[Lounge #392]
This is the lounge. You can discuss anything you want, but you will do it kindly. I told you I was going to steal that image.
Status: Heavily Moderated; Previous thread
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
rq:
January 1st, 2013 at 1:58 pm
Now that’s what I call portcullised.
For mythbri in previous thread:
So many *hugs* for your cousin, and for you, and for the baby, and most of all for your cousin – I hope she recovers. I also hope the best for the baby (xe deserves a chance and I’m glad xe seems to be ok health-wise and I also hope xe won’t get the passing-around treatment). But most *hugs* to your cousin.
Improbable Joe:
January 1st, 2013 at 2:02 pm
mythbri:
Best wishes for your cousin, I hope that this marks the lowest point for her, and things just get better from here.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 1st, 2013 at 2:05 pm
Oh, portcullised! How exciting! (Yes, I have no life.)
Dalillama:
Ouch. My condolences. My son has Comcast for his cable and internet and they make it rather clear that they can (and will) charge whatever they want for service that works less than 25 days a month because there’s nowhere else to go.
SallyStrange: Elite Femi-Fascist Genius:
January 1st, 2013 at 2:07 pm
@ Joe – I’m so glad your 2013 is also going well.
@ Esteleth – what an honor for you! I’m jealous. All I got from Thunderfoot was studied indifference about the rape threat issued against me on his website.
redpanda:
January 1st, 2013 at 2:19 pm
PZ, I was talking to someone about unintelligent design the other day and had an idea. I’d flesh it out myself, but I don’t have the background in embryology/evo devo to do it properly.
I was recently on a pediatric cardiology rotation as a medical student, and I saw several newborns with crippling congenital heart defects like tetralogy of fallot, transposition of the great arteries, and persistent truncus arteriosis that all result from a failure of the embryo’s truncus arteriosus to be divided properly by the developing aorticopulmonary septum.
Isn’t the fact that this division has to happen (rather than the aorta and pulmonary arteries each forming separately) a result of our fish ancestors originally having an undivided circulatory system?
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cphy.c090001/abstract
This is the part I don’t get, because I don’t know how to describe this without it sounding like recapitulation theory.
If we were intelligently designed, why wouldn’t the designer have designed an embryology specifically for each unique creature? How many children die every year because of lazy “design” like this?
Does this argument have any merit?
carlie:
January 1st, 2013 at 2:27 pm
Is that like wonder twins power activate?
rq:
January 1st, 2013 at 2:41 pm
Socio-gen
I’ve been portcullised twice… Excited both times! ;)
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 1st, 2013 at 2:52 pm
rq:
Oh good, I’m not the only one!
—
Is it breaking the Lounge rules to say I wish I believed in voodoo so I could make a little Edward Gemmer doll and sew its little fingers together so it could never ever type another word?
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:01 pm
I don’t think so. That is ever so much more polite than my wishes.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:02 pm
There actually is a place to talk shit about other commenters on Pharyngula: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/12/24/thunderdome-13/
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:03 pm
First, let me get this out of the way.
HA! HA!
It seems that Sean Hannity has lost half of his audience since Barack Obama won his second term.
I want a conservative doll that says “Math is hard.” when you pull the string.
Should that figure be Sean Hannity, Karl Rove or someone else?
The Divine Phallusy:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:07 pm
So… This has been pestering me for a while now. Why in the name of Odin’s ravens is there a Liberty University ad on FTB?!
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:08 pm
Maybe you should look up how the ad server works.
(hint: it generates ads based on your internet surfing habits)
Beatrice:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:09 pm
I’m now remembering that X-Files episode where someone made a voodoo doll of Scully and she went blind.
I miss X-Files. Loved the series when I was a kid.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:10 pm
Because the advert company that FtB contracts with does not filter adverts per site. Instead, they are filtered via relevant words. This is why, during the discussions about gun culture in the USA, there were shitloads of gun and concealed carry adverts.
Beatrice:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:12 pm
Ah, it’s Theef. From 2000? Strange, I thought it was one of the older ones, not season 7.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:17 pm
The Divine Phallusy, AdBlock is your friend.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:24 pm
Ogvorbis:
I’m thinking worse…
—
sgbm:
Thanks. Really, I just needed to get that one bit out as I was writing a response to him. The rest was mostly incoherent cursing.
—
Beatrice:
That was one of my favorite series. Well, until it got all strange with Scully being kidnapped and the baby… I lost the threads of the plot and never cared enough to figure it out.
chigau (違う):
January 1st, 2013 at 3:26 pm
source
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:28 pm
chigau:
Oops. I’ll be more careful in the future to avoid that.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:30 pm
Sorry, SGBM & chigau. My bad.
Beatrice:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:35 pm
Socio-gen,
I started skipping a lot of episodes later in the series.
I would love to watch at least the first two or three seasons again. There were some reruns a couple of years ago, but it soon became a bit too much to watch it every single night for weeks.
reynoldhall:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:38 pm
To “redpanda” at number 5
What those people will likely do, is blame those defect on “The Fall” (ie. it’s man’s fault, because of “original sin”).
Never mind of course that “god” didn’t have to allow defects to innocent babies to punish Adam and Eve…that’s just hurting someone who had no say in that matter, never mind that most people, even with this “original sin” malarky are born without birth defects, never mind that some people are actually born with actual talents, etc.
Beatrice:
January 1st, 2013 at 3:50 pm
Good night, all. Have fun in the Neither bullied nor cajoled thread with Edward
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 1st, 2013 at 4:08 pm
Much as I hate to do this, I am casting myself upon the mercy of the Horde. In a lovely holiday surprise, it turns out that I can’t pay the electric this month. This is due to a combination of rising rates, a really poorly insulated apartment, and a husband with arthritis aggravated by the cold. If folks could assist at all, it would be hugely appreciated. Sorry everyone.
mythbri:
January 1st, 2013 at 4:23 pm
Thanks on behalf of my cousin for all of the well-wishing, from everyone on this thread and the previous one.
My cousin will be in the hospital for four days and have at least a three-month recovery from the emergency c-section, but the doctors don’t think that she’s suffered any permanent neurological damage.
The baby is fine. Small, and will be in the NICU for a little bit, but he should be good. His adoptive parents are there waiting to take him home with them.
I hope his life as an adopted child is much different than his birth-mother’s.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 1st, 2013 at 4:29 pm
mythbri:
Safehugs for you and yours.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 1st, 2013 at 4:30 pm
Just have to point it out, I really hate false graciousness.
rq:
January 1st, 2013 at 4:43 pm
mythbri
*more hugs* and thanks for the update!
Dalillama
I’ll be up in the morning; how can I help?
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 1st, 2013 at 5:07 pm
Dalilama: how long do you have?
cicely (The Lesser of Two Measles):
January 1st, 2013 at 5:07 pm
Let’s start the New Year right, with a huge pile of self-serve *hugs&chocolate&booze&bacon&books*.
-
The Husband is much, much better; so much so that it can’t have been flu, and we are instead blaming the late night, post-Game Taco Bell.
-
*pouncehug* for Hekuni Cat, and *hugs* for Tony.
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Extra-large serving of *hugs* for mythbri. I’m so sorry about your cousin; I hope she and the baby make it okay.
And this part:
hit me with an extra pang. My youngest sister’s ex did that, to their son, who is also ADHD; and no one relative was willing to keep him for more than a couple of months. What a mess!
-
-
That is one awesomely cute octopus! It belongs on a tee shirt. And posters.
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I miss it, too, and I was far from a kid when it aired. I loved it that the woman was the one approaching things rationally, and the man was the one who did the intuitive thing. Plus, DD was very easy to look at.
:)
I do feel that it hung on just a season or two past its Sell By date, though.
-
Dalillama, all I can offer is *hugs* and sympathy. Sorry.
:(
-
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 1st, 2013 at 5:14 pm
Last night, when I was in the middle of my drunken music linking, I made the mistake of reading the comments on the Tegan And Sara video. One would think that perhaps I would be used to that kind of bullshit by now but it seems that all any of the assclams comment there could go on about is that they are lesbians.
Just an other reminder to avoid the comment there.
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 1st, 2013 at 5:23 pm
Speaking of The X-Files, I’m reading this crossover fic (XF/”The Stand”) that is just… wow. Amazing. Well-written, very King-ish in voice and style, and the characterization is dead on.
If anyone is interested, here’s the link: Last One Standing
Count me in the “missing The X-Files” crowd.
Oh. It is available on Netflix instant watch.
chigau (違う):
January 1st, 2013 at 5:56 pm
mythbri
Thanks for the update.
*hugs* as needed
MikeG:
January 1st, 2013 at 6:01 pm
Rye bourbon-maple-pomegranate-mustard glazed ham, cornbread, black eyed peas with snaps, and mustard greens.
Happy new year, y’all.
If last year was shitty or awesome, may this one be better in every way.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 1st, 2013 at 6:17 pm
MikeG:
Sounds, er, interesting. Pomegranate?
For dinner this evening, ragù bolognese con salsiccia sopra la pasta gemelli. (Tomato sauce with sausage over squiddly diddlies.)
ednaz:
January 1st, 2013 at 6:40 pm
mythbri – It is very good to hear your cousin is recovering and the baby is fine. Many many hugs for you and your cousin.
morgan:
January 1st, 2013 at 6:46 pm
My New Year Soup: (Can easily be turned into a vegetarian variation.)
Four large smoked ham hocks simmered for about a day in about 3 quarts no-or-low sodium veggie broth. When everything falls off the hock bones remove all from the broth, separate meat, discard fat and bones, return meat to broth. Add one large can Juanita’s Hominy, a couple hands full of chopped carrots, two large chopped celery stalks, some chopped flat leaf parsley, 4 large bok choy leaves chopped, juice of one lemon, several chopped garlic cloves, several sprigs of fresh thyme, a tablespoon of dried Summer Savory, a heaping tablespoon of Gebhardt’s Chili Powder, two chopped leeks OR one chopped yellow onion. I don’t think I’ve forgotten anything. If I have I’ll post it later. This is the first time I’ve written down this recipe. Anyway, let this joyous stuff simmer for 1-2 hours and adjust seasonings as desired. You will probably increase the amount of liquid along the way.
Seasoning hint – you probably will not need salt, but if you do, use kosher. If pepper, fresh ground. If you like things a bit sweet sneak in a tad of maple syrup.
Serve garnished with either a good dollop of sour cream or a sprinkling of good parmesan cheese.
Enjoy!
This is the “I’ve got blood sugar issues” version. The “carbs don’t hurt me” version involves omitting the hominy and adding a one pound bag of “15 varities of beans.”
sueboland:
January 1st, 2013 at 6:56 pm
I have a question for scientist types and this is the only thread I feel comfortable doing it. I am the furthest thing possible from a scientist but a regular lurker on Pharyngula.
OK, can someone please explain this weather type question to me. I get it about solstices and equinoxes and axial tilt and all that but what I don’t get is : Say Dec 21 is the summer solstice (OK) and therefore midsummer, why isn’t it really in the middle of summer. I mean, why are the hottest months Dec, Jan, Feb instead of Nov, Dec, Jan. And like that for winter too? Coldest months should be May, June, July but are Jun, July, Aug. What gives?
I hope you catch my drift. (teehee).
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 1st, 2013 at 6:58 pm
mythbri:
Glad your cousin and the baby are doing okay. *hugs* to both of them.
—
cicely:
That was something I liked from the beginning. Scully was all “Science!” while Mulder was the guy reading Weekly Weird News.
—
WMDKitty:
Bookmarked!
—
Mike G:
*looks sadly at her ham sammich*
I’ll have what you’re having.
—
Ogvorbis:
Or this.
chigau (違う):
January 1st, 2013 at 7:08 pm
sueboland #39
because the calender (those paper ones on your wall) are stupid and archaic.
The Earth is fine.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:11 pm
sueboland:
If I remember right from 8th grade science class, there’s a lag between cooling and heating after the equinoxes. (Similar to how a room doesn’t cool immediately after you turn the thermostat down or warm up immediately after you turn it up.)
John Morales:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:14 pm
sueboland, here is your answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer#Timing
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:17 pm
Gah, I meant “solstices,” not equinoxes.
birgerjohansson:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:18 pm
Sueboland, as Socio-gen remarked there is considerable lag.
Thermal inertia. Huge bodies of water to warm/cool. Snow insulates, so it must melt before the ground thaws up, et cetera. And air masses move around bringing warm or cold air with them so it gets all interconnected.
.
It is easier if you are an animal adapted to living in a cave, you have the same temperature all year round because of the thermal inertia of the rocks above you.
birgerjohansson:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:22 pm
Janine,
Nelson vs Sean Hannity :)
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 1st, 2013 at 7:22 pm
Socio-gen @8:
Tee hee! A voodoo doll. You made me LOL.
****
Anyone:
What does ‘portcullised’ mean? I have seen this used over the years but never thought to ask.
Ray, rude-ass yankee:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:32 pm
Happy New Year, everyone!
I could damn sure use a better year than the last one, I hope that for y’all too.
sueboland:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:32 pm
Thank you very much, guys.
I have now read up on seasonal lag and it makes sense to me. Yay!
Ray, rude-ass yankee:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:36 pm
Tony the Queer Shoop@47
portcullised = trying to post in the time when the thread transitions to its next iteration, I think
MikeG:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:36 pm
Ogvorbis,
I missed a bit. We used pomegranate molasses and the other stuff in the glaze. I got hyphen happy, and left out the molases part. It’s mostly Arabic on the lable, and we found it in some import store. Very interesting flavor.
Tony,
The portcullis is the heavy open latticed gate that either shuts off a castle, or a Lounge thread.
chigau (違う):
January 1st, 2013 at 7:37 pm
Tony
‘portcullised’ is when your have composed a stunningly brilliant comment and you post it just as the Overlord stops an old EndlessThread and starts a new one.
Your brilliance can often be lost.
michaeld:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:39 pm
I demand top hats and bow ties for all the little animals O.O!
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:42 pm
Just as there is thermal lag, there is also comment lag. If I make a comment at, say, 580, by the time I actually his submit, we may be on a new thread. The portcullis comes down, cutting off the comments of the olde threade but the commenter does not realize until their comment is rejected.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:42 pm
Tony:
Yeah, apparently I shouldn’t have done that…
Portcullised is when you hit “submit comment” only to discover the thread has closed. Hopefully, you’ve remembered to copy it, or else have composed it in Word or similar and can retrieve it.
birgerjohansson:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:46 pm
Huckabee Blames Gays, ‘Shrimp Eaters’ For Violence http://dailycurrant.com/2012/12/18/huckabee-blames-gay-shrimp-eaters-violence/
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 1st, 2013 at 7:47 pm
@birgerjohansson
Not sure if you intended it for the lulz but for those who may miss the Currant is a satire site
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:50 pm
That same site also claims that Noam Chomsky is going to be hosting a show on Fox News. It is satire.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 1st, 2013 at 7:55 pm
mythbri
Best wishes for your cousin.
rq
I suppose that im soliciting for financial donations. I feel like a mooch, really, but there it is.
cicely
That is also appreciated.
MikeG, ogvorbis and Morgan
Those all sound delicious. I’m having ham and beans made with the leftover christmas ham, black and pinto beans, with onion, molasses, and black pepper.
Azkyroth
Until the 9th, although I may be able to negotiate an extension or payment plan; their offices are closed today, so I can’t talk to them now.
cicely (The Lesser of Two Measles):
January 1st, 2013 at 8:00 pm
Huckabee is, of course, dead wrong. Shellfish consumption causes homaseckshuality; the shootings thing is just coincidental. It has no “cause”.
There is no difference between pro-homosexual and pro-crustacean.
Ban cocktail sauce, and the whole problem will go away.
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chigau (違う):
January 1st, 2013 at 8:02 pm
Hi Ray!
Happy New Year!
chigau (違う):
January 1st, 2013 at 8:14 pm
Has everyone read Dalillama #25?
ImaginesABeach:
January 1st, 2013 at 8:28 pm
Dalillama – will need contact information, but can help a little. If L has my contact information from the 2 hats I bought from the etsy shop, you could e-mail me.
ImaginesABeach:
January 1st, 2013 at 8:29 pm
Got a start on my Resolution. Made Mexican Hot Chocolate Snickerdoodles today. It’s a vegan recipe! I liked it, the kids did not (cocoa and cayenne is new to them). I’m taking the cookies to work tomorrow for a second opinion before I decide if the recipe is a keeper.
morgan:
January 1st, 2013 at 8:30 pm
Warning: Insufferable self-congratulations:
O holy Maude! I just tasted the final iteration of my New Year Soup. It is so good I can’t stand it! Hubby decided it needed an additional pinch of tarragon, and we did, and it did. Sigh. I hope the rest of the year turns out as well as the soup.
Dallillama – How do we help? Instructions please.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 1st, 2013 at 8:32 pm
Dalillama:
I’m sorry that all I can offer is hugs and commiserations. I’m broke until the 24th.
Ray, rude-ass yankee:
January 1st, 2013 at 8:37 pm
chigau@25 Hi, yourself! wassup?
Ray, pro-cephelopod
chigau (違う):
January 1st, 2013 at 8:41 pm
Ray, r-ay
sameold
I may live another year.
michaeld:
January 1st, 2013 at 8:47 pm
People like to blame the atheists but who is it that breaks into your snake tower, kills your demigod giant snake and plunders the jewels? It`s other theists that’s who!
(tongue in cheek)
Improbable Joe:
January 1st, 2013 at 8:51 pm
Dalillama
I should be able to help a bit in a couple of days, I just need to make sure that the rent check clears first.
Ray, rude-ass yankee:
January 1st, 2013 at 8:56 pm
chigau@68, Me too, just another day in paradise (at least I think it’s another day, they sometimes blur together)
cicely@60, Ray, pro-cephelopod
chigau@62, Read it, but How do we help? Need a point person or contact info to go to.
Bed time for me, but I’ll check back tomorrow. G’night
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 1st, 2013 at 9:04 pm
To those offering help and sympathies, thank you so much. I’m having trouble keeping my composure while I writing, I’m overwhelmed by your kindness, all of you.
As far as how to do it goes, I’m actually not sure exactly how things like this have been organized in the past. For me, it would feel less like begging if there was anything that people might want from L, he’s got a lot of both old books and art pieces that he just posted (link in my ‘nym). Other than that, I’m pretty sure I still have a paypal account; I can try to dig it up. I think L’s paypal is on his site, but I’ll have to ask when he gets out of the shower.
And thank you all again, so much.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 1st, 2013 at 9:12 pm
In the past, Josh, our resident Spokesgay has been instrumental in collecting the donations and getting them to the appropriate parties. I don’t know how to reach him, but one of the other regulars (Caine? Janine?) probably do.
Improbable Joe:
January 1st, 2013 at 9:27 pm
I can hit Josh up on Twitter if you like.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 1st, 2013 at 9:32 pm
Dalilama, how much are you short?
SallyStrange: Elite Femi-Fascist Genius:
January 1st, 2013 at 9:37 pm
I can call Josh Official Spokesgay if need be.
SallyStrange: Elite Femi-Fascist Genius:
January 1st, 2013 at 9:39 pm
In other news: I hereby designate “Loungin’” by Guru and Donald Byrd as the Official Theme Song of the Lounge.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 1st, 2013 at 9:43 pm
Dalilama, send me an email at my nym at the gmail thingy, okay?
Everyone, I’ll start corralling funds for Dalilama. My paypal is also through my nym at gmail.
SallyStrange: Elite Femi-Fascist Genius:
January 1st, 2013 at 9:44 pm
Yay Esteleth!
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 1st, 2013 at 10:01 pm
The NYTimes is reporting that the House has passed the “deal.”
A “deal” that makes permanent 9/10 of the Bush tax cuts and punts drastic cuts down the road.
*sigh*
michaeld:
January 1st, 2013 at 10:14 pm
Esteleth
Yay progress! v.v
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 1st, 2013 at 10:19 pm
@Esteleth
Lets hope those cuts aren’t a guarantee. And if they are a few more months without those cuts are better than none.
chigau (違う):
January 1st, 2013 at 10:19 pm
So They™ are plowing the street in front of my house.
(snow-plowing, for those of you in more tropical climes)
There are three big yellow machines blading the snow from one side, to the middle, to the other side.
The metre-high pile is now on my side-walk.
I do hope They™ will take it away.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 1st, 2013 at 10:24 pm
Anyone else miss the frequent updates on Mitt’s Mendacity from Lynna? I knew it wouldn’t last forever, but they were enjoyable reads.
I hope all is with Lynna in this brand spanking new year.
MissEla:
January 1st, 2013 at 10:33 pm
Just in case there are any other machine embroiderers around right now, Designs by Sick has all of their design packs on sale for $1 today! (Their stuff is usually pretty good and you can pay by PayPal for security, if you want.) Enjoy!
MissEla:
January 1st, 2013 at 10:37 pm
/grumble grumble, html fail. 2nd try:
Designs By Sick
chigau (違う):
January 1st, 2013 at 10:53 pm
The trucks are here!
They’re taking it away!
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 1st, 2013 at 11:04 pm
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/house-pulls-plug-on-sandy-aid-bill-85661.html
Republicans decide to fuck over disaster victims
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 1st, 2013 at 11:05 pm
chigau:
I heard they are going to deposit all of it in your back yard :)
chigau (違う):
January 1st, 2013 at 11:18 pm
Tony
:)
No.
They™ have a Place™ that the snow is piled.
3 winters ago, the Nightly News had a daily helicopter fly-over shot of the City Snowpile.
The big yellow bulldozers were thumbnails against the Snowpile.
Last year they™ didn’t plow.
Welcome to Global ‘Warming’.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 1st, 2013 at 11:25 pm
I…HATE…philosophers. >.>
chigau (違う):
January 1st, 2013 at 11:33 pm
Azkyroth
dam’
When I Win The Lottery, I’m going to the University to a Philosophy Degree
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 1st, 2013 at 11:44 pm
ImaginesABeach, the Grattitude Day Cookie post is up. ♥
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 1st, 2013 at 11:49 pm
Chigau:
The weather is getting increasingly wonky, no?
Here it is 1/1/13 and the high down here was 70 F. Normally, it should be half that.
callitrichid:
January 1st, 2013 at 11:50 pm
Checking to see if my login works yet. Haven’t been able to comment in a long while
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 1st, 2013 at 11:59 pm
You seem smart enough that the concept of “A Distinction Without A Difference” could be impressed on you without using a hydraulic ram, though.
FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker):
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:01 am
My band once did a photo shoot at that Place. We used it as a stand in for Baffin Island. There was much whinging and cursing to be heard that day as a bunch of pasty, vitamin D deficient, improperly clothed musicians froze their genitals off for the sake of a good cover shot.
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:12 am
Well everyone goes to The Place
blogofmyself, writer of papers:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:13 am
Esteleth, you are a hero.
—
Tony / Chigau: The weather has been weird here too. I’m in Fairbanks, and it was up to about 30 degrees Fahrenheit today. That’s a positive 30 degrees, not negative. I don’t know if we’ve broken any temperature records, but it is unseasonably warm. I don’t know whether to be grateful for the reprieve or disappointed at how boring it is. It just doesn’t seem right.
—
In other news, I just got an email back from the professor with whom I will be doing my independent study in Marxist literary theory. We’re currently finalizing our reading list, so we’ve been emailing back and forth about it. In his most recent email he said that he wanted to add some feminist works to our reading schedule, “as I am very conscious this is, thus far, an all male list.” I hadn’t even mentioned that to him yet. I think this is going to be a great semester.
FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker):
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:20 am
Indeed Ing. After all, it’s where the reeducation camp is located.
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:24 am
You know when they need to GO
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:08 am
Blogofmyself:
Good on your professor!
Crudely Wrott:
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:16 am
I’ve spent a perfectly wonderful, nostalgic and entertaining day tuned into ScFy’s Twilight Zone marathon. Most of the episodes I watched when they were first broadcast.
Among my favorites are the ones that feature Burgess Meredith. Remember the one where he survives a nuke blast by taking his lunch in the bank vault? He then walks out into a ruined city and begins to despair until he finds a shattered library. He gathers hundreds of books to provide himself years of uninterrupted reading, for such was his passion, on the steps of the broken building. Then, settling in to begin, his glassed fall and shatter. His final line, his final cry is “It’s not fair. It’s just not fair”. Classic.
Another episode that stands out is Jack Klugman and Jonathan Winters as the sole players in a life or death game that plays out in a pool hall. As a former habituate of such places, this one really captures my attention.
Well then, that said, I want to wish the Whole Horde a Happy New Year. May we count 2013 as a year of accomplishment both individually as well as a Squiddly School. May the Noodly Appendage reach down and touch you all and may we all be present at the next ending of the calendar.
Oh! Here’s another episode with Burgess.
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:21 am
Good morning
So, the neckpain is better but not good, but progress.
Dalillama
Urgh, I’m sorry to hear. Unfortunately I’m out of donatable money at the moment with January being the big bills month over here. :(
mythbri
I’m glad your cousin is better
((hugs))
blogofmyself, writer of papers:
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:37 am
Tony: Not only that, but he’s from England, so every now and then he uses a word or a turn of phrase that I’ve never heard before, which is always fun.
Crudely Wrott: I’m glad you enjoyed the Twlight Zone marathon. I sadly didn’t catch it, but I did watch a bit of the Dr. Who marathon, which was fun. I swear my little brother is going to have me addicted to that show by the time I leave.
I wish you (and the rest of the Horde) a happy New Year filled with good food/drink, fun times, and general contentment.
Giliell: I hope your neck continues to get better.
Crudely Wrott:
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:40 am
blogofmyself, TZ marathon still in progress. Currently is a criminal serving solitary on an asteroid which is curiously similar to Death Valley.
A fine New Year to you and may you profit from it.
ednaz:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:55 am
chigau (違う) –
Can we celebrate with rum?
ednaz:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:57 am
Happy New Year One and All!
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:06 am
Mornings.
ednaz
Happy New Year, day 2. :)
blogofmyself
I like your perfesser.
Dalillama
Sadly, I am unable to do PayPal from where I am. I have to see if I can get to my translating cash this month (it is increasing by leaps and bounds but I still can’t get to it, legally), and then I can do donation-by-mail, via Esteleth, as with JAL, if needed.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:08 am
PS X-files fan here, too. It lost a lot of its charm when Mulder became near-to invisible and Agent Monica turned out not to be a major enemy but on the side of Good. I think she would have been a cool anti-X-files agent. And the story between her and Agent What’s-His-Face who wasn’t Mulder was a bit too contrived. Didn’t feel the chemistry.
Have all seasons somewhere on computer, if anyone wants me to put them up for sharing. (9 seasons, so if the answer is yes, be warned – make space on hard drive!)
slowdjinn:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:09 am
Happy Perihelion everybody!
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:24 am
So, at 11am this morning my mum will be admitted at the hospital.
Her lungs are full of water, her organs are starting to fail.
At first she refused to go to the hospital, to have any examination like blood tests at all, and signed the form that she refuses treatment despite 2 doctors, a nurse and my sister begging her.
Fuck, she might be dying.
ednaz:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:45 am
Happy Perihelion to You, slowdjinn.
-
Happy Day 2 to You, rq.
-
I have a question. Maybe The Horde can help?
Has anyone had any luck encouraging their parents to buy high speed internet? I think my folks would love it if they could, oh I don’t know, use their computer. I’ve tried to entice them with some of the fascinating things I’ve learned online, but they just shrug and say they don’t use it much.
Of course you don’t use it much! You can’t even watch a video for crying out loud! I can’t even send an e-mail with a funny picture! (Of course I keep the shouting to myself.)
Any ideas? words of wisdom?
ednaz:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:48 am
Oh Giliell, I am so sorry.
John Morales:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:52 am
Giliell, that’s awful news.
I know you’ll do what you can for her, and I hope it turns out better than you fear.
FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker):
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:10 am
I’m so sorry to hear that Giliell.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:14 am
Crudely Wrott:
That episode with Meredith’s character breaking his glasses is a memorable one as well.
****
One of the things I wish I were better at (and related to a discussion in another thread about the book Caine is currently reading) is being able to break stories down into their thematic elements and figure out what makes them tick. One of the things M and I used to do was critique movies that we watched, but it was more from an acting or dialogue standpoint. I was never good at analyzing the story to try and find out any deeper meaning, or allegories, or mesages the director was trying to convey.
I am having a hard time explaining what I mean here.
Um, ok since I just watched the American version a few days back, lok at Gojira. I first watched the original Godzilla when I was younger. I watched Gojira just a few years ago. Until I read up on the movie, I was unable to determine that Godzilla was a metaphor for the potential dangers that could be unleashed when humans harness forces beyond their control. Once I understood that, I could see how that played out in the movie. It increased my enjoyment of the film and made me wish I could do that on my own.
Compounding my difficulty in deconstructing stories is the fact that I am a visual person, so reading stories and dissecting them is more difficult than watching and doing the same.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:18 am
Giliell:
Damn.
I’m sorry to hear about your mother. I hope she will be ok.
FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker):
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:39 am
Bandwidth warning. These photos are stupidly large.
Today we have sheddage! Okay, only a third of a shed so far, but it’s progress after a week or so of nothing.
In the shed we made our marks.
And finally BEER!
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:50 am
Many *hugs* to people who gave me kind words in the prior incarnation of the Lounge.
That is all I’ll say, not gonna make this another thread all about me.
blogofmyself, writer of papers:
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:09 am
I’m so sorry, Giliell. I know that must be terrifying. I hope that things turn out better than they seem right now. Hugs to you if you want them.
—
Tony: I’m not really sure how to get better at analyzing things other than to practice, as cheesy as that sounds. Maybe read up on things after you’ve finished them to see what other people have found, like you did with Godzilla. Once you’ve done that enough times you’ll start to get the feel for how to do it yourself, or you’ll find yourself arguing with them and coming up with alternatives to their ideas. Talking to friends about books and movies is another great way to go about it, because everybody brings something different to the table and will pick up different elements. I’m an English major, so analysis is basically what I do with my life, but I only do it because I enjoy it, and I’m only getting good at it because I’ve taken classes and learned from my professors and peers.
—
FossilFishy: Congrats on the 1/3 of a shed. Also, that beer picture looks really cool.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:18 am
Giliell
*hugs* :/ So very sorry!
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:25 am
FossilFishy
*thumbs up*
And yes, lovely beer photo!! :)
+++
So it’s January the 2nd, and went outside with the kids today – they open the door, and say – Surprise! It’s spring! Yah. Because, you know, almost all the snow is gone and we always have fun in puddles in January. :P
+++
Katherine
By the way. I loved your male character descriptions. I wouldn’t mind a few more.
Also, don’t worry about making the thread about yourself (because sometimes we’re all allowed a bit of attention to ourselves, even if we don’t believe we deserve it, even when we do, and even if it’s just for the hell of it). Saves me having to talk about myself (which will happen again soon, don’t worry). ;) *hugs*, if want!!
John Morales:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:00 am
rq, my forecast.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:07 am
@rq:
Well, how about the highly decorated Admiral – with thousands of hours of battle under his belt – who is also an avid knitter?
ImaginesABeach:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:11 am
Giliell -
I’m so sorry about your mom.
ednaz – I can’t help at all. My dad is a retired physicist. There has been a computer in their house since 1982 (a TRS-80). My parents’s computers are better than mine, and their internet is faster. My kids actually find it a letdown when we come home from visiting them.
Esteleth – I will send something later today after I balance my checkbook. If you end up with more than Dalillama needs, you can send any excess to JAL. By the way, this is a good way to ensure you get cookies next year.
Caine – Thanks for the pics. If there was a particular kind of cookie loved by the ratties, let me know and I will make sure they get more next year.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:15 am
Hundreds of hours of battle. Thousands of hours of floating.
Audley Z. Darkheart (liar, scoundrel, broski):
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:19 am
rq:
It’s 9°F here. Which means that it’s colder in Albany, NY than Anchorage, AK right now.
*waves!* Hello, everybody! Very ‘rupt, but what else is new. How are you all doin’?
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:21 am
ednaz
Yah, my parents are like ImaginesABeach. It never helps that my dad was R&D of optical fibre development at one point, so he’s got a whole range of machines at home, and always too many to please my mum (but they can’t be thrown out, oh no, for the historical value…).
That being said, I have an old great-aunt who refused for a long time, but at the ripe old age of 80, she started using email and, a few years later, a social networking site, and now complains that she has too many aches and pains to explore all her friends’ galleries fully. So there’s hope (in her case, it was a lot of persistent work on my dad’s part, and the best argument was ‘Well, when I come to stay with/visit you, I’ll need the computer/internet, so you might as well learn, too’).
Katherine
Dammit, write the damn book! :) Although I think the Admiral should be into tapestry weaving, that way he can commemorate all his battles with giant, colourful wall hangings! ;)
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:40 am
@rq:
Haha, that’d be awesome.
I just find it hilarious to think of this guy who’s been in wars before, who’s stopped pirate incursions upon his shores, who’s braved harsh weather (more on that in a sec) and who’s fought back monsters of the deep, shouting and calling and keeping his men fighting to the last – and then counter that with a nice peaceful setting of him by a fire with a couple knitting needles, clacka-clacka, and a slowly forming scarf made of pretty blue wool.
That is the best thing ever XD
—
On weather, by the way. I need a meteorologist or at least someone really well-versed in weather patterns, cause I need to ask a few questions re: the weather of my world.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:46 am
Also, John Morales, you’re supposed to have weather like that.
I – am not. ;)
+++
Katherine
Imagine his frustration when he’s trying to finish a large tapestry project, and yet another worthy battle comes up. *sigh* A man just doesn’t have enough hours in the day! ;) (So yes, knitting makes a lot more sense, time-management-wise!)
ednaz:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:50 am
FossilFishy – It’s fun to watch your progress. It’s nice of you to share with us.
-
John Morales – Your forecast – how nice. *thumbsup*
-
ImaginesABeach – I appreciate your story.
-
Audley Z. – May I call you Audley Z? I never did ask.
It’s 9 degrees F here, too. (Northern Illinois)
-
rq – Thanks for the idea. : ) And Yay for puddles!
Louis:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:50 am
Evening all,
1) Multiple ‘ruptosity, I have lurked in all the right places though.
2) Hugs for those that want them.
3) Hi! Happy New Thing!
4) I have a hangover.
5) If 4) shocked you, you have not been paying attention.
6) Attempting to drink an ear infection into submission does not work. I have performed extensive trials.
Louis
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:55 am
See Audley I should be in the -5 – -15 (Celsius) range. But. I’m not.
And kids in snow is so much better than kids in dirty puddles full of dog poo because nobody bothers to pick up after their pets along sidewalks where all the children go walking… ;)
Louis
Only vodka (straight, with a teaspoon of black pepper) will cure ear aches, that and magical black balsam from special herbs. If you’ve been drinking anything else, it’s no wonder it hasn’t yet submitted.
ednaz:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:56 am
Katherine Lorraine – If I may…
-
thunk! You are needed!
: )
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 7:01 am
ednaz
re: the parents
It’s only a matter of getting them hooked. Once they know enough to try and figure a few things out themselves, they will never look back. Open the door, as it were… That great-aunt was terrified initially, but she can even handle simple google searches now. And can trouble-shoot the simplest sorts of problems, too (you know, check if all is plugged in, restart if needed, close the program and try again, update anti-virus etc.). :) There’s hope!
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 7:09 am
@ednaz:
Okay, well the planet is about the same distance from their sun as the Earth. It’s approximately the same size. There are two moons – one about the size of the Moon, the other smaller and further out. The closer moon is tidally locked. Overall it’s the same general ratio of water to land as the Earth.
Given that, is it possible to determine what the climate and weather patterns would be like for the continent circled in red in this extraordinarily crude map? Or do I need to provide more info?
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 7:17 am
Katherine
I’m more interested on the effect of the second moon on planetary rotation and, yes, tides, because it’ll have some influence.
Even if it is only religious. ;)
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 7:20 am
@rq:
The second moon is much smaller, much darker, and only appears when the planet is closest to the sun, since it’s got a really low surface albedo.
Crudely Wrott:
January 2nd, 2013 at 7:31 am
Oh, Giliell, my heart goes out to you and your mom.
I hope that once treatment begins she responds and recovers.
I’ll be thinking of her and you. For now, I send you a {hug} and a hand-squeeze and a hopeful smile.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 7:50 am
Katherine
The Moon of the Intermittent God? :)
Your world sounds amazing, the more you tell me about it. Frankly, at this point, I think your story could be shit** (I’m not implying that it is), and I would still read it for the characters.
Which, actually, is how I prefer to read my books (for the characters).
**And I state, for the record, that I in no way believe that your story will be shit (to the contrary, actually). But you’ve done a fine enough job in marketing your characters to me, that I will read your books anyway (and yes, I’ll buy them, too!). :)
jose:
January 2nd, 2013 at 7:52 am
Things I learned reading comments from thunderf00t’s video:
- Women dominate civilization.
- Patriarchal society doesn’t exist and, at the same time, it harms men far more than women.
- Women just don’t want to study science or attain positions of power in business and government (but they run the world nonetheless).
- Alimony is a hate crime against men.
Wonderful how educational youtube can be.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:02 am
@rq:
The closer moon is called “The Protector.” It’s a pretty, white-colored moon (high albedo, and I’m not sure what mineral it would be made out of… is calcium a non-biological mineral??) It’s a symbol of life and protection.
The further moon is called “The Harvester.” It’s very dark red (low albedo as mention, carbon or iron oxide maybe?) and comes in time with the harvest months. It’s a symbol of death and destruction.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:03 am
@jose:
Can we leave T-Foot out of the Lounge? I don’t want to hear a blasted thing about that guy unless it’s related to his realizing he’s acting like a douche.
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:08 am
Thanx everybody.
I take all the hugs I get. Now I’ll go as see what’s up.
jose:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:10 am
Katherine Lorraine,
lol, sure ^__^
opposablethumbs:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:11 am
Fuck, Giliell, I am so sorry. I hope it’s better than it looks. Thinking of you, hoping you’re OK too.
dianne:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:18 am
Mythbri: Sorry about your cousin! I hope she makes a complete recovery both from the eclampsia and the emotional trauma of the adoption! It isn’t unknown for eclampsia to occur without known pre-eclampsia, if the woman in question has hypertension or maybe hasn’t gotten a blood pressure measurement recently. It’s a nasty disease that can sneak up on people rapidly but silently-until things get bad. Whether her doctors were taking enough care or not, I can’t really say without knowing more details that aren’t really my business, but it’s at least not out of the question that it could occur apparently out of nowhere.
Gilell: I hope your mother improves and gets out of the hospital, breathing well, soon! From what you’ve said this sounds like it could be anything from heart failure to a viral illness turned extremely nasty. Some of them are at least partially recoverable so hoping that it turns out to be one of those!
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:20 am
jose
You’re braver than I am, challenging the status quo like that, and standing up against all those over
lordsladies! /snarkrq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:22 am
Katherine
Sorry for my @148, didn’t re-fresh. :/
re: The Protector
What does non-biological mineral mean? :P I mean, it’s in biological systems and stuff (bones), but it’s also a geological thing (see limestone, tuff, for the most obvious), but on its own, as a metal, it’s quite shiny and soft. Also reacts poorly with water, if I recall correctly…
The red moon sounds freaky, but awesome.
Nick Gotts (formerly KG):
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:27 am
Giliell,
Very sorry to hear about your mother. All the best.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:31 am
@rq:
I wasn’t sure whether limestone came from biological material or not – as in, limestone is the petrified remains of bone and shells.
I doubt the moon will have to worry much about water… cause it’s a moon. In space. No space pools. Maybe a space jacuzzi.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:33 am
Also, Katherine, I love the juxtaposition of war with the harvest, makes me think of the religious idea of war (a combination of death and destruction) as a harvest for the gods or some such… Also, the association that a harvest equals not always a happy and loverly time of year.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:37 am
@rq:
It’s mostly a thought that once you can see the red moon in the sky, winter is coming. Not for several months of course, but you’re pretty much halfway between winter and spring at that point. The planet is no longer escaping winter as it is approaching it again.
I kinda like this picture as an idea of what the Harvester would look like.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:39 am
Katherine
Limestone is often the petrified remains of bone and shells, but not always – see this specific section, third paragraph. Travertine (a type of limestone) is a very white, but also a very easily erodible (erosible?) stone, which gets dirty rather quickly. Here’s a great post by FtB’s very own Dana Hunter, which speaks about travertine quite a bit, incl. photos of travertine in architecture. If I recall correctly, it has a few links in it for even more information on limestone and its various geological relations.
Also, you can always invent your own plausible reason for a limestone moon. ;) With a space jacuzzi. ;) (Because I think, even if non-organic, limestone requires water to form – precipitation, and all that jazz.)
Hmm. I wonder what other stuff out there would work for a bright white moon? Quartz? :)
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:41 am
Katherine
Oh wow, that is (I say again) awesome! (I know, I need to improve my vocabulary.)
But wait, did you say half-way between winter and spring? As in, it’s spring, and the Harvester appears, and winter is coming? Are the seasons reversed, or am I reading that wrong? (As in, spring is over for a few months, but winter will be in another few months?)
unclefrogy:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:45 am
I woke up too early today. Yesterday I was watching a TV program called “Closer to Truth” a philosophy show the “presenter” goes around and asks questions of religious and none religious “experts” scientists priests monks philosophers. This time they were talking about time and god . I admit I did yell at the TV a couple times then a thought occurred to me. What the religious including W.L. Craig were doing was the same things little kids do when they project agency to inanimate or less animate things and they can not let go of the child’s perception. So they have to make progressively more abstract rationalizations and adopt and rework the rationalizations of others from the past in order to keep the illusion working .
Amazing
uncle frogy
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:02 am
I reiterate – I love the commentariat here. THIS MUCH. (Yeah, I’m reading the threads with a certain commenter associated with voodoo dolls a few comments up. I love you guys. You set the bar so high, so high… I love it.)
I doubt I can say this often enough or with enough emphasis.
chigau (違う):
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:16 am
Giliell
Hoping for the best.
Improbable Joe:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:17 am
Giliell, sorry to hear about your mom, and I hope she gets better soon!
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:20 am
@rq:
As for the “midway between spring and winter thing” if you looked at my map you’ll notice that the continent on which the stories take place is in the southern hemisphere. When the planet is closest to the sun, it’s summer in the southern hemisphere. The Harvester only appears (because of its particularly low albedo) when the sun is closest to the planet on the summer solstice. The continent is sort-of-Australia in that way. (Although really the Harvester is there all year round, it’s just so small it’s very hard to see properly in the sky. They’ve charted its progress and know precisely when and where it is, and telescopes have seen it in the dead of winter – it just looks almost black so it’s very hard to see.)
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:22 am
It might take me a week to catch up, but hello and merry new year to all. *hugs* and condolences where needed and champagne and celebrations where appropriate.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:23 am
@rq:
Whups, typed the second paragraph of the comment first and forgot to type the first.
Quartz might work. It’d be interesting cause then the moons would be huge crystals technically (since the Harvester I’m thinking is made of carbon – therefore, diamond)
a_ray_in_dilbert_space:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:30 am
Giliell, My thoughts are with you. Here’s hoping for the best possible outcome–whatever that may be. Please keep us posted.
Katherine–For your moons, you probably want something igneous–perhaps a feldspar, say microcline/albite. Also, given that astronomical bodies without an atmosphere get pummeled pretty hard over time, it has to be a young body (perhaps a few million years or less). You could imagine an event like that which gave rise to our moon, with a near collision ripping up a mountain range.
For the darker moon, it could be an iron-nickel asteroid (pretty dark and grey) or a carbonaceous Chondrite captured into an eccentric orbit about the planet. Over time the orbit could become more circular through interaction with the white moon.
Cannabinaceae:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:30 am
Hello and a happy arbitrary numerical increment to all who wish for such! As when my car turns over to a dramatic new number (as it just did – to 130,000 miles (making it about 7,500 miles a year I drive; quite below average for a USAian (although W.U. was driving it since her car was issueful and I didn’t actually see the event)))*, I thought I would use the situation to dedicate myself to net-slight-improvements of habit**. First: to participate more in online conversations. Second: to waste less time playing addictive computer games. As of day two, I’m doing quite well. No games played, one post made.
Some of you will no doubt remember my ‘nym. To those who don’t, and who might be interested, might I suggest perusing the intro thread***. My entry is among the first 500, so you’ll have to link backwards.
*sprinkling of nested ‘thes dedicated to how Ogvorbis used to comment, now that I noticed that and remembered that.
**for the car, it’s thoughts of oil changes****, tire rotations, and “will this be the year that I clean out my car? (the answer being “yes” in 2004 and 2010).
***Whoah! I tried an embedded link, and it was ugly!
****Oil change thoughts actually occur much more often, but they also occur for dramatic numeral arrangements.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:31 am
Lots of extra hugs for Giliell.
: (
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:37 am
@arids:
The galaxy was created by gods. It’s only about three thousand years old. I do try to limit the “a god did it” as far as natural events and how the world looks though, they made the world and all of its laws (magic exists as an actual energy source that one is capable of tapping into, for one example) and got sent into an eternal cycle of death and rebirth so they don’t control anything about the planet. Hence why gravity and natural rhythms and cycles move everything.
michaeld:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:38 am
:(
I hope things get better Giliell.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:39 am
I remember you, Cannibinacae!
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:44 am
@Giliell:
*also hugs*
Cannabinaceae:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:50 am
Hello, Katherine Lorraine, I remember you too!
You have my respect for putting in so much work on your novel. I myself engage in desultory scrivenings, but haven’t managed to either complete anything or even bring them close to completion, even though it’s only two linked horror short stories (ha ha: involving squidlike beings) and one science fiction epic (mundane space opera but rather involved; essentially a sort of exigesis of The Silmarillion/LOTR. I envision in the intro saying something like “…the tale grew in the re-telling until it became a chronicle of the war to preserve the universe…”)
a_ray_in_dilbert_space:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:53 am
Katherine, ah, well, if deities are involved, then you can have pretty much whatever you want. Chances of cratering in 3000 years are pretty low. You could do moonstone (sniny as well as high albedo), limestone, even marble (metamorphosed limestone). As a physicist, I tend to spend too much time in the real world…or so I’m told. ;-)
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:56 am
@arids:
Well most of the planetary system operates under normal, physics-based stuff. I try, like I said, to limit the “a god did it” sort of stuff because when you invoke such things you lose track of internal consistency, and losing track of the internal consistency of the story will let me basically handwave any idea. The creation of the system and its peoples and the creation of the sem are about the only two major “a god/wizard did it” things I’ve invoked, and that’s as far as I’m going.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:03 am
@Cannibinacae:
Almost 16 years in the making, this story has been, so yea. I think I have a lot of work behind it. It’s a much more robust, living world than it was in the past, and I’m proud to say it has even been improved in the past few months.
I’m trying to get everything done and put everything in the book I can. If some person walks up and asks “what are the weather patterns in Kathemega?” I want to have an answer.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:03 am
Katherine
Ah, that makes more sense now (re: moons and winter).
A quartz moon would be awesome, because quartz. I’m sure the fact that it’s piezoelectric could have some implications… no?
Although, if you made it a (semi-)precious stone, like amethyst, it would fit well with the carbon/diamond dark moon (curious: carbon on top, diamond core?).
chigau (違う):
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:06 am
Welcome back, Cannabinaceae.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:18 am
@rq:
I can almost see the Protector being made of granite – or a granite-like combination of quartz, mica, and feldspar, with more pure quartz closer to the core of the moon (with an iron core.) Explorers to the moon (in the far future) would likely have to contend with curious crystalline structures, a near constant electric field, and such. Also, since it would be made of quartz, there’s also likely different quartzes of different colors, so they could maybe see the purples and yellows and pinks and reds and such throughout.
As for the Harvester, that’s pretty much it, it’s a carbon-based body, and higher pressures lead to creation of diamonds underneath the surface.
blf:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:53 am
Happy New Orbit!
I hope everyone’s Mayan Long Count Calendar Collapse was fun. Did anyone get a picture of the Universe going Phuuuuttzz?
The mildly deranged penguin was almost boring this orbit’s end, unless you count the incident with the pea soup or the minced penguin stuffing.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:55 am
Katherine
I wonder how that mining would work out, and would it be a worthwhile industry for those on the world? Sure, the diamonds might, but would extracting quartz en masse and at great cost would actually be profitable? This is, of course, from the point of this world. How do economic dynamics/precious metals/materials work on yours? (Is it Kathemega?)
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:57 am
So, it appears that the shooting in Old Sacramento I missed was essentially a bar argument that got out of hand when one or the other of the participants pulled a gun and started shooting (there are claims from witnesses that the person among the two dead who was not the employee who attempted to intervene pulled a gun first). The rest of the wounded include the dead man’s wife, the shooter, and a trained, armed security guard who exchanged gunfire with him.
Exactly the sort of thing the motherfucking gun fetishists assure us NEVER HAPPENS BECAUSE GUN OWNERS R TEH RESPONSIBLES.
[Crossposted from the supervillain thread because apparently I can't read URLs]
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:05 am
Katherine:
Does the magical energy interfere with the laws of physics? Or somehow work alongside them?
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:06 am
blf
… minced penguin stuffing? Are you now eating my new-found deity?
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:09 am
Azkyroth:
You dwell in one of those places where one can carry a concealed weapon in a bar I take it? That law is so damn dangerous. Alcohol and firearms
Just.
Don’t.
Mix.
Beatrice:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:10 am
Dalillama,
I’m sorry that I can’t help.
—-
cicely,
With the haircut I had in those years, people in school said I resembled Gillian Anderson (or rather, Scully) a bit. So not only I loved the series, I could take identifying with the character that tiny little step further.
And yes, Mulder was easy to look at. ;)
—–
Giliell,
*hugs*
Best wishes for your mother as well as yourself and your whole family in dealing with her hospitalization. I’m hoping for the best possible outcome.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:10 am
Tony
Magical energy IS the laws of physics!! Duh. That’s why orbits!
Ok, fine, Katherine herself probably knows better.
dianne:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:13 am
Not to depress the thread even more, but does anyone else want to curl up and die about this deal to avoid the “fiscal cliff”? Between that and the various news about shootings and guns, I just want to get out, but there’s nowhere that can reasonably be defined as “out”.
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:18 am
Hi everybody and thanks
*covers herself in a pile of hugs*
So, I went to see mum. Imagine a good yeast dough. Imagine adding a generous amount of safron. Make two balls, put together and leave in a warm place for an hour and you get thet look.
She’s semi-detached from reality and still trying to hide everything. She says she doesn’t have any results yet but complains about how the doctor talked to her as if she has no medical knowledge (she’s a medical lab assistant), so clearly she has some information.
I guess I’ll know more tomorrow.
As a bonus I forgot that I was supposed to work tonight, but fortunately that’s two women I’ve been teaching privately for a long time so I’d say they’re friends and they understood.
cicely (The Lesser of Two Measles):
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:25 am
Yay, Esteleth!
-
I, too, miss Lynna’s Moments of Mittly Madness.
-
I find myself completely unsurprised.
-
Sounds promising.
:)
-
Giliell, I have acquired a neckpain. Is it yours?
:)
later: Sorry about your mom.
*hug*
-
ednaz: My mother is barely able to figure out how to plug her computer in, and has to have my nephew turn it on. I shit you not!
-
*waving at Audley*
Still respiring, but dripping.
*sniffle*
-
Louis!
*pouncehug*
-
And a *pouncehug* for Portia, too.
-
*waves at Cannibinacae*
-
blf!
*yet another pouncehug*
Minced…penguin…stuffing…. I cannot imagine the mdp approving of this product; at least, unless you’re speaking of stuffing the penguin with minced cheeses.
-
“This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.”
Tradition!
-
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:33 am
cicely
I thought we were all about abolishing tradition? No?
All Hail the Horse, then!
Cannabinaceae:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:36 am
chigau, cicely: yo!
Now I will log out, pay bills, NOT play any Bubbleshooter or Mah Jongg Solitaire, and finish up a major part of some code that I’ve been working on.
Oh, yeah, and work on some CV cover letters and whatnot.
Beatrice:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:40 am
Parents not understanding computers:
When I was leaving town for ten days this summer, my father was worried about my getting emails about prospective jobs. See, he thought I wouldn’t get emails that are sent while my computer is turned off.
That is a man who uses a computer at work.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:42 am
Beatrice
I just had a nice giggle at your father’s expense.
Should I aspologize?
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:43 am
@rq:
Well the moons may be made of precious metals, but the planet is made of the same kinds of metals and minerals as our own. So mining is much the same.
The world is Dramoth Gilead (the world of humans) and the continent is Kathemega.
@Tony:
Magic runs counter to laws of physics – enabling things like creating fire with no source and levitating heavy objects from a distance. However, most of this is due to the way that the magic itself runs through the planet – in the ley line channels. One could, feasibly, navigate those channels, but they’d get torn apart by the energies. The channels all extend from the island of Dolles in the compass directions, and from those major channels they spiderweb to cover a significant portion of the land’s surface.
A magician needs to actually be in contact with the ley line somehow (evocations tend to be the simplest way) and briefly the flow of energy diverts to that magician until they’re done using the magic. The flow is temporarily used, and then returns back to the ley line when the evocation is canceled (say, levitating a rock, the flow would go into the rock, lift it, and when the rock is set back down and the magician is done with the spell, it would go back into the ley line.)
Beatrice:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:45 am
rq,
Nah, giggle away
cicely (The Lesser of Two Measles):
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:48 am
Only if you’re talking about really big hailstones.
On the other hand, if you want to eat the Horses, then dig in! Better digested than resurrected!
-
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:53 am
cicely
The bones will come back to rattle at your door, impervious to the giant stones of hail falling upon it.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:57 am
Trying to catch up with what’s happened overnight.
