Sara Netanyahu, wife of Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, has made a plea deal with prosecutors that resulted in her being convicted of misusing public funds, though she will only end up paying a fine and will not go to jail
A Jerusalem court on Sunday accepted a plea bargain in which Netanyahu agreed to admit to a lesser charge than the original fraud accusations. She will pay about $15,000 (£12,000) in fines and reimbursements to the state.
The sentencing ended one of the long-running cases against the family. However, Benjamin Netanyahu still faces the prospect of three corruption indictments later this year that may end his decade as leader and even result in a prison sentence. He denies all charges.
According to the original indictment against Sara Netanyahu, of fraud and breach of trust, she and a government employee were accused of spending roughly $100,000 (£79,000) on catering from expensive restaurants between 2010 and 2013, despite having a in-house cook provided by the state.
…
The 60-year-old child psychologist has been a controversial presence at her husband’s side throughout his political career. In addition to the fraud case, she has faced mistreatment accusations from employees and was described in a newspaper as “Israel’s Marie Antoinette”.
In 2017, Netanyahu was ordered to pay tens of thousands of pounds in damages in a dispute with two former domesticstaff who accused her of bullying. She faces a third lawsuit from an employee who alleged staff were treated like “slaves”.
…Benjamin Netanyahu is entangled in a series of more severe corruption investigations and is due to appear at a pre-trial hearing in October after Israel’s attorney general announced his intention to indict in all three cases.
He could face up to 10 years in prison if convicted of bribery and a maximum three-year term for fraud and breach of trust.
The Trump and Netanyahu families share a lot in common. Both are grifters to the core, who seem to think that being elected to the most powerful office in the country entitles them and their family members to use state funds for personal use to augment the already lavish perks that the office provides them. Both Trump and Netanyahu also say that media reports of the charges against them are ‘witch hunts’ by the press, as part of a campaign against them.
They both also promote racist policies and use racist tropes. In the case of Israel, it is seen in the creation of an apartheid state that abuses the Palestinian people by denying them basic human rights on a daily basis and using excessive force against them. In the US, it is seen in the way that Trump treats immigrants of color by putting them, even children, in cages for long times and prosecuting humanitarians who try to provide people with food and water, and in the way that he signals his support of white supremacists and neo-Nazis.
Two peas in a pod really.
He’s an international war criminal. Goong after him for corruption is like going after Al Capone for tax evasion.
Fred Trump, hair furor’s father, regularly had Netanyahu visiting him. A perhaps better known nazi visitor was Roy Cohen (Joseph McCarthy’s legal consul during the witchhunt). Hair furor has been acquinated with both fiends (and other “usual suspects”) for a long, long, time.
As an Israeli, I do agree with the criticism about taking money from the state, but from there, how did you get to an apartheid state? What!? I live here, unlike you. I have Arab friends, and there are good Arabs who love our country. Excessive force?
On the contrary, we are way too lenience with Palestinians that try to stab us, shoot us, burn our lands, and fire missiles at civilians. We owe no apology to no one. We are the only real democracy in the middle east. In Gaza, there is no ‘Gay parade’ for example; gay people are thrown from the rooftops. You know nothing about Palestinians. When their terror leadership is striking us and succeed in taking a life, they are celebrating and giving candies on the streets. That arrogant and misleading picture you tried to create here is shameful. And as an atheist, I am astonished that you didn’t do any real research, and generalize acts of one person to the nature of an entire state. I didn’t expect to read such an article. It’s beneath you.
I loathe Netanyahu to the core. But there are differences between the two. Netanyahu distinguished himself academically and in the military. However one might criticize the cause he fought for, he did put his life on the line for his country and his men*. That would be totally alien to Trump.
*Whether you consider this a virtue or not is irrelevant to my point. It’s a difference between the two men.
Israel’s Marie Antoinette
Hey that it insults Marie Antoinette. She may have been a bit frivolous but not corrupt. BTW the infamous “Let them eat cake” quote was probably mis-attributed. If anyone said it, it was probably her mother-in-law or an earlier royal idiot.
She even wore potato flowers in her hair at at least one reception to promote potato cultivation.
Eylon #3: “I have Arab friends”
Really? You think this is a convincing argument for your position?
Eylon @3: Some of your compatriots agree with the “apartheid” label, which suggests that it is a debate within Israel rather than merely an ignorant accusation from “outsiders”. Link.
Israel today is the very definition of apartheid, Jews and non Jews are mostly separate and non Jews (specially Palestinians) have inferior rights by virtue of birth.
Pinkwashing (“no gay march in Gaza”) has stopped working. Palestinians is Gaza are in an open-air prison.
Pinkwashing (“no gay march in Gaza”) has stopped working. Palestinians in Gaza are in an open-air prison — of course; they are, do you expect otherwise when your leadership is launching missiles at civilians? Try to dig tunnels for kidnapping citizens/soldiers? I mean, what do you think we are? I couldn’t care less about them unless they change their leadership and actually think about PEACE. And not only there is no gay parade, didn’t you read the whole sentence? They are KILLING gays.
How could you say this is an ‘apartheid’ state when we have Arab Israeli citizens that have given full equal rights, we even have Arabs in the government and parliament. What are you talking about?! You don’t live here. Therefore you have no right to judge how the government acts. We left Gaza in 2005. We ripped apart *thousands* of families from their homes that didn’t live in “open-air prison.” Lived on those same lands, we gave it to the Palestinians, and what did we get in return? Bloodshed. We are doing nothing wrong to them. If they started acting like human beings, I would be the first to accept two states that would exist in harmony. What you don’t know though is that they don’t want two countries. They want us GONE. And that won’t happen. I don’t see native Americans wanting two states, even though that in our situation, we didn’t occupy anything, we had a kingdom here. The Palestinians have no claim for a country just like native Americans don’t. Despite that, I would be willing to give it to them if they started to act like humans and help each other. But that won’t ever happen probably. I strongly suggest that you visit Gaza and Israel yourself rather than judging it from afar. All of you. Until then, don’t express false accusations.
Eylon #3: “I have Arab friends”
Really? You think this is a convincing argument for your position? — Of course. That means that there are good Arabs and that we can live in peace. But it’s up to them on the “prison” to stop launching hundreds of missiles at civilians, dig tunnels and launch fire balloons.
Eylon @3: Some of your compatriots agree with the “apartheid” label, which suggests that it is a debate within Israel rather than merely an ignorant accusation from “outsiders.” Link. — Of course there are, but oppose to you, they have the right, in my opinion, to think that, because they live here, unlike you. Even though I suspect that they have intense hallucinations if they believe that.
Eylon,
Your assertion that only those who live in a country have the right to criticize it, and that even those who do are suffering from “intense hallucinations”, is pretty self-serving and one that few would accept as valid in this age of widened rapid dissemination of information.
Eylon @10: “there are good Arabs”.
You mean the ones who agree with you. What do your Arab friends think about the situation in Gaza? West Bank settlements?
If you have your boot on people’s necks, you expect them to lie quietly in the hope you will toss them some crumbs? If there are people who have no hope for productive lives, what do you expect them to do?
Ah, so you never express negative opinions about other countries’ domestic policies?
You mean the ones who agree with you. What do your Arab friends think about the situation in Gaza? West Bank settlements? — NO. I mean the ones who aren’t trying to KILL us. And they think like me, that Gaza is a terror stare right now.
How would they have productive lives when they use the money we give them (yes we provide them with money) to build terror tunnels and missile launchers? Are you that ignorant?
Ah, so you never express negative opinions about other countries’ domestic policies? — NO. Because I don’t live there and don’t have first-hand experience, the media doesn’t always portray the actual reality as it should. It’s easy to judge from afar, but we have to live with them, not you. And I also find it amusing that you’re avoiding my critical points like the missiles, terror tunnels, killing gays, launching fire balloons that burn our lands, stabbing attacks. You don’t actually care about that, don’t you? You also ignored the fact that they don’t want peace; they want all of Israel to themselves. As I’m sure, you’ll ignore my points about us giving them money and supplies that they in turn use for terror purposes.
Your assertion that only those who live in a country have the right to criticize it, and that even those who do are suffering from “intense hallucinations,” is pretty self-serving and one that few would accept as valid in this age of widened rapid dissemination of information. — No, it’s not. Until you come here and see how we live, and how Arabs that do accept co-existence with us are living their lives to the possible fullest, you don’t have the right to judge a country from afar. Go to the cities near the border with Gaza and enjoy the missiles flowing above your head. Or maybe you’ll be delighted to see miles of burning fields every day from fire balloons. Just make sure you won’t get kidnapped through one of their tunnels.
Eylon:
Huh. There is an entire article about it in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy
Pretty obvious how, on reading it.
I know what I wrote won’t change your locked minded opinions. But when you continue criticizing Israel, remember that the computer you’re using to answer me is made with an Intel chip CPU — built by Israel. When you charge your phone, remember that the USB port we invented. When you’re driving and using Waze which is installed on millions on phones, it’s ours too. The first ever 3d printed heart that in 10-20 you’ll need instead of a transplant, our invention. Around 5-10% of the websites that exist are made by Wix, again, Israeli. Every time you’ll keep molesting us, we will bring new inventions and value to man kind. Remind me again, what did the “Palestinians” invent? What contribution did they ever gave to humanity?
