That’s not rape! It’s “intercourse marriage”


You know, one of the tough things about being a jihadist is that you get all these…urges, yet all the freedom fighters around you are covered with beards and body hair. And of course, as a devout, pious Muslim you also want to maintain your purity. What to do, what to do?

An Islamic cleric has come up with an answer! A fatwa that sanctifies rape!

Muhammed al-Arifi, a Wahhabi religious cleric, officially calls this act an “intercourse marriage” that can last only a few hours – “in order to give each fighter a turn” — and restricts the men to Syrian females at least 14 years old, widowed or divorced.

Al-Arifi, expressed his annoyance at the "warriors of Islam" being denied sexual pleasures while fighting in Syria “alongside the armed opposition forces” for the past two years. He said this fatwa "solves [their] sexual problems" and “boosts the determination of the mujahideen in Syria and is considered a duty to enter paradise for those females who enter such marriages.”

Hey, rape victims! You weren’t being brutalized: you were entering a kind of marriage that will win you a spot in paradise once you’re dead!


Taslima beat me to it.


This story has been retracted by the source.

Comments

  1. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    The “they must be widows or divorcees” thing really makes it obvious, I think: because they’re not virgins, they’re unrapeable, and therefore eligible to be gang-raped.

  2. Rawnaeris, FREEZE PEACHES says

    I noticed that Taslima had posted about it, but I chose not to click on it, mostly because I figured my reaction would be exactly what it was. Do to the rage-induced incoherency, I posted it on TD, rather than here.
     
    I’ll go read Taslima’s take on this now.

  3. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    I am suddenly reminded of the fact that IBTP has, amongst all its other tags that label posts, one called “Men Hate You.”

  4. Louis says

    If this is true, and I have little reason to believe it isn’t, my species is more than capable of such hideousness, can I apply to a different species now?

    Seriously, I’d like to spend a good while as a sea cucumber to cleanse myself.

    Louis

  5. scienceavenger says

    Oh suuuuure PZ, you are so quick to criticize Christians, but where are your criticisms of Muslims, hmmmm? I mean if they did the same…wait a minute…

  6. says

    Having browsed through Taslima’s links, hers seem more reliable than PZ’s. It would probably be better to link to those rather than the radicalislam.org website, which seems to have quite a bit of questionable material.

  7. says

    This kind of “temporary marriage” is used to allow soldiers to rape women before they are executed, to deny the women a place in paradise because they’re not virgins. And, of course, to torture them in their last hours.

  8. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Reminds me of the blanket forgiveness of sins the Pope would give before the Crusades to allow rampant looting and raping.

  9. =8)-DX says

    If this was not a virgin asshole fundamentalist, “intercourse marriage” sounds like an Islamic validation of the one-night stand. But “in order to give each fighter a turn” is a get out of non-jail free card for rape during a civil war.

  10. vaiyt says

    How convenient! Struggling with dogma in face of what your political leaders tell you to do / basic decency and empathy / your rapacious and selfish desires? No problem, someone will find a way to rationalize it all for you!

  11. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Do we have a strong confirmation of this story? I only ask cause I think I remember one time one of these turned out to be a report by a rival sect saying that the sect in question said that.

  12. says

    Yeah, I’m with Wes@ #10. This is NOT a reliable source for information about Muslism, Islam, or the Middle East. These are the sort of right-wing evangelical Christian, anti-Muslim bigots that Ed Brayton is always posting about. The site is run by the Clarion Fund, which includes Frank Gaffney on its board. And if you read Ed’s blog, you know that Gaffney sees evil Muslim extremists EVERYWHERE… including the Romney campaign!

  13. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @Improbable Joe

    And from some of my Arab friends they report that it’s not common to get intersect squabble fights of “how can you follow those assholes they say *this*” propaganda.

  14. says

    Even if it’s not true, it’s in the ballpark. Just in the last year there was the Saudi cleric who decreed that sex with children in marriage is permissable once they can take a man’s weight, and the Egyptian guy(was it in parliament? I cant remember)who brought in legislation that allows sex with your dead wife up to 6 hours after her death.

    Isn’t religion awesome when you’re male and hetero.

  15. frankensteinmonster says

    Isn’t religion awesome when you’re male and hetero.

    .
    u mean pedo- or necro-hetero…

  16. says

    My understanding is that this is more often about prostitution than rape. Of course there is a huge overlap between women being raped and women having to resort to prostitution, and a huge overlap between the ownership of women and lack of opportunities for women in general. Certainly a fourteen year old confined to brothel and having multiple partners a day can hardly be considered a free agent maximizing her lifetime earning potential.

    Apologists will make it sound like this is about casual sex, or about Romeo and Juliet deciding whether they really want to go through with it, but the reality in Islamic law countries is that your chances of finding a reasonably supportive husband plummet if you agree to a temporary marriage. Even most fundamentalist Muslim men don’t buy into this one, which is why this maroon issued a fatwa about it.

  17. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    I’ve just posted the following on Taslima’s blog – it’s awaiting moderation.

    If this fatwa has indeed been issued – and I don’t find it inherently implausible – then it is truly horrific. But do we know that it has? The video does not show Muhammed al-Arifi issuing the fatwa, it shows someone else claiming that he has done so, on the “Eretz Zen Channel” of LiveLeak. This appears to be a pro-Bashar-Assad source. Here is the same channel reporting, evidently favourably, on a “leading Islamic scholar” praising the Syrian army.

    Does anyone have another source confirming the issuing of this fatwa?

  18. frankensteinmonster says

    Does anyone have another source confirming the issuing of this fatwa?

    The Eretz Zen youtube video claims it was on the Lebanese al-Jadeed TV. No clue however, how to verify it. Because it offers no English version of its website. Maybe someone who knows enough Arabic could search it there.

  19. says

    Muhammed al-Arifi, a Wahhabi religious cleric, officially calls this act an “intercourse marriage” that can last only a few hours – “in order to give each fighter a turn”

    Some days I really wish I hadn’t woken up. This, one of those days.

  20. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    frankensteinmonster@31,

    I don’t see the claim that “it” (what, exactly?) was on al Jadeed – could you point me to it? According to this item, al Jadeed is generally pro-Assad, but has had some run-ins with the Syrian government and its Lebanese allies recently. Unless there’s an actual video of the fatwa being issued, or similar, I don’t think a mere report on al Jadeed would take us any further forward.

  21. frankensteinmonster says

    @Nick Gotts I was talking about the youtube video I posted in #16. It was otherwise identical to the liveleak one, but in its description is written, that it was on the al-Jadeed TV. And yes, it merely says that al-Arifi issued such fatwa.
    .
    Whether it takes us any further, dunno. But if it could be proven, that there was NO report on al Jadeed like that, the matter would be settled. On the other hand, if there was such report, then at least we would know that the Eretz Zen didn’t make the whole thing up, and could search from where did the al Jadeed get it.

  22. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @Rorschach

    Um the “sex with dead wife” thing was bogus IIRC and an example of the “can you believe what so-and-so said” propaganda I cited.

    http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/04/egypt-necrophilia-law-hooey-utter-hooey/

    See THIS is exactly why I’m skeptical of this. I’m pretty sure when that story came about here it was corrected in comments to but people keep remembering it as true.

  23. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    frankensteinmonster,

    Thanks – I’m so unused to youTube that I hadn’t expanded the description.

    There’s a link there to another source of the story (but just showing a different still of al-Arifi), Press TV. This is apparently an Iranian channel, broadcasting from Tehran and so presumably Iranian-government backed. There’s a comment there from someone claiming to have “read somewhere” that al-Arifi has denied saying what is being reported.

    So far, this story doesn’t stand up.