Giliell
*hugs* I’m sorry to hear about your mother. Best wishes.
FossilFishy
The shed parts look cool, and I am jealous. :)
Tony
I’m generally pretty poor at that sort of deconstruction, I’m more likely to nitpick how it hangs together/how easy my suspesnsion of disbelief is.
Katherine
Now I’m picturing him standin on the poop deck, his hard eyes roaming the sailors under his command, his mouth opening to bellow some new command, his callused hands nimbly manipulating a pair of needles as his wife’s anniversay scarf trails in the breeze below them.
It is, although silicates should also work; our moon has a pretty whitish color and high albedo and that’s what it’s covered in, IIRC.
rq
Makes me think of the old pictures of Death, using his scythe to reap a great harvest of humanity, usually repersetning war or plague.
Cannabinaceae
Inline links look funky in preveiw, but they come out right.
all who have offered help and sympathies
Thank you all so much. You have all touched me beyond words.
cicely (The Lesser of Two Measles):
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:59 am
rq
Bone meal.
-
chigau (違う):
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:02 pm
Louis
Try pouring the vodka into your ear.
With pepper.
Happy New Year.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:02 pm
cicely
… For a meal of bones?
Dalillama
Yes, like that!
Sort of on topic: There’s a great Latvian story about how Death gets tricked out of her (Death is female in Latvian) just reapings and harvests by an old soldier, but he ends up paying for his trickery in the end (and Death gets free rein).
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:05 pm
Katherine:
(Beatrice, skip this)
Interesting. So is there a finite amount of energy in the ley lines? Can it be ‘used up’ so to speak?
I hope I’m not asking anything too spoilery. I know many writers like to worldbuild with tremendous depth and much of it doesn’t make it into their books.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:06 pm
@dalillama:
Actually, he’s never been married. He’s far too thoughtful to put upon any wife the stress of having to worry about whether her husband will return from his latest voyage or not. He’s had many lovers (a lady in every port) though. He’ll get married when he retires.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:12 pm
Dianne
But dianne, what about bipartisanship? What about compromise? We have to let the Republicans have some input even though their plans are catastrophic, their ignorance total and their behaviour whould shame a glue-sniffing howler monkey. *spits*
cicely
Eating horses?
Katherine
Well, it could be for the lady in his next port of call, or his future wife…
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:13 pm
I remember some stories that indicated that knitting was actually a fairly popular hobby in the Navy at one point. Certainly a useful one, with all the cold and damp…
cicely (The Lesser of Two Measles):
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:14 pm
rq
For any purpose for which bone meal is a sensible choice. After it’s been properly rendered inanimate…with napalm! of course.
-
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:15 pm
Dalillama:
Heh heh…
So how well did your suspension of disbelief hold together for the last Indiana Jones movie?
“Why hello, yes I did hide in a refrigerator to escape a ground zero nuclear blast which also hurled the fridge (with me in it) miles away. And the fridge survived. So did I.”
Aaaargh. I was ready to walk out of the movie.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:16 pm
@Tony:
It could be used up, but it would have to require many many MANY people casting or tapping into the ley lines. Entire nations using magical abilities at the same time. If there are wars, they in fact, tend to use circle-magic (a group of wizards channeling power together to cast larger magics) because if a lot of wizards were to use magic at the same time in the same place, it’d be really weak.
Magic circulates right back to its source, though, as soon as they’re done tapping into it.
cicely (The Lesser of Two Measles):
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:17 pm
Dailillama
I’m totally down with pitching the Horses into Davy Jones’ (meat) locker. It’s rq who wants to worship Them, and (traditionally) eat of Their rancid flesh.
-
Beatrice:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:17 pm
Argh, this one bothered me sooo much. Watched it relatively recently on tv and kept grumbling about it. Family grumbled back with “it’s just a movie, let it go already”.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:20 pm
@Azkryoth:
Oh no doubt, which is why he does it.
@Dalillama:
Yep, that’s what he does. For women he’s interested in mostly, also gifts to various people of importance in his life: “My King! I knitted you this hat because it’s getting kind of chilly and I don’t want you to catch cold.”
ImaginesABeach:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:21 pm
Esteleth – paypal sent.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:22 pm
@Tony/Beatrice:
I personally subscribe to the idea that he never survived the nuclear explosion and everything after that in the movie was the last dreams of his dying mind.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:27 pm
It seems like “a similar composition to the earth’s moon” might more or less fulfill the requirements.
If you want REALLY shiny maybe posit that the surface was largely glassified by meteorite impacts or something.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:29 pm
Katherine
So they wouldn’t ever really have a magic crisis a la energy crisis, would they?
re: Indiana Jones
Had issues with that opening scene, too. Even Husband, who is usually quick to suspend all kinds of disbelief, was apalled. Terrible. Personally the last IJ movie was a travesty.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:29 pm
Everyone,
So, Dalilama owes $514 on bills. I happen to have that much right now, so I’m going to send that off. Anyone who would like to contribute to the, uh, “Refill Esteleth’s bank account after she helped Dalilama fund” is welcome to do so. Because while I had that money lying around, I can’t really spare that much in the long term.
I would like to note that I have – as of right now – already gotten a few donations. :D Because the Horde is awesome.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:30 pm
I saw a theory, and I find it attractive:
The Indiana Jones films are Han Solo’s fever-frozen-dreams while he’s encased in carbonite.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:31 pm
Tony
It didn’t. I don’t believe that such a movie exists, and I refuse to suspend that disbelief.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:34 pm
Morning all.
Thirteen sneezes in a row this morning. It’s a sign from above!! (Of an impending head cold.)
—
Crudely Wrott:
This is my favorite episode. I saw it as kid, re-run after 1am on the local station and completely understood his despair, as someone who can’t see anything clearly without glasses (contacts today) unless it’s a few inches from her nose.
—
Giliell:
I’m so sorry about your mom. Many *hugs* to you and to your family as you deal with this.
—
ednaz:
Maybe try a demo — show them what they can do with the faster speed? If one of them is a sports fan, you could show them how they can watch videos, keep up with their team(s), etc.
On the other hand, they may just not be interested in more than cursory online activities and have matched their internet to their interest level. I don’t understand people like that, but I know they exist. My aunt has very little interest in anything online and, as far as I know, uses her computer solely to check the weather forecast. So she has the cheapest, slowest dial-up on earth.
—
FossilFishy:
Yay for partial sheddage!
—
Audley:
It’s currently +25 in Moorhead. Heat wave! It’s a nice change from all the wind chill warnings and advisories.
—
Louis!!
Have you tried putting some alcohol directly into the ear? I had a grandfather who swore by 6 drops of his favorite whisky as a cure. Followed by three to six shots of same. Repeat as often as needed. I don’t know that it actually cured anything, but it might have just numbed him to the pain.
—
Katherine:
I have to second ednaz. Your characters sound SO interesting (I have a thousand and one questions because I want to know more about them!), but the world-building is amazing. I cannot wait to buy this and see how you put all these elements together.
—
Portia:
Welcome back! Hope you had an enjoyable turning of the calendar.
—
Azkyroth:
Glad you missed it! I’m sure they’ll spin it as “See! Guns work otherwise the death count would have been higher!” because they’re idiots who really don’t care about the death toll as long as they get to keep their precious, precious guns.
—
Beatrice:
I laughed.
My mom is very computer-savvy now, but when she got her first computer in 2001, she couldn’t figure out how to turn it on and called me. I tell her what the power button looks like and to press it. She does but it doesn’t work. I have her check that everything’s plugged in and it is. Try the power button again. Nothing. After a good 10-15 minutes of this, I drive over and… my mother had been pushing the power button on the monitor.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:34 pm
@Azkyroth:
But cheese is a really silly thing for a moon to be made out of.
cicely (The Lesser of Two Measles):
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:36 pm
Not merely attractive, but compelling.
*hand-waving*
It is, was, and ever will be so.
-
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:36 pm
When I learned of the “moon-made-of-cheese” thing, my response was, space cows?
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:40 pm
@rq:
Highly unlikely, it’d require tremendous amounts of energy usage. Although the city of Sedurka (the tallis city) is actually tapped into the ley lines of fire and water – using those ley lines to produce steam for their mechanics. The steam circulates pretty quickly – but there are next to no tallis mages. Maybe two or three for every one hundred of their kind. Tallis just do not use magic.
@Socio-Gen:
16 years of work makes everything much more well-designed I think.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:41 pm
@Esteleth:
Now that’s just silly. Everyone knows there are no space cows.
Space goats, on the other hand.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:45 pm
So, the moon is made of feta?
I am intrigued by this theory.
Beatrice:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:45 pm
Just the title of the last post…. Ugh.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:47 pm
This reminds me: my car recently rolled over to 80085 miles.
…I giggled. >.>
Beatrice:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:47 pm
Mmmm… feta
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:48 pm
But Azkyroth quartz moon is just so much more awesome than ordinary our moon.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:49 pm
Feta…makes salads betta
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:52 pm
@Esteleth:
Exactly. That’s why it’s kinda whitish.
(Also, any World of Warcraft players would know exactly what I mean by space goats.)
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:56 pm
I like ‘Indy as fever dreams’.
****
Oh, Dalillama, the movie is as real as Prometheus (yeah, I am a stinker).
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 12:57 pm
I know of Spaaaaaaaaace Ghoooooooost.
But not space goats.
Beatrice:
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:00 pm
I forgot to that WMDKitty for that X-Files fanfic linky. Thanks!
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:01 pm
@Tony:
Google “draenei” (and be prepared for the stupid sexy fantasy females trope – stripperific costumes galore.)
dianne:
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:33 pm
But dianne, what about bipartisanship? What about compromise?
What about them?
We have to let the Republicans have some input even though their plans are catastrophic, their ignorance total and their behaviour whould shame a glue-sniffing howler monkey. *spits*
Stop dissing howler monkeys. They’re perfectly good primates who don’t deserve to be compared to Republicans. Especially not Tea Party Republicans.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:34 pm
Katherine:
Urban dictionary actually has an entry on these smurfy blue space goats…hod strange.
dianne:
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:35 pm
The Indiana Jones films are Han Solo’s fever-frozen-dreams while he’s encased in carbonite.
I like it, but Star Wars is said to be set “a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away”. How could Han know anything about 1940s Earth?
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:38 pm
Moving time which means cleaning time which means selling time which means I may need some Horde help.
Any of you collectors or know of any resources for that. I’m finding a few things that I think are sellable but I’m having trouble pricing and don’t know if it’d be better to do Ebay or find an antique shop or what
1) 1972 pair of Ronald McDonald and Hamburglar with original Cape good condition cloth dolls
2) 1 Vintage decent condition My Little Pony
3) Set of Assorted Troll Dolls
4) Complete set of Knowles Snow White Collector’s Plates
I’m seeing #4 sold in pieces for about 20-30 per plate on Ebay but don’t know if it’s selling or if that’s a good price. An online auctioneer site gave a recommended starting bid of 100. Anyone know anymore about this than me?
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:39 pm
You’re right. They’re far more eloquent and coherent, and display better cognitive capacities and problem-solving skills.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:52 pm
Random question:
If you were to come to Latvia from the US on a scientific/business trip (for instance, to present a week-long seminar to some Latvian DNA analysts about some new database programming), would you rather eat your first lunch at:
a) a Czech restaurant;
b) an Uzbeki restaurant;
c) somewhere else?
(This is assuming that you can get decent regular Latvian food at your hotel.)
Beatrice:
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:56 pm
rq,
Can I answer?
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 2nd, 2013 at 1:59 pm
He doesn’t. That explains the WTFery of them.
Beatrice:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:00 pm
OK, I will answer even if you don’t let me
I’m suspicious about hotel food being decent regular Latvian food. But if you are absolutely sure about that, I would choose Czech. Admittedly, I have no idea what I would get at an Uzbeki restaurant.
Oh my, I have been of no help whatsoever. :)
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:02 pm
Beatrice
Sure!
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:11 pm
But Beatrice! New horizons! Unexpected flavours! And (specially for cicely) horse-meat! (That’s Uzbeki.)
Yeah, I was leaning for the Czech, as well. Anyone else with a vote? Or can I blame it all on Beatrice? ;)
chigau (違う):
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:12 pm
If I was a Canadian in Latvia for business, I’d eat Latvian food first.
Then I’d like to go for sushi ;)
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:13 pm
Ing,
If you log in to Ebay, you can modify your search with one of the checkboxes in the sidebar to show completed listings, auctions that have finished. That’ll give you an idea of how often they’re selling.
Beatrice:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:15 pm
I forgot to make it clear in between my snipes at hotel food, but I would generally go out for local food first, like chigau.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:18 pm
See, that’s the dilemma – they’re here for a week, staying at a rather decent new hotel right downtown, but I have to take them to lunch on their first day (well, second – they fly in on the Saturday, lunch is on the Sunday). And I don’t know whether to throw them straight to the Latvian fare, or to present them with something else (more or less European) and hope they’ll hit the Latvian food themselves later in the week…
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:18 pm
rq:
I think I’d want authentic Latvian food, but if those are my only choices, I’d go with Czech first, then Uzbeki.
Unless you’re not joking about the horse meat, because then it’s Czech for every meal.
Beatrice:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:19 pm
Field trip to Prague:
Horrible hotel food.
But! A great restaurant one afternoon. Idiots from the class turned their noses at the food and went to McDonald’s later. I would confiscate passports from people like that.
Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:25 pm
Hi all,
I just learned that the Horde Signal had gone up—I’m sorry to have missed it! I would offer to play treasurer again but it looks like Esteleth has taken up the good cause. Is that so? Can I help E? You know where to find me.
Dalillama—I’m sorry your finances are so busted right now! Don’t worry; the Horde will help.
Gileill, I’m sorry to hear of your mum’s health turn. Please keep us informed to the degree that you want to.
Ibis3, Blighter and Trampler since 1971:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:26 pm
Not to mention you’d still have the 3 Star Wars prequels to handwave away too. Maybe *those* are the carbonite dreams.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:27 pm
Beatrice
Agreed. Way to enjoy travel. :P
Socio-gen
Well, the Uzbeki place has horse-meat on the menu – not every dish, mind, but it’s there. Mostly goat and mutton, though.
+++
I think I’m going to go with the Czech on the first day, and compile a list of places with good Latvian food to give them on arrival. I’ve been to the Czech place, at least, and can guarantee atmosphere + food + really good beer + service. Work is footing the bill, so that’s a bit less of a worry (but no, the budget is not astronomical – I’m still a government employee).
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:29 pm
I approve of this theory.
Josh:
I have a PayPal, and I also have a snail mail that I think you know. If you’d like to contribute, I certainly won’t say no. :)
dianne:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:36 pm
Not to mention you’d still have the 3 Star Wars prequels to handwave away too. Maybe *those* are the carbonite dreams.
No, those are Luke Skywalker’s dreams while under anesthesia for the hand replacement he needs after his hand was destroyed during the fight with Vader. RofJ was too. As was the whole thing about Vader being his father. The propofol was to blame for all of it. Along with the illusion that Leia was his sister. That was just Luke making himself feel better about losing out to Hans in the romance department.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:37 pm
How would you prepare chigau? O.o
Beatrice:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:39 pm
rq,
Czech beer. I didn’t care much for beer at the time I traveled to Prague, but I immediately loved Pilsner Urquell. Staropramen is my beer of choice in bars here (much better than most of our brands).
chigau (違う):
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:40 pm
O.O
You’ll hafta catch me first!!!
Improbable Joe:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:40 pm
rq
As a hypothetical “American in Latvia” I’d want to sample the local fare, but if possible also try other stuff that isn’t available in the USA. So if there’s a good Czech joint nearby, or Uzbeki or whatever else, I want to try that too. Of course, I’m generally an adventurous eater… and I have a pretty good instinct for “food the locals only serve to dumb Americans in order to laugh at them for eating the bits they normally throw away.”
Beatrice:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:41 pm
Azkyroth,
Um.
I have to work on my sentence structure.
—-
chigau, I won’t try to cook you. Honest!
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:43 pm
dianne:
Anything else you want to handwave away?
Battlefield Earth?
Waterworld?
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:45 pm
rq
I think that Czech is probably safe AND tasty.
I would go for Uzbeki, but I already know Czech and am fond of experimenting.
+++
The sad hilarity of life:
Your mum’s cousin who left her alcoholic husband because she couldn’t take it anymore being shocked at your dad thinking about leaving your alcoholic mum* because he can’t take it anymore.
*Not now. But he made a remark some weeks ago if it weren’t for sister carig for gran and him not wanting to leave them alone he’d be gone (and no, I couldn’t blame him)
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:48 pm
rq:
Ah, okay. As long as it’s something I could avoid (same with seafood), I’d be fine.
I don’t know if it would be worth the time and effort, but maybe with your list of places, you could include a one or two menu items you’d recommend they try? I’m forever asking people what they like at whatever restaurant they suggest and have found it a great way to discover new-to-me dishes.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:49 pm
Beatrice
I like Czech beer, almost as much as I like Latvian beer. And yes, Staropramen is a great one, when available (too many local Latvian beers, so they tend not to carry other European beers except in specialized bars, like the Belgian Beer Bar…).
dianne
I should think so, that Luke feels bad for losing out to Han-some not-so-Solo in the romance department. Because everybody loves a scoundrel, while Luke’s country-bumpkin naivete gets pretty old after a while. :)
dianne:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:51 pm
Anything else you want to handwave away?
Yes. The NRA and the Tea Party. Unfortunately, they’re being more persistent.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:51 pm
Tony:
Yes, please.
dianne:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:54 pm
But back to movies, I’m also of the opinion that the Matrix works better if you assume that the entire thing happens inside the Matrix and the “real world” is just a fantasy RPG that the computers thought up to keep the people who didn’t like living in the bit simulating the 1990s happy. Then all of the illogical bits including the lack of thermodynamic sense can be waved away as bad programming.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:54 pm
Improbable Joe
I don’t know how adventurous these people are, and I have to submit my recommendation tomorrow and they arrive in about 10 days, so I think I’ll give them a list of more exotic places around. The walk on the way to the Czech place should give me a chance to point a few places out, and since they’ll be hanging out at my work for the whole week, it’ll all be within walking distance.
Yeah, if you come visit, I’ll try to think of something especially interesting.
Giliell
I actually want to try the Uzbeki place myself, because I’ve never had Uzbeki food (skipping on the horse-meat). But the Czech is really, really good.
Azkyroth
Sadly, chigau is local neither to me nor to Beatrice. :(
chigau
You’re safe. (But I’m sure you run fast.)
Socio-gen
That’s the plan! Hopefully they’re the kind of poeple who enjoy suggestions. I just hope I pick good ones, it’s been a while since I’ve been out-out, and I have no idea what these people will be like!
Also, how’s your Plan working out?
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 2nd, 2013 at 2:57 pm
The Matrix makes much more sense in the Lebowski’s original script than in what they were forced to change it to. Because WB thinks that people are idiots.
(The original script: the Matrix is created by the sum of all the embedded humans’ neural networks. So the Matrix is *of* the humans. The nonsense about humans being used to create energy is completely missing.)
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:07 pm
I don’t know how I missed this earlier, but:
The 112th Congress is poised to adjourn without voting on the Violence Against Women Act.
VAWA is dead.
Fuck the GOP. Seriously.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:07 pm
rq:
Nice! I wasn’t sure if it would come across as asking you to do even more work, but I always appreciate suggestions and figure other people do as well.
The Plan proceeds. We’re in radio-silence mode now, though there has been a posting of an “I don’t know what the world is coming to when people are just ignoring traditional values” that I assume is directed at me. Along with a comment from the SIL who can’t keep secrets telling her that
“it’s difficult when someone don’t [sic] have a moral foundation but all we can do is pray and hope God heals their troubled heart.”
*snicker*
In short, we’re on schedule and after one or two more such postings, the trip should be canceled — probably within the next week.
Improbable Joe:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:13 pm
dianne,
I assumed the same thing as you about The Matrix, that the “real world” is actually just another level of programmed virtual reality. I also decided that the real ending is that Neo and Smith become integrated as one being to have a human element helping run things. In that scene at the end with the Architect and the Oracle on a park bench or whatever, they should be joined by “Agent Anderson” … or something like that.
Is it weird that I’ve made it sort of a hobby to rewrite crappy movies & TV shows into halfway good ones. at least in my head?
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:19 pm
Esteleth:
Seconded.
cicely (The Lesser of Two Measles):
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:24 pm
But cicely won’t be presenting a week-long seminar to some Latvian DNA analysts, so cicely is safe from the threat of Horse-meat. With or without napalm!
-
Yes and yes.
Also, the alleged second and third Matrix movies.
-
Sadly, tragically, these are not fictions…at least, not in the same sense as stinky-bad movies.
-
Ah; the ultimate MMRPG!
-
Fuck them sideways, and running.
-
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:25 pm
rq
If Czech food is anything like Serbian, I would favor going there, but that’s because I love Serbian food.
esteleth
Thirded
Joe
Nope, not weird. I do it too. (ok, maybe that doesn’t mean it’s not weird, whatever.)
ImaginesABeach:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:33 pm
rq – as an extremely UN-adventurous person, I would consider eating the local food exciting enough.
Beatrice:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:39 pm
Hm, I should be more familiar with traditional Serbian food. Serbian cuisine has a lot of Turkish and Greek influence, but other than that I think it should have a lot of similarities with Czech cuisine (note that I don’t know much about traditional Czech foods).
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:46 pm
ImaginesABeach:
Any cookie with icing was the most popular, after that, sugar cookies! I’ve stashed the rest for us, with some reserved for careful parceling out to the rats when fight night breaks out. (When they get in the mood to fight, the only thing that breaks it all up is the giving out of cookies.)
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:47 pm
FossilFishy, (from last thread)
Thank you for your wonderful post.
As for the money, I know you guys don’t check or act like DES. However, it still felt wrong to take all the money and not use it for moving. That’s what the money was for and I knew if I took it, even to just hold on to it, household thinks would pop up like medicine and lightbulbs. So the money would have slowly drained away at least a little bit during the last month.
Since I knew that would happen and wanted to make sure we had our get out of doge fund intact, Esteleth held on to the money for me. I took about 150 to get a cellphone. boxes and do laundry and such but that’s it.
While I know the Horde is donating to help pay back Esteleth for helping out Dalillama, if Esteleth needs any extra I have no problem with her taking some of funds she’s holding for me.
–
–
Okay, so I started talking to FossilFishy but then switched to talking to the whole Horde and specifically Esteleth but I had no idea how to switch my tone so it like I’m talking about Esteleth in front of her but not acknowledging her and it’s weird. In my defense I’m high on because the pain from my teeth was too much to handle. I lost another chunk in the back which is tearing apart my gums, since my gums cover some of my back teeth.
Now I’m rambling incoherently but I’m still going to post it because I want to talk to you guys.
——
——
Yay more book talk! Kathrine, I love hearing about your books and last time you posted your websites for them, I started following those. I hope to read them once you get them published. =)
Okay this might sound weird but I have this little dream when it comes to your books. I’ve been trying to write reviews and start a book blog, right? Because I love books so much that even in depressive states I read and become *my pen name* as book reviewer and pretend everything is fine.
So, I have a hope that when you get published, either self or with a big place, I’ll be this awesome known reviewer. Then I can review your book and my, (currently imaginary), horde of followers will buy and love your book. So you’d be a great well known author that I got to help you up the ladder and be your friend at the same time.
rq:
January 2nd, 2013 at 3:51 pm
Wait, Katherine has a website for her books? Link me up!
+++
And I’ll look at it tomorrow. Good night all, thanks for the food suggestions!
*hugs*, hot drinks and shots as/where needed!
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:03 pm
JAL
While I appreciate the offer, I can’t tell you how much, please please don’t give up your funds for me. Seriously, I would rather give the money back to Esteleth directly and try to find some other way than think I was depriving you and the Little One. I’m employed, I’ll have more money in the future, I’ll even have insurance soon; if I had to, there’s payday loans ore something, but I can’t take money from you. If there’s an emergency dental clinic in your area that offers discounted rates, a dental school, something like that, take the money to them to see what they can do for you before you give it to me.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:04 pm
Here’s the site I have for Kat’s http://cathemega.wordpress.com
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:10 pm
Continued…
I also have family who technically could help me, but I know that their finances aren’t great and they’ve already been supporting me more than they can really afford, especially since they’re helping my brother out too, I’m pretty sure.
Beatrice
There’s a wonderful Serbian restaurant not a mile from me. I haven’t been able to go in years, but I remember it fondly.
Cannabinaceae:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:17 pm
Alright, food and beer gossip!
|
As far as food goes: I’m a pretty finicky eater, but I’d try horse and probably most other vertebrate muscle meats. Dog or cat probably not, though. Maybe dog. In addition to the USA-usual meats, I’ve had: venison, bear, turtle, elk, wild boar, kangaroo, alligator, wildebeest. I wasn’t all that happy with the venison or kangaroo.
|
As far as beer goes: My reflex is to drink IPAs (but not “black IPAs”*), but I’ll happily drink any _Reinheitsgebot_ beer, and much that is closely related. However, if I find myself in odd-to-me beer territory (say, as in visiting Great Britain) I quickly adapt (as in not noticing any temperature and carbonation differences).
|
*Scare quotes ’cause I don’t think the term is wholly adopted by beer snobs such as me; the ones I’ve tried so far have seemed oddly watery. I wish it were different, as in my past my reflex has been to go for the dark beers, and it would be great to make my future even better by potentiating my past with my present, AFABG.
birgerjohansson:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:24 pm
Something to listen to while you sample beer.
.
The singers of ABBA:
Anni-Frid Lyngstad: En ledig dag (1967) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECn0lgS3aEg
En kväll om sommarn (1971) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFkgKIiW7QE
— — — — — — —
Agnetha Fältskog Jag var så kär (1967) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDAfSvLnA2s
“Om tårar vore guld” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKPdkwIpPVI A Swedish No. 1 hit at the age of 17!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQjYa0BICAA Humerous and charming video of Agnetha forced to sing her song “Om Tårar Vore Guld” on a chat show, while at the same time chopping an onion!
rorschach:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:29 pm
To whoever recommended the “Mistborn trilogy” books a while ago, thank you very much, I enjoyed reading them a lot.
birgerjohansson:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:30 pm
The other half of ABBA. All four had distinguished careers before they teamed up. Here is some early stuff.
Björn Ulvaeus, Early band Hootenanny Singers,
Baby, those are the rules,
No time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0BQTGjWDIc ,
First collaboration with Andersson: Isn’t It Easy To Say http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbEqcMOhU6k
— — — — — — —
Benny Andersson
Early band Hep Stars
“Sunny Girl” (1966) (too corny text, -remember it is not his first language so he had crappy grasp of English – but good melody)
“She’s domestic, she is property, she’s slim like reed” How embarrassing , It is like when the CEO of BP talked of “Small People” when he meant little people/ vulnerable people.
.
-But in case you think he is an MRA, he actually donated a million SKR to the party Feministiskt initiativ (feministic initiative) for the Europarliament election in 2009. **
— — — —
First song with *all four* (not yet using the name ABBA): Hej gamle man (shows the roots in folk music of Andersson and ULvaeus) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVQWo6g-dRQ
— — — — — — — — — — —
Politics:
.
“Björn Ulvaeus är sedan 2005 en aktiv medlem i den ateistiska organisationen Humanisterna. Den 10 oktober 2006 mottog han organisationens Ingemar Hedenius-pris “för att han på ett modigt och skarpsinnigt sätt, i flertalet artiklar och ‘amerikabrev’ i svensk rikspress under 2006, har formulerat en tydlig religionskritik och behovet av en sekulär humanistisk grund för samhällsutvecklingen”.
.
Brief translation: “Björn Ulvaeus is since 2005 an active member of the atheist organization Humanisterna. 2006 he received the Ingemar Hedenius prize for formulating a concise criticism of religion and the need for a secular humanistic foundation for the development of society.”
— — — — — — — — — — — — — —
** Benny Andersson:
“Inför Europaparlamentsvalet 2009 skänkte Andersson en miljon kronor till Feministiskt initiativ”
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:32 pm
But licking grapefruit peel off pine lumber would be so much cheaper O.o
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:36 pm
Esteleth, I just responded to your email. I disconnected so much with my “real” self, I hadn’t checked that email account in a month at least.
—
—
Dalillama, thank you for that. I figured if everyone was wiped out from the holidays and such, my stash could be used and restored if and when I actually get to moving.
birgerjohansson:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:40 pm
Mistborn trilogy? I will bookmark it.
BTW I was not previously aware Ulvaeus was an active member of an atheist organisation. It is embarassing to be ignorant of something right under my nose.
I forgot to mention, the manager Stickan Andersson was practically the fifth member of the group in terms of importance, just like wossname the manager for the Beatles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stig_Anderson
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:40 pm
Oohhh! I don’t know if it was me, but I def. recommend them so I’m glad you liked them!
Did you read the stand alone novel, Alloy of Law? Brandon Sanderson doesn’t like how fantasy worlds just get stuck technology wise because well, that’s now it works in our world. There’s always movement forward so he’s doing that with his Mistborn series. Alloy of Law is set in like the Wild West and he’s working on another trilogy in an Urban setting in the Mistborn world. I love that idea of moving technology forward.
birgerjohansson:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:51 pm
If 1940s Earth is at the edge of the light cone for Han Solo, and he has the ability to sense events here (due to The Schwartz) they would be simultaneous for him (violating a few laws of physics, but that is what The Schwartz permits) while Han Solo would be in our past.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:52 pm
Watching ParaNorman, fabulous!
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:55 pm
Han Solo is not Schwartz-sensitive.
Cannabinaceae:
January 2nd, 2013 at 4:59 pm
I have heard there are people that do not enjoy:
Are you one of them? How about juniper berries* mixed with reindeer lichen**? It seems all three would be somewhat similar. I’ll note that when a child, I enjoyed the smell when we got the car filled up with gas or when the high school was re-tarring is extensive acreage of flat roofs.
|
*Juniperus communis
**Cladonia rangiferina
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:10 pm
Yes we must remember that Star Wars is a setting where fascism is woven into the very fabric of the universe and the chosen ones are the major movers and shakers for good or ill by birthright.
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:13 pm
Which incidentally I remember reading background material supposedly sanctioned by WOG in SW (pre prequel obviously) that while the degree of “sensitivity” is variable originally the idea was that anyone can train to be a Jedi (Fitting in with the Buddhist themes I suppose) but this was quickly contradicted by EU writings that introduced the “force sensitivity” idea. So maybe the Mitichlorians weren’t entirely Lucas’s fault as he was just naming a stupid idea that others came up with.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:17 pm
And yet (as per the EU), he fathered 3 sensitive children. So – if we predicate that to be sensitive, one must be sensitive+/sensitive+ (i.e. it is a recessive allele), then – given that Leia is asserted to be sensitive herself – for their children to also be sensitive, Solo must be sensitive+/sensitive-, i.e. an asymptomatic carrier.
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:19 pm
@Esteleth
Sensitivity being recessive is nuked by the fact that Shimi Skywalker gave birth to Anikan. not only is she negative for the trait by all indication, there’s no other parent.
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:20 pm
Also given new movies are coming out and the shitting upon the prequels gave them; the EU is basically worthless.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:34 pm
Midichlorians are analogous to mitochondria, yes? Then they are inherited only from the mother.
dianne:
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:35 pm
Is it weird that I’ve made it sort of a hobby to rewrite crappy movies & TV shows into halfway good ones. at least in my head?
I hope not, since I do the same thing. The Matrix is a frustrating one because there’s part of a good movie in there, with a bunch of BS around it making suspension of disbelief difficult. In my version of The Matrix:
1. Movies 2 and 3 didn’t happen. In fact, couldn’t because 1 takes a radically different turn.
2. Neo doesn’t ask for a bunch of guns to go rescue Morpheus, he uses a bunch of ID cards and bluffs his way through. Because one must provide SOME fan service, he ends up getting revealed on his way out and has to go to the roof, do a little hand to hand combat, and take the helicopter, much like in the actual movie.
3. The Oracle tries to convince Neo that Morpheus is not a hero, but rather a villain protagonist by pointing out the inordinate number of bystanders they’ve been killing with their various activities throughout the movie, under Morpheus’ leadership. It doesn’t quite take, but sets the scene for…
4. Snark to snark battle between Neo and Agent Smith which ends with them realizing that they’ve both been duped by their respective leaders and join forces.
5. They figure out a way to let people know the “truth” and decide whether to stay in the Matrix or leave it for the “real world”.
6. It is revealed to the audience that the “real world” is just the next layer of illusion, thus accounting for any residual nonsense. The characters don’t realize yet. Maybe there is a sequel to be had somewhere.
7. The purpose of the Matrix is not to provide energy, though they do use the energy generated by human bodies because it’s there. The purpose is to provide the maximum number of programmers to solve some impending problem that the AIs have. Not sure what exactly. But that’s why it’s always the 1990s in the matrix: that’s the peak of the dotcom boom so the time when the most people would be working in programming.
In short, I’m looking for fewer guns, more snark, and a deeper conspiracy. Think it’d sell as a remake?
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:36 pm
@SG
The analogousness of them is not verified AFAIK. Also since midichlorians are in all life (If I’m remembering the guy from Taken correctly) they would probably not be due to all those asexual creatures. Though that also raises the question of what threshold of midicount == sensitivity.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:38 pm
Rarg.
Socio-gen
*drums fingers together Mr. Burns’ style* Excellent.
Azkyroth
1.
Ha! Well played. I see we have at least one beer-preference (lack of preference?) in common.
JAL
I am much delayed in the chorus, but it is so good to see you back. In my skimming I’ve caught your dental and other troubles and I’m so so sorry. I really hope things look up soon and you are relieved of the tooth pain. I feel for you. I’m glad you’re checking in. *pile of hugs* to be collected at your leisure.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:40 pm
We share a lack of lack of taste.
dianne:
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:42 pm
Esteleth, some money sent. Will see what I can do about putting more in the account so it’s transferable.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 2nd, 2013 at 5:52 pm
Obviously, midichlorial DNA expression is regulated by epigenetic markers, which are subject to environmental stressors.
So, no problem:
Shmi’s midichlorians can reproduce at too low a density in her own body, while passing on to Anakin a variant which reproduces much more often.
consciousness razor:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:03 pm
Couldn’t she have been infected by them, and the infection became/made the fetus? I mean, if they’re in every organism, a particularly virulent strain could come along from presumably any organism (could be from basically anywhere, because wookieepedia says she wasn’t born on Tatooine). Maybe she came into contact with a force-sensitive womp rat that couldn’t do much with its powers. Or who knows? Maybe it could.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:05 pm
…alternatively she could have been force-sensitive and never trained?
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:14 pm
If midichlorians are typically inherited from parent to child, as they evidently are, they have probably diverged enough that one species’ midichlorians won’t work in another’s cells.
Midichlorians aren’t going to substitute for a Y chromosome, so she must already have one of her own.
I’m just saying, epigenetic switching is more common than horizontal gene transfer in animals.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:14 pm
Guh! You’re making this too complicated!
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:16 pm
Alternatively there is a father and Shimi is a horrible liar
dianne:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:18 pm
Well, if you’re going to get all practical and sensible, Ing…
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:18 pm
Also possible.
I looked at Wookiepedia’s explanation already. It’s far stupider than anything we’ve come up with here.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:19 pm
Or (and this is going out on a limb), the scriptwriters were pressed for time and figured that, with all the other holes in the plots, no one would notice the massive holes surrounding the midichlorians?
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:22 pm
@SGBM
Taking a guess that it’s that a Sith Lord used his mojo to impregnate Shimi via Midichlorians across the galaxy?
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:23 pm
Also three comments ago we surpassed the amount of thought the actual writers gave the subject
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:28 pm
Ing is prescient:
Almost exactly right.
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:32 pm
Serious question arises on whether you can transfer force abilities via blood transfusion or some other way to induce a probiotic colonization.
Logically I can’t see why you couldn’t…which raises the question of why the Sith mad scientists tried to use vodoo to make their ubbermesh rather than conventional cloning and GM (that is mastered in this setting).
You know one that can even be programed to be obedient.
cicely (The Lesser of Two Measles):
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:33 pm
There’s a much more straightforward explanation for Anakin’s conception:
*waving hand*
“We never had sex. I am not the sperm donor you’re looking for.”
-
michaeld:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:35 pm
OOOO Not at all Dianne I’ve been thinking over Star trek V :P
1. Kirk as a trained diplomat, Bones for support and Sulu as captain of the excelsior travel to nimbus IV only to have the crew mutiny when faced with Sybok. First officer a Vulcan sympathetic to Sybok’s views that could play off him.
2. Scotty, Spock, Uhurah and Chekov have to try to mount a rescue in the still damaged enterprise. Scotty trying to push the ship farther and get to Kirk before Syboks plans lead to disaster.
3. The story is then Kirk on the excelsior trying to sabotage and slow the ship while Spock tries to catch up in time to save Kirk.
I haven’t worked out much beyond that but it already sounds better then what made it on the screen.
cicely (The Lesser of Two Measles):
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:40 pm
Hey, gang…is there any reason for JAL not to use accumulated funds to get her teeth afore they get her, and worry about moving her later? Call me a Nervous Nelly, but I had an abscess nearly kill me, once—and that was only one tooth gone over to the Dark Side. It sounds as if her whole mouth is in open revolt.
-
consciousness razor:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:43 pm
Sure, but this is a very rare event, so what’s more probable in most cases doesn’t help much. I’m sticking with my new theory that I have about the womp rat. It is my theory that belongs to me, which is to say that it is mine.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:48 pm
You are attempting to reconcile the prequels with the original trilogy and the EU?
Why?
Ain’t no thing.
*handwave*
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:54 pm
I have no money at stake, but my feeling is that saving real teeth via crown or root canals and riding abscesses is preventative medicine, and should be done forthwith. My 20 mils.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:56 pm
Seconded, thus far.
Markita Lynda—threadrupt:
January 2nd, 2013 at 6:58 pm
Should we be facilitating Horde migration out of certain U.S. states? Abortion in the
crosshairsSURVEYOR’S MARKScrosshairs: “in some states, like Ohio, Wisconsin, Arkansas, and Arizona, women’s health and their right to choose are being seriously threatened.”dianne:
January 2nd, 2013 at 7:01 pm
I agree. Tooth care is not optional. Money can be raised again, but teeth once gone are gone. JAL, please find a dentist you can work with and ask for money if you need it.
chigau (違う):
January 2nd, 2013 at 7:01 pm
Yes, JAL should have something done about her teeth, if possible.
cicely (The Lesser of Two Measles):
January 2nd, 2013 at 7:05 pm
I think that my cold and I are going to call it an early night. ‘Night, all.
-
dianne:
January 2nd, 2013 at 7:06 pm
It’s far stupider than anything we’ve come up with here.
At first I took this statement as a challenge. Then I read SGBM’s link to the actual canonical explanation and realized it was a challenge I was destined to fail. I won’t say I’ve never come up with a stupid plot device, but that level of epic stupidity…it is beyond me.
chigau (違う):
January 2nd, 2013 at 7:07 pm
Sleep well, cicely.
FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker):
January 2nd, 2013 at 7:10 pm
JAL: Please take the money and fix your teeth. Constant pain makes everything hard and untreated dental abscesses can be fatal. If you later need get out of town money I will be glad to donate more.
ImaginesABeach:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:35 pm
I support the plan to take care of the teeth. It’s hard to take care of other people when you are in pain.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:43 pm
I am wholeheartedly in favor of relabeling (at least part of) the Get JAL Outta Dodge Fund the Fix JAL’s Mouth Fund.
I mean, shit. It is hard to take care of others, or yourself, or get crap done in general, if you’re in pain. And if your teeth are falling out, then you’ll struggle to stay properly nourished as well.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 2nd, 2013 at 8:59 pm
JAL:
I had a low-level abscess for 5 to 15 years. I ended up losing the tooth but also lost the 3 or 4 sinus infections every year. If there is a way to get the teeth done, do it.
morgan:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:14 pm
JAL, messing around with the failing teeth is not an option. Rotting dentition can kill you. This is not an exaggeration. And it has fuck all to do with if you brushed and flossed. Some folks have poor tooth resources (genetics) and I am one of them. I speak from long, long painful experience.
Allowing all that infection to course about in your body (we swallow it, ya know) literally poisons your body, especially your heart. If someone else here wants to get into the medical specifics here, please do.
In the meantime PLEASE use the Get JAL Outta Dodge Fund to fix your teeth. Please. For the little one. Moms are handy to have around, and keep around.
MikeG:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:21 pm
N^th-ing the support for re-allocating the moving fund to the teeth fund. I don’t remember if I was involved in this round or not, but I’ll do what I can to replenish when the time comes.
(possible trigger warning)
Not only is it tough on physical nourishment to not have some chompers, but it’s brutal on the psyche. I broke a molar to below the gumline, but not quite the root, on some freaking pizza (f u digiorno) and couldn’t get it fixed right away. Yeah, I was mildly in pain and couldn’t chew on that side, but I had nightmares about all the rest of the teeth following that molar and saying “fuck it! We’re out.” the helplessness compounded with the pain and fear in a really nasty way.
When I was able to get it done, (tooth out b/c of the infection from waiting, and a bridge over the chasm) there was still some pain, but it was different. And it seemed like had moved just a bit to the side of damocles’ sword. And they gave me lorcet.
chigau (違う):
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:29 pm
In the morning, I’m making an appointment with my dentist.
StevoR, fallible human being:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:29 pm
Via ninemsn & apologies if someone has already beaten me to posting this here :
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2013/01/03/11/23/father-of-indian-rape-victim-speaks-out
What can you say? Tragic needlessly lost life. No justice. Yet. My condolences, for whatever little they are worth, to her friends and family. She was clearly a wonderful person and who knows how many lives are now going to be the poorer without her?
MikeG:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:30 pm
Correction to my #338: last ‘graph: there was still some pain for a few days.
Lorcet took care of that nicely. I didn’t finish even half of the ‘script.
StevoR, fallible human being:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:31 pm
@ JAL :
Virtual hugs and support from me if you want them.
You are a good person , perhaps better than I’ll ever be and deserve better.
ednaz:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:36 pm
Another vote for JAL to please see the dentist. : )
StevoR, fallible human being:
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:49 pm
Not sure if folks have already seen but good Aussie website here :
http://theantibogan.wordpress.com/
If anyone’s interested.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 9:57 pm
I am getting caught up on the Lounge and may I just say you all are geeking out.
and I LOVE it. Carry on!
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:02 pm
So, I just read all of the “Why do you hate feminism?” thread.
And based on my observations, the reasons seem to be:
1. Bitches, man.
2. My ex-wife is a bad person.
3. Men are made to join the army/get sent to prison.
and
4. There have been some women, at some point in history, who have had at least some power over at least some men.
Am I missing anything important?
I fail to find any of those “arguments” particularly insightful.
Owlmirror:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:06 pm
@Kat:
Hm.
Was that a deliberate borrowing from Ramoth-Gilead, or is it a case of memory being like a whatchacallit?
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:06 pm
dianne:
I love your change to the Matrix.
I will say I am a fan of well choreographed fight scenes, so I enjoyed the Neo vs Agent Smith army in Reloaded, as well as the climactic battle in Revolutions(which I may watch now…)
****
I could listen to you all talk Star Wars for hours.
****
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:12 pm
G’night, all.
I actually have work tomorrow.
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:14 pm
@Tony
Well then settle in. Damn were the prequels ever wasted potential. I think there was a way to make Vader both sympathetic and frightening with his story being one like McBeth of someone who otherwise would be monstrous being sympathetic because of protagonist status and fate conspiring against them. My take on it would be that Palpatine arranges through a manipulated servant, a Jedi that left the order dissatisfied that the Jedi are enforcers of status quo rather than actors for justice a civil war. He uses this as the backdrop for his plants sowing seeds of discord and paranoia with infiltrators and traitors around every corner. Once the Republic is in a nice panic he does his master stroke and arranges an orbital strike against the Jedi temple, framing the death of the loyal Jedi on the separatist sympathizing Jedi. He then manipulates Anikan, irate and wanting to avenger his order to hunt down the traitors (ie the surviving Jedi). This way he leads Anikan down the Dark Side, getting him to cross the moral event horizon willingly and for noble intentions. That way once everything is done Anikan realizes the monster he’s become has destroyed anyone who could have helped him utterly breaking his will.
morgan:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:21 pm
I’m feeling so awfully weary tonight. There is so much deliberate horror in the world and the good people are helpless in the face of it simply because they are good.
I try not to cry too often simply because it harms me. The world hurts me.
Good night.
SallyStrange: Elite Femi-Fascist Genius:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:27 pm
Okay, so, HuffPo has this article featured twice on the front page:
Before you click on the link, I propose a game: what do you predict one or some or all of the five ways women sabotage their marriages likely to be?
1. Not letting their man think that you really, really need him, regardless of whether you really are codependent
2.
3.
4.
5.
SallyStrange: Elite Femi-Fascist Genius:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:29 pm
Ah shucks morgan, I’m sorry if my post bothers you. It seems inappropriate now given your sentiment. Hope you feel less weary after some rest.
Happiestsadist, opener of the Crack of Doom:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:39 pm
So it’s been months since I’ve been around these parts. Threadrupt doesn’t seem sufficient to describe where I am.
Either way, I apparently cannot stick a flounce from this joint. *pulls up chair*
morgan:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:39 pm
Thanks Sally. There is nothing that is not complex. Just sometimes my sardonic humor can’t overcome the horror. Again. Good night.
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:41 pm
@Sally
Not enough sex
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:45 pm
Yeah, I also don’t see why not.
Wait, what’s the rare event? Virgin birth? But I didn’t invoke epigenetics to explain that. (I’m assuming it can be explained by the, uh, usual mechanisms of virgin birth.)
Is the birth of a Force-sensitive child to parents who aren’t Force-sensitive very rare? That’s all I’m trying to explain.
I’ll grant that it’s better than the canon.
Improbable Joe:
January 2nd, 2013 at 10:45 pm
Ing:
Nice take on the potential prequels that could have been. One of my main beefs with the prequels is that they were overly complex for absolutely no good reason. I didn’t need trade federations or secret clone factories or pod races or any of that bullshit, because thinking about any of it for more than 30 seconds makes it fall apart in a jumble of illogic. What it should have or could have been is Anakin Skywalker sacrificing everything for the Jedi order, and then failing a test like the one that Luke took in that creepy tree-cave on Dagobah. Then he gets adopted by other failed Jedi who seem OK but who are really being led/ manipulated by Palpatine. Maybe they do some good where the overly strict and bureaucratic Jedi Order can’t or won’t intervene, but it is all leading to a confrontation between the two groups. Then your bit about breaking his will and turning him to the Dark Side.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:13 pm
Esteleth @346:
Yikes! You read the whole thing??
Did you have a strong drink or two handy?
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:14 pm
But MY ex-wife is a bad person and I don’t hate feminism, though certain generalizations really rub me the wrong way… >.>
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:16 pm
happiestsadist:
Good to have you back. I had wondered where you went.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:20 pm
Morgan:
Sleep well. Hopefully when you wake, you will feel better.
****
SallyStrange@352:
Nagging?
consciousness razor:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:20 pm
Ah, I misunderstood. I figured magic-epigenetics in a magical universe could do that sort of thing, if it wanted to. Even making normal Y chromosomes from scratch, if that would make a convenient plot device.
Like womp rats, for example? They already play a key role in the plot, because getting all that target practice with them was clearly how Luke was able to destroy the Death Star. It’s hard to compare one miracle with another, but I don’t think it’s a big stretch.
I have no idea. I doubt George Lucas really thought about it. There aren’t many Jedi (or Sith) compared to size of the population in the whole galaxy, so it looks like it’s pretty rare to me. But maybe the vast majority of Force-sensitives aren’t accepted and trained as “official” Jedi for some reason I’d also have to make up…. having to do with womp rats, probably.
How often do Sith Lords will a being into existence, which backfires when it becomes a good person, which then double-backfires when he becomes bad, which then triple-backfires when he suddenly decides at the last moment to help his unambiguously-good son by doing a finishing move on a Sith Lord, which somehow “balances” everything?
Happiestsadist, opener of the Crack of Doom:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:22 pm
Mostly to PET, tumblr and bed.
But I shall wedge FTB back into the list of things that eat all my time.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:26 pm
One thing I didn’t like about the prequels was the wasted opportunity to develop new civilizations and cultures. There were so many clones and robots, I often can’t remember many living beings aside from those already established. The Republic, and later the Empire, covered a large territory. But who were the beings living in that territory? Take away clones, robots, Sith lords, and Jedi and who is left?
chigau (違う):
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:29 pm
*googles womprats*
*finds wookieepedia*
***waitaminnit***
womp rats are ROUS?
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:31 pm
Oh yeah…what about the difference in technology between pt 3 and New Hope? I know real life tech enabled Lucas to have greater technology in the prequels, but is there any reconciling the pitiful ships in a New Hope with the much more advanced ones in Episode 3?
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:33 pm
@Tony
I shit you not the WOG is post war time recession
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:56 pm
WOG?
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 2nd, 2013 at 11:59 pm
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:15 am
*Goes scampering after the ROUS*
*stops*
…what?
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:15 am
Thanks SGBM.
I am checking out some other examples of WOG, but they are blocked out. Why is that? To avoid spoilers?
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:19 am
Yep, spoilers are whited out. You can view them by highlighting the whited out portions, or you can “become known” to the wiki, and there’s a fiddly bit in your settings that you can change to “show spoilers”.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:23 am
!!! No, sir. We are discussing the perfectly natural ordinary non-magical epigenetics of a magical microorganism.
Honestly, I’d be more comfortable with brontosauruses here.
Pish. To ascertain whether it’s relatively rare for Force-sensitive people to be born to non-sensitive parents, the relevant population to sample is all Force-sensitive people, not everyone in the galaxy.
Well, that’s fine. Probably true even. No reason to suspect it’ll skew the sample, anyway.
Your womp rat mind tricks won’t work on me, because I’m too simple to even guess where you’re going with this.
+++++
ROUS in space!
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:28 am
Though if we’re going to pick on the movies…why the hell do we never see anyone use that handy stun setting after they shoot Leia? I’d think that a shock wave that knocks out any humanoid it hits and you don’t have to rely on Storm Trooper aiming for would be useful.
FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker):
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:34 am
Esteleth @346, you forgot: You feminists are all so mean to me. Though to be fair t hat might be included in your #1.
yubal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:34 am
Hey all!
Please welcome our little brand new baby boy. He came out at 8 pounds via emergency c-section a few days ago. He is perfectly healthy and his mother is well, too. Mommy, me and his three older sisters love him to infinity.
I hope he quits messing with loose cords around him and stays as healthy as he is.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:40 am
SGBM:
I blame you for getting me sucked into tvtrotropes…
consciousness razor:
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:43 am
Like I said, I misunderstood. My mistake.
Such blatant wishful thinking. Fictional realities are not whatever you want them to be. They are what they fictionally are. Brontosauruses are not likely to pop out of thin air, into a fictional existence where they don’t belong. How do you call yourself a skeptic?
Yeah, that makes sense. But don’t forget to check the Force-sensitive womp rats, etc. I mean, I didn’t think it was just about “people” and other sentient species, unless there’s some reason to think being sentient would have an effect on that. Then again, we are talking about psychic powers here, so I could easily be persuaded there is such a reason.
I was going back to where I already was: I doubt George Lucas really thought about it. That’s why MagicWompRatsDoneIt.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:45 am
Yeah, some people give warnings along with the link, but I don’t think those warnings do any good. It’s not like they really keep you from clicking deeper and deeper.
For what it’s worth, I’m sorry.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:50 am
Yubal:
Congratulations on the new addition to your family!
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:53 am
No need for sorry.
I am having a blast.
yubal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:55 am
Please, don’t die before I do.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:56 am
How much does it cost to build a Death Star?
****
Or a Warworld?
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:57 am
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:58 am
Tony
Sucked into a Wiki-Walk, huh?
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:06 am
yubal
Congratulations on the new cub!
gilliel
Running behind on things, but here’s a belated “I’m sorry” and “Best of luck to your mum” along with your choice of *headbonks* or *hugs*. IANAD, but yellow skin makes me think “liver troubles”. For whatever it’s worth, I’m hoping it’s something fixable.
Akira MacKenzie:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:06 am
I’ve been doing that with the Star Wars movies ever since I got over my childhood awe with them and realized what utter drivel they were.
1. The First and foremost thing that I changed in my version was the paternity of our hero. For me the line “No Luke, I am your father” was when the franchise officially took an Evel-Knivel-on-a-rocket-sled leap over the proverbial Carcharodon. (See 2 for the close second.) Therefore Luke’s father and Lord Vader go back to being two completely different people, as was originally intended.
2) Ditto the whole “Luke and Leia are long lost twins” plot point. Lucas a perfectly good love triangle going with Han/Leia/Luke, until he started to get ideas. Allowing George Lucas to get ideas is never a good idea. He needs handlers.
3) On that note, there was no “another.” Hear that, Ben? Buffy… I mean, Yoda? That boy WAS your only hope.
4) Han shot first. He will forever had shot first.
5) No fricken’ Ewoks.
6) Stormtroopers would be far more competent marksmen. (Otherwise, why the hell would anyone be afraid of them?)
7) Since Vader is no longer Luke’s daddy, his importance is downgraded. He’s the Emperor’s hachetman, not Space Jesus.
8) No second Death Star. Come up with something original!
9) The whole series ends with Luke, after finally defeating Vader in a lightsaber duel, sacrifices himself to keep Palpatine from fleeing the final rebel attack, thus destroying the three last Force-users and making sentients fend themselves rather than be protected or dominated by an elite breed of psionic supermen.