Huh. There is an entire article about it in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy
Pretty obvious how, on reading it — As I said before, you are welcome to visit and see for yourself how much of apartheid we are. Until then, you are more than invited to stop reading Wikipedia articles as an authority source. I hope you can run fast though because we have only about half a minute to run to shelters when they fire hundreds of missiles. Have a nice trip:)
Eylon, I don’t doubt your patriotism, nor that you feel your country is under siege.
But, not a place I want to go to; I like safety and comfort. So, no visit for me.
Anyway, I reckon that so long as the USA supports you, you’ll be just fine.
Eylon,
I do not know if you are funded as part of the ‘hasbara’ propaganda arm of the Israeli government but whether you are or not, I am afraid that effort is not working. Israel’s apartheid policies are plain to see. I will stop referring to it as apartheid when Israeli stops practicing apartheid.
I am also not quite sure why you keep harping on Israel’s achievements when that is not at all relevant. Many other countries have had great achievements that have gone hand in hand with them behaving with great cruelty to others, the US included. Germany before World War II was a world leader in mathematics, science, and technology. According to your logic, outsiders should not have criticized the Nazi government of that time.
they have the right, in my opinion, to think that, because they live here, unlike you
Only resident Germans could legitimately criticize Hitler. Shall I go on?
Marcus, ouch. I’ll go on.
Hitler advocated Lebensraum, too.
Eylon, stop saying anything that comes to your mind. Intel chips are designed in Silicon Valley and Oregon and manufactured in Malaysia. USB was an end product of ever increasing speeds of serial bus which just deprecated parallel bus in computers. Most countries of the World have produced their scientific and technological heroes. Israel is not special. Sell your patriotism someplace else!
I have been thinking hard about this “patriotism is good” mantra that we have been taught. In a democracy, we SHOULD NEVER be blindly patriotic. We should be constantly second guessing our leaders and curtailing their powers (to do harm, that is) and trimming their excesses. There is absolutely no use for patriotism, secrecy, national anthem, flag and such symbolism in a democracy -- or rather these are more harmful than useful for a democracy.
As I suspected, you’ve ignored my key points and misinterpreted me.
Only resident Germans could legitimately criticize Hitler. Shall I go on? — my meaning was, as you could see if you actually read thoroughly, is that if you’re not living here and want to criticize a country, at least visit the country and see first-hand testimonials, do your research in the actual country you try to criticize, and then I’ll gladly listen to what you have to say.
Eylon, stop saying anything that comes to your mind. — I’ll say whatever I want to, I have the freedom of speech and as long as I don’t violate any laws and don’t hurt others, I’ll say my sayings. My point was not to compare us to other developed countries nor to adorn oursevles. The point is, we are helping man kind, what contribution the Palestinians gave? How they are helping humanity? You can read more about our inventions here: https://theculturetrip.com/middle-east/israel/articles/11-israeli-innovations-that-changed-the-world/
We are in the 13th in Nobel prize per capital. Where are the Nobel prizes of Palestinians?
My point actually was that instead of spreading terror, they could help humanity like we do.
do not know if you are funded as part of the ‘hasbara’ propaganda arm of the Israeli government but whether you are or not, I am afraid that effort is not working. — No, no one is paying me to defend my country, I don’t need money to know what’s right. The solution is simple: Hamas must disarm themselves immediately and let the Palestinians elect democratly a real leadership that truly wants peace. When that happens, believe me we will give them everything they need. Until that day comes, “apartheid” or not, I don’t care. I don’t want any contact with murderers and terrorists. And if most of them want peace, they should replace their leadership. At the moment their position is terror. What’s your “solution” to the problem?
And since you obviously ignored all of my points, I’ll say them again: murdering gays, digging terror tunnels to Israel, launching hundreds of rocket on us from Kindergartens, schools, hospitals and homes, flying fire balloons that burns miles of fields, stubbing citizens.
In 2015 when we had the stubbing terror wave, 47 civilians were killed by stubbings. Please remind me how many Israelis stubbed Palestinian civilians?!
Another thing I forgot to mention, the degrading example you gave about Nazis and Hitler (on purpose of course because you know that’s a painful subject) is stupid. When a country starts a war and want to invade everything in their path, that’s different. We do no such thing. You are heartless for bringing Nazis as an example to contradict my arguments. Shame on you.
I’ve just found a recent example for my claims.
Mahmoud Abbas fires mayor of Arab village after Jews attend wedding of mayor’s son.
The Jews where invited by some of the guests that worked with the Jews in car repair. The father of the bridegroom casted out both Jews and their Palestinian friends. The mayor of the village was fired by the higher leadership. They are racists and jeopardize those who truly wants peace. On the other hand, Arabs in Jewish weddings are really common.
Eylon:
Dunno, but I do know in that period there were hundreds of Palestinians dead, thousands injured, children killed. Not by civilians, but by your government.
Youths throwing rocks against professional snipers.
Face it, to appeal to the casualty count is to condemn your side.
No, no. You most certainly can’t appeal on that basis. And I do get it, you mob are Old Testament.
The malice may be equal (rather arguably, though you’d think Jews would know better) but the consequences (the very asymmetry) are indisputably in Israel’s favour. And they are the ones holding and expanding conquered territory, UN resolutions be damned.
Tsk. You can hardly pretend to be reasonable when you do stuff like that.
Um, you do indeed and indisputably do that.
There is a reason why when one hears “occupied territories” one thinks of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories
Reality trumps rhetoric, O apologist for the very cruelty to which the Jewish people were themselves subjected.
BTW, are you personally a religious person? Because you sure do sound religious, in the Old Testament way.
Dunno, but I do know in that period there were hundreds of Palestinians dead, thousands injured, children killed. Not by civilians, but by your government. —- If you’ve thoroughly read what I wrote, you would know why -- launching hundreds of rocket on us from Kindergartens, schools, hospitals, and homes. That is why there are civilian casualties. And each time BEFORE we destroy the Terror house/kindergarten/school, etc. We tell them to leave. Which country do that beside us? Hamas using their citizens as human shields, so that when they die, we would have that debate.
Youths are throwing rocks against professional snipers. —- hahaha yeah, let’s see someone throwing stones at the military US. They would shoot them on sight. We use non-lethal methods, and if there is no choice, we aim for the legs. There are many crippled Palestinians in Gaza because of that, unfortunately. But that’s because they try to break the border and harm civilians.
Face it, to appeal to the casualty count is to condemn your side. —- the casualties count doesn’t tell you who is the wrong side or not. We are defending ourselves. They started stubbing us. We are not stubbing them. We do not launch rockets at civilians. Once they DISARM, there will be peace. Do you think the military will do anything there when they stop the terror? They won’t.
Occupied territory? We had a kingdom here. It’s our country. What about the US? In your analogy, it’s occupied too. Where are all the native Americans that launch missiles and stab you?
I’m an atheist, and very ashamed to find you as one as well. Atheists should know better.
Sure. If they just submit, they’ll just fester in their enclave (which once was their homeland), instead of being killed and maimed and unemployed and fearful and dependent on your good will.
Thing is, in reality the ratio of deaths and maimings and suffering is disproportionately against your foes. So, no matter how high and mighty your moral stance, the reality on the ground says something else. And we, the rest of the world, are not blind to it, whatever our politicians may say.
Yeah, yeah. But the actual casualty counts are very easy to see.
We, the world, can see what choices you make.
You imagine Israelites were the first inhabitants? Heh.
For your delectation: This Land is Mine.
Care to attempt to justify that claim?
(Barracking for the underdog is a thing, you know. Are you the underdog?)
Sure. If they just submit, they’ll only fester in their enclave (which once was their homeland), instead of being killed and maimed and unemployed and fearful and dependent on your good will. —- hahaha, you’re so funny. You know NOTHING about Gaza. Before we evacuated thousands of families from their homes in order to give the Palestinians autonomy in Gaza, the peaceful Palestinians had jobs and lived a way better life than today. Israelis would visit Gaza and Palestinians from Gaza would come here for work. Was their Homeland? This was our Homeland before. If your analogy is that each time someone new comes and claim the land as their own, and that’s enough. Then we came and claimed the land as our own. You approved our claim to the land. A land that was ours way before them.
The thing is, in reality, the ratio of deaths and maimings and suffering is disproportionately against your foes. So, no matter how high and mighty your moral stance, the reality on the ground says something else. And we, the rest of the world, are not blind to it, whatever our politicians may say. — Okay, then let’s just don’t do anything and let them continue to harm civilians. It’s not our problem that they use their people as human shields. They die on purpose, even though we warn them in advance. The casualty count is irrelevant because they started it. We don’t start anything, we respond and defend. We do not attack. Your moral is twisted. What would you do if native Americans start shooting missiles at you from their rooftops and refuse to leave before you bomb their launchers? Please answer me that.
Do you imagine Israelites were the first inhabitants? Heh. — Do you image you were the firsts habitats? No. But from your point of view, you live in occupied territory as well. According to the accepted research, Israelis are in fact Canaanites. So yeah, we have deep roots to this land.
