Comments

  1. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

    Yup, Azkyroth. GMW justifies it to themselves by saying that they’re protecting the watershed, and maybe they have a case for such. But if that’s true then they should show their evidence and state their intentions outright rather than stuffing people around they way they have been. Our story is only unique in that we manged to get it done in the end.

  2. Janine: Hallucinating Liar says

    Took a trip to the pit. I do not know what their old banner was but they do have a new one.

    Gleefully Tap Dancing on the Grave of A+Theism (in Designer Shoes Bought With Dodgy Money!)

  3. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    I’m sitting in a gay bar suffering through one of the insipid Austin Powers movies so that I can comment with Internet access on my laptop.
    Yes, I value this place that much :)

  4. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Perfect. Caramel Bailey’s is a thing, it’s just $18/750ml instead of ~$6 like the creme de menthe and butterscotch schnapps (I used a mini of the caramel vodka).

    Bailey’s has a relatively low specific gravity (proportional to density), from my subsequent braving of googling, but it has a pretty high viscosity from what I remember of the period between when I curiously got some and when my ex guzzled the bottle in one of her relapses, so that might work to stabilize the non-mixture for a bit. Actually, that could be a pretty dramatic effect…from the charts it seems like the creme de menthe (sg 1.1) would cascade down through the Bailey’s (1.05) and mix with the butterscotch schnapps (1.12)). …or premix the creme de menthe with the vodka, which is generally about .94 or so…

    Well, this appears to have become an engineering problem. :D

    I SO call naming rights on this. :D

  5. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    …and, damn, that was REALLY good and I’m out of caramel vodka :(

    (I have the vague impression the caramel-mint combination probably SOUNDS horrifying, but… ^.^)

  6. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Janine:
    Not only did I follow your lead and venture into the ‘Pit…it was my first time there. I think it will be my last. And I need a shower. Or two.

  7. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Pteryxx:
    Layering can also be done with a cherry (provided it still has a stem).

  8. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    I want to sharpen my out of use fangs but there’s only jackshit on the Matt Dillahunty thread. =(

    Also, Tony I’m glad you can withstand Austin Powers for us.

    I’m loopy. Medicine + No Sleep = Not Good. But I’ve been up so long, if I go to sleep I won’t get up in time to get Little One to school. So staying up is the only option.

    And I need to stop reading ARC copies of books because I can’t talk with anyone about them since nobody else has read them. =(

  9. StevoR, fallible human being says

    If people haven’t already watched this doco on what was done to the Chagossians :

    http://johnpilger.com/videos/stealing-a-nation

    Please do. Bloody hell that is horrendous, moving and powerful stuff.

    Thanks again to mikeconley (my original source here : http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/06/i-dont-knowamericans-have-an-amazing-capacity-for-self-delusion/comment-page-1/#comment-530282 ) & Maureen Brian for informing me of this.

    More people – everyone – should know. And justice and restititution as much as it can be done now should be done too. Bloody hell.

  10. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Well, that happened faster than I thought.
    I *literally* just got an email from Jim.
    It reads:
    “Good evening sir.
    I was having a hard time with some loneliness over the holidays, and was really reaching out for some companionship. I am sorry for being so awkward. Would you mind if I asked you some questions about your life and experiences? nothing too personal I promise. If you want me to stop talking, just don’t respond and this will be the last you hear from me.”

    I told him I didn’t mind and to ask away.

    Aaaaand he followed up pretty quickly.

  11. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    JAL:
    I am suffering. Thankfully it *just* ended.
    I found *nothing* funny about the movie.
    Why do people like Mike Myers?

  12. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    And now they’re playing “Dennis the Menace” the movie.
    I.
    Am.
    In.
    Hell.

    Someone save me.
    Please.

  13. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    Tony, I haven’t a clue. Though I did like him as Shrek because it wasn’t really him, just his voice.

  14. opposablethumbs says

    Glad to hear the better tooth news, JAL. If this first assessment-and-meds appointment goes as it should, would you be able to stay with the same people for the treatment you need?
    .
    Good to know that the Fishy family is safe – stay that way!
    .
    Tony, yay for hearing from Jim – especially after the way he rather desperately burned his bridges before by deleting the email account, which suggests he was really trying to stop himself from “giving in to the temptation” of talking with you (I’m only guessing, obviously, but it sounds like that). Hope he doesn’t decide to close his eyes and put his hands over his ears again later – from your account he must be pretty conflicted – but talking with someone as compassionate and honest as you can only help him.

  15. athyco says

    Today was a good day. My son had a seizure six months and one day ago, and this morning his neurologist did the final EEG and faxed to the state his clearance to drive. Woooohoooooo, I’m freeeeee from chauffeur-itude!

    Of course, he drove me home after the appointment and has been gone all day watching Alabama win the championship and celebrating with his buds. He did call me a couple of times with the greeting we’d agreed upon when he was sixteen, even with this six-month haitus. “Hi, mom. I’m fine; car’s fine.”

  16. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Athyco:
    Awesome. Glad your son is doing much better. If i may, what brought on the seizures?

    ****
    I have never encountered someone as incapable of apologizing as jacksul.

  17. Nepenthe says

    @athyco

    Wonderful news. Maybe you could have a chauffeur for a bit; turnabout’s fair play.


    @Tony

    Given his speaking style, it seems that jacksul has never encountered someone, let alone apologized to them. Maybe we should give them a break; it must be unsettling talking to human beings for the first time.

    … Nah.

  18. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    athyco, I’m so happy for you and your son. That’s great news!
    ————–
    ————-

    You’ve seen “Wayne’s World”, right?

    Yes. Not my kind of movie, though it has it’s moments. It is totally lost on me since I didn’t see it when it was a big thing and now I just can’t do it. I am a youngin’ and all.

  19. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    Given his speaking style, it seems that jacksul has never encountered someone, let alone apologized to them. Maybe we should give them a break; it must be unsettling talking to human beings for the first time.

    … Nah.,

    I’m a loss to how anyone can stand the jackass. So. Annoying.

  20. says

    Hi there
    Oh ya gods I need a nap.
    At 4am the little one decided that her bed was way too far away from me and came over and I tell you that kid snores like she’s trying to become the next Granny Weatherwax. And that when I only went to bed at 12 and had to get up at 6.

    +++
    censorship
    People really don’t know what that word means. I just went to a guest lecture about problems of translations from English into different varieties of Spanish and from Spanish into German.
    And he called one of his points “traducción con sabor a censura” (translation that tastes of censorship).
    What was his point? That different translations deal differently with stereotypes and taboos. His first example was from House where the original is “some Mexican guy” where Mexican alone says “incompetent criminal”, which is translated as “criminal mexicano” in the Spanish version and as “carnicero” (butcher) in the Latin American one. Or that you can’t just translate a humerous Nazi allusion in English into German. While it might work in English to answer “Ja mein Führer” if somebody bosses you around, in German that would be such a shock and taboo that the effect isn’t the one you want.
    That’s not fucking censorhip.

    +++
    Also, the human mind is fascinating. Last night I took care of gran cause my sister needed a day off. And the later the evening the more gran’s dementia gets her. What is striking is that she doesn’t so much lose memory, but the emotional connection. She recognizes that this is her kitchen cupboard, and that this really looks like her TV, and her living room, but insists that it isn’t and that she wants to go home.

    +++
    JAL
    Yay for getting teeth done. Hope they can help you quickly.




    Do you think we should ask Renee if that’s OK?

    Welcome back feralboy
    I’m glad to hear your health is better, I’m sad to hear the financial situation isn’t :(

    athyco
    Yay for your son’s health.

  21. athyco says

    Tony:

    Awesome. Glad your son is doing much better. If i may, what brought on the seizures?

    ****
    I have never encountered someone as incapable of apologizing as jacksul.

    From what we can figure, anti-depressants. He had a seizure at 17 after five weeks on Welbutrin. He had this seizure at 21 after six weeks on Prozac. Yeah, I know. Weird.

    Nepenthe:

    Wonderful news. Maybe you could have a chauffeur for a bit; turnabout’s fair play.

    LOL….the turnabout will have to wait. Both of us are very happy that we don’t HAVE to be in the car with each other for at least an hour every workday. He said that at red lights, he’d lean over and do a drumbeat on the empty passenger seat.

    JAL:

    Yes. Not my kind of movie, though it has it’s moments. It is totally lost on me since I didn’t see it when it was a big thing and now I just can’t do it. I am a youngin’ and all.

    I really don’t like the “it’s funny because it’s stupid” movies. Did you ever see The Groove Tube? The park bench “puppet” doing a PSA about VD cracked me the hell up, especially when there could be such great arguments afterwards. Did the laughter of women in the audience start first (as it so obviously did) because the guys didn’t recognize a penis with attached googly eyes and testicles in clothing? Or were they shellshocked wondering if their dates would recognize it?

  22. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    I really don’t like the “it’s funny because it’s stupid” movies

    Same here. Part of it is I feel other people’s embarrassment – even when they don’t feel embarrassed and people are making fun of them without them knowing. Watching someone get laughed at while they are oblivious to the slight is so depressing, and annoying.

    I also just can’t buy into the outrageous situations in these kind of movies. Like Pineapple Express, Dumb and Dumber, and um…..I can’t think of any but I know there’s more.

  23. athyco says

    My son loves such movies. He and his girlfriend will sometimes quote them if they’re in the kitchen cooking dinner. If I ask them what they’re talking about, they explain, but I don’t find it funny unless there’s something to pick at and riff on. They still like the easy level of it, but they’re beginning to agree with me that it’s more fun to take it to the next level or to stand it on its head so that punching down becomes punching up.

    Too many people just want to repeat and haw haw at the quote for the eleventy first time, until it seems that every bit of funny is just a catchphrase.

    Tony got a dose of it with Austin Powers at work tonight. ¡Pobrecito!

  24. rq says

    Good morning!
    Handshakes, welcomes, hugs, and various greetings and well wishes to those requiring, wanting, or simply lying in the path of.

    FossilFishy
    Thank you for the kind words and that description of… well, I’m not sure what to call it, except bureaucracy. That seems insult enough.
    We are (or at least, were) in a race between the bank and paperwork. But I have good news: Today this potential house issue was resolved – dates have been appropriately shuffled and nobody is screaming about the changes.
    See, the current owner is trying to GTHOOTC AFAP and had originally stipulated that the down-payment should be made this week (by Wednesday), all other paperwork to follow within the week, and final transfer of funds sometime next week. Well.
    Getting the money from the bank, as such, wasn’t the issue – the issue was timing. Last Friday, when we were still in the maaaaaaybe phase of thought, Husband told the bank to transfer the cash in the savings account to his regular account for use – this process takes a week, meaning earliest access = this coming Friday.
    Oops! That was the first run-in. Then, seeing as we were threatened with a second set of buyers (classic, I know) and we started exploring all other associated paperwork (valuing the house, legal transfer documents, submission to bank for money, etc.), we realized there was no way in hell we were going to make the week deadline.
    Thankfully, most of that paperwork applies to everyone, so we eventually figured out that the other buyers wouldn’t be any faster than we would be (ah, bank committee, how I love thee sometimes!). That being said, we were still under a requirement to have the down payment transferred by Wednesday. But today, due to all other paperwork needing a few more days than the current owners would like (although I suspect they’re secretly pleased in not needing to be in such a rush to get all their stuff out of the house), all paperwork and down payment transfers will be made on Friday, when everything is accessible. In the meantime, we’d been scrambling for a way to get a two-week (equivalent of) $4000 loan from friends or relatives, just to have the down payment in and transferred and the house ours. Some disappointment was imminent, since we have no relations or friends with that kind of ready cash.
    As it stands, we’re still (theoretically) in potential-house territory, but since all parties have signed intent-to-buy/sell contracts in advance of signing the actual contracts, I think we’re good… Oh, this is what the first floor will look like in about 3 – 5 years. The current floorplan looks like this. Sorry the angles are different. But I think it’s obvious we have a big plan for the house. If this week ends well, nothing can stop us! Except a lot of bureaucracy. ;)

  25. rq says

    Vicki
    re: lmgtfy and the quest for information

    Sometimes I just want the information, which is when I do google it for myself. Sometimes I want a human opinion/experience on something, or the dominant version within my group of acquaintances, etc., which is when I ask the question. Because I’ve probably googled it myself, but want to know what other people think of it, while phrasing the question slightly differently than ‘What does everybody think of [insert topic du jour here]?’
    Which is why, sometimes, when somebody just points in the direction of google, I find that my point has been missed completely, and my question considered inconsequential and not worth the attention.