10) The prequels never fucking happened.
consciousness razor:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:11 am
Ridiculous. All of that is ridiculous.
For example:
But:
That would only make sense if you’re a wookiee and a solipsist, but I would accept that as an explanation.
Hekuni Cat, MQG:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:18 am
Giliell – I’m so sorry. *hugs*
Louis – *hugs* I hope your ear feels better very soon.
Esteleth – I would like to contribute to the JAL and/or Dalillama fund, but I need to do it by mail. I sent you an email at the email address you suggested above. Thank you.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:32 am
Well sure that’s ridiculous, because you took it from the Behind The Scenes section, which discusses the contents of Lucas’s stupid head.
I think this bit is supposed to be in-the-fictional-universe, though:
Therefore a Boltzmann brontosaurus popping out of thin air would be totally canon. Dinosaurs existed in the past of this galaxy far away!
It’s as plausible as sapient womp rats, alright.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:42 am
Ha!
Took me a while.
consciousness razor:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:50 am
But that’s extremely improbable. It would be more likely if it were a very small, disorderly brontosaurus without the rest of the fictional universe it would’ve popped into.
Not even close. But you see? My theory* can even be quantified:
*The person who wrote that is obviously a time traveler who stole my theory, to make an easy buck like Marty from Back to the Future II but with much more Earth-shattering results.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 2:25 am
Akira:
But with all your changes, how will there be enough to pad out a trilogy with? /s
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 2:56 am
Good morning all!
yubal
Congratulations! *confetti and champagne*
Portia
OOOoooh, me too, me too, I have a lack of a lack of taste!! :)
re: re-writing movies
Lately I’ve been tweaking things in (mostly) children’s movies to make them awesome movies for women, not just boy/man-saves-family/world, and so far, this is what I’ve come up with:
1) in Megamind, at the point where he refuses to go back to save the city and the girl comes to convince him and he still says no, instead of having her just walk away, she thinks to herself, I can do this! and then she does;
2) in Ice Age 4 (I KNOW it’s a terrible movie but we were pre-viewing it for kid-watchable-ness, and it’s going into the garbage pile), instead of having all this talk about Manny going gto rescue his girls by somehow meeting them on the land-bridge, the girls end up saving him through their own powers and confidence (also, lots of text wrong with that movie with father-daughter possession issues);
3) in Cars 2, making the Finn McRocket (or whatever his name is in English) a female character, otherwise changing nothing.
That’s just for starters. I had another great one, a turning point to take the story in a whole new direction, but I’m forgetting what it is at the moment.
As for the Star Wars re-think, carry on! So far, it’s awesome.
+++
Katherine
Also, I’m not sure if I stepped on any toes or lines, but I apologize for my last comment of last night; I went ahead and gendered you by accident, and I’m not sure if you approve, so if you don’t, I’m terribly, terribly sorry! I only thought about it once I was turning the computer off (after Husband’s 16th walk-by It’s really late, you should go to bed… and I went Yes, yes, see, I’m already switching off and hit submit without any deep thought. Sorry for that. :/ French toast?
Beatrice:
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:05 am
Happiestsadist,
Good to read you again!
—-
yubal,
Congrats on the new family member!
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:22 am
What is the general opinion of Babylon 5 round these here parts?
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:31 am
I feel so limited in my science fiction universe knowledge. I only know Star Wars reasonably well, and that’s from years ago (read a lot of the EU stuff, too), Star Trek – meh, some but not so much, Babylon 5 – not at all, Stargate (of any stripe) pissed me off because the movie was so much better on its own (although yes, it does open great opportunities for all kinds of things, but the original Colonel Jack was just… too angry to be transferred long-term into a TV series, so I haven’t watched it), annnnnd… oh yes, Battlestar Galactica started well and became predictable by virtue of trying to be unpredictable and all weirdy and woo-y by the end. Oh well. Fun to watch, though.
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:36 am
I wish Babylon 5 was available on Netflix. :(
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:23 am
Good morning
So, nothing new on the mum-front, I guess I’ll get some news during the day.
As for the yellow and the liver: Well, she had an untreated Hep B, a damaged pancreas and has marinated both over the last years in strong alcohol. Any questions?
My neck still hurts, if it’s not much better I’ll se a doc tomorrow.
And since I need to take my mind off, I read Sally’s link.
So, let’s see
We start with a classic:
Yeah, men, women, totally different. Mars, Venus. We only coinhabit this planet accidentially and against all odds manage to reproduce with each other.
And as often in such pieces, women seemingly get the better deal by getting ascribed some superior skill. “Misandry”, our MRA f(r)iends would call it. Female supremacy! Let’s see how well it serves us.
So, what have we got to do to make our marriages work?
Stop being unhappy, woman! Who are you to demand that your needs are met when he clearly knows better what you want?
Poor guy. Really, and there was me thinking that my husband was capable of learning how to load a washing machine without turning everything into shades of pink and grey and remembering that indeed I’m allergic to nuts. And while I though that this actually happened, I must have somehow broken him. So, ladies, next time your guy gets you a vaccum cleaner for christmas so you don’t have to use the noisy old one while he watches football, say thank you.
Oh, and that depression you got from permanently appearing happy while never actually being cared for? Get the fuck over it!
Yeah, you’re a respected and valued professional. Why did you think that that was something you should get out of a relationship as well?
So, we want more “help” around the house. I get it. Women still do the housework, men help. No no no, we don’t actually share. And if he lowers himself to actually picking up a broom you now have to be really happy. He’s not doing this because he damn well lives here, too. No, he does it just to please you. Remember, he isn’t your employee, he doesn’t have to do this!
Who would have guessed?
Poor guys. Only able to think and feel with their dicks.
Feeling exhausted? How dare you, little fucktoy? Punish him? Well, it totally doesn’t matter that he just treated you like shit, spread your legs, bitch! And you’re missing out! And there’s silly me again who thought that sex was really good and intimate when we both wanted it. Dear Laura, I actually did what you suggested. Been there, done that. Had sex with him cause I thought that he reaaaally needed it and just faked it. The result wasn’t intimacy, the result was feeling empty, dirty and really, a fake.
Women, flimsy creatures, getting divorced without ever thinking twice.
Well, maybe it’s because his needs were much more met than hers? Just an idea. And I have a feeling that following dear Laura’s advice might actually add to that…
Uppity women, demanding more out of a marriage than being uncheated on and unbeaten. Demanding that their men share their lives and duties and are actually involved! In short, thinking that marriage should make them happy! It’s all your fault, bitches. He takes out the trash, brings you flowers once a year against which you’re allergic and kindly wakes you up when the baby cries at night and you have the audacity NOT to be happy!
Remember, guys are poor ducks who really can’t be asked to do anything.
No, actually I don’t. You have already explained what your bar for him being a perfect husband is: Not cheating and not beating. That’s awefully low, I think, so you added him “helping” occasionally and bringing some presents.
Actually that’s true. But I could expect that somebody who cares about our relationship as much as I do would actually at least make the effort.
Yes, that’s probably true, to. Being a wonderful housewife, fucktoy, cup-cake making mum gets you recognition and praise. Sure he will say thank you and bring you even more flowers you’re not allowed to tell him are killing you. And everything will seem so fine. He is so happy and you yourself achieved that! That makes you happy, too. At least for a while. At least until that sense of emptyness, of having to be even better, having to do more, making it work, not being good enough, being totally responsible for all that shit and above all that guilt for not being as happy as dear Laura tells us we have to be gets you and you break. And then it’s still all your fault
Isn’t it funny to see what our superior skill gets us and how the poor guys suffer from it?
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:02 am
Giliell
It was the last two items that really got me. Not that the others aren’t bad enough (yes, here, have sex, because that’s what will make him happy!), but with the last two, she kind of put the dot on the i for me – because really, women shouldn’t expect men to do more around the house, or to change diapers, or to learn anything new other than the lastest sports stats. But, if you change yourself, and expect less from your man, all your problems will vanish!
Divorce that therapist already. I have a feeling that a lot of her suggestions do not include increased communication (notice, she says nothing about communicating to your husband, but a hell of a lot about how he won’t pick up on any hints or won’t accept any communications directed towards him?), rather a withholding of information, which, as we all know, is exactly what you should be doing in a long-term, loving relationship – shutting the fuck up, putting the fuck up (and out), and smiling all the way through. Because you’re happy, dammit, and don’t try to show otherwise!
Yeah, I read it this morning, too, before breakfast. I have since had breakfast and lunch, but my view of that article has not improved.
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:15 am
I have a good stone going on, and I’m ready to drift into sweet, strange slumber.
Good night everyone! (Good morning and catch you later for those just coming in!)
carlie:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:24 am
Wow, I was reading up from the bottom and assumed that article was something in Christianity Today or the like, but it was from HuffPo? Sheesh.
Threadrupt for the last couple of days. I can’t seem to manage to follow both this one and Thunderdome at the same time. The long winter break is over, but I haven’t yet had much solitude, and I’m craving it. I know it’s extremely spoiled of me to say, but trading all the people at work for all the people at home is nice, but not rejuvenating in quite all the ways. I feel like I want to go lie in one of those sensory deprivation tanks for a whole day or so. And it’s not a big deal – the kids are long past the “all over me all the time” phase, it’s just…bah. I don’t know.
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:44 am
So, the word liver cirrhosis is out. And because mum didn’t tell them they assumed it was from the Hep B. Called them and told them that they’re dealing with an alcoholic. Well, they thought so but they had assumed that she was dry. No, she ain’t, good to know. Yes, she’s still trying to keep her face and probably shortening her life by not telling the doctors what they need to know.
And I just stared at the survival-prognosis and a big fat 0 stared right back at me for the 10 years prognosis. And if I could believe that she was at an early stage which she isn’t I could believe that she had a decent chance to make it to next christmas.
Beatrice:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:00 am
Oh Giliell, I’m so sorry.
pile of *hugs*
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:03 am
@Owlmirror:
Unlikely, although I did originally use Gilead for the biblical attachment. My first novel I wrote was going to be one of those fantasy analogies for Jesus and sin sort of stories. Dramoth was just a word I made up that sounded good connected to Gilead (no wonder.)
After 16 years and many aborted re-tellings of the story, the name Dramoth Gilead is kind of a background thing anyway. It’d be like calling the Earth “Gaia” or something like that. They tend to just call it “our planet” or “our world” or even just call it Kathemega cause barely anyone lives outside of that continent.
@rq:
No harm done. I didn’t even notice. Thank you for the apology.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:08 am
Aaw hell, Giliell. I’m sorry. *hugses*
I see from another thread you have all been duly schooled that I am to be protected, fragile li’l animal that I am. Better get me a carrot and pet me a lot.
:eyeroll:
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:14 am
Ouch, Giliell *hugs*
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:21 am
Giliell
*HUGS* :(
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:25 am
It’s hilarious watching a seven-month-old someone learning the ways of the nerve endings in their appendages. Youngest has discovered that, if you hit a plastic bucket with a spoon, you get a noise (well, when mum does it, at least). He’s trying to imitate – and he keeps looking down at the hand holding the spoon with an expression clearly saying, You’re holding it wrong, dammit!
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:27 am
Also, Caine, have a pillow. And I’ll cut your [food of choice] for you, you might hurt yourself with the sharp edge of the knife. :P And stay indoors, dear, you never know what’s waiting for you outside.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:32 am
rq:
Why thank you. I’ll just lay my fuzzy brained little self down and vegetate.
Beatrice:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:43 am
That’s right, dear. You just rest your little head.
We’ll protect you from the troll baddies. [*snort*]
*pats Caine on the head*
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:59 am
:bumps Beatrice’s hand:
I guess I can only dream about having fangs. Poor, poor me. :D
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:59 am
*pinches Caine’s cheek*
There’s a good little girl.
+++
Can I stop now? I think I’m going to puke, if I keep this up. ;)
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:02 am
(But you know, Caine, next time, hand over the weaponry before engaging in meek, polite discourse, ok? :) I may be a woman, but I certainly know my place in an argument – serving the drinks with lowered eyes!)
Beatrice:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:06 am
Just make sure you puke rainbows. Wouldn’t want to scare any fragile flowers.
Ok, ok, I’m stopping now. But it is making me giggle.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:07 am
rq:
Oh, alright.
:puts sword away:
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:13 am
Beatrice
If it comes out just orange, does that mean I’m a member of the local social democrats, or had too many carrots? /not-too-sorry
I didn’t know I could upset your flowers. Do you talk to them in wee wittew baby sywabews and cooey voices? Oh, you meant the shrinking violets.
Here, I seem to have a tray full of drinks and no manly men around to drink them. Please share them with me!
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:16 am
*hands Cain a carrot*
*pets her*
Whatever you wish for.
Now we’ll all hush up and be good girls.
Give Gytha a carrot, please.
rq
That’s sweet.
We all fondly remember how the little one learned to talk and one of the first words was “bear”. All animals were bear. And then she wanted to say elephant which proved difficult to pronounce so she went “ele-, ele-, ele-, eleBEAR!” But I remember the triumph when like two weeks later she managed elephant.
So. Well. Fuck.
Obviously we’ll have to wait for a prognosis but how on earth do I tell the kids?
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:16 am
Caine – all your weapons. *tsk tsk*
Beatrice:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:20 am
rq,
You sure we’re allowed? What if a man comes and wants a drink but there is no drink because we already finished all? *hyperventilating*
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:21 am
Congrats, Yubal!
Giliell, that sucks. Hugs to you.
I am back at work. Luckily, my lieu days are Friday – Saturday, so today is my Monday/Wednesday/Friday all rolled into one. Starting slowly.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:22 am
Giliell:
She doesn’t like carrots. I’ll give her a cookie.
rq:
No. *lays firmly upon her pillow*
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:28 am
If you give a rat a cookie . . . .
mildlymagnificent:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:31 am
Oh phoooey. Booked a couple of appointments tomorrow. So now they’ve changed the weather forecast, it won’t be 41 after all, it’s headed for 44C (111 degrees in old money). I was thinking it’ll be OK, the car has a/c, but at those temperatures all you have to do is turn off the motor, get out of the car and its temperature is instantly goes to a level where you need to run the a/c for a while to even get comfortable.
And one of those appointments is near the beach, so every undercover parking space will be gone. No makeup for me tomorrow. That streaky look of half melted off makeup is not super professional. Oh well, at least we get a couple of days off before it gets back over 40 again on Monday.
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:33 am
Giliell
When the paternal grandma died last year, we went with the ‘she was really, really sick and sometimes people die when they’re really, really sick’ version. They haven’t asked too many questions about it (although Eldest did play Graveyards in his daycare for a while afterward, with another firend who had also lost a grandma – apparently, one of them plays dead while the other ‘buries’ him in pillows and other random toys…). Every now and then eldest remembers and asks about his Omīte and why she was so sick. But they accepted that (a) people can get really, really sick and (b) sometimes doctors and medicine can’t heal them completely because the disease is very, very strong. Eldest also rationalized it by noticing that, about a week before she went, Omīte stopped eating, and explained that she got too weak to fight the disease (cancer) because she stopped eating. We did explain that sometimes the disease takes too much strength, and that she didn’t even have the strength to eat, because the disease was too strong, and that it happens sometimes.
It all got a bit circular, but he doesn’t seem to have any bad effects from it. Middle child was about a year and a half, so didn’t ask too many questions, and doesn’t seem to remember his Omīte much at all.
We avoided all talk of prayer-as-saving-grace, although they got the spiel about how Omīte is in Heaven. To which eldest replied, We took her by car to the cemetery… You can’t take a car up to heaven. What will she do in the cemetery all alone? Followed by explanations about her body and decomposition and all that, which he actually enjoyed – now every time he sees a dead animal in the forest or something, he explains that it will all erode away and will leave just the bones, and eventually the bones will be gone, too.
(Also he still remembers how daddy was extremely sad when Omīte died and that Baba (his great-grandmother, Omīte’s mother) cried a lot and loudly, but he didn’t, because when someone dies isn’t a reason to cry, because people die all the time (his words).)
I had a few words about the heaven explanation, and how only some people believe in it, and that I don’t, and he seems to be ok with the difference of opinion. But he (eldest – remember, he is now 5 and a half) told me that he believes in god, because he (eldest) has a smart brain, and obviously smart brains believe in god.
Or something.
I don’t know if any of that helps, Giliell, but I read it somewhere on a Useful Blog that there’s no need to worry too much, because kids figure out a lot for themselves, as long as you keep it simple and stick to as much of the truth as they can handle.
If none of that helps, have more *hugs* and a good dose of *courage*.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:34 am
Ogvorbis:
You must have missed the latest Rattitude post. :D
carlie:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:35 am
Here you go.
Giliell, I’m so sorry about your mom.
Cannabinaceae:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:37 am
I would not be surprised if there are Pharyngulites who know, or know of, Jon Singer. If so, and if you haven’t heard, Jon Singer’s problems are not like your problems.
Prolepsis: I have been informed that the gebrokenheit of embedded links in preview is an artifact, so I hope the above came out not looking kraplich.
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:40 am
Beatrice
I see Ogvorbis has arrived. For the sake of show, I will give him one *presents Ogvorbis with drink of choice, keeping eyes lowered and mouth primly shut* and we can have the rest.
Too bad, other manly men, I’m putting shoes on!
Oh wait.
I don’t think Ogvorbis is enough of a manly man. After all, he has said that he is a feminist. *gasp*
Oh no, Beatrice, what do we do?????
Caine
Don’t make me fetch a strong man to get you off of that pillow, young lady. Surrender the weapons!
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:41 am
I miss so much around here that it is a wonder I come across as semi-coherent.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:48 am
rq:
:bares non-existent dream fangs: No.
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:48 am
carlie
Thanks for that link. :P I see there’s no orange in that rainbow.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:49 am
Giliell, about the kids – can you not go with “Grandma is very, very sick and may not get better” for now? It will at least prepare them a little bit.
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:54 am
Crap, Caine, you have forced me to summon this man (starting at 0:34). Look, he talks to squirrels (that’s close to rats, right?)!
Now surrender the weapons.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:02 am
rq:
Don’t care. :clamps mouth shut:
No.
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:06 am
Caine
I read some more of the context of you needing protection, and I retract all of my previous statements – here, have your sword back, and several more, too!!! Dammit. I applaud your courage and your ability to speak so well and directly about your personal experience, and may nobody ever shut you up about it. Not even a Nice Guy who is on Your Side, who is offering his Protection for your Wee Little Lady-Brain Feelings. *spit*
I’ll stop, else I’ll have to repair to the Thunderdome, and yeah. It’s hard being two places at once.
Audley Z. Darkheart (liar, scoundrel, broski):
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:07 am
-3°! Ack!
*wraps another blanket around self and the Darkling!*
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:08 am
(You can keep the squirrel-whisperer, though, for all he’s worth… ;) )
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:17 am
rq/Caine
Well, we already told them long ago that grandma is ill. And that we don’t know when/if she’ll get better again. Which was hard to understand because sometimes grandma seemed totally healthy and happy!
And I told them that grandma is in hospital and that we don’t know when she’ll be back.
I value honesty, even if it’s painfull. But still it will break their hearts and it pains me so much. Such an utterly needless waste of a human life.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:19 am
rq:
No kidding. I had to pick up the remains of my jaw after reading that one. Gad, did this Nice Guy™ time travel from the 17th century or something?
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:26 am
[fake Nice Guy voice] Ew, don’t talk about your rape, you’re too fragile to talk about your own rape! It makes me feel all protector-ish and I just can’t resist those feelings! I’m nice, I don’t talk about rape with women who have experienced it, because it’s too hard on them and they will be hurt! MUST SAVE WOMEN FROM HURT! [/fake Nice Guy voice] (Because fragility, and all that…)
Or something. *shudder*
Because a True Gentleman never discusses heavy subjects with the Ladeez, because that would be unGentlemanly.
I see now my outrage is expressing itself in rather repetitive phraseology.
Carry on, rq, carry on.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:32 am
rq:
Indeed. It’s been quite a long while since we had a Nice Guy™ around here. I do believe this one ran screaming from the shark tank. In the meantime, we have the ever erudite Owlglass to fill in the time:
That one is running on pure stupid. I say this in all kindness, of course.
carlie:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:37 am
He didn’t eat his carrots.
mildlymagnificent:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:37 am
Oh giliell. So sorry for you – and the rest of the family.
I’m having a hard time remembering what it was like for the kids when their father’s parents and grandmother and my grandfather died. They just seemed to deal with it pretty well. The littler one had the same kind of practical knowledge type approach that rq talks about.
If you just stick to the she’s very sick and she may not get better line for the time being, they’ll either prompt you for more details/expectations or they won’t.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:39 am
Caine:
Agreed.
I don’t think I have actually seen Nice Guy in action (other than a quoted example) since I started to become aware of this shit.
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:40 am
Caine
The kindness oozes from your pores.
I read through that thread, not believing my eyes. Apparently, the best of humanity is once again showing up to show us the wrongness of our ways.
Also, seriously, Nice Guys used to be more common? I hadn’t yet seen one in the wild. I thought they were all extinct and replaced with MRAs and the like…
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:42 am
Caine, Ogvorbis
I bet he left the thread because everyone was so bent on hurting Caine by letting her talk about her rape, and he didn’t want to be a party to that. :P
theophontes (坏蛋):
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:48 am
{threadcrupt}
Why is it that whisky tastes better out of teacups?
Link.
Pteryxx:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:48 am
Happy perihelion, everybody. Thought I’d leave this here – via Markita Lynda over at Ophelia’s a bit ago, the full story of trombonist Abbie Conant vs the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra, forerunner of screened auditions:
http://www.osborne-conant.org/ladies.htm
This excerpt reminded me of the women-can’t-do-military spat we had a few weeks back:
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:57 am
I’m so sorry Giliell. That really fucking sucks. =(
—-
—
Seriously, I’d love to get my teeth fixed. There’s free places, or lower rate places I’m on the waiting list for. I’ve been on those lists for months and the closest possible opening is in March. Of course, having an actual bit of funds would widen the list of places to call.
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:07 am
I just woke up
Congratulations, yubal.
Giliell, so sorry.
Caine, pillow? weapons?
(I’m off to find meaning)
dianne:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:10 am
I’m sorry, Giliell! Is there any hope of your mother stopping her use of alcohol and getting a transplant? Also, is she at risk for withdrawal? If so, someone needs to tell her doctors how much she’s drinking so she can be put on prophylaxis. Withdrawal from alcohol can be bad.
Hugs to you and your little ones.
dianne:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:13 am
Random idea for improving Star Wars: Since it’s specifically stated to occur outside the Milky Way before humans evolved, let’s say Lucas got it wrong and the people populating the SW universe are completely non-humanoid. I’d find it more interesting if the heroes looked more like, say, Jabba. But without the quasi-human face. Make them look really different…
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:19 am
rq:
Oh gods, yes. We had marathon threads back at Pharyngula Sciborg where they’d show up on a regular basis (any thread to do with women, natch.)
Ogvorbis, the last ones I remember were in the third e-gate spinoff thread and I think by that time, you’d fled to save your sanity. I don’t remember the Nice Guy™ all that well, it was ‘chassoto’ who was driving us crazy, especially Audley, with his “hey, you don’t get raped every day, you should be cheerful!” shit.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:21 am
Chigau:
The Matt Dillahunty thread. You’re looking for ‘jacksul’.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:26 am
Didn’t work.
Yeah, I think I had fled by then because I was starting to remember things.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:36 am
OMG BUT AL GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE
Al Jazeera buys Al Gore’s Current TV
HE HATES AMERICA AND BUSINESS AND LITTLE BUNNIES
dianne:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:36 am
You might think that’s because men do things to make marriage untenable — like cheat or hit them — but I hear about women divorcing because he didn’t help with the baby, he was emotionally unavailable, or because they grew apart. Countless women tell me they divorced because their husbands weren’t capable of meeting their needs.
Um…why is this a bad thing?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:37 am
Ogvorbis:
Yes. Those threads were really tough for you, more than for the rest of us.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:42 am
I doubt it was more tougherest for me. It was, however, a fantastic clue-by-four that woke me up to the existence of misogyny and the need for a strong feminist movement. As well as things like gendered insults and silencing tactics. It was, seriously, an education.
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:46 am
Caine
I have seen jacksul.
90 more comments to end-of-thread.
I’ll be back.
Pteryxx:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:46 am
Holy moley y’all have been busy over the year-turn… um, I’m trying to learn a new skill *cough* namely restraining myself from reflexively reading and catching up on ALLL THE THINGS. Most of this break I just took was spent in me-time and we-time practice. (And it does take dedicated practice, like piano.)
Caine, Oggie, thanks for jumping on me so warmly in the other thread. Guess even quietly vanishing doesn’t stop folks being friends. ♥
Giliell: I’m so sorry for your sake and the little ones. *pile o’ sympathies* As I recall, the alcoholism denial’s been a long hard fight for y’all… maybe the medical staff can intervene now that it’s immediate, and maybe provide y’all with some support. Sounds like explaining to the kids is bad enough without that.
JAL, is there a Save JAL’s Teeth effort going on now? (Teeth are freakin’ important!)
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:49 am
Dianne
She has been on one of her self-administered cures, so she was mostly beyond the worst withdrawl, I think. Ahh, and the hospital wonderfully didn’t have any cough-remedy without alcohol…
As for the rest: no idea. The whole thing is so in the beginning that we don’t know much yet. Not what her actual state is, not what the possibilities are, not what the prognosis is. I have no idea if we’re talking about weeks or months or years.
Beatrice:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:04 am
I finally read the comments in Matt Dillahunty thread.
*headdesk*
Caine, I hope you weren’t bothered by our joking about your fragility. It was mocking the stupid notion that we should treat you with kid gloves.
theophontes (坏蛋):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:07 am
@ Giliell
Sorry to hear about your mother.
(My previous post may seem a bit out of place here right now. I should not just drop things into the lounge without checking. :(
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:12 am
Beatrice:
Hell no! I’m not fragile when it comes to talking about rape, mine or anyone else’s. I’m many other things – angry, empathetic, supportive. Not fragile. I (and a lot of others) have worked damn hard to make this a space where people could talk about things which have happened to them and they can talk any way they need and want to, without fear of censure. I’ll be damned if I’ll ever shut my mouth over something like rape.
Anyway, all the joking was fine. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:14 am
Pteryxx:
It does not. It would be nice to see more of you, though.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:16 am
So sorry you’ve gotten more bad news, Giliell. Keeping you and your family in my thoughts. : ( and more hugs for you.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:21 am
And I thank you and a lot of others. Coming to terms with my past has been painful but now I am actually figuring out who I am (not all of which I like) rather than what I pretended to be.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:25 am
A little good news for your Thursday. Illinois Senate makes moves to ban assault weapons and high capacity magazines. (Cue the screeching about FREEEEDUUUMMMM).
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:35 am
I’ve caught-up on the Matt thread.
golly
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:37 am
Ogvorbis:
Yes, it’s painful. And difficult. And often depressing. It gets better, though, it gets better. You reach a point where you lose a lot of pain you’ve carried for years on end and that’s a damn good feeling.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:40 am
I am trying to determine if I want to read the Matt Dillahunty thread.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:55 am
JAL:
Thanks for the link to Katherine’s site!
—
yubal:
Congratulations!
—
rq:
I’m not much into sci-fi. I thought the Stargate SG-1 series was better than the movie. O’Neill is more sarcastic/snarky than bitter, plus it has the kickass Amanda Tapping. (I liked her in Sanctuary as well.)
—
Giliell:
I’m so terribly sorry about your mom. *hugs*
—
Caine:
And I for one appreciate what all of you have done. I may never be able to share my own experiences with anyone other than a therapist, but I know now that the choice to do so is mine. I don’t have to share, but I don’t have to be quiet to spare other people’s uncomfortable feelings, either.
What really means the most is being able to look back at what I went through with a different perspective, to hear your voices telling me I didn’t cause them to happen, I didn’t do anything wrong, and the fault lies solely with those who committed them.
—
Portia:
Good for Illinois!
—
Esteleth:
My reaction was something like Mrs. White in Clue: “it-it- the f – it -flam – flames. Flames, on the side of my face…”
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:56 am
Thank you! That is what I have been searching for! The pain (which I had no idea where it was coming from) is not gone, but it feels more manageable, more grounded in reality. And it is (slowly) starting to dissipate. Your phrasing just helped it gel. Thank you!
Beatrice:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:56 am
Ogvorbis,
I remembered your comment from the previous incarnation when I was reading Hogfather on my way to work this morning:
:D
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:58 am
Which (if I may pile on here) is really, really good. Without support here, that damn voice telling me that it really was my fault would be easier to believe, easier to accept.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 3rd, 2013 at 11:11 am
Ogvorbis:
Absolutely! Those thoughts still sneak in, but they’re always chased away by Caine and others yelling, “Bullshit!! FUCK THAT!” (I don’t know why, but Caine always sounds like Lauren Bacall in my head.)
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 11:41 am
“At no other moment is Australia so glaringly exposed as a nation of hypocrites as when the final school examination results are released. Our entire cultural ethos is built upon ideas of a fair go for all. But we sing this at precisely the same moment as we fund the most basic form of institutionalised class discrimination: a two-tiered system of public and private schooling”
Get rid of private schools to level the field for all children? Perish the thought.
Stop using public funds to subsidize private schools, thus benefitting the wealthy? Nope. Don’t wanna do that either.
(My guesses as possible responses to the article)
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 3rd, 2013 at 11:47 am
Gillilel
Big hugs.* I”m so sorry about your mother
happiestsadist, Pteryxx
big hugs, Welcome back
Everyon eles:
Pretty ‘rupt right now, and I need to go forth into the freezing cold for groceries since we have food stamps again. I shall return anon.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:00 pm
The atmosphere here has encouraged me not only to know that I could talk about my experiences if I wanted to, but to stand up for myself in regular conversation. Recognizing the silencing tactics and manipulation and microaggressions as they happen has made me feel so much better equipped to unapologetically call them out. I don’t have to be sorry that that sexist joke hurt me, and I don’t have to be sorry their feelings are hurt when I tell them I can’t tell the difference between someone who is really a misogynist and someone who is “joking.” I don’t have to be sorry the whole fire department had to go through sexual harassment training because I just wouldn’t take the bullshit anymore. I don’t have to be sorry that I want to be treated with some damn respect. I don’t have to be sorry that their efforts to make me angry about sexism have succeeded.
So thank you all. Thank you for helping me leave the apologies for the things that I need to actually apologize for. There’s plenty of those as it is.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:11 pm
Portia:
Hell, this place has helped me to actually recognize sexist jokes for what they are.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:15 pm
Just a heads up: Son of Hovind just showed up.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:32 pm
This is an act of pure barbarism:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/01/03/activists-express-outrage-over-hong-kongs-shark-fin-rooftop/
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:38 pm
Being here has helped me realize my privilege.
Being here has helped me learn to shut up and listen.
Being here has helped me understand rape culture.
Being here has helped me gain a deeper understanding of sexism.
Being here has awakened my sense of justice and desire for equality.
Being here has exposed me to the pain that other people are going through and helped strengthen my resolve to not let social injustices remain hidden.
Being here has helped me learn that not only is it ok, it is a moral imperative to speak up about social injustice.
Being here has opened my eyes to the world.
Being here has helped me understand that the problems here are connected to the problems faced by people across the world.
Being here has shown me there is nothing wrong with a man displaying traditionally feminine characteristics and vice versa.
Being here has allowed me to better understand the world through the eyes of others.
Being here has been instrumental in my development as a human being.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 3rd, 2013 at 12:48 pm
Tony:
Good list. I agree with it all and could sign my name to that.
Though I would add one more:
Being here has taught me how to divide by zero.
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:08 pm
@Ogvorbis
The trick is in the whisking of the lemon sauce
alanbagain:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:13 pm
The url says it all! Breakfast will never be the same again!!
http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/the-7-most-shameful-abuses-bacon/
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:20 pm
I have to third most of what Tony said, although I was quite strong on the ‘nothing wrong with showing feminine characteristics’ bit before I came here.
Pteryxx
Gee, who would ever have thought that a professional fucking brass player would have far above average lung capacity and very well developed chest muscles? These fucking idiots called themselves medical professionals?
Anecdotes aren’t data and all that, I used to be in band class, and I’m here to tell you that even that amateur level of wind playing can seriously boost your lung capacity. I’m a skinny little dude, to the point where I actually tend to sink in water because I’m a little too dense. Playing the tuba in high school band, however, cured me of that problem in the course of a school year, and I retained the added buoyancy until I stopped playing. So, an actual professional good enough to audition for a real orchestra? I’d expect lungs like free-diver on someone like that.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:26 pm
…what is this I missed about women needing protection from arguments? O.o
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:28 pm
Portia
You made the entire fire department go through sexual harassment training, just for you? You are like… My stepping stone on the way to becoming Beatrice and then Caine, or another of the uber-angry regular commenters.
I’m only at the point where I’m ok trying to point sexist things out to the Husband, and on Facebook, but not in large crowds in real life, yet. Not yet. But I feel myself getting there. I still feel the need to apologize for my reactions, because oh-wow the looks people give, but it’s getting better. Because of this place.
Socio-gen
Well, I liked him (re: Colonel Jack) as the silent-ish, non-snarky, non-talkative type, but if you say he gets good snark on Stargate the series, I might give it a try, as soon as I free up some hard drive and convince the Husband it’s something we both want to watch (kind of how things work, these days…). How was the Stargate: Atlantis bit? Any good at all?
Caine
(Can I tease you again? I feel like I’ve said enough good things… ;) /snark)
Just remember, next time you want to step outside, make sure you bring a male relative with you. You know, so you don’t get lost, because women can’t handle 3-d spaces (exception: the kitchen) larger than a bed.
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:29 pm
Azkyroth
Read the Dillahunty thread. Apparently Caine needs to be more sheltered from her own experiences. We’ve been trying to convince her to give up all weapons and resort to spoonfeeding her, but she won’t co-operate.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:30 pm
I’m so glad you all have stuck around and soaked up knowledge. I’m still learning about my own privilege, thanks to this site and others. I know I’ve learned something new about my white privilege in particular when I sit back and think “Oh. Crap.” It’s a good feeling and a bad feeling to realize a new aspect you hadnt thought of before.
Azkyroth
It mostly starts here with jacksul telling Caine that if she’s upset she shouldn’t talk about being a rape victim. Because it’s upsetting, so it should not be discussed. I haven’t read too much further, because I’ve had a lot of stupid misogynist crap tossed at me IRL lately and I can’t take too much right now.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:42 pm
Yeah, I found the link earlier and glanced at it. Thinking I probably won’t read through it. :/
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:44 pm
Everyone should read the Matt thread.
It is very educational.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:46 pm
!! Everyone !!
The Thundering-fool’s fans have found my nymmy twitter account. :D :D :D
And I have already learned that:
(1) I am an idiot
(2) Being offended by hate speech and being an atheist are somehow equivalently bad. Or something.
(3) I am best referred to using the pronoun “s/he.”
(4) I would be best served never offering an opinion again.
AWESOMESAUCE.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:49 pm
rq:
Definitely try it! I only started watching because MacGyver! and then got hooked. Amanda Tapping’s character (Carter) was my favorite, though. Super-smart scientist and by-the-book military type who could kickass and was treated as an equal on the team? Yay!
Atlantis was okay during the first season, but just didn’t hold my interest after that. I had friends who preferred it to SG-1, so YMMV. Universe, on the other hand, was just plain awful and I quit after two episodes.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:50 pm
In what way? It’s not like I’m not aware of any of the problems likely to be discussed. I tend somewhat to avoid threads other than the Lounge because they tend to contain:
1) people who suck
2) people fighting against people who suck wielding a brush that’s far too broad not to be upsetting in spite of what I know intellectually about the issues
3) people who seem to be congenitally incapable of not assuming bad faith on my part and have free rein, unlike in the Lounge (see #1, at least as far as I’m concerned)
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:55 pm
rq
Well, I sort of just went to the boss’ boss and told him I was really unhappy with all the things that were being said about me by people who should really know better. His first words in response were “Yeah, we knew this guy was a huge problem. He drove off like three other women from the department.” So, had I had any interest in suing them, I would’ve been pretty well set to get them good for it. Instead, they used one of our many, many training meetings for sexual harassment awareness. At first I was self-conscious that they would all blame me for having to sit through it, but I got over that pretty quickly. And incidental to the timing, the main offender got shit-canned. So it all worked out eventually.
It takes a lot of working up to it to call people out in person, at least for me. Don’t beat yourself up for taking your time. It’s especially hard when you don’t have back up, as I often don’t. And getting those looks, like you’re from Mars because you said, I don’t know, that “slut” isn’t an okay thing to call someone. I totally feel you on that. I’m glad you feel like it’s getting easier to withstand the onslaught of silencing from the world, though. : )
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:58 pm
Esteleth
You must be sooo proud!
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 1:59 pm
Thank goo’ness for Page 2.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 3rd, 2013 at 2:02 pm
Esteleth:
Woah! Name-checked by TF and now Twitter-hate?! You have arrived!
Not sure if I should offer congrats or condolences…
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 2:55 pm
Esteleth
Your worth is increasing by the tweet. ;)
+++
Also, should not have read that post or entered that thread. Dis.gust.ed.
Beatrice:
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:00 pm
rq,
This is a huge compliment, but I really don’t deserve to be in that sentence.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:12 pm
I just caught that it was a compliment to me, too. : ) Thanks, rq, but I bite my tongue more often than not, I think.
I had a thought a few days ago that was sort of an epiphany for me. If you don’t want to read a feminist screed, feel free to skip. At NYE, my male cousins-in-law were giving me a lot of grief for saying I preferred to be called a firefighter to being called a fireman. They wouldn’t listen when I tried to explain that if that was the only way I was subjected to erasure and sexism, then it wouldn’t be a big deal. Wouldnt listen when I tried to explain I don’t think someone is horrible for slipping up and correcting themselves or trying to change their language habits. It’s the adamantly defensive reaction to being told “Ahem, I’m not a man” that is problematic.
Anyhow, after a while it died down. Then, a female cousin made a quip about the town allowing a woman to be a fireman. She condescendingly tried to backpedal by saying how great she thinks it is that I volunteer, etc etc. While I was inevitably rehashing the event later, it occurred to me that her experience of sexism and mine are pretty different in no small part because of our occupations. She’s a fifth grade teacher. (Non-USians, that’s about 10-11 year olds). Her field is woman-dominated.* Law is very male dominated, and firefighting is even worse. So when she performs femininity in the way she has been socialized to do, she is rewarded in her career. Caring for children, showing empathy, nurturing, etc. All things that are Approved™. When I show empathy or concern or compassion, I get told that I’m not cut out for the practice of law, or that I should only do one type of it that’s not adversarial or I need to just go rest a minute and let the men finish up with the Jaws of Life.
All this combined with her willful oblivion to everyday iniquities, and she has no idea where I’m coming from.
Oh, and her husband actually resorted to “Well, I can’t please everyone, so why should I try?” crap at one point. I said “You know very well why, because it’s the right thing to do.”
*Not that this is an advantage to her in every way, obviously, those fields are less well paid.
Thus ends the jumbled, not-so-articulate stream of consciousness of the frustrated feminazi.
Improbable Joe:
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:13 pm
Esteleth you’re a celebrity now! Woo!
… completely off any other topic anywhere ever… my wife apparently has norovirus, is highly contagious, and I’m currently hiding from her and her disease. I was considering tying her down, and then I looked up “norovirus” and realized it had nothing to do with zombies.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:18 pm
chigau
how come?
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:19 pm
Joe
Oh no. Hope BossNurse feels better soon.
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:21 pm
Improbable Joe
One of the joys of being a nurse!
First in line for exposure to whatever new disease comes along.
Have some virtual chicken broth for BossNurse to sip slowly.
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:24 pm
Portia
Page 2 is good because once the comment count goes over about 400, it takes *forever* for my netbook to refresh a page.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:25 pm
Oooooh, gotcha.
Krasnaya Koshka:
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:40 pm
Improbable Joe @508: My best to your wife. I picked up norovirus on an Australian cruise over two months ago and still have flare-ups every two weeks. (Less and less, but still there.)
Make sure she drinks a lot and stays hydrated (I’m sure you know this). I could only eat saltines for a couple of days the first time. Then only mashed potatoes the second. I think each person knows what it is that sounds palatable for themselves when you have that illness. I kept stupidly trying cheese because I love cheese, but, yeah, don’t eat cheese when you’re stomach sick. Nothing good can come of it.
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:42 pm
HI there
Thanks everybody, your support is really appreciated.
My friends were over for dinner (we’d planned to make goose and it was delicious) and that was good.
What I would never have guessed is how hard this hits my sister. I would only have described her and mum close on a global scale. Dad is completely besides himself and gran understands enough to know that there’s something seriously wrong so she cries and constantly fears to be left alone.
theophontes
No problem. I enjoyed your pic, actually.
Although I’m worried about the “when in doubt, add more booze” that is sometimes employed around here, I haven’t turned Mormon.
Joe
Best wishes for BossNurse
*sends coke and pretzels*
Best cure ever.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:43 pm
Joe:
Best wishes to BossNurse.
It’s a good thing you like being in the kitchen because you may be fixing lots of soup for her.
opposablethumbs:
January 3rd, 2013 at 3:55 pm
Congratulations!!!!! to Yubal - here’s wishing continued good health to all involved.
.
Giliell, shit. I’m so sorry. I can only imagine it will be very hard – though it sounds like you’re taking the right approach with your kids (something along those lines seemed to be right with the Spawn, who were still very young when my parents died). I hope it doesn’t come to that for a long long time; I think you’re wise to be prepared, though.
.
Ow, Joe – best wishes to BossNurse; look after her (of course you will).
.
I can’t keep up. Reading you all avidly, nonetheless. Portia, virtual go-you! clenched tentacles to you, and a kick in the arse to your stupid male in-law cousins.
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:08 pm
Improbable Joe
I hope she recovers quick! Take good care of her; she may be taking care of you next!
Portia
What can I say? That sounds like a lot of bullshit to put up with. The fact that you do, well… I find that impressive. I work in a predominantly female field of forensic science (at least hereabouts), so I rarely have to put up with anything that might be considered condescending – we carry our own boxes, thank you very much (and I think most people would rather not touch our evidence boxes, because you never know what’s in them…). It sounds like you’re doing a fine job of it, and I tip my hat to you.
Beatrice
How’s the new job going this week? :) And yes, you deserve to be on that list. Definitely.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:15 pm
Thanks, opposablethumbs : )
and thanks rq. The support I get here in invaluable in fighting the self-doubt about my feelings and opinions. I spend most of the time immediately after an encounter with a lout feeling like a shrew who no one will be able to stand if I don’t shut up soon. : / I appreciate the moral support :)
I somehow missed before that you work in forensic science. Cool beans. Do you get as many people as I do making references to TV shows and asking if it’s really like that??? ;)
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:15 pm
I second the notion that Beatrice belongs on a list of people composed entirely of quantum awesome sauce.
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:16 pm
Turns out, Canadian astronaut Chris Hadfield has been tweeting some fantastic pictures from the space station. A nice break from other nastiness around.
(Yes, I’ve heard the joke about astronomical roaming charges on his cell phone…)
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:16 pm
Portia:
No lout are you.
Nor a shrew too.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:17 pm
Thanks Tony : ) *hugs*
Krasnaya Koshka:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:22 pm
Giliell, I’m so sorry you’re going through with your mom what you have been for quite some time. The whole situation now is terrible, for your whole family. I come from a long line of alcoholics and I know how that is. I’ve been quite the raging alcoholic myself. Now I’m just an alcoholic.
Having been born into a family of addicts, I was an addict fairly young. In my youth I was adamantly against cigarettes, booze or drugs but then it became a social thing to do. But I, being an addict, can’t stop when I’ve started. I simply cannot stop. I would love to be able to say “no” after a few and carry on but I have to keep going. I know it’s ruined a lot of things in my life but I can’t help it.
Two years ago I had a doctor house call and he spoke English (so nice for me–I still don’t know many Russian words for illnesses). He was there because of my inflamed throat but he did a thorough check and informed me that my liver was enlarged. I really freaked out and stopped drinking altogether. Well, except for when I “have to”. Russian culture kind of goads on the drinking and I have done my best to resist but I am an alcoholic so I give in sometimes. I also have huge anxiety problems and don’t like being social so a nip helps me relax, except I can’t stop at a nip. Clonazepam also really helps me but because I have a history of alcohol abuse I can’t get benzos. So I use alcohol.
What I want to say is: sometimes people really can’t help it. I didn’t want to hurt the people I’ve hurt by being a drunk but I couldn’t stop myself. There is something in my brain that needs more more more (it was the same with meth). I’m not saying this applies to your mom, and I’m sorry if I’m compounding a problem. I’m trying to suggest that she may not want at all to do this. I’m thinking it’s not malicious.
My father is a major alcoholic and he gloats in it and used to often call me when he was plowed (I haven’t seen him since I was 23–I’m now 47) so some people really do not care but I wanted to offer my experience. I don’t know if it helps.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:26 pm
Speaking as a former partner of an alcoholic…
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:27 pm
Fucking…
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:28 pm
rq:
Thanks for that link. Those images he tweeted were totes beautiful.
Krasnaya Koshka:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:30 pm
Azkyroth, okay, tell me how to turn off my brain (in regards to craving alcohol). That would really help me. And probably make you millions of dollars.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:34 pm
…how does that follow from what I posted?
Krasnaya Koshka:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:37 pm
Okay. I was doing my best at interpreting your cryptic message? Send me a decoder ring.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:41 pm
The “fucking” was in response to the formatting error. The “…and…?” was a deliberately restrained response to having memories dredged up of my ex’s apparent conviction that because, allegedly, she didn’t have malicious INTENT, that was supposed to somehow make everyone not upset about the CONSEQUENCES of her actions.
I really don’t understand how “it’s not MALICIOUS” is supposed to make anything better. Can you explain? :/
Improbable Joe:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:45 pm
Hey folks, I’ll pass on the well-wished… and chicken soup is already started in a pot. In an emergency soup situation, you can always get one of those rotisserie chickens from the grocery store and boil the hell out of it. :)
Giliell: my very best wishes to you and your family right now.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:47 pm
Mmmm grocery store rotisserie chicken….so tasty, so versatile.
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:54 pm
Krasnaya Koshka
I know she doesn’t want to this. Who’d want to die like that.
I understand how addiction works.
And I understand that it takes you to the absolute outer limit before change can happen and that limit is different for everybody. And that situations are differnt for everybody, that resources are different for everybody.
I talked one day with my therapist about that button to push, that straw that would break the camel’s back, that one thing that would finally be enough and it would flip the switch and it would allow her to seek help.
And that day I also talked about the fact that I can’t push the button or add the straw and that there’s a very real risk that her body will run out of health before that point is reached.
And I guess that’s what happened.
I don’t think she’s malicious, I don’t think she ever wanted to hurt us, but hell she did. And her addiction hurt us, and this hurts us and I’m shaking my fist at an empty sky because it’s damn unfair.
We watched that slow-motion trainwreck over the last two years. We knew that there was a break in that fucking train but we knew we couldn’t operate it. We knew there would be a point of no return, when it would be too late to pull the brake, but we didn’t know where that was and all our shouting from the sideline went unheeded.
No, she’s not malicious, she didn’t want this to happen, but we damn well didn’t choose to be in this.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 4:56 pm
This. Except I wasn’t watching, I was UNDER it, and my daughter’s still way too near the tracks.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:05 pm
Giliell:
Hugs and sympathies
joe:add my wellwishes for Bossnurse.
portia:I remeber when I was a lad, I got to visit Lyons with my father. There were people ther who just had roadside rotisserries loaded with chickens that they sold to passersby. It was lovely.
Cannabinaceae:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:08 pm
Rotisserie chicken: yes! I often wonder whether, if you’re going to eat chickens, it might be better to get rotisserie ones if you are concerned about your carbon footprint (yeah yeah, it might take you down to 500 per-capita earths from 501, or some other “it’s really pretty marginal” number; as I say, it’s a wondering).
|
Regarding the post above, I don’t see why you’d want to boil an already roasted chicken though! Well, I boil the carcass after the meat is gone to make stock, but I didn’t get the impression that’s what was being considered.
|
Still, if I brine and roast my own chicken (I shoot to do 2 at once, as the extra effort on top of doing just the one isn’t all that much), it comes out more moist, so if I’m serving guests, that’s what I’d do. Except that if I was serving guests I wouldn’t make chicken, I’d barbecue a small turkey, unless it was thanksgiving, and I’d barbecue or roast a large turkey (though not as large as this year, at least not on the barbecue), except if I was serving guests I’d probably do salmon or a lamb rack or prime rib. Unless chicken was specifically requested.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:10 pm
Stupi bloody phone.
I don’t. I can’t please everyone, so I try to pleae the people who aren’t assholes.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:14 pm
Ha! That’s a great answer. It’s such a damn weak cop out in the face of a simple request to listen when a marginalized person has told you you’ve said something hurtful.
Krasnaya Koshka:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:16 pm
Azkyroth,
I thought I already did explain. Alcoholics don’t CHOOSE to be alcoholics. We would very much like to not be alcoholics, actually. You do know there’s a horrible societal stigma on being an addict, right? You can over-eat yourself to 450 lbs and also land your health in trouble. It’s a compulsion, one that you can’t control. You absolutely know it’s fucking up your health and growing concern in ones who love you but you cannot stop. Your brain thinks “I need just a drop”. Constantly. It’s a nightmare, honestly.
My whole life I’ve been in the hospital exactly three times. They were for addiction-related issues. It’s my only disease.
The whole shaming of alcoholics makes it much nicer to keep on being drunk. When you’re sober you hear about how awful you were when you were drunk and when you’re drunk you don’t care. It’s a coping strategy. A horribly poor one, of course. One that no one uses unless they are alcoholics.
I know you have a really hard time now with a drunken ex but if maybe alcoholics weren’t so shamed and unable to get help (“let them go home from the hospital in their pissed on/vomited on clothes”) this would improve.
When I went to the Nut Hut in 2003 all I heard was shaming of drinking. No way of dealing with that burning brain fixation of “Just a little bit”. I left (after six weeks of Post-Hospital-Therapy) with my brain craving a drink. I am high anxiety usually and even the hospital gave me nothing except “imagine a small bubble in a boiling pot, imagine you are that bubble….” Seriously, wtf?
And I’m not saying you shouldn’t be upset about the CONSEQUENCES, I’m just saying it’s not always in someone’s control.
rq:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:18 pm
I’m going to go to bed dreaming of rotisserie chicken. Mmmm….
Giliell
Best of luck to you. None of this can be easy, and I hope… well, I’m not sure what – the best possible, I suppose. *hugs*
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:20 pm
Night rq
Krasnaya Koshka:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:23 pm
Giliell @ 534, and you’re absolutely right.
My point is there is a huge shaming of alcoholics (especially female alcoholics) that makes it so difficult for people like your mom, and people like my grandma, to get help. It’s not a shameful thing. It’s just a thing. It’s a disease, like any other.
You definitely don’t deserve this. Your children don’t deserve to potentially lose their Oma over this; plus, her and her husband (!). The whole thing is terribly sad and my heart goes out to you. I’m sorry if I minimized in any way. I certainly didn’t mean to.
Improbable Joe:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:32 pm
Cannabinaceae,
Yeah, I’m boiling the chicken for soup, my wife is sick. I pulled the bigger chunks of meat off, I’m cooking the carcass for a bit, and then I’m going to drain it, cool it, skim it, and soup it.
Krasnaya Koshka:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:35 pm
Addendum to my 543: People like me. All I was offered was AA. It’s so god-drenched I went twice and couldn’t hack it. “If you don’t believe in god, think of your higher power.” I don’t have a higher power. This was in San Francisco. Langley Porter. A very high-falutin’ Nut Hut.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:46 pm
Ugh. FUCK AA. Seriously. I suspect it’s done worse than no good for my ex, given the number of times I’ve had lines from the program literature brandished at me.
Cannabinaceae:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:52 pm
Improbable Joe,
That’s essentially what I do for my survival food when I’m doing chicken. I buy the chicken, tear the meat off until I have a meaty carcass, then make stock from that, and use half the stock and half the meat for a 5-quart “glop”. “Glop” being the end result of adding whatever veggies and starch (e.g. barley, pasta, tortilla chips, etc.) I have or feel inclined to get ahold of. I freeze the rest of the meat and stock, and get a whole ‘nother glop out of it.
I almost always include a pound of chopped spinach, and keep 3 or so different glops in rotation. Uusually some pork or beef chili; sometimes I go all out and do an actual “dish” like gumbo or split pea soup.
My basic aim is to use the meat (which I like) as a vehicle for the veggies (which I generally don’t like*). I vary the meat and the meat preparation method, or (as mentioned) make a named “dish” so as to avoid menu fatigue.
*I love roasted cauliflower and roasted asparagus. Delicata or carnival or sweet dumpling squash I also find awesome, whether simply split in half, wrapped in plastic, and nuked, or actually roasted. I have a nutmeg grinder. While the mentioned squashes absolutely don’t need augmentation, there’s nothing quite like an already delectable (when naked) squash, split and slathered with butter and brown sugar, roasted, with a fresh grind or two of nutmeg over the top just before serving.
mythbri:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:55 pm
Threadrupt.
Some of you probably remember that I’m a former Mo (LDS).
I haven’t gone to church willingly outside of family events (baby blessings, funerals, mission farewells and homecomings, etc.) since about 2004. I’m not surprised, exactly, about how easily the “church” part of my life fell away into subconsciousness, but there are times that I forget I was ever a member – and I was raised in that religion, from squalling newborn to confused college student.
