I got this email this morning, and I think it was misaddressed — it’s intended for the people who comment here, not me. Don’t you people have one common address that people can write to? Anyway, I’ll let you all deal with it for a change.
Dr. Myers,
This is probably something I’ll regret doing in the morning.. but I had to write. I’ve been reading your blog for a few years now, in the corner quietly. I don’t know why it was today, but I can’t stop crying.
Your commenters for years had scared me because of their tendency to call out people and not be polite about it. I kept reading because I wondered what I wasn’t seeing. There had to be a reason.
Now to me, they’re my heroes.
I realized tonight the scope of the problem you’re trying to call attention to, perhaps really for the first time ever. And it’s so much bigger than I’d thought. It makes me think of an old quotation, possibly from one of Dean Koontz’s books “Ignorance isn’t bliss exactly, but it does make it possible to sleep at night”.
I’m relatively young, (late 30s) and have never been raped. And somehow I find myself feeling ashamed of it. Like I don’t have the right to try to empathize with those who have been. I cannot imagine that horror and the toll it takes. The bravery that those who talk about it, over and over again just blows me away.
Even now, writing this.. I’m scared of being harrassed to the levels that people like Anita and so many countless others are. I try to keep a pretty minimal social media presence for my own peace of mind, if nothing else. Nothing like what these brave people have dealt with has happened to me, and yet.. I feel like what happens to them happens to all of us. Whatever salient points might have been made in the beginning of the whole #gamergate issue (and from my understandings I’m not sure there are any) have been long since buried under acts of pure terrorism.
There was a poster using the name ‘laziness evolved’ who seems to exemplify what I consider the most insidious and damaging form of sexism- the people who really claim to be doing things in real life to end it, while holding the most demeaning and dismissing views of those they are purporting to help. I suppose that got to me most of all because these are the people I tend to interact with more regularly. They go on and on for hours about all the feminist groups they interacted with in college or learned about, all the ‘work’ they did and are really quick to tout their feminist credentials, but when it comes to holding their own views up for scrutiny, especially when the things they say are dismissive at best- all their ability to learn goes right out the window.
It’s a whole lot easier to see and dismiss/defeat the giant monster up ahead than the one that lives inside our friends/allies. I suspect you’ve learned that as well given what Dawkins and Harris have been talking about lately. All I can think of is how much I wish the behavior of folks like them to be attributable to some sort of alcoholism or drug abuse, cause at least then there would have been something tangible to blame it on.
The ability of your ‘horde’ to recognize and stamp out oppressive language every time it rears it’s ugly head and *keep doing it* in the face of such willful damaging statements brings me to tears, every time. I was exhausted just reading some of the threads. Your blog might be one of the very few safe spaces for women on the net. I wish there was more, but just say I won’t hold my breath.
I cannot be a part of the atheist movement because it does not want people like me. Plus, as an agnostic Pagan pantheist, I’m not sure I’d even qualify. But I do care deeply about separation of church and state, science, education, and feminism and other issues like that and have come to rely on your blog for more accurate information than I’m likely to find elsewhere.
Women are losing their voices. Never even considered that as a possibility in the country I was taught could do no wrong.
I’ve never felt that I had anything worth saying, especially when everyone around me did their best to not hear me or dismiss/minimize my thoughts. Even now I have extreme difficulty articulating myself. Please forgive my rambling.
As hard as it must be for you, thank you. and please keep doing it. The rest of the net could take a hint.
Wow. Well said.
What a great email. And as a long-time lurker, I second everything that person said. Kudos to all the regular commenters at Pharyngula and the work you do to make this place safe and awesome.
Dear LW,
Thank you for saying in very lovely words what I would like to say to the commenters here, also. You took the time to think out and express how and why this place is such a safe zone and source of comfort and strength for women who struggle with the maelstrom of hostile and misogynist thought that rages over most of the internet, including, most depressingly, a lot of the “progressive” places.
To the commenters here: You are my reality check. You help put a name to the sources of my fury and help me tease apart the layers of misdirection and falsehood that cloak malice and ignorance in hyper-rational/libertarian/Spockian discourse. You make me feel as if there is a team on my side. Thanks for fighting the good fight.
— J
So, she’s afraid to open her mouth. And understandably so.
That’s so depressing.
Looks like the terrorists have won.
(Let’s hope it’s only temporary.)
Sorry to bring on the downer, but it’s a fine line between some of what has been known to go on here and the hatred and fury directed at feminists elsewhere. The main difference? I agree with the causes here. Elsewhere on the net, lonely ‘dudes’ who feel vulnerable and left out of life are also filled with tears of gratitude when they see louder mouths tearing into those they consider their oppressors. They also feel they have found a community and a voice for their anger. They run to rape and death threats which I haven’t seen here, and I hope I won’t, because I sincerely hope they would get moderated. I have seen expressed wishes for harm to ‘somehow’ come to someone or other.
Very nice letter. I feel I cannot comment on some of the more, say, fatalistic aspects of it – although I am pretty sure the “atheist community” really is in want of someone with the critical and moral capacities exhibited. But, please let me join in with a heartfelt “thank you” for all the good people commenting here. I have learned a whole lot myself from this blog, so PZ,
Christophe,
Don’t let the shitlords get you down. They can’t win as long as people fight back because their only goal is our silence. They scare alot of people. They scare me. That’s what terrorists do. What they don’t understand is that people overcome fear in a thousand big and small ways every day.
As PZ points out regularly, what he (and most of the commenters) want isn’t an “atheist movement”, defined only by your stance on gods vs not gods. It is also about reason, humanity, compassion, diversity, etc.–all things that you apparently aspire to. That already makes you a part of this movement, albeit passively. Like you, I am a comment lurker and not vociferous like many of the commenters here who fight the good fight on countless Internet and real-life fronts daily. Just letting them know that you are out there and are grateful for what they do is enough. So, sleep well and continue to value those traits. Someday, maybe you and I can find a louder voice and the will to use it.
Link please.
An oft heard cry from the Pittyfools and their ilk is that FtB and Pharyngula in particular are fading into obscurity. You know what? Even if that were true, emails like this are more than enough motivation to continue to read and comment here. Hell, I’ll go even further: emails like this are the key to unlocking my voice.
