I don’t care what his next movie is about. I’ll pay to go see it.
I notice who’s doing the interview: Libertarians. Screw ’em.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
I don’t care what his next movie is about. I’ll pay to go see it.
I notice who’s doing the interview: Libertarians. Screw ’em.
“Maybe you’re a shitty cameraman…”
bwahaahahaha
First comment yay! He’s good. I always liked him, loved his Palin take down.
Drat chigau(), you beat me to it.
Methinks that cameraman’s statistician teacher was one of ‘the 10%’…
LOVE it!!
Warning: I hate “First!” comments. Don’t even try to make them — I will delete them.
Be careful WogerWabbit.
At Sb, PZ disemvoweled people for “Firsting”.
—-
How do you spell “careful” in ElmerFudd?
So you think shitty teachers should be paid as much as good ones?
First Brad Pitt and now Matt Damon (admittedly for different reasons) – looks like I may have to rethink my views on Hollywood actors a little.
No maybe about it, Matt. Next time shut your fucking mouth and point the lens, asshole.
Of course, the irony of a cameraman interrupting an interview to share his two cents about job competence is for sure lost on those two.
Of course, the flip side of this is that, if you want top-quality teachers, you should be prepared to pay top dollar for them.
Yes, there are great teachers who have an abiding passion for what they do. But there are also people who would have been great teachers, but they decided that they didn’t want to get paid shit work for a shit job and so went into something where they get insulted less and paid more.
Start paying teachers more and insulting them less, and the available talent pool will grow.
I know, it’s some sort of radical socialist notion about supply, demand, and the cost of goods and services.
Maybe we should listen to the Tea Partiers and the Randites and apply the same reasoning to CEOs. Pay them minimum wage, and only the CEOs who love what they do will stick with their jobs.
I swear, those sociopathic nutjobs make me furious….
Cheers,
b&
See?
Told you.
@Juice:
How do you determine a “Shitty” teacher? Standardized tests? If teaching to a test is all that determines ability or worth, I had plenty of coaches that would probably get high marks…they taught straight from the book, handed out precreated tests and worksheets, etc. Most of the class learned the material.
The teachers that I actually remember are the teachers that got us to think about and understand what we were learning, and explore beyond what was coming up on next month’s standardized test. There may have been material on the test we hadn’t covered, but I’m sure we all had a better understanding of the portions we did in fact cover.
Is that anywhere in the discussion? Is that at all relevant?
I think moronic libertarian trolls should go fuck a moving truck bumper as much as—let’s leave it at that; there are no other kinds.
“Maybe you’re a shitty cameraman.”
So. Much. Win.
juice
What are the evaluation criteria for “shitty”?
Who sets the criteria?
Oh sorry I had no idea. I’m a n00b here.
chigau() it’d be cwavefuv.
P.S : Is “lol”-ing at the end of every sentence frowned upon too? Just asking.
Hurray for a sane comment. Darn, now I will have to go see his next movie too. The whole *teachers stink, don’t pay them much* but *they better be heroes and accomplish miracles with our children* thing has always driven me nuts.
I am also waiting for an explanation of where all these new miracle teachers are supposed to come from to replace all the teachers they want to fire from “failing schools.” Lets see – little support, below average pay, national condescension, chronic underfunding and long hours – sure, people are coming out in droves to do this work.
Here in the UK, teaching is a bloody awful job – sometimes rewarding, but mostly bloody awful. The sheer amount of paperwork needed to get through a day’s lessons would put a Foreign Office civil servant to blame; there’s pressure from the kids to maintain order in a class of 30+ in mostly unstreamed subject lessons, and unbearable pressure from above when Senior Management Teams form cliques, treat schools like businesses or their own personal lunch-moneybox, and harass any dissent down into a bleeding heap of stress-related illnesses and constructive dismissal.
/breathe
And this is not helped by the crazy system of monitoring and assessment that involves paperwork flying out of your ears, staged ‘guided tours’ around the school by aforementioned SMT when OFSTED call, and pupils beyond count slipping through the gaps in between all this because there is simply not then enough time or manpower to teach and guide to the staff’s best abilities.
It’s fine to say that quality of teaching should be assessed, and poor or struggling teachers advised appropriately, but the issue of providing quality education is such a complex and localised problem that a country-wide ‘one-size-fits-all’ method has actually worsened the problem.
I would have definitely gone into teaching here if the situation had been different; teachers valued, smaller class sizes, better HR and union activity, better pay, a supportive environment – however, having seen the inside of school life through my own education, work experience, a career as a teaching assistant and pastoral worker, and family involved in teaching, I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole. And I say without shame that I would have been a good one.
Is that anywhere in the discussion? Is that at all relevant?
That was the central point of the discussion with Matt Damon.
Matt Damon says that he doesn’t have any incentives to be a movie star. Uh huh.
So do them for $40k/yr.
How do you determine a “Shitty” teacher? Standardized tests?
That’s not how I determine them.
Smart and Cute! It goes to show that Matt Damon had great human capital growing up. His momma must be proud.
Why do libertarians always make the most idiotic analogies?
…
Oh yeah, I forgot.
I am a recent graduate from a teaching program. Where I live tenure does nothing but require the school system to give you a reason for excusing you from employment allowing someone who is falsely accused to have a manner for recourse. What keeps shitty teachers teaching is principals not accessing job performance in a holistic manner and providing necessary improvement steps for teachers that are struggling. There is a long standing buddy system in many schools that is not likely to change any time soon. I am scared to death to teach in public schools. Not because of the money. Not because of the kids. Simply because the game of school politics is not something I will ever be good at. I want to teach. I want to pass on my own love of knowledge. I want my students to have the tools in their hands to further their own knowledge past what I can give them in my short time with them. I am scared that the system as it is now will only provide obstacles that make me feel like I am making no progress.