I keep remembering things that I heard in church as a kid. Things that niggled at me, things that outright bothered me, but nothing for which I could put a reason. I wasn’t even active in any kind of atheist or skeptic “community” until I started reading Pharyngula, and fell in with you lot. I never even visited the ExMo sites (there are lots), because I had internalized the idea that apostates hated the church and spread lies about it and wanted to tear it down – and here I was, not realizing that I was also an apostate.
One of the things I remembered today came from a Testimony Meeting I attended long ago when I was still living at home with my parents. Testimony Meetings, for those of you who aren’t familiar with Mormonism, are meetings where people are supposed to feel inspired by the Holy Ghost to get up and share their “testimony” – basically, their belief in the church. These happen the first Sunday of every month. Also, it requires fasting, which I always hated. It was supposed to make me more in tune with the Holy Ghost, but it always only ended up making me hungry.
As you can imagine, these consisted of “Look what I did, I’m so holy” to “Look what happened to me and I’m still so holy” and “Look at this hobby horse I insist upon riding every time I get the opportunity to speak and oh aren’t I holy”.
Occasionally, the flavor would switch from “I’m so holy” to “I’m so wretched, God is great and I am nothing”. Those weren’t any better.
Today, though, I remembered one man getting up to speak. I was pretty young, and I didn’t understand at the time what he was really saying. But it was basically a rant about how there are women “out there” who consciously and deliberately seduce LDS men, for the sole purpose of leading them away from the church and/or getting them excommunicated. This man said that it hadn’t happened to him (suuuuuuuuure), but he knew men who had been led astray by whores of Babylon. Because of this, he would never allow himself to be alone with any woman that was not his wife. He proved this by relating a story – he was driving home from work. It was pouring rain outside, and he noticed a neighbor of his walking without an umbrella. She was also on her way home from work.
And he didn’t give her a ride. Because she was a woman, and because he wouldn’t allow himself to be alone with any woman that was not his wife. So he let her walk the miles home in the rain.
What an asshole.
Cannabinaceae:
January 3rd, 2013 at 5:59 pm
Azkyroth,
Not to belittle your own family’s experience with AA, but it has really helped my brother (who, starting in high school, followed the whole life of crime thing with meth, booze, property crimes, jail, etc.) whose mileage evidently varies. Still, I never recommend AA to anybody, and I’m fine with people disrespecting them.
Krasnaya Koshka:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:00 pm
AA only increased my anxiety and hostility. Actually, the first time I ran into it was in Langley Porter in a group therapy session and I said, “I don’t believe in this god thing.” I was ushered out and got to read peacefully alone in my four person room. I read Patricia Highsmith’s “The Glass Cell” instead. (It was in my room.)
The next time I had to go to a church (with all gay people, like me) but I had to stand up and talk about myself. This was before I was holding 1000 people conferences for work so I freaked out. It was only maybe 100 people. Again, I said I don’t believe in god and I had the microphone yanked away from me.
Azkyroth, it’s all platitudes. And platitudes are hugely annoying.
Improbable Joe:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:07 pm
Cannabinaceae,
If not for my wife, I’d probably eat that way too. She’s a bit more finicky about food, and doesn’t always like everything touching let alone mixed together. As it is, since I cook too much and I’m usually the one who eats the leftovers, things get transformed 2-3 times at least. Potato soup might get leftover sausage, and then clams, and then green chiles. The soup I’m making tonight will probably get a handful of diced zucchini when I reheat it tomorrow. I’ve got a mess of frozen spicy meatballs in marinara that will probably become some sort of chili down the line.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:13 pm
I’m not judging here… can someone try to explain to me the food not touching thing? It’s so very foreign to me I do not get it. I had an ex-gf who didn’t like food touching but she could never explain what it was.
Krasnaya Koshka:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:18 pm
Mythbri, when I was a young child I was sent to the Mormon church quite near our house, alone. My paternal grandparents were Mormon and they wanted me to be Mormon. My mom was not happy about it so she didn’t go with me. (My father was always at work and I never saw him until I was about 11–besides holidays, of course.) I bailed out quite early.
When I was a teen, I was asked to be a special counselor at Camp LoMia. “Special” meaning I was not fully Mormon but I could perhaps be persuaded. The LDS church was literally across the street from my high school and all my friends were Mormon.
I recall the Testimony Meeting at the camp. I was quite disappointed that my lesbian Mormon friends said nothing about their gfs and so I got up to leave. (I had exactly two Mormon lesbian friends and we would go to lesbian bars every weekend and I knew their gfs.) They went on (crying, by the way–I think you’re supposed to cry in Testimony) about how they’d sinned and how maybe GAWD could help them. This is why I got up to leave. But I was ushered back into my seat.
They’re now my friends on FB but they’re still quite weird about GAWD. (And they sought me out.)
Congratulations, to you, Mythbri, for getting out of that. I know it’s not easy.
Cannabinaceae:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:29 pm
I think the food-not-touching thing may be a manifestation of the “contagion-avoidance” instinct gone awry or amped up too much. Perhaps potentiated by former experience of something usually enjoyed, but “ruined” by contact with something not enjoyed. With my niece (8 yo), simply mentioning the word “onion” before dinner where some dish might (but doesn’t) contain hidden onions, is enough to put her off that dish.
I myself have essentially the opposite instinct. When eating meals with separable dishes and side orders, I generally cycle through taking bites of everything separately, and combining two things, three things, in the same bite. Sometimes a particular combination really gets me and I find myself going into automatic face stuffing mode for that combination. Otherwise,I generally try to pace things so that all the components disappear from the plate at about the same rate.
Except the steak. I always save a few bites for a satisfying meat cleanse.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:46 pm
Holy shit. I. Must. Be. Protected. To. The. Point. I. Am. Completely. Invisible.
Stupid fuckwitted coward.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:48 pm
Caine:
I said it there and I’ll repeat it here. You are wonderful.
cicely (The Less Sore of Two Measles):
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:49 pm
Anyone want a slightly-used cold? ‘Cause I’m so, so tired of this one.
Last night sucked on steroids.
:( :( :( :( :( :(
-
*waving* at Happiestsadist. Welcome back.
-
morgan, are we on *hugging* terms? If so, have one.
-
I read that Lucas wanted a “used” look for Star Wars; and presumably all the grubby tech we see there is the handed-down, much-patched tech that was shiny-and-bright in the prequels.
-
yubal, welcome to your new hatchling!
-
Irregular. And I had massive trouble with those Centauri crests.
On the other hand, Vir finger-wiggling and smiling at Morden’s en-piked head was awesome.
-
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:50 pm
Beatrice:
The fuck you don’t – and don’t you dare argue with me.
michaeld:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:53 pm
OOO I liked b5 ^.^ Wasn’t perfect though and I could have done without the earth gov assassination conspiracy stuff.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:53 pm
Ogvorbis:
Thank you. You have no idea how much that means to me. I just read your post there and I’ll give that right back to you – you are wonderful. You are patient and yet brook no bullshit and you speak out about yourself and what happened to you. I love you, Og. (Yep, warts and all.)
Krasnaya Koshka:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:53 pm
Giliell
Okay, so think how the person feels who is causing you so much pain. I mean, for me, especially when I was actually having relationships when I was a meth addict it was not a simple choice of “your loved ones” or “your addiction”. It was MY addiction is uncontrollable. There is nothing anyone outside can do for me. I am not choosing one or the other. I have no choice. THAT is what addiction is. There’s no reasoning. Yes, I could see how I was hurting people but I could not STOP myself.
There are so many conversations here about not using able-ist and sexist and homophobic and racist language, but being an addict is an affliction. It is a disease.
Improbable Joe:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:58 pm
Caine,
I suggest you buy an ankle brace… one of these days you’re going to put your foot deep in some moron’s ass, and it is going to get stuck, and without the brace you’re going to break your ankle for sure. :)
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 6:59 pm
Do you really think I haven’t?
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:01 pm
QFT…Reminds me about time for a film festival….
Krasnaya Koshka:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:02 pm
Azkyroth, no, I don’t. I definitely think you have.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:09 pm
I don’t have a big problem with food touching, I can eat whatever, but I would slightly prefer for each dish to stay separate until I eat it.
But I do this too if the combination is good, and I don’t think this is incompatible with an aversion to food touching on the plate. The “important” thing is that it all stays separate until it is deliberately combined for a bite.
This is plausible. It may instead be a more general need-for-order, cognitively satisfying for its own sake like need-for-closure is.
OTOH, some dishes really are better (to most palates) when they’re kept separate, because the distinct textures are lost (and sometimes get gross) when they mix for too long. Learning this several times may cause a person to develop general heuristic that it is just preferable to keep all foods separate — no contagion-avoidance or need-for-order necessary.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:15 pm
I find switching focus and switching between tasks to generally be cognitively taxing, so this may be a contributing factor. I tend to separate things out and eat one category of thing at a time, without a conscious effort otherwise.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:15 pm
IJoe:
Hah! I’ll take your suggestion on board. :D
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:16 pm
…maybe closer to “emotionally taxing” than cognitively. It’s like there’s a flywheel in my brain that has to be spun up to function at full capacity, and it’s very disconcerting to have to stop it suddenly, or to be in a sort of elevated “switching gears” state for extended periods.
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:18 pm
I’ve just done a quick re-read of the Matt thread (to make sure I didn’t miss anything the first time) and I must say that I don’t ‘feel sorry’ for anyone except jacksul.
Krasnaya Koshka:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:19 pm
It fucking sucks to be an addict and to have hurt so many people. I lost two girlfriends to my meth addiction and one to my alcoholism. This is why I generally try to stay alone. (BTW, cold turkey I quit meth after eight years of daily use on March 31st, 2000. This is not a great achievement because I never ever bought meth for myself. I was always granted it by my friends so we could play video games until the wee hours. I paid for it but I never went and got it. I’m an asshole. I simply moved and had no more supply.)
I am now going to curl up next to my gf and re-think my life.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:22 pm
Ok this all makes sense. I guess it must be some leftover thing for me with the ex (long ago ex). She would freak the fuck out when some foods touched. Almost some sort of visceral reaction to it.
She stocked a lot of those plastic / paper plates with separate chambers and did not like eating out anywhere with “flat” plates.
We didn’t date long, for many reasons. I hope she’s doing well.
athyco:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:25 pm
Chigau (570)
How is it that, in my head, the words “Bless his heart” sounded clearly at the end of your comment?
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:36 pm
athyco #573
Yes. I’m glad you heard it.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:44 pm
Portia:
I’m so glad you spoke up! My sister-in-law (not the one who can’t keep secrets) and I talk so often about the crap she goes through at the fire house and on scenes. And she hates being called a fireman.
One of her pet peeves is that she has to walk this line between being firm and yet not coming off as a nag or a feminazi. If she speaks up and demands respect, she gets punished in subtle and not-so-subtle ways (like, hey, a locker full of shaving cream when she goes to get her gear for a call). But if she doesn’t, they keep doing the shit and she doesn’t get any respect anyway.
She and my brother went through training together twelve years ago and joined the fire company at the same time. She actually has more certifications and CE credits than he does, and because of the nature of her job, she’s able to attend more calls. But he got made a lieutenant, and then captain, and now assistant three. She’s never even been nominated for even the lowest office or allowed to be incident command, though firefighters with less time in the company, less certs, and fewer scene hours have.
Oh, but certainly there’s no sexism; she’s just over-reacting…
—
Improbable Joe:
Oh no! Hope she recovers quickly. *offers chicken broth, ginger ale, and saltines for BossNurse. Disinfectant wipes and surgical mask for you*
—
Giliell:
My father and I were not close even on the global scale, but his impending death hit me very hard. I think because I realized there was no hope he would ever change.
Keeping you and your family in my thoughts.
—
Rev. BDC:
My oldest can’t tolerate separately-cooked foods touching, because he says it changes the flavor of both for the worse. If the various items are cooked together, that’s okay because it’s become one dish.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 7:59 pm
Krasnaya:
You’ve shared much with us. You’ve opened up the book of your life and granted us a glimpse. Thank you.
Please know, you are not an asshole. I have seen nothing from you that bears any resemblance to True Assholery (see any feminism related thread here for examples).
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:01 pm
Socjo-gen:
I haven’t heard of ginger ale being offered up when sick. Hmmm.
michaeld:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:03 pm
I’ve often heard of ginger ale (especially flat) for stomach troubles, nausea in particular.
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:05 pm
Flat ginger ale is better.
and not icy-cold
carlie:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:09 pm
We used to use 7-up when sick. When nauseated, we’d use coke syrup. I don’t even know if pharmacies still sell that.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:10 pm
I think ginger-ale and crystallized ginger are supposed to help stomach issues.
Anecdotally I’ll vouch for ginger ale.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:13 pm
Tony:
Ginger ale is the one of the few things I can keep down when I have any kind of stomach problem. It has to be room temperature, though.
Lemon and ginger tea (cooled to room temp) works as well, but I don’t like the taste as much.
morgan:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:17 pm
Good evening friends. About ginger for tummy troubles. I have taken capsules of ginger powder to ward off seasickness. Is this woo? I don’t know. It worked for me and now I have to go do some research.
athyco:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:17 pm
Socio-gen, something something, I was reading up on the thread and so wanted to chime in with/for Portia, but I thought it was way too late. You’re now my role model for “nuh uh, not late in the Lounge!”
Portia,
Seems that I’ve had an intersection of your realization! I completed EMT training in 1980 and pulled volunteer rotation (6 pm to 6 am) on Wednesdays and Saturdays at the fire station. I’d finished my training in mid-May so that through the entire summer, I was doing everything the guys did. But I was an non-tenured middle school teacher. Once the next school year began, my principal asked why I was always a half hour early at school on Thursday mornings. I told him proudly. He demanded that I quit. It was unseemly, you know. I told him that I could drop Saturdays and just stay Wednesday nights in the station when the married couple were in the other bunkroom. I could do days when I wasn’t in school. No. It was quit volunteering as an EMT or be fired, and he had the contacts to check behind me if I didn’t.
It so does my heart good to know you’re a firefighter.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:19 pm
It’s funny, growing up, I didn’t like ginger ale. My parents would occassionally buy Canada Dry and I wouldn’t touch the stuff. Fast forward 20 or so years and I reached in the refrigerator one day and poured a glass of it (E loves the stuff) and now I quite enjoy it. In fact, I like vodka, ginger ale with a splash of cranberry.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:20 pm
You mean you haven’t gotten sick because you take ginger?
it may not be woo but it sure reeks of it.
Improbable Joe:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:20 pm
This is the sort of time where I appreciate the command decision my wife and I made long ago, to always live in decent-sized houses rather than small apartments even though it is just the two of us. There are two bathrooms, two beds, and plenty of places for me to hide from her and her zombie poop virus.
Lots of Gatorade and green tea for her, lots of hiding in my office for me… good times, right?
mythbri:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:26 pm
@Krasnaya Koshka
Yup, crying during Testimony is an unspoken almost requirement, it seems. Are your friends still members, or have they given it up?
The worst part about leaving is the whole family angle, for sure. I’m straight, so I know my experience was nothing like your friends’ when/if they decided to leave, but damn. My family isn’t thrilled about my decision.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:27 pm
my bad, SEAsickness.
I have no idea.
*must read more carefully
grumble
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:30 pm
@morgan:
I love the words “I don’t know.”
Especially when followed by “I need to read up on that.”
Please share your findings :)
michaeld:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:41 pm
This NIH link gives some info on their analysis of the data. Might be a good starting place for those who want to look deeper into the issue. For what it’s with its cautiously positive about some uses of ginger. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/961.htmlhttp://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/961.html
morgan:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:45 pm
Will do, Tony. What works and what does not in the realm of “herbs and spices” is a complex arena. Several lifetimes ago I managed a health food store (1970′s) and it broke my heart to see the number of mostly sad folks who came in looking for miracles. I’ll let you know what I find out.
When was the last time I told all you good people that I love you? :-)
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Kuiper-Belt:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:49 pm
Hello! I have just had lovely noms of a prawn (shrimp) salad with chilli-lime mayo.
I am a bit threadrupt but have quickly skimmed.
Big hugs to Giliell.
Yay for all the awesome people in the Dillahunty thread. I stopped by yesterday but haven’t returned to see what happened.
As to ginger, it’s commonly recommended for nausea and IIRC there is some evidence favouring it over placebo, but it’s not firmly established. Mythbusters did a thing on ways to prevent motion sickness, and ginger worked – but on an unblinded N of 1, so that’s hardly conclusive.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 3rd, 2013 at 8:52 pm
athyco:
Glad I can be a role model for something! :) I’m almost always late to the conversation, but I can’t resist chiming in.
This is just awful!
—
Joe:
Excellent planning!
Ouch, I just snorted tea out of my nose! I am so stealing that for the next time I have a gastrointestinal nightmare.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:01 pm
Speaking of zombies:
Romero’s slow moving zombies
or
Danny Boyle’s running zombies
Personally, I prefer Romero, but that is due more to my exposure to those movies. I think Boyle zombies are more frightening.
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:06 pm
Have you seen this?
http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2013/01/03/gay-scientists-isolate-gene-for-christianity
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:12 pm
Socio-gen
Yes. Being assertive versus being a doormat. It’s a constant problem, just in life, but it’s even harder in a machismo-fueled environment like a fire house.
Locker full of shaving cream?! I know people play pranks, but that seems dangerous to me. We play pranks, but no one fucks with anyone’s gear. Your gear is your life! And fast response is other people’s lives…I can’t imagine screwing with someone at that level. Unbelievable. So sorry she has to deal with that bullshit.
Of course not! Because men are objective, and women are whiners! That’s really awfully unfair for her. I’m not nearly as accomplished as she is in the field; it’s really admirable that she has done so much in the face of such pervasive sexism. Being called a fireman is really among the most trivial of the sexist offenses a woman can face in a fire station, but it’s pretty annoying.
morgan
Anecdotally, I can attest that ground ginger into hot water is wonderful for a sore throat. It has been said many times that ginger is good for tummy problems. Good luck. I’m interested in your findings as well.
athyco
It’s never too late in the Lounge! (If there’s really a chance someone won’t remember what you’re responding to, you can always reference their earlier comment by number). : )
I appreciate your sharing your experiences, that is really shitty! I can’t believe you were forced to quit doing something you really enjoyed doing and took pride in for such a stupid reason. Especially something that takes so much work to accomplish.
That means a lot to me, thank you.
There have been times where I was denied training opportunities because the rumor mill prevented a male officer from going along with me. Because, ya know, our bits go together so clearly a day-long class in a town 45 minutes away would result in our bits going together. The worst part is that that guy is one of the few who actually looks out for me in a nice-uncle kind of way. But he sort of avoids me now because the aforementioned sexual harasser spread rumors about us sleeping together. That’s also a peril of small town living though.
Joe
Extra space is awesome for sure. I hate most of the cartoons the kids watch on the weekends at SO’s and there’s not a lot of room to get away from it. Glad you are walled off though. Zombie poop virus sounds like No Fun™.
Krasnaya Koshka
Hugs for you if you want them. I’m sorry you’ve had so many struggles. I’ve witnessed a lot of alcoholism. It’s always sad.
Giliell
Extra periodic hugs for you as you want them.
Tony
I love Ginger Ale. It is one of my favorite things. When I was sick as a kid, my mom went with 7-up (which was a huge treat because she was very into healthy eating) and I don’t know if it really helped or if it was just a yummy treat to make us feel better. I drink ginger ale when I’m sick now but I still don’t know if it’s the former or the latter or both. : ) And I don’t care. It’s Magic Sky Juice. I always get it on airplanes.
Improbable Joe:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:35 pm
Tony:
Romero zombies FTW.
In hindsight, from the safety of our couches and chairs and barstools in 2013, we can look back on the Romero zombies and say “Oh, that’s not scary, how did the world get taken over by slow-moving zombies? That’s STUPID!” But think back to the original movies, and remember that Romero basically invented the entire zombie genre from whole cloth. Nobody knew what these things were, but they look like your neighbor and Bob from work, and your mom and your little sister. And they are going to get you, Barbara… and worse, they are going to make you one of them. No rest for you once they kill you either… oh no, you’re going to get up and shamble around too, maybe forever!
Also, I like ginger ale… with and without a splash of gin.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:37 pm
They already take over the roads here for as much as 6 hours a day. O.o
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:38 pm
AA is a Bad Thing.
Addiction
May well be a disease. I’m not sure. But I’m tired of hearing addiction used as an excuse for bad behavior and stupid choices. I heard it all the time from my abuser — “I was drunk and didn’t know what I was doing,” “I blacked out*,” and the like, after EVERY… incident. And if he wasn’t blowing that smoke up my ass, it was always MY fault.
*I got that particular excuse several times, even when he was dead sober.
What you describe sounds less like addiction and more like self-medicating for an undiagnosed or untreated mental illness. You mentioned having issues with anxiety upthread; I suggest seeing a psychiatrist and a talk therapist, get your head sorted out, get yourself properly dx-ed and medicated (if needed), and the urges should go away. From personal experience, redirecting the compulsion (read: doing something else and keeping yourself busy until the urges pass) can help a lot. Also, um… there are good non-barbiturate anti-anxiety meds available. A good therapist and psychiatrist will work with you to find medications (or other solutions) that won’t fuck you up further. Best of luck to you.
Giliell
Shit. I wish I could give you a million and one *headbonks*.
ginger is awesome for upset tummies! Which reminds me, I need to get more ginger tea. *adds to list*
“threadrupt” — I keep seeing this word. What does it mean?
And as for the Dillahunty thread… I couldn’t even. I tried to read it, got somewhere near comment #90-something, and had to quit. I was starting to feel ragey and stabby.
Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death):
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:43 pm
Portia:
Your magic sky juice link gives me a 404 error message. And I was all ready to learn what magic sky juice is…
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:44 pm
WMDKitty:
Aaaw, you missed my cowardly protector being called an assclam in smegmarmalade sauce. *pretend sad face*
Threadrupt is akin to bankrupt – someone who hasn’t kept up with the thread, so doesn’t have a clue as to what’s going on with everyone.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:45 pm
Retry at Magic Sky Juice
http://theoatmeal.com/blog/beverage_options
michaeld:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:46 pm
WMDkitty
threadrupt…. disrupting the current train of discussion in the thread with a new topic/discussion?
If you think the comments are bad on the Dillahunty thread I had a look at the comments at Michael Nugents new post on the thunderf00t video that was hard to try to read (article very good comments full of ick). Alas I don’t think thunder’s supporters will change over this. I did see sallystrange over there doing a good job though.
http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/01/03/thunderf00t%E2%80%99s-inflammatory-video-of-misleading-personal-attacks-on-atheist-feminists-is-not-helpful/
Nerd of readhead Just cause I’ve been curious is that one of the hippo’s from fantasia as your pic?
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:48 pm
I’m still mystified as to how the people who are in charge of ensuring that nothing else that tastes better than “violently, ragingly mediocre” gets served on airplanes keep missing ginger ale. O.o
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:49 pm
Random question (that really isn’t one, I guess): Do you think that if I join the podcast tomorrow and say that my remarks as so memorably quoted by TF00t were badly phrased and reiterate my position more clearly, that the haters would suddenly grow consciences and stop attacking women, Paul Elam would apologize for everything, and I’d get a pony?
Yeah, I don’t think so either.
Second question: despite that, do you think I should anyway?
Pteryxx:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:49 pm
nth’ing anecdata of ginger for tummy troubles and sore throat and sniffles and generally making me happy. Ginger root in stir fry, ginger ale, ginger root boiled with lemon for tea. Also pickled ginger on top of sushi. ♥
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:50 pm
Aaand I went back to finish reading the Dillahunty thread.
Why do I do this to myself?
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:52 pm
??
I cannot see any comments whatsoever on Nugent’s post.
And I tried with two different browsers.
morgan:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:53 pm
Dear sweet massively well intentioned WMD Kitty. You are blessed with the opportunity to grow and learn.
To quote you:
“What you describe sounds less like addiction and more like self-medicating for an undiagnosed or untreated mental illness. You mentioned having issues with anxiety upthread; I suggest seeing a psychiatrist and a talk therapist, get your head sorted out, get yourself properly dx-ed and medicated (if needed), and the urges should go away. From personal experience, redirecting the compulsion (read: doing something else and keeping yourself busy until the urges pass) can help a lot. Also, um… there are good non-barbiturate anti-anxiety meds available. A good therapist and psychiatrist will work with you to find medications (or other solutions) that won’t fuck you up further. Best of luck to you.”
Your advice is sweetly insulting. I know, it is not meant to be so. But just stop fucking giving advice. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US WHO HAVE DEALT WITH ALL OF THIS HAVE ALREADY PURSUED YOUR SUGGESTIONS. AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN OVER SEVERAL DECADES.
Just don’t try to give advice, please.
And again, once again, I’m going to bed and I hope things won’t feel so raw tomorrow.
michaeld:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:54 pm
Esteleth
Right, theres some stupid bug over there I think he mentioned it, its only showing comments after you comment. Sorry I probably should have mentioned it >.< my bad.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:54 pm
WMDKitty:
Next, take a stiff drink with you.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:56 pm
Aargh!
That should have read:
“Next time, take a stiff drink with you.”
I do not own a smartphone.
Tis a dumbphone.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 3rd, 2013 at 9:57 pm
All the more reason for me to comment then, I guess.
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:00 pm
I have now discovered the “brilliance” of Caveman73, Owlglass, and Jacksul.
My face is like O___O;
Fuck me, I’m now compelled to read through. I’m going to hate myself for this… not that there’s anything new with that.
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:04 pm
Esteleth #606
Do the podcast wearing a cheap, self-made Thunderfoot mask.
i.e. find an online image, print it on 8 1/2 by 11, punch eye-holes and a mouth-hole, masking tape it to your head.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:05 pm
morgan:
In the future, responses ofvthat nature are best suited to the Thunderdome. I take no issue with the content, I just wish to kerp the Lounge as the relaxed social gathering. Please and thanks.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:06 pm
My dog truly believes that he should sleep as close to me as possible
Between me and mrs. BDC
With his heads on my chest
Pushing me and my naked ass off the side into the cold
Wouldn’t be so bad if he didn’t weight almost as much as mrs BDC short about 15 lbs.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:07 pm
And I am henceforth know as the Queer King of Tpyos!
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:07 pm
Oh, Christ on a stick!
*BIGHUGS* for Caine!
*pawbumps* for all the awesome folks who were like, “RAWR, NO” to the not-so-awesome dipshits on that thread!
Iz workout time for me, back later.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:08 pm
Anyone reading on an iPad have issues with FTB randomly showing the mobile site and being hard to get it to go back to the normal site and stick?
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:09 pm
chigau:
What did Esteleth do that you would think up such punishment? /s
A Thunderf00t mask. I shudder in my booties and snuggy.
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:10 pm
And if WMDKitty chooses to respond to morgan, do it in the Thunderdome.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:10 pm
WMDKitty:
No, no. Don’t focus on the stupid and the malevolence – focus on all the awesome that is The Horde™.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:15 pm
Morgan, if you’re going to hang in the lounge, best get used to one thing immediately: advice giving is habitual in the lounge. You’ll get it by the fucktonne, whether you wished for it or not. Also, while any given advice or suggestions may not be applicable to your situation, it could well be applicable to someone else, whether that person is active or lurking.
In the future, if you wish to yell anymore at someone, whether that’s WMDKitty or me, or anyone else, do your yelling in The Angry Dome, and provide a link here.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:15 pm
chigau:
That was an excellent video! I snickered the whole way through.
—
Portia:
Yes, and, of course, in a volunteer setting where these are the people who control the votes and decide who runs on what rigs? Even harder.
They did move her gear to the next locker over, but still — seconds count and she had to waste valuable time finding it while they yukked it up and told her she ought to stay behind to clean up the mess.
Ugh. This is common in our county as well. My SIL finally got to do some training down at the state fire academy last year because my brother could attend at the same time. The fire company wouldn’t pay for her to go alone because — OMG — she’d be surrounded by men who weren’t her husband.
I think the worst for her is the fact that when she expresses a desire to stand for an officer’s position, she always gets the “But what if you have a kid?” bullshit, that no one asked my brother before nominating him. As she said, no one looked at the chief and his two heart attacks and asked “Gee, what if your heart stops working on another scene?”
—
Caine:
Now, I have to go read that thread.
—
Esteleth:
I don’t know that it would do any good (with the haters), but if you want to, I say go for it.
—
Rev. BDC:
I’m having the same problem with my laptop, usually when going from the Lounge to the main page. Once I click on a headline, or if I go from another thread to the main page, it’s fine.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:17 pm
WMDKitty:
Aaw, thanks. Piece o’ work, isn’t he?
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:17 pm
Tony
If Esteleth ‘disguises’ herself as Tfoot using a paper mask, do you think his followers could tell the difference?
She could confuzzel them.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:18 pm
Rev: not just iPad. I have the same problem on my Android phone. Also finding the return to top doesn’t always work.
When is blogroll and stuff going back on right side????!!
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:19 pm
Yeah, but I really lack the ability to speak with a British accent. I can do a hilariously bad over-the-top Cockney, but that’s about it.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:21 pm
Ok good, not just me. I can share in the annoyance.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:28 pm
I think the point here is that morgan felt that WMDKitty was condesplaining. With some justification, frankly.
This is exactly the sort of abuse of lounge rules I dread. If natural reactions to condesplaining are going to be chastised and condesplaining itself isn’t, and so forth, it’ll slowly kill everything that makes the Lounge worthwhile.
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:28 pm
morgan
You’re being mean for no reason. Believe it or not, I have experience in this area. It has been MY experience that most “addictions” are nothing more than self-medication, and that when the underlying issues are treated, the “addiction” goes away.
It is NOT “naive” to suggest actually doing something instead of sitting back, shrugging, and going “can’t do anything about it, addicts have no choice”. I am pointing out that, YES, YOU HAVE A CHOICE. You can CHOOSE to keep drinking and drugging, OR you can CHOOSE to get proper medical care, including psychiatric support, and get to the root of the problem, thereby allowing you to treat the addiction. I want people to get the help they need. In what world is it a Bad Thing to suggest someone get healthy?
The model of “addict as victim” only keeps people from actually dealing with their issues. It allows you to say, “I am not responsible for myself or my actions because alcohol.” It’s a fucking cop-out. It keeps addicts in their “disease”, and ensures a steady stream of sheep to the 12-Step Cult, all sanctioned by the injustice system.
If you want to cling to your “disease” and your “victim” status, I won’t stop you. Just don’t go getting upset when people point out the blindingly obvious.
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:33 pm
Aaand I should have refreshed before posting.
Bad Kitty. I’ll be in the corner.
cicely (The Less Sore of Two Measles):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:40 pm
*hugs&chocolate* for Giliell. I’m sorry.
Unwelcome not-surprises are still unwelcome.
-
Son is now divorced. I am sad, but resigned.
-
Caine, if you don’t mind my asking, what are we supposed to be protecting you from? You strike me as being more than capable to your own defense! Your immense pile of eviscerated troll corpses speaks for itself!
Well, that and the way you’ve used their polished skulls as paving elements….
-
SomethingsomethingNiceGuy™…maybe I need a linky….
-
And Pteryxx is back!
:)
-
Shit. I’m gonna have to find this Dilla-thingy thread, am’t I?
-
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:47 pm
Azkyroth:
Yes, I got that. That does not mean Morgan is free to tell WMDkitty to stop giving out advice. She can certainly tell WMDkitty that she doesn’t want any advice directed at her and she’s free to tell her she doesn’t find it useful in the least.
It’s not abuse of the rules or anything else. I note, as usual, you did not bother to scold Tony or Chigau for also telling Morgan to take such things to Thunderdome. I’m pretty sick and fucking tired of you taking every single fucking opportunity to be a complete asshole to me. So, how about you do me a favour and either distribute your criticisms in a fair manner or just do the easiest thing and pretend I’m not here.
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Kuiper-Belt:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:50 pm
I’m kind of glad I went back to the Dillahunty thread, because Horde=Amazing. And now I understand why Caine is a delicate little flower… of EVILLLL. Excellent work.
And now, addiction is hard. It’s probably most helpful to stick to “in my experience” stories and try not to overgeneralise. Not all addicts are the same. Krasnaya Koshka, Gilliel’s mother, Azkyroth’s ex, Natalie Reed, and my uncle are all totally different people.
Not every addict is lucky enough to have the resources to do something about it, whether those resources are financial, social or personal. Some genuinely struggle with it; others succumb. Some addicts are highly destructive of others, and the best you can do is get away to a safe distance from them.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:53 pm
Azkyroth:
I think the need for a relaxing, relatively stress free, safe social area is a great thing. As we have seen in the past, minor disagreements or significant ones can disrupt the atmosphere of this space. I don’t think simply sliding over to the ‘Dome is asking for too much given the number of people posting here who enjoy a strife free zone.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:54 pm
Cicely:
From what I’ve been able to gather, I’m to be protected from having my feelings hurt, because I might have been raped. Shhhhhhhhhh, we can’t talk about it, we can’t!!1!OMGWTFBBQ
It’s this thread: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/02/matt-dillahunty-being-all-reasonable-and-stuff/ – do a Ctrl + f for jacksul and go from there. There’s also a critter going by owlglass – those posts are best quickly skimmed to avoid brain cells jumping ship in droves.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 10:59 pm
Alethea:
That response has left me completely gobsmacked. I still don’t know what he thinks will happen if rape and assault and harassment is discussed. Does he think I’m going to sob myself to sleep? Kill myself? I don’t know. I do know I’m not terribly impressed by being thought of like his religious granny. Geez.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 3rd, 2013 at 11:00 pm
Trying to catch back up, not doing very well. In no particular order:
firefighters
Damn, those stories are depressing. In addition to the obvious, which is bad enough, apparently these dipshits are doing this stuff (shaving cream in the locker etc. )when they’re supposed to be out fighting goddamn fires. Great sense of priorities there.
AA
Is useless at best; no study has ever shown them to have a better success rate than no treatment at all, and there’s collateral damage to boot in the form of jesus bullshit and similar. That is to say that, as far as can be determined, anyone who was ‘helped’ by AA would have probably done about as well if they hadn’t gone at all.
I still haven’t read the Dillahunty thread, or the next five after that. I seem to be falling farther and farther behind these days. Granted, I’ve been doing a lot more work and a lot less websurfing recently, and there’s been stuff occupying my time at home which precludes internetting, but I’m trying. I’ve got an assistant at work again, though, so that ‘l free up some time.
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Kuiper-Belt:
January 3rd, 2013 at 11:02 pm
It was quite bizarre. I’m imagining it a bit like “Don’t mention the war!” – a funnier person than me could make a good sketch of it. Also, if you are any kind of Granny, it’s a Weatherwax.
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Kuiper-Belt:
January 3rd, 2013 at 11:03 pm
Also FWIW I kept reading jacksul as jackal or jacksie.
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 11:09 pm
Caine
I actually suggested that WMDKitty respond to morgan in the Thunderdome.
I am unsure of what Azkyroth is concerned about but it’s late and I’m tired.
but
if you have a moment:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/03/i-think-youtube-culture-really-has-gone-pathological/comment-page-1/#comment-527625
I’ve sent an alert but another couldn’t hurt.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 11:13 pm
Alethea:
Ayup. I imagine Mr. Nice Guy didn’t know what hit him. :D
Chigau, I caught his latest act, sending an alert now.
theophontes (坏蛋):
January 3rd, 2013 at 11:27 pm
@ Giliell
‘:D
@ Tony
That picture was in the newspaper today. They apparently cannot take things further because the fins are “on private property”. (Yeah, WTF!)
There is a dried seafood street in my neighbourhood. One of the shops is specialised in sharks’ fins. But one cannot see inside and needs to be buzzed in. Warnings about taking pictures too. In the old days, they used to dry them on the streets. At the very least the merchants are being back-footed by all the flack they are getting.
cicely (The Less Sore of Two Measles):
January 3rd, 2013 at 11:28 pm
Joe, please convey my sympathies to BossNurse. Been there, done that, barfed all over the tee shirt.
-
I don’t like my foods touching. I have no rational explanation for it. I also tend to eat all of one thing before going on to the next. No rational explanation for that, either.
-
Caine—that Ctrl+f thing is a-freakin’-mazing. I wish I thought for a minute that I’d be able remember it for next time!
Perhaps a post-it…if I can manage not to lose it….
-
chigau (違う):
January 3rd, 2013 at 11:42 pm
theophontes
I have had “shark fin” soup in Canadian Chinese restaurants.
I cannot tell a shark’s fin from a shark’s anus.
Those people tossing away the non-fin shark-bits are missing out on a HUGE foreign market.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 11:50 pm
They just keep on coming. They never stop. The Stupid™ is coming to get Barbara, it’s coming to get us all.
*This thread.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 3rd, 2013 at 11:52 pm
Cicely:
I’ll remind you. :D
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 3rd, 2013 at 11:57 pm
Yeah, Caine; that D is only the latest in the line of special cupcake shaped snowflakes.
I mean, damn, woman would make as much as men if only they stayed on the job and stopped dropping out to raise children.
Duh.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:02 am
Janine:
Yeah, I saw that the Magical shit sandwich of logic and reason explained that unequal pay was because of those wimmin dropping out of work to raise the children. I guess that makes it perfectly okay for prospective employers continuing to discriminate against young women on the basis that they might get knocked up.
chigau (違う):
January 4th, 2013 at 12:02 am
I’m going to bed.
And because I don’t pay attention, I am going to read some Joanna Russ.
RIP April 29, 2011.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:09 am
I’m sitting in bed and Amelia is under the fleece throw, on my lap, getting tummy scritchies and chewing on my fingers.
chigau (違う):
January 4th, 2013 at 12:11 am
Caine
give Amelia extra scritchies from me.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:12 am
…uh, you were the most recent person who replied in the fashion I was address. I didn’t mean anything personal by quoting your statements and not the others; I simply figured it’d be redundant. :/ (I have no recollection of the previous instances you allude to, but I would assume something similar was going on there.)
I don’t dispute the initial premise, but very broadly, letting what has been in some cases unthinking rudeness of a not-”angry” confrontational fashion or 2) a transgressive behavior cloaked in “Cargo-Cult Civility” pass unchallenged and then either chiding someone who reacts to it with honest anger for doing so, or aggressively “refusing to take sides”, carries an implicit endorsement or legitimization of the initial offending behavior and, in the worst case, alienates people reacting to what they have every reason to feel was an attack, merely a slightly subtler one. Surely we understand why this is a problem?
Also, Morgan’s response here was pretty mild, objectively.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:14 am
Chigau, done. She’s happily rolling about and laughing, I’m sure.
cicely (The Less Sore of Two Measles):
January 4th, 2013 at 12:18 am
Bed time, for me, my cold and a fuckton of decongestants.
“If I should drown before I wake….”
-
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:23 am
D came back. He clarified his statement about about hope a rapist would be convicted by a victim’s statement; that is what feminists are working towards. And what of the men who are falsely accused when it is like that?
I think D stands for dumb.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:25 am
I am getting my letters confused, it is B. And B is short for bunkum.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:29 am
Janine:
Yes, I saw. The mythical Feminist Rape Law™. Oooga Booga, men, the wimmin are a comin’ for your balls!
Jesus. Considering that VAWA just got slid across the table to conveniently fall in the circular file, I don’t think we’re getting that “law” into place any time soon.
Hekuni Cat, MQG:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:31 am
Joe – I hope BossNurse feels better soon.
Pteryxx – You’re back! I’ve missed you. *pouncehug*
michaeld:
My thoughts exactly.
Caine – You are awesome. And never give up your weapons. ♥
Krasnaya Koshka *hugs*
cicely
*pouncehug* Does this mean you have lost your D&D (and Scrabble) playing daughter-in-law? If so, that is very sad. Also, get well soon. [It's a good thing diseases can't be transferred via a *pouncehug.*]
Weed Monkey:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:31 am
A scare: my mother suddenly found out she could not get out of her bed without feeling dizzy, nauseous and having double vision. At the moment she has spent two nights at the hospital for observation, and the doctor thinks it might have been a minor infarction in the brain with no serious long term effects. That was a serious relief.
I’m 36 and don’t want to accept the fact that my parents are mortal.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:33 am
But Caine, if one can imagine a fear, one must make one’s foe account for it.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:34 am
Hekuni Cat:
Never. ♥
Weed Monkey, I’m glad your mum is alright.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:36 am
Janine:
So it would seem. For someone who keeps claiming they aren’t fearful, he’s got one helluva list of scary shit the wimmin are gonna do.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:37 am
He is now demanding that I address his fear.
*eyeroll*
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:47 am
Janine:
There is no addressing that nonsense because it’s nonsense. Fortunately, these days, we have some pretty darn sophisticated forensics. This makes a fear of being imprisoned for a rape you didn’t commit fairly easy to avoid*. You just have to not rape anyone.
Not 100% guaranteed, nothing is.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:53 am
To be fair, there are some pervasive problems with forensics as practiced. Ed Brayton’s posted about them on occasion. Doesn’t change the overall point, though, and applies as much to false negatives as false positives, I’d think. :/
Weed Monkey:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:14 am
Caine
Me too. Thanks.
mildlymagnificent:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:48 am
It’s OK folks. We can all relax. We’re now assured that “our” goals are “worthy”, but we need to be on the lookout for “PC policing”, “slippery slope” and all that.
Hope you’re all pleased with these enthusiastic accolades. I was thrilled to bits. /sort of
(Truthfully? I think I detect a hint of a rumour of a possibility that someone just might have made a teensy tiny error somewhere in the previous posts. Too hard to see behind the fog of fuckwittery, but it might emerge if it survives this episode. I’m not laying down any money on that anyway.)
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:56 am
mildlymagnificent, yes, all that terrible PC baggage, just a weighing down feminism. Why do those bitches have to get all hysterical when you call ‘em bitches? See, PC baggage, man.
Beatrice:
January 4th, 2013 at 2:13 am
rq,
Well, I’m replying to you in the morning so that tells you something. :)
Thankfully, “they” realized that I can’t do any of my mentor’s regular work, so I’m helping a colleague with some little jobs or doing nothing/reading some manuals/reading pharyngula.
I believe this will change next week when the mentor is back. I’m hoping I will get to do something and learn something. At least the time will pass more quickly. Not to mention the whole training for which they have me here on these peanuts of a paycheck.
I want to learn.
—–
re. : food touching on the plate
What sgbm said in #566
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 2:16 am
Long time Pharyngulites:
Are there any threads that just won’t die? The feminist experiment thread seems to keep attracting new (and woefully inept) challengers, which made me curious.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 2:20 am
Weed Monkey:
I dearly hope your mother recovers from whatever ails her quickly.
rorschach:
January 4th, 2013 at 2:21 am
It used to happen more often on the SB Pharyngula, not so much since the change to FTB, methinks.
rorschach:
January 4th, 2013 at 2:23 am
In other news, it was 42C/107F here today(still is 40 at 723pm now), I didnt sleep one minute, and have to work all night now…
*grumble*
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 2:25 am
Caine @661:
::suddenly the shoop clutches his balls, afraid the feminazis are looking for ingredients for their soup::
Keep away. I have holy water, crosses and PEAS.
mildlymagnificent:
January 4th, 2013 at 2:26 am
Speaking of thrilled to bits, it’s about half past 6 and the local temperature has now been below 40C for an hour or so. But no sign of the cool change we were promised.
Just as well I didn’t post this when I left it sitting in the open window. It’s back up to 42 now. The thrills are now shattered remnants. Tomorrow I’m out looking for an air conditioner that a) doesn’t sound like a plane taking off in the living room b) uses less power than 6 ovens. Though I have to get the appliances for the new kitchen first. Whoopee! (We’ve ordered it based on the mortgage-the-rest-of-your-life funds, but I could live another 30 years if I follow family tradition. The kitchen here would be older than I am now by that time. And the mortgage is only 10 years anyway.)
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 2:59 am
mythbri @548,
Such a perfect summation of but one aspect of religion is not to be bettered.
(Molly comment)
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:09 am
Good morning!
First of all, if I may, even my earliest impressions of Caine are far from fragile. And xir best weapons have been a razour-sharp mind, loaded with experience, attached to a set of fingers with a keyboard. *bows low*
Krasnaya Koshka
Thank you for sharing your battle with alcoholism. It’s insight I value, but which probably won’t help me much – in the sense that it’s the Husband’s father who has alcohol issues (see: Christmas), and he won’t face them, and while he may care, it doesn’t show too much to his children (skipping Christmas, seeing a woman they strongly disapprove of**, etc.). On my side of the family is a pervasive social sort of alcoholism (where no social event may pass without the consumption of alcohol!). On Husband’s side, it’s a bit harder, due to the Latvian culture, which (since about ooooh 1941) has been heavily steeped in Russian culture, and now it’s hard to tell whether the masculinity=DRINK MORE is a previously Latvian trait, or a borrowed Russian one permeating society (probably a mixture of both, since the two go waay back). And it shows, sometimes, like when he told me I ruined his New Year’s because I asked him to drive (being generally exhausted from a mixture of things, going to a place where I don’t always feel comfortable, and having to sit around being the only one cold-sober and waiting for the moment we can leave and then trying to collect Husband and all three kids with everyone protesting ‘just a bit longer!’ just didn’t make me think Happy New Year to myself at all), which meant he couldn’t keep up in the drinks department with his two friends. The evening wasn’t a total waste, but… It’s little things like that (and yes, I know I’m not the perfect, abstaining, non-ulteriorly-motivated wife), and this is Husband actively understanding that his family has a problem with alcohol, but (I think) blind to how deep the culture is entrenched in this idea that you have to drink if you want to be socially accepted.
I also don’t know where someone like Husband’s father could possibly go to get help, but I know the fact that all his friends would question his reasons for not drinking any longer would drive him right back to it in no time at all. Anyway, that’s all a bit disconnected, but… *sigh* Thanks for sharing, is what I mean.
**I have to say that while I understand their upset, I also believe that he is allowed to see whomever he wants at whatever point in time he wants. It doesn’t mean his kids have to like it, or have to like the woman, but they certainly can’t try to force him to change.
firefighters
Wow. Socio-gen, that sounds like a terrible fire-fighting experience – honestly? more certifications, more cred, more time, and still no promotion? Has she ever asked why (do I want to know)? I believe she deserves at least a few steps up – would it help if she asked? In the sense that maybe the management doesn’t believe she wants any promotions because she’s a woman, and everyone knows women just don’t want to be promoted enough. I would hate for her to remain so knowledgeable yet unacknowledged.
Yep, I love that there are active, capable, and perfectly ordinary women firefighters out there, and damn anyone who says it’s just for the quotas (if it would be, they wouldn’t go on for further training; if it would be, the women would get promoted from time to time, because you know, quotas…). Echhh…
forensics
It’s not always easy to get the right kind of evidence in rape cases. I don’t know how many cases I’ve seen where, from the description, it’s clear that a rape has occurred, but extracting the DNA evidence is difficult to impossible or just non-existent. No, it’s not like having splashes of all kinds of bodily fluids all over one’s clothing. Even if all kinds of swabs have been taken very soon after the event, there’s no guarantee that you’ll find any evidence in the most incriminating locations. BUT I speak for this little backwater of a European country, where a thing like a rape-kit has not yet been invented or approved by the government, so it’s probably different elsewhere. But forensic evidence isn’t always cut-and-dried, which is why it’s even more important not to shame victims, but to listen to them (and yes, to listen to the other side, but honestly, the victim most of all), and to mete out appropriate punishment to rapists.
(TRIGGER WARNING: Incestuous father rapes 14-year-old daughter repeatedly since about age 9, admits to it, gets two years, daughter visits dad in jail, social services determine she’s not psychologically damaged enough to be kept apart from him… Yeah, that’s the ticket. Other case: man previously convicted of child rape gets out after three years, a few months later kidnaps 13-year-old girl, who is found raped and murdered a few km from her home; on the way to search the car, I hear the inspectors/detectives complaining the whole way about the idiot system that let the guy out and how he probably will only serve a bare minimum of time this time around, as well.)
+++
Wow, all of that got long and ranty and it’s only morning. Apologies. Need more tea.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 3:20 am
John:
I seem to vaguely recall these Mollies you speak of. Like a distant memory.
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:25 am
Tony, true. But it’s a contender for it, IMNSHO.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 3:26 am
rq:
Caine does not mind being gendered.
Sometimes I forget who does and doesn’t. I can think of 2 Lounge participants who prefer gender anonymity. Then there are people who I am unsure of, so I use non gendered pronouns (as is the case for michaeld, earlier tonight).
Beatrice:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:27 am
Go to the office number 218, she tells me.
After finally finding the right part of this maze, look at that! There is 218, in which there is no person by the name I am looking for, there is 218A and ranging from 218/1 to 218/12.
I find the person who sent me there in the first place and she is all surprised how I couldn’t find it. (it was /6 I needed, by the way)
*facepalm*
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:37 am
Tony
One day, I’ll get it right.
One day.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:49 am
Beatrice
Like how here, when I went for my job interview, I had to find building 72b. Well, there was 72, then 72a, then 72c… and 72b was after the next intersection.
Good luck! ;)
ednaz:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:53 am
Hello All!
I was just catching up on the Matt Dillahunty thread and I must second a bow to The Horde for their collective AWESOMENESS.
Also, thanks to Athyco’s story, I now understand without a doubt what smegmarmalade means.
: D : D : D : D
carlie:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:34 am
I’m sorry, Weed Monkey. I hope it works out.
ON fights in the lounge – I’m perfectly fine with spats or what have you that just go one or two exchanges. After all, everybody says things thoughtlessly once in awhile, or is grumpy, or it hits just that particular topic that is upsetting. It’s when it starts stretching out with lots of back and forth, and more especially when other people then start lining up on one side or the other that it ought to go to Thunderdome. A quick “here’s what I think you should do” followed by an exasperated “get bent” doesn’t seem to me to violate lounge behavior, especially if it’s then followed by a “Sorry, I didn’t mean to be a snot” and a “Thanks, I’m just a little touchy about that subject”.
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:38 am
Krasnaya Koshka and WMD KItty
I left you a reply at the Thunderdome
Caine
Well, I noticed how my nice and polite reply rendered me completely invisible, too.
But it’s a brilliant strategy: let’s just ignore all victims so they don’t get hurt by talking about things that might prevent sexual assault and we’ll never have to deal with the issue again.
ginger
The main thing about ginger is that it’s fucking awesome.
esteleth
Well, I’d say your chances are best for getting a pony.
Weed Monkey
Glad your mum is better
(((hugs)))
Something nice
Giliell’s Goose Stuffing
For a 10lbs bird:
4 apples (not too sweet ones)
2 Brezeln (or breakfast rolls)
garlic
onion
thyme
cumin
grated peel of 1 orange
freshly ground ginger
4 eggs
liver of the goose
salt
pepper
Chop everything, stuff bird.
Louis:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:52 am
Giliell,
Words to live by…
Louis
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:57 am
Giliell
And then… eat raw?
I don’t know how to cook a goose, although I’ve done duck and turkey several times each. Want to try it, though (but I have a cranberry-apple stuffing planned out, although this looks good!). How long and at what temperatures do you cook your goose until it is fully cooked?
+++
Also, yes. ginger all-out rocks, and has apparently some anti-nausea properties, according to woo. From personal experience, I can say it does wonders for colds (as tea with honey and/or cranberries) and general illness, as well as upset stomach (in the form of ginger ale).
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 6:30 am
Ginger is ok. Cannot touch gaaaaaaarrrrrlllliiiiic.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:39 am
Garlic has a completely different niche from ginger in my house, so they’re fully compatible and go well together without infringing on each other’s territory. That being said, if I had to chose, I am Team Garlic.
Louis:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:59 am
Rq,
Goose tip:
Use a VERY deep roasting tin. Geese are very fatty birds.
Something my (now much older and wiser restaurateur) father discovered in his youth when cooking several geese for Christmas dinner and the fat spilled over and caught fire on the flame in the gas oven, setting quite a large fire in the restaurant kitchen. It was his first, and last, commercial Christmas goose effort.
I believe Norty Werdz were used at the time, and large amounts of damp kitchen cloths met their makers.
Louis
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:05 am
Louis
What a show for Christmas. Lumps of coal for everyone!
Also, I know all about fatty birds. The first duck nearly did us in, too, and that in an electric oven and all… (I thought I’d be ok with a shallow pan and no rack.) But if goose cooks similar to duck, then I believe I can cook the best possible goose ever cooked by me.
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:06 am
rq
Ehm, first I fried it, then I roasted it for 3.5 h at 80° and when I noticed that it was taking too much time I turned up the heat to 200°. The breast was a bit dry…
Matt Penfold:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:19 am
You can also drain off some of the fat during cooking, but don’t pour it away. The fat can be used to roast potatoes – totally delish.
Also, use a trivet. If you don’t have one, put some carrots, onions and celery chopped into large chunks and place the goose on that.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:24 am
Giliell
Fried how?
The way I did duck was pour boiling water over it, then give it something like 20 minutes at 220, then about 3 hrs at 180. (I’m assuming you meant 180 when you wrote 80…) Would that work for a goose as well?
Matt Penfold
I’ve heard wonderful things about goose and duck fat, especially in combination with potatoes.
Matt Penfold:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:33 am
Goose can be treated like duck pretty much. Prepare in the same way, cook in the same way but keep in mind geese are bigger and will take a bit longer to cook. And like with duck, it is better to slightly undercook than overcook. Depending on size, cook for 3 – 3.5 hours. To prevent the breast meat drying out, cover with foil and only uncover for the last 30-40 mins.
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:34 am
rq
No, I meant 80°. I’m a big fan of slow cooking, but I should have started in the morning already.
I fried it on the oven in something like this and then put that in the oven.
+++
So Sam Harris must really like the taste of his foot in his mouth
Gun-nuttery sprinkled with his usual casual racism.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:43 am
Decided to try to catch up on the feminism-experiment thread (1000+ comments? really?). Need this about ten times. (Warning: kitty cuteness!)