I’m your typical cis, hetero, white, middle-aged male. The only thing keeping me from being the most privileged asshole on the planet is a relative lack of wealth. If I were to remain silent about all the social inequity in the world nothing, not a goddamn thing, would change for me because the world isn’t inequitable for me. I need reminding, I need prodding, I need a smack upside the head now and again. I need to unlock my voice because when I speak the power of all my unearned privilege means that my voice is heard.
So, thank you email writer. Thank you for the reminder that silence, no matter how easy, is not an option because so many people have had their voices taken away.
To whomever wrote this letter, I am sorry about what I said yesterday and any reminder it may have given you of the wrong sorts of men out in the world. I won’t try to argue or justify my point of view, or to make claims about not being “one of those guys”…I am just sorry that it had this effect on you and I hope you can forgive me for it. If I am saying things that can make any woman think of guys like that, then I need to learn a lot about how to phrase my beliefs. I’m not there yet it seems, but one day I hope to be.
And also this: if it is my beliefs that need to change, I am open to that.
I agree and identify with what NVSkeptic said @7
Even though you’re not technically an atheist you’re still on our side. This place is not about not believing in god. You can say that in five words and the discussion is over. This is about pushing back against the power given by an imaginary authority (as if the argument from authority wasn’t a fallacy to begin with) to the privileged to rob the rest of us of our human dignity.
Welcome home.
So much for sticking the flounce. Oy.
First of all, I hope that the writer, and others, won’t be intimidated. Anita Sarkeesian had to cancel her speech at Utah State, but she definitely hasn’t shut up and isn’t backing down. The fact is, we’ve managed to win a lot in the culture wars over my lifetime, and feminism has accomplished more than young people may realize. There’s a lot further to go, but there is a general understanding of right and wrong that we didn’t have before. Sexual harassment and discrimination in the workplace used to be legal and widely tolerated. It obviously still happens, but women do have recourse in many cases. It used to be generally accepted that men could beat their wives — not very long ago. In fact, it was impossible, under the law in most states, for men to have raped their wives, i.e. marital rape was not rape. That’s all changed in my lifetime. So buck up, we’re winning — gradually, and justice delayed is justice denied, to be sure. But it’s going to keep happening if people speak out and have courage.
That’s my view.
FossilFishy, #9
I just want to say that was an awesome paragraph to read.
Hey Laziness,
I’m a lurker here, like you, but I wanted to say that I hope that this letter helps you realized why you were stamped on pretty hard yesterday, and why it was a good thing. It happened to me also (not here) and it was always good for me, because when the anger, the defensive attitude and the doubling down faded came the realization that I needed to get a kick in the ass.
Because sometimes you’re a shit head. It happens to everybody and it can be very hard to see yourself that way (that’s when the listing of all the good you did usually come, to deny the shitheadedness, as if the two were mutually exclusive).
This letter show you why you got kicked that hard. It was not to belittle you, but to help people like the OP above make it a safe place for those who never really feel completely safe, even if you don’t realize it.
Being called a sexist is not a big deal. Being called a racist is not a big deal. Being called an asshole is certainly not a big deal. Feeling fear and anger most of your life because of the culture all around you is a big deal.
You made what looks like a good apology, so I want to write this message that I would never have wrote yesterday: you should stay, and learn, so you can see that this is not about you. It’s about the letter writer. And people here will not keep a grudge if you show that you can see that. It’s a good thing. It was for me at least and I recognize myself from a few years ago in your arguments from yesterday.
Anyway, tl;dr
For Lazinessinvolved: it could be nice for you to stay because it’s when people aren’t overly concerned of being nice to you that you can learn what a lot of people who keep silent also feel.
And more importantly, for the letter writer: all the hugs in the world for you!
drst @ 13
I feel like an asshole and I am sitting here trying to reevaluate not just my phrasing but also my point of view on this. If it made this person feel this way, then it’s not the way I want to be. It doesn’t really matter to me if you or others want to crow about it, what matters to me is trying to improve who I am as a person and not causing harm to others. My words hurt this person, and that was shitty of me. I want to not be that guy, and deep-down I believe I am not that guy, but it is clear that what I said yesterday conveys the opposite.
This person’s well-spoken thoughts are all that matter. She was right, what I was saying could be taken to put me in alignment with people I am not allied with at all, and just the thought that slimeballs could have genuine support from a false ally must be distressing. If I can act internally to change that, I will, because it needs to happen. But by all means, taunt me.
“But by all means taunt me.”
Stop it. Stop it right now before you get started. Sit on your hands. Tape your mouth shut. Do *anything* you need to to stop yourself making this all about poor you again.
Do your thinking by yourself. Don’t come back again until you can stop the self-centered behavior. I know from experience how you feel. I also know from experience, having done it, that you’re teetering on the edge of massive egotistical assholism again.
Don’t.
kassad @ 16
Thanks for that. I didn’t like how it went down, and I believe that if things had stayed civil I may have ended up feeling the same way regardless, but the fact is that raking me over the coals so mercilessly gave this person some hope that she had allies. Although she called me out by name, I want to also be one of those allies.
Josh @ 18
Yeah, you’re right. I have to accept people are going to crow about this and let it roll over me. So no worries, I am not engaging like that again.
To the letter writer, I would suggest We Hunted the Mammoth as another very safe space to read, learn, and comment.
http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/
@Laziness
Actually no. You have people being civil to you every day. In fact right now you could go on a whatever site you want and have people being civil to you all you want. Being yell at sometime help grab your attention and maybe reevaluate thing you take for granted. And you only read this letter because you were yelled at.
Listen to Josh. This doesn’t come from a bad place. He’s saying, like I tried, “learn from my mistakes, and yours”.
Again, this is not about you or the people yelling at you. It is about the OP.
kassad @ 22
Which I agreed with. I wrote that reply to drst’s message and thought “I should delete that last part”. Then didn’t. I should’ve listened to my instincts there. I do refuse ot make this about me and I genuinely want my apology to stick without bullshit qualifications.
drst: ignore it. I’m sorry.
I’m not really a regular, so I won’t presume to say much, but I will say this:
Don’t ever feel ashamed of the ways you haven’t suffered, just acknowledge it. Recognise that others have suffered these things, and listen when they speak on the relevant subjects, and you don’t need to be granted the right to empathise, that comes as a free trait unlock.