Juice: “So do them for $40k/yr”
Ahem…I would be happy to be a movie star for $40k/year. It’d be better than being a customer service rep for the same salary, as I am now.
…Just sayin’.
Matt Damon didn’t say that at all. He said that fear of being fired for doing a bad job wasn’t what made him work hard. That’s not remotely the same thing as saying he has no incentives.
No dipshit, Matt Damon said that job security was not his incentive for working hard.
“You think job insecurity is what makes me work hard?”
Uh huh.
And conflating ‘incentive’ with ‘money’ is just one way in which libertarian thinking conflicts with reality.
But by all means, please continue to post the Team America alongside your tu quoques if you think it’s going to distract from the fact that your listening skills ain’t all that up to snuff.
BTW, who’s paying you to comment here? If no one, then what’s your incentive for doing so?
Tenure: A well defined procedure to eliminate incompetents without losing good teachers to whim, age and cheaper newer teachers.
Teacher Salary Schedule: Predictable increased pay for experience and training. Not evil. Same system for pilots, judges, legislators and Doctors at Mayo Clinic. Has advantages when close collaboration is required, as in teaching.
Delurking in honor of the move. I like the new place, PZ!
On topic, I love Damon’s response, it was totally spot-on. I would gladly go through another year of my (few and far-between) shitty teachers if that meant that the amazing teachers I’ve had would be able to keep doing what they’re doing without the “incentive” of working without a safety net. Are they seriously talking about taking away tenure?
Interesting things about the video itself:
1) What the hell was with the inclusion of the crying scene in “Good Will Hunting”? I know that the people who edited the video are the same Libertarians doing the interview, but that didn’t even make any kind of statement. It was just random crying. Granted, I haven’t seen that movie, so maybe I’m missing context.
2) Most of “Shitty Cameraman’s” words are typed on the screen, except for this exchange:
The rest of his blathering is captioned. It’s as though “reason.tv” thought that if it didn’t acknowledge that his statement was unsupported, the viewers would think he was actually saying something worth answering.
Wow that was long. Shorter me: Yay teachers and Matt Damon! Boo reason.tv!
Can’t say I disagree with Jamy Ian Swiss’s characterization of libertarianism as a pesudoscience. It fails the Mencken Test (“there is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong”) nearly every time.
So did anyone else notice that the caption on Nancy
Carlsson-Paige didn’t even contani her name. She was just listed as “Matt Damon’s Mother”
and the failure of my </em> tag can be my homage to Tpyos
It is definitely an wrong to suggest that the problem with the system is tenure. And Matt Damon is mostly right, as long as he’s not suggesting job security and income somehow aren’t a factor too (and I don’t think he is suggesting that). Just the same, our educational system is antiquated. Math is taught as to make people hate math. Foreign language is taught as to make people never learn to speak. Money is wasted on parasitic consultants and vendors who gouge the district for their worthless products.
Competition may be wasteful in its own way, but it generally breeds better results and the alternatives are often worse. As long as people who’s hearts are in the right place let their distaste for commerce prevent them from considering all available options, we’re dooming our children to be stuck in the 19th century.
Matt’s even more awesome than I thought. As an aspiring teacher, I have to say that I’m glad SOMEONE is standing up for teachers.
what broke me up was the “long hours” comment. At least in Australia, this is a complete joke. Doesn’t he have friends who are teachers? They certainly do NOT work long hours, and have a LOT of days off. Here it is a standing joke. We also pay them fairly well.
But I love Matt’s comments – right on! None of us work for money.
So in Australia, your teachers don’t work an 8 hour shift trying to teach ungrateful and disruptive kids? They don’t follow that up with after school clubs and activities they may be in charge of, then go home to find a stack of 200+ homework assignments a day to grade, as well as tests, projects, planning lessons, and doing all the other paperwork that comes with being a teacher? And just because they get a day off, doesn’t mean they aren’t working at home. What a teacher does in the classroom is only part of what they do. I don’t know what they pay teachers in Australia, but it probably still isn’t enough.
So…Mr. Damon doesn’t have to work hard to get his next job? I suppose he worked hard to get his tenure, so, the Hollywood powers that be have to hire him for their movies. Do we watch his movies because he’s a good actor, or, is it that we should just watch his movies because he’s a good liberal. Oh, wait… I guess you are.
Heh. It was, actually, piss-poor camera work. Very sloppy. I make documentaries, even our “run-and-gun” shooting is smoother than that. I’m sure Mr Damon noticed the clumsy technique, too.
Kerry Neighbour…come to the US and talk to a few teachers. Particularly those in areas where they have to buy thier own class supplies, and frequently send canned food (also provided at thier own expense) home with students who they know won’t be able to eat over the weekend otherwise. Teachers at the high school level who can’t assign homework for thier students because there aren’t enough text books to go around. All kinds of different levels of shit and bullshit and general slop that you Aussies don’t have to deal with, or even have a frame of reference for. I have a good friend in Donnybrook who’s a teacher and she simply cannot believe some of the things I have been able to tell her about my friends and relatives in the same exact profession here in the States.
(Ih…this is Kate from Iowa everybody. I couldn’t get any of my more preferred log-ins to work. Please do not google katiekins.)
Only 10% of teachers are bad?
Most of my staff makes a lot more than a tenured teacher, and more than 10% of them are bad. Even in a corporate environment, unless you are doing something criminally wrong, you can absolutely be bad as long as you are marginally functional. You may not get any bonuses, but you’ll keep your job.
Ten percent of teachers are bad?
That’s it?
100% of libertardians are selfish, privileged, moronic douchebags.
And the crying scene is fucking stupid. It just makes reason.tv look like juvenile shit stains on top of being selfish, privileged, moronic douchebags.