  24. birgerjohansson says

    Hm, when bin Laden was in Marocco he apparently abducted a model from sub-saharan Africa and raped her during the weeks she was held prisoner. He apparently had some ceremony that proclaimed her his “wife”, so this behaviour is not unique, even if the “marriage” is usually a cover for using prostitutes.
    .
    BTW Bangladesh -which is not officially a fundie state- allows fathers to pay debts by selling daughters into prostitution at huge brothels. It is nominally illegal but the government and authorities do not care.
    .
    The people who maintain this system will make perfectly good Soylent Green when global warming fucks over food production.

  25. Rich Woods says

    Sick bucket. Sick bucket, please! SICK BUCKET!!

    OK, I accept that there’s some fact checking still to be done.

    >at least 14 years old, widowed or divorced.

    I hope the translaton of this isn’t accurate either, because in terms of sets I can’t work out what is union or intersection. I’m not sure that I want to either.

  26. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    Further to my #36,
    Press TV is in fact funded and controlled by the Iranian state. But the Press TV report is dated later (2012/12/31) than the one allegedly from al Jadeed (2012/12/09).

    And here is the al Jadeed story, in a pisspoor translation, dated 2012/12/28. Still no actual video of al-Afiri saying anything, or real evidence that he did issue this fatwa, but one step forward in tracing the story.

  27. Rich Woods says

    @birgerjohansson:

    The people who maintain this system will make perfectly good Soylent Green when global warming fucks over food production.

    But seriously, if they’ve done all that would you really want to eat them?

    Personally, I’d feed them to the pigs first.

  28. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Hm, when bin Laden was in Marocco he apparently abducted a model from sub-saharan Africa and raped her during the weeks she was held prisoner.,

    Citation?

  29. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    But seriously, if they’ve done all that would you really want to eat them?

    Personally, I’d feed them to the pigs first.

    *puts on PC Cop hat* Hey can we take a step back and think if any unfortunate implications about talking about how a bunch of brown forigners a) deserve to be killed and b) are so horrible they need to be eaten by the wild beasts?

  30. says

    @Ing 43

    *puts on PC hat and thinks…*

    Nope. In a hypothetical starving, globally warmed/soylent green world, I cannot think of any unfortunate implications of killing and/or eating fathers who sell daughters into prostitution to pay their debts. Whether they’re brown foreigners or delicious roasted Caucasians.

  31. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Oh I’m sorry you said soylent green. That is indeed a magic word that removes all uncomfortable realities of sitting around talking about how a whole bunch of people need a good killing.

  32. says

    The people who maintain this system will make perfectly good Soylent Green when global warming fucks over food production.

    Personally, I’d feed them to the pigs first.

    Nope. In a hypothetical starving, globally warmed/soylent green world, I cannot think of any unfortunate implications of killing and/or eating fathers who sell daughters into prostitution to pay their debts. Whether they’re brown foreigners or delicious roasted Caucasians.

    Could we cut this shit out? It’s bad enough that PZ is linking to xenophobic, right wing propaganda rags as if they were reporting real news. Let’s not exacerbate it by adding “Push comes to shove, I’d kill ‘em” on top of it.

    This has nothing to do with being “PC”*. It has to do with not making a lousy situation worse.

    *(A term which is really meaningless anyways. Playing the “PC police” card is just a way for the right to try to shut the left up whenever the left points out obvious bigotry on their part.)

  33. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    Citation? – Ing

    Good grief, Ing – we don’t need citations where the evil deeds of Moooslemterrists are concerned. Nor do we need to think about the sort of desperation that might just possibly lead even a basically decent parent to sacrifice one child to prevent others starving. What are you thinking?

  34. says

    Here, Ing: I’ll say it again without any words you might erroneously think are magical.

    Fathers who sell their daughters into prostitution are de facto murderers.

    In the hypothetical world under discussion, yeah, that “whole bunch of people need a good killing.” In that hypothetical world there is also a magical thing called “dark humor.” In this thread, well, apparently not so much.

  35. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    irisvanderpluym,

    Have you by any chance ever watched or read Sophie’s Choice?

  36. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    “Dark humour”? Is that the kind where you joke about feeding dark people to pigs?

  37. says

    Nick Gotts

    Have you by any chance ever watched or read Sophie’s Choice?

    Yes. It was heartbreaking, and has haunted me to this moment.

    And yes, I have thought about the “sort of desperation that might just possibly lead even a basically decent parent to sacrifice one child to prevent others starving.” Let’s be clear here, though. What we’re talking about — specifically — is a father selling his female child into a short life of violent rape and early death. FFS, why not just kill her and feed her to your other more worthy starving kids? (For the dark humor impaired, I hope it’s clear that I am not actually advocating this as a superior alternative.)

  38. says

    “Dark humour”? Is that the kind where you joke about feeding dark people to pigs?

    No, it’s the kind where I joke about feeding murderous fathers to starving kids. With bacon.

  39. a_ray_in_dilbert_space says

    I would agree with Ing, Nick and Wes. Muslims are an easily targeted group. At the very least, we should look to a reliable source for confirmation, and even then no amount of outrage justifies calls for mass murder. I understand the outrage. I understand the anger. I’m not comfortable for calls for cannibalizing members of a minority community (in our society, anyway) even in jest.

  40. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Everything is okay as long as you specify that it’s just humor.

  41. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Fathers who sell their daughters into prostitution are de facto murderers.

    How does that follow? If they were selling their daughters to the slaughter house they’d be murderers. They are in fact slavers.

  42. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    irisvanderpluym@52,

    Of course selling your child – or anyone – into prostitution is a terrible thing to do. But the fictional Sophie also did a terrible thing. Circumstances – particularly, in this case, hideously unjust socio-economic systems – do sometimes force even basically decent people into doing terrible things. If you’d really thought about this, I don’t think you, or the others doing so, would be making those sort of “jokes”.

  43. Gregory Greenwood says

    The fact that this sounds so very awful, and that the link goes to a site known for its anti-islamic attitudes, and that the providence of the story seems to be hard to establish, leads me to think that we are very much in ‘huge pinch of salt’ territory.

    This whole thing smells like it could easily be simple propaganda to me.

    That said, if it is true (and humanity certainly has a nasty track record of such things), then it is one more reason to wonder what the fictional hell-trope is wrong with our species.

  44. says

    “Fathers who sell their daughters into prostitution” is not an oppressed minority, in the PC sense being discussed here. Nor it is a Muslim phenomenon. Nor is anyone actually calling for their mass murder and cannibalization.

    SG:

    Not everything is okay if it’s specified as humor. But I will continue to relentlessly ridicule and mock misogynist oppression wherever it occurs, whether you find it funny or not.

    Is PZ’s post mocking Muslims?

  45. a_ray_in_dilbert_space says

    StrangeGods, I get that you, too are joking. However:

    Humor doesn’t always translate well on the intertubes–and even if it does translate, it can be taken out of context.

  46. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Well so far the precursory google search of “Did Bin Laden Kidnap Model” produces no links even hinting at the suggested story. So if this is true can someone help me out?

  47. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    “Fathers who sell their daughters into prostitution” is not an oppressed minority

    Fuck me you’re being stupid

    a: an oppressed minority might do horrible things to survive
    b: people who do horrible thing are not oppressed minorities!
    Ing: facepalm

  48. a_ray_in_dilbert_space says

    Iris, Mock away! However, just as a rape joke is never OK, and murder joke is also over the line. Just sayin’.

    Like I say, I get the outrage. However, I’d like a better source, for one. And yes, I know there was a silly-assed fatwah in Iran that legalized 1 hour marriages prostitutes. Maybe there’s a more constructive form of mockery?

