I know I do. When the minimal basics of simple social interactions have to be spelled out, you know you’re in trouble.
I say that as someone who has always been a shy and cautious wallflower, too. If I understood this stuff all along, and you didn’t, you’ve really got a problem.
Of course, an alternative hypothesis is that you’re hanging out with a bunch of predatory assholes who are pretending to be unable to understand social mores so they can violate them.
Another thing that bugs me: if you’re bragging about how you feel safe at an event, so what? I’ve always felt safe in my travels, because I’m a cocky brash guy who has never been seriously threatened in my life, and because most of the events I attend are safe — going to an academic conference is not like walking into a biker bar. To deny someone you want on your side even the slightest reassurance of security because you have to preen about your privileges just tells me that you lack the slightest modicum of empathy.
I see JJ Ramsay has commented at Greta’s, showing that he is one of those people who needs everything spelled out for him.
While I agree with Greta (asking for/consenting to simple polite gestures is easily telegraphed through body language), you’ve hit it right on the money PZ– this argument of “I don’t wanna ask for a hug! Wah!” is at best derailing from the real issue (harassment) and at worst the mark of someone who also doesn’t hear the word “no”.
In other words, bitchez ain’t shit.
*girds loins for upcoming onslaught of whiney d00dz*
Ok, so I think I’ve got it for handshakes and hugs. Next, can I have, ‘Slapping stranger’s arses as they walk past’?. I’m still unsure of the social norm there
I have a colleague who works in a different agency (she’s a liaison between my employer and that agency.) I haven’t seen her in about a month. I was visiting that agency with another colleague who’d just met her.
After the meeting, we were saying our goodbyes, she did that ‘do you want to hug’ motion, we both accepted, and we were fine with it.
Simple, no communication needed besides ‘want to hug’ motion, and no one was harmed by it.
I assume the alternate hypothesis. I’ve never seen in all of my real life experience this raging epidemic of adult social butterflies who also “can’t” read social cues. Those of us who were late bloomers know the way both sides behave, and there’s not a whole lot of mixing. The ones who don’t read cues well and don’t really get the rules, also don’t casually go up to people for talking, let alone touching. They’ve been burned too many times for that.
It is all just dishonest maneuvering, from players who are playing that “I have no game” game.
Katherine must be living on Planet Obvious, while the rest of us are trapped on Planet Disingenuous.
It is strange how some people do not understand the rules around handshakes/hugs but presumably do understand the rules about not shitting in the corner. Which makes me think the not understanding is quite deliberate.
Quoting Giliell from Greta’s comment thread :
(source)
This, so much.
Kat! How dare you disprove Teh Whiney D00dz™ with your everyday social interactions!
heck, I’m dense, and I do the verbal “Want a hug?” AND the gesture.
Who are these people who are so clueless they can’t interpret ‘about to hug’ gestures, but still have enough supposed sensitivity to complain about how awkward ASKING must be?
False dichotomy. The knowledge and behavioral sets are not exclusive, and there may be overlap even within the same individual.
— TWZ
Every time I see these posts, I have to stop and ask, “Are we really having this conversation?” It’s like explaining the importance of using knives and forks to a 10-year old- by this point, you might not agree with it, but you should certainly understand it. You shouldn’t throw a tantrum every time I scold you for eating with your hands, or when I establish: “If you’re going to sit with us and have dinner, you’re going to eat like a civilized human being,” as a rule.
So, hi. I started out as a social maladjusted nerd with no real sense of boundaries and an attitude of entitlement that led me to act as if the entire world revolved around me. And then I grew up.
That would seem to suggest you agree with PZ’s hypothesis that the ignorance is feigned.
I‘m so sorry that I do not want to be touched. Yes it’s completely my fault that I left you standing there, looking kind of foolish with your arms outstretched. It certainly was an indication of my judgment of your character.
I don’t like spontaneous touching. Very rare exceptions. But usually not in public and not with strangers. When my teachers would stand behind me and try to touch my shoulder I would lower my shoulders. It had nothing to do with them at all, but my own sense of having a safe zone.
It isn’t detrimental to me to forgo what other people see as simple sentimentality or sociability (as they see it). If someone touches me and I don’t want them to then they’re the ones fully in the anti-social part of my personal Social Venn diagram.
All their talk of ‘filling forms in triplicate’ before consensual activity takes place makes me feel like an outlier – that it’s so odd and weird of me to want an indication of the intent to touch so that I can nip that in the bud, so that I can feel comfortable. Really, it just screams narcissism that they would think their would-be feelings of rejection trump my desire to feel at ease.
Not wanting to be touched is not equal to not wanting to interact socially. It’s just a boundary like any other. Sorry if that’s an inconvenience but get over it.
I’m another of those “I don’t want strangers, or anyone who isn’t someone I like a bunch, to touch me” types. I accept handshakes as a necessary part of social interaction, but unless we are good friends, I do not want you to embrace me. Which made the dozen years I lived in Miami quite awkward, as they have adopted the (European? South American?) affectation of the kiss on each cheek. Often it ends up being just a brush of cheeks, theirs to yours, but it really gets up in your personal space. Once I realized it was really just a cultural thing, and not people randomly assaulting me, I learned to tolerate it. But everywhere else I have lived, contact requires consent.
What Beatrice said.
I’m socially awkward. I never really developed socialization skills until fairly late in my life, for a variety of reasons. Some of my friends are socially awkward.
The idea of a socially awkward person coming up and repeatedly violating someone’s personal space seems insane to me. Now, it might happen accidentally if the person isn’t thinking of that, at that particular moment. But socially awkward people are not going to run up and demand hugs. It’s just not going to happen. Most of them are probably in the camp where they’d rather not be hugged anyway.
I was about to criticize you because not everyone is an expert at social interactions but holy christ on a cracker that is some basic stuff. Who doesn’t know this? I guess only trolls who have no basis for their argument pretend not to understand this.
Ogawd. I remember the years when people were under the influence of Leo “Dr Love” Buscaglia’s programs on PBS and were lunging to give hugs to everyone they encountered. It was a creepy, personal-space-invading time. (And I don’t think that’s what Buscaglia meant, anyway.) Sheesh. It’s not supposed to be that complicated.
Just to get this elephant mentioned, there are people who have trouble understanding social cues. It’s called autism and people with mild forms may be unrecognized. That being said, the argument is still BS for at least two reasons:
1. People with autism can learn. Don’t know instinctively when someone is making a “I want a hug” or “I want a handshake” gesture? Learn the signs consciously. For example, when meeting someone for the first time, you’re supposed (in the US anyway) to look them in the eye and smile. But you should also glance down to see if they’re holding out their hand. If they are, shake it. If they aren’t, you’re perfectly within your rights to hold your hand out a bit and see if they want to shake it. But not to complain if they don’t.
2. People who really have asperger’s aren’t social butterflies who are spending all their time “awkwardly” asking strangers for hugs. Most ASD people don’t want hugs from strangers anyway and don’t have much interest in hanging out at bars looking to hook up when a vibrator is a much more reliable way to fulfill one’s sexual urges. It MIGHT happen, especially if their friends or relatives drag them there, but they’re more likely to give up quickly and go home at first refusal than to hang around whining about how they were just misunderstood and deserve a hug.
3. The average person with Asperger’s is more likely to want a rule about asking because it provides a knowable rule instead of an unchartable morass of social conventions not comprehensible to the average aspie.
In short, the “socially awkward guys” who just can’t figure out how to get a hug when there are rules about sexual harassment are probably lazy or uncaring neurotypicals.
@ Matt Penfold #7
Absolutely, Matt. I don’t think there’s any commenter on any of the numerous threads on this subject that has espoused the ‘we have to ask before we shake hands now’ bullshit and actually believed it themselves. It’s derailing.
And if they do actually believe it, then surely they haven’t read anything that’s been said.
Surely the shy and cautious wallflower is precisely the kind of person who will be MOST aware of personal space, social protocols and the potential for misunderstanding? When you’re perpetually afraid of getting it wrong, and naturally err on the side of caution, you pay a lot of attention to these things.
Don’t confuse us socially anxious nerds for anti-social personalities. As someone with social anxiety, I tend to avoid large groups and social interactions, and I don’t initiate hugs. So, while I don’t really get these social rules a lot of the time, this advise isn’t really targeted at me.
Antisocial behavior is different – it implies a lack of empathy. An antisocial person could enjoy the interactions at a conference, but would break all these social customs because they don’t consider the feelings of others.
I was at the American Mensa annual gathering last week. Even a national convention of people notorious for being anti-social, clumsy nerds didn’t need this level of education. For many years, we’ve used a system of “hug dots” on convention name tags: green=ready and willing, yellow=please ask, and red=thanks but don’t. It seems to work out well.
Out of curiosity over the last few months of brouhaha, I asked the chief of security (a woman, as was about half the security detail) if there had been any problems related to sexual harassment or related unwanted attention. The only incident she had heard of was a new Mensan unfamiliar with the system: the offender got schooled quickly about the dots, and security knew about it only because someone was standing nearby when it happened.
Hug sign? Handshake gesture? Boy howdy do you people to the wrong events with mobs of anti-social, clumsy nerds who need everything spelled out literally for them.
Why I went to an event last week and performed oral sex on 1500 or so close, personal recent acquaintances…or thereabouts…as we met. Isn’t that normal? Don’t you evil Feminazis try to stop me giving people I meet a right good tonguing.
It’s perfectly normal to walk up to random people at an event and without asking wrestle them to the floor, aim crotchwards, and perform an intimate act upon their person with no more than an assumed by your leave and anyone who tries to even begin to disagree is infringing on my rights as a man, a human being, and an American. Even, and I want this absolutely clear, though I am not an American.
Asking before hugs? Whatever next? Wearing clothes and not sporting a permanent erection with a moderate sign attached that reads “Here are my genitals, please service them”?
You prudes and wimmiscum needs to lighten up. And also get me a sammich, beer and possibly a copy of “Sexist Bigfoot Sceptic Monthly” so I can remind you that real sceptics doubt bigfoot, privilege, the patriarchy, and whether or not women are real people.
Now hug me and fuck off. HUG MEEEEEE!
Louis
The whole “socially awkward” gambit is yet another desperate attempt to support the FTBullies myth. By insisting on basic human decency, we’re aparrently bullying those tragic individuals who just don’t know that upskirt photography is wrong.
Exactly. Social interaction is a skill, to a certain extent, like any other. If I know I’m a beginner level swimmer I don’t dive into the deep end of the pool.
The problems are more likely to be caused by those who are 100%convinced that what they’re doing when they interact with people is correct and welcome.
I usually apologize profusely for accidentally brushing against someone. People have all kinds of issues, but I’m a bit suspicious of those who claim that their habit of intruding into other people’s personal space without asking is due to social awkwardness. Social awkwardness implies that one is scared of doing something wrong in social situations and, while that can result in awkward situations where someone tries so hard to act right that they of course end up failing, it usually comes down to hanging back due to that fear. I can imagine some socially awkward people being a bit too free with their hugs because they misunderstood the way people do the whole hugging thing, but it can’t be the majority. I’m not buying that suddenly most men are socially awkward and in that category of people who try too hard and become intrusive.
You know, this “asking for a hug” thing isn’t really all that complex. I had lunch with Ms Daisy Cutter last Sunday and when she left, I held out my arms and said, “hug?” She accepted, we hugged, and it was nice.
Honestly, that’s why I think this is a huge fucking derailing tactic and nothing more. Plenty of people do respect others’ personal space without even thinking of it and plenty more will conform to the rules when they learn that they’re making other people uncomfortable. The nitpickers are looking for any and every reason why anti-harassment policies won’t work because they don’t want to have to examine their own behavior.
Another thing to consider is that cultural norms are different everywhere, which is important when events are drawing people from all over the world. We Canadians are pretty standoffish; we don’t tend to go in for touchy-feeliness in a big way. This is why some Americans, usually from the southeast, think we’re unfriendly, whereas Midwesterners tend to think we are friendly and very polite.
As someone who generally is pretty physically standoffish with strangers, I really enjoyed my business trip to Jerusalem, since in a business context, people rarely even shake hands. (The religious people generally won’t shake hands with people of the opposite sex — some do, some don’t — and not shaking hands generally seems to be the norm there, which is cool with me.)
I’m always wondering, how long did it take for them to learn the meaning of a nod and a headshake?
I am reminded (all too often these days) of this: Mythcommunication: It’s Not That They Don’t Understand, They Just Don’t Like The Answer.
The post discusses a paper by Celia Kitzinger and Hannah Frith (Just Say No? The Use of Conversation Analysis In Developing A Feminist Perspective On Sexual Refusal, Discourse & Society 1999 10:293) which concludes:
That doesn’t solve it all either, though – maybe you want to hug the first 10 people you meet, but the 11th gives off a creepy vibe and you really don’t want to. Even huggy touchy people don’t necessarily want to hug and touch everybody.
Exactly. And for people on the autistic spectrum, usually by the time they reach adulthood (because these are all adults complaining, yes?) even if they haven’t had professional training in how to deal with personal space, as mentioned above they’ve most likely been burned enough times to have learned what actions often lead to negative responses.
