The day that we forget Carl Sagan and his legacy is the day that society will lose everything of value to fanaticism and ignorance. The world needs more people like him.
ddrsays
That has always been my favorite segment of Cosmos. Where could we have been today if radical chritians had not burned all the knowledge?
Everything I am today, everything I accept when it comes to the physical world and the methods I use to evaluate the same….are a result of this wonderful man.
My viewing of the ‘Cosmos’ series when it was first run when I was in junior high school was a revelation and a revolution in my mind.
As much as my parents, Carl is responsible for who I am eternally grateful to him.
Robert
Leominster, MA
USA
Stephensays
What an amazing video. I’m sorry to say I haven’t seen much of Cosmos, but I’ve been a fan of Sagan for a long time.
I had no idea that over 100 of Sophocles’ plays were kept at Alexandria. Since I’m an English major, that just makes its destruction all the more horrible (the science was cool, too, I guess :P). His acknowledgment of the value of the literature in Alexandria alongside that of the science is one of the things that makes Sagan a truly great scholar. Some scientists tend to be dismissive of the humanities (though I know you’re not like that, PZ, since I’ve seen you say plenty of positive things about the arts in the past).
Slackssays
Sagan is probably the person I admire the most. I read his book The Demon Haunted world when I was a teenager and it crystallized for me how important rational thought and a skeptical outlook were. He had such an ability to elicit wonder while conveying science and skepticism – two things that aren’t always equated with wonder or enjoyment.
Laurasays
There are two words I have always wanted to say to Carl Sagan, but sadly never got the chance. So I will say them to you instead, PZ: Thank you.
Much like Robert in #7 above, I watched Cosmos as a small child, home sick from school for several weeks in a row. He made me want to be a scientist, perhaps a physicist. It wasn’t until junior high that I finally realized that math is not my strongest subject. (A vast understatement if there ever were one.) I was devastated. I continued to devour all of Sagan’s works, but with a lot of melancholy, knowing it wasn’t to be my life’s path.
Then when I was 16 or so, my high school history teacher handed me a copy of Contact. I found it so profoundly moving that I realized what I really wanted to be, what I could realistically be, was a writer. So weirdly enough, Sagan is directly responsible for leading me away from a scientific career rather than into one. (Well, Sagan, Shakespeare, that high school history teacher, and one fantastic senior English teacher.)
I always wanted to write him a letter, but I never got the chance. So thank you for posting this, PZ. It’s a moving blast from the past, and also a grave reminder.
I just put Cosmos in my wish list on Amazon. Thanks, Dr. Myers.
Junesays
Lest you think it is not happening today, our society is spending millions to create ‘museums’ of our own, where we actively oppose and ridicule science, and fervently ‘document’ absurd creation myths for future generations.
Ann Rosesays
“This guy” opened the world of science and historical inquiry to me when I was wee. Though part of me is skeptical of his support for SETI, another part says, “Well, at least he was expanding the range of inquiry and continuing to ask questions, rather than giving up and shutting down.” Dr. Sagan, your spirit of “what else could we discover?” is sorely missed.
Very powerful. I am in awe. It contains two powerful warnings. One against the forces of ignorance and the other against hording knowledge. I to am left to wonder how much further our society would have advanced if the scientists there had shared what they learned and reasoned with the populous. But in a way I can’t blame them for not. The idea that knowledge was for a privileged few existed for centuries before and after the Library. Even some of the Founding Fathers of our country were cautious about giving everyone the right to vote and initially had it for a select portion of the citizens (non-slave males). Even today being intelligent and learned can get you called an elitist, a term used to separate you from “normal” people. I only hope we can learn from these failures from the past.
Olliesays
I couldn’t help but think while watching this that during the invasion of Iraq, the US military didn’t send even one soldier to protect the Iraqi National Museum.
ddrsays
The thing about SETI is, maybe there will be a signal someday and maybe there will never be one. But like everything else, you don’t know what is there until you look. I support SETI knowing that we may never hear a thing. Because investigating things expands our knowledge even if we don’t find what we want to find.
Carliesays
*sob*
Both for the loss of Sagan and the state of society today.
This brought tears to my eyes, I have always admired Carl Sagan and was a big fan of Cosmos in the ’80’s.
It’s possible his measured tones and relentless logic may have inoculated me against the worst of fundamentalism, and laid a foundation for the big life change 25 years later. Thanks Carl:-)
It filled me with great sadness that people can so easily discard centuries of knowledge without any regard for it’s value. It’s like the Taliban blowing up those ancient Buddha statues, just no regard for the significance of preserving culture and not realising that it is part of our identity as a species and as a society.
It’s scary to think that it is so easy to destroy all the progress we’ve made as a society. All it takes is the wrong people to get into power and BAM! everything we’ve accomplished in the last 500 years could be lost. To me the saving grace is that we live in an age of relative scientific rationalism so at least in western cultures our understanding of the universe will be preserved as long as there are those who wish to preserve it. And with the prosperity and ease of access to said information we may have a system which finally can barricade the doors from fundamentalism.
half_arsedsays
Awesome video, read a bit of Carl Sagan but never seen him speak. One question arises, why does he sound so much like Agent Smith from the matrix? Did the actor playing Smith take some of his vocal mannerisms for reasons best known to himself?
Andy Csays
Carl Sagan. What a legend.
To anyone who does not own Cosmos… why not??
Slackssays
#22
haha! You are right, and you reminded me of this video I saw a while ago, The Matrix vs. Carl Sagan
Holbachsays
Ah Carl; I wish he was still with us to help us fight the insane hordes who want to finish off what they started in great Alexandria. Did you notice the octopus on the wall in the closing shot? We still have them!
Like many others here, I was always a big fan of ‘this guy’.
I was lucky enough to meet him in person a couple of times, and he was always very down to earth and willing to talk with anyone (even me, a lowly undergrad working my way through school at the time).
I have a signed copy of Contact at home. =)
ildisays
There will be a Cosmos marathon starting at 10 am on June 22nd on the Science Channel.
Dennis Nsays
Makes you wonder just how much knowledge has been lost over time…
Joshsays
It’s like the Taliban blowing up those ancient Buddha statues, just no regard for the significance of preserving culture and not realising that it is part of our identity as a species and as a society.
This is the kind of shit that happens when groups of people start believing they’re “right” and I’d wager that it sets humanity back more often than it advances it. There is an aspect of science that appears to be pretty true, even though it isn’t talked about all that much nor probably considered by individuals near enough: whenever you start becoming convinced that you’re right, you’re probably fucked up. It benefits science when we make an effort to consciously recalibrate our situational awareness. I suspect it would benefit society greatly if groups of people would try to be less myopic as well. Though that seems to go against the philosophy of forming the group in the first place. Go figure…
Stuck behind an industrial size server/firewall, I’m unable to view videos. Is there a transcript of this somewhere? It would make a great read over lunch.
I do miss him. Cosmos was awesome, even translated in french, Contact and Pale Blue Dot are 2 very important books and mental images for me.
Vidarsays
I never saw ‘cosmos’. My parents were religious fundamentalists, and instilled in me a distaste for science, that I have been able to shrug off only fairly recently. I’m currently devouring ‘the demon-haunted world’. We need more people like “this guy”, and they need to make more of these shows.
The discovery-channel is the most science-oriented channel on my tv, and I almost never see stuff like this, and far too many bike-building reality shows, and pimp-my-ride-ripoffs in between the UFO-conspiracy junk.
DavidRsays
Anyone interested in seeing Northern Ireland in a period of relative calm should get a move on.
The goony-birds are in control here in the form of a right-wing fundamentalist ruling party.
The First Minister’s wife thinks gays are an aboination but they can be cured if they get a good shrink (she’s serious here folks).
At local Government level they are trying to implement ID education into middle-schools. Members of your own dear Disc. Inst. smell fresh meat and have visited these shores recently.
Carl Sagan would be burned at the stake, and as for PZ … it’s too horrible!!
Jason Dicksays
Brought tears to my eyes. This is the second time I’ve seen this clip, and the first time I didn’t notice this subtext:
“Hey, scientists! This is why I’m doing this series! Get your noses out of your research for one second and help me!”
zaardvarksays
Think about how close to calculus they came, 2200 years ago…
Bodachsays
I’m sure Carl would be pleased that our old friend, habeas corpus, has just been released from an unknown location and returned to the land of the somewhat free by a 5 to 4 ruling by the Supremes.
Muffinsays
Yes, nice video.
Why do people keep glorifying Shakespeare so much, though? Yes, he was a good playwright, but I myself at least fail to see why he’s so idolised, and I also fail to see why he seems to be the only playwright – or, in fact, historical author *ever* mentioned in contexts such as this.
cosays
I never saw “Cosmos” when growing up, but was introduced to Sagan through “The Dragons of Eden”.
I did see James Burke’s “The Day the Universe Changed” on PBS — the first program I was allowed to stay up late and watch. I am now discovering “Cosmos”.
For those of you who want a little less coherent, but more whirlwind tour of some ancient and more modern history, I highly recommend “The Day the Universe Changed”. It’s available on DVD for an outrageous price, though you can find it various places online for free.
cosays
Muffin @ 37: Perhaps because we owe so many of our words to him today. Plus, those plays — and sonnets — are so *deep*.
And he was hardly the only author, or, indeed, playwright, mentioned in the video.
AllanWsays
Muffin @ #37
I don’t think Shakespeare is ‘idolised’ here; he was used as a reference that most people will recognise and relate to in order to illustrate the loss of work in the destruction of the library at Alexandria.
If you can’t understand the genius that Shakespeare displayed as a dramatist and illustrator of the human condition then that’s your loss, my friend. But he is used in this excerpt and others because he is a known reference.
James Burke’s Connections is also fantabulous. I think the DVD set is cheaper, too.
designsodasays
I miss Carl Sagan so. What an amazing human being. I’m glad his works are still around to remind of us of the importance of skepticism, critical thinking, and human curiosity.
Let me share some optimism. Our collection of human knowledge is no longer centralized and as vulnerable as the Library of Alexandria. So in that sense we are in better shape. Nevertheless we must never waver in resisting the forces of ignorance and superstition.
I don’t think Shakespeare is ‘idolised’ here; he was used as a reference that most people will recognise and relate to in order to illustrate the loss of work in the destruction of the library at Alexandria.