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:48 am
[off-topic/new topic]
Ooooooooooooooh deeeeeeeeeeearrrrr… I think we’re about to buy a house, and that makes me freakin’ terrified, because, you know, house. Mortgage. House. House! Mortgage. Bills. HOUSE!
We’ve been planning and hoping to find the best possible outcome for a while, and it suddenly appeared in the New Year, and now it’s like – *smash* decision time! And all of a sudden I have all these doubts about the house or our abilities to pay or whatever… Eeeeeeecccchhhhhhhh… Ehhh?
I’m a bit nervous and scared about the whole prospect. Because money and banks. But house! Ehhhh… What do I do?
birgerjohansson:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:57 am
Canadian geese are very useful birds, apart from the human-goose culinary aspect.
We have a bioinvasion of Spanish snails in Scandinavia (“killer snails” we call them because they are like locusts to the gardens) and Canadian geese are the only animals willing to eat the critters.
.
I wonder what DNA hybrids we could make, starting with Canadian geese? They are pretty aggressive. Pit bull geese for protection? Improved goats that eat absolutely everything, guard your house, and fly south for winter?
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:01 am
But then, who guards your house in winter?
jose:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:02 am
Holy hell people are obsessed.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:20 am
birgerjohansson
You get the killer Spanish snails, too? I say combine them with the geese and let them eat themselves…
mildlymagnificent:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:28 am
Ginger and garlic. Reminds me one of the daughters used to make a tea which she claimed was good for a cold. A peeled clove of garlic, couple of slices of fresh ginger, + some other aromatic thing, all steeped in a pot of green (or white) tea. Drink after 5 or so minutes with apparent relish.
You may think it strange, but I never tried it myself.
michaeld:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:37 am
Giliell
The extreme cold of canadian winters along with an influx of polar bears from the north makes home defense in the winter a non issue as no one wants to go outside to begin with.
Pteryxx:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:19 am
d’aww, thanks for welcomes, Hekuni Cat and cicely. Dunno just *how* back I am with the comment threads being so huge here and so much to catch up on, but I’ll pop in and out. (I just couldn’t resist tangling with B over there at the expense of adulting in meatspace, heh heh heh)
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:55 am
I thought I had arrived the other day.
Nope!
@ElevatorGATE has started tweeting at me. And the tweets I’m getting have shifted from “lol ur stoopid” to “go suck [racial slur] cock, bitch.”
^_^
At this rate, I’ll be on to blatant death threats on Tuesday.
I made an important discovery today! Camped out next to the coffee stand was a group of nurses with clipboards, sphygmomanometers, and lancets. They informed me that in exchange for them telling me my height, weight, belly circumference, cholesterol (HDL, LDL, triglycerides), blood sugar, blood pressure, and heart rate, that they would give me $125.
I paused and asked what the catch was.
Apparently there wasn’t one. So I got a form with numbers on it, a band-aid for my be-lanceted fingertip, $125, and a flier for the fitness center. Go me?
Beatrice:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:58 am
Esteleth,
Cool.
The unexpected $125, not the threats that you can look forward to. Those suck.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:02 am
I could have done without the ZOMG UR BMI IS 26 stuff, but hey. Given that every other data point was within the healthy range, they had to concede that maybe my slightly-high-BMI wasn’t much of a problem.
*grumble* I want to get my W-2! I want to file my taxes! I want to receive the $1800 refund that I know I’m getting! I want to spend that damn money! *shakes fist at HR*
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:04 am
Yes, that’s what it is. And about how I would look in tutu…
Beatrice:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:05 am
Isn’t BMI shit since it doesn’t take into account muscle mass vs. fat?
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:10 am
Rather.
Also, it is not designed to measure individuals, but populations. Critiquing an individual’s BMI is analagous to me walking up to you and saying, “Beatrice, the average American woman is 165.1 centimeters tall. Are you 165.1 centimeters tall? No? SHAME ON YOU. MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE PAINFUL SURGERY ON YOUR LEGS.”
The “ideal” BMI of a population is in the 18-25 range. The BMI of a population drifting out of that range is in fact a matter of concern. But it is a matter of concern in the same way that the life expectancy of a population dropping below 65 is a matter of concern.
nightshadequeen:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:11 am
That and AFAIK the factor of 2 in the denominator hasn’t been experimentally proven to be the right factor.
(Last I heard, which actually may be hearsay, it should be ~2.7)
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:13 am
ginger
is quite good for nausea/upset stomach IME. We tend to keep some dried, sweetened ginger around for that purpose. I have also had very good luck on that score with Aloe Vera juice. The taste leaves something to be desired, but it does seem to help settle our stomachs.
Esteleth
Boo for twitter trolls. I too want my W-2. I don’t think I’m getting as much back as you are, but I’m getting at least a few hundred, and I need that money, dammit.
I also am chronically annoyed by people who look at BMI alone as though it meant something. In combination with high body fat percentages, high BMI statistically correlates with higher rates of certain health problems, but the thing is that anyone who’s got a high enough body fat percentage to fall in that category will pretty much inevitably also have a high BMI, so really it BMI means pretty much shit on an individual level. It’s useful as a statistical tool on the population level (which, incidentally, is why it was created in the first place)
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:15 am
I’m late to the party, but I’m definitely on the ginger-is-great-wave.
For a cold, my recommendation is some good slices of ginger in a standard longdrink glass, half a lime (squeeze it till it hollers nuncle, then drop it in) a good wallop of honey and for either your first or your last of the day: A shot of the spirit of your choice (Barbados rhum for me please). Fill with hot water and let it infuse a bit before drinking. Chew some of the ginger if you don’t find it too spicy.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:19 am
I guess that’s what happens when I get don’t refresh before I post.
Also, I like duck, but goose is a bit rich for me.
Beatrice:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:20 am
Now that you’ve mentioned it, I don’t even know how tall I am. Definitely under 165cm. (No! Not the stretching machine!!)
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:21 am
The reason I’m getting so much back is that my employer automatically withholds taxes from my paycheck. Why they withhold so much I do not know, but they do. So if I weren’t getting withholding, I would owe federal taxes to the tune of ~$1500 (probably somewhat less, because I have deductions I can claim). But because of the withholding, I have, paycheck by paycheck, paid over twice as much as I owe. Hence the refund.
BMI in an individual, taken in combination with belly circumference (which is in fact an indicator), muscle/fat ratio, and all that can be a somewhat useful diagnostic.
But seriously. In the past 10 years, my BMI has gone from nearly 30 (athlete), to 15 (cancer patient), to nearly 30 again (cancer survivor trying to learn entirely new eating habits and how to manage a completely changed metabolism) to 26 (cancer survivor getting the hang of these new eating habit and metabolism). The middle two states are in fact concerning. But simply saying “You don’t weigh enough!” and “You weigh too much!” would not have been exactly helpful.
michaeld:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:22 am
nerd Ah ok I kept having the feeling I’d seen it before.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:33 am
Ugh. Head colds suck. My sinuses feel as if an elephant has moved in.
++
I can’t believe the “why you hate feminism” thread is still going.
— —
cicely:
Condolences on your son’s divorce.
—
Alethea:
Same here. Caine’s “assclam in smegmarmalade sauce” was excellent, but I want “we are legion, motherfucker, and we won’t be silenced” on a T-shirt.
—
Dalillama:
Well, it’s a volunteer fire company in a small town. There are maybe 20 ambulance calls a week, and usually two-three fire calls a month (which can be a motor vehicle accident, fire, tree/wires down, traffic control, manpower for an ambulance call, etc. Less than 10 actual fires per year.
Unfortunately, that leaves a lot of free time for “pranks” by whoever’s assigned at the station (1st-due rig driver) and/or whatever buddies of his stop by to hang out.
—
Weed Monkey:
Glad your mom is okay!
—
mildlymagnificent:
Oh. Well…good? I feel better now that we have approval. *snort*
—
rq:
The problem is that officer positions are filled by voting. There are two kinds of voters — social members (townspeople who pay for annual coverage) who choose from a list of nominees, top three vote-getters for each position (if there are three) go on the ballot for the active members (the people who actually fight the fires and whatnot). To get on the SM ballot, you have to be nominated by someone who isn’t related to you and who’s been an active member for more than 3 years.
My brother can’t nominate her and, although she’s told lots of people she wants to stand for officer spots, the ones who could won’t because “what if you get pregnant?” I think there’s also fear of the ribbing/mocking they’d get from the others if they did, plus the rumor mill would instantly accuse her of having an affair with whoever nominates her.
It would be a lot easier in a paid fire district because promotions are merit-based, instead she’s got to deal with small-town insularity and politics.
+++
Eep! A house!
—
birgerjohansson:
My younger son has a phobia about geese, which is understandable, having been bitten in a most delicate area by one when he was 9. It’s wrong of me, I know, but I still laugh remembering my strapping big guy in his corrections uniform trying to herd his grandmother and I to safety because there were geese in the parking lot of Cracker Barrel. (I don’t laugh around him, of course, because I feel the same way about large dogs I don’t know.)
—
Esteleth:
And yet they tell us women are just over-sensitive harpies who are making it all up….
+++
Hey, it’s $125 dollars! Ignore the BMI* and enjoy the cash!
*Useless number that doesn’t mean diddly and doesn’t take into account differing body types or muscle mass. (Or, as I read further, what everyone else said.)
morgan:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:40 am
To WMDKitty and everyone else I bleated at last night, I apologize. My rant was inappropriate, uncalled for and damn rude. I’m sorry.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:50 am
Socio-gen
Well, there goes that idea right out the window (really? voting in firemen?). I suppose it makes some sort of sense if you’re trying to fill a leadership role and want to be sure most of the people behind you really will be behind you, but seriously, such a system is so easy to fuck up…
And yes, eep… It’s like… Well, what if it’s the wrong house? But as it happens, things are moving forward nicely. Rather quickly, and in a sense suddenly, which I will keep repeating because I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed rather suddenly, but we’re arranging our finances in a beneficial fashion so hopefully the first two months won’t leave us feeling broke and unable to make payments. I’m terribly nervous about the whole thing. In a good way, I think.
And may I offer a cup of ginger tea with fresh cranberries and honey?
Beatrice
Officially I’m 160cm, but I’ve been told I’m actually shorter than that, so it’s the rack for me, too. We can be rack-buddies!
Nerd
If you can pirouette like those hippos, you can wear a tutu anytime you like!
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:54 am
Socio-gen
DOUBLE EEP – I suppose technically they’re voting in firemen but I was thinking firefighters all along!! Sorry!
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:54 am
Socio-Gen
You mentioned finding her locker filled with shaving cream when she went to respond to a call. I don’t care when they put it there, the fact that they were fucking around and trying to work with a reduced crew (telling her to stay behind and clean up) is enough that they should be bounced from the crew for good. I realize that the pool of trained volunteers is small enough that that’s probably not an option, but fuck, this is people’s lives we’re talking about.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:07 am
Socio-gen:
And still no reply that doesn’t amount to:
1: A non-reply to the OP
2: I hate feminism because of [strawman]/[(a distortion of) a specific subset]
3: I hate feminism because of [insufficient research]
4: [libertarian arsehattery]
(Or did I miss some replies?)
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:14 am
rq:
You can be a firefighter without being voted in (as long as you’ve completed training) but you can’t hold leadership positions. As with all small town things, “it ain’t what you know, it’s who you know.” And, yes, it makes it really easy to keep some people out or keep certain people in.
Mmm…that tea sounds delicious!
++
*checks the converter again*
I’m 157.5cm, so I guess it’s the rack for me as well.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:19 am
Still painful as hell (or so I hear) but probably more effective:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002965.htm
throwaway:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:21 am
Slashdot: Why Girls Do Better At School I bet you can’t guess what’s going on in the comments…
First comment, sexist, modded up to “Insightful”. Here’s a snip:
Later in fact-check free world:
And they answer their own rhetorical fact-free question with “Why yes! Of course that’s it! You paragon of verisimilitude! How I long to have you inside me!”
chigau (違う):
January 4th, 2013 at 11:22 am
I’m 167cm but I’m shrinking as I age.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:23 am
Socio-gen
That’s what I meant re: firefighters. Sorry for the unclarity.
Gnumann+
Even taking all that into account, it’s surprising it’s still so alive, and not tapering off. I guess none of the new commenters bother reading the old ones, because from what I could gather, it was all the same arguments ad nauseum.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:25 am
Well, chigau, when you cross the 165.1cm threshold, let us know and we’ll open up a slot on the rack for you, to keep you in shape. Because prevention.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:26 am
The MRAs are not exactly famous for doing their homework. Kinda works as a selection process I guess.I was cured when I was forced to do some for one (if we accept anecdotes).
Beatrice:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:27 am
*shudder*
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:29 am
Gnumann+
I’d prefer a peer-reviewed scientific journal article, but with a sample size of 1, I don’t expect anyone will be willing to publish, so I’ll take it. ;)
It’s remarkable what some actual reading on a subject can do to the mind.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:29 am
Dalillama:
Oh, agreed!! And yeah, the pool of volunteers is so ridiculously small (and that’s true everywhere). There are 30 active firefighters in their department, and at any given time, only half of that is available to respond when the tones drop. So, they know they can get away with just about anything.
And, of course, it’s cultural. Very, very few people inside or outside the fire company see anything wrong with what they did (and do). “It’s a joke, it didn’t hurt anything, gotta toughen up if you’re going to act like a man, oughta be grateful they even let you in, blah blah blah.”
—
Gnumann:
I think you covered it pretty well. Straw-feminism is quite popular.
I see the latest candidate is totally against feminism because VICTIM STATEMENT=CONVICTION and WIFE!
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:31 am
*shudder* Thanks, Beatrice. Personally, given my proportions, I’d prefer a slightly longer torso – just under the ribcage would be nice. Someone forgot to leave a bigger space between my lower ribs and my hipbones, so squashed hourglass it is (wearing pants with a high-ish waist makes me sag all over the front). Maybe you can take it out of my shoulder breadth somehow…
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:34 am
throwaway:
Color me surprised…not.
—
rq:
No worries! I didn’t refresh so I hadn’t seen your correction.
Beatrice:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:37 am
Socio-gen,
I despise pranks. It looks to me that most are either harmful or humiliating.
—-
rq,
That was Gnumann’s link, I just quoted it for shudders.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:38 am
rq
House! Hooray! Hugs for the scariness. I totally get that. I have almost $200K in student loans but the idea of a car or house loan somehow scares me more. Which is weird, because one of those three is not dischargeable in bankruptcy, and the other two are…
Socio-gen
That’s a rather ridiculously stringent protection against nepotism. If there’s voting, the nominations should be taken from whoever. Weird and insular, indeed. My department allows voting on officers only by those who are active members of the FD. I shudder to think the politics that would play out if the whole damn town were more involved in the politics that they already are.
`-`-`-`
Re: toughen up and act like a man. Yes. I have gotten that response to the mildest complaint to a family member about nasty sexual comments made in my presence. It’s another case of “women must adjust and change because boys will be boys!” It’s sickening to me that no one considers that maybe the MEN should perchance reflect on themselves or suppress their nasty thoughts and keep that shit to themselves.
`-`-`-`-`-`
Your story about your son’s fear of geese gave me a smile as well, after a sympathetic shudder at the source of the fear! I was chased by but not caught by emus and one particularly nasty rooster as a kid, and aggressive birds still make me a little leery.
Dalillama
Seriously.
dontpanic:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:42 am
Caine@666
I lost the thread of who this was referencing, but in the same vein you have to read baal’s comment over at Ed’s place. Just wildly over the top fearful.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:43 am
Ah, back to the rack then I guess.
Sawing off the spinal column might have some bad side-effects…
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:45 am
FUCKETY FUCK FUCK. Rape by impersonation isn’t rape if victim isn’t married
Oh, if only she’d had an owner! *puke*
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:48 am
dontpanic:
Broken link :(
Did you mean this one
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:49 am
Socio-gen
…I’ll be over here in the corner weeping.
And legal bullshit like that is exactly the reason rapists rape. Because they can. They know they can.
dontpanic:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:00 pm
Gnumann+, yes. Sorry for the borked link.
Seriously, as I followed up, how does that person ever leave the house? The comments in Ed’s thread weren’t actually that vicious. A bit more strenuous that usual, but milder than most anything here. And “baal” honestly thinks that those people if placed in a room with him (I’ll guess on pronoun) and given knives would actually cut him? The only way I can wrap my head around that comment is by treating it as a massive case of projection.
Socio-gen. Yeah, saw that elsewhere last night. Rage-quit the RSS reader. Even now just thinking about it raises my heart rate to the point I can physically sense it.
Pteryxx:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:15 pm
*headscratch*
From Cracked:
http://www.cracked.com/article_20136_5-medical-breakthroughs-that-make-life-shockingly-easy_p2.html
but the research is here:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00213-012-2657-5
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:15 pm
Beatrice:
Agreed. Pranks are harmful to the person being pranked.
—
Portia:
Well, it came about because, in the old days, there were many more volunteers and one family kept nominating their members for all the positions and thus dominated the leadership. After five years of this working to elect the chief with diagnosed dementia, the bylaws were changed.
Unfortunately, with fewer volunteers and in a small town, it now means certain people aren’t able to nominate anyone.
++
And they know they can get away with it because of shit like this:
House Republicans kill bill targeting rapists
—
dontpanic:
I know what you mean. My blood pressure does some not-good things after reading stuff like this.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:17 pm
Giliell:
Yes, I think Mr. Nice Guy only noticed a wealth of “fucks” aimed in his direction and ran off screaming. I do believe he has issues.
Socio-gen:
You know, I think I do too.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:19 pm
Re: SAFER Act. How can they deny they are a party of rape apologists and enablers? I want to scream.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:21 pm
Socio-gen
…
What to say? I’m glad I’m owned? EW. I just…
…
Portia
Exactly – why can’t people think about the boys and maybe teach them to be sensitive to the feelings of others? Oh right, they’re boys and will never have feelings of their own, so mean pranks and all other kinds of name-calling and bullshit is acceptable. And if you’re a woman among men, well then, learn to act like the animals they are!
Sheesh.
Oh student loans. I’m so glad I never had one of those (even though I studied in Canada – but I was just lucky because I was lucky) and that Husband has paid off his (compared to elsewhere in the world, tuition fees in this country are extraordinarily low). But I think the difference is that house = something the bank can take away or foreclose or whatever they call it, and you invest everything into it (by ‘everything’ I mean you live in it and probably don’t have a spare apartment elsewhere, for just in cases). So it’s a huge psychological difference in that sense. Also, aren’t home-owners supposed to be responsible in all kinds of ways? I certainly don’t feel like it… Oh hey, same with parents, and oh, look…
Gnumann+
After further research over dinner (that is, none), I have also concluded that only the rack will do for me. Oh well! Just another victim of the average status quo…
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:22 pm
I just found out goodwill pays people with disabilities pennies per hour. Super sad face. Damn damn double damn. And it’s totally legal, apparently.
That was one expenditure I had never felt bad about, unlike most others in my life that come witih some guilt.
Richard Austin:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:26 pm
Socio-gen:
Okay, that whole interpretation of the opinion is suspect. You can read the whole thing, but I’ll cite the valid section.
tl;dr: The prosecution and the court fucked up and the jury convicted under a set of circumstances that did not apply; as such, the requirement is that the case be retried under the correct circumstances, and even the appeals court thinks this will be successful.
(The second part of the opinion even states that the defendant’s second grounds for appeal were invalid. They’re only sending it back on the strict grounds of conviction for the wrong crime.)
Paul K:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:29 pm
I was just reading the ‘I think youtube culture really has gone pathological’ thread and had an epiphanal moment that I wanted to share, but thought it was too off-topic there, so here I am.
Folks were discussing radical feminism, and debating the usefulness, or not, of the terms ‘man’ and ‘woman’, and it occurred to me that I’ve never been comfortable when people have called me a ‘man’. When I was younger, I thought it was because I wasn’t old enough, and it just felt weird. But I’m 52 now, so that doesn’t work anymore, and hasn’t for a long time.
I know I’m showing both a lack of knowledge and thought about both myself and feminism when I admit that I’ve never really thought this through before. It’s the word ‘man’ that is, and always has been, the problem for me. Too many of the attributes associated with it are not anything like me at all, and I refuse to be associated with it. But in the past, I always figured it was the only option for me. The comments in the thread made me realize, duh, that I don’t need any other option than ‘human’.
I guess I’ve always known this without thinking about it, but now I’ve been thinking about how I view others. I have never accepted the word for myself, but I automatically put others in the boxes of man and woman, and I need to be more careful about that. People are who they are, and should not only be free to choose how to define themselves; they should be taught that they can.
I know this is level 101 stuff for many folks, but it was a great learning moment for me, thanks to you thoughtful people here.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:34 pm
Paul K
I found this profoundly beautiful. To the point of very misty eyes. Thank you!
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:42 pm
Hey, it’s that guy!
Baal also characterized my suggestion that certain media personalities and/or their supporters (I think – it was a while ago and I don’t remember what the exact issue was) be “locked in a room full of flavored light sockets” as a “threat of violence” in the comments somewhere on JT’s blog.
This takes the cake, though:
I pointed out that it was a bit odd for him to call me violent based on snarky internet comments and his response is worth quoting in its entirety:
*facepalm*
Paul K:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:47 pm
Gnumann+ #757
*blushes*
Thank you for all the thought-provoking, and emotion-provoking, things you write.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:48 pm
Paul:
You have this a little bit wrong, Paul. We were talking about the social constructs of masculinity and femininity. This isn’t the same thing as the terms man and woman. The social constructs are complex and run very deep. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I’m reading Manhood in America: A Cultural History right now. The particular way concepts of masculinity and femininity have been built and sculpted affect everything. They affect how children are raised, how relationships are defined, the workplace, our own notions of self-worth and so on. It’s misleading to distill this down to the words man and woman.
Your own discomfort with the word man doesn’t have anything to do with that particular word as a biological descriptor, it has to do with you being uncomfortable with the current construct of masculinity.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:49 pm
This. Though it’s also important not to fall into the trap of thinking in “gender-blind” terms and glossing over both others’ self-identification and the crap they have to deal with because of the people who DO put everyone in boxes.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:54 pm
Paul K
Thank you for that post.
Paul K:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:55 pm
Yeah, Caine, I knew I was oversimplifying in my description. Sorry about that! What you write is true, and I guess I was not clear: I did not mean to say that I was uncomfortable with the word as ‘a biological descriptor’, but, just as you say, ‘with the current construct of masculinity’.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:57 pm
Azkyroth
Someone has read all your posts from the last year? !!
Paul K:
January 4th, 2013 at 12:58 pm
Azkyroth;
Exactly. People should be able to choose how they define themselves, and that is how we should accept them.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:01 pm
Caine:
I’ve been meaning to ask you:
Is it a “buy” or a “lend”?
I haven’t read any Kimmel before – is there something else I should read first?
chigau (違う):
January 4th, 2013 at 1:04 pm
[stating the obvious]
man≠male≠masculine
woman≠female≠feminine
[/stating the obvious]
Paul K:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:07 pm
Caine, #760:
One positive thing I’ve seen in the twenty+ years I’ve worked in childcare is that kids are not as indoctrinated into ‘proper’ roles as much as they used to be. At least in my little part of reality (I know it’s just anecdotal) kids no longer care much about what boys and girls are ‘supposed’ to do. And they form friendships without ridicule. Things were not like that when I was a kid.
And if kids, or their parents, do try to push others into their idea of ‘proper’, I’m all over that.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:12 pm
Gnumann:
I bought my copy from B&N. It’s not available in e-format. Esteleth mentioned she found a copy at the university library. (It’s classed as a textbook, so I don’t know about availability in regular libraries.)
Don’t know. Cyranothe2nd recommended it on the *first* page of the ‘experiment feminism’ thread. I’m finding it fascinating reading, with no need for a prerequisite.
Paul K:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:12 pm
Thanks, everyone, for continuing to challenge me! I’m off to work with those kids now.
chigau (違う), 767:
[stating the obvious]
Obvious here, but apparently impossible for some to even wrap their heads around.
[stating the obvious]
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:14 pm
Paul:
Not as much, no. However, that’s usually down to an insane level of work on the part of parents. Just ask Giliell or any of the other parents of young children here just how damn hard it is to keep toxic femininity and masculinity concepts out of their kid’s heads.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 1:20 pm
Azkyroth:
WTF was that crap that baal wrote?
I may need to read it again, because it just isn’t processing at the moment.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:20 pm
I can probably get it from the library at work if I want to, the question is more if it seems like a book I might want to have around for reference…
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:21 pm
I just had a thought, arising out of this comment, especially the point
What if – and this in no way makes up for the wage gap, but would be its own kind of wonderful – if the difference between the woman’s pay and the man’s pay is made up to her (that is, paid our to her, including corrections for such things as inflation) at said retirement party? And, childless and free, she can enjoy her retirement without worrying about her pension?
I now realize I’m forgetting all about child-ful women (including myself), so this is definitely a flaw in my plan. Maybe the salaries of child-ful women can be equalized to those of men for the reason of having kids – having that work to do being an important part of raising properly educated adults functional in society (would be nice to be paid for it). Or something.
Now I’m being unfair to stay-at-home fathers. So, I propose, that their salaries are also lowered then re-raised to the original equal level, first – to dock them for raising children, and second – to pay them for said raising of kids.
***None of this post should be taken particularly seriously. Mostly just all kinds of random thinking going on, and nerves, because house.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:23 pm
Err, how should I take this? :/
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:26 pm
It’s kinda like this only a lot more condescending and finger-waggy.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:28 pm
Azkyroth
I’m not sure. In the case of baal, probably not a particularly good thing…
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:28 pm
Gnumann:
If you’re going to go by me, reference. My highlighter has been getting a work out.
chigau (違う):
January 4th, 2013 at 1:29 pm
Azkyroth
Someone has read all your posts from the last year
[and kept careful tally of your attitudes and tone (probably on a spread-sheet (with graphs))]? !!
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:31 pm
Thanks Caine. I will take that advice.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:31 pm
Ah.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:35 pm
[rant to follow; ignore if you wish]
Also, I’m nearing the end of the feminism thread (yet again) and I have realized that famous B sounds a lot like the Husband… We recently had a conversation about women’s choices and lack thereof, especially women in science (the focus of our conversation). I pointed out that all co-ed groups of scientists I’d seen promoted from this country were 2:2 (so equal in number) but with both women working the administrative half of the projects and both men working the research/technical aspect. Almost exclusively (physics, chemistry definitely). He said Well, maybe women realize they’re better at the administrative stuff. Maybe they chose to be there. I answered, What about society’s pressure? When you’ve been told from childhood that women don’t do math, that women don’t think creatively, that women do well in inter-personal aspects (like administrative tasks), how much of a choice do you think you have?
It might all sound terrible, because he always brings up how men also face discrimination, but it’s a tough haul ahead. I make sure not to belittle his male discrimination (he insists he’d love to stay at home with all the kids, if only my job paid me more), while trying to convince him of the idea that women do have it worse (“Oh, but you can’t equate the situation of women in Muslim countries with the situation of women here! That’s not the same thing!”) in general, and that feminism will also solve a lot of men’s issues, too.
Meh. He seems to be convinceable, since he does no reading and relies on me to do any and all research (which is another thing with this country – what’s with the stigma of men enjoying reading and doing a lot of reading???), so… All I have to oppose is his uninformed opinion. Easy, right?
[/rant]
Sorry. I’m awfully ranty tonight. Please ignore, if desired.
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:44 pm
So…
My wife is better. Exhausted but better. Still banned from work until Monday, but I guess that’s good? I’m used to having the house to myself and my whole schedule is out of whack. I hardly know when to nap now! Seriously though, when my wife is home I do nothing and I guess she thinks I never do anything… I like to do stuff when no one is watching, mostly because I sort of change tasks every 30-45 minutes and I think it probably looks funny from the outside and it makes me self-conscious.
Weed Monkey: Hope your mom is OK.
I’ve come to grips with my mother’s mortality, since she’s been guilt tripping me with “I’m not going to be around forever” since forever. At some point I realized that she was probably younger than I am now when she started, and she was just an evil abusive person to be threatening her children with imminent orphanhood.
NO FIGHTING IN THE LOUNGE, DAMMIT!
…My dog’s name is Ginger. She doesn’t help at all with sickness, but she does try to crawl on top of/inside you when you’re sick.
cooking goose/duck: I made a duck for Thanksgiving, it is now officially my favorite kind of bird. If goose comes out like a bigger duck, I’m sold!
rq: Good luck buying a house! Make sure you have as many bathrooms as you can possibly afford. One of the keys to my happy marriage is having a bathroom of my very own. :) Speaking of which… somewhere in the garage, in one of the few remaining unpacked boxes, is my bottle of Bvlgari Aqva Pour Homme. At $80 a bottle, “poor homey” is right!
Esteleth: You’re REALLY famous now! And YAY cash!
…not touching BMI with a 10′ pole. Or anti-feminists either. Going to have a beer instead. I got a $50 GameStop gift card for Xmas and I figured I would go down there and buy a strategy guide. Instead, I got ALL the strategy guides. They were like 60-70% off. Woo! Now I can start to not suck hind teat.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 1:47 pm
chigau:
It would be hilarious if there were such a graph.
For some reason, I think it would be entertaining to see.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 1:51 pm
Joe:
Make sure you stay away from those violent video games. You know how much influence they have on our minds…
/brought to you by Snark, Inc.
a_ray_in_dilbert_space:
January 4th, 2013 at 1:53 pm
Oh, ferchrissake. Dan Sarewitz has done it again–written something so stupid that you just can’t believe he really believes this shit.
Sarewitz puts his unique spin on the Rethuglican war on science: Now he wants affirmative action for Republican Scientists.
http://www.nature.com/news/science-must-be-seen-to-bridge-the-political-divide-1.12119
Seriously, you can’t make this shit up!
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 1:56 pm
rq:
It sounds like you are making headway with your husband bit by bit. That’s a good thing. Completely overhauling your awareness of the world isn’t likely to happen overnight. It takes a chip in the armor here, a crack in the rose colored glasses there, a rip in the walls of privilege over yonder, and buckets of empathy.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 2:05 pm
IJoe:
For the oldsters who remember a certain TET conversation…See!
chigau (違う):
January 4th, 2013 at 2:12 pm
a_ray #786
Dan Sarewitz also seems to be confusing cause and effect.
Maybe the Scientists became Democrats to save their own lives.
and I’d like to see a few citations for this:
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 2:13 pm
a_ray:
Science is partisan? Sarewitz says so. It must be true! So we can have Republican science. Libertarian science. Democratic science. Green party science. Jeez, what happens when there is conflict?
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 2:16 pm
Caine… do I even want to know?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 2:25 pm
IJoe:
It was a discussion on names. I have a particular dislike of ‘Ginger’ as a name (for people), as it’s not a name, it’s a descriptor and about 3/4s of all dogs are named ‘Ginger’. This is how it goes:
My legal name is Virginia Alice. I was supposed to be Joseph Robert and apparently my mother wasn’t up to the Herculean task of considering the idea that I might not be male. So…
Great grandmother is Alice Ann.
Grandmother is Virginia Mae.
Mother is Alice Ann.
I am Virginia Alice.
My grandmother already had ‘Ginny’, and my mother already had ‘Ali’, so I got stuck with ‘Ginger’. As you might imagine, I don’t care for it much.
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 2:32 pm
OK
GinCaine, I’ll keep that in mind. :)MY Ginger was almost “Gingie” named after someone we know, but we thought that would be wrong.
chigau (違う):
January 4th, 2013 at 2:34 pm
I’m glad I wasn’t born ten years later.
My name could have been Rainbow Moonbeam.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 4th, 2013 at 2:40 pm
Somebody scold Moxie
}:)
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 2:57 pm
Too bad it was before the mighty Tim gave us the gospel on that word
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:00 pm
Tony
I certainly hope there’s progress. Otherwise, it’s not worth the effort. :)
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:01 pm
…thinking about Baal’s stuff, I think the most fucked up part of it is that he seems to think that justice SHOULD have a price, that people who stand up for what’s right SHOULD suffer for it. What the fuck is that all about?
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:01 pm
Improbable Joe:
Glad the BossNurse is feeling better.
—
chigau:
Tell me about it. I was born in 1969. My mother wanted to name me “January Joy.” (This was while she was still in her hippie phase.) My father wanted a feminized version of his names –”Harriet Leonora.” Then they came up with Guinevere Yvonne. (My dad was a huge fan of Yvonne Craig, who played Batgirl.)
Thankfully, the Guinevere ended up Anglicized into a fairly-popular name, though Yvonne stuck as my second name.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:03 pm
Improbable Joe
As for the bathrooms, it’s currently one and one in-progress, so end result: 2. That being said, after some (mildly) extensive work, it’ll be 9 rooms plus a basement. This is the Five-Year Plan, at any rate, and as long as paying the bank leaves enough to actually do some work in that time.
It’s just scary, because house. First one.
dianne:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:12 pm
I was supposed to be Joseph Robert and apparently my mother wasn’t up to the Herculean task of considering the idea that I might not be male.
No Josephine Roberta?
I had the opposite problem when pregnant: we had several possible girl names but no boy names that we liked. Critter cooperated by having two X chromosomes so never had to come up with a good boy’s name. (Still have a spare girl’s name.)
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:18 pm
Dianne:
Nope. This was a serious “oh fuck, didn’t consider that” moment. My father wanted to name me Mildred, after his mother, which led to the brilliant “No! we have to name her after my mother” which resulted in the mess I got.
Note: I would have been fine with Mildred. I would have simply shortened it to Dred.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:30 pm
I used to not be a fan of Mildred as a name but I’d love that idea.
Of course, I’d want to hit anyone that would call me “Mildy”. Ugh. Or Mild.
moarscienceplz:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:34 pm
YEAH, BABY!
moarscienceplz:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:49 pm
(I’m assuming that “this country” is the good ol’ USA.)
Is this an actual thing?
I’m a dude living in Califor-nye-A and I don’t recommend staying in my house during an earthquake – falling books could kill ya.
It has always seemed to me that voluntary illiteracy was a gender-neutral phenomenon.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 3:58 pm
moarscienceplz:
I don’t know about that. I think the concept of masculinity in the U.S. is firmly on the ‘men don’t read’ side of things. There’s a sense that to do much reading about a wide range of subjects (rather than necessary reading for some reason) is academic, therefor getting into effeminate territory.
I’m a native Southern Californian, but I’ve been living in ND for 20 years now. You certainly see the ‘men don’t read! (not books, anyway)’ construct here. Friends, acquaintances and co-workers are always giving my husband the hairy eyeball when he starts talking about a book he’s recently read. They just can’t figure out why he’d do that voluntarily. So, they assume it’s me. I must nag him into doing that, eh? They happily consider him pussy-whipped* on that score, which he doesn’t much care about, thankfully.
*Yep, I know – a whole discussion in and of itself.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:01 pm
This has fucking well been a recurring theme in the bullying I’ve experienced.
a_ray_in_dilbert_space:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:05 pm
Chigau,
The last time Sarewitz spewed stupid all over the Internet, he was prophesying the downfall of science due to creeping “systematic error”. The man is a walking cautionary tale of what happens when you send stupid to college!
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:07 pm
chigau
I went to school with a Moksha Rainbowlight
Caine 806
That’s been my experience as well. My fondness for books got me pigeonholed into ‘nerd and therefore not a real dood’ pretty early on. Since I’ve never been very fond of d00d culture, that sat pretty well with me. (ok, except for the elements of those toxic masculinities that carry over into geeky subcultures). This isn’t meant as a ‘poor me’ or anything, just adding my anecdata.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:07 pm
Azkyroth:
I wish I could say that’s surprising. I really do. I’ll also add that I saw plenty of this bias when I was living in SoCal. It’s very widespread and I think those men who do read a lot tend to have had the benefit of being raised in a household where reading for pleasure was considered to be the norm.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:07 pm
@805
Nope, not the USofA. Europe. Men don’t read here. Women are expected to. It’s a quiet activity. Men are for tractor driving.
But I’ve just discovered that men don’t read globally, so yay for that! :P And yet women get complimented off-hand for being well-read and self-educating…
a_ray_in_dilbert_space:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:08 pm
Caine,
I have a colleague who married a jock turned bidness major. Nice guy, but there are a lot of things he doesn’t get–like why my friend, who is an introvert needs to be alone when she is working on some code. I suggested a book.
My friend said, “Last time I gave him a book to read, he only made ti through 2 pages before his finger got tired.”
And yes, they are still married.
Richard Austin:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:08 pm
I’ve lived in Los Angeles County all my life, and anti-intellectualism as a whole is definitely a part of perceived masculinity for at least a portion of the population. This includes reading. I see it less nowadays than when I was a kid, but it’s still there.
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:09 pm
Hmmmm… I’m asking this here because I don’t want an argument, so if this is by necessity going to cause an argument just pretend I’m not here…
Masculinity/femininity, maleness/femaleness, manhood/womanhood. Which parts are real, which are “inborn” and which are cultural, which parts are pure nonsense, and how does one reconcile their answers with the existence and experience of trans men and trans women?
moarscienceplz:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:10 pm
Caine,
Wow, just wow.
Even my extremely right-wing BIL was happily showing off the two Bill O’Reilly books he got for Yule/Saturnalia (Ok, HE’d call it Christmas.)
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:11 pm
As an addendum to my 809, I’ve spent my life in the Pacific NW of the U.S, so it’s not just California.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:11 pm
Perhaps someone should design a stick-throwing machine? >.>
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:13 pm
Richard:
This ^ right here. Being anti-intellectual as part of being seen as a man started very early in this country. It was part and parcel of the ‘Heroic Artisan’ construct, which, when that died, got sucked into the ‘self-made man’ construct. Anti-intellectualism is a major component of masculinity.
moarscienceplz:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:15 pm
Hee hee! AND HIS LIPS!
moarscienceplz:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:16 pm
I guess living in Silicon Valley really is different from the rest of the state.
chigau (違う):
January 4th, 2013 at 4:16 pm
Today is Chris Clarke’s birthday.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:21 pm
moarscienceplz:
To an extent, because you have a concentration of professionals who need to read to stay current in their fields. You’re in a little knot of ‘higher eds’. However, I’m willing to bet that even in Silicon Valley, you’re surrounded by “men don’t read!” types. You’re simply not noticing or they are outside of your circle.
a_ray_in_dilbert_space:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:22 pm
Anti-intellectualism and masculinity:
Some people say a man is made outta mud
A poor man’s made outta muscle and blood
Muscle and blood and skin and bones
A mind that’s a-weak and a back that’s strong
Yup. deep roots.
dianne:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:22 pm
Note: I would have been fine with Mildred. I would have simply shortened it to Dred.
As in the Dred Pirate Caine, Fleur du Mal? It could work.
Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:25 pm
Well, then Maryann it is!
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:26 pm
LOL @ Josh!
moarscienceplz:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:28 pm
Caine
Well, I hang out a lot in my local Barnes & Noble, which is in a mid-to-lower middle class neighborhood, and I’d say the sex ratio there is pretty close to 50/50. A lot of them are Asian families, so maybe that’s part of the explanation, but a lot of them are hispanic, too.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:29 pm
IJoe:
Don’t want much, do you? ;) It’s important to understand that masculinity and femininity are constructs. Constructed concepts which are adopted by a culture and end up society wide. These constructs do differ from culture to culture, which conveniently shows that they are, indeed, constructs.
When you stop trying to stuff people into these constructs, people tend to do things they simply enjoy, go into careers which interest them, etc. There are concrete examples of how difficult these constructs still make such actions, such as women going into the field of engineering. It’s an incredibly hostile climate for women, because men in the engineering field consider it to be one of the last bastions of what the workplace is supposed to be – masculine, a place where homosocial bonding and competition can take place.
When it comes to transgendered people, the traditional constructs of femininity and masculinity are used to justify transphobia.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:30 pm
Dianne:
Aye, why not?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:32 pm
moarscienceplz:
So do I. I’d say the split I see at the B&N in Bismarck is more around 70/30, women to men. Of course, if you wish to count the men hanging in front of the endless magazine racks…
chigau (違う):
January 4th, 2013 at 4:34 pm
or Marianne.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:36 pm
No, no Mary/Mari anything. Remember, I was in private Catholic school during the ’60s. I was *surrounded* by Marys.
chigau (違う):
January 4th, 2013 at 4:38 pm
“homosocial”
I’ve needed this word for a long time.
Thanks, Caine.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:39 pm
All the nuns were Sister Mary _____. No. Massive statue of Mary to the side of the church altar. Scapulars with Mary on. “Say 10 Hail Marys for confession”. No Mary.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:41 pm
Chigau:
You’re welcome. I got it from Manhood in America.
moarscienceplz:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:41 pm
That doesn’t seem to be such a big draw here. Our “hangers” are generally teens either using the free Wi-Fi (for homework, the clerks tell me) or they’re reading manga.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:46 pm
moarscienceplz:
That would be a regional difference. Magazines seem to be an exception to the ‘men don’t read!’ rule.
Pteryxx:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:46 pm
generally re:
and similar…
I dare hope that MLP carries on long enough, just another couple of years, that in 2040 my old-ass self starts seeing freshly minted young PhDs with names like Rainbow Sparkle and Moonbeam Joy. (And that some, but definitely not all, of them will be women.) ;>
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:54 pm
Even the having-of-words for “woman” and “man” is cultural. Not to say that biological differences don’t exist — but we don’t have words for all the biological differences that exist (relating to sex or anything else).
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 4:54 pm
Caine:
I want it all AND without arguing. I guess my question is that if masculine/feminine are merely constructs, and often harmful constructs at that, then I still don’t get where transgendered people fit in. Are you saying that they are drawn so strongly to a construct… and that road doesn’t make sense because then gay and bisexual transgendered people sort of ruins that idea.
What I guess I’m asking is whether or not there’s any such thing as inherent maleness/femaleness, or at least spectrums of those things, that exist apart from social constructs of masculinity/femininity and such?
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:01 pm
Regarding anti-reading.
In the late 1790s, when I was in middle school in western Maryland, one of my classmates got kicked out of his house, when he was in 6th grade, because he brought a book home. About 6 weeks later he was allowed to return home. Luckily, there were about 30 families, just in that town, that were relatives.
I got branded a nerd/homosexual when I got to that school because I was reading. I think I was reading Dune.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:01 pm
Apparently, at least for some people.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:01 pm
IJoe, I’m still learning when it comes to transgender peoples, so I don’t think I’m the best person to address those specific questions. I’ll just sit here with you and wait until someone more knowledgeable in this area shows up.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:04 pm
Ogvorbis:
:shuts gaping mouth:
Woah. That’s unbearably harsh. And wrong. So very fucking wrong.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:05 pm
And Boy just found this . Yes, a buntacle.
Yes, Boy is odd.
Right now, he is listening to Korean pop music.
Weird shit.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:08 pm
Ogvorbis:
I have Octobunny!
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:08 pm
Improbable Joe:
Yes: one’s physiology (for the vast bulk of people).
(We are mammals!)
michaeld:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:11 pm
Cute yet scary octobunneh ^.^
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:11 pm
Well, his granddaddy made it all the way through life, as a successful farmer, and he never read anything. Not even the bible. He listened to it, but never read it. His dad had two books in the house — TV Guide and the bible. And he never read either one (his wife would read the TV Guide to him and the preacher read the bible to him). And he was a very good, very successful ex-stock car driver turned mechanic. Dad was real mad that his son was trying to show him up (read that as making dad look stupid) by bringing home a book.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:15 pm
Ogvorbis:
Ah, the Heroic Artisan vein of masculinity, then. Yep, it was (and is) virulently anti-intellectual.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:16 pm
These are tricky waters if you don’t want a potential mild shouting-match. Before I write this I would like to underscore that I write this to be as neutral as possible. This includes including some views I don’t agree with, and that a lot of other people here don’t agree with. I hope I succeed.
The relatively safe place to start: Sex versus gender.
A person’s sex is their biological sexual characteristics. Usually either male or female, but there are persons with mixed sexual characteristics (they usually don’t conform to the old hemaphrodite myth though).
A persons gender is their sexual identity. This may or may not correspond to their biological sex. Gender is a social construct. Western cultures traditionally have either male or female as options, but there are other cultures with other genders.
The extent to which sex determines gender is contested. Also, the extent to which sex determines behaviour is (hotly) contested. Hard science on this is extremly difficult to get right. This being the lounge I suggest we don’t expand on this.
And I’ll have to take Caines approach on fitting in transgendered people. Especially in a lounge-friendly text.
If you decide you want a more in-depth explanation with the whys and wherefores more explained, I don’t think we should do it in the lounge. And you’d better prepare for at least a mild, good-natured ruckus.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:19 pm
Just signed Wife up for a paper Wireless catalog. And found this. Bacon blanket!
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:20 pm
If the above was true, this would not follow:
trans people’s sexual orientation would not mean gender is not a construct; no more than cis people’s sexual orientation would.
I’m a gay cis man. Why do I call myself a man? In my case, because decades ago I was told I was a boy; it’s an identity I’ve learned. Now, if I had grown up in a world where laypeople did not use sex or gender terminology, I think I’d probably nevertheless be sexually interested in one unnamed biological group and not another.
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:25 pm
Yeah… maybe I’m asking too much from the Lounge. I guess my point is that I have a hard time reconciling the idea of “social construct” with the stated experience of transgendered people. Since I accept the stated experience of transgendered people (not to mention my own experience), that sort of makes the “social construct” parts a little more complex.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:25 pm
Yeah, I’m a little confused as to what IJoe is getting at. I’m bisexual and I’m more comfortable with gender fluidity, however, I was raised a girl, so there ya go. Is it worth noting that I fought seriously feminine things, such as dresses, fiercely? That I was a ‘tomboy’ growing up? A ‘tomboy’ with hair down to her knees?
See, I don’t find much use in the constructs, I think they do a great deal of harm.
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:28 pm
re: men reading
The reason it came to mind is because I like to buy a science magazine that is (ostensibly) marketed for mid-30s educated men. It’s got great articles in it and fantastic photos (ok, I buy it for the photos! NOT.). And I commented to the Husband that it’s strange how on the questions/comments page, out of about 15 comments, only 2 came from men, in a magazine (ostensibly) for men. And he said that’s because men don’t read. Which was a shock to me, because growing up in Canada, all my brothers were/are avid readers and I knew quite a few boy-readers, who were not looked down on, and even had a great deal of respect (even some who went on to become English majors and the like – yes, anecdote =/= evidence). So I thought about it, and while it seems to be socially ok for men here to read men’s magazines (of the FHM or Playboy or do-it-yourself-building type), I really can’t picture too many of them reading anything else – no novels, no science-y magazines, nothing just for the sake of reading. Most books that get translated are aimed at women (Twilight, 50 Shades).
It might have something to do with the state of literature and how it is historically perceived in the country (literature = High Art, where, if your point isn’t obscure or difficult to understand, it’s not art) and also the fact that it isn’t easily accessible because it’s not something you do for fun, it’s something you do because you must. Reading is supposed to be a very intellectual activity.**
I’ve tried to read the Latvian classics, and frankly, they’re… slow, boring, too flowery, and way too deeply nature-philosophical. I can’t name any new authors, because the ones that make it to some sort of popularity are government-funded or backed by the Ministry of Culture beause they’re Deep and High Art. I prefer my fiction in English, and my fact, too, because a lot of ‘fact’ books here are actually deep into the woo pile. Also, books translated into Latvian don’t always work well. (50 Shades of Grey, Harry Potter and the Twilight series seem to be exceptions. That being said, the translated literature field seems to be expanding lately, but they still pick every mainstream, accepted books, and anything off the beaten track is difficult to access.)
**While men are allowed to be intellectual, it should be a minority, because the worth of a man lies in his mechanical/technical skills and his ability to drink and fight. A stereotype receding somewhat, but slowly – it’s still not commonplace for men to read for fun. At the same time, women (who are supposed to be well-read) aren’t prime intellectual material, because women. You know how we are.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:29 pm
I get that… I’m composing something but it’s going to take a while. 853 was what I could say off the top of my head.
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:31 pm
Improbable Joe, are you familiar with The Genderbread Person?
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:33 pm
Ogvorbis, Caine
Yeah, the virulent anti-intellectual vein of Heroic Artisan Masculinity. You seem to have summed up my ideas much better.
Must be the beer.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:35 pm
Perhaps there’s a natural predisposition (of varying intensity) to identify with and imitate one biological sex’s specific behaviors and traits vs. the other, but what is being imitated is culturally constructed?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:38 pm
Imma wait on SG.
moarscienceplz:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:38 pm
Well, yeah. It’s Dune! Sandworms – how much more Freudian can you get? (J/K!)
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:40 pm
Never mind, I’m going to walk away from this one…
Anyone got an onion ring recipe?
rq:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:43 pm
Anyway. I’ll wait for SGBM’s post, here or elsewhere, because I’m curious about the whole gender thing, too. I’ve always wanted to pin all of it down to social construct, but… But.
I’ll have a clearer mind in the morning.
*hugs*, a stack of beer, and best wishes for all those who need ‘em! Good night!
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:45 pm
IJoe, as I understand it – and, for the record, I am cis and comfortable describing myself as a woman – there are three facets:
(1) Sex. This is what is in your pants and DNA. Terms: man, woman.
(2) Gender identity. This is what is in your head. This is a psychological state related to who you feel that you are inside. Terms: female, male.
(3) Gender role. This comes from society. This is the societal messages that are subsequently internalized that dictate what is and is not the conduct associated with a given set of statuses from facets (1) and (2). Terms: masculine, feminine.
The majority of the population has a line that connects their sex to their gender identity. They can be said to be “cisgendered.”
A transgendered person (this is my understanding, I freely accept correction) is a person who has a conflict between facets (1) and (2) of their identity.
Radical feminism seeks to undo the third facet by smashing together the masculine and feminine roles and make all of the relevant roles freely available to all people, regardless of who they are.
TERF (trans-excluding radical feminism) is a subset of radical feminism that does not distinguish between facets (2) and (3), referring to both with the single term, “gender” (occasionally derisively spelled “jendah”). TERFs believe that with gender roles abolished, gender identity will follow and society will be left with a single class, “people.” There is a significant thread of sex-essentialism (i.e. a man IS x, a woman IS y) running through TERFism.
TFRF (trans-friendly radical feminism) is the contrary subset of radical feminism that does distinguish between gender identity and gender roles. TFRFs believe that with gender roles abolished, gender identity will remain in some form, but will probably look somewhat different (the “baggage” of gender roles having been stripped away), and that society will be left with two classes, “male people” and “female people,” but that the differences between the two classes will be recognized as being substantially less than the differences inside the classes. TFRFism tends to be dismissive of sex essentialism.
Both TERFs and TFRFs believe that in the revolutionized society, that sex differences will continue, and will still be important, but will be less important than new distinctions (for example, a triad of parent-of-dependent-child, parent-of-independent-child, nonparent roles).
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:47 pm
Whups, I didn’t see that SGBM was drafting something. :)
I look forward to reading what he has to say.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:53 pm
*too good a straight line*
Take a onion bell, and pull on the clapper.
*no, I won’t quit my day job*
moarscienceplz:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:53 pm
Yeah, me too. I guess why this issue is such a surprise to me might come down to my age. I’m 53, and there were a ton of books aimed at boys when I was one. Tom Swift, Jr., The Hardy Boys, ‘Brains’ Benton (a boy nerd scientist/detective).
Don’t get me wrong, I grew up in a very small town and there were PLENTY of Jocks, and also sons of farmers and ranchers who thought that books were simply a handy source for making spitballs, but I never got the feeling that books were “girly stuff”. But maybe things are different nowadays.
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:58 pm
Nerd…
Nah, it wasn’t that bad. Needs a little polishing up, but for an off-hand bit of snarkery it was a fair attempt. :)
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 5:58 pm
IJoe:
No, don’t do that and please, I’m begging, don’t start the recipe stuff again. You asked important questions and people are more than willing to answer and discuss.
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:00 pm
Esteleth @865, you left out (4) erotic attraction, but otherwise I think you’ve laid it out informatively.
–
As an aside, were it not for Pharyngula, I’d not have given these matters much thought, but I’ve refined my understanding over the years here.
(Because I like to argue, but I also like to be right)
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 6:03 pm
So we are all anticipating strange gods’ upcoming thoughts on the matter.
****
Related to this subject, if the socially created gender roles are eliminated, would cisgender necessarily disappear too? If _cis_ refers to one’s biological sex matching their gender identity and gender identities are social constructions, then eliminating those constructions would eliminate the need for terms like _cis_ or _trans_…right?
(I am still trying to understand all of this too, so if the boat isn’t too full, I will join Caine and Joe)
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:06 pm
Tony,
… and the pressure in ON!
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:06 pm
I was not discussing the sexual orientation axis, but yes. There is a fourth facet.
I also blurred the fact that there are people of all of the facets, who fit into neither set: the intersexed are intermediary along facet (1), for example.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:07 pm
Tony, I addressed that in my @865, if you like. :)
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:08 pm
Caine
I’ve got an onion and a gallon of oil and BossNurse is expecting me to do something with them in the next 90 minutes or so. An onion ring recipe would be pretty useful right now. The conversation will likely survive without me, and likely will do better without my input.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:09 pm
Haha! All this is just a response to just one sentence from Joe. But I guess I’ll put it out there and start reading what others have said:
+++++
So,
I think there are some trans people for whom we can say this is not accurate. The easiest data to point to is when trans identity coincides with what can be understood as an intersex condition in which the brain is more like most men’s brains or most women’s brains. This can result in a person being told “you are a [boy/man or girl/woman]” but thinking to themself, and maybe eventually expressing to others, “but I feel like a [girl/woman or boy/man].”
