurker says

    I have to add: I don’t think TAM is particularly rife with harassment, and I suspect they’re actually better than most conferences.

    Uh,

    1.) HUh. I’m not buying that they are better than most places. If letting an upskirt photo taker roam freely is better, than that’s condemnation of the other places.

    2.) Honestly, IMO, TAM will be get worse since the word is spreading they don’t do shit to enforce anything. It’s sounding like an awesome hunting ground currently. Of course, that will simply make it worse for the few women that still go unless JREF gets their shit together quick. Leaving this unresolved will turn the problem of “why aren’t there more women skeptics here” to “why are there no women skeptics here”.

  61. chrislawson says

    bobslad,

    Yes, I have some sympathy for this guy with antisocial urges. But the problem here is not that he has urges, but that he chose to act them out on non-consenting people. No amount of sympathy changes the fact that what he was doing was sexual assault and he should have been tossed out of the convention and reported to police.

    I’d also like you to think about your solution: you chose to pay models to act out your fantasies. You made the act consensual (assuming you told them what you were after before the session and did not pressure them if they had misgivings). Have you considered the possibility that the driving force behind this man’s actions was the non-consensual aspect? it certainly makes more sense than believing he couldn’t find a better way to satisfy his up-skirt fetish in the age of internet porn and online model directories.

  62. Matt Penfold says

    Yes – like the treatment of Sara Mayhew in past Pharyngula comments. Pull your collective socks up people.

    Tell me Kylie, did you ever apologise to us for not taking your friend to task for making such stupid comments last time she commented here. I did ask if you had at the time, but you lack the courtesy to reply.

    Somehow you do not seem to have quite grasped the concept of politeness. You do not get to demand we are polite when you condone your friend insulting us with her stupid comments and when you lack the decency to apologise for taking us to task and ignoring her rudeness. Have you had this problem with being a hypocrite for long ?

  63. says

    @Ray Fox:

    How in the world is it possible for anyone to get more than one shot without getting kicked in the fucking testicles?

    Have you missed how “guys, don’t do that” was considered “overreacting”? I shudder to think of what would happen to a woman who kicked a guy in their groin.

  64. Gnumann says

    Yeah, not seeing where she deserves any special kid glove treatment.

    It seems like ms Sturgess thinks women have the moral agency of children and should be treated as such. Al least that’s my working theory until she clarifies her position.

  65. carlie says

    How in the world is it possible for anyone to get more than one shot without getting kicked in the fucking testicles?

    The whole point of the activity is that people don’t know it’s happening at all. This guy seems to have had a lot of practice.

  66. says

    It seems like ms Sturgess thinks women have the moral agency of children and should be treated as such. Al least that’s my working theory until she clarifies her position.

    The “amusing” part is that this is exactly what we’re accused of: We think that women are withering flowers who can’t handle anything, yet when we passionately disagree with a woman we’re meaaaaaan.

  67. tfkreference says

    In my experience drunk people are not different from their sober self.

    I agree completely, based on my interaction with numerous people who enjoy the demon rum (including my college years in a fraternity). Those who are nice sober, are fun drunk. Those who are bitter sober, are mean drunk.

    The n of this anecdotal study is a few dozen. Am I over-generalizing? Has research been done on this?

  68. says

    I shudder to think of what would happen to a woman who kicked a guy in their groin.

    Probably not much if the woman isn’t on the web and when the guy’s camera is full of panty shots and it turns out the organisers knew about it and did nothing about him.

    It’s a lot easier to attack someone on youtube for (correctly) “perceived” innappropriate behaviour. Quite another when the guy is caught red-handed doing something even the mansplainers would (probably…) find creepy.

  69. CT says

    Rey Fox
    15 June 2012 at 12:43 am
    * How in the world is it possible for anyone to get more than one shot without getting kicked in the fucking testicles?

    Because kicking someone in the testicles is assault.

    Also someone who’s been in bad situations before, they know what happens after they kick the abuser in the testicles. That is a get out of jail free card for the abuser to beat the shit out of them.

    If the person being upskirt photogd was on the same playing field as the photogr, I doubt we’d be having this conversation.

