The parasites are crawling out in Australia, anticipating the Global Atheist Convention (next week! Ack!). The latest is a Christian group that is trying to put together some kind of counterdemonstration in Melbourne, called Undeniable.
I deny Jesus. Well, that was a quick and easy refutation.
Also, this is being put together by the son of the guy who published that ridiculous rag, the Regal Standard. I don’t have high hopes for this crowd, given the quality of their work so far. Apparently, they’re just going to mill about expecting people to ask them to evangelize.
And so I’m boldly asking every man, woman and child from every church and denomination to come to Federation Square on Sunday 15th April. Come wearing a white T-shirt (or top) and bring your glow sticks. We will also have a limited number of printed T-shirts with the words “ASK ME MY STORY.” Our message to the media is that there are thousands of us with a unique story to tell. Our testimonies are evidence that there is a God, because He has changed our lives.
Now I’m going to have to make sure to pack a black t-shirt. Fortunately, that seems to be the most popular color in the atheist crowd.
You’ll notice that they are holding the “rally” at 7:30pm on the 15th? That seems to be AFTER the convention has finished… um… yeah
So, it will be the same exact story for all of them – Goddidit. That’s some kind of unique, alright.
A million people can personally testify that Britney Spears’ music is better than Mozart’s, but it still doesn’t make me change my mind about her music.
Oh, this is getting interesting.
Alright, got my shirt, got my glow sticks, I’m covered in highlighter…
Nope, never mind. Didn’t go where I thought it would. Where is the fucking soap?
Wait, why are they bringing their glow-sticks?
Argumentum ad Populum. Thanks for playing, and better luck next time!
Jeebus made us happy to be ignorant and arrogant.
How can you resist such an offer?
Glen Davidson
So they can recognize each other in the dark.
Wear the same T-shirts and when someone asks tell them your atheist story?
Okay, I know this isn’t the point, but “ASK ME MY STORY” sounds so ungrammatical that it really bothers me. Maybe “ASK ME ABOUT MY STORY” or “ASK ME FOR MY STORY” would make more sense. Is this an Australia thing?
@10
That is how I feel every time I hear or read the phrase “peed myself” or “peed my pants” etc. They are a few words short of a sentence.
Who has their own glow sticks?
I hope “glow sticks” isn’t a common slang for “guns” down there…
Why a black T-shirt? You could wear a white T-shirt (to confuse them) or a green T-shirt (to annoy them) or a pink T-shirt (to make them foam at the mouth) or an peach-and-mauve T-shirt (to make them faint with horror). The T-shirt world is your cephalopod, really.
Isn’t it part of the standard Christian rituals? They all walk around with rosary beads, glow sticks, prayer mats, ben-wa balls, and other such oddities, don’t they?
Most of my t-shirts actually are black.
alisonstreight:
Idiots?
beechnut:
Can’t go wrong with basic black.
I think evangelical Christians blithely setting forth to convert atheists are getting in way over their heads. They think we’re going to be impressed by a personal story? Their life improved after converting, ergo God exists? Oh, the poor things. Where does one start?
I think most Christians are mostly used to making their arguments to other Christians. That would help to explain it, if not excuse it.
They should come; they will be in for a rude awakening. And not because the atheists are going to be rude, but because they are going to be ready. We’ve thought more deeply than they have.
This makes me really wish I could go this year. Unfortunately, I’m going to be stuck in an endless cycle of presentations and paperwork next week. Argh.
In light of #10: Or a T-shirt with WHY? on it?
Sastra #19, christians don’t need to think. That’s their #1 selling point.
@18
But so basic, Caine, really…
@19
They think we’re going to be impressed by a personal story?
Yes, Sastra, they are. They really believe it. They just don’t understand us fools and our wisdom. They’re happy to be fools for Christ’s sake. It’s all in their good book. They have no idea, really.
Apparently the color black has a pH above 7 now? /snark
They must be. It’s the only explanation for why they insist on making arguments that, if they were to work at all, would prove every religious belief with equal efficacy.
beechnut:
*shrugs* Black looks good on most people. Personally, I like black. Besides, I don’t recall anyone saying it had to be a plain black tee.
@27
You’re just not being serious, Caine. What’s wrong with peach-and-mauve, anyway? I’m sure it would suit PZ to a T…
My word! I just had a look at ‘comedian’ Ben Price’s website. Not only are his impersonations not particularly good, but he also demonstrates a rather racist attitude by portraying a character called Tim Tam from Vietnam. His most recent gig (according to his site) was on 29 Oct 2011 at the Rooty Hill RSL, which should explain a lot.