Yeah. If Sagan had invoked the name of Christopher Marlowe, the response would be, “Who?” (Even though Marlowe was the one who let us know that Helen’s face launched a thousand ships.)
Oh, and before anybody complains that Hypatia might have been killed in a struggle between two different factions of Christians, rather than between Christians and pagans, let me be the first to suggest, humbly, that’s not an improvement. It’s still a human life erased in violence, thanks to the fight to possess scarce resources whose value and very existence cannot be tested empirically. Cyril still became a saint, while Hypatia is only canonized in math textbooks.
Nicolesays
Oh gosh I have chills. We miss you Carl!
I was just getting into astronomy when he passed away. The movie “Contact” came out soon after, and I was hooked on it forever.
Ah, he speaks the truth so well, and it’s our responsibility to tell it like it is today, in his memory, and to help ourselves in the present.
Yngvesays
Vidar: Er du norsk? Hvilken kristenfundamentalistisk menighet var du medlem av?
Arnosium Upinarumsays
I had the very happy privilege and honor of working with Carl on the series. I am fortunate to have known him as a good friend. We are not likely to see another like him. That man really was that awesome, in intellect as well as principle.
I also knew the people who produced the fabulous recreation of the Alexandrian Library – this superb feat was performed by a marvelous group called Magicam long before computer graphics would have made the job so much easier. (We are talking about 1979 here – look at that sequence again: almost everything you see was filmed through a “borescope” of an impeccably detailed physical MODEL. Yes, they had to actually BUILD that. I saw it myself. It was incredible).
I am forever honored with the Magicam team to have received a 1980 Prime-Time Emmy Award for our collective efforts on that ground-breaking series.
But it should not be forgotten who was responsible for directing ‘Cosmos’, an equally awesome man who about 6 years earlier championed another example of the very finest in documentary science: Adrian Malone, who directed “The Ascent of Man” with Jacob Bronowski. Adrian was a dynamo and I’m proud to have had him as my mentor.
These men were giants in their fields. They were absolutely devoted to bringing the message of science to a public hungry with curiosity, in a form anyone could readily understand. They regarded it as a personal responsibility.
I think people like PZ Myers and Richard Dawkins are, whether they know it or accept it or like it, or not, the receivers of the baton…
Dahansays
Man I loved that guy. “The Demon Haunted World” is one of my all time favorites. I’ve bought 5 or six copies. I keep giving them to friends. I admit I cried reading the end of “Billions and Billions”. What a loss.
I know that there are those who will claim that he wasn’t that great a scientist, that point out the problems with his theory of “nuclear winter”, etc. but I wonder who else can claim to stand in his shoes as a populizer of science. Right now, I’d rather have a Carl Sagan out there, trying to drag society into reality than just about any of the “pure” scientists some seem to wish he had been.
Thanks for the clip PZ. Non-scientist, science-loving people like me will always need people like him. Those that can bring it down to our level and show us the wonder of the garden without faeries.
TSLsays
The sentiments above me here I FULLY agree with. However the sequence of events described by our esteemed Mr Sagan in this clip are, at the very least, disputed – timeline-wise, not event-wise. Is this vital to the sentiment and baseline tragedy of loss of so much to mysticism? Not at all. But I feel compelled, due to the caliber of intellect of you who frequent this space, to ‘raise my hand’ as it were.
Hypatia of Alexandria’s pater, Theon, *seems* to have actually been the ‘last’ great ‘librarian’ (for lack of a better term), rather than his daughter. Not that her existence wasn’t highly notable and influential at the general period, to all whom revered knowledge. Hypatia was *clearly* a powerhouse of intellect (damn I love ‘smart chicks’ . . but I digress) Further, the library itself was described in this clip as having been destroyed not long after Hypatia’s death in 415 ce. But the best bet for it’s destruction seems to actually be 391 ce, due the ‘church’s’ edict to destroy all ‘pagan blah-di-blah’ . . .
So, ONLY in the interest of making sure that you are due-diligently-ess-like prepared, should you ever choose to enter into debate with this important time history (which really includes the first Council of Nicea in 325 ce), with the likes of the currently superstitious, I heartily recommend that you do some additional research so as to not be embarrassed – blindsided – by timeline inaccuracies; and thus have your arguments trivialized by minutiae.
Cheers.
TSL
Laurasays
To Muffin (#37):
Shakespeare is also studied and somewhat revered because his is the largest surviving body of work from the era. As someone else above had pointed out, if Sagan had cited Christopher Marlowe, few would have known that name. Marlowe was probably the superior playwright, but fewer of his works survived, so we just don’t have that much to go on. Shakespeare’s work is uneven (the plays Sagan mentions as hypothetical survivors are far less widely read/studied/produced than the “hits” for a reason), but there’s comparatively a whole lot of it available to us. And so that’s who we study.
But there’s also a reason why Shakespeare is so pervasive still: Because when he’s really “on,” he’s profound. Unfortunately, most of us aren’t taught Shakespeare properly, so we don’t know when he’s saying something important. It all sounds (or reads) like some barely-comprehensible gobbledygook that can’t possibly have any meaning in the early 21st century. And that’s really too bad.
Laura
27% of Murikasays
Yeah, but I can ignore him since he was a goddless communistic potsmoker who tried to destroy Murika through brainwashing…
/parody
Holbachsays
Blake Stacey @ 41 Yes, James Burke’s Connections; aslo very worthwhile is our atheist friend Jonathan Miller with his programs: “The Body In Question”, “Atheism Tapes”, “Atheism: a Rough History of Disbelief’. Heck, we don’t have many of these great minds left!
David Marjanović, OMsays
Must be a culture shock. At times I was laughing at all the arm-waving and smiling, in spite of Sagan’s interesting words. :-) And sometimes he speaks in such a dramatically low voice that the background music is louder. What did they do to Hypatia’s flesh?
123 plays of Sophocles, of which 7 survive…
Why do people keep glorifying Shakespeare so much, though?
Because there’s noone else available who is as widely known. In German, we have Goethe and Schiller. In French, they have Racine and Molière. In English, it’s all Shakespeare all the time.
Vidarsays
#46: I have no idea what you just typed. Could you repeat that in english please?
Marthasays
“Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fancies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing. The child-mind accepts and believes them, and only through great pain and perhaps tragedy can he be in after-years relieved of them. In fact, men will fight for a superstition quite as quickly as for a living truth – often more so, since a superstition is so intangible you can not get at it to refute it, but truth is a point of view, and so is changeable.”
– Hypatia
TSLsays
Pursuant to the fini of #53, David Marjanović’s msg . . .
” . .Tis Cambridge radio pontificating to ye from the glorious banks of the . . . we are CRSH, all Shakespeare all the time . . . cometh this Thurday, the great Bard himself will grace us commoneth folk with his presence . . . brought to you by Comstock Chamber Pots – ‘We knoweth you knoweth how best to useth our product’ . . . and now for the news, the Thames is . . . ”
Bloody hell. I’m laughing too much at this picture in my head to continue. Somebody taketh over foreth me . . .
Cheers
Mechalithsays
Amazing… I’ve only really encountered Sagan’s work by reputation before this, something I need to remedy.
In regards to why Shakespeare is so well known/idolized in literature? I suspect it’s largely because he was occasionally quite profound and able to touch on the heart of the human condition… and because he generally wrote with an eye to the ‘cheap seats’. Most of his work (if you understand it) is pretty risque, and teeming with dirty jokes and puns and other ‘low’ humor.
(On that note, I highly recommend watching the stage version of the Comedy of Errors put on by the Flying Karamazov Brothers on Great Performances in the early 80s. It’s available as a torrent all over the place but due to the licensing involved can’t ever be released or rebroadcast.)
Giffysays
It is so incredibly saddening to realize how far we fell from once so high a place. Now having crawled back to the top, forces abound to yet again topple over our foundations.
Thank you Carl, thank you PZ, and thank you to everyone who fights each day to keep that from happening.
David Lockwoodsays
All those “professional” scientists who denigrate and ridicule science popularizers such as Sagan, Green, Gamow and others need to see this clip and really think about it. Keeping science restricted to a lofty priesthood will eventually bring it to nothing. The average, moderately educated citizen should be able to have the most obtuse subject explained to the point that the inherent value become apparent. Otherwise the superstitions will triumph because they are easy to understand.
Mikey H.says
It’s so weird, because last night when I got home from work I watched “Who speaks for Earth?” which is the final episode of COSMOS. I had it on my DVR and thought I should watch it.
Will Von Wizzlepigsays
I think, as a counter to the term ‘saint’, there ought to be a term for ‘hero, legend, genius’ in the realm of science.
Just calling these great people ‘saint’ because it already carries such weight seems a real sleight to their work.
I’m at a loss for a word that would fit nicely, although, it would be funny to just start calling these people ‘god’.
God Einstein. God Copernicus. God Feynman.
Our gods are real, and we actually know how they changed the world. We can begin replacing the historical precedent of made-up nonsense gods with real, worthy gods.
Who needs fancy book learning when you have Jesus?
“20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things–and the things that are not–to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord” (1 Corinthians 1:20-31).
Mikey Msays
Irony of ironies, my wife once taught Oakland second-graders at a Catholic school called….St Cyril’s.
So, ONLY in the interest of making sure that you are due-diligently-ess-like prepared, should you ever choose to enter into debate with this important time history (which really includes the first Council of Nicea in 325 ce), with the likes of the currently superstitious, I heartily recommend that you do some additional research so as to not be embarrassed – blindsided – by timeline inaccuracies; and thus have your arguments trivialized by minutiae.
Posted by: TSL | June 13, 2008 12:41 PM
You can do all the research you want – the actual date for the destruction of this library is lost to history forever. Actually, there are no less than four different theories as to the date of the destruction of the library. There is not a human on this earth that can enter into a debate about this time period with a certainty as to when this occurred, so it is highly unlikely that someone can “trivialize” Sagan’s description of this topic by presenting ‘more accurate’ information.
As for the date of 391ce, you should know that it is only conjecture that Theodosius’ decree to destroy all pagan temples resulted in the destruction of the Great Library. The 1992 book, Life and Fate of the Ancient Library of Alexandria, written by Mostafa El-Abbadi says as much:
…it is likely that the Mouseion did not long survive the promulgation of Theodosius’ decree in 391 to destroy all pagan temples in the City.