@carlie #32:
Sooo, you wear a yellow dot. Then, you can freely hug all the green-dot people you want, and any creepers you don’t hug… and they have to ask… and you say no…. right?
Here is a social interaction tip spelled out:
At a recent panel in Minnesota you said to another panelist ‘you sucked’.
You then accused him of moving a venue to a church. When he said he didn’t move it, that your students put it there you ignored the correction.
Here is a social interaction tip spelled out:
“Thank you for correcting me, I am sorry I accused you without knowing the facts.”
So, that’s one of the usual “PZ did something wrong therefore we can ignore everything else” posts…
Giliell,
Plus, acting like a jerk =/= inappropriate touching. I wonder if ludicrous has a really real real point or if they just feel like wanking off and feeling superior.
In Bizarro World/TAM2012, that counts as a slam-dunk rational argument against the entire concept of feminism.
I’m put in mind of a friend that I’ve had to cut out of my life, who would absolutely not understand about asking before touching. She was a queer woman, but very much had the mindset of a Nice Guy. She would touch without asking, forcing hugs and clinging on me even when I told her that unwanted touches were triggering for me. The ultimate was when she “joked” at a party that she needed to get me drunk so I’d have sex with her.
She was exceedingly socially awkward and didn’t have the most basic grasp of human interaction, and yet was still pushy and touchy and inappropriate.
So if there could be a woman like that, I see absolutely no reason why a man–already pre-soaked in male privilege–couldn’t as well.
But you know what? Her social awkwardness and inability to grasp social rules and cues didn’t make her creepy behavior okay. If you have a problem that makes you incapable of not hurting people–and unwanted “friendly” contact can absolutely be a form of harm in some circumstances–that does not mean people are obligated to submit to you. It’s your problem. I am very sorry you have this problem, but it doesn’t mean you’re allowed to force contact on people.
@carlie #32 – I believe the dot system was implemented because Mensa has a higher-than-background number of people with autism spectrum; it is meant to augment social cues, not replace them. We also make it clear that green dots are NOT an invitation to anything else, and people who have been around for a while are pretty good about educating newbies.
We do occationally have problems, but it has largely eliminated the excuses for not being respectful of personal space.
ludicrous, do you maintain a list of minor faux pas, so that you can make that perfect bizarre whiny post when the opportunity partially arises?
Have I mentioned all the many ways in which I am glad you are alive?
Handshake etiquette may vary. I notice that amongst many folk it is a sign of being sociable and a good sport. It is automatic to offer and recieve handshakes.
However, where I come from handshakes are a sign of amity and trust. And they will not be offered to or recieved from people who are insufficiently trusted.
I have found this policy to be offensive to some. Particularly that particularly oily form of foe who loves to paint him/herself as so collegial.
So, Elevatorgate happened a year ago and this “conversation” is still going on? Really? Aren’t we supposed to be talking about skepticism and humanism and rationality instead?
Is “guys, don’t do that” so hard to understand? If it is, we’re doomed. Might as well go back to church, where the core (religion) might be a lot of nonsense, but at least the flock knows how to behave.
I’m being sarcastic, of course…(disclaimer for the nuance-challenged)
Bingo.
I mean, how many more people with actual Asperger’s/autism spectrum/some other form of social interaction issues have to speak up and say “Hey, I know I have this problem so it’s even less of an excuse“? If one truly doesn’t understand social cues, one learns. To know that one has a problem and then refusing to fix it, demanding that others accommodate them instead, makes them an asshole.
Here is yet another social interaction tip:
Unless you enjoy the spectacle of “freethinkers” who know nothing about you but feel free to read your psyche, pull shit out of their asses to throw at you etc. don’t suggest that PZ take his own advice.
Is this the kind of rational discussion you want on FTB? Pissing games are not amusing to anyone but the players. They turn most people off.
Yes PZ is very confrontational and does it well and it is useful but it is most effective when done sparingly. Throwaway, attention getting insults such as I cited are usually not helpful.
A lot of this used to be, in more formal and well organized times, handled by strict social norms. Used to be that such things were taught in various forms. Classes in etiquette and comportment were pretty common for families seeking to advance socially and finishing schools were the norm for upper class children.
There is something to be said for such formalities. They do set up standards as to what is allowed and what is expected. It also advances the cause of rebels. It is much harder to be a rebel if there are few, if any, lines to cross. If everyone knows where the lines are it is easier to gauge when, and how far, you are crossing them and both the rebel and the surrounding society can differentiate between simple rebellion and an actual threat.
Similarly while the rules of etiquette often enforce sexism they can also establish a set of bright line standards by which transgressions can be judged.
Speaking as a person who graduated from university without ever having kissed a woman, much less had sex or dated, I can confirm that multiple burns from social clumsiness made me EXTREMELY cautious of initiating physical and social interaction.
The Gropers and the Clutchers and the Cope-a-Feelers are NOT socially awkward; they are self-centred predators who view other people, and their needs and boundaries, with undisguised contempt.
And they ought to be treated as such.
One more note: my son is autistic. He deeply desires social interaction and social recognition, and, just now turned a teenager, is having a difficult time. So I am doing for him what was never done for me — I’m showing him explicitly the constellation of eye contact, smiles, and intentional and receptive body language that I didn’t learn until I was in my thirties.
And BTW, because he is lonely and socially awkward he MOST DEFINITELY does not do any invading of personal space. Of anybody.
For all the “clueless”, who are in fact devious, unempathic social manipulators: fuck you fucking fuckers.
Ludicrous,
And that has to do with inappropriate touching how? You know– the actual topic of this conversation and not your personal grudge.
The answer, of course, is that they’re all disingenuous liars.
Take ludicrous’ false dichotomy and tu quoque up there. Who argues like that?
Ludicrous is ludicrous. That was Stedman; I actually addressed his complaint by pointing out that these students had looked to him for suggestions on how to better engage the community. He was there to lead in his own self-proclaimed domain of expertise…and as it turns out, he’s got nothin’.
ludicrous: You forgot to say, ” . . . and Michael Moore is fat!”
I must say, however, your choice of nym is inspired; and even though you may think your nym is smart, sarcastic, and ironic, we insteand applaud it and snicker for its unintentional brutal honesty.
Save it.
Again with the assertions that what one writes does not indicate anything about them.
If that is true, then you assholes similarly don’t know anything about most of the people on FtB, either.
So you have a beef against PZ. Everyone who isn’t PZ isn’t PZ.
You opened with a derailing, fallacy-filled remark. That’s most certainly not the kind of rational discussion I want on FtB. You’re the fuck up here. Leave, if that’s how you do things.
Yawn. They pissed you off and you trolled. How is that PZ’s fault?
I put rules of etiquette in a completely different category. Those that come to mind don’t have much or anything to do with things like personal space, they are a bunch of rules made up to distinguish educated from the uneducated, rich from the poor. At least to me, they are primarily a classist invention made to put people in their place, whether the poor of any sex, or women whose actions are severely restricted by traditional rules of etiquette. If we would would want to put respect of personal boundaries in the language of etiquette, we would have to seriously revamp what etiquette is.
Ah, liducrous is known tone troller and ergo fuckwitted idjit. Enough for me.
If someone ignores the social cues indicating disinterest (including saying, “NO”), and gropes, fondles, pinches, squeezes, hugs, kisses, or otherwise touches me in an unwelcome way, I’m going to shove a sharp stick into his eye. Other creatures learn via conditioning, and I know it will help these poor, socially inept d00dz.
But we all have to do it, or the conditioning won’t work.
[/only partly snarky]
That was Stedman? Is that opening comment of his typical?
That was the most common type of trolling. Fallacious thinking like that is what rationalists aim to minimise, individually and in populations.
Beatrice:
I would say that this is an admirable goal, but lord knows we’d end up with a bunch of whiny douches that don’t want to change their behavior.
Oh, my mistake. I misread what you wrote, PZ. I thought that seemed atypical of Stedman.
stardust:
Ok, I am apparently nuance-challenged, because I don’t know which part(s) of your post you are intending to be read sarcastically. Is it just the bit where you advocate a return to church? Or do you also mean the first bit where you equate an ongoing problem in pretty much all of western society that humanists and rationalists have been grappling with for quite some time with a single highly-visible example of the problem?
Can you clarify?
Thanks!
I like Miss Manners’ view if etiquette, which is that its main purpose ought to be to make other people more comfortable. Sure, there’s a “proper” fork to use and whatnot, but true etiquette is to obviously not notice when people make little mistakes like that. Also, etiquette does not mean that one avoids conflict; she often tells people that they are free to confront the person being a lout and also to contact anyone else needed to make the unwanted attention stop. (she has fallen through on a couple of things, but is usually pretty good)
To carry your distinction between socially anxious and antisocial persons further:
I think those using feigned ignorance of basic social cues to excuse assault are the ones who are demonstrating antisocial behaviour.
Following on dianne #19, in point of fact one of the first symptom of my son’s ASD was wanting to stand close enough to other children to touch them, thus making them uncomfortable. However, that was at 4. While he is still socially awkward, he did learn the basics and now has no difficulty knowing when to shake hands, when it’s OK to give a hug, etc. I’m sure there are those on the spectrum who have difficulty with that, but they would be very rare. This huff that’s been going around the community about rules, shake/hug, and general social etiquette is just BS from a bunch of dull-headed *dudz* with entitlement issues.
Walter Sobchak,
And that’s why I would much rather leave etiquette out of it, I probably wasn’t clear about that in the previous comment. There is just too much baggage there. And I generally think that teaching people to respect personal boundaries from young age should be a better goal than just enforcing a set of rules on them. Even if those rules are good from our point of view.
That has to been the most pathetic attempt at a tu quoque I’ve ever seen.
We’re not doomed at all. Regardless of the Whiny Ass Troll Brigade, we clearly won. Conference after conference implented policies. We won.
Which is why they are still whining, still pouting, still simultaneously accusing us of DEEEP RIIIIFFFTS and HIIIIVVEEEMINDDDD!
I personally think that most, if not every, human being goes through the I’m-The-Center-Of-The-Universe phase where they think they can do whatever they want and everyone else will love them for it. And then, they grow up.
Those that don’t grow up, go to TAM. *rim shot*
Anri,
I’m talking about the going back to church bit. Should’ve left it in the same paragraph. NOTHING could drag me back to church, thankyouverymuch, but all this broohaha seems to have gone all out of control and is very off-putting.
And what I said about the nuance-challenged was also a kind of warning against trolls who like to jump on the slightest word you say to accuse you of who knows what non-sequitur. I knew that without the disclaimer someone would send me packing, since I like church soooo much. (Which is not what you did)
The first part of my comment I mean completely. Yes, sexism is a huge problem. Yes, personal space has to be respected. I come from a latin-american background, where people touch each other A LOT MORE, sometimes in unwelcome ways too, but I think this whole thing has gone on for way too long and as a foreigner, it looks to me that mountains are being made out of molehills. It’s distracting the freethinking community from our important goals and it’s also making us look very childish and incompetent.
I’m mainly surprised that Mensa is still a thing.
I’m hella awkward– it took me until my early thirties to learn that just blurting out what I was thinking when asked (I am considered unusually blunt) was a bad idea. I only just recently grasped the idea of social lies to ease the conversation, like not actually answering how your day was when asked.
It’s only because of the meds I’m on that I can make eye contact, and I still haven’t quite mastered handshakes. I can almost figure out how to handle hugs from strangers, but that one is also tough– I have a tendency to freeze or lash out with a fist when startled.
Fuck, I was raised by wolves…. and I know not to touch someone without their permission. I know to ask and observe group norms (though that took me until my late twenties).
I am well aware that social interactions matter, and that I have to get along, which may be part of that whole asshole thing. They think these things don’t matter.
They wouldn’t if they had problems with this kind of thing. An awkward person may have decided that they can never ‘win,’ and sometimes may be angry about it, but it takes a special kind of privilege to be angry at everyone else for it and decide to take it out on strangers.
If you are awkward and observe people, you tend to NOT assume you are normal and everyone else isn’t, and that they deserve your ire.
I am a guy and I am socially inept and awkward. I do not know, if I have aspergers syndrome to any degree or if I am just strange, since I was never diagnosed, but I do meet some criteria – punctuality, adherence to routine etc. And I wish that the MRA jerks stopped using social awkwardness as an excuse for inappropriate behaviour – sentiment I noticed in previous topics I share with at least some of pharingulites.
During my college years I had to be essentially dragged into bar for the first time. I got used to it, but I kept my communication only with people I already knew or people who were introduced to me. In the end it became routine on its own, with – unwritten – rules etc. which eventually suited me well and I miss those years.
I had a crush back then on one girl I knew and I harrased/bothered her for some time with my advances before I “got it”. I hope she does not hold me in contempt now, we are still friends. The problem it took relatively long for me to “get it” and even why I got crush on her in the first place was not because I was invading her personal space on a whim and demanded intimate contact. Problem was that her personal space was shorter than mine, so what she considered as still “just friends” distance when we were talking, was in what I consider to be my intimate zone already. And therefore I misread her cues.