And, of course, the t-shirts will all be black. It’s autumn in Mello. That’s all you need to know.
I really want to see a whole bunch of people in black t-shirts with white lettering that says, “THE PLURAL OF ANECDOTE IS NOT DATA”… :-)
PZ must wear a shirt capable of changing color in response to his mood/surroundings. Thusly his transformation into a cephalopod will be complete.
beechnut:
:shudders:
These clowns will be shunned by the general populace. Melbourne is not a city that responds enthusiastically to this type of daggy, attention-seeking behaviour.
Black is, or was until recently, the preferred colour for clothing in certain of the more alternative suburbs of Melbourne. So much so that it was referred to as “Brunswick black” and many people had nothing but black in their wardrobe (I’m not making this up). This look seems to be changing, though, to khaki trousers, checked shirts, dreadlocks and generous beards. Everyone in Brunswick wants to look like a rasta Ned Kelly nowadays, for some reason.
But
But
Noooo
My comment is still “awaiting moderation” – for the past 5 hours:
If all that was going to happen was “mocking” your personal god, I wouldn’t bother going to the convention. That would be boring and unproductive. Remember that atheism is simply a statement of what you don’t believe in; just like you probably don’t believe in Santa, or dragons or the moon made of cheese. But those disbeliefs doesn’t inform you about how the universe works or how to live your life or how to improve the world. Those are the things that the get together is about.
You’ll find all sorts under the umbrella of ‘atheism’: communists and libertarians, scientists and philosophers, anti-theists and religion sympathisers, the best of people and the worst of people – just like any other random group you chose.
It’s worthwhile to understand others before judging them or their actions; yet another thing the convention will hopefully achieve.
Clearly the charitable reading of the use of the word ‘undeniable’ is something like ‘cannot be denied rationally’ and not a claim about your ability to utter the words “I deny x”. Its undeniable that evolution occurred. I won’t have refuted this by pointing out that someone can say the words “I deny evolution”.
I realize P.Z that I’m not saying anything you don’t already know (probably) and that you were just trying to take a humorous shot. I’m all for ridiculing these people- sometimes its the appropriate way to respond. But saying something that is just clearly false only detracts from the force of that ridicule.
I only say this because it seems to happen a lot in the one-liner type shots you make that are intended to be funny (which they usually are). Solely from the perspective of wanting the ridicule to have as much force as possible (If I am not mistaken “new atheists” think that vocal ridicule can be a powerful social force) it seems best to avoid doing this.
For those who already agree with you (e.g people commenting on your blog) this just seems to be a trivial thing. But those who desperately want to disagree with you, I imagine they will latch on to the first false thing you say distracting them from the rest of what you say. If you want the people who you ridicule to really hear the force of that ridicule, then what you say should be itself be undeniable, don’t leave any opening for escape.
Really, mikemcd? You really thought that post was worth making.
Really?
Huh.
you mean like your post about grammar?
My post about grammar was all of three sentences long. You felt the need to refute a one-off joke and condescendingly concern troll PZ about strategy for an entire screen.
talking about this one instance of course is fairly trivial i admit. I tried to point out that I think its less trivial for two reasons:
1)the aggregation over many instances
2)trying to see how people who you are trying to ultimately convince would react to this kind of thing. They’re the targets of the ridicule. People don’t like being the targets of ridicule. It seems reasonable to assume that such people will be looking for any reason not to have to listen. just saying don’t give them one.
3) I tried to say it seems trivial to people like you and me because we are not the targets of the ridicule. We are not looking for a reason to reject what PZ says.
Your concern is noted.
I think PZ made the right choice by caring more about pleasing his readers with a funny joke than about possibly alienating one or two dipshits who *just might* have been swayed to abandon magical thinking and embrace skepticism and rationality but didn’t, all because of a silly one-liner.
Frankly if that’s the think that’s the tipping point for them then I don’t want them on my side anyhow.
mikemcd,
I hear that PZ loves it when you criticize the framing of a post, rather than the substance of it. Any more concerns?
again its not about this one case. I was just using it as a jumping off point
On the subject of a word not meaning what they think it means, this is an…er…interesting use of ‘renowned’:
again its not about this one case. I was just using it as a jumping off point
A jumping off point for what point exactly?
Blockquote fail. First sentence is from mikemcd.
Woo Monster,
What substance is that? the claim that jesus isn’t god? I already agree.
I wasn’t even trying to make a huge point or be super critical. I can’t imagine how you would react if I ever did actually try to disagree about something really substantive. My guess is I would be called a troll that much faster
#48- about the use of ridicule.