(bold mine for emphasis)
And the History Ecclesiastica, written about 440ce, tells of the destruction of the Serapeum in compliance with the Emperor’s decree, which did house a part of the library.
Then he destroyed the Serapeum, and the bloody rites of the Mithreum he publicly caricatured; the Serapeum also he showed full of extravagant superstitions, and he had the phalli of Priapus carried through the midst of the forum. Thus this disturbance having been terminated, the governor of Alexandria, and the commander-in-chief of the troops in Egypt, assisted Theophilus in demolishing the heathen temples.
But, as the quote stated, there are justifiable doubts as to the number of texts the Serapeum actually housed at that time. So be careful before you accuse someone of having “timeline inaccuracies” when dealing with such clouded information and simply unknowable corners of antiquity.
windysays
Who needs fancy book learning when you have Jesus?
A nice Jehovah’s witness lady approached me this morning and asked if I thought Noah’s flood really happened or if it was a myth. I liked the phrasing, at least :) “But Jesus referred to the flood as if it was a real event!” I think that was supposed to be clinching evidence somehow…
Longtime Lurkersays
Brings back memories… I loved Sagan, but it was still fun to lampoon his delivery. Simply imitating his “Billions and billions” can bring me to happy tears. We really owe a debt to such people as Sagan and Cousteau, as they sparked our imaginations, and Sagan helped us construct B.S. detectors.
I would posit that Attenborough and Neil Degrasse Tyson are currently the keepers of the flame. E.O. Wilson, Richard Dawkins, and our own beloved professor are certainly significant voices for the scientific community, but as Randi Rhodes says, “If it’s not on the T.V., it never happened.” Now, “P.Z. on the T.V.” would be something, n’est ce pas?
“QUESTION: Dr. Sagan, you’ve spoken about the need to, as you say, be defenders of science, or to spread the wonders of science and the value of science among those who are perhaps less well educated or have less of an appreciation of it. It seems to be quite a challenge, and I was wondering, in particular, there are many people, of course, plus the people in this room, perhaps a fairly large portion have some background in science. Amongst people who have what is called a liberal education, who may be in the arts or in the humanities, science has among many of them something of a bad name. I wonder if you have any thought on what path might be taken to remedy that situation.
SAGAN: I think one, perhaps, is to present science as it is, as something dazzling, as something tremendously exciting, as something eliciting feelings of reverence and awe, as something that our lives depend on. If it isn’t presented that way, if it’s presented in very dull textbook fashion, then of course people will be turned off. If the chemistry teacher is the basketball coach, if the school boards are unable to get support for the new school bond issue, if teachers’ salaries, especially in science, are very low, if very little is demanded of our students in terms of homework and original class time, if virtually every newspaper in the country has a daily astrology column and hardly any of them has a weekly science column, if the Sunday morning pundit shows never discuss science, if every one of the commercial television networks has somebody designated as a science reporter but he (it’s always he) never presents any science, it’s all technology and medicine, if an intelligent remark on science has never been uttered in living memory by a President of the United States, if in all of television there are no action-adventure series in which the hero or heroine is someone devoted to finding out how the universe works, if spiffy jackets attractive to the opposite sex are given to students who do well in football, basketball, and baseball but none in chemistry, physics, and mathematics, if we do all of that, then it is not surprising that a lot of people come out of the American educational system turned off, or having never experienced, science. That was a very long sentence.”
And just for good measure, that site also offers this:
Orestes was said to be under the influence of Hypatia, a female philosopher and daughter of the “last member of the Library of Alexandria”. Although it should be noted that some count Hypatia herself as the last Head Librarian.
(bold mine for emphasis)
Sven DiMilosays
“P.Z. on the T.V.” would be something, n’est ce pas?
eh. I think he’s found his optimum medium.
TSLsays
Now, pursuant to my own #49 above, it further occurs to me that it could be helpful to add additional context.
I have discovered, at least for myself, that an excellent tactic to debate and ‘shut down’ (at least temporarily) creationists, et al, is to know their religion better than they do. This is usually not all that difficult, as you can imagine, the loudest mouths are most often the least familiar with the details of that which they espouse. Knowing intimately the truths about the Ecumenical Councils, specifically the first Council of Nicaea, MC’d by none other than emperor Constantine himself. This is the beginning of the game rules for that brand of superstition.
Anyway, you’ll either go do the research (if you haven’t already), or you won’t. My point is that rather than even getting to the micro level that some creation vs evolution debates ‘evolve’ (haha, look, I made a funny . . . OK, never mind . . .), I attack at the macro level and push the your-superstition-is-a-sham button – ‘here’s why’ and back it up with the history. (It amazed me that the outcry from Davinci Code was about the lineage and possible fathering of a child by Jman (who’s existence AS A MAN, due to a reasonable preponderance of evidence, I do not dispute.) It *should* have been about the Council of Nicaea from which LITERALLY the c-superstition’s tenants, dates and practices were ‘decided’ – including the ‘divinity’ of Jesus.)
The factual history is my tool, rather than the science, cause I simply do not seem to be able to keep all the science micro debate tools handy in my head.
The basic lineup is this: “Don’t give me that creation crap, your superstition of choice was all sketched out and decided by a bunch of human men in 325 AD” (I prefer ce myself, or ‘common era’, but AD puts it in their language for better affect.) “You are simply attempting to argue by detailing one wall of a house that never built.” “No house, no wall.” “NEXT.” Or some such derivative. It of course works no better on the loud fanaticists than does the science. But I have found that the average c-person doesn’t have a clue about those meetings who’s outcomes determined their current-day religious practices.
I gave my boyfriend Cosmos for Valentine’s Day this year. He got me a rock tumbler.
Shakespeare's ghostsays
“Ye elves of hills, brooks, standing lakes and groves,
And ye that on the sands with printless foot
Do chase the ebbing Neptune and do fly him
When he comes back; you demi-puppets that
By moonshine do the green sour ringlets make,
Whereof the ewe not bites, and you whose pastime
Is to make midnight mushrooms, that rejoice
To hear the solemn curfew; by whose aid,
Weak masters though ye be, I have bedimm’d
The noontide sun, call’d forth the mutinous winds,
And ‘twixt the green sea and the azured vault
Set roaring war: to the dread rattling thunder
Have I given fire and rifted Jove’s stout oak
With his own bolt; the strong-based promontory
Have I made shake and by the spurs pluck’d up
The pine and cedar: graves at my command
Have waked their sleepers, oped, and let ’em forth
By my so potent art. But this rough magic
I here abjure, and, when I have required
Some heavenly music, which even now I do,
To work mine end upon their senses that
This airy charm is for, I’ll break my staff,
Bury it certain fathoms in the earth,
And deeper than did ever plummet sound
I’ll drown my book.”
That’s why, varlets. Thou uncouth hounds, thou blackguards, that would disparage mine art! Behold Prospero’s farewell to his craft, and despair of seeing the like again.
I have discovered, at least for myself, that an excellent tactic to debate and ‘shut down’ (at least temporarily) creationists, et al, is to know their religion better than they do.
I doubt you’re telling much to people who frequent this site that they didn’t already know. Besides being the modus operandi of debate here, that’s also just good common sense.
But then again, you can present all the rational evidence you want, but don’t expect to “shut down” a true creationist in any way, especially using something as disputable as history. After all, their fervor is based on faith, which is defined as belief without proof.
TSLsays
To #66 & 70, brokenSoldier,
I do my best to mitigate certainty-insitance in my own pontifications with qualifiers, such as “best bet.” You Sir, however have laid it all out well. There are indeed four theories of said destruction. Clearly your history knowledge beats mine. Perhaps it would have been best to just make the point that what our esteemed Mr Sagan spoke to, is in fact disputed. So going about using it as a certainty, regardless of the esteemed source, could put one in a bind of fighting dates rather than content. Be educated, be prepared.
It is in fact *because* of the esteemed source – Sagan in that clip – that I could see his expressed time-line being used by one here as undisputed fact, only then to be stuck fighting a date debate should they have mistakenly taken on a history-buffish c-person.
Hmmmm. I sense redundancy above . . .
So then have I at least somewhat redeemed myself then?
Cheers.
TSLsays
Mmmmm. I’m thinking perhaps I shall send my resume to the:
DEPARTMENT OF REDUNDANCY DEPARTMENT
for consideration of a mid-management level position.
CLEARLY, I have the credentials . . . “How many ‘then’s’ does it take to make a sentence?”
Like I told you at your talk in Seattle, Cosmos is my favorite television program. I have the DVD set and lately I put it on instead of music when I’m trying to fall asleep.
I really miss Carl Sagan, and wish I had been able to meet him before he died. I’m not sure if we currently have someone who has taken the reins from him in the area of scientific outreach, but I think Phil Plait does a fantastic job in this arena.
I guess it’s more of a “distributed computing” effort by all of you high-profile scientists now that we have the Web.
It is in fact *because* of the esteemed source – Sagan in that clip – that I could see his expressed time-line being used by one here as undisputed fact, only then to be stuck fighting a date debate should they have mistakenly taken on a history-buffish c-person.
Posted by: TSL | June 13, 2008 2:58 PM
That’s a valid point, but Sagan’s repeated emphasis of the importance of research and skepticism in the pursuit of knowledge in that series makes me seriously doubt that someone who is truly paying attention to him would do such a thing. And given the type of minds that are regulars on this site (I’m referring to those likely to be debating against creationists), the possibility of that happening is even lower, IMHO.
Nick Gottssays
I wonder when the Churches will apologise for the murder of Hypatia and the destruction of the library?
In English, it’s all Shakespeare all the time. –
David Marjanović, OM
Not in Scotland. No true Scotsman prefers Shakespeare to Robbie Burns!
themadlolscientistsays
Where, oh where are the Sagans, Burkes, Bronowskis, Goulds, Pelikans, and Boorstins of today? Realizing that they left no heirs makes me want to break down and cry.
JohnnieCanuck, FCDsays
True Scotsmen don’t speak English, now do they?
SCsays
Reading the book Cosmos (I’ve still only seen fragments of the TV version) as a kid was a life-changing event for me. Great, gentle man.