It happens sometimes with people of both sexes, that when they talk with me, their intimate zone is smaller than mine, so they approach me closer as they speak. Subsequently I reatreat etc. It leads to interesting “dances” on occasion (especially during my brief visit to USA, where people seem on average to be more casual with their personal space). I noticed it by other people too, and I learned, slowly, but I learned through observation, how to recognize this and how to cope with it. And I learned deliberately how to read body language from psychology books, when the natural gift elluded me.
But never ever in my life did I approach some unknown woman, no matter how attractive I found her. Never ever did I try to hug some stranger or someone I barely know. Very rarely do I stretch my hand for handshake as first, I usulally wait for the sign. It just feels too awkward. To be honest, even when attractive woman I do not know approaches ME (which did happen, strangely) it feels awkward and my first subconscious reaction is to try and find my way out of the situation.
Of course it is only anecdotal, but AFAIK socially awkward people do not need these rules in order NOT to touch anybody unwanted. At the worst they need them in order to recognize, when somebody wants to touch them.
The whole “so we need written consent for hanshakes now?” is to me nothing more than huge rotting red herring.
And on the issue of etiquette classes and economic class: my parents sent me to those (to learn to be a lady; to sit with my legs closed and be more ‘modest’ and ‘feminine.’)
They are very much about being ‘better than’ the hoi polloi.
@stardust Hey, if the atheist community no longer contained sexist assholes then we would be happy to stop talking about it.
That happened yet?
Remember how Christians say that atheists are just assholed who don’t want to follow rules or ethics?
Why is it all threads that are not about atheism or science are this same thread over and over?
moshiachone,
Because a lot of people are selfish assholes who don’t care about other people’s boundaries and keep whinging about convention policies preventing them from ever having sex again.
moschianchone @ 74: This same thread is happening over and over because misogynistic assholes keep bleating, braying, and crapping on our internet rug. And we’re not going to ignore it.
I grew up in a very touchy-feely subculture: contra dancing. Since the dance form itself involves lots of touching, naturally the people who gravitate towards it tend to be very comfortable with it. Nevertheless, a few months ago when I was engaging in some potentially promising flirtation with a guy I had met at a concert, he ruined the whole thing by grabbing me in an unexpected hug, with no verbal or non-verbal indication beforehand. I told him that wasn’t OK, and he got miffed.
The hugging without permission was one thing, but taking it personally? Was the surefire sign that he was kinda creepy and jerkish.
So, you know, guys… don’t do that.
Rut-roh…
Have you even fucking looked at the front page? Here’s what I see:
– Two posts regarding Why I am an atheist (atheism)
– Friday Cephalopod (science)
– A post about the Minnesota Atheists and a baseball game (atheism)
– Brains and beaks (science)
– Atheists can be idiots (atheism)
And there’s a very mild post about socially accetable behavior thrown in there, too. So the fuck what? It’s hardly the focus.
If you don’t fucking like it, don’t fucking read it.
Thanks for your story. This problem in particular is definitely their fault, not yours. “When someone backs away, don’t keep stepping forward” is a guideline that neurotypicals ought to have down pat. The reason they don’t is that we don’t treat personal autonomy as important, and that’s the kind of thing that guidelines help to spell out.
Also, I should add that these that topics like this tend to stick around for a while. I mean, shit, as long as we’ve got whiny assholes demanding their right to be assholes, we’re gonna talk about it. Does anyone else remember all of the FGM and circumcision threads from a while back? Ot all of the shit directly related to “guys, don’t do that?” It will be discussed for as long as it takes. Whining about how you don’t want to talk about it just paints you as an entitled douche.
If there’s one pattern to all of this, it’s that whatever the forum of discussion, however formal or intimate the situation, no matter what the background level of touchiness or even sexuality, from professional organizations to swingers’ cons: pushy entitled douches are still pushy entitled douches.
Well I can see how my 35 comment can be interpreted as a tu quoque. It was not my intention to criticise PZ’s position on the hug issue. Telling Stedman “You Sucked” was called to mind by his headline. I thought that was clear by the context but I guess it wasn’t.
Regarding hugs, in public gatherings I prefer verbal rather than physical hugging, that is, paying close attention to what someone says and indicating that you heard and sometimes checking your understanding. I prefer to receive that kind of hug also.
Gee, thanks, PZ.
QFT
Well, in some cultures the nod and shake mean no and yes, respectively.
So of course it’s perfectly natural for these poor, unsocialised menz to grab arse and perform feLouisio n anyone they meet. Denying them that right is culturally insensitive.
Karen Elson Told She ‘Needs To Get Raped’ After Condemning Daniel Tosh Rape Joke
I am speechless.
ludicrous –> killfile for terminal insipidity and vapidity. And for thinking we ever care what it thinks.
This can be done, but the problem with glib statements like this is that one of the core issues with ASDs is an inability to understand or absorb social rules at an intuitive level. So what happens when you try really, really hard to learn the rules is that you learn A rule, usually by having it explicitly explained to you, which you then apply, and are then very surprised to find that there are situations where applying these learned rules results in doing the WRONG thing, because neurotypicals, when explaining them, assume the limits and nuances are “obvious.” (When this problem is brought to neurotypicals’ attention, they are usually very capable of finding examples of rules whose limits and nuances ARE obvious and simply dismissing the problem that way.) This feels a lot like gaslighting; the subjective experience (especially if, like many people on the spectrum, you were extensively bullied for much of your life and your perspective is informed by the familiarity of that experience) is that the rules are being changed behind your back to ensure that you’re still breaking them (and being shamed and scorned for it) no matter how hard you try to learn and apply them. Coupled with the fact that these explanations are usually oozing with Fucking Privileged “what a shitty person you are that this even has to be EXPLAINED to you” contempt (like in the OP), this tends to make people on the spectrum extremely anxious and insecure, extremely cynical, or both.
Dianne is correct that having explicitly stated rules is helpful. In fact, it’s extremely helpful, because rules that are explicitly stated up front as a matter of policy are usually explained in more detail and with more forethought and less contempt, a
And for desserts we got one of the worst notpologies I’ve seen.
A little hint for you nitwit: When I say you suck it’s not due to my lacking social skills.
Sili:
*snortlechoke!*
Ludicrous:
Kind of a weird way to describe a hug, but yeah, actually listening to and comprehending what someone has to say helps to keep everyone comfortable.
goddamnit.
“…and attention is generally called to the presence of limits and nuances, which make or may not be spelled out.”
On topic, this is extremely true.
So, you’re saying that sexism and issues of personal space and privacy are clearly quite important, just not important enough to actually discuss?
You’re saying that these issues are so important as to make people having discussions about them look foolish?
Is it that you need to have the reasons why humanism and feminism are closely related spelled out to you? I can do that, if you’re uncertain.
Or is it that you need to have the reasons why the skeptical community (such as it is) should be especially concerned with these issues, particularly internally, described to you? Because I can do that instead.
Or is it perhaps that, your protestations to the contrary, you don’t actually think this is an issue worth discussing, as it doesn’t effect people worth your time?
That’s a harsh way of asking the question, but there it is. I ask it that way because, in the end, unfortunately, most people complaining about the ongoing discussion have ideas that boil down to this. I hope you don’t, but if you do, I’d just as soon get that cleared up from the start.
There is a documentary, I Think We’re Alone Now, that is a bit of exploitation concerning two obsessed Tiffany stalkers/fans. The one would wait for Tiffany at events and ambush hug her. She had restraining orders out on him in the past, but I suppose she has adopted a “just solider through it” attitude, as she allows him near her. She knows who he is, so I assume she could easily have him barred from any events. I think of him when I read this. Her body language screams “DO NOT TOUCH ME.” The dude has autism and is a delusional creep so he can’t tell (he would refuse to probably if he could).
He also assaulted her when she was 16. He was in his 30s, I believe. She was at a mall signing, and he ambush-kissed her.
PZ I find it ironic that you consider “anti-social, clumsy nerds who need everything spelled out literally for them” to be problem regarding sexual harassment when these types of people are the least likely group to make sexual advances towards anyone.
More specifically, antisocial behavior does not imply a lack of intuiting the feelings of others, but a lack of caring about them.
That’s one of the things that bugs me so much when assholes start trying to hide behind an autism defense. When an asshole gets rejected for their advances, they get angry about it. When someone with actual social cue problems gets rejected, it fucking hurts. The assholes aren’t just trying to exploit those problems, they’re making a mockery of it.
Azkyroth: I’m not as far as I know on any spectrum, but I am terrible at reading nuance. Knowing this, I don’t initiate hugs except with my wife and daughter. Or really any other kind of physical contact. It’s a pretty easy rule.
Louis, I think you need to add ‘Snarkmonster’ to your ‘nym.
Optionally, include ‘of Doom!’ (Exclamation point required.)
Being raised by wolves, I just sniff strangers’ crotch as a greeting, myself. =P
That’s not what PZ is saying. At least not unless my reading skills have gone to hell (Quite possibly they have, I’ve spent the day reading EU official documents – I won’t blame them if they’ve fled).
You aren’t listening. You are right, but the slimepit predators hide behind the phrase “socially inept” as an excuse for their over-the-line misogyny. When their real problem is their lack of empathy for the feelings of women. If you have a better way to address the problem do so.
Yes, people have no idea how fucking much.
Yes it’s good to discard the big gods, zeus, thor allah jesus but the yearning to look up to, to have faith in someone or something is not so easily subdued. Little gods pop up hitchens, dawkins, batman etc. and they are grasped and hung onto like life preservers. Then they disappoint, they always do and then there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
You keep on inventing and worshiping gods, big and little and the suffering continues.
The solution stares us in the face, give up creating gods of whatever sort.
Azkyroth: So one asks. If people think you’re weird because you ask, it’s still better than finding out in retrospect (because they’re avoiding you and someone tells you it’s because of some behavior you thought was innocuous) that you’ve seriously alienated someone. It’s damn hard to get along with people, and doing so takes
I agree that nuance is very difficult, but as someone who learned how to respond by noticing things like the approximate degree of spinal tilt and distance in inches between one’s own body and others, it’s not impossible.
In fact, it’s a survival skill. We weirdos live in a world full of people who are very different, and as a result, we’re stuck having to keep figuring out how to deal with that world, since it won’t adapt enough to make us comfortable all the time. (I am most comfortable alone with my computer or a book, with no noises or faint city noise in the background; alas, I have to work and go to classes.)
If I try approach A, which I’ve seen other people do in the same circumstance, and it doesn’t work, I start adapting to circumstances. I do more observations of the group. What do people say to one another? How do they touch one another, etc.
It helps me to ‘take a baseline’ of someone’s facial expressions and speech when they’re talking to me and to others, and to ask questions. What is their relaxed body language (I compare to a composite to check.) And yes, a baseline which is literally composed of average tilt of mouth, average clothing style, average spinal tilt when speaking– all of these individual observations, as compared to the baseline I’ve observed from the people in the region I’m in.
.. doing so takes a lot of effort and care…
I blame five hours of sleep and weak coffee.
I’m not trying to dispute rules against unwanted physical contact – just reacting to the NT-privilege that’s being incidentally deployed along with it, I guess.
I see someone is trying really really hard to live up to their nym…
The bit about Dawkins had me up in stitches. And it dawned on me I haven’t read anything he’s written since “Dear muslima”.
ludicrous ,
You are getting a bit off topic. When I say a bit, I mean you’re not even in the same galaxy as the topic. May I suggest TZT?
Okay, ludicrous has descended into word salad territory.
My kingdom for a mobile killfile!
It doesn’t quite work like that. Things like “appropriate distance for having a conversation” are usually very culturally ingrained in a person. If you are engaged in an interesting conversation with someone it is often not even conscious. I’m from a “large personal space” culture but live in a “smaller personal space” one. If I am talking to someone standing too close it makes me uncomfortable, but usually not enough to consciously register. Rather, I take a step back, without thinking about it. The other party will after some time feel that the distance is too large for a conversation, also without consciously realizing what is going on. They take a step forward. And thus the dance has begun. It usually takes many such moves for either of us to notice what is happening. There need to be no ill will for this to occur.
(If you think standing further apart should be no problem (on the unconscious level) try having an engaging conversation with someone standing 2 meters away.)
From experience of having lived in three different countries extended periods of time I have becomes rather fascinated with how deep sitting the little cultural norms are. It takes a lot of time to adjust. Culture shock isn’t just the big differences. It can be the very small things that kinda grates when you have to do it for months and years. After a while you adapt to the new cultural conditions, but it takes time.
For example, I used to feel a slight discomfort in the US with people asking “how’s it going” all the time. It felt very intrusive. Like people who were just acquaintances insisting on knowing what was happening in my life. Of course I knew intellectually that it was just a surface politeness. A simple “good, what about you” suffices. No one really requests to know the intimate details of you existence. But it took years for me to shake the feeling. Because my original culture doesn’t work like this. One asks how friends are doing after an illness, for example. Or if you haven’t seen them for a very long time. It is a real question, looking for a real answer.