Don’t equate me with people who disagree with PZ by saying that we shouldn’t use ridicule. I think I made it clear that I’m all for it when it’s appropriate
sorry #46
Oh, stop fucking whining.
perhaps even this case isn’t the best example. maybe to be less confrontational I should just put it in the form of questions.
1) what is the purpose of ridicule?
2) what’s the best way to get ridicule to serve that purpose?
that’s all. If you don’t care about the question, or don’t think its worth talking about, then that’s fine.
but I don’t just immediately call me a troll or something. I realize woo monster didn’t call me a troll. perhaps i reacted harshly to his/her first post. Although I think it was meant to be a shot at me
You know, MikeMcD, it’s Not All About You.
that’s kind of my point, thanks
You think we were bothered by you being confrontational? Huh. I was more concerned about the fact that you’re a condescending, concern-trolling twit. Your latest offering isn’t doing much to ameliorate that, since now it appears you think you’re fucking Socrates.
I have a white t-shirt which says “the rapture? I’m not worried, Santa Claus will save me”
Do you think I will fit in?
I must remember to pack it.
I thought new atheists would have been happy if everyone tried to be a little bit more like socrates
Here, MikeMcD, have this cup of hemlock.
mikemcd, learn the first rule of holes, ffs. Stop digging already. In other words, you can shut the fuck up now.
Why couldn’t you just say something like #42? That’s totally reasonable, we disagreed about the point, i tried to respond once, and that could have been it. there would have been no need for all this.
I’m done. call me an asshole if you want.
All this what, pseudoSocrates? All your whining?
If you’re going to persist in digging that hole, learn where your shift key is, Sugar. Oops, pardon me – learn where your shift key is, asshole.
Oh, fun. This means that we’ve had nearly the entire array of trolls this week. Creobots, Godbots, Antifeminists/MRAs, and now a Concern troll.
Yeah, and my testimony proves there’s a Santa Claus, because he changed my (early) life.
@ mikemcd
You do realise that Socrates was a goddist, don’t you? Swathes of what he talked about inevitably ended in “therefore GAWD ™ “.
If ever there was an original puddle thinking goddist, it was Socrates.
For those that are interested, a quote from “The Memorable Thoughts of Socrates”, by Xenophon.
I’m not sure whether to go for the white teeshirt with “There’s probably no god….(etc)”
or the black XKCD teeshirt “Stand back, I’m going to try science”
OK, who didn’t close the door to the concern-troll dungeon?
I propose black T-Shirts with print:
BRING ME YOUR EVIDENCE
And it better be good…
…or at least entertaining
Are you as concerned about that door as me? ;-)
“Cassandra Caligaria (Cipher), OM
4 April 2012 at 9:15 pm
Okay, I know this isn’t the point, but “ASK ME MY STORY” sounds so ungrammatical that it really bothers me. Maybe “ASK ME ABOUT MY STORY” or “ASK ME FOR MY STORY” would make more sense. Is this an Australia thing?
Naaaah, just an ignorance thing….
I’m gonna comment something tangentially relevant (or not) and hope that it amuses you. This is a stream of consciousness type of thing because I’m too tired to structure it better, but there’s a That Mitchell and Webb Look video in the end (and if you’ve seen it before, you already know which one):
1. White T-shirts vs. black T-shirts
2. White hats vs. black hats
3. ????
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VImnpErdDzA
Funny, but the last time a self professed christian proselytised at me [he was an aquaintance of my college housemate] it had the opposite effect of turning me from an undecided agnostic to a hardboiled atheist.
He claimed he could prove to me that god existed and I was just curious enough to give him airtime.
It didn’t get off to a great start when his opening gambit comprised “I have a photo at home of Noah’s ark from when it actually happened”, then there was the speaking in tongues for half an hour during which he insisted on putting his hand on my knee so I could feel “the spirit of the lord” (At this point I was thoroughly disturbed), the insistance on squatting on our student digs doorstep for a week in the vain hope of converting everyone in the house. Talk about outstaying your welcome.
Regretably the week before he’d given up all his earthly goods to go and sponge off everyone else’s.
When we attempted to palm him off on the homeless hostel down the road he was almost instantly evicted after telling a girl in the next room who’d previously had an abortion that she would roast in hell.
I figured if that was god’s chosen prophet to bring me back to the fold, god either couldn’t give a shit or more likely didn’t exist. Here was living proof that god saves “our-souls” if you catch my drift.
After several years of being a looney magnet I’m done with religion.
