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Nov 02 2011

Predators among us

Feministe has a long, thorough, and scholarly overview of the most common kind of rape: acquaintance rape. It’s not the stereotypical violent assault that is going to affect most women, but the guy who gets them drunk and assaults them quietly, in situations with reasonable deniability. The article is loaded with triggers for you women who have experienced those situations, so I’ll just briefly summarize. The good news: it’s only a small percentage of men who are these kind of sexual predators. The bad news: they do it repeatedly, and usually get away with it. A few guys are making the rest of us look bad, and are inspiring a culture of fear in women.

One very useful part of the article is a summary of what we can do to isolate and stop the recidivist rapists.

(1) Men who inhabit cis- and het- identified social spaces need to listen to women. The women we know will tell us when the men they thought they could trust assaulted them; if and only if they know we won’t stonewall, deny, blame or judge. We need to listen without defending that guy. That guy is more likely than not a recidivist. He has probably done it before. He will probably do it again.

(2) The same men need to listen to other men. The men who rape will all but declare themselves. The guy who says he sees a woman too drunk to know where she is as an opportunity is not joking. Men who rape look for assurance that their social license to operate is in effect; they look for little confirmations that if he takes home the drunkest woman at the party and she says the next day that she said no, that she’ll be blamed and not believed. Choosing not to be part of a rape-supportive environment actually tells the rapist that his behavior has risks, and not everyone will take his side against an accuser.

(3) We need to change the culture of discourse about rape (and I mean all of us). Rapists know that the right combination of factors — alcohol and sex shame, mostly — will keep their victims quiet. Otherwise, they would be identified earlier and have a harder time finding victims. Women need social permission to talk frankly about sexual assault, because the more women can say what happened to them, the more difficult it is for the same man to rape six women without facing legal or even social consequences.

(4) Because the rapists have a fairly well-developed modus operandi, is is possible to spot it and interrupt it. We can look for the tactics and interrupt the routine. We can spot the rapist deliberately getting the woman drunk or angling to get the drunk woman alone in an unfamiliar place, and intervene. A guy offering a drunk woman a ride home may just be offering a ride, but if he is insistent when someone else offers a ride, this ought to raise a flag. If a guy is antagonistic towards women and places a lot of emphasis on sex as scoring or conquest, and he’s violating a woman’s boundaries and trying to end up with her drunk and alone, we don’t have to be sure what he’s doing to be concerned, and to start trying to give her exit ramps from his predatory slide.

I think #2 is going to be the toughest one. The men who engage in that sort of behavior tend to hang together and reinforce each other, and the men who will speak out and shut down predatory behavior in their pals at its onset will quickly find themselves excluded from the wolf pack. The problem, as we’ve seen in online behavior by the self-centered pigs, is that there’s no shortage of men (and women!) willing to form a support group for misogyny and rape culture.

905 comments

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  1. 1
    sandiseattle

    Cue up the Rape apologists/deniers.

  2. 2
    PZ Myers

    You mean, the guys who fit the description in the article of serial rapists?

  3. 3
    crowepps

    I think number 4 is the important one. Many years ago when my girlfriends and I would go out dancing we had a firm understanding that nobody would ever go home with a guy and we would all see to it that each of us got home. None of us were heavy drinkers, so we would have been very suspicious if someone suddenly seemed incoherent and a guy was trying to take her out of the place. Do NOT trust women who seem drunk to the cops or a cab driver or a ‘helpful’ stranger, but instead assess them for whether it is possible they are actually drugged and then get them medical help. I know it goes against the ‘eyes meeting across a crowded room, romantic stroll back to the dorm’ myth, but people who arrive together should COMMIT to always leave together, ALWAYS.

  4. 4
    sandiseattle

    Maybe. But more likely the type that think women (wimmin, womyn { or whatever the currently popular variant is}) are all out to get men. There’s more than a coupla ‘em out there.

  5. 5
    Inaji

    I think #2 is the toughest one. A lot of men who are feminists and get the issues and problems still don’t want to be the one in a group of men who speaks out. Peer pressure is still highly effective in silencing people.

  6. 6
    hyperdeath

    I would add a number 5:

    When a rapist is convicted, deny them the chance to do it again: Jail them for life.

  7. 7
    SallyStrange

    This isn’t a new study – it’s been up on Yes Means Yes! for over a year at least. But it’s great to see PZ publicizing it. Let it spread far and wide. Clear out the underbrush so the actual rapists have nowhere to hide, non-rapists don’t need to worry about accidentally giving off rapey signals, and women don’t need to be constantly on their guard.

  8. 8
    sandiseattle

    Hyperdeath: is it called the “Dept. Of Corrections” in your area/state/province?

  9. 9
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    #4 is good because it gives people something concrete to focus on. I remember my wild party days, we went out of our way to create safe party spaces. Always a couple of sober people around to make sure no one was slipping someone else drugs or to break up fights before they started, and of course the whole “no corning women in private” rule was in effect.

    #2 is hard… one of the things I’m most ashamed of in my life is not standing up and saying something when some shady shit went down, when maybe it could have been stopped at the planning phase. Peer pressure is a rough thing, but it would have been better to have people pissed off at me than me just standing by and doing nothing.

  10. 10
    SallyStrange

    Were you going to include a link to the study, O Tentacled One? Because I don’t see one.

  11. 11
    Inaji

    hyperdeath @6, while that could easily be a whole ‘nother thread by itself (and could easily derail this one), it has nothing at all to do with the current culture of rape we find ourselves in. The solution is not to do things after the fact, that’s not only not enough, it’s certainly not effective, given that a majority of rapists are never convicted, let alone arrested in the first place.

    A solution lies in changing the prevailing culture, in changing what is acceptable and what isn’t.

  12. 12
    sandiseattle

    Sally: I’d agree with you only under the condition that the “underbrush” is cleared out. Otherwise, the ‘non-rapist’ does need to worry. More often than is acceptable, a womans word is all it takes to ruin an innocent man that may have only ment to flirt a little.

  13. 13
    hyperdeath

    sandiseattle:

    Hyperdeath: is it called the “Dept. Of Corrections” in your area/state/province?

    No. It’s called Her Majesty’s Prison Service.

    I’m generally in favour of rehabilitation instead of incarceration, but when it comes to sexual predators, I make an exception. They have no place in society.

  14. 14
    Patrick

    This is definitely something I’ll keep more of an eye out for, among my immediate group of friends, we’re not really the type to go out, get drunk and pick up girls so I can’t see it happening there, but certainly I know acquaintances who I’ll be more wary about in future. I certainly know a few of my girl friends who have been affected by this and have no doubt it’s a real issue.

    I don’t want to sound like the guys who come along in the female genital mutilation threads and start whinging about their circumcisions, but I would like to point out as a male victim of this type of crime that it’s not something that only happens to women. I don’t say this to distract from the issue with women (I have no doubt they’re the far more common victim), but to point out that you should be wary around your male friends as well as your female friends. It can happen to anyone.

  15. 15
    fredricmartin

    What is CIs- and het-?

  16. 16
    Alb

    Mmmm. Just a note on #1, (please note: without any intention to justify rapists or sex assaulter.)

    When you say men should not “deny”, or that they should not “defend that guy” are you not advocating against critical thinking? I think that in these situations, just like in any other situation, the right thing to do should be to collect information and to evaluate proofs and reliability of data.

    Similarly, saying that “that guy is more likely than not a recidivist” is plainly wrong. We cannot take as a fact that the guy is guilty and use this assumption as a a starting point: this is called circular reasoning, I’m pretty sure you know about it. *If* there is reasonable information to presume that an assault has taken place, then we should do any effort to help the woman and send the men to jail. But please, let’s not suspend critical thinking just because this is a very sad, emotionally intensive situation.

  17. 17
    'Tis Himself

    Caine, Fleur du Mal #5

    I think #2 is the toughest one. A lot of men who are feminists and get the issues and problems still don’t want to be the one in a group of men who speaks out. Peer pressure is still highly effective in silencing people.

    I know I’ve been guilty of this. I’ve given guys silent approval by not speaking out about their bragging.

  18. 18
    Inaji

    Patrick:

    I would like to point out as a male victim of this type of crime that it’s not something that only happens to women. I don’t say this to distract from the issue with women (I have no doubt they’re the far more common victim), but to point out that you should be wary around your male friends as well as your female friends. It can happen to anyone.

    We know that. A survivor is a survivor. We’ve had a number of male survivors come out and share their stories in different threads here. It’s a valid point and one you should never be afraid to make.

  19. 19
    marcus

    Thank you for this. It is past time for men (and women) of conscience to take up the call and help create a culture of respect and physical security for our friends, wives, and daughters and by extension all women or any person in need (like LGBT youth for example).

  20. 20
    Andy Groves

    More often than is acceptable, a womans word is all it takes to ruin an innocent man that may have only ment to flirt a little.

    Well, at least we made it to 11 comments before someone started talking about how men are victims.

  21. 21
    SallyStrange

    Hey Sandi. You seem so innocuous most of the time, yet secretly you’ve been begging for a porcupine of your very alone all along.

    The only conditions under which “a woman’s word is all it takes to ruin an innocent man” were under Jim Crow conditions in the south, provided the woman was white and the man was black. Otherwise, your truism is actually a potent little piece of rape culture. There’s zero evidence suggesting that false rape accusations are more common than false accusations of other crimes, and lots of evidence showing that bringing a rape charge is extremely stressful and difficult for the victim. Bringing a charge of rape against someone is about as likely to ruin your life as it is his, if not more.

    In summary: you are disgusting for perpetuating rape culture. You’ve been around Pharyngula long enough to know better. Fuck off and take your rotting rodent with you.

  22. 22
    Brad

    Here’s the original Feministe post (from 3/2010):

    http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/03/25/predator-theory/

  23. 23
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    I, too, think that #2 is the hardest
    Because a ot of guys would make such remarks, repeat those tropes, all in joke, they would never dream about doing such a thing and they don’t understand that the one guy is not joking

  24. 24
    Inaji

    fredricmartin @15, google is your friend. ‘het’ means hetero, cis is similar, see here.

  25. 25
    mikeholcombe

    “Men who inhabit cis- and het- identified social spaces need to listen to women.”

    Why just men who inhabit cis- and het- identified social spaces?

  26. 26
    SallyStrange

    Uh… I am sorry, I certainly did not mean to copy-paste the entirety of the thread so far.

  27. 27
    onion girl, OM; social workers do it with paperwork

    When a rapist is convicted, deny them the chance to do it again: Jail them for life.

    Yes, because life imprisonment is such an effective means of preventing crime in our country.

    Rape is a horrific crime. But rapists are not evil incarnate, and locking them up for life does nothing to rehabilitate them or prevent others from raping.

    The only way to effectively eliminate rape is to change the culture. And life imprisonment does nothing but put the perpetrator in a place where they then become victims as well.

    It’s like trying to fix a sick orange tree by throwing away all the oranges–the problem isn’t the fruit, it’s the tree.

  28. 28
    A. R

    I hate to bring up Elevatorgate, but some of the points the study makes are quite applicable, especially 1 and 3.

  29. 29
    hyperdeath

    Sally Strange:

    Admit it. You did.

  30. 30
    Inaji

    sandi:

    More often than is acceptable, a womans word is all it takes to ruin an innocent man that may have only ment to flirt a little.

    You have been a pathetic troll here for a long time, Sandi, and you’re definitely the village idiot. Your recent attempt to sabotage PET was disgusting and now you’ve found a way to get people to pay attention to you, with this old, very wrong canard. You’re joining the company of some of the most loathsome, putrid, fetid sociopaths we’ve dealt with recently. Congratulations and go fuck yourself, sideways, backwards and every other way. You are beyond disgusting in your pathetic need for attention.

  31. 31
    SallyStrange

    Why just men who inhabit cis- and het- identified social spaces?

    Why did you read this as meaning men exclusively, rather than men particularly?

  32. 32
    SallyStrange

    Admit it. You did.

    Okay, okay… you got me. I’m evil.

  33. 33
    Inaji

    mikeholcombe:

    Why just men who inhabit cis- and het- identified social spaces?

    Because those men are the most likely to be blind to their own privilege and entitled to take what they want, which leads to rape and assault.

  34. 34
    Inaji

    Sally:

    I’m evil.

    Yes, but in a good way.

  35. 35
    mikeholcombe

    Sally Strange – What I meant was, why not also men that inhabit other spaces?

  36. 36
    sandiseattle

    Andy: I’m not saying men are victims, only that sometimes being the average man or even a good guy STILL gets one in trouble.

    Sally: we don’t allow rodents in our house. We trap ‘em and toss ‘em out. You’ll have to take your offer to someone else. I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, let’s be civil.

  37. 37
    'Tis Himself

    Alb #16

    When you say men should not “deny”, or that they should not “defend that guy” are you not advocating against critical thinking? I think that in these situations, just like in any other situation, the right thing to do should be to collect information and to evaluate proofs and reliability of data.

    How much more data needs to be gathered when some man says “I got her so drunk she couldn’t say ‘no’”?

    Similarly, saying that “that guy is more likely than not a recidivist” is plainly wrong. We cannot take as a fact that the guy is guilty and use this assumption as a a starting point: this is called circular reasoning, I’m pretty sure you know about it. *If* there is reasonable information to presume that an assault has taken place, then we should do any effort to help the woman and send the men to jail. But please, let’s not suspend critical thinking just because this is a very sad, emotionally intensive situation.

    If you read the paper Brad linked to in post #22 you’ll see that recidivism is quite common in date-rape. Few men date-rape but if they do then they’re more likely to do it a lot.

  38. 38
    mikeholcombe

    Caine, Fleur du Mal – Thank you. That was a genuine question; I actually had to look up what het- and cis- meant in that context.

  39. 39
    arguably MRA

    “A few guys are making the rest of us look bad, and are inspiring a culture of fear in women.”

    That first part is empirically true, and it needs to be dealt with–if it isn’t already. But the rest of it sounds like male shaming, with a subtext of healthy doses of playing on women’s fears for profit.

    A ‘culture of fear’ is quite a sweeping generalization, wouldn’t you agree?

    It sounds like a repeat of the rhetoric of moral and Temperance campaigns of the 1920′s.

    “The efforts of the WCTU made temperance attractive to numerous reformers. Progressives, for example, viewed Prohibition as a way to attack the bosses of urban political machines, whose headquarters were often located in saloons.” http://us.history.wisc.edu/hist102/lectures/lecture17.html

  40. 40
    sandiseattle

    “Sabotage PET”?? what are u talking about?

  41. 41
    SallyStrange

    I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, let’s be civil.

    Well, I have a big problem with your disgusting rape apologism and inexcusable ignorance, so fuck you and fuck your civility.

  42. 42
    Inaji

    ‘Tis:

    How much more data needs to be gathered when some man says “I got her so drunk she couldn’t say ‘no’”?

    Indeed. Recently, in this thread, Gunboat Diplomat was arguing that it was perfectly okay to fuck a drunk woman, because how dare he question her decision, I mean, what’s a guy supposed to do? What’s the cutoff, 1 drink, 2 drinks, what?

  43. 43
    SallyStrange

    Sally Strange – What I meant was, why not also men that inhabit other spaces?

    Ah. I see. Well, mostly because the social narrative that contributes to rape is so very dominant in cis- and het-identified spaces. There is less of an established social narrative for dating amongst gays, lesbians, and for trans men and women. Folks in those spaces are partially making it up as they go along, and are also likely to be suffering discrimination on account of sexual or gender identity. So, they are less likely to possess that sense of entitlement that society teaches young straight cis men is their right. Which isn’t to say that there isn’t still some of that toxic narrative at work, just that it’s much less intense.

  44. 44
    Inaji

    aMRA:

    A ‘culture of fear’ is quite a sweeping generalization, wouldn’t you agree?

    No. More of your idiotic arguments are not going to help anyone here. The current rape culture is nothing like temperance or any other lame ass analogy you try to come up with. It’s rape culture. For once, attempt to grasp that.

  45. 45
    SallyStrange

    arguably definitely MRA Male Supremacist

    FIFY

  46. 46
    arguably MRA

    oniongirl: You are absolutely right on this point below–couldn’t have said it better myself.

    “The only way to effectively eliminate rape is to change the culture. And life imprisonment does nothing but put the perpetrator in a place where they then become victims as well.

    It’s like trying to fix a sick orange tree by throwing away all the oranges–the problem isn’t the fruit, it’s the tree.”

  47. 47
    onion girl, OM; social workers do it with paperwork

    And Caine @#11 says my #28 much more clearly and concisely…

  48. 48
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    More often than is acceptable, a womans word is all it takes to ruin an innocent man that may have only ment to flirt a little.

    Yeah, remmber that poor bloke DSK. He lost his high profile job, he did not become the president of France, he’s just still a super-rich guy who can live his life, unless those other uppity women insist on an investigation.
    Now compare that to Diallo, really.
    Fuck yourself, sandi

  49. 49
    Inaji

    Onion Girl:

    And Caine @#11 says my #28 much more clearly and concisely…

    Oh, that’s okay. You speak supremely well on these subjects and our resident supremanist doesn’t like me very much. Tsk.

  50. 50
    screechy monkey

    Alb@16:

    When you say men should not “deny”, or that they should not “defend that guy” are you not advocating against critical thinking? I think that in these situations, just like in any other situation, the right thing to do should be to collect information and to evaluate proofs and reliability of data.

    What you’re describing is the right approach to take if you are a police officer, prosecutor, judge, or juror evaluating a rape complaint.

    It’s not the right approach to take if you are a friend of the (alleged) victim. There, your role is to be supportive and nonjudgmental and help your friend find and pursue whatever resources (counseling, the police, etc.) she may need.

    If a friend tells me she was in a car accident and it was the other person’s fault, I don’t think “critical thinking” requires me to cross-examine her and advise her that I’m not ready to form an opinion until I’ve spoken to the other driver. I say, “I’m sorry, I hope you’re ok, and what can I do to help?”

  51. 51
    arguably MRA

    bSally/b: You are dead wrong about that–but not worth arguing with. Their are other women who make sense, and aren’t as you are–whatever noun applies.

    Now go back to your little tiny label maker and punch out a new noun, if it heals you, k?

  52. 52
    Ing

    @Sandi

    We’ve had to pretend that you’re a nice commentator for way too long.

  53. 53
    Hyperon

    Hyperon here. Despite the feedback I got last time, I still don’t see why rape is fundamentally different from the ordinary crime of battery. In both cases there’s a physical attack which can last for several minutes. With battery, very often, especially when the victim is beaten to the floor, there will be a feeling of helplessness on the part of the victim. One crime is about penetration of the victim; the other is more about pummeling him senseless. If there’s an argument regarding why penetration is intrinsically and conceptually worse than bludgeon, I have yet to hear it.

    If you accept my argument, then there is one fairly interesting implication. It’s that you should shut up the hell up connecting rape and sexism. A woman is more likely to be raped than a man, but a man is more likely to have the everloving shit kicked out of him, even if you throw out the cases where the victim was in part the agitator. This is true cross-culturally. The trend within our species is that men have a tendency to maim and kill one another, whereas they “only” tend to rape women (which is obviously terrible, but still a good deal better than being butchered). If you want a reference, see Steven Pinker’s latest book.

  54. 54
    'Tis Himself

    arguably MRA #40 (nothing arguable about you, asshole)

    A genuine misogynist MRA has shown up.

    “A few guys are making the rest of us look bad, and are inspiring a culture of fear in women.”

    That first part is empirically true, and it needs to be dealt with–if it isn’t already. But the rest of it sounds like male shaming, with a subtext of healthy doses of playing on women’s fears for profit.

    You’re one of the guys who do make the rest of us look bad. Your hatred of women just shines through every whine you make.

    There’s a genuine problem with date-rape. Pretending it doesn’t cause fear in women is an attempt to belittle this problem. Fortunately your attempt failed.

    A ‘culture of fear’ is quite a sweeping generalization, wouldn’t you agree?

    It is quite sweeping. It’s also true, wouldn’t you agree?

    It sounds like a repeat of the rhetoric of moral and Temperance campaigns of the 1920′s.

    Why are you trying to minimize date-rape? Do you think it’s a minor problem? Do you think that since you don’t indulge it’s not a problem at all? Or are you a date-rapist trying to divert attention from your activities? (Notice I’m only asking questions and not making an accusation…yet.)

    The efforts of the WCTU made temperance attractive to numerous reformers. Progressives, for example, viewed Prohibition as a way to attack the bosses of urban political machines, whose headquarters were often located in saloons.

    Oh look, an irrelevant non sequitur from the rape apologist.

  55. 55
    Inaji

    aMRA:

    You are dead wrong about that

    No she isn’t. What we go by here, as you well know, are your own words. Going by what you write, you are indeed a supremanist. Or a male supremacist. Or a privilege-blind, entitlement-minded ignoramus. Take your pick.

  56. 56
    Ing

    This is true cross-culturally. The trend within our species is that men have a tendency to maim and kill one another, whereas they “only” tend to rape women (which is obviously terrible, but still a good deal better than being butchered). If you want a reference, see Steven Pinker’s latest book.

    Thank you for shitting on Mr Pinker.

  57. 57
    fredricmartin

    Thank you, Caine.

  58. 58
    Ing

    I try to be reasonable but I have to admit. If Hyperon was here in person I would have backhanded him.

  59. 59
    arguably MRA

    Caine: “For once, attempt to grasp that.”

    You speak as if we’ve spoken before–we haven’t that I recall. And I see that you seem to have put your head in @45, and pulled your head out of your ass @50.

    But I am sure you will prove me wrong.

    I have no problem with the rape culture paradigm– I do have a problem with sweeping generalization’s from kyriarchically empowered ignoramus’es. You are welcome to extricate yourself if you would like to, but I could care less.

    oniongirl is still right, and you still suck–hot air.

  60. 60
    Inaji

    Hyperon here. Despite the feedback I got last time, I still don’t see why rape is fundamentally different from the ordinary crime of battery. In both cases there’s a physical attack which can last for several minutes. With battery, very often, especially when the victim is beaten to the floor, there will be a feeling of helplessness on the part of the victim. One crime is about penetration of the victim; the other is more about pummeling him senseless. If there’s an argument regarding why penetration is intrinsically and conceptually worse than bludgeon, I have yet to hear it.

    Can’t say it’s a pleasure. I’d like nothing better than for you to get a clue and fuck off so far you’re off the planet, you loathsome piece of shit.

    Rape is not about penetration you clueless asspimple and you had it explained to you enough the last time around.

    During my rape, I was repeatedly beaten, repeatedly raped and repeatedly strangled. So whatever your little game of “oh hey, this is worse!” is about, I win. Shut your sick self up and go away.

  61. 61
    SallyStrange

    Thank you for helpfully labeling yourself so that everyone can know from the get-go that you are a male supremacist, “arguably MRA.” There is nothing arguable about the fact that self-identified MRAs support and promote male supremacy much in the same way the KKK support and promote white supremacy. The only way you could choose that moniker and not be a male supremacist is if you naively thought that those guys are actually about men’s rights, rather than about men’s rights to treat women as disposable fucktoys/baby machines.

  62. 62
    Ing

    I’m so sick of this.

    Just ban MRA and Hyperon. It’s the inevitable out come anyway. People are going to bitch about Feminazi intolerance anyway. Give them what they want. So fucking sick of this. Every single time one of you walking turds has to come along, swing your dick over your head, and smear shit in the face of everyone.

  63. 63
    Dhorvath, OM

    I’m not saying men are victims, only that sometimes being the average man or even a good guy STILL gets one in trouble.

    Sure, and that is half the problem right there. The average guy is just that, average. We expect better, why would it be such a chore for average to shift to good and good to great?

    In any event, even when your average or good guy gets in trouble it’s a sure bet that his accuser gets a similar helping of shit. Rape is shitty, it hurts people. Lets focus on things that makes it happen less.

  64. 64
    A. R

    Hyperon: I have to disagree with you on your assertion that misogyny is not a factor in rape. Often, though not always, the rapist is attempting to “assert his dominance” over a women (thus the terrifying sense of a lack of control). In fact, many rapes are committed by abusive spouses who use it as a tool to oppress their spouse.

  65. 65
    Ing

    @Caine

    It’s not like he doesn’t understand. He’s a mind fucker who likes the idea of forcing victims to relive it by smearing shit in their face.

  66. 66
    Inaji

    aMRA:

    You speak as if we’ve spoken before–we haven’t that I recall.

    We have, fuckwit. Your memory is not my problem.

    oniongirl is still right

    I never said she was wrong, fuckwit. I said the same thing before she did, which she pointed out (#11).

  67. 67
    Inaji

    Ing:

    @Caine

    It’s not like he doesn’t understand. He’s a mind fucker who likes the idea of forcing victims to relive it by smearing shit in their face.

    I know, I know. I’m done engaging that piece of shit. Killfile engaged.

  68. 68
    arguably MRA

    Caine: Yup. I was right! when I said “But I am sure you will prove me wrong.”

    I would wager you don’t even know what I was referencing in that small piece of the comment–and further wager that you are a waste of time to talk to. You are one of those mouth heavy slime droolers, that is low on substance, high on venom.

    Oh: and check your own privilege before you go sniffing through mine you flailing fascist fleur de’ hemorrhoid. Odds are high that you are chock full of privileges that as yet have no name.

    Now go get Sally to help you invent new, mean, little labels, k? I think you and I are done.

  69. 69
    'Tis Himself

    Hyperon #54

    Despite the feedback I got last time, I still don’t see why rape is fundamentally different from the ordinary crime of battery.

    You don’t see it because you’re an idiotic, misogynist asshole who doesn’t want to see the difference. You got any more stupid questions you want answered, asshole?

    If you accept my argument

    If we accept anything you say then we’re as much assholes as you are. Argument unaccepted, asshole.

    I’ve been beaten up in real life. I didn’t enjoy it but I recovered both physically and mentally. Most rape victims never recover. It isn’t the physical trauma that causes the most difficulty (I’m ignoring the possibility of pregnancy here), it’s the psychological trauma.

  70. 70
    Inaji

    Fredricmartin, you’re welcome.

  71. 71
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    If you accept my argument, then there is one fairly interesting implication.

    Yeah, and if I accept thr argument for Jesus than the world makes total christian sense.
    Because that’s about as much of an argument you have given us so far, cupcake

  72. 72
    Tethys

    Ewww, the herperon has decided to spew ignorance, false equivalence, and toxic male privilege on the thread.

    I will enjoy his virtual stomping.

  73. 73
    A. R

    arguably MRA: Clearly you have little experience here. Caine has turned on a killfile (a program that can be used to target specific commentators and prevent their comments from appearing in her browser) targeted at you. She can’t hear you anymore.

  74. 74
    PZ Myers

    I agree. Hyperon and Arguably MRA will no longer be tolerated here.

  75. 75
    'Tis Himself

    arguably MRA, would you do us all a great favor? Would you fuck yourself in the ass with a decaying porcupine until you pass out?

  76. 76
    pelamun

    I was about to put them on the Troll Watch, but PZ banning them saves me the trouble…

  77. 77
    Inaji

    I agree. Hyperon and Arguably MRA will no longer be tolerated here.

    Thank you. Seeing Hyperon here again was a nasty shock.

  78. 78
    A. R

    Thanks PZ, I was going to killfile them, but you’ve saved my the work!

  79. 79
    Inaji

    pelamun:

    I was about to put them on the Troll Watch

    Hyperon is more than well known here and is universally loathed.

  80. 80
    SallyStrange

    Ah, this is how fascism starts in America… with the banning of a couple of rape-apologist male supremacist trolls who will now only have 99.99853% of the entire internet in which to spew their hatred. Such a sad day for freedom.

    /ERV’d

  81. 81
    Inaji

    aMRA:

    Oh: and check your own privilege before you go sniffing through mine you flailing fascist fleur de’ hemorrhoid. Odds are high that you are chock full of privileges that as yet have no name.

    I’m fully aware of my own privilege.

    Now go get Sally to help you invent new, mean, little labels, k? I think you and I are done.

    Well, as you’re banned, that will have to wait, won’t it?

  82. 82
    Inaji

    A.R.:

    Caine has turned on a killfile (a program that can be used to target specific commentators and prevent their comments from appearing in her browser) targeted at you. She can’t hear you anymore.

    Fuck off, you idiot and don’t speak for me. I killfiled Hyperon and who I do or don’t killfile and who I do or don’t respond to is none of your business.