  26. StevoR, fallible human being says

    @524. opposablethumbs : Cheers. Signed. It worked so still ok obviously.

  27. StevoR, fallible human being says

    @513. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism)

    And now they’re playing “Dennis the Menace” the movie.
    I.
    Am.
    In.
    Hell.

    Someone save me.
    Please.

    You realise there’s an “off” switch and a outside world right? Surely?

    Not sure how else I can do that.

    Also, how did you end up in a lunar crater named for a Hungarian Jesuit priest again?

    ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_(crater) )

  28. ImaginesABeach says

    Thanks, JAL and chigau for the offers to share a virtual rat (should that be “virtually share a rat?”). I don’t think I’m well suited for rat virtual-parenting. When Zoe died, I cried on and off for 2 days, and if I scroll too far down on Rattitude, I still get weepy.

  29. rq says

    StevoR
    [context] Tony was typing from a bar with internet access in order to communicate with the rest of us. Not so easy to hit the Off switch, in that case.

    Tony
    Your sacrifices are admirable, o persistent one! I’m with you on the stupid-funny movies. Can’t stand them. I never enjoyed Home Alone (or any of its sequels), and had a difficult time finding the humour in Austin Powers. I have not seen Dennis the Menace, and I don’t intend to.

    +++

    Warning, movie review for The Hobbit!!!

    Overall, it was decent. Way too long for the book, mainly for two reasons: (1) unnecessary addition of a minor story-line for increased conflict and violence (you know the kinds, the final one-on-one stand-off between long-time enemies, because there is none originally in the book); and (2) unnecessary addition of a minor story-line for increased fear and ghosts (too much anticipatory prequelling for the LotR, esp. in relation to Saruman and his protagonist/antagonist roles).
    Things I enjoyed: (1) the scenery; (2) Radagast had his moments; (3) Gandalf; (4) the rock giant fight (the only part in the movie that more than did justice to the book, and which was deservedly extended for awesome viewing pleasure); (5) the dwarf songs; (6) the goblin king was a special kind of terrible, ugly, and dastardly; (7) opening sequence with dragon, excepting colour tonality (as mentioned below).
    Things I did not enjoy: (1) colour scheme (Mano Singham had a great post about the teal-orange dichotomy of movie colour schemes these days, and it really stuck out in these movies – I was hoping for colourful, lush, green-red-yellow-blue-violet-black-silver-gold-white tones, and instead got mainly teal-orange); (2) to my mind, Rivendell was never that fancy in the book, but… ok, fine; (3) from this movie, one can guess that Saruman will turn out evil, which isn’t hinted at in the beginning of LotR until Gandalf’s fateful journey to see him; (4) the way Bildo found the ring (admittedly plausible, but completely without any of the random accidental-ness of the book); (5) all parts involving Azog (just unnecessary attempts to make a children’s story into an adult one, with obligatory good-evil dichotomy); (6) Galadriel and her reasons for being in the movie, besides standing serenely and looking beautiful (I know, I know, women and all that, but they could have left all women out of it, and be spared the shoddy attempts at inclusion that just stick women right back into the role of looking pretty because pretty).
    In conclusion, they could have made it a delightful children’s movie that adults can enjoy by sticking to a great story about greed and friendship and the ability to do more than one believes of oneself if given the opportunity. They have chosen to make it a formula-blockbuster with only some of the charm and humour the book holds. They made it too long, too serious, too weighty. Much of the dead-pan, subtle humour of the book is lost in the movie, which made me sad (quite a few of Gandalf’s lines and his exchanges with Thorin and Bilbo spring to mind).
    I no longer have high hopes for the other movies, but they can’t get any worse. And once all movies are out, my sister promised to cut them to pieces and stick all the good parts into a glorious, unified single Hobbit movie for private use (and sharing among friends).

  30. StevoR, fallible human being says

    @536. rq

    StevoR – [context] Tony was typing from a bar with internet access in order to communicate with the rest of us. Not so easy to hit the Off switch, in that case.

    Ah, ok, didn’t know that. Fair enough then.

  31. opposablethumbs says

    StevoR #535

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2013/01/08/rape-prevention-aimed-at-rapists-does-work/

    ^ This. Greta Christina sums it up brilliantly again.

    Yes – and the campaign’s own website: http://www.savedmonton.com/about-our-campaigns.html

    – is great because they invite others to use their material.
    So I just emailed the NUS (of course they probably already know about this, but why not, just in case?) to ask if they’d consider encouraging students unions and unis in the UK to look at using the same campaign. This campaign SHOULD BE EVERYWHERE. And if it already is somewhere, then they should run it AGAIN.

    This is only the second time I can remember ever seeing anti-rape campaign material targeted at the potential perpetrator rather than the potential victim. No victim-blaming. Almost unheard-of.

  32. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

    rq

    I like the look of your plans. I’m having trouble with the units on the existing plan, are those in meters? If so your ground floor a fair bit bigger than our whole house. Ours will be a single story 9.6 x 10.6 meters. It’s tiny. Every contractor who’s worked on the slab has asked “Is this the shed?” and on being informed that it is in fact the house, they then say “Oh, it’s two stories.” No, no it’s not.

    Mrs. Fishy has been worrying about this and so have I. Or I did until I watched a doco on India, specifically the working poor in India. One person who had been sleeping in parks finds a flat for rent. The thing appeared slightly larger than our master bedroom. It’s prime decoration was mouldy walls and the previous tenants rubbish, yet you can see the guy trying not to show his excitement at maybe getting this space.

    After the haggling was done and his new landlord leaves he turns to his friend and starts exclaiming how great it is: “We can put a couch here.”, “We can cook here.”, “Just a quick clean and it’ll be great.” and so on. They cut to another scene after he looks around in satisfaction and says “We could have five, maybe six people in here.”

    I’ve always answered the questions about how I find Canada as compared to Australia with snark and humour. But if I’m pushed into answering seriously I say that no matter where you go there are people, good, bad and indifferent. No matter where you go your needs are going to be pretty much the same, employment, food, shelter and on up the hierarchy of needs.

    Unless I lived in one of the desperate parts of the world where a struggle to survive is the daily lot, or I’m separated from those who love me and whom I love in turn, with the resources I have it should be possible to live a healthy, happy life just about anywhere. If I’m not happy, it’s pretty damn likely that the source of that is internal. But I sometimes forget that.

    I am lucky.

    I am so fucking lucky that most of the time I’m blind to it.

    And then one day I’m lounging in my lounge room, watching the biggest TV I’ve ever owned, digesting a fantastically yummy meal made of fresh, varied ingredients as my wife tapped away at our computer in the kitchen and my healthy child slept soundly in her own room, and then suddenly my evening’s free entertainment smacked me right between the eyes with the reality of my situation.

    A man was filled with joy before my eyes, and the source of his joy just seconds before had made me cringe.

    That night I walked over to the new slab and stood in the centre, feeling the day’s heat rise off it around me. I visualised the rooms as they will be so very soon. And a quiet, joyful voice in my head told me in a musical accent that over there five, maybe six people could live and be happy, and over there another five, and over there another six, and over there…..

    And in that quiet Australian night, under more stars than this big city North American kid ever dreamed of, the world shifted, just slightly, towards the better.

  33. says

    I have to confess I found the Austin Powers movies pretty funny.

    Correction: I found them in part very funny. The satire on genre stuff and satire on form stuff is generally pretty funny, pretty sharp. A lot of the rest was just ho hum.

    But: Basil Exposition, we already know that? That’s funny. Mustafa having to answer any question you ask three times with sufficient vehemence? Strangely clever. Mustafa breaking up the melodramatic tableau of presumed horror after his typically cold-blooded and grisly Evil Villian™ brand dispatching with ‘Actually… I’m alive but just horribly burned’? Pretty much brilliant…

    That last gag, that one was really good. I want someone to make an original series Star Trek, too, in which, after Mr. Random Red Shirt is gruesomely murdered to ratchet up tension at the beginning of the episode, you hear him from off-camera saying: ‘Yeah, okay… I was wearing the red shirt. What the hell was I thinking? Everyone fucking warned me… Anyway… I’m not dead. Geez, but that stung, tho’… Bactine? Does any of you bastards not wearing red have some Bactine?’

    Powers expecting the toothpaste and floss to be some diabolically clever 60s-esque spy gadget and just being told ‘Umm… No… It’s just that dental hygiene’s made some advances since you were frozen’? That’s just annoyingly stupid… Until he winds up actually using the toothpaste, several scenes later, on a typically klutzy disposable genre guard. And Dr. Evil telling his son, ‘No, kid, you don’t get it… I have to leave them in an easily escapable situation and just assume everything goes to plan’? The Bond films deserve this. They really do.

    The ongoing visual gag with the near nudity, that’s also pretty good, if you know the films of the time and the general shooting cliché they’re lampooning, though I’d say they overuse it. And there’s some cute throwaway reference stuff I think works. ‘They’re all after me Lucky Charms’ is funny just for the absurd setup that gets you there.

    That ‘overused’ thing, I think that’s the real problem. And see also athyco’s observation. They were funny the first time, and then they became chestnuts. It’s the same thing that happened to Airplane! and Top Secret! and most of Monty Python. It was funny until idiots started memorizing it and busting it out on every damned occasion and you started wanting to hit them. Tho’ the makers themselves are hardly innocent either… insofar as I think they really didn’t need to make three of the Austin Powers things. Quitting at two would have been quitting while they were ahead. But then, they already paid for this sin at the box office, if I recall correctly.

  34. rq says

    FossilFishy
    Sometimes I feel ashamed of being happy for what I have and for wanting what I do want. What you wrote is exactly right – and I’ve been realizing it more and more, lately – I am absurdly lucky, and sometimes I forget. Sometimes I forget that, while on an absolute scale, we are rather low, but, on a relative scale (this country, this time), we are able to afford a house, dammit, which is a hell of a lot more than most people around us. Sometimes I forget that, while we have three rooms and three loud children, we have three rooms, while around us, we have families of more members trying to live in even smaller spaces. In the past year, we have gone from just-beyond scrambling to having a house, in the past two – from having no car and a lot of debt, to having a house and no debt (well, soon-to-have-debt, but…). I am absurdly lucky, and sometimes I forget. Yes. Thank you for writing the above.

    And yes, it’s in metres. It’s a large house. And it’s being sold for half its market value, which is the only way we can afford it (see: current owners wanting to GTHOOTC).
    It’s wood-heated, though, which is why we’re pretty sure the heating costs won’t run us under. I hope.

    I’m glad your house is moving forward, too. Hooray for a roof over the head, of any size, of any shape. And for the happiness inside.

