Who do you trust to tell you lies? »« Evolution of a feminist

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  1. borax says

    Every time a man masturbates, he is committing genocide. Also, I cannot sleep just thinking of all those poor babies that die in a latex sheath. Every sperm deserves an ovum.

  2. says

    Speaking as someone adopted, I’ve always puzzled over the argument that I should read some moral conclusion from the fact that my biological mother carried me term. I’m quite glad of it, of course, just as I am quite glad she had sex outside marriage. But any moral argument from the prerequisites for my own existence applies just as much to one as the other. Had she chosen otherwise, in either case, I never would have been born. And I don’t see how it makes a difference to me which of the many choices and accidents leading to my birth had gone differently, if I never had been born.

  3. says

    Jesus Christ. For a while we were getting Mormon ads. Now I’m seeing a Biola ad. (Yes, those first two words are meant literally, as in: “Jesus, GTFO”.

  4. says

    rturpin

    Speaking as someone adopted, I’ve always puzzled over the argument that I should read some moral conclusion from the fact that my biological mother carried me term. I’m quite glad of it, of course, just as I am quite glad she had sex outside marriage.

    Actually, I wished my parents hadn’t had me. Seriously, they should not have had children. And since both my sister and me were planned and wanted I think “they should have put us up for adoption” isn’t a valid answer.
    That’s not to challenge your experience, please don’t read it as that. I’m just using it to contrast your story with mine.

  5. Menyambal --- inesteemable says

    Missouri? I started my day with unprotected sex, but it wasn’t the kind that could lead to reproduction.

    Indonesia punishes masturbation with beheading, BTW.

  6. Sastra says

    A friend of mine who is Mormon (and a strong advocate for large families) once told me the theology behind the Mormons’ preoccupation with having lots of children. It wasn’t the rationalization of the Quiverfull movement — that a godly woman must try to have as many godly offspring as possible to make more warriors or slaveys for Christ. Maybe that motivation is also there, but that’s not the one she brought up.

    Apparently Mormons believe the babies already exist. They are hanging around in some sort of limbo state of existence, anxiously waiting their opportunity to be born. If YOU (or your husband) decides to limit your family (“five children are enough”) then there is an actual person you have harmed. You took away that child’s chance to live a worthy life on earth and thus obtain rewards in the afterlife. In fact, that child know this, and is now this very minute having their little heart broken.

    “Mommy … Daddy …no want me?”

    Okay, I don’t think she was quite this explicit. But the supernatural is the place where essences exist without cause and thus it’s perfectly plausible (meaning one can imagine) that the children people have had lived in a pre-existence and needed to wait around for God’s plan to be fulfilled. Add to that the idea that people can thwart God’s plan by being stubborn and disobedient ( but Omnipotence: yes, I know) and you have the plaintive wails of not just the unborn, but the never-even-conceived.

    Is this standard Mormon doctrine? I don’t know. Maybe Lynna can enlighten us. But I also remember this same friend being very upset about the false doctrine of some of her fellow Right to Life advocates, that they thought aborted babies were automatically damned to Hell. Mormon theology, with its belief that all people have been around before conception, eliminates this horror.

  7. Esteleth, statistically significant to p ≤ 0.001 says

    I read a blogpost ages ago (I think it was from Vyckie Garrison over at No Longer Quivering) where an ex-QF woman shared a message she’d gotten. She’d been lamenting her many years of adherence to QF, and how destructive this adherence was. The message was to the effect of, “So, what child of yours do you wish wasn’t around? Do your children know you don’t love them and wish you’d never borne them?”

    How utterly heartless! If there’s any thread I can find linking the writings and statements of ex-QF wives and mothers, it is I realized how destructive QF was when I saw the harm it was doing to my children; I left the movement for their sake. There are exceptions, of course, but that keeps showing up again and again.


    I’m the product of fertility treatments. My parents agreed to try one last round before they gave up and looked into adopting. Needless to say, it worked and here I am. What if it hadn’t, and my parents adopted?

    Well, they would have adopted. And I wouldn’t be here. The child they adopted would be able to offer judgement and commentary on the topic, and I wouldn’t be able to offer anything, because I wouldn’t exist. This knowledge doesn’t distress me – why should it? If I didn’t exist, I would exactly be capable of lamenting my non-existence.

  8. says

    There’s a weird secular version of QF that exists on national levels where people get all worried that the people of their country (or some other country of interest) aren’t having enough children. Because that leaves room for more immigration, or there will be less of the right kind of people, or there won’t be a big enough tax base to support the previous generation via programs like Social Security, or employers won’t have a high enough unemployment rate to suit them.

    Reproduction obsession is so very weird.

  9. Richard Smith says

    Sastra (#9):

    “Mommy … Daddy …no want me?”