I am definately not privileged, Aquaria. I can be a little selfish. I must be moronic to post here. Douchebag is a little too subjective for me to cop to that. By the Urban Dictionary definition, I don’t think I’ve surpassed jerk or asshole, yet (give me time).
fatherdaddy says:
Unless you’re the most oppressed person in the world, the odds are that you’re privileged in some way or another. (Especially if you’re able to post here.)
fatherdaddy, I suspect, weighed in to dismiss the approval expressed here, by being unimpressed by Damon.
(I’m not unimpressed)
Bwahahahaha! Maybe 10% of the population is useless and should die.
I pick!!!!!
I’ll take completely self unaware for 1000 Alex.
The problem is that around here, “privileged” is thrown around as some sort of insult as if it somehow doesn’t apply to the hurler. Hilarity ensues when the target is someone who grew up in the ghetto.. or in a trailer park.
Good point, Phalcrocorax. However, I am not any more privileged than the average white American male, for whatever that’s worth. Do you consider a construction worker making less than the median American income to be privileged? Many more liberals and women have more privilege than I, so, I feel I can stand by my comment.
I was expecting something considerably more insulting (or, insulting, period) than that as a response. I guess people haven’t made much of a move from the Scienceblogs site.
John Morales, I approve of your avatar!
Lot’s of amazing actors never get famous. Actually, most really good actors don’t get famous. Lot’s of completely shitty and talentless actors get famous for no reason anyone can quite understand.
It’s one of the most unfair and improbable industries.
The only reason to bother with it is because you are obsessed with it and unwilling to do anything else. It’s pretty much exactly like art in that respect: you do it for the sake of doing it and then try like hell to find a way not to make that into a fatal mistake.
No, not everyone can do that.
“However, I am not any more privileged than the average white American male, for whatever that’s worth”
That’s pretty damned privileged, Mr.
WTF?
Why did I put apostrophes there!?
I blame the heat.
If that’s you’re interpretation of how thing go here you share a lot of perceptive abilities with tree bark.
You are privileged enough to be using the internet. Although it’s hard to tell from just a few posts, it’s likely that you suffer from “first world problems.” If you are actually a father and/or daddy you also have some rather obvious societal privilege as you are man. Don’t worry, that’s not an insult: We all have different experiences and expectations placed upon us.
Anyway, it’s hard to understand your post. In the video, Matt Damon explained that fear of losing his job was not a major factor in his quest for self-improvement.
Likewise, you won’t find very many teachers who joined the profession primarily for the salary. A lot of other professional work with similar education, training, and time requirements pay a lot better.
What’s your problem, exactly?
I remember fatherdaddy from a couple of years ago. He’s a libertarian.
As Brownian and 24fps have pointed out, that was pretty shitty camerawork, both technically and professionally. Also, I’m quite certain that more than 10% of the people I work with are shitty at their jobs, and I work in an industry that is supposedly very merit-based. (Fortunately, at least 25% are awesome.)
fatherdaddy says:
I still can’t agree with your initial statement of being “definitely not privileged”, as your life would probably be more difficult if you were (1) not white, (2) not American, (3) not male.
Sorry for not meeting your expectations, but my insulting skills are sub-optimal. I’ll leave that for those who have already mastered that art.
Um… most people have some kind of privilege (even if you grew up in a trailer). In fact, some of the people who have brought up other people’s use of privilege have done so while logging into Pharyngula from *gasp* a trailer.
Guess what, I lived in a ghetto while white. I had something in my advantage with the police with that.
Go figure. It turns out that it all has to do with what advantages you have in being able to exert control on your environment and increase your chances of survival.
Chances, though, no guarantees. Guarantees are what you seem to think are implicit in that deal.
Try this: Oh man you mean there are things that could make my life even harder!? But my life is so haaaaarrrrrrd!
Well, yeah. It could be harder. If you can take the stairs if there is an emergency, that is a privilege right there. You don’t ever have to think about what it is like not to be able to do that.
Well that’s fine. But don’t go around saying “Man, why does that person get a downstairs office just because they can’t walk. Maybe they just shouldn’t have a job! I deserve a downstairs office. I hate stairs.” and then think crying about having been born in a trailer will make you look like less of an entitled turd.
Tenure stops bad teachers from being fired is a myth. Tenure just means that the administration has to gather evidence to prove that the teacher is bad before they can firing them.
Most schools take the easy way out by using the same tactic that unions use, work to rule. Just enforce every single nit picking rule on a teacher until you force them to quit or drive them to do something stupid to give you an excuse to fire them. Its the lazy way to fire someone. “Oh you’re two days late on the 50 page make work project I gave you two days ago during the middle of exam week, you’re not showing the right can do attitude. You’re on warning.” Find ways in the contract to do this over and over and eventually they won’t get any work done so you can fire them.
The problem with getting rid of tenure is that teachers deal with children and people are frequently not very rational when it comes to their kids. Teachers who demand the best from their students are both loved and hated. A lot of principals will do anything to stop parents complaints. The teachers most likely to draw complaints are the worst and the best (most demanding) teachers. Many school boards will take the easy way out and only allow middle of the pack teachers in their schools because really great teachers are too much of a pain in the ass. But how do middle of the pack teacher learn to be excellent teachers? From other excellent teachers because very few school districts are willing to pay to actually train teachers. If the excellent teachers aren’t there, its tough for middle of the pack teachers to get better.
Making teachers afraid for their jobs doesn’t make them better at their jobs, just more risk averse. Anything new is more likely to fail than succeed so why innovate?
“Tenure stops bad teachers from being fired is a myth.”
In fact, administrative corruption stops bad teachers from being fired.
“Making teachers afraid for their jobs doesn’t make them better at their jobs, just more risk averse. ”
This is one of those areas where those MBA-thinkers should have paid a bit more attention during their MBA courses.