Now suppose I were to request not to be asked this. How long would it take you to kick the habit? How often do you run into people and say ” hi! how’s it going/what’s up?” How strongly is this common, friendly greeting integrated in your social interaction protocol?
(BTW. I am in no way suggesting that harassment issues are in any significant part due to culture clashes. It is quite clear that the atheist/sceptic communities suffers from the presence of some boorish cads. I support dealing with them appropriately.)
I guess that would explain how they usually think it’s funny. :/
How about swapping out “People who don’t understand these things: go drink bleach!” for “People who genuinely don’t understand these things: here are some resources to improve your understanding, that actually teach behavior which matches NT expectations of ‘not-an-asshole’ and aren’t PUA sites in disguise or some such. People who pretend not to understand: go drink bleach!” Or, I guess, if you don’t really want to try to help, just the last sentence. There’s absolutely no need to implicitly shit on people with genuine social difficulties when legitimately counterattacking entitled assholes.
(Or to trivialize those difficulties, for that matter.)
My bad.
This is good advice in principle, but people habitually don’t answer honestly – especially before they’ve become sufficiently alienated that recovery is generally impossible. This ALSO feels like gaslighting, and frankly I think it is. Having someone assuring you they’re fine while you THINK you’re picking up “you’re upsetting me” signals is actually kind of terrifying.
Tried this. Sometimes it works, sometimes it’s a perfect example of a rule that causes problems when you do what people tell you because, for instance people in the group may already know each other and have radically different expectations for behavior from people with different levels of familiarity (and don’t communicate this or where the demarcations of familiarity are), and usually too easily alienated to determine this by trial and error.
It’s things like that, and the inability to impress on neurotypicals that no, they do NOT “follow logically” without an intuitive sense of appropriate behaviors, from the “basics” that are explained over and over, sometimes to the point of becoming insulting.
Lacking any intuitive sense of body language complicates this, and Googling “body language composite” isn’t returning any useful results. What do you mean and where would one get it?
My brother is on the autism spectrum, and I grew up in a walk-in closet reading textbooks, so lots of familiarity with rejection and misreading cues. It turns out that I was WAY more popular than I thought I was in high school, and no one ever understood why I rarely went to any of the parties. If I didn’t get a specific invitation, I didn’t go. My brother didn’t date until he was 25 and moved in with the first woman who was willing and he called it a life. I developed a pretty impressive drinking problem to deal with social anxiety, rejection, and loneliness. Hell, I’m married now and I still have social anxiety that has nothing to do with trying to meet and flirt with women. I have a hard time ordering a pizza…
We’re not talking about social awkwardness or having a hard time reading cues. We’re talking about people pretending to have those issues as an excuse to ignore cues and social rules, and I say we thrash those assholes about the heads and shoulders with a shit-dipped sea bass.
Yeah, I avoid the hug topic because it is soooo complicated. I take the easy way out, never initiate outside of an intimate relationship, usually accede to requests except from the sweaties.
Pressing my body up against acquaintances doesn’t do anything for me.
I do agree it is an issue that needs to be discussed over and over again until we get it right.
Since the floor is so tilted gender wise I think we men ought to bite the bullet and let the women initiate hugs at things like conventions. We men can express our positive feelings verbally and other ways without putting women in the position of having to do the no saying. We know that for women the saying of no is often heavy duty because they really do not like to step on mens feelings and because the no may be ignored and then it becomes a physical contest which adds another scary element for women.
In short, again, hugs are a place where women have nearly all the disadvantages so we men should go out of our way to make it as easy for them as it is for us. We can sacrifice a bit of our precious feedoms for the comfort of others. Besides when women feel safe at a convention we all have much more fun.
And use language that distinguishes between those groups while doing it. :/
me too. I’ll do almost anything to avoid talking on the telephone with somebody I don’t know.
Suggestions?
Wild. My wife is the same with taliking to strangers on the phone. I’d so much rather talk to them on the phone than in person, myself.
With the phone thing, I can’t read cues over the phone, and it makes me uncomfortable.
Azkyroth,
So, I find myself in the middle of this. On one hand, most of the time I just try to muddle through when I’m in company of someone I don’t already know for years. I try to be better, to emulate those who just breeze through social interactions with no problem and end up with new friends or lovers. I do my best, but it often ends up with disappointment because I obviously am not good enough at playing these social games, no matter how hard I try. And it hurts. And it makes me try harder. And then it hurts even more when I fail. And sometimes I make people uncomfortable with my bluntness at the wrong moment, but where I put a line that I never cross is intruding into someone’s personal space. So here comes that “on the other hand”, because I am also a woman who is sometimes in a position of having to react to other people stepping over my own boundaries. Depending on who it is, in what kind of situation, it can make me uncomfortable or angry or even panicky. So I understand why people get so angry at those who keep insisting that the world owes them explanations, that people they encounter should magically recognize them as awkward and help them. I mean, it would be nice if people would help, but I don’t expect it. I can’t expect strangers to know that I have people issues and allow me some things that they would consider unacceptable from someone else. I’m not sure if I’m explaining myself well, but maybe you should consider that you have a lot of people who don’t have neurotypical privilege here, but also see how this social awkwardness has become an excuse for a lot of people, some of them just assholes, some of them socially awkward assholes but nevertheless an excuse for hurting others.
Improbable Joe:
Not very kind to the sea bass, but otherwise I agree,
I’ve had to spend a lot of time figuring out how to decipher meaning in a way that most people don’t have to: I have auditory processing disorder, which means that while my hearing is normal, I can’t process it like most people do. I hear the sounds that come out of people’s mouths, but translating that into understandable speech can be very difficult for me. I had to go through speech therapy because there were certain phonemes I simply wasn’t aware existed and so they were entirely absent from my speech. Before I was trained to be aware of those phonemes, the English language had 5,000 homonyms to me. I can remember being about five years old and marveling that other people could tell the difference between run and won or laugh and raft.
So I learned. If I asked a question of someone and they gave a long answer, even if I wasn’t able to follow what they were saying, it was a good bet that a long answer meant no, because no tended to come with an explanation. Picking apart facial expressions in an extremely meticulous way gave me further meaning. Body language, eye contact, gestures, all of these things that people don’t think about as conscious communication, I had to learn to use because I couldn’t rely on verbal speech.
Since I’m obviously not hard of hearing, people who try to talk to me when I can’t see them clearly will often think I’m rude, or stupid, or not paying attention to them. So though I’m not on the autism spectrum, I immensely empathize with those who can understand the literal words, but find those unspoken aspects of communication so difficult.
But there really is such a clear and bright line separating those I’ve known and loved who are on the autism spectrum and those who use claimed cluelessness to abuse boundaries.
Now imagine me having to do surveys over the phone, having that same issue. When this is done, I’m not sure if I will disconnect my phone forever or discover I have gotten over the problem.
Chas:
Mr Darkheart is exactly the same way about talking on the phone– he doesn’t even like to talk to his mom on the phone, let alone someone he doesn’t know.
(Poor guy spends most of his workday on the phone talking to strangers. You can imagine how stressed out that makes him.)
Azkyroth: There aren’t any hard and fast rules good for all situations. We fuck up, and it sucks, but holding out for a perfect set of rules is like holding out for a live unicorn.
A body language composite, for my purposes, involves things like looking at the average angle of inclination when sitting of people in a group. Do they tend to lounge at angles greater than 98 degrees? Do they fidget? Do they sit forward when they’re listening (and people tend to sit forward here in the US when they feel personally invested, for the negative or the positive, in a conversation, at angles from 83 to 45 degrees, assuming the line of their lap is 0 degrees and perfect posture is 90 degrees.)
And then I average those postures. If the group is, by and large, sitting somewhere between 83 and 95 degrees, without the presence of obvious indicators like banging the table, raised voices and sudden, violent bodily movements, I will assume they are relaxed, and behaving in ways they find comfortable.
This is all situational; people where I am tend to sit at those angles, and do not yell unless angry or exited.
It can be done, even for people who, like me, spent their childhood being *literally* beaten for being weird. And yes, actually, I have a laundry list of diagnoses from my childhood which, if they had happened recently, would put me nicely on the spectrum, things like standing too close, touching too much (petting hair, arms), being brutally honest, forgetting to wear clothing items, the inability to adapt to social circumstances, speaking like a little professor and being unable to figure out where to stop talking or quoting facts, memorization of numbers/facts/whole conversations, etc.
You know, NOT like a normal person.
There’s a couple reasons for this that I know of, which are habits of self-defense and/or self-soothing.
Expressing discomfort with another person’s actions is often treated as a sign of weakness, which is then shamed, or exploited: “how dare you accuse me of trying to make you feel uncomfortable” or “I was just trying to be friendly; why are you so mean/touchy?” So people learn to say “no, you’re fine,” while keeping their distance until they can escape.
Also, sometimes people express that “everything’s okay, I feel fine” because they want to feel fine and telling others (and especially themselves) that they do feel fine is a way of getting there. Sounds weird but it works; possibly analogous to cats purring in distress.
Chas:
I don’t like talking on the phone with people I know.
ixchel:
Or they may not be entirely aware of what they’re feeling and so say “fine” because it’s neutral. There are times when I dissociated because of my PTSD and am unable to identify what I’m feeling. This has led to pissing people off and being accused of messing with their heads when I did finally figure out what the problem was and tried to explain later.
It’s a tricky world out there.
I want to thank all those folks who have particular difficulty reading people for disclosing their issues here. I didn’t know this was fairly common and will now try to be more alert and aware.
Is there an educational website on how to recognize and relate?
Ixchel:
That’s a massive personal alarm for me, I’ll do anything to get away from that particular excuse and the person making it. I know that’s my problem and it’s one of the reasons I rarely socialize. I don’t do well with extroverted, gregarious peoples.
Ah, yes, this too. And I think this can happen without dissociation.
Someone recently asked me if I was feeling better and all I could say was that I can’t tell, can’t feel the difference, but that my outward behavior did seem to indicate a change.
^ This. Some neurotypical people also expect the other person *to pick up on* the unstated meaning of ‘you’re bothering me but I don’t feel comfortable confronting you’. After this sort of thing almost got me fired, I added another self-imposed rule… whenever someone says “No, you’re fine” or similar to me, I specifically answer “Okay, if you’re sure; please feel free to tell me if I’m imposing.” followed by a few seconds’ pause to give them opportunity to clarify, respond or otherwise show that they want to get away.
ludicris: I spent a lot of time reading books (I own a copy of “How to Make Friends and Influence People,” for instance), but most of my knowledge comes from a ridiculous amount of observation and averaging what I see (with the understanding that individuals have differences from the average.)
I’ve actually found learning feminism to be much more effective than the self-help books, because it helps me be more mindful.
Me too. I want the where, with whom, and how soon, okay bye.
*lightbulb*
I always thought spouse’s phone anxiety was because of spending years doing crappy phone jobs where people only call to complain and yell, but that might be it too.
Good point about the space dance, thanks. The little bit I really pay attention to about what body language and social interactions mean has come from having to articulate it to my son, who needs that assistance. It made me stop and be, as mouthyb described it, more mindful of all the things I was doing and reacting to without conscious thought. And it’s helped me to be more aware to sense distress through small body language in other people.
Add me to the ‘fucking hate talking on phones’ group. The people I know hit me up on chat programs.
Most social cue resources are written for children rather than adults, but here are some social stories about body language if anyone wants to go look at them to see what social stories are about. The first one is called “All about hugs”. These are much more simplistic than adults on the spectrum would need, but I enjoy the fact that the hug story says “Is it ok to hug anyone when I feel like it? What is the rule? The rule is NO! First I must ask. Ask: can I give you a hug please? Wait for the answer: yes or no.”
I’ve looked for things before, and I think there’s still a problem in that there have been a lot of good materials developed, but they’re still the kinds of things that are generally available to therapists only.
Here are a couple of books just found on amazon:
The Definitive Book of Body Language, also available as e-book. Has good reviews.
Body Language 101 book, reviews are mixed.
Wow, there are a lot more books out there on body language than I thought. list
Also, since I’m feeling chatty, you can condition unconscious responses (hence karate training or changes in people’s psyche as they become more and more committed to an ideological system.)
The audio of phones is largely useless to me. Text messages or a chat program are the best the way to communicate with me if we can’t get together in person.
… are we bullying anyone yet? I was hoping for some quality bullying before I get too drunk to remember what crap I type and my wife makes me go to bed.
In and of itself that’s reasonable, and again I’m not arguing against either rules against unwanted physical contact or resistance to people’s attempting to use “awkwardness” as a stalking horse. I even understand why people are initially cynical about behavior being explained as awkwardness or even disability symptoms. But when people apologize, acknowledge that they have received the message that their behavior was causing problems for others (even if they dispute the motives attributed to them), and ask for an explanation as part of a good faith effort to avoid causing similar offense in the future, I really think some reciprocation is entirely reasonable.