How does this result? AFAICT, this is not yet known to science. I once saw a commenter claim, without any supporting evidence, that the brain actually “keeps track” of being male or female. I think this simple notion is absurd, because there is no biological need for the brain to keep track of such, thus no reason to think such a module would have evolved (I’m not being overly adaptationist here; there’s no proposed spandrel either). I suspect the truth will be much more complex and intriguing.
But it doesn’t need to mean they’re being drawn to “masculinity” or “femininity.” A transman may prefer things which are socially gendered as feminine, or may have no particular preference either way; a transwoman may prefer things which are socially gendered as masculine, or may have no particular preference either way.
Note this doesn’t mean all trans people have intersex brains; I doubt they do. This is just one condition which has been studied a little bit and so is relatively easy to speak about.
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Kuiper-Belt:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:09 pm
In my view, masculine/feminine are mostly harmful constructs, but male/female is a biological thing. And like most biological concepts, male/female is a bit messy round the edges. I’d be fairly happy to go with the penis/vagina as the basic distinguishing factor, as long as that were understood to be an approximation and to include people who feel that they ought to have that kind of genitalia even if they physically have the other. (That understanding usually isn’t the case, so normally one needs to make more effort to specifically include trans people.)
I don’t find Joe’s question so hard to get: if we go full-on social constructivist, then why would anyone want to change sex? It’s not like it matters: girls should be free to climb trees and boys to play with dolls without having to have hormones and surgery! Isn’t changing sex just reinforcing the gender binary, and thus deeply anti-feminist?
This is partly where the transphobia of the old-school radfems comes from – coupled with the fact that most 70s/80s transwomen were heavily into performing femininity to patriarchal standards. (Not all, and not all by choice, of course.)
The problem here is the conflating of social femininity with physical femaleness (& masculinity/maleness) – gender & sex. And perhaps undervaluing the importance of the physical to people’s sense of bodily well-being. But it makes sense as a question, if you’re not used to picking these apart.
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:09 pm
PS
No, because of (2) in Esteleth’s above.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:12 pm
EEEEEEWWWWWWWWW!
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:13 pm
IJoe:
epicurious.com – there are half a fucking ton of recipe sites. There’s an excellent chance I might learn something here, so pardon my desire to do that rather than have to scroll past 150 food posts.
Do what you will.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:13 pm
Oohh, this sounds like a shut the fuck up and listen moment. I’ll be here sipping grog and making the Redhead’s dinner.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:16 pm
Alethea, related to the pronounced gender performance by transwomen is the fact that the powers that be – the ones whose signatures are required for access to hormones, surgery, and new ID documents – demanded (and still demand) it.
Stories of authorities refusing to sign off on a transwoman’s transition because she appeared at an appointment wearing pants are typical of this mentality – she wasn’t wearing a skirt, so therefore she wasn’t really a woman, because women wear skirts. Similar language surrounds makeup, hair styling, and other aspect of performative gender. Stories of transwomen being required to strip naked, and only getting her new ID when some random straight man scrutinizing her body feels a tingle in his loins are not as common as they once were, but they still exist. A transwoman not only had to be properly feminine, she had to be straight (i.e. male attracted), she had to have and want a “female” job, etc.
Given that background, transwomen performing an over-the-top femininity seems a bit more understandable.
michaeld:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:17 pm
Hmm, I think Alethea is closest to my current (as I’m still thinking these things over) thoughts. I don’t have a problem with gender identity or how one is most comfortable with ones body. I do have problems with gender roles which I think are mostly harmful. Related, I don’t think there’s right/wrong good/bad way to express ones gender.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:17 pm
Joe:
Recipe will be on Thunderdome momentarily.
I, too, am learning.
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:19 pm
Caine,
That was exactly the sort of furious, pissed-off response I was hoping to avoid.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:24 pm
Esteleth:
Fuck. Well, that answers for a lot. Thanks, Esteleth.
ChasCPeterson:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:27 pm
Some brain cells express sex-steroid receptors; that’s all that’s required to “keep track”.
Your claim is that there is no advantage in matching gonadal sex to anything about the brain?
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 6:27 pm
John:
You like to be right?
Pshaw! Like anyone will buy that :)
****
Joe:
I think Caine is correct. This is an important and interesting topic. It is entirely possible we can kindly discuss this in the Lounge. It’s not like the rules say we cannot discuss heavy subject matter.
Huh…I just realized that this area is the only one at Pharyngula where one should be mindful of tone.
****
Btw, I got a new/second job today. The resort I am currently at isn’t busy in the winter, so I am making no money (last paycheck for two weeks was $287). A family owned (both types of family) tex mex style restaurant called Cactus Flower is opening at the end of January on the Boardwalk on Pensacola Beach. The other location in town does very well and has lots of good word of mouth. They have 6 other stores which have been around long enough that they have staying power. Though this is winter, Pensacola Beach has a lot of people living on and around it, many of which are anticipating this restaurant opening. We have several seafood places, but not much else for variety. The owners are going to let me run the bar, make my own schedule, and pay me $8/hour on top of the money I will make in tips. I dearly hope this will be the beginning of a financial turn around for me. I have debtors calling and some stuff in collections. I cannot tell any of them when I can make a payment when I am struggling to pay rent. So…fingers crossed.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:28 pm
To try and expand a bit on Esteleth and John Morales: To eliminate gender roles does not mean to eliminate gender identities. It certainly makes them less important (generally thought of as a good thing in feminist circles), but not disappear. People will still notice that some people have bits poking out where others don’t, and that’s still going to be something you form some kind of identity from. Maybe not more important than blue eyes versus brown is today, but there will be something there in som form. The elimination if gender roles mean that there won’t be a pressure towards certain behaviours (for example walking in shoes that damage your back and makes you incapable of running from a threat) based on those bits.
There will also probably still be people who feel that their bits doesn’t match their own sense of self(ie trans people). Though, hopefully, without rigidly defined gender roles that won’t be a hardship like it is all too often today (see for example Esteleths example).
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:29 pm
Regarding this (paraphrase):
(1) Sex. Terms: man, woman.(2) Gender identity. Terms: female, male.
(3) Gender role. Terms: masculine, feminine.
Problem is most people use those terms interchangeably (and mostly not incorrectly according to ordinary language) and have only an inchoate concept of these three conceptual axes; they become confused when entering a discussion where they’re used to refer to those aspects specifically.
(Fine conceptual granularity leads to jargon)
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:30 pm
Yay! for the job, Tony. Tentacles crossed for you.
michaeld:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:30 pm
@883 Esteleth
Perfect examples of what I mean by there shouldn’t be a proper way to express ones gender.
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:34 pm
Sorry folks. I started to have what felt like the start of a panic attack at the thought of getting into a knock-down argument. I didn’t mean to suggest that no one else could or should discuss the topic, just that I’m personally… well, “afraid of getting yelled at” is pretty much the size of it.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:37 pm
Let’s talk about the finger and the moon.
The existence of mammary glands is an inherent biological fact.
The use of the word “femaleness” to refer to this, or to other biological facts, is contingent, not inherent. We do not necessarily need to conceptualize categories of “femaleness” or “maleness” at all.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:42 pm
Chas,
You’ve not grokked me, but after I posted, I did think I could have been clearer. Let me try that now.
What I meant to express was: I’ve seen it said that the brain keeps track of the information “this brain is female” or “this brain is male”, at a level that is either conscious or is available to be called upon by consciousness, and this is why a person has a gender identity.
I’ll leave it at this: I thought you knew me better. At least console me by saying you were surprised.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 6:43 pm
Caine:
Thank you!
****
John:
Much appreciated on the terminology. I have read about gender identity, but I still cannot completely grasp what it means. Hell, I cannot even articulate my confusion right. Perhaps if there were concrete examples of gender identity and gender roles, I could understand better. What does it mean to be male? What qualities does ‘masculine’ embody? Where and how do male and masculine differ?
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:46 pm
Not only that, Morales, but because the majority of the population doesn’t feel a conflict along their sex/gender identity/gender role triad, they dont fully grasp that these are different things.
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:48 pm
ॐ,
I raise you one Sapir-Whorf to your finger-moon: Where the norm is sexual dimorphism, it can be convenient to refer to the properties characteristic of each form with a single noun, and the moment it ceases to be a circumlocution and becomes a term such as “femaleness”, it becomes a de-facto category in normal language, and in turn affects the conceptual space of people thinking in that language.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:49 pm
I seem to remember previous posters (Cerberus?) suggesting strongly that an innate sense of a male or female body being appropriate was founded in proprioception, in the brain’s mental map of what the body consisted of and where things were. Anyone have any more information on that?
*continues reading*
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:52 pm
Given that infants have been recorded displaying distress when they find that they have or do not have a penis (and newly verbal children expressing that this presence/absence is wrong, even if they cannot fully articulate why), I’d give that theory some credence, Azkyroth.
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:53 pm
Tony,
There are informative links here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitioned#Transgender.2C_transsexual.2C_and_intersex_communities
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Kuiper-Belt:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:56 pm
@Esteleth: indeed, I am aware of that myself. Thanks for filling it out, though. Much was elided in that little “not all by choice” line.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 6:56 pm
John: I would not disagree, but that is not inherent; it remains contingent upon the existence of incentives which make the terminology convenient enough (and the relative lack of counter-incentives against such terminology — counter-incentives which could be constructed if sufficiently desired).
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:00 pm
Hell, isn’t that what we’re doing right now?
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:01 pm
But if that’s true, that’s “keeping track of body parts” not “keeping track of ‘being male’ or ‘being female’”.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:04 pm
SG:
Yes, that’s what the brain does. It has a map of where all the bits are supposed to be, whether they are there or not.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:05 pm
Ah, no, that is “my brain says that I am female, which means I should not have a penis, but I do” response.
A baby boy playing with his penis because it is there, or because he’s discovered that it feels nice when he rubs it, is quite different from a different child attempting to tear off their penis, because it does not belong.
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Kuiper-Belt:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:05 pm
I do not entirely like this. I rather prefer the simpler one
(1) Sex. Terms: man, woman. (adj. female, male.)
(2) Gender role. Terms: masculine, feminine.
Sex and gender identity can be the same thing as far as I’m concerned. I am not going to say that a transwoman is not a woman because her external biology is male. I don’t even think it’s right using “biological sex”, because your brain is part of your biology. (Much as the Vulcans among us may prefer otherwise.)
It would then be nice, while I’m being utopian to adopt at least one more sex category. Other, NA, mu, or maybe neither/both. Anything to increase the flexibility.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:07 pm
It would explain why certain anatomy feels appropriate, even if it’s not what’s actually there. It wouldn’t so much affect gender identity, though, except in socially mediated ways.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:10 pm
Does not follow.
I do not dispute that it is possible for the brain to expect to have certain body parts which are not there, and not expect to have body parts which are.
This is not identical to the brain keeping track of ‘being male’ or ‘being female’, which proprioception does not require.
Of course. I’m not sure what I said which gave you the impression I’d disagree with this.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:10 pm
Tony:
The specific contents are negotiable and culture-specific.
Identity deals with the individual’s sense of self (in this case based on a trait- the individuals experienced gender).
Roles deals with society’s expectations (always based on one or more traits, in this case the indivduals perceived gender.
So the difference between the male and the masculine I would say is the difference between internal experience and external expectations.
Example (partly charicature): I identify as male. As I am cis I’m usually also perceived as male. So there is no conflict of category between indentity and role based on gender. However, society expects that since I’m male I should like football and porno and books about war. I’m not too partial towards any of them, and they don’t figure strongly in my concept of maleness/masculinity.
This conflict can be resolved in a number of ways. I can try to renegotiate the masculine role to not include a fondness for those things(usually very difficult, but possible), I can fake it(leads to internal conflict), I can try to adopt another role (in this case, since there is a dualism – be perceived as feminine – leads yet again to internal conflict) or I can try to eliminate or minimise the importance of the role (in this case: adopt the radfem agenda).
That negotiation is a possibility is the reason both for local variance and variance over time. For instance before approximately 1940, the colour red and shades of it were seen in Europe as a royal and masculine colour, It was almost unthinkable to dress a girl in a shade of that colour – which includes pink. Little girls were usually dressed in baby blue.
Somewhere around WWII this flipped, and the result can be seen in sickly magenta and little girls bedrooms everywhere.
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:10 pm
ॐ,
Well, yes. But there they are, in all their historical glory and with all its associated baggage (e.g. literature). :|
(It’s a done deal, one has to deal)
–
But I note making new terms or changing old ones (e.g. transgender, gay) is quite possible, if the last century is anything to go by.
There’s no unassailable fortress. :)
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:11 pm
This, I agree with.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:14 pm
Erm. Sorry, SGBM, I think we were talking past each other.
A person’s psychological state, their comprehension of their gender identity, produces a map of “this is what my body should look like.” This includes a proprioception map. If one’s body fails to match, this produces a dissonance, and a dysphoria.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:14 pm
I wonder if there’s a point in drawing a distinction between “gender presentation” and “gender roles.” And a way to do so consistently. It would make a lot of sense of my own feelings, actually.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:15 pm
Bah! Too late it seems, maybe I ought to sleep now.
should read:
Somewhere around WWII this flipped, and the result can be seen in sickly magenta in toy stores and little girls bedrooms everywhere.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:18 pm
I believe that color thing came up in the ev-psych podcast. But yes, until about sixty years ago blue was a “female” color.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:18 pm
Tony (and others in the gender discussion since I’m dipping my oar in)
To expand on What Esteleth and others have been saying::
Sex
Has multiple possible meanings, but the most relevant one for this discussion is genitalia/gonads. Most people will develop one of penis+testes or vagina+uterus+ovaries. The latter is usually accompanied by breasts after puberty, and the former is usually not. Most people who have a penis have XY chromosomes. Most people who have a vagina have XX chromosomes. None of these things are absolutes, however. Generally speaking, people with penises are called boys/men, and people with vaginas are called girls/women.
gender identity
May be related to proprioception/body awareness in some fashion; usually the same as sex, above. In cases where it is not, this commonly manifests as a desire for some or all of the physical charateristics associated with another sex.
Examples would include a transman who looks in the mirror and thinks ‘ There should be a beard there. And what the hell are those things sticking out of my chest?’ (This is a paraphrase from conversations I’ve had with my husband, who is a trans man). A trans woman might have the opposite thoughts, for instance.
Gender Roles
Social constructs which attach certain social behaviors and characteristics to a particular sex. All culture that I’m aware of have created at least two such roles, one for men and one for women. Some cultures have others as well, into which they pigeonhole trans* and queer people. Examples from our culture would include “Men fix cars, love sports, and don’t talk about their feelings’ and ‘Women are homemakers, concerned with cleaning, cooking, and fashion.’ Just because a trans man wants to have a male body (see sex, above), that doesn’t mean he knows or cares about cars, or that he wants to play football, or whatever. Just because a cis man likes cooking and fashion doesn’t mean he’s really a transwoman, etc. However, these roles are strongly embedded enough in our culture that deviating from them will tend to get you socially (and sometimes physically) slapped down, much to the detriment of all the people who don’t conform for whatever reason.
sexual orientation
Generally relates to a mixture of sex and gender identity. There is sometimes some confusion engendered by deliberate performances of gender role, but AFAICT its mostly about gender identity. That is to say that straight men are usually attracted to both cis and trans women (although there’s a big problem due to cultural tropes that tend to cause them to lash out violently if they discover this fact), but not attracted to trans men. The confusion can occur with cases like drag queens, who are usually male in both sex and gender identity, but deliberately perform an exaggerated version of femininity. Straight men are often attracted to drag queens until they discover that the person wearing the dress is really a man (And I know the tropes about trans women being ‘really a man’; I’m not going into that right now, though, because I have a time limit.
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 4th, 2013 at 7:23 pm
Azkyroth
I seem to remember previous posters (Cerberus?) suggesting strongly that an innate sense of a male or female body being appropriate was founded in proprioception, in the brain’s mental map of what the body consisted of and where things were. Anyone have any more information on that?
Fascinating. I wonder if this could also account for a number of Furries reporting that they can feel their tail/ears/wings/other non-human appendages?
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:24 pm
Gender identity is the one I always have trouble wrapping my head around, because to a degree that depends weakly on the exact description, it is usually described in terms that have very little resonance with my actual experiences, in a way that’s often hard to talk about. >.>
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:25 pm
Dalillama:
This also highlights just how much of ‘femininity’ is in the trappings, rather than the person. So much of what people find themselves attracted to [in another person] has to do with the constructs of femininity and masculinity, rather than the person under all those trappings.
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:25 pm
[meta]
Dalillama, I think you’re opening but not closing your tags.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:27 pm
*lightbulb*
Is that possibly related to how people who are comfortably partnered feel safe not performing some aspect of gender?
allegro:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:32 pm
allegro:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:33 pm
Trying again:
Offering support for a human “mating dance” that ends once the selection is complete?
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:35 pm
Okay, this is what I think is probably wrong, because it’s unevidenced and functionally unnecessary for gender identity to develop before proprioception:
To expand on my #911 and #914:
Proprioception is a very low-level function of the brain. It’s reasonable to expect all vertebrates have it, indeed hard to imagine how they’d function without it.
There’s no reason to expect it to rely on high-level abstractions corresponding to language or proto-linguistic categorizations. Probably we should expect it not to rely on such, since it’s so low-level.
So, nobody should doubt that a tomcat experiences proprioception telling him where his penis is. This also suggests the possibility that another cat with a different brain experiences proprioception telling them that their penis is wrong, misplaced, or something like that. But in no case is there reason to suppose that this corresponds to the cat keeping track of the information “I am male” or “I am female”.
And there’s no reason to suppose that the human brain, unlike all other animal brains, has need to keep track of such information. Nor is there any proposal of why this module would have developed.
Attempting to expand on what Azkyroth said at #910:
If proprioception comes first, because it’s so low-level, then this would account for later development of gender identity. A small child knows that their body feels wrong, and then upon seeing a different body or hearing it described, they find that their mental model of that other body feels more right. I.e. they basically know what body parts their brain expects to have, and when they later learn [people of that sex] have [those body parts] they then understand “I am a [person of that sex]” or “I am supposed to be a [person of that sex]“.
Pteryxx:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:36 pm
personally I think so *cough* and I think it’s because proprioception is to some degree flexible; humans learn to extend their mental maps to include familiar manipulatable tools, like pencils, scalpels, hockey sticks, and cars. It makes sense that imagination and nonphysical components of identity could extend it also – imagination alone has been proven to function a lot like actual practice of physical tasks. No idea how much *measurable* change in proprioceptive mapping happens with furries, or whether any of it’s inborn (I’d guess not but who knows).
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:37 pm
Esteleth:
I can’t speak to others, but yes, that’s applicable to me.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:38 pm
Well (just thinking aloud here, there’s certainly one sanction less if you don’t conform to role. And negotiations with a concrete (and hopefully loving) partner is a lot easier than negotiations with an unknown future partner.
When you get the role of partner, the role of gender becomes less important. And while role expectations for society at large is still there – you got an ally if you manage to negotiate away the aspect of gender with your partner. It might even become important for you not to perform to the larger socitial role is you share a deviance from that role with your partner.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:39 pm
This is more or less what I’m thinking. Initially it could be sort of a “WEIRD GROWTH”/”WHERE IS MY” response, the same as with, say, an amputation or a tumor, and later it develops a deeper meaning through cultural channels?
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:42 pm
Hmm. Maybe.
(If only newborns could talk!)
I am not sure, but possibly.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:42 pm
Not for the same reason. It’s pretty obvious why humans would have brains expecting their genitalia to be of the other sex — because human embryos develop into sexed bodies.
Human embryos do not develop into anthropomorphic foxes, and so there won’t be an innate expectation of such. If a person thinks every day about what it would be like to have a tail, then perhaps they might train a portion of their brain to account for this automatically. But it would be learned, not innate.
*By all accounts, this is an extremely small subset of the furry population.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:47 pm
Going out on a really thin branched of far-fetched speculation from a position of ignorance:
Humans evolved from creatures with tails. Could there be some sort of individual atavism?
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:51 pm
Gnumann,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail#Human_tails
(not just cultural)
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:51 pm
But no such thing as vestigial wings. ;)
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 7:52 pm
Esteleth:
I don’t understand what you mean by ‘perform some aspect of gender’
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:55 pm
Tony @937, going to a girls’ party.
(That’s for girls!)
Pteryxx:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:56 pm
I’ve wondered about that. Smacks of evo psych but eh. Anyone for a Kickstarter for proprioception testing of furries? <_<
I'm also curious just how far imagination alone can take proprioception mapping. No way does furryness compare to gender dysphoria – but I've also read about claiming a strap-on as a cyborg penis to ease some lower-intensity need for the shape of one. (and experimented with similar… *coughs more*)
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:56 pm
Tony:
Does all the cooking. Does all the housework. Does the budget/bills. Does all the social hosting and other social obligations. Etc.
Pteryxx:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:59 pm
And as long as I’m embarrassing myself off-topic here, I’ll add that my critter-shape ‘map’ includes talons, which human lineage hasn’t had for longer than tails. *shrug*
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 7:59 pm
I know, but I wasn’t thinking of this. More of the other end (ie the brain), sort of a “brain memory” of a tail. (If I come of like a babbeling idiot here, it’s because I got no idea at all what I’m really talking about at all, just a vague flight of fancy).
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:01 pm
“Could”, but, note Pteryxx’s point about learned proprioception of hockey sticks, and if WMDKitty is characterizing them right, then we’re not just talking about reported tails, but also stuff like wings, and pointy ears on top of the head. “Learned by imagination” seems to account for all, without anything far-fetched, and so is favored by Ockham’s razor.
(If this comment seems late, it is, I was looking for a word I never found.)
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:03 pm
The stereotype of married women adopting shorter, lower-maintenance hairstyles might be a good concrete example?
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:04 pm
Not fully fulfilling the societally-prescribed role of gender. For example, a woman not wearing makeup or doing her hair.
The couple who wear sweatpants and don’t shave around each other.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 8:07 pm
Oh!
Ok.
Now I see that my parents blurred the lines between genders when raising me and my sister. I was taught how to cook, clean, handle the bills and other traditionally feminine (right word?) Duties. At the same time, I had little to no interest in sports and never developed a comptetitive streak (though not for lack of effort on the part of my dad).
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:09 pm
Tony
Hooraaaay for new job!!!
`-`-`-`-
Regarding terminology. I thought that man/woman was a term for describing gender identity. Otherwise “transwoman/transman” wouldn’t really make a lot of sense, would it? Similarly, I thought that male/female was the term describing XX or XY (for most people who have one or the other gene combo).
Pteryxx:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:10 pm
Couples may also perform societally-contraindicated gender roles for each other… such as trying on bras or pantyhose, vs. practicing shaving one’s face. (I was going to say ‘the other gender role’ but I know some lesbian and gay couples mess with gender expression play also.)
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 8:10 pm
Azkyroth:
I did not know that was a stereotype. Interesting.
****
Thanks, all, for the concrete examples.
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 4th, 2013 at 8:13 pm
pteryxx
You, too?
SGBM
I have no doubt that the brain is quite capable of creating such an illusion. The brain is a complex and amazing thing!
Buuuuut… I’ve had a lifetime of wondering just where the hell my tail and ears are — I can feel them, but they’re not there! I’ve come to accept that I have a human body, and I do enjoy the perks that come with (thumbs! language! brainpower!), but it still bothers me to no end that my tail is missing and my ears are inefficiently glued to the side of my head. And I still have to concentrate on acting within the commonly accepted parameters of human behavior, such as not growling at people.
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:15 pm
ॐ,
Psychosomatic?
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:18 pm
WMDKitty, that sounds like it could result from taking pretend-animal play very seriously as a child, no? Maybe you were very good at it.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:19 pm
Pteryxx, you are not embarrassing yourself.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:19 pm
John, no, it’s a word about when a hypothesis accounts for more of what it might be expected to account for than another hypothesis does.
I think it starts with “co”
MikeG:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:23 pm
Wow. This has become very interesting, and I don’t really have much to contribute, other than that i think sex and gender are kind of orthogonal, and important to understand as separate things. Sexuality and attraction are another axis. I have to read the thread again before I will have anything useful to say, because I am relatively unexposed to this in meatspace (not sure if that really makes a difference) though I have a trans* aquaintance, but he and I haven talked in years.
Actually, I don’t think I will have anything to say after I read again. I think this is a stfu and listen time. Thanks for the discussion. Please keep it going for uneducated folks like me.
I Joe: thanks for the question.
Pteryxx:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:24 pm
We were raised with animals, animal representations, and anthropomorphized animal characters though, right? Some of my critter traits go back to pre-language days, too, but how the heck could there be any innate mechanism accounting for such?
And while I’d jump at the chance to have animal-like body modifications if the biotech existed, I still don’t buy that any furries feel the level of intolerable dysphoria that having the wrong sex of body can cause. In my n=1 they’re roughly equal so I couldn’t say.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:24 pm
Tony:
Of course it is. Hair is a major marker of femininity. Long hair in particular. This is getting better, as there isn’t an automatic assumption of “dyke!” with short hair on a woman anymore, but there’s still a fair amount of that going around.
I don’t bother with make-up much at all, and haven’t done for decades. I can be so relaxed about that because I am partnered up.
Pteryxx:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:38 pm
sgbm: I gather that when most kids go through a dinosaur-fan phase, as I did, they imagine riding them or interacting with them or pretending to be one as a game, not literally living their lives as one. Most furries say they’ve experienced a very high degree of animal affinity from early childhood, or as long as they can remember. I don’t see a good way to parse out nature from culture in this, and it’s a huge topic… why do so many cultures have part-animal characters in the first place, for instance. But as best I can remember, I played as animals because that’s what felt right to do, and the focus and skill grew from that. I don’t feel particularly like a human, I never have, and from my POV it’s a very similar sensation to feeling of no particular gender.
I do hope *somebody* does some furry research one of these days.
The Mellow Monkey: Caerie:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:40 pm
That would make quite a bit of sense to me, particularly because it leaves things open for cultures which have third genders. Your sense of your body doesn’t match up with the physicality of it, therefore you know you’re a niizh manidoowag, or a hijra, or a waria, because this is how your culture describes your experience. I do wonder if I would have ended up identifying as a trans man if I hadn’t been aware of non-binary identities very early in life. But at a young age I knew that “neither/both” was an option.
John Morales:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:41 pm
To be slightly oblique: Pteryxx, do you think it’s true some people believe they’re abandoned aliens?
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:44 pm
Seconding MikeG.
This is an area I’ve just started educating myself about, and there’s still much I don’t understand, but this discussion has made things much clearer and helped me connect some of the dots in my reading.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:44 pm
If you read the women’s magazines and what they say in order to “keep your man,” a lot of what they say is the importance of continuing to perform gender.
Because once he realizes that you’re a person, he’ll leave you, or something, I guess.
mildlymagnificent:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:46 pm
But, but, but, … isn’t a lot of this discussion about “roles” really about the rigidity and enforcement of rigidity in those roles and expectations.
I’ve had several friends report their difficulties with their children while spending some time in America. Enforcement of expectations seems much more something or other?? heavy-handed maybe, in the US compared to Australia. I’ve got a terrific photo of my younger daughter with her two bestest friends at her childcare centre. They’d had a free go at the dressing up box, so there were two 3 year old girls fantastically draped with flowers and scarves and slopping around in high heeled cast off shoes either side of a 3 year old boy with a beaming smile sporting the prized bride’s veil. We all thought they were cute. But a friend who received a call from her child’s American daycare centre heard a shocked voice asking if she knew that her 3 year old had turned up in a dress!!! Her slightly snarky response was simply to check that it was the pink one because he’d been told that the blue one was dirty and had to be washed.
Others have reported similar incidents – some of which are about a very un-Australian prudishness about little kids being naked. (Though I suppose the more recent stuff about paedophiles everywhere has changed this.) We don’t see it so often nowadays because of skin cancer protection, but it’s always been treated as perfectly acceptable for littlies to strip off and just get in the water at the beach or a pool. Americans seem(ed) to be a bit shocked by this.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:47 pm
Caerie:
I didn’t know it at a young enough age, as I was kept from my father and his family. By the time I was 10 and knew for certain* that I had very definite feelings towards other girls, I had found out about two spirits and wasn’t as nearly anxed out as I might have been over it.
*As in, “wow, I’ve had these feelings for 4 or 5 years now, guess they aren’t going away.”
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:48 pm
Hey, it does happen : p
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:50 pm
Or perhaps more conspitorically: Once you realise you don’t have to perform femininty, you stop buying women’s mags.
(The ones in my neck of the woods at least are fairly toxic)
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:50 pm
Esteleth:
Right, because what attracted said man in the first place was how you used and worked the trappings of gender and if you relax that in favour of simply being who you are, you run the risk of losing them because you aren’t wrapping yourself in the same trappings anymore.
SC (Salty Current), OM:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:51 pm
I seem to “try” unconsciously to turn my ears, and I feel like there’s a fundamental dissonance when they don’t move – they should move! Is that movement in our evolutionary history? Even if it is, at this point I think it’d be far too complicated to figure out causes. Maybe I’ve just spent too much time around dogs and cats…
:)
Pteryxx:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:55 pm
JM, I don’t trust your question. At best I’m pretty damn sure people can work themselves into believing just about anything. Or thinking they believe just about anything, if you’re trying something fancy with what “true” and “believe” mean here. But I’m uncomfortable enough talking about furry identity in a gender discussion, especially when gender conformity’s been enforced through brainwashing and nonconsensual medicine. I don’t want to even get started comparing someone who believes they’re an alien with someone who believes they’ve been cured of teh gay.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:56 pm
Gnumann:
Again, this seems to be rather dependent on one having a partner who is happy with the person you are, and not the trappings. People who aren’t partnered and wish to be and those people who think and feel the trappings are essential to maintaining a relationship will keep buying into that crap, no matter how toxic.
The same goes for someone who is brought up to believe in traditional gender roles and expectations. People can believe in that shit, hard. They’ll stick with it their whole lives. The “traditional femininity/masculinity” gurus always pop up and they always find followers. Remember my mentioning Marabel Morgan in the other thread? There’s an example. Another one is the more recent The Rules. Basically the same claptrap in a new cover. “Women, be womanly!”
Fuck, I just remembered a long ago conversation with my ex. He told me he’d like it if I were more feminine.
The Mellow Monkey: Caerie:
January 4th, 2013 at 8:59 pm
Caine:
I have no specific recollection of when I learned about two spirits and all the possibilities. I assume I must have just absorbed it through osmosis at some point. In my case, I’d settled pretty happily into being in relationships with women and then, lo and behold, the AFAB person I’d fallen in love with came out as trans and began his transition.
It’s been at turns amusing and hurtful how this one little change has altered how many so-called friends view me.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:01 pm
Well, there doubtless are men who would leave a woman the instant she stops “taking care of herself.”
Because they’re sexist asshats.
mildlymagnificent:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:04 pm
I broke a 2 year old heart, quite unwittingly, when I did the sensible parent thing and explained the reality that she would grow up to be just like all the people she knew – so, no, she wouldn’t be flying around like Astroboy when she got just a bit bigger. She, in turn, conveyed this distressing news to her younger sister when the time came.
But both of ours were very imaginative. It never occurred to me that they were putting themselves quite so powerfully into these tv fantasies – I thought it was very like the stories they made up to include themselves in the books we read or to get their toys to do stuff.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:05 pm
Speaking of sexism, I just got my fire department ID for the year. It says FIREFIGHTER on it. I am toying with the idea of posting a pic to facebook and tagging the male cousins in it who goaded me about calling me a fireman. Just for the lulz.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:06 pm
Caerie:
That has to be eye-opening, to say the very least.
SC (Salty Current), OM:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:11 pm
So has species identity. (I’m not a furry, but I see no reason to draw a sharp line between “what makes a man” and “what makes a human.” I think the isms are closely linked.)
***
? (Granted, I haven’t read this yet.)
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:12 pm
SC
Well, there are muscles that move the ears around, although not very much, so I wouldn’t rule it out.
Caine
I was raised in a household where there was very little pressure to conform to gender expectations, and no homophobic BS that I can recall, so when I started having feelings for other guys too, I pretty much took it in stride. Similarly, my lack of ‘masculine’ behaviorism was never a problem at home, although my sister and I used to joke about how much more ‘manly ‘than me she was’ I realize that a lot of people have very different circumstances, though.
Caerie
I’ve seen that happen, and indeed gotten a limited amount of it myself, although not as much I suspect because a) everyone knew I was bi already, and b) L was already out as trans when we started dating.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:18 pm
SC:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 9:20 pm
I’ve wondered about a potential partner leaving me in the future if I ever decide to not work out as much as I do. I currently enjoy it for the health benefits and-I cannot lie-I like getting compliments (I think this is tied into my insecurity about my appearance; it’s an affirmation that I am a nice looking guy when I get compliments since I still wrestle with thinking I am unattractive; hell, part of the reason I stripped years ago was bc I mistakenly thought if enough people expressed attraction to me, that would mean I wasn’t ugly….needless to say, it didn’t work in the slightest). It seems a moot point for the foreseeable future, but I have thought of it.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:24 pm
Sorry for stepping away, I have discovered another “funny gif with captions” tumblr.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:24 pm
Tony:
Tom & Lorenzo talked about that once – saying they went through a muscle-y man phase, and yeah, the six pack looked great and all, but it was *serious hard work*, so they dropped it and decided to be happily a bit on the paunchy side. :D
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 9:30 pm
Hmmm, another thought related to gender–
There are activities that are considered masculine or feminine. Are there any that aren’t gendered? Or that cross both genders (is that asking the same thing)?
Paul K:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:30 pm
I’m learning so much here! I know I could go and do research on much of this elsewhere, but the back-and-forth between caring and careful people is so much more rewarding.
Caine, way back at 771:
I’m 52, but I have an eleven-year-old son. It’s helped that I’m also partnered up with someone where neither of us care to fit standard roles. There have been many times when our kid has forgotten the sex of one of his friends when telling us about some incident. Calling a girl he or or a boy she. Kids he’s known since pre-school. If we correct him, he doesn’t really care. He’ll just say ‘whatever.’
SC (Salty Current), OM:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:31 pm
So I just gave my best friend’s daughter The Magic of Reality.*
They already read the section on where the first humans came from (yes, it’s sexist). Her immediate responses: First, “So there aren’t any grown-ups.” She gets the great chain of life. That’s an insightful six year old. Second, she’s distressed because she doesn’t have a picture of “her fish” – her fish ancestor. Unbearably cute. Now we need a children’s version of Shubin’s book….
*Shut up. :) I don’t think I said I wasn’t buying anything by Dawkins, and even if I did… it’s a book.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:32 pm
Tony:
Eating?
Nope, that’s all too often gendered too.
SC (Salty Current), OM:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:36 pm
Thanks!
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:38 pm
Shitting?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:41 pm
SG:
Bingo! I think you got the one for sure non-gendered activity.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:43 pm
Hmmmm…
Walking gets gendered.
Hell, even sleeping gets gendered. I apparently sleep and snore like a man.
Breathing, maybe?
SC (Salty Current), OM:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:44 pm
Cooking and eating are ridiculously gendered.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:45 pm
JAL:
Yes, it does. Pretty much everything does.
mildlymagnificent:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:45 pm
Music!!
I realise some people will think some instruments are inappropriate for some children, but by and large music skills and performance are equally valued. Which may be ‘not at all’ in some groups.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:45 pm
angering
Paul K:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:47 pm
I don’t know. I’ve heard comments of surprise, maybe ‘joking’ but expressed just the same, when a woman left an unpleasant smell in the bathroom. Ladies, even your shit better smell like flowers!
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:47 pm
On second thought, I think the Charmin Ultra Strong toilet paper was advertised as being specifically for the male cartoon bear.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:48 pm
Rev. BDC:
Um…what? Could you clarify? Expand? Something?
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:48 pm
One of the greatest Miles (Well, Wayne Shorter) songs + George Benson
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:48 pm
*the adult male cartoon bear.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:49 pm
Humm….. I may have missed something.
Pteryxx:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:50 pm
…Don’t make me break out THE MAN TOILET story again, plz?
The Mellow Monkey: Caerie:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:50 pm
Yeah, reminders that women have digestive systems are seen as pretty horrifying in a lot of quarters. And women who enjoy potty humor are seen as “acting like a guy.”
SC (Salty Current), OM:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:52 pm
Nope.
Generally, (“feminine”) women aren’t expected to have bodily functions – it’s unladylike.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:53 pm
I think there’s particular ways that men are “supposed to” display anger, rather than other (supposedly feminine) ways.
Paul K:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:54 pm
I worked for years as a camp counselor, and I remember a group of boys, ten years old or so, who were dumbstruck when a girl passed gas. They were talking about it in the cabin when I came in, and were just shocked when I told them, yeah, its’ really true: girls do fart.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:55 pm
Paul:
SG:
Yeah, okay, it’s gendered too. On the subject of ads, there’s another one about toilet paper targeting what women are really concerned about – cleanliness.
Yeesh.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:57 pm
Breathing?
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 4th, 2013 at 9:58 pm
Oh, shitting gets gendered, too.
There’s this thing — I dunno if it rises to level of a societal gender expectation thing or not, though — there’s this thing where men are supposed to be Shameless Shitters, and women… well… we’re expected to be shameful shitters and hide even the thought that we do, in fact, shit. (And if we must entertain that thought, well, we must cloak it in euphemisms and never ever come out and say, “women poop too.”)
(A Shameless Shitter is one who does not cough to conceal noises and does not worry about their odors or who can smell or hear what they’re doing in the loo, whether its a public restroom, the privacy of one’s own home, or any loo in between.)
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:59 pm
SG:
Same things go for women – there are supposedly acceptable ways for a woman to express anger, although they really, really shouldn’t in the first place.
Paul K:
January 4th, 2013 at 9:59 pm
I don’t care about cleanliness. What manly man even needs toilet paper?
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:00 pm
Oh, I hate that ad. I’m pretty sure there’s something along the lines of “There’s no such thing as too soft” being said as well.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:00 pm
Rev. BDC:
I’m not even sure about that one. I remember being taught in finishing school that a lady should never breathe through her mouth and should always breathe quietly.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 10:02 pm
Wait…eating amd walking are gendered??!!
Paul K:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:04 pm
Caine, maybe you’ve discussed this before but: you went to finishing school?
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:06 pm
Fraid not; I see jokes occasionally about how supposedly “girls don’t poop.”
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:06 pm
Tony:
Fuck yes. What does a ManlyMan™ eat? Steak and potatoes! What does a WomanlyWoman™ eat? Salad and fruit. And not too much of it, either!*
Walking is intensely gendered and I won’t even get into the shoe differences. Walking was the one thing I kept getting scolded over in finishing school – we had been taught how to measure the appropriate foot to foot distance for ourselves and to always walk in a ladylike manner. Striding was masculine. I’m a strider.
*I also remember being taught how to take ladylike bites and to always leave the table hungry. It’s not feminine to stuff yourself.
The Mellow Monkey: Caerie:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:07 pm
Small threadrupt: Does anyone here know what the adult children of anti-vaxxers should do when they grow up and want to engage in a little herd immunity? Obviously, at this point any vaccine schedule no longer applies, so…it just seems incredibly daunting to try to make up for all that lost time now.
And then there’s this weird guilt on top of it, like I’m betraying my mother. Bah.
SC (Salty Current), OM:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:07 pm
:) (I admit that I want to downvote it, just ’cause no one has. Strange impulse.)
***
Think about it, though Even leaving aside sleep, aren’t there kinds of breathing considered masculine and feminine?
Pteryxx:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:07 pm
…given Caine, the image in my head was of a red-hot forged blade being quenched in water to temper it.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 10:08 pm
Pteryxx:
Soooooo, about that man toilet story..?
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:08 pm
Yes. Ladies eat all dainty and neat and good foods and hardly anything at all usually. Ladies walk gracefully, or sexually with swinging hips and the only noise comes from the tap of high heels. No stomps, storming or striding around like a bull with your head down. Practice with a book on your head to see how much this sucks.
The Mellow Monkey: Caerie:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:10 pm
Caine:
Don’t forget yogurt!
Yogurt is intensely gendered, bizarrely.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:10 pm
Paul:
Yes. And yes, I’m that old. (55). I was supposed to go twice. I started finishing school when I was 10. Maybe 11. I don’t really remember anymore. That went on for two years. I was also looking at getting sent off to a private three year finishing school once I was done with high school. However, I graduated early and got the fuck out of the family house and away from my family at 17.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:12 pm
Pteryxx:
Didn’t work. I know how to be a lady, I choose not to be one.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:14 pm
Caerie:
Yes, it is. To a disconcerting and uncomfortable point, at least in the U.S. When it comes to Chez Caine, it’s Mister who eats the stuff. I want nothing to do with it.
Paul K:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:14 pm
Wow, JAL, that brought back a memory of walking with a book on my head as a kid, competing with my sister. We saw someone doing it in a Warner Bros cartoon, I think. I was way better than her. I’m pretty sure one of my brothers punched me. I had nine, and they were always punching me, so it’s a safe bet.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 10:15 pm
OMG! You people are so smart. Someone has got to find a non gendered activity (where is Louis when we need him?)
Art?
Skydiving?
Skiing?
Studying?
michaeld:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:15 pm
@Mellow monkey.
My advice go take the problem to a GP they’ll probably work out a way to get them all caught up.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:17 pm
JAL:
Oh fuck yes, I remember that. Posture, ladies, posture! We were placed in fencing class to improve posture and gracefulness.
Paul K:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:17 pm
Does Louis skydive? (Sorry, but it seemed necessary.)
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 10:18 pm
Damn. I think this has been one of the most informative/enlightening Lounge threads I have seen.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:19 pm
Tony:
Absolutely not. Gendered to the hilt.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:19 pm
I drag my feet, have my dead down as much as possible and always try to do something with one hand – putting them in pockets, holding something, purse straps, smoking. Walking with both arms swinging feels so weird unless I’m carrying something in both hands.
So, basically, in the exact opposite way my military father tried to train me. Of course, I was keeping my head down since before I can remember but I def. remember trying to be as quiet as possible before the “soldier training” attempt kicked it. After that, I just said fuck it. Now walking without shuffling is a very hard thing to do and I have to think about it.
SC (Salty Current), OM:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:21 pm
Talk to your doctor.
***
No, no, no, no.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 10:21 pm
Writing?
Bicycling?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:25 pm
Tony:
*Snorts* Oh, please. Absolutely fucking gendered. Started out gendered. Remains gendered. Gets toxically gendered when there’s a motor on the bike. Ever hear of “riding bitch”?
Nope.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 10:26 pm
Ok, I give up.
::slumps off with pouty face::
The Mellow Monkey: Caerie:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:27 pm
michaeld:
Yeah, I’ll have to do that. I just wish there was some sort of “What to Expect When You’ve Escaped from Anti-Vaxxers” type briefer.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 10:29 pm
SC:
Can you elaborate on the gendered nature of studying?
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 10:30 pm
Wait..I have it!
Watching movies!
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:30 pm
I’ll give it one more shot:
going to the dentist?
(I don’t have any strong expectation that this one will hold up, but off the top of my head I can’t think of a counterexample.)
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:35 pm
Well, there’s some that goes “guys don’t but girls do.” But even when guys are allowed/expected to study the study habits are suppose to be different from girls. Girls do the multi-colored highlighters with everything color coded. Guys are sloppy note takers while girls are neat. Guys are the ones that do late last minute cramming while girls plan. Girls do gossiping study groups while guys are snarfing pizzas and playing games during their study groups.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:38 pm
Hmm..
There’s two ways I’ve seen people react to it.
Women go, even for just check ups, because they organize/plan ahead and men only go in an emergency.
Or there’s the women don’t need to go because they take care of themselves better. Manly men doing stupid dangerous work/play and not heeding their nagging wife to brush their teeth are the ones that need a dentist. Of course, those manly men are never afraid to go – they just don’t need to or can’t go.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:41 pm
Tony:
Excuse me?
Guy movies.
Chick flicks.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:41 pm
Girls cover their eyes and hide and cringe in fear to strong manly man boyfriends who do none of those things. Women are usually allowed and expected to react emotionally, while men are not, especially for crying. And of course, if there’s snacking while watching the rules of eating apply.
Hell, just how one sits to do anything, including watching a movie is gendered.
SC (Salty Current), OM:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:41 pm
Tony, I don’t mean to be unkind, but could you try to think these through yourself before tossing them out there and expecting others to do your work for you?
***
Leaving aside how often men and women respectively go and for what purposes… Who’s the dentist? And who’s the dental hygienist?*
*This latter is one of the most gender-segregated occupations in the US. Even assuming every other aspect of a dentist visit is ungendered, this is a powerful reminder of gender roles.
The Mellow Monkey: Caerie:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:42 pm
SG:
Note who the commercial is specifically targeted to, with a sign and everything: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhGynsIVudM
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:43 pm
SG:
Nope. There’s still the masculine expectation to get by with as little pain medication as possible, hurry up, gotta get back to work, all that. There’s also the sense that women go because vanity, men go because need.
Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:46 pm
Android app fail: “Pizza Maker is a cooking game for girls and kids.”
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:47 pm
Interrupts current discussion with a Llewelly sighting!
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:48 pm
Josh:
Jesus. Fucking. Christ.
Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:48 pm
Weirdly in the US. Much of the rest of the world understands that plain yogurt is also a savory cooking ingredient, not just a “Special Gift from you to you” when you’re feeling one of those “I want to indulge” moments in front of a fireplace while hubby is out.
SC (Salty Current), OM:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:50 pm
Maybe it’s for girls and goats.
Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:51 pm
Fun for a girl or a goat!
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 4th, 2013 at 10:53 pm
Strong for a goat but made for a woman!
SC (Salty Current), OM:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:54 pm
Yes, it’s made from milk.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:54 pm
For girls and their kids.
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:55 pm
Yogurt is a weird case… it is intensely gendered, and then also infantilized thanks to the existence of “Go-gurt.”
Yogurt isn’t even a food anymore in America. It is almost exclusively marketed as a “snack” in tiny little cups along with heavily-processed fruit-like goop in the bottom of the cup. They’ve sucked all of the good out of it, while pretending that a 60-calorie cup o’ nothing is a magical indulgence for America’s women. And occasionally men, but in the commercials they always make the man look foolish… no surprise there.
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 4th, 2013 at 10:56 pm
Saw a sign at a salvage store advertizing that they sell “INSULTED WIRING!”
michaeld:
January 4th, 2013 at 10:56 pm
@Mellow Monkey: Caerie
“What to Expect When You’ve Escaped from Anti-Vaxxers”
Couple dozen needles over a year or two? That’s my guess ;p
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:00 pm
IJoe:
No, it really isn’t weird at all. See previous comments on the nature of gendered eating. In that context, it makes perfect sense. It fulfills the requirements for ladylike eating, won’t satisfy hunger in approved fashion and won’t make you all uglified (fat).
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 11:08 pm
Caine @1042:
I was thinking more about the process of watching movies, but JAL dashed that to bits.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:13 pm
Tony:
The whole “guy movies” “chick flicks” extends into the watching of said movies.
michaeld:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:19 pm
I’d have gone for some sort of persistent unconscious state Tony…. being in a coma is probably close as you can get to genderless… though it maybe stretching the meaning of action.
Josh, Exasperated SpokesGay:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:20 pm
Nope. Lady comas require full makeup and no sweaty hair. It’s like birthing.
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:24 pm
Caine:
“Weird” wasn’t the right word. Maybe “ultimate” would be better… yogurt is a food that has transcended food and has become some other weird thing… especially Activia, which seems to be promising a semi-laxative negative calorie eating disorder thing.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:26 pm
IJoe:
Yeah, that caters to the new agey nonsense along with being yet another point in the “yes, shitting is gendered” category.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:30 pm
There’s always this mystical glow from giving birth specifically but women in general are just suppose to glow.
How the fuck did women glow before makeup?
I haven’t and will never glow. If I’m suppose to give off a form of light, I’m going to be a spotlight to single out douchebags.
Lofty:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:31 pm
I never ate yoghurt (pronounced with an angry falsetto whine) as a young male until I discovered a local speciality dairy makes the most yummy blueberry yoghurt. Now I haz a sad when it’s out of stock at the supermarket. Yes, eating is/was as gendered as anything else. I’m glad to enjoy all sorts of things in my middle age that were considered off-limits to me as a youngster. Decent theatre, for one.
Markita Lynda—threadrupt:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:32 pm
JAL! I mislaid my Goodreads password and couldn’t send you a message, but I found it again. Are you somewhere where you can receive a few books?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:35 pm
JAL:
There’s always been cosmetics. At least from the time there was any sort of record keeping. There are ancient Egyptian papyruses detailing how to make cosmetics, hair dye, and contraceptives. Hell, make-up is mentioned in the bible, more than once.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:35 pm
Markita! I sure can accept books where I’m at. I haven’t moved and plans to move are stalled in negotiations with the parents. Tomorrow is the day we revisit this issue.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:36 pm
mildlymagnificent
Nope. Some instruments are ‘ladylike’, and even on those ones until very recently female musicians didn’t pass auditions for professional orchestras because their playing wasn’t ‘firm’ or ‘strong’ enough. The only reason this changed it because of the practice of putting a screen between the judges and the applicant so they couldn’t see who was playing (a practice that was introduced for exactly this reason). Also see the story of the trombonist earlier in this thread.
cicely (The Less Sore of Two Measles):
January 4th, 2013 at 11:37 pm
Kinda skimming….
-
Yes. They managed to pull off that rarest of beasts, the Amicable Divorce, and are going to try to stay friends, which means she’s not entirely lost; she’s still got a character in the Game, for instance. But since she’s having to support herself, now, and didn’t get the chance to finish her college course that she’d laid out, she’s basically got a high school diploma to work with. Her work hours are likely, eventually, to mean that she won’t be able to play.
-
*hug* for Weed Monkey. I’m glad that there are no serious long-term effects expected.
Unfortunately, we are all presumed mortal, until proven otherwise.
-
rq: Buying a house means you can plant the whole yard in catnip if you want to, and then watch the neighborhood cats roll around in it.
:)
-
May BossNurse’s recovery from the plague continue unabated.
-
O-o
Also…the 1790s? Damn, you’re old!
:D
-
Tony, all tentacles crossed on behalf of your new job.
-
Not sure if it’s what you mean, Tony, and what I have is anecdata (let me show you it!); but there are activities that are, in general, perceived as stereotypically gendered activities—cooking, or playing the flute come to mind—except where status becomes involved; where women cook for their families, but “great chefs” are men; if you have 20 flutists in high school or college, 18 or 19 of them will be female—but the top-of-the-line, world-renowned professionals are male.
-
What? Another page?!?
*sigh*
All this heavy-duty, plague-infected sleeping isn’t going to help me keep up….
-
chigau (違う):
January 4th, 2013 at 11:37 pm
oh dear
I missed some stuff.
here are some tunes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEwsX_7c52k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6W_a2U-bIU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnBwm590S9k
I trust to the Demon Preview.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:38 pm
Oh, duh! I should’ve remembered that. I remember learning that when I read about Cleopatra and the hot stick-like things (? memory is failing here) they heated up to use for applying eyeliner. I kept thinking OUCH.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:43 pm
This is very true. Because, as with the firefighter couple that Portia(?) (Socio-Gen? I’m not sure which firefighter story this is and there’s three pages of thread to hunt through.) mentioned earlier, the men are offered these positions, and women who ask for them still don’t get them.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:45 pm
JAL, kohl.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:47 pm
Me:
Uh, for clarity I should have included I was ten at the time and makeup being that old was mind blowing. I thought I would never forget fact. I haven’t forgotten it, I’ve just learned a whole lot more since then.
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 4th, 2013 at 11:50 pm
I don’t know if it’s cause I’m drunk now or if the writings gotten better but I am actually enjoying these last two X-Files partner and I have watched tonight.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 4th, 2013 at 11:50 pm
cicely:
Yeah, pahe 2 is the gender discussion thread. Grab some popcorn. It really is interesting.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:50 pm
Ah! Thanks.
-
(I didn’t see this post before my last comment. )
Improbable Joe:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:54 pm
Once you see it, you can never unsee it…
Paul K:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:58 pm
Caine, thanks for the link on kohl. I’m always learning. It’s still used, and, ugh, is mostly made of lead sulfide.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 5th, 2013 at 12:08 am
I’m getting the impression that these days kohl is not applied hot. I’m seeing sources that say to apply it at room temperature or even straight out of the fridge.
Still, what Paul said.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 5th, 2013 at 12:12 am
Yeah, now I’m wondering if my memory is wrong or the book was. I mean it was fiction but historical fiction should be well researched.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 12:14 am
Paul:
Yes. Lead was a common ingredient in cosmetics. So were things like bi-chloride of mercury. I have a lot of old ‘household’ books and they all contain recipes for cosmetics using such ingredients. Lead was also popular in many health remedies, such as this one:
Eye-Water for Weak and Inflamed Eyes
Sugar of lead, 5 grains; sulphate of zinc, 5 grains; rose water, 2 ounces; morpine, 1 grain.
That one is from the mid 1800s.
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 5th, 2013 at 12:15 am
glowing
is not something you’ll ever catch me doing. Basking, relaxing, in a cuddle-puddle (OMCC, cuddle puddles!), occasionally radiating an aura of evil and mischief, yes. But never “glowing”.
Then again, aside from having hair down to there, I’m not what you’d call “girly” or particularly “feminine”. I’ve always been a bit of a tomboy, and prefer “guy things” (gaming, action-y movies, “crude” comedy), but it doesn’t make me any less a woman. Neither does the fact that I fart, burp, scratch myself in awkward places, or like beer and pizza.
Aaaand I have no fucking clue where I was going with that.