Making people afraid of their jobs increases corruption. Want to make a company unethical? Put extreme demands on employees, make it completely incentive driven, reduce non-monetary rewards, and for extra kicks toss in a hostile environment so the competition really eats at people. You will weed out all but the most ruthless, and you will see results that make everything look fabulous on paper. This is the brilliant model that got us a housing crisis, and it will work for education too!
If you want to make sure there are more bad teachers and that they are harder to get rid of, then definitely follow that model. Make them job scared, highly competitive, make sure money and survival are their incentives, and push for results that look good on paper (standardized tests anyone) so that they have some good numbers to play with.
Myers hates Libertarians because he is a Marxist.
The man is a poster child for the Dunning–Kruger effect.
You know, I get so farking tired of assclams complaining about how teachers get so much time off and are overpaid and lazy… The average teacher spends over $1000 a year out of pocket on classroom materials the district won’t spring for. In rural and urban districts, they often provide pencil and paper for students. They arrive early and often grade papers late into the night.
Summers off? Sometimes, but often about half of that time is spent in professional development or continuing ed classes. And worst of all, they have to deal with your fricking devilspawn. I wonder that we can get any teachers into our classrooms at all. Yet another thing that libertarians are just flat wrong about.
Eric Atkinson, do us all a favor and chow down on a big bowl of Po-210.
Eric Atkinson, do you have a clue about what Marxism is? Other than something your political masters told you was bad.
Ten percent of people in any profession are bad…
and they became Libertarians.
/cue rimshot
reason.tv — that’s just begging for jokes. :)
*dies from irony overload*
Hey Jadehawk….Fe off!
I make you a deal Eric: I’ll fuck off the moment you can demonstrate that you know what Marxism is. k?
and yes, I did notice you pun; not a good one.
I notice Eric Atkinson didn’t even try to answer my question about Marxism. It’s probably because I used big words like “clue” and “political.”
Seriously, Ass-kiss-on: Name one principle of Marxism, just one. If you’re so opposed to it, and have been going around to wax museums to see all the remaining adherents, you should be able to name just one feature of it.
Why should I? Don’t you understand your own belief system?
I guess my first point was that Mr. Damon is part of a profession where you may not work for weeks, months, or even years. He may not fear it, or, he may not think he fears it, but, many others in his profession do fear it. Of course, he and many others may work there asses off solely because they love the work. I’ll bet there are plenty who work harder to be better than the rest because they want to be the ones who get the jobs.
Yes, I acknowledge that I am a receiver of greater privilege than the majority of the people on the planet. I don’t acknowlege that I am a receiver of greater privilege than Aquaria, you, the Rev., or most of the commenters on this blog. Not that I can’t be convinced. Maybe, I have this strange misconception that most of those that spend time commenting on blogs tend to be better educated than I am and, unless they’re students, earn more than me. My own experiences with police fail to convince me of my privileged status, as well. So, my second point would be that not everyone who falls under the libertardian label could be considered one of the elite. Though, several of us are morons.
BWAHAHAHAAAAAAAA
cupcake, you’re the one claiming we’re Marxists, so I suggest you show some evidence for that.
Because I do know what Marxism is, and thus also know that I’m not a Marxist.
Sweet suffering Jesus, you’re an imbecile! I’m not a Marxist—I was born in the 20th century! If you are so stridently anti-Marxist, name one fucking guiding principle of this obsolete philosophy that you have somehow dredged up from the mists of time to obsess about!
I’ll venture a guess. It’s some sort of fan of early 20th century slapstick comedy? No?
I know what Marxism is. But I really doubt you know what it is, because if you did then you wouldn’t be accusing non-Marxists of following Marxism.
Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.
Exactly! The guiding principle is: “I’d never join any group that would have me as a member!”
I’m more of a Fieldsist anyway: “Go away, kid, ya bother me!”
Nowadays: “Gedoffamalawn!”
Battleaxe…you are funny.
Here. Go watch Mr. Deity…
http://www.youtube.com/user/misterdeity
Myers will not link to the show anymore.
irony meter meltdown in 3
As I thought, the only thing Eric Dumbshit knows about Marxism is that his political masters have told him that it’s bad.
Some people would not understand irony even if they dropped it on their foot.
Rev …your meter is a bit rusty. try some WD-40.
You accusing PZ of exemplifying Dunning-Kruger and also accusing him of being a Marxist?
Ok maybe irony wasn’t descriptive enough.
Base dumbfuckery is better.
Tis himself…I doubt very much that you think anything at all.
Still waiting for you to tell us why PZ is a Marxist Eric.
Is there a Libertarian bat-signal? Do they trawl the internet for keyword = “douchebag” to see any reference to themselves.
I’m curious, because all anyone seems to have to do to attract an infestation of selfish short-sighted asshats is to say “libertarian” and anything nice about anyone who isn’t libertarian.
PS. Matt Damon, I liked you anyhow. I just like you more now.
Rev… Dr. Myers am what he am.
Go ask him. But you know the answer. You’ve been here for years.
Oh a dodge. And a weak one at that.
Show us what you know buddy.
Prove you aren’t the moron you come off as.
Why is PZ a Marxist?
Tell us.
whatever that is, it isn’t English
of course I know the answer, since it’s been in the masthead since forever (now moved to the bottom of the page): PZ is a liberal.
So, are you going to substantiate the silly assertion that he’s a Marxist? Or at the very least show any sign of knowing what Marxism is?
I’m still waiting to see if Eric even knows that Marxism is, other than bad.
Come on, Ass-kiss-on: Just one tenet of Marxism—you can do it!*
*Not intended to be a factual statement.
Like so many simpletons before him, brave Eric ran away.
If you go to the Wikipedia page on Marxism you might see a picture of Saint Myers.
Boy the minons of Myers really like to bull-bait.
Kinda like Scientologist.
If you fucking read that Wikipedia page you might learn something. I ain’t holding my breath.
Eric must be purely a troll doing this for the lulz. No one could seriously think these replies were reasonable or did anything other than make them look like an idiot, right?