  83. 83
    Tethys

    In my observation, people who engage in “mind-fuckery” are the same people who think rape jokes are hilarious.

    It seems to be indicative of a controlling/abusive mind-set.

  84. 84
    SallyStrange

    Now go get Sally to help you invent new, mean, little labels, k?

    I prefer my labels–particularly the ones I assign to male supremacists–to be new, mean, and very large and obvious. Don’t you, Caine?

  85. 85
    Inaji

    Sally Strange:

    Ah, this is how fascism starts in America… with the banning of a couple of rape-apologist male supremacist trolls who will now only have 99.99853% of the entire internet in which to spew their hatred. Such a sad day for freedom.

    /ERV’d

    :snortle: I expect aMRA will rapidly morph and be back.

  86. 86
    pelamun

    Caine,

    oh I remembered their names, especially aMRA. But this was an opportunity as good as any to make use of the TW…

  87. 87
    Inaji

    Sally:

    I prefer my labels–particularly the ones I assign to male supremacists–to be new, mean, and very large and obvious. Don’t you, Caine?

    Absolutely. This is not an area subtlety.

  88. 88
    Ing

    @Sally

    I have accepted my Feminazi position and have embraced the fashion.

    I look good in leather.

  89. 89
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I think you and I are done.

    Now if you were done with this blog, *confetti*

  90. 90
    A. R

    Caine: I apologize, aMRA made a (somewhat rude) comment after you killfiled him, so I let him know that you weren’t listening.

  91. 91
    crowepps

    Alb @ #16

    *If* there is reasonable information to presume that an assault has taken place, then we should do any effort to help the woman and send the men to jail. But please, let’s not suspend critical thinking just because this is a very sad, emotionally intensive situation.

    When someone comes to me and says they believe child abuse is happening, I don’t appoint myself their judge and argue with them to see if they sufficient evidence for their belief. I encourage them to call Child Protective Services.

    When someone comes to me and says they think the pain in their belly might be appendicitis, I don’t appoint myself their physician and ask them questions about the details to see if they’re being reasonable. I take them to the ER.

    When someone comes to me and says that they think their boss is cheating them and that they are being required to work uncompensated overtime, I don’t appoint myself their lawyer and try to determine if they’re right. I help them find the number of the Wage and Hour Division and make a complaint.

    You might want to consider just why it is that you feel this particular situation is one in which friends attempt to convince friends who feel violated that their perceptions are probably wrong, that they emotions are probably invalid, and that other people have a right to use their bodies. Women are not public access utilities. The reasonable information to presume that an assault has taken place is HER STATEMENT.

    You might check for a lingering belief in the meme that ‘being accused of rape will ruin a guy’s life’. Actually, no, it won’t. Most rapists don’t spend a day in jail, aren’t convicted and so have no record, get the enthusiastic agreement of most around them that all the blame goes to the victim(s) for ‘making him want to rape her’ and/or ‘not making him stop’, and are able to continue raping with no problems. At least until one of the victims fights too hard and he kills her.

    You might want to check out the sentencing hearing for the man convicted of murdering Bonnie Craig, particularly the part about the “convicted killer’s past assaults on women”:
    http://www.adn.com/2011/10/31/2148110/craig-killer-sentenced-to-124.html

  92. 92
    Inaji

    A.R.:

    Caine: I apologize, aMRA made a (somewhat rude) comment after you killfiled him, so I let him know that you weren’t listening.

    Thank you, however, you’re misguided. Please, speak for yourself and do not speak for me in any way. Thank you.

  93. 93
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Sally: I’d agree with you only under the condition that the “underbrush” is cleared out. Otherwise, the ‘non-rapist’ does need to worry. More often than is acceptable, a womans word is all it takes to ruin an innocent man that may have only ment to flirt a little.

    You know, assuming that’s true, don’t you think the existence of a rape culture contributes to it?

    Again, assuming for the sake of argument that this claim is true:

    We already know that well under 5% of rape accusations result in a conviction. So the “life-ruining” effect would most likely be that the man’s good name is ruined – that he acquires an unsavory reputation and is distrusted by decent people. (Which an actual rapist probably wouldn’t care about except from a tactical perspective). This happens in large part because of the people who know that rape is epidemic, that rapists are good at hiding in plain sight, that the system is inefficient at convicting and imprisoning them, and that they’re likely to get away with it.

    Now, create a culture where rape is not commonplace, where pockets of rape apologia don’t exist, and where rape accusations are taken seriously and fully investigated with appropriate due process. Insofar as filing a false police report is a crime, this would dramatically raise the stakes for making a false rape accusation and make society confident that a man cleared of a false accusation of rape really was innocent. As long as due process is preserved, wouldn’t getting rid of rape culture substantially blunt such accusations? Wouldn’t that be an improvement all around?

    Or are you just here to whine?

  94. 94
    A. R

    Women are not public access utilities

    +1

  95. 95
    hotshoe

    Ah, this is how fascism starts in America… with the banning of a couple of rape-apologist male supremacist trolls who will now only have 99.99853% of the entire internet in which to spew their hatred. Such a sad day for freedom.

    /ERV’d

    Ooh, snap !

  96. 96
    BattleAubergine

    In a similar line of thinking: http://www.inmalafide.com/blog/2011/11/01/provocative-female-attire-is-an-assault-against-men/

    This is just… speaking as a victim, it hurts. It hurts a lot. Being raped changes who you are, fundamentally. Maybe you won’t mean to, but it will. It’ll be little things- You don’t like being touched or hugged, or you’ll shudder when people are behind you. You’ll stop seeing people as people, and there is a niggling feeling at the back of your mind, that ‘oh glod, what if he is one? or her?’. You try to suppress it, but it only gets worse.

    (Potential Triggers and overlong post ahead)

    I very recently moved to the area I’m in now. My rapist was a young man I met at a *family costume contest*. He was just some guy who started talking to me, after an evening of glances and so on. He was my first ‘friend’ I had made on the island.

    I, being a rather daft 16 year old girl, was flattered that a ‘cute’ guy a few years my senior was talking to me.

    We traded numbers, and started texting. He remembered an offhand comment I had made about how close I was to the event centre the costume contest we had met at. One thing led to another and he came to my house in the middle of the night, rather obviously drunk.

    I do not have the finest social skills, nor do I claim to possess them. I’m a rather quiet person by nature, preferring to curl up with a book, then go out on the town with ‘girlfriends’. I lack the social courage to just walk up to people and say hi, and I do admit over 9/10ths of the people I think of as friends I have met over the internet.

    I used to be able to spend hours in my bedroom, reading, or surfing on the internet. Now I can barely stand to be in my own room, my former safe haven from the world, and sleeping is a almost impossible. I don’t think I’ve had a good nights sleep in over four days.

    This was October 29th of this year. I have reported him to the police, but I only had his phone number, his first name, and the spent condom he left in my trashbin. The police have not yet found him. I spent five hours in the hospital. While he was not explicitly violent, rape is still rape.

    I do hope that one day I can move on. Not to forget, but to be able to accept what happened, pick up the pieces, and move on. My family and I are working on improving the security of the ‘in-law’ apartment I live in, on the side of the house- new locks, increased security, and for both my personal health and well-being (both physical and mental), a very happy if protective Doberman puppy named Lucy (named, of course, for the Mr. Deity character.)

    It pains me to see people so casually push aside rape like it is nothing, or to blame the victim, for dressing ‘slutty’ (For the record, I wasn’t. I went to the costume contest as Tippi Hedrens character from the birds, complete with exceptionally unflattering and modest retro styled suit.)

    I know this may be a massive overshare of information, but I hope to raise awareness that not all rapes are the violent beatings you see on TV. Sometimes you have to spend the night in your own bed, next to your sleeping rapist, too scared to move in case he wakes up and continues, or turns violent.

  97. 97
    honeymaid88

    First off: BattleAubergine, I am so sorry for your trauma. I hope you’re getting the help you need.

    Secondly: I fully agree with #s 1-3, but I must admit that I quibble a bit with #4. At the very least, I disagree with @crowepps’s characterization of it. Women policing themselves (watching each other, not going home with anyone) is already being done. And while it did save me from a completed (rather than just attempted) rape, I think it’s still a shade away from victim blaming.

    I’m not saying that @crowepps had any malice, but the implication that if we women (and men) were just smarter, more proactive, more…. anything, we wouldn’t get raped. Which isn’t true. It’s a damned million-dollar industry – you can buy discreet papers to test your drink, apps to call your friend or the cops if you haven’t checked in, pepper-spray and self-defense classes and on and on and on.

    I’ll admit it, I’m a tiny woman who turns into a giggly drunk after 2 measly cocktails. I get asked all the time if I’m ok… if I want to go home with that man or not, but no-one asks the guy a damned thing. Don’t get me wrong, I’m grateful for all those people looking out for me (and protecting me from my big-bad feminist husband), but sometimes I think the question is better placed upon the perpetrator rather than the victim.

  98. 98
    Inaji

    BattleAubergine, I am so sorry you were raped. I hope he is found and successfully prosecuted. While that’s not a fix, it helps. Don’t worry about being ‘overlong’ or sharing your experience here. A whole lot of survivors have done the same thing, and if it helps to open even one set of eyes, it’s worth it.

    Being raped changes who you are, fundamentally.

    You got that right. You’re never the same again.

  99. 99
    Dhorvath, OM

    BattleAubergine,
    Shit. I just want to say that was not your fault and that I admire your courage in speaking about it. There are many here better suited than I if you need someone who understands to lean on a bit.

  100. 100
    Inaji

    honeymaid88:

    but no-one asks the guy a damned thing.

    Which is why many of us, myself included, think that #2 is the toughest one. As ‘Tis noted upthread, he’s done that, remained silent when perhaps he shouldn’t have. Raising awareness among men, even feminist men is going to be crucial.

  101. 101
    Hot Mess

    This is probably as good a place to ask, when you say sex with a drunk person is rape, are we talking sloppy doesnt know where they are or what’s going on drunk, or would you say regular drunk. If the former I fully agree and find the bastards disgusting, in the case of the latter. I am afraid I don’t understand why.

  102. 102
    Dhorvath, OM

    Hot Mess,
    Why not have the discussion before the drinking? And if you met after you start, well, if the attraction is there, waiting until you are sober shouldn’t make it disappear. Why take the risk that you are misinterpreting their signals due to impaired faculties on either of your parts?

  103. 103
    Inaji

    Also, BattleAubergine & Honeymaid, we have an endless thread here, it’s our lounge, where there’s no topic. It’s a good place to talk if you want or need to, the current one is here.

  104. 104
    SallyStrange

    Hot Mess: stop wondering where the line is. That’s Rape Culture Country.

    Instead, start looking for absolutely, unequivocally enthusiastic consent. Verbal signals such as “YES, YES, YES!!” and non-verbal signals such as actively pulling down your pants and rummaging in her purse for a condom qualify.

    If you’re in doubt, then don’t. It’s not worth the risk.

  105. 105
    Inaji

    Hot Mess:

    This is probably as good a place to ask, when you say sex with a drunk person is rape, are we talking sloppy doesnt know where they are or what’s going on drunk, or would you say regular drunk. If the former I fully agree and find the bastards disgusting, in the case of the latter. I am afraid I don’t understand why.

    You know, it’s incredibly simple. If you know a person well enough to know what their limits are, how they feel about a drunken fuck and so on, there’s no problem, right? Because you know that person so well.

    If you don’t know a person well enough to know any of those things, then why in the hell are you trying to fuck them, especially when they may not be in a condition to provide enthusiastic consent?

  106. 106
    ara

    I’m .. concerned about posting this. I’m not an MRA, I’m really looking for an honest response, and I’m not trying to stir shit or apologize for rapists etc.

    In cases where both parties to a sex act are inebriated or intoxicated in some way, are both equally responsible for having sex with a non-consenting partner? If both people are unable to provide consent, do we hold one of them more responsible for the act than the other or is it just an opportunity to tell people wise up?

    I’ve seen this come down either way… two drunk people hook up, wish they hadn’t and move on with their lives… or… two drunk people hook up, she wakes up the next morning knowing she didn’t have the ability to consent and goes to the police. In this case, did a rape take place?

    Please don’t string me out to dry… I’m really curious what everyone’s opinion on this is and not just a trolling MRA.

  107. 107
    feralboy12

    @Hot Mess:

    I’m not sure what you mean by “regular drunk,” but I assume it means diminished capacity to make sound decisions, to some degree or other.
    If you suspect that a woman’s capacity to make decisions is diminished, yet go ahead and make a play for sex anyway, you are at the very least taking advantage of a woman’s vulnerability, using an imbalance of power to reduce or eliminate her ability to say “no.”
    If that isn’t rape, it’s close enough for me not to go there.

  108. 108
    SallyStrange

    @ara

    Again, trying to identify the precise line between “gray” drunken sex and “black” rape is pointless. Aim yourself back to the white: the realm of enthusiastic consent. If you’re not sure, then don’t do it. If you can’t find women who do sex this way then find some new friends. If you play it that way, you will be 100% positive that you will never rape somebody. Also, you will have better sex. Win-win.

  109. 109
    A. R

    ara: If you want a legal perspective (I will not offer comment on the morality of inebriated sexual relations and consent), the answer is “it depends”. There was a case a few years back in which the woman involved was charged with rape because she was not as inebriated as the man, but the situation can go the other way as well, depending on the DA, and, if the case goes to trial, the makeup of the jury.

  110. 110
    Inaji

    ara:

    In cases where both parties to a sex act are inebriated or intoxicated in some way, are both equally responsible for having sex with a non-consenting partner? If both people are unable to provide consent, do we hold one of them more responsible for the act than the other or is it just an opportunity to tell people wise up?

    One thing which contributes mightily to rape culture is the notion of “getting a chick drunk” so she can be fucked. Yes, that is rape.

    If both people are equally intoxicated, it’s probably not a bright idea for either of them to have sex. Both people should be fully capable of enthusiastic consent. It’s simply not a good idea, going out and getting hammered with the idea of getting laid. They are both responsible and yes, it’s an opportunity to say “doing that is a bad idea.”

    I’ve seen this come down either way… two drunk people hook up, wish they hadn’t and move on with their lives… or… two drunk people hook up, she wakes up the next morning knowing she didn’t have the ability to consent and goes to the police. In this case, did a rape take place?

    Regret is one thing, rape is another. If at any point in a hook up, one person says NO or attempts to get out of a sexual act in any way (curls up, shakes their head, cries, etc.), that’s rape.

  111. 111
    Hot Mess

    I should clarify, I am speaking hypothetically. My question is really about the difference between raping someone who is unable to consent, and misconstruing impaired judgment or lowered inhibitions as rape. Deliberately getting someone inebriated is obviously rape, where would you put drunken hook up followed by next day regret. Is any level of drunkenness (willingly entered) enough to nullify consent when they sober up, or is it like anything else where “I was drunk” is no excuse. Sorry if I am difficult to read, I am on my phone.

  112. 112
    SallyStrange

    If you want a legal perspective (I will not offer comment on the morality of inebriated sexual relations and consent), the answer is “it depends”. There was a case a few years back in which the woman involved was charged with rape because she was not as inebriated as the man, but the situation can go the other way as well, depending on the DA, and, if the case goes to trial, the makeup of the jury.

    Why would a person be wondering about the legal perspective in the first place? Seriously. The idea is that if you’re not certain then it’s probably a bad idea. Subscribe to that simple principle and you will never need to fret about this difficult area of the law.

    Change the frame, A.R.

  113. 113
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    BattleAubergine, nothing that is said on this blog with help you get sleep tonight. But it seems that you are going about the aftermath in a useful way. In the long run, this is to your benefit.

    Please keep in mind, some of the very out spoken women at this blog have been through a similar situation as you. They have been open about and are willing to share their experiences and well as try to give advise. If not on this thread, anytime at the endless thread.

    Good luck with everything. But, as I said before, it seems that you are trying to do something about it. This speaks very well for you and who you are.

  114. 114
    Inaji

    feralboy12:

    If you suspect that a woman’s capacity to make decisions is diminished, yet go ahead and make a play for sex anyway, you are at the very least taking advantage of a woman’s vulnerability, using an imbalance of power to reduce or eliminate her ability to say “no.”
    If that isn’t rape, it’s close enough for me not to go there.

    QFT and Emphasis. Excellent.

  115. 115
    SallyStrange

    Deliberately getting someone inebriated is obviously rape, where would you put drunken hook up followed by next day regret.

    I have had sex I regretted the next day. More than once. And guess what? I never once accused anyone of rape because of it. It makes me extremely angry that there are people like you who think that this is anything but a misogynist rape apologist fabrication. Are you ignorant or malignant? That’s what asking a question like that leaves me wondering.

    Is any level of drunkenness (willingly entered) enough to nullify consent when they sober up, or is it like anything else where “I was drunk” is no excuse.

    Any level of doubt as to whether your partner is 100% enthusiastic about sex with you should be a deal-breaker. That is, if you are a decent human being.

  116. 116
    Dhorvath, OM

    ara,
    If someone didn’t consent how can you question whether a rape occurred?

  117. 117
    A. R

    Hot Mess: I think the general opinion of those on the thread is that if there is any doubt, avoid the situation. You’ll never rape anyone if you stick to clear and enthusiastic consent. Avoid the grey at all costs!

  118. 118
    Inaji

    Hot Mess:

    Is any level of drunkenness (willingly entered) enough to nullify consent when they sober up, or is it like anything else where “I was drunk” is no excuse.

    Hot Mess, see feralboy12′s comment @107. It answers your questions beautifully. The whole notion of “get drunk and fuck” needs to go away. Happy, enthusiastic consent on both sides needs to be the norm and encouraged.

    It really doesn’t even matter if someone is in a relationship, because rape happens in relationships too. Drunken or seriously impaired fucking simply isn’t a brilliant idea. While one person may be too impaired to enthusiastically consent, the other person can be to impaired to hear or understand resistance.

  119. 119
    A. R

    While one person may be too impaired to enthusiastically consent, the other person can be to impaired to hear or understand resistance.

    QFT

  120. 120
    Dhorvath, OM

    Is any level of drunkenness (willingly entered) enough to nullify consent when they sober up, or is it like anything else where “I was drunk” is no excuse.

    There is no level of drunkeness that absolves us of caring for other people’s needs. This is not about whether or not a person can give consent drunk, but about whether another should receive it while they themselves are drinking or while the person who is giving it is drunk. If you are in any doubt, don’t.

  121. 121
    Hot Mess

    Apparently I was unclear, I was not talking about accusing someone of rape, I was asking if a rape took place. If I had a drunken hook up, would bring drunk mean I am unable to give consent. And if the next day I regret it despite my enthusiastic consent at the time, does my sober regret trump my drunk enthusiasm.

  122. 122
    ara

    Thanks all. I just want to clarify that this isn’t like I’m looking for a gray definition so I can claim that I didn’t know better later. I”m happily married; just curious what the perspective is.

    On that note.
    @116, my point isn’t to claim that rape may or may not occur when consent isn’t given. I’m not talking about explicit consent issues like someone saying “No” … I’m talking about implicit consent issues, specifically ones in which neither party is capable of implicitly consenting.

    Like I said, I’m not looking for tips on how to engage potential partners or how to have good sex… just curious what the stance is on issues of implied consent when neither party can theoretically provide it.

  123. 123
    SallyStrange

    No way! The ultrafems are – on a thread about rape – using the verb “fuck” so lightly as this? Cheeses Christ, the irony and hypocrisy are drowning me. Also: porcupine, anus: same thing. Y’all are cicky hypocrites. Sickocrites?

    “Ultrafem”? Why thanks.

    OM my left butt cheek. Trollfail.

  124. 124
    SallyStrange

    just curious what the stance is on issues of implied consent when neither party can theoretically provide it.

    But why? Why do you feel so curious about it? This is an honest question, I sincerely don’t understand your motivation.

  125. 125
    crowepps

    #4. At the very least, I disagree with @crowepps’s characterization of it. Women policing themselves (watching each other, not going home with anyone) is already being done. And while it did save me from a completed (rather than just attempted) rape, I think it’s still a shade away from victim blaming.

    So it works, but you would rather it was unnecessary? I’ll agree to that. I was not in any way attempting to blame the victim, but instead to emphasize that groups who make pacts of mutual protection are safer.

  126. 126
    A. R

    ara: Implied consent does not apply to this situation in my opinion, if you cannot give consent, you cannot consent.

  127. 127
    Tethys

    , does my sober regret trump my drunk enthusiasm

    Yes, it should.

    You are responsible for your actions, including the act of imbibing mood altering chemicals.

    Drunk drivers aren’t allowed to say “Oh, I was so drunk I didn’t realize that I was over the legal limit for driving.”

  128. 128
    Inaji

    Sally:

    Trollfail.

    It’s just another of the hogglers. PZ asked us to ignore them, he’ll clean up as he goes.

  129. 129
    hotshoe

    Cupholder

    the irony and hypocrisy are drowning me.

    Drown away. I’ll be sure to resist the impulse to throw you a lifesaving ring.

  130. 130
    Inaji

    Tethys:

    Drunk drivers aren’t allowed to say “Oh, I was so drunk I didn’t realize that I was over the legal limit for driving.”

    And there ya go. Drunk driving did not used to carry the stigma it does now. It took a lot of outraged people and a whole lot of campaigning to change the social attitude about driving drunk. The same thing needs to be done in regard to fucking drunk.

  131. 131
    A. R

    Cupholder, not sure if you’re aware of this, but OM is an award given out here for distinguished blogging. Please remove it from your username, or insert a decaying echidna into your orifice of choice.

  132. 132
    Tethys

    Fuck you blockquote!

    And cupholder too!

  133. 133
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    A ‘culture of fear’ is quite a sweeping generalization, wouldn’t you agree?

    No. I would not agree. Girls and women are taught to be fearful because one in six of them will be raped. Even more will be assaulted. Only someone hopelessly out of touch with reality or with a vested interest in making rape acceptable would make that argument (well, there may be other reasons, but I kinna grok what they would be). Which are you: out of touch with reality or a rapist/rape enabler?

    I still don’t see why rape is fundamentally different from the ordinary crime of battery.

    Are you shitting me? If I get beaten up outside a bar, I do not run the risk of sexually transmitted diseases, unwanted pregnancy, or (if I report it) having half the people I know blame me, say I asked for it, or that I deserved it. If a woman is raped, she gets that and more. Are you that out of touch with reality? or are you a rapist/rape enabler?

    I have no problem with the rape culture paradigm

    Obviously. You seem to realy like it. Or at least the effects that allow you to view women as less than fully human.

    Odds are high that you are chock full of privileges that as yet have no name.

    You may be correct. I’d wager, though, that Caine recognizes whatever privilege actually exists and accounts for it in personal interaction.

    Oh. Banhammer. Damn. Well, I’ll post this anyway.

    This is probably as good a place to ask, when you say sex with a drunk person is rape, are we talking sloppy doesnt know where they are or what’s going on drunk, or would you say regular drunk. If the former I fully agree and find the bastards disgusting, in the case of the latter. I am afraid I don’t understand why.

    If a person is unable to make an informed decision, if their judgement is impaired, then it is rape. Why is this even a question? If you wonder whether she might be impaired, then err on the side of caution and find a way to meet when you are both sober.

    In cases where both parties to a sex act are inebriated or intoxicated in some way, are both equally responsible for having sex with a non-consenting partner? If both people are unable to provide consent, do we hold one of them more responsible for the act than the other or is it just an opportunity to tell people wise up?

    I think what Caine wrote in 105 is about the best answer you’re gonna get. Err on the side of caution. Aim for informed enthusiastic consent. For both parties.

    My question is really about the difference between raping someone who is unable to consent, and misconstruing impaired judgment or lowered inhibitions as rape.

    Impaired judgement is inability to ethusiastically consent. Lowered inhibitions is a sign that someone is unable to consent. Stay out of the grey.

  134. 134
    Dhorvath, OM

    ara,
    I would just as soon people ditch implicit consent altogether. Sex is explicit! Embrace that, talk about it, get consent, give it, shout it out, never assume.

  135. 135
    Inaji

    hotshoe, please see here.

  136. 136
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Cupholder, who are you? Be honest, sooner or later, PZ will get around to exposing you.

    Bloody stupid git.

  137. 137
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Wow, did I bork the blockqtuoes, or what? I’ve seen shales with less interbedding.

  138. 138
    Inaji

    Janine, see PZ’s post about the slimepit crew’s latest. They aren’t worth a derail.

  139. 139
    Hot Mess

    Tethys that was the point I was trying to get at, It just makes the issue of when can you no longer give consent important. If someone is choosing to drink and then chooses to drive, that is their fault. If someone chooses to drink and then has sex, they were raped because they can’t give consent. I wholeheartedly agree with the former, I have a hard time agreeing with the latter. I can’t see a way around allowing consent to be void because you were inebriated while all other drunken decisions are regarded as if done sober. I may find it unwise but I cant say it’s different from any other activity.

  140. 140
    Tethys

    A.R.

    I’m quite sure that’s exactly why cupholder is using OM.

    Please desist from explaining Pharagula to the trolls. Considering the short amount of time you have been commenting, and the slight deception you used in your first nym, I am finding it rather obnoxious for you to presume any authority.

  141. 141
    SallyStrange

    Of course. Another hoggler. Yes, ignoring is likely the way to go. Feh.

    Bon soir, tout le monde!

  142. 142
    honeymaid88

    @crowepps

    So it works, but you would rather it was unnecessary? I’ll agree to that. I was not in any way attempting to blame the victim, but instead to emphasize that groups who make pacts of mutual protection are safer.

    I know you weren’t attempting to blame the victim. I was pointing out that, while you almost certainly meant well, you were still putting the responsibility of not getting raped upon the rape victims. A far more *effective* tactic would be to ask the DUDE what he’s planning and where he’s going and if he knows that yes means yes. Not asking the drunk girl if she’s ok.

    Side note: my attempted rape was foiled by a friend who came looking for me and instead of going where she thought I was, *got lost* and found me anyway. I’ve not been raped because of sheer dumb luck. And I hope that luck holds out.

  143. 143
    Inaji

    Hot Mess:

    If someone chooses to drink and then has sex, they were raped because they can’t give consent.

    Oh FFS. You are rapidly leaning toward the rape apologist fuckwit side of things here.

    If a person is so impaired they can’t consent, then it can hardly be said they chose to have sex. What about that don’t you fucking get?

    Why in the hell do you think one of the most popular methods of rape is to get someone drunk or slip a drug into a drink? Try using your damn brain and thinking about it.

    You have been answered, over and over. If you come up with this same crap again, I for one, am gonna get nasty.

  144. 144
    ara

    @125 why not be? it seems like this is the sort of thing that can certainly happen, and can have negative effects on all people involved. If it’s possible for two non-consenting parties to have sex, is it just to punish one of them for the sex act? On the other hand, is there always an offending party in a case like this, who should clearly be held accountable for the rape of another.

    @135 while a noble goal, the idea that all parties to a sex act are going to sit down and have a frank discussion about it first (or not sit down.. maybe they’re shouting it from the rooftops) seems to be unlikely. I agree that reliance on implicit consent isn’t a good place to be, though.

  145. 145
    Finisterre

    “And if the next day I regret it despite my enthusiastic consent at the time, does my sober regret trump my drunk enthusiasm.”

    As SallyStrange said above, it’s questions like this that seriously cast doubt on your good faith. Please stop pretending not to understand what is meant by ‘enthusiastic consent’. You are, probably perfectly consciously, echoing a common and extremely damaging rape culture myth that women who merely regret having sex routinely decide to allege rape. This is bullshit.

    No-one here has come close to suggesting that consent can be retroactively withdrawn, so just stop it.

  146. 146
    Inaji

    ara:

    @125

    Protip: people have been polite enough to use your nym, ara. Return the fucking favour. We are not numbers.

    Also, learn to blockquote. It helps. There are handy hints on html above the comment box. If you still don’t get it, see here.

  147. 147
    ara

    …sorry, I’ve got a sleeping baby in one hand and scrolling up to find post numbers is about as good as it gets at the moment.

  148. 148
    hotshoe
    , does my sober regret trump my drunk enthusiasm

    Yes, it should.

    You are responsible for your actions, including the act of imbibing mood altering chemicals.

    Drunk drivers aren’t allowed to say “Oh, I was so drunk I didn’t realize that I was over the legal limit for driving.”

    Hmm, I see a disconnect between what I think Hot Mess is trying to get at, and what this reply is answering to.