    PSA

  70. CT says

    ricardodivali
    15 June 2012 at 7:32 am
    I shudder to think of what would happen to a woman who kicked a guy in their groin.

    Probably not much if the woman isn’t on the web and when the guy’s camera is full of panty shots and it turns out the organisers knew about it and did nothing about him.

    It’s a lot easier to attack someone on youtube for (correctly) “perceived” innappropriate behaviour. Quite another when the guy is caught red-handed doing something even the mansplainers would (probably…) find creepy.

    How do we find out if said creep is violent? You’re missing the point. If the woman kicks him in the groin, the creep could very well decide to beat the shit out of her. This isn’t about the web or character assassination. You just don’t attack some strange creepy guy unless you are absolutely sure you can take him out.

    That PSA was from my uncle, a cop for 40 yrs, who told my very angry self that many years ago.

  71. says

    Quite another when the guy is caught red-handed doing something even the mansplainers would (probably…) find creepy.

    Oh, they’d probably find an excuse for it. “A garment with a hole at the bottom is a clear advertisement for men. If you dress in such a provocative manner, you can hardly complain if you excite the natural male instinct to peer at you with specially modified cameras.

  72. Pteryxx says

    …That’s actually what’s happening in some of the JREF forum threads mentioned. “Is it a public space when the skirt-shaped opening just happens to be pointing down instead of sideways?” They were referencing paparazzi laying on the ground underneath famous women, but still. Bleargh.

  73. says

    I can’t see Facebook at the moment, but “running for Congress” rang a bell. Turns out the up-skirt thing was brought up when this guy went all in defending TAM as a place for a certain sort of person after Greg suggested DJ should consider resigning: http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/2012/05/30/perhaps-it-is-time-that-dj-grothe-resign-as-the-president-of-the-jref/#comment-72094

    Anyone still wonder why we get suspicious over people who step in and defend this stuff?

  74. Brownian says

    Oh, they’d probably find an excuse for it

    “But it’s human nature!” “Men naturally want to stick cameras on poles and stick ‘em under women’s skirts!” “Sometimes women like it! Rebecca Watson wants to make all photography illegal everywhere!”

  75. says

    @ricardodivali in #90:

    Probably not much if the woman isn’t on the web and when the guy’s camera is full of panty shots and it turns out the organisers knew about it and did nothing about him.

    Other than the fact that, as CT pointed out in #91, not only could it easily get her into trouble with the law, do you seriously think that a woman who would do this wouldn’t get a flood of abusive reactions, calling her a manhater and worse?

  76. Josh, Official SpokesKraftDinner says

    “But it’s human nature!” “Men naturally want to stick cameras on poles and stick ‘em under women’s skirts!” “Sometimes women like it!

    Actually, the Telescopic Ape theory is a serious challenge to the dogmatic and doctrinaire conventional wisdom about the evolution of humans.

  77. Emrysmyrddin says

    Ah, the Telescopic Ape theory, the one that explains why wimmin (diamorphically sans Official Ape Telescope, ofc) are genetically programmed to seek out Teh Pink?

  78. Brownian says

    Ah, the Telescopic Ape theory, the one that explains why wimmin (diamorphically sans Official Ape Telescope, ofc) are genetically programmed to seek out Teh Pink?

    It’s why men have the long view that makes them realise that there’s no real worry at TAM, or there wouldn’t be, if uppity women would just stop talking about situations like this.

    But seriously, upskirt photos? What the fucking goddamn fucking fuck, skeptics? What the fucking fuck is wrong with this selection of people that people like this fucking asshole exist?

  79. theophontes (坏蛋) says

    @ PZ

    [upskirt] I’m kind of amazed that there’s a word for that practice.

    This is a chronic problem in Hong Kong, which is a city of escalators and cameras/smartphones and short skirts (in part simply due to the hot/humid climate). It is the perfect upskirt storm. There have been endless complaints, but too few of the photographers are ever caught.

  80. says

    I am in no way condoning what ‘upskirt guy’ did, however I do have some sympathy for the guy and understanding from personal experience the compulsion to take clandestine photographs that feed an compulsion.