  49. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Not everything is okay if it’s specified as humor. But I will continue to relentlessly ridicule and mock misogynist oppression wherever it occurs, whether you find it funny or not.

    Yeah, I’m going to have to echo Ing here: “Fuck me you’re being stupid”.

    Ridiculing and mocking misogyny is not equivalent to talking about murdering people. Also, talking about murdering people does not automatically become okay just because you’re talking about murdering [some category of criminal].

    Is PZ’s post mocking Muslims?

    Some. What’s your point? He’s not advocating murder.

  50. says

    OMFG you guys. I picked up on a joke by birgerjohansson @38 about cannibalizing fathers who sell their female children into prostitution in some hypothetical, cannibalistic post-apocalyptic world.

    I AM NOT ACTUALLY ADVOCATING THEIR MURDER AND/OR THE CULINARY ENJOYMENT OF ANYONE’S CORPSE.

    I may well be “being stupid.” If so, I hope you will be so kind to enlighten me — seriously. I am at a loss to how this is qualitatively different than the BBQ baby jokes I’ve seen (and very much enjoyed) in Pharyngula threads.

    Ing @56:

    How does that follow? If they were selling their daughters to the slaughter house they’d be murderers. They are in fact slavers.

    They are also slavers. Try Google scholar “child prostitution mortality.” Here’s one re: Brothel-based female child sex workers in Cambodia (pdf). Death from illegal abortions, PID, HIV, pregnancy complications and childbirth disproportionately affect prostituted female children.

  51. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    I may well be “being stupid.” If so, I hope you will be so kind to enlighten me — seriously. I am at a loss to how this is qualitatively different than the BBQ baby jokes I’ve seen (and very much enjoyed) in Pharyngula threads.

    See above

  52. says

    See above

    Not helpful.

    Joking about cannibalizing “people who do horrible things” = me being stupid? Is it not stupid if I joke about cannibalizing white babies? Or white people, period?

    According to a_ray, it’s never okay to joke about cannibalizing. Although I don’t agree, at least that’s consistent.

  53. glodson says

    When I first read this, my reaction was “Is there any horror that religion can’t make worse?” However like several here, I have doubts about the story. Still, the sentiment stands in general.

    If this isn’t true, I don’t understand the point. There are somany terrible things about the religion to talk about. I guess it makes for good propoganda saying “hey look how different they are!” I doubt strongly the type condemning Isalm with lies gives a damn about the treatment of women.

    About dark humor: this can be tricky to do right and saying “wouldn’t be funny if these assholes were murdered?” isn’t doing it right.

  54. says

    SG, I’m not surprised that people who also criticized birgerjohansson criticized me. I’m surprised at how literally people are taking this here.

    Thanks for the link to a good discussion about why rape jokes are qualitatively different that dead baby jokes, the pith of which is this:

    We don’t live in a society where everyone is taught mixed messages that cancer is good, murder is good, having a truck full of dead babies is good, mugging is good.

    We do live in a society where rape is basically accepted and most rapists will get away with it and be congratulated for it if they brag.

    In such a society, rape jokes do function as another message encouraging more rape.

    A splendid point, well made. But we don’t live in a society where we are taught mixed messages that cannibalizing is good, either.

    Humor can of course be a tool of oppression. That is why I try to be as careful as I can that my barbs hit only my intended targets with no splash damage. In case it is not clear, that is exactly the distinction I am trying to parse here. And I appreciate the help.

  55. strange gods before me ॐ says

    I’m surprised at how literally people are taking this here.

    Bullshit. Nobody is taking you literally. What we are saying is that it’s inappropriate to joke about. No-fucking-body thinks you are not “joking”

    But we don’t live in a society where we are taught mixed messages that cannibalizing is good, either.

    You will note I haven’t said a fucking thing about cannibalism:

    “Ridiculing and mocking misogyny is not equivalent to talking about murdering people. Also, talking about murdering people does not automatically become okay just because you’re talking about murdering [some category of criminal].

    “Some. What’s your point? He’s not advocating murder.”

    ‘“We should eat babies” is a very rare viewpoint. “We should murder [some criminals]” is not.’

  56. strange gods before me ॐ says

    According to a_ray, it’s never okay to joke about cannibalizing.

    Also bullshit:

    “Iris, Mock away! However, just as a rape joke is never OK, a murder joke is also over the line. Just sayin’. “

  57. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    For some reason the term “stubbornly obtuse” is coming to mind.

  58. Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay says

    Oh for fuck’s sake. You doods are leveling all kind of bullshit at Iris. Just when I think maybe it’s too rash to think some of the commentariat has been afflicted with an astonishingly tone-deaf view in service of social justice (which I’m board with), here it comes.

    Get some goddamned perspective.

  59. says

    Well so far the precursory google search of “Did Bin Laden Kidnap Model” produces no links even hinting at the suggested story. So if this is true can someone help me out?

    Several hits from “Bin Laden Rape” including
    http://www.newsrealblog.com/2011/05/17/the-secret-life-of-bin-laden-rape-pot-and-sex-slaves/
    http://necolebitchie.com/2011/05/16/osama-bin-ladens-mistress-kola-boof-speaks-out/

    I’m going to say something that I never thought I would say with a straight face: I suspect this is CIA “information ops” deception. There were rumors in the intelligence/cyberwar community that the US was attempting to smear Bin Laden using some stories designed to make him seem less like a good muslim and less manly. This sounds exactly like the kind of thing that the idiots in versailles-on-the-potomac would cook up. However, you may find some useful information in those links or find something by pursuing the name (“kola boof”) via google.

    The Secret Life of Bin Laden: Rape, Pot, And Sex Slaves
    by John Hawkins
    Posted on May 17 2011 7:31 pm

    Osama’s mistress Kola Boof…says at times the terrorist held her against her will and regularly raped her. He once kept her prisoner for 10 months in a Moroccan hotel, she says.

    After Bin Laden disappeared, Kola was told that he had found a replacement for her — a woman he kept chained in his Pakistan hideout to serve as his sex slave.

    …Bin Laden pretended to be pious — but was a hypocrite, revealed the friend. “Kola said she often found ‘Playboy’ magazines in his briefcase. His favorite television shows were ‘The Wonder Years,” ‘Miami Vice’ and ‘MacGyver.”

    ….She told her friend (Osama) was a regular pot smoker and said he was never on kidney dialysis, despite reports to the contrary.

    “Kola also described Osama as having horrible body odor, and said he often beat her to make her do what he wanted sexually.”

  60. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @Josh

    Really? You’re really going to take some people talk about how dem depraved foreigners need a killing and tell the people who are responding that they are tone deaf?

    Josh, just shut the fuck up about this. I am seriously on a short temper about playing the fucking bad guy every time this comes up because so few people have the privilege of knowing Arab people enough to even be aware they should be skeptical or aware of how such jokes sound.

    And now when we actually see here people misremembering propaganda bullshit as real things, I do feel a stupid obligation to remind people to at least try to check their privilege to see if they’re being mighty whitey.

  61. Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay says

    Ing. Nobody “dem depraved foreigners” “needing a killing”. Not even by implication simply because the comment-topic turned to the dubious and likely propagandistic origins of this story. Iris certainly didn’t. That’s an extraordinarily extreme overreading.

  62. says

    What we are saying is that it’s inappropriate to joke about.

    Fine, SG. I shall henceforth not joke about cannibalizing anyone here. Because that is what I was joking about — murder being the incidental and customary prerequisite to same.

    ‘“We should eat babies” is a very rare viewpoint. “We should murder cannibalize [some criminals]” is not also a very rare viewpoint.’

