I know the gun-fondlers are all cowards hiding behind their weapons, but charging in to kill 12 people at a building that provides assistance to developmentally disabled people? WHY? It’s as if they decided to target the weakest people in society needing the greatest help.
<insert vague and futile expression of hope that this tragic crime will finally motivate government to crack down on the folly, a hope that will never be fulfilled and will only produce more cynicism and despair>
They thought it was Planned Parenthood?
My first thoughts on hearing the location was that it involved reproductive services (senseless violence directed at a specific perceived “enemy”) but that doesn’t seem to be the case. At this point, it seems more likely to be the work of some group for whom violence against ANYONE is the goal and thoughts of Paris are all too quick to come to mind. I suppose we’ll know more over the next day, not that it makes much difference. Sad and pointless nonetheless.
My first reaction was “Oh shit”, followed by *headdesk*.
Doesn’t make any sense.
What a tragedy – the center’s twitter feed shows a lot of the good work they’ve done. This AP article says the shooting was in a conference area rented by an outside group.
You know, I bet that back in the early 1900s, every car accident probably made big national news. Then, as they got more common, they retreated back to the local news pages, and eventually they barely even got covered there unless a bus or kids were involved, or a victim was someone who was famous.
I’ve been having a sick feeling recently that big acts of violence may follow that trajectory. That someday, knowing someone who was killed by a mass shooter will be as common as knowing someone killed in a car accident today — tragic, but not really unexpected.
I don’t see much of a way to avoid that world, either. Do you?
Fuck. I don’t know what to say anymore, this is happening too often. Fuck.
qwints:
No. It’s a deliberate act. It’s murder. It’s terrorism.
According to a report heard online from KTLA-5, the shooters may have been targeting a party for some San Bernadino County employees who had rented a room in the facility.
thanks, NRA, for shooting up such an easy target, to advocate armed defense (by amateur randoms) for every facility to prevent such tragedies.
probably paranoid, but I smell a false flag operation at work
brucegee1962, we are actually allowed to make regulations making road travel more safe. We can actually force auto makers to change their designs so we are more safe.
On television, we’re not even fucking allowed to say we don’t like being killed with guns.
Now we need to know if the murderers are white or not so we can decide whether to call it terrorism or not *end cynism*
@ slithey tove, That is horseshit and (I hope) you know that. If I wanted to hear uneducated conspiracy theories and pokes in the dark to advance a political position I’d listen to the Tea Baggers. Remember when they immediately labeled Sandy Hook a “false flag” so Obama could advance gun control? It was despicable when they did it and its no less despicable when our side does it. Lets wait for the facts and until then keep our thoughts about the victims.
re @13:
yes, glad you saw through my playacting, and noticing my vague “paranoid” disclaimer. but I stand by blaming NRA for this, if only making the tools so easily available.
Asshole religious nut jobs blame gay marriage in 3.. 2.. 1..
The San Bernadino shooting is the *second* mass shooting of today. The first was in Savannah, Georgia.
Let me off this planet.
That paranoid fantasy about the the government swooping in to take away everyone’s guns is looking increasingly appealing as something I’d like to actually happen right about now. What’s it going to take for America to do literally anything about this?
Yeah, some days are like that. But I have someone dependent on me. So sometimes I feel I need a bullet-resistant vest just to go to the grocery.
Why is anyone surprised, shocked, or taken aback?
Oh fuck me that’s right near where my family lives.
brucegee1962 @ 5
There’s a fair few articles describing gun violence of this kind as “the new normal”. It’s a sickening thought, but apparently the US political establishment doesn’t even care enough any longer to pretend sympathy.
After all, it’s not like the ruling classes are at risk – they don’t use Planned Parenthood or social services or public schools or attend black churches or political protests.
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/latest-mass-shooting-unfolds-southern-california
Reactions Republican candidates:
Donald Trump: California shooting looks very bad. Good luck to law enforcement and God bless. This is when our police are so appreciated!
Ben Carson: My thoughts and prayers are with the shooting victims and their families in San Bernardino.
Jeb Bush: Praying for the victims, their families & the San Bernardino first responders in the wake of this tragic shooting.
Mike Huckabee: Praying for those impacted by the shooting in California today.
Reactions from Democratic candidates:
Hillary Clinton: I refuse to accept this as normal. We must take action to stop gun violence now. -H
Bernie Sanders: Mass shootings are becoming an almost-everyday occurrence in this country. This sickening and senseless gun violence must stop.
Martin O’Malley: Horrifying news out of #SanBernardino. Enough is enough: it’s time to stand up to the @NRA and enact meaningful gun safety laws
Just yesterday, Republicans in the House of Congress would not even allow debate on a bill to close a loophole that allows suspected terrorists to buy guns in the USA. They blocked debate, let alone a vote.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/house-dems-rip-gop-blocking-gun-debate-article-1.2452290
Despite the Democratic response (Lynna #23) I’m afraid that the only political response that could gain traction would be an armed one.