  35. rq says

    AJ Milne
    I agree that many of the jokes (in the beginning) and gags (in the beginning) had humour, but you hit it – overuse. And also, to my mind, sometimes poor presentation, in combination with some actually tasteless jokes (Fat Bastard?) did not Austin Powers appealing make to me. :)

  36. rq says

    PS Our current apartment is 63sq.m., so we’re more than doubling our area (there’s a second floor) but cutting expenses… Weird, I know, but this whole paying for other people’s water use and water heating due to the fact of them having inaccurate and/or sabotaged water meters is annoying. Also the absurd price of heating in these apartment buildings, which is split evenly and cannot be calibrated due to the unified system.

  37. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    Lard help me, I have discovered another Historical British Show™and I cannot get enough of of it: Call the Midwife. It is quite entertaining, even if credulity-straining.

    —–

    JAL, I, uh, have not received an email? Try again plz?

    —-

    Others: I really hate to be a nag, but I could use a bit more help covering the “Keep Dalilama’s Lights On Fund.” Pweeze?

  38. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Ok. Tom Cruise annoys me as much as anyone, but Oblivion looks pretty sweet. Don’t know anything about the Graphic Novel, but the movie looks like it could be good.

  39. says

    rq/#546

    Yeah re Fat Bastard. And past the actual nastiness of stuff like that, there’s the toilet humour I just wasn’t getting at all funny.

    And y’know, seriously, I don’t think I ever have. My little guy went through this strange ‘saying poo is somehow funny all on its own’ thing a little while ago… Mercifully he seems mostly out of it, now… And through the whole thing I was just: this is like null reaction. It’s mildly annoying to me you’re wasting my time with this; that’s pretty much it. Yes, yes, I know you’re six, and maybe this is a thing just sometimes happens when you’re six, but why is it even funny? I’m not even offended, actually; I just don’t even get it… And I think I vaguely recall being six and having other six year olds doing this and my not getting it then either…

    I actually wonder why, a bit, come to think of it. Come to think of it, a very similar situation I can remember: I had a Québecois friend who used to think it would be funny to hassle his Anglo friend about his loyalty to the Queen or something (I think this was supposed to be the basis of the gags… Honestly, again, when you’re in that total null reaction space, sometimes it’s hard even to work out), and trying to explain to him, listen, the thing is, okay, but I’m really not particularly loyal to any queen. Off the old bat, for all I care; I’d really be pretty okay with that; she and her whole inbred, noisy lot are a sideshow at best and an annoying anachronism with overtones of an ugly old authoritarianism I wouldn’t miss in the least at worst…

    Maybe the poo stuff is the same problem. It’s like it’s supposed to be breaking some taboo, but it’s really not that much of a taboo anymore. Yes, we all do excrete smelly things; we’ve noticed. We’re kinda over this, this being 2013, now. You think maybe you’re being shocking? You’re going to have work at little harder for shocking, in the current context, I’m afraid. Like, say, have you got anything that plays with the ‘logic’ of extraordinary rendition? For that, maybe I could give you some kind of meaningful appraisal.

  40. rq says

    Esteleth
    I have an envelope via snail-mail bookmarked for you, to be sent off hopefully by next week (sorry for delays). We’ve just had some immediate pressing distractions in the past week and a bit that sent my regular scheduling awry.

    AJ Milne
    Well, it does seem to be humour aimed at that particular age-group (eldest – 5 y.o. – is currently enjoying saying ‘poo’ as well). But it’s not particularly funny. It’s just… an exploration of all kinds of things, what he can/cannot say, testing reactions, societal pressures, etc. And yeah, I don’t get it either – why it is funny. I think it’s the risk, since he’s probably not allowed to say it in kindergarten, or gets a heated reaction to it (or his friends do). So he tries it at home to no effect at all… The less reaction, the shorter this phase will last, I suppose! But – To put that into a movie as a huge giant joke, well… Blase, at best.
    I think it’s hard to see the funny in a joke if you have no investment (emotional or otherwise) in the joke’s premise on its own. I suppose if you think poo is gross and something worth a giggle in everyday life, Fat Bastard might make you laugh a lot in the Austin Powers context. *shrug* Don’t plan on watching the movies anytime soon, don’t particularly care!

  41. Pteryxx says

    via BB again:

    African sf anthology —

    Liam sez, “On the tail of the CC-licensed Muslim SF Anthology: there’s a recently-released collection of African SF stories, called Afro SF. It’s a collection of stuff written by folks in and around the African continent, so there’s a fairly wide spread of content and focus. It’s pretty new, and pretty neat, although it isn’t CC and it is, at present, only available as a slightly-pricey e-book. Still, SF, some of it quite good (writers like Sarah Lotz, Biram Mboob) marginal voices, and all.”

    http://boingboing.net/2013/01/07/african-sf-anthology.html

    Ebook available here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00AEUH112/downandoutint-20

  42. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    *hee hoo hee hoo hee hoo*
    I have been rushing to catch up with you folks for days now, and I’ve finally arrived! Breathless, but I’m here. Forgive the omni-comment, some of my responses of from comments long ago:

    Ing

    “Tom Paris can do every job on the ship while steering it with his dick”

    I watched a lot of Trek with my dad as a kid. (Not that my dad was a kid…you get it). This made me guffaw.

    rq

    Looks like we have a house*.

    HOORAY!!!!

    :D

    This means we will be able to host travellers and guests. *hint* ;) Champagne?

    Champagne indeed! *goes to da googol to search transnational flights, comes away disappointed*

    Matt Penfold

    If you are going to mix champagne with anything, I don’t think you can beat adding a little fruit puree to a glass and topping up with champagne. The classic is white peaches, but I have had a version made with raspberry puree that was totally delicious.

    *drool* Raspberries are one of my favorite things.

    Tony

    Champagne+Creme de Menthe

    …actually made my nose wrinkle up a bit just thinking about it.
    All your other concoctions sound lovely though. I especially love sparkling juice : )

    Beatrice

    Then I got a call from one of the banks I applied to for training. Since I already am in training, I don’t know whether it’s possible to transfer (complicated rules), and I wasn’t even chosen yet just one of the candidates who passed the first circle.
    Got annoyed because working in a bank would be much better for my resume, and if they decided to take me on later it would be much better than staying where I am now (government, IT).

    Best of luck, I hope it works out for you.

    feralboy
    So sorry about your health troubles. Hope it’s better soon.

    Caine
    Yikes! I broke both wrists when I was 11. Hope yours gives you some relief soon.
    Glad Vasco is home. Poor little guy

    JAL
    So glad you are making moves towards dental intervention. Fingers crossed you can get it all taken care of asap.
    FossilFishy
    Wow. That’s such crap. Kudos to you and Mrs. Fishy for persevering.

    athyco

    Today was a good day. My son had a seizure six months and one day ago, and this morning his neurologist did the final EEG and faxed to the state his clearance to drive. Woooohoooooo, I’m freeeeee from chauffeur-itude!

    Awesome!

    rq

    Weird, I know, but this whole paying for other people’s water use and water heating due to the fact of them having inaccurate and/or sabotaged water meters is annoying.

    I am still trying to figure out a delicate way to determine if I’m paying my downstairs neighbor’s utilities along with my own…

    `-`-`-`-`-`

    Last week the heat went out on the old junker and it keeps overheating (Because of course it has to contradict itself). So it’s finally the kick in the ass I need to get up the nerve to apply for a car loan. Wish me luck!

  43. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    And as I’m perusing car listings on craigslist, of *course* I find a 1980 Porsche in my pricerange. :D

  44. rq says

    Portia
    If the champagne does not quench your thirst, I can get you a really expensive glass of tap-water. ;)
    Good luck with the car loan! Will it be anything like this? (The car, I mean.) ;)
    Also you have about 3 – 5 years for that transatlantic flight; there’s no use coming to visit until we have the guestroom all fixed up! :)

    +++

    Also, I realize I’ve been selfish and have forgotten to wish speedy health recoveries to all those ill or in pain!!! So, I now do so!

  45. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    rq
    Re: Porsche…*swoon* If only! That’s a shiny pretty thingy :)

    Thanks for the well wishes. Somehow I’m inordinately nervous about such a relatively small loan about (I’m shooting for around $3000 USD).

    And I’ll start saving for the flight now ;)

  46. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Thanks rq. You always know just what to say : ) How’s your day going? Have you bitten your nails down to the quick yet?

  47. Ogvorbis: failure says

    Re: Porsche…*swoon* If only! That’s a shiny pretty thingy :)

    Don’t do it. Don’t do it. A thirty year old car, meant to be driven hard, will most likely be a huge money suck.

  48. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Og,

    Oh, no, I have no desire for the one I saw. I meant the one rq linked to. I am looking more at early aughts Aleros right now.

  49. rq says

    Portia
    No, not yet! But things have been more or less settled (see: my post to FossilFishy above), so now it’s just anticipating the actual signing of everything and settling of documentation (I think Friday for some signage (more champagne) and then the week after for other finalization (even more champagne!)). And then figuring out how to move all this stuff.
    The taxes have been shelved while all of that finishes up, but that’s looking good, too. As long as I register a company in the Husband’s name. :P

  50. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    So. Um.

    Reading the “Matt Dillahunty” thread. Does jaksul ever get a clue?!

    My brain hurts.

  51. Matt Penfold says

    Don’t do it. Don’t do it. A thirty year old car, meant to be driven hard, will most likely be a huge money suck.

    And parts for Porches (and other top-end cars) do not come cheap. I know someone who has just been quoted over £3000 to replace the engine management computer in their BMW. The labour will only be a couple of hours, it is the part itself that is costing so much.

  52. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Ok, found a reasonably priced Alero at a nearby dealership and applied for financing. Gonna swig some ginger ale since I have too much work to do to drink this early.

  53. Beatrice says

    Random:

    athyco,
    Yay for your son’s good health… and the two of you not being forced to spend time in a car together every day ;)

  54. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Last week the heat went out on the old junker and it keeps overheating (Because of course it has to contradict itself).

    That makes perfect sense, actually – the climate control heater uses heat from the engine to warm the air (though some cars, like mine, seem to have a supplementary electric heater). It sounds like a generalized problem with the cooling system – the heat isn’t getting efficiently from the engine to where it would be dissipated, including to the air flowing to the interior.

  55. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Ah, thanks for the explanation. I have a very generalized understanding of engines. SO spent three days last winter replacing the thermostat. He thinks it may have gone out again. He says it’s time for a new car if that’s the case, ha. Not that it hasn’t been time for a “new” car for a long time.

  56. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Ogvorbis:
    I do not think you are a failure. The addition to your nym is simply not true. You are a caring, thoughtful, insightful human being and it pains me to see you so down on yourself.

  57. Beatrice says

    rq,

    I haven’t seen The Hobbit yet, but your review was interesting. I see some of my fears were proven correct. Meh, I’ll probably watch it eventually, but not in the cinema.

  58. Ogvorbis: failure says

    I do not think you are a failure. The addition to your nym is simply not true. You are a caring, thoughtful, insightful human being and it pains me to see you so down on yourself.

    Just the way I feel. I have failed at being a human being so many times in the past that it makes it hard to be one now.

  59. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Speaking of cars, I recently got a new battery and ever since, my car sputters and darn nearly shuts off when I come to a full stop. So annoying and bc I am broke, I cannot do anything about it.

  60. numenaster says

    New topic! I just watched a video from 60 Minutes that was mostly about the Steve Kelly, the founder of Ideo, the design house that Steve Jobs used for a lot of Apple’s most influential products. The skeptical part is this: Jobs and Kelly were good friends, and Kelly came down with cancer while Jobs was being treated for his own. And Kelly said that as soon as he was diagnosed, Jobs called him to say don’t try any alternative medicine or herbs, go directly to western medicine. The interviewer asked why Kelly thought Jobs said that, and Kelly said Jobs thought he had made a mistake taking that route with his own treatment.