Speaking of attacks on libraries, I should point out that the librarians of today are no shrinking violets. They have been at the forefront of resistance to the Patriot Act. To cite one specific case: A few weeks ago, I attended a talk given by Amy Goodman and her brother David Goodman about their new book, Standing up to the Madness: Ordinary Heroes in Extraordinary Times. One powerful chapter focuses on the people from The Library Connection in Connecticut who fought a National Security Letter. The best part was about the first guy to be presented with the Letter, who then went to his board members for support: [to the best of my recollection] “He knew that if he was going to take on the entire US security state, he would need at least three other librarians.” :)
Owlmirrorsays
Where, oh where are the Sagans, Burkes, Bronowskis, Goulds, Pelikans, and Boorstins of today? Realizing that they left no heirs makes me want to break down and cry.
David Attenborough is not dead. Neither is James Burke, come to think of it.
They’re still out there, doing things.
ChgoLizsays
There’s a practical answer for “why Shakespeare?” as well.
He had the good fortune to write in the dialect of the part of London that ended up being the basis for modern English. Try reading any of his contemporaries: you won’t be able to understand them unless you have sufficient linguistic study in your background. Most of Shakespeare can be understood today, at least in general terms, without a full translation standing by for reference.
There are so many ways that valuable information/culture gets lost. Libraries might burn, or languages change, or reports written in WordPerfect and saved on 5 1/4″ floppies become unretrievable.
cosays
***
***
Where, oh where are the Sagans, Burkes, Bronowskis, Goulds, Pelikans, and Boorstins of today? Realizing that they left no heirs makes me want to break down and cry.
***
David Attenborough is not dead. Neither is James Burke, come to think of it.
They’re still out there, doing things.
***
Indeed. And I, for one, would like to see Stephen Fry start an analogous movement or series which looks into things *deeply* and *insightfully*. His show “QI” does a reasonably good job at bringing quite interesting things to the world. Unfortunately, he’s got some minor facts quite wrong before.
Holbachsays
Shakespeare’s ghost @ 74 Keep him forever alive!
Papiliosays
re #69:
Does being dead disqualify one for the office of President of the United States? I’d vote for him. Not that I can, coming from the 51st state…
If there was anyone I could ‘do a Lazarus on’ I would choose Sagan. (Sorry Dad.)
robotaholicsays
sometimes when i’m in a bad situation I turn on Cosmos and think about the vastness of the universe and how insignificant my stupid worries are and I get so calm and happy – Cosmos really is that great –
Carl Sagan was so awesome.
DLCsays
I had the happy experience of watching Carl Sagan’s Cosmos the first time it came out on PBS.
The segment above is one of the most moving of the entire series. I saw it then as both a warning and a message.
A warning against letting the forces of ignorance and unreason win, and a message that one of the best ways of doing this was to popularize science and the arts — to get it out there among the people, and not leave it confined to those who develop it. Had Sophocles’ plays been widely distributed no one could have wiped them out in one single act of destruction.If Heron of Alexandria had made an effort to get his inventions out there for the public to use it almost certainly would have resulted in an acceleration of further technological development.
Sagan also warns that none of these people in the past ever confronted the ignorance and superstition of their day.
They could have used a few men like Sagan.
Yngvesays
Vidar @ #54:
Sorry about that. Vidar is a norwegian name so I asked if you are Norwegian. You clearly are not. The second question was which congregation you belonged to. I wanted to know a bit about the christian congregations in Norway. I guess you wouldn’t know anything about those.
Yngvesays
Vidar @ #54:
Sorry about that. Vidar is a norwegian name so I asked if you are Norwegian. You clearly are not. The second question was which congregation you belonged to. I wanted to know a bit about the christian congregations in Norway. I guess you wouldn’t know anything about those.
CanadaGoosesays
How old these comments make me feel!
COSMOS was an amazing achievement and I remember talking about every episode at work the next day.
Sagan and Stephen Jay Gould were and remain my heroes.
gsbsays
Poignant. Thanks PZ.
I weep for the wasted potential of the human race.
Claudiasays
#32
I never saw ‘cosmos’. My parents were religious
fundamentalists, and instilled in me a distaste for
science, that I have been able to shrug off only fairly
recently. I’m currently devouring ‘the demon-haunted
world’.
I’m in the same boat. I’m actually discovering in me a real love and appreciation for science that I feel was quashed by my upbringing. I feel slightly resentful at the moment because now I feel I’m beyond an age of capitalising on that interest.
David Marjanović, OMsays
Irony of ironies, my wife once taught Oakland second-graders at a Catholic school called….St Cyril’s.
And third – trying to read Shakespeare “in the original” is futile. As originally composed, it was…
– Handwritten in an inconsistent style, not printed in the modern standard orthography. Witness the following random sample from “Henry VI Part 3” (III 91-2): <I am a subiect fit to be ieast withall,/ But farre vnfit to be a Soueraigne>. And remember, he never once spelt his name <Shakespeare>!
– Designed to be declaimed with a thick sixteenth-century accent: “OY AHM UH SOOBJEK FIT TOE BEE JAIST WI-THAAL, BOOT FAR-ROONFIT TOE BEE UH SAWVA-RAYN”. Anything else ruins it as poetry! To contemporary listeners <pass> made a good rhyme for <was>, and <departure> for <shorter>; the author’s name was more like “SHEXPAIRR” than “SHEYKSPEEAH”.
– Full of extinct grammatical features – “Wherefore art thou Romeo?” means “Why are you (named) Romeo?”; “Live thou, I live” means “If you should live, I will live”; and “Knock me at this gate” means “Knock on the door for me”. On the other hand, “It’s being left on its own” would have sounded utterly ungrammatical to Shakespeare.
– Intended for an audience familiar with Elizabethan idioms, topical references and worldview – Divine Right of Kings, the Four Humours, Jews as bogeymen, etc. Modern performances ignore most of the puns and subtexts – fortunately for his reputation.
In other words, the whole thing is unintelligible without either an annotated translation […] or weeks of specialised training, which would be no more worthwhile than teaching every child how to pilot a biplane.
——————
If Heron of Alexandria had made an effort to get his inventions out there for the public to use it almost certainly would have resulted in an acceleration of further technological development.
In a slave economy, where not even the Gallic mowing machine stayed in use? Unlikely.
Silisays
Well, thank you. What an extraordinarily sad note to go to bed on.
Like with Feynmann I only learnt of Sagan after his death. For a curious kid I certainly managed to keep myself horribly uneducated.
I think I’ll have to treat myself to some boxsets from Amazon or Ebay before long.
Benjamin Franklinsays
Another person who eminently carries on the tradition of Sagan is Dr. Michio (Mike) Kaku. He is a gifted physicist who was a co-founder of string theory, but can make the headiest of scientific subjects easily understood.
For those of you not familiar with him, do yourselves an immense favor and visit his website, listen to his radio show, read his books. I had the good fortune to study under him in college, and am certainly far better off having had that experience.
Lesser Wharksays
#49, #66,
The fact that we’ve lost so much information about the Great Library that we don’t even know when it was destroyed seems to prove Sagan’s underlying point.
Mikey Msays
I think it was James Burke who said that every ship that docked in Alexandria had to loan all of its books to be copied, and that is one reason the library collection was so vast.
Anyone else remember reading this, in Connections?
DingoDavesays
It’s a repeating tragedy that it almost always seems to be the stupidest people who are the most confident and arrogant about what they believe to be true.
Unfortunately they also often make the most successful politicians because they can most successfully connect with ‘grass roots’ opinion. Hence the tragedy of the library of Alexandria.
Bishop Cyril needed shooting, rooting, and electrocuting for what he did to the state of learning in Alexandria, and hence to the rest of the world!
DingoDavesays
Please allow me to slightly re-arrange what I would like to have done to Bishop Cyril of Alexandria had I been given the opportunity.
I wouldn’t have done the first one personally, but I probably would have been happy to watch : )
Bishop Cyril needed ‘rooting, shooting, and electrocuting’ for what he did to the state of learning in Alexandria, and hence to the rest of the world!
cosays
@ 101:
(unabashedly copied from Wikipedia, but I remember this from Connections, too:)
A story concerns how its collection grew so large: by decree of Ptolemy III of Egypt, all visitors to the city were required to surrender all books, scrolls as well as any form of written media in any language in their possession which, according to Galen, were listed under the heading “books of the ships”; these writings were then swiftly copied by official scribes. Sometimes the copies were so precise that the originals were put into the Library, and the copies were delivered to the unsuspecting previous owners.
(from Episode 2 of Connections Series 1, “Death in the Morning”.)
re #61: How about “sage”? It has the advantage of having approximately the right meaning already; it just needs to be cannonized by usage.
The plural of Sage, of course, would be Sagan. It would also make a great plural noun: “A Sagan of geniuses.”
themadlolscientistsays
David Attenborough is not dead. Neither is James Burke, come to think of it.
I didn’t realize Burke was still alive. I haven’t seen anything by him in years.
Attenborough is still at the top of his game after what, 50 years? Last I heard, he was planning to quit appearing on-camera, which is hardly surprising given the difficulty of trekking to the wild places of the world and the fact that he’s 82.
Shintysays
I have to emphasise a point made earlier, this clip also contains a warning for science. Your hard won knowledge will be lost if you make no effort to explain it to the masses. When the fundamentalists come knocking at your lab door with burning torch in hand, no one will be there to defend you or sadly even care. This process appears to be starting already which makes this clip very timely.
Sterghesays
I use Hypatia’s story to introduce my GED students–usually all women–to their pre-algebra unit of study. The effect is electrifying, one of those happily spine-tingly moments that teachers can experience when students suddenly shift their perspective of an entire body of material.
I may add this video to the course, too. The lessons that Alverant mentioned–the dangers of hoarding knowledge while allowing our neighbors to embrace ignorance–may take on a new kind of importance for GED students.
L.Nielsensays
I weep.
I weep for all the precious knowledge.
I weep for all the precious time.
All lost to ignorance.
All wasted by people scared of reality and by their deeds of folly.
Oh, how far we could reach, if knowledge were not a sin and ignorance not a virtue.
And so my hope is this: That through my tears people will see.
António Martins-Tuválkinsays
#8:
> Some scientists tend to be dismissive of the humanities
Not. (OK, but a bit just like the tired line about «some biologists are not “darwinists”, you know?»)