Well, good for a laugh either way.
No Sir Rev… I just got more productive things to do. My Hp-3325B
has been acting up. Got to crack the manual.
still not English
you should get your inability to tell one bearded guy from another checked by a specialist.
anyway, instead of looking at the pictures, you should maybe read the Marxism article on Wikipedia, then maybe you’d know what the fuck you’re talking about.
Well get on your way and stop wasting your time. Get those important things done.
Another weak dodge Eric.
We all know you don’t have a fucking clue what you’re blabbering on about.
Just own up and move on.
or don’t
It doesn’t really matter. We know you’re just repeating big words you heard were bad.
sad really
When I saw that all the recent comments were on this article, why I just knew some liberdouche had shown up.
Troll. Sure why not? Anyone slightly out of the orthodox aa laid down by Saint Myers is going to be called a troll anywhatway.
Goodnight.
yep figures. So no explanation of PZ’s Marxism?
No?
Eric?
Hello?
odds on flounce sticking?
People disagree here all of the time. Only the morons and trolls seem to find the need to complain about how awful it is that they get harsh treatment.
Compared to many other blogs you can say nearly anything. Seriously, if you want to find a place where unorthodox thinking is not allowed you should look elsewhere.
Of course I know you will not reply to this because you are going to do all those important things you need to get done.
Where is killfile now that I really want it? Given the choice between an avatar that’s too small to recognize and killfile, I know which one I’d rather have.
Didn’t use the old one, haven’t tried this one; but it’s inspired by the old Pharyngula script, and covers a range of blog platforms. (WordPress isn’t explicitly mentioned in the description, but I see references in the source.)
I have no idea what you do with it, but here it is:
http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/4107
Kagato,
I’ve just (re)installed that version of killfile. WP doesn’t recognize it.
Hmmm… Marxian analysis can be useful, but I’ve really not heard PZ make many arguments that seem rooted in Marxism. I really don’t think he’s a Marxist.
That being said, Marxism isn’t a dirty word. PZ is a liberal. Liberal != Marxist. And non-Libertarian != non-Liberal.
It really shouldn’t need to be more complicated than that.
What is the hate over teachers, anyhow? The fact that they have a strong union?
The whole short-working-day-and-summers-off thing seems such a red herring. If it was such an easy job, the average burnout rate might be better than it is. A quick google search reveals attrition rates of new graduates in teaching ranging from 6% to 30% depending on region. If teaching was such a cushy job, whyever would anyone get a degree in it and then choose within a few years to do something else?
“The fact that they have a strong union?”
I live in a state where the teachers do not have a strong union. It is also famous for its poor education! You’d think due to our amazing incentives that we’d be stronger, wouldn’t you?
Caveat: My Parents are both Teachers in Australia, so the situation is slightly different
Anyone who thinks that teachers have a ‘soft job’ with days off is delusional. People point to the holidays as if they’re some kind of indication, but fail to realise the number of hours teachers put into marking, lesson planning, extra-curricular activities, meetings and training, to name just a few things.
The notion that anyone teaches for the money is also ludicrous. If teachers really were in it for the money, they could find jobs in the private training sector. Teachers teach because they like it and believe that they can help kids. It’s not unreasonable to ask for remuneration for that, but applying ‘MBA’ techniques will always be a fool’s errand.
Very nice MattSlap!
Apparently in Singapore, South Korea and Finland 100% of teachers are drawn from the top 1/3 of their college classes, while in the US nearly half come from the bottom 1/3.
http://www.onlineeducation.net/the-state-of-education
Matt Damon is too fucking cool, I hope he’s an atheist since i can’t find his religious affiliation online. Although if he is, my head might explode from the awesomeness.
Oh well.
Anyone with sufficient motivation & javascript skills want to have a go at a patch?
Matt Damon was the fabulous angel in Dogma. Kinda hard to see him as a churchgoer considering the “blasphemy” of that role. Dunno if we can claim him for the atheist side, but he’s certainly made of awesome.
Wait, some idiot showed up, called PZ a Marxist, and then revealed that he didn’t even know what Marxism was?
What a fucking asshat.
Academic freedom is usually the foremost concern when discussing tenure. I agree with Mr. Damon that the MBA attitude has entered into this subject in a very contorted manner.
Damon is an extremely bright guy — he immediately sized up the question and responded appropriately.
Make teachers’ jobs less secure?
That would inevitably drive GOOD teachers out of teaching. I’ve known several teachers, several of whom have won awards. For each with whom I’ve broached the subject, the biggest incentive to leave was not salary (c’mon! they’re already working for crap), but the administrative bullshit with which they have to put up (…er “… up with which they have to put.”)
Do libertarians REALLY want to make good teachers go away and go to law school?
I have always liked Damon for some reason. I have enjoyed many of his films and occasionally have run into statements from him that I thought were rather intelligent. Strangely enough, I think his video with Sarah Silverman cemented this positive impression of him as I really like it when famous people can laugh at themselves and appear not to have a gigantic swelled head.
The school holidays are not holidays for teachers.
As well as extra-curricular clubs that run during the holidays in an effort to get some of the kids off the streets while their parents work/desperately scrabble for daytime childcare, they will have several training days per term-end hols, piles and piles of marking and assessments to do, then lesson plans overspilling into infinity (feels like it, anyway).
They’ll also have department meetings to plan subject spending and direction, and whole-school meetings to go over topics such as the latest health training (the last one I attended was the revised procedure for students undergoing asthma attacks) as well as less important but still mandatory meetings to listen to whatever whim the Head woke up with last week.
Teachers I know are lucky to take two weeks actual holiday, i.e., going away, not working, per year. Reading some of the simplistic trollish spouting here, it’s still evident that some people really don’t have a clue about what a hard, pressurised job it actually is.