    It’s at 8:45 in the video, here: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50138327

  61. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Ogvorbis:
    Even if I were to accept that you have failed multiple times in the past, those failures are not the sum total of who you are. They are a part, and they shape you, but the people around you-your family and friends-value you as a person. Do not let the failures of your past define who you are. Especially when you give no equal time to your successes. For instance, I have great respect for you. I have read your comments about how much you have changed…how you have grown. You recognized your privilege and the fact that you have subconscious biases. That you saw this within you and work every day to overcome those tendencies…that you speak up for the downtrodden…that you give voice to those who cannot…that you see the value of skepticism, science, logic and reason–
    There is no doubt what a good person you are.

  62. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Dating related-sorta-question-
    Over the years, I have come across many profiles where people describe themselves as “down to earth”. I was talking with my roomie, E, the other day about this. What does “down to earth” actually mean? If you aren’t down to earth, what are you?
    Thoughts?

  63. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Ok can someone help me troubleshoot my outrage? Am I just being a knee jerk ideologue or is this

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=wisdom-from-psychopaths

    As infuriatingly bullshit as I think?

    I’m tempted to think so since we’re literally sliding into fiction http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=dexter-talks-psychopath-stress-mana-13-01-08

    I hate HATE HATE Dexter as a show because of the “Romantic Sociopath” trope.

  64. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    What does “down to earth” actually mean? If you aren’t down to earth, what are you?

    It means practical. Thought at this point over exposure of it has probably rendered it a nonsense term

  65. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Tony: maybe people are trying to convey that they aren’t flakey? Or maybe that they are dependable? I’m not sure either, that’s a good question though. I haven’t thought about it before.

  66. Matt Penfold says

    Over the years, I have come across many profiles where people describe themselves as “down to earth”. I was talking with my roomie, E, the other day about this. What does “down to earth” actually mean? If you aren’t down to earth, what are you?
    Thoughts?

    I’ve always thought of it as being the opposite of pretentious. But given no one is going to describe themselves as pretentious (even if they are), it is a description of a person better given by someone who knows the person, and not the person themselves. Used to describe yourself it is pretty useless.

  67. Ogvorbis: failure says

    Used to describe yourself it is pretty useless.

    Agreed. For someone to describe him- or herself as ‘down to earth’ comes across as pretentious. Sort of self defeating.

  68. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    Esteleth,

    Could you repost paypal account details? Small contribution will be forthcoming.

  69. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    Side rant: I ordered something from Amazon.

    They said it would be delivered on the 7th of January (i.e., yesterday). It did not arrive. So I went into the package-tracking page, and looked up my package.

    Here is what it says: Expected date of delivery: January 7, 2013.
    Then, below that, it says that as of right now (i.e. the 8th) it is on a delivery truck in my city.

    Erm. Quantum packages?

  70. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    Nick, the PayPal is through my nym at the google mail service.

    (and thank you!)

  71. Dhorvath, OM says

    Down to earth, as opposed to a dreamer with an eye on the sky or a snoot with their nose raised high. Oddly, most people think of themselves as down to earth regardless of how others might describe them, rendering the descripion basically meaningless.

  72. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Matt @582:
    Yes!
    That is exactly what I was thinking.

  73. chigau (無味ない) says

    Ing
    The SO is currently reading The Wisdom of Psychopaths.
    He hasn’t condemned it, yet.
    I’ll read it soon and offer an opinion.

  74. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @Chigau

    From my take it seems like a lot of controversy baiting and humpty dumptying of words to make an argument fit the headline catching EXXXTREME psychology.

  75. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    I also strongly disagree with the premise that non-violent psychopaths are ‘beneficial’. That behavior in government and business, even if not being illegal is horrendously harmful and unethical.

  76. rq says

    Tony
    It means sensible, practical, no-nonsense, not prone to change, steady, reliable. At least, from my huge phase in horoscopology back in the late 90s, that’s what it meant back then. It’s a catch-all for ‘I am not a flake’ (as Ing mentioned) and ‘You can trust me because I’m not weird’. Something like that.

    Ogvorbis
    Is this the point where I say Stop that? You are not a failure. Exactly what Tony said at 577. The comments that I have read from you in other threads speak of someone exactly the opposite of how you seem to see yourself, and I am glad I have the chance to get to know (of) you here and elsewhere around FtB. *hugs* and have another bottle. Seriously, we have too much of the stuff.

    Beatrice
    I’m glad I was of service. The kids loved the movie, even though in parts I more or less decided we were mistaken in bringing them, because orcs, violence, and imcomprehensible adult-type archetypal story-lines with text. I was (still, vainly) hoping for a bunch of dwarves and a hobbit having an adventure. Ah well!

  77. Ogvorbis: failure says

    Erm. Quantum packages?

    I ordered a used copy of Gaining Ground: The Origin and Evolution of Tetrapods (Clack, 2012) through Amazon. On Monday, it was delivered. On Wednesday, I got an email saying it had been shipped.

  78. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Yeah, DtE is used by people so often to describe themselves, it has lost any meaning
    ****

    michaeld:
    I was inspired by how you sat through Thunderf00t’s videos, so I decided to click on the FtB ad for ‘shocking 2013 horoscopes’. I am waiting for the email response to my free reading. No, I don’t believe in astrology. I’m just doing this for shits n giggles (need to find out where THAT phrase comes from).

  79. Ogvorbis: failure says

    . . . exactly the opposite of how you seem to see yourself . . .

    I see myself as a failure who is really good at pretending to be a good person. Or I do right now. The dreams are really getting me down. If they keep up for 3 or 4 more nights, it is professional help time. When I get a little down, my past failures become so fucking huge that they kind of overpower who I pretend to be.

  80. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    !!!

    I know why the package is doing this!

    That package contains one of these!

    Ducks are quantum. Everyone knows that.

  81. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    Oggie, I am not being hyperbolic when I say that not only are you one of my favorite people, I see you as a very positive role model.

    You are a good person.

  82. Ogvorbis: failure says

    Esteleth:

    That is cute.

    Of course, I have only ever used bagged tea, so I have no use for it, but damn, that’s cute.

  83. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    It’s a catch-all for ‘I am not a flake’ (as Ing mentioned) and ‘You can trust me because I’m not weird’. Something like that.

    A very suspiciously specific denial ;)

    Ing: Most definitely not eating with chop sticks right now

  84. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    Unrelated: can this be accurately described as “chutzpah”? Or just “asshattedness” and “entitled shits”?

  85. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    I’d rather convey “You can trust me and I’m weird.” Just so there are no surprises.

  86. says

    @ Tony
    Awww people are sitting through stupidity because of me. ^.^

    @caine/beatrice I think that’s who it was it might be my bad memory sorry if I missed someone

    I liked the models posted here last night very good job.

    @Ogvorbis
    Tasty pastries, delicious beverages, cute animals and anything else that would make you feel better because you’re not a failure.

  87. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Gosh, my horoscope was so informative. It was spot on. She really knew me through my date of birth, sex, and name. /where my snark hat is?

  88. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Unrelated: can this be accurately described as “chutzpah”? Or just “asshattedness” and “entitled shits”?

    It can as of now accurately be described as a borked link

  89. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Oggie:
    That would be a negative.
    She spoke in such generalities, such that if I didn’t know better, I would think it was mass produced bulldoodoo that can apply to anyone.
    But I do know better. I am the sharpest crayon!

  90. Ogvorbis: Good at pretending? says

    I am the sharpest crayon!

    Last night (or the other night (not sure right now)) I said something really stupid and Boy informed me that I was not the sharpest knife blade in the chandelier. Wife then pointed out that I was also not the brightest bulb in the knife drawer. So as long as you are not the sharpest crayon behind the radiator, all is good.

  91. says

    AJ Milne

    Correction: I found them in part very funny. The satire on genre stuff and satire on form stuff is generally pretty funny, pretty sharp

    I pretty much agree with this regarding the first movie. There never should have been any more, though. That style of comedy has a really hard time sustaining sequels.
    Ogvorbis
    You kick ass, dude. Seriously, you rock.

    Hugs, congratulations, and sympathies all round, as appropriate.

  92. Ogvorbis: Good at pretending? says

    All:

    Thanks for the self-esteem boost. I needed it. Right now, my self-esteem has less worth than a Suzuki Esteem.

  93. dianne says

    Ogvorbis, describing you as a “failure” would mean setting the bar to call someone a “success” high. Unrealistically high. Not met by 99.9% of the population high.

  94. Matt Penfold says

    Joining in the Pharyngula echo chamber. Ogvorbis, you ain’t a failure. You come across as an intelligent, caring, compassionate person. And I am beginning to realise, such people are not a common as I would like. Plus you are my goto person if I ever have a question about railways!

  95. chigau (無味ない) says

    “sharpest knife blade in the chandelier”
    “brightest bulb in the knife drawer”
    Uummm, Oggie.
    There are a few things you and your family should know about household management.
    This sort of thing is the thin edge of the slippery slope.

  96. Ogvorbis: Good at pretending? says

    Esteleth:

    So AIG was effectively bankrupt (shareholders are screwed totally). The US Government bailed out the company and helped it to become profitable again (shareholders benefit). So the shareholders (and possibly AIG) are suing the US Government because the cost of bailing out the company meant there was less profit during the bailout? Colour me gobsmacked (whatever colour that is).

  97. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @Ogvorbis

    It’s that good psychopathic fearlessness that we should all learn!

  98. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    Yep!

    Because they can, I think. And because they smell an opportunity for a payday.

    (The fact that they would have almost certainly made less money had the company gone under seems to have eluded them).

  99. Matt Penfold says

    I suspect that the shareholders in questions are ones that bought shares once it became clear AIG might be in trouble and need a bail-out.

    The UK had a similar problem with the shareholders of Northern Rock (a UK bank than went bust, so the UK Government took it over to prevent the banking system from collapsing). Some, who gambled on the UK Government taking over Northern Rock sued the Government. Sad to say the Government settled rather than go to court.

  100. Ogvorbis: Good at pretending? says

    @Ogvorbis

    It’s that good psychopathic fearlessness that we should all learn!

    Failure to grok in fullness. Huh?

  101. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @Ogvorbis

    I was talking earlier about “Wisdom of the Psychopath” which Scientific America is pushing HEAVILY lately. It’s thesis is that Psychopath (it uses a really really use sense of the term) posses a natural fearlessness and lack of shame that leads them to success and that the criminal ones are just one aspect and there are many businessmen and heroes that are psychopaths and that we would all benefit from learning their methods of dealing with stress and motivation.

  102. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Shermer wrote a positive review of the book (a libertarian idealizing sociopathy!? NO!?), which intrinsically biases me against it now.

  103. rq says

    Portia
    I’m with you on that one (trust me and weird). On a slightly related note: At my and Husband’s wedding, my godmother (best ever!) got up to make a speech about me and my wonderfulness (don’t worry, that’s what weddings are for) and how I’ve always had a different way of thinking about things, and I see Husband’s family exchanging glances Yeah I knew she was weird!, until she got to the bit where my godmother said how she also knew that the Husband must have a different way of looking at things, otherwise he would not be becoming Husband-of-rq. Some wide eyes from Husband’s family – You mean to say he’s weird too? How dare you! Yeah, we had that kind of a wedding. ;)

    Tony
    *passes snark hat*
    Now tell me more about the truthiness of that horoscope!