Sorry.
I’m stoned.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 5th, 2013 at 12:27 am
Other things:
After 6 days without hot water, it finally was fixed a couple of hours ago. Only to find out our roof leaks from the upstairs apartment. This of course was after the workers left and they were there just to fix the water heater anyways. There’s a bucket under it and the Landlord wasn’t pleased to have me bother her. She sucks as a landlord. Flexible on rent and sketchy on everything else. Like with the part needed for the water heater, she told us on the 1st the delivery for the part would come that day. Find out later, she knew it wouldn’t be because she wouldn’t pay extra out of pocket and wait for reimbursement from the property owner.
————-
For those (I know at least one person, though I can’t remember who) that like my Kindle Buffet link, here’s Kindle Social, which does daily spotlights and categories for easier searching. Kindle Social deals with books that are just free all the time (unlike Kindle Buffet) and special time limited offers (like Kindle Buffet).
—————–
Also, I’ve probably missed where this was discussed before, but why is the link preview so weird? I hope that’s fixed, it’s so annoying and totally messes everything up.
*crossed fingers* Hope it comes out all right.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 5th, 2013 at 12:40 am
JAL, your memory’s not wrong. Here is someone mentioning hot sticks. But I have no idea if this is accurate.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 5th, 2013 at 12:44 am
WMDKitty:
You cracked me up. I am jealous you are high. Hopefully this time nect month I can afford some herb….
****
Hey, what about drugs?
Coke?
Marijuana?
Alcohol?
Are they gendered?
(Damn, can’t let this go)
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Kuiper-Belt:
January 5th, 2013 at 12:47 am
Tony, I really can’t think of a single thing. You’re just now taking the red pill?
Alcohol – OMG yes. You’re a bartender – you should know about girly-frou-frou drinks! Beer & whisky is for MEN, sweet stuff and low-cal stuff etc for women. And let’s not go from perceptions to what can happen when a woman is drunk/stoned in public.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 5th, 2013 at 12:50 am
Tony,
http://boy.urbanup.com/1451116
http://girl.urbanup.com/1074562
John Morales:
January 5th, 2013 at 12:50 am
Death.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 12:50 am
Tony, yes, I think drugs can be gendered too – the first thing that comes to mind is the addition of whore to any drug a woman might be doing. As for alcohol, oh yes. Just think – drunken slut, drunk bimbos, etc. (We had a fine example of a sexist asshole going on about drunk bimbos in the gang rape thread.) [Raging Bee's comments]
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 5th, 2013 at 12:55 am
Egyptian book of the dead:
“A man says this speech when he is pure, clean, dressed in fresh clothes, shod in white sandals, painted with eye-paint, anointed with the finest oil of myrrh.”
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Kuiper-Belt:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:00 am
While you’re at it, don’t think for a second about exercise. Men muscle up, ladies don’t lift heavy, muscles on a woman are ugly… but look at this for a twist: http://jezebel.com/5973202/mac-put-a-female-bodybuilder-in-a-makeup-ad-and-its-beautiful
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 5th, 2013 at 1:02 am
Godsdammit. I am also having this discussion with T, who took several gender studies and/or psychology courses in college. Everything I come up with is gendered.
Joe, I blame you :)
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Kuiper-Belt:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:03 am
John: http://www.whiteladyfunerals.com.au/
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Kuiper-Belt:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:05 am
http://www.peoplesflowernetwork.com/blog/post.cfm/funeral-flowers-for-men
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 5th, 2013 at 1:09 am
Tony
I can’t speak for the other drugs. My experience has been that most users are male, but you run into “stoner chicks” fairly frequently. I haven’t noticed a huge amount of judgement or specific condemnation for being female and enjoying the herb, but it could be that I’m not noticing what’s right in front of me. Well… there was that one black guy that was impressed that the little white girl could hold that much smoke. *shrugs*
It’s probably safe to assume that sexism pervades all aspects of society, including drug culture.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:17 am
On my way home today, my increasingly deformed rear wheel broke off my rear shifter (or something did, and I know it’s been catching occasionally), rendering my bike unridable. I carried it home, and now I get to spend tomorrow trying to figure out what I can do to fix it. I am very tired now, and depressed. I’m going to go lie down now, and try not to think for a while.
strange gods before me ॐ:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:21 am
I’m pretty sure this is Rebecca Watson’s fault, if anything is.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 5th, 2013 at 1:23 am
I have it!
Even T has no refutation—-sleeping!
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 5th, 2013 at 1:25 am
Rebecca is only responsible for the influence of sexism in American culture. Seeing as gendered activities are unrelated to sexism…no, I really cannot finish that.
Josh, Official SpokesGay:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:29 am
All my good e-cigarette hardware and juice has failed. I’ve had to resort to back-up devices which I’m very much not happy about. Grr.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:29 am
Bzzzt! Brought up on page 2. It is.
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:42 am
Personal:
Oh! Another thing, when mom brought the Little One back home to day she informed me on more of Step-dad’s stupidity. He wants their female cat to have a litter of kittens first before getting neutered. It’ll make her more mother-y and cuddle-y and shit. Mom is against this. I literally fucking facepalmed. I appreciate the warning, which is actually so I don’t flip in front of him. My discovery and opinion of his thoughts/actions previously has been badly received by him so it’s just better that I can prepare myself.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:44 am
Tony:
Nope. We covered that one under breathing.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 5th, 2013 at 1:53 am
JAL:
Does he have any plan for what to do with alitter of kittens?
athyco:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:00 am
Wow, JAL. Is that evolutionary psychology for cats now? Even the queens can’t catch a break!
Besides, my bestest cuddle buddy kitteh was a tom.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:19 am
I’m back to Manhood in America and I’m now reading about the mid-nineteenth century obsession with sexual self control and came across spermatic economy.
*The Horrors of the Half-Known Life: Male Attitudes Toward Women and Sexuality in Nineteenth-Century America, G.J. Barker-Benfield
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:34 am
As people here have shown, pretty much anything gets gendered. I can’t personally think of a thing that’s immune to gendering.
What you have to keep in mind though is that it’s culture specific. Pharyngula culture will hopefully (at least I hope so) gender less things than a YouTube comment field. That for instance the work many here have done on gendered slurs. People have over some time negotiated that slurs should not be gendered here. So if you ask “are slurs gendered” the answer would depend on whether the question relates to 1: Here and now in this setting, 2: Most commonly/society at large, 3: Ever.
In this case it’s 1: No, 2: Yes, 3: Yes. And in respect to gendering of things in general the answer to 3 is always yes. There is no thing(that’s reasonably cross cultural) that hasn’t been gendered somewhere sometime.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:40 am
Previous plan didn’t work. Now seeking other distractions.
Caine
A very similar superstition is found in Taoism.
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 5th, 2013 at 2:49 am
G’night, Pharyngula.
John Morales:
January 5th, 2013 at 3:13 am
Dalillama, coitus reservatus.
Alethea H. "Crocoduck" Kuiper-Belt:
January 5th, 2013 at 3:19 am
Paging mildlymagnificent! Drop me an email at cajela at the gmail if you would like to have lunch or coffee in a couple of weeks.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 3:20 am
Good morning and may I say, I have never yet had such an educational morning!
Some of the discussion was familiar to me, most of it wasn’t – thanks, Joe, for the question!
JAL
@ 1066 – I second that kind of a spotlight.
Tony
I think you’re stuck living in a totally gendered world. Sadly, as are we all.
Caine
Thanks for the two-spirit link (that was you, right?)!
+++
I had some other things I wanted to say, but I’ve since forgotten them (long thread).
Oh, hair – I am probably soon going to fall into the married-woman=short-hair bit, because my hair will finally be long enough to donate. When my sister cut my hair, I never really thought about what it looked like and more-or-less hated it. Since I’ve started getting it professionally cut (due to absence of sister – overseas), I’ve gotten comments about how it has great colour and the hair dresser is always surprised I’ve never had it dyed or otherwise altered. So I decided that, since it’s already nearly long enough, to grow it out that extra little bit and donate it.
Now I just have to figure out how to donate it. /random story
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 5th, 2013 at 3:33 am
Radium.
John Morales:
January 5th, 2013 at 3:48 am
Women do glow.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:12 am
John Morales
Link?
Azkyroth
Would uranium be a gender-neutral radioactive mineral? In my mind, radium is too close to radfem.
John Morales:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:18 am
rq, link.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:36 am
John Morales
Oh but that means men glow, too. So technically glowing is an ungendered ‘activity’. Yes? :)
Pteryxx:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:49 am
Alethea:
THANK YOU. I have to recalibrate my mind about the dress etc, but DEM ARMS. *swoons* (Also, the heck with Vogue, linked in that article… female athletes are functional, that’s why they’re athletes!)
Beatrice:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:31 am
You’ve been busy tonight!
It was all a very interesting and educational read. Thank you.
Katherine Lorraine, Chaton de la Mort:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:03 am
For the curious – and this is gonna be portcullised soon:
Kat is at MAGFest. There is no decent Internet connection there cause a couple thousand geeks all using their 4G connections murders the signal. It’s super-fun, but also super-exhausting.
John Morales:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:06 am
rq,
Yes. :)
FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker):
January 5th, 2013 at 6:49 am
Dalilama @1100: I own a bike store and once had the very best job of teaching people how to fix bikes. If there’s anything I can do to help please drop me a line coelecanth28, the googlingator’s mail thingy.
FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker):
January 5th, 2013 at 6:52 am
Shit spelled the nym wrong: That’d be Dalillama in my 1126.
mildlymagnificent:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:57 am
alethea. Message sent – and hasn’t reappeared as an abject failure.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:58 am
FossilFishy
How’s the
houseshed? :)SC (Salty Current), OM:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:02 am
Ha! I thought that was going to be some sort of parody site. I can’t believe it’s actually called White Lady Funerals.
FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker):
January 5th, 2013 at 7:09 am
Hey rq. Unchanged from the last report. But really, if your going to have a third of a shed having the north-west third, which is obviously the most important third, is good.
It’s been hot here, really, really hot. Plus 40 and above and the wind’s been blowing. I’m pretty sure there’s OH&S rules about when they can work in the heat.
It feels like the run up to the Black Saturday bushfires, our section of which came 3K from my place, took out 8 houses and killed two people. I’m having to deliberately stop myself from checking the bushfire website every 5 minutes.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:16 am
With that heat, I was going to ask – how are the bushfires this year? :/ I haven’t heard much from my cousins yet, but they usually hit around this time of year (the bushfires, not my cousins).
And I should think there are rules about working in such heat, over 40? Yeow. Is it humid, as well? As a Canadian, I sympathise with the inability to withstand heat.
(Although, at that temperature, nothing is soothing – especially the wind. Driving across Australia was the first time my dad acknowledged the usefulness of air conditioning. At 39 degrees, the wind blowing through the window did not have a cooling effect…)
AshPlant:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:24 am
Well, thanks again, Horde, for another eye-opening
W
T
F
moment. It was the yoghurt that did it. I read that and I thought “holy shit. Yoghurt really is gendered. Merciful buggery, it is so gendered. How is that possible? It’s just sort of…like, wet cheese!” Now I’ve been racking my brains for the past hour trying to outsmart y’all on the gendered activities front, just in the sort of residual hope that that was even possible, and I can’t.
I thought I could gotcha with ‘smoking’, but then I remembered that I once got told I held my cigarette ‘like a girl’ (wedged between fore-and mid-finger rather than held between those two and the thumb, apparently). So yeah, the rabbit hole goes all the way down and you helped me see that.
You know when you talk about convincing the fringes, waverers and lurkers? Hi. Please keep going.
FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker):
January 5th, 2013 at 7:31 am
Yup, there’s even studies that show that above 30 I think, having a fan blowing on you just speeds dehydration rather than cooling you off.
We had a wave of thunderstorms roll through in the late afternoon. They started a couple of grassfires and at last count 4 bush fires, all of which are now controlled or contained. There are some very tired people out there who have my profound gratitude.
I heard that Tasmania has been copping it pretty badly with the bushfires, but here in Victoria it hasn’t been too bad yet. There’s another week or so of this weather predicted, I’m pretty nervous about it.
And that said, I must to bed. Mrs. Fishy and the Small Fry are asleep outside in the tent. I declined because I thought there was no way I was going to get a good night sleep crammed in there with them. On the other hand it’s still 28 in here. It’s a tough call, a big comfy too hot bed all to myself or a cool, cramped therma-rest…. I think I won’t disturb them, that way at least 2/3 of Team Fishy will be assured of a good sleep.
Night.
mildlymagnificent:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:31 am
Bushfires? Tasmania’s pretty much on fire across the south except in Hobart itself. They had to rescue people by sea from that little peninsula appendix thingie because all the roads were done for and the fire had swept all the way down to the water’s edge. There was another non-beachside town where everybody still there had to jump into the canal/ creek/ river in the main street when the fire came through. They’ve lost over a 100 properties over an area of nearly 3000 hectares.
There’s one report that someone might have died – but that came from a fire crew who had to shelter in their truck as the fire came through and during that time they thought they saw a bloke trying to fight the fire at his house. And he’s not around. But seeing as all the power lines are down (burnt to a crisp) and most of the phone towers are out of action, there’s no way to know just yet whether the lack of phone response from anyone means anything or not.
Tasmania has a fire problem the rest of us don’t have – though we have much more fire on the mainland than they do. There are no termites there. So what falls to the ground stays there. It also means they have many more timber houses as well as stacks of firewood near their houses, because it’s “safe” (but only from termites). So when a fire starts, there’s decades of fuel just waiting for its chance to go up like a candle.
SC (Salty Current), OM:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:31 am
I really enjoyed Make Mine a Double, about women and drinking.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:32 am
Alethea
I can’t stop staring at the photo at the make-up link. I think what does it for me is that it’s a stunning photo, period. At the same time, it is definitely feminine; but the ideal of feminine they have chosen to represent is so at odds with the usual, and unabashedly so, that, even with the accepted-feminine dress, hairstyle and make-up, the whole photo becomes a captivating portrait of a different feminine.
Or something.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:35 am
mildlymagnificent
:D You must be a geographer.
Also, anyone in Tasmania, stay safe! :o A bushfire is something I never want to experience or fear in my life. Fire freaks me out.
+++
Good night, Australia.
a_ray_in_dilbert_space:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:49 am
JAL: How the fuck did women glow before makeup?
Azkyroth: Radium.
Worked for Marie Curie!
Apropos of last night’s discussion on hair length and femininity:
When my wife had breast cancer 12 years ago, she of course lost all of her hair. She looked good and didn’t bother with the wig she had bought. We had a friend who couldn’t keep his eyes off her. Our neighbor, who was in his 20s at the time, heard that she had had cancer. He said, “Wow, I didn’t know that was why you didn’t have hair. I just thought you were really cool!”
At the same time, there were people who couldn’t look at her when she didn’t wear the wig–but that probably had to do with their fear of the disease.
mildlymagnificent:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:03 am
Reminds me of being at a conference for work. We were staying in a motel/ meeting facility in the winery area near where I live now. The road is in a bit of a depression and the accommodation units were up on a bit of a hillside.
During one of the days a fire started behind the hills on the other side of the road. So most of us spent that evening standing at our windows in 2s and 3s trying to decide whether we’d stay or go (we hadn’t had so much “Bushfire Plan” publicity back 20 years ago). At breakfast one of the blokes reckoned he’d settled on that tree on the skyline opposite – if that went up – he’d be gone. Same tree as I’d had my eye on.
And then … I was absolutely gobsmacked. Two of the three most senior managers there told us they’d hopped into one of the office cars for a couple of hours and drove along the road behind that hill to have a bit of a look at what was going on!!!??! Bet the Country Fire Service people were deeply fond of them!
I didn’t say anything then, and I still have trouble finding words for the pure, unadulterated fuckwittery they exhibited. Had a bit of trouble taking them seriously in meetings for a good while after that.
And speaking of fuckwittery, I need to nag daughter and partner. They still hadn’t cleared their roof and gutters of leaves and other cast-offs from the huge gum that overhangs part of their house. No point in bushfire plans you don’t actually put into practice.
mildlymagnificent:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:08 am
The ‘not clearing’ referred to by Xmas Day. Nagging is now a top priority.
I’ll even pay for roof cleaning if I have to – a big fire coming towards them if the wind is ‘right’ can drop embers from kilometres away.
Louis:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:21 am
MildlyMagnificent,
Aw you gotta have a look at a fire!
Mind you, I am a synthetic chemist, one of the very few sub-species of humans who will actively go towards large explode-y-burn-y fires and nod “sagely” while explaining that isn’t a proper fire, nothing like the one old 3-Fingers Smith had back when I was doing my PhD….blah…blah…drone…waffle.
Such dismissive attitudes can be found to be exhibited by synthetic chemists who are actually on fire at the time. I never claimed it was a sensible attitude.
Louis
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:47 am
Hi there
So, commited the horrible crime of shopping while being fat.
Mr. wants to treat me with a new winter jacket for my birthday. I know how that sounds, but I guess he was sick and tired of me going all Scrooge when it comes to spending money on me because me? worth it? nay!
Now, several rather expensive brands don’t care to make clothes that big anyway, but we found one that is really nice and high quality. But there are only 2 more in all the shops of that chain in all of Germany in black, so cross your fingers and hold your thumbs that they’re still there on Monday.
Tried to find it online. What I did find was a fraudulent online-shop that copied the original brand page 1:1. Shot the original brand an e-mail, guess they’ll come down on them harder and faster than any unfortunate person who lost their money there.
As for mum: wow, that’s denial. It’s all the Hep B. No really, alcohol isn’t to blame (and therefore treating the addiction is totally unnecessary). And well she’s already getting better, so what’s the matter? And the medication she gets to help her body detoxify (yes, there actually is a context in which the concept of toxins and cleanse are valid) is nonsense, of course, she knows that because of…
But hey, being angry at her for being a stubborn mule is actually easier than crying all the time…
Joe
Well, I frequently used to run into Natalie Reed arguing about gender-expression, which is a concept that I think is valid the way gender is currently constructed but that has to die alongside masculinity and femininity all along.
I admit that there’s cis-privilege in this: My gender isn’t questioned no matter how butch I am. But I also don’t think that things will be any better if we stick to the current narrow definitions by which a pink bow in your hair makes you a girl. I think that man and woman and everything in between are real. Actually I don’t need to grab between my legs or make a gene analysis to conclude I’m a woman.
Warning: cute kids story: #1 got a plush doggie she named “Lilany” and so Lilany needs purple hair (lila = purple). Muuuum, you have to make them long because Lilany is a girl! So I thought I had a teachable moment here, pointing out that her dad wears his hair long, while her aunt and her grandmas wear theirs short and that “girl” is something you are on the inside.
“Yes, mum, but Lilany only has polyester stuffing on the inside, so please make her long hair!”
Tony
Hmm, since for many trans* people it is very important to match their body to their mind, I don’t think that this would disappear just because society is happy with people wearing a beard and lipstick and hiking boots and a miniskirt all at once who work part-time as construction workers while they raise their offspring.
Riding a bike and swimming. That’s something all kids seem to get taught. Looks like Caine disagrees. Maybe culture again.
Alethea
Which also has a lot to do with gatekeeping. In Germany you have that fenomenon that as soon as they get approval for their GRS and are through with it transwomen seem to noticably “relax”. But before, when every pair of sloggy jeans might get used against you, better be as fem as you can.
And I think it also has to do with cis-people constantly judging trans-people for being “real” or not.
Point in case: There’s a young person living in our apartment block. Well, we say “hello” to each other, talk about the weather, but I don’t even know their name. That kind of neighbour. When we first moved in they were presenting as pretty butch female, with a rainbow-flag bumper-sticker. During the 5 years their appearnance has gotten more masculine, so I think that somebody who didn’t know them would now probably put them into the “male” category. And I will avoid putting that person into any category until they tell me what they prefer. Because putting a cis woman into the male category because she has certain likes and tastes seems as wrong to me as putting a transman into the female category because that’s how we first met.
mildlymagnificent
Yay!
Well, any success girls have is due to studying, any success boys have is due to genius. Unless it’s something that’s firmly within the female domain. #1 is apparently very good at paintig because she’s a girl, not because she spends 2-3 hours every day doing it.
Paul K.
Really? Having two daughters I despair at the narrow boxes from which society allows them to choose. Playing with boys is OK, but clothes? Make me despair.
men and reading
When I met Mr. he read the worst tabloid there is. I’ll always be grateful for Harry Potter which got him reading.
Caerie
Work out an individual schedule with your GP. I guess the time you need to wait between certain shots will stay the same, but nothing wrong with setting your priorities.
Paul K:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:19 am
Giliell,
I think it’s much easier for boys, in many ways, to be oblivious. But, yeah, clothes really keep kids in their ‘proper’ places, and teach them what those places are. Still, this is also much better than it used to be. I grew up in the 60s, and I remember the first time my sister wore pants. It did not meet the approval of many people. But my son does not get to wear a dress, and is certainly indoctrinated enough by this point that he would not want to.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:24 am
rq
No. Think about it. Which gender is more likely to be described as warm, or having attention to the warmth of their bodies? Or having “warm hands”.
That people of both genders radiate body heat at roughly 37 centigrade does in no way stop “glowing” from being gendered. No more than shitting is immune from gendering from the fact that we all have to excrete in roughly the same way.
I’m picking a nit here – but I think it’s kinda an important nit:
Nothing has a gendered nature. If we at all separate between nature and culture/nuture, gendering is all culture. It might or might not have a natural (biological) base, but to connect gendering to “nature” is to essentialise it.
“Studying” is not a single, discrete activity. Different ways and perceptions of the process are gendered in different ways, but there is a lot of gendering hanging about in the universities (as anywhere else).
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:33 am
Paul K
It might be better than the 1960′s, but it’s definetly worse than the 1980′s, when Lego were for all kids and Barbie had real jobs.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:40 am
I got in serious trouble over My Little Pony though…
A possible explanation for why I detest horses today (except as meat).
Paul K:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:43 am
Giliell,
Oh, yes. No argument there. I run a childcare center, and won’t have anything to do with the grossly over-gendered toys that are really hard to avoid. Kids only start to care when they are given the message that they should. Most of our Lego were found at garage sales or donated, and then gone through to get rid of gendered crap, especially the most ‘boyish’ stuff: weapons.
Paul K:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:46 am
And I should say that other staff who work at my site, and leaders at other sites, have no problem with the gendered stuff, nor the weapons, even though it’s a school district policy to not have weapons of any kind, real, toy, or imaginary, in the schools.
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:51 am
Paul K
Oh, our daycare is great. They have all kinds of toys, but the non-gendered version. So, there is a kitchen, but it ain’t pink. There are two dolls, but they’re made of fabric, they’re girl and boy and they come with recognizable bits. But the rest of the world isn’t. I swear #1 didn’t care about pink before she started. And she loves Legos.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 10:05 am
Giliell
We have the exact opposite – everything on the ‘girls” side of the room is pink. BUT the boys are allowed to play there, and I’ve actively encouraged eldest to try those toys out, too. When middle-child visits (on pick-ups), he heads straight for the pink kitchen and red-tinged cash register.
Also, I was going to mention Natalie Reed as a direction to point people wanting more writing on gender. In my opinion, she writes extremely captivating, thought-provoking pieces. Can’t say if they’re all right, all of the time, but I have always, always enjoyed what she writes, and have always found her writing to be a reason for me to examine my own views about gender and culture and all that other m/f dichotomy stuff that seemed so obvious.
Gnumann+
I know, I know – it was a bit of a joke, a reference to the fact that the only really ungendered thing men and women can both do is biological processes. Because culture…
Never mind.
Louis
I wouldn’t go near a bushfire. But, I’d walk right up to a live volcano, if I could. ;) And I’m only a biologist!
mildlymagnificent
Heh. I’d have a hard time taking people like that seriously as well. More like snicker behind my hand at the wonderful, totally-professional, organized, professional and totally fiscally responsible plans they’re presenting to everyone. Or something like that!
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 5th, 2013 at 10:23 am
Thanks again to the Horde for the most educational discussion! I’m still processing a lot of what I learned, but it helped clarify many things for me.
—
mildlymagnificent:
Ugh, gawkers! In our county, nearly everyone owns a scanner and going to big or nearby calls is a form of entertainment. Once, when I was with the fire auxiliary*, our service truck** got hit by a gawker who was so busy watching the barn fire that he drove right into the back of it.
But, it takes a special type of stupid to go wandering out to look at a bushfire (or forest fire).
*Renamed six years ago as the Dept X Support Service.
**Mobile kitchen for providing firefighters with food & drinks while on-scene at major calls.
—
Louis:
This was apparently my great-grandmother’s attitude. They lived across the street from the fire station in Oneida NY, and every time the siren sounded, she’d pack up whatever kids were at home, fill a thermos with hot coffee, and follow them. We suspect she founded the Ladies Auxiliary just so they couldn’t yell at her anymore.
—
Giliell:
*fingers and thumbs crossed*
I’m sorry your mom is so deep in denial. I wish you much strength to cope, now and in the future.
Paul K:
January 5th, 2013 at 10:30 am
I used to have long hair, and kept it for as long as I did partially just to blur the lines for the kids. I wear a pink shirt occasionally, for the same reason, but also because I like it.
I work with older kids, five to about ten years old, so the indoctrination is pretty established when I get them. But one of the things I really value about my job is challenging them to think critically. I ask ‘Why?’ a lot.
Pteryxx:
January 5th, 2013 at 10:32 am
via BB:
quote from: http://boingboing.net/2013/01/04/cc-licensed-muslim-sf-antholog.html
The anthology is here, at the Islam and Science Fiction blog (which also has interviews, panels and book reviews):
http://islamscifi.com/a-mosque-among-the-stars-available-for-free/
Sample of the other stuff:
http://islamscifi.com/review-apex-magazines-arabmuslim-issue/
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 5th, 2013 at 12:59 pm
When I was a ski instructor (back in the 1880s) we were told by our head instructor that women initiate turns differently than men. Had to do with the hips and the wider pelvis. I never saw it, nor have I heard of it since then, but, yes, for some people, skiing is gendered.
Once. Thud!
I’m a ranger. And Strider was a ranger . . . .
Would you do it on a boat?
Would you do it with a goat?
Would you do it in the rain?
Would you do it on a train?
Sorry. My mind went there.
All Hail Tpyos! That should be 1970s. Damn.
Hell, yeah. Male: Boilermaker, beer, scotch and soda, whiskey. Female: daquiri, wine, anything with an umbrella.
Very sexualized in movies. Men die protecting the world from giant ants. Women die huddled in a corner whimpering. (not in all movies, but in enough)
This morning, I enjoyed possibly the most accurately named product ever. A Gurkha Widowmaker.
And even tobacco use is gendered.
They can be scary.
Some years back, in Montana, I was at one brush fire. Another one started close by (so we were tasked with that one, too (which meant it was now the Bundy Railroad Complex, not the Bundy Railroad Fire)) and it went from start, to 150,000 acres, to out in three days. Took out twelve buildings and two cars. Scary.
My job at a fire is to prevent that sort of idiocy.
Horses sweat, men perspire, women glow.
That’s what Wife was taught.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:08 pm
Ogvorbis
Apparently you were a ski instructor in the 1880s. You can’t escape the truth: you are old.
Next time I’m out in the summer heat, melting and dripping all over the (hopefully by then) backyard, I’ll think to myself, It’s just a lovely glow! and pass on the shower before heading out into public.
+++
The entire balance is now contingent on the bank being at least slightly forthcoming on Monday. So we might, in fact, be owning a home a few months sooner than expected or planned. It’s like ants not only in the pants, but everywhere else, too. Pins. Needles. Excitement!
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:10 pm
Woohoo rq! That’s awesome!
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:10 pm
That is, the bank will own the home, for which we will pay over the next 20 – 25 years, and in which we will meanwhile live in the (false) peace of believing it is ours.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:12 pm
Portia
Yes! It is. I want to freak out about it, but I also don’t want to say too much about it, because I feel like I would be jinxing the whole process. And the bank can always say no, which would be assholish of them, but it’s a bank. Heh. :) So.
Anyway.
What’s new with you? :)
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:15 pm
Yeah, I’m sure the suspense isn’t doing your blood pressure any favors right now! I have everything crossed (and stacks of thumbs? was that the thing?) that it works out splendidly.
New with me? I’m sort of allowing myself to sit and be a bum for a little bit before starting to clean the house. I went out with some friends for a cousin’s birthday last night so I slept in a bit. It was a really fun time, haven’t gone out for drinks in a long long time. It was also gratifying that it meant so much to cousin that I came.
What’s your weekend looking like? Aside from the waiting.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:18 pm
re: Gendered drinking
This reminded me of something that happened when L and I visited his family early in our relationship. WE ere at his (very conservative and traditional) grandmother’s house, and he was not out to her (as trans), so this is in the context of her speaking to her perceived grand daughter. Drinks were being poured, and L poured himself a tumbler of whiskey. Grandmother says “Oh, you should be drinking that on the rocks, let me get some ice.” He replied “I know how I like my whiskey, Grandma, and I like it neat.” She looked as though he’d slapped her. She was very into performing femininity to the hilt and making damn sure all of her female descendants did too, will-they nill-they.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:21 pm
Dalillama: I realize this is totally tangential to your story, but I’ve never heard “will-they nill-they”. I get what it means, but do you know if “willie nillie” is a derivative? Interesting.
Oh, and some grandmas do tend to enforce that stuff, don’t they? Matriarch has to keep an eye out and all that.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:22 pm
This weekend – nothing much. Sorting through some paperwork and reading up on legislation regarding small businesses (going to legalize the whole translating thing, since it seems the service wants to make greater use of my talents than previously, which means more income, but that means taxesssss), and probably going to take the two elder to see The Hobbit tomorrow. They’ve read the book twice (ok, fine, we read it to them) and they both know the story and they’ve been looking forward to it since the spring. Also, since Harry Potter doesn’t scare them anymore, I figure they’ll be ok.
Yeah, the year is starting big.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:27 pm
Oh, man, thanks for reminding me to work on my tax documents. My long-suffering accountant is still waiting on them. It’s that sort of administrative stuff that is not fun to me about running a small business. Best of luck to you on that front. Very cool that your translating revenue is picking up to that level. More income is always great.
I’m still not sure about The Hobbit, based on what I’ve heard. A few days ago SO and I agreed we’ll probably rent it later. I read the books as a kid, but don’t have a great memory for long-ago books. I hope you and the kiddies enjoy it thoroughly. It’s especially fun as a kid, I think, to see a movie about a book you love.
I’m sort of wondering how long it will take me to get sick of looking at the dirt and clutter today and work up the energy to clean. Maybe I’ll pretend it’s someone else’s house and go berzerk on it.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:28 pm
portia
Willie-nillie is derived from ‘will he, nill he,’ meaning with or without the consent of the person involved. Historical constructions also include ‘will-I, nill-I’ when referring to oneself (or ‘will-we nill -we’ if there’s more than one of you), will-she nill-she when referring to a female, and of course the one I used above, in the case of plural third persons or individuals of unspecified gender.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:31 pm
Dalillama:
Thanks! I think I just discovered another way language is gendered. I didn’t know “willie nillie” was from a male pronoun. Wonder how much else I’m not aware of. (oh, right, a LOT ha)
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:32 pm
Portia
If it helps, pretend it’s my house. :)
Yeah, I’m not looking forward to the tax bits, but I suppose it’s better than getting giant fines and prison sentences for comparatively small amounts (I mean, I’m not going to be a millionaire or anything).
I’m hoping The Hobbit will not get too boring for the kids, though – a 3-hour movie is still a 3-hour movie. The story and fantastic creatures should carry it through for them.
<bDalillama
I have also never heard will-they, nill-they, but it has a different association (to me) from willy-nilly. The surface connection seems obvious, though (visually).
Louis:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:39 pm
Okay NOW I understand! I was wondering why I was mentioned in Oggie’s #1155, it’s that Tony’s fault for his #1025.
Non-gendered activity. Hmmm.
Remote controlled lesbian feminist robot chess?
Louis
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:45 pm
Louis
Nope. You still have a King and a Queen and their relative allowed forms of movement. And feminists.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:47 pm
Dalillama
Thanks for the explanation on that. I’d always taken to willy-nilly to mean something done in chaotic and disorderly fashion, rather than with or without someone’s consent. It does make a lot of sense, though, now that I think about it. Thanks!
Louis:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:52 pm
rq,
Ahh but it’s FEMINIST chess where the King and Queen interchange roles as they see fit based on a mutually beneficial, rational discussion of their needs, and the robots controlling them are lesbian robots without gender.
Louis
P.S. To be fair, I’m not sure the robots are lesbians, but I want them to be. Shit. That makes it gendered doesn’t it? Back to the drawing board.
Louis:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:55 pm
Also: respiration. Totally non-gendered. The men and women respire is identical and not open to social modification.*
Louis
* I’d have gone for shitting, but let’s be blunt, a man-shit involves a packet of woodbines, a copy of Exchange and Mart, shirt off, and at least 30 minutes.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:55 pm
rq
That’s also a correct modern usage; there’s been considerable drift of meaning there.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:57 pm
Louis
I’m pretty sure lesbians is a gendered term, so… Yeah.
opposablethumbs:
January 5th, 2013 at 1:57 pm
Still trying to catch up, but this has been one of the most interesting Lounge incarnations ever. And it struck me – this was kind of like the way any of the feminism threads could be, if they were WITHOUT TROLLS!!!!!!!!! Without derailment by MRAs and assorted fuckwits! It’s so refreshing!
.
A delight to read, with so much to learn and such a refreshing absence of douchebags.
chigau (違う):
January 5th, 2013 at 2:00 pm
willy-nilly
http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-wil2.htm
Paul K:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:02 pm
Louis:
You must have missed the discussion upthread of both breathing and shitting. We were pretty thorough.
opposablethumbs:
Yes!
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:03 pm
In that case, rq, your house is a wreck. :D
Louis:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:07 pm
Rq:
Damn, you’re right, you’re right. I’m going to have to take this seriously. I might even read the rest of the thread! :-)
If we got rid of the lesbian part? Remote controlled feminist robot chess?
Paul K:
I’m going to have to go and read that now aren’t I? Curse these timezones!
Louis
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:10 pm
Louis
Hmm. I think feminist is still a gendered term… Somewhere in there! Remote-controlled robot chess with hidden identities (preferably behind screens). And I’ll take your revision of King/Queen roles.
Also, I believe Louis means cellular respiration, not breathing – because all cells respire (so totally non-gendered), but everybody knows (as someone pointed out) that women do not gasp for air through their mouths like fish out of water (I may be paraphrasing).
Beatrice:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:16 pm
I used to like Gérard Depardieu.
The greedy asshole.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:21 pm
Beatrice
Yup, he’s ruined himself in my eyes.
+++
Watching Meet Joe Black in the background (for the first time, even though it was hyped when I was the right age to succumb to such hype – I think I didn’t see it on principle because Brad Pitt). And my goodness – the whole pool scene? So rapey! Girl clearly uncomfortable being alone with this man? Man with wide-eyed unblinking stare at girl, being socially inept? Yeah… Keeps talking until girl feels some osrt of sympathy? You have all ruined* my movie-watching experience.
*in a good way
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:22 pm
Ok, four hours of sulking in my jammies is enough. Here I go.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:24 pm
All cells may respire, but cellular respiration is totally centered in the mitochondria.
Which you inherit from your mother.
(Just sayin’)
–
Another gendered thing: being demented. Women are to become vague, think everyone is their son/daughter, and do things like try to wear their panties has hats. Men are allowed to become violent and talk about the war. Women who have dementia are given tranquilizers and restrained when they become violent long before men are. Also, women with dementia are not allowed to start expressing sexuality in the “wrong” way as result of their dementia. A man who does is greeted with nervous laughter and discussions on how to contain it. A woman who does it is greeted with stunned silence. Part of this, I think, is the expectation that women – especially older women – are not independently sexual.
Louis:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:28 pm
Esteleth,
That is a very good point. You do mostly (almost exclusively IIRC) inherit mitochondria from your mother. But how far back do we go? Mitochondria were cellular “passengers” prior to sex I think (I could be wrong), therefore if true, respiring would be the ultimate gender neutral thing!
Louis
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:32 pm
Esteleth
Well, you ruined that one for me (the respiration, not the dementia).
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:34 pm
And Louis may have saved it!
(But. If we’re going to be historical, then pink is non-gendered because it used to be a boys’ colour. So how far back are we allowed to go? And wouldn’t respiration have become gendered at the point in time where its transmission was allocated to female sex cells?)
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:38 pm
I think I’ve finally found a non-gendered activity: Decomposing. We all rot the same in the end.
Paul K:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:39 pm
Are we conflating ‘gender’ and ‘sex’ again? I’m not complaining; this is all fascinating to me.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:39 pm
re: decomposing
Soon after Beethoven’s death, a man walking through the cemetery heard strange music that sounded vaguely but inexplicably familiar. After a long attempt at discovering its origin, he located it at Beethoven’s grave. He requested that the grave be opened, to confirm his belief, and yes – there was Beethoven, de-composing…
[cue laughs]
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:39 pm
Can we even call passive things like cellular respiration and decomposition activities, though? I don’t think it’s a meaningful exception. Unless you all weren’t totally serious, in which case, carry on.
…wait I’m not supposed to be here. Toodles!
Beatrice:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:40 pm
rq,
I laughed.
Paul K:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:41 pm
Hmm… decompozing. I’m not into zombies, but do they differ much in gender specific ways?
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 5th, 2013 at 2:47 pm
Do men and women play piano differently (or are there social rules for both)?
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:54 pm
Tony
I don’t know about anymore, but formerly, possibly – music was the department of well-educated (that is, musically, handicraftily, etiquette-ly) girls.
From my personal experience in piano-playing, it’s a difficult instrument to gender. What you play, these days, depends on your ability and personal taste rather than concertos for boys and sonatas for girls. It gets a bit different when you get into jazz, though, because of the whole women-don’t-improvise bit, and then one might say that music is the dominion of men (and the oft-asked MRA question, why no female Mozarts? – see: Mozart’s sister, I believe from FtB somewhere a short while ago).
Portia
I think the whole respiration/decomposing as activities is a bit tongue-in-cheek… Because apparently to get to non-gendered activities (that is, eliminate the influence of culture), you’re getting into biological and cellular function. Eek!
Paul K
I’m not sure, I think we’re going the ‘traditional’ dichotomous gendering of the world to find activities that would be equally suitable for men and women. Gendering is not dichotomous, but cultural constructs insist that we all fall into the two categories, and hence all active activities seem to be divided along two possible branches (doing the same activity two different ways, or separating the appropriateness of an activity for one group or another)… Or something.
The current activity of finding non-gendered activities is more of a for-laughs type thing (on my end).
What about typing?
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 5th, 2013 at 2:56 pm
Exclusively from one’s mother, Louis.
The father contributes one haploid set of DNA via the sperm. The mother contributes one haploid set of DNA, and a full complement of cellular organelles – including the mitochondria – via the egg.
And yes, mitochondria are an undigested dinner from ages ago that stuck around and formed a symbiot. They are found in most (all?) eukaryotes.
Louis:
January 5th, 2013 at 3:05 pm
Esteleth,
I am going to have to go to Google (and I can’t be bothered dammit I blame you! ;-) ) because I read somewhere that the matrilineal exclusivity of mitochondrial inheritance wasn’t so exclusive. In other words there was sometimes some contamination from the sperm.
Granted this is from the Pffft and one reference from outside my field, so all caveats apply, but here’s an example in humans (apparently):
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa020350
Louis
betelgeux:
January 5th, 2013 at 3:06 pm
For anyone interested, there is a petition on Change.org to strip Michael Nodianos (the Steubenville, OH student seen bragging about rape on video) of his scholarship to Ohio State University. Anyone callous and immoral enough to joke so disgustingly about a defenseless victim of depraved masculinity does not deserve a scholarship to a prestigious college.Even if he was not involved in the rape itself, his disregard for human life and arrogant sexism displayed in that video should be enough to revoke him of his scholarship.
http://www.change.org/petitions/ohio-state-university-strip-michael-colin-nodianos-of-his-ohio-state-academic-scholarship
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 3:25 pm
Louis
That article still leaves the vast majority of mitochondria maternally inherited, which means, unfortunately, cellular respiration is still a gendered activity. A 50-50 split would indicate it was not.
(Very interesting article, that. I surprised myself by actually understanding all of it. Thank you.)
blogofmyself, writer of papers:
January 5th, 2013 at 3:56 pm
Hello all. I just wanted to say that I’m loving the conversation about gendered things. You’re all brilliant.
Today is my last day at my parents’ house before I head back home for the spring semester. As much as I love my family, I’ll be happy to be back home again. There’s nothing better than sleeping in your own bed, and I do get tired of living out of a suitcase after a while.
In other news, my little brother finally got me hooked on Dr. Who, so I’ve decided to actually start watching them in order now rather than picking episodes on a random whim like I’ve been doing. I started with the 10th Doctor (I’m not a huge fan of 9) and I’m planning to watch all the episodes they currently have on Netflix. I’m about 10 episodes in right now, and I have a bit of a crush on David Tennant. He’s just so damn cute.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:02 pm
Rereads what I wrote. D’oh!
Well, if you weren’t trying totally nude skydiving (which, of course, means not parachute because that is something you wear), Tony would not have been forced to mention you. Which forced me to mention you.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:20 pm
rq:
Sorry, I sometimes suffer from deficient written humour detection (popular name – “old fart”).
Louis:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:30 pm
rq,
1) I was being facetious when I mentioned respiration, for precisely the reason Portia mentioned upthread (it’s hardly an activity). I’m having a hard time thinking of an activity that cannot have connotations of gender associated with it. If that’s the bar we have to pass. I think this is because we are talking about activity, something that is externally visible to others to some degree, and thus the social constructs associated with gender can be imposed on it.
2) The idea that respiration is gendered is, to me, utterly ridiculous. Whether or not we get our mitochondria matrilineally. It’s like that ridiculous caricature of postmodernist feminism that is claimed to assert that the reason we don’t understand fluid mechanics is because fluid flow is associated with menstruation and thus women, and science is a male hegemony. Now while there are obviously problems with the sex ratios and how women are treated in science, it doesn’t follow from that that the stuff science the itself describes is necessarily sexed. It’s bonkers! Respiration is a process that occurs irrespective of gender, or even sex. It occurs in asexual organisms, across all organisms, albeit with variations in the underlying chemistry. Hence why I picked it. I thought it was an obvious joke! Maybe “metabolism” would have been less opaque…although I can see that going into fat being a feminist issue with the right misconstruing! ;-)
3) I think the question needs elaboration (which I admit might only be necessary due to my skim of the above posts). Are we asking is there any activity that people of any gender can engage in that has no external gendered ramifications? Or are we asking if there are activities that people of any gender can engage in regardless of their gender? So to use the “breathing” example, for the first question breathing fails our test, people can breathe in a gendered way, as discussed. But for the second question, breathing fits, we can breathe, or not, regardless of gender or even regardless of sex. How society and ourselves determine what method we use to breathe falls under the first question. I’m struggling to think of anything that fits the first question that is an activity. Well, anything that doesn’t immediately fall foul of solipsism like “seeing the colour purple” (not what you think of it, the simple act of seeing).
Going on what others have been saying, we’re asking the first of those questions. Sorry, I realise my flippancy occasionally obscures the fact that I can be serious….ish….nearly.
Louis
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:32 pm
Does people do cellular respiration?
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:34 pm
Scheise! (pardon my German, especially the spelling if it’s wrong).
Louis beat me – and my 1202 seems to apply.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:35 pm
Lous:
I clearly remember a female gym teacher, back when I was in 8th grade, telling one of the best athletes in our school, a girl, that girls are never supposed to exert themselves to the point that they can be seen, or heard, to be breathing. For a girl to pant, according to this teacher, makes her sound like a slut. No, not kidding. So yes, respiration is culturally gendered.
Pteryxx:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:38 pm
…Here I should mention the corner store customer – dudely dude, of course – who proudly refuses to drink milk because it’s homogenized. srsly.
(Also I’d totally watch nude skydiving just from curiosity to see what distortions the wind force imposes on everything else besides the face. Minds want to know!)
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:46 pm
Louis
Rest assured I was being rather facetious with my final conclusion as well. I suppose I should also apologize for sometimes appearing to be serious when, in fact, I am not. (I’ve been told I make it difficult to differentiate in real life, as well.)
So yes, I’m quite aware that you may be most often flippant, but are capable of being serious. Usually I choose to read flippant comments with the underlying seriousness that whatever is being said is utterly ridiculous… If that makes sense. It’s kind of late but it seems to make sense to me.
As for your #3, I’ve been looking at the question as a combination of both your questions, which I attempted to elaborate slightly in my reply to Paul K @1195.
I apologize. I may have carried the amusing conversation a bit too far. I am honestly not suggesting that maternal inheritance of mitochondria implies that cellular respiration is a gendered activity.
+++
I think this is a good time to leave the conversation. Good night!
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:46 pm
Shit. Sorry for macerating your ‘nym, Louis. My bad.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:47 pm
PS But Louis I was totally serious about being grateful for that article you linked. Very interesting and all the more so to me because I understood it all.
That is all.
Louis:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:51 pm
Oggie,
’tis totally okay, old bean. I mangle stuff all the time. And I was talking about respiration as in cells, not respiration as in breathing. But I do agree, breathing is, in the original sense of the question, gendered. Which sucks.*
Louis
*Incidentally is “it sucks” a gendered expression? I’ve often wondered if it follows the route suck>fellatio>women/gay men therefore bad.
Orange Utan:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:52 pm
As to non-gendered activities, and as seen as an outside observer, what about…
**looks around carefully for cicely**
…equestrian.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:54 pm
A google search for “horse” autocompletes to “horse games”, and the second result is “Horse games for girls”
So…
Louis:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:54 pm
rq,
YOU GET BACK HERE NOW!!!!
:-)
Sarcasm/irony etc doesn’t always come across well in text, we all do it, it’s not a failing of yours per se. What I love, love, LOVE about people like you is misunderstandings are just that, misunderstandings. Not evil, but natural limits of communication. I miscommunicate and misunderstand all the time, it’s no big deal as long as the all involved, myself included, are dealing with each other charitably and in full awareness of their limits.
Please to be accepting this large drink.
Louis
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:55 pm
Orange Utan:
Even a Scotsman in a kilt will not ride sidesaddle. So, I disagree about equestrianism being non-gendered.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:58 pm
Louis
I doubt a very large drink is what I need before heading to bed, but thank you. I shall chug it back at leisure. ;) (And yes, I’m not flouncing well right now.)
Ogvorbis
Ever heard of riding side-saddle for the wimminz? Yeah, equestrian = totally gendered, because a woman riding astride a horse is a no-no.
Currently, piano-playing seems to be the best bet, on a hobby level, although I am clueless about the current statistics of internationally acclaimed professional pianists (I know the current Latvian wunderkind is a man).
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 4:59 pm
Ehhhh sorry Ogvorbis I miss-replied and yes, I saw your reply. My @1216 under the heading of Ogvorbis was actually for Orange Utan. Apologies.
It really is late.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:03 pm
That was my point, rq. It was Orang Utan who suggested equestrianianianismism as being non gendered.
When I took beginning piano lessons way back when (last century, in fact), we all used the same books. I just looked on Amazon, though, and there are many, many piano books for girls. So I think it is becoming more gendered. At least in the USA.
jefrir:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:04 pm
Interestingly, apparently being groped by old ladies is something of an accepted hazard for male ambulance crews.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:06 pm
I am unfamiliar with this phenomenon.
jefrir:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:08 pm
Equestrian sports also follow the “for women unless well paid” tendency – most casual riders are female, and horses are generally pretty solidly positioned as a “girl thing”, but pretty much all racing jockeys are male.
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:09 pm
Portia
Are you a male ambulance crew? ;)
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:10 pm
Louis:
Re: suck.
Two big disclaimers: I haven’t researched this and English is not my native.
But for me at least, suck is, if not gendered, so sex-negative that I choose to avoid it.
This is reinforced by the fact that (at least in my native) reinforced by wee-wee, dick or arse.
Which of course makes me a hypocrite since I use “fuck” unabashfully. And if we go deep enough, isn’t fuck a gendered slur? After all – it’s all to often (and in the original sense of the word) fuck or be fucked…
Pteryxx:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:13 pm
Jockeys being male annoys me so much. Women already are smaller and lighter on average, what the frick? (Also one of the very rare cases, along with pro boxing and maybe wrestling, where *men* go on starvation diets to be competitive. *headshake*)
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:13 pm
rq
Ha, no, I’m not. I’m just interested in the basis for such a broad claim.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:15 pm
I knew guys who wrestled in high school who almost certainly had eating disorders, if not just severely unhealthy eating regimens. And it was sanctioned, encouraged, and rewarded. Another of the ways I have seen sports be affirmatively bad for adolescent participants.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:15 pm
Still reading Manhood in America. It seems there was a small group of men seeking an alternative masculinity and those pesky men were *gasp* abolitionists and Woman’s Righters! Eek. After a speech given by Frederick Douglass in which he talked about the importance of women having full autonomy, the papers (Syracuse papers) broke out in a fit of calling him an Aunt Nancy Man. Back in the day, it seems Aunt Nancy men and manmilliners were the precursors to the current mangina.
Louis:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:15 pm
Gnumann+,
Yup.
I can give up many things, but “fuck”? I think that would take a singular effort of will. I’m not sure I’d manage that one.
Louis
John Morales:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:17 pm
Something sucks
rq:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:18 pm
Portia
I’ve seen it in the movies, where it’s funny when the grannies do it. Supposedly.
Ogvorbis @1218
I know, I tried to rectify the situation immediately after posting by posting again. Sorry again for mis-replying to you when I meant someone else.
Pteryxx
But a smaller, fit woman can in no way control that giant animal, not like a half-starved, undersized man could!
+++
And yes, this time I’m really going to bed. Good night!
Orange Utan:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:18 pm
Sorry, I was sort of thinking of the actual sport of Equestrianism in the context of 3 day eventing rather than anything horse-riding activities that would also come under equestrianism.
I was thinking of the fact that both sexes competed equally (hopefully) in the same competitions.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:22 pm
Orange Utan:
Nope. Women do jumping competitions. Men do steeplechase. And so on. I used to own horses, equestrianism is absurdly gendered.
Also, riding side saddle wasn’t just because of those inconvenient dresses – it had to do with a belief that any sort of strenuous horse riding while sitting astride would break a young woman’s hymen, thereby removing the proof of her virtue. Can’t have that, oh no. There are still idiots who believe that.
Louis:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:23 pm
John,
Oh bollocks! That’s another one I’m going to have to watch out for.
I mean Oh bugger…oh balls…oh cock…oh shit!!! Yes Shit!!!! Finally!
Louis
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:24 pm
rq:
No problems. I replied while you were correcting yourself. C’est kewl.
Orange Utan:
There are specific parts of general areas that manage to be non-gendered even within a gendered activity?
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:25 pm
Women doing equestrianism are allowed to, but they must be Ladylike: dressage and the like. And they must be Dainty, and preferably ride side-saddle.
Men are allowed to do “athletic” stuff, and stuff that earns money and beyond local fame.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:26 pm
Caine:
Was unaware of that. Thanks.
And this talk has also helped me remember the historical sexist link of the term ‘riding academy.’
Pteryxx:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:26 pm
I’m also watching the US football playoffs (yeah yeah, I know) and side-eyeing the commercials for fried chicken and cured-meat-laden pizza (y’know, MAN foods) right alongside Viagra ads. Hey, football-watching dudebros, did you know atherosclerosis contributes to erectile dysfunction? Eat more of those long, rigid, oh-so-phallic vegetables! (and orchidic tubers!)
(honestly, *dried seahorses* are supposedly wonderful penis-empowering foodstuff, but zucchini the size of a horse’s wang isn’t? Come ON guys!)
John Morales:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:28 pm
Louis, that blows.
;)
jefrir:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:34 pm
I’m a member of St John ambulance, and have several friends who work for various ambulance services. It’s something fairly regularly mentioned in discussions about the job, and I’m told it’s basically a weekly event – just one of those things, like the “collapsed, unconscious” that turns out to be “drunk, fell over, then buggered off”, or the people demanding ambulances for sprained wrists.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:39 pm
Louis:
Poot, darn and heck? (Actually, I’m usure about the “poot”)
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:44 pm
Poot – feminized version of fart.
Orange Utan:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:49 pm
@Esteleth
I specifically mentioned 3 day eventing. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eventing,
Paul K:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:52 pm
I use ‘stinks’ a lot. And ‘cheese balls’ rather than ‘Jesus’. And ‘sugar’. But only when I feel I have to. And shit and fuck. I like them very much.
Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:53 pm
Thanks Caine. I was of course going for maximum sillyness, forgetting that in our lovely culture maximum sillyness has got to have a strong connection to feminity. I should have learnt by now…
This is it. Time to come out of the closet as a radfem. Let’s take patriarchy out back and shoot it in the neck.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:54 pm
Orange Utan:
You still don’t fucking get it – eventing is highly gendered. There is still dressage, and a woman will lose serious points if everything isn’t up to standard. Did you know for a particular event, one of the standards is whether or not a woman competitor will be proper Ball material? FFS, if you don’t know the ins and outs of such things, don’t talk about them.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:56 pm
Gnumann:
Aaaw. I have a shotgun, but I also have a lovely recurve and a variety of sharp, pointy items. Couldn’t we be creative?
Pteryxx:
January 5th, 2013 at 5:56 pm
…Oh nads. I wondered why it was so quiet around here, and then realized – all the mansplaining douchebags are at their playoff parties or sports bars, watching the same football I’m watching. EEEEWWWWWW….