Then clearly you have no clue how an education system works.
Not every student is the same or comes from the same background, punishing teachers for the lacklustre test scores of their students discourages teachers from taking jobs educating students with special needs or ones from poorer demographics.
Whoops, looks like I misread the above quote. Disregard please.
Wait, some idiot, named Wowbagger,revealed that he himself has poor reading comprension skills.
.
No Eric, You displayed your privilege, slandered PZ by calling him Marxist and when asked for clarification on your understanding of Marxism tried to deflect it and change the subject.
Just stick your flounce already.
Oh, and @PZ Meyers, I’m reading this blog in England, so technically that makes it published here. Our Libel & Slander laws here are quite draconian, and may apply in this instance.
Not that I’m suggesting that you should sue idiot trolls or anything, just thinking aloud…
Oopsie, PZMeyers should read PZMyers obviously. Add letter blindness to the list on my profile :)
The ‘bad 10%’ of CEO’s probably get paid more then that ‘good 90%’ of teachers combined. How about we get rid of them first?
Good teaching stems from good training. Teacher educators are just as poorly paid and have worse conditions than teachers. I’d suggest that significantly improving the resources, pay and conditions for teacher educators would be a really cost effective way of improving the quality of teaching.
Can you tell that I make my living training teachers?
A couple of days ago, we had someone throwing around incorrect use of “argument from silence“. And now we have Eric to thank for providing a textbook example.
Wowbagger is right – you’ve had 12 posts in which to explain your bizarre statement that PZ is a Marxist, but you’ve danced gibbering away every time.
The sensible answer is that you clearly haven’t got a clue what the hell you’re talking about.
Hey Eric did you study up and figure out how you’re going to tie PZ to Marxism yet?
The average teacher salary in my school district (St. Paul, Minnesota suburbs) is $47,000 per year. Clearly, they are not teaching for the money. And they aren’t teaching for the glory and respect – any time the topic of education comes up in the news, we hear this nonsense about all these bad teachers and nothing about the good teachers.
All these proposals to pay great teachers more money always focus on standardized test scores, which would be great if the teachers were teaching standardized kids. Unfortunately, they aren’t teaching standardized kids.
Public schools are teaching kids living in poverty, kids with turbulent home lives, kids with parents so busy trying to earn enough money to feed the family that they don’t have time to spend hours a day working on homework, kids with profound disabilities, and kids like mine with attention deficit disorder and learning disabilities that make it virtually impossible to do well on standardized tests, in addition to the kids so bright it’s hard to keep up with them and the kids with parents who push them to excell and the kids whose parents can afford to pay for tutors. And they are teaching 30 of these kids in the same classroom.
*tips her hat to teachers*
Ugh blockquote fail. The second bit was mine.
“If you go to the Wikipedia page on Marxism you might see a picture of Saint Myers.
Boy the minons of Myers really like to bull-bait.
Kinda like Scientologist.”
Are you a bull, or just full of it? Going to bring your personal army? To do what, explain Marxism to you?
As the son of 2 teachers I agree with the illustrious Matt Damon!
And, on the whole libertarian argument… well, I’m at heart an ideological anarchist but I am also well aware that the system won’t work. Give me socialised schools and medical care 7 days a week and at least attempt to get equality of service.
I make 11k/yr more in the private sector than I did teaching. I’m also not permanently stressed out and depressed about my job. I am not treated like a child by my administrators. I am not disrespected and undervalued by anyone. I don’t have any work to do when I get home. I’m in better shape. I actually enjoy my vacations instead of working, planning, and dreading going back.
It would take a lot to get me back to teaching in an american public school.
I wouldn’t say being called a Marxist is slander. It’s not that bad. I wouldn’t be ashamed to call myself one if I were more sure that I actually was. I’d definitely say I’m a socialist. Quite a few academics are Marxist; Marxism still works pretty well as a method of social analysis. The proposed solutions to the problems, well, that’s another question. Simplistic utopias don’t happen.
Also LOL at stupid Americans who label anyone left of Ghenghis Khan as a communist/marxist/devil/terrorist.
What fascinates me so much about this is why so many people seem to think that teaching is an easy job or one that we need to take a corporatist view to. I’ve had more than my fair share of horrid teachers, I had a creationist biology teacher that kept trying to sabotage the lessons in his classroom on evolution. I have had to deal with teachers who did not know their subject or who cared more about regulating how we sat than giving us useful information. I have also had some teachers that made me want to study and learn more and that awakened a love of books and learning.
Cath:
A pretty decent analysis. I’ve never understood why there are swathes of people who are ready to brand anything “Marxist” or “Socialist” as being “evil”.
I see Eric A is just as stupid as before this time around. Calling PZ a marxist doesn’t make him one, especially if you can’t define what a marxist is, and describe how socialists and progressives are not marxists. What a waste of food, water, and air.
Oddly enough, it seems that the right wing in the US are too insular to see where their country’s politics sits relative to the* civilised world. They call Obama a Communist when his politics would generally render him unelectalbe in most of Europe because they’re too far to the right. Unfortunately, there is currently an element of that working in reverse – the rest of us look on the Tea Party as a joke because nutters like this would never have any real power here, not realising that in a country whose voting options have been, from time immemorial, “Far Right” and “Further Right”, not only is their rise to real power plausible, it’s already happening.
*No, there isn’t an omitted “rest of the” here.
I used to identify as a Libertarian way back. But even the Libertarian I was wouldn’t recognize the bat-shit crazy that boasts of being libertarian these days – WTF happened? When the hell did Ayn Rand (sans Atheism) become the Libertarian’s ideal? It’s a cold, heartless, cut-throat philosophy now.
I wonder how much of that is a form of Stockholm Syndrome.