How long before every government building has armed and armoured guards in intimidating and anonymous dress? How long before that service, in their distinctively coloured shirts, with their mission to repress the actions of a tiny segment of society, begin to repress the actions of the larger populace?
Yes, this is a slippery slope argument, but looking at the US from the outside as I do, all I see is a steady slide into fascism.
Meanwhile, I shed futile, and literal, tears for the terror and pain of the victims and the ongoing suffering of those who love them.
Be safe and well my distant friends. I may not comment much these days, but you are all in my thoughts.
I take it back. At the very least, presidential candidates to care enough to pretend sympathy.
So, to summarise @23:
Democratic candidates: Let’s do something!
Republican candidates: Let’s pray!
Only one of these two responses has a slim chance of achieving something useful, if (big if) the political will is there.
So, county employees were targeted. Knowing that, I’ll put my nickel down on this being a white separatist action, no false flag necessary.
And to FossilFishy #25, federal office buildings all went to controlled access and armed guards after Oklahoma City. Every court building I’ve seen in the last 10 years has armed police of the appropriate jurisdiction manning the doors and the metal detectors. That just leaves the smaller town offices yet to be locked down.
Ye gads.
Sick.
Sick is how I feel.
Sick is this sort of atrocity.
And sick is the society that refuses to take the obvious steps neede to prevent this.
Numenaster #29. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. My only experience with anything remotely governmental in the States has been at airports. I have to say that the black uniformed, wrap around sunglassed, armoured guards bearing fully automatic looking weapons in LAX gave me the same feeling I had when I saw such guards in the train stations in apartheid-era South Africa. And it wasn’t one of welcome safety I can assure you.
On the up side, if you can call it that, at least l was wrong in feeling that such a force would inevitably morph into something used to repress everyone. If it hasn’t happened in twenty years maybe it won’t.
And before some asshole comes in to claim that this wouldn’t have happened if the people at the party were armed, I’ll just note that the person or people who did this were reported to be wearing body armor, so it would’ve taken a hell of a lucky shot to stop them.
LA Times:
My mind is boggling.
FossilFishy — Similar feeling I had seeing the polizia armed with machine guns standing by the road in northern Italy and walking around train stations. That was in 1979 when the Red Brigade was active. I met people in Italy who were constantly under threat from police terror because of their affiliation with “communists.”
They were reported to have tactical vests (black fishing vest) not body armor.
Who the hell agrees to kill and most likely die because their buddy has a workplace beef? The mind boggles. Though this is Berndo, they were all probably meth’d out…
Oh, and from the news shots of their guns, they were all illegal under California law.
@FossilFishy #32,
I’m not sure you WERE wrong. The militarization of civilian police began getting worse after that, as I recall. Then we had 9/11 and the Patriot Act, and suddenly it was legal for the government to collect all sorts of information they previously needed a court order for. And then in the late 2000s, we began having civilian police departments getting surplus military equipment for use in civilian riot control. I guess you could say the system isn’t used to repress EVERYONE, since white male shooters manage to have their rights respected pretty well. But the rest of us are feeling it.
” at least l was wrong in feeling that such a force would inevitably morph into something used to repress everyone”
Sorry, forgot to trim the not-blockquote.
The bearcat armored personnel carrier, bomb robots, an armored tractor, and scary black guns all were needed by the police today. If I were a cop on the ground during this situation, I’d be grateful to have such tools available.
Fascists are often keen on cleansing the race by removing “inferior” elements. And, of course, punishing anyone who would help those “inferior” elements stay alive. The Nazis certainly were: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics
“Why would anyone shoot up a social services building?”
PZ, you are overlooking the obvious answer: it has the word “social” in it. You know, like socialism.
They were dark skinned not nazi white and they hit a county mental health employee Christmas party that rented the room, not the normal staff and clients.
Wait for all the praying. That’s gonna fix everything. ‘Cause Jesus…
It is such a huge sorrow. But my mind is fixed on one small corner of it. Not the most important corner by far, but the one that is small enough that I can grab onto it without it entirely shutting me down: all of those clients and participants. They will not be able to go to the center tomorrow. Their routines have been shattered. The families and caregivers will have to try to explain why they can’t go tomorrow, why they can’t go Friday. They will have to try and understand what’s happened without being scared every day from here on out. These people right here have to deal with this/ (link goes to video of yesterday’s Christmas party).
Christopher
Do you have links?
Thanks for the info, @Christopher #43. Watching in the UK I was not aware of that.
My only source is that I’ve been listening to the scanner feed for hours and watching the news chopper coverage in the background.