    FIFY.

    I also note that:

    That’s not rape! It’s “intercourse marriage”

    …is a rape joke. PZ is of course mocking the oppressor, although to be fair he is not advocating eating him.

    I’m really sorry, y’all. I apologize for both joking inappropriately, and for not understanding the line I have inadvertently crossed. I’m trying, but I just don’t get it. I’m very tired and maybe not thinking clearly (perhaps “being stupid” — it certainly wouldn’t be the first time, nor, unfortunately, is it likely to be the last). I will come back and reread the thread with fresh eyes and an open mind tomorrow morning in the hope of gaining a clearer understanding.

    Again, my apologies. I appreciate everyone’s thoughts.

  63. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @Josh

    “Some cultures even have indebted men selling their daughters into prostitution to pay debts: they are prime candidates for soylent green”

    “Nah those fuckers are too slimy even for that feed em to pigs”

    I am not over reading it. And yes there is some unfortunate implications to gathering around and laughing about how those horrible brown people are deserving of killing.

  64. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Fine, SG. I shall henceforth not joke about cannibalizing anyone here. Because that is what I was joking about — murder being the incidental and customary prerequisite to same.

    Oh fuck yourself in the eyes. That is not what anyone was complaining about.

  65. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    I think I’m just going to stay out of this one. A little too rage-y right now.

    Then do it and shut the fuck up with passive aggressive pissing like that.

  66. Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay says

    There comes a time when prioritizing a finely diced critique of a completely understandable expression of exasperated horror-humor (imagine a gay man fantasizing about beating the shit out of breeders, or, even, a woman fantasizing about feeding slaver fathers to pigs) begins to look like uncharitable and misplaced policing of form without regard to ethical content. I think you’re at that point with Iris, and I think we all at Pharyngula are getting to that point too often recently.

    You may think the moral imperative here is to quash sensational lies that demonize Muslims (I’m not unsympathetic, really!). But that does not mean it’s OK or even sensible to rope every comment into service of that narrative. Especially when it takes the form of —and let’s be honest, the accusation is transparent—accusing someone of race baiting when in fact she’s expressing the same exasperated horror that we all do so frequently. And especially when she’s a member of the class of people most affected by this patriarchal shit.

  67. Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay says

    Then do it and shut the fuck up with passive aggressive pissing like that.

    Do you need to take a break? Serious question. You’re way out of line and you’re wildly overreacting. What’s up with you, Ing?

  68. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @Josh

    Do you need a break? Everyone time this comes up you come in to be an ass on the subject.

  69. Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay says

    And I think you’ve got a one-track mind that makes you an ass on this very subject, which is so often your own creation, Ing. Even though you’re pretty awesome.

    Are we even?

  70. johnmarley says

    FFS, irisvanderpluym. Stop digging! Everyone gets that you were joking. It was inappropriate. Let it go.

  71. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    There comes a time when prioritizing a finely diced critique of a completely understandable expression of exasperated horror-humor (imagine a gay man fantasizing about beating the shit out of breeders, or, even, a woman fantasizing about feeding slaver fathers to pigs)

    Not what’s happening. It’s people on the other side of the world gafawing about the depravity of foreigners. But fine if you don’t like policing about harmless language that most certainty doesn’t contribute to any culture, I won’t be such a pussy about it

  72. consciousness razor says

    I AM NOT ACTUALLY ADVOCATING THEIR MURDER AND/OR THE CULINARY ENJOYMENT OF ANYONE’S CORPSE.

    Of course , you just “cannot think of any unfortunate implications of it.” I’m not sure in what sense that’s supposed to be “mocking” them. The joke is that you actually can think of unfortunate implications?

  73. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    And I think you’ve got a one-track mind that makes you an ass on this very subject, which is so often your own creation, Ing.

    Yup I’m just like those dumb feminazi bitches. Always making trouble with hysterics.

  74. Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay says

    , I won’t be such a pussy about it

    Get a hold of yourself. Jeezis.

  75. says

    I’m too busy weeping while watching my poor OKC Thunder get whooped by the lowly Brooklyn Nets, so I won’t be able to comment any more after this. But I did want to add just one thing. I don’t oppose black humor. Even murder jokes and rape jokes can be funny, depending on context. I typically say give comedians a wide berth. My only rule is that the darker the material is, the more I expect the comedian to do a really good job with the joke. (That’s why I never even considered defending that dumbfuck Daniel Tosh when he took heat for that stupid, tasteless rape joke a while back. Fuck that unfunny asshat. He deserved all the criticism he got.)

    That said, my problem with “Let’s kill and eat them” comments isn’t opposition to black humor. Like I said, black humor can work in the right context. But “In a post whose only ‘source’ is an unsourced right wing anti-muslim propaganda screed” is, without question, NOT the kind of context where it’s a good idea to say shit like that. I don’t think anyone wants to see FtB become one of those kinds of sites where right wing crap is reposted uncritically to a chorus of people shouting variations of “Kill the Muzzies.” This thread got a little too close to that for my taste.

  76. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @Josh

    Not a meaningful response. So do you have any criticism other than “shut up”?

  77. Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay says

    Yup I’m just like those dumb feminazi bitches. Always making trouble with hysterics.

    Let me know when you’re done. I’d never insult you with such stupid and untrue accusations. You’re nothing like that. I happen to think you’re wrong and irritating on this subject. That’s all.

  78. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    I don’t think anyone wants to see FtB become one of those kinds of sites where right wing crap is reposted uncritically to a chorus of people shouting variations of “Kill the Muzzies.”

    Oh don’t be silly that would never happen.

  79. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Let me know when you’re done. I’d never insult you with such stupid and untrue accusations. You’re nothing like that. I happen to think you’re wrong and irritating on this subject. That’s all.

    No you’re just using the same responses, ie variations on “you’re over reacting and shut up”

  80. strange gods before me ॐ says

    and let’s be honest, the accusation is transparent—accusing someone of race baiting

    Support your claim, Josh. Quote someone. Indeed, quote everyone who you are claiming is doing this. Specifically I expect you to clarify that you aren’t talking about me.

  81. Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay says

    Oh please, sgbm. If I were talking about you I’d say it without subtlety as you well know.

    Really? You’re really going to take some people talk about how dem depraved foreigners need a killing

    Citation provided.

  82. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @Josh

    How is that uncharitable reading of that? Seriously.

  83. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @SGBM

    Oh please we all know it’s me here as the designated PC Police Fag.

  84. Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay says

    Oh please we all know it’s me here as the designated PC Police Fag.

    Goddamn you Ing. I don’t care how upset you are about topics X, Y, or Z. You have no ethical right to spew that shit with the implication that I’d ever characterize you in such a grotesque way. You may utterly hate what I have to say when we disagree but it is disgusting for you to caricature my response to you that way.

    How dare you act as if I’m some reactionary who’d use those dog whistles to hurt you? How dare you? What in the world makes you think that’s a reasonable thing to say?

  85. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    Has anyone materially engaged with Josh’s point, that being that minorities or oppressed people often engage in over the top revenge fantasies about their oppressors (“die cis scum” comes to mind along with Josh’s comments about gay people)? It’s one way people can cope when they feel utterly powerless. I’m not gonna get in someone’s face and scream them down for wishing cartoonish violence against their oppressors because I’m not in the business of policing the oppressed. “You said a violent thing on the internet” takes lower priority than “a bunch of actual people are doing something actually bad in reality” for me.

    I mean, I’m gay. If I were talking to some people who told me they voted against my rights, making sure I couldn’t marry and could even be fired for my sexual orientation, they’ve committed actual violence against me. Would you honestly turn to me and chastise me instead if I said I wanted them to get eaten by sharks or something? Is that really the important point here?