@ lazinessevolved
Please don’t do this. This kind of posturing is largely why you got the treatment you did yesterday right from the outset. Please don’t take this thread, of all threads and make it all about how mean people are/were to you.
I agree that drst was out of line @ 13. I felt you responded because you were named specifically and your apology seemed sincere. I too hope you stick around and learn.
Seven @ 25
Thanks. I really actually have lurked since 2005. I do have thick enough skin that yesterday won’t change that. This woman’s letter was eye-opening, and it wouldn’t have happened without me being fell upon yesterday. So the one required the other. I went to bed last night probably about 80% of the way to this and woke up to read this, which was the shove that made me realize I was wrong. I am still working out internally what parts exactly are wrong, but if the words I used to defend myself yesterday made that person feel that way, they have to be wrong, and I have to figure out why.
For people like me who aren’t familiar with the situation, can someone link me to the original post/comments for some context for this?
Marshall @ 27
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2014/10/14/general-harris-instructs-liberals-to-surrender-on-the-home-front/
Seven @ 25 – I guess I can see that interpretation. I hate people who claim “you all suck I’m leaving” and then keep coming back to stir shit up again. It’s such a naked ploy for attention in most cases, it just gets my back up. But YMMV.
@ lazinessevolved # 26
I think that you’re in the right place, and people here can really help you figure things out and maybe put words on what you are just vaguely sensing right now. It’s just that this thread is not the place for that.
Maybe swinging by the Lounge, or the Thunderdome, you’ll find some people to discuss and clarify things with.
And I think that it is good to show the letter writer that they actually helped you in some way.
@OP
It looks to me that you already have an effect, and on more than one person. I hope that you go to bed knowing that you helped make things a little better. You have something that’s worth saying. That’s a cold hard fact :)
drst @ 29
But I never said I was leaving, I said I had to go make dinner for my family (veggie tamales). Always intended to stick around the site, and had a lot to think about. Sorry if it seemed disingenuous on my part to leave when I did but it was just RL. Was a good thing, honestly, because the distance plus the letter PZ posted were helpful.
Dear LW – thank you. Thank you for what you said and how eloquently you said it. I lurk far more than I comment, but I do lurk here quite a bit and I just wanted to say +1 to pretty much everything in your email.
(lazinessevolved, I agree with Seven of Mine. Stick around, maybe join us mostly-lurkers for a while …?)
kassad @ 30
Good point. I’ll wait for another thread, another day.
@OP
If you read this, thank you again. That letter mattered, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for being brave enough to write it.
@PZ
It burns, but thank you, too.
@All
Thanks, and sorry I didn’t see it more clearly yesterday. Stupid emotions.
Jafafa Hots @8:
I suspect it’s a reference to the various times commenters will say things such as wishing a rapist goes to jail and is raped. I’ve seen plenty of comments here where someone acknowledges their reflexive reaction of wishing violence on a bad person, often phrased as “I know I shouldn’t wish this, but [common vengeance fantasy].”
The difference is that the Horde will quickly respond and tell the commenter that such comments aren’t acceptable. There’s no support for espousing violence, even by proxy, here.
Many months ago, in some of my first comments on the site, i made some unfortunate comments in an abortion thread. Basically i made a mountain out of a molehill about a comment that somebody else made and then indulged in some pointless hypotheticals, etc, and things got heated and i went full on egothistical asshole mode. I got abuse for it….i got called names…not just imaginative expletives (i don’t care about those), but words that actually have the power to hurt me, like “mysoginist”…i got really angry and frustrated and hurt that anyone out there might think i was the kind of arsehole that i was being told i was. I didn’t sleep that night…seething with anger and frustration…
Time has passed and i have learned a lot, not just about the specific subject that that thread was about, but also about how things work here, why people react the way they do, why certain things cause a strong and inmediate reaction among many of the commenters, why the things i said caused that reaction, i understand it much better now…At the time i felt it was unnecessary abuse…just completely gratuitous and vicious. Now i think they were too nice…Don’t get me wrong, there were things said about my character that were mistaken, i’m not exactly how i was portrayed, but the thing that i didn’t get at the time but do get now, is that they weren’t completely wrong about me. I wanted them to be, but there was a grain of truth there (why was i wasting time with those silly hypotheticals, why was i so defensive, why didn’t i see that i was being an obstacle), and realising that hurt…but it was also an excellent opportunity to do something about it, because now i was aware.
When people have strong reactions here, there is a reason for it. It’s never gratuitous, it’s never out of rabid malice. It pays off to get your head out of your own arse and listen to what they are actually saying. These people have experience, they can see the prejudice in you that you are completely unaware off and they will blast it out into the open. That’s not always fun, but it is always beautiful…:)
@lazinessevolved: This is the point where you really need to stop talking, because you appear to be asking for cookies.
Self-flagellation and self-abasement do not impress atheists. No one will favor you for your contrition. Right now you’re making an impression as “That asshat who wants rewards for moving one step closer to being a thoughtful person.” Whereas if you stop calling attention to yourself, it will all pass and you will be able to participate here with no one judging you by your past errors.
Internalize the lesson you have learned. Try to do better next time. But do it not for the gold stars and head-pats, but because you want to be a better person, regardless of what anyone else here thinks of you.
@frog #36
That’s a big assumption. But it doesn’t impress here at least.
I can’t credit Pharyngula for changing my mind, but you gave me a place where I can call out shit and feel welcome.
kassad@37: Good point. I tend to think of Pharyngula as representative of atheists because I’m foolishly optimistic.
(And because these are the atheists I know. I avoid the other sort.)
Hey, I’m a Pagan atheist myself, and I know I’m not the only one here. (finger horns to Raven) so please, pull up a chair and we’ll deal you in. If you are rational and of good will, that’s enough for me.
And to Lazinessevolved, your laziness seems to be evolving, and that’s a good thing. Kudos to you for recognizing your shortcomings, and I wish you well on overcoming them.
I started posting under another name as a staunch libertarian, back when Walton was one too, for those of you who remember. Sure, I defended my views, but nobody here was having any. It made me wonder, too, what I was missing or getting wrong. I finally concluded that libertarianism is crude, childish, and victim-blaming. I’ve been a socialist-leaning liberal now for at least a couple years, and it’s a principled, compassionate stance that calls for the best in yourself and for seeing the best in other people. Sometimes it takes being dropped forcibly on your head to crack it enough to let in a little air and light.
