Some apologists for war try to casually dismiss the unwelcome fact that it results in the deaths of mostly innocent civilians with clichés like ‘war is hell’, acting as if they are themselves veterans of wars who have seen the grimness up close and are thus can be excused for taking a hardened view. In actual reality, I have noticed that many of the people nowadays who say such things are those who have never seen war and death up close and their macho posturing is just that, posturing. This series of stills from the old TV show M*A*S*H better captures the reality of war.
We see the effects of war on civilians played out in the most recent events in Gaza, a conflict in which the death toll has topped 800, mostly civilians. A UN-operated school compound that people had fled to to escape Israeli bombardment was itself hit, resulting in deaths and injuries to many people including, inevitably, children. The link has a disturbing video of the aftermath of the shelling. The UNRWA spokesperson said that they had given the Israeli Defense Forces the coordinates of their school and had asked for safe passage for the people sheltering there but instead of a reply they got missiles.
According to the UN, more than 118,000 people are now sheltering in UN schools and people are running out of food.
It is the fourth time in as many days that a UN facility has been hit.
Correspondents say pools of blood lay on the ground in the courtyard of the school in Beit Hanoun, and there was a large scorch mark where it appeared a shell had hit.
…The UN’s Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (Ocha) says a 3km (1.9 mile) wide strip, encompassing 44% of Gaza, has been designated as a no-go zone by the Israeli military.
Remember that Gaza is essentially a prison camp that has the size and population density of Philadelphia. To declare almost half of it as a no-go zone means that you have effectively declared war on the civilian population since there is no way that so many people in those areas can escape.
The Guardian has more on the bombing of the UN school.
International scrutiny of Israel’s assault on the Gaza Strip intensified on Thursday when more than 15 Palestinians were killed and 200 injured in a strike on a UN school in northern Gaza crowded with hundreds of displaced civilians.
Most of the injured were women and children. Among the dead was a mother and her one-year-old baby. UN staff had been attempting to organise the school’s evacuation when the attack took place.
Ban Ki-moon, secretary general of the UN, condemned the attack, which came hours after the agency had warned that Israel’s actions in the Palestinian enclave could constitute war crimes. “Today’s attack underscores the imperative for the killing to stop and to stop now,” Ban said.
The Israeli military first claimed, in a text sent to journalists, that the school could have been hit by Hamas missiles that fell short. Later, a series of tweets from the Israel Defence Forces appeared to confirm the deaths were the result of an Israeli strike.
…Hours after the attack, a trail of bloody footprints could be seen crossing a deserted playground littered with abandoned possessions. There were pools of blood both inside and outside the school building; more blood splashed over wooden school desks.
…Thursday’s assault on the school – one of the grimmest incidents of the war – occurred at about 2.50pm as the playground was crowded with families waiting to be ferried to safety. According to survivors, one shell landed in the schoolyard followed by several more rounds that hit the upper stories of the building.
Most of the wounded were moved initially to a local hospital where terrified women and children clung to each other, waiting for news of relatives. A shell exploded about 50 metres from the hospital building as they waited.
The Guardian also has video of heartbreaking scenes in the hospital in the aftermath of the bombing.
Meanwhile reports are merging through social media of yet another possible massacre in Khuza’a, a town close to the Israeli border, with gruesome eye-witness reports from people on the scene.
The Palestinian Center for Human Rights has been monitoring reports of casualties and destruction and says that as of yesterday, “Since the Beginning of the Israeli Offensive on Gaza: 743 Palestinians Killed, of Whom 605 Are Civilians, Including 176 Children and 96 Women, and 3,946 Others Wounded, Mostly Civilians, Including 1,129 Children and 804 Women; 524 Houses Targeted and Destroyed and Hundreds of Others Extensively Damaged; Thousands of Palestinian Civilians Forcibly Displaced”.
War is not hell. It is a lot worse.
But Hamas are nasty, and more people are being killed in Syria, so killing civilians in Gaza is not only justifiable, but meritorious.