  86. BinJabreel says

    Blast and bloody damn it, someone saying that selling their daughter into prostitution should be a capital crime isn’t the same as fucking screaming “kill the brown people”.

    Seriously, I’ve never seen people so fucking belligerently and caustically excoriate someone for their insensitivity, especially not when they’re talking about something *that actually fucking happens*.

    Whether or not the OP is factually accurate (and, to be fair, it sounds like something I’ve encountered wading through the seamy underbelly of Islamic theology once before), there most definitely are people selling their daughters to pay their debts.

    When you try to excuse them by saying they’re in dire straights, you ignore the fact that IT’S THE FUCKING DAUGHTERS THEY INVARIABLY CHOOSE TO SELL, because daughters are just meat to be traded and used up in most parts of the world, so advancing that argument is pretty fucking gross.

    And @strange gods, #100:

    Here’s a couple:
    “a chorus of people shouting variations of “Kill the Muzzies.” This thread got a little too close to that for my taste.”
    “gathering around and laughing about how those horrible brown people are deserving of killing.”

  87. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @RaphXephon

    Well see if we did have some people who were sold into sexual slavery revealing violent revenge fantasy that would be understandable even if it were disturbing.

    but I mean, and this may be a subtle point you missed.

    THAT’S NOT WHAT FUCKING HAPPENED SO THAT’S JUST A GODDAMN DISTRACTION

  88. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    Well see if we did have some people who were sold into sexual slavery revealing violent revenge fantasy that would be understandable even if it were disturbing.

    Iris is a woman too, she’s just not in that situation, does that mean she can’t have feelings about it in kind? If a gay Canadian man said the same thing about feeding Okie bigots to sharks in solidarity with me I wouldn’t say OMG HDU U DONT HAVE MY EXPERIENCES!!!!!!

    but I mean, and this may be a subtle point you missed.

    THAT’S NOT WHAT FUCKING HAPPENED SO THAT’S JUST A GODDAMN DISTRACTION

    Is the all-caps shouting supposed to scare me, or just prove how rightity-right you are?

  89. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    You know what? Fuck everyone here. I don’t know why I was so stupid to even try as I knew what the response would be.

  90. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    So, you shouted at and misrepresented people, and when they didn’t roll over you’re taking your ball and going home?

    What kinda SJ Warrior are you?

  91. Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay says

    Fuck you too, Ing. Be sure and never allow for the possibility that people who genuinely admire you think you can be misguided (and an asshole sometimes). Remember that it’s important to caricature them and have a rage fap about it.

  92. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    What kinda SJ Warrior are you?

    Look do you want me to shut up or not?

    Be sure and never allow for the possibility that people who genuinely admire you think you can be misguided (and an asshole sometimes).

    I seriously doubt anyone ‘admires’ me.

  93. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    Look do you want me to shut up or not?

    Last time I checked, “chill out” and “shut the fuck up” were not synonyms. You honestly seem way too pissed off about this, more than is warranted, and I seriously do not mean that in a silencing, gas-lighty kind of way.

  94. Ogvorbis: useless says

    Look do you want me to shut up or not?

    No, yours is one of many voices I admire here. Along with Josh.

    I seriously doubt anyone ‘admires’ me.

    I respectfully disagree.

  95. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    You honestly seem way too pissed off about this, more than is warranted,

    Well I’m sorry that I get annoyed when “can we think if what we’re saying has unfortunate implications” gets the usually expected response of being some PCnut. And it seems to prop up on certain topics.

  96. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    I seriously doubt anyone ‘admires’ me.

    Josh already said he did, and I’ve generally always liked your posts. I’m just perplexed by why you’re handing all of us our asses because one person had (what I think was a justifiable) little revenge joke and not all of us think that’s the end of the goddamn world.

  97. says

    I seriously doubt anyone ‘admires’ me.

    I think you and Josh are both pretty cool. And I’m surprised to see such conflict. It causes me to realize that my default assumption when I see two people I think are clueful getting into it is that there’s a misunderstanding. I wonder if that’s a sort of confirmation bias?

    I haven’t followed this thread in minute detail so I can’t say for sure but it seems like you’re mighty pissed off right now and I missed the causus belli. I’m not trying to say “shut up” – more, “wtf?” I’m not trying to minimize your upset but I certainly don’t understand what’s going on.

  98. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    Well I’m sorry that I get annoyed when “can we think if what we’re saying has unfortunate implications” gets the usually expected response of being some PCnut.

    The situation as I understand it is that a story is posted about men selling their female children into sex slavery that will inevitably result in rape, torture, and death, and a woman saw this happening to other women and said we should (or was it wouldn’t? Correct me on that if necessary.) feed them to pigs (or was it their children? I’ve seen more than one version of the joke so far here) as an angry joke, at a blog that is liberal, anti-violence, anti-Islamophobia, etc.

    So I think my answer to your question is “not many”, but if there are members of the religions and/or ethnicities who read this blog and disagree, I’d love to hear otherwise.

  99. consciousness razor says

    Would you honestly turn to me and chastise me instead if I said I wanted them to get eaten by sharks or something? Is that really the important point here?

    The fact that it’s wrong to murder people is a pretty important point to make, no matter what the situation is. It’s not okay to toss ethics out the window because of “revenge,” or because someone else did something bad. We can acknowledge that we fantasize about wanting things which are wrong, because not everything we want (or hypothetically, what we would want) is right. When someone replies to such a fantasy with something along the lines of “you shouldn’t do that,” they are not wrong about that.

  100. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    anti-Islamophobia

    One of those things we’ll have to disagree on I guess: I’ve stated why in the past.

  101. consciousness razor says

    Iris is a woman too, she’s just not in that situation, does that mean she can’t have feelings about it in kind?

    She can have feelings about it. No one can stop her or anyone from having feelings, but that is irrelevant.

  102. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    The fact that it’s wrong to murder people is a pretty important point to make

    As is the importance of oxygen. This is your hourly reminder: you need oxygen to live.

    Seriously, do you honestly believe nobody knows that?. Making a point about the silliness of revenge humor and how it’s never going to be acted out is not a dodge to get out of having to admit guilt in somehow perpetuating violence. It’s acknowledging the reality that these things will never happen and are not meant to happen.

    When someone replies to such a fantasy with something along the lines of “you shouldn’t do that,” they are not wrong about that.

    How old do you think we are? Iris would not actually feed anyone to pigs, and I wouldn’t want anyone to get eaten by sharks. I’m pretty sure we’d both be fucking horrified if it did happen, so what purpose does chastising minorities for voicing such feelings serve other than a misguided attempt to be holier-than-thou?

  103. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    blarg I’m cranky and apparently wrong

  104. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    I’m not privy to that information, but if my reputation was trashed all over the internet I don’t know how I’d react. Lastly, Islamophobia? It is a nonsense term. He doesn’t hate Muslims, but he hates Islam as I hope most if not all of us do. It is a wicked mind parasite. It is not irrational to fear such a virus. This view is hardly controversial – Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and the late Christopher Hitchens were all behind. However, I realise those names are worth fuck all around here.

    Look maybe there’s a reason I’m hyper trigger happy on this issue and annoyed when I have to respond to it.

  105. Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay says

    Look maybe there’s a reason I’m hyper trigger happy on this issue and annoyed when I have to respond to it.

    Yes. And I ask you to understand why a woman—Iris, in this instance—also has a reason for being trigger-happy. And why people who point it out aren’t your enemy and don’t deserve to be so grossly insulted or have their characters impugned.