So, I understand that people won’t “just know,” but when they’re actually being told…
Well, I’m glad they’ve found something that works for them.
This behavior remains confusing, distressing, and very disruptive to people with ASDs’ efforts to learn to function in a socially accepted manner. Drawing attention to this may at least help people who interact with people with ASDs to be helpful rather than hurtful.
@mouthyb
Do you mean that tripe by Dale Carnegie? I discarded that book as useless crap. It seemed to me to be more than less an manual of “how to suck up to people facts and truth be damned”. There are more books of very similar names though.
@ludicrous: Are you trying to be 1) funny, 2)sincere or are you just 3)sarcastic asshole? Depending on the answer either 1)fuck off, 2)just read and search and you will learn or 3)fuck off. Thankyouverymuchforyourcooperationonthisissue.
I’ve also tried that; I’ve found that people usually double down and I tend to wind up backing off from the interaction at that point, feeling very uncomfortable (and they usually don’t seem at all disappointed).
Well, my hate of talking to strangers on the phone has probably got more to do with the anxiety about my voice than anything else. I sound like a thirteen year old and always fear that people won’t take me seriously.
Charly: I said I read it, not that I thought it was useful.
Yes, me too. Sincerely.
You know it was sincere when I said this to you the other day, right?
As an accessible, concise, non-clinical explanation of autism spectrum disorder disabilities (specifically Asperger’s; “classical” autism, as I understand it, is mainly distinguished by delays in development of speech and language but the other social symptoms are mostly in common), the best source I’ve found is actually here. (Warning: link to TV Tropes). There are other sources; unfortunately, there’s a lot of misinformation, including the “people with ASDs are just assholes who want an excuse” school of react and the anti-vax kooks, so just Googling at random is kind of a crapshoot.
I didn’t. :/ Thanks..?
Ordered. Thanks.
Azkyroth,
When we discuss these things here, the topic is usually sexism. Most recently it’s been about how women are supposed to react to unwanted advances from socially awkward men, or more often men who claim social awkwardness but are actually just jerks. In that context, most women (me included) get angered by all the expectations heaped upon us. We should explain things to these men, we should be more understanding, we should this and that. It seems that our responsibility is to educate every stranger that crosses our path.
When it comes to asking questions in no specific context, in meatspace, there are the reasons ixchel and Caine have already given, among others.
I feel that you are dividing people a bit simplistically. There are neurotypical people for whom interactions are easy and non-neuortypical for whom they are difficult. But there are also all these social norms, those little rules with which you have problems, but which are also restraining the neurotypcials in some ways. We have already mentioned pressure on women to be polite, not to express dissatisfaction. Or it can happen that people are actually trying to make you feel better by saying that you did nothing wrong, not understanding that you would rather know so that you can improve.
Azkyroth, I just want to add to your post @149 that this is not solely about people on the autism spectrum. There are plenty of us out there who may be neurotypical, who are nonetheless introverted and not terribly comfortable in social situations. There are also plenty of us out there who are not only introverted but have other issues on top of that, such as PTSD.
My introverted, shy daughter got a summer job working in a supermarket as a cashier. After she’d been doing it for a while, I asked how she felt working there. She said: “It’s improved my relationships with others. Now I can ask complete strangers ‘paper or plastic?’.”
Ah. It was. I have no interest in suggesting that you personally should deal with apologies any way other than you do.
To the topic at hand here:
I don’t disagree with this. I was only trying to give you what observations I have about why people do what they do.
Nothing obvious comes to my mind when considering peoples’ needs to self-protect and self-sooth, as well as occasional inability to recognize their own feelings, versus the need of people with ASDs to understand when they’re making someone else uncomfortable.
Talking about it online seems to help navigate the shoals of nuance, though — Pteryxx’s finding of a slightly better way makes me resist the urge to throw up my hands and say “humans are fucked!”
…okay, I can follow (sort of) the “Unfortunate Implications” there. I don’t mean to imply that women have special responsibilities in this regard or that it’s specific to this context; I was literally just reacting to language I saw as demonizing people with (actual) difficulties understanding social norms and then expanding on things I and others had said. :/
True. Those aren’t perspectives I can speak from, though, and the difficulties attending ASD symptoms are specific and seemingly very counterintuitive for most people who don’t have them, so that’s kind of my personal focus.
I’m kind of curious if I’m the only person ever who does this, but my phone anxiety is sometimes somewhat alleviated if I look at myself in a mirror while I talk, just so I have a face to interact with.
I may just be crazy, though.
Oh, accidental neurotypical slur. Sorry about that.
How about: “It might just be me, though.”
Thanks Ixchel. (I almost wrote ‘thanx’…)
Azkyroth:
That’s been my experience too. Doubling down *usually* means they overcommit to being polite, though; they go from “No, you’re fine” to “No really, it’s fine, everything’s okay” with nervous laughter or other signals that make no sense. Then I usually say “Well that’s enough for now, let me know if you’d like to talk more about (whatever topic was)” and I go do something else. If they really DO take the opportunity to clarify or ask further questions, or make a statement of their own, that’s a good sign to continue the conversation. Sometimes people are giving off ‘please stop’ signals because I’m being overbearing or dominating the conversation; so knowing that I *have* that tendency, it won’t hurt me any to err on the side of backing off.
This still doesn’t always work… some people take “If you have a problem with me, TELL ME” as an invitation to *fight about* whatever the problem might be. The only ways I’ve found to even attempt to deal with this are 1) to state it outright and early, before any conflicts have even arisen, and 2) to keep third parties around to ask for advice. I’ve been lucky to work for supervisors who were willing to mediate interpersonal conflicts when they came up, though it’d be better if the situations had never escalated that far.
Hope this rambling’s useful to y’all. (But text is great; y’all can ignore it or consider at leisure and in privacy.)
In response to this (I hope this isn’t derailing)…
For me, I find phone conversations stressful because:
1) because of the other difficulties and my tendency to be busy and narrowly focused, they’re usually initiated by the other side, so the phone ringing jarringly interrupts whatever I’m doing, so I’m kind of flustered to start with;
2) I don’t know if my head and shoulder anatomy is subtly weird or what, but I’ve never been able to get the “hold the phone with your shoulder” thing to work well, so I can’t use at least one of my hands (or have to be extremely careful with my posture, and I have some coordination issues already) – headsets help, but people usually claim to have problems with signal clarity when I use them, even ones explicitly sold as “noise-canceling”;
3) there’s no ability to pause and think about what I’m saying or to process what the other person is saying, and cues that I might need to aren’t communicated well by phone (I find that when I’m overloaded by something that people are saying, the “processing power” to stop and process a calmly stated “just a minute, I need to think about this” simply isn’t there, another thing that neurotypicals seem to have a great deal of difficulty wrapping their minds around, and this is worse on the phone for some reason),
4) when I do tell people I need them to hold on they ignore it frequently enough that I find even trying extremely stressful (or worse, they start rapidly repeating parts of what they’ve said, forcing me to start the processing over again – like whacking a CD player to make it skip),
5) what little ability I have to read body language is completely removed from the equation,
6) due to signal or equipment issues, I am frequently asked to repeat things I’ve said, which is extremely jarring to have to stop and do, and
7) I don’t have a person to focus on and am easily distracted by other visual stimuli.
The mirror idea might be worth exploring for that last; thanks.
Azkyroth,
No, I didn’t think you were implying anything like that. I just wanted to explain that it’s not always as simple as “just a question”. It doesn’t even have to be the person asking the question who expects too much of a woman, the pressure of our whole upbringing and society’s expectations is going to color the interaction.
I operate with a simple default assumption, which is that no one wishes to have physical interactions with me. So I never initiate, but am happy to hug if requested.
I think the gaming community would refer to that as exceptions-based design.
The jerks have inevitably heard somewhere that touch is a basic human need, and if other people won’t do what’s required to sate their need, can we blame them for cutting a few corners? Yes. Yes, we can.
Heh, I have to close my eyes to hear what someone’s saying over the phone. (This DOES NOT WORK in multiplayer team chat situations. *massive explosions*)
Also seconding the distraction of ringing phones… I set my phones to ring more times than usual before messaging, in hopes that I have a few extra rings to calm down and focus before answering. With cell phones it’s WAY easier to just look at who just called/messaged and call them back within a few minutes instead of answering right away. (Also, the speakerphone function on my cellphone is a freakin’ lifesaver in freeing up my hands to think with.)
The reason I like messenger programs is that it gives me time to process my thoughts and the words. It’s like a little breather between requests for processing.
Turn-based communication FTW.
Pteryxx: Heh. In some ways I like multiplayer and headsets: it’s a chance to focus on a single task (kill the enemies, save the hostages, etc) but with nonphysical teamwork. It’s hard to ‘hear’ the requests if they’re happening all at once (it takes me a second to sort them out), but it’s kind of like socialization for me, you know?
Also, it gives me a cheap sense of satisfaction. :D I like to play games where I kill Nazis/bad people for that reason: team work, making the world a better place, friends who aren’t super chatty on mic/are similarly focused, and Steam achievements.
I named my TF2 gun “Fluffy Lady Brainz,” so I also get the satisfaction of killing waves of people with Fluffy Lady Brainz.
Sorry, “Pink Fluffy Lady Brainz”.
I ♥ e-mail. Greatest thing ever for me. It’s my preferred method of communication. It has the added benefit of being blissfully ignorable when I’m in no state to deal*.
*I need fairly large chunks of time where I’m incommunicado.
mouthyb: Oh, I lovelovelove multiplayer teamwork. It definitely counts as social interaction; avatars even have their own body language – you can tell where another player is looking or if they’re startled or confident. Playing games with friends (or even strangers) soothes a social need for me. (Are we OT enough yet? <_< )
I believe we are sufficiently OT for anything.
In some ways, though, I think it’s good to discuss that many of us have the social problems those slimy fucks are claiming in order to avoid consequences from their actions. They like to cast women as perfectly socially competent and just being mean to the poor awkward men who want to love them, or some shit like that.
Right… but socially awkward *women* also deserve protection from predators exploiting their uncertainty and desire not to cause offence. And when two socially awkward people meet each other, shouldn’t rules and explicit verbal communication help both parties?
This.
You’d think that would be a priority, if nothing else than for the sake of not having that frustrating moment where everyone realizes that the other person doesn’t want to be there.
@Azkyroth
I am neurotypical, but I’m also quite introverted and get uncomfortable in social situations with lots of people – even if they’re people I know well. There’s only so much of it that I can handle without taking a break to re-charge. I don’t understand why it’s so easy for some people to glide through these social situations, why they seem to really enjoy them and thrive off them, why it’s so easy for them to make friends and gain sexual partners. It’s never been easy for me, ever.
Unfortunately, I still have to play by these rules that everyone seems to know, so I minimize my chances of making a mistake by minimizing my “gameplay”. I’m not saying this as advice for anyone else, I’m simply identifying it as one of my coping mechanisms.
But there are situations in which I’m backed into a metaphorical corner and have to refuse someone’s advances. I was raised to “not make a fuss” and “be polite” and “be nice to everyone”, which means that I have a lot of social programming to overcome if I want to/have to be direct with someone. And in a lot of situations, I will try the soft refusals first, and have to be provoked into a hard one.
It sucks, but there are people out there who co-opt the “excuse” of being socially awkward or even non-neurotypical to justify their bad behavior or inability to recognize a refusal. At this point, I’m already put in a position of stress, and it doesn’t even occur to me to try to make explanations. Another thing to note is that in harassment situations, demanding explanations is actually a tool used to prolong the harassment:
“Why won’t you go out with me? You got a boyfriend?”
“Nah, he’s not for you, baby. I’ll show you what a real man is like.”
or
“You don’t have a boyfriend, you don’t have an excuse.”
So in those situations, my first priority is to end the interaction quickly with as little trouble as possible.
As long as we’re going OT… one factor of multiplayer gaming that’s actually been a big help to my *social skills* has been roleplaying. Roleplayers using avatars have to explicitly describe their nonverbal communication – hence the snippets of text called “emotes”. They actually state gestures such as *lowered eyes* or *hesitates and turns away*, which has been invaluable to me in learning what nonverbal cues go with what messages.
Yes, absolutely.
Earlier today I was discussing this very issue with a friend of mine who is a woman with Asperger’s. She said that because social interaction is difficult for her, she feels especially pressured to acquiesce to attempts to engage in physical contact, even though she hates it.
mythbri: for what it’s worth, I’m listening. I’m a socially awkward and aspie-ish person who’s also an extrovert, when possible.
Maybe what’s needed is a guide or discussion specifically on how us socially clueless types can best interact *with introverts* ? When someone’s uncomfortable making blunt statements, then someone like me bluntly stating “Please tell me bluntly if I’m making you uncomfortable” isn’t going to do a damn bit of good.
“It doesn’t even have to be the person asking the question who expects too much of a woman, the pressure of our whole upbringing and society’s expectations is going to color the interaction.”
It seems to me, in my culture at least, women are responsible for keeping social actions running smoothly. Men have more freedom to behave less responsibly (compare the sex differences in these blog comments) We get to rock the boat, be rude. I don’t know of any women on FTB who come anywhere near the plain nastiness of some of the men.