Care to attempt to justify that claim? — Yes. You haven’t done any thorough research, you don’t live here, you haven’t visited here, you don’t know the reality we live in. You are an outside observer. For your claims you be heard, come here, do a profound research, and come back to the comments with your conclusions.
The funny fact is that we didn’t occupy the land by military force. According to historians the whole conquering of the land by Joshua never happend. The Israeli kingdom rose within Canaan. What about your country? How can you live in an occupied territory?!
Netanyahu respects his great friend with a generous gesture:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-golan-heights-renames-town-trump-heights-in-honor-of-donald-trump-today-2019-06-16/
From the Syrian point of view, all the inhabitants are illegal immigrants.
Eylon:
I was around in 1967. This stuff is historical, you know.
Deprecate Wikipedia all you want, but there it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_West_Bank#Conquest
Really? My country? How is that relevant to your country’s occupation of West Bank, say?
It’s Australia, and we don’t have a corrupt PM, just a religious conservative (remember the post topic?).
Also, no shelters and no rockets, no, our drama is a bunch of people and children incarcerated at great expense in overseas countries, out of sight and out of mind except for such people who niggle at injustices. That and the status of Aboriginal people, though at least legally they are equal.
But seriously, you aren’t magically excused by saying “you do it too”.
(Yeah, we do it too, but we’re not as bad, nor as nasty, nor as desperate. Better that way)
No, the Canaanites are an ancient people (associated with Sodom and Gomorrah, Biblically), and Israelis belong to a nation created in, what, 1948 or so. The ancestors of most modern Israelis were hardly Middle-Eastern. Remember the kibbutzim?
Since you apparently missed it the first time, again: For your delectation: This Land is Mine.
PS (Can’t resist, my markup)
So, unless I have done thorough research, live there, visited there, Idon’t know the reality you live in. Got it.
Why then are you asserting to me the purported reality under which you live?
By your own contention, no matter how much you assert stuff, none of it is relevant to my forming an opinion unless I have done thorough research, live there, visited there, and/or know the reality you live in. Which I haven’t, haven’t, haven’t, and shan’t.
(In short, Eylon, you say one thing, but you do another; you vitiate your very claim by trying to shape my opinion. I notice these things, and it loses you credibility)
I was around in 1967. This stuff is historical, you know. — I didn’t meant on 1967, I meant in ancient times when the kingdom of Israel rose.
Since it seems you love Wikipedia so much, I won’t answer in my own words but rather quote Wikipedia.
Really? My country? How is that relevant to your country’s occupation of West Bank, say? —-
Another consequence of British colonisation was European seizure of land and water resources, with the decimation of kangaroo and other indigenous foodstuffs which continued throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries as rural lands were converted for sheep and cattle grazing.[citation needed] Settlers also participated in the rape and forcible prostitution of Aboriginal women.[66] Despite this a number of Europeans, including convicts, formed favourable impressions of Aboriginal life through living with Aboriginal Groups.[67].
Real humane, wow. You are humane!!
Source:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Australians
(Yeah, we do it too, but we’re not as bad, nor as nasty, nor as desperate. Better that way) — it’s worse. Read the Wikipedia source above. You raped women. We didn’t. In fact:
On 15 May 1947, the General Assembly of the newly formed United Nations resolved that the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine be created “to prepare for consideration at the next regular session of the Assembly a report on the question of Palestine.”[168] In the Report of the Committee dated 3 September 1947 to the General Assembly,[169] the majority of the Committee in Chapter VI proposed a plan to replace the British Mandate with “an independent Arab State, an independent Jewish State, and the City of Jerusalem […] the last to be under an International Trusteeship System.”[170] On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly adopted Resolution 181 (II) recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union.[38] The plan attached to the resolution was essentially that proposed by the majority of the Committee in the report of 3 September. The Jewish Agency, which was the recognized representative of the Jewish community, accepted the plan The Arab League and Arab Higher Committee of Palestine rejected it and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition.[39][171] On the following day, 1 December 1947, the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a three-day strike, and Arab gangs began attacking Jewish targets.[172] The Jews were initially on the defensive as civil war broke out, but in early April 1948 moved onto the offensive.[173][174] The Arab Palestinian economy collapsed, and 250,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled.[175]
On 14 May 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, declared “the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel.”[42][176] The only reference in the text of the Declaration to the borders of the new state is the use of the term Eretz-Israel (“Land of Israel”).[177] The following day, the armies of four Arab countries—Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, and Iraq—entered what had been British Mandatory Palestine, launching the 1948 Arab–Israeli War;[178][179] contingents from Yemen, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, and Sudan joined the war.
You can’t change history mate, while your ancestors raped and conquered a foreign land, we simply came back to a land that was ours. We ACCEPTED two states, the Arabs did not and started a war.
No, the Canaanites are an ancient people (associated with Sodom and Gomorrah, Biblically), and Israelis belong to a nation created in, what, 1948 or so. The ancestors of most modern Israelis were hardly Middle-Eastern. Remember the kibbutzim? —- Hahaha what the hell???? Don’t you know history?
The Kingdom of Israel was destroyed around 720 BCE, when it was conquered by the Neo-Assyrian Empire.[31]
In 586 BCE, King Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon conquered Judah. According to the Hebrew Bible, he destroyed Solomon’s Temple and exiled the Jews to Babylon.
What a bunch of bullshit. I don’t believe you’re an Atheist that doesn’t know proper history, even on your own ancestors. Be ashamed of yourself.
Oh and also from Wikipedia: Jews originated as an ethnic and religious group in the Middle East during the second millennium BCE,[9] in the part of the Levant known as the Land of Israel.[22] The Merneptah Stele appears to confirm the existence of a people of Israel somewhere in Canaan as far back as the 13th century BCE (Late Bronze Age).[23][24] The Israelites, as an outgrowth of the Canaanite population,[25] consolidated their hold with the emergence of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Some consider that these Canaanite sedentary Israelites melded with incoming nomadic groups known as ‘Hebrews’.
So please shut up and learn history. Thank you.
Eylon, the hasbara troll, I’d like to say I’ve been following your attempts to defend the indefensible, but to be honest I stopped after the tired old “I have many [persecuted minority] friends” and “if you don’t live here you can’t criticise” arguments, the ones that every propagandist opens with. I do read others’ replies to you though. Just FYI.
Why then are you asserting to me the purported reality under which you live?
By your own contention, no matter how much you assert stuff, none of it is relevant to my forming an opinion unless I have done thorough research, live there, visited there, and/or know the reality you live in. Which I haven’t, haven’t, haven’t, and shan’t. —- I’m not trying to shape your opinion, I’m trying to tell you to learn history, which you clearly don’t know, and if you want to form an opinion, do real research.
Eylon, the hasbara troll, I’d like to say I’ve been following your attempts to defend the indefensible, but to be honest I stopped after the tired old “I have many [persecuted minority] friends” and “if you don’t live here you can’t criticize” arguments, the ones that every propagandist opens with. I do read others’ replies to you, though. Just FYI — the real history is presented to you in black and white in my comment above. I know it’s long but read it.
You are the trolls, thinking you could falsifiably change historical facts to suit your views. I can’t believe I’m talking to Atheists. That makes no sense to me.
I’ll tell you again and again until it’ll go inside your thick skulls: We have been here way BEFORE the Arabs. We are Canaanites descendants. We didn’t take this land by force, we agreed to two states, the Arabs didn’t and started a war. They don’t want us here and don’t want two countries. How can we give them a state and recognize it, if they don’t recognize ours? You are bullshiting about occupation, while your counties did much worse, and we are not criticizing you for it. Except for me, because I’m only but showing you your hypocrisy.
Eylon:
True, but wrong land.
I was born in Madrid, Spain, and I grew up with the Reconquista as a national myth.
And again, whatever my ancestors did or did not do, that doesn’t excuse what Israel does now.
Right now.
Again, born in Madrid, Spain. Iberians, Celts from the north, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Romans, the Goths, the Islamic conquest, the Reconquista, the various wars when Spain was a colonial power, the invasion by the French… I know enough.
(You didn’t watch the video, did ya?)
Look, to me you are just like a Wiccan who imagines they somehow recreate olden witchcraft, or like a modern Druid who likewise imagines they recreate Druidic lore. (The Romans did a job on them, alas).
You are not like old Israel, anymore than those Wiccans or Druids are the real thing.
You are a modern Nation-state, not ancient Israel. A idealised recreation, not the real thing.
(Just as well, they were fucking primitive back then)
We were all fucking primitive back then. You were as well. Fine, you were born in Madrid, so how can you live in an occupied country where people raped and killed the natives?
And again, whatever my ancestors did or did not do, that doesn’t excuse what Israel does now. — I’m not using it as an excuse, quite the contrary. I’m showing you that you have to look in the mirror first. As I showed you, we didn’t occupy anything, the land has been given to us by law, and we accepted two states. The Arabs did not. So you’re receiving the fact that we did nothing wrong in the past? Great. Are you talking about the present? Fine. The present state is that Palestinians harm civilians and don’t want peace. What would you do differently than us, when you have neighbors that don’t want to share the land with you? Tell me.