OP, the “atheist movement” might not want you, but individual atheists, that’s another story. I’d rather be part of a “movement” of truth and compassionate justice than any self-named “atheist movement”. Atheism, for me, came from a conviction that God, too, was crude, childish, and victim-blaming (among other things like, you know, not actually existing). I have many Pagan and agnostic and New-Agey friends, among whom I’m kind of the token nerd. I guess what I’m trying to say is that if we’re going in the same direction, feel free to walk next to me.
That happens a lot on the internet… but here?
It would get slammed down quickly and slammed down hard. So no, I don’t buy the “I’ve seen that kind of thing on Pharyngula” argument, except in the few cases where someone new says it and gets told to knock it off in no uncertain terms by many regulars.
It is not tolerated here for even a second.
We’ve got a couple of awesome theists and various flavors of agnostics here, so you are always welcome, if you ever feel so inclined, Letter Writer. Taking down religious privilege and focusing on rational, empathetic bases for values instead of “god says” handwaving isn’t just restricted to the purest of atheists.
I know that Pharyngula has really pushed me along my own path of self-examination, as well as providing immense support when it comes to experiences that have felt so isolating.
frog@39
Actually, I enjoy Pharyngula even more now that there is an explicit “I’d rather have a good person that might be religious with me than an atheist who’s an asshole” message (which seem to “delight” the dictionary atheists, so that’s a bonus).
While I agree that atheist would seem to imply being a more empathetic person, this is a correlation that I never really observed in my life. And people suffering do not care about your musings about the universe and the meaning of life. What counts is what you do to make the world around you less painful for others.
I think that this blog as more to offer in term of social commentary than as a religious debate platform (of course, it can be both, but if you had to chose…)
The LW is not thanking PZ because he mocked the Eucharist. They’re thanking him because he created a space when the usual fuckwittery permeating most of our culture is told to fuck off. And that a nice place to go to, at least for a little while.
frog @36
I’m glad lazinessevolved apologized to the LW and everyone. I didn’t post in that thread but I did read it, and I’m glad lazinessevolved has figured out that xi was wrong (sorry, lazinessevolved… I don’t want to misgender you).
@lazinessevolved… you are at the beginning. Join the lurkers (which sometimes includes me), read and learn. I know sometimes the phrase “shut up and listen” can be taken wrong, but it applies. Take your time here now to do just that, and learn from it. You are already taking the right steps. Keep going.
And trust me… I have experience with this. Back when We Hunted the Mammoth was Manboobz, I got butthurt in a thread about that “how to avoid getting raped advice” because I got rightfully chewed out for pulling a “what if it’s cynicism, not misogyny” gambit… which is, of course, bullshit, because even if there’s some sense of cynicism/misanthropy inherent in that shit, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s terrible and misogynistic and worthless, and talking about it outside of that context doesn’t help. I had to learn that the hard way from them. I flounced, and did manage to stick it, but came back a long while later with my tail between my legs, having realized why I was the one who was wrong.
And they forgave me.
We can forgive you, too, while you’re serious about figuring out why you were wrong.
And to the Letter Writer… I was crying while reading this. You are so welcome here. Absolutely 100% welcome here. If you do ever feel a desire to post, please know that we’ll all be here for you, to accept you and welcome you.
Your email is a good summation of why I refuse to identify with the Atheist Movement now… because of the problem that you so clearly expose inherent within the movement. It is beyond disgusting to me you would not be welcome anywhere simply because of who you are. This is not fair, to you, or anyone else. I hope you work up the courage to post here. I also have to second the suggestion of We Hunted the Mammoth. They are absolutely amazing, as well, and Dave Futrelle makes navigating the whole MRA/PUA/MGTOW/Incel shit more palatable with his wit and humor.
Jafafa Hots
And qualifying it as “I know I shouldn’t feel this way…” doesn’t get any fucking traction either. Because rape is not a fucking punishment. Fuck everyone who ever thinks that bullshit, doubly so if they release that thought outside their fucking skulls.
No, that shit is not tolerated here at all.
===================
OP, I feel you. I’m sorry you were so badly effect by the assclam. I feel the same way about this place and the commenters here have helped me tremendously, even before they got me commenting. :) As a rape victim, (who posted my stories in that thread, I’m sorry if that was traumatic. I should’ve made my trigger warning more pronounced), you shouldn’t feel bad about not being raped. I’m glad you haven’t been. That’s what I want for every person. I’m still silent beyond Pharyngula because of the threats to my safety as well. There’s nothing wrong with protecting yourself. Don’t sacrifice yourself or feel like you have to. Your well-being is far more important. Commenting here helps me so that’s what I do. From what I gather, others on Twitter have their own communities to support each other so it’s much the same situation. Every time someone has to back away (there’s a blogger specifically I’m thinking of but can’t remember her name), the response is always sorry that it happened and agreeing with their choice. I will never be for taking away your choice, OP. That and spreading safety beyond pocket places is what I’m fighting for. I hope one day you’re safe and supported enough to find your voice, even if it’s a quiet one because no one should be silenced like this and suffering alone.
OP:
Hey, they allowed Sam Harris in, and he believes in a god and the supernatural.
Jafafa Hots and JAL:
If you will read the second (and final) paragraph of my (quite short) comment @34, you will see that you’re not telling me anything I didn’t already say. YES, THE PHARYNGULA HORDE DOESN’T TOLERATE THAT SHIT. And good for us. I’m not sure what point either of you is trying to make, when you’re both agreeing with me so aggressively.
And yes, it’s probably mostly new commenters who say such crap. But to deny it ever gets said here…?
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what the commenter @4 meant, who was the antecedent/actor they are referencing in their last sentence.
8. Jafafa Hots,
I have wished for Scalia to drop dead from a heart attack.
Hj Hornbeck
More from your link:
So, uh… wow! He believes that singing in church exists. What a scoop!
Either you are or I am.
(so ‘nother words, yeah, we’re accidentally disagreeing. Or whatever it’s called)
JAL #45
QFT. The “Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth” model of justice does not work in the interest of human rights.
I almost said “civil society” in place of “human rights,” but I can’t make the equation that makes civilization somehow more just than non-civilization.