I wonder if Trump is going to suggest shooting the shooters’ families. He seems to think that works on muslims.
#40
Sure, as would I. But the omnipresent need for this stuff comes from the militarisation of general populace that the US tolerates. Every police force has some heavy tools to deploy when needed. But by and large in the rest of the world, outside of repressive regimes, those tools are not on display daily. Nor are the found outside of major population centres, again, unlike the US.
And because of the threat a powerfully armed citizenry poses the bigoted elite of the US can justify preparing for what they see as the coming race war without having to expose their bigotry. It really is a perfect preparatory situation for anyone who desires a fascist government. And my paranoid side suspects that that is a big reason those in power will never do anything sensible about gun laws in the US.
@Marcus
They might very well be Muslim, which would result in a right wing hate orgy bar none.
Early in the scanner feed the cops broadcast the suspect’s name. It was very Sunni. Supposedly that dude was at the Christmas party, got into an argument, left in a tiff, then the shooting started not too long afterwards.
Qwints @ 11:
From your twitter link, people are getting down to what’s truly important:
Just when I think I couldn’t possibly be more sickened…
Christopher @39:
Which is largely irrelevant because the guns could easily have been legally purchased in Oregon or Nevada before being brought into California.
Or the guns could have been bought from a drug cartel or smuggled in like the Paris Daesbags did.
News conference not saying much. Two dead (one male one female) one alive and in custody.
I notice that the speakers at the news conference haven’t said anything at all about skin color, ethnicity, or religions of the suspected shooters. Neither has any of the other news coverage I’ve seen, heard, or read. Where are you getting this information, Christopher?
I’m getting info from the raw police scanner feed (radio chatter between cops on the scene).
Seems unlikely that one guy gets pissed off at a party and it results in a coordinated shooting spree by several guys in military gear. Possible, sure.
If I were betting, I’d bet your classic rightwing white guys. Why there, asks PZ? Look at the demonization of the poor and disabled by major rightwing figures over the past decade, the mocking of physically and mentally disabled people. They’re called parasites over and over, subhuman drains on the society. Why wouldn’t some “patriotic” soldier wannabes shoot the place up?
It’d be nice to be wrong, but that’s the odds on bet.
It does boggle the mind.
A third of the attackers were female. The police descriptions during the search were all for middle-eastern or Hispanic looking folks. I think you’ll likely lose your bet.
Apparently the centre that was attacked is regularly rented out for private events, and the people that were attacked were county employees.
Moreover, who has pipe bombs sitting around to use whenever you get pissed at your co-workers?
Curiouser and curiouser.
Gore pic of one of the dead shooters (not super gross, but still: dead body and blood):
http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx307/DougS1957/a5fd981b-481e-41ca-9d3a-526e7aabd1f4_zpslxg4bgcs.png
Their SUV got lit up something fierce.
I am reserving judgement until the authorities have some concrete data. Especially, I am not making any assumptions as to motive or ethnicity.
Neither am I. Just relaying what they are saying on the ground. I’m fully aware that we are in a ‘fog of war’ scenario which is why I didn’t post the dude’s name. There are many mainstream news agencies that are though, all based off the same scanner feed info.
Here’s the other kick in the gut: this was the second mass shooting today. Someone in Savannah GA shot four people. It’s gotten to the point that “only” four people isn’t even worthy of being in the news, and doesn’t have a chance because there will soon be another one with a higher casualty count to bump it off the radar.
Same here. The situation is too fluid, it is hard to tell what information is going to still appear to be valid in a few hours. I am trying to take note of what is being said, but not become fixated on anything right now. There is very little information available so far, and it is hard to make much sense of the bits and pieces that are coming out.
Apparently, it was a fake pipe bomb:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-california-police-respond-shooter-report-35535998
Who the hell makes fake pipe bombs when the real thing is easy enough to build?
This just gets stranger and stranger. Everything about this has been confusing. I thought the pipe bomb seemed to fit poorly with the idea of someone having an altercation and coming back. If it turns out it is fake, then perhaps it was just a diversion. But who knows, it feels like this is all over the place, and tying it together into a coherent narrative is downright impossible at the moment.
White supremacists, eh? Syed Farook is the first identified shooter. But nice racist jumping to conclusions going on around here.
Someone may have been “going postal” in this case. Having accomplices does complicate matters, however.
Gotta roll my eyes at this. I found two comments indicated they would put their money on the person being white, which statistically speaking is a pretty good bet, and there is one comment that mentions Nazis, by someone that apparently thought the social services building itself was the target, and given the popularity of eugenic ideas among that group it seems like a reasonable guess if you want to consider who might want to attack those with development disabilities. Three comments, and two of them are just placing bets. Maybe I missed a couple, but there isn’t a lot of jumping to conclusions going on about race at all, this place seems to be positively restrained compared to what I am seeing elsewhere.