On the other hand, most humanities’ scholars, embued in pomo claptrap, tend to be dismissive of science (and of pre-pomo humanities, too, come to think of it).
Gargunzasays
@106 (themadlolscientist): Not only is Burke still alive, he’s working on an Internet-based project called the Knowledge Web (k-web.org).
Personally, I think that a Web-based format would be the most comprehensive method for Burke & co. to illustrate their views on the interconnectedness of science, culture, etc….although admittedly it won’t be nearly as engaging as his Connections broadcasts. (I remember when the Discover Science Channel was just starting up in the late 90’s, and they had so little fresh programming that they just ran marathons of Connections 2 thru 4 over and over…great stuff. We need more programming like that today.)
I miss Carl. My Dad and I used to watch Cosmos together. I remember the first time I learned about the Library of Alexandria in school. I cried. I think it was in 3rd grade, maybe. I understood that there was a near immeasurable amount of learning, and science, and art, and literature that was destroyed in its burning. I remember seeing Carl’s description of that loss that you’ve linked to in that video, and it still makes me cry. I mourn it.
Wowbaggersays
Is there an award named for him at all? Can someone win a ‘Sagan’ for something truly excellent relating to science of some form?
I finally tracked down a copy of Cosmos, it should make for some great viewing this weekend :D
Jonathansays
Sadly, I don’t remember that guy – at least not directly. But he was one of those thinkers that my father championed. I wasn’t yet born when Cosmos ran, but I’ve read his works and his autobiography. The Demon-Haunted World remains one of my favorites and was the first book that taught me that it was OK to be skeptical about the fantastic claims others made about creation and existence.
Once semester during high school English class we somehow got to discussing Sagan himself. I confirmed that he was an atheist and my teacher – who was just a little bit left of Christian nutcase – said something to the effect of: “Well, we know where he went after he died, then.” To which I replied: “The same place as Ghandi, I suppose.” That seemed to quiet the discussion…
‘this guy’?
‘this guy‘???
yeah, i remember carl sagan.
There was a doubt about that?
Still, it’s best to remind ourselves …
Ohh . . . that guy.
I’m in tears.
The day that we forget Carl Sagan and his legacy is the day that society will lose everything of value to fanaticism and ignorance. The world needs more people like him.
That has always been my favorite segment of Cosmos. Where could we have been today if radical chritians had not burned all the knowledge?
Everything I am today, everything I accept when it comes to the physical world and the methods I use to evaluate the same….are a result of this wonderful man.
My viewing of the ‘Cosmos’ series when it was first run when I was in junior high school was a revelation and a revolution in my mind.
As much as my parents, Carl is responsible for who I am eternally grateful to him.
Robert
Leominster, MA
USA
What an amazing video. I’m sorry to say I haven’t seen much of Cosmos, but I’ve been a fan of Sagan for a long time.
I had no idea that over 100 of Sophocles’ plays were kept at Alexandria. Since I’m an English major, that just makes its destruction all the more horrible (the science was cool, too, I guess :P). His acknowledgment of the value of the literature in Alexandria alongside that of the science is one of the things that makes Sagan a truly great scholar. Some scientists tend to be dismissive of the humanities (though I know you’re not like that, PZ, since I’ve seen you say plenty of positive things about the arts in the past).
Sagan is probably the person I admire the most. I read his book The Demon Haunted world when I was a teenager and it crystallized for me how important rational thought and a skeptical outlook were. He had such an ability to elicit wonder while conveying science and skepticism – two things that aren’t always equated with wonder or enjoyment.
There are two words I have always wanted to say to Carl Sagan, but sadly never got the chance. So I will say them to you instead, PZ: Thank you.
Much like Robert in #7 above, I watched Cosmos as a small child, home sick from school for several weeks in a row. He made me want to be a scientist, perhaps a physicist. It wasn’t until junior high that I finally realized that math is not my strongest subject. (A vast understatement if there ever were one.) I was devastated. I continued to devour all of Sagan’s works, but with a lot of melancholy, knowing it wasn’t to be my life’s path.
Then when I was 16 or so, my high school history teacher handed me a copy of Contact. I found it so profoundly moving that I realized what I really wanted to be, what I could realistically be, was a writer. So weirdly enough, Sagan is directly responsible for leading me away from a scientific career rather than into one. (Well, Sagan, Shakespeare, that high school history teacher, and one fantastic senior English teacher.)
I always wanted to write him a letter, but I never got the chance. So thank you for posting this, PZ. It’s a moving blast from the past, and also a grave reminder.
Laura
I just put Cosmos in my wish list on Amazon. Thanks, Dr. Myers.
Lest you think it is not happening today, our society is spending millions to create ‘museums’ of our own, where we actively oppose and ridicule science, and fervently ‘document’ absurd creation myths for future generations.
“This guy” opened the world of science and historical inquiry to me when I was wee. Though part of me is skeptical of his support for SETI, another part says, “Well, at least he was expanding the range of inquiry and continuing to ask questions, rather than giving up and shutting down.” Dr. Sagan, your spirit of “what else could we discover?” is sorely missed.
I’m just in awe.
Very powerful. I am in awe. It contains two powerful warnings. One against the forces of ignorance and the other against hording knowledge. I to am left to wonder how much further our society would have advanced if the scientists there had shared what they learned and reasoned with the populous. But in a way I can’t blame them for not. The idea that knowledge was for a privileged few existed for centuries before and after the Library. Even some of the Founding Fathers of our country were cautious about giving everyone the right to vote and initially had it for a select portion of the citizens (non-slave males). Even today being intelligent and learned can get you called an elitist, a term used to separate you from “normal” people. I only hope we can learn from these failures from the past.
I couldn’t help but think while watching this that during the invasion of Iraq, the US military didn’t send even one soldier to protect the Iraqi National Museum.
The thing about SETI is, maybe there will be a signal someday and maybe there will never be one. But like everything else, you don’t know what is there until you look. I support SETI knowing that we may never hear a thing. Because investigating things expands our knowledge even if we don’t find what we want to find.
*sob*
Both for the loss of Sagan and the state of society today.
I really, really miss “this guy.”
His eloquence, sincerity, and passion for science in the service of humanity remains unrivaled by anyone today, unfortunately.
This brought tears to my eyes, I have always admired Carl Sagan and was a big fan of Cosmos in the ’80’s.
It’s possible his measured tones and relentless logic may have inoculated me against the worst of fundamentalism, and laid a foundation for the big life change 25 years later. Thanks Carl:-)
It filled me with great sadness that people can so easily discard centuries of knowledge without any regard for it’s value. It’s like the Taliban blowing up those ancient Buddha statues, just no regard for the significance of preserving culture and not realising that it is part of our identity as a species and as a society.
It’s scary to think that it is so easy to destroy all the progress we’ve made as a society. All it takes is the wrong people to get into power and BAM! everything we’ve accomplished in the last 500 years could be lost. To me the saving grace is that we live in an age of relative scientific rationalism so at least in western cultures our understanding of the universe will be preserved as long as there are those who wish to preserve it. And with the prosperity and ease of access to said information we may have a system which finally can barricade the doors from fundamentalism.
Awesome video, read a bit of Carl Sagan but never seen him speak. One question arises, why does he sound so much like Agent Smith from the matrix? Did the actor playing Smith take some of his vocal mannerisms for reasons best known to himself?
Carl Sagan. What a legend.
To anyone who does not own Cosmos… why not??
#22
haha! You are right, and you reminded me of this video I saw a while ago, The Matrix vs. Carl Sagan
Ah Carl; I wish he was still with us to help us fight the insane hordes who want to finish off what they started in great Alexandria. Did you notice the octopus on the wall in the closing shot? We still have them!
Like many others here, I was always a big fan of ‘this guy’.
I was lucky enough to meet him in person a couple of times, and he was always very down to earth and willing to talk with anyone (even me, a lowly undergrad working my way through school at the time).
I have a signed copy of Contact at home. =)
There will be a Cosmos marathon starting at 10 am on June 22nd on the Science Channel.
Makes you wonder just how much knowledge has been lost over time…
It’s like the Taliban blowing up those ancient Buddha statues, just no regard for the significance of preserving culture and not realising that it is part of our identity as a species and as a society.
This is the kind of shit that happens when groups of people start believing they’re “right” and I’d wager that it sets humanity back more often than it advances it. There is an aspect of science that appears to be pretty true, even though it isn’t talked about all that much nor probably considered by individuals near enough: whenever you start becoming convinced that you’re right, you’re probably fucked up. It benefits science when we make an effort to consciously recalibrate our situational awareness. I suspect it would benefit society greatly if groups of people would try to be less myopic as well. Though that seems to go against the philosophy of forming the group in the first place. Go figure…
Go to this link http://www.csicop.org/si/2005-07/sagan.html for a public Q&A with Sagan in 1994. At his best. I do miss him so.
Ciao
Stuck behind an industrial size server/firewall, I’m unable to view videos. Is there a transcript of this somewhere? It would make a great read over lunch.
I do miss him. Cosmos was awesome, even translated in french, Contact and Pale Blue Dot are 2 very important books and mental images for me.
I never saw ‘cosmos’. My parents were religious fundamentalists, and instilled in me a distaste for science, that I have been able to shrug off only fairly recently. I’m currently devouring ‘the demon-haunted world’. We need more people like “this guy”, and they need to make more of these shows.
The discovery-channel is the most science-oriented channel on my tv, and I almost never see stuff like this, and far too many bike-building reality shows, and pimp-my-ride-ripoffs in between the UFO-conspiracy junk.
Anyone interested in seeing Northern Ireland in a period of relative calm should get a move on.
The goony-birds are in control here in the form of a right-wing fundamentalist ruling party.
The First Minister’s wife thinks gays are an aboination but they can be cured if they get a good shrink (she’s serious here folks).
At local Government level they are trying to implement ID education into middle-schools. Members of your own dear Disc. Inst. smell fresh meat and have visited these shores recently.
Carl Sagan would be burned at the stake, and as for PZ … it’s too horrible!!
Brought tears to my eyes. This is the second time I’ve seen this clip, and the first time I didn’t notice this subtext:
“Hey, scientists! This is why I’m doing this series! Get your noses out of your research for one second and help me!”