  106. consciousness razor says

    Making a point about the silliness of revenge humor and how it’s never going to be acted out is not a dodge to get out of having to admit guilt in somehow perpetuating violence. It’s acknowledging the reality that these things will never happen and are not meant to happen.

    You think revenge is never acted out, or never in silly ways? Or is it that because it’s silly, we shouldn’t believe that specific way of doing it will happen since if they’re going to do it they’re likely to come up with a less-silly way of doing it?

    How old do you think we are?

    People don’t automatically become ethical when they reach adulthood.

    I’m pretty sure we’d both be fucking horrified if it did happen

    Even if it were someone who did really horrible things? This isn’t about whether you would feel fucking horrified, or if you would have felt like revenge was a good thing.

    so what purpose does chastising minorities for voicing such feelings serve other than a misguided attempt to be holier-than-thou?

    When did I mention holiness? Explain to me how simply discussing ethics openly — among adults, not just children, about what should be “obvious” fucking concepts to most people — is somehow a religious or dogmatic or nonsensical thing to do.

  107. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @Josh

    FFS last time this came up you accused me of minimizing.

  108. Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay says

    Oh Christ, consciousness razor. Get down off your cross and stop missing the point. Jeezis!

  109. Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay says

    Sigh. I don’t know what convo you’re referring to, Ing. Shall I wait for it to be linked and dissected so we can go further down the rabbit hole? Let me know so I can grab a drink.

  110. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    No I don’t care. Think whatever you want of me, ok?

  111. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Great everyone’s happy. Except me and Josh and everyone else.

  112. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    CR, you’re being obtuse and it’s fucking exhausting. Iris isn’t gonna feed anyone to pigs, I’m not gonna feed anyone to sharks, we’re not advocating feeding people to pigs or sharks, it’s not gonna cause anyone to be fed to pigs or sharks, and you know all that. You just apparently think it’s more important to shove moral reminders in minorities’ faces because hey, we might be oppressed but that’s no excuse to be RUDE about it.

    Explain to me how simply discussing ethics openly

    Bullshit. This isn’t about ethics, because the “ethics” involved here are so fucking transparent I could read a newspaper on an ant’s ass through it. Killing is wrong, mmmkay? I think we’re all on board with that. We don’t need constant reminders of it like we’ve left the fucking door ajar.

  113. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    I’m cranky and depressed for other reasons so I’ll probably just apologize if I went overboard for anyone.

    @Rah

    Let’s drop it it really isn’t important in the long run.

  114. consciousness razor says

    Oh Christ, consciousness razor. Get down off your cross and stop missing the point. Jeezis!

    Well, fuck, Josh, I didn’t realize I was torturing myself. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, I must be holier than something.

  115. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Everything is okay as long as you specify that it’s just humor.

  116. consciousness razor says

    Killing is wrong, mmmkay? I think we’re all on board with that. We don’t need constant reminders of it like we’ve left the fucking door ajar.

    Revenge is wrong. It isn’t a good justification. Do you want to claim no one seriously believes it is?

  117. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @SG

    Look just drop it. I really don’t know what to think and just feel guilty about causes a frakus.

  118. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    Yeah, SG, because that’s exactly what was said, you’ve represented things with faultless honesty.

    For a shitbagel.

  119. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    Revenge is wrong. It isn’t a good justification. Do you want to claim no one seriously believes it is?

    So if a homophobe is kicking my ass outside a gay bar, I shouldn’t even think about revenge? Why is that, exactly? Because otherwise I’m not sufficiently virtuous to be a victim? Wherever the fuck you’re going with this, I can guarantee with some certainty that I don’t care for it.

  120. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @SG

    I’m asking the favor of dropping it

  121. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Yeah, SG, because that’s exactly what was said, you’ve represented things with faultless honesty.

    Yes, I believe that is what was said.

    Do you want to have a personal fight with me, RahXephon? Or do you want to limit yourself to the substance here?

  122. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    SG, what was that link supposed to prove? Because I don’t see Iris saying “everything is okay as long as you specify it’s humor” in the post you linked to. At best you inferred that and I don’t think such an inference has much basis.

  123. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Ing,

    I’m asking the favor of dropping it

    What I’m willing to do is wait until I think you’ve gone to bed.

    +++++
    RahXephon, I expect an apology for the gratuitous personal insult. You honestly seem way too pissed off about this, more than is warranted.

  124. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    I’m sorry.

    Now answer the goddamn question.

  125. consciousness razor says

    So if a homophobe is kicking my ass outside a gay bar, I shouldn’t even think about revenge? Why is that, exactly?

    Of course you can think about it. Didn’t I just say that you can feel however you do feel, that no one can do anything about that? It would make no sense to tell someone they should do something they can’t do.

    Acting on it, or giving others the impression that it’s okay to act on it because you casually accept it or “joke” about it, that’s another story.

    Because otherwise I’m not sufficiently virtuous to be a victim? Wherever the fuck you’re going with this, I can guarantee with some certainty that I don’t care for it.

    Huh? Are you not familiar with the concept that revenge is wrong? You said murder is wrong, but leaving that aside, do you think revenge is generally okay?

  126. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    Not a flounce, I’m just busy because family came home and I’m hungry. Feel free to answer while I’m gone if you want.

  127. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @SG

    FFS, I don’t care if you want to continue this but don’t drag me into it.

  128. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    Okay, I saw CR answer so I’ll respond before I go eat.

    Acting on it, or giving others the impression that it’s okay to act on it because you casually accept it or “joke” about it, that’s another story.

    Revenge is wrong if we’re talking vigilante justice or something along those lines, but really, my example was poor. We’re not talking about “I’m getting my ass kicked and I want to fight back/get this person back later”. We’re talking about individuals experiencing systemic abuse that they have little to no power to change. They have no power to act on any of these things, they will never happen, and it’s irritatingly simplistic to think that joking about something equals condoning it happening for real.

    No, all this looks like from my perspective is that people who are oppressed are yet again being told that expressing anger at their oppressors is not only inappropriate, but apparently unethical as well? If that’s what you’re saying, then I don’t buy that conclusion.

  129. Anri says

    So, has anyone actually verified if this is true or not?

    Or should we wait until we’ve finished up with the interpersonal stuff here?

    Either’s fine, I’m just trying to work out priorities.

  130. consciousness razor says

    it’s irritatingly simplistic to think that joking about something equals condoning it happening for real.

    What can I say? People are often irritatingly simplistic. I don’t think you’re condoning it (not intentionally), but I think some people nevertheless do get that impression. I think that’s a bad impression to get, so there shouldn’t be such a huge backlash if someone points out the “obvious” to these irritatingly simplistic people.

    But given your responses, it’s hard to tell if I’ve been clear enough about it so that you get it and that we’re actually in agreement, so maybe it’s not all that obvious.

    No, all this looks like from my perspective is that people who are oppressed are yet again being told that expressing anger at their oppressors is not only inappropriate, but apparently unethical as well? If that’s what you’re saying, then I don’t buy that conclusion.

    Again: it’s not about “expressing anger,” or feeling anger, or thinking of angry fantasies, or whatever.

    I understand where you’re coming from with the quote above, and I agree with that. At the same time, I don’t think it’s oppressive to want people to think clearly and consistently about this. You’re missing the point if you just say “I don’t believe it’ll ever happen” or “it’s only a hypothetical,” etc. Oppressed people aren’t the only “victims” who could get revenge. It’s much more general than that, because people in general do in fact get revenge for all sorts of things, so we should try to be consistent about what that means.

  131. Cyranothe2nd says

    @ Anri–no evidence that it is true, so I’m leaning towards it being outrageously false.

  132. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    It’s much more general than that, because people in general do in fact get revenge for all sorts of things, so we should try to be consistent about what that means.