You are not like old Israel, any more than those Wiccans or Druids are the real things. You are a modern Nation-state, not ancient Israel. An idealized recreation, not the real thing. — You are not like old Spain anymore, then those Wiccans or Druids are the real things. You are a modern Nation -state, not ancient Spain. An idealized recreation, not the real thing.
What’s the difference? How is that even a valid argument?
We are not who we were. Humanity has changed tremendously. So what?
I did watch the video. This happened all over the world, not just in Israel. That’s how the world worked back then. That’s what I’m trying to tell you. That’s what you don’t understand. I was cinically accusing your ancestors, because you accused mine, to show you that the ancestors of the land you currently live in (Australia) did way way way worse than us (Again we didn’t occupy anything, we were given the land by law) but accusing a specific country of a so called occupation, even though it wasn’t at all, is stupid. Even if it was, my point was that everyone was doing that back in the day, and that video is relevant to all of humanity, all of the countries. So you can’t accuse a specific country, accuse humanity. But as I said in my previous comment, humanity changed. So if you can’t accuse us of things happened in the past, and want to accuse us in things we are doing in the present, I’ll ask again: The present state is that Palestinians harm civilians and don’t want peace. What would you do differently than us, when you have neighbors that don’t want to share the land with you? And try to kill you? And you want peace? Tell me.
Eylon:
What? You are the one who claimed right to the occupied territories by right of your (very distant, ethnic and cultural) ancestors, not me.
You can either deny what Israel does, or you can try to justify it.
But you’re trying to do both, and that’s a fundamentally incoherent position. If you deny it, there is no need for justification; if you justify it, you perforce don’t deny it.
What? You are the one who claimed right to the occupied territories by right of your (very distant, ethnic and cultural) ancestors, not me. —- You are missing the point. All lands, ALL AROUND THE WORLD, were occupied at some point. That’s how things were. I don’t think anyone has a claim upon any land. What I was saying though, is that if you’re using the occupation argument, it’s false, because we were given this country by law. In the world, we live in today, enough bloodshed have been spilled, and even though I don’t think anyone should have a claim on any land, the damage has been done, and we as humans have countries. We have to learn how to live in peace, rather than arguing about who was there first. The sole reason I mentioned that we were here before is because you said this was the Palestinian’s homeland. My point of view is that the Arabs shouldn’t have to fight us in 1948 and accept two states solution as we did. Once they stop terror, I will gladly give them a place to live here, as long as it doesn’t hurt our security and right to live.
You can either deny what Israel does, or you can try to justify it. —- denying? I didn’t deny anything. All I’m saying is that we are doing what we are doing, but I don’t think that’s apartheid. I’ll ask again since you’re avoiding my question: The present state is that Palestinians harm civilians and don’t want peace. What would you do differently than us, when you have neighbors that don’t want to share the land with you? And try to kill you? And you want peace? Tell me. Don’t ignore the question.
The funny thing is, we are the only ones who genuinely care for them. We try to give them jobs, provide them with money, and in return the terrorize us. We are the ones trying to offer them two states solution; we’ve been trying to do that since 1948. They DON’T WANT that. They want our extinction. We have only two simple demands: stop terror, and recognize our state for us to recognize yours. Very simple. Once they do that, they will get a state. So instead of helping us help them, what you’re actually doing is justify terror and destroying every slim chance for a Palestinian state. The more terror they do, the more we are afraid of giving them a country, which would be vast security and existential threat to us.
EylonL
It ain’t funny, it’s outright false. Pretty sure they care for themselves, for example.
You know what? Knowing what I do, if I were a soul about to be embodied, I’d rather get an Israeli body than a Palestinian one. Bit like the easy setting on a videogame, you mob have more bling and an easier setting.
Conditional jobs, conditional money. Conditional on servitude. Sure.
Pull the other one. You can say what you say, but I can read headlines. And see events.
Tell me that when you stick to the territories to which you are lawfully entitled (and none of this bullshit “the ancient ancestors of our ideology” bullshit.
(You know you have to give a little to get a little, no? Essence of diplomacy)
Demands. Always demands.
Such bullshit!
Hey, I’m an outside observer. Not particularly impressed with either of you two mobs, but for sure I know who is the baddie here. I’m pretty damn sure I’d feel more terrorised as a Palestinian than as an Israeli, that’s just the way it is.
(But sure, blockading them, denying them resources, stealing their land is surely most helpful for them. So fucking lucky for you that the USA is your bitch — for now)
Outside observer here; and as I’ve noted, I know who does the most and best terrorising, and who suffers most.
(Can you guess which is which?)
—
PS
Well, other than functionally, Israel is an apartheid state, in the true sense of that word, if not in its South African instatiation.
(Oh yeah, and you’re denying moral culpability, too)
PS “helping them” apparently means disproportionate force and intimidation and oppression: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/israel/palestine
(The more research I do, the worse it looks for Israel. Nice own goal, Eylon!)
This is exactly what I found when the Israel debates raged with that ninny, StevoR -- looking into every point he raised only worsened the case against Israel. For me, the biggest blow against Israel’s credibility came when the conversation strayed over to the Palestinian water supply, in particular that of Gaza. I wonder if Aggressive StevoR here can explain the wells which surround Gaza…?
You are heartless for bringing Nazis as an example to contradict my arguments. Shame on you.
When Israel stops doing the same things the nazis did, and you stop making the same excuses, I’ll stop raising the comparison. It’s pretty simple. In the meantime, where is your sense of shame?
Israel’s actions include collective punishment (another crime against humanity practiced by the nazis) -- you say the Palestinian leadership is launching missiles as though that justifies attack on civilians. That is disgusting.
Thanks for the suggestion I visit Israel, but I avoid theocracies. I’d feel like I was visiting the US south in the 60’s like I did when I was a kid. Apartheid states suck.
I finally stopped fighting the urge to school Eylon and wrote a scintillatingly damning reply, only for it to be lost into the ether when the page refreshed. Probably just as well, and anyway, there’s little point in me trying to put it in my own words when Human Rights Watch exists to do it better.
Holms@#50:
FWIW SteveoR appears to have apologized for some of his stated opinions.
we simply came back to a land that was ours.
It was Babylonian before it was yours. Does that mean the Iranians have a right to it?
My great grandparents left Norway and the survivors wound up in Minnesota, on land racially cleansed of Lakotah. Does that mean I have a right to reconquer my ancestral farm in Norway?
John Morales — You are a hypocrite, and I’m not going to respond again to your comment until you answer the question you’re trying so hard to avoid: The present state is that Palestinians harm civilians and don’t want peace. What would you do differently than us, when you have neighbors that don’t want to share the land with you? And try to kill you? And you want peace?
When Israel stops doing the same things the Nazis did, and you stop making the same excuses, I’ll stop raising the comparison. It’s pretty simple. In the meantime, where is your sense of shame? — Oh I’m sorry, I don’t remember the Jews who were forcefully placed in ghettos, launched missiles from it and dug terror tunnels. Furthermore, Hamas are the ones that are stopping Palestinians who want to immigrate from Gaza to other countries, not us. Gaza was GIVEN to them. We evacuated thousands of families from their homes!!!!! You moron. Thousands of families stripped from their homes, for people in Gaza to have autonomy. And since you love Wikipedia so much, here, face the bitter truth: On September 23, hours after rockets were shot into Israel, a Hamas pickup truck in the Jabaliya Refugee camp was struck by a missile, killing 10 militants and injuring 85 people. On September 26, Israel killed Palestinian Islamic Jihad commander Mohammad Khalil and his bodyguard with a missile strike; on September 29 Israel closed all Hamas charities on the West Bank, and as part of a five-day offensive fired artillery into the Gaza Strip.[76]
You idiot. 23 hours!!! After we stripped thousands of families for the “Palestinians,” they shot rockets at us. You are terrorists much like them. You support terror. Shame on you! The reason we limit their supplies is because they use them to build rocket launchers and terror tunnels!!!!!! My government is not perfect, and I have a lot to criticize them for, but it is my DUTY as a citizen to do so, not yours, so stop sticking your nose to matters you know nothing of.
It was Babylonian before it was yours. Does that mean the Iranians have a right to it?
My great grandparents left Norway, and the survivors wound up in Minnesota, on land racially cleansed of Lakotah. Does that mean I have a right to reconquer my ancestral farm in Norway? — No. You haven’t read what I said. And it was not Babylonian before it was ours. When do you get this falsified history from?
What I said is that what’s done has been done already. Every land in the world was conquered at some point by bloodshed. We as HUMANITY should NOT conquer any more lands. The land of Israel is not conquered but given to as by LAW, you imbecile. Here from Wikipedia, learn the damn proper history:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulet%E2%80%93Newcombe_Agreement#/media/File%3AGolanHistoricalBorders.svg
This was the ACTUAL land that was supposed to be ours by international law. So learn history. Not occupied, but GIVEN!!!!!!!!