    +++

    *brings out Ogvorbis-boosting pom-poms and does a little dance*
    Does that help, too? :)

  104. rq says

    Ing
    While it does sound like an interesting book to read for interest’s (not agreement’s) sake, Shermer endorsement is slightly off-putting – as is the idea that any kind of shameless action (by which I understand action that does not consider the consequences, even (especially?) those potentially affecting other people around you) being a positive sort of action. A reason for success, as it were. I do not believe that that is the way to go. While it might be true (ostensibly), I don’t think that it is a strategy that pays off in the long run.
    And I have a hard time believing that all those psychopathic businessmen and heroes deal with stress in emotionally healthy ways.
    I have no evidence to back up this opinion, which is why this is merely an opinion. :)

  105. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @rq

    My view as well.

    One critique of it I read brought up the quote “Do you ever feel sad? of course you’re human”

    Plus it’s my stance that doubt is good. Doubt should be the breaks we put on our ambition that makes us stop and try to think whether what we’re doing is a good idea.

  106. says

    Oh and I apologize for being the reason jacksul will not leave. I have now told him I’m not interested in an apology, however, given how he seems to translate my words (when he manages to see them), I doubt it will get through. We’ll see, I suppose.

    I did tell him Dawkins isn’t going about in tights and cape, maybe that will drive him away.

  107. Matt Penfold says

    I have heard the suggestion that criminal psychopaths and successful business people share similar psychological traits. It if is true is has always struck me as an argument for being even more wary of successful business people.

  108. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @Matt Penfold

    That author seems to make a similar argument, though he seems to think this is beneficial for the world rather than proof we live in Orwell’s “jackboot history” nightmare

  109. rq says

    Ing
    Doubt is what lets you look at your automatic reactions and gauge whether you’re actually doing things right. Doubt is a very valuable asset, if used the right way. If we all functioned according to our first impulses, well, I think the world would be a very sorry place. Like you said – the brakes on our ambition to see if what we’re doing is a good idea.

  110. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    It if is true is has always struck me as an argument for being even more wary of successful business people.

    Just based on observation and interaction with them, I advise caution. : p

    rq
    I love that wedding story! Good for your godmother. : ) Make ‘em squirm!

  111. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Good Friend has agreed to accompany me so I don’t buy a lemon this afternoon. Woohoo! (Yeah, I’m performing femininity: I don’t know anything about cars and am taking along a man to help out my widdle lady brain. But I like to think I know the limits of my own skill sets :)

  112. rq says

    Ing
    Seriously? Beneficial? A world of psychopaths? Because psychopathic businessmen will improve the rest of society by trickle-down effect?
    Or what?
    Blah. Libertarians. I raspberry them.

    Also probably why successful businessmen scare me. That’s a lot of entitlement in one ironed suit.

  113. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Headstrong drive without doubt also leads you towards bulldozing over people and ignoring better solutions that may arise as you work. Yes doubt can feel bad but if it’s over something like “will people die or be harmed?” we should have that. We should be MORE stressed over more important decisions…it’s the incentive to be careful. There are times we need quick and aggressive decision making, but TBH most of us in the developed world will not find ourselves in that many emergency situations.

  114. rq says

    Portia
    Better that than buying it yourself and later driving a horrible Thing of a car with everyone laughing at you for being such a girl and picking the wrong car. ;) Good luck!
    (Actually, I’d laugh at you for this if you knew everything about cars and still took a friend; then again, a second opinion, even for experts, is never a bad thing!)

  115. Matt Penfold says

    Just based on observation and interaction with them, I advise caution. : p(/blockquote>

    Well that is why I said EVEN more caution :)

  116. rq says

    Ing @633
    Perhaps we should cultivate a few libertarians on special libertarian farms, as a way of assuring people of quick, thoughtless action in case of emergency… Although for which emergency exactly, I have no idea…
    And here I thought thinking over important decisions was a good thing. That book seems to say that any extra thought on a topic is detrimental because success. But… Isn’t a skeptic supposed to think things through and not just rush through without judgment? And Shermer endorses this book?

  117. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    now to be fair the book is seemingly (IMHO) using a very very lose term of psychopath to include a wider set of characteristics than most of us would consider. And it does that for a lot of other terms (for example it argues that Sociopaths are MORE empathetic rather than less because they’re better at seeing subtle emotional cues).

    Now for most of us we wouldn’t consider that actually empathy as it’s missing the cruel concept of ‘giving a damn’ portion.

    I think there might be some good points in the book but to me it feels so much like controversy bait combined with the “heroic sociopath” trope that it feels like it’s working backwards to justify it’s premise and gleeful in the naughtiness of it all.

  118. Ogvorbis: Good at pretending? says

    Ing:

    Got it.,

    Portia:

    If you have a mechanic who is trusted, pay the extra your mechanic to take a look at it. Or an independent mechanic.

    Also, if the car ‘feels’ wrong, in other words, if if seems like a good deal but something you can’t quite put your finger on is a little off, don’t be afraid to walk away. The two times I have bought a car while overriding a ‘not right’ feeling, I have ended up putting far more into the car than it was worth in the first place. Even if you can’t verbalize what is wrong, don’t be afraid to just say, ‘I think I’ll keep shopping. Let me know if you get something else in that is in this price range.’

  119. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    That book seems to say that any extra thought on a topic is detrimental because success

    It’s not the extra thought, it’s the lack of shame. It lets you succeed by saying “damn the costs/risks!”

  120. Ogvorbis: Good at pretending? says

    Portia:

    The unsolicited advice comes from experience. I used to sell cars. And was good at it (but I hated doing it).

    Check on line (Kelly Bluebook has a free website) and find out what the car is actually worth retail. I routinely quoted prices 50% above actual retail value to customers so that when they talked me down to only 15% over retail value they felt like they had won.

  121. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Caine:
    No need for apologies. I think I am done trying to get through to Nice Guy.

    ****
    ” An Indiana hospital has fired eight employees, including at least three veteran nurses, after they refused mandatory flu shots, stirring up controversy over which should come first: employee rights or patient safety. The hospital imposed mandatory vaccines, responding to rising concerns about the spread of influenza.”

     

    http://news.yahoo.com/nurses-fired-refusing-flu-shot-224637902–abc-news-health.html

    I wonder how this will pan out in court. The right to religious belief vs the health of hospital patients.

  122. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Advice gratefully received, Ogvorbis.

    And I’m not just saying this out of gratitude, but I also think you are awesome.

  123. says

    Fucking libertarians are active or aspiring psychopaths/sociopaths… and the Randian variety explicitly so. Ick.

    Ignoring the human element in life might get you further, but only at the expense of other people. And if enough people do it, it eventually creates a toxic environment that is detrimental to everyone. Look at how many of the problems in the world really boil down to “if only a very few people were willing to settle for less than everything, there would be enough for everyone.”

  124. says

    Tony:

    The right to religious belief vs the health of hospital patients.

    Fuck religious belief. This is not like refusing to fill contraception scrips or refusing to do abortions on religious grounds (which are both fucking wrong anyway.) Exposing patients to influenza is a clear and present danger, the antithesis of what medical care is supposed to be about. If they aren’t willing to do their job, the hell with ‘em.

  125. Ogvorbis: Good at pretending? says

    Ignoring the human element in life might get you further, but only at the expense of other people.

    That is why I stopped selling cars and went into the Army (plan at that time was to work for State as an embassy code geek) as a step toward doing something more useful with my life than just grubbing after money.

  126. cicely (Distressing Unto Eagles) says

    athyco: Congrats on your freedom chauffeur-itude! And congrats to your son, as well.

    Is jacksul back, then? Do I want to go and see? Decisions, decisions….

    Portia: Good luck with the car loan.

    Ogvorbis: What Tony said.
    *hugs&kittens*

    Erm. Quantum packages?

    All tied up with String Theory!
    :D
    -

  127. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Ogvorbis: I had a friend direct me to a more accurate version of Kelly Blue Book once. I can’t remember the name now. Do you have any idea of another site of that type?

  128. says

    tony

    ” An Indiana hospital has fired eight employees, including at least three veteran nurses, after they refused mandatory flu shots, stirring up controversy over which should come first: employee rights or patient safety. The hospital imposed mandatory vaccines, responding to rising concerns about the spread of influenza.”

    Patient safety, of course. Why the hell is this even a matter for discussion? If your beliefs endanger others, they fucking lose! That’s it, no questions, no discussion, no nothing; if you want to be a nurse, you get every goddamn vaccination there is, an if you don’t, you can go find a different fucking profession.
    Joe(and others discussing the ‘benefits’ of sociopathy)

    Fucking libertarians are active or aspiring psychopaths/sociopaths… and the Randian variety explicitly so. Ick.

    Psychopathic behaviour is really good for getting your way and getting a whole bunch of shit for yourself. The idea that people doing this benefits society in some fashion is an article of libertarian faith, which they’ve been insisting is not just true but obviously true for decades now. They have yet to provide any evidence for it though.

  129. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Holy crap. KBB.com says that the dealership is offering this car for less than half its value.

  130. Pteryxx says

    nah, jacksul’s not back since pleading for an explanation a handful of hours ago. As usual I’ve been far too polite and patient with this latest one. I’m following Caine’s lead … I’m done unless he shows some serious daylight; it’s not worth annoying everyone else by encouraging him.

  131. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Part of the argument about the wisdom of sociopaths that bothers me is that it’s saying “well yes these people stomp over you…but if you were more like them you could reap the benefits to”, ignoring the obvious problem that no even if everyone was a sociopath there would still be the weakest sociopath who would get shafted.

  132. athyco says

    Yay for your son’s good health… and the two of you not being forced to spend time in a car together every day ;)

    Oh, we had good times, and some of his coworkers got rides–but there was some teasing because theirs were not from mom, ya know? And his girlfriend thanked me about a month ago. He had this habit of unilaterally hitting pause or stop on the car radio/CD player when he had something to say. Now he reaches out, hand poised over the appropriate button until he receives a nod. At the beginning, I almost despaired of breaking him of the self-centered mindset, but he’s no jacksul. *does happy chair dance*

    I see myself as a failure who is really good at pretending to be a good person. Or I do right now. The dreams are really getting me down. If they keep up for 3 or 4 more nights, it is professional help time. When I get a little down, my past failures become so fucking huge that they kind of overpower who I pretend to be.

    I’m a lurker just recently become active. Forgive my presumption. Once upon a time, Ogvorbis, I read “When will you know everything and never make any mistakes?” Doesn’t sound like much, but it put me on the floor sobbing–something I could not remember doing for years. It illuminated in my mind that not only at that moment would I have said “never,” but I would always before have said “never” while thinking “I *should* have known and I *shouldn’t* have made that mistake!” followed by “Everyone would say the same if they knew!”

    No, they wouldn’t. You are not pretending to be. My thoughts are bent toward your success in banishing the dreams.

  133. Ogvorbis: Good at pretending? says

    Portia:

    edmunds.com seems to be right on. I just ran through four vehicles that I have a pretty good grasp of — and it seems accurate. Plus it give approximate trade in and retail values. Just make sure you click for used, rather than new. I’ve used edmunds in the past and it was within $500 every time.

  134. Ogvorbis: Good at pretending? says

    There is also a vehicle history report available (I assume for a price). Which is always good to have.

    Keep in mind though that if a repair was done through a smaller, non-chain shop, it may not show up on a vehicle history report (such as CarFaxx).

  135. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    I think that’s exactly the one, thanks Og. (So much for useless knowledge :D )

    It’s a bit lower than KBB, but looks like either way I’ll be getting a deal if this car isn’t a total piece of crap. And if it’s only partly a piece of crap, it’ll be a step up for me!

  136. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Which religion doesn’t allow flu vaccinations?
    __
    I totally agree that the right to life that everyone in a hospital setting has, most especially those for whom the flu could be lethal, trumps any religious beliefs.