    Thanks. That was close enough to it that I now have a whiny little voice wheedling in my head, “Why-y-y-y-y did you ki-i-i-i-ill me, Mommy?” Eurgh.

  10. says

    @Sastra #9

    Is this standard Mormon doctrine?

    I think so. I remember hearing similar things from the missionaries I talked to. The highest levels of heaven require having first had a physical body, so you can be baptized and such. The missionaries highlighted this as a reason for why it was so important to convert while you were still alive, but the logic flows beyond that. By preventing the pre-existing soul from being born, you’re taking away their chance at being a proper Mormon.

  11. Menyambal --- inesteemable says

    I recall a conservative arguing that having more babies was the best possible stimulus for the economy.

  12. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    Menyambal,

    Of course. It’s a common argument: “We already have too many retired people, if young people don’t start popping out more babies, where is your pension going to come from?”

  13. Alverant says

    #9

    That is a horrifying example of abuse on people. It’s nothing more than blackmail. There’s no way to win because there’s always more of the pre-children-ghosts to force parents to choose between them and the health of their existing family.

  14. Rey Fox says

    It always is kind of funny when they try to appeal to selfishness. “What if your mother aborted you?” Well, she might have had a different kid instead. Who am I to deny that little snowflake a chance?

  15. wcorvi says

    You people are godless heathens! The REAL reason the baby comes along is, it is GOD’S PUNISHMENT!!! For having sex. YES, and when you have an abortion, or use birth control, or heaven forbid just masterbate, you are THWARTING GOD’S WILL! You are shirking his punishment. Why do you think the bible refers to it as ‘the dirty deed’???

    Realize here and now – god WILL get you, he is a damning god who hates you, and he will get you for this. (grin)

  16. moarscienceplz says

    Indonesia punishes masturbation with beheading, BTW.

    You sure about that? From Yahoo Answers:

    I am Indonesian, and I never heard such punishment here, even in the old days.

    you will get punished if you do the masturbation in front of public, if you do it in your private room, there is no law can punish you for that.

    Where did you get your information….?

    I second that last question.

  17. David Marjanović says

    Queensland.

    Indonesia punishes masturbation with beheading, BTW.

    Evidence?
    (I dare not quite google for it.)

    slaveys for Christ

    There is in fact a Greek name Christodoulos, “Christ-slave”.

    Compare Arabic 3abd Allāh (or more Classically 3abdu ‘llāh), “slave of God”.

    Apparently Mormons believe the babies already exist. They are hanging around in some sort of limbo state of existence, anxiously waiting their opportunity to be born.

    Yep. Their souls aren’t conceived by you, they’re conceived by Heavenly Father and His unnamed, uncounted wives. You only conceive bodies for them.

    Why do you think the bible refers to it as ‘the dirty deed’???

    (Just in case: of course it doesn’t.)

  18. What a Maroon, el papa ateo says

    @wcorvi, 19

    Why do you think the bible refers to it as ‘the dirty deed’???

    Because god is an AC/DC fan?

  19. Menyambal --- inesteemable says

    David M., I can’t recall exactly where I found the bit about beheading for masturbation in Indonesia. It was online, as I found it AFTER I got back from Indonesia, where, on advise of counsel, I won’t say anything further :) .

    It was an official site, and I will have to check my other computer.

  20. unclefrogy says

    that video was going along fine enough then it stepped off into comedy gold when the next image was a women with a knife and dead child I don’t remember what was said after that because I was laughing to loud to hear it.

    uncle frogy

  21. Rich Woods says

    @Waht A Maroon #23:

    Because god is an AC/DC fan?

    Well, obviously. He put us on the Highway to Hell.

  22. anuran says

    Menyambal – the penalty for masturbation in Indonesia is decidedly NOT decapitation.
    http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/0917_embassy.pdf

    28 May 2009 10:43 AM
    To:Mark Franklin
    Cc:raudin anwar; Aan
    Subject:Re: ABC Inquiry
    Dear Mark,
    Thank you for your inquiry, indeed it is a bit strange one, but again thank you for your concern about
    that issue.
    The said article is really misleading and exaggerative, for not saying we consider it as a black
    campaign about our country.
    Concerning your inquiry, our explanations are as follows:
    Q:
    Is this claims true, that the penalty for masturbation is decapitation?
    A:
    It is totally not true that we imposed decapitation for masturbation penalty.
    Q :
    Are there any legal penalties for masturbation? If so what are they?
    A:
    Indonesian Penal Code Article 281 stated that for those who purposely and explicitly
    conduct an immoral behavior will be punished max 2 year and 8 month imprisonment.
    As far as we are concerned, similar penalties for such activities, which are exposing him/herself in a public place (including masturbation) are also imposed in other countries, including Australia