I have at times expressed a wish that certain people who have said horrible things about rape, get raped themselves. I now understand this is a bad thing to do, and I won’t anymore. OTOH, if “Dick” Cheney gets hit by a meteorite, you will find me at the local bar buying drinks for everyone.
consciousness razor @49:
He believes a bit more than that.
How much more he believes is tough to tell; is this a psychological trick, or a supernatural thing? Does “preposterous” mean “anything supernatural,” or “water from wine?” Harris is never to clear on those points, but either way he’s in the same ballpark as “an agnostic Pagan pantheist.”
lazinessevolved:
I do hope you learn from this. The commentariat here is remarkably well-tuned to the nuances of what we’re fighting for, and those nuances are critically important. No one here will think ill of you if you change and better yourself, and I think you’ll find it’s damned unlikely anyone here will “crow” about you being wrong. We’re not fighting this fight because of something as banal as being right; we’re in this fight because patriarchy and bigotry are fucking poison.
Speaking for myself I’d rather you stick around and learned and became an ally. That’s always the best outcome. Once you truly open your eyes to what the Horde here is about (and pay close attention to the regulars — they’re remarkable teachers) your head will explode and you’ll wonder how the hell you were such a blind asshat for so long. I know this because that’s exactly what I experienced here, and I am so grateful to this crowd for it.
To the writer of this letter:
From my perspective, you’ve nothing to regret.
Very true. The problem is much bigger than many people realize. That’s one of the things many of us have been trying to hammer home for years. Yes, religious influence in government affairs is pernicious and needs to be fought against (and contrary to what some people think, this is social justice advocacy). But what then? Is that it for the atheist movement? Is that the only concern? No, it’s not.
Atheists in the movement are also concerned with the effects of religious belief in other areas-from theists who use religion to justify atrocities against LGBT people and women to those who use their religious beliefs to justify beating their children. Why should the efforts of the atheist movement be so limited in scope when the pervasiveness of religion is so broad in scope? Moreover, once you realize that sexism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia and other social ills were not created by religion, why would you stop fighting against those problems just because religion isn’t present? Some people would say it’s ok to fight against misogyny when it comes to repressive theocracies, but where are they when misogyny erupts in the comic book industry or the video game culture? Why are they silent then? It’s still misogyny and it’s still harmful. I say that misogyny is a problem-period. No matter where and how it manifests. It needs to be fought regardless of the presence of religion.
There is nothing to be ashamed of. No one wants to be raped, and being glad that you have not been is not a bad thing.
Also, you do have the right to empathize with those that have been. As a human being with emotions and feelings, and as someone who wouldn’t want to be raped, it makes sense that you’d feel sympathetic toward those who have been the victims of sexual assault. For me, my empathy is what drives so much of what I say and do. I don’t need to have experienced death threats or be sexually assaulted to fight against those social ills. I just need my empathy and compassion.
I think there might have been one point in there somewhere. But as you say, it’s been overshadowed by the harassment and rape/death threats. GamerGate is not going to be able to distance itself from that crap.
Yeah, it is.
It’s also easier to attack the giant monster up ahead instead of confronting the darkness that lies within all of us. That’s one of the reasons many people are so defensive when criticized. Who sees themselves as a bad person? Who thinks they’re sexist/homophobic/racist? I daresay most people don’t think of themselves that way. But sexism, homophobia, and racism pervade society and you can’t help but absorb that shit. It isn’t until you take inventory of your beliefs that you can fully appreciate this (and even then, it’s not like you’ll magically stop saying racist/homophobic/sexist shit).
People also seem to think of social ills as manifesting in very specific, and limited ways. Sexism is denying women the right to vote or hold public office. Homophobia is telling gay people they can’t get married or that a lesbian couple can’t rent an apartment. Racism is telling black people that they have to sit at the back of the bus or drink from a separate water fountain.
But there’s so much more to those social ills than people often recognize.
Sexism is also about the opinions and beliefs you hold about women, such as the belief held by Sam Harris that atheism requires a “nurturing estrogen vibe” to be more appealing to women or the belief that teaching is a woman’s profession.
Homophobia is also about “ewww, those two guys are kissing” or denying hospital visitation rights to a gay couple because they aren’t married.
Racism is also about the assumption that black people are less intelligent than white people or that all asians are super intelligent bookworms.
These ills take on many forms and we absorb so much information about them that once you (generalized you) become aware of the biases and prejudices you hold, it’s an ongoing process to work to eliminate them. But you have to be willing to take that first introspective look and see the darkness within yourself before you’ll be able to recognize how deep this shit runs.
You might not think you qualify, but I think you do. We have people here that aren’t atheists. The issues we care about are not exclusively atheist ones (as can be seen from the pushback against social justice in the movement). Sure we might disagree on one issue (is there any kind of deity), but from your comments, it sounds like we’d agree on quite a bit more. When it comes to making the world a better place, and removing the influence of religion from the government, I think you’d fit right in.
I’m glad you find this blog and the commentariat beneficial.
I’m a lurker here, and I usually try to read the comments. I like the no-bullshit attitude that the regulars have here when it comes to calling out bigots and those defending them. As someone who’s transitioning, people out there that are willing to take the time to deconstruct bigotry and expose how stupid it is have my respect. Keep up the good work! :)
Pen @4:
I think the differences are bigger than that. You have to take a look at what is being challenged and the manner in which it is being challenged. Yes, we often get furious and we rhetorically eviscerate comments. To an outsider it may look vicious and uncalled for. But often, if you dig down and look at the issue in question, you can see the reason for the viciousness. Unlike those sexist and misogynistic douchebags, the viciousness around here generally (I won’t say *all* the time) serves the purpose of calling out social injustices and assholery.
I’ve seen this here on occasion and I don’t like it. I try to call it out when I see it. How do we advocate for a better world, where all humans are treated equitably…if we’re willing to say “I hope that someone suffers harm”? And I say this as someone who gets it. I understand the urge to say “I hope you have X happen to you”. But I fight that urge bc I feel it’s wrong to wish violence on others. I don’t want violence visited upon me, nor do I want it visited upon others.
****
FossilFishy @9:
It’s also something of a shot in the arm to hear that what we’ve been doing is beneficial to people.