Think about how close to calculus they came, 2200 years ago…
I’m sure Carl would be pleased that our old friend, habeas corpus, has just been released from an unknown location and returned to the land of the somewhat free by a 5 to 4 ruling by the Supremes.
Yes, nice video.
Why do people keep glorifying Shakespeare so much, though? Yes, he was a good playwright, but I myself at least fail to see why he’s so idolised, and I also fail to see why he seems to be the only playwright – or, in fact, historical author *ever* mentioned in contexts such as this.
I never saw “Cosmos” when growing up, but was introduced to Sagan through “The Dragons of Eden”.
I did see James Burke’s “The Day the Universe Changed” on PBS — the first program I was allowed to stay up late and watch. I am now discovering “Cosmos”.
For those of you who want a little less coherent, but more whirlwind tour of some ancient and more modern history, I highly recommend “The Day the Universe Changed”. It’s available on DVD for an outrageous price, though you can find it various places online for free.
Muffin @ 37: Perhaps because we owe so many of our words to him today. Plus, those plays — and sonnets — are so *deep*.
And he was hardly the only author, or, indeed, playwright, mentioned in the video.
Muffin @ #37
I don’t think Shakespeare is ‘idolised’ here; he was used as a reference that most people will recognise and relate to in order to illustrate the loss of work in the destruction of the library at Alexandria.
If you can’t understand the genius that Shakespeare displayed as a dramatist and illustrator of the human condition then that’s your loss, my friend. But he is used in this excerpt and others because he is a known reference.
James Burke’s Connections is also fantabulous. I think the DVD set is cheaper, too.
I miss Carl Sagan so. What an amazing human being. I’m glad his works are still around to remind of us of the importance of skepticism, critical thinking, and human curiosity.
Let me share some optimism. Our collection of human knowledge is no longer centralized and as vulnerable as the Library of Alexandria. So in that sense we are in better shape. Nevertheless we must never waver in resisting the forces of ignorance and superstition.
What a coincidence; we were just watching that episode a couple days ago.
I sighed heavily, a number of times. The humans are full of mean and stupid, and don’t appear to have improved much over the centuries.
andrea
AllanW (#40):
Yeah. If Sagan had invoked the name of Christopher Marlowe, the response would be, “Who?” (Even though Marlowe was the one who let us know that Helen’s face launched a thousand ships.)
Oh, and before anybody complains that Hypatia might have been killed in a struggle between two different factions of Christians, rather than between Christians and pagans, let me be the first to suggest, humbly, that’s not an improvement. It’s still a human life erased in violence, thanks to the fight to possess scarce resources whose value and very existence cannot be tested empirically. Cyril still became a saint, while Hypatia is only canonized in math textbooks.
Oh gosh I have chills. We miss you Carl!
I was just getting into astronomy when he passed away. The movie “Contact” came out soon after, and I was hooked on it forever.
Ah, he speaks the truth so well, and it’s our responsibility to tell it like it is today, in his memory, and to help ourselves in the present.
Vidar: Er du norsk? Hvilken kristenfundamentalistisk menighet var du medlem av?
I had the very happy privilege and honor of working with Carl on the series. I am fortunate to have known him as a good friend. We are not likely to see another like him. That man really was that awesome, in intellect as well as principle.
I also knew the people who produced the fabulous recreation of the Alexandrian Library – this superb feat was performed by a marvelous group called Magicam long before computer graphics would have made the job so much easier. (We are talking about 1979 here – look at that sequence again: almost everything you see was filmed through a “borescope” of an impeccably detailed physical MODEL. Yes, they had to actually BUILD that. I saw it myself. It was incredible).
I am forever honored with the Magicam team to have received a 1980 Prime-Time Emmy Award for our collective efforts on that ground-breaking series.
But it should not be forgotten who was responsible for directing ‘Cosmos’, an equally awesome man who about 6 years earlier championed another example of the very finest in documentary science: Adrian Malone, who directed “The Ascent of Man” with Jacob Bronowski. Adrian was a dynamo and I’m proud to have had him as my mentor.
These men were giants in their fields. They were absolutely devoted to bringing the message of science to a public hungry with curiosity, in a form anyone could readily understand. They regarded it as a personal responsibility.
I think people like PZ Myers and Richard Dawkins are, whether they know it or accept it or like it, or not, the receivers of the baton…
Man I loved that guy. “The Demon Haunted World” is one of my all time favorites. I’ve bought 5 or six copies. I keep giving them to friends. I admit I cried reading the end of “Billions and Billions”. What a loss.
I know that there are those who will claim that he wasn’t that great a scientist, that point out the problems with his theory of “nuclear winter”, etc. but I wonder who else can claim to stand in his shoes as a populizer of science. Right now, I’d rather have a Carl Sagan out there, trying to drag society into reality than just about any of the “pure” scientists some seem to wish he had been.
Thanks for the clip PZ. Non-scientist, science-loving people like me will always need people like him. Those that can bring it down to our level and show us the wonder of the garden without faeries.
The sentiments above me here I FULLY agree with. However the sequence of events described by our esteemed Mr Sagan in this clip are, at the very least, disputed – timeline-wise, not event-wise. Is this vital to the sentiment and baseline tragedy of loss of so much to mysticism? Not at all. But I feel compelled, due to the caliber of intellect of you who frequent this space, to ‘raise my hand’ as it were.
Hypatia of Alexandria’s pater, Theon, *seems* to have actually been the ‘last’ great ‘librarian’ (for lack of a better term), rather than his daughter. Not that her existence wasn’t highly notable and influential at the general period, to all whom revered knowledge. Hypatia was *clearly* a powerhouse of intellect (damn I love ‘smart chicks’ . . but I digress) Further, the library itself was described in this clip as having been destroyed not long after Hypatia’s death in 415 ce. But the best bet for it’s destruction seems to actually be 391 ce, due the ‘church’s’ edict to destroy all ‘pagan blah-di-blah’ . . .
So, ONLY in the interest of making sure that you are due-diligently-ess-like prepared, should you ever choose to enter into debate with this important time history (which really includes the first Council of Nicea in 325 ce), with the likes of the currently superstitious, I heartily recommend that you do some additional research so as to not be embarrassed – blindsided – by timeline inaccuracies; and thus have your arguments trivialized by minutiae.
Cheers.
TSL
To Muffin (#37):
Shakespeare is also studied and somewhat revered because his is the largest surviving body of work from the era. As someone else above had pointed out, if Sagan had cited Christopher Marlowe, few would have known that name. Marlowe was probably the superior playwright, but fewer of his works survived, so we just don’t have that much to go on. Shakespeare’s work is uneven (the plays Sagan mentions as hypothetical survivors are far less widely read/studied/produced than the “hits” for a reason), but there’s comparatively a whole lot of it available to us. And so that’s who we study.
But there’s also a reason why Shakespeare is so pervasive still: Because when he’s really “on,” he’s profound. Unfortunately, most of us aren’t taught Shakespeare properly, so we don’t know when he’s saying something important. It all sounds (or reads) like some barely-comprehensible gobbledygook that can’t possibly have any meaning in the early 21st century. And that’s really too bad.
Laura
Yeah, but I can ignore him since he was a goddless communistic potsmoker who tried to destroy Murika through brainwashing…
/parody
Blake Stacey @ 41 Yes, James Burke’s Connections; aslo very worthwhile is our atheist friend Jonathan Miller with his programs: “The Body In Question”, “Atheism Tapes”, “Atheism: a Rough History of Disbelief’. Heck, we don’t have many of these great minds left!
Must be a culture shock. At times I was laughing at all the arm-waving and smiling, in spite of Sagan’s interesting words. :-) And sometimes he speaks in such a dramatically low voice that the background music is louder. What did they do to Hypatia’s flesh?
123 plays of Sophocles, of which 7 survive…
Because there’s noone else available who is as widely known. In German, we have Goethe and Schiller. In French, they have Racine and Molière. In English, it’s all Shakespeare all the time.
#46: I have no idea what you just typed. Could you repeat that in english please?
“Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fancies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing. The child-mind accepts and believes them, and only through great pain and perhaps tragedy can he be in after-years relieved of them. In fact, men will fight for a superstition quite as quickly as for a living truth – often more so, since a superstition is so intangible you can not get at it to refute it, but truth is a point of view, and so is changeable.”
– Hypatia
Pursuant to the fini of #53, David Marjanović’s msg . . .
” . .Tis Cambridge radio pontificating to ye from the glorious banks of the . . . we are CRSH, all Shakespeare all the time . . . cometh this Thurday, the great Bard himself will grace us commoneth folk with his presence . . . brought to you by Comstock Chamber Pots – ‘We knoweth you knoweth how best to useth our product’ . . . and now for the news, the Thames is . . . ”
Bloody hell. I’m laughing too much at this picture in my head to continue. Somebody taketh over foreth me . . .
Cheers
Amazing… I’ve only really encountered Sagan’s work by reputation before this, something I need to remedy.
In regards to why Shakespeare is so well known/idolized in literature? I suspect it’s largely because he was occasionally quite profound and able to touch on the heart of the human condition… and because he generally wrote with an eye to the ‘cheap seats’. Most of his work (if you understand it) is pretty risque, and teeming with dirty jokes and puns and other ‘low’ humor.
(On that note, I highly recommend watching the stage version of the Comedy of Errors put on by the Flying Karamazov Brothers on Great Performances in the early 80s. It’s available as a torrent all over the place but due to the licensing involved can’t ever be released or rebroadcast.)
It is so incredibly saddening to realize how far we fell from once so high a place. Now having crawled back to the top, forces abound to yet again topple over our foundations.
Thank you Carl, thank you PZ, and thank you to everyone who fights each day to keep that from happening.
All those “professional” scientists who denigrate and ridicule science popularizers such as Sagan, Green, Gamow and others need to see this clip and really think about it. Keeping science restricted to a lofty priesthood will eventually bring it to nothing. The average, moderately educated citizen should be able to have the most obtuse subject explained to the point that the inherent value become apparent. Otherwise the superstitions will triumph because they are easy to understand.
It’s so weird, because last night when I got home from work I watched “Who speaks for Earth?” which is the final episode of COSMOS. I had it on my DVR and thought I should watch it.
I think, as a counter to the term ‘saint’, there ought to be a term for ‘hero, legend, genius’ in the realm of science.