I am seeing an awful lot of assumptions elsewhere though, just search the name on Twitter right now. Just seeing the name Syed Farook is enough for thousands of people to declare this must be an instance of Islamic terrorism, even though their is no indication of this yet, unless some new news has become available in the last few minutes while I type this. I find it amazing that so many people wailed about how unfair it was to consider the possibility that a guy shooting at Planned Parenthood might be linked to anti-abortion views, but are willing to immediately declare something related to Islam as soon as they hear a name.
This sounds like textbook getting back at coworkers, except indeed for the part about having accomplices.
Travis, I counted seven allusions to white shooters on this site not three, but I might have missed some. Also, regarding jumping to the terrorism conclusion, Caine unequivocally chimes in with that label @7, although I’m guessing Caine would like to have that assessment back now that it’s becoming apparent the color of the assailant’s skin is brown.
Travis at 70: It started well before a name was mentioned; or at least before I read the name, and I’ve been following this fairly closely.
So far, anyway, I’ve been impressed with the official response. I have not read any speculation from the police on the scene as to motive, though I did read that the person who originally released the name of Syed Farook had not been given permission to do so. But I’m 2000 miles away, so I’m sure I’m missing a lot.
rustybrown: Caine did not mention skin color, so your comment makes little sense. And, as others have said, speculating that it was white gunmen is not a bad bet, since it usually is.
“I’m getting info from the raw police scanner feed (radio chatter between cops on the scene).”
Ah, so the same method Redditors used to “identify” the Boston bombers? No thanks.
rustybrown #72
re: Caine
What the fuck are you on about?
A search only finds 12 mentions of the word. Four are in your post and mine. Christopher’s posts at 43 and 58 mention the word, but both suggest reports are saying the suspects had dark skin, and are not alluding to their being white. #12 mentions white people, but in the context of how we decide what we label as terrorism, but does not suggest anything specific about this attack. #38 both mentions white shooters, but are not suggesting the shooter was white. One is on the sidebar.
I just read through the comments again and I am not seeing much at all speculating about their being white, let alone white supremacists.
rustybrown @68:
It is neither unreasonable nor racist to reach a tentative conclusion that the terrorists in San Bernardino were white men bc the vast majority of terrorist acts and mass shootings in the United States since 9/11 were committed by white men. Yes, it turns out that one of the shooters was Muslim, but while that changes *this* incident, it still doesn’t change the fact that white men are the ones who commit most of these types of horrific actions.
Travis,
I didn’t say the word “white” was used. In fact, I hinted that the word was avoided; perhaps you should look up the definition of “allusion” (to white shooters), that’s the word I used.
I still haven’t said the dude’s name even though most all major news organizations are now running with it, all attributed to anonymous police sources of course. It is probably him though. His father and brother in law have already been interviewed by the news vultures so if it isnt him the next family reunion is going to be hella awkward.
If you want to talk 4chan meme stupidity, there is a rumor going around that the woman is from Qatar but has the same name as the president of Turkey.
@76
My point is does Caine still insist it’s terrorism now that the shooters appear to be, er, ethnic?
rustybrown
stop digging
Rusty, I know that. I did the search as a preliminary test to see what came up, and if I missed anything completely obvious. As I then mentioned after that, I read through all of the comments again, looking for allusions, and did not see any more speculating about it, using any language, just the few I had seen earlier.
But if you see more, please feel free to be specific. You can point them out so everyone can evaluate these posts and see how much jumping to conclusions there has been. So far you have been rather light on specifics.
Tony,
Since 911, eh? My, what a convenient timeframe for your narrative. Back it up by one day and your argument is absurdly wrong.
There are reports coming out that the shooters were wearing GoPro cameras for the whole ordeal.
I can’t even…
Who’s digging? Caine asserts this is terrorism. Period.
rustybrown
What the everlovingfuck does ethnicity have to do with terrorism?
Police press conference: it was Sayed Farook and his fiancée or wife Tashveem Malik. They are claiming that there likely wasn’t a third shooter.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-bernardino-shooting-live-updates-htmlstory.html
Both dead suspects identified
The male and female suspects who died in a gun battle with police this afternoon were Syed Rizwan Farook, 28, and Tashfeen Malik, 27, San Bernardino’s police chief announced.
Farook was born in the U.S. and worked as a county employee, and Malik’s nationality was not yet known, Chief Jarrod Burguan said.
The pair had a relationship, he said: They were either married or engaged.
Each had an assault rifle and a semiautomatic handgun when they died, he said.
Burguan said police are confident there were two shooters in this morning’s massacre.
@87
Nothing. Never said it did.
@fossilfishy:
I’m in the US and see the rise of fascism in many areas, especially Republican dominated localities. You are not necessarily wrong in your assessment. it’s been a long build-up, but it may possibly be rectified at some point.