As the man said:
“They made him watch. He probably tried to turn away — they wouldn’t let him. You call him a “survivor?” He’s not. A man comes up against that kind of will, only way to deal with it, I suspect… is to become it. He’s following the only course that’s left to him. First he’ll try to make himself look like one… cut on himself, desecrate his own flesh… then he’ll start acting like one.”
Only in the case of current US politics, it’s something much more horrific than a mere Reaver.
Dang. And here I was hoping that the libertarian infestation was limited to the post on Scienceblogs.
I just can’t wrap my head around why teachers get treated so badly in this country. They work long hours with shit for pay, are hampered constantly by the need to “teach tests” in order to hit score averages, and are given less respect than babysitters. The whole “teachers work short days and get summers off” trope is laughably false to anyone who’s ever actually known a teacher – they’ll stay hours after the official school day is done to run extracurricular activities, grade papers and work on lesson plans at home late into the night and/or early in the morning; and summers are either spent taking CE or having to work a 2nd job in order to make ends meet.
The look on Matt Damon’s face during the interview is hilarious – it’s like he can’t quite believe what they’re saying and is hoping someone’s going to pop out and tell him the whole thing’s a prank. And is sorely disappointed when he realizes they’re serious.
I don’t know if somebody have mentioned it already, but I just love his mom’s that’s-my-boy proud face. Lovely.
However I feel some lack of context as I’m not from the US. What they were talking about exactly?
Eneraldo:
Teachers are a preferred target of libertarians ‘cos they’re public (and usually unionized) employees. It’s a part of the hate for “big government”.
Eneraldo Carneiro says:
The immediate context was that the reporter asserted that for an actor, lack of job security is a major incentive to perform well. She linked this to teaching, implying that minimizing job security might be a practical incentive for self-improvement among teachers.
This is the most charitable interpretation I can offer. It’s pretty clear that they were hostile towards the rally that Matt Damon attended: a rally for teachers rights where he gave a speech about how he had been empowered by teachers.
The greater context is a right-wing push to deregulate and privatize education under the assumption that private companies are naturally more competitive because of market forces. This comes at the same time as organized teacher bashing, teacher pay programs based on “teaching standardized tests,” and major cuts to public education.
I love how at the 8second mark, you can see his brain go *I see what you did there, and I don’t like it.*
Erich Veith at DI just posted a great YouTube video from Taylor Mali on “What teachers make”
It’s well worth a look.
http://dangerousintersection.org/2011/08/02/what-do-teachers-make/
(I would normally wrap that in an A tag but figured that would obfuscate the link in this case)
RE: Marcus Hill they call Obama a Communist when his politics would generally render him unelectalbe in most of Europe because they’re too far to the right.
Exactly right. I consider myself somewhat centrist (from a European perspective… fiscally conservative and socially progressive) – but here in the States I am a rabid left wing pinko unionizing steal-from-the-working-man-and-give-to-the-lazy* commie!
*this was something one of my neighbors actually said regarding the call to allow the bush tax cuts to expire. He actually said that was stealing from the “working man” (meaning himself, a tax partner at a big 4 firm!)
There are so many people that want into the acting biz that salaries are horrible until you have a product that others can’t live without. Unknowns in the biz basically don’t have acting as their major source of income, no matter their skill level. There just isn’t enough work.
So no, you don’t act because you might make the big bucks, or because you might not get hired again. It doesn’t matter how good an actor is, if the script sucks, the director sucks, if the grip sucks… The production will suck and you have something that doesn’t go into your resume.
That’s pretty much the opposite of what the libertarians are espousing in the video.
It seems strange to me that libertarians cannot possible imagine, picture, contemplate, think of, conceive of, or consider any state between pure at gun point Marxism or pure free market fundamentalism. They seem to believe reality is only black and white, nothing in between, purely unadulterated capitalism on the one hand and nothing but freedom haters on the other. It appears to me less of a philosophical fallacy and more like a cognitive disorder. I wander if there is such a mental disorder that forces the sufferer to see the world in nothing but black and white, a form of emotional color blindness. I think that is the problem Eric has. He does not need to understand what Marxism is, just knowing that Myers is not a free market jihadist is enough to make him evil. Black and white, us and them, and so forth.
It seems distressingly common.
FYI, PZ, Matt Damon’s next movie is called “We Bought a Zoo”, abut the adventures of Ben Mee, who can be found here: http://www.dartmoorzoo.org/
“I wander if there is such a mental disorder that forces the sufferer to see the world in nothing but black and white, a form of emotional color blindness.”
—
Take A Third Option
Personally, I suspect that when black/white thinking isn’t related to denial, it stems from a lack of creativity; either inherent, or induced by training. Most schooling seems to be about Right/Wrong duality – getting The Correct Answer no matter what – and less and less about creativity or self-expression.
By the way, Matt Damon has a net worth of $65 million and makes about $24 milliom per year. I bet his tax accountants work really hard so that he pays “his fair share.”
Crisa,
Exactly.
And that’s the way of the rest of of the world, as well. Without the cooperation of all of those around you, you will suck. There is no John Galt, the self-made person who created everything around him. (And a good thing, too: even at 13, I realized that man was an asshole. I never hated a protagonist in my life. Even after reading American Psycho, I think John Galt may be the most selfish, heartless, casually cruel character in all of literature.)
And to me, that’s the failure of libertarianism: the failure to recognize our role in society. Everything we are, we owe to society. If we are financially successful, it is because of society, even if we exploited loopholes within society to fuck over other people to become wealthy.
Yes, I want to maximize personal freedom. But the only way to do that is to make as many people as wealthy as we can, without sacrificing the future. I personally do not have the freedom of Warren Buffutt. Hell, I don’t even have the freedom of Jimmy Buffett. They can do things that I cannot, because I simply don’t have the economic resources.
Me, I’d like to make people as free as possible, rather than simply saying they’re at liberty to do what they want. Because while everyone may be at liberty to find a job, they might not be able to do so.