    Hot Mess, are you saying that you have had enthusiastic – but drunk – sex with both you and your partner’s consent, only that the next morning you regretted it (for whatever reason) ? Has this scenario already happened to you ?

    Drunken and enthusiastically consented-to sex is not rape – as long as you and your partner are both still competent enough to meaningfully consent (and competent to withdraw consent, if the situation gets icky). But only you and whoever you were having sex with know whether you were too drunk or whether you were still on the competent side of the line. As far as I know, there’s no blood-alcohol level that legally defines “too drunk to consent” the way it defines “too drunk to drive”.

    Where I see Tethys reply as pertinent is that you can’t expect to have it both ways – you can’t give yourself advance permission to have drunken uninhibited sex, set out to drink yourself into that state, and then later blame the evil liquor for the fact that you behaved irresponsibly.

  149. 149
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    If someone chooses to drink and then has sex, they were raped because they can’t give consent. I wholeheartedly agree with the former, I have a hard time agreeing with the latter.

    Bullshit. Pure and total bullshit. A person under a certain age (it does vary from state to state) is considered unable to consent to sexual activity because his or her brain is not fully developed. They are unable to give consent because their decision making process is impaired by the immaturity of the brain. If a human adult imbibes enough alcohol, their decision making process is impaired. They are unable to give consent because the alcohol is inhibiting brain function.

    I think your drunk driver analogy is not a good one. A drunk driver is impaired and they are unable to make the decisions driving requires. A drunk person is impaired and they are unable to make the decisions required for consenting sex.

    Why do I get the feeling that you are trying, quite desperately at this point, to find some ameliorating circumstance which means that, although those other asshole men are rapists, you are not?

  150. 150
    Inaji

    Ogvorbis:

    Why do I get the feeling that you are trying, quite desperately at this point, to find some ameliorating circumstance which means that, although those other asshole men are rapists, you are not?

    You aren’t alone in that feeling.

  151. 151
    hotshoe

    hotshoe, please see here.

    Sorry, didn’t know.

    Ahh, hell, Abbie, why did ya have to go and whip up more froth in the slimepit.

  152. 152
    Tethys

    If someone chooses to drink and then has sex, they were raped because they can’t give consent

    Just as you are careful not to drive drunk, you should also be careful to avoid hooking-up while drunk.

    If you are so impaired that you are unable to give consent, or remember if your partner has given consent, you run the risk of committing a crime.

    Decent human beings understand this. Rapists use this to their advantage.

    Distinguish yourself from a rapist by avoiding the behavior.

  153. 153
    hotshoe

    Ogvorbis:

    Why do I get the feeling that you are trying, quite desperately at this point, to find some ameliorating circumstance which means that, although those other asshole men are rapists, you are not?

    You aren’t alone in that feeling.

    Uh-oh. Is Hot Mess the perpetrator in this scenario ?

    I got the feeling HM was the “victim”, the person who woke up the next morning feeling a little remorse for having taken stupid chances but willing to admit that at least it had been his/her own idea at the time …

    Darn. I hate it when I’m not cynical enough.

  154. 154
    Gregory Greenwood

    Cupholder, OM @ 122,

    Firstly, are you entitled to that OM tag you are using? I can’t seem to find you on the list of mollies.

    No way! The ultrafems are – on a thread about rape – using the verb “fuck” so lightly as this?

    Oh dear. ‘Ultrafems’? You may as well have simply worn a large sign saying ‘male supremacist on patrol’ about your neck. At least it is marginally more ortiginal that ‘feminazi’, I’ll give you that.

    Also, the use of the term ‘fuck’ in this context is pretty clearly simply a standard expression of outrage at the ongoing bigotted idiocy of the swarms of male supremacist trolls that routinely infest every single thread even tangentially related to feminism. Attempting to police the language of the local feminists on Pahryngula will avail you little other than an invitation to get to know a decomposing porcupine rather well.

    On the subject of which;

    Also: porcupine, anus: same thing.

    This is an established meme of pharyngula used to express distaste for particularly obnoxious trolls. And again, tone trolling doesn’t go down well here, so knock it off along with your clearly false concern over the impact of language on rape survivors.

    Cheeses Christ, the irony and hypocrisy are drowning me.

    You have seen the male supremacist jerks that inhabit these threads and regularly minimise the horror of rape, dismiss the accounts and experiences of rape survivors, and even openly deny the personhood of women, and you complain about what you laughably term the ‘hypocrisy’ of the feminist commenters here?

    Wow. You are about to get (purely figuratively) ripped to pieces for that. Enjoy.

    Y’all are cicky hypocrites. Sickocrites?

    Oh, breaking out the extra broad brushstrokes today, are we? In case you hadn’t realised, oblivious morons spewing their male privilege and rape apologia on a blog which is frequented by many feminists and a fair number of rape survivors will trigger a degree of anger. It is most unfortunate if this genuine and justified response to MRA blathering hurts your delicate sensibilities, but you don’t get to invalidate people’s responses to misogyny or sit in judgement over how rape survivors treat with blatent rape apologists just because you have decided to appoint yourself arbiter of acceptable internet discourse.

  155. 155
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Uh-oh. Is Hot Mess the perpetrator in this scenario ?

    I got the feeling HM was the “victim”, the person who woke up the next morning feeling a little remorse for having taken stupid chances but willing to admit that at least it had been his/her own idea at the time …

    I have no way of knowing, short of Hot Mess being honest. From what I have read here, I suspect (and I may be wrong) that Hot Mess may have had sex with a woman (or man, no idea if Hot Mess is male or female (I suspect male, but it is notoriously hard to tell on this part of the internet)) who was somewhere between tipsy and shitfaced and is now worried that he might have committed rape. And if this is what happened, and Hot Mess is feeling guilty about it, and if Hot Mess is willing to learn, this might be a teachable moment which will change Hot Mess’ future behaviour.

    The preceding paragraph is based solely on Hot Mess’ writings on this thread, as interpreted in my own head. If I am wrong, I apologize beforehand. If I am right, I hope that my optimism is well-founded regarding the educability of Hot Mess.

  156. 156
    leepicton

    Since I use my real name, forgive me for being, um, a little non-specific about certain details. A few years ago, there were a number of rapes at off campus parties hosted by middies at the U.S. Naval academy. The rapes were verified by the rape crisis nurse on duty. Shocking accusations were flying in all directions, and the press had a field day.
    Fast forward a few years when I had occasion to be talking to a former graduate and Lieutenant from the academy, who brought up the subject when he found out I lived in Maryland. His take was nothing short of appalling and I was too shocked even to take him to task. In short, women had no business attending the service academies and if they were raped, it was because they were asking for it. I didn’t even have the presence of mind to ask if he knew what being and officer and a gentleman meant. Although obviously, he didn’t, and was a representative of the ultimate in male privilege. Yes, Onion Girl, it is the culture that must be changed, and I would never keep silent in the present day. I am an old lady and can say what I damn well please now, without having to suffer any repercussions about it. I just hope the young’uns can do it, too.

  157. 157
    Carlie

    We don’t absolve drunk people of hitting someone else while driving a car, because the harm is still done and the person shouldn’t have been driving while impaired. Sex should be viewed the same way. Edmonton ran a campaign aimed at raising awareness not to have sex while drunk, due to the possible rapes that might result. What’s the harm in training yourself to not have sex while drunk, the same way you’ve trained yourself not to drive while drunk? Ok, so there might be a drunk woman falling all over you and asking you back to her place. If you give her your number and tell her you won’t take advantage of her but would love to see her again, you might even be better off later once she sobers up and realizes you respected those boundaries.

  158. 158
    Carlie

    …to continue a bit, it’s again part of the rape culture. “Oh, we were just drunk” is still viewed as a valid excuse for sex that both didn’t quite consent to. Do you ever hear someone say “Oh, we were just drunk” when somebody runs over someone else with a car? No, you don’t, because we’ve made it such a cultural no-no that there is no excuse to do it. It’s appalling just thinking about it. Rape culture is what makes us think the first version is ok, even though it’s the same basic situation as the second.

  159. 159
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Thank you for sharing, leepicton. But I doubt that being an old woman a few decades ago would have gave you the awareness to call that MRA on his bullshit. You were raised in that toxic environment just as surely as that rape apologist was. But you learned to recognize what is around you.

  160. 160
    Inaji

    Gregory:

    Cupholder, OM @ 122,

    How many times does it need to be said? Ignore.

  161. 161
    Amphiox

    No way! The ultrafems are – on a thread about rape – using the verb “fuck” so lightly as this?

    And why not?

    You see, that word is synonymous with the SECOND WORD of the TWO WORD phrase that is the topic of this thread, and we don’t have any problem at all with that second word.

    It is the FIRST WORD, and only the first word, of that two word phrase, that we are concerned about here.

  162. 162
    A. R

    Amphiox, OM: PZ has asked us to ignore the trolls on this thread. See the link in Caine’s above post.

  163. 163
    ara

    Caine, Fleur du Mal عنتر, re: 147

    Since you brought up the subject of etiquette, might I point out that when correcting someone or requesting something of them, the less condescending/more polite you are, the more likely you are to be taken seriously in said request or correction.

    Great example:

    It helps. There are handy hints on html above the comment box. If you still don’t get it, see here.

    Poor example:

    Protip: … Return the fucking favour.

  164. 164
    A. R

    ara: Please avoid tone trolling (http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_troll), I really don’t want to see another person slaughtered here for that particular offense. Cheers!

  165. 165
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Hot Mess,
    Let me try to lay it out for you. I, like others, am a bit skeptical as to your bona fides, but here goes.
    Alright. Person A and Person B walk into a bar. (Person A hits it, Person B ducks…haha)
    Each of them could have several possible motivations: they could (1) not want to get drunk and not want to have sex; (2) they could want to get drunk and not have sex; (3) they could want to have sober sex; or (4) they could want to have drunk sex.

    Option (4) is unwise and unhealthy, but can be done in an okay manner.

    If Person A wants to have sex with Person B, and Person B disagrees and Person A overrules their objection using force or coercion, then it is rape. Alcohol or not. If Person A gets Person B drunk/slips a roofie in order to lower their inhibitions to get them to have sex, then it is rape.

    Here’s a kicker – if Person A would be willing, hypothetically, to have sex with Person B and/or has had consensual sex with them previously, just not right now/not here/not without a condom/etc and Person B makes them (by using force, coercion, getting them drunk, etc) then it is also rape. See abusive relationships for an example.

    But! If BOTH people are willing to have sex, neither fed the other booze and/or roofies in order to get their inhibitions down and there is an absence of force and coercion, then you are in the magical zone known as CONSENT. Hooray!

    Also: Morning-after regret is not the same as rape. I’ve had sex I’ve regretted. I’ve had sex I’ve really regretted, not just the next morning, but for months and years afterwards. I’ve had ill-advised drunk sex. And yet – I have never been raped. I consented each time, and was not coerced. I don’t bear ill-will towards my erstwhile partners, just regret and a sense of, “…right then.”

  166. 166
    Inaji

    ara:

    Poor example:

    Your concern is noted. I’m just an ignorant OM, ya know.

  167. 167
    Gregory Greenwood

    Hot Mess @ 140;

    Tethys that was the point I was trying to get at, It just makes the issue of when can you no longer give consent important. If someone is choosing to drink and then chooses to drive, that is their fault. If someone chooses to drink and then has sex, they were raped because they can’t give consent.

    This is a poor analogy. There are specific laws dealing with the blood alcohol percentage at which a person is no longer fit to drive, but there is no such equivalent for when a person is no longer capable of giving consent, and it is precisely within this ambiguity that date rapists try to hide.

    In any case, you have just likened a woman who is raped while drunk to a person who commits the crime of driving while over the legal limit. Whether you are aware of it or not, this is a pretty clear case of blaming the victim, and it serves to replicate a particularly toxic meme of rape culture that states that if a woman becomes inebriated then she puts herself in a position where she is ‘asking for it’.

    I can’t see a way around allowing consent to be void because you were inebriated while all other drunken decisions are regarded as if done sober. I may find it unwise but I cant say it’s different from any other activity.

    You honestly can’t conceive of a scenario where someone might deliberately ply another person with alcohol to the point where they are incompetent to give consent, and then exploit that ambiguity to claim that consent was given when the victim cannot remember what happened and so cannot gainsay them?

    You do realise that, according to your logic, the use of date rape drugs like rhohipnol would also not be considered rape? Because if a decision made while intoxicated is equal to a decision made sober, and the inability to remember one way or the other what happened doesn’t amount to a lack of consent, then it follows that it also isn’t a factor what type of intoxicant was in effect, or even whether or not the victim knew they were taking it.

    You are in serious danger of sliding into rape apology territory here.

  168. 168
    razzlefrog

    My university recently handed me a pamphlet for a large presentation on how to “minimize your chances of rape”. I felt a little insulted but I sighed and grudgingly kept in mind they likely didn’t understand my frustration and probably meant nothing obscene by it. They don’t approve of rape, they’re just missing the final realm of understanding, which then would drive home the “it’s not my job to ‘prevent rape’, it’s your job not to” policy.

    Although, granted, it probably would be kinda hard to get people to come to a “Don’t Be A Damn Fucking Rapist, You Asshole” seminar.

  169. 169
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    ara:

    And sometimes rudeness is absofuckinglutely apropriate.

  170. 170
    Gregory Greenwood

    Caine, Fleur du Mal @ 161;

    Sorry. Message received. Consider Cupcake stricken from the memory banks.

  171. 171
    Inaji

    A.R. @165 and elsewhwere, stop being a toady. You are not the Pharyngula tour guide, and this shit does not make up for being such an asshole when you first showed up.

  172. 172
    JediBear

    #2 might be the hardest, but they’re all pretty tough.

    As I’ve commented before, one of the real challenges for a would-be feminist ally is *finding* the situations where your intervention would be useful.

    Just because it’s tough and our resources are limited doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do our level best, though.

  173. 173
    Inaji

    JediBear:

    one of the real challenges for a would-be feminist ally is *finding* the situations where your intervention would be useful.

    Yeah, you’re no “ally”. Any human being who has a vested interest in seeing women treated as full human beings is aware that those situations are *everywhere*. Time to take the red pill. Rape and assault are the result of viewing women as lesser beings, as things.

  174. 174
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Of the four suggestions in the OP, all are doable but require effort.

    #1 requires men to listen to women. Seems simple, but anyone here who’s female-bodied (or -perceived) could likely give a lengthy speech on how frequently this doesn’t happen. And in many cases, it doesn’t matter if 95% of men present are decent about it – one d00d showing up and whining about how he just needs to say this can ruin everything. Which leads into #2 – when douchenozzles show up, they need to get condemned by men. This is hard, due to peer pressure.

    #3, I think is the kicker. If I had to pick ONE thing to happen, it would be this one – because if women could speak frankly and be heard, then I think the other three would flow naturally.

    #4 is something that I see happening, mostly with women looking out for each other, but it does need to be extended to men calling out other men, to women calling out men.

    So yeah. Doable. Hard. 100% necessary.

  175. 175
    crowepps

    while you almost certainly meant well, you were still putting the responsibility of not getting raped upon the rape victims.

    I live in Alaska. When people go hunting they use patterns of behavior traditionally successful to stay safe in the woods from predators. There isn’t any question that if they are attacked it’s ‘their fault’ or ‘their responsibility’. The only thing that is their ‘responsibility’ is to be wary of and defend against predators.

    While 100% of the fault for rape belongs squarely on the shoulders of the rapist who chooses that behavior, IMO opinion it is as much a waste of time to scold a serial rapist on the internet in hopes of changing his behavior as it would be to scold a bear. It is far more effective to attempt to change the behavior of the OTHER people around him, whose actions perpetuate the rape culture itself, so that the predator shows up as isolated and obviously deviant, vulnerable to capture.

    Individuals who happen to cross the predator’s path are absolutely not responsible for the predator’s presence or actions, since HE is deliberately stalking THEM, but in order to solve this problem, the GROUP should be aware of the possibility of a predator’s presence, alert to predator-like behavior and willing to call people on it, and proactive in protecting all group members regardless of gender. This would have the valuable secondary benefit of both clearly defining rapey behaviors for the group members and making them taboo.

    When a crime is endemic, it is because society tolerates it, and mutual protection pacts aren’t blaming the victim at all but instead one of the ways that groups can signal they no longer intend to do so.

  176. 176
    hotshoe

    When a crime is endemic, it is because society tolerates it, and mutual protection pacts aren’t blaming the victim at all but instead one of the ways that groups can signal they no longer intend to do so.

    I like that idea.

  177. 177
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    My family and I are working on improving the security of the ‘in-law’ apartment I live in, on the side of the house- new locks, increased security, and for both my personal health and well-being (both physical and mental), a very happy if protective Doberman puppy named Lucy (named, of course, for the Mr. Deity character.)

    So, I’m kind of all thumbs with condolences, but:

    I installed this system, with some extra sensors, in my apartment after it was burglarized in May 2009. I’ve been very satisfied with it, particularly with the keyfob remote control. I don’t know what shipping is like where you are but this might contribute somewhat to improving your peace of mind.

    “May it be of no use.”

  178. 178
    Cipher

    I’m so sorry, Aubergine. You must be hurting a lot right now, and I hope you have people around you to support you. Thank you for feeling safe enough to share what happened to you here. This thread – it’s going to get/stay nasty and triggering. They usually do. You probably know, but it sometimes bears repeating for all our sakes: it is perfectly okay to not be able to slog through any more of the toxic rape-apologist shit that tends to accumulate in these threads, and it doesn’t make you weak to need a break or to bow out of these sorts of discussions altogether. But I second the suggestion to come by TET and pull up a chair. We’re nice when we’re not stomping trolls.

  179. 179
    Cipher

    Sorry, BattleAubergine. I was going to correct that and then I forgot.

  180. 180
    crowepps

    Although, granted, it probably would be kinda hard to get people to come to a “Don’t Be A Damn Fucking Rapist, You Asshole” seminar.

    I suppose if the college was really SERIOUS about the problem they might require the seminar of all new students during orientation.

  181. 181
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    . If someone is choosing to drink and then chooses to drive, that is their fault. If someone chooses to drink and then has sex, they were raped because they can’t give consent.

    Because the fucking involves a decision on the part of the person fucking them, whereas a person driving drunk does not. A car does not observe that a person is drunk and decide to allow itself to be driven anyway, much less encourage a person to drive it. That’s the difference.

    If the parties are equally intoxicated I’d say placing blame is pretty pointless. But if you’re sober and knowingly* fucking someone who’s inebriated to the point of affected judgment, you don’t have meaningful consent.

    *Knowingly, because, say, a person who was married to a raging alcoholic and had sex with them, at their invitation, while they were shitfaced but not incontrovertibly so, and insistently denying it, really shouldn’t be held responsible. I hope. :/

  182. 182
    sandiseattle

    Caine:

    wanna explain “sabotage PET”?? What are you talking about there?

  183. 183
    Sophia

    A young man is at a party, the drinks are flowing, he isn’t counting. He’s having a fabulous time, all his friends are there, the celebration is underway. There is a young woman there that he knows. She is extremely interested in him, and has been for quite a while, months. The man knows this, but he isn’t interested, so he is always polite but careful to keep his distance. He is a respectful, honorable man, he does not want to lead her on.

    Back to the party, he is beginning to feel quite good, he has lost some inhibitions, has been talking to women quite comfortably without any reservations, he is back with his buddies and they start doing shots of tequila. He joins in. Soon after, the girl who likes him, is close, she is flirting with him, touching his arm. He tries to do what he always does, to be polite but distant, but her hand feels good on his arm, she’s smiling, and laughing, he thinks, this is okay, we are all just having fun. He does not realise how drunk he has become. She takes his hand, leads him away and brings him to a room away from the crowd. She undresses him, and when he pauses, she puts her finger to his lips, “shhhh” she says, then her mouth replaces her finger.. He goes with it, too drunk to resist. They have sex.

    The next day, he feels that it was a horrible thing, that he should have stopped her, he should have said no. This isn’t like him. He is full of remorse, he is angry, and dreads what is to come when he encounters her again. The entire situation makes him feel so out of control, so much regret. He can’t believe he got that drunk, he is extremely upset that it happened. Full of shame.

    so, is this rape?

  184. 184
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    I’m so sorry for what you went through, BattleAubergine. I hope you’ve got support around you, and that the investigation goes well. I’m a survivor as well, and that shit does change you, forever.

    The worthless piece of human filth who raped me was my ex. And yeah, he was big on seeking affirmation of his predatory shit from his friends, who were our mutual friends. Little “jokes”. And they almost all supported him and turned away from me afterward. It is important for everyone, but especially other dudes to stand up to this behaviour. Being a sexual predator should fucking well have a stigma.

  185. 185
    ara

    A.R.
    I don’t know how that was tone trolling. I don’t give a shit if people curse, I was just pointing out that being polite helps when asking something of others, especially on a “first offense” sort of case.

    Caine
    I don’t know what an OM is, so the content of your message is lost on me. Though I get the feeling it was sarcastic. :-/

  186. 186
    Cipher

    so, is this rape?

    Um, yeah. I’d say so.
    So, was that a fictional story or not? Because if it was fictional, you can go ahead and take that shit out of here.

  187. 187
    A. R

    ara: That’s why Pharyngula has a three post rule. (Sorry for being tour guidey again)

  188. 188
    Cipher

    I was just pointing out that being polite helps when asking something of others,
    I get that you’re new here so here’s some advice for you: don’t try to offer “helpful suggestions” like that without lurking a bit. Chances are, we have heard your song before, and it is not our favorite.
    Here’s what an OM is.

  189. 189
    Cipher

    Here’s another piece of advice: preview is your friend. Saves you from the kind of HTML fail that I just made.

  190. 190
    sandiseattle

    ara: I had to learn what OM was too. Check out the tab up top labeled “Mollies”. ( I thot at first it meant Official Moderator, sounded good and seemed logical, at least when i was a noob here.)

  191. 191
    Inaji

    Sophia:

    so, is this rape?

    Yes. Happy now?

  192. 192
    sandiseattle

    Dang CC beat me to it. C’est la vie!

  193. 193
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Sophia,
    What the fuck is your point?

  194. 194
    Kamaka

    A.R @188

    Sorry for being tour guidey again

    Bullshit. That’s all you’ve done on this thread.

    Contribute something to the discussion, or do like me and just read.

  195. 195
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    *prepares platter of porcupines for Sophia*

    Sheesh.

  196. 196
    Cipher

    What the fuck is your point?

    If I’m understanding correctly, the point is to come in here and disrupt discussions and trigger the fuck out of the real survivors posting here by posing fictional scenarios and going “Is it rape now? How about now?” Hoping to trap us somehow, but not really caring so long as xe gets hir kicks and dilutes the actual conversation going on here.

  197. 197
    Inaji

    Audley:

    What the fuck is your point?

    My money is on attempting to pull off a “you don’t care about the menz!” in what “Sophia” thinks is a clever way.

  198. 198
    Inaji

    Kamaka:

    Contribute something to the discussion, or do like me and just read.

    Word. And speaking of reading, got the books! Thank you. /derail

  199. 199
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Sophia:

    Yes, it is rape. As had been said by myself in this thread,

    If a human adult imbibes enough alcohol, their decision making process is impaired. They are unable to give consent because the alcohol is inhibiting brain function.

    Others have written similarly. Did you read the thread before posting your comment/question?

  200. 200
    'Tis Himself

    Esteleth #175

    So yeah. Doable. Hard. 100% necessary.

    I’m working on it.

    Yeah, it was a while ago but I’m still feeling guilty about it.

  201. 201
    crowepps

    Because the fucking involves a decision on the part of the person fucking them, whereas a person driving drunk does not.

    QFT

  202. 202
    Inaji

    ‘Tis:

    I’m working on it.

    That counts. That makes a difference. We all let shit slide that we shouldn’t, we all have to work on it.

  203. 203
    feralboy12

    @Sophia:

    If you’re trying to write a letter to Penthouse, you need to start at least one paragraph with the words “Well, needless to say…”

    Also, this isn’t Penthouse. You can tell by the distinct lack of out-of-focus pictures.

  204. 204
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Sofia,
    Awe, the consensus seems to be that you’re a scumbag!

  205. 205
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    I’m working on it.

    The first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging it exists. You gotta start somewhere.

    We all fail. As much as we try, we’ll backslide at some point. The trick is to recognize this and keep working at it. Eventually, it’ll get easier.

  206. 206
    Jessa

    Poor Sophia. Tried to fish for a double standard, and came up empty.

  207. 207
    anbheal

    That’s nonsense about rapes and beatings being equivalent. I grew up in a shitty city. I got in a lot of fights, mostly on the defensive end (I was small, smart, and mouthy)….but as that last adjective indicates, I had already inflicted my own injuries, thrown a first punch of a sort, and my verbal ones carried a nice head-snap to their jab. I suffered a few beatings that got into the scary zone.

    Only once was there a suggestion that the beating might culminate in penetration. That was a horse of a different color. Of few things am I more certain.

    Plus, a lot of macho beatdowns (outside of minority-bashings, ahem) are all about gorilla chest-pounding. That is NEVER the case in rape. There has never been a cornered drunken college woman who glowered at her assailant and hissed:”what the fuck are YOU lookin’ at, you PUSSY?”, as she grabbed a truncheon.

  208. 208
    A. R

    Jessa: My thoughts exactly, and why I didn’t comment on their question. I get the feeling that much of what anti-feminists do is troll for double standards. (I’ve not had my major red pill moment yet, so feel free to enlighten me if needed)

  209. 209
    Inaji

    anbheal:

    That’s nonsense about rapes and beatings being equivalent.

    Yes, it is and it came from a loathsome and known troll who is once again banned. Hyperon has been arguing that crap from a long way back. 2008 I think. It was his feeling that a rape didn’t last long enough to merit much punishment.

  210. 210
    'Tis Himself

    It was his feeling that a rape didn’t last long enough to merit much punishment.

    I believe the sentiment was something along the lines of “why should 15 minutes work merit 20 years imprisonment?” He was still being shit upon years later for that.

  211. 211
    Geoffrey Brent

    Tip for the benefit of guys who are afraid of false accusations of rape: if you make a point of avoiding predatory behaviour patterns, not only do you make life more pleasant for the women around you, but you also make it much less likely that anybody will believe such accusations if you’re unlucky enough to be targeted by one.

    (Perhaps that should be “even less likely”.)

  212. 212
    anbheal

    CaineFDM –

    I’m so relieved you didn’t eviscerate me! I’m new here, but I’ve seen enough to recognize: you fucking ROCK! I’m just….ya know…scared shitless of you.

    Keep it up!

  213. 213
    sandiseattle

    “didn’t last long enough”? Yeah it takes half a second to pull a trigger, but we still send you to jail.

  214. 214
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Ignore the spaceholder.

  215. 215
    Inaji

    anbheal:

    you fucking ROCK! I’m just….ya know…scared shitless of you.

    :laughing myself silly: Um, thanks. :D

    ‘Tis:

    I believe the sentiment was something along the lines of “why should 15 minutes work merit 20 years imprisonment?”

    Oh…yes. He’s one of the most loathsome ‘people’ I’ve ever had the displeasure to come across.

  216. 216
    Ing

    “didn’t last long enough”? Yeah it takes half a second to pull a trigger, but we still send you to jail.

    Oh fuck you. Don’t pretend you’re a half way decent poster.

  217. 217
    Cipher

    For any awesome newbies who may be sick of reading toxic troll droppings, here’s killfile. Use it wisely.

  218. 218
    Ing

    He was still being shit upon years later for that.

    In a just world he would be under a constant stream of diarrhea

  219. 219
    Inaji

    Go hoggle in private, little hoggler.

  220. 220
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    ‘Tis,

    I believe the sentiment was something along the lines of “why should 15 minutes work merit 20 years imprisonment?”

    Jesus Christ, I remember that shit. I just didn’t realize that it was that long ago*.

    As an aside, I ♥ having a killfile again.

    *Have I really been around here that long?

  221. 221
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Cupholder:

    Why would I capitalize ‘myself’ in the middle of a sentence. It ain’t my ‘nym or my name.

  222. 222
    Inaji

    Ing:

    In a just world he would be under a constant stream of diarrhea

    In a just world, he’d be positioned under a constant stream of diarrhea running into his mouth and down his throat.

  223. 223
    Inaji

    Once again, for those who don’t know, PZ has requested the Slimepitters be ignored. See here.