****
lazinessevolved @20:
Actually, you shouldn’t let it roll over you. You ought to take Josh’s advice, yes. But you should also re-read that thread in a few days and soak in what people said to you bc the “crowing” served a purpose. You could benefit from understanding what that purpose is. If you let it roll off your back, you’re in danger of having no understanding of why you were criticized yesterday. Do your best to turn off that inner voice that screamed “I didn’t do that. I’m a good guy.” and listen to what people said. There are numerous explanations for why your words were harmful in that thread, but in the thick of things I think you were oblivious to them. Hopefully in time you can re-read things and come to understand and comprehend the points that were made.
****
People who complain about the tone here, and how vicious people can be ought to read azhael’s #35.
@4 Pen:
A fine line…? Seriously?
I think accuracy is a bigger deal than you’re admitting it is.
When “lonely dudes on the internet” espouse their MRA bullshit or band together to oppress women, they’re mostly acting in a reality-free manner. Because, hey, it’s not men that are most oppressed like those dipshits believe, and it’s not a matriarchy or “uppity bitches” doing the oppressing in some sort of feminist conspiracy. Those sort are entitled shit-heads with delusions of martyrdom and of rebelling against an oppressive system (when they’re actually just reinforcing the status quo that benefits them, and barely do shit to fight the actual oppression of men or anti-male cultural attitudes). Same thing with neo-Nazis and other crazed, racist groups. They think they’re fighting off oppressive foreigners and minorities out to get them, but they are actually just oppressing foreigners and minorities.
On the other hand? Accusing people of homophobia, or sexism, or transphobia, or racism, or classism? These are real things to fight against, with actual evidence of biases through every level of our society. Some are openly enshrined in active laws, in religious campaigns and persecution, not to mention obvious cultural attitudes, actual violence and abuse, things which are impossible to reasonably deny.
To say they’re barely different is wrong. A man becoming indignant because girls were mean to him once is vastly different than a woman becoming indignant because of the open and systemic devaluation of women in nearly every fucking country on the planet.
Sure, they’re both angry. Sure, they both are looking for support. But some causes are more valid than others to be angry about, or to need support for, or to be worth fighting for.
The tone is similar. Supporting people with similar views sounds the same regardless of your end cause, and yeah, everyone thinks they’re right, righteous, and totally justified to themselves, so they sell it, because to them it’s true.
But some people are ACTUALLY right. Content and reality matter. And feminists have a clearer view on reality than anti-feminists, on top of having better values. Same with anti-racists compared to racists. Some fury is far better justified than others (not to mention more measured and with less collateral damage, see: not using gendered insults, homophobic slurs, ableism, or looks in attacks).
And I know that can come off as sounding self-satisfied and self-rationalized (“can’t the other side make the same argument, ‘but we’re right!’, to justify their tirades and campaigns?”), but evidence matters, and that’s why I cite reality. Because what else can we judge by? Certainly not our mere moral certitude.
lazinessisevolved:
This point has been made before, but since you clearly missed it the first thousand times, I’ll make it again.
The first time someone asked me the question, I answered nicely.
The second time someone asked me the question, I answered nicely.
The third time someone asked me the question, I answered nicely.
The fourth time someone asked me the question, I referenced back the original three times.
The fifth time someone asked me the question, I referred again back to the original three times.
The sixth time someone asked me the question, I referred again back to the original three times.
The seventh time someone asked me the question, I got a little cold but answered it again.
The eighth time someone asked me the question, I got a little cold but answered it again.
The ninth time someone asked me the question, I got a little cold but answered it again.
The tenth time someone asked me the question, I pointed out I’d already answered it six times and encouraged them to read the previous answers.
The eleventh time someone asked me the question, I pointed out I’d already answered it six times and encouraged them to read the previous answers.
The twelfth time someone asked me the question, I pointed out I’d already answered it six times and encouraged them to read the previous answers.
The thirteenth time someone asked me the question, I got a bit sarcastic but answered it again.
The fourteenth time someone asked me the question, I got a bit sarcastic but answered it again.
The fifteenth time someone asked me the question, I got a bit sarcastic but answered it again.
The sixteenth time someone asked me the question, I asked why they hadn’t read any of the nine times I’d already answered the question.
The seventeenth time someone asked me the question, I asked why they hadn’t read any of the nine times I’d already answered the question.
The eighteenth time someone asked me the question, I asked why they hadn’t read any of the nine times I’d already answered the question.
.
.
.
.
The hundred and first time someone asked me the question, I provided a list of links showing where the answer could be found
The hundred and second time someone asked me the question, I pointed out that just two posts ago, I provided a list of links that answered the question
.
.
.
.
.
The five hundred and fourth time someone asked me the question, I linked them to the list of links helpfully compiled on the website that came up first when someone typed the question into google
.
.
.
The thousand and twelfth time someone asked me the the question, I pointed out it had been answered many many times already and asked if they were too lazy to do a bit of homework or just too willfully stupid to comprehend the answer.
.
.
.
The five thousand and thirty-second time someone asked me the question, I told them I was sick of dealing with over-privileged, misogynistic trolls who clearly weren’t asking the question in good faith, being that the answers were all over the damn place.
.
.
.
The ten thousand and ninety-third time someone asked me the question, my response consisted of two words, the second of which was ‘off’.
.
.
.
I’ve now been asked the question for the hundred thousand and forty-fifth time, and once again, someone is again purporting to be genuinely surprised I’m not absolutely thrilled at the thought of taking time out of my day to educate them on this easily available information while being polite, courteous, and absolutely understanding of my dehumanization and objectification because if I’m not, they can’t possibly ‘process’ the answer and therefore it’s all my fault when their bad behavior continues. And I’m mean and attacking them and they are all butthurt because I wasn’t ‘nice enough’ to explain to them ‘properly’.
This letter demonstrates to me why calls for civility are so unhelpful. When an issue matters, really matters, there are always people involved who are suffering. And people express their feelings about their own suffering or the suffering of others in different ways, but most of the time, “civility” is just a way to make a comment devoid of emotional expression. It’s a way to make people think we can just say “Oh yeah, agree to disagree, no one is hurt either way.”