Women tend more than men to ignore nastiness, smooth it over, change the subject, find a pony under the shitpile etc.
Now some women have decided to stop ignoring certain aspects of irresponsible male behavior, in particular sexual harassment.
The thing is women have taken on this job without being paid. They didn’t cause it and now they have to try to fix it. Some take large amounts of time and physical and emotional energy to do this job.
My suggestion is that men be charged an extra $50 conference fee to pay some volunteers, women and men to tutor men in social interaction.
Sure this suggestion may be ludicrous, but the unfairness of it all is very real.
Yes, to be fair, many men have taken on this job too but it is so much easier for us. We don’t encounter the backlash shit and when we do run into it it’s easier for us to brush it off. We haven’t had to live with having to keep quiet about it all our lives.
Comics don’t suggest it would be fun to watch us being gang-raped.
I…see. That’s not not…at all what I had in mind. I wouldn’t even classify that as seeking an explanation, personally; it’s browbeating. What I’m thinking of and what you’re likely to see from people with ASDs is more along the lines of “what am I doing wrong?” and “…I’m confused” or “…I thought people preferred..” as a follow up. (Not that this is always appropriate either, I suppsoe…)
Yeah, that’s fucked up, and I’d say it’s also qualitatively different from what I mean when I refer to “requesting an explanation.”
That’s ludicrous.
I agree, especially as one of those women.
I don’t think that I was saying that explicit verbal communication is wrong, I just wanted to point out the difficulties, when we have all these other rules and expectations, some of which actually say that you (especially when the general you is a woman) shouldn’t talk openly and explicitly say what you want.
Azkyroth: *nod* When the other person wants the interaction to just end, asking even honest good-faith questions can be inappropriate. (This is the sort of thing I got in trouble for, so I actually had a discussion with my supervisor about it – hence my new rule of ask-once-then-stop.) The only suggestion I have is to make that one statement something like “I’m clueless sometimes; if you’re willing to tell me later what I did wrong, I’d appreciate that.” And then leave as an indicator of good faith. So far I’ve only rarely had *the person upset with me* follow up. More often they either go through a third party or never mention it again that I can tell.
Pteryxx:
I think you’re confusing introvert with painfully shy or conditioned to be non-assertive.
Social interactions tire me. They are utterly exhausting. The reason why for *me* is that a social function requires me to put on a carefully prepared persona, and once in the social setting, it’s all a performance. I’d really rather not have to do such shit. (A small gathering of friends is completely different.)
Another reason for *my* exhaustion: I’ll try to find a place to sit or hang out which is quiet, a place I can observe and listen to others. If I’m left to this, I’m fine. However, a majority of people have been taught to react to someone sitting in a quiet corner with the “Uh oh, socialize them!” syndrome. Very often, that someone simply thinks they are doing their social duty, so to speak, and turn off their observation powers, so will miss quiet cues that I’d rather be left alone.
Now, I’m introverted, however, I have zero problem in being assertive. If someone is bothering me, I’ll say so. If I wish to be left alone, I’ll say so. If someone is being a fucking ass, I’ll say so.
…actually, that’s another good reason to have harassment policies and staff tasked with handling reports. Most people (neurotypical people?) would rather send their interpersonal concerns *through a third party* than confront the problematic individual directly. And I’m saying that when “the problematic individual” specifically means me.
Also, yes, introverted people. This open communication sucks for us.
I think every part of the Oleander tree is deadly poisonous. I think a tea made from oleander would be poisonous too.
ugh, Caine, thank you for clarifying. Yes I did think those were the same or at least had massive overlap. *headdesk*
@Azkyroth
Yes, I realize that the example of prolonging the harassment is qualitatively different from someone with an ASD genuinely trying to understand where they may have put a foot wrong. It’s just that my experience is that some men think that systematically dismantling my reasons for a refusal will eventually leave me with no other recourse but to accept attention that I don’t want. It’s almost like JAQ-ing off, in a way. I hope that I would be able to tell the difference between someone who was trying to browbeat me and someone who wanted honest feedback, but the truth is that there’s no way I can really know that initially.
@Pteryxx
As Caine said, just because someone is an introvert doesn’t mean that they can’t be assertive. I’m plenty assertive at work or with close family and friends (no potential for sexual interaction). But if I’m in a large group of people – particularly one with an atmosphere charged with the potential for sexual interaction – then I’m completely adrift. I feel like a cat that hides under the bed when strangers come to visit – it’s hard for me to know what’s going on and what people’s motivations are, and all the while I’m trying to fight against the way I was raised so that I can end up having a relatively good time (thanks, religious upbringing. SO helpful).
Definitely with the doing it later, I think. That goes for when you’re in a fight, too (I can’t express why I’m mad at you now because I’m too mad, wait until I calm down) and other awkward situations. If you have a friend who doesn’t mind (hello internet!) you could probably describe the interaction to that third party and they might pick up on enough clues to figure out what happened and dissect it for you.
I’m not sure if that’s part of being introverted or shy or some other issue which I probably have, but I can’t really interact so openly with strangers. Someone expecting me to explicitly state how I feel would make me uncomfortable. I do that with friends, strangers are too much of an unknown card which I observe with suspicion.
Beatrice:
Same here. That has little to do with my being introverted, though, and a whole lot more to do with other issues. Of course, this will vary from individual to individual. It’s not just because of my being introverted that I prefer to quietly listen and observe when around a group of people for the first time.
That said, I’ve been told off for sitting quietly and paying attention. “It’s creepy, how you listen to people.” “You’re very intense, you know. It’s unsettling.” “You watch people. Why do you do that?”
Eeesh. Being alone is much easier.
…
…Gharghraghrbbllffff… *quietly headdesks in a corner*
@Caine
I’ve gotten similar reactions. It’s hard for me to understand, because when I say something it’s because I mean to say it. I don’t suffer from pressure to fill silence with meaningless talk. So I assume that when other people say things, they mean to say it and that I need to pay attention. It baffles me when it turns out they didn’t want me to.
Mythbri, I’ve come to the conclusion that people are so unaccustomed to actually being listened to, they simply don’t know how to react when someone does.
See? It’s impossible to please people.
One of the reasons I’ve stopped going dancing with friends is that they would always badger me about not having fun. I dance when I want to (mostly to please them), but I like to sit and sip my drink, listening to music and watching people, occasionally chatting with friends. They wouldn’t understand and keep asking why I’m not having fun, even get insulted because they thought I was in a bad mood. And up to that point I was actually having a good time.
You’re supposed to detect subtle clues of social intent, but be blindingly obvious in communicating your mood. Can’t see much sense or balance there.
Caine
Thanks for this. This mirrors my experience almost entirely. I much prefer solitary activities (making music, reading, watching movies, etc.) to social gatherings. This has caused problems sometimes, because friends will think that I’m isolating myself from them. And I guess I AM, but not because I don’t like hanging out with them, just because I need a LOT of time to myself after being around even people I know well and genuinely enjoy being around (the friends I’ve kept for years are the ones that understand this and are willing to allow me that time). And situations where I’m expected to be around people I don’t know? Yeah, all performance. And the thing is, if I go to play music live, I can deal with that. Because performing is what I’m there to DO, and there’s a set beginning and end point, and I know what I’m supposed to be doing at any particular moment. Once I come off stage, though, and I’m expected to deal with people coming up and wanting to tell me how well they thought I did or how much they enjoyed the show or anything like that, it becomes INCREDIBLY exhausting. Then I’m performing in an entirely different context, one where there isn’t any set script or cutoff time. Afterwards I need a lot of recovery time. I appreciate your ability to describe this in such a clear way, and I might have to borrow your explanation for my own use next time I have to explain to someone why I’d rather stay at home than go to some party or event with them.
@Caine
That’s a perfect description of how introverts function, because that’s almost me. My only exception is if I’m given something to do at a party, like last weekend where I mixed and hustled shots like a fiend during the CONvergence room parties, then I’m pretty comfy engaging (it’s still pretty damned exhausting, though, probably even more so, but my social anxiety pretty much demands I feel weird just sitting and observing).
It’s rough explaining how both introversion and SA are actually different.
Even nerds are not this whiny. Comic-con, AWA, Dragoncon, Gencon and the like have had these policies for years with minimal complaints about them.
I can only surmise that skeptics have not yet reached the low plateau attained by nerds.
It’s not so much about how I communicate my mood, since no matter how many times I smilingly assured them I was having fun, it wouldn’t make a difference. I acted in a way that doesn’t align with the way people are expected to have fun in a bar with a dancing floor. And dog forbid we don’t conform to the majority.
Chiptuneist:
Oh gods, me too. After a serious social outing, I’ll often need one to three months of seclusion in order to recover. I used to be able to bounce back faster when I was younger, but that was about a hundred years ago. Thankfully, my friends grok when I say “in hiding mode” and leave me be.
Borrow away. It can help to have a way that succinctly describes your situation. It’s much nicer when the people around you have a clue or three.
GAH, the next time someone pokes me and tells me to “go have fun!” or “mingle” or any such shit while I’m having a perfectly wonderful time sitting in my own personal area with a drink, listening to the music and observing others and thinking… I probably won’t do anything drastic, but that bothers the fuck out of me.
WOW, and just to make sure that this was in context, I scrolled back up to read your past few comments, and you already described this almost exactly.
Chiptuneist:
Oh yes, me too. It’s almost like having a hangover. I’m completely wrung out and depressed physically, kind of like the way marathoners will be worn down and prone to getting sick after the race.
Anri,
I thought we were having a friendly discussion. Apparently not. My bad.
No, I don’t need you to spell out anything out for me, thank you for asking so kindly. I have been following this for a year now and I can and have come to my own conclussions, as any self respecting freethinker would.
I never said sexual harassment or sexism are not worth my time. I have been fighting them all my life. I have been the victim of both, many times. And I’m not saying these issues are not worth discussing, of course they are! but here in these blogs, it’s become a he said-she said and frankly I’m tired of it.
I agree with Greta and PZ. It’s really not that complicated. Common sense and decency should guide us all, not just in conferences, but everywhere, everyday and if you don’t get it, then maybe you shouldn’t call yourself a freethinker, much less a humanist.
So, yeah, we are a house divided and yeah, it makes us look foolish. There, I said it.
Niki M:
Yes, it is. A lot of people have mixed up ideas about introversion, most likely because us introverted types aren’t terribly interested in explaining it all. Heh.
Like you, I’ll happily do a task at a gathering and probably come across as less intense/whatever to others, because I’m keeping busy.
Wow. There are other telephonophobic people here too?
I hate the telephone. There are three people I will answer when my phone rings; everyone else goes to voicemail.
The first time my mother held out the telephone to me and asked “do you want to talk to daddy?” I stared at the thing in speechless horror and backed away from it as though it might reach out and abduct me.
It’s gotten worse since then. Being on the phone to all but very close friends feels to me like being brought before an invisible tribunal. Being on the phone with very close friends is simply frustrating because disembodied voices in my ear somehow lose that quality of reassurance that friends’ voices usually carry.
The only reason I even have a phone is because some people insist on contacting me that way, even though I have never, ever picked up when they called, and most of them get an email reply to whatever query they are making.
Text messaging by cell phone can be useful but I chafe at the character limits.
I love the internet. One finds family in the strangest places.
LET IT BE DIVIDED! It’s making SOME people look foolish, certainly, but that doesn’t apply across the board. I’m more than willing to throw my lot in with the side of the house discussing these issues, thanks. If people think that’s foolish, I say it says a hell of a lot more about them than it does about me.
Caerie:
That is perfect. I’m not sure what else to say, I just found that to be a great description of the experience.
stardust:
You said a mouthful of nothing. We don’t look foolish at all and it doesn’t matter one fucking whit if you or others think we do. Those of us who are fighting sexism on a daily basis, educating and engaging in consciousness raising are not foolish in any sense of the world.
If you really believe that shit you just spilled, feel free to have a wander over to the slimepit or Tfoot’s yootube fan base or a zillion other places where there are misogynistic douchecakes all over the place. Let ’em know they are being silly, okay? Maybe if you tell them a rape joke first, just to let them know you’re cool, ya know…they like that sort of thing.
chiptuneist,
Oh yes, why don’t you mingle.
Because making small talk is just what I want to do instead of having fun. Ugh, small talk, big awkwardness.
I thought we might avoid passive-aggressive shaming. Apparently not. My bad.
And, given that you would like the discussion to end, what would you say to someone say, 9 months into that year-long following-to-decision? 3 months? 3 weeks?
And, since there is no value to listening to people talk about their experiences on this subject, we’re done now, yes?
Or it is just a matter of when you’re tired, everyone else should be tired, too?
And if common sense were common, or sensible, or reliable, or consistent, and if decency was universal, and equitable, and typically given much weight, we would not have to have the conversation at all.
But this is not the case.
I like to make the joke that the only thing less common than common sense is common courtesy. I also like to say, much more seriously, that if common sense were sufficient to navigate the world, we would never have had to invent science.