  137. Ogvorbis: Good at pretending? says

    Holy crap. KBB.com says that the dealership is offering this car for less than half its value.

    Be suspicious (not accusitive suspicious, but suspicious). If you feel comfortable with the sales person, ask about that. “Why is your asking price half of KBB?”

    Also, did you check for options, mileage and condition when you were at KBB?

  138. cicely (Distressing Unto Eagles) says

    I have heard the suggestion that criminal psychopaths and successful business people share similar psychological traits. It if is true is has always struck me as an argument for being even more wary of successful business people.

    This.
    -

  139. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Yes, I filled in those options on both websites. KBB “assumes” excellent condition if you saying you’re buying from a dealer. Which seems weird. That’s a great idea, to just ask why it’s going for so far under “value.” (What does value mean but what someone will pay?) I’m hoping that it’s just been on the lot for a while, and that’s why it’s lowered. Thanks so much for all your input, Og.

  140. Ogvorbis: Good at pretending? says

    Once upon a time, Ogvorbis, I read “When will you know everything and never make any mistakes?”

    Mistakes I can handle. That’s normal. Its my failure, in the past, to be an actual human being that I have a problem with. (Yes, I know that I was young. Yes, I know that I was coerced. Yes, I understand my bodies pleasurable betrayal. And yes, I still think I failed at humanity.) But I am trying to be human. Or at least pretend I am.

  141. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    *hugs* I’ll repeat again that I think you’re great, just for good measure. I’m willing to keep telling you things your brain knows til your lizard brain stops shouting it down.

  142. says

    Ing

    Part of the argument about the wisdom of sociopaths that bothers me is that it’s saying “well yes these people stomp over you…but if you were more like them you could reap the benefits to”, ignoring the obvious problem that no even if everyone was a sociopath there would still be the weakest sociopath who would get shafted.

    It’s more than that. The ways that sociopaths get ahead rely on taking advantage of the empathy of non-sociopaths. If everyone were a sociopath, it wouldn’t work anymore, because they’d all be expecting you to try to screw you over, and be trying to do it to you first, which rapidly renders cooperation impossible, and everything dissolves into an orgy of (literal) backstabbing. You can’t have a society of sociopaths; they simply can’t sustain it.

  143. Ogvorbis: Good at pretending? says

    I’m hoping that it’s just been on the lot for a while, and that’s why it’s lowered.

    That is a very real possibility. And if that is the answer, go for it (if it ‘feels’ good (and I wish I could come up with a better way of explaining that (talking about ‘feel’ just sounds so wooist))).

    Thanks so much for all your input, Og.

    I just had a (microscopic) epiphany. I will go out of my way to help people when I can (helping people makes me feel good!). Maybe that is my way of shouting down my loud, annoying, negative lizard brain?

  144. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    I’m pretty good at trusting my “gut”, whatever that is. It does sound funny because there’s no evidence to back it up all the time, but if you’re losing nothing and hurting no one by trusting it, then it can be really helpful.

    I like your theory. Helping other people when I can makes me feel good too. That happy feeling you get could be a great way of counteracting the emotional beating-up you give yourself. But, I should note, your worth does not fully depend on what you can do for other people. It’s also in your humor, your empathy, and your strong sense of right and wrong.

  145. Beatrice says

    Ogvorbis,

    Its my failure, in the past, to be an actual human being that I have a problem with.

    Really horrible people appear in comments on Pharyngula every day. And we don’t dehumanize them. I’m pretty sure you expressed dislike of dehumanizing assholes, no matter what kind of vile hateful bigotry they write.

    Please, don’t dehumanize yourself. You are worth thousands of those assholes I mention above. Even if you weren’t I still wouldn’t want to read you call yourself names like that. You are human.. You reacted as a human boy confronted with horrible abuse. You are now reacting as a human man who lived through horrible abuse and is now trying to live with the memories, dreams and traumas. But thinking you fail(ed) as a human being has to go. I believe a lot of us sometimes think we fail as humans for far more benign reasons than you, but I’m afraid you are just hurting yourself further with this. So we’ll all just have to keep repeating to you that you are human and not only that, you are a great person.

    Listen to the Horde. We tell The Truth.

  146. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Oggie:
    Still disagree with the nym change. You want to see a failure as a human being? Go look in the slymepit. Not the mirror.
    And nope, you aren’t pretending either. You are self aware, no? You can feel pain, no? You have all the qualities of personhood. So you are a human. You are a person. The empathy you show, the live you show, the capacity to recognize when you have done wrong and work to not make that mistake again, your ability to accept your less desirable traits, all the while striving to be bettdr, with each passing day–
    I say again, you are a good person.

  147. Ogvorbis: Good at pretending? says

    But thinking you fail(ed) as a human being has to go.

    But I enjoyed hurting someone else. That is the big stumbling block for me forgiving me.

  148. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    But you know, in reality, that you did not enjoy it. You know cognitively that your body betrayed you, and that you now feel guilt for it. Coping takes many forms, often unpleasant ones. You are not to blame for surviving a horrific experience.
    You are not to blame for surviving a horrific experience.
    You are not to blame for surviving a horrific experience.
    You are not to blame for surviving a horrific experience.

  149. Beatrice says

    Ogvorbis,

    You were a child who has been abused, coerced and forced into acting as a proxy for the real abuser. He was acting through you so that he could simultaneously hurt both you and that girl. It’s possible that making you feel guilty and thus less likely to report was also something your rapist considered when forcing you on that girl. Manipulation is part of the abuse.

    You already acknowledged that your body’s reactions were not something you could help, but I wish you really believed that.
    I could swear someone here linked to a page about men and women who orgasm during rape and how that just can’t be helped and it doesn’t make them any less unwilling and raped, but I don’t have it bookmarked (or just can’t find it in the mess that are my bookmarks).

  150. says

    Ogvorbis:

    But I enjoyed hurting someone else.

    Yes, you did. That would not have happened if it weren’t for being hurt yourself, first, and finding yourself in a position of trying to cope with the trauma. What you did is not at all unusual, Og. It’s a fairly typical response and action.

    That is the big stumbling block for me forgiving me.

    I know it seems an immense obstacle. However, you stopped, didn’t you? You figured it out. As you said to me, you got the shit end of the stick. You realize that, so I think you can forgive yourself. Not easy, however, it can be done. I know, I had to do it myself.

  151. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    I’m sorry if I said something wrong, Ogvorbis.

    Anklehugs?

  152. Ogvorbis: Good at pretending? says

    Beatrice:

    I figured out the body betrayal about six or eight months ago. And, thinking about this now, I think that a possible reason I enjoyed abusing her was that I was not being abused. In a world of pain, absence of pain could be considered pleasure. That would certainly explain my, well, not eagerness, but something close. Damn. This is a day for looking at things from a different angle. Thanks.

  153. rq says

    Ogvorbis
    deriving pleasure =/= enjoying
    And isn’t failure a collection of mistakes? Which means – if every discrete part of that failure would be ok to deal with, how is the collection thereof somehow exempt from dealing with?
    And everything Beatrice said (which is why Beatrice is on my list of Horde Heroes).
    And if helping others is the way to kick yourself out of feeling worthless, go! But remember that you have worth besides that of helping others, that you yourself have a value, especially in those helpful little nuggets of information that may at times seem useless… But could prove valuable at some point in time.
    And what Portia said:

    You are not to blame for surviving a horrific experience.
    You are not to blame for surviving a horrific experience.
    You are not to blame for surviving a horrific experience.

    And then what Tony said.
    Yeah, I’m just jumping on the bandwagon right now.

    Improbable Joe
    re: libertarians as sociopaths
    Yes. That is all.

  154. Ogvorbis says

    Portia:

    No. No, no, no.

    I never know when and where triggers will come from. The thing is, when I do get triggered, it usually means things will be all whahoonie-shaped for a week or two and then when I realize that particular chunk of depression has passed, I’ve actually advanced things in my brain.

    I never thought that my willingness to abuse could be a way to avoid pain. Oh, shit, I am so sorry, but what choice did I really have? I didn’t do it willingly! and I never did it willingly! Oh, thank you all!

  155. Beatrice says

    Ogvorbis,

    And, thinking about this now, I think that a possible reason I enjoyed abusing her was that I was not being abused. In a world of pain, absence of pain could be considered pleasure.

    That makes a lot of sense.

    If my fumbling attempts at help end up being more hurtful than helpful, just tell me to shut up.
    (Or Caine or someone else who knows what they are talking about when it comes to topics like this should tell me to shut up)

  156. says

    Ogvorbis:

    Oh, shit, I am so sorry, but what choice did I really have? I didn’t do it willingly! and I never did it willingly! Oh, thank you all!

    You did not have a choice. You were not willing. You are a good person who had someone do terrible things to them. We love you, Og.

  157. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    I’m glad for you that you feel like you’re making progress making sense of things. Very very glad. Does that usually mean the nightmares let up for a while?

  158. rq says

    Ogvorbis
    Perhaps you could reclassify ‘enjoyed abusing her’ as ‘felt relieved I was not being abused’?
    Anyway I’m here good for some hugs and scotch, but I’ll watch the rest of this moment from the sidelines.

    Oh and Tony I don’t know how the Jehovah’s Witnesses are about vaccines, but I know they don’t allow vaccinations. And Muslims during Ramadan won’t get vaccinated (at least, not while the sun is up! :P).

  159. says

    Beatrice:

    (Or Caine or someone else who knows what they are talking about when it comes to topics like this should tell me to shut up)

    There is no need for you to shut up, you’re doing fine. You do need to stop this shit, though. NOW. You are a good person who deal with others just fine. You are compassionate and empathetic and there is nothing at all wrong with how you express yourself. We love you too.

  160. opposablethumbs says

    What many above have said, Ogvorbis. You were coerced as a child into doing something horrible – and the key word there is coerced. As a child, by a physically and psychologically powerful adult. You are not a failure at all or a horrible person now, in fact I think you’re a hell of a lot better person than most and I’d rather have you around than any number of people I’ve met (not to mention some I’m related to) (still less to mention people like the denizens of the slymepit; seriously, that’s what I call a failure at being human – slymepitters or Donald Trump; people who knowingly and willingly, as relatively powerful adults, set out to harm others).
    .
    Hey, FossilFishy! Great news on the house – and rq great house news also! (eh, those dimensions you mentioned for three Fishies? Slightly smaller here, four of us, and no wide open spaces either – inner city – and yes to everything you said about being lucky. Sure I’d love more space, but I know we are incredibly lucky! :-) )

  161. Ogvorbis says

    You did not have a choice. You were not willing.

    I did have a choice, but that choice was a magicians choice — either way I lost. I could hurt or be hurt. I took the choice that preserved me. So I had a choice and it was a choice between two horrible things.

    I’m in tears right now but i”m smiling. This actually makes sense.

    Does that usually mean the nightmares let up for a while?

    It does. Usually, the nightmares have been flashes of things not remembered. Triggers with flashbacks of memory in the day, nightmares at night, as the memories escape whatever hole I had put them in for self-preservation. The latest thing I remember was another man who would come up from Flagstaff. I wasn’t his favourite, so it didn’t affect me as much, but he was still someone I had forgotten. The dreams usually fade after a week or two. Until the next memory wants to surface.

    I think I’m in good shape right now. That voice in the back of my head is really, really quiet. I’m sure it’ll be back, but it’s getting easier and easier to ignore.

  162. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    That voice in the back of my head is really, really quiet. I’m sure it’ll be back, but it’s getting easier and easier to ignore.

    Wonderful, wonderful news. I’m so glad.