In the Palestinian parliamentary elections held on 25 January 2006, Hamas won a plurality of 42.9% of the total vote and 74 out of 132 total seats (56%).[68][69] When Hamas assumed power the next month, Israel, the United States, the European Union, Russia and the United Nations demanded that Hamas accept all previous agreements, recognize Israel’s right to exist, and renounce violence; when Hamas refused,[70] they cut off direct aid to the Palestinian Authority, although some aid money was redirected to humanitarian organizations not affiliated with the government.[71] The resulting political disorder and economic stagnation led to many Palestinians emigrating from the Gaza Strip.[72]
September 12, 2005
Several hours after Israel withdraws the last of its troops from the Gaza Strip two Qassam rockets are fired by Palestinian militants from the Gaza Strip. The first lands near the Israeli town of Sderot, while the second lands near Kibbutz Yad Mordechai.[12][13]
imbeciles. Learn history….
Marcus you imbecile!!!! Babylonian?????? LEARN F**king HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!!! We are canenites descendants. We are the first recorded settlers here. So please, be a good atheist and actually learn something.
Prehistory
Edit
Main article: Prehistory of the Southern Levant
One of the earliest settlements in the region was at Jericho in Canaan. The earliest settlements were seasonal, but, by the Bronze Age, had developed into large urban centres.
Early Bronze Age (3500–2000)
Edit
By the Early Bronze Age other sites had developed, such as Ebla (where an East Semitic language, Eblaite, was spoken), which by c. 2300 BC was incorporated into the Mesopotamia-based Akkadian Empire of Sargon the Great and Naram-Sin of Akkad (biblical Accad). Sumerian references to the Mar.tu (“tent dwellers”, later Amurru, i.e. Amorite) country West of the Euphrates date from even earlier than Sargon, at least to the reign of the Sumerian king, Enshakushanna of Uruk, and one tablet credits the early Sumerian king Lugal-anne-mundu with holding sway in the region, although this tablet is considered less credible because it was produced centuries later.
The archives of Ebla show reference to a number of biblical sites, including Hazor, Jerusalem, and as a number of people have claimed, to Sodom and Gomorrah mentioned in Genesis as well. Ebla and Amorites at Hazor, Kadesh (Qadesh-on-the-Orontes), and elsewhere in Amurru (Syria) bordered Canaan in the north and northeast. (Ugarit may be included among these Amoritic entities.[45]) The collapse of the Akkadian Empire in 2154 BC saw the arrival of peoples using Khirbet Kerak Ware pottery,[46] coming originally from the Zagros Mountains (in modern Iran) east of the Tigris.
Modern archaeology has largely discarded the historicity of the religious narrative,[7] with it being reframed as constituting an inspiring national myth narrative. The Israelites and their culture, according to the modern archaeological account, did not overtake the region by force, but instead branched out of the indigenous Canaanite peoples that long inhabited the Southern Levant, Syria, ancient Israel, and the Transjordan region[8][9][10]
We NEVER occupied any land!!! Not in 1948 and not thousands of years before that. We setteled!!!!!! here, as you can read from your glorified Wikipedia you like so much.
Let’s do some conclusion to those who don’t want to read the whole thing.
Israelis are canenites descendants and were the first recorded settlers in this land. We were casted put from our lands and returned in 1948 by international LAW and agreed to two states. The “Palestinians” did not. By the way, please be aware that Palestine is a Greek name. Here: The name was used by ancient Greek writers, and it was later used for the Roman province Syria Palaestina, the Byzantine Palaestina Prima, and the Islamic provincial district of Jund Filastin.
Occupation: DEBUNKED
Next: Palestinians use terror and want to cast out all the Jews from the land of Israel. We wanted two states, but most of us not anymore due to terror and killing civilians for no apparent reason.
Gaza: We evacuated Gaza in 2005, torn apart thousands of our own people from their homes, and in return: Several hours after Israel withdraws the last of its troops from the Gaza Strip two Qassam rockets are fired by Palestinian militants from the Gaza Strip. The first lands near the Israeli town of Sderot, while the second lands near Kibbutz Yad Mordechai.[12][13]
So instead of criticizing a state you clearly has no knowledge of, try to offer an actual F*cking solution instead of whining like babies
Eylon:
You can declare that all you want, but the reality is otherwise. And the world knows it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_2334
Lots of other resolutions, of course, going back decades:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
Heh. Here’s a proposal: perhaps try abiding by international law, take heed of UN resolutions, stop violating the Geneva conventions, return stolen land.
(Just kidding, of course. Much easier to suck at the teat of the USA)
You can declare that all you want, but the reality is otherwise. And the world knows it. —-
d-e-b-u-n-k-e-d. I’ve just proved that to you with simple history you refuse to accept through your thick skull. I’ll repeat that again and again and again. Israelis are Canaanites descendants and were the first recorded settlers in this land. We were cast out from our lands and returned in 1948 by international LAW and agreed to two states. The “Palestinians” did not and STARTED A F*CKING WAR. You can’t deny history. That’s what happened like it or not. That’s your problem.
Heh. Here’s a proposal: perhaps try abiding by international law, take heed of UN resolutions, stop violating the Geneva conventions, return stolen land. —- “stolen land”??? You imbecile read the history. Read and learn. You are falsifying evidence. This is just disgusting. Please elaborate on how this land is ” stolen”?
We will abide by no laws of no “human rights” crap until they stop killing our civilians.
As I said and I’ll repeat it:
September 12, 2005
Several hours after Israel withdraws the last of its troops from the Gaza Strip two Qassam rockets are fired by Palestinian militants from the Gaza Strip. The first lands near the Israeli town of Sderot, while the second lands near Kibbutz Yad Mordechai.[12][13]
You hypocrite, why would we give them anything at all, when we already gave them Gaza and hours after they started shooting missiles at us?
You like terror, I genuinely hope you’ll see the day when terror will reach to you as well — crying baby. Stop whining.
And stop ignoring my questions, you coward. Face them.
Why would we give them anything at all when we already gave them Gaza and hours after they started shooting missiles at us? ANSWER.
You really ought to follow that link I gave Eylon. You might learn something. Here it is again.
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/israel/palestine
Another question. How can you claim the land as “stolen”? The land belongs to the first settlers, or you think that’s ok for someone to take land by force as you’re suggesting? Like they did to us and happened all-around the world. If it belongs to the early settlers, it’s us. You’re screwed. If it’s ok for someone else to claim it, then how the ‘Palestinians can claim it and we dobt? Stupid point of view. again, screwed. How can you claim that someone who tool the land from someone else is the “right” owner? If so, every one can tale lands from anyone. Your argument is so stupid. Wow.
I will read everything, but first, stop avoiding my questions and be a man and answer them.
Why would we give them anything at all when we already gave them Gaza and hours after they started shooting missiles at us? Answer.
How can you claim the land as “stolen”? The land belongs to the first settlers, or you think that’s ok for someone to take land by force as you’re suggesting? Like they did to us and happened all-around the world. If it belongs to the early settlers, it’s us. You’re screwed. If it’s ok for someone else to claim it, then how the ‘Palestinians’ can claim it and we don’t? Stupid point of view. again, screwed. How can you claim that someone who took the land from someone else is the “right” owner? If so, every one can take lands from anyone. Answer.
You don’t have the courage to answer me. Give an actual informed answer.
Eylon,
Hey, I’m not the one using military-grade weapons against slingers, nor the one who drops bombs on wedding parties. I think perhaps you mob like terror a tad more than I do.
Anyway. If I were a nicer person, I might hope that you’ll see the day when the terror won’t reach to you the way it does now. But you make your own hell, don’t you?
Rest reassured that you have made your case for a nation whose inhabitants are terrorised, and therefore feel justified at terrorising even more. I probably should feel sorry for you.
—
Also, what the OP said — let’s not forget the post was not about Israel, it was about Netanyahu.
You are avoiding my questions yet again. You don’t dare to try and answer the real harsh questions I presented. Oh, well, I hope someone else would elaborate on the subject and give me actual informed answers.
Eylon:
Avoidance? You just don’t pay attention, O terrorised one. International Court of Justice. UN.
I told ya already: I would go legal, instead of bully. Might work a tad better.
Let go of the land you seized in 1967. Stop the settlements outside your own legal borders.
Be nicer.
Hey, I’m not the one using military-grade weapons against slingers — fine, you want an eye for an eye? So what you’re saying is that we need to stab random Palestine civilians, including mothers and children like they do to us, we should launch missiles at random, no matter what is going to get destroyed (including Kindergartens, hospitals and so forth like they do to us. We should also dig tunnels into Gaza to kidnap civilians to negotiate. Let’s take a law into our own hands and not use military at all!!! Great idea!!!! Thank you!!! We’ll implement that immediately!!!
You do realize how stupid you sound?
the one who drops bombs on wedding parties. — sorry what?! I don’t know what you’re talking about. Please give me an informed source about this claim. From what I remember, Palestinians likes bombs and blowing themselves up.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
Real fun. Where are all the suicide bombing Jews? Where are all the knife killer Jews? Where are they!?
Let go of the land you seized in 1967. Stop the settlements outside your own legal borders. Believe me, if that would stop terror I would agree to that, even though it’s ours by law and right. But we gave them Gaza, and that only worsened the terror. Why would we give them any more land? Answer.