    I Hope the above explanation will meet your inquiries.
    Regards, Andalusia
    ANDALUSIA TRIBUANA TUNGGA DEWI
    SECOND SECRETARY/INFORMATION
    EMBASSY OF THE REPUBLIC OF INDONESIA

    Original article

  23. Cal says

    @ Sastra #9 – Growing up Mormon we were taught that we all existed as Spirits before coming to the earth and we were chosen to be with specific families. Of course the more valiant spirits were chosen to be born into good Mormon families. There was a element of “abandoning” spirits if you limited your family. Bit those would still need to be born, they would just be sent to another family. I can’t remember which horrible Mormon musical* (yes, they do exist) actually had this as a theme but it is fairly standard insider Mormon doctrine. It is not discussed much with new people being taught, but is definitely a strong theme in the actual practice.

    * – it was either “Saturday’s Warrior” or “My Turn on Earth”

  24. robro says

    OMG…I’m so ashamed! I just haven’t kept up my procreation schedule, and now it’s probably too late. But then, one baby was plenty for me. After nearly 22 years, I’m still recovering…and I’m the dad!

    Some psychics I know believe that babies already exist and hover around potential parents. If a young woman got a reading it was almost a given that one of the readers would see “baby beings” around her. Didn’t hear that so much about men…hmmm. It’s tied in with “past lives” and similar rubbish, of course.

  25. Rey Fox says

    Some psychics I know believe that babies already exist and hover around potential parents.

    Get me an oversized flyswatter.

  26. robster says

    Do they grow spectacular hooch in the Mormon’s home state? They must do, you’d need to be completely stoned to 1: Make up such absurd nonsense regards kiddie spirits (or whatever) floating about waiting to be “born” and 2: Believing such silliness. It’s amazing that those tainted with mormonism are able to function in a modern society. Not seeking to be unkind to consumers of the herb superb.

  27. thewhollynone says

    Yeah, it just goes to show that people who will believe that afterlife con game will believe almost any foolish thing, won’t they.

  28. says

    Apparently Mormons believe the babies already exist. They are hanging around in some sort of limbo state of existence, anxiously waiting their opportunity to be born. If YOU (or your husband) decides to limit your family (“five children are enough”) then there is an actual person you have harmed.

    I’ve had some fun with playing with the anti-abortion/birth control arguments and the hazards of “what if” questions they ask, particularly the “what if your parents chose not to have you?”

    Butterfly effect: There are more factors that go into making “me” than birth order and parentage, so arguments that I wouldn’t be here if my parents used birth control, abortion, or whatever tend to fall flat. If they changed any factor involved in their sex act, there’s a good chance some other sperm would be the “lucky” one. Even the sex of the parallel offspring could be different, since it’s essentially a 50/50 chance. Change the month of conception, and it’s a different egg cell, too. The environment may be similar, but look at siblings. My brother and I have our similarities, but we also have stark differences. Change just about anything surrounding my conception and upbringing, and my parallel universe counterpart could diverge significantly. If parallel universes exist, the average sample probably wouldn’t be as eerily similar as they are in science fiction. If anything, I’d expect a truly random sample to vary wildly just thanks to evolution, let alone cosmology. If birth control is wrong because it “murders” a hypothetical future person, than pretty much everything we do is “murder” because every decision we make closes off certain possibilities and opens others.

    I’m reminded of one newage woo who tried to use the butterfly effect to argue that god or whatever chose to create us specifically because it’s so absurdly unlikely that the dice came up “just right” to produce us. But it’s not like there’s anything special about this particular version of reality. He’s only able to be egotistical about his existence because if the dice came up differently, he wouldn’t be here to complain. Someone else would be here, marveling at their good fortune and obvious specialness, instead.

    Stable Time Loop: If we were in contact with time travelers from the future who depend on us to conceive them lest we create a temporal paradox that unleashes eldritch horrors from beyond the stars, maybe there’d be something to asking the “what if.” But we don’t have any contact with our future offspring, nor do we have contact with our parents’ past selves. Those of us who already exist without needing to resort to time travel don’t have to go back in time to convince our parents to do the nasty in the pasty. If we did, we wouldn’t be here to experience the need.

  29. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! says

    ::peeks in, sheepishly::
    >ahem<
    (is this thing on?)

    To the creators of "Don't not have sex":
    What is the recommended course of action for those of who do not engage in sexual activities that lead to teh babeez? I am fairly certain that any sex I have with another guy, amazing though it may be, will absolutely fail to produce Jesus Slaves. So, do I not have sex?

    Oh, oh, and since masturbation is killing Teh Babeez, do I have to stop that too?
    (Who do I send the bill to? I shudder to think of how blue the berries will be in a few decades. )