@rustybrown:
Go ahead and add 9/11. Better yet, go even further back to the 60’s. The vast majority of attacks, and even deaths, can still be attributed to white shooters in the USA. So there was one major terrorist attack, 9/11, that was perpetrated by Muslims. There was also the 1993 bombing of the WTC which killed 6 and injured around 1000. The Oklahoma City bomb (perpetrated by a white terrorist) was more damaging and was definitely not the only one in the last 40 years.
For someone that does not like people jumping to conclusions, rustybrown seems to like jumping to conclusions. In response to my post where I specifically mentioned Islamic terrorism, and jumping to that conclusion based on a name alone, rustybrown said:
Suddenly rustybrown thinks any mention of terrorism will do. And of course, since rustybrown hates jumping to conclusions, rustybrown jumps to the conclusion that new revelations would change Caine’s mind.
Anyway, I am done with this. It is late. I am sorry I started it by replying to the first comment, as this is just sad.
rustybrown: you’re still wrong. Though 9/11 was horrific, it does not change the fact that most incidents involving mass killings, particularly shootings, are carried out by white men. So speculation about it is not unreasonable, and certainly not racist.
And when white men do these things, we always see them described as mentally ill, or ‘disgruntled’. Some of them are, but many are politically motivated, but this is dismissed.
Personally, I don’t care what the ethnic background of a killer is. This is a terrible thing that happened.
But you just go ahead and keep on stirring the pot.
rustybrown #90
Note that it is possible to address a commenter by name.
—
What does your #81 mean, then?
Travis@92,
Wrong. I said it was my guess, not a conclusion. You really have a problem with understanding the meaning of words, don’t you? That is sad.
@94,
Exactly what it says. It’s a question. My guess is the answer is “no”. I could be wrong.
かわいい。
Idiot @ 81:
Yes, it’s still terrorism, you fucking idiot. Domestic terrorism, just like the PP shooting.
Chigau @ 97:
彼の心を祝福
Caine #99
本当
I like that.
I’ve never tried “bless yer heart” in 日本語.
Only someone who is ignorant, racist, or of course, both, uses the term “ethnic” in this way. If any person is “ethnic” (the word is not correctly applied as an adjective to indiviudals at all), then everyone is “ethnic”, because we all belong to ethnic groups, and have ethnic characteristics
I see quite a bit of foolishly premature speculation above. From what we know so far, the motive for these murders could be personal, political, or a mixture of both. Whichever is the case, we can be certain that the fact that the murderers came from a Muslim background (we don’t yet know they were themselves Muslims, although that would be a reasonable provisional assumption) will be used to the full by bigots of both the Christian and the atheist variety.
I’m dodging all of the speculation and counter-speculation, because the Onion put this better already: just another day in the USA, and there’s nothing at all that the most powerful nation on earth will do about it.
Onion May 27 2014 http://www.theonion.com/article/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-36131
Onion June 17 2015 http://www.theonion.com/article/no-way-prevent-says-only-nation-where-regularly-ha-51443
Onion Oct 1 2015 http://www.theonion.com/article/no-way-prevent-says-only-nation-where-regularly-ha-51444
This is awful. All the talk about how the police need more guns and bigger Bearcats (after the victims have died) is irrelevant — sorry Christopher, you can turn off your scanner now. What’s needed is no guns. Fewer guns would be a start, but I’ll leave that sort of advanced thinking to the most advanced nation.
I am so saddened by all this; a local paper where I live (Canada) tells me that the U.S. now is up to over 1 mass shooting per day. To say this boggles the mind is a woeful understatement.
I heard a Canadian reporter (who works out of L.A.) on the radio this morning giving her take on how local people were reacting to the San Bernardino events; when asked if she thought about this leading to any kind of gun restrictions, her answer was a flat-out “No. Nothing will ever change. It’s in the Constitution.” But, in the very next breath, she said, “This can’t go on.”
Nothing in her tone gave any indication of her being aware of the contradiction; but I put that down to still being a bit shaken up by the proximity of the event.
quotetheunquote: There is no contradiction between wanting a horrible situation to end and expecting it to continue.
I see Chief Gun Apologist Christopher is here within moments of anything critical of guns as usual.
Quotetheunquote@104, yes, it is in the constitution and was added as an amendment. Just as the ludicrous 18th amendment, the source of so many illicit fortunes, was eventually repealed by the XXI amendment, presumably the second amendment could be repealed. The problem is of course finding the majority to do it. From the outside it seems that decent US citizens are outnumbered by clowns, crazies, the uneducated and the downright evil.
You Americans and your funny little ways.
I am so saddened by all this; a local paper where I live (Canada) tells me that the U.S. now is up to over 1 mass shooting per day. To say this boggles the mind is a woeful understatement.