But when people are able to express their emotions on a serious topic, it usually comes out as anger or hurt or a mix of the two, and that depends on the individual. What I see in this letter is that a person who feels hurt doesn’t always feel free or safe to express that. So if you’re arguing in a forum, and you have a heap of righteous anger loaded on you, you can bet there are a lot of people hurt by what you’re saying. The angry people calling you out are trying to show you that. They are trying to show you how your views deeply affect not only them, but also a lot of people who feel so dismissed or hurt by what you believe that they are not willing or able to engage you.
—-This letter demonstrates to me why calls for civility are so unhelpful.—
I would have stopped punching you in the face, but you didn’t say please….
Dear LW:
Oh no. No, no, no, don’t ever feel ashamed! I hope you live a very long, happy life with never knowing, personally, what sexual assault or rape is like. That’s a goal we can all work toward, that all people feel safe and will never know that experience. You have empathy, so I know you feel for those of us who have had those experiences, and it’s appreciated, always.
I want that to change.
I suppose the dictionary atheists would have a problem with you. I would not.
That seems qualified all over to me. I care deeply about those things too.
lazinessevolved, here’s a wealth of reading for you. This is all 101 stuff, stuff we know inside and out. The sooner you get all that, the better: http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Sexism_Education_101_Link_Dump
And some more links which I haven’t appended to the 101 yet:
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/03/feminism-101-helpful-hints-for-dudes.html
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/
http://tigerbeatdown.com/2011/10/11/on-blogging-threats-and-silence/
There is power in acknowledging when we are wrong.
As much as I complain about it, I’m still reading this blog because it challenged me so much, and forced me to review my beliefs more than any other source.
@OP: the people here are probably more committed to social justice than to godlessness.
I’d like to join the add myself to those that would welcome you here.
*I’d like to add myself to those that welcome you here.
Dear Letter Writer
Unless you know that you’re a masochist and have found yourself in a safe environment with people who understand consent and treat it very seriously, do NOT ever wish to be raped or harmed. Please stop that.
–
Me, I’m a polytheist pagan and I started outreading PZ because I really like cephalopods, tangled banks and zebrafish. The atheists here happen to be smart and interesting and if they happen to be wrong (either multiply by refusing to believe in each and every god) or categorically (not believing in gods in general) ah well.
Among all the samsara and aboandon illusions of life, many of the atheists here would make posts about “how x religionist could be so self-unaware” Now they are in satori about how unaware they were about religion being the only cause of this, and so are you.
Good for all y’all.
As a recent lurker-turned-poster, I do admit I was intimidated by The Horde upon my first readings of Pharyngula. I’d read of people’s experiences and think “Sheesh, I’ve had it made compared to this poster; I have no room to talk, so I probably shouldn’t. And while I can’t think of a specific instance, I’d see someone say or ask something seemingly innocent and get smack down hard for it. It’d make me wince.
But then as I kept reading and my awareness became more attuned, I realized those “innocent” remarks were loaded with bias or triggers or were part of some horrible script constantly parroted by . Those smackdowns were deserved. And when there was genuine misunderstandings, they eventually got resolved.
Kid Cthulhu has spoken.
Ugh, I really need to get a better connection. Apparently “preview” and “post” are the same when you’re system is lagging.
Apologies for my previous unreadable post…
Thanks for speaking, and welcome.
I need to chime in here with my thanks to the commentariat here for helping to open my eyes back in the bad old days of porcupine memes. I used to be a privilege-blind “post-feminist” until I put my foot in my mouth on a Pharyngula comment thread and the intensity of the pushback I was getting encouraged me to engage in some self-examination. At the same time, I was helpfully pointed at Feminism 101.
Though I think I probably needed a more remedial course.
I’m sure I still have some bad ideas. But at least now I’m looking at them and have some of the tools to help me find them.
Looking *for* them. Why do I never catch these things in preview?
seachange @65:
I’m going to be charitable and assume that you just misread the OP. Nothing LW said hints at a wish to be raped.
This is saying “I feel I don’t have the right to speak up and empathize with people who have been raped bc I haven’t been”.
Good letter. No. Great letter.
Writing and articles that come from places of great emotion are how/why I got through my uber-logical phase. Emotion is such an important part of being alive, being biological creatures, being social.
Empathy as a feature of public opinion and policy would make the world a much better place.
seachange @65:
Tony is right in his #71 about the first paragraph of your comment.
The rest is off-topic for this post. Please allow me to introduce you to the Thunderdome.
Jedibear, I have question for you in the Lounge, if you don’t mind.
LW, thanks for writing this.
seachange @ 65:
I recommend that you apologize, and take the lower half of your body out of your mouth. The letter writer said they felt ashamed of not having the same experience as others here. There was no fucking wishing involved. Also, don’t be speaking up about kink, either, because it looks like you know enough to be dangerous, which is not a good thing.
jedibear:
I remember. I’m really glad you’ve changed those things.
LW, that was a beautiful letter. I read it yesterday, before there were any comments, but as a very recent delurker it wasn’t really for me to say anything.
I’m very glad you wrote. I share a few things you wrote about, mainly never having been raped, and not feeling I’d be welcome here or by atheists generally, because of my beliefs.
Which leads me to say to the Horde: I love the comments in this thread about the welcome and how it’s NOT a case of atheist-in, anyone else shut up, here. I don’t mean atheists who’re also being assholes getting a free pass; it’s never been like that: just not-atheists being side-eyed.
It was good to see that spelled out again. That’s the sort of big tent I’d want to walk into.
I hope you delurk, LW. I’d like to read your comments here.
Oh, and seconding estraven @21. You’re very welcome at We Hunted the Mammoth! I’m one of the mods there. It’s all about mocking misogyny*; it’s not atheist, theist, or anything else in affiliation (we have a real mixture of beliefs there, too).
*also kitties, recipes, bra sizing (very handy for driving trolls away), cute animals generally, music, games, kitties, movies, books, kitties, and did I mention kitties? Off topic is on topic there. :)
LW, thank you so much for writing that. Sometimes (lately has been a long string of those times) when I’m so discouraged I can’t even read through the threads, much less try to contribute. You’ve inspired me.
Dear letter writer;
I want people like you to be in my community.
Love,
An atheist.