I’ll tell you what your problem is; you’re whining around telling us what to do, I am listening to your whinings and explain to you why we can’t. You, in turn, aren’t listening to the explanations and questions I’m bringing, to have a civilized debate. Instead, you are telling us: You: “blablabla do it.” Israel: “but we can’t because of x y z, do you have other options or ideas?” You: “blablablabla do it” Israel: “But you didn’t answer, it won’t work, help us to get another solution!” You: “blablabla do it” The consequences don’t matter to you. The only important thing is that we do as you say, no matter how we’ll be affected. Elsewhere we are monsters in your eyes. I’m trying to get your advice, can’t you answer the harsh questions that I’m bringing?
Eylon, gotta give you this, you are indefatigable.
Heh. Your attempted sarcasm would have worked better had you not conceded above the vast asymmetry in the respective tolls, whether those be deaths, maimings, or just general lack of opportunity.
Tell you what: when those are equal, you may have a case that you’re not over-doing it, and you can indulge in real sarcasm.
You don’t need those; those are for desperate people who lack a full-strength military state machine. You got your jets, your missiles, your elite special forces, your everything. Billions upon billions of dollars of military aid from the USA.
BTW, I note you used ‘Jews’ as a metonym for ‘Israelite’. Interesting.
(That would not have worked in 1915)
—
Hm, maybe not. Maybe it was a beach with little children being blown up or something — from this far away, all that terrorism and blowing-up shit gets muddled. Maybe it was Iraq or Iran or Lybia or Afghanistan or something.
But pretty sure I could spend… hm, maybe 2 minutes Googling for atrocities.
You really want me to do that?
PS
Heh. That ain’t a button you can push.
In the meantime, that was your solution: fine; you want an eye for an eye? So what you’re saying is that we need to stab random Palestine civilians, including mothers and children like they do to us, we should launch missiles at random, no matter what is going to get destroyed (including Kindergartens, hospitals and so forth like they do to us. We should also dig tunnels into Gaza to kidnap civilians to negotiate. Let’s take the law into our own hands and not use the military at all!!! Great idea!!!! Thank you!!! We’ll implement that immediately!!!
You would be a horrible diplomat. Please offer a different solution. You want us to throw rocks at them in return maybe?
We can’t give them any land because when we gave them Gaza, they started shooting. Once Hamas disarm its weapons, we would consider it. Until then, we won’t give them one inch of land. Do you have any other idea that would make games stop the terror and help Palestinians to get a state?
Make them stop**
Yes, yes. We’ve been through all this, remember? When you justify you do, you concede you do what you are justifying.
Get it straight: you asked (and I quote) ” What would you do differently than us, when you have neighbors that don’t want to share the land with you? And try to kill you? And you want peace? Tell me.” So I told you what I’d do, whenceupon you imagine I told you what to do.
Tsk. Nah, go on doing what you’re doing and have all your neighbours hate you and have your shelters. Not my problem. Just telling you what I would do, since you insisted.
Heh. Your attempted sarcasm would have worked better had you not conceded above the vast asymmetry in the respective tolls, whether those be deaths, maimings, or just general lack of opportunity. — ok, I told you, we will stop military forces and do as you suggested. It’s not sarcasm. That’s what they are doing. You indicated that instead of using the military, we should use the same tactics they do.
But pretty sure I could spend… hm, maybe 2 minutes Googling for atrocities.
You really want me to do that? —- be my guest. I don’t care.
Heh. That ain’t a button you can push. — I actually can. That was an idiotic suggestion.
So I told you what I’d do, whenceupon you imagine I told you what to do — but I told you why we could not do that. We can’t give them any land because when we gave them Gaza, they started shooting. Once Hamas disarm its weapons, we would consider it. Until then, we won’t give them one inch of land. Do you have any other idea that would make them stop the terror and help Palestinians to get a state? Please continue on our debate. We can’t give them more land, because they’ll start shooting at us from there as well. Your suggestion please?
Nope; I indicated that there is an asymmetry in casualties (which you did not dispute), and therefore you can’t claim you are the ones who suffer most. You are the ones who inflict most harm, by a good ratio. This is indisputable.
You justify it (well, claim to do so) but thereby you concede you do it.
Heh.
<snicker>
I’m half decent at complicated strategy games, and I assure you, it’s a sound strategy in the long term. Keeping conquered territory is always expensive, and so is conflict.
(Of course, when I run things, I don’t have pesky politicians or institutions getting in the way)
Nope; I indicated that there is an asymmetry in casualties (which you did not dispute), and therefore you can’t claim you are the ones who suffer most. You are the ones who inflict most harm, by a good ratio. This is indisputable. The ratio is irrelevant!! Who cares about the ratio? They are starting every conflict. We are only responding to terror. There is no proportion in terror. Terror should be eliminated. And if you want an equal ratio, as I told you, we will stop using the army and implement their tactics.
But I told you why we could not do that. We can’t give them any land because when we gave them Gaza, they started shooting. Once Hamas disarm its weapons, we would consider it. Until then, we won’t give them one inch of land. Do you have any other idea that would make them stop the terror and help Palestinians to get a state? Please continue on our debate. We can’t give them more land, because they’ll start shooting at us from there as well. Your suggestion, please?
And as I explained to you before, terrorists should be killed, and I don’t care about any ratio. Regarding civilians, they kill our civilians on purpose, and we don’t kill their civilians on purpose. The reason almost all of the civilian killing on their side is because they choose to die. We warn them, and they don’t leave. That’s their problem.
Eylon:
And there we have it.
Roof knocking (Hebrew: הקש בגג)[1] or “knocks on the roof” is a term used by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to describe its practice of dropping non-explosive or low-yield devices on the roofs of targeted civilian homes[2] in the Palestinian territories as a prior warning of imminent bombing attacks to give the inhabitants time to flee the attack.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9] The practice was employed by the IDF during the 2008–2009 Gaza War, Operation Pillar of Defense in 2012, and Operation Protective Edge in 2014 to target the homes of police officers or Hamas political or military leaders.[10]
Do they warn us before they launch rockets on our homes? NO.
And there we have it. Yup, I just gave you the proof. Here, again: Roof knocking (Hebrew: הקש בגג)[1] or “knocks on the roof” is a term used by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to describe its practice of dropping non-explosive or low-yield devices on the roofs of targeted civilian homes[2] in the Palestinian territories as a prior warning of imminent bombing attacks to give the inhabitants time to flee the attack.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9] The practice was employed by the IDF during the 2008–2009 Gaza War, Operation Pillar of Defense in 2012, and Operation Protective Edge in 2014 to target the homes of police officers or Hamas political or military leaders.[10]
And why do you think the military is targeting civilian homes? Because of the fun of it? No imbecile. It’s because they have missile launchers hidden in rooftops, rooms, etc. So, if we warn them in advance, why are there so many casualties as you claim? Because they choose to stay there in order for you to pity them.
Looks like we have a live one!
Are you really so uninformed that you think no jews attacked their attackers in WWII? Really?.
A lie so stupid I don’t know why you bothered. Gaza is ringed by a wall manned with snipers, and a naval blockade sits off its coast. Pretty sure that counts as Israel imprisoning them, silly child.
When you say ‘given to them’ you mean ‘given back to them’ -- they had been displaced by Israel in the first place.
In which you accidentally admit that they are prisoners, wholly under Israeli blockade.
Sorry mate, but lots of peoples inhabited the area before the semitic cultures formed. Nice try with your attempt to choose Canaanites are your starting point, but I see through it. Worse still for your theory of right of occupation by descent: the arabs (i.e. Palestinians) are descended from those same regional peoples. If Israel has the right to live there by ancient descent, so do they.
You really should have clicked on that “Main article: Prehistory of the Southern Levant” link before posting that shit.
You avoided Marcus’ question. He is descended from Norway, does he get to travel there and displace someone from there home just because his ancestors come from there? If not, then neither does any semitic descendant.
Firstly, the land was not given to the settlers by the Palestinian owners of the land, it was given to them by the British, who had gained it as war settlement following WWI. So much for your talk of ‘no more conquests’! The British only had it via conquest you fucking rube.
Secondly, even if we grant the premise that Israel was given that land completely fairly, you are overlooking the fact that Israel has been annexing land outside the borders they were given by military conquest ever since then. Quite a bit of an oversight!
Oh my god that is so precious.
Eylon,
Let me summarise that for you: you deliberately targeted civilian homes for bombing attacks, and you think it’s perfectly justified and that it is not terrorism.
When you realise just why I adduce the (undisputed by you) asymmetry in weaponry and in suffering, you’ll realise why appealing to your putative mercy is fucking ridiculous.
If you want to compare casualties, and call a people barbaric or whatever on that basis, then let’s have a look at Operation Protective Edge for enlightenment:
Israeli forces: 176,500 active personnel, 565,000 reservists(2012 figures, of which not all are directly involved)
Palestinian forces: Al-Qassam Brigades: 20,000–40,000, Al-Quds Brigades: 8,000
So that’s 176,500 active personnel (plus unknown reservists) invading a civilian area to engage 48,000 personnel at most. Hmm.