Of course, that’s only part of all the injuries and deaths (per unit time) due to guns, because that doesn’t count incidents with less than four victims, who are just as dead and/or injured. The Brady site has stats that are even more depressing, some a bit dated but presumably still fairly accurate, since nothing much changes in this fucked up country:
Sorry, my first paragraph above should’ve been a blockquote….. from quotetheunquote #104
Change “race” to “religion” and you’re spot on.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/208622.pdf
Penny L, #111
You’re wrong. Islamic governments and countries that are overwhelmingly Muslim are awesome pinnacles of equality and fairness. They don’t have any bigotry or religious violence issues and definitely don’t oppress minorities, women, and LGBT people.
^ There. I set up a nice fat strawman for you. Have at it in this thread. Hopefully you’ll stop infecting future such threads with it.
Not sure how self-aware Penny L is. “Cleansing” us of Muslims, along with punishing those who’d help them, is fascism, and…???
@ quotetheunquote
I am so saddened by all this; a local paper where I live (Canada) tells me that the U.S. now is up to over 1 mass shooting per day.
I live in Canada too, and, I’m afraid, that my reaction was more “Oh, another US mass shooting”.
It’s horrible but they are becoming so common as to be hardly remarked upon.
And while the perpetrators here may not be the usual suspects, it seems that most attackers are mentally unstable individuals who should never have been allowed near a paring knife let alone a firearm.
False. From one of the recent NYT articles, which is a more reliable source than whatever happened to crawl out of your ass:
It’s often been noted that people with mental disorders are more likely to be victims of violence and abuse, not the ones responsible for it.
You want to allow a “stable” person near a firearm, then this is exactly the kind of shit you’re asking for.
Why you bringing Islam into this now, Penny?
@jrkrideau #114
Can we not bring in mental health issues into this again? People suffering from mental illness are far more likely to be victims, and not instigators, of violence, and clamoring on teh crayzies only adds to stigma towards them.
I’m thinking these idiots got the wrong target because they made assumptions about the building without even scoping it out first. What else would you expect? These people tend not to want to learn about the world anyway.
There isn’t even the least connection between the things Penny L quoted. I think the matrix is coming apart…
consciousness razor, #115
That’s a great article. You’d think the observation about mental illness combined with this:
Would settle it for the GOP.
Cain@98,
No need to get hot under the collar sweetheart, you’re entitled to your opinion! On the other hand, I’m afraid your certainty in this matter is hysterical and premature.
methuseus@98,
“The vast majority of attacks, and even deaths, can still be attributed to white shooters in the USA.”
What planet are you on? Because on this one, nonwhite assailants are responsible for the vast, VAST majority of the injuries and deaths from terrorist attacks and related incidents (mass shootings, etc.). It isn’t even close. You should really do a bit a research before spouting such nonsense.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp255a.html
Fuck you Holms. I posted because this happened on the other side of my valley and I had been glued to the live scanner feed for hours and thus was as well updated on the facts of the case as anyone.
That did seem unwarranted, Holms; however egregious Christopher’s behaviour has been on other threads, he’s been nothing but informative on this one, and I haven’t seen any words from him about how more guns would have helped.
There are plenty of egregious assholes already in thread, we don’t need to drag in conflicts from another thread. PennyL is being the usual anti-Muslim bigot, we’ve got the misogynist Troll baiting Caine, plenty to be ireful at.
It seems obvious that the motive was personal, since the male shooter worked there for five years, attended the party last year, and attended the party this year before he stormed out.
Possibly this is preaching to the choir (excluding Christopher who probably doesn’t see it this way), but to the civilised world it looks like USAnians (a) appreciate their mis-read constitutional right to go angry gunfucknutmadshoot each other, and (b) resent anyone who thinks that angry gunfucknutmadshootery isn’t civilised.
For those USA folks who don’t think that way, it seems most are either reasonably happy to leave it that way, or just shit-scared of doing anything about it.
This uniquely USA way of settling scores baffles me.
Regarding the NRA and it’s opposition to those on the terror watch list losing their right to buy a gun:
What other right should these US citizens lose? Why are they not at Gitmo undergoing enhanced interrogation? Why are they allowed to vote? Why are they not being constantly searched by police?
Why is the ACLU against the no-fly list?
So many questions and so many progressives.
fuck off rusty, your condescending paternalism is noted, dismissed, and considered fucking awful,
Oh this should be good.
amazing.
The Troll Quotient in this thread is very high.
So many non-sequiturs and assholery from reactionaries.
[Noted and dismissed. Bye. –pzm]
Did dirty words make you swoon? its alright cupcake you’ll grow up and be able to deal with them without getting in a huff and dismissing the content.
@131
The ACLU has been dead set against watch lists and was the liberal (let the girl drown hero Ted Kennedy not on one of these lists?