    I have sympathy for people with bizarre sexual compulsions. I have zero sympathy for people who inflict their bizarre sexual compulsions onto nonconsenting others. He’s not a victim. He’s a malignant sociopath.

  81. Emrysmyrddin says

    Ahhh, I think I know what the problem is. They’ve got the Telescope the wrong way around. We wimmin are standing right next to them, waving our arms and jumping up and down, trying to point out the sexism under their noses. But they’re looking through the Big End, and all they can see are these Weeeny Little Girl-figures far far away, squeaky voices carried on the wind, all alone on our desert island – and the sharkfins in the water are too small to make out.

  82. CT says

    Emrysmyrddin
    15 June 2012 at 9:47 am
    Ahhh, I think I know what the problem is. They’ve got the Telescope the wrong way around. We wimmin are standing right next to them, waving our arms and jumping up and down, trying to point out the sexism under their noses. But they’re looking through the Big End, and all they can see are these Weeeny Little Girl-figures far far away, squeaky voices carried on the wind, all alone on our desert island – and the sharkfins in the water are too small to make out.

    this.

  83. says

    I knew nothing of an upskirting predator when I attended TAM two years ago, so when I read about it just now my gut clenched. When I saw that the specific incident being talked about pertained to 2011, I was relieved. Then I read further that it was a repeat offender who was well known to have done such things at TAM in the past. I feel nauseated right now, knowing that I wore a dress on at least one occasion while at TAM and how crowded the hallways can get and how easily I could’ve been a victim without knowing it.

  84. says

    FUCK YOU, BOBSLAD.

    Take your fucking sympathies for predators and shove them up your ass and chase them with a dead, rotting porcupine that’s been marinating in capsaicin.

    I’m so fucking tired of “teh poor menz, how will they get their rocks off if they can’t harass women/rape women/take photos of women without their consent?!?!” that I could fucking spit.

    So fucking tired of men’s orgasms being placed far before women’s basic safety, never mind comfort.

    (And how much do you want to bet that some slimepitter or other will whine about “threats of anal rape with a dead porcupine” being permitted on a thread about real-life sexual violation of women?)

  85. Happiestsadist says

    Bobslad @ #75: I have no fucking sympathy for people with that compulsion. Zero. When you decide your desire to get your rocks off is more important than the safety and privacy of others, you should either get help, or gouge out your fucking eyes. For most of these fucking slimes, it’s all about the nonconsent of the person in question.

    RicardoDiavoli @ #90: Aww, that naivete is sweet. I’ve been threatened by a guy who was refusing to delete the pictures he took before I noticed, and after I said no. In a crowd of people, this guy told me I was asking for it dressed the way I was and tried to intimidate me for being a crazy bitch who hated men. A smaller subcrowd was watching all this play out. They were amused, and did nothing.

    Surreptitious photography was, in addition to what he did to me, my rapist ex’s favourite hobby. It was all about the humiliation aspect, and the nonconsent. Many of the photos are shared online.

    Oh, and I forget where in the US, it was ruled that even taking upskirt photos of a minor was fine, because she had no “reasonable assumption” of privacy in the mall where it happened.

    Man, I wish all the blogposts that are excellently covering this here on FTB had added a trigger warning, though.

  86. Happiestsadist says

    Uh, hey? PZ? Dr. Myers? Poopyhead? I feel really awful and embarrassed and uuugh for asking this, but is there any way posts about this photography shit can get some kind of warning?

    (I’mma post this real fast so I can’t back out and I’ll regret this anyway. )

  87. Happiestsadist says

    Thank you so much, Stephanie. :) I was planning to ask the rest of you excellent folks reporting on this, but I kind of chickened out.

    Though it’s not something that a lot of people think of, nonconsensual recording is still sexual violence, and a lot of people have also been unfortunate enough to have experienced it along with sexual assault.

  88. says

    I’m also used to having an audience that feels generally safer with me, even when dealing with nasty stuff, so I have to get used to having posts read more widely. Please always feel free to point out when I miss something.