I think this summarises my feelings nicely…
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/04/22/ten-tips-for-christian-evangelists-courtesy-of-atheists/
I’m a bit late for the conversation with mikemcd but after reading it, I just wanted to say I’ve personally been repeatedly convinced of things by having my ideas ridiculed. It still happens, from time to time.
I used to be anti-vaccination (even anti-medicine to a certain extent), anti-meat-eating and had some borderline mystical beliefs, as well as spending a couple of years as a bit of a 9-11 truther with some pretty crazy ideas about capitalism (in my defence, I also had a few reasonable beliefs!). Much of the craziness was ultimately displaced by various peoples’ ridicule over time and I thank them for it. Reasoned arguments I needed to see, hear and read were already out there, but it was peoples’ ridicule that popped my filter bubble and made me actually go take a look; if they’d repeated the reasonable arguments it would have wasted their time, I’d have found the appropriate mental gymnastics to avoid being convinced.
I think people who’re offended by having their ideas ridiculed (and I was one of them, despite thinking I was too smart to fall into that trap) need to be disabused of one key ridiculous idea: that having your ideas ridiculed necessarily means you are being ridiculed yourself. Anyone can pick up a crazy notion (although learning how to appraise evidence properly helps avoid it).
I think they envision it happening something like this…
Atheist: So, glowing fundie, tell me your story.
Glowing fundie: Goddidit goddidit goddidit.
Atheist: Any evidence to back up that claim?
Glowing fundie: It says so in the babble.
Atheist: It says so in your millenia-old book, that’s been mistranslated, edited and deliberately misinterpreted for political means countless times? It must be true then! Consider me converted!
Glowing fundie: Praise the lord!
Former atheist: Praise the lord! You know, I always knew that there was a god really, I was just angry at him, and wanted an excuse to sin, but now I see the light!
*Glowing fundie and former atheist skip off into the sunset, babbles in hand*
I always do. Ever since I was 8 and stuck inside during Hurricane David.
We had no power and I couldn’t read because my parents wouldn’t let me “waste” the flashlight batteries on Tom Swift. I was pissed. Went out and bought some with my next bit of allowance money. There should be a half dozen in everyone’s emergency kit. Pretty good idea to keep a few in the car as well. And definitely on your boat if you have one. (Actually we used a couple as trolled lures one night and got a few hits. No idea what. Swordfish are attracted by them, but I doubt that’s what it was.)
I guess they’d work to distinguish fundies from rational people too…
Betcha most of any audience they draw are passers-by looking for the free ‘comedian’ show.
The small crowd will only be photographed or filmed in closeups and declared a ‘massive outpouring of support’.
Tell me about it !
And He has male sex organs.
And we have no idea where He has been hiding the past 14 billion years.
a) I believe it.
b) I wouldn’t believe anything that is false.
c) I wouldn’t believe anything for which there is no good evidence.
d) Therefore, God is real and there is good evidence for Him/Her/It/Them.
Is that cognitive dissonance? The more irrational your belief is the more you need to justify it?
ah, more idiots like “True Reason”. One can see just how “Christian” those people are on my blog: http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/not-so-polite-dinner-conversation-true-reason/
and hmmm, walking around with ben-wa balls, PZ? depending on the placing….ahem, that could be quite amusing to watch ;D
and @ mikemed, ridicule show that not all of society finds religion respectable and indeed a “sacred cow”. It is very much the Emperor has no clothes, no matter how grand the “emperor” thinks it is. It shows that their claims are lies and not worthy of respect or even serious consideration, since all theists claim the same primtive things that an ignorant child would and have no evidence.
It would amuse the heck out of me if there were hundreds of people walking past the goddists in shirts that simply read HEARD IT.
In particular those 98.000 years we have had humans on the planet, before he chose to make an appearance to a Middle Eastern nomad tribe. Don’t just take it from me tho, take it from this guy. (watch it all, but money quote starts at 8.15)
peach-and-mauve
OMG. No.
Nobody with taste would ever combine those two. They’re not even in the ballpark of similar colors.
mikemcd = ecological criminal and troll
Guy wasted huge numbers of photons and electrons to say nothing coherent.
Mike, please, please, find an ugly xian cult and JOIN IT. You are making normal people and atheists look bad.
Hey, I have my own glow sticks. They’re a hit at any party, but especially ones where hallucinogens are involved.
@ #73 and #80
Right, thanks for agreeing with me. I never said that i didn’t think ridicule couldn’t be useful or effective. I tried to make it clear throughout that I agree that ridicule can be effective in just the way you say.