If had a habit of posting instead of lurking, I would have been a chew toy for the Horde once upon a time. I have been a shitty person, I will likely be one again. I’ve taken my lumps from the Horde vicariously, I’ve seen terrible opinions and attitudes I’ve held torn apart when posted by others. And I learned from it, and I try to be better. As usual, one of the commenters has said it better than I ever could, so I’ll just quote FossilFishy @#9…
PZ, you’re an awesome guy, but it’s the comments that keep me coming back for more. I love the Horde.
To the letter writer..
I’m sorry that the atheist movement isn’t welcoming to you. That is a serious problem that we must fix. But I am very glad that you are here, and I would be thrilled to hear your voice some more. I’m curious, and smack me if this is a derail, but what is a Pagan pantheist? (Google turns up a bit of confusing, sometimes conflicting information)
LW, that was a very nice letter. I share your sentiments.
To new lurkers who are afraid of becoming chew toys. I would say start out in the lounge just chit chatting if you want to get to know people. Aside from that, just read read read! I think most of the people who get attacked here just jump in with commenting, saying really dumb things, without having much of a clue what the community is like. If I had started commenting when I started lurking I’m sure I would have put my foot in my mouth and gotten hell for it. I have learned so very much just from reading the comments and following the links. Also, I’m no regular, but I would advise against saying you have “lurked for years” and then acting shocked and appalled when you get aggressive push back to dumb comments.
That is my tl;dr advice from a fellow lurker.
Athywren@25:
Thank you for that. I was trying to express something similar, and the words weren’t coming. I’ve been through much of the same kind of feelings in helping my wife deal with things that happened in her past. The same feeling of guilt, combined with helplessness and rage at the assholes that did those things to her.
So, thank you.
And to the letter writer: Thank you for what you said, and take these words to heart. Even just knowing that there are people out there that are being reached makes it easier to speak up, and I say that from a position with all the privileges of being cis-white-hetero and moderately well off (meaning…time for a donation to Anita).
You know, I still haven’t read all of the Feminism 101 links (I have read about half). I need to remedy that.
Suido@76:
That’s a great insight too. I used to be much the same way. For many years, my pet online cause was church-state separation (I lived in the midwest at the time, and it was a daily fight). I don’t even remember the argument (online) topic, but someone was arguing for a horrendously morally bankrupt position, and used the ‘argument from emotion’ logical fallacy. That’s what finally made it click for me. Yes, it’s a logical fallacy, but that doesn’t make it any less true. *bing*….light came on. I got better. ;-)
I, too, am a lurker/infrequent poster on Pharyngula. I’ve thanked the Horde before, for being willing to speak out and stick up for the rights of others. Confronting injustice and inequality is hard, but the only way to make the world more just is *speak out*.
I spoke out today.
I went to HR at work to complain about a conversation held by *the owner of my company* in our breakroom at lunch, where he was making fun of trans* people, using very demeaning and dehumanizing language. I didn’t have the courage to speak up in the moment, but I *did* speak up later. We don’t have the best corporate culture, but our HR lady (also our general manager) agreed with me. What he said was hurtful and wrong, and she will take him on for it.
I spoke out today because of the people on FTB, bloggers and commenters alike. They have inspired me so much. What you guys say makes a difference to and for others.
Thank you.
2kittehs @81:
No need to feel that way. Whether one has been here 6 years, 6 months, or 6 days does not matter. Compassion, empathy, a desire to help others, progressive or Humanist values (even if you eschew those particular labels).
Those are the kinds of things that matter.
And you have those things.
MissEla
Good for you.
Every bit helps.
MissEla
Yes! This is what it takes to change a culture. You can have all the policies in place, every top down instrument imaginable, and nothing will change unless people speak up. It can be as formal as going to an HR person, or as casual as saying “Really?” in a scornful tone when casual bigotry is displayed. Culture is made up of the actions of the individuals within it so each instance of an individual acting positively really does make a difference.
Shorter me: go you!
Tony!
Awww, thank you!
::blushes::
::shuffles feet::
::falls over::
MissEla, that’s great that you did that. Go you! (And I would think, quite likely to get a better result than calling him out on the spot – this way he might be able to hear it, as it hopefully won’t get muddied by his urge not to lose face in front of his subordinates which might lead to his doubling down. )
lazinessevolved:
Do you still believe that “threesomes” at conferences are the problem, rather than sexual harassment and assault and the covering up of same?
MissEla @ 87, thank you for speaking up! That will make a difference, and that difference will ripple out. Thank you so much.
SallyStrange @ 93
I’m hoping for a Lounge/Thunderdome thread soon where i can poke my nose in and speak to some of the things people have told me these last few days…didn’t want my apology diluted with a bunch of argument afterwards, because the LW deserved a heartfeet apology without qualifications and bullshit (plus I didn’t want this to became about me). Short answer: I made too light of the serious concerns in a hyperbolic attempt to shift the discussion. There are far worse issues than individual male behaviors at conferences and the like which need serious fixing. I am just at my heart a forgiving sort of person and that people make mistakes while still being good people, so when something happens that calls a person’s character and commitment to a cause into doubt, we should be cautious but direct in addressing them. People who believe they are being painted by a broad brush on issues usually struggle to get back to being objective and hearing what is being said to them, so I think there is value in trying to correct such people as opposed to simply ejecting them. And yes, I am aware that it’s been tried in almost every case I can think of…at least at first.
Anyway, next chatty chat thread. See ya there!
You can access the current Thunderdome/Lounge threads by clicking the available links in the profile section (amongst the stuff on the left with the other links). I know, i’m so good at explaining myself….
lazinessevolved @95:
You don’t need to wait to comment in the Lounge or the Thunderdome. They are both off topic areas where anyone can post about anything at any time. You won’t be interrupting any conversations.
I will say that given the nature of the discussions you’ve been involved in, as well as any possible lingering frustration on the part of some people (I know I have a few reservations myself, even as some of my frustration toward you has mellowed), you might want to comment in the Thunderdome. The only rule in the Lounge is that commenters must be kind to one another. I’m not saying that people definitely will be rude to you, but the possibility is there.
lazinessevolved:
They are open threads. The only things which would stop you discussing matters are not in any flattering – there’s cowardice, hypocrisy, and the ever favourite, lying. If you want to discuss these matters, honestly, the time is now. Also, an OP which names you, I think that’s an appropriate thread.
If what you have to say, and the topic is mild and innocuous, the Lounge is OK. For anything questionable, take it to the Thunderdome. Speak your mind.