  224. 224
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Also, keep in mind that Hyperon is out to defend the best and most oppressed people in the world; the white working class male.

  225. 225
    Inaji

    Janine:

    Also, keep in mind that Hyperon is out to defend the best and most oppressed people in the world; the white working class male.

    Yes, those poor, benighted souls. :eyeroll:

  226. 226
    anbheal

    Thanks for the killfile advice. But I find the idiots entertaining. In the way your tongue will repeatedly and against all of your free will be entertained by a regular return to probing a canker sore.

    And besides, how could I appreciate Caine and Sally and some of the better regulars if I suppressed all the shit they’re shitting on?

  227. 227
    Ing

    Do you think that is an appropriate image to use in a sexual violence thread? Do you?

    WELL DO YOU!? WHAT ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF THAT LITTLE GIRL!?

  228. 228
    Ing

    Ah finally got killfile to work…now the question of whether I am S/M enough to keep these idiots visible and hurl verbal abuse or if I block so my subjective world becomes lollypops and dandelions

  229. 229
    Ing

    Thanks for the killfile advice. But I find the idiots entertaining. In the way your tongue will repeatedly and against all of your free will be entertained by a regular return to probing a canker sore.

    I love the imagery

  230. 230
    Cipher

    And besides, how could I appreciate Caine and Sally and some of the better regulars if I suppressed all the shit they’re shitting on?

    My personal advice is to install it anyway and save it for a rainy day :) As for me, my policy is to keep standard-issue chewtoys out of it as long as they’re entertaining, but some trolls really do put out some intolerable triggering shit, and PZ can’t always get to them right away. Plus, there are certain commenters (like Cupholder on this thread and, notoriously, the ever-morphing often-obvious P*ltdown Man) that PZ has requested we not engage with, and killfile makes it easier to avoid the temptation.

  231. 231
    anbheal

    Hey, cool NOVA on right now, PBS in the last remaining days of EDT. Science geeks, time to sign off. Sorry PZ.

  232. 232
    Weed(less) Monkey

    Cupholder, go fuck yourself somewhere else. And take that cup and two girls with you.

  233. 233
    Inaji

    anbheal:

    Thanks for the killfile advice. But I find the idiots entertaining. In the way your tongue will repeatedly and against all of your free will be entertained by a regular return to probing a canker sore.

    And besides, how could I appreciate Caine and Sally and some of the better regulars if I suppressed all the shit they’re shitting on?

    No problem. However, there are certain trolls we have been asked to ignore (see the link in #226), so a killfile is handy.

  234. 234
    The Ys

    I wonder if Killswitch Engage would consider changing their name to Killfile Engage?

    /irrelevant thought

    I see the trolls are out in full force. Thanks to them for so clearly delineating the true scope of the problem.

    BattleAubergine, you rock. Take care of yourself and do what you need to do to feel safe.

  235. 235
    Ing

    @Ys

    You can thank a certain blog for becoming apparently the Legion of Doom meeting hall for these anuses. Because that’s the way to preserve a legacy in ‘the movement’…or well basic humanity.

  236. 236
    Ing

    @Cupholder

    I hope you’re hit by a car.

    There, nothing sexual. Get fendered.

  237. 237
    cicely

    The drunk driving analogy interests me; if you’re too impaired to drive, would that be a reasonable definition of when you’re too impaired to consent to (or initiate) sex?
    -
    I’ll just have to catch up on this thread tomorrow; it waxeth late. ‘Night, all.
    -

  238. 238
    Weed(less) Monkey

    Oh the willful ignorance is strong in this one. Killswitch Engage (Thanks, The Ys!)

  239. 239
    Inaji

    Ing, please stop giving it attention. It (and all the posts) will be gone when PZ notices.

  240. 240
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Disclosure #1:

    Haven’t read any of the comments in the thread. But given there are (now) 236, I know there are some douchenozzles up in here whining.

    Disclosure #2:

    I’m going back to read the thread. And working on my fourth glass of wine, I’ll not be kind to anyone who says—

    a. “But it’s not all menz!!!!”

    b. “Just cuz she’s drunk doesn’t mean she has no personal responsibility!!!!”

    c. “Whai are you ashamed ov ur penizz PZZ???”

    It’ll be shocking if I’m wrong about this.

  241. 241
    The Ys

    @ Ing:

    You can thank a certain blog for becoming apparently the Legion of Doom meeting hall for these anuses.

    Glad I don’t have to take minutes for their meetings. I can’t think of a bigger waste of bandwidth outside of the WBC’s website.

    Because that’s the way to preserve a legacy in ‘the movement’…or well basic humanity.

    I’m pretty sure basic humanity is beyond most of them…which is highly unfortunate for the women in their lives. :/

  242. 242
    Inaji

    The Ys:

    I’m pretty sure basic humanity is beyond most of them…which is highly unfortunate for the women in their lives.

    I’d say it’s highly unfortunate for anyone in their lives. Think of them around (or raising) boys and young men.

  243. 243
    SallyStrange

    wanna explain “sabotage PET”?? What are you talking about there?

    Care to explain your rape apologia, you loathsome turd?

    I like how the sensitivity of survivors is being used as a bludgeon to attack people who object to rape culture. Now that’s irony.

  244. 244
    Inaji

    wanna explain “sabotage PET”?? What are you talking about there?

    I don’t need to explain it, you shit. Bring it up to Mattir, if you’re feeling especially idiotic.

  245. 245
    The Ys

    Caine:

    I’d say it’s highly unfortunate for anyone in their lives. Think of them around (or raising) boys and young men.

    That’s an excellent if highly depressing point. I wasn’t thinking it through.

    :/

  246. 246
    mouthyb

    I’d like to add a number #7 (I think, after everyone else’s suggestions) to the list:

    If someone is screaming/crying/etc near you, call the police. Be aware that rapists have zero problem assaulting people in public or semi-public spaces.

    I was coming home from class last year and cut through a parking lot just in time to hear a woman start crying, “why did you hit me in the face, baby?” I stopped, looked, and he was busy trying to get her to stop talking by trying to convince her that she deserved it.

    It was fucking four in the afternoon. And yes, I called the police.

  247. 247
    mouthyb

    Also, as people have said, one of the predictors for someone being a rapist is strict gender roles, anger at women and the belief that it is necessary to ‘enforce’ those roles in any way possible.

  248. 248
    Inaji

    mouthyb:

    Also, as people have said, one of the predictors for someone being a rapist is strict gender roles, anger at women and the belief that it is necessary to ‘enforce’ those roles in any way possible.

    Yes. Unfortunately, that does not even begin to cover who will rape and who won’t. There’s a wealth of men out there who simply feel entitled.

  249. 249
    mouthyb

    Caine: I won’t disagree. The guys studied were the ones who ended up in jail, or the ones who were able to be caught (probably those who are not as economically privileged, racially privileged or otherwise better able to get the benefit of the doubt out of law enforcement.)

    Which is, itself, frightening.

    The study I’m referencing: http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/predator-redux/

  250. 250
    magistramarla

    Back in the ’70s, we used to see drunk girls being targeted at college parties. My boyfriend (later husband) and I, who were never heavy drinkers, used to intervene and help the drunk girls back to their dorm rooms.
    We women and the concerned men who love us need to look out for each other.

  251. 251
    JediBear

    #174: Caine:

    “Everywhere” must be a place I’m not.

    I can only speak to my own personal experience, which I know is atypical in some ways.

    I don’t have a job. I don’t drink or party. I don’t have a lot of friends. I’m depressed and withdrawn.

    I’m not good with people. I tend to keep them at arm’s length. Or further. And it’s entirely possible therefore that some of this shit could go down right under my nose without me noticing it.

    It’s entirely possible it’s more obvious to other people, but I literally don’t see it. Not because I don’t want to but either because I’m too incompetent to notice it going down or because it doesn’t happen near me.

    Either scenario makes sense. Might be a little of both. Take your pick.

    I said would-be ally because I am *trying* to be an ally. I’m reading. I’m learning. I’m speaking out where I see opportunities. And I know I’m not perfect, but at least give me credit for trying, and at least consider that the challenge I mentioned — seeing through the blinders imposed by privilege and social isolation — might actually be a real one.

    There *isn’t* a red pill, is my point.

  252. 252
    crowepps

    The drunk driving analogy interests me; if you’re too impaired to drive, would that be a reasonable definition of when you’re too impaired to consent to (or initiate) sex?

    A person can be too impaired to drive on remarkably little alcohol. For a 120 pound woman it’s three beers.

    http://dui.drivinglaws.org/drink-table.php

  253. 253
    Tex

    So wow there’s already a lot of comments on this… and this is probably going to get lost in them or have already been brought up (yes I didnt read through all 260-something comments before typing)but I have a couple things to say, some of it may sound like rape apologizing or whatnot but believe me that is not the case:

    one this can happen as women trying to rape men, happened to a friend of mine who happens to be gay, a girl who had been showing interest in him while he was still int he closet through a party that he got pressured to go to, then she tried to get him drunk and then tried to kind of force herself on him (I say kinda because she wasnt hitting him or otherwise hurting him, but was definitely being forceful) The kicker is a couple guys walked in in this, saw what was going on then walked away. Eventually he managed to get away from her without having to resort to any kind of force and went to sleep i his truck.

    Second not all claims of rape/harassment are factual (I say this knowing that this is only true in the vast minority of situations but worth noting it does happen) Another friend of mine nearly got arrested for sexually assaulting a girl at a party he didnt attend and the only reason he didnt end up getting arrested was because her friend came forward to the police at about the same time they were sending out officers to pick him up.

    Another thing I found interesting is that in Colorado (and other states Im sure) if a person is drunk they are considered to be unable to give consent to have sex which makes it rape. But you wolnt see that brought against a sober woman who has sex with a drunk man.

    Again not trying to make excuses for anyone, but I feel that there are lots of areas of rape that are not discussed much less addressed, and while these situations may not happen often I feel like we should at least be able to talk about them openly.

  254. 254
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Oh dear. ‘Ultrafems’? You may as well have simply worn a large sign saying ‘male supremacist on patrol’ about your neck. At least it is marginally more ortiginal that ‘feminazi’, I’ll give you that.

    You know, it HAS been a while since the regulars all reconfigured themselves and flew through the air in a burst of glowing lines to combine into a 200 ft feminist robot with a glowing sword and rocket launcher hands…

  255. 255
    Cipher

    Tex, the only thing that’s in any way worthwhile to note about your comment is that you think it’s somehow daring to talk about this shit when in fact every single thread about rape some asshole comes in here to ask us WHAT ABOUT THE POOR FUCKING MENZ?! Look, you dumbass, we are all well aware that men can be raped, and that false accusations happen with any kind of crime, and we are all even more well aware that some asshole always feels the need to tell us these things because FUCKING OFFENDED PRIVILEGE.

  256. 256
    Ze Madmax

    Tex @ #258

    A lot of these points have actually been addressed in this thread (yay for reading!). Furthermore, the suggestions presented here aim at eliminating the societal structures that allow rape and rape apologies to happen. By attacking these structures, issues such as the ones you bring up are also being addressed.

    As a side note: Anecdotes are not data. False accusations of rape are no more common than false accusations of any other crime, and unlike other criminal acts, victims of rape are often second-guessed and blamed for their plight. These two facts severely weaken any serious attempt to present false rape accusations as a significant issue.

  257. 257
    Cipher

    P.S. My inarticulate snarling above is not intended to shut down actual discussion of male rape, but unfortunately the asshole I’m responding to felt the need to include the OMG FALSE RAPE and OMG TABOO canards into his post. So well-meaning posters who would like to talk about male rape, please feel free to do so, but please do so without resorting standard rape apologia in your posts.

  258. 258
    Kseniya

    You know, it HAS been a while since the regulars all reconfigured themselves and flew through the air in a burst of glowing lines to combine into a 200 ft feminist robot with a glowing sword and rocket launcher hands…

    QFT!

  259. 259
    SallyStrange

    some of it may sound like rape apologizing

    If you suspect this might be the case, then stop. Think. Edit. Re-edit. Think some more. Consider not saying anything at all. Then delete everything you wrote and rewrite it completely so that it no longer even vaguely appears to have any relationship to rape apologism.

    Because if it sounds like it, it bloody well is it. That’s how language fucking works. You don’t get to control how we read your words by preemptively proclaiming “this isn’t rape apologism” and then spewing a bunch of rape apologism all over.

  260. 260
    Inaji

    Classical Cipher:

    Tex, the only thing that’s in any way worthwhile to note about your comment is that you think it’s somehow daring to talk about this shit when in fact every single thread about rape some asshole comes in here to ask us WHAT ABOUT THE POOR FUCKING MENZ?! Look, you dumbass, we are all well aware that men can be raped, and that false accusations happen with any kind of crime, and we are all even more well aware that some asshole always feels the need to tell us these things because FUCKING OFFENDED PRIVILEGE.

    Quoting, not only for truth, but because CC said everything I would have said.

    I am seriously sick of people like this who *always* say they haven’t bothered to read the comments. Here’s a thought, Tex – if you can’t be bothered to read, keep your hands off the keyboard.

  261. 261
    A. R

    Tex: Please do not attempt to use the existence of male rape (a very real phenomenon, and not just in prisons, I read I study on the topic last year that was quite interesting) to nullify the concerns of those who want to eliminate rape culture completely. By dong this, you use the same argument that some male supremacists use when attempting to dismiss issues of gender by noting that males are victims of gender roles too (also true, PHMT, but to a much lesser extent than females). I do not appreciate those arguments, and I assume that many others here feel the same way.

  262. 262
    Fear Uncertainty Doubt

    I think that men taking advantage of women in compromised states is something that the human race will never be rid of. This in no way diminishes the harm or is an apology for this kind of predatory behavior, but I do think that believing you can “stamp out” this is no different than any other attempt to 100% civilize people.

    I am not in a blame the victim camp at all, but I think it’s an unfortunate paradox that, although date rape is not the victim’s fault, it unfortunately really is the victim’s responsibility to protect herself. This isn’t a moral or ethical thing, I’m not saying that men shouldn’t have to control themselves, but let’s be realistic about human nature and admit that men *don’t* control themselves often enough that women really should be prepared for that possibility. We should strive to educate men, to help prevent a culture that tolerates date rape, to isolate predators. But a tricky thing about implementing policies to change behavior is that the actors adjust to the new environment.

    What I mean is that you have guys who are predators because that’s their instinct, and guys who are predators because they are immersed in it culturally. Over time, you can shift the culture so the second group of guys never gets that way, that they conform to a non-predator culture. I believe that this is actually happening. But I also think awareness and making violence more public is increasing faster than the culture is shifting, so it seems at times to be getting worse. We’re much less racist as a society than 60 years ago, but racism is considered a pathogen now, whereas it was socially acceptable then, so we have a heightened sensitivity to it.

    Back to the instinct predators. Given a culture around them that is increasingly intolerant of date rape, do they just give up and go home? Hardly! They will just find new ways to hide, to get around whatever rules society uses. In the end, sex is a private matter and so the predators among us will always be able to exploit that. It will always be a difficult thing to adjudicate the truth of what might look at face value to be nothing more than a drunken tryst.

    This is an ugly aspect of life and I hate to say it but as long as women are going to be drunk around men, there will be men looking to exploit them. If you can’t accept that reality, you’ll always be behind the curve.

    I think we need to parallel our efforts to educate men with education for women. First thing being, getting drunk around men puts you at a level of risk higher than being sober, and being around drunk men puts you at a higher risk than not. Rage at the injustice of it, you will not change that at all. There was a concerted public campaign for people to have designated drivers, someone sober to be in control of a vehicle. It’s socially OK to say, “give me your keys, you’re not driving home”. Should we not teach women to have a designated chaperone? It sounds archaic, but the fact is if we educated women to accept a trusted friend’s authority to say, “you’re not leaving with that guy”, how much date rape could we prevent—date rape that would not be prevented any other way?

    I applaud the efforts to change men’s behavior, I really do. And if this is read as an attempt to give men any excuse for inexcusable behavior, then you’ve read it wrong. But I believe it naive to think that we can make a world in which a woman can get drunk and go home with a guy she just met with no risk to her at all. There is no “safe” when it comes to getting drunk in a co-ed environment, or even just being in a drunken co-ed environment. There are relative degrees of safety, we can say that this situation is safer than that, but we should categorize the whole class of co-ed drunkeness as unsafe to begin with, and cannot be made “safe” no matter what you do. If you aren’t comfortable with that, then don’t get drunk and don’t be around drunk people.

  263. 263
    SallyStrange

    And if this is read as an attempt to give men any excuse for inexcusable behavior, then you’ve read it wrong.

    If you have to type such disclaimers, it’s too late. You have already done what you’re trying to escape responsibility for doing.

  264. 264
    Kseniya

    (Note to the visiting Trawl: Sorry, but “Ultrafems” sounds like something I might find at my local pharmacy. Yawn.)

    I graduated from high school waaay back in the first half of the George W. Bush era. Over the past couple of years, I’ve gotten back in touch with several of my girlfriends from home, and only recently have I learned of the rape and assault experiences that some of them endured as teens.

    One that I did know about when it happened was an utterly reprehensible drug-assisted date-rape that was perpetrated against my best friend when she was all of 15. She was immensely popular and received a lot of support, but despite ostensibly “ok” outward appearances, she went into an emotional downward spiral that involved heavy alcohol abuse, deteriorating relationships with family, teachers, and friends, and some horrific nights of drunkenness and alcohol poisoning that landed her in the hospital on more than one occasion. Factor in an accompanying eating disorder, and it was truly terrifying. It was like watching a slow-motion suicide attempt. I’m glad to be able to say that she’s much, much better now, even accounting for her tendency to fall for guys who aren’t necessarily very good for her.

    In some respects, that’s the happy story. Sadly, until recently, the other victims chose to keep quiet about what happened, out of shame and fear. Two of them also went the self-medicating route. One is struggling to get sober, and now tells me that she wished she’d spoken up so that “things could have gone better” for her. :-( Another is also in recovery from alcohol abuse, is already married and divorced, and doesn’t seem to be able to get into healthy romantic relationships. FWIW. As others have stated, the after-effects of sexual assault can last for years and years.

    Some other stories were not of rape per se, but were clearly instances of what I’d call boundary violations. Anyway, the point I’m so clumsily trying to get to, is this: the number of guys named in these stories as perps, total, was two. Only two. Statistically meaningless sample size, yes, but anecdotal support of the repeat offender conclusion cited.

    Safety is important, but I add my voice to those who say that the REAL job here is to TEACH BOYS NOT TO BECOME RAPISTS.

    Crap… I’m falling asleep at the keyboard here. I hope the above is lucid. I’m too tired to edit. Night, all.

  265. 265
    Cipher

    Fear Uncertainty Doubt: A Summary

    This in no way diminishes the harm or is an apology for this kind of predatory behavior, but… I am not in a blame the victim camp at all, but… I’m not saying that men shouldn’t have to control themselves, but… I hate to say it but… It sounds archaic but… if this is read as an attempt to give men any excuse for inexcusable behavior, then you’ve read it wrong. But…

  266. 266
    Kevin

    For all of those wondering about the so-called “gray area” between drunken hookups and date rape, allow me to relate the one anectdote from my own life (yes, actual events, not that ficticious tripe Sophia posted – which was a textbook depiction of rape, for the record) which leaves me utterly convinced that even mentioning this “but-both-parties-were-drunk gray area” bullshit is rape apologetics, pure and simple.

    I was a senior in college and, having broken up with a girlfriend 2 weeks earlier, wound up asking a long-time female friend of mine to my fraternity formal “just as friends”. We’d actually been friends for years and had never been romantically involved (but were definitely close and even flirtatious with one another from time to time). She happily accepted my invitation (not only was she a close friend of mine, but many of her girlfriends were attending as well so it had all the ingredients for a incredibly fun night out). The formal was an over-night/out-of-town affair, and she and I chose to split a room with my college roommate and his girlfriend, with a pre-determined sleeping arrangement of the girls sharing a bed and the guys sharing a bed.

    It was a fun night indeed… dinner, dancing, and drinking. Lots of drinking. Stumbling around and slurring heavily levels of drinking. Not surprisingly (in hindsight), somehow the mix of alcohol, fast-dancing, music, alcohol, and slow dancing had an effect that found me and my “just a friend” formal date wrapping up the formal by making out passionately on the dance floor for the last 3 songs of the night. And found the two of us groping each other and giggling like little kids all the way through the hallways as we ran (stumbled), not walked, back to our room. And found her pleading with my roommate’s friend to please take my roommate back out for a few more drinks so she and I could “have some time alone” (while I subtly accepted a condom from my roomate “just in case I needed it”). And then found the two of us alone in a bedroom, both drunk, loopy, giddy, horny, happy, you name it… and embracing, disrobing, falling on the bed, crawling under the covers, and getting lip-locked for a solid 20-minute makeout session with every bit of action, above the waist, you can imagine. “Enthusiastic consent” would’ve seemed a laughable understatement… And, in this context, with timing that felt right to me, I slid my hand below her waistline.

    Through my inebriation, and even through the haze of all the hormones flooding my body and pheremones flooding the air, I IMMEDIATELY AND UNEQUIVICABLY sensed her tense up and pull back slightly, and lightly but deliberately pull my hand to a stop with her own.

    There was no gray area. Not even close. I 100% knew that sex was not going to happen on this night. Period.

    I quickly pulled my hand back and asked if she was okay (I was mostly concerned that she’d been okay with what we’d been doing; that I hadn’t misread any earlier signs of her wanting to stop). She gave assurance that she’d been great with our fooling around thus far, but just didn’t want to go much further. Relieved, I suggested we take a breather, get some pajamas on, brush teeth, etc. After which, we wound up back in bed, kissing a bit more, and actually spending an hour or so just talking and laughing about those inane things that seem so damn funny to a couple of drunks. We even wound up sharing the bed that night (more due to my roommate-and-gfs enthusiasm for that arrangment than for any other reason) and ultimately drifted off to the blissful lands of Passoutia. We woke the next morning greeted by hangovers through the roof and countless friends congratulating us on being the life of the party (almost all assuming we’d either hooked up or passed out trying) .

    Anyway, no, this isn’t one of those, “and today we’ve been married for 10 years” stories. The spark of romance from that night was not to be rekindleld, and truth-be-told, our overtures (which we did talk about, allowing me to gain her perspective on the story I just gave) wound up forming an awkwardness-inducing hurdle that kind of crimped our friendship from that day on. But that’s not the point of this. Scroll back for the sentence with words in all CAPS. “IMMEDIATELY AND UNEQUIVICABLY”. That night left me with a taste of a situation date-rapists must routinely encounter, and most importantly, with a unshakeable certainty of how utterly and completely NOT A FUCKING GRAY AREA that situation is.

    For those MRAs inclined to ponder “what if she hadn’t said ‘no’, and accused you of rape the next day”, let me say this: had no boundaries been hinted at, had “enthusiastic consent” carried us through third base and all the way to home plate, there wouldn’t have been any gray areas either. Had things played out that way, I’d have been at risk of my friend accusing me of rape in the same way I’d been at risk of her stabbing me in the throat with a steak knife during our formal dinner.

    There simply are no gray areas here unless you are a sick sociopathic date rapist predator (or apologist thereof) who’s trying to see gray where none fucking exists. That is my point.

  267. 267
    SallyStrange

    Somehow it never occurs to people that if men choose to pursue sex with inebriated women, they are asking for it… where “it” is being accused of rape, of course.

  268. 268
    KillMeNow

    Alcohol and stupidi Your only friends.

  269. 269
    Inaji

    F U D:

    Here’s a little hint: prefacing with things like “I am not in a blame the victim camp at all” is generally is followed by blaming the victim. If that is not what you mean to do, then don’t fucking do it.

    I do think that believing you can “stamp out” this is no different than any other attempt to 100% civilize people.

    Who, exactly, believes you can stamp out rape 100 percent? Provide quotes of those who have said this. To my knowledge, not only did no one say this, no one professed in such a belief. Drunk driving still happens, however, there is now not only a stigma attached, there are much better prosecution and conviction rates. There are assertive prevention actions in regard to drunk driving, taken by citizens and police. This did not take place until people actively and aggressively campaigned for a change in social attitude. Such changes can take place and are effective.

    The same thing can happen with rape and sexual assault. To a very small degree, change has already happened, in that more women are unafraid to speak out, to press charges and actively pursue conviction. Many police departments now take rape and assault much more seriously than before. There’s a long way to go yet, but not one damn thing will be achieved if people simply shut up and say “oh well, whatcha gonna do?”

    although date rape is not the victim’s fault, it unfortunately really is the victim’s responsibility to protect herself.

    Uh huh. This would be called blaming the victim, lackwit. Women already have to watch themselves and every single fucking thing they do every single fucking moment of their lives. Women already adjust their lives to protect themselves. Ever ask yourself just why the onus is always on the woman? Why it is, that no matter what a woman does, there’s a handy group of people ready to blame her for whatever she’s done or didn’t do?

    I’m not saying that men shouldn’t have to control themselves, but let’s be realistic about human nature and admit that men *don’t* control themselves often enough that women really should be prepared for that possibility.

    Yes, you are saying men shouldn’t really have to control themselves and using “human nature” to excuse bad behaviour. Do you really think women are unaware of possibilities, fuckwit? Do you think that perhaps sometimes, women would like to be able to go out and have fun while men managed to consider them as full human beings who deserve being treated as full human beings and not fucktoys for entitlement-minded asspimples?

    We should strive to educate men,

    Yep.

    to help prevent a culture that tolerates date rape, to isolate predators.

    We’re already in a culture that tolerates rape of all kinds. You’re a tad slow, when you’re busy with your rape apologia, aren’t you?

    But a tricky thing about implementing policies to change behavior is that the actors adjust to the new environment.

    Duh. It’s not tricky at all. It’s nothing new. The less tolerance there is, socially, the less you’ll see it. It isn’t as though children aren’t being raped right now, it isn’t as though spouses/partners aren’t being raped right now, it isn’t as though stranger rape isn’t happening right now, it isn’t as though rape via alcohol or drugs isn’t happening right now, and so on. Those things have been happening throughout the ages, you dull stump of a crayon. Don’t go excusing rapists and saying, well, it’s a problem, social change and awareness, it’s all tricky and stuff…. – social change and awareness is the answer.

    I believe that this is actually happening.

    You’d be wrong. It might be happening a bit, but nowhere in the magnitude which is needed.

    I hate to say it but as long as women are going to be drunk around men, there will be men looking to exploit them. If you can’t accept that reality, you’ll always be behind the curve.

    Yes, yes, of course, it’s all those stupid women, going and getting drunk. Those poor, poor menz, expected to view women as humans, not commodities, to think with their brains, oh, that’s so difficult, can’t ask them to do that, no! FFS, you can take your moronic rape apologia, along with a decaying porcupine and stuff it, Cupcake.

    Should we not teach women to have a designated chaperone? It sounds archaic, but the fact is if we educated women to accept a trusted friend’s authority to say, “you’re not leaving with that guy”, how much date rape could we prevent—date rape that would not be prevented any other way?

    So now we’re back to women as chattel, eh? We ditzy witzy silly wimmins, we need chaperones! Why didn’t you suggest chaperones for men, Cupcake?

    I applaud the efforts to change men’s behavior, I really do.

    No, you don’t. That’s more than obvious.

    And if this is read as an attempt to give men any excuse for inexcusable behavior, then you’ve read it wrong.

    No, Cupcake. What you’ve done is mistake your chauvinistic rape apologia for some sort of sense. It’s sense, alright, disgusting nonsense.

  270. 270
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Kevin:

    I’m glad things turned out well for you. I would like to note that there actually are people who have genuine, disability-related difficulties in interpreting body language and other social signals (pulling a hand away would probably come through clearly, though), and that this doesn’t necessarily make them horrible people. This doesn’t excuse boundary violations (let alone rape) but it does underscore the importance of clear and explicit communication – I think it’s problematic to suggest that “hesitancy” body language should be “enough communication for anyone,” as your post seems to, when it really costs nothing to state one’s wishes in words (and reinforces concepts of enthusiastic consent and appropriately taking charge of one’s decisions). It also underscores the fact that being neurotypical is privileged, much like being white, male, or middle class, and at the very least it would be worthwhile to try to be aware of this. (Frankly, neurotypical privilege is pretty jaw-dropping at times, and I’m disappointed it mostly isn’t on the radar yet.)