Sorry. I’m rambling now. Shutting up.
Eric Atkinson:
Nice oblique ad hominem there, Kiddo. Have anything to back that up, or are you just trying your hand at junior-high level character assassination?
Sir, I do believe that herring you are concealing beneath your trench coat is rancid.
Now how about that Marxism charge Eric?
Huh?
Come on EA, define communism, or shut the fuck up.
So, Eric, how are those studies of Marxism going? Do you know how historical materialism differs from dialectical materialism? Have you learned who the bourgeoisie and the proletariat are? Are you ready to be quizzed on the labour theory of value and the surplus commodity value?
Nerd, don’t confuse him. let’s stick with marxism specifically, and leave communism aside, for the moment
We all know that “defining terms” is just one of silly things that go on here. We all have “graduated from the sixth grade,” know how to use the internet to look at Wikipedia and so forth.
We all know what Marxism is.
I haven’t heard Dr. Myers denial.
But I am sure the revenue scheme for FTB is NOT based on Marxism in any way. shape, or form.
Does this meam Dr. Myers isn’t a fan of Marx and Engels, or does it mean that he is hypocritical about economics.
Can’t really make anybody pay for this.
Maybe he just dreams about a world where dumb slaves like me are forced to pay for his pleasures.
I may be wrong.
Won’t hear anyone else say that here.
What the fuck do I care.
I went insane and now I have no income.
I payed -5.6% taxes for 2011.
I get $2203/month.
Work hard suckers.
Hey, Turd of the Redhead bot; why don’t you STFU?
Rhetorical, I know
BTW If anybody wants to know about such things, Medicare Part A is included with SSI.
Medicare Part B costs $110/ month.
BCBS Part D HMO costs $89/ month.
Do I feel like a hypocrite? Why yes I do.
But Uncle Sam has been in my pocket for forty years.
There’s a sentence in there exposing your ignorance Eric.
Can you figure out which one>
ding!ding!ding!ding!
we do; you rather obviously don’t.
also, do you fucking think anyone is going t begrudge you medicare if you need it, just because you’re a fucking asshole and hypocrite? no, that’s your libertarians’ job.
Still nothing from EA, but then he was always more of a troll than a commenter, which requires a certain intelligence. Define your terms…you know you can, and we will laugh at your idiocy…
Too bad you can’t laugh at you own constant idiocy.
Man.
That EA feller is some stupid.
Did you know that The Communist Manifesto was a work-for-hire, and Marx and Engles got paid for it?
Communism is not about charity work!
Eric, the dictionary is your friend. Since you apparently haven’t cracked one, or you’d know all arguments start with knowing what words mean, may I suggest you do that reading thing which we’re all talking about.
At this point, you’re demanding to enter a conversation you don’t understand, to say things you don’t understand, because they sound mean and you think if you can be mean enough, you’ll win.
I promise you, the people on Pharyngula are meaner. Of course, they also read and are capable of self-awareness and shame, which means they’re three up on you already.
Matt Damon yay! He is certainly well spoken and well able to defend his views, not exactly the idea that some (me included until now) had about him.
Audley Z. Darkheart OM and Noah the epistemic pinata
Thanks for the info.
I’m from a country (Brazil) where unfortunately I can say been there done (and still doing) that.
Making a long story short, what those dumbasses don’t realize is that as you devalue teaching as a profession more and more, you’ll lose the best professionals, either because they’ll give up and change career or will not even consider teaching as a career in the first place.
It have happened here already, I have a close perspective on the fenomenon as my wife was a teacher, and a good one, but gave up and change career more than 20 years ago.
sounds like Eric is one of many mentally ill libertarians living off the state… which is to say nothing about most libertarians, it just seems to be a trend amongst those with personality disorders and too much free time on their hands. Maybe it’s a reaction to feelings of guilt or inadequacy, or resentment for living off of state welfare, I don’t know. I just know several schizophrenics and dudes with mood disorders who tend towards libertarian thought. Their thought process is usually incomplete, poorly reasoned, and/or incoherent, but that’s to be expected. I wouldn’t mock him too incessantly, but asking him to back up his assertions seems to be within bounds.
Also when people live in their head more (and that living space is not entirely functional) there seems to be an obsession with ideological purity. Dudes get fixated on the ONE IMPORTANT THING OF FREEDOM and become more and more convinced of it’s absolute importance. I’m sorry you’re living like that, eric, and I hope you can find something more satisfying than trolling in your life. My friend who is in a similar situation plays a lot of online poker, but I don’t recommend it.
Recently on Lawrence O’Donnell’s program a great point was brought up:
Why don’t the “incentive” happy Libertarians use the same criteria for cops (or firemen)?
They are paid with tax money, too, aren’t they?
Do you propose incentives based on the number of arrests, and their nature/ More of a bonus for a felony arrest than a misdemeanor, more for a drug bust, etc.? Would this make you less or more free?
And the areas with high crime rates also (shocker) are also areas with low test scores. Why not focus on the lack of impact those police officers are having? Are they the 10% of cops that suck, and should be fired?
How can you determine if a fireman is good at his job? Do you go over the incident and second-guess them, determine the fire could have been put out sooner or more efficiently, and dock their pay accordingly, or reward them if they meet your standard?
I think the Right/Libertarians hate teachers because teachers must teach facts, and those facts in many cases go against their (wrong and irrational) worldview. SO teachers are “brainwashing” and “liberal” blah blah blah and so must be scrutinized/demonized.
But not cops, because they support the police state, which they secretly crave, even as they couch their arguments in terms like “freedom” and “choice” and “liberty”.
EEEEEEE….sorry for the weird syntax/typos, just had a cornea replaced Thursday and can’t see too well..
Often continue the ascend. It is possible for you to do whatever you decide, if you first get to know who you are and are ready to work with a power that is definitely greater than ourselves to do it.