/Mark Regev,StevoR,colnago80…
It’s too bad the UN doesn’t ‘reserve the right to protect its people’, and target Israeli command posts and missile installations. Netanyahu would understand.
@ 1. Nick Gotts : I have NEVER claimed killing civilians is meritorious, liar.
I have always said that innocent casualties are wrong and to be avoided as much as possible.
You owe me an apology for that -- whether or not you have the decency to offer one. Guess you also owe Mark Regev and Colnago80 an apology too although one has never commented here and the other no longer seems to do so.
BTW. Apparently the UN school was hit by Hamas rockets that fell short and landed in Gaza instead of their intended target -- not the first time that’s happened.
War is horrific and undesirable and yet even in war there are usually considered to be some rules which Hamas keep on breaking such as :
Source : http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-25/falkenstein-hamas-makes-civilian-casualties-a-tragic-certainty/5624470
What part of the above exactly do the supposedly intelligent good thinkers and ethicists here FAIL to understand exactly?
How can you NOT read and follow the reality here and accept that while war is awful Hamas are behaving less ethically and deserve less support and sympathy than Israel?
Nick Gotts? Mano Singham? Anyone?
@1. Nick Gotts : “..more people are being killed in Syria ..”
Do you think that’s true or false?
If the answer is true, (hint, it is in factual terms -- which may or may not be what you think!) why do you think that hasn’t gotten as much media coverage and attention paid to it especially here as the latest Hamas attacks on Israel and Israel’s resultant defensive measures to stop the Hamas rockets and attacks from continuing?
Not only are more people being killed in Syria and parts of Iraq but apparently -- although disputed -- it seems and has been reported from believable UN sources that ISIS Jihadists want to have all the women there genitally mutilated as well :
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-25/militants-order-female-genital-mutilation-in-iraq/5622826
Plus unlike in Gaza where Israel has stated it won’t let the Gazans starve more people in South Sudan are actually starving to death or under imminent threat of starvation -50,000 children alone -- according to the UN.
(Source : ‘Senseless starvation in South Sudan’ Martin Cuddihy reported this story on Saturday, July 19, 2014 07:36:00 on Correspondents Report’ ABC news online.)
Now, let me be quite clear -- this does NOT justify anything in terms of the latest Hamas -- Israel war currently raging.
But it does raises other questions of priorities and why one conflict and situation gets so much as attention whilst others do NOT -- especially when the death toll those others is so much higher and the situation so much grimmer and longer standing. So why do you think this is and does it really seem right’and not a little ‘off’ to y’all?
Are the people in Syria-Iraq (or what’s left of it), South Sudan and elsewhere really so much less worthy of note and seemingly care than Hamas and the people it has been oppressing since Hamas took in its bloody coup against Fatah in Gaza?
Anybody? Nick Gotts? Mano Singham?
@2. Rob Grigjanis : “It’s too bad the UN doesn’t ‘reserve the right to protect its people’, and target Israeli command posts and missile installations. Netanyahu would understand.”
I’m sure Netanyahu would appreciate and welcome the UN unleashing its formidable might against Hamas seeing as it appears it was Hamas rockets not Israeli fire that was responsible for what happened there! it would make a nice change for the UN to blame the right people and take the right action speedily for once.
From the Guardian article quoted in the post:
“The Israeli military first claimed, in a text sent to journalists, that the school could have been hit by Hamas missiles that fell short. Later, a series of tweets from the Israel Defence Forces appeared to confirm the deaths were the result of an Israeli strike.”
StevoR @5: Do try and keep up. From the Guardian article Mano quotes;
Apparently your attention doesn’t go far beyond Israeli military press releases.