  163. rq says

    Ogvorbis
    Magician’s choice is not a real choice for anyone not a magician, which is, like, all of us.
    I love you, too.

    And I love you, too, Beatrice.
    And like everyone else here.

    Thanks, opposablethumbs. :) Champagne? Or did you get your share yesterday? ;)

  164. says

    ogvorbis

    I never thought that my willingness to abuse could be a way to avoid pain. Oh, shit, I am so sorry, but what choice did I really have? I didn’t do it willingly! and I never did it willingly!

    Yup. That’s what folks have been trying to tell you here. I came here to add my voice to theirs. This is one of the really ugly things about the whole meme of ‘free will’ as it exists now. People get convinced that they should have simply exercised their ‘free will’ in a situation where none of the choices were good to somehow make up a new choice. You were trapped in a place where there were no good choices to make, only a choice between horrors, and maybe not even that; just the choice to acquiesce in hopes of reducing the pain, or hurting even more until you did. That’s no choice at all, and even an adult in such a situation can’t really be blamed for what they do in it, let alone a child.

  165. Ogvorbis says

    Magician’s choice is not a real choice for anyone not a magician, which is, like, all of us.

    I know! That’s why I’m crying and smiling.

  166. says

    Oggie my friend, from what I understand about the history of your abuse… there were things that were done TO you and then things that were done THROUGH you. In neither case are you responsible or guilty of any wrongdoing, and you weren’t and aren’t a bad person. Everyone who knows you even a little bit knows that you’re full of love and empathy and compassion for other people. Maybe you can find it in your heart to extend those things to the little kid that you used to be? That kid deserves it, and so does the adult that the child grew into.

  167. cicely (Distressing Unto Eagles) says

    And, thinking about this now, I think that a possible reason I enjoyed abusing her was that I was not being abused. In a world of pain, absence of pain could be considered pleasure.

    I would be surprised if something along these same lines isn’t involved in why otherwise-decent people sometimes fall willingly, even eagerly, into becoming accessories to genocide-level atrocities; “See, I’m helping you! Don’t hurt me!”
     
    And maybe it bundles naturally and well with Stockholm Syndrome.
    -

  168. rq says

    Ogvorbis
    See Improbable Joe above.

    Can I invite everyone for a group hug*? Or is that too much for the [Lounge]?

    *Participation optional, of course, for those who aren’t into that sort of thing.

  169. Ogvorbis says

    Maybe you can find it in your heart to extend those things to the little kid that you used to be?

    One of the reasons I look at myself as a failure as a human being was that I could not understand how I could have made that choice — the choice to hurt someone else. Looking at it as a magician’s choice, though, means that choice was not even mine to make. I didn’t make that decision. Which means that beating myself up for making that decision is contraindicated.

    Thanks for listening and prodding and yelling. Really. I mean that.

  170. athyco says

    Yay, group hug!

    Do you mind, Ogvorbis, that I’m happy that Beatrice got you to cry/smile?

  171. Ogvorbis says

    Do you mind, Ogvorbis, that I’m happy that Beatrice got you to cry/smile?

    NO. Why the fuck would I mind?

  172. says

    I did have a choice, but that choice was a magicians choice — either way I lost. I could hurt or be hurt.

    You really didn’t have a choice, Ogvorbis. We all avoid physical and psychic pain, especially when we’re children. When the pain is such that you’ll do anything to avoid it, that’s not much of choice, is it? An adult might be able to think this through and decide to take on abuse and pain to spare another, but that’s asking a hell of a lot from a child.

  173. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    This seems like a humongous breakthrough from where I’m sitting and I’m super happy to have been here while it happened, Og. :D

  174. says

    Group hugs are good.
    cicely

    I would be surprised if something along these same lines isn’t involved in why otherwise-decent people sometimes fall willingly, even eagerly, into becoming accessories to genocide-level atrocities; “See, I’m helping you! Don’t hurt me!”

    Robert Anton Wilson described something the called the SNAFU principle, explaining why situation normal is all fucked up. He held that in hierarchical organizations, where superiors can punish those below them (be it through firing or firing squad), people will tell those above them in the hierarchy whatever they think will result in them not getting punished. Thus, as information goes up the hierarchy, it becomes more and more slanted, until the people at the top are making decisions based on complete delusion, which decisions look totally insane to those at the bottom. The relevant part of this to your comment occurs when you work for a group whose job is to ferret out Communists/Jews/counter-revolutionaries/witches/whatever; the person at the top believes that this is a big threat, and everyone below them is feeding them info slanted to support that belief (because they don’t want to be punished). So, the higher ups know that the country is infested with undesirables, who are up to all kinds of nastiness. So, if you’re a low level agent, you had better identify a lot of them, because otherwise people might start to think that you’re one of them

  175. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Considering perhaps that Og would cause less harm to the other child than the adult would cause to Ogvorbis, there’s a situation in which it could have been the utilitarian option. Least harm overall. Especially if the other child would have been hurt regardless.

  176. Ogvorbis says

    Considering perhaps that Og would cause less harm to the other child than the adult would cause to Ogvorbis, there’s a situation in which it could have been the utilitarian option. Least harm overall. Especially if the other child would have been hurt regardless.

    Considering that I was about ten and she was four or five, what I did hurt her less than when it was done by one of the adults. Which really doesn’t matter all that much. I didn’t make the (non) decision to save Su (I remember her name, whoshi is, oh, I’m so sorry.

    Tears flowing. Sorry.

  177. athyco says

    I’m sorry, Ogvorbis. Was I leaning too flippant too soon?

    Cry/smile is good; it’s lancing a boil.

  178. Ogvorbis says

    Has anyone ever had a nervous breakdown in the middle of a thread before? Well, actually, whatever the opposite of a nervous breakdown is?

    I need to take some time out. Talk to you tomorrow.

  179. cicely (Distressing Unto Eagles) says

    Can I invite everyone for a group hug*? Or is that too much for the [Lounge]?

    I’m in! *hugs*
    :)

    Dalillama: That would also lend itself well to “confirmation” of the biases of the people at the top of the organisation.

    I need to take some time out. Talk to you tomorrow.

    Take whatever time you need!
    *extrahugs*
    :)
    -

  180. carlie says

    We need one gigantic fluffy platform with loads of down comforters and pillows so there can be a big giant pile of cozy snuggles and hug space.

  181. says

    I’m certainly up for a group hug, having just fixed my wifi problem this morning. I haz internetz!
    As far as I can tell, the driver was disabled, for no reason I can think of. Seems to be how it was set at the factory. I would have thought the troubleshoot program would have figured that out, but no.
    Anyway, once again I can sit in my room, fool around on the internet and watch hours & days go by while my life turns further to shit. Yay!

  182. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Oggie:
    It sounds like you made a breakthrough. Awesome.
    Though you are offline now, I am joining in the hugs in your honor.
    Also, am I misremembering, or were you unable to remember her name? And it seems now you can?
    I hope you are able to forgive yourself and begin healing.

  183. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    JAL, I, uh, have not received an email? Try again plz?

    Drat. I saved it as draft instead of sent. *grumble* Stupid Google changes. I’ll send it now, it’s just me asking for the money so I can go to the dentist.
    —–
    —–

    Ogvorbis, I’m sorry for what you went though. I know I’m late to the conversation but I agree with everyone else here and am SO glad we could help feel better. *hugs* if you want them.

  184. Pteryxx says

    *queues up to fluffyhug all the ankles*

    Congratz, Ogvorbis. I’m so glad you finally remembered her name after how the not knowing has plagued you.

  185. rq says

    Ogvorbis
    I’m so terribly happy for you, big group hugs, and all that – and I’m glad you remember her name now, because I know that will be a smidgeon of relief to you. And… and… and… Talk to you tomorrow, hopefully!

    I feel like the Horde has done a magical, wonderful thing here tonight (from my end). This is what I signed up for.

    +++

    I want a teensy bit of that group hug for myself, too. I think my dad’s about to deliver some bad news on the (return of) cancer. :/

  186. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    Oh rq, lots of hugs for you. What makes you think so?

  187. dianne says

    Hugs all around!

    Something bothering me: Og and other decent people like him take the blame for things that they couldn’t help while the real abusers probably never feel a second’s guilt. What is wrong with society that the people incapable of guilt and regret at harming others always seem to come out on top?

  188. rq says

    Portia
    Just the email he said that a bunch of news is imminent and that he has to go for another biopsy. He never talks about medical details unless they’re to the negative. It took him forever to tell the (immediate) family about his leukemia, and the only reason he did was because I’d vaguely remembered mum mentioning something about something blood leukocyte levels something, and we were looking into the feasibility of storing stem cells for possible future use and such and I asked for more info. And then he told the rest of the siblings, even though it had been going on for years. So the fact that he’s mentioning that some of his indicators aren’t too good and he has to go in for a biopsy, well… It’s a bit of an indicator in and of itself (and the fact that he recently had a growth removed from his vocal chords – not sure if that was ever checked or just removed).
    (We never did the stem cells, either, because after looking into it and talking to a few people I know, it seemed like a bit of a scam for money. I don’t doubt the usefulness of stem cells; I doubt the conditions allowing for an appropriate-for-storage stem cell sample to be taken be a random nurse in the delivery room.)

  189. rq says

    dianne
    It’s just wrong with the values society seems to hold dear… Because I can’t for the life of me understand it, either.
    (I think also something to do with the glorification of the psychopathic characteristics in materially successful people mentioned above…)

  190. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    I have to run to the car dealership, but I really hope you’re not right about your dad. : ( Sounds like you know his tells pretty well though. Lots of hugs either way, and take care.

  191. says

    This place is amazing. This afternoon was amazing with extra gravy.

    Hogs to Ogvorbis, Gilliel, rq and everyone else who needs/wants them.

  192. says

    Dianne:

    Og and other decent people like him take the blame for things that they couldn’t help while the real abusers probably never feel a second’s guilt.

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but in my case, it was cold inculcation, that it was all me. Every single bit of abuse, from being locked up to being raped for 6 years, was my fault.

    As for how they don’t feel guilt? Some do. Some don’t. As for “coming out on top”, well, we can look to societal and cultural attitudes for all that. Women have been considered to be property, sub-human property, for a very long time. The same applies to children. Deep rooted attitudes tend to dismiss what people do with their own property.

    Look at cases where a woman is a child abuser, rapist or murderer. There’s still a reluctance on the part of authorities, juries and everyone else to believe a woman is capable of such acts. Deep roots.

  193. rq says

    Thanks, Portia, MikeG.

    In other random news, I think by tomorrow (I’ll give it to the end of the week) I may have the Pharyngula Commune information (with the absolutely irreplaceable help of Portia and Socio-gen) up and postable. Who do I contact to have it added to the Pharyngula wiki (or how to do it myself)?
    Also, I’d like to post it for those interested to look over, and for anyone not on the list to be able to be added/add themselves.
    Going through the commune thread, I have to say – this is one well-rounded, talented bunch that will definitely not be zombie fodder, come whatever apocalypse or high water.
    It would be great, though, to get a list of all known languages in the information.
    I know it was all just for laughs, but in a sense it’s a great collection of what we, as a group, know. A reminder of our various and interesting talents and abilities and collected knowledge. Sort of a light-hearted piece of self-affirmation for those times when we may be feeling a bit down – we can look at this document (two, actually) and say, Hey, at least the zombies won’t get us!

  194. says

    I very much enjoyed the first Austin Powers movie, as a Bond spoof. So many genre-skewering gags. I agree they got worse, and I hated the Fat Bastard.