    I understand that, but I think I am being consistent. I can see the distinction between expressing anger and frustration with systemic abuses, and actually taking revenge on actual people. I’m not particularly interested in always assuming the lowest common denominator in who I’m talking to, though. If someone’s determined enough to twist whatever I say into, what, condoning shark-assisted murder, then I don’t know what to tell you. They’re a stupid fuck. What I said was not the catalyst to them doing something extremely stupid and wrong.

    Sidenote: this conversation is incredibly fucking surreal right now.

  133. evilDoug says

    After reading Taslima’s post, and the comments of waqarrizvi., it appears to me that the fatwa, if it is genuine, simply grants to a particular sect of Islam that which is standard operating procedure for other sects.
    I’m not sure I am interpreting this correctly – I’m tired and I’m cranky(er than usual). Waqarrizvi is somewhat hard to understand, partly due to language issues and partly due to the thick layer of foam over his mouth, but it seems he is saying, “Yes, temporary marriage for a quick fuck is OK, but those filthy Wahabis are just pretending to believe in it to get in on the action”.

    Once again, either Allah failed in his dictation or Mohammed failed to get things down properly, so clerics and «scholars» (those are contempt quotes) get their two bits worth in.

  134. strange gods before me ॐ says

    After reading Taslima’s post, and the comments of waqarrizvi., it appears to me that the fatwa, if it is genuine, simply grants to a particular sect of Islam that which is standard operating procedure for other sects.

    No.

    What waqarrizvi is saying is that mutah is not supposed to be used for rape — see the source Taslima linked to — and if it’s being used for rape as alleged here, then that is wrong.

  135. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    We seem to have two, or possibly three, distinct issues going here.

    1) Was the fatwa referred to in the OP actually issued by Muhammed al-Arifi? The earliest source I can trace is the Lebanese TV channel al Jadeed, on 2012/12/28, but neither there, nor anywhere else anyone has pointed to, is there any information about when, where or in what format this fatwa was issued. I’m inclined to think that when specific accusations of vile behaviour are made against a named individual, even if that individual is a Wahhabi “scholar”, we ought to take some care that they are actually likely to be true, rather than (as I suspect may be the case), distortions or outright falsehoods resulting from the hatred between Shia and Wahhabi Muslims, and specifically from the propaganda component of the Syrian civil war. For one thing (but not only) because the target of the accusations, if they are false, may actually have legal recourse. I note that this accusation has been picked up by the Iranian theocracy’s TV channel, by the far right evangelical Christian Clarion Fund, and by FtB bloggers – all, apparently, without any firm evidence that it’s actually, you know, true. So if it is false, it’s been an extremely successful propaganda initiative. Even if it does turn out to be true, should it have been repeated without any serious attempt to check?
    2) An accusation that Osama bin Laden was a rapist, kidnapper and all-round hypocrite, with awful BO. Raises some of the same issues about how careful we need to be about the truth where people we despise are concerned, but since bin Laden is both dead, and by his own admission a mass-murderer, perhaps less significantly, apart from the general concern with distinguishing truth from propaganda which we all share (or at least, should share).
    3) Jokes about murdering people and feeding them to pigs, when those people (a) have done something terrible – specifically, selling their daughters into prostitution and slavery and (b) are themselves on the wrong end of two kinds of privilege most of us share (being white, being reasonably well-off), and another which all of us share (living in rich societies, even if we are poor ourselves). I note that, contrary to what you might think from the last half of the thread, it was birgerjohansson@38 who first joked about eating such people (as “soylent green”), and Rich Woods@41 who first joked about feeding them to pigs. Both men, IIRC. Wes, Ing, myself, arids, SGBM all felt we should consider the implications of making such revenge-fantasy jokes – none of us said, or implied, or thought, that anyone here actually wanted to do these things. From my point of view, part of that issue is that few if any of us have ever been in the kind of desperate situation which might lead even a basically decent person to do such terrible things to those even further down the kyriarchy; and that thinking about how to change the capitalist world-system so that societies where such horrors are routine have a better chance to stop them, would be more productive than revenge-fantasies aimed at individuals considerable further down than we are.

  136. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    Oh and:
    4) I regret that this episode has once again proven the truth of the accusation that Pharyngula is simply an echo-chamber for PZ’s views.

  137. sambarge says

    I doubt the fatwa was issued/spoken/whatever you do with a fatwa, only because I doubt anyone needs an excuse to rape.

  138. WharGarbl says

    @Nick Gotts
    #163

    Oh and:
    4) I regret that this episode has once again proven the truth of the accusation that Pharyngula is simply an echo-chamber for PZ’s views.

    You are aware that, as early as post #10, there’s already doubt about validity of the story. Furthermore, most subsequent posts as far as I know merely operates on the basic assumption of “Okay, I hope it’s not true, but if it is…”
    So… not really an echo chamber (unless you count 10 posts as being echo-chambery).

  139. What a Maroon, el papa ateo says

    @167,

    It’s generally considered good practice to change the batteries in your sarcasm detector every New Year’s Day.

  140. says

    Ooops. I seem to have given the wrong facebook adress. My apologies.

    The sheik has denied this yesterday:

    The new television of Bashar, ….about marriage almnakhah for the Mujahideen to Syria, lied.

    Correct linky.

    (IMHO, al-Arifi does not seem much different than your run_of_the_mill ‘Merkin goddist.)

  141. says

    @ What a Maroon

    It’s generally considered good practice to change the batteries in your sarcasm detector every New Year’s Day.

    While others here could change the wheels on their hobby horses round about now too… :)

    @ Nick Gotts

    4) I regret that this episode has once again proven the truth of the accusation that Pharyngula is simply an echo-chamber for PZ’s views.


    Au Contraire!

    Fortunately, Pharyngula is so much more than only Professor Poopyhead, it would seem.

  142. Rawnaeris, FREEZE PEACHES says

    *shuffles feet* Welp, I swallowed that one hook, line and sinker. Looks like I need to check my xtian-upbringing & white privilege pretty seriously. Anyone have a favorite website that covers the basics of Islam without being phobic?

  143. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    WharGarbl@167,

    Sorry, I really thought a “/sarcasm” tag wasn’t necessary @163, given what I’d just written @162. But I suppose I can now expect to be quoted and feted by slymepitters as exposing the Pharyngulite echo-chamber!

  144. Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining says

    Nick Gotts:

    But I suppose I can now expect to be quoted and feted by slymepitters as exposing the Pharyngulite echo-chamber!

    Do you really think a sarcasm tag would have helped?

  145. WharGarbl says

    @Nick Gotts
    #174
    My apology then. My grasp on nuances in English language is mediocre at best (especially on sarcasm, always have difficulty picking one out unless blatantly obvious).

  146. Ogvorbis: useless says

    Do you really think a sarcasm tag would have helped?

    Why? You don’t think they would cherry pick or selectively edit, do you?

  147. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    Al-Afiri does appear to promulgate a thoroughly repulsive ideology. That perhaps makes it even more regrettable that PZ – and Taslima Nazreen – repeated this apparently bogus story, drawn from very dodgy sources, without taking the trouble to check it, as there are plenty of legitimate grounds to attack him and his fellow Wahhabi “scholars”. Let’s hope al-Afiri’s too busy to pursue those who have repeated the story online through the courts, unlike a British Tory ex-politician who was recently – and without any doubt at all, falsely – accused of child sex abuse.

  148. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Looking back while I think I had an inkling of a point I was too ragey and over zealous so I want to appologize in general and to Josh specifically for being irrational.