Why don’t they ever talk to each other?
Just to keep you progressives consistent:
Here are your own authors bemoaning the no-fly list:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2014/04/24/using-the-no-fly-list-as-a-means-of-coercion/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2014/06/25/judge-rules-no-fly-list-to-be-unconstitutional/
What is good for the goose is good for the gander, right?
[…let me guess, you’re here to represent the 4chan side. Bye. –pzm]
I would handhold you, Jeff Chang, into exactly what is wrong with everything you’ve said, but I imagine it’s going to go nowhere fast because you don’t seem to be able to understand logic.
but I’ll try.
1) Yes liberal organisations are against no fly lists, because often they are problematic in how they are set up, filled, and why you can be placed on one.
2) the GOP, NRA, and various right wingers are not. they consider those loss of rights to be a price to pay to fight teh mooslims
3) The GOP, fans of profiling, are unwilling to restrict guns even in the slightest even against those they consider a clear and present threat (also and further, a terrorist watchlist =/= nofly list but w/e)
The shooters flew to the Inland Regional Center?
Dark Jaguar@118,
It would be a good idea to look at what is known before commenting. One of the perpetrators, Syed Rizwan Farook, was a co-worker with at least some of the victims. The event attacked was a party for employees of the San Bernadino public health department, of whom he was one.
@ 117 Tashiliciously Shriked
I did not intend to imply the persons involved in the shooting were “people suffering from mental illness”. I meant “unstable” as in some gun nuts, survivalists, perhaps members of the KKK, mad racists, and various religious nutters.
Your standard or garden schizophrenic is not a likely candidate to go on a mass-murdering rampage. I agree, that people with mental health problems are more likely to be victims of crime.
Well.
That just leaves Penny L.
re rutybrown wrote@122:
I looked at the link rustybrown provided and summarize some of those stats here:
.year:…deaths..|…injures…| attacker…]…[ deaths | injuries..| attacker
2014:……9……|……1…….|.rightwing..]…[…….7….|……5……| islamic ]
2015:……9……|……1…….|.rightwing..]…[…….9….|……6……| islamic ]
appears we have different definitions of “VAST”.
awww pz why did you get rid of my chew toy :(
re 143:
the source that rusty linked to in #122, and I used for @143, is this:
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp255a.html
[just in case all his trash gets removed]
BBC reports San Bernadino police saying bomb equipment, weapons, thousands of rounds of ammunition found at the murderers’ home.
Strange that the Johnston Archive doesn’t include the Isla Vista killings.
cnocspeireag @107
Speaking as someone who lives in a town that was the site of a high-profile mass shooting just a mere two months ago, it really seems that way on the inside, too. That shooting was really the best advertising that any of the local gun vendors could have possibly gotten.
A lot of dots, some not yet found I’m sure, are going to have to be connected before the motives behind this horrific act are understood. I have to wonder if it was a botched job on the perps part, because it appears to be an act that wasn’t planned as much as provoked by some inadvertent thing. What made the guy angry? I’ve seen a report about him leaving in anger from the conference room from a survivor, so hopefully more details will be forthcoming about it.
the thing that bothers me about this incident besides the simple horrific nature of gunning down a lot of people is the shooters are dead and dead in the street to boot. What ever was going on inside their heads will only be told to us by the authorities and I can’t help but always seem to have just a little bit of suspicion of what they say.
I heard some of the press conference where the spokes man stated that they found hundreds of tools that could be used to make bombs. That was a very slanted description because I’m thinking that you could find tools in most homes and garages that could be used to make bombs, bombs do not require exotic tools ordinary hand tools are sufficient.
just one point there are and will be many others that will be used to paint the picture that is preferred.
uncle frogy
@ #150
What is the alternative? It’s not as though you can go inspect things for yourself.
@150
It’s not just the tools but the finding of actual pipe bombs in the perp’s home and at the scene that’s clear evidence of intent to bomb something. The stockpiling of ammunition, the body armor, are also an indicator of attack pre-planning as well. The SUV they used was rented a few days earlier and was due back in a few more days, so something was up. It’s the conflation of workplace violence with possible terrorist motivations that’s the mystery, as I said earlier.
Not sure how self-aware consciousness razor is. Who, exactly, is doing the cleansing?
I didn’t bring Islam into this, Syed Farook did.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/03/us/san-bernardino-shooting/index.html
@151 & @152
That is what bothers me some about these things. I have no direct knowledge of the objective facts nor do I have the direct testimony of the the people accused as they are now very dead.
I do not have blind faith in the authorities either they are involved in building a case and tend to present the facts in such a way to further that end and what ever political end they may have.
I feel kind of at the mercy of things and
the heated debate with this side and that and the other does not reassure me much
but it is better than silence whoever!
uncle frogy
I eagerly await the mighty US to liberate / bring democracy Muslim Saudi Arabia.