  89. Happiestsadist says

    For me, it’s less of a nasty stuff thing than the surprise part. I mean, I started reading because I knew there’d be some discussion of nastiness, but specific triggers are still surprising and that umm, causes bad reactions. I mean, I can stay and participate in conversations about these things if I know what I’m dealing with with some degree of warning. And that’s a form of sexual violence I think I have once seen a trigger for in the past without someone (often me) asking or the author knowing I’m there.

    Aaand, now talking about my own trigger issues is making me want to hide under the desk in awkward shame, so thanks again for doing the right awesome thing, Stephanie.

  90. says

    Pteryxx:

    Somehow I don’t expect too many comments claiming that Upskirt Camera Guy was just trying to flirt with these women and didn’t realize he’d crossed a line.

    Give it time.

    And, yeah, I know, he’s running for Congress. I bet there’ll still be one or two shitwicks making the “awkwardness” excuse, if it doesn’t automatically default to the “smear job” excuse.

    Giliell, I agree with your comments on drunkenness. The same bullshit, laced heavily with Alcoholics Anonymous dogma, was flung around when Mel Gibson had his “Sugartits” moment: Teh Demon Alkyhall turning teh poor nice fellow into a raging monster. What a crock of shit. Alcohol doesn’t change your personality. It releases your inhibitions.

    Cry harder, Kylie. Take your Chill Girl concern trolling and fuck off.

    Mattir, I just skimmed those two old JREF threads. Between “Ponderingturtle” in the first thread whining about “violence” (e.g., punching or kicking someone who’s filming under your skirt) and “Soapy Sam” in the second blaming cheerleaders and gymnasts for performing in public in short skirts in the first place, I need a decon shower.

    Upagainsttheropes, go fuck yourself if you can’t differentiate between a “moral panic” and women’s bodily autonomy being violated. You sound precisely like the type of asshole who defends Roman Polanski and Dominique Strauss-Kahn against the “prudishness” of the U.S.

    I agree with Happiestsadist that trigger warnings should regularly accompany posts discussing nonconsensual recording. It’s a major, major issue.

  91. says

    Is there anyone who still thinks “bad thing X doesn’t happen among Our Kind” means anything other than “we make a point of not being aware of bad thing X happening and look for ways to dismiss or explain away reports that do manage to make it through”?

    As to “some women like that”: if we’re talking about clandestine upskirt photography, it’s not only wrong, it’s impossible. If you can’t tell whether it’s happening or not, you can’t really be said to have an opinion about it.

  92. says

    This isn’t about the web or character assassination. You just don’t attack some strange creepy guy unless you are absolutely sure you can take him out.

    etc… etc…

    Fine, ok. You are far too weak to do anything and the consequences far too terrible to ever do anything anyway and the entire police force would be out to get you.

    You win, or whatever. I promise never to bring it up again on this forum.

  93. Pteryxx says

    Fine, ok. You are far too weak to do anything and the consequences far too terrible to ever do anything anyway and the entire police force would be out to get you.

    …You think that was hyperbole, but you were just asking for this one.

    Florida Woman Facing Jail Time After Defending Herself Against Domestic Violence:

    A Florida woman is facing 20 years in prison after being convicted on three counts of Aggravated Assault for firing a gun in the air to scare off her abusive husband. Marissa Alexander was arrested in August 2010 after a fight with her husband, who she says was abusive for many years. She said in court documents that she tried to escape after her husband strangled her but she was unable to get out of the locked garage so she grabbed her gun instead. No one was hurt when she shot at the ceiling.

    http://feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=13597

  94. julian says

    Sturgess pops in to… well I’m not sure what. But whatever it was it included no curse words and was critical of pharyngula so it must be good.

    Anyway,

    Grothe needs to 1)admit fault, 2)issue a definitive condemnation of this form of behavior and those excusing it, 3)acknowledge he hasn’t handled these incidents as well as he could and that the input of the people he’s blamed for causing controversy may actually help him better deal with issues of harassment at TAM, and 4)say nothing about how wonderful TAM is.

  95. Mattir says

    Demon Alkyhall turning teh poor nice fellow into a raging monster. What a crock of shit. Alcohol doesn’t change your personality. It releases your inhibitions.