Just calling these great people ‘saint’ because it already carries such weight seems a real sleight to their work.
I’m at a loss for a word that would fit nicely, although, it would be funny to just start calling these people ‘god’.
God Einstein. God Copernicus. God Feynman.
Our gods are real, and we actually know how they changed the world. We can begin replacing the historical precedent of made-up nonsense gods with real, worthy gods.
Whoop-cha.
“Fear, ignorance, and lust for power.”
Sounds like the GOP to me.
@61, I like something along the lines of professor, teacher, etc, because in the end that is really what they are doing, imparting knowledge.
Who needs fancy book learning when you have Jesus?
“20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things–and the things that are not–to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord” (1 Corinthians 1:20-31).
Irony of ironies, my wife once taught Oakland second-graders at a Catholic school called….St Cyril’s.
Their library was still functioning.
Posted by: TSL | June 13, 2008 12:41 PM
You can do all the research you want – the actual date for the destruction of this library is lost to history forever. Actually, there are no less than four different theories as to the date of the destruction of the library. There is not a human on this earth that can enter into a debate about this time period with a certainty as to when this occurred, so it is highly unlikely that someone can “trivialize” Sagan’s description of this topic by presenting ‘more accurate’ information.
As for the date of 391ce, you should know that it is only conjecture that Theodosius’ decree to destroy all pagan temples resulted in the destruction of the Great Library. The 1992 book, Life and Fate of the Ancient Library of Alexandria, written by Mostafa El-Abbadi says as much:
(bold mine for emphasis)
And the History Ecclesiastica, written about 440ce, tells of the destruction of the Serapeum in compliance with the Emperor’s decree, which did house a part of the library.
But, as the quote stated, there are justifiable doubts as to the number of texts the Serapeum actually housed at that time. So be careful before you accuse someone of having “timeline inaccuracies” when dealing with such clouded information and simply unknowable corners of antiquity.
A nice Jehovah’s witness lady approached me this morning and asked if I thought Noah’s flood really happened or if it was a myth. I liked the phrasing, at least :) “But Jesus referred to the flood as if it was a real event!” I think that was supposed to be clinching evidence somehow…
Brings back memories… I loved Sagan, but it was still fun to lampoon his delivery. Simply imitating his “Billions and billions” can bring me to happy tears. We really owe a debt to such people as Sagan and Cousteau, as they sparked our imaginations, and Sagan helped us construct B.S. detectors.
I would posit that Attenborough and Neil Degrasse Tyson are currently the keepers of the flame. E.O. Wilson, Richard Dawkins, and our own beloved professor are certainly significant voices for the scientific community, but as Randi Rhodes says, “If it’s not on the T.V., it never happened.” Now, “P.Z. on the T.V.” would be something, n’est ce pas?
I loved this part in the Q & A session.
http://www.csicop.org/si/2005-07/sagan.html
“QUESTION: Dr. Sagan, you’ve spoken about the need to, as you say, be defenders of science, or to spread the wonders of science and the value of science among those who are perhaps less well educated or have less of an appreciation of it. It seems to be quite a challenge, and I was wondering, in particular, there are many people, of course, plus the people in this room, perhaps a fairly large portion have some background in science. Amongst people who have what is called a liberal education, who may be in the arts or in the humanities, science has among many of them something of a bad name. I wonder if you have any thought on what path might be taken to remedy that situation.
SAGAN: I think one, perhaps, is to present science as it is, as something dazzling, as something tremendously exciting, as something eliciting feelings of reverence and awe, as something that our lives depend on. If it isn’t presented that way, if it’s presented in very dull textbook fashion, then of course people will be turned off. If the chemistry teacher is the basketball coach, if the school boards are unable to get support for the new school bond issue, if teachers’ salaries, especially in science, are very low, if very little is demanded of our students in terms of homework and original class time, if virtually every newspaper in the country has a daily astrology column and hardly any of them has a weekly science column, if the Sunday morning pundit shows never discuss science, if every one of the commercial television networks has somebody designated as a science reporter but he (it’s always he) never presents any science, it’s all technology and medicine, if an intelligent remark on science has never been uttered in living memory by a President of the United States, if in all of television there are no action-adventure series in which the hero or heroine is someone devoted to finding out how the universe works, if spiffy jackets attractive to the opposite sex are given to students who do well in football, basketball, and baseball but none in chemistry, physics, and mathematics, if we do all of that, then it is not surprising that a lot of people come out of the American educational system turned off, or having never experienced, science. That was a very long sentence.”
Sorry – as that quote stated… I mistakenly left it out of the above post. You can find the whole passage here:
http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/articles/ArticleView.cfm?AID=9
And just for good measure, that site also offers this:
(bold mine for emphasis)
eh. I think he’s found his optimum medium.
Now, pursuant to my own #49 above, it further occurs to me that it could be helpful to add additional context.
I have discovered, at least for myself, that an excellent tactic to debate and ‘shut down’ (at least temporarily) creationists, et al, is to know their religion better than they do. This is usually not all that difficult, as you can imagine, the loudest mouths are most often the least familiar with the details of that which they espouse. Knowing intimately the truths about the Ecumenical Councils, specifically the first Council of Nicaea, MC’d by none other than emperor Constantine himself. This is the beginning of the game rules for that brand of superstition.
Anyway, you’ll either go do the research (if you haven’t already), or you won’t. My point is that rather than even getting to the micro level that some creation vs evolution debates ‘evolve’ (haha, look, I made a funny . . . OK, never mind . . .), I attack at the macro level and push the your-superstition-is-a-sham button – ‘here’s why’ and back it up with the history. (It amazed me that the outcry from Davinci Code was about the lineage and possible fathering of a child by Jman (who’s existence AS A MAN, due to a reasonable preponderance of evidence, I do not dispute.) It *should* have been about the Council of Nicaea from which LITERALLY the c-superstition’s tenants, dates and practices were ‘decided’ – including the ‘divinity’ of Jesus.)
The factual history is my tool, rather than the science, cause I simply do not seem to be able to keep all the science micro debate tools handy in my head.
The basic lineup is this: “Don’t give me that creation crap, your superstition of choice was all sketched out and decided by a bunch of human men in 325 AD” (I prefer ce myself, or ‘common era’, but AD puts it in their language for better affect.) “You are simply attempting to argue by detailing one wall of a house that never built.” “No house, no wall.” “NEXT.” Or some such derivative. It of course works no better on the loud fanaticists than does the science. But I have found that the average c-person doesn’t have a clue about those meetings who’s outcomes determined their current-day religious practices.
Double cheers.
TSL
I gave my boyfriend Cosmos for Valentine’s Day this year. He got me a rock tumbler.
“Ye elves of hills, brooks, standing lakes and groves,
And ye that on the sands with printless foot
Do chase the ebbing Neptune and do fly him
When he comes back; you demi-puppets that
By moonshine do the green sour ringlets make,
Whereof the ewe not bites, and you whose pastime
Is to make midnight mushrooms, that rejoice
To hear the solemn curfew; by whose aid,
Weak masters though ye be, I have bedimm’d
The noontide sun, call’d forth the mutinous winds,
And ‘twixt the green sea and the azured vault
Set roaring war: to the dread rattling thunder
Have I given fire and rifted Jove’s stout oak
With his own bolt; the strong-based promontory
Have I made shake and by the spurs pluck’d up
The pine and cedar: graves at my command
Have waked their sleepers, oped, and let ’em forth
By my so potent art. But this rough magic
I here abjure, and, when I have required
Some heavenly music, which even now I do,
To work mine end upon their senses that
This airy charm is for, I’ll break my staff,
Bury it certain fathoms in the earth,
And deeper than did ever plummet sound
I’ll drown my book.”
That’s why, varlets. Thou uncouth hounds, thou blackguards, that would disparage mine art! Behold Prospero’s farewell to his craft, and despair of seeing the like again.
COSMOS was great, and so was this that came before it:
Some say The Ascent of Man was the inspiration for COSMOS. What could COSMOS inspire now?
I doubt you’re telling much to people who frequent this site that they didn’t already know. Besides being the modus operandi of debate here, that’s also just good common sense.
But then again, you can present all the rational evidence you want, but don’t expect to “shut down” a true creationist in any way, especially using something as disputable as history. After all, their fervor is based on faith, which is defined as belief without proof.
To #66 & 70, brokenSoldier,
I do my best to mitigate certainty-insitance in my own pontifications with qualifiers, such as “best bet.” You Sir, however have laid it all out well. There are indeed four theories of said destruction. Clearly your history knowledge beats mine. Perhaps it would have been best to just make the point that what our esteemed Mr Sagan spoke to, is in fact disputed. So going about using it as a certainty, regardless of the esteemed source, could put one in a bind of fighting dates rather than content. Be educated, be prepared.
It is in fact *because* of the esteemed source – Sagan in that clip – that I could see his expressed time-line being used by one here as undisputed fact, only then to be stuck fighting a date debate should they have mistakenly taken on a history-buffish c-person.
Hmmmm. I sense redundancy above . . .
So then have I at least somewhat redeemed myself then?
Cheers.
Mmmmm. I’m thinking perhaps I shall send my resume to the:
DEPARTMENT OF REDUNDANCY DEPARTMENT
for consideration of a mid-management level position.
CLEARLY, I have the credentials . . . “How many ‘then’s’ does it take to make a sentence?”
TSL
Like I told you at your talk in Seattle, Cosmos is my favorite television program. I have the DVD set and lately I put it on instead of music when I’m trying to fall asleep.
I really miss Carl Sagan, and wish I had been able to meet him before he died. I’m not sure if we currently have someone who has taken the reins from him in the area of scientific outreach, but I think Phil Plait does a fantastic job in this arena.
I guess it’s more of a “distributed computing” effort by all of you high-profile scientists now that we have the Web.
Posted by: TSL | June 13, 2008 2:58 PM
That’s a valid point, but Sagan’s repeated emphasis of the importance of research and skepticism in the pursuit of knowledge in that series makes me seriously doubt that someone who is truly paying attention to him would do such a thing. And given the type of minds that are regulars on this site (I’m referring to those likely to be debating against creationists), the possibility of that happening is even lower, IMHO.
I wonder when the Churches will apologise for the murder of Hypatia and the destruction of the library?