Oh no, wait, they have a real army and powerful political ties with the US.
Nevermind then. Keep slaughtering the poor.
Also, I can’t wrap my head around the fact that Constitutional wankers think automatic weapons are untouchable, but it’s ok to arbitrarily ban people from boarding planes.
If I were living there and had the slightest opportunity to get the fuck off of “the land of the free”, I’d do it in a second.
Granted, not that the rest of the world doesn’t have problems, and maybe living in the US is good if you are rich, but are you really happy to be rich and surrounded by misery?
@155
who’s rich?
uncle frogy
unclefrogy: indeed. I saw pictures of the SUV; it got turned into swiss cheese. It might have been justified. My skepticism is pretty high though.
@F.O.#155
It was republicans who propagated and later on succesfully put throught federal ban on switchblades in USA. And shurikens and some other cold weapons as well. Members of that very same party get nearly apoplectic at the mere mention that perhaps ban on firearms were more reasonable.
As an EUropean I cannot wrap my head around this logic at all. I mean, in EU some countries too nonsensically ban some cold weapons that actually have practical “notasaweapon” use (like switchblades etc.). BUT these bans are not vigorously enforced unless an actual crime is commited (contrast this with US where people are killed for mere suspicion of posessing an “illegal knife”) and at the same time firearms are subject to very heavy regulation that IS enforced vigorously (albeit not perfectly). The evidence speaks volumes, and Paris attack does not change it one little bit – to reduce the availability of firearms means to reduce the occurence of deaths due to their use – and makes terrorism with their use more difficult therefore less occuring (Paris attackers and Breivik and virtually every other succesfull terrorist in EU had to organise their attacks longer time, with more difficulty and it would fail if they were ever caught while possessing weapons – even for example at random alcohol test while driving).
Penny L, #153
And it’s still a strawman, you dumb shit, because the people you’re conversing with here are not saying Islamic theocracies or Saudi government and society isn’t a horrible thing. Nothing even close to it.
Charly@158:
No they aren’t. People are killed for suspicion of being black and uppity. Then the murderers look for excuses.
numerobis @ 160:
A small fix, numberobis. A high number of Indians in the States and Canada have been murdered by cops for having a knife or suspicion of having a knife, including that most terrible pocket knife.
Up thread something was said about the event being a staff Christmas party, an often repeated description of the event in the last two days. I was just reading in the Washington Post that the event was actually a semi-annual staff training session, not a party. The article also indicates that there was a break in the proceedings when Syed stepped out, and no altercation.
I point this out because, as is so often the case, and as most of you probably know, the first news about these sort of events is often the least reliable. Yet people will remember the first words they hear, not the follow up clarifications. Fox News will probably repeat the Christmas party meme from now until the next horror fills the news void.
robro wrote @162:
right you are: Daily Show (or Nightly Show), last night, showed that Foxy is already declaring this “event”, was a salvo from .
There is now reportedly a connection with the Islamic State with the perps, at least in spirit.
Shooting Suspect Pledged Support To Islamic State Using Alias Before Attack
Great. This will lead to nothing good. Just more trampling of our rights to go about our business without be intruded upon by those who would keep us “safe” from terrorists.
Isla Vista, 23 May 2014. A white (presumably Christian) male kills 6 people at a Sorority house. The attacker was involved with mysogynistic internet-culture and shortly before the attack, he posted a video in which he blamed women for what was about to happen. “Disturbed loner. Not represenatative of the larger group he could be associated with.”
Charleston, 17 June 2015. A white Christian man kills 9 peopele during service in a well-known African American church. The church was known for its longstanding involvement in the Civil Rights movement. The attracker maintained a white supremacy website and several photos exist of the attacker posing with symbols of white supremacy and racist groups. “Disturbed loner. Not represenatative of the larger group he could be associated with.”
Colorado Springs, 27 November 2015. A white Christian male kills 3 people at a planned parenthood clinic. He seems to have been active on the internet, ranting about the end times and sinse of other people. Investigations are still ongoing, but the impression th emedia is currently giving is that he was a … “disturbed loner. Not represenatative of the larger group he could be associated with.”
San Bernardino, 02 December 2015. A non-white Muslim male and a non-white muslim female kill 14 people at the place where the man works. Preliminary investigation seems to show that one of the killers has posted a Facebook post, expressing support for Daesh. “Terrorists!”
Huh … so people who are exercising their US constitutional right to bear arms can be terrorists … who knew? So could somebody please explain to this non-USian what is the difference between those first three terrorists and the last sample that only the last ones get the label?
I’ll grant that the nearness explains the rapidity with which you arrived, yet you remain one of the biggest supporters of gun proliferation around.
You might have missed post 40, which supports the militarisation of police.