  271. 271
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    There’s a long way to go yet, but not one damn thing will be achieved if people simply shut up and say “oh well, whatcha gonna do?”

    But that’s the whole point, isn’t it FUD?

  272. 272
    Inaji

    Kevin, excellent post. Thanks.

  273. 273
    Cipher

    You know what else is never going to be safe, FUD? Dating. I know a lot of women who have been raped and abused by their boyfriends or husbands. Perhaps women should avoid dating too. After all, the onus is on us to protect ourselves, not on the men to avoid being violent misogynists.
    Or would that be unreasonable?

  274. 274
    Hurin

    And if this is read as an attempt to give men any excuse for inexcusable behavior, then you’ve read it wrong.

    I don’t want to sound like a racist but…

    I don’t want to sound like a sexist but…

    I don’t want to sound like a rape apologist but…

    Don’t take this the wrong way…

    CRINGE!!

    This all translates the same way to me:

    “I’m going to write something that will make me look like an asshole, but I don’t want to be treated like an asshole, so I’m going to disclaim your interpretation.

    In order for that to be effective you would need ownership or rights to my interpretations of your writing, and you don’t have any. So its probably better if you just say what you mean and stand by it.

    In the same vein, no one is going to care how many times you marched with the feminists, how many times you escorted women into the OBGYNs office, or how many black friends you have.

    Your words are your words, and people are justified in assuming that they represent your thoughts. If you don’t want to be responsible for the implications of your words, then don’t fucking write them to people.

  275. 275
    dawnbyrnes

    One in four women and one in six men will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Looking back at an incident which occurred a couple months ago, I was one of them if a guy keeping on groping me after I said ‘stop’ and ‘not now’ is such. (Being an Aspie, I have trouble reading body language, and he was complimenting me, something I rarely hear and which overwhelmed me at the time). I almost went out on a date with him until my aunt and an older female friend told me it wouldn’t be a good idea. Looking back, I shudder to think what might have happened. I declined the date, told him I wasn’t looking for a relationship at the moment, and when he tried to call me a few weeks later, hung up on him twice and told him that if he contacted me again, I’d go to the police and have him charged with sexual harassment. Thankfully, I’ve not heard from him since.

    …Yet beyond having developed a certain amount of nervousness around men from the Indian subcontinent and keeping a weather eye out for this guy (he knows part of my walking-into-town route), I think I’m okay. I was able to allow a friend to fondle my breasts because he felt ‘naughty’ and didn’t mind it about a week afterwards.

    Having done cultural studies and learned about critical thinking, rape culture is frighteningly pervasive. I hate having to look over my shoulder at men, stay indoors after dark, and being uncomfortable to walk home on my own if I see a guy coming up to me, especially in isolated places. It sucks and it isn’t fair.

    Sorry if it was TMI

  276. 276
    Inaji

    dawnbyrnes:

    Sorry if it was TMI

    It wasn’t and I’m glad you’re okay.

  277. 277
    Tethys

    There is no “safe” when it comes to getting drunk in a co-ed environment, or even just being in a drunken co-ed environment.

    What utter filthy victim-blaming nonsense!

    Drunkenness is not a valid excuse to abuse people you fuckwit.
    Nobody should expect to be abused if they drink alcohol in mixed company.

    Raping women is not an instinct, in exactly the same way that molesting altar-boys is not an instinct.
    Its criminal behavior, and I absolutely expect ALL men to not behave like abusive, predatory psychopaths.

  278. 278
    A. R

    avoid being violent misogynists

    Is it just me, or shouldn’t this be a prerequisite for being a civilized human being?

  279. 279
    SallyStrange

    Is it just me, or shouldn’t this be a prerequisite for being a civilized human being?

    Not if your civilization is a violently misogynist one. That’s what we’re trying to change.

  280. 280
    Kevin

    Hi Azykroth,

    I think it’s problematic to suggest that “hesitancy” body language should be “enough communication for anyone,” as your post seems to

    Okay, I see how some might read my point as “there is no gray area with respect to body language”, which is not where I was going. In fact, you’ll notice my point quite clearly wasn’t, “Gosh, Kevin can ready body language even when he’s drunk”:

    I was mostly concerned that … I hadn’t misread any earlier signs of her wanting to stop.”

    Also, my recap uses the wording “what if she hadn’t said ‘no’”, without reference to body language at all.

    Anyway, I’ll try to be more clear: there is no gray area inasmuch as, once the “no” signal has been sent and received, either things stop (white area), or you are a rapist (black area). Basically, my experience gave me first-hand insight that, e.g. “I was so drunk”; “She dressed like a slut”; “She came on to ME”; “Her mouth said no but her body said yes”; etc., ad nauseum (literally), absolutely do NOT make gray areas.

    An aside, yes, I acknowledge that people with certain disabilities may need a different set of rules to play by, not just in sexual relationships but in virtually all facets of life, but my point wasn’t about them; and honestly, continuing to bring that up comes across as concern-trolling.

  281. 281
    Cipher

    I hate having to look over my shoulder at men, stay indoors after dark, and being uncomfortable to walk home on my own if I see a guy coming up to me, especially in isolated places. It sucks and it isn’t fair.

    This. It is extremely stressful to live in a rape culture, even for those of us who aren’t survivors, even for those who aren’t aware of the prevalence of rape. We are given restrictions about what we can wear, where we can walk, whom we can visit, what we must carry, how we can look and speak. We are given curfews and told we need chaperones, told not to go anywhere alone. And all of these rules are enforced with the threat of rape. The sad part is that the rules can’t protect us, and when they fail to, we’re blamed. Even sadder is that some of us are blamed before it even happens, before we can even try to follow the rules, because of who we are: race, class, disability.

    For those who have additional social impairments (hello there fellow Spectrum person) rape culture can be downright unbearable. Because things like our creep radar are often off, and often we can’t tell if people are being dishonest, and going around in groups can be harder for us.

    Sorry if it was TMI

    Nope, don’t worry about it! Especially in a thread like this one, personal experiences are often welcome.

  282. 282
    dawnbyrnes

    @Caine

    Thanks! I come from a background of emotional and physical abuse that continued until just over a year ago, so when combined with my autism makes me a bit unsure what is defined as abuse and what isn’t.

    (Though my aunt tells me it was harassment, not assault – though she still thinks it’s awful).

    *shuts up now*

  283. 283
    mikee

    I just want to say thanks to all of those on here who have been willing to discuss their own rapes & assaults. Someone said that rape changes your forever – in your cases, your strength surviving and you willingness to talk about it will hopefully educate others – maybe even eventually some empathy will engage in some of the MRA’s.
    About 15 years ago I was physically assaulted by a drunk guy much bigger than me who took me by the throat. I still recall that with great anger and fear. This was nothing compared to what you underwent and I just cannot understand how the apologists cannot see this. Can they not imagine what it would be like to be physically compelled to endure what should be the most intimate of connections. I hope one day stories like yours finally sink in, and hope for their sake the story does not come from their sister, girlfriend or mother.

    To those that feel compelled to bring up male rape – I can’t give you much credence unless you have been a victim yourself. In most case you are just using an annoying “what if” approach to divert the conversation. Maybe trying reading and listening for once. Yes male rape does happen but if the culture around “female rape” is corrected then in the process that around all rapes will sort itself out.

    Again, to those victims of rape and assault, you have my greatest respect and best wishes that life gets or is much better for you now.

  284. 284
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Harassment is verbal. If he touched you, it’s assault (actually, if he threatened or tried to touch you, I believe it’s assault; touching you is probably battery, but that depends a bit on jurisdiction.)

  285. 285
    dawnbyrnes

    @Azkyroth

    It’s complicated by the fact that I was ‘yeah, I don’t mind’ but told him to stop a few times because we were in a public carpark. I’m just glad he’s gone now.

    @Cipher

    Hey fellow Spectrum person!

  286. 286
    Inaji

    Kevin:

    but my point wasn’t about them; and honestly, continuing to bring that up comes across as concern-trolling.

    No, that is not what Azkyroth was doing. They made a valid point, and it does no harm to recognize neurotypical privilege. I have it myself, and those who are not NTs have gracefully educated me on how life is for someone non-neurotypical.

  287. 287
    Kevin

    An aside, yes, I acknowledge that people with certain disabilities may need a different set of rules to play by, not just in sexual relationships but in virtually all facets of life, but my point wasn’t about them; and honestly, continuing to bring that up comes across as concern-trolling

    Please note, this is directed toward those who argue that I should not come down so hard on rapists because, after all, some date-rapists may be disabled and incapable of picking up on subtle social cues. THAT is what I’m calling out as concern trolling. I am NOT in any way downplaying or dismissing the seriousness of date-rapists taking particular advantage of people with the extra challenges overcoming social disabilities, spectrum disorders, and the like.

    Sorry, it’s 2 a.m, I fear I’m inching closer to incoherence with each post, but wanted to at least clear that up before turning in.

  288. 288
    Inaji

    Dawn:

    I come from a background of emotional and physical abuse that continued until just over a year ago, so when combined with my autism makes me a bit unsure what is defined as abuse and what isn’t.

    I come from a background of abuse myself, it’s tough. Come on over to TET, if you like, it’s our lounge, where we talk about anything we like.

  289. 289
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    …but I didn’t say that…

    [Pattern-recognition kicks in]

    … :/

  290. 290
    idonotknow

    After reading the original post I was a bit depressed about how inadequate the 4 recommendations seemed.

    Approx 300 replies later, I’m quite depressed by how pathetic and small-minded the apologists are. But at least I have a greater appreciation for how essential the 4 recommendations are. Incremental change due to the actions of individuals is better than no change at all.

  291. 291
    Cipher

    …but I didn’t say that…

    For what it’s worth, I think I get where you’re coming from, Azkyroth. It would be good for all of us, especially non-NT folk of various varieties, if explicit verbal communication were encouraged. As you already know but I’ll say anyway, there are gendered pressures making that more difficult (women pressured never to say no, never to be assertive or explicit), and some of them are straightforwardly rape culture related (if I say no when I’m feeling uncomfortable, will he just do it anyway?). But we should work toward it anyway.

  292. 292
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    BattleAubergine
    I’m very sorry for what happened to you. If it is any help, I thin you’Re incredibly strong for coming forth, reporting him and talking about him.

    honeymaid88
    We just had this discussion on TET, and I’ll basically repeat what I said there:
    Being sensible isn’t victim-blaming. Since we live in rape-culture, we have to take care of ourselves (and change fucking rape culture). If one of our friends end up as an assault victim, it doesn’t help her that she’s blameless.

    ara

    I’ve seen this come down either way… two drunk people hook up, wish they hadn’t and move on with their lives… or… two drunk people hook up, she wakes up the next morning knowing she didn’t have the ability to consent and goes to the police. In this case, did a rape take place?

    Do you acquit a drunk-driver for manslaughter because they were too drunk? Or do you say that this adds to their blame?
    BTW, if weR’e talking about penetrative sex, it’s very, very hard (no pun intended) to have and keep an erection if you’re really drunk.
    In any case: Just be aware before and make the decision in advance. People who think that drunk driving is a bad thing plan ahead and either don’t get drunk or don’t drive. Why shouldthat be different with sex?

    drunk sex
    I think there’s a dig difference here between hook-ups and relationship sex and the communication involved.
    In a relationship, where you know and trust each other, you can communicate and plan ahead. If you planned your evening to start with a bottle of wine and end with a bottle of lube, and throughtout the whole time both have maintained that stance, you can be pretty sure that the enthusiastic consent in the end really is not alcohol-induced only.
    If you just met that person that very evening, probably while you were already a bit intoxicated, you have no way to know that.

    Sophia
    So, yeah, in the very unlikely event of this happening the exact way you describe it, with him being too drunk to do anything against it but still able to penetrate her, yep, rape.
    No enthusiastic consent on his side.
    But in every step, rape culture would have worked to her advantage. Because we all know that men are always flattered if women want to fuck them. And that souting “stop” while being half undressed would have been his eternal disgrace.
    BUt why am I getting a strong feeling of gaslighting here?

    Kevin
    Thank you for your story

  293. 293
    Cameron

    @82,90,92

    I don’t disagree with anything PZ said but I just wanted to add a comment about something (which Caine will surely rip in to me for), but…

    @A.R. – Why did you apologise to Caine when she unfairly and rudely insulted you for no reason? When I read your comment directed to aMRA about Caine blocking aMRA’s comments, I was glad someone readily mentioned what Killfile was so I didn’t have to Google it. It seemed your reply was a useful for reply in the scenario that aMRA was also unsure what Killfile was or other readers, like myself.

    So why did Caine rip in to you?
    “Fuck off, you idiot and don’t speak for me. I killfiled Hyperon and who I do or don’t killfile and who I do or don’t respond to is none of your business.”

    @Caine,
    You mentioned you Killfiled Hyperon previously yet are annoyed someone pointed out to aMRA you killfiled him as well? Your argument that “who I do or don’t respond to is none of your business”, what does that matter? If it was obvious enough for A.R. to point out aMRA had been killfile’d, obviously it wasn’t a private matter and was public knowledge. If you wanted aMRA to keep spouting crap thinking you were listening, obviously he would get tired pretty quickly and if he didn’t, he probably didn’t care you weren’t listening in the first place.

    Even if you ignore my arguments, who gives a shit? What does it matter that you’ve been “outed” as killfiling someone? Grow up. I never understand why you so readily jump on people and insult them with poor arguments. That’s now how you should treat a Christian or other religious person when arguing with them or people on this forum, though if it was directed at Hyperon or similar, it could be exused. Try to be civil.

    A.R. was doing people like me and perhaps aMRA a favour by explaining what Killfile was and perhaps it was also a little insult for aMRA being told that he is being ignored because of his ignorant comments.

    Even if A.R. did something wrong, he/she doesn’t deserve the reply you gave them. Sure, if A.R. had been spouting crap like aMRA or Hyperon I wouldn’t careless but A.R. seems like a decent person who supports PZ’s views.

  294. 294
    Kevin

    …but I didn’t say that…

    Azykroth,

    I’ve read back through our exchanges, and in my defensiveness over my own post, I think I went a bit on the offense. Basically, my intended point was that when a person communicates “stop”, and that communication is received and understood, the recipient can either stop, or rape (no gray area there). I believe you understood my point as, when a person communicates “stop” in some way, the recipient can either stop, or rape (which would imply that somebody incapable of understanding, for instance, subtle body language is “evil”). I wasn’t as clear in my point as I could’ve been, so I take the blame for having written it in a way that you could thus interpret it. I agree that if my original point had been what you understood it to be, it would’ve left the impression that “inability to understand all social cues” is, even for a non-NT individual, evil and/or inexcusable. Given that my writing gave you that impression, I don’t think it was fair of me to write off your reply as concern-trolling, so much as legitimate airing of grievences over what you saw as NT-privilege. Apologies for that.

    Worse, when I thought you were concern-trolling, I mistook your point as a flavor of “blame the victim for not communicating more clearly, because the attacker might be Non-NT”. Rereading, I no longer think that’s where you were coming from, and I apologize for making the implication.

    I definitely do think that clear communication is essential in all of these situations, and acknowledge that in many cases, body language may not be enough. In the case of my experience above, both myself and my friend knew each other quite well enough to know that “her taking off her shirt and pulling me on top of her” was definitely a communication of enthusiastic consent (and I did much to communicate the same to her), and a “stopping my hand and pulling it away” was UTTERLY clear communciation of “I don’t want you to do that [for some reason we should talk about]“. Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but my overarching point wasn’t about clarity of communcation per se, it was about responding appropriately once that communication was received.

    For the record, if I were in an intimate situation with somebody who I had reason to suspect might be non-NT and may NOT know a way (or be able) to communicate the difference between enthusiatic consent vs. reluctance, it would be absolutely beholden on me to communicate extensively in advance of the situation, stop-and-ask repeatedly, and always with the benefit of doubt going towards “I don’t want to do that”/ “stop” (at least early on in the relationship)

    Okay, hopefully that hasn’t dug me any deeper into any trenches here, and we can let bygones be bygones. Have a nice day!

  295. 295
    pelamun

    Cameron,

    too much meta can derail a thread. As far as I can see, A.R. was offering explanations without anyone asking for it. If people are unsure about something, they can ask, and plenty of people will explain, or refer them to the appropriate resources (the blog standards and practices, for instance, or even the PharyngulaWiki).

    (A kill file is actually nothing exclusive to Pharyngula, it’s been around since the Usenet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killfile )

  296. 296
    jennygadget

    HotMess @139

    “If someone is choosing to drink and then chooses to drive, that is their fault. If someone chooses to drink and then has sex, they were raped because they can’t give consent. I wholeheartedly agree with the former, I have a hard time agreeing with the latter.”

    I have repeatedly heard rape-apologists describe men as being unable to control themselves, but – I must say – hearing them described as heavy machinery operated by someone else is a new one.

    This whole idea that one can discuss crimes that involve tools and possessions (drunk driving, burglary) and compare them logically to social interactions (abuse, torture, rape) just makes no sense to me. My body =/= property – it’s not like I can detach it from myself the way I can a wallet. Likewise, a fellow person – drunk or otherwise =/= a potentially deadly weapon under my control. We can certainly pose a greater danger to ourselves and each other when we are drunk, but there is nothing about rape via inability to give consent that maps in any logical way to driving while drunk.

    If one really needs analogies in order to try to work out the moralities and logistics of it all, one should stick to other kinds of social interactions where the law has reason to get involved.

    For example, while contracts signed while under the influence are not always invalid, they are considered to be invalid if the other party knew of the drunkeness and took advantage. Which is exactly the kind of scenario being described in the linked studies While this may be difficult to prove in court in specific cases, when it comes to public opinion and the expectations we have for what is considered acceptable behavior – clearly this is proof enough that the pervasive idea that it’s “ok to get a few drinks in her to loosen her up” needs to die in a fire.

    Which is all the original post was asking for in the first place.

    Sad that this is so controversial.

  297. 297
    fredbloggs

    This subject was always going to generate a lot more heat than light. Comment at your peril!

  298. 298
    Weed(less) Monkey

    This subject was always going to generate a lot more heat than light. Comment at your peril!

    No, not really. The subject of sexual freedom for both sexes is bound to draw in some filthy bullshit, though.

  299. 299
    Dr Marcus Hill Ph.D. (arguing from his own authority)

    Whilst we’re in the mood for anecdotes, here’s one of my own.

    A couple of decades ago when I was an undergrad, a friend of mine was going out with someone else in our social group. He was a bit of a narcissist, and never a particularly close friend of mine, but as much part of that circle as anyone else. Then my friend told a few of us that he’d been staying over the previous night and they’d had (consensual) sex before going to bed, but he’d been unable to sleep and woke her up by penetrating her. Naturally, she kicked him straight out. Luckily, she didn’t seem to be too deeply affected beyond realising the guy was a douchenozzle. Although some of us urged her to report him, in retrospect I suspect she was right not to – not that he didn’t deserve it, but given the circumstances there was precisely no chance of the case even getting to court, so the net effect would have been more stress for her. We didn’t start “considering the evidence” or trying to apply “critical thinking”, though. The next couple of times any of us saw the guy, we told him to fuck off, because we don’t put up with rapists. I haven’t seen or heard about him since, so I have no idea if he learned his lesson, but I’m happy to say that not one of my friends defended him for a second.

  300. 300
    Svlad Cjelli

    See, a list like this is very helpful. The voices in my head only suggest:
    1. Search.
    2. Isolate.
    3. Cripple.
    4. Kill.
    5. Eat.

  301. 301
    Weed(less) Monkey

    Svlad Cjelli, even if that was your idea of a joke you should seek help.

  302. 302
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    For all those who want to discuss “grey areas”:
    Why?
    I mean, honestly, compare the best case/worst case scenarios:

    Stay in the white:

    Best case: Sex with people who really want to have that sex (which is usually the best sex around), never need to wonder afterwards.
    Worst case: You miss out on some sex you could have had

    Paddle in the greys:
    Best case: Some drunk sex
    Worst case: You rape somebody.

    If you think that’s a risk worth running then there’s something seriously wrong with you

  303. 303
    laurentweppe

    Caine: I won’t disagree. The guys studied were the ones who ended up in jail, or the ones who were able to be caught (probably those who are not as economically privileged, racially privileged or otherwise better able to get the benefit of the doubt out of law enforcement.)

    I remember some old statistics from France (here) showing that nearly 60% of condemned rapists were either doctors, teachers, CEOs/chiefs of staff, lawyers, cops or army officers: that is, middle to upper-class people in positions of institutional authority: while part of it comes from the fact that french courts and police have drastically improved during the last century or so (from “virtually impossible to sentence a rapist” to giving at least a fighting chance to the victims when they call the cops early), if a majority of people caught and sentenced for rape are people with institutional authorities despite the fact that law enforcement will tend to be softer toward them, one has to wonder about the prevalence of rapists among the ruling class of “civilized” western countries.

  304. 304
    Ace of Sevens

    Trying to get clarification doesn’t necessarily mean looking for a gray area where people can commit borderline rapes and not feel bad about it. Enthusiastic consent certainly does happen with drunk people. Are we talking about drunk people in general, or just people who aren’t enthusiastically consenting?

    For a real life example, I have an ex-girlfriend who basically never wanted to have sex when sober, due to trauma from a rape that occurred when she was 13. She knew I wasn’t comfortable with this and would sometimes get drunk and lecture me at great length about being inebriated didn’t change her essential nature, so she could still consent to sex. (And she was super drunk. She often wouldn’t remember doing this the next day.) IIRC, we eventually got together when she consented to sex in theory, then got drunk. Sometimes, she’d ask me to buy her alcohol so she could get drunk enough for sex. I think I successfully talked her into doing it sober once and that was because she was trying to prove to me she could and was generally less enthusiastic than normal. It didn’t last long, because she started doing coke and I drew the line (and I was already annoyed about how she was drunk all the time), but we still spend a lot of time together and she tells friends she’s trying to set me up how great because she can trust me not to take advantage of her. She still occasionally gets really drunk and begs for sex, which I turn down, then can’t remember it the next morning. I’ve told her if she keeps doing that, I might eventually say yes.

    It strikes me that by a really strict interpretation of the idea that drunk people can’t consent, I raped her a dozen or so times over the three months we dated. Is there anyone who would actually argue this?

  305. 305
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    danielrudolph
    How about reading the thread, seeing that I adressed that point already and then come back?
    But another thing:
    Have you ever tried to get her help?
    I mean, a woman who was so traumatized that she couldn’t fuck when sober and evetually switched to harder drugs to cope…

  306. 306
    spamamander, internet amphibian

    A very small, positive, “Look At My Kid” post that seemed relevant to the discussion:

    A couple of days ago my son, who is 12 and the youngest of my three demonspa- erm, children, was with me in the car after I had picked him up from cross-country practice. Out of the blue a bit he told me that he got really upset with the way the other kids at school talked, particularly the boys, using “gay” and “retard” as insults. He was at a loss to understand how being “gay” was a negative thing at all. Then he said a lot of them like to say they “raped” something, particularly in the context of gaming- and asked what rape was, realizing it was something really bad and it raised his hackles it was being used that way, but not sure of the details. Wow. I didn’t realize I’d left such a huge gap. So the quick explanation- making someone have sex without their consent- and a bit of background about how it affected women in their daily lives and why I had driven to Seattle to participate in the Slutwalk.

    Now he’s doubly determined not to let kids talk like that around him. There’s hope for our sons- and by extension our daughters as well.

  307. 307
    Gregory Greenwood

    Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM @ 281;

    It is extremely stressful to live in a rape culture, even for those of us who aren’t survivors, even for those who aren’t aware of the prevalence of rape. We are given restrictions about what we can wear, where we can walk, whom we can visit, what we must carry, how we can look and speak. We are given curfews and told we need chaperones, told not to go anywhere alone. And all of these rules are enforced with the threat of rape. The sad part is that the rules can’t protect us, and when they fail to, we’re blamed. Even sadder is that some of us are blamed before it even happens, before we can even try to follow the rules, because of who we are: race, class, disability.

    You’re right on the money here. I think that this is one of the most toxic elements of rape culture – all the multitudes of rules that women are supposed to follow are allegedly there to protect them, but in truth they are actually there to act as a series of social tripwires, since if it is possible to claim that a woman in a given situation didn’t follow any one of a thousand at times self-contradictory rules then we inevitably hear the old cannard (as spewed onto the thread @ 262 by Fear Uncertainty Doubt) that she consciously placed herself in a position where she was in danger of being raped; that she ‘asked for it’.

    It’s an unwritten charter for rape apologists, and doubly offensive when paired with the almost universally associated idea (also wheeled out by Fear Uncertainty Doubt) that preventing rape is entirely the burden of women, and that men have no obligation to exercise self-control at all. It is particularly ironic when male supremacist complain about the supposed misandry of feminists, when a core plank of their position is that men are such base animals that they cannot be expected to behave like sentient, ethical actors around women. I think that such a dismissal of the male capacity for self control is what is truly misandrist, not the concept of rape culture.

    As for social rules surounding sex, frankly there is only one rule that matters, and everyone should follow it. If there is any possibility of a lack of informed, free and enthusiastic consent then you stop. The best part about this rule is its simplicity. There are no exceptions, and no grey areas. If in doubt, ask. If the person is too far gone to answer clearly and cogently, stop.

    This isn’t rocket science, yet the male supremacists ironically have such a low opinion of men that they apparently consider our entire gender incapable of following this simple rule.

  308. 308
    Anri

    Do you acquit a drunk-driver for manslaughter because they were too drunk?

    Rather more to the point, do you acquit a drunk-driver for manslaughter because the pedestrian they hit was drunk too?

  309. 309
    TehkiloGraeme

    Danielrudolph @304

    A friend would help her get help, particularly if her coping mechanisms are alcohol and cocaine. You don’t get to claim the high ground by saying she knew she had to get drunk to have sex.

  310. 310
    T.J. Brown

    I don’t often comment on these threads. I’m more of the silently reading and thinking my comments type person. But whenever a thread about rape creeps up, I’m doubly interested. I just wanted to say to BattleAubergine and anyone else who have shared their stories on here, that you’re not alone.

    I was raped as a child by my mother’s husband, my adoptive father. He abused me for years, as well as my sister. I’m not going to go into detail right now, but I will say that it took me a decade to come out about it.

    I say all of this to say that it’s incredibly helpful to talk about these experiences. To have people listen to my story validates me as a survivor. It also helps get perpetrators off the street.

    The asshole is now serving 10 more years in prison for sexual battery. A lot of women don’t want to go to the police because they think police either won’t believe them or won’t try to go after the rapist. Which is an understandable belief. But, successful prosecution does happen.

    I know this post didn’t have much of a point but I just wanted to put it out there.

  311. 311
    debaser71

    Hey dogmatists, apply your skepticism towards feminist theory.

  312. 312
    Ace of Sevens

    I did read the rest of the thread. I saw some people talking about enthusiastic consent, which can certainly happen when drunk, and other people arguing that talking about how drunk people do sometimes consent to sex amounts to rape apologetics.

    Yes, I did try to help. Her lack of commitment to improving was one of the main reasons we broke up. I withheld sex until she would do it sober, which led to our one sober fuck. I also staged an intervention for her coke use.

    I took her to AA, but she decide it was bullshit and I’m inclined to agree based on the one meeting I was in with her. It’s religious clap-trap, where they take credit if someone does stop drinking and if they don’t, they didn’t follow the program well enough. When she got involuntarily committed, I visited her every day. I encouraged not to lie to her shrink to get out faster while there. I was there for her when other guys got her drunk and took advantage of her.

    She’s mostly clean now, but still can’t be around alcohol without drinking all of it. She’s unemployable due to ME and crippling agoraphobia and I help her out with rides, paying for prescriptions and such. Speaking of which, her cat is diabetic and she needs help covering the initial medical bills this incurred for her. See here: http://maxthecrazycat.chipin.com/maxs-vet-bill

    I apologize for the spamming, but I can only cover so much of it. I’m not a stranger. I posted as Ace of Sevens at the old site.

  313. 313
    Louis

    Dear Holy Turds of the Invisible Pink Unicorn (May Her Hooves Never Be Shod) this thread (and sundry others) depresses the shit out of me. I’m lucky that’s all it does.

    I bothered to speak up on the Red Pill thread (and a couple of others) relatively recently because I am staggered by all the apologia for rape. How is this stuff even hard? I understand not knowing about rape culture/feminism etc when you haven’t been exposed. I was that guy. I knew fuck all, but when the arguments come in and the data is presented, it’s pretty damned easy.