    Big *hugs* to Og Vorbis. You are most definitely not a failure. Maybe “struggling”, if you must acknowledge your problems in your nym. I’m not good at the praise and encouragement thing, but I always appreciate your posts and you come across to me as a compassionate, thoughtful and intelligent person. And, you know, if you really were a bad person then this would not hurt you so much as it does. What would you care about having (been used to) hurt another person? But you *do* care, so there you are, not so evil after all. QED.

    Oddly, your posts make me see the point of the sociopath article better. Yeah, I agree that it’s being stupidly overhyped and is annoying, but there is one underlying point. If depression is “malignant sadness” (a book title) then sociopathy might be “malignant confidence”? Too much of a good thing becomes a cancer. Seems like our Oggy could use some more of it, even though a fuckload of people out there need a fuckload less of it.

  195. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Over the years, I have come across many profiles where people describe themselves as “down to earth”. I was talking with my roomie, E, the other day about this. What does “down to earth” actually mean? If you aren’t down to earth, what are you?

    Some combination of pretentious, ambitious, and circumspect, I suppose?

    Speaking of cars, I recently got a new battery and ever since, my car sputters and darn nearly shuts off when I come to a full stop. So annoying and bc I am broke, I cannot do anything about it.

    I had that problem with the company-owned car I was driving for a while and it turned out to be the fuel pump. Which I was pretty damn sure it was, but the generally honest mechanics I had come to depend on couldn’t find anything wrong via engine diagnostics, which seems to have become their “when all you have is a hammer” at some point in the past. My coworker, to whom the car was eventually sold, was able to fix it himself. I’d check and tighten all the accessible battery leads, though, and check for corrosion around them.

  196. says

    Tony,
    Could it be a bad connection on the battery? I had that happen on the motorcycle. I don’t know enough about car electrical systems to know if that’ll matter.

  197. says

    News flash! A giant squid has been filmed, live and unharmed, by researchers “using lights invisible to squid, bioluminescent lures, and “secret squid attractants.” This will be on the Discovery Channel’s new series “Monster Squid,” which starts January 27th. The article cleverly did not say if the giant squid will be on the first episode or saved for later. There’s a preview here, which shows their first glimpse of the squid. You’ll like it.

  198. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    I ordered a used copy of Gaining Ground: The Origin and Evolution of Tetrapods (Clack, 2012) through Amazon. On Monday, it was delivered. On Wednesday, I got an email saying it had been shipped. – Ogvorbis, triumph over adversity

    Because I’m currently* working part-time in a secondhand-bookshop-cum-restaurant-cum-internet-cafe, I am able to explain this. Every evening, the bookshop catalogue is uploaded to Amazon, and a couple of other online retailers. If someone buys one of our books through Amazon, they email us with the buyer’s address, I post it to the buyer, then tell Amazon I’ve done so. Two separate operations – so if the second gets left undone for a while, the book can arrive before Amazon even know it’s been posted.

    *Not for long – minimum wage is not enough to compensate for the time, stress and disruption when you don’t absolutely need the money.

  199. mildlymagnificent says

    Esteleth

    Lard help me, I have discovered another Historical British Show™and I cannot get enough of of it: Call the Midwife. It is quite entertaining, even if credulity-straining.

    I know this is a coupla hundred posts ago – but I had to sleep ‘n’ stuff. What do you find strains credulity? Starting the NHS or life in the slums or how the midwives lived? I won’t ask any more ‘cos I don’t know where you’re up to so I don’t want to give away any spoilers.

  200. Pteryxx says

    More good news – Chris Kluwe (the football player who took down an anti-gay bigot with cusses like ‘beautifully unique sparklepony’) will be on Colbert tonight, and he’s given an interview to MoJo:

    http://www.motherjones.com/media/2013/01/chris-kluwe-nfl-vikings-gay-marriage-interview-colbert

    MJ: A lot of people read that exchange. What prompted you to go nuclear?

    CK: Well, my writing career was primarily born from the World of Warcraft realm forums, where if you go after someone, you’d better make sure you’ve got your ducks in a row or they’re going to come right back at you. When I saw his column I laughed because (a) it was pretty funny; he had some good lines in there; and (b) this is exactly how I’d been writing for the last like four years because I’d been playing WoW. And I was like, well, if you want to get into this arena, I am more than well versed in how to battle. I started browsing the forums to just kind of entertain myself, and I noticed that you could get some pretty funny conversations going if you knew how to write. For me it was about, okay, if I want to call someone out, the only way to do so without being ignored is to craft a completely logical argument that has a hook. And for me that was creative insults—because who doesn’t like a creative insult?

    MJ: So that’s how expressions like “beautifully unique sparklepony” and “lustful cockmonster” came into being?

    CK: Right, exactly: through a seething pit of ignoramuses, born of misspoken children on the internet.

  201. cicely (ummm...Digressing Onto Beagles?) says

    rq, take as many *hugs* as you need. Here’s hoping that the news is less grim than you fear.

    Something bothering me: Og and other decent people like him take the blame for things that they couldn’t help while the real abusers probably never feel a second’s guilt.

    Why, dianne—once Jesus Has Forgiven Them, it’s all water under the bridge, and they have a societally-approved excuse not to feel guilt for their abuses. Clearly, the Real Problem is that Og doesn’t believe in Jesus. If only he would believe…then, fault or no fault, red-handed or undiscovered, it would all be washed away.
    </snark>

    we can look at this document (two, actually) and say, Hey, at least the zombies won’t get us!

    Speak for yourself! The zombies will have me and my tasssty brainzzz on a silver platter faster than you can say “serious structural flaws”.
    -

  202. says

    Nick:

    Two separate operations – so if the second gets left undone for a while, the book can arrive before Amazon even know it’s been posted.

    Huh. I don’t deal with Amazon, I use B&N and I never get fucked up notices. It’s always the receipt and expected ship date first, then ‘we’ve shipped x’ notice.

  203. mildlymagnificent says

    Oggie

    Take care of yourself.

    Take care of that little boy you’re still carrying with you. Treat him as a kind adult should have done way back then.

  204. birgerjohansson says

    When I read this book I was reminded of the Tea Party:

    Excerpt from “Sensation” by Nick Mamatas on the topic of “penis panic”
    — — — — — — — —

    Raymond: “Ever heard of penis panic?”

    Smith: “Let’s pretend I have not, professor. Enlighten me.”

    Raymond: “It’s a culturally bound mental disorder, a psychosis.

    Common… well not common, but present in Southeast Asia and Africa. Men believe thast their penises are shrinking, melting or retracting back into their abdomens due to a curse, or, in some cases, propaganda enemies. cell phones, Zionists, chemical warfare. It’s a social disorder, too. Once a man decides that his penis is withering thanks to a sorceress or Israel, he cannot help but complain about it. Then other men start thinking that their penises are shrinking too. Hysteria breaks out. They get together in the streets, these men, and go on rampages, smashing store windows, running through marketplaces, attacking elderly women. It starts local but becomes regional. Sometimes thousands of men fly into penis panics over the course of a few weeks, especially if the local media picks up the story.”

    “Anyway, patriarchal, phallocentric, hierarchal, shame-based societies all the ingredients are there. The penis is infused with immense personal and social power. Men at or near the bottom of the hierarchy are especially anxious because there are no social safety nets, and there is immense pressure to succeed and substantial entrenched corruption that keeps them at the bottom of the heap.”

  205. says

    rq:

    Commune files? Make a note that I’m currently unarmed as far as firearms are concerned… I still have knives and a really large sword. I may secure another firearm at some point, but at the moment I feel pretty safe and zombie-free. :)

  206. carlie says

    Lard help me, I have discovered another Historical British Show™and I cannot get enough of of it: Call the Midwife. It is quite entertaining, even if credulity-straining.

    I can do you one better – I’ve discovered Korean drama. Lard help me is right. I mainlined 17 episodes of “I Miss You” this weekend.

    Take care of that little boy you’re still carrying with you. Treat him as a kind adult should have done way back then.

    Very sound advice. I don’t know if you have the opportunity to do so, but back when I was going through some crap related to interpreting things that happened when I was young, I coincidentally came down with an illness that left me completely fatigued and sleeping most of the time for about 4 days. However, during that time I was able to work through a whole lot of said crap, because I was lying in bed doing absolutely nothing else. If you have any chance to just take a day or two off and do nothing but be alone with your thoughts, might that do some good? Disclaimer: I know nothing of psychology.

    rq, I’m holding my breath for you too.

  207. birgerjohansson says

    Ing
    “I hate HATE HATE Dexter as a show because of the “Romantic Sociopath” trope.”

    Antway, sociopaths and the other kind, narcissistic something, would not have the level of introspection and awareness of his flaws that Dexter exhibits. Dexter is a sick puppy but not a realistic psychopath.
    And vigilantes should not be seen as romantic. The only vigilantes I can feel a trace of symphaty for are the ones in South Africa, dirt poor people stuck in slums and without effective support by the police they have very few choices other than try chasing off the gangs on their own.

  208. Pteryxx says

    for all with an interest in (laughing at) science: #overlyhonestmethods

    http://io9.com/5974256/overlyhonestmethods-is-the-postsecret-of-the-science-world-and-it-is-amazing

    Taq was incubated o/n at 20ºC because there were donuts in the break room & I forgot to put it back in the freezer. #overlyhonestmethods
    — Karen James (@kejames) January 8, 2013

    Two days to isolate the protein, five weeks to generate the hilarious double-entendre name for the gene.#overlyhonestmethods #flynerds
    — Drug Monkey (@drugmonkeyblog) January 8, 2013

    All experimenters — and authors — were blind to the study’s hypotheses. #OverlyHonestMethods
    — Kane_WMC_Lab (@Kane_WMC_Lab) January 8, 2013

  209. says

    Birger:

    Antway, sociopaths and the other kind, narcissistic something, would not have the level of introspection and awareness of his flaws that Dexter exhibits.

    That’s why the Dexter character’s “introspection” comes from outside, from his “father”.

  210. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Anyway, patriarchal, phallocentric, hierarchal, shame-based societies all the ingredients are there.

    Problem with this interpretation:

    koro happens to women too, who believe that their vulva or nipples are receding into their bodies.

  211. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Thevonly kind of penis panic I ever have is when I don’t have an additional one-attached to a cute guy-to ‘color’ with.

  212. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Whenever I look up koro, I always accidentally look up kuru first.

  213. Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism) says

    Blue font? I thought only PZ got cool colors.

  214. opposablethumbs says

    Ogvorbis, I hope you sleep well and that if you dream your dreams are good ones. You must be shattered. (UK shattered, that is – not sure if it translates the same). I’m really hoping this turns out to have been a positive day for you – and have another bit of that group hug {{hugs Horde}}
    .
    rq, {{more group hug}} to you too. Tentacles crossed that your father’s news is not too bad.
    .
    Commune files, yay!
    .
    Good night Horde {{hugs Horde a bit more}}

  215. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Hmm. I need to take a full swig before I decide, but I may have increased the number of IPAs I can stand to 3. O.o (All of them are “Black IPAs” though, and I don’t really LIKE any of them all that much.)

  216. says

    Ogvorbis, you’re one of my favourite people on Pharyngula. I always look for your posts. And please, forgive yourself. If necessary, try reverse psychology: “Yes, I should have known better. Even though I was only six and overwhelmed…” With any luck, your inner voice will start yelling, “Bullshit!” *sending some love*

  217. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    I’ll take a look.

    Just realized; Dubhe tastes vaguely like stilton O.o

    (I swear it was labeled on the shelf as “Imperial Black Ale,” and I was mildly distressed at noticing the “IPA” label when I got home with it. x.x)

  218. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says

    Although, I buy from Sam Adams sporadically. I realized recently that I reflexively think less of a brewery if it makes a “light beer,” and I’m not sure why. O.o