In the US at least, before nearly endless and (I don’t doubt) at times tedious discussion, it was common sense that blacks and whites shouldn’t date. Just common sense, just decency. It took one hell of a lot of discussion for at least a reasonable number of people to finally stop regarding it that way.
Well, if we are divided on this topic, as are foolish, and should look so, and will look so until we are no longer divided. Ignoring the division won’t actually make it go away.
INTP, baby,
clenched tentacle salute
Chas:
Yeah, me too. This came up a bit ago, on TZT, I think. There are a fair amount of INTPs here.
*googles INTP*
My most common result is INFP. Related, but not quite there. I’m sort of crashing the INTP party and sneaking a little punch.
OK, I see what happened. You think I said the discussion about sexism needs to end, when I was talking about sexism and sexual harassment AT ATHEIST conferences. To me, it is really quite simple. Read what Greta Cristina said.
Anyway, it doesn’t matter. PZ is right. Commenting here felt like talking and listening to a mob of anti social, clumsy nerds. Greta is right. I’ll be one of those who will stay away from these fora and the conferences too.
INTJ. Very much so.
stardust:
Great, glad that’s settled. Now stick the flounce, please. You’ve done enough whining for one thread.
INTJ. So there.
I despise the telephone. I rarely make calls and I hate to receive them. When the phone rings, the person at the other end is convinced that what they’re interested in is more important than what I’m doing right now.
I can put up with the phone for business reasons and I don’t mind calling someone whose job depends on them answering the phone. But don’t call me just to chit-chat. And don’t complain that I’ve got you on speaker. That means I’ve got both hands busy. Also when you call me tell me who you are, don’t expect me to recognize your voice. Violate these few simple rules and the click you hear will mean you are soloing.
It was awhile back in college, but I was an ENFJ. I didn’t understand it then, either. I think I must have cheated on the test or something.
mouthyb: off topic, thanks to your indefatigable link finding, there’s a Pharynguwiki page going up with your resources on it. See TET. *bows to*
*raise a paw*
The invention of instant messaging and texting has saved my already piddling social life. It’s not even a fear anymore. I get annoyed when the damned thing rings and unless it’s an expected call or from my partner (therefore possible emergency, or he’d just text me too), I let it go to voicemail.
Thanks, everybody. There are always good side effects of sharing stories – I never quite understood why spouse has so much trouble with phones, and he’s never been able to articulate it, but you’ve all made me “get it” a lot more than I did before.
Pteryxx: SWEEEEEEEEET!!
Huh. INTJ also.
I’m a MBIB.
(Myers-Briggs Is Bullshit.)
Ixchel:
You hardly need to be a genius to figure that out. Took me about 2 seconds to figure out how easy it would be to manipulate it waaay back when I was made to take it.
I know this is supposed to provoke a “oh, huh, now I get it” response, so…. what? who’s not capable of having a conversation with someone across the room from them, nevermind a mere 2 meters away?
phones are torture devices. this is a fact.
I don’t want to talk on the phone with people I know, either.
part of it is social anxiety which manifests as “stage fright” in the part where you’re waiting for the other person to pick up (and do I ever love being put on hold…); part of it is being slightly hard of hearing, and there not being lips for me to read.
part of it is that I don’t like real-time conversations except face-to-face (and those only because by definition they only happen when I feel sociable enough to go where there’s people, while all other ones tend to try to invade my private space)
“social hangover”. I like it, it’s very accurate and descriptive
Phone talking doesn’t allow for the kind of dead-air that naturally occurs in meat-space conversation.
That was something we all noticed at a meetup last year – for future events we need a dark quiet room for people to go sit and not talk to anybody and recharge when needed. Company is good, but so is an hour of “leave me alone please” here and there during.
Carlie:
That’s a good idea. Very thoughtful.
Quoted and bolded for fucking truth. Too long in a group without respite leaves me twitchy and growlly. Whether or not they know this about me is a marker of just now well new friends have gotten to know me. I’m reasonable, engaging and on occasion even amusing in social situations to the point that folks often won’t believe me when I tell them there’s only so much company I can stand at one time.
Chillout spaces are an excellent idea.
Also, can we please not jump *immediately* on people who say they’re tired of this? It’s a fairly natural response, after more than a year, and it need not imply that we’re in the wrong for continuing. Check for clarification first?
I’m sick of this. I’m sure lots of you are sick of this – not excepting the best of the fighters. I bet Rebecca Watson is fucking fed up with this shit. It’s outrageous that we have to keep on arguing for simple human decency to be extended to women. We do, of course, because the problem’s not going to go away by itself. But FFS, it *is* wearying. WHY WON’T THEY FUCKING LEARN!!! AAAARRGGHH!!!!
I have immense respect for the people who can continue over and over again to educate the educable and mock the morans, because I can’t do it. I’ve got nothing but swearing in allcaps.
Alethea, “stardust” was given ample opportunity and chose to use it to whine. Anri even requested clarification to no avail. I’m not only tired of the same old crap, like everyone else, I’m more tired of all the idiots who show up only to whine “I’m tired of this, talk about something else!”
No one is forcing them to read or comment. It’s not like sexism/feminism threads are the sole content at Pharyngula.
Amen. I even saw a couple of science papers reviewed (yum, non-zombie brain food)…
I know it feels like no one ever learns but I think there’s a sampling bias going on here. We only hear and engage with those who are wrong and won’t shut up about it. There are plenty of people who have got it, I’m one of them, and most don’t say anything because they’re embarrassed about their former idiocy. And even when they do say something it tends not to impact as much because it’s said only once and doesn’t raise the adrenaline or bloodpressure in the way that the douchcanoes do.
So there’s sort of a “condemnation bias?”
Good point about this specific instance, Caine. I’m probably feeling over-defensive. Because I’m seriously fucking sick of this shit, and I would like to say so without worrying about it being taken wrong.
FossilFishy, that is an encouraging thought. Thank you.
*sigh*
Alright, see, this is one of the problems. Because this is a subject I specifically covered in mysecond post to you right here:
So, the discussion could cover either or both topics, as you see fit.
The fact that you either didn’t understand that, or forgot about it is one reason we continue to require discussion on this topic: convenient memory and lack of reading comprehension.
You mean the post with the 94 discussion comments?
Nope, I won’t – I’m tired of the discussion.
(See how silly that sounds?)
From Greta’s post:
(emphasis added)
Does that sound like someone who didn’t enjoy the conference, or won’t be going back?
Are you arguing that Greta is right about the conference having a good policy in place (which it certainly seemed to – because of all of the discussion that went into crafting it!), but that she’s wrong about it being a good time?
It’s time to either learn to express yourself more clearly, or stop getting your back up when people misunderstand you.
Lastly, there are 10 posts, by my current count, on the Pharyugula main page. One of them covers this topic. If you didn’t want to read any more about this topic…. why did you pursue this thread?
If you didn’t want to talk any more about this topic… why did you post?
If you didn’t want to have any more discussion about this topic… why did you bother responding?
Azkyroth: That, my good person of quality, was a thing of beauty and a joy to behold. Does it say bad things about me that I live for puns? Yes, yes, I suspect that it must…
I came to the “condemation bias” hypothesis through personal anecdote as a retail manager responsible for the care and feeding of minimum wage
slavesemployees for whom it was often their first job. It is an unavoidable fact of such front line retail work that you’re going to encounter assholes and because you’re at work you have no way to get away from them.I used to tell the employees to pay attention to just how often those bad encounters really happened. For every one of those they would literally have hundreds if not thousands of interactions where everyone was perfectly reasonable and even amiable. It was just that the bad customers punched your fight or flight button and because of the constraints of being at work you couldn’t do anything about it but seethe.
My advice was that after a close encounter of the asshole kind it was best to take the next customer who seemed reasonable and not in a hurry and give them way-the-fucking-hell-over-the-top service. What usually happened in those cases was that customer would respond to your kindness in a like manner and all of a sudden humanity didn’t seem so overwhelmingly awful.
Pay attention to the good ones, acknowledge them, not just to encourage their behaviour but to remind yourself that most of humanity isn’t really all that bad.
FTR, I catch a lot of posts by lurkers who show up to express thanks for the education they’ve received, for having their minds changed and their awareness raised, etc., and thank us all for fighting the good fight. I always make sure to say thank you to them, along with a few other happy words.
Those folks help, a lot. However, what we have to deal with the majority of the time are those who stop in to *repeatedly* whine how they are tired of this, what the fuck is wrong with all of you, why won’t you talk about what I want, yada, yada, yada.
It’s fairly easy for me and a lot of other regulars, to figure out who is worth extra effort and genuinely curious about issues and who is in just for whinging.
All that said, I think it’s fair to say that all the regulars here are damn tired of having this discussion, especially as we keep getting to repeat ourselves incessantly, same points, same education, same cites, etc. Of course we’re tired of it, but ya gotta do what you gotta do, eh?
“I hear the sounds that come out of people’s mouths, but translating that into understandable speech can be very difficult for me. I had to go through speech therapy because there were certain phonemes I simply wasn’t aware existed and so they were entirely absent from my speech.”
* ding *
That was the light bulb turning on in my head. Thanks Caerie. :)
I finally realized in my late twenties that I didn’t process auditory information the way most people did. I just figured that if people can be non-NT in other ways then it makes sense that there would be some variation in this too.
But I never connected it with the fact that I had speech therapy for several years in elementary school. It makes me think that I may benefit from being diagnosed or at least looking at tips/literature for people with auditory processing disorders.
Also, I suspect this may help with some issues I have been having at work…
Beatrice
You and I should go sit and and listen to club music while drinking some time. :)
Yeah, I’m not very good at this. I get angry, and then I tend to skim read to avoid the worst, but maybe also get overly hopeful about possibilities. Sorry if you felt I was casting aspersions at you, Caine. (Did you feel that? Am I being over-defensive again?)
Caine@243
I’m another of those lurkers. I want you all to know I appreciate the education, and the dedication you’ve shown arguing with complete idiots. It’s making a difference, even though it may not seem like it at times.
I know I’ve learned a lot about feminism, privilege, and a bunch of other things that I was only vaguely aware of before. As a white, cis female, disabled person, I’ve learned about privilege I didn’t know I had. This helps me see society in an entirely different way than I did before, and I appreciate the eye-opening. Thank you.
Hope this all made sense, I’m one beer past my bedtime.
Alethea:
No! Not at all. :) That was just a general tossing this out there, spurred on by FossilFishy’s mention of all those who do benefit but don’t speak up.
We do get a lot of people who do speak up and I know there are many more who never do. Sometimes, it’s difficult to remember that there are a lot more people reading than commenting, especially when we’re seriously worn down and tired as all hells of a subject.
Kaessa:
Yes, it made sense and thank you. I remember you posting before, your posts are always good and enjoyable to read.
You point out something that is really difficult for a lot of people to come to terms with – that even if they are in a minority or oppressed class in some respects, they still have privilege and they still need to be aware of that and how it colours their views on a variety of issues.
That was a difficult moment for me, dealing with the privilege I do have in life, rather than focusing on the privilege I don’t have in life. Tricksy stuff, people. :D
Oh good! Thanks.
Delurking to add that I’m another telephonophobe, as is my boyfriend(but together we back each other up enough to function like one phone using person, just about cx). It’s awesome that this discussion can be made here and taken seriously(not that I expected differently from Pharyngula people) C:. I also have trouble with processing speech. Some accents don’t get through at all and a lot of song lyrics come through as gibberish, something to do with lengthened or shortened syllables messing up my sorting facilities, maybe? I also have a really bland accent and somehow failed at picking up my parents’/the local accent and dialect, wondered if that was connected.
And dammit, on topic now, I’m socially awkward mostly because I’m constantly considering other people. I don’t want to creep people out or get in the way, I’m happy to let unfamiliar people initiate contact so I’m sure it’s wanted, with people I know well I offer an obvious gesture. I’m not a hugely huggy person as it is, happy to reciprocate to most offers but I freeze up when hugged or otherwise touched(the guiding thing? AARGH) without warning. After that happens I usually automatically apologise… *sigh*
Rumtopf, as you can read, you’re hardly alone with those issues/problems. It’s terrific, being able to discuss such things with others.
This thread has been/is tremendously useful to me. In concert with my son’s recent diagnosis of autism, I am having to reconsider A LOT of my past life.
Upon this reflection, I can say honestly that my social skills level was nearly zero until age 35; couple that with extremely high intelligence, and my intelligence/social skills ratio approached infinity.
What turned me around? It started out with witnessing a death. The ensuing desperation not to waste the rest of my life had me getting a job as an employment counselor — with no experience whatsoever.
I was suddenly seeing 5 – 7 people per day, in intense, one-on-one situations, trying to understand and solve their problems. Old people, young people, people with spouses, people with children, people of different races, religions, languages, cultural backgrounds. I remember leaving work with tinnitus, a pounding headache, and a stiff jaw for the first 6 – 8 months as I figured out and practiced basic communication.