    I’ve tried to avoid personal revelations/issues, but here’s two:

    1) Well over a decade ago a female work colleague and I went out for a drink (one of many times we’d done this). We had been (inappropriately?) flirting with each other for months and months and things took their natural course so back to my place we staggered. It was by far the closest, so it was more a matter of convenience than any intent. We were fooling around quite seriously on the sofa, I’ll spare you the details, and I got up to {ahem} get something from the bathroom. In the ~20 seconds it took me to do that she “changed her mind”. Now who knows if she “changed” her mind or it was already made up that she’d gone as far as she was willing to that night, I have no insight into her thoughts at that second, all I know was 20 or so seconds prior to that moment sex was most enthusiastically on the cards, and then it emphatically wasn’t. Oh I am sure we could have canoodled a bit more (great word) and she would have been “persuaded” or “given in” (eurgh) or perfectly happily changed her mind again…read it however you want, but that’s not what happened.

    She said “I’ve had a good night but I better get home now. You’re not going to get all weird on me are you?”. I was so stunned, so blown away by that comment that I actually made a joke out of it (crass I know). I’m not proud of that. Anyway, I said “Of course I’m not going to be weird about it, I’ll walk you to the train station”. And the night ended there. Happily there were subsequent nights and much fun and we are still friends, but I’ve never forgotten that “You’re not going to get all weird on me are you?” comment even though that night and many others ended perfectly happily.

    I’d thought about it on and off for years and never really put it into any context. Only after reading here and around has that comment become really clear. Obviously, and I knew this at the time, it was a “you’re not going to rape me are you?” question. At the time I thought rapists had a tattoo on their foreheads letting everyone know, after all it’s obvious that I’m not a rapist, ho ho ho, of course I can’t be…right? Crazy woman! And that’s where my thoughts ended. For years.

    But how does SHE know that? Ahhhh the second stage thought! A thought that, like I said, only occurred to me years later after much reading around. It really is that simple. It was so abundantly obvious to me that I’m not a rapist, could never be a rapist, that I couldn’t even begin to understand that anyone, especially not an intelligent woman like my colleague, couldn’t immediately grasp this. It wasn’t simply beyond argument, it was as stupid as someone claiming the earth was 6000 years old. And we know no one does that, right? Erm….right?

    2) I comment somewhere else, where is unimportant, but a few of you might know. Recently and unusually a strong thread of “Pharyngula is a shitty place” has emerged. Now, there are bits of that I agree with, Pharyngula is a difficult place to comment and discuss sometimes. Less so than some places, more so than others. And the place I refer to is hardly easy if you are at odds with the reality based community! I also think that some people have been poorly treated by the Pharyngulite horde, myself included, and PZ but, and this is a key but, so what?

    Really, so what?

    In all but one case, which I think was exceptionally bad, people have pretty much earned this and more. This is the internet. Over the top vitriol and hostility are hardly uncommon. People get called a donkey raping shit eater for preferring Windows to Mac. I’ve treated people poorly over the years so the butthurt is hardly my greatest concern. What’s concerning me is this: why is it this issue that has so energised my colleagues? Suddenly when it comes to feminism and not making rape apologia our tone is so vitally important? When did the idea that no one must be upset or challenged, and inviting interesting usage of decaying porcupines emerge?

    So yes, whilst I am “concerned” that some of the things done here are not done in my name and I don’t agree with them, I am VASTLY more concerned (note lack of comedy quotes) that otherwise normally rational, normally reasonable people suddenly want to focus on tone alone and avoid the genuine issues brought up by these discussions.

    I think it might say vastly more about the complainers than the things complained about. And I don’t like that.

    Louis

  314. 314
    Louis

    Crap….I realise I have badly phrased something.

    In my 313 at the end of Para 1 in part 2) I said:

    “I also think that some people have been poorly treated by the Pharyngulite horde, myself included, and PZ but, and this is a key but, so what? ”

    What I meant was not that *I* had been treated poorly, but that I (as part of the Horde) has treated others poorly. It was an admission of responsibility not persecution! (As if!)

    Fuck!

    Louis

  315. 315
    Ing

    Hey dogmatists, apply your skepticism towards feminist theory.

    …so you want us to rape people?

    —————————————————–

    META: I know we’re not supposed to address the Abbyites but I wanted to question this wisdom. Isn’t it given in to them, to just ignore them and have them auto-deleted? They’ve increased an active campaign of spam to such a level that it will turn the blog into what they whine about, a place where dissent is scrubbed.

    WTF is wrong with the Slimemistress anyway? I can’t understand why she would want to bath in the approval of a bunch of date rapists (yeah I’m removing all pretense of politeness now), but she’s letting her toilet blog become a spring board for shitting on other people’s intertubez. What is wrong with this woman? She seemed reasonable and sane before this? Is she eating Leadpaintchip-ohs for breakfast?

  316. 316
    Ibis3, Let's burn some bridges

    @danielrudolph

    Disclaimer: I am not a psychologist or therapist or social worker.

    Yeah, I think it was rape. She was asking you to rape her over and over, because that is the only way she can permit herself to have sex. Does she think she’s not worthy of having sex she consents to? Does she feel that she needs to have a boyfriend and thinks the only way she can keep one is to have sex, but she has PTSD so acute that she needs to dissociate as much as possible from the experience? Or is it just another way to punish and abuse herself? I can’t answer that. But what you describe is certainly not consensual and is rather part of a general pattern of self-abuse, with you as the instrument. Don’t do it anymore & get her some help if you’re able.

  317. 317
    Ibis3, Let's burn some bridges

    @danielrudolph

    I posted before I read your latest. It sounds like you’re doing a good job trying to help your friend out of this mess.

  318. 318
    Ace of Sevens

    I would agree people here who are questioning the prevailing opinion are frequently assumed to be arguing in bad faith. Granted, many are arguing in bad faith, but I’ve seen it happen plenty to people who show no strong signs of it.

    I’m not sure what skepticism toward feminist theory means. It’s not universally agreed upon enough to even be possible to be a blind dogmatist unless you actually follow a couple people and not feminism per se.

  319. 319
    Ing

    2) I comment somewhere else, where is unimportant, but a few of you might know. Recently and unusually a strong thread of “Pharyngula is a shitty place” has emerged. Now, there are bits of that I agree with, Pharyngula is a difficult place to comment and discuss sometimes. Less so than some places, more so than others. And the place I refer to is hardly easy if you are at odds with the reality based community! I also think that some people have been poorly treated by the Pharyngulite horde, myself included, and PZ but, and this is a key but, so what?

    This always annoys me. It’s the same level of social blind as “WHY CAN’T I HIT ON SOMEONE IN A LOCKED ROOM!?”.

    LURK before you post, get a feel of the tone and atmosphere, check to the rules of the board if any and try to feel out the social norms. Tread lightly on your first posts and respond to feed back. It’s not a Pharyngula rule, it’s a fucking internet rule. It’s what you do when you go to your first meeting of any club or society or organization. The rules aren’t even that fucking tough to follow. You won’t get banned, you’ll get snarked at or yelled at, oh boohoo. I’ve been to places where talking about sexism gets you suspended or banned for ‘whining’ or ‘bringing up inappropriate topics’. I’ve been to places where entire topics have a no-warning permaban taboo put on them. I’ve been to boards that WERE actually hyper cliquish and had actual splinters and little fatwas and bitchy snipeing bullshit.

    The only thing you have to do to be able to talk on Pharyngula is

    A) Be able to admit when wrong
    B) Failing that or if you dont’ agree you’re wrong, stop digging
    C) Failing either that or if you don’t agree, walk away for a bit.

    Is everyone just so used to people lying to them for the sake of their ego that they’re butthurt over the very idea of a no-bs zone?

  320. 320
    Ing

    I would agree people here who are questioning the prevailing opinion are frequently assumed to be arguing in bad faith. Granted, many are arguing in bad faith, but I’ve seen it happen plenty to people who show no strong signs of it.

    Some of us do have the 3 posts rule.

    Furthermore, even people who don’t think they’re arguing in bad faith often quickly illustrate that they’re just here to preach or reinforce their own views.

  321. 321
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Hey dogmatists, apply your skepticism towards feminist theory.

    Instead of looking like a cowardly defender of rapists, debaser71, why don’t you point out where the mistakes are at.

    I feel sorry for the daughters you are raising.

  322. 322
    Ing

    @Jainine

    But he picked such pretty names for them!

    “Slave” and “Cumdumpster” are beautiful traditional MRA names!

  323. 323
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Hey dogmatists, apply your skepticism towards feminist theory.

    We have, but it comes up clean compared to MRA bullshit, and alleged skeptics like yourself, who accepts bullshit regularly.

  324. 324
    Ing

    Though I sort of agree that we should, me included, presume stupidity rather than malice.

    However, when it’s something like feminism where you get people coming projecting either through malice or stupidity a STFUAD message, hostility may be a proper response. Like with libertarians, if they are that ignorant that they can’t understand why their shit upsets people, especially those of us who should be allowed to die under their theology, then they need the hostility as a wake up call.

  325. 325
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    danielrudolph
    Thank you for elaborating on it.
    You came across different in your first post.
    I know how difficult it is to have people you love and who need care and who don’t allow it to happen.
    It’s one of the hardest lessons I learned in life: You can only help people who want to be helped.

    As for the alcohol, I have explicitely stated that I make a difference between people in a relationship who decide in advance to get drunk first and have sex later.
    That’s miles away from “picking up the drunk girl”.
    But your ex-friends behaviour certainly has crossed the “healthy” line.

  326. 326
    Beth G

    Older brothers usually put a stop to this behavior very quickly. My advice is to introduce your new boyfriend to your brother on your very first date. Total safety ensues.

  327. 327
    Ibis3, Let's burn some bridges

    Hey dogmatists, apply your skepticism towards feminist theory.

    Okay.

    Women are actually people, not objects. CHECK.
    Women are not being treated as people if they are forced to have sex without consent. CHECK.
    Rape happens. CHECK.
    A lot. CHECK.
    Society places the burden upon women to “make sure” they aren’t raped by giving them all kinds of rules about what they should wear and how they should behave (which, by the way, are in complete contradiction to the rules they need to follow to be considered “attractive”–i.e. of any value to the same society). CHECK.
    When rape happens, victims are often blamed or disbelieved, and rapists are often treated as victims. This is unlike every other crime. CHECK.

    Feminist theory? Congruent with reality.

  328. 328
    Carlie

    Louis – thank you for your comments and for sharing your experience.

    I am VASTLY more concerned (note lack of comedy quotes) that otherwise normally rational, normally reasonable people suddenly want to focus on tone alone and avoid the genuine issues brought up by these discussions.

    That’s exactly the thing that has so many of us metaphorically banging our heads against the wall as soon as those tone focusers show up. Yes, the headbanging starts quickly, but that’s because we’ve seen many times exactly where it leads – it leads to completely derailing and not ever talking about the bigger issues. Once you start seeing the pattern, it shows up very clearly the next time around.

  329. 329
    Louis

    Ing, you fucked up, ease back on the hair trigger and re-read please. Especially the self correction immediately afterwards.

    Commenting that the culture at Pharyngula (or anywhere) can be difficult is hardly controversial. It is. This can be as much a feature as a bug and is common across the web.

    You especially missed the bit below that where I mentioned that this “concern” (with appropriate scare quotes) is vastly less concerning than a genuine concern (without scare quotes) about why the issues of feminism etc suddenly cause a mass running for the fainting couch and clutching pearls.

    My point with my 2) was to (relatively gently) allude to the fact that (as is pertinent to the cultural changing aspect of the OP) the “concern” about tone in any environment seems proportional to the sensitivity of the topic and the…shall we say “vested interests” of the concerned. I was trying to explain the thoughts of someone, once utterly clueless on the issue, coming to a position of less cluelessness.

    Cheers

    Louis

  330. 330
    Ing

    Older brothers usually put a stop to this behavior very quickly. My advice is to introduce your new boyfriend to your brother on your very first date. Total safety ensues.

    This is the stupidest fucking thing anyone has ever written.

  331. 331
    Ing

    @Louis

    Oh I wasn’t ranting at you. I was commenting on the criticism you reported elsewhere about how hard it is to comment here. I had no real debate with what you wrote.

  332. 332
    Ing

    @Louis

    Actually I agree with your observation with much vigor. Sorry if it came off that I was yelling at you. I was trying to yell along side on a tangent.

  333. 333
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Beth G, if you are serious, that is too close to the idea that a woman is the property of her family. Also, how does this work for all of the women who do not have an older brother.

    Also, how does this deal with the casual acceptance that rapes happen and is not really a big deal.

    To be honest, I do think that you are engaging in a good old fashioned trolling.

  334. 334
    Dhorvath, OM

    What the hell, Beth G. What about women who have no older brother? What about women who have an older abusive brother? What about making boyfriend responsible for how he interacts with a girlfriend, not some authority male in her life? You need to rethink that idea.

  335. 335
    Carlie

    Older brothers usually put a stop to this behavior very quickly. My advice is to introduce your new boyfriend to your brother on your very first date. Total safety ensues.

    Well, that was entirely unhelpful.

  336. 336
    Ace of Sevens

    What about women with older brothers who will drive everyone away by going overboard with the threats?

  337. 337
    Ace of Sevens

    @ Gileal, I agree, but we weren’t always in a relationship.

    Oh, and this is hardly limited to het and cis spaces. I’ve seen creepy old chickhawks in assless chaps at the gay bar on all-you-can-drink for $5 day, trying to pick up twinks who are blasted out of their mind (and straight guys who came for cheap beer).

  338. 338
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Older brothers usually put a stop to this behavior very quickly. My advice is to introduce your new boyfriend to your brother on your very first date. Total safety ensues.

    And, while we’re at it, let’s institute a rule that all females, outside the house, must be accompanied by a male relative or her husband. And just to make sure, let’s make sure she’s covered head to toe. That’ll prevent all rapes.[/snark]

    That may be the most obnoxious paragraph on this thread. Which is saying a lot.

  339. 339
    Louis

    Carlie,

    No need for thanks, I’m not in this for back pats! But thanks! Damn! And a rash of niceness broke out across the web… ;-)

    This will probably come across as concern-trolly but it ain’t, we leap for our big guns early. Okay, I get that here we are inundated with pond life. We get real MRAs, real misogynists, I think….perhaps I hope….that the vast majority of who we get popping in with “DERP BE TEH SCEPTICALZ ABOUT TEH FEMINIZMZ DERP” (as if the idea had simply never occurred!) are simply what I was: fucking stupid and clueless. Maybe I’m an optimist. I hope so. ;-)

    Now that’s not to excuse their crime of cupidity, nor is it to wring any hands about our own use of “GAH! FUCKWIT MRAS AGAIN!!”, both of which may or may not be justifiable, it’s just to point out that this real concern exists. As if any of us didn’t know.

    What it seems few people notice is that “concern” is pretty small. Sure it’s real, but isn’t it surely a greater concern that, even if like me these guys are simply wrong/clueless (no great crime, eminently workable on), that the distraction of the former minor tone “concern” is what so occupies the discussion with people considered rational? So now I am not concerned about my enemies but my allies.

    The MRAs are easy, they’re wilfully wrong, bigoted and odious. They will go the way of the dodo as the gradual workings of society happen, the ratcheting progress of history documents this nicely. That’s not to say we can be complacent, rather that’s a call to see us work that ratchet harder to move things apace. What worries me is that, like the accomodationists, within our own ranks we have people who would rather clutch their pearls about the meanness of Pharyngula (for example) than engage the issues under discussion meaningfully.

    These people are openly happy to mock/roflstomp creationists for their errors, to be as mean/vitriolic/rhetorically delicious as anyone, but suddenly THIS meanness is wrong? Erm, who passed that law?

    I guess I just don’t get it.

    Louis

  340. 340
    Louis

    Ing,

    Are you saying that I fucked up?

    ME? MEEEEE?

    How How How….

    Oh ok then. My bad, apologies for being a defensive douchberry. ;-)

    Louis

  341. 341
    Ing

    Are you saying that I fucked up?

    no

  342. 342
    LS

    Probably beating a dead horse, but on the subject of drunken sex, where both parties are probably too drunk to properly consent:

    Avoid that situation entirely. Seriously, not much good will likely come of going out into a social area and getting that drun, regardless of any sexual activities. It’s a bad idea all around.

    As for whether or not it is rape? Grey area to be avoided. Legally? That depends.

  343. 343
    Louis

    Older brothers help eh? Well obviously this means that it is unethical for anyone to not have an older brother, therefore we should kill any first born female children and fuck until the brood mare produces a boy, then fuck to produce a girl.

    Ok so it’s hardly Swift, but I liked it.

    Louis

  344. 344
    opposablethumbs

    Beth G, I hope it doesn’t take more than 30 seconds actual thought to realise why what you wrote is beyond wrong.

    Sometimes, if a woman is raped (or chooses to go out with a man her brother doesn’t approve of), fathers and brothers think that “honour” killing is A-OK (killing her, that is. You knew that, right?).

  345. 345
    Louis

    Ing,

    I didn’t fuck up? But, but I’m so good at it! Awwwwww now I’ll have to find a standard to adhere to. I’m blaming you! ;-)

    Louis

  346. 346
    Ibis3, Let's burn some bridges

    I know I should probably ignore, but this is what happens when male relatives are involved in policing a woman’s sex life:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2011/10/21/mtl-shafiatrialdaytwo.html

    Oh, yes. Total safety ensues.

  347. 347
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @danielrudolph:

    And certainly not relegated to cis- only venues. I’ve been on OKCupid for a few weeks, and started to enjoy speaking with some of the people on there, and it so very quickly turned to sexual talk rather than “let me get to know you.” I’ve no doubt it would be a very… uncomfortable situation if I met any of these guys in a bar.

  348. 348
    Ing

    Sometimes the rapist IS the older brother.

    Probably beating a dead horse, but on the subject of drunken sex, where both parties are probably too drunk to properly consent:

    Avoid that situation entirely. Seriously, not much good will likely come of going out into a social area and getting that drun, regardless of any sexual activities. It’s a bad idea all around.

    As for whether or not it is rape? Grey area to be avoided. Legally? That depends.

    Generally if you have to ask “Is this theft/murder/rape/war-crimes/bestiality/child molestation/embezzlement/country music” the better idea is to avoid the situation

  349. 349
    SallyStrange

    No one responded to this post, so I wanted to highlight it:

    A couple of decades ago when I was an undergrad, a friend of mine was going out with someone else in our social group. He was a bit of a narcissist, and never a particularly close friend of mine, but as much part of that circle as anyone else. Then my friend told a few of us that he’d been staying over the previous night and they’d had (consensual) sex before going to bed, but he’d been unable to sleep and woke her up by penetrating her. Naturally, she kicked him straight out. Luckily, she didn’t seem to be too deeply affected beyond realising the guy was a douchenozzle. Although some of us urged her to report him, in retrospect I suspect she was right not to – not that he didn’t deserve it, but given the circumstances there was precisely no chance of the case even getting to court, so the net effect would have been more stress for her. We didn’t start “considering the evidence” or trying to apply “critical thinking”, though. The next couple of times any of us saw the guy, we told him to fuck off, because we don’t put up with rapists. I haven’t seen or heard about him since, so I have no idea if he learned his lesson, but I’m happy to say that not one of my friends defended him for a second.

    This was a great example of how to put #1 and #2 into action. So thanks, Marcus.

  350. 350
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    country music

    Hey!

  351. 351
    Custador

    First of all, I know the focus here is about men who rape women, but can I just say this: It happens to men too. The wording of your post implies that rape only happens to women, and you can trust me on this one, that’s just not true.

    Secondly, there are sections of society where rape is seen as normal. As a Brit, I’ve always been repelled by media presentations of college fraternities – Imagine my horror at hearing from American friends that they know of frats which really are like that – Social clubs that exist to get women drunk and then sexually assault them.

    Finally, it’s pervasive in society to a disturbing degree. Look at the film “Observe and Report” – It’s a comedy, and it contains a rape scene that is used for comedic effect. There’s no debate about whether it’s a rape – the protagonist drugs a woman, takes her home, and while she is still unconscious, he begins to have sexual intercourse with her. She consents AFTER the fact, but that is not the point – it is STILL a rape, and it is STILL in a “comedy” movie.

  352. 352
    Ing

    @Custador

    Pretty sure people were talking about males being raped up thread…and how it isn’t limited to women or even cis/het

    Also you forgot prison. The prison system in the US has a defacto ‘rape as punishment’ system that people widely approve of.

  353. 353
    Ing

    I also have a theory that there is a lot more female on male rape, especially female on male child molestation than we think. I hypothesize that the culture prevents males from speaking about it because no one is looking for that when they’re prepubescent and once they’re post the presumption is that any sexual interest from a woman is wanted, or there’s something wrong with them.

  354. 354
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Custador, please read before you make a claim about what is and is not being discussed. Just about all of the regulars here will never make the claim that only women get raped.

    Also, rape as a punchline, including prison rape, usually leads to the person making the alleged joke getting a rather mean spirited take down.

  355. 355
    LS

    Slightly off-topic, but… brought up some thoughts.

    I know of a couple that are in a very one-sided relationship: she works (he doesn’t), she cleans (he primarily doesn’t), she takes care of the two kids (he primarily doesn’t).

    He’s also verbally (and though she won’t admit it directly, physically) abusive to her. She, however, doesn’t want to talk about the relationship to anyone.

    How would you approach that situation?

  356. 356
    Fear Uncertainty Doubt

    Do you acquit a drunk-driver for manslaughter because they were too drunk?

    Rather more to the point, do you acquit a drunk-driver for manslaughter because the pedestrian they hit was drunk too?

    I think this is an illustration of one problem in this dialogue. If you can call it a dialogue, though it more resembles politics or religion where anyone who deviates from orthodoxy is labeled a Male Rape Apologist, asshole, fuckwit, etc. I thought we were having a discussion of, you know, what might reduce the incidence of rape. Would seem appropriate for a science blog.

    One of the points in my original post, which was immediately slammed as a rape apology, was around the idea of responsibility without “blame”. In the example discussed above, would a drunk pedestrian have “blame” for being hit by a drunk driver? I would say no. It would still benefit to say pedestrians shouldn’t walk around drunk. As a matter of education, would that effort not prevent some amount of tragic , because we know that people drive drunk no matter what is done to stop it?

    Women already have to watch themselves and every single fucking thing they do every single fucking moment of their lives. Women already adjust their lives to protect themselves. Ever ask yourself just why the onus is always on the woman?

    I never said the onus was on the woman. The men who rape and the men who stand by, encourage, or condone it are the ones responsible, and the ones at fault. But again, is this about figuring out how to prevent rape or about declaring blame? I thought it was the former, but the response says otherwise.

    If a woman is in a physically abusive relationship, she isn’t to blame. She’s the victim. Yet it is still up to her to decide to get out. If she stays, she will continue to be abused. Do I think that she is at “fault” for staying? NO. Do I think she deserves it, or think her husband or boyfriend has any less blam because she suck around? NO. Yet a lot of work with abused women is around getting them to have the courage to leave, because ultimately they have to make the choice to protect themselves. They have a certain responsibility, to ask for help, to get to a safe house, anything, for no other reason than that’s the nature of free will and a married relationship. So I don’t think that having a discussion about how women can better protect themselves is rape apology.

    Men are dangerous creatures. To women, to other men, to children. Men are more violent, physically stronger, and (I think) view sex differently than women. This is a profound injustice in the order of things. Society will ever need to find ways to mitigate this, but it’s not going away. I say we need to tell men, “drunk women are not fair game” and tell women, “drunk men are hazardous”. Call it what you will. Call me a rape apologist if you want. But you are being as dogmatic, un-empirical, and as closed-minded as any religious nut if you wish to shut down that line of conversation.

  357. 357
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    First of all, I know the focus here is about men who rape women, but can I just say this: It happens to men too. The wording of your post implies that rape only happens to women, and you can trust me on this one, that’s just not true.

    NO FUCKING SHIT! You want to hear about a Cub Scout leader who declared that there are two types of humans — men and children — and god has declared that men are meant to use children for pleasure and acted on it? I was there and I don’t want to think about it. Knock it off with the whole ‘what about men?’ schtick. There are other threads that discuss sexual abuse of boys and girls, the rape of adult men, and the prison rape punishment system. This is not that thread. Read the original post. Now read it again. This is specifically about the most common kind of rape — a man raping a woman — and, more important, how to begin changing the culture which allows and, in many instances, aproves of rape.

  358. 358
    Custador

    @ Ing: You’re correct in your first reply (I can’t speak for the second) – Male-on-male rape is anecdotally far more common than male-on-female rape, and is just as under-reported – though it’s apparently a lot easier to prove – Anal rape is always going to cause significant physical trauma, and it’s kind of hard to argue consent, at least if the victim is heterosexual. Of course, prison does skew the number heavily – but that in itself is revealing. It suggests that men aren’t rapists for simple physical pleasure – they do it for a psychological feeling of power over their victim. In that sense, rapists can all (in my opinion) be regarded as true sociopaths, suitable for nothing but secure mental hospitals.

  359. 359
    Ing

    Any time someone starts bitching about ‘close mindedness for a science blog’ I’m sorry, I stop reading.

  360. 360
    Custador

    “This is specifically about the most common kind of rape — a man raping a woman — and, more important, how to begin changing the culture which allows and, in many instances, aproves of rape.”

    Lovely. I make a valid point and I get accused of “schtick”. Well fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

    Oh, and FYI, in America male rape it “the most common kind of rape”.

  361. 361
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    LS, you can, if you are able to speak alone with her, let her know that when and if she needs help, she have options. Have numbers ready for a shelter, an advocate, a lawyer and anything else she may need. But realize that she needs to want to be helped.

    There is no guaranty. You can only wait and be prepared when she seeks out help.

  362. 362
    Ingdigo Jump

    Male-on-male rape is anecdotally far more common than male-on-female rape, and is just as under-reported

    I think you meant FEMALE on male rape. No one seriously debates that male on female rape is the most common.

    In that sense, rapists can all (in my opinion) be regarded as true sociopaths, suitable for nothing but secure mental hospitals.

    JESUS FUCKING CHRIST WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!

    You could not BE more wrong!

    http://blogingproject.blogspot.com/2011/05/what-is-man.html

  363. 363
    Carlie

    In that sense, rapists can all (in my opinion) be regarded as true sociopaths, suitable for nothing but secure mental hospitals.

    And in that sense, you are wrong. Not just wrong, but also absolving an awful lot of “gray area” rapists. Hey, I wasn’t really doing it for power, I was just really horny, and she didn’t really put up that much of a fight, and I’m a good guy, and she even said I was a good guy, so I’m not really a rapist. And she can’t complain about it, because if there wasn’t that much of a power struggle involved, it must not have been really rape. If you paint all rapists as sociopaths who need permanent separation from society, then most rapists will slip right under the radar.

  364. 364
    Ingdigo Jump

    Most of the most horrible crimes in history were done by normal people.

  365. 365
    Ace of Sevens

    @Custador: What about the closet cases?

  366. 366
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Oh, and FYI, in America male rape it “the most common kind of rape”.

    Really?

  367. 367
    Carlie

    I make a valid point and I get accused of “schtick”.

    Try reading the goddamned thread first. That point was brought up multiple times. It was addressed as valid every time, and pointed out that the facts that men use it to dominate over other men and that men are even more reluctant to report it (since it makes them more of a wimpy “womanish” person) is part of the exact same rape culture we’re already talking about.

  368. 368
    A. R

    Not sure if the following is a derail, or a red-pill moment, but I’ve just realized that many aspects of rape culture (men not being able to control themselves, women being responsible for rape (and should cover themselves so the menz don’t want to rape them because they can’t control themselves) sounds much like the Islamic misogyny that treats women like objects and men like children. Comments?

  369. 369
    Ingdigo Jump

    @A.R

    Huh? A duck just dropped from the ceiling

  370. 370
    LS

    A. R:

    Indeed. There are some similarities. We humans, as a whole, need to grow the fuck up, and deal with the problems we create, personally and as a whole.

  371. 371
    julian

    though it more resembles politics or religion where anyone who deviates from orthodoxy is labeled a Male Rape Apologist, asshole, fuckwit, etc.

    Of course. You’re the victim here.

  372. 372
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    A.R., that has been commented on multiple times over the years, just on this blog. It is common knowledge.