The only thing I ever did try to say was that perhaps saying blatantly false things (especially when its done over and over) just to get in a cheap shot might detract from it. If anything I’m the one who has the whole time been expressing the desire for harder hitting and more effective ridicule.
It’s totally baffling to me how some people in their blind rage have somehow been able to turn me into someone who doesn’t think ridicule can be good.
Oh shut the fuck up mikemcd. Yes, at points you made it clear that what you were concerned about was that the particular bit of ridicule that PZ used facetiously said something that wasn’t technically true. And you are oh so concerned that people who want to use any excuse to disregard what PZ is saying, will take that as an opportunity to turn off their brain. I get your point. I am still going to mock you for being a concern-troll, whinging from up on your cross about how you are being incorrectly viewed as anti-redicule. SallyStrange was right that even if this were true, no one gives two shits about that intellectually dishonest fool who refuses to hear decent arguments simply because they are being pedantic about a joke that is not completely, technically truthful.
However, your posts haven’t all been very clear on your pro-ridicule stance. From your post at #40,
Both of these statements imply that you think ridicule per se gives people a chance to “not listen”.
TL/DR: 1) Your point, that you consider PZ’s joke technically false and that it may turn some people away from his arguments, is boring and stupid. Interesting writing is more important than framing everything with a view towards dishonest readers who want to use any opportunity to disregard what is being said.
and 2) Some of your posts seem to be criticizing ridicule per se, and you should be more clear that you are only talking about a particular type of ridicule*.
*Or just not make this point about framing at all, because it is dumb.
Hey, remember when you said you were leaving?
That was a nice time.
P.S. “Blind rage”? Are you under the impression that any of us give enough of a fuck about your drivel to be upset by it? You’re pretty dedicated to reinforcing the idea that you’re an arrogant twit, huh?
mikemcd:
It’s so … quaint … how you think it was somehow a valid argument that requires refutation.
mikemcd, I’m going to make fun of your first post in this thread some more.
Why doesn’t a charitable reading of PZ’s comment that he “denies” Jebus mean that he ‘rationally denies Jebus’? When a creobot says ‘Jebus is undeniable” it means ‘Jebus cannot be denied rationally”, but when PZ says ‘I deny Jebus”, we are not talking about rational denial anymore?
For someone concerned with readings things charitably, you’re interpretation of PZ’s comment isn’t very charitable.
Your point, if it were true, is dumb. But it isn’t even true. PZ’s statement was in no way “clearly false”. Some delusional twit says, “Jebus is undeniable”. PZ correctly states that he denies Jebus. If you have been reading here for a while, you will have seen countless reasons behind his quite rational denial of Jebus. What part of PZ saying that he “denies Jebus” is factually incorrect? PZ does rationally deny Jebus. All the time. Jebus is not undeniable. What is your beef?
@mikemcd: Cool, I’m glad we agree (at least partially) actually. I would add to my previous comment, though, just to be clear, that the people who’ve ridiculed my daft ideas in the past have often made statements that weren’t 100% accurate, often for humour value. Didn’t matter, still made me to go read the rational arguments against me in a slightly different way. Jokes don’t have to be 100% factual to get a valid point across.
Also, I think the way you’re phrasing things might be getting peoples’ heckles up here; I’ve been lurking here for a long time and people here are usually not half as abrasive as you must be perceiving them to be. Maybe if you phrased your objection a bit differently … ?
(Concern trolling reversal complete).
Deep breaths, smile, don’t take it all so damn seriously :)
The snippet is from their website. Bolding is mine. Someone in the world hasn’t had the big G foisted at them yet?
I also deny Jesus. Jeebus, on the other hand, makes a decent case for himself by being supported by Homer Simpson.
Cassandra, #10
Seems fine to me – you can ask someone’s story in the same way you can ask their name, or ask someone the time, or any number of other things. I’m a UK English speaker, but my American wife agrees.
Going on how inspiring some of the Why I Am an Atheist stories are, it might be fun for a few of the GAC attendees to get there early and grab those limited T-shirts.
mikemcd, learn to read. If you can’t recognize a blatant joke and sarcasm this blog is way, way, WAY over your head.
I will contribute $10 to send Mr King (White people need saving?) a one-way ticket to Australia for the GAC. No offense to the Aussies, &10 more to then ship Mr King to an abandoned sheep station.
> & 10 more to then ship Mr King to an abandoned sheep station.
The one place on Earth where his socks can finally run free!
Damn, I got my posts confused, just as jnorris did.
But those socks have been plaguing me.