In English, it’s all Shakespeare all the time. –
David Marjanović, OM
Not in Scotland. No true Scotsman prefers Shakespeare to Robbie Burns!
Where, oh where are the Sagans, Burkes, Bronowskis, Goulds, Pelikans, and Boorstins of today? Realizing that they left no heirs makes me want to break down and cry.
True Scotsmen don’t speak English, now do they?
Reading the book Cosmos (I’ve still only seen fragments of the TV version) as a kid was a life-changing event for me. Great, gentle man.
Speaking of attacks on libraries, I should point out that the librarians of today are no shrinking violets. They have been at the forefront of resistance to the Patriot Act. To cite one specific case: A few weeks ago, I attended a talk given by Amy Goodman and her brother David Goodman about their new book, Standing up to the Madness: Ordinary Heroes in Extraordinary Times. One powerful chapter focuses on the people from The Library Connection in Connecticut who fought a National Security Letter. The best part was about the first guy to be presented with the Letter, who then went to his board members for support: [to the best of my recollection] “He knew that if he was going to take on the entire US security state, he would need at least three other librarians.” :)
David Attenborough is not dead. Neither is James Burke, come to think of it.
They’re still out there, doing things.
There’s a practical answer for “why Shakespeare?” as well.
He had the good fortune to write in the dialect of the part of London that ended up being the basis for modern English. Try reading any of his contemporaries: you won’t be able to understand them unless you have sufficient linguistic study in your background. Most of Shakespeare can be understood today, at least in general terms, without a full translation standing by for reference.
There are so many ways that valuable information/culture gets lost. Libraries might burn, or languages change, or reports written in WordPerfect and saved on 5 1/4″ floppies become unretrievable.
***
***
Where, oh where are the Sagans, Burkes, Bronowskis, Goulds, Pelikans, and Boorstins of today? Realizing that they left no heirs makes me want to break down and cry.
***
David Attenborough is not dead. Neither is James Burke, come to think of it.
They’re still out there, doing things.
***
Indeed. And I, for one, would like to see Stephen Fry start an analogous movement or series which looks into things *deeply* and *insightfully*. His show “QI” does a reasonably good job at bringing quite interesting things to the world. Unfortunately, he’s got some minor facts quite wrong before.
Shakespeare’s ghost @ 74 Keep him forever alive!
re #69:
Does being dead disqualify one for the office of President of the United States? I’d vote for him. Not that I can, coming from the 51st state…
If there was anyone I could ‘do a Lazarus on’ I would choose Sagan. (Sorry Dad.)
sometimes when i’m in a bad situation I turn on Cosmos and think about the vastness of the universe and how insignificant my stupid worries are and I get so calm and happy – Cosmos really is that great –
Carl Sagan was so awesome.
I had the happy experience of watching Carl Sagan’s Cosmos the first time it came out on PBS.
The segment above is one of the most moving of the entire series. I saw it then as both a warning and a message.
A warning against letting the forces of ignorance and unreason win, and a message that one of the best ways of doing this was to popularize science and the arts — to get it out there among the people, and not leave it confined to those who develop it. Had Sophocles’ plays been widely distributed no one could have wiped them out in one single act of destruction.If Heron of Alexandria had made an effort to get his inventions out there for the public to use it almost certainly would have resulted in an acceleration of further technological development.
Sagan also warns that none of these people in the past ever confronted the ignorance and superstition of their day.
They could have used a few men like Sagan.
Vidar @ #54:
Sorry about that. Vidar is a norwegian name so I asked if you are Norwegian. You clearly are not. The second question was which congregation you belonged to. I wanted to know a bit about the christian congregations in Norway. I guess you wouldn’t know anything about those.
Vidar @ #54:
Sorry about that. Vidar is a norwegian name so I asked if you are Norwegian. You clearly are not. The second question was which congregation you belonged to. I wanted to know a bit about the christian congregations in Norway. I guess you wouldn’t know anything about those.
How old these comments make me feel!
COSMOS was an amazing achievement and I remember talking about every episode at work the next day.
Sagan and Stephen Jay Gould were and remain my heroes.
Poignant. Thanks PZ.
I weep for the wasted potential of the human race.
#32
I never saw ‘cosmos’. My parents were religious
fundamentalists, and instilled in me a distaste for
science, that I have been able to shrug off only fairly
recently. I’m currently devouring ‘the demon-haunted
world’.
I’m in the same boat. I’m actually discovering in me a real love and appreciation for science that I feel was quashed by my upbringing. I feel slightly resentful at the moment because now I feel I’m beyond an age of capitalising on that interest.
That may have been the other St Cyril.
——————
Well, when the spelling is modernized and a few other things are glossed over…
From here:
——————
In a slave economy, where not even the Gallic mowing machine stayed in use? Unlikely.
Well, thank you. What an extraordinarily sad note to go to bed on.
Like with Feynmann I only learnt of Sagan after his death. For a curious kid I certainly managed to keep myself horribly uneducated.
I think I’ll have to treat myself to some boxsets from Amazon or Ebay before long.
Another person who eminently carries on the tradition of Sagan is Dr. Michio (Mike) Kaku. He is a gifted physicist who was a co-founder of string theory, but can make the headiest of scientific subjects easily understood.
For those of you not familiar with him, do yourselves an immense favor and visit his website, listen to his radio show, read his books. I had the good fortune to study under him in college, and am certainly far better off having had that experience.
#49, #66,
The fact that we’ve lost so much information about the Great Library that we don’t even know when it was destroyed seems to prove Sagan’s underlying point.
I think it was James Burke who said that every ship that docked in Alexandria had to loan all of its books to be copied, and that is one reason the library collection was so vast.
Anyone else remember reading this, in Connections?
It’s a repeating tragedy that it almost always seems to be the stupidest people who are the most confident and arrogant about what they believe to be true.
Unfortunately they also often make the most successful politicians because they can most successfully connect with ‘grass roots’ opinion. Hence the tragedy of the library of Alexandria.
Bishop Cyril needed shooting, rooting, and electrocuting for what he did to the state of learning in Alexandria, and hence to the rest of the world!
Please allow me to slightly re-arrange what I would like to have done to Bishop Cyril of Alexandria had I been given the opportunity.
I wouldn’t have done the first one personally, but I probably would have been happy to watch : )
Bishop Cyril needed ‘rooting, shooting, and electrocuting’ for what he did to the state of learning in Alexandria, and hence to the rest of the world!
@ 101:
(unabashedly copied from Wikipedia, but I remember this from Connections, too:)
A story concerns how its collection grew so large: by decree of Ptolemy III of Egypt, all visitors to the city were required to surrender all books, scrolls as well as any form of written media in any language in their possession which, according to Galen, were listed under the heading “books of the ships”; these writings were then swiftly copied by official scribes. Sometimes the copies were so precise that the originals were put into the Library, and the copies were delivered to the unsuspecting previous owners.
(from Episode 2 of Connections Series 1, “Death in the Morning”.)
re #61: How about “sage”? It has the advantage of having approximately the right meaning already; it just needs to be cannonized by usage.
The plural of Sage, of course, would be Sagan. It would also make a great plural noun: “A Sagan of geniuses.”
I didn’t realize Burke was still alive. I haven’t seen anything by him in years.
Attenborough is still at the top of his game after what, 50 years? Last I heard, he was planning to quit appearing on-camera, which is hardly surprising given the difficulty of trekking to the wild places of the world and the fact that he’s 82.
I have to emphasise a point made earlier, this clip also contains a warning for science. Your hard won knowledge will be lost if you make no effort to explain it to the masses. When the fundamentalists come knocking at your lab door with burning torch in hand, no one will be there to defend you or sadly even care. This process appears to be starting already which makes this clip very timely.
I use Hypatia’s story to introduce my GED students–usually all women–to their pre-algebra unit of study. The effect is electrifying, one of those happily spine-tingly moments that teachers can experience when students suddenly shift their perspective of an entire body of material.
I may add this video to the course, too. The lessons that Alverant mentioned–the dangers of hoarding knowledge while allowing our neighbors to embrace ignorance–may take on a new kind of importance for GED students.
I weep.
I weep for all the precious knowledge.
I weep for all the precious time.
All lost to ignorance.
All wasted by people scared of reality and by their deeds of folly.
Oh, how far we could reach, if knowledge were not a sin and ignorance not a virtue.
And so my hope is this: That through my tears people will see.
#8:
> Some scientists tend to be dismissive of the humanities
Not. (OK, but a bit just like the tired line about «some biologists are not “darwinists”, you know?»)
On the other hand, most humanities’ scholars, embued in pomo claptrap, tend to be dismissive of science (and of pre-pomo humanities, too, come to think of it).
@106 (themadlolscientist): Not only is Burke still alive, he’s working on an Internet-based project called the Knowledge Web (k-web.org).
Personally, I think that a Web-based format would be the most comprehensive method for Burke & co. to illustrate their views on the interconnectedness of science, culture, etc….although admittedly it won’t be nearly as engaging as his Connections broadcasts. (I remember when the Discover Science Channel was just starting up in the late 90’s, and they had so little fresh programming that they just ran marathons of Connections 2 thru 4 over and over…great stuff. We need more programming like that today.)
I miss Carl. My Dad and I used to watch Cosmos together. I remember the first time I learned about the Library of Alexandria in school. I cried. I think it was in 3rd grade, maybe. I understood that there was a near immeasurable amount of learning, and science, and art, and literature that was destroyed in its burning. I remember seeing Carl’s description of that loss that you’ve linked to in that video, and it still makes me cry. I mourn it.
Is there an award named for him at all? Can someone win a ‘Sagan’ for something truly excellent relating to science of some form?
If not there should be.
I finally tracked down a copy of Cosmos, it should make for some great viewing this weekend :D
Sadly, I don’t remember that guy – at least not directly. But he was one of those thinkers that my father championed. I wasn’t yet born when Cosmos ran, but I’ve read his works and his autobiography. The Demon-Haunted World remains one of my favorites and was the first book that taught me that it was OK to be skeptical about the fantastic claims others made about creation and existence.
Once semester during high school English class we somehow got to discussing Sagan himself. I confirmed that he was an atheist and my teacher – who was just a little bit left of Christian nutcase – said something to the effect of: “Well, we know where he went after he died, then.” To which I replied: “The same place as Ghandi, I suppose.” That seemed to quiet the discussion…