    Also, the same thing can be said about the more fundamental versions of the other Abrahamic religions, Judaism and Christianity. Islam is hardly alone in this.

  373. 373
    Custador

    Ing, thank you for your implication that all men are rapists. I’ve just read your blog entry, and all I can say is this: There’s a massive difference between feminism and misandry, and you’re on the wrong side of that particular line.

    “I think you meant FEMALE on male rape. No one seriously debates that male on female rape is the most common.”

    In the USA? 70,000 male on female rapes per year. 420,000 male on male rapes IN PRISON ALONE. What, it’s not rape because it’s happening to a criminal?

  374. 374
    SallyStrange

    Oh, and FYI, in America male rape it (sic) “the most common kind of rape”.

    You’ll need some citations to back that up. Rape of adults is far more common for women than it is for men. Orders of magnitude more common.

    Rape of children is more difficult to quantify.

    Overview of Child Sexual Abuse Statistics

    The National Resource Council estimates the percent of the U.S. population which has been sexually abused to range from a low of 20-24 percent to a high of 54-62 percent of the population; the higher estimate includes sexualized exposure without touching, such as masturbating in front of the child.1 The largest retrospective study on the prevalence of child sexual abuse found 27 percent of women and 16 percent of men reported abuse.

    Studies examining victimization of boys have recorded rates ranging from 3 to 31 percent of all men. Male victimization is particularly hard to estimate due to beliefs that only girls can be abused; that sex between older women and boys is desirable; that male victimization of boys indicates lack of masculinity and/or acquiescence by the child.

    So I must wonder where your certainty on the subject comes from.

  375. 375
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Julian

    I so hate that defensive beating around the bush attempt to insulate yourself from abuse by attacking the character of your opponents before you get to your point.

    I am sick of commenting here where anytime someone says something controversial a bunch of nazi dolphin fuckers start screaming someone down into submission. Well no, more. I will not be intimidated by those nazi dolphin fucker horrible people who will disagree with my point. I will say my point no matter what those horrible horrible dolphin fuckers who disagree with me say. Coke is better than Pepsi. Now I await the disagreement from all those dolphin fucker nazis.

  376. 376
    Ingdigo Jump

    In the USA? 70,000 male on female rapes per year. 420,000 male on male rapes IN PRISON ALONE. What, it’s not rape because it’s happening to a criminal?

    You want to go back an read what I say and back away slowly from that line you’re treading.

  377. 377
    Carlie

    Ing, thank you for your implication that all men are rapists.

    AAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH

  378. 378
    Ace of Sevens

    @ Custador: Where are you getting those figures? Your male-on-female figures must be off by a factor of ten at least.

  379. 379
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Ing, thank you for your implication that all men are rapists.

    Custador, you are not helping your case by tossing out such stupid and baseless accusations. I am beginning to think you came here for a fight.

  380. 380
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I make a valid point and I get accused of “schtick”.

    You didn’t evidence your point with a citation, so it is opinion, not a valid point. You did prove that you are egotistical and whiny though.

  381. 381
    A. R

    As I’d mentioned, red pill moment. Islam came into my head first due to the connotations that our society has assigned it, but yes any fundie religion could do the same thing. In fact, that is undoubtedly how rape culture developed here in the United States.

    @Ing: Not sure what you mean.

  382. 382
    LS

    Rape statistics are notoriously hard to pin down, due to under-reporting.

    No real amount of certainty can be reached when you’re working with gross estimates.

    That said, there are arguments for one side being more under-reported than the other… but until we can read minds, it’s unsure exactly how much it is under-reported.

  383. 383
    Custador

    Carlie, have you read the blog post Ing linked to? The tl;dr version is: “Rapists are 100% normal men. Normal men are rapists. Rape is in the normal behaviour range for human men.”

    Speaking as a normal man who isn’t a rapist, and who in fact is certain that he’s incapable of ever dehumanising anybody in that way, I take exception to that. It’s misandry, plain and simple.

  384. 384
    A. R

    I have to imagine that gender roles prevent men reporting, and that rape culture prevents women from reporting. Both need to be done away with before we see major improvement.

  385. 385
    SallyStrange

    Men are dangerous creatures. To women, to other men, to children. Men are more violent, physically stronger, and (I think) view sex differently than women.

    This is an assertion, not a fact.

    I propose an experiment to test the truth of this assertion: let’s create a society where boys and young men are not taught that their manliness is one of the most important things about them, and that their manliness is not inherently bound up in being tough, dangerous, able to dominate, scornful of risk and fear, inconsiderate of others’ feelings, and in a perpetual state of nearly-uncontrollable desire for hetero sex.

    Once we create that society, we will know for sure whether men are inherently dangerous creatures.

    Personally, I’m skeptical. If it were so much in the nature of men to be this way, I don’t think so much cultural programming would be required to get them to conform to these standards of masculinity. It’s kind of like how patriarchal religions assert that women don’t like sex, then expend tons of energy and effort on ensuring that women never have the chance to choose sex. The effort expended in enforcing conformity to the idea belies the assertion that the characteristic is instinctual or inherent.

  386. 386
    A. R

    Personally, I’m skeptical. If it were so much in the nature of men to be this way, I don’t think so much cultural programming would be required to get them to conform to these standards of masculinity.

    QFT. You only need to look as far as the gender reinforcement provided by our cultural institutions to see this.

  387. 387
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Custador, it would really be easy to just claim that rapists are just sociopaths who are not really a part of human society. But that is not true. In many cases, their actions are dismissed or laughed off. “She was leading him on.” “She was drunk and she wanted it.”

    The argument is not that all normal men are rapists. The argument is that most rapists appear to be normal men. Can you see the difference?

  388. 388
    SallyStrange

    Rapists are 100% normal men. Normal men are rapists. Rape is in the normal behaviour range for human men.”

    Speaking as a normal man who isn’t a rapist, and who in fact is certain that he’s incapable of ever dehumanising anybody in that way, I take exception to that. It’s misandry, plain and simple.

    Even in the bowdlerized version of Ing’s thesis, there’s nothing there for you to take offense to.

    You’re a normal man, but you don’t rape. Other men, who appear normal in every respect, don’t rape. In other words, rapists aren’t mentally ill and they’re not social pariahs. They fit right in with society. And if they do rape, society provides them with a lot of cover via rape culture narratives about relationships between men and women (“she should have known,” “she was asking for it,” “it was just drunk sex,” “it was just sex that she later regretted,” etc.) so that they can get away with it and continue raping.

    Wouldn’t you like to live in a culture where rape is defined as abnormal behavior for men?

  389. 389
    Custador

    @ danielrudolph: The prison rape statistic is from a Human Rights Watch report from 2001. I can’t find the source I used for the M2f rape figure, but to offer an alternative, RAINN say there were 248,300 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault in the US in 2007, which obviously doesn’t include prison rape.

    9 out of 10 (non-prison) rape victims are women, so:

    Female rape victims: 223,470 per year. Male rape victims: 444,830.

  390. 390
    SallyStrange

    Correction:

    You’re a normal man, but you don’t rape. Other men, who appear normal in every respect, don’t DO rape.

  391. 391
    Ze Madmax

    Custador @ #383

    “Rapists are 100% normal men. Normal men are rapists. Rape is in the normal behaviour range for human men.”

    Reading comprehension quiz time!

    The paragraph quoted above can be interpreted as:

    a) Rape is not psychologically abnormal. “Normal” males (and females) can engage in abusive behavior (e.g., rape). This behavior is NOT necessarily an indication of abnormal psychological functioning (e.g., sociopathy), but it simply reflects the fact that societal conditions can enable people to act in harmful ways without the presence of psychological dysfunction.

    b) Men are innate rape-machines.

    If you answered “a”, congratulations! You understand the importance of taking social structures into consideration when talking about rape.

    If you answered “b”, you’re a fucking moron.

  392. 392
    LS

    Ing’s post basically says that ‘rapists are often otherwise normal’. That is, there generally isn’t an obvious clue in their psychology as to why they would do this.

    Rape IS an antisocial behavior, but it’s not so simple as to say ‘they’re just psychopaths’. Rapists aren’t necessarily complete monsters. They did something incredibly damaging to another, and should be rehabilitated, punished to deter others, and furthermore receive psychiatric help to get to the bottom of *why* they did it and prevent it in the future, but they’re still human.

  393. 393
    Custador

    @ Ze Madmax: Have a read about what a sociopath is for me, will you? http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

    Somebody who can project themselves as being a normal person with a normal person’s ability to empathise with the suffering of others, while in actual fact also possessing the ability to dehumanise people and cause them lasting physical and psychological harm – That. Is. A. Sociopath.

  394. 394
    SallyStrange

    The Human Rights Watch report on prison rape:

    Yet prison authorities’ claims are belied by independent research on the topic. Indeed, the most recent academic studies of the issue have found shockingly high rates of sexual abuse, including forced oral and anal intercourse. In December 2000, the Prison Journal published a study based on a survey of inmates in seven men’s prison facilities in four states. The results showed that 21 percent of the inmates had experienced at least one episode of pressured or forced sexual contact since being incarcerated, and at least 7 percent had been raped in their facility. A 1996 study of the Nebraska prison system produced similar findings, with 22 percent of male inmates reporting that they had been pressured or forced to have sexual contact against their will while incarcerated. Of these, over 50 percent had submitted to forced anal sex at least once. Extrapolating these findings to the national level gives a total of at least 140,000 inmates who have been raped.

    And look: Here’s a LINKY, the preferred method of those arguing in good faith for demonstrating their honesty and giving their interlocutors a chance to check out the facts themselves.

    Custador, you’re not doing so hot right now. Prison rape is a horrible manifestation of rape culture and it should stop immediately. I fail to see how this is relevant to the topic at hand, however, which is changing the culture at large–not just in prison–so that rapists, particularly those who target women, as the majority of them do, are less able to get away with their crimes.

  395. 395
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Custador, you are making a bad comparison if you are comparing the rape of women in open society to the rape of men in prison.

    First, the rape of women is severely under reported.

    Second, prison rape is, in a lot of ways, encouraged.

    Third, there is not a person here who thinks that prison rape should be condoned.

    I still think that you came here just to get into a fight.

  396. 396
    SallyStrange

    Somebody who can project themselves as being a normal person with a normal person’s ability to empathise with the suffering of others, while in actual fact also possessing the ability to dehumanise people and cause them lasting physical and psychological harm – That. Is. A. Sociopath.

    Exactly. Many rapists don’t fit that description. Our culture teaches non-sociopathic men that it’s okay to act like a sociopath towards women.

  397. 397
    Custador

    *facepalm*

  398. 398
    SallyStrange

    *facepalm*

    Well, that was helpful.

  399. 399
    SallyStrange

    Research is still pretty shaky in this, but as things as shaking out, it seems like extreme narcissism coupled with misogyny are more likely to be associated with raping than sociopathy is.

  400. 400
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Custedor would not have to facepalm if we just gave in and admitted that the prison rape of men is a much bigger problem then the rape of women and besides, rapists are not normal men.

  401. 401
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Sorry, Custador. I should at least spell his moniker right.

  402. 402
    A. R

    Research is still pretty shaky in this, but as things as shaking out, it seems like extreme narcissism coupled with misogyny are more likely to be associated with raping than sociopathy is.

    Sounds plausible. Out of curiosity, do you know how much of the research is based on interviews with convicted rapists? That would certainly be a fascinating study.

  403. 403
    SallyStrange

    What Custador was describing is more properly termed psychopathy.

    The last main difference between psychopathy and sociopathy is in the presentation. The psychopath is callous, yet charming. He or she will con and manipulate others with charisma and intimidation and can effectively mimic feelings to present as “normal” to society. The psychopath is organized in their criminal thinking and behavior, and can maintain good emotional and physical control, displaying little to no emotional or autonomic arousal, even under situations that most would find threatening or horrifying. The psychopath is keenly aware that what he or she is doing is wrong, but does not care.

    Conversely, the sociopath is less organized in his or her demeanor; he or she might be nervous, easily agitated, and quick to display anger. A sociopath is more likely to spontaneously act out in inappropriate ways without thinking through the consequences. Compared to the psychopath, the sociopath will not be able to move through society committing callous crimes as easily, as they can form attachments and often have “normal temperaments.” The sociopath will lie, manipulate and hurt others, just as the psychopath would, but will often avoid doing so to the select few people they care about, and will likely feel guilty should they end up hurting someone they care about.

    True psychopaths constitute about 1% of the population.

    Rapists constitute between 6 – 12% of the population.

    There is likely plenty of overlap, but that still leaves a lot of men who aren’t psychopaths who are committing rapes.

  404. 404
    Rey Fox

    Sally: But you see, if I define “sociopath” as “one who rapes”, then your research is invalid.

  405. 405
    SallyStrange

    Basically, Custador is talking out his ass.

    A.R., yes, some of that research is from interviews with convicted rapists, other research is based on anonymous surveys with self-reporting rapists. The “Yes Means Yes!” blog has a comprehensive run-down of this research and what it means for society and preventing rape. I highly recommend checking it out.

  406. 406
    A. R

    Sally, Thanks, I’ll do that, it’s a fascinating, if depressing topic.

  407. 407
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Okay, see here, Cupcake.
    Approximately 25% of women will be raped at least once in their lifetime.
    The current population of the US is about 300 million so there are about 150 million women in the country. On average, women live to be around 75 years old.
    So:
    (150,000,000 * 25%) / 75 = 80,000 rapes pet year.
    And this is excluding women who have been raped more than once.
    Oh , and there’s a lot of evidence suggesting that 25% is an underestimate.

  408. 408
    Ze Madmax

    Custador @ #393:

    Somebody who can project themselves as being a normal person with a normal person’s ability to empathise with the suffering of others, while in actual fact also possessing the ability to dehumanise people and cause them lasting physical and psychological harm – That. Is. A. Sociopath.

    The problem with this definition is that, under specific social circumstances, anybody can be a sociopath. Consider Milgram’s Obedience Study (1963) and Phil Zimbardo’s Stanford Prison Experiment (1974). In both cases, perfectly normal people dehumanized and eitehr caused or thought they caused lasting harm to others.

  409. 409
    Ace of Sevens

    @ Sally Strange. That sounds about right. From the women I’ve known who’ve been raped, guy having his head so far up his ass that he just couldn’t conceive that a woman might not want to have sex is the most common reason.

  410. 410
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Older brothers usually put a stop to this behavior very quickly. My advice is to introduce your new boyfriend to your brother on your very first date. Total safety ensues.

    So that means I’m free to be raped since I don’t have an older owner brother?
    You know, there is a 3 post rule, but some people don’t need it. And I seriously think that our sudden infestation with one post wonders with female nyms aren’t so much sock-puppets than slime-monsters.

    danielrudolph
    I should have made myself clearer, I meant relationship in a broader sense, which includes “friends with benefits”.

    custador
    Come back when you have agreed with yourself on what numbers to use. Backing them up is generally preferred

  411. 411
    pelamun

    A.R.,

    it’s not just fundie Christianity, there’s plenty of it in mainstream Christianity too. Or Judaism. Or Shintoism or Hinduism. And those cultural traditions independent of religion per se (some argue that the honour killing mentality doesn’t come from religion, but from some kind of tribalist mindset, though I daresay for the women maimed or killed it doesn’t really matter whether it was due to religious or cultural reasons). Our entire societies are based on patriarchic ideologies that are conducive to a rape culture. Your focus on Islam or fundie Christianity just means you have a blind spot for your own cultural background (by which I implicitly assumed that your background was mainstream Christianity rather than fundie Christianity, but even if you are a lapsed fundie, my points still stands I think)

  412. 412
    pelamun

    To all who’ve shared their experiences here. Thank you, this is always been a very important part of what this blog is about to me.

  413. 413
    SallyStrange

    A meta-analysis of prison rape studies published by the National Criminal Justice Reference Service in 2006 estimated that the rate of rape or sexual assault of prisoners was about 2% over a prisoner’s lifetime of incarceration. Which is awful and horrible, but rather contradictory to Custador’s claims.

    The analysis was done pursuant to the Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003. It noted that more research was needed on the subject. One would imagine such research has been done in the past five years. If Custador is truly concerned about the welfare of prison rape victims, I’d expect that he’d have at least a few of these more recent studies close at hand.

  414. 414
    The Ys

    So:
    (150,000,000 * 25%) / 75 = 80,000 rapes pet year.
    And this is excluding women who have been raped more than once.
    Oh , and there’s a lot of evidence suggesting that 25% is an underestimate.

    I checked the 2010 census figures, so we have (rounding to nearest whole number):

    U.S. population = 308,745,538
    Percentage female = 50.8%

    So:
    308,745,538 * 0.508 = 156,842,733

    156,842,733 * 0.25 = 39,210,683

    39,210,683 / 75 = 522,809

    And that’s not counting women who’ve been raped more than once.

    Anyone who tells me that’s not an epidemic-level proportion can sit and spin on a stationary porcupine.

  415. 415
    Rossignol

    @ Esteleth. Where does the 25% figure come from?

  416. 416
    The Ys

    Rats. Sorry, that should have been:

    39,210,683 / 75 = 522,809 rapes per year

    I need more coffee.

  417. 417
    SallyStrange

    RAINN stats say that every year, about 213,000 sexual assaults occur. This does not make note of whether these victims are male or female, but it does also say that 9 out of 10 victims were female. It also notes that 44% of these victims are under 18.

    http://www.rainn.org/statistics

    RAINN says 1 in 6 women will be subject to attempted or completed sexual assault. The numbers are imprecise because of an estimated 60% rate of non-reporting. Some surveys have put it as high as 1 in 3 women. Numbers are based on anonymous surveys, hotline calls, etc. I go with the RAINN stats because they are easily accessible, reliable, and it’s not like 1 in 6 is NOT an epidemic.

  418. 418
    Thomathy, Gay Where it Counts

    Another thread on this topic and I just had a moment of realisation. I’ve been mulling on this nagging suspicion of mine for months now, but haven’t been able to pull it together into anything like coherence. There were fragments of thought, disconnected and yet obviously there had to be a way to tie them all together into a coherent statement. I think I’ve got it now, so let me try (it’s fresh, so bear with me):

    I really don’t get the people who come here and wander into rape country. I understand rape culture and I understand the myriad motivations all the various people (mostly straight men) have in defending it, but I still don’t get the apologists and questioners and deniers and rape country strollers. It’s probably the fact that there doesn’t seem to be anything to be gained playing the apologist for a crime that they don’t think they have and don’t believe they will commit. It makes me suspicious of them and I find them very confusing.

    However, I’m specifically concerned here with the people who have difficulty with understanding what enthusiastic consent is and need reassurances that they’ve had it or will have it if only they knew where the line is. It’s very easy seeming to me and Sally Strange, OM, much farther up-thread, in answering a question about why cis- and het- identified spaces were specifically targeted, did touch on a point that I think explains my ease in understanding enthusiastic consent and my difficulty in understanding how people can have difficulty with understanding what it is. I’m gay (I say that a lot here, I think, but it can’t just be taken for granted) and I think it’s quite true that non-heteronormative people probably deal with sexual encounters very differently than heteronormative or heterosexual people.

    First, there’s the fact that gay men actively seek sexual encounters in spaces, both virtual and real, where other gay men are also seeking the same thing. (Of course this happens with all people, but this particular example is, I think quite relevant and it’s also within my experience.) Deals have to be brokered before the sexual encounters can even take place and enthusiastic consent is a requirement, or obviously no one is getting a specific invitation. This probably reduces the chance that consent is fuzzy and thereby reduces instances of rape. In a culture like that, and given the other ways as I’ve explained in other threads, gay men have to negotiate sexual encounters, I’ve never had anything but enthusiastic consent. I have never experienced the case where consent is anything but 100%. That goes, for those with questions about how drunk is too drunk, for times when a partner and I have been particularly drunk. There’s really never been any room for doubt, and that goes back to the fact that sexual encounters need to be explicitly arranged.

    Of course, there are exceptions, because rape does occur among gay men, so people obviously do take advantage of each other, or fail to get enthusiastic consent intentionally or otherwise, but baring those cases, it’s difficult to imagine a way in which a sexual encounter between gays won’t include enthusiastic consent. That might sound like a variation of no-true Scotsman, but the same rationalisation doesn’t apply to straight sexual encounters, as I get at below.

    I suppose, in what might be an analogous situation like a straight bar, that the heteronormative rape culture that is particularly relevant there precludes the notion for some privilege-ignorant straight men that consent is even necessary at all. I also suppose that many straight men expect that sex must be vaginal and penetrative, which removes a key aspect of the gay male sexual encounter, namely discussing what will constitute the sexual encounter and agreeing to it mutually. I suspect, then, that sex is ‘easier’ for straight men, especially if they have such a one-sided and simple idea of what a sexual encounter might consist of, and given the idea that their partner doesn’t need to be consulted because it’s already been decided that it’s about ‘fucking’.

    So, that explains my difficultly in understanding how people need to even question what enthusiastic consent amounts to. From my perspective it seems like a silly question. It seems like it to anyone, really, who has concern for their prospective partner’s wants and for whom sex is more than penetrative and vaginal. Obviously, those people are not the men steeped in rape culture to whom the above analysis applies. Having finally wrapped my head around this, however, I’m left even more disgusted by the, fortunately, alien rape culture being discussed here lately and, frankly, more perplexed by it. It’s larger, more nuanced, pervasive and ingrained that I previously had thought and that’s really …unfortunate.

    I propose a #5 for that list in the OP by Feministe:

    (5) Men, ask your potential sex partner what sex acts they want to engage in as part of your proposal to ‘head back to my place’. Oh, it might be awkward, but if you ask, ‘What are you into? You know, sexually?’ You’ll know much faster if she wants to have sex with you and what that sex will include, or whether she’s really not into you or your penis.

  419. 419
    Custador

    The Ys: If you’re going to use RAINN’s figures, you might like to use ALL of RAINN’s figures:

    “In 2004-2005, 64,080 women were raped. According to medical reports, the incidence of pregnancy for one-time unprotected sexual intercourse is 5%. By applying the pregnancy rate to 64,080 women, RAINN estimates that there were 3,204 pregnancies as a result of rape during that period.”

    Link: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

    A factor of 8 below your estimate. I’m not saying that’s not still an epidemic (it clearly is), but if you’re going to try to slap me over the stats I used, you might want to be more careful about your own.

    What was the human rights watch figure again? 22% of prison inmates? The prison population is 2.1 million.

  420. 420
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Thomathy, you’re exactly right about how we gay men (largely) negotiate sexual encounters. Very, very well put.

  421. 421
    Ace of Sevens

    I think you are mixing a source with a very strict definition of rape with one that includes all forms of sexual assault.

  422. 422
    Custador

    Even if you exclude everything but actual, completed rape, the low estimate is 140,000. And that’s one that somebody else quoted earlier, not me.

  423. 423
    Ace of Sevens

    Isn’t 140,000, which you are call a low estimate, twice the figure you were quoting a few hours ago?

  424. 424
    SallyStrange

    Thanks Thomathy, that was really interesting. Yes, that’s part of what I was thinking of when I was talking about non-het, non-cis encounters: you pretty much have to discuss beforehand exactly what you’re going to do, sexually, so there’s much less chance that there’ll be any doubt at all as to whether your partner is really into this or that.

    On the other hand, for straight cis encounters, there’s a narrative already going:

    1. Sex consists of penis in vagina

    2. All women secretly want it but must be convinced to accept it

    3. All men want it all the time with all women

    4. Women who don’t conform to #2 and men who don’t conform to #3 aren’t “real” women and men, they are sluts/bitches or fags/pussies.

    Rape culture provides the dominant narrative for dating, so it’s not surprising that date rape is so very common.

  425. 425
    clarewilkinson


    Here
    is a portion from Deborah Cameron’s terrific book on language and gender that wonderfully demolishes apologies for acquaintance rape. It always bugged me that attributing claims of assault to “miscommunication” allowed predators to “disappear” into the crowd of universally bemused and clueless males. The best sentence comes after Cameron considers the kind of advice dished out about how to avoid rape by giving “clear signals”…

    “This advice presupposes that men who persist in making unwanted sexual advances are genuinely confused, and will be happy to have their confusion dispelled by a simple, firm “No”. It does not allow for the possibility that men who behave in this way are not so much confused about women’s wishes as indifferent to them.”

  426. 426
    SallyStrange

    Custador, are you here to play the Oppression Olympics?

    Everybody loses in the Oppression Olympics.

  427. 427
    Zerple

    Thanks for the link in the article. I’ll read the stuff, then form opinions. The only discussion I’ve ever had about this, was a class lecture from an unpleasant campus crime representative, who basically started her lecture by accusing every male in the room of being a rapist. Hopefully the link will clear up some confusion I have.

  428. 428
    Custador

    Okay, this is needlessly combative. Let me rewind here a little bit: My opening reply to this thread pointed out a couple of issues of rape culture that hadn’t already been mentioned, and also that I found it vexing that the OP is worded in such a way as to imply the rape is a strictly male-on-female issue.

    In reply I got Ogvorbis rather emotively telling me that this thread is only about female rape and if I wanted to talk about that other rape, well, I’d better take it elsewhere (nb: to me, rape is rape. The gender of the victim doesn’t matter, and I think it’s needlessly divisive to treat men who rape men separately from men who rape women – They’re all rapists).

    Next I got an offensive worded wall of text from Ing telling me that I was wrong (nb: IN HER OPINION the statement I made was wrong, and apparently I’m not allowed to disagree with her without being ripped into). There are ways of doing that for effect and to provoke thought. That is not it.

    Then I got Ze Madmax calling me a “fucking moron”, followed by Esteleth rather patronisingly addressing me as “cupcake”. Tell me, Esteleth, how would you respond to being addressed as “cupcake” by me? There we go then.

    Now, can you see why I’m finding the overtone of this thread to be quite bullying?

  429. 429
    Custador

    @ danielrudolph – No, it’s less than half. I’m talking about prison rape again.

  430. 430
    Custador

    @ Sally: No. If I wanted to tell stories about actual oppression, I could. But I don’t play story-toppers with those.

  431. 431
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    Custador, you are the one who made the claim that the issue of male on male prison rape is a greater problem than male on female rape. Hardly a way to make a good impression. You earned your “cupcake”, cupcake.

  432. 432
    Custador

    Yuhu. And I’ve since given the figures to back it up. My goodness me, there’s a bullying little clique going on in here.

  433. 433
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    My opening reply to this thread pointed out a couple of issues of rape culture that hadn’t already been mentioned,

    Which has been extensively discussed on other threads of this topic. Over 6000 posts to date.

    also that I found it vexing that the OP is worded in such a way as to imply the rape is a strictly male-on-female issue.

    That is the predominant mode. You haven’t shown otherwise, merely tried to muddy the waters.

  434. 434
    RandomReason

    The article provides data that suggests to me two practical ways in which we can substantially reduce probability of rape without increasing barriers to socialization.

    1) Alcohol plays a major role in rape. Excess consumption of alcohol weakens inhibitions – which, in men, may reduce resistance to aggression and weaken receptivity to social constraints against rape.

    Alcohol impairs observation and judgment – which, in women, may reduce normal alertness to danger signs, and, in men, may reduce awareness of even the most obvious social cues and discomfort shown by women to unwanted approaches.

    In extreme cases, drunkenness can lead to unconsciousness, leaving women in private situations particularly vulnerable to assault.

    Alcoholism is clearly a factor in rape within families and among acquaintances.
    It doesn’t stop there. The strong cultural link between socializing & drinking, and the role bars play as primary places to pair, creates ripe conditions for abuse.

    Our culture strongly glamorizes associates excess drinking by college-age as a right-of-passage, portrays drunks as funny, cool & sexy, despite the fact that chronic and/or excessive alcohol consumption has been shown to reduce testosterone production. Sadly, and perhaps non-intuitively, this can become a contributor to violent sexual assault, as frustration at inability to ejaculate and reduces pleasurability during sex, coupled with reduced inhibition, can lead to men “taking it out” on their partners. This can lead to instances where sex begins consensually but turns into rape.

    So, one obvious intervention is to change cultural norm and public attitudes towards alcohol through public education. The success of anti-smoking campaigns provide a case study to emulate.

    2) The data showing that the overwhelming majority of rapes are *not* committed by strangers, but by family & acquaintances, suggests that our approach to educating women about risk-management may need tweaking. Based on the statements put forward commonly here and in many other forums, it seems that many women have been taught to fear “Stranger-Danger” disproportionately. Not only can this have unfortunate consequences in terms of inhibiting the ability of young women and men connecting, meeting and socializing naturally. More importantly it can lead to relative blindness to real risk.