@5 SteveR -- not only is Iarael arguably committing war crimes, apparently their diplomatic corps is comprised of a bunch of children, bent on insulting other nations internationally. Well played, Israel, well played…. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/25/israel-brings-up-brazils-world-cup-humiliation-and-calls-the-country-a-diplomatic-dwarf/
@5 SteveR -- From Democracy Now today: “But overall, overall, there is a disease in my country, and the disease is spreading very fast, and it’s called fascism and racism. Fascism and racism is now the biggest threat of the Jewish people in the Middle East. And I can just cry and shout and ask everyone that hear us now to join the BDS movement, to join the boycott, divestment and sanction movement, and to try to put enormous pressure on your leaders, wherever they are, that they, in turn, will help us here stop this massacre, stop this ongoing slaughter of innocent people. I have friends in Gaza now that yesterday called and told us that their house in Shejaiya was leveled. Now the only thing they have is the cellphone, and a family of nine people are hiding in the Shifa Hospital. This is a war crime. This is an ongoing slaughter of innocent people. And that’s the discussion.” http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/24/amidst_brutal_operation_in_our_name Israeli journalist talking about fascism and racism on the rise in Israel. Look around the US, by the way. The extreme right wing is on the move here too. “Enlightened” societies? i don’t think so …. and these are the people you’re defending. Massacring civilians with complete impunity backed by the US.
I normally don’t read the sociopaths’ comments, but a lie from one was caught in my peripheral vision while reading a normal person’s comment.
The first link below is an earlier post from MS’s blog, his own comment #15:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2014/05/05/the-impossible-goal-of-a-risk-free-society/
From Interview magazine, excerpts from an interview with Dr. Martha Stout, former Harvard Medical School instructor, and author of “The Sociopath Next Door”.
Could I ask Mano Singham to consider a 500 character limit on posts to prevent certain posters’ verbal diarrhoea? And perhaps a limit on the number of posts per person in each thread?
@ StevoR
Fuck off, pissant salonfascist.
while war is awful Hamas are behaving less ethically and deserve less support and sympathy than Israel?
Here’s an argument:
-- Israel is militarily vastly more powerful than Hamas
-- When a superior power uses force against an inferior power, it is acting less morally because it should be able to negotiate from a position of strength without resorting to violence
Here’s another:
-- Hamas is acting unethically by attacking Israeli civilians
-- Israel is acting unethically by attacking Gazan civilians
-- Regardless of who started it, Israel has killed vastly more Gazan civilians than Hamas killed Israeli civilians
-- Israel deserves more criticism for killing 600+ noncombatants, compared to the 5 or so Hamas has killed
And, to this one: Are the people in Syria-Iraq (or what’s left of it), South Sudan and elsewhere really so much less worthy of note
-- Since the US supports and arms Israel, Americans are rightly more concerned with what Israel is doing than with what Syria (which the US does not arm or support) is doing. The US does not support and arm ISIS, either, therefore US taxpayers are not supporting their actions, either.
-- US citizens should be concerned when they see US-made Paladin M-109s lobbing shells into any city
-- US citizens should be concerned when they see US-made F-16 dropping bombs on any city
-- US citizens should be concerned when they see US-made M119 armored personnel carriers loaded with troops going to attack any city
Could I ask Mano Singham to consider a 500 character limit on posts to prevent certain posters’ verbal diarrhoea? And perhaps a limit on the number of posts per person in each thread?
I’d ask, rather, why Mano supports fascists posting on his blog. Would he support KKK or other racists?
Why are we being so patient with Zionist fascists when we probably wouldn’t be as patient with KKK or Stormfronters?
Hamas has used the “human shield” tactic in previous escalations and stands condemned by the international community for its clear violation of humanitarian law.
I’ve explained this one, as well.
Human shields are an affirmative defense. It’s a violation of humanitarian law to kill noncombatants. ICC says, quite specifically, that all efforts should be taken to avoid killing noncombatants. If one is charged with killing noncombatants, an affirmative defense would be “yes, I killed noncombatants, but that was because they were being used as human shields.” In such an affirmative defense, we now have two guilty parties, instead of one: the killer of noncombatants, and the person who used the human shields.
So, defending Israel on the basis that there are human shields in use (assuming we believe that the UN school was a “human shield” for example) is, in effect, saying “Israel is wrong, but so is Hamas”
To which we say, “no shit?”
Now, since you’re a fan if international humanitarian law, as I am, consider another thing that is illegal under IHL, namely: reprisals.