    I agree with this completely, and so does the vast preponderance of AA literature. The self-help culture of AA as a whole, however, has not done much to encourage the taking of personal responsibility for one’s actions while intoxicated.

    As a side note, I would greatly prefer that predatory assholes and bitter, angry types retain their inhibitions.

  96. Happiestsadist says

    ricardodiavoli @ #119: Or maybe you could figure out that women who’ve been on the receiving end of that shit might know a bit more about it than some dude mansplaining why it’s all their fault for not punching the guy. Nice victim-blaming you’ve got there.

  97. Cyranothe2nd says

    Some clarification:
    1. Camera guy and Drunk guy are not the same people. That was 2 separate incidents that some ppl unthread are combining.

    2. Camera guy is indeed running for Congress. On the FB thread, he denies that he was taking pervy pics with the camera, but was instead using the telescoping arm for taking pics with conference speakers.

    3. The woman who reported him (along with another, unnamed woman) said that she never actually saw him take any upskirt shots, but did see him hold the camera down by his feet almost continuously, and that she and other women repeatedly asked him to leave them alone/not bring the camera near them and he ignored their requests.

    4. All of this was reported to DJ in person and in writing. The women who reported attempted to follow up several times over a 6 month period and were never updated. They eventually gave up.

    5. *My opinion* Even if we are to take Camera guy at his word, the tepid response to a perceived hostile situation (and a lot of sexual harassment is about perception of hostile environments, not about empirical evidence–a fact that some doodz just can’t seem to deal with) is very troubling.

  98. Cyranothe2nd says

    Also, it should be noted that Camera guy has several threads/comments on the JREF forums about his upskirt cam kink, justifications about why it should be okay/legal, etc. So…make of his denials what you will…

  99. theophontes (坏蛋) says

    @ Cipher 73

    UATR, glad to see you still have fucking nothing to say. The very picture of consistency.

    There have been a suspiciously large number of UpAgainstTheRopes, UAgainstTheRopes, upagainsttheropes on Pharyngula. I trust this is not the creeper that that wrote all that pervy shit about ourselves on FtB last August?

    Fresh meat for TZT?

    /relurks

  100. says

    …You think that was hyperbole, but you were just asking for this one.

    mmmm…ish. I knew you’d be able to pull out something somewhat related. Though i’m not telling you to shoot the guy… and I can’t see a guy with a camera on a pole being too keen to press charges when you’ve get witnesses and a string of complaints against him already.

    …and frankly. If you are worried about getting hurt well, this guy has been allowed to do what he wants so far. Who says he won’t hurt someone for giggles anyway?

    However this was all merely an amusing suggestion. You’re quite right, no one wants trouble.

    Much as i’d like to see this sad little bully get his come-uppance short n swift it isn’t going to happen. Which I think you will agree HappiestSadist…is a shame.

  101. bobslad says

    Oh Dear – I do apologise I do seem to have expressed the wrong end of things in my first post here.

    Yes I do agree that if this guy is just out to violate women and gets his rocks off by assaulting innocents in non-consensual way then that goes beyong bad and he deserves to have a good slapping – and I will stand in line to help out – I have no hesitation in that. Get the law onto him and throw every thing in the book at him. What he did is utterly depraved and not to be tolerated in any society – I am with you all in that.

    However I am surprised at the depth of brutish anger and violence expressed on a civilsed board to my post, some comments on my post seem to put me on par with the perp, again I apologise to have offended so. I cannot be as violent as you guys and gals. Doesn’t everyone have ‘dark urges’, but only a tiny minority are unable to contain them?? So quick to anger you are, who don’t know me from one post.

    The point of my post is that at the back of my mind I have lived most of my life under a dark shadow that I could potentialy have sunk as low as ‘upskirt guy’ and I have spent a fortune on psychiatrist, psychotherapy, counselling, hypno therapy, CBT – you name it to get away from there – none of it helped me! It was only through consensual photography (I would only do it if fully consensual, and I explained all before a camera even came out) that removed that fear and not only am I free of any insane drives today (I hope), I have made some very good and respected friends directly through that experience. I would hope my positive experiences would help another ‘on the brink’.