    Josh if you want I think I can explain where I’m comming from and why it’s frustrating for me and where our disconnect is calmly

  149. says

    Oooookay. I’ve reread the OP and the thread. First, I regret my part in causing such cacophony in the otherwise harmonious echo chamber that is Pharyngula. (That was a joke. And one of the lessons I’m taking from all of this is that I probably shouldn’t quit my day job to give comedy writing a go.)

    I just want to make a few observations.

    A victim of child sexual abuse myself, I think I may have instantly hooked into the child rape aspect of birgerjohansson’s comment @38, to the point where my own emotional reaction blinded me to the aspects of privilege and kyriarchy to which I am ordinarily more sensitive. From my perspective last night, what followed seemed to me to be a surreal defense of child rape enablers being shielded from jokes based on cannibalistic revenge fantasies. My buttons were pressed, hard, and concerns about unjust socioeconomic systems, racism, oppression of religious minorities, etc. just did not register with me — or if they did they seemed distant and abstract in light of the only aspect of my target that mattered to me: child rape enabler.

    I apologize for not recognizing these privilege issues. Last night, the more I attempted to parse exactly what had people so enraged, the more lost — and stung — I felt. The responses seemed overwhelmingly heavy on nastiness and snark and light on responsive content. In the cold light of day some of it still reads that way to me, although less so: there were indeed some helpful answers provided to me, e.g. by Nick Gotts. I just wasn’t capable of getting this last night, and I’m sorry.

    The hints and accusations of Islamaphobia (“Moooslemterrists”) were especially mystifying to me considering the two links I provided with respect to child prostitution were about Cambodia and Thailand, both overwhelmingly Buddhist countries. I recognize now that the context mattered, i.e., the subject of PZ’s post (Islamic fatwas), so I can see how others could read me as deliberately or carelessly aiming in that direction. (Thanks to Wes @95 for clarifying this, a comment I did not see until today.)

    consciousness razor is absolutely right, of course, that revenge is never a good justification. It’s an all too human and destructive one, and as such it certainly does not need to be encouraged in any fashion. I cannot promise that I will never indulge in it again, but I can and will strive toward better forms of mockery, and toward limiting potential splash damage in my blind spots.

    This is what jumps out at me today, anyway. And I meant it when I said that I appreciate everyone’s thoughts.

    Two final comments:

    chigau (違う) @74:

    irisvanderpluym
    Are you truly happy commenting here?

    Yes. Deliriously and unreservedly.

    Ing @112:

    I seriously doubt anyone ‘admires’ me.

    FWIW I do. I just didn’t understand you.

  150. lorn says

    Won’t someone think of the poor, suffering jihadis?

    I propose we collect money so we can buy a Fleshlight and Hitachi Magic Wand for each squad of fighter so they can relieve their own sexual tensions and not have to depend on, and risk soiling themselves with, women. Think of it as Toys For (hairy and heavily armed) Tots.

  151. trianglethief says

    Huh, my comment went through. They almost never do (guess I’ve moved locations now so maybe that’s why? WE SHALL SEE) so I just dumped the link without commentary which now feels pretty rude.

    I’ve had a lot of mixed feelings about this particular incident, and about similar shit I’ve seen go down here over the years. I guess mostly I hope that everyone is okay. That sounds a bit feeble to my eyes because expressing sympathy and concern unsolicited always makes me feel like a gigantic buttface, but I know I’m not the only one who finds this shit really important and really hard.

  152. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    irisvanderpluym,

    Thanks, and kudos, for that.

    I’d have been more careful if I’d realized your buttons were being pressed, so I guess the lesson for me is to remember that people may have buttons that aren’t apparent.

  153. says

    Thanks Nick. I didn’t realize that I was reacting to my buttons being pressed, so neither you nor anyone else could possibly have known it. Unfortunately, that’s the nature of such buttons. All I can do is recognize it (however late), apologize for misunderstanding, move on and try to do better.

  154. says

    (Thanks to Wes @95 for clarifying this, a comment I did not see until today.)

    You’re welcome. Always happy to say something useful. :D Though I’m still pissed off that the Thunder lost. >:-(

  155. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

    I’m surprised and pretty disappointed that Iris felt she had to apologize, especially given that she’s a victim as well. Iris, I don’t think you have anything to apologize for; I think your emotional reaction is totally justified and valid. If anyone here thinks that protecting child rape enablers from cannibalistic revenge fantasies is anywhere near as important as, I dunno, stopping child rape and punishing its enablers, then in the words of Laura Roslin, you’ve lost perspective. Take off the fucking Tumblr SJ glasses and look at what you’ve done: you’ve bullied a victim into apologizing for a perfectly natural emotional reaction she had because OOH VIOLENT RHETORIC. That’s bullshit, and it’s lazy armchair activism. You’re not healing the world by bullying victims here because they’re not the problem.

  156. Happiestsadist, opener of the Crack of Doom says

    I was going to stay out of this for fear of being dogpiled for being a bad victim, but I heartily cosign everything RahXephon said up there. What happened in this thread was fucking shameful finger-wagging.

  157. says

    RahXephon & Happiestsadist: Thanks. I apologized specifically for missing something important that others were trying to point out to me (some more constructively than others, to be sure). Being a survivor myself does not grant me a pass to ignore other kinds of injustice. It’s important to me to assess my own failings — irrespective of what other people may have done — so I can learn to do better for everyone’s sake, but more importantly to give myself a measure of peace and forgiveness and move on.

    I’m not disagreeing with your take on what went down here, and honestly I still feel a bit stung by it. I just want to emphasize that in owning my part of it, I am not taking responsibility for anyone else’s behavior.

    Peace.

  158. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @iris

    I’m sorry for doging you and being an ass.

    Imo the atheist culture is very racist against certain groups and engages in a lot of dehumanizing language that troubles me. Since some of these groups are ones I’d personally be biased against I try to balance that by trying to be hyper aware of what sounds colonialist or imperialist or looking Down on the more troubled parts of the world. I think this post shows. Why this is a better idea than not. I don’t think PZ is explicitly bigoted but he does grow some things less critically than he should as expected. Sorry for digging in andaybe I was wrong but all I personally wanted was to point that out. I don’t like being accused of excusing or sympathising with assholes when I do it which was what got me mad at josh.

  159. Rawnaeris, FREEZE PEACHES says

    irisvanderpluym and Ing, kudos for the calmer responses and apologies as appropriate.
     
    Ing, I want to add that I’m one of the people who admires your writing here.

  160. says

    @Ing –

    Thanks.

    Imo the atheist culture is very racist against certain groups and engages in a lot of dehumanizing language that troubles me.

    It troubles me too, which is why I’m especially troubled that I didn’t even see it. I just got narrowly focused on “child rape enabler” and completely lost all other perspectives.

    Fucken triggers, how do they work? (No seriously, I really wish I knew the answer to that.)

    Hugz all around, if wanted. I feel much better now.

  161. Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay says

    Ing:

    I don’t like being accused of excusing or sympathising with assholes when I do it which was what got me mad at josh.

    My jaw is literally on the floor. You went on a rant wherein you all but accused me of calling you a hysterical PC Police Fag, and you’re still doing it?

    I don’t trust you to read what I say. I told you specifically what I was objecting to, and I loudly denied the things you were saying that I was saying, and. . here we are.

    Disillusioned and keeping my back up from now on.

  162. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    My comment got eated.

    JOsh I’m sorry for reading you that way it was uncharitable and I was being too angry. I’m not trying to fight it more I do actually feel really bad for what I said to you and am trying to give a real apology.

  163. kingeofdremes says

    PZ,
    Thank you for correcting this post (though I’d have preferred its mention as a regular entry). Do you plan on doing the same for “Egypt shows respect for the dead”?