Oh, so, if someone shoots a rocket at you, you’re not allowed to bomb the fuck out of their neighborhood? Who’d’a thunk?
Proportionality (3) does not mean killing 600 in reprisal for 2.
Israel is not declaring it is engaging in reprisals, however, in order to maintain the illusion that it is not able to negotiate.
See:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/07/25/4254538/gaza-officials-accuse-israel-of.html
PARIS — Top Palestinian officials have accused Israel of war crimes in Gaza, filing a complaint Friday to the International Criminal Court in The Hague.
Oddly, every effort is made by the US and Israel to prevent Palestinians from having access to the UN or the ICC. It’s as if it’s Israel that doesn’t want to negotiate, or something.
Marcus Ranum (#15) --
I suggested 3 x 500 because MS himself says he wants to avoid banning people, to only do it in extreme cases. 3 x 500 won’t hurt those who are intelligent and can be cojent and succint. It also prevents trolls from posting 10 to 20 times in a single thread.
Oh, I forgot to emphasize something really important in the IHL rules:
permitted categories of persons
That’s: combatants.
Noncombatants are not permitted targets for reprisals.
If Israel had 10 captured Hamas fighters and shot one for each Israeli civilian that was killed, that would be reprisal. It’d still be very, very, very arguable whether that would be a war crime. During WWII some reprisals (such as the shooting of captured combatants after the assassination of Reynard Heydrich) (and good riddance to him!) were still considered war crimes worth a march to the hangman.
From the same Democracy Now article http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/24/amidst_brutal_operation_in_our_name “And I think that if I have to give one allegory to this whole thing …. I would imagine it as gang rape. And forgive me for using this hard language, but when you have a group of people raping someone, and this person that is being raped starting to scratch, the first thing you want to do in order to stop the scratches is to stop the rape. And what Israel, official Israel, is trying to do is to continue the rape and deal with the scratches. And I say, stop the rape, stop the occupation, stop the apartheid, stop this inhumane ghettoization of Palestinians, and then—then—we can start talking, and we can reach peace agreements and all these beautiful words that now don’t mean anything for us.” — YONATAN SHAPIRA
@Steve R
You may not have said those exact words but you imply it every time you write one of your horrible war happy posts.It’s obvious to anyone that has a smidgen of humanity that Israel* are deliberately targeting civilians. It’s getting so bad I’m starting to wonder if Israel* are testing the international community to see how far they can go before they get any real condemnation. Ok I’m being a bit sarcastic there but their attitude does seem to be ‘ we got slight criticism for this,well you ain’t seen nothing yet’.
*Please note that by Israel I mean the government and their supporters.There do seem to be plenty of people within Israel who are condemning their actions.
#1 Nick Gotts:
#3 StevoR:
I notice you don’t bother defending the charge that you think killing civilians is justified; you only denied that it was meritorious.
So. War Crimes Apologist StevoR agrees with part of Nick Gotts assessment of him, that killins civilians is at least justifiable.
@ 2 Rob Grigjanis
Nah, don’t do that. I know you’re being sarcastic but you’re just playing into the narrative that critics of Israel want “more dead Jews”.
@ 3 StevoR
Off topic, but it amuses me that StevoR includes lines like this as though his “arguments” aren’t thoroughly demolished every time he brings them up.
@ 12 Marcus Ranum
Yes, does StevoR not think there would be outrage if the US were funding ISIS?
And you didn’t even mention the media whitewash of Israel. Mano doesn’t need to do blog posts debunking the idea that ISIS are the good guys. The same is not true with respect to Israel. We need people to speak the truth in the face of media bias, and Mano is doing a good job.
Silentbob @20:
Yeah, I’ll do that. I don’t care what narrative it plays into. What’s good for the goose, etc. Also; ways to recognize hyperbole:
#1: Absurdity. Anyone who thinks the UN has the ability or the will to respond militarily to any provocation must be a recent arrival to this planet.
Israel doesn’t give a shit about Palestinian children. There’s your fucking narrative.