    Ok if it is essentially the non-consensual component for him – then nothing in my post applies.

    My guess is that ‘upskirt guy’ has not even tried to get help at any stage. And I wish he would – securly behind bars most likely. I am not as ready to write off a human life as some. Comes from being an Atheist – I respect human life – even lowlifes. And before anyone screams at that – yes I have respect for womens rights to dignity and freedom from unwanted, unwarrented attention, absolutly and above my own. So stop him and then help him – is that so wrong??

    As to a capsicum coated deceased porcupine (I assume quills first) – save that for traffic wardens… :)

    And the person who wants to kick a model – well that sounds like good anger management, sure you can get something styrofoam :)

  102. Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy says

    However I am surprised at the depth of brutish anger and violence expressed on a civilsed board to my post,

    Aww… pobrecito.

  103. bobslad says

    pobrecito – ??? Don’t understand reference.
    Its an adult board, I don’t expect to be treated with kid gloves, just expect a better standard than a theist board..

  104. says

    However I am surprised at the depth of brutish anger and violence expressed on a civilsed board to my post, some comments on my post seem to put me on par with the perp,

    Wah.

    Also, you don’t get cookies for restraining yourself from harming others. That’s a baseline expectation in adult society, or at least it should be, so nobody really gives a fuck that you’ve had to work sooooo haaarrrrd not to treat women as objects for your amusement.

    Those of us with “dark urges” express them in consensual BDSM or through other harmless means. And we don’t expect to be patted on the back for it, any more than we expect to be validated as adults for pooping in the toilet and not on the floor.

  105. CT says

    Though i’m not telling you to shoot the guy… and I can’t see a guy with a camera on a pole being too keen to press charges when you’ve get witnesses and a string of complaints against him already.

    Just because YOU wouldn’t like to press charges if it were YOU doesn’t mean this creep isn’t a violent shit that will slice up everyone around him if you kick him in the balls THEN call the police and press charges for attacking him. And he would be *right*, you did fucking attack him. which charge do you think has the worse repurcussions? assault or upskirting? do you really think someone would be allowed to come back to TAM if they kicked someone in the testicles for what TAM regards as the minor crime of upskirt photog?

    do you realize you’re victim blaming? People shouldn’t have to assault someone in order to expect respect and decency

    you’re a fucking idiot

  106. Happiestsadist says

    Bobslad: So…you want cookies for not committing sex crimes? Sorry dude, the bar isn’t that low here. I don’t give even the tiniest of fucks for your bawwwpain at wanting to be a sexual predator.

    No, everyone doesn’t have the urges to violate other people. That is not normal. And your weird attempt to conflate it with consensual kink is not reflecting well on your claims that you understand how vile your desires to be a sexual predator are/were.

    It’s not “writing off human life” to care more about the safety of women than the poor widdle egos of some misogynist scumfuck.

    Also, with this “I’m not as violent as you guys/gals” seriously, go fuck yourself. Yes, you fucking are. You’re the one who admits to being a predatory piece of filth who is barely controlled. If I were the violent meanie you seem to think I am, the guy like you I knew irl would have ended up significantly less able to keep taking pics. No, we’re frequently not nice here to sexual predators and their defenders. Because we’re decent human beings.

    Ricardo @ #128: I love how it’s also the fault of victims that the guy keeps offending. About your victim-blaming. Also, maybe you should read what I fucking said: a crowd of witnesses to shit like that means fucking nothing. That crime is not something that most law enforcement, and even a lot of people apparently care about. Don’t fucking drag me into your petty little revenge fantasies, either, you misogynist shitbasket.

  107. bobslad says

    Wow Ms Daisy, you are so emotionally charged you are not reading the post fully or understanding what I was trying to contribute.. Or maybe its my English that is not so good ?