Casualties and losses:
Israel:
67 soldiers and 6 civilians (1 Thai) killed, 469 soldiers and 87 civilians wounded
Palestinians:
Gaza Health Minister estimate: 2,310 killed [70% civilians] 10,626 wounded
UN Human Rights Council estimate: 2,251 killed [65% civilians]
Israel Ministry for Foreign Affairs estimate: 2,125 killed [36% civilians, 44% combatants, 20% uncategorized males aged 16–50] [“Israel does not presume to be able to produce a definitive account of all fatalities that occurred during the 2014 Gaza Conflict.”]
Are you certain you want to justify killing them by referencing how murderous they are? Because the figures show that Israeli forces outnumbered Gazan by at least 3.7, and killed THIRTY times as many people in that conflict.
Are you really so uninformed that you think no jews attacked their attackers in WWII? Really? —How can you even compare the two? Moron.
A lie so stupid I don’t know why you bothered. Gaza is ringed by a wall manned with snipers, and a naval blockade sits off its coast. Pretty sure that counts as Israel imprisoning them, silly child. — of course, we blockade them! They use those supplies for terror. Why would we give them supplies that help them build terror tunnels and missiles? But we are not blockading them from leaving Gaza and immigrate. Hamas does.
In which you accidentally admit that they are prisoners, wholly under Israeli blockade. — not accidentally, but rather proudly. Why would we let them terrorize us?
Sorry mate, but lots of peoples inhabited the area before the semitic cultures formed. Nice try with your attempt to choose Canaanites — Canaanites were the first recorded culture to live there. Recorded. Of course, there were others before. Just tell me how the Palestinian claim is is better than ours? As I’ll remind you in 1948 we wanted two states. They did not.
the arabs (i.e. Palestinians) are descended from those same regional peoples. — umm no, that’s not true. But even if it were, they don’t want us here at all. They don’t want two states. So, what’s your solution?!
You avoided Marcus’ question. He is descended from Norway, does he get to travel there and displace someone from there home just because his ancestors come from there? If not, then neither does any semitic descendant. — no i did not avoid his question. I answered it. I’ll answer again: In the ancient world countries were conquered by war from one nation to another. That’s how things were. I don’t think any nation from any country should do that. But that’s already happened, so in order to stop bloodshed, we can’t give back taken lands. We can’t give the US for native Americans for example. Therefore, I would agree to two states, if they would stop terror. As long as there is terror, I won’t give them one inch of land. Because of this:Several hours after Israel withdraws the last of its troops from the Gaza Strip two Qassam rockets are fired by Palestinian militants from the Gaza Strip.
Firstly, the land was not given to the settlers by the Palestinian owners of the land, it was given to them by the British, who had gained it as war settlement following WWI. So much for your talk of ‘no more conquests’! The British only had it via conquest you fucking rube. — The British suggested two states. We agreed, they refused. I’ll repeat it again, the reasons we are refusing now is because they use terror and harm civilians. And because they don’t recognize us as a country and because they don’t want two states even to this day.
Let me summarise that for you: you deliberately targeted civilian homes for bombing attacks, and you think it’s perfectly justified and that it is not terrorism. — There are rocket launchers there!!! Idiot!!!!! What do you want us to do?!?!? Let’s let them just keep launching rockets and do nothing! Great!!!!
You really think that’s ok that they are using homes, kindergartens, hospitals, schools to launch missiles from? Are you justifying that? And if not, do to just keep letting them do that, or let them evacuate and destroy the missiles? Is there any other option I’ve failed to mention? Enlighten me.
Are you certain you want to justify killing them by referencing how murderous they are? Because the figures show that Israeli forces outnumbered Gazan by at least 3.7, and killed THIRTY times as many people in that conflict. —-- I hate to keep repeating myself. The fact that there are so many civilian casualties is because they hide their terror infrastructure, missiles and rockets among civilians. In kindergartens, schools, hospitals, homes. They do that on purpose and you are a moron not to realize that. We warn the civilians beforehand, but they choose to stay and die in order for the world to pity them. What are we supposed to do? Seriously.
The only thing I condemn Israel for is leaving Gaza in the first place. Because of that like I said Hamas is using it’s civilians as human shields and we can’t stop it. We should have stayed there, and keep the army there. Because we did not, we have no choice but to harm civilians that are refusing to leave the terror buildings.
I’ll oversimplify that. Terrorists are shooting at your home from another home, which also occupied by civilians. You warn the civilians to evacuate because you want to destroy the launch pad. They refuse. What do you do? Let the terrorists keep launching missiles? Or bomb the house? Now keep note that there is not just one house, but thousands. What do you do smartass?
Eylon, I genuinely wonder if you are so brainwashed to believe your own propaganda or not. As a US citizen I have been inundated with your arguments my entire life from childhood. I even agreed with you when I was young and stupid and thought the US invasion of Iraq wasn’t a bad idea. Since then I’ve learned how easily lies fall out of brutes and to think critically.
The simple fact of the matter is you support brutal collective punishment and an apartheid state. You will find no support on this blog for such an odious perspective.
What would I do if I were in Israel’s position? Support bargaining in good faith instead of steady encroachment onto land that was not lawfully granted by the UN. And not shoot people throwing rocks in their legs, for a start. That you believe that is a ‘compassionate’ response tells so much about your character.
Sam -- I’ll oversimplify that. Terrorists are shooting at your home from another home, which also occupied by civilians. You warn the civilians to evacuate because you want to destroy the launch pad. They refuse. What do you do? Let the terrorists keep launching missiles? Or bomb the house? Now keep note that there is not just one house, but thousands. What do you do?
Terror tunnels, the main investment of the Hamas terror organization, are not aimed to create a better future for the residents of Gaza, but are rather destroying it, propelling Gaza toward a conflict with Israel. Hundreds of millions of dollars, many of which comes from foreign aid, which Hamas diverts to tunnel building rather than to aid Gaza’s two million residents
On 28 July Hamas militants attacked an Israeli military outpost near Nahal Oz using a tunnel, killing five Israeli soldiers. One attacker was also killed.[64]
On 1 August 2014, Hamas militants emerging from a tunnel attacked an Israeli patrol in Rafah, thus violating a humanitatian ceacefire,[65] killing two Israeli soldiers. Israel at first believed that the militants had abducted Lieutenant Hadar Goldin and were holding him, but Israel later determined that Goldin had also been killed.[66]
Khaled Jaabari, Gaza commander of the al-Aqsa Martyr’s Brigades, said that the group uses Google Earth to determine targets.[134] Rocket fire occasionally occurs in the early morning when children head to school.[135][136]
A source close to Hamas described the movement’s tactic of launching projectiles from between homes during the 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict: “They fired rockets in between the houses and covered the alleys with sheets so they could set the rockets up in five minutes without the planes seeing them. The moment they fired, they escaped, and they are very quick.”[137] Videos released by Hamas in 2011 show Qassam rockets being fired from residential areas and mosques. According to Yedioth Aharonoth journalist Elior Levy, “Gaza terror cells choose to fire from urban areas knowing that the Israel Defense Forces refrain from intercepting them for fear of hurting civilians. The killing of civilians in Gaza also serves the terrorists’ purposes who claim Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza”.[138]
Learn the truth, morons.
I didn’t. I’m replying to your statement “I don’t remember the Jews who were forcefully placed in ghettos, launched missiles from it and dug terror tunnels.” Jews were placed in ghettos and other prisons if you recall, and they retaliated. Much as the Gazans are doing, in retaliation for being placed in a prison of their own.
Oh, really? Tell me, what happens if a Gazan approaches the encircling wall and attempts to leave? Wait, I know this one: the snipers blow his head off. Or what about leaving by sea? Oh yeah, killed by warships.
But sure, Hamas is the entity keeping them in their cage.
Are you an idiot? First you claimed that only Hamas was keeping them imprisoned, then you admit -- in the very next paragraph -- that Israel keeps them imprisoned. And you even admit this “proudly”.
Earlier, you said that Canaanites were the first people there, now you move the goalposts to a new claim: they were the first people recorded there. Which is dishonest in and of itself, but also… they aren’t the first recorded culture of the region. Look at the link I provided!
I didn’t say their claim was better, I said it was equal.
Why would they? Their land was being divided up and given away by a remote foreign power, who obtained the land via military conquest.
Sorry, but it is.
“Before the expansion of the Rashidun Caliphate (632–661), “Arab” referred to any of the largely nomadic and settled Semitic people from the Arabian Peninsula, Syrian Desert, North and Lower Mesopotamia.”
Semitic people. Also, “Tradition holds that Arabs descend from Ishmael, the son of Abraham.”
The two state solution is not feasible; this would suggest that a one-state solution is the only possibility. But every round of peace talks with this goal has been scuttled… often (though not exclusively) by Israel.
So can Marcus go back to Norway to claim some land for himself, or not? Because you did not answer that.
And it has been pointed out to you that a large part of their motivation to attack you is because Israel is grinding them into the dust. Unfortunately, this means any demand that they unilaterally stop what they are doing and then Israel will ease the pressure is doomed to fail; peace efforts must be bilateral.