There’s a lot more to tell, but 2 1/2 years at that job was the best teaching I could ever have encountered.
Ever since hugging became a common thing (where I’m from anyway) I’ve gone by the basic rule that I mostly don’t hug men except when I do. With women I offer to shake hands the first time and on subsequent times wait for her to make her move, unless I’m pretty certain she would want a hug in which case I move for a hug and watch her reaction.
For example if I’m on my way out of a social gathering and everyone there hands out goodbye hugs to a girl who I’ve not met before and it’s my turn to say goodbye, I’m still inclined to move for a handshake, unless she’s hugging a bunch of guys who I know that she hasn’t met before. In that case I wait for her move or maybe even tentatively move for a hug.
I guess there’s just no perfect way. Asking is a great solution of course, but a lot of times there simply isn’t time to ask and wait for an honest answer.
Of course by now a lot of people think hugging is passé and cheek kissing is the thing…
This has been refreshing to read. It is somewhat soothing to see, that I am not alone with my problems. Of course I “knew” this, rationally, but “knowing” is not knowing.
So just to add my personal crutch for dealing with telephone – I usually have to walk with my head down observing the floor, or the wall. It keeps me busy enough not to get distracted by other visuall stimuli (floor is usually dull) an not to want to fidget with my hands. But whenever I can I either prefer e-mail or I delegate the whole phone-thingy to my subordinates.
Myers-Briggs Type Indicator is certaily easy to fool, but when performing the test for my own need I do not need to do so, so I feell pretty confident that I am I(X)TJ. All descriptions fit me perfectly, and although there is some horoscpope-reading-effect for sure, I am certainly not extroverted. Which, of course, also explains a lot.
Bu on topic – ASP people completely aside, introverted people do not invade personal space of others with unwanted attention at all, much less with handshakes or hugs (unless coerced throught peer pressure, which certainly does happen among men – I lack the knowledge or experience if it happens among women). So they too do not need these rules to spell out for them, but they are the ones who most benefit from spelling them out.
While we’re throwing things out there…
About people who aren’t very touchy-feely. Who especially don’t appreciate unapproved physical contact from strangers or insufficiently close friends. That doesn’t mean we eschew touch in general, that we don’t need a hug every now and then. Maybe I should talk singular, only about myself, but it’s sort of easier to put it in general terms. I know that maybe someone had made it too obvious in the past that they are uncomfortable with simple things like a hand brushing their shoulder and I know you “normal” people can’t read our minds, but maybe take into consideration that we have some issues which make us uncomfortable with touching, but we also need it sometimes. And I’m not asking anyone to be a mind reader, but that “asking if someone wants a hug” can work for friends too, not just about meeting unknown people at a conference. There’s still all that background noise, social norms and all that can influence our answers, but there is certainly less of that pressure with our friends. And I feel I’m making this into a minefield where I’m expecting “normal” people (whatever that is) to read all these tiny clues, and probably read minds too. And maybe this is just the lack of coffee and sleep and lack of human contact talking… Am I making any sense?
I also have issues with telephones, although I’m usually okay once I’m actually talking to someone – my issue is that I get scared before calling, going over and over what I need to say and worrying that I’ll do it wrong somehow. I guess “stage fright” is a pretty good way to describe it – thanks, Jadehawk!
I am generally better with people I know well, provided I have something specific to say. I still can’t call anyone except my parents for social chat. A lot of that is shyness and not wanting to impose. My default assumption tends to be that people aren’t interested in me and approaching them would be being a nuisance. This means that I find initiating any form of social interaction difficult – and it’s especially hard doing so over the phone, because I don’t know what they’re doing that I might be interrupting. At least at a party I can see that they’re not in the middle of something.
As someone with social skills issues, I know that I sometimes may act in a way that may make another person uncomfortable. But when I realize I may have done that, I have never tried to make excuses for or defend my behavior.
I feel mortified, I apologize profusely for any offense, make amends as best I can, and try to never let it happen again.
So, no, I’m not buying into this, “I have social skills issues, so I have the right to violate your boundaries, and don’t blame me if I do.”
That summarizes the entire thread.
@jefrir
This!
Though I rarely call my parents even for social chat either. At least not by phone. For some reason I can manage better via skype, especially if using the video thing because I then have some visual cues.
There’s one person who I have had long phone calls with, but that’s because I see him so rarely, and he lives on the other side of the country, and even those are rare because of the ‘don’t want to interrupt in case he is in the middle of something’ thing.
Email is fine. Text/IM/iMessage are all good.
I can and do use the phone for work purposes, but there it’s purely task oriented. I call to find something out, or to inform someone of something that is time sensitive and that I want to communicate or find out now rather than wait for them to read the email. And it’s a lot harder with people I don’t know (heck, I’ve recently started seeing a counsellor to see if I can get some advice for dealing with anxiety attacks and I made the appointment for that via email). But again if it is purely task oriented I can do it. And I’m usually fine once the call is made, it’s nerving myself up to make the call that is the hard part.
When I’m with friends and chatting then the conversation can have lulls and peaks, and drift into silence for a bit. This is fine in person, especially if you’re doing craft related stuff etc. On a phone though that dead air just doesn’t work and I stress that I don’t know what to talk about and that I’m being boring.
I’m mostly introverted too. I can be in large crowds if necessary, though having common interest helps there, provided I know that I can go and be quiet somewhere for a bit if I need to. Small groups of friends fine. Also yes, if you’ve got something to do or focus on that helps a lot. Whether it’s concentrating on a panel at a convention, (audience or on the panel) or what I was doing today, which was our local boardgaming group. It’s quite a few people in a room, but because I am only interacting with a few of them at a time, and we have the game to focus on, that is all fine.
On the hug front, I’m fine with people I’m comfortable with, provided signalling of intent is done beforehand. Sometimes less familiar people if I’ve been enthused about something and am on an enthusiasm high (though I definitely don’t hug people who don’t want to be). I’ve some friends who have days when they are good with it, and others that they are not. So I ask. And all is good. Making someone else uncomfortable will not make me feel better after all.
I just want to thank everyone who participated in this discussion. I’m NT but I am extremely introverted and the opposite of gregarious. To the extent that it’s been a problem in my professional life (ugh, the networking and the constant socialing and the constant talking! UGH!). I am also extremely non-assertive, but I’m trying to work on that.
I guess it’s just nice to hear other people also experience social interactions the way I do – most of the world I live in seems dedicated to telling me that there’s something seriously, severely wrong with me for being so introverted and non-gregarious, for needing time alone after social interactions.
So thanks. Sometimes it’s great to be reminded that no, it’s not that there’s anything wrong with me, it’s that the world just isn’t made with people like me in mind.
Knitting has actually been really helpful to me with the difficulty socialising – both because joining a knitting group provided a ready made group to socialise with at a set time, and because knitting provides something to do during what would otherwise be awkward silences. Meeting to do something rather than solely to socialise takes some of the pressure off, and makes socialising much more comfortable.
Hairhead,
I just wanted to second everything you said re your teenage son. Although not (now) thought to be on the spectrum, mine has severe communication disorder which massively impacts social interactions. I think it’s unlikely he would behave in the way we’re discussing in this thread (he’s more likely to hang back on the fringes of any social interaction) but if he ever did the fact that he’s non-NT would NOT be a reason to dismiss the problem – it would mean that I hadn’t succeeded in helping him learn acceptable behaviour. (OT, I’m cautiously encouraged by the fact that he seems to be beginning to get the hang of acceptable hugging with his male acquaintances – so he has at least a chance of learning to “get” those kinds of cues (OOT, blokes around here don’t usually hug much, but he knows a couple of fellow musicians who do)).
And Azkyroth and others, yes. I see it in him especially, it’s very hard – and often very intimidating – to have to deal with interactions when it does NOT “just come naturally” and it hurts like hell to get it wrong, get rejected. If he doesn’t get a specific invitation he will never just go along to a social gathering (even if “everybody” is going). Which means he’s been to precisely two in his life so far.
Pteryxx
That’s fascinating – and totally brilliant.
.
All of which is a bit of a tangent, but I just wanted to say thank you to people who discussed this whole area of communication so generously (and seconding a resounding “fuck off” to those who deliberately and with harassment aforethought co-opt the “socially-awkward” excuse when in reality they are just being fucking arrogant and rude, and in addition doing a massive dis-service to those who have genuine social communication issues).
Huh. I thought that was just me.
It would have spared me some sadness if I had realized sooner that I wasn’t unwelcome at all those classmates’ birthday parties, it was just that I didn’t realize everyone from the class was automatically invited (me included).
Even after I finally figured out the concept and how spectacularly I’ve been failing it since childhood, I have done it again.
Actually I would lean that way a bit myself. The “advantage” I have over SonSpawn is that I might be able to sort-of-indirectly – or even directly, maybe, if I know the others involved well enough – ask “can I come too” whereas he pretty much can’t do that (and sadly, it may be just as well he can’t since the answer is all too likely to be “no” in most cases.
I’d say that I’m somewhere in between. Sometimes I’m too convinced that no one could possibly want to hang out with me, so there is really no point in asking and other times I manage to force myself to ask anyway.
This is me all the way.
*blink*
“automatic invites” are a thing? why didn’t anyone tell me?
And I still had trouble getting this even half a year ago. I thought I could go out with coworkers only if someone specifically asked me, even though it was arranged during lunch time as an “everyone from the office” thing.
you know, I’d still think that. Except at this point I’d probably just finnagle a way of asking “can I come, too” without having to actually say those words.
or, you know, just go home and not bother with socializing
Very often after socializing, I regret not doing that instead.
I do think the cases we’re talking about here are deliberate. However, for the sake of completeness, let me mention that there aren’t “the rules” around handshakes/hugs. The rules differ a lot within Western culture, even within small countries like Austria, and between generations or even smaller age cohorts. Case in point:
It’s not European, it’s specifically French. I grew up with any kind of kisses being strictly reserved to lovers and nuclear families. (It’s universal within France, though.) Also, it does not involve a hug, and it does not involve cheeks touching cheeks; just lips touching cheeks.
In Miami it probably comes from Latin America. Not sure how their conventions differ from the French ones.
Bingo! We have a winner. Being socially awkward is usually the same as being afraid of making other people uncomfortable!
Smile? That’s definitely American. Elsewhere, you shouldn’t exactly look unfriendly, but don’t smile over serious business before it’s concluded.
Thirded.
QFT.
In 2003 I spent about 3 weeks on a dig in France. One guy asked me every day how I was. Hello? He was around me all day long, he knew full well how I was and didn’t need to ask. When I asked him about this, it turned out it was politeness.
Apart from your voice… probably neither nor. Doing a survey is much like being a machine: you know exactly what to say and when to say it; there’s practically no social interaction, you just throw the questions out there and record the answers. It’s much different when you want something.
QFT.
So, so true!
Some people are always afraid of being spied on or something. Always, no matter what the situation. Or perhaps they actually confuse you with a leopard crouching behind the
bushpot plant.QFFT.
dead air: silence
on telephone, usually silence that may be making one or both people anxious
If you would not claim that these harassment policies were the one and only way to determine inappropriate behaviour you would not have to defend their formulations. If you would just admit that these policies are general, vague, and nonsensical because it does not matter for the most part what they say and you don’t want to provide loopholes for people then you would not need this discussion. But instead you revere these policies as if they were divinely inspired by the local God of social justice and wonder why people start scrutinizing the wording.
Ah, well, since no one has claimed that these harassment policies are the one and only way to determine inappropriate behaviour,
the rest of your comment is irrelevant.
anotheratheist:
And if people didn’t keep looking for loopholes, we wouldn’t need this discussion, either.
Personally, that’s the solution I prefer: that people don’t try as hard as they do to make women feel uncomfortable. The fact there are people who look for the loopholes kinda make this discussion necessary.
I can’t help myself, though, because the end is so stupid.
I would love it if you goddamn idiot trolls would scrutinize the actual wording instead of popping up with your ill-informed assumptions.
Funny, some drafts have been published, and I see no references or citations in your fuckwitted and ignorant rant. If you wish to discuss specifics, why aren’t you? You need something other than attitude, inane attitude, ignorant atttude, and head up the ass attitude if you want an intellectual discussion. Which starts with the concept you can and will be wrong.
I think I’ve left an impression that Croatians have endless parties where everyone is invite, in this thread. :)
I was mostly talking about things like :
except if we are talking about school, some kid having a birthday party that is “the whole class” thing. Everyone could come but I’m pretty sure everyone wasn’t equally welcome.
Although, going to elementary school with some spoiled rich kids might have something to do with these big parties.
I think it’s more of an elementary school thing. At least in the US. It’s bad manners to selectively give anything in classes, so in some areas anyway there are events where everyone is invited.
At least, so I understand. My school wasn’t really like that (or possibly, simply wasn’t yet when I went through) and I had no friends.
Uh, that’s what I’d do in case of doubt. If I didn’t know everyone was supposed to come, and if nobody had walked up to me and explicitly invited me, I wouldn’t doubt that I was not invited.
Definitely. A party for 20 to 25 people… :-/