    Sorry not yet worked out how to insert quotes as you do…

    ——————
    nobody really gives a fuck that you’ve had to work sooooo haaarrrrd not to treat women as objects for your amusement.
    ——————

    Thats good because thats my journey and I don’t want anyone to give a f*** . Nor did I ever consider any woman as an object of amusement, fun or anything else derogatory, only ever with respect. Though I doubt you want to believe that. I hoped the stuff I wrote would help some other poor sod – but if not – hey ho – the internet is full of well meaning misfires.

    re Por-whatsit.. I ain’t going to waste my time looking up an obvious insult. But glad you clearly know what it means.

    and Bob is my father – I am his son – as in “Bob’s lad”. Maybe the ex-colonies use different terms.

    This is all way off the original topic, so please carry on with more relevant and important stuff, I had an opinion, and it is clearly not well received by some, so maybe I was wrong. At least I tried to contribute, if my opinion doesn’t sit well with you – frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn. :)

  108. Happiestsadist says

    Hey bobslad, you realize you’re being a sexist POS in insisting that you’re right because she’s “emotional” (Asshole, having emotions about women being violated is what people who aren’t shit do!), right?

    No shit you don’t give a damn that women, and men who aren’t predators, are fucking disgusted by your spew. Because you’re a misogynist piece of filth. WE KNOW.

    Also, “pobrecito” isn’t an insult, you fucking racist moron.

  109. Amphiox says

    Nor did I ever consider any woman as an object of amusement, fun or anything else derogatory, only ever with respect

    It says only paragraphs after dismissing Ms Daisy as “emotional”.

    Impressive degree of respect.

  110. Amphiox says

    (and a lot of sexual harassment is about perception of hostile environments, not about empirical evidence–a fact that some doodz just can’t seem to deal with)

    If one is doing something that is not sexual harassment, or not intended to be, and someone comes up and says “that’s making me uncomfortable, please stop”, and you do NOT stop, then it becomes sexual harassment, by definition.

  111. Sili says

    Also, it should be noted that Camera guy has several threads/comments on the JREF forums about his upskirt cam kink, justifications about why it should be okay/legal, etc. So…make of his denials what you will…

    Let me just air my paranoia and ask if anyone has documented this past posting behaviour?

    Just in case someone (hopefully not the JREF mods) decide to disappear the whole thing.

  112. says

    Wow Ms Daisy, you are so emotionally charged

    Surprise, surprise, Bobscreep is calling me “emotional.” Because only silly, emotional wimminz would get upset when some creepazoid drags his ass in here and tries to cadge sympathy for meeting baseline standards of decency.

    And, cupcake, I certainly do get what you’re “trying to contribute,” which is a pile of horseshit meant to derail the attention from the actual victims, where it belongs, onto teh poor poor predators.

    Nor did I ever consider any woman as an object of amusement, fun or anything else derogatory, only ever with respect.

    Yeah, I’ve heard that, “But I really respect women, really!” line before. If you have to say it…

    Though I doubt you want to believe that.

    “How dare you not give me the benefit of the doubt when you don’t know me and I come into the thread pissing and moaning about how sexual violators are being misunderstoooooood!!”

    I hoped the stuff I wrote would help some other poor sod

    Do you know how many victims of varied kinds of sexual assault read this blog, you shitwicket? Do you know how many victims of varied kinds of sexual assault are regular contributors here? None of them need to read about your “journey.” Delightful, too, that you describe figuring out how to be minimally less of a creep in New Agey “spiritual” terms.

    Happiestsadist:

    Also, “pobrecito” isn’t an insult, you fucking racist moron.

    Well, how could Bobby here be expected to know any words of a language that’s spoken not in his green and pleasant land but mainly in “the ex-colonies,” and by poor brown people at that? How déclassé.

  113. says

    I’ve argued with dr buzzo online, a lot. his calm defense of his actions on greg laden’s blog are *completely* out of character. I have never known him to respond calmly to even mild criticism, much less accusations of illegal conduct. I do not doubt for a second that he prepared the excuse ahead of time.

  114. says

    Don’t fucking drag me into your petty little revenge fantasies, either, you misogynist shitbasket.

    OK. This is your forum really. I’m at best a passing visitor… and in the scale of things a somewhat sharp and unpleasant one at that.

    I promise never to bring such matters up again… and will not get involved in such matters should they naturally arise.

    …and my apologies for any bad memories that my careless words brought forth… and the implication of victim blaming (unintended though it was).