Think for just a microsecond. If you think it is justified to attack them because ‘there are rocket launchers there’, it stands to reason that they probably justify their attacks against you similarly. Recall the whole ‘grinding them into the dust’ thing.
Don’t quote me anymore, quote Wikipedia. For each bullshit you’re spreading, Wikipedia will help me uncover the truth. I’m using only Wikipedia from now on.
Yes, I agree that’s a massive oversimplification. Terrorists keep launching terribly inaccurate missiles? Do civilians refuse of their own will or are they held there by threat of violence? I likely do end up striking that launch pad, with an ordinance designed to be as small as possible, yet able to destroy. A drone with a high caliber gun is still pretty brutal, but more precise than a bomb that will destroy an entire house.
Nice dodge of course. I mentioned two concrete actions Israel could take, but doesn’t. Did I criticize strikes on rocket launch sites? No, although the Israeli response seems designed to cause massive collateral damage. There are many other things to criticize with regards to Israeli policy towards Palestinians that have nothing to do with such imminent danger to Israeli civilians.
@ Eylon, I don’t see anyone here supporting Hamas or their actions. I see people criticizing brutal aspects of Israeli policy toward Palestinians. I know you would love nothing more than to conflate the two, but there is absolutely no need to conflate them. It’s simply a tactic you use to defend the indefensible.
Oh, really? Tell me, what happens if a Gazan approaches the encircling wall and attempts to leave? Wait, I know this one: the snipers blow his head off. Or what about leaving by sea? Oh yeah, killed by warships — that is a blunt lie. Read: https://imemc.org/article/israel-detains-2-palestinian-children-crossing-the-border-from-gaza-strip/
Are you an idiot? First you claimed that only Hamas was keeping them imprisoned, then you admit — in the very next paragraph — that Israel keeps them imprisoned. And you even admit this “proudly.” — read here: The first expense occurs at the border with Egypt while leaving Gaza. The Hamas officials manning the checkpoints demand a bribe, while an additional bribe will get you to the top of the waiting list.
The population fleeing Gaza is primarily students who see no future in the Hamas-ruled Strip, while entire families and young women have also set out for Europe
I didn’t say their claim was better, I said it was equal. — me neither. I did say that their claim can’t be terror. Our claim is two states. Their claim is only Palestinian state.
Why would they? Their land was being divided up and given away by a remote foreign power, who obtained the land via military conquest. — why would we? This was our land before, and was also taken from us by force. But we do agree to two states. They don’t.
So can Marcus go back to Norway to claim some land for himself, or not? Because you did not answer that. —- I did answer that. I said no. Therefore, there should be two states, once they stop the terror and accept us as a neighbor country.
Think for just a microsecond. If you think it is justified to attack them because ‘there are rocket launchers there’, it stands to reason that they probably justify their attacks against you similarly. Recall the whole ‘grinding them into the dust’ thing. —- September 12, 2005
Several hours after Israel withdraws the last of its troops from the Gaza Strip two Qassam rockets are fired by Palestinian militants from the Gaza Strip. The first lands near the Israeli town of Sderot, while the second lands near Kibbutz Yad Mordechai.[12][13]
Khaled Jaabari, Gaza commander of the al-Aqsa Martyr’s Brigades, said that the group uses Google Earth to determine targets.[134] Rocket fire occasionally occurs in the early morning when children head to school.[135][136]
A source close to Hamas described the movement’s tactic of launching projectiles from between homes during the 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict: “They fired rockets in between the houses and covered the alleys with sheets so they could set the rockets up in five minutes without the planes seeing them. The moment they fired, they escaped, and they are very quick.”[137] Videos released by Hamas in 2011 show Qassam rockets being fired from residential areas and mosques. According to Yedioth Aharonoth journalist Elior Levy, “Gaza terror cells choose to fire from urban areas knowing that the Israel Defense Forces refrain from intercepting them for fear of hurting civilians. The killing of civilians in Gaza also serves the terrorists’ purposes who claim Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza”.[138]
No, it’s because Israel has an army, navy, and air force destroying those things. Israeli ordnance does the damage. And you dodged the point: when it comes to killing, the casualties are heavily disproportionate. Israel is doing by far the majority of the killing, by far the majority of the war crime; it has the military power to enact its will over that of the Palestinians. Israel is therefore by far the more bloodstained, murderous entity.
“We should have ground them into the dirt even harder” -- your concern is so moving ;_;
And in retaliation, Israel killed about 2,250 people, most of whom were civilians. In what universe is that a justified response? Because in this universe, that is a war crime.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak4Q7gn9x4Y
No, it’s because Israel has an army, navy, and air force destroying those things. Israeli ordnance does the damage. And you dodged the point: when it comes to killing, the casualties are heavily disproportionate. Israel is doing by far the majority of the killing, by far the majority of the war crime; it has the military power to enact its will over that of the Palestinians. Israel is therefore by far the more bloodstained, murderous entity——-- Khaled Jaabari, Gaza commander of the al-Aqsa Martyr’s Brigades, said that the group uses Google Earth to determine targets.[134] Rocket fire occasionally occurs in the early morning when children head to school.[135][136]
A source close to Hamas described the movement’s tactic of launching projectiles from between homes during the 2008-2009 Israel-Gaza conflict: “They fired rockets in between the houses and covered the alleys with sheets so they could set the rockets up in five minutes without the planes seeing them. The moment they fired, they escaped, and they are very quick.”[137] Videos released by Hamas in 2011 show Qassam rockets being fired from residential areas and mosques. According to Yedioth Aharonoth journalist Elior Levy, “Gaza terror cells choose to fire from urban areas knowing that the Israel Defense Forces refrain from intercepting them for fear of hurting civilians. The killing of civilians in Gaza also serves the terrorists’ purposes who claim Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza”.[138]
This might just be my imagination, but this guy is strongly reminiscent of StevoR. The angry/impassioned defense of all Israeli actions by blaming human shields and similar, the random incidents being brought in with an air of “see? see what I mean?”, the mistaken belief that criticising Israel means siding with Hamas, and especially the scattershot, stream of consciousness multi-posts…
Is this just a pattern common to Israel ideologues, or is this a StevoR sock puppet??
Anyway I’m off to bed. I’m sure this will be at some ludicrous number of posts by the time I knock off tomorrow.
Watch and learn.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KOcEX6Eu85g
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fcrWy3PT6zc
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQQFJXMrg4
I’m tired of writing; I’m moving to videos. More convincing. Here are more:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lpTZUAkNOUA
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UXZEzbT0H1s
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BTiNadX4VU4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uz_wk-Wix8M
Have a nice watch:)))))))
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uz_wk-Wix8M
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7gRxaidKVQQ
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r5168ysQ2rU
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2pjFJ0HPt5g
See the difference.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aIZjukPWn04
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aIZjukPWn04
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qGpqQdr-eYs
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kp8aTvVQIy0
I hope you’ll watch at least some of it. You can actually see Palestinians and Israelis testimonials first hand.
I have added a new post reflecting on what we can learn from this comment thread.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=76NytvQAIs0
Watch this.
Mano, might I ask why the troll is not banned yet? They do not even write coherent text, it is impossible to find out where quoting someone ends and writing the response begins. Plus, by now they are simply spamming, one post after another, and links to Prager fucking “University”, as if those contain any information worth knowing.
Charly,
In general, I am reluctant to ban people and have done so to just one person so far. But I have given a warning to Eylon in a new post that he is really close to the line.
He’s funnier though. Even at his most delusional, StevoR never imagined that anybody would find a YouTube video from PragerU convincing.
Watch the videos, don’t be lazy. And the fact I don’t use quotations is that I don’t seen to have the option to do so. I’m not posting any videos, but try to choose at least one, and watch it. I’m sure you’ll watch the other ones after that.
Seen* anymore*
Eylon,
As I have warned before, one person overwhelming comment threads with repeated postings is grounds for being banned.
One more comment by you on either this thread or the other one and you will be banned.
You can try and block me, I would agree not to post videos anymore, but I have every right to comment. I respect you and thus I won’t post videos repeatedly and I won’t make multiple comments, but I will comment and spread the truth. And if you want to ban me, go ahead and try. I know many ways to come back, so I’m saving you the trouble, don’t try. Respect me like I respect you.
Eylon,
You make a mistake when you say that you have ‘every right to comment’. Actually, you don’t. You are right that you have the right of free speech but where you are confused is in assuming that I have to give you a platform for that speech.
I see my role in the blog comments as that of an editor and as such I can decide who gets to post. I am usually pretty lax but there are limits and you have crossed it. I am sure you will try to find ways to comment using different methods because that is, after all, part of the hasbara training.
So goodbye Eylon. I would like to say that it has been nice knowing you but that would not be true.
Charly @121 (121!!!)
Oh gods, the videos are from Prager “U”!?!?!?! And this person expects us to take them seriously?!!?!
(And thank you for clicking the links. I refuse to go to any YouTube channel that could screw up the algorithms for me.)
For what it’s worth, I watched one and it was worthless. Ooh, some Israelis said they didn’t hate Palestinians, I guess that makes it impossible to criticise Israel!!!