    It is well known that humans are poor evaluators of risk probability. We often focus on, fear and prepare ourselves for unlikely risks, while downplaying much likelier risks.

    This can be seen in everything from the way the TSA acts, to the way people panic about satellites falling from orbit while blithely texting while driving.
    This is not to say that women do not need to be aware of risk from stranger rape. It does suggest, however, that fearing a man saying hi in a crowded coffee house may carry greater relative costs than raising awareness among male family members and acquaintances.

    So, one obvious intervention is to increase education about acquaintance rape, and to make sure that we don’t spend nearly all our time talking about how to say hi to a woman on the bus – and, that women may be able to be less fearful, & hyperalert and off-putting in coffeehouses and Meetups, while increasing alertness at office parties and family reunions.

    That’s just a quick thought on how to actually improve how we deal with a profoundly complex issue, and I’m sure others have better ideas.

  435. 435
    SallyStrange

    Okay, this is needlessly combative.

    With this very post, you have demonstrated how needful the combativeness is. Allow me to demonstrate.

    Let me rewind here a little bit: My opening reply to this thread pointed out a couple of issues of rape culture that hadn’t already been mentioned,

    Except that they were.

    and also that I found it vexing that the OP is worded in such a way as to imply the rape is a strictly male-on-female issue.

    The OP makes no such implication. It simply recognizes that the vast majority of rape victims are women, and the vast majority of rapists are men, and that there are social narratives at work that cause this disparity in genders. You contend that if one includes figures from prison rape, more men than women are rape victims, but because you’ve been unable to substantiate your claims (the one source you offered doesn’t back up your numbers), you don’t have a leg to stand on. Since you seem okay with the RAINN numbers, consider that according to them, 1 in 33 men will be subject to attempted or completed sexual assault during their lifetime.

    In reply I got Ogvorbis rather emotively telling me that this thread is only about female rape and if I wanted to talk about that other rape, well, I’d better take it elsewhere

    Rather emotively!?!?! My goodness, clutch the pearls and call for the fainting couch. This is an emotional issue for a lot of people. Ogvorbis’ feelings on the matter do no discredit the substance of his statement in any way. Your bringing it up calls your motives into question. Indeed, this is a thread about the interactions between men and women outside of prison. Ogvorbis is correct.

    (nb: to me, rape is rape. The gender of the victim doesn’t matter, and I think it’s needlessly divisive to treat men who rape men separately from men who rape women – They’re all rapists).

    Indeed, the gender of the victim doesn’t matter in terms of whether he or she is considered a victim. But one’s gender does determine how likely one is to be raped in the first place (women are more likely) and how likely one is to report it and be believed (men are at a disadvantage here). I see rape as essentially a hate crime that is perpetrated primarily against women. It’s also used against men and transgendered individuals who fail to conform to the gender binary–this is evidently something that rapists value highly, rigid gender roles. As far as prison rape goes, it’s an extension of these hierarchies of values. Younger men and men of color are more likely to be raped while in prison.

    Next I got an offensive worded wall of text from Ing telling me that I was wrong (nb: IN HER OPINION the statement I made was wrong, and apparently I’m not allowed to disagree with her without being ripped into). There are ways of doing that for effect and to provoke thought. That is not it.

    You do not have the right to expect people not to “rip into” you. If you have an opinion, and want to share it, be prepared to be disagreed with. Sometimes in *gasp!* impolite terms! You are now tone trolling. Tone trolling is the last resort of a person whose argument has been demolished.

    Then I got Ze Madmax calling me a “fucking moron”, followed by Esteleth rather patronisingly addressing me as “cupcake”. Tell me, Esteleth, how would you respond to being addressed as “cupcake” by me? There we go then.

    How terrible for you. But this has nothing to do with the substantive criticisms of your opinions. In fact, I wrote a couple of insult-free paragraphs detailing some of the problems with your assertions and challenging your facts. But you ignored me in favor of crying and moaning about being called names on the internet.

    Now, can you see why I’m finding the overtone of this thread to be quite bullying?

    Yes, it’s because you’re a moronic whiner who can’t back up his opinions with links and sources, and doesn’t like being called out on it.

  436. 436
    myeck waters

    Custodor, what is your deal? Are you saying that male-on-female rape isn’t a bad problem?

    Because if you’re NOT saying that, then what’s the point of the endless quibbling about numbers?

    And if you ARE saying that, then even the lowball numbers you’re using are horrendous.

  437. 437
    RandomReason

    Quick edit:

    It does suggest, however, that fearing a man saying hi in a crowded coffee house may carry greater relative costs than raising awareness among male family members and acquaintances.

    Should have said, “may carry greater relative costs and provide less risk reduction than

  438. 438
    myeck waters

    Custador, not Custodor. Saw the typo as I hit Submit.

  439. 439
    Custador

    Myeck: No. I explicitly did NOT say that. I explicitly said the EXACT OPPOSITE.

  440. 440
    mb

    Don’t know where the 400K prison rape stats came from. Here they estimate 70K in state and federal prison for 2007.

    http://www.hrw.org/news/2007/12/15/us-federal-statistics-show-widespread-prison-rape

  441. 441
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Custador:

    And, may I ask, what your point is?

    Rape is rape, yes, that’s true. The topic was about male-on-female, yes. People in this thread have mentioned male-on-male and female-on-male rape.

    Whining and complaining about how we’re not paying attention to male-on-male when we’re talking about changing the fucking rape culture does jack all. You wanna know what gets rid of m-m and f-m rape?

    Changing the fucking rape culture!

  442. 442
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    was a class lecture from an unpleasant campus crime representative, who basically started her lecture by accusing every male in the room of being a rapist.

    I don’t believe you.

  443. 443
    Custador

    @ Sally: I find it hilarious that you wrote that AFTER I posted figures (from RAINN, no less) that proved my point.

  444. 444
    SallyStrange

    Don’t know where the 400K prison rape stats came from. Here they estimate 70K in state and federal prison for 2007.

    And the meta-analysis I cited put the figure at 46,000. Since Custador never actually provided a link to his alleged HRW source, I think that it’s pretty fair to conclude that he’s lying (whether to himself or everybody else) when he says, “And I’ve since given the figures to back it up.”

  445. 445
    SallyStrange

    I find it hilarious that you wrote that AFTER I posted figures (from RAINN, no less) that proved my point.

    Since you’ve yet to articulate a point, I can’t yet assess whether RAINN’s figures prove or disprove it.

  446. 446
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Custador
    You’ve given several, contradictory numbers and you have distorted data by using the numbers given for all sexual assault and attempted sexual assault and try to pass them off as rape statistics, you use the reported rape numbers as total rape numbers, which all implies that you’re a dishonest fuckwit who hurts female rape survivors by diminishing their suffering, and who hurts male rape survivors whom you’re using as a means to advance your ideas.
    In short, you’re an asshole

  447. 447
    Custador

    @ MB: And that low estimate still outnumbers male on female rapes. Watch now as a billion angry misandrists rip into me for saying that.

  448. 448
    SallyStrange

    Watch now as a billion angry misandrists rip into me for saying that.

    Which is, of course, what you’ve been waiting for all along.

  449. 449
    myeck waters

    ME:

    Because if you’re NOT saying that, then what’s the point of the endless quibbling about numbers?

    Custador:

    No. I explicitly did NOT say that. I explicitly said the EXACT OPPOSITE.

    Waiting…

  450. 450
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Watch now as a billion angry misandrists rip into me for saying that.

    Your true colors emerge. They’ll always tell on you.

  451. 451
    The Ys

    @ Custador:

    The Ys: If you’re going to use RAINN’s figures, you might like to use ALL of RAINN’s figures:

    I wasn’t using RAINN’s figures. Idiot.

  452. 452
    Custador

    @ Giliell: Fuck you. Fuck you so very much. Fuck your butthurt attitude at the idea that there might be more male victims than female. Fuck your twisted need to claim the title of “victim” solely for your gender. Fuck you for accusing me of “using” rape victims. I cannot actually articulate how angry I am right now. Fuck you for failing to grasp that this is an issue that effects me deeply and personally – And if you did graps it, FUCK YOU for using it to make me angry.

    tl;dr – Fuck you.

  453. 453
    Dhorvath, OM

    Custador,

    Carlie, have you read the blog post Ing linked to? The tl;dr version is: “Rapists are 100% normal men. Normal men are rapists. Rape is in the normal behaviour range for human men.”

    Speaking as a normal man who isn’t a rapist, and who in fact is certain that he’s incapable of ever dehumanising anybody in that way, I take exception to that. It’s misandry, plain and simple.

    You have completely missed the point of Ing’s post if you think it was to say that all men are rapists. Normal behaviour by normal people that normally ends up with consensual sex, can also easily result in sex where consent was not present. We want to divorce this normal behaviour from normal people so that it doesn’t act as a cover for those who want to rape and also so that people who poorly evaluate what passes for implicit consent in our current fucking toolkit don’t muck shit up and hurt people that they had no desire to hurt. Do you want to provide cover for rapists? Do you want to through miscommunication put anyone in the place of feeling violated by your actions? I strongly suspect that your answer is no to both of those, so shut up about what you don’t quite understand and listen a bit.

  454. 454
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Custador – what is going on? Why are you so obsessed with how many rape victims are men or women? Why isn’t it clear to you that everyone here who’s not an asshole care about rape victims qua rape victims, and that no one thinks it’s less horrible when it happens to a man?

    Why do you think people telepathically know how or why this issue is so personally important to you (hint: you didn’t tell us, do you understand that?)?

    Why, in your anger, do you default to such a common sexist and dismissive trope: “angry misandrists”?

    Seriously-what’s going on with you?

  455. 455
    The Ys

    @ Conquistador

    Fuck your butthurt attitude at the idea that there might be more male victims than female.

    And to Tartarus with your misogyny in refusing to accept facts and statistics that prove you wrong.

    Fuckwit.

  456. 456
    Custador

    @ Josh: Your first sentence made exactly the point I’ve been hammering at all evening – Rape is rape. Now if you’ll please read back over the replies people have been leaving me ripping into me for daring to intrude on a female rape victim’s thread with my talk of male rape, perhaps you’ll understand why I’m angry. And for what it’s worth, I thought I had made my own status plain in a couple of earlier posts. I didn’t think it needed to be spelled out explicitly.

    And the angry misandrists thing? Sometimes it’s not a trope. Read through this thread objectively and tell me that every poster claiming feminism really is a feminist.

  457. 457
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    @ MB: And that low estimate still outnumbers male on female rapes. Watch now as a billion angry misandrists rip into me for saying that.

    It does?

  458. 458
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Custador:

    You came in here with bullshit unsubstantiated numbers, echoing an extremely common MRA trope (what about the menz) and you expect us to treat you any different from the hordes of MRAs who beat down every topic about misogyny?

    Fuck that noise.

  459. 459
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    @Ys:
    This is why I shouldn’t do back-page-of-notebook math and then post it using my phone in the middle of seminar. I mess the math up. My bad!
    My point (that Custator was wildly underestimating the incidence of rape) stands, however.
    @Salem:
    The 25% figure comes from the estimates I’ve seen that say that between 1/4 and 1/6 of women are raped in their lifetime. 1/4 = 25%.
    @Custador:

    Esteleth rather patronisingly addressing me as “cupcake”. Tell me, Esteleth, how would you respond to being addressed as “cupcake” by me?

    I direct your attention to this t’s a discussion on how the word “cupcake” is used here: i.e. as a general-usage insult. It was chosen specifically for being non-gendered.
    Booyah!

    Oh, and what others have said: no one here has dismissed the problem of male-on-male prison rape. It is, in fact, a horrible problem that desperately needs addressing. However, your attempts to cast it as a bigger problem – in raw numbers or in social effect – than other forms of rape is (1) wrongheaded and (2) offensive.

  460. 460
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    If I overlooked your explanation, I apologize.

    But I don’t see anyone ripping into you for “daring” to tread into a “female” rape thread. I see people ripping into you for being inconsistent (even if it was unintentional, one’s ethically obliged to acknowledge the error) and appearing to be playing the Oppression Olympics by claiming more men are raped than women. Whether that is true or not, why is it so important to you? Can you understand why that looks like you trying to minimize female rape? What possible motivation could you have for that? Why does it matter? People here think every rape is horrific, whether it’s a man, woman, transgender person, or child. Whether it happens to one woman or 60,000 men. Why don’t you get that?

    I don’t know any misandrists here at Pharyngula. And I don’t know of anyone whom you’re qualified to pronounce is not a feminist. Cut the shit because it’s out of line.

    I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but it’s awfully hard.

  461. 461
    Custador

    Finally found it: The National Centre for Victims of Crime, citing Human Rights Watch, put the number of prison rape victims at 420,000 per year.

    http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32361

  462. 462
    Custador

    And what’s an MRA?

  463. 463
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    How the fuck do you square your claim that more men are raped than women when your own link says this:

    “Males are the least likely to report a sexual assault, though it is estimated that they make up 10% of all victims (RAINN, 2006).”

    Honest question. Go. Help me understand.

  464. 464
    A. R

    pelamun: Yeah, I was an Anglican before I deconverted, so I often am not aware of the issues there.

    I’m going to address this comment to Custador, but I believe most of it could apply to the other trolls here: Please stop attempting to attenuate the virulence of rape culture by insisting that it affects everyone/is worse for males than females/doesn’t count if you’re drunk/what about the menz. It is insulting to many here who are, or who have loved ones (as in my case) who are survivors of attempted or completed rape. Using nonsense statistics to back up your claims is insulting to those of us here who value real data and scientific research. Pharyngula may be on FtB now, but it is still a science blog, and falsified or manipulated data is not appreciated. Please accept this decaying echidna and insert it into your orifice of choice, and leave those of us who live in the real world of genuine statistics and data alone.

  465. 465
    Custador

    Because they treat prison rape as a separate issue to other rape. If not, I admit that there must be something off with their numbers.

  466. 466
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Custador:

    It means Men’s Rights Advocate, but that actually sounds like a legitimate term, so I tend to use it to mean Misogynistic Raging Asshole.

  467. 467
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    clarewilkinson

    “This advice presupposes that men who persist in making unwanted sexual advances are genuinely confused, and will be happy to have their confusion dispelled by a simple, firm “No”. It does not allow for the possibility that men who behave in this way are not so much confused about women’s wishes as indifferent to them.”

    That goes frankly against the research on the matter.
    Yes means yes has a good overview on this, and the conclusion is: It’s not that they don’t understand, they just don’t like the answer.
    That’s also a dangerous path go go down.

    1)It puts the onus on the women
    2) It excuses rapists
    3) It fails to understand the fact that a plain “no” isn’t easy.
    I once got calls from a rather persistent and obnoxious guy who thought that this was the number of a girl he wanted to fuck. Obviously she was too afraid to tell him to duck off and invented a number. Unfortunately she invented mine.

  468. 468
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @Custador:

    About 3% of American men – a total of 2.78 million men – have experienced a rape at some point in their lifetime (Tjaden & Thoennes, 2006).

    In 2003, one in every ten rape victims was male. While there are no reliable annual surveys of sexual assaults on children, the Justice Department has estimated that one of six victims are under age 12 (National Crime Victimization Study, 2003).

    3% of men, 10% of rape victims.

    25% of women, 90% of rape victims.

    BULLSHIT that more men are raped than women every year.

  469. 469
    Ace of Sevens

    Custador, that link says in 2003, one in ten rape victims was male. That hardly supports the idea that men are victims more than women. TO put an obvious point on it, the vast majority of men raping men in prison were raping women before they got there. DO you think they just become more productive behind bars?

  470. 470
    Custador

    @ A.R: At no point have I said that rape is worse for men than women. At no point have I said that it doesn’t count if you’re drunk.

    I have said that it effects everybody, though – And your issue with that statement is what, exactly?

    I’ll repost those links again – The National Centre for Victims of Crime, citing Human Rights Watch, put the number of prison rape victims at 420,000 per year.

    http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32361

    According to RAINN, in 2004-2005, 64,080 women were raped.

    http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

    How, exactly, are those nonsense statistics? I certainly have no reason to regard either of those sources as unreliable.

  471. 471
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Because they treat prison rape as a separate issue to other rape

    That does not make sense, even plain logical sense. It doesn’t address the issue of how to reconcile the claim that more men are raped than women with the competing claim (in your source) that 10 percent of rape victims are men. Your answer is orthogonal- it’s like saying “butter” if I ask how hot it is outside.

    What are you trying to say?

  472. 472
    Fear Uncertainty Doubt


    Men are dangerous creatures. To women, to other men, to children. Men are more violent, physically stronger, and (I think) view sex differently than women.


    This is an assertion, not a fact.

    Actually, it’s a fact. You are going one step further by saying that I assert that it is nature. That I never said. Let’s keep it empirical. For all of known history men have been this way. You are proposing a societal experiment to test the theory because such a society has never existed to anyone’s knowledge. Whether it’s nature or not isn’t as important as this is the state of things and likely to be so for the foreseeable future. There is no counterexample that I know of.

    I would be happy to take part in such an experiment. It sounds like a better society than the one we have. But it’s not the one we do have now, and if we are going to address the issues then we have to do it with what we know and what we expect to be. If maleness were to undergo a significant shift, if we became something like the society you propose, well, then what I am saying will be simply no longer useful or relevant. Were it to happen in my lifetime I would be happy to abandon it.

  473. 473
    A. R

    Custador: As I said, my comment was quite general, and some may not apply. But you did manipulate statistics as outlined above. I’m going to look at your sources now, and come back in a few minutes.

  474. 474
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @my 468:

    Whups, my numbers for women are off – I forgot about the intersex and trans- communities.

  475. 475
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Now I know you’re being a deliberate liar. You know that it cannot simultaneously be the case that 420,000 men are raped a year as compared to 64,000 women, and that 90 percent of rape victims are women. You know this. You know that that must mean the two datasets—taken from two different organizations—must be using different methods and measuring different things.

    Why are you pretending you don’t get this? You dishonest shit. Fuck you; I regret even trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

  476. 476
    Janine Is Still An Asshole, OM,

    @ MB: And that low estimate still outnumbers male on female rapes. Watch now as a billion angry misandrists rip into me for saying that.

    It is confirmed, you came here just for a fight.

    *yawn*

  477. 477
    Custador

    Again, see the above link to the National Centre for Victims of Crime. The only way their numbers work is if they’re treating rape in prison as a separate issue from rape outside of prison.

  478. 478
    The Ys

    Esteleth:

    This is why I shouldn’t do back-page-of-notebook math and then post it using my phone in the middle of seminar. I mess the math up. My bad!

    I figured it was accidental, but wanted to get the most accurate census data possible to work out the solution set. No worries. :)

    My point (that Custator was wildly underestimating the incidence of rape) stands, however.

    Aye.

    The 25% figure comes from the estimates I’ve seen that say that between 1/4 and 1/6 of women are raped in their lifetime. 1/4 = 25%.

    That’s the figure I ran with as well. We can recalculate for 1/6, but it’s still going to be a horrific number.

  479. 479
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Males are the least likely to report a sexual assault, though it is estimated that they make up 10% of all victims (RAINN, 2006).
    22% of male inmates have been raped at least once during their incarceration; roughly 420,000 prisoners each year (Human Rights Watch, 2001).

    That is a misprint or them completely fucking up the numbers. The 22%, assuming it is correct and accurate for this discussion(just males, per year, etc..) is more than likely a have been sexually abused at any given point in their incarceration and not per year.

    from HRW.org

    According to the report, released today by the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS), “Sexual Victimization in State and Federal Prisons Reported by Inmates, 2007,” 4.5 percent of the state and federal prisoners surveyed reported sexual victimization in the past 12 months. Given a national prison population of 1,570,861, the BJS findings suggest that in one year alone more than 70,000 prisoners were sexually abused.

    That’s 2007 numbers, and it’s for all incarcerated, not just males. The 440,000 number they are using is even based on a 2001 study, which I’m sure they are completely botching.

  480. 480
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Sorry, linky to the above HRW.org article.

  481. 481
    Custador

    @ Janine: Yes, you’re quite right. I should just accept all of the insults slung at me and not sling any back. Clearly I’m just spoiling for a fight, otherwise why wouldn’t I just sit and accept the bullying clique on this thread calling me anything they like without answering back? How silly of me.

  482. 482
    A. R

    Custador, according to NCVC, 2.79 million American males have been raped, shocking, and likely attributable to rape culture, but according to RAINN, 1 in 6 American women will be raped (likely an underestimate due to under-reporting, but I like to stick with published data in these cases), which translates into roughly 51 million female rape victims. 2.79 vs 51? How does that support your position? (By the way, the number of prison rapes has been hugely under-reported, but that really won’t make a dent in the statistics above.)

    Sources:

    About 3% of American men – a total of 2.78 million men – have experienced a rape at some point in their lifetime (Tjaden & Thoennes, 2006).

    1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape). (National Institute of Justice & Centers for Disease Control & Prevention. Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women Survey. 1998.)

  483. 483
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Custador

    Giliell: Fuck you. Fuck you so very much. Fuck your butthurt attitude at the idea that there might be more male victims than female. Fuck your twisted need to claim the title of “victim” solely for your gender. Fuck you for accusing me of “using” rape victims.

    It’s annoying enough that you can’t agree with yourself on your numbers*, but can you pleas agree on what lies you want to tell about me?
    Do I:
    A) Claim that only women can be rape victims (and if, can please put forth any evidence, like me claiming something like “Men can’t be raped” or such nonsense.
    B) Claim that you use male rape victims as a means? (Which I have done, and I stand by that. Anybody who is actually interested in male rape victims would stop and read the data and not spread a dozen different numbers and claim bullshit )

    *Your own link manages to contradict itself heavily:

    -About 3% of American men – a total of 2.78 million men – have experienced a rape at some point in their lifetime (Tjaden & Thoennes, 2006).

    -In 2003, one in every ten** rape victims was male. While there are no reliable annual surveys of sexual assaults on children, the Justice Department has estimated that one of six victims are under age 12 (National Crime Victimization Study, 2003).

    -71% of male victims were first raped before their 18th birthday; 16.6% were 18-24 years old, and 12.3% were 25 or older (keep that in mind for the prison rape) (Tjaden & Thoennes, 2006).

    -Males are the least likely to report a sexual assault, though it is estimated that they make up 10% of all victims (RAINN, 2006).
    -22% of male inmates have been raped at least once during their incarceration; roughly 420,000 prisoners each year (Human Rights Watch, 2001).

    How come that the last number, the one you’re insisting on so much, is totally off with all the other numbers?
    If we assume that the vast majority of inmates is in the >25 years group, how come that those 12% alone account for 420,000 victims a year?

    Oh, and how come that you completely dismiss the 3 numbers that contradict your claim and only go for the one that agrees with your claim if you’re interested in the actual reality of male rape?
    **which would mean that if the above number is correct, it’s 30% of women

  484. 484
    Custador

    @ RevBigDumbChimp: I’d love to know where HRW got their estimate of prison population from. I can only assume they’re differentiating jails from prisons, because the incarcerated population of the US in 2008 was 2.4 million. Again, that’s going to have a massive impact on the numbers.

    (Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Prison_population)

  485. 485
    Custador

    @ Giliel:

    1) I have already suggested the explanation that either the National Centre for Victims of Crime treat rape in prison differently than rape out of prison, and;

    2) I have already conceded that if that is not the case, their numbers don’t make sense and so must be wrong.

  486. 486
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    When are you going to acknowledge you have fucking idea what the numbers are and what they really represent? Because no one here is going to let you slide.

  487. 487
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    @ RevBigDumbChimp: I’d love to know where HRW got their estimate of prison population from. I can only assume they’re differentiating jails from prisons, because the incarcerated population of the US in 2008 was 2.4 million. Again, that’s going to have a massive impact on the numbers.

    Ok what is 4.5% of 2.4 million?

    Is it 440,000?

    And remember that’s all incarcerated, not just males.

    Oh and also remember HRW is where your link is supposedly getting their numbers from.

  488. 488
    Custador

    Lol! Josh, I think you’re somewhat overestimating the magnitude of the fuck I don’t give about the opinions of an anonymous online community. Nice to see you pay brief lip service to the idea of actually reading what I typed before you decided that mob mentality looked fun, by the way. Please do pile on with everybody else, and feel free to pretend that I haven’t typed what I have, in fcat, already typed. It’s not you being too lazy to read, it’s me, I’m a misogynist. *winkwinknudgenudge*

  489. 489
    Finisterre

    “Fuck you for failing to grasp that this is an issue that effects me deeply and personally”

    Not just you, Custador. Not *just* you.

  490. 490
    A. R

    With regards to prison rape, according to a FBP report a read a few years back (will post once found), 10% of prison rapes are committed by guards, and I assume that many of those are male/female rapes. So prison rape statistics cannot be used to support your position Custador, unless you can differentiate between male and female victims.

  491. 491
    Custador

    @ Rev, it’s 108,000. Women make up 4.7% of the US prison population (same wikipedia link as before). That would make 5076 of those victims women, and 102,924 of them men.

  492. 492
    A. R

    Custador: I’ve read all of your posts, agree with Josh, and I again invite you to insert a decaying echidna into your orifice of choice, sideways. Or leave. Your choice.

  493. 493
    A. R

    Custador: Don’t assume equal distribution of rape.

  494. 494
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    And also remember that the study your link quotes cites 2001 numbers. Prison population has been increasing since then.

    And though I don’t have the numbers, I’m willing to bet prison rape hasn’t gone from 22% to 4.5% in that time.

    But I’m sure those numbers are out there.

    Oh and they get their numbers from the Bureau of Justice Statistics (Part of the Department of Justice). Something you could have easily figured out if you read the article I linked to or even easier, the quoted part above.

    And another thing, this is all unwanted sexual contact, just just a strict definition of “rape”. Which further reduces the numbers if that is what we are limiting ourselves to.

  495. 495
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Then, Custador, I assume you won’t care that you’re repeatedly going to be offered dead porcupines and called a big shithead until you finally get so tired of it you leave or PZ bans you. No, not because of mob mentality. Because you’re a liar. A brazen liar. Because people tried to engage with you in good faith and you just kept on lying and shifting the goalposts. It’s not us, my dear, it’s *you*. Your behavior brought this on. There’s no context, no forum, in which the way you’re acting is considered above board. Not online, and not in real life.

  496. 496
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    @ Rev, it’s 108,000. Women make up 4.7% of the US prison population (same wikipedia link as before). That would make 5076 of those victims women, and 102,924 of them men.

    sigh,

    Yes I did the math.

    Still not 440,000.

    And that study is for all non consensual sexual conduct, not just strict rape. So you can reduce your numbers even more.

  497. 497
    Custador

    You seriously call what I’ve been on the receiving end of here “people trying to engage with me in good faith”? Wow. Just wow. Personally I call it a mob.

  498. 498
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    So, Custador, if the 440.000 number is wrong for one reason or other, and all the other numbers are right (3% of men vs. 16-25% of women, 10% male victims vs. 90% of female victims), do you still stand by your claim that male-on-male rape is much more common than male-on-female rape?
    You know, that’s your litmus test with reality.
    And the thing you don’t understand is that you’re the boy who cried wolf. By insisting on something that’s demonstrably wrong while ignoring the facts, you diminish the actual victims and make it harder for them to get heard.
    Because some idiot will come along and say “see, they spread artificially inflated numbers so everything must be untrue”.
    I, for my part, don’t want the “She’s probably lying about having been raped” to spread to “He’s probably lying about having been raped”.
    I want male victims of rape to get heard and to get justice, just as female victims. It’s bad enough that lots of people see prison rape as something that’s OK, because “they obviously deserve it”.

  499. 499
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Shut the fuck up.

  500. 500
    O-P-E

    This might help clear things up. I couldn’t find anything at HRW in the 2001 report that look like the 22% number, but this was in the 2002 report
    “Although no conclusive national data existed regarding the prevalence of prisoner-on-prisoner rape, the most recent statistical survey showed that 21 percent of inmates in seven prisons had experienced at least one episode of pressured or forced sex since entering prison.”
    http://www.hrw.org/legacy/wr2k2/us.html#PrisonConditions
    Note it says at “least one episode during encarceration”. Using this number to extrapolate a yearly figure is pretty spurious.

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