Well, at least I watched MLP this morning. in lieu of church. <_<
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:00 pm
Also bodybuilding. On that note, I suspect that the female ‘bodybuilder’ who was photographed for the Salon shoot above is actually a weightlifter/powerlifter. Bodybuilders, male and female alike, tend to have disturbingly defined muscles with bulging veins. Part of this effect is caused by the fact that they routinely starve themselves for days or even weeks before competitions/photoshoots, and the bodybuilding competitions are entirely aesthetic events. Weightlifting competitions, on the other hand, are about how much wieght you can move vs how much you actually weigh, and the people who enter them are usually stronger and healthier but much less defined than bodybuilders are (mostly because they don’t tend to starve themselves. Quite the opposite, if anything.
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:04 pm
FossilFishy 1126
The dérailleur bracket is bent, I can’t fix that myself, I need the shop to do it. After that, I already know how to change out my wheel, and I’m pretty sure I can work out the dérailleur replacement from the bike repair manuals I’ve got. Thatk you for the offer, though.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:05 pm
Pterryx:
That’s unfair. Some of us manlymen patriarchs (like meself) can watch football (real football, not that round ball stuff) and type on a keyboard. At the same time.
Pteryxx:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:09 pm
Oggie: I know right? Hmph.
Gnumann+, Radfem shotgunner of inhuman concepts:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:12 pm
Caine:
I’m not sure if it’s a rancid zombie or not, so better go with the blowing it’s head off with a shotgun. Just in case… (Of course, afterwards it’s lemon, salt, stake, silver and hiding it’s left sock, just in case).
John Morales:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:28 pm
I’ve seen Zombie Strippers.
(One of those movies where the title perfectly sums up the movie rather than misleads)
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:32 pm
I prefer my zombie braised in Borolo with some parsnips and thyme.
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:34 pm
Insofar as the innocent etymology of other words isn’t regarded as a defense, I wouldn’t say so. Chest wounds suck too, and those aren’t really gendered.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:47 pm
I hear Electrolux suck as well.
chigau (違う):
January 5th, 2013 at 6:50 pm
Kittens and puppies suck.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:55 pm
Thumbsucking.
What in the hell did people say prior to “that sucks”? I’ve been trying to remember and all that comes to mind is bummer.
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 5th, 2013 at 6:57 pm
“Zombie Strippers” is fucking hilarious!
Orange Utan:
January 5th, 2013 at 6:58 pm
@Caine
“That blows”?
Couldn’t resist.
Ogvorbis: useless:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:02 pm
Vacuum cleaners are like guitars. Plug ‘em in and they suck.
michaeld:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:04 pm
From my movie watching experiences I’d say “that’s lame”? Personally don’t like either term.
Owlmirror:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:07 pm
*ironic amusement*
I followed the link from Janine’s extended EW above to a page about Bill O’Reilly’s “Killing Lincoln”, and noticed the link at the bottom of the page…
The writer-producer of the upcoming film Killing Lincoln says infamous presidential assassin John Wilkes Booth could be a “poster boy for the tea party.”
John Morales:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:10 pm
Owlmirror, what for did you use a cite tag?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:16 pm
Michaeld:
No, I’m trying to think back to the early ’70s. I’m coming up with nothing besides bummer.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:17 pm
Based on Bill-o’s book?
Hasn’t tht been criticized for the amazing collection of historical errors it contains?
michaeld:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:19 pm
Hmm ok yes that’s farther back then most of my movie experience…
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:20 pm
There used to be that bites, but I haven’t seen that in a long while.
chigau (違う):
January 5th, 2013 at 7:20 pm
I’ve been using “that sucks” since forever, my parents used it.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:23 pm
Chigau:
Hmmm. I just don’t remember it being used in the early ’70s. If A ever used it, it wasn’t in front of me, but I rarely lived with her. My grandparents certainly didn’t, they didn’t approve of the cussin’.
Paul K:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:25 pm
It’s probably regional, and was definitely short-lived, but in the early 70s, all the kids around me said ‘That’s sad.’ In pretty much exactly the way we now use ‘that sucks’ or ‘that’s lame’. I’ve never read it anywhere, and have always wondered how widespread it was. When I met my future wife in the late eighties, I found out that it had been used in her school/family,neighborhood, too, and she grew up in a suburb on the other side of the Twin Cities from me (I grew up in the middle of St. Paul).
Otherwise, all I come up with is ‘that stinks’.
chigau (違う):
January 5th, 2013 at 7:30 pm
In my neck of the woods* it was a shortened form of “sucks the hind teat”, meaning getting a raw deal.
I think it’s quite recent that other things are being sucked.
—-
*trying for a rustic mood
Paul K:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:32 pm
Here’s an interesting theory that seems reasonable (and allows me to keep using the phrase without guilt):
And I recall reading, or hearing, the phrase ‘that sucks hind tit’ before. I’m pretty sure it was something a friend in high school, who grew up in rural Texas, said occassionally.
That quote comes from here: http://askville.amazon.com/origin-phrase-blank-sucks/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=33065909
Paul K:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:32 pm
chigau (違う) beat me to it!
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:37 pm
Hmmm. Seems to me that sucking no tit is much worse than sucking hind tit. So…”that doesn’t suck at all!” would be the worst. ;)
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:39 pm
Aaaaand for what it’s worth, I grew up in SoCal, beach & stoner cultures.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 5th, 2013 at 7:48 pm
Is it adult hour in here?
All this SUCK and FUCK and now TIT. My tender ears cannot handle such.
cicely (The Less...(somethingsomething)...Easels):
January 5th, 2013 at 7:49 pm
Ha! Today sucks so much less than yesterday and especially the day before!
Suck it, viral scum!
-
Plus, of course, they are Eeeeeevil!
-
I’ve always assumed—lazily, without evidence—that what sounds like “willy-nilly” started as “will he, nil he”, meaning “whether he wants to or not”.
-
And then Dalillama promptly confirms my “intuition” (or a close approximation to it). Score!
:)
-
Non-gendered chemical interactions on the cellular level?
-
Agreed, in all respects.
-
Improbable Joe:
January 5th, 2013 at 7:53 pm
Funny, I think I posted a comment about “sucking the hind teat” just yesterday… :)
And, I’m happy everyone enjoyed the conversation I sort of accidentally started.
chigau (違う):
January 5th, 2013 at 7:57 pm
cicely
You’ve been ‘lesser’ long enough.
Embrace your Greatness!
cicely (The Less...(somethingsomething)...Easels):
January 5th, 2013 at 8:02 pm
Used to be strongly stereotypically a woman’s job—one of those jobs that were “respectable”, like nursing, or teaching. In fact, I think the word “secretary” picked up considerable genderization thereby, since the “secretarial pools” tended to be full of women.
Nowadays, maybe not so much since it isn’t typing so much as it is “key-boarding”; and since Teh Tech is the province of Men (okay, maybe Nerdly Men, rather than Manly Men), it is being assimilated into Man Country.
In fact, this looks like an example of a larger phenomenon, to me—women can have “it”, so long as the men don’t want “it”; but when they do, they pee on it and claim it. Stereotypically-speaking. Also applies to the professional-level flutists being male, and something I read about in researching something for an SCA project—that brewing used to be an “in the home”, housewifely thing to do…until the time came when some men wanted to make a living at it. Then, suddenly, it was a man’s job, with apprenticeships, and guilds and such.
-
Lofty:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:11 pm
@1249, Dalillama, Schmott Guy
Derailleur hangers can sometimes be straightened with a suitable adjustable spanner after you undo the derailleur off it. However they are considered to be a “fuse” to prevent the frame being wrecked and are easily broken. I’ve had to strighten a few out in the bush and snapped a couple more. It is a good idea to obtain a matching spare hanger to put in your tool kit in any case.
Paul K:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:11 pm
cicely:
This reminds me of names, only in an opposite way. If men felt that something was not absolutely theirs, they also peed on it and threw it away. Carol, Meredith, Marion, Beverly, Evelyn; all used to be ‘boys’ names, until they weren’t, and then, fairly quickly, they were only used for girls. Times have changed with names, though: Austin, Jordan, Sydney, and lots of others, are used by anyone now.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:17 pm
Cicely, it was a serious fight for women to break into secretarial jobs – that was strictly the domain of men to start with and they weren’t at all happy when women wanted in on the action.
As for brewing, yes, being an alewife. It was one of the few alternatives to prostitution for a woman to make a living. However, the penalties were incredibly harsh if you were found brewing substandard product – imprisonment with the possibility of hanging. Them there men took their ale seriously, ya see.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:17 pm
Whoops
“Playing” with handcuffs
Jessa:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:20 pm
Aw damn. I missed a great discussion of gender expectations in different activities. Is it too late to add a personal “women don’t have bodily functions” story?
Dalillama, Schmott Guy:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:21 pm
lofty
My tool set is a socket wrench set and a fold out Allen wrench set.
chigau (違う):
January 5th, 2013 at 8:24 pm
Jessa
We’re listening.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 5th, 2013 at 8:27 pm
Jessa:
Please do. We are still discussing the topic.
****
As “evidence”, someone should bookmark this iteration of the Lounge for PZs next evo psych post.
cicely (The Less...(somethingsomething)...Easels):
January 5th, 2013 at 8:28 pm
Here ya go.
Knock yerself out.
-
The Horses are known to specifically target young girls.
My Little Pony is proof of this.
-
Just a sec; let me go get my recurve and sharp, pointy items. Don’t start without me!
-
…and pack it in garlic, and bury it at a crossroads….
-
“Sucking hind teat” isn’t gendered, and has a similar “getting stuck with the less-favorable end of the stick” ambiance as being the sucker, as opposed to the suckee.
-
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:28 pm
Jessa
It’s Never Too Late In The Lounge™
:)
birgerjohansson:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:32 pm
I recall an actor named Klaus Maria Brandauer. So in Central Europe “Maria” has not necessarily been gendered.
— —- —- —- —- —-
Stanislaw Lem’s visionary “Summa Technologia” from 1965 is apparently available free on-line in Russian: http://lib.ru/LEM/summa/summtitl.htm
A guy named Prangel has translated segments of it into English, but the whole book has never been translated.
—- —- —-
I am not certain cats are gendered. The bigger ones push the smaller ones around regardless of sex. And all of them spread mayhem when they are playful.
Ogvorbis: ບໍ່ມີຫຍັງຫັກ, ຕົກຕໍ່າ, ແລະມູນຄ່າ.:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:37 pm
Greebo would beg to differ.
Jessa:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:38 pm
My contribution to the “women don’t have bodily functions” mindset. It’s hilarious now, but was infuriating at the time.
A college boyfriend who had been working the night shift asked if he could crash at my place because he was too tired to drive to his place, which was another 30 minutes drive further. We both climbed into bed and fell asleep. About 4 AM, he hopped out of bed and said that he had to go home.
Later that day, I asked him why he left so suddenly.
Him: “I left because you farted while you were sleeping.”
Me: “You left because of that?”
Him: “Yes. And I think it’s over between us. I can’t go out with a girl that farts.”
Me: “You realize that all girls fart, right?”
Him: “[Last Girlfriend] didn’t.”
Me: “[Last Girlfriend] did, she just didn’t do it around you.”
Him: “No, [Last Girlfriend] never farted. Ever.”
To this day, I wonder if he ever found a magical non-farting woman to marry.
michaeld:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:38 pm
@caine
Asked a couple people older then myself out of curiosity they both said bummer but also “that’s a drag”.
Pteryxx:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:41 pm
cicely: oo, thankee! I don’t sign in but I found a naked skydiving video that I could watch anyway!
youtube video with bits blurred out
and yes, just about everything ripples in the wind blast, with bonus naked heel-kicking for joy after landing. ♥
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:43 pm
Michaeld:
Oh gods, that’s it! Thank you, that’s been making me nuts. How the hell did I forget that? (Nevermind, don’t want to know, getting old is scary enough.)
chigau (無味ない):
January 5th, 2013 at 8:50 pm
What a drag it is getting old…
isn’t there a song?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:51 pm
Chigau:
I seem to recall…
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:55 pm
…paging Janine!
Jessa
Wow…just wow. That’s pretty epic level of Wimmin Aren’t People!
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 8:58 pm
Portia:
Why? We know what it is – Chigau was teasing me.
Pteryxx:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:00 pm
NSFW
completely unrelated to anything ‘cept that I love to mention penis at every opportunity… I have a new hero. Kristen, inventor of The Hammer, bestest dildo ever. It’s lovely… *snif*
http://www.toymakerproject.com/hammer/
must-see gif
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:00 pm
And just in case, it’s Mother’s Little Helper by the Stones.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:06 pm
Caine,
As usual, a joke whooshed over my head. Sorry!
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 5th, 2013 at 9:09 pm
The last time I heard the phrase “what a drag”, it was Alice Cooper. Teenage Lament ’74 — “What a drag it is, in these gold lame jeans/Is this the coolest way to get through your teens”
…what? I kinda like me some schlocky shock-rock. (And someone needs to write an updated Teenage Lament.)
chigau (無味ない):
January 5th, 2013 at 9:10 pm
but I bet Janine knows which is the best youtube video.
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:16 pm
I ♥ Alice Cooper.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:18 pm
WMDKitty:
Alice was okay in the ’70s. He hadn’t gotten stupid yet.
Paul K:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:20 pm
Here’s something that just happened that I found kind of cute. I’ve been on Pharyngula more than usual in the past couple of days, and my son was curious about what I’m up to. He’s not that into computers, or screens in general, which is fine with us. But he’s heard the adults talking, and a little while ago, he asked,
‘What’s a sock-monkey, again?’ He finds it funny that this is something other than an actual monkey made from a sock. After I reminded him, he said, ‘And aren’t there also billygoats that cause a lot of trouble?’
It took me a second or two to see where that came from, and I said, ‘You mean trolls?’
Yeah, he’s kind of innocent.
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 5th, 2013 at 9:23 pm
Come on, Caine, the dude wrote a whole song about how he couldn’t sleep because clowns!
(And yes, said song was inspired by “The Simpsons”.)
Honestly what draws me in is the fact that he is obviously having fun with what he’s doing — and that fun is kind of infectious, whether the music is “stupid” or not.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:29 pm
WMDKitty, true enough. :D
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:50 pm
Vasco took a seriously bad scratch to the eye. He’s been on antibiotics (much to his dislike) and we have an appt. for early Monday. I hope he gets to keep his eye.
chigau (無味ない):
January 5th, 2013 at 9:56 pm
Gentle scritches for Vasco.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 5th, 2013 at 9:56 pm
Confession time.
I have no idea. Most time when I link to a song, it is the first time I have seen the video. I stopped watching videos on a regular basis back in 1984.
For example, one of my very favorite albums of the nineties is Cuckoo by Curve.I did not have cable during that decade and did not have regular internet until about five years ago. I had no idea what Toni Halliday.
As much as I love PJ Harvey, about the only video of her that I saw more then once was Fifty Ft Queenie. That was because it was being played on a loop at Tower Records.
As it stands, most videos do very little for me.
cicely (The Less...(somethingsomething)...Easels):
January 5th, 2013 at 10:02 pm
I would like to point out that my #1278, with its “Suck it, viral scum!”, was posted before I read the part of the thread dealing with the subject of suck.
We now return you to our regular program, already in progress.
-
chigau
I can’t! Not until I’ve bludgeoned this theme to death!
:)
-
michaeld:
January 5th, 2013 at 10:05 pm
Poor Vasco :(
Ogvorbis: ບໍ່ມີຫຍັງຫັກ, ຕົກຕໍ່າ, ແລະມູນຄ່າ.:
January 5th, 2013 at 10:05 pm
G’night, all.
Tomorrow be Monday Morning.
Ugh.
chigau (無味ない):
January 5th, 2013 at 10:06 pm
Janine
My gob is smacked.
cicely (The Less...(somethingsomething)...Easels):
January 5th, 2013 at 10:08 pm
Caine, I’m sorry to hear about Vasco. Hoping for the best.
-
Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries:
January 5th, 2013 at 10:09 pm
Whatever treat Vasco prefers, for Vasco.: (
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 5th, 2013 at 10:20 pm
Thanks, all. Yeah…the lens of his eye is visibly torn and he still has a lot of blood in it. No sign of infection yet, which is good. I just really, really don’t want to hear “that will have to come out”. Sigh.
Improbable Joe:
January 5th, 2013 at 10:32 pm
Poor Vasco! I hope the little guy is OK.
Nepenthe:
January 5th, 2013 at 10:37 pm
Pteryxx
That. Is. Amazing.
Want. So. Hard.
Pun. Intended.
—
Caine
:-( Tummy scratches for Vasco if he likes that sort of thing.
Rev. BigDumbChimp:
January 5th, 2013 at 10:56 pm
Can’t sleep, clown will eat me
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 5th, 2013 at 11:04 pm
Caine
“That needs to come out” are the five words nobody wants to hear from a doctor. Of any kind.
Give the critter extra loves and noms, man; he’s earned it.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 5th, 2013 at 11:08 pm
Some songs where I also enjoy the video.
The Rip-Portishead
Labrador-Aimee Mann
Sugar Water=Cibo Matto
God’s Away On Business-Cookie Monster
Sugarcube-Yo La Tengo
Gnumann+, Radfem shotgunner of inhuman concepts:
January 5th, 2013 at 11:11 pm
Rev. Bigdumbchimp:
Eating the zombie brains of patriarchy might lead to a really bad case of kuru.
Gnumann+, Radfem shotgunner of inhuman concepts:
January 5th, 2013 at 11:24 pm
Caine: so sorry to hear about Vasco. Would he like a small piece of viritual roquefort and a gentle scratch on the head?
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 6th, 2013 at 12:39 am
Thank you all, scritches and love have been delivered. Vasco mostly wants me to leave him be – he doesn’t want to see that syringe.
Caine, Fleur du mal:
January 6th, 2013 at 12:40 am
Oh, and Gnumann? Love the new nym addition.
Gnumann+, Radfem shotgunner of inhuman concepts:
January 6th, 2013 at 12:47 am
Caine: Thanks!
I just hope the theory that the old one was a warding spell is wrong.
Though for that individual I think perhaps “radfem” is just as good as a deterrent as “mansplaining”.
Caine, Fleur du mal +:
January 6th, 2013 at 12:54 am
Jessa:
I would have been laughing so damn hard during that exchange I wouldn’t have been able to talk at all.
athyco:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:58 am
I guess I wanna tell a story that is related to the Matt Dillahunty thread but doesn’t quite fit there. Lounge fare it is (while not as funny as I contemplate that idiot dude’s stupid retreat from a sleeping Jessa’s fart).
I received a D on my first college essay. It was later changed to a B-, but I didn’t have to change a word of it. So why did it get a D in the first place? I had tried to explain an encounter with arrant stupidity. When I met with the professor, he said, “Well, it seems as though you’re saying X happened.” And when I said that he was correct and that X had happened, he was agog. Ever since then, I’ve prefaced all such stories with “Now, this is arrant stupidity.” If I ever explain jacksul from the Dillahunty thread outside this crowd, I’ll need that preface.
But it happens elsewhere. My mom and her neighbor were having a right-of-way spat. He had his surveyor block their one lane road with his truck when he knew mom was leaving. When mom pulled to a stop, the surveyor jumped out of the ditch he’d been hunched in, slammed a hammer into mom’s windshield, and then called 911 to report that my mother had committed assault with a deadly weapon–to wit, a motor vehicle. The neighbor just “happened” to drive down the road just behind her to block her in. Mom (72) was arrested, fingerprinted, photographed…whole nine yards. It looked pretty bad because the surveyor had his two assistants saying that yes, she had driven into him. He went on about having his back to her and falling across the hood so that his arm flung back and smashed the windshield. Then, he said, he’d slid down and collapsed in front of the car.
Mom, however, had been taking pictures of surveyor and neighbor for several days due to this tiff. She had her disposable camera on the passenger seat when she stopped, and during the time the surveyor jumped from the ditch, she had picked it up to take a shot of the road being blocked. Shaken, she still took pictures of his truck, her smashed windshield, the uninjured surveyor, the assistants arrival (nope, they hadn’t been there in the first place). Then, when we got the prints back, it turns out that in her startled response to the smashing of the windshield, she also got a weirdly tilted and blurry image of the surveyor standing beside her car with the hammer in hand. She had thought that she had to advance the film because she’d forgotten to do that after her last picture before the incident.
How does this tie in with Nice Guy Syndrome at this level? A month later and while the case was still pending, just days after my mom had come home from a hysterectomy, she saw surveyor and neighbor on her property again. She sent my uncle down to tell them to get the hell off. The three men chatted for a while, then my uncle came back inside. Neighbor and surveyor stayed where they were! Uncle said, “Aw, they’re nice fellas; you don’t want bad feelings with your neighbors!”
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 6th, 2013 at 2:08 am
I’m bored, I want to play a game — console, computer, hand-held, don’t care, just want to immerse myself in another world for a while, you know? But I have too many things to choose from and can’t decide! Final Fantasy? Elder Scrolls? LotR Online? D&D Online? How about Solitaire? Or Bejeweled? Or, or, or, or…
Fuck… is this how other women feel when trying to decide what to wear?
And on a slightly embarrassing personal tangent, does anyone know how to get one’s bum to stop breaking out in spots like a teenager’s face on Prom night?
Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven:
January 6th, 2013 at 2:16 am
Athyco: PLEASE tell me your mom’s neighbor, the surveyor, and his assistants all served jail time for that.
athyco:
January 6th, 2013 at 2:43 am
It was pleasantly tangled once they realized that we had the upper hand, Azkyroth, although it took a little more than the photos. We got forensic work done on the windshield to prove that it was a blow from the side. There was the math on how fast he’d have to be hurled backwards to smash it in to the depth that was achieved (turning out to be impossible without grievous injury to him, and he had not a scratch or bruise).
The surveyor, since he could have implicated the neighbor in a conspiracy, got him to sign documents that released mom’s land from the right of way. If the road is ever widened to two lanes, it’ll all come from his side. In order to keep mom from pressing her case, the surveyor paid all expenses for her car and paid her an additional five grand over the five grand her attorney charged. The assistants paid her a grand each. We believe they got it from the neighbor. Surveyor and assistants pled down to a misdemeanor charge, but it was enough to make sure they won’t work government contracts.
rq:
January 6th, 2013 at 3:03 am
Jessa
Good story! You have since learned not to fart, right? ;)
Pteryxx re: THE HAMMER
Sounds like a lot of fun and experimentation. ;) Thanks for the link!
athyco
I like the ending to that story. :)
+++
Another day of just plain waiting on tenterhooks. Tomorrow should come faster.
Gnumann+, Radfem shotgunner of inhuman concepts:
January 6th, 2013 at 3:06 am
Topical antibiotics if it’s real bad (I don’t know which one’s used, so talk to a good physician).
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 6th, 2013 at 3:15 am
So… stock up on, and regularly apply, Neosporin or similar product. Doable. And I need to keep the claws trimmed way down so I can’t scratch new holes in me. I’m “ass”uming that minimizing time in a seated position is also of the good.
athyco:
January 6th, 2013 at 3:36 am
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning),
Umm…is this a recent occurrence? Happened to me once when I switched to a new laundry detergent.
WMDKitty (Always growing and learning):
January 6th, 2013 at 4:02 am
“recent” as in “hasn’t been a lifelong issue”, yes, I’d say it started in the last few years. I’m in a wheelchair, I spend a lot of time sitting, and I’m guessing the lack of airflow, coupled with marinating in my own sweat, is a big contributor to the issue. And it doesn’t help that I’m completely OCD about scratching itches (hence the now nonexistent claws). I’ll check, but I’m pretty sure we’re using the same detergent we were using before this started.
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 6th, 2013 at 4:23 am
Good morning
Caine
Best wishes to Vasco
+++
Ehm, no.
Maria as a first name is exclusively female.
But in so-called “Marienjahren” (Mary-years) all catholic children get “Maria” as a second name. Mr.’s uncle is “Hans Maria”.
Naming rules in Germany are a mess. There are no actual rules but guidelines and it’s uo to the individual state servant to decide. They have to be unmistakingly male or female, but that can be achieved via first or second name.
So when Mr.’s cousin was born they wanted to call her Marion. Never met a guy called Marion, but no, the idiot in office said, that’s not clearly female, you need a second one. So they decided on Marion Maria, Maria after her long dead grandmother. No, the idiot said, Maria can also be a second name for a guy. Still not enough.
It’s really funny because they also have to accept foreign names, even though nobody knows whetehr they’re male and female, but somebody who lives there would have to be able to recognize it…
Caine, Fleur du mal +:
January 6th, 2013 at 4:27 am
The actor John Wayne, his real name was Marion.
Beatrice:
January 6th, 2013 at 4:46 am
WMD Kitty,
I’m a bit of a compulsive scratcher too. My hands have been looking horrible for a month or two, but I keep scratching them. Whatever it is flares up a couple of times a year and doesn’t go away until I reach the appropriate proportion of medical cream and less scratching.
It probably has a lot to do with nerves. At least it’s not too cold, so there aren’t any open bleeding cracks on my hands.
I hope you get rid of your spots soon!
—-
Caine,
Poor Vasco. Holding thumbs that everything goes as well as possible.
ednaz:
January 6th, 2013 at 5:14 am
From way back in the thread…
-
Portia – It is so great you made the Fire Dept. take the course about sexual harrassment. And you did not apologize. Excellent!!
-
rq – Yikes! and Hooray! (as needed). So happy you’re close to getting a House. Because, House!
-
Tony – Loved hearing about your new job. Please feel free to update us as things get going. : )
-
Caine – Please give Vasco gentle scritches from me (if he likes that).
ednaz:
January 6th, 2013 at 5:16 am
Improbable Joe – Enjoyed the pictures of your new home. It’s just so great that you and BossNurse are there. : )
ednaz:
January 6th, 2013 at 5:20 am
betelgeux @ 1198 – Thank You for the link.
I signed the petition to strip Michael Nodianos (the Steubenville, OH student seen bragging about rape on video) of his scholarship to Ohio State University.
ednaz:
January 6th, 2013 at 5:33 am
Thank You, Horde, for the discussion about gender identity. So helpful. So enlightening.
rq:
January 6th, 2013 at 7:11 am
Caine
Scritches for Vasco, even though he don’t know me.
Also, re: John Wayne: really? Ha. Middlechild’s name is the (Latvian) version of Marion… And there’s the hockey player Marion Hossa, for what it’s worth!
WMDkitty
I’ve heard that sheepskin/lambskin is good for such things in wheelchairs. A former neighbour swore by them, considering she spent all of her time in a wheelchair, for reducing such itchinesses in uncomfortable spots. It won’t do you much good if you’re allergic to sheep, but…? Also, it may be the same detergent, but they may have changed a few ingredients (new formula?). They do that, sometimes. :/ Good luck!
ednaz
Thanks for the thoughts! Currently scrambling for the down-payment, which would have all been there in two months, but needs to be there now. Ick. :)
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 6th, 2013 at 8:22 am
Toddling in briefly to say that Marion is a male name and Marian is a female name.
Pronounced the same, IIRC.
Rather like the Francis/Frances names.
Ogvorbis: ບໍ່ມີຫຍັງຫັກ, ຕົກຕໍ່າ, ແລະມູນຄ່າ.:
January 6th, 2013 at 8:26 am
And how has anyone not linked to Marian the Librarian?
rq:
January 6th, 2013 at 8:48 am
Esteleth
Indeed. I’ve always heard it the other way around.
Ogvorbis
Due to my love of reading, middleson is actually named after this Marian ‘the Librarian’. ;)
Paul K:
January 6th, 2013 at 8:59 am
Wow, Giliell, those naming ‘rules’ sound more like arbitrary laws. This is another topic I’ve never given much serious thought to; it would not have occurred to me that anyone would give authority to a government official to tell a parent what they could name their child, especially to the degree you describe. (At least in Minnesota, even the last name is pretty much completely up to the parents.)
But, now that I am thinking about it, changing your name here is not a simple matter. It seems to be up to (almost) arbitrary authority in many places, and lots of them require you to give a compelling reason (a reason the arbitrary authority finds compelling) for changing your name. I guess the reason for this is to prevent fraud or other attempts at escape from justice, but it gets stupidly judgmental and arbitrary, and sexist and patriarchal, too.
Nick Gotts (formerly KG):
January 6th, 2013 at 9:20 am
I’ve just read through the sex/gender stuff – all very interesting, and I’ve certainly learned a lot about such issues here over the years. I usually say little or nothing in such discussions, because as a heterosexual cisgender man, conventionally masculine in appearance and moderately so in behaviour, I probably have less in the way of personal insights to provide than people who don’t slot so readily into the socially-approved categories. But a few things do come to mind:
1) I agree with whoever it was said the “genderbread person” text having man/woman for biological sex and female/male for gender identity seems the wrong way round. We refer to non-human animals as (fe)male, and decide which they are by looking at their genitalia/gonads/chromosomes. They don’t have gender identity in anything like the human sense.
2) Are there any aspects of woman/man gender differences (I know there are cultures that have more than two genders) that are found in all known cultures – e.g., men being more likely to use violence, or being more interested in police cars than in pans*?
3) A point about the biology/culture divide: it is part of human biology to be cultural, so it’s at least possible that all human cultures (at least until we change biologically in this respect) will have genders, even if there are no such aspects as referred to in 2.
4) While current notions of masculinity/femininity have considerable toxicity, there are aspects of the scale that seem like matters of style or personal expression, not necessarily connected either with sex, gender identity, or status.
5) Would it be problematic if, in the non-sexist, non-essentialist culture of the desired future, most people still fit into the current socially-approved categories? If I understand correctly, radical feminism would say that as long as the latter is the case, we can’t reach that desired future. (As a side note, I often see assertions that most people are basically bisexual, or would be bisexual if there were no social pressure against it; I’ve not seen any evidence for that claim – or its negation.)
6) There was some discussion of furries in relation to bodily dysmorphia. Possibly more relevant to discussion of trans* people’s dysmorphia (and I note in passing that I’ve read that there are quite a few transwomen and transmen who don’t feel the need or desire for surgical intervention) are physically healthy people who feel that they should be amputees, sometimes even engineering injuries that will lead to amputation. Stroke patients also sometimes feel that a limb no longer belongs to them, and have been known to try and throw it out of bed.
7) An interaction between orientation and gender role that I haven’t seen much discussed: whichever gender(s) you’re attracted to, there may also be patterns in your preferences for gender role in a partner. As far as I recall, all the women I’ve been seriously attracted to have been “moderately feminine” in appearance, demeanour and interests – neither “butch”, nor “very femme”. (The terms “butch” and”femme”are used in the genderbread person text, so I assume they are not considered disparaging.)
*See the famous “vervet” study.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 6th, 2013 at 9:57 am
Ace Of Spades as played by a band of robots.
rq:
January 6th, 2013 at 10:03 am
Nick Gotts
To answer, with great ignorance:
1) Animals have no gender identity that we know of, and yes, we label them male/female, not man/woman (man = human male, woman = human female, in bare, dichotomous terms…);
2) [Skipping because don't know but that's a very interesting question... Perhaps violence for men, but I know certain other things, even such as peeing while standing, can vary from culture to culture[citation needed, I know, memory is poor]]
3) Is biology cultural in any way? Which aspects? I’m curious as to your deeper meaning here. Intrigued, actually – to my mind, biology, in and of itself, cannot be cultural. But. You say it could be. How? (Please elaborate.)
4) Granted. I think that’s what it should be brought down to, where the non-toxic aspects of masculinity/femininity can be shared among everyone (or at least, for everyone to have a real choice in participating in certain non-toxic aspects of masculinity/femininity, even if certain activities are dominated by a particular gender), and the toxic aspects are eliminated as any kind of positive ways of expressing masculinity/femininity in any kind of way (such as, eliminating violence as a real masculine trait or large breasts in all women as a real feminine trait).
5) I think my answer here more or less follows from #4. I think, while radical feminists might disagree, there is no problem if this activity or that is in any way dominated by any one particular group – as long as all groups have real choice in whether they participate or not. How to guarantee this real choice in the face of (subconscious) peer pressure to conform because everyone else like you does this, I don’t know… A bit of an idealistic answer, I suppose.
6) Interesting point. Is the issue, then, neurological in nature?
7) Please elaborate – do you mean that, perhaps, whether I’m attracted to men or women, I’m actually attracted to people exhibiting a certain type of activity, like, say, a preference for neatness and cleanliness? Am I understanding this correctly?
Apologies in advance for any wrong phrasing or wrong wording that may be offensive. If I have phrased/worded something offensively, please let me know and I will correct myself in the future.
Giliell, professional cynic:
January 6th, 2013 at 10:40 am
I think in Germany the Italian “Mario” took the place for male, leaving “Marion” for women. Hardly anybody would see Marion as the actual male equivalent of Marianne.
Paul K
They are. They are guidelines on basis of which the individual clerk decides whether a name is OK or not.
They have to be unmistakably male/female
They must not shame the kid or expose them to ridicule (so, no, Kain, Judas and Rainbowblossom Sparklepoop are out of the game).
They must be names.
No more than five.
But they can also be foreign names, of course, which kind of renders most of the rules above invalid.
So I kow a Jersey (shörrsee), a Chelsea (shellsee) and a Brooklyn*
BUt yeah, the fucking clerk wields a lot of arbitrary power. Even better, fathers used to be able to register their kids alone, so there’s a bunch of people where the father either forgot the agreed upon name, simply changed it to the one he preferred or couldn’t spell the name…
*Serious stigma attached to English first names in Germany unless you have a legitimate excuse like an American/British parent)
Paul K:
January 6th, 2013 at 10:51 am
We’ve gone through some big naming changes here in the US in the past few decades, and I’m sure there was real social stigma against anything at all ambiguous before then, since most folks older than about 40 have pretty ‘normal’ names. But I wonder now if there was ever actual legal authority to tell people, no, that name is right out. In the 80s, we had a girl in our daycare center whose first name was ‘Tomorrow’s Sunshine’. Everyone, including her parents, called her Sunny.
Eurasian magpie:
January 6th, 2013 at 10:54 am
/delurk
@Esteleth
Do you mean historically? Because there are plenty of female Marions in the English speaking world. Off the top of my head, the athlete Marion Jones and the Master Chef Australia contestant Marion Grasby.
Beatrice:
January 6th, 2013 at 10:57 am
In general, I am against giving some clerk arbitrary power over names, but what to do when parents want to name their children Smelly Sparklepoop and Adolf Hitler?
rq:
January 6th, 2013 at 11:04 am
Beatrice
Appeal to the parents’ sense of taste? Although it looks like they don’t have any.
Naming rules are pretty arbitrary here, too – they have to follow Latvian language laws, etc., etc., no ridicule and all that wonderful stuff.
Which is kind of amusing (if it weren’t infuriating), since last year the Language Commission came out with an edict that consonant combinations foreign to Latvian (-tt-, -kk- etc.) are no longer allowed, excepting in cases of compound names – which promptly eliminated the traditional, German-derived ‘Otto’ from being allowed (have to spell it Oto). As a matter of fact, any boy names not ending in -s should be eliminated, yet they’re still allowed to be used.
And no particularly strange names, although the lists of weirdest names they publish each year are quite interesting.
So yeah, a lot of arbitrary power, depends on the officials in your region. Some of them have great tolerance, others have none. Others enjoy chocolate boxes or money to increase their level of tolerance.
Interestingly, English (or other foreign names) are to be Latvianized – that means good old Brian becomes Brains, and Wayne becomes Veins (a la Veins Greckis). You tell me what’s wrong with that scenario…
Pteryxx:
January 6th, 2013 at 11:44 am
well… my knee-jerk response is, how do you make a distinction between what gender you’re attracted to, and what gender role you’re attracted to? Say if someone dresses and acts just like gender A, but has the genitals that go with gender B, how would that affect anyone’s attraction when they don’t actually know what the genitals are? And if you have to choose one or the other, which is more important? (Generally one makes an assumption, and usually that’s a safe assumption – but it still doesn’t follow per se.)
Personally, for me it’s blurred: I’m most attracted to genderqueerness, in whichever direction, alongside a middling preference for male-shaped bits. (Which fortunately are available to anyone in a wide variety of shapes, sizes, and materials, and some even light up. <_< )
Paul K:
January 6th, 2013 at 11:44 am
Beatrice
Yeah, that’s a tough one. You really have to wonder about what’s in the minds of parents like that, but I know some are out there.
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 6th, 2013 at 11:47 am
Let them? Hopefully it’ll be a good incentive for the kids to learn to hate their shitty parents sooner rather than later.
Beatrice:
January 6th, 2013 at 11:50 am
The more I learn about gender, gender roles and sexuality, more I’m convinced that heterosexuality wouldn’t be so common if it weren’t for socialization.
Beatrice:
January 6th, 2013 at 11:51 am
Ing,
Not much use in hating them when you can’t leave them.
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 6th, 2013 at 11:54 am
@Beatrice
yeah but if you’re arguing what say a judge can do without over stepping into authoritative authority. Other than ear marking them for a dyfus check in the only thing I can see is hoping that the selfish jackholery of the parents makes the children more likely to reject the world view they’ll be raised with.
And trust that the kid will shortly develop a nickname to hide behind. My school had poor Richard “Daniel” Seamen
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 6th, 2013 at 12:01 pm
In a scifi setting I’m thinking about writing if I can overcome self esteem issues and convince myself it might be worth anything that was one of the background details I thought up. Gender and sexuality is a lot less rigid due to both cultural drift and contact with aliens irrevocably changing the entrenchment of binary gender. In the one super society that most of it takes place in humans are the only ones that have a culturally significant divide between male and female: one species is near humanoid but hermaphroditic and thus monogendered, one has an alien view of self that has a group being a ‘person’ rather than an individual so they lack a concept of gender, one is a race of synthetic androids and if they had any dimorphism long abandoned it, one starts out as male/female larva but lacks the distinction in the adult stage due to anglerfish like mating, and one has male and female sexes but due to a lack of dimorphism lacks a concept of gender.
The end result is that human gender roles are blurred a lot more and sexuality is less labeled and more fluid. One joke element I was considering using was have the LDS Church still exist, but having changed so much from modern day that they consider polyamorous bisexuality their traditional values with most members ignorant or apathetic to the earlier stances of the church
Beatrice:
January 6th, 2013 at 12:07 pm
Ing,
Yeah, I realize it’s better to err on the side of letting people name their kids whatever they like. I still feel sorry for the kids that suffer as a result.
There was an Adolf Hitler in the news last year, if I remember correctly. Although, his parents were neonazis, so even if they had not been allowed to give him that name, he would still be indoctrinated with the same shit.
Serendipitydawg(rebel without paws):
January 6th, 2013 at 12:18 pm
@Caine,
I think the fact that finishing schools never apply to men pretty much indicates why this is the approach to take. There are manners, which one hopes we all have, and there is blind conformity to some stereotypical ideal, which I can certainly manage without.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 6th, 2013 at 12:19 pm
Nick @1354:
Your entire post was interesting, but this part really struck a chord with me.
I’ve often wondered in the past exactly what qualities in a man that I’m attracted to. When I first came out of the closet (and for years after), I was attracted to some ideas of masculinity. I liked muscular guys. I liked guys who didn’t display femininity (whether through their speech, mannerisms or poise). I used to have a negative opinion of gay men who displayed {what I thought of as} feminine traits. When people would guess what my type was, often people would say “jock”, which brings to mind a very traditionally masculine image. Yet even back then, I wasn’t always interested in someone of that nature. I’ve dated guys who physically do not match the image of a jock and been very attracted to them. Looking back, one of the most attractive men I ever dated, MH fit the jock image to a >T<. We didn't last long because I found him terribly boring. He never wanted to talk about anything. He rarely discussed his opinion of anything. Getting him to open up about where he wanted to eat dinner was a grueling task (his favorite response was "wherever you want"…ARGH). I didn't feel any chemistry with him outside of the bedroom and it bothered me (this was probably when I started paying more attention to how many qualities and interests I shared with someone, which meant I had to engage them in conversation before we jumped into a relationship).
As I've gotten older, and more importantly, as I've been educating myself about toxic masculinity, sexism, patriarchy, misogyny, et al, I have come to expand my horizons with regard to the type of man that I like. I don't think it has been conscious either. When I briefly dated K, I remember thinking "he's got several feminine mannerisms, yet they don't bother me like they would have in years past." I've also come to value an individuals' ability to converse effectively and have an informed opinion about a variety of topics.
This shift from valuing the physical 'jock' image to valuing intellectual pursuits has been gradual, but has opened me up to different types of men. I *do* still value physical appearance. I do still love looking at men who are physically fit (though that has more to do with me being interested in fitness, and wanting to share that interest with someone else).
Gosh, I love this thread.
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 6th, 2013 at 12:19 pm
Waiting for the first child to be named Pinky Pie.
Or has that already happened?
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 6th, 2013 at 12:28 pm
Pteryxx:
If I’m understanding you correctly (which I could very well NOT be)–If I encounter a man who dresses and acts like a woman, but has the genitals of a man, I do not think I would be attracted to them.
Likewise, there are some women who have small breasts, who dress and act in ways that are masculine, yet I don’t find myself attracted to them either.
But now I’m wondering what it means to “act” like a man or woman…
And I’m wondering if toxic masculinity has influenced which kind of men I’m attracted to…
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 6th, 2013 at 12:29 pm
cicely:
Actually, the genderization reversed after WWI (IIRC). Until the late 1800′s, only men were secretaries, because of course, feeble lady brainz couldn’t handle “real” education, much less complex business and technical knowledge. It provided income and access to the rich and powerful for men who had the right education but whose circumstances required them to find a source of income.
The first women secretaries were seen as unwomanly and decried for entering the “male sphere,” which would coarsen them and leave them unfit for marriage and motherhood. As more began entering the field, it became a job with less status, and men began leaving/choosing not to enter it. Once it was considered unimportant and seen as “taking care of” a powerful man, then it became one of the acceptable jobs for women.
—
Caine:
More scritches for Vasco.
—
rq:
Best of luck with the house!
—
Paul K:
It took me 16 months to get a MN driver’s license because one can’t just transfer a license from another state if your birth certificate doesn’t match exactly.
My PA license had [First Name] [Birth Surname] [Married Surname], but my birth certificate had [First Name] [Second Name] [Birth Surname]. Even though every other ID and document has my current name, I couldn’t transfer without either showing “a clear and direct connection” between my birth certificate and ID or using my birth names (which I haven’t used in 25+ years). My divorce decree wasn’t acceptable because it only had [FirstName] [MarriedName], so they wanted my marriage license, which I could only get by going to the PA courthouse where it was registered (and showing photo ID) — which I finally was able to do during my summer visit and cost me $18. Ridiculous!
In PA, both names are yours for life and you can use either on official documents.
—
Giliell:
I wish there were some controls on naming, just so kids aren’t given truly hideous or wildly inappropriate names (like Adolf Hitler), but…wow, that’s a lot of power for a low-level clerk!
—
rq:
O.O I would so have named my kids Brian and Wayne just to end up with Brains and Veins.
I would love to know what Ryan, Patrick, and Melanie would be in Latvian….
Louis:
January 6th, 2013 at 12:29 pm
Pteryxx, #1302,
THAT IS BRILLIANT!!!!! I showed my wife, she was suitably impressed.
Caine,
Give Vasco my best. I hope he survives the experience as unscathed as possible.
Louis
rq:
January 6th, 2013 at 12:30 pm
Tony
I sincerely recommend you read some of Natalie Reed’s blog. She has a great post (which, I am sorry to say, I am too lazy (and busy) to find myself) about what you comment here – one’s changing view of what counts as attractive, and how that ties in with preconceptions or stereotypes held, and what happens when those stereotypes are broken down and perspective is widened.
Alright, since I’m actually procrastinating here, I’ll see if I can find it. She says it much better than I ever could, anyway.
rq:
January 6th, 2013 at 12:31 pm
Tony
Oh, look! It popped right up as if called by name. :)
Pteryxx:
January 6th, 2013 at 12:41 pm
Tony: for what it’s worth, I’m damn sure that toxic masculinity has affected which kind of women I’m not attracted to. I’m a loud brash jocky type, I tend to like other loud brash jocky types, but I overestimate the guys and underestimate the gals, if you see what I mean.
(Like Louis. I figured he’d appreciate that light-up programmable dick. <3 )
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 6th, 2013 at 12:43 pm
rq:
Thank you.
I’m reading it now.
Already I have new questions percolating in my noggin.
I’ve come to realize that many of the friendships I’ve made over the years have been with women, more than men. A few weeks ago, I noted that it was funny how so many women I’ve worked with over the years feel comfortable talking to me about various topics. Moreover, a great many of them have expressed happiness at working with me (going so far as to check the schedule to see if it’s me they’re working with). I don’t know if I bond with women better or faster, or if there’s some other kind of connection, but I wish I could encounter more guys who I’m attracted to, but can forge a connection with, as I do with many women.
rq:
January 6th, 2013 at 12:50 pm
Tony
It may also be the lack of toxic masculinity within you that makes you easier for women to be with – non-threatening, as opposed to trying to enforce some sort of rigid gender-identity out of women. Possibly because you have no demands of them (sexually speaking). You come across as someone easy to be with – and that’s just your online impression. ;)
Paul K:
January 6th, 2013 at 12:51 pm
Socio-gen:
That’s just stupid! I grew up in Minnesota, but haven’t lived there in about a decade (though I still cross the border every day to work there). Imagine the nightmares if the voter ID amendment would have passed.
You brought up surnames. When we married, my wife did not ‘take my name’, mostly because I didn’t want her to. She was much more traditional (at the time) than I was. It just seemed wrong to me. Our kid also has her last name, because she carried and birthed him; I didn’t. (My first name is one of his two middle names. Hyphens are a pain; and again, she birthed him.) We lived for a year in New Mexico, and many people there felt very free to challenge my wife (never me) about her name, to the point of questioning whether we were ‘really’ married, or if she was ‘committed’ to me. Folks also asked if I was my son’s father (which made a little more sense, I guess, until you see us together).
We found out later that Minnesota has one of the highest (the highest?) rates of women keeping their names at marriage, so it was just not questioned there.
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 6th, 2013 at 12:56 pm
Gaaaaaah.
I am awash in confusing thoughts now.
I’m starting to wonder about sexual roles and how they’ve been gendered. For most of my sex life, I’ve been a bottom (some of the times I’ve tried to top, I’ve >ahem< lost interest…) I've shocked quite a few people, because they assume that since I'm a muscular guy, that I'm naturally the top. I haven't had much interest in being a top. At times, I've thought it was too much work (not that I'm inclined to just lay there).
But now I'm wondering if there's any connection between being a top/bottom and sexual gender roles. Can I change? Do I want to change? What influenced me to be more comfortable in this sexual gender role over another?
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 6th, 2013 at 1:03 pm
rq:
It’s funny you say this, because I’ve had people (usually men) allude to the opposite. Usually it’s people I don’t know who approach me.
Scenario:
I’ve just gotten off work at 1230 and stop by Emerald City (I tend to prefer going to gay bars over straight bars). I sit at the end of the bar, with my drink in hand, by myself. Sometimes I play the video poker machine that many bars have. Whatever I’m doing, I’m minding my own business. I have had many people approach me and tell me I’m being arrogant or standoffish or stuck up. Every single time, I’m taken aback. I’m just trying to unwind after work, and I’m being attacked with accusations of arrogance?
Janine: Hallucinating Liar:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:04 pm
Have a laugh.
From the same pastor who declared that masturbation is homosexual behavior because you have having sex with someone of the same gender.
Pteryxx:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:09 pm
um, Tony, just my three cents here, but as long as you and your partners are fine with it, why worry about whether you need to or want to change your own preferences by an act of will? It’s kind of circular, no? My preferences have kind of migrated a bit along with my partner’s, with talk and experimentation and learning to be more accepting of ourselves (much like Natalie describes, I think). Maybe being accepting of one’s preferences, and shifts thereof, is instrumental to permitting such shifts to occur. (The Zen of sexuality!)
rq:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:11 pm
Tony
Hmm. Very interesting (@1383)! I’ve been attacked the same way (stand-offish, arrogant) simply for wanting to be alone… Maybe you have a stern I’m-relaxing face, and that, together with appearing in a location where many might assume you should be approachable, is what provokes (unintentionally) these kinds of comments. Like how women are supposed to be approachable anytime, anywhere, and when they aren’t (i.e., aren’t smiling, aren’t laughing at someone’s jokes, aren’t chatting to everyone in sight), they’re labelled as stuck up, arrogant, and stand-offish.
Also, glad your brain is getting a work-out. ;)
rq:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:18 pm
Tony, Also, what Pteryxx said. :)
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 6th, 2013 at 1:18 pm
Pteryxx:
I feel somewhat limited in sexual options, and I wish to be able to experience and enjoy a greater variety of them.
Part of my inability to do so (I think) is that I’ve never had a consistent sexual partner for longer than 3 months (and the last time was 10 years ago) to really explore with. One night stands and Friends with Benefits don’t seem to lend themselves to the type of sexual exploration I’m thinking of (which isn’t extreme by any means).
Paul K:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:25 pm
When I see candid photos of me just sitting by myself, even I think, ‘damn, what was I so ticked about?’ I’ve been with her for 21 years, but I still sometimes ask my wife ‘Are you okay?’, based on her relaxed, I’m-just-sitting-here-thinking face, because to me it looks sort of sad. She does not like this, and always puts on her oh-you-idiot-Paul face.
I also agree with rq about the setting. Tony, do you get this reaction very often elsewhere?
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:26 pm
Paul K:
I worked really hard on the vote no campaign. Mostly by telling people that, if it did, I would have been one of the people prevented from voting (if I hadn’t been able to afford a trip to PA).
What really ticked me off was that, when I finally had all the documents they wanted, I got lectured by the clerk at the DMV for not doing it sooner. Apparently, the state could fine me some ridiculous amount for not doing it within 30 days. I told the clerk to do it, because I would take it to the Supreme Court before I paid a dime. Their stupid rules were the reason I had to wait so long because I would not use a name that would utterly fuck up and make useless every other piece of identification I carry.
Um, right, because changing your name is a sign of how committed you are to the relationship? If that were the case, every marriage license should include a space to enter your new “couple” name which is different from (or a combination of) your birth surnames. That way both parties have to prove their commitment.
Probably because they have to go to court to change their names back, in the event of divorce. I was boggled when a friend explained she had to do this to retrieve her birth surname, as if she were completely changing her name. From what I understand, a lot of women here keep their name to avoid the hassle and use their married surname only socially.
In PA, you just go to the DMV with your birth certificate and they re-issue your license/photo ID with that name. Then you have photo ID to use to change everything else.
LykeX:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:31 pm
Guys, a question: How do you submit suggestions for site alterations/functionality issues? I mean, is there an admin email address or something?
Tony the Queer Shoop (proud supporter of Radical Feminism):
January 6th, 2013 at 1:33 pm
Paul:
No. I suspect that’s partly because in most other locations I’m engaging people, whereas, at a bar, I’m often running solo and keeping to myself.
It’s like there’s an expectation that if you’re at a bar, you’re supposed to engage people.
Paul K:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:33 pm
We had no idea about this at the time we got married (in 1998), but it makes sense. That is just fucked up.
Pteryxx:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:35 pm
Tony: yeah, I don’t think I can offer any insight there, because I’ve no experience of casual partnering. On reflection, what wanderings I’ve done were only possible in a relationship with enough trust to express doubts about our sexualities in the first place. (Hasn’t ‘Questioning’ been a sort of orientation sometimes?) But my fantasies migrated also, for what that’s worth.
Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:39 pm
…are we ever going to get a new lounge? I don’t think I’ve ever seen one get this big.
AshPlant:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:40 pm
I don’t see the problem with that tweet, Janine. God did not give us a mind – true. So we can use it to question and deny his…
Oh.
I see. He accidentally missed a vital piece of punctuation, and it’s funny because that leaves one space to interpret the tweet as saying something extremely stupid? Right? No? Shit.
Socio-gen, something something...:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:41 pm
rq:
I think you’re probably right. It seems like certain locations cause more of the “what’s wrong” or “why aren’t you having fun” reactions from other people. I notice it most often when I’m sitting in the coffee house up the street, having some tea, and enjoying the music. People will ask what’s bothering me, or say something like, “If you don’t like the band/musician, you can leave” when actually I like them quite a bit and was just listening intently. I guess my I’m relaxing face looks sad or annoyed to other people.
I have had people tell me that my I’m concentrating face looks angry. If I’m studying in my office, people will be timid about knocking on the door or will apologize for interrupting me, and then they’re confused when I greet them with a smile and am happy to see them.
Cannabinaceae:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:41 pm
Whoah! Long Lounge!
‘Rupt!
But I couldn’t not drive by and remark that I liked SG’s ideas about the “food-touching-food” yuk that some people have. Also, there was some talk about duck and goose cooking. I find duck gives you not all that much meat for the effort it takes, though I’ve only done it once and would surely do better the next time. I didn’t cause any fires or other disasters on my attempt; OTOH, I felt all greased up in duck fat for the next day or so. Oh, and on the AA thing, I believe the benefits my brother gets are the frequent socializing with people who aren’t going to tempt him into drinking again rather than any particular AA component. He goes to meetings several times a week, and has fallen off the wagon only about three times in the past fifteen years.
There was something else, but I fear portcullising and have to go get my four daily shots of espresso (yes, I’m quite late today!), so: toodles!
LykeX:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:44 pm
@Janine
Driscoll? That name sounds familiar. Am I supposed to know him?
Paul K:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:45 pm
The only time in my life when I spent lots of time in bars was when I was a bouncer in college. People didn’t usually want to engage me ;)
(I only hit someone once, even though people hit — or tried to hit — me lots of times. I hit him because he and two friends had me on the floor, and he was hitting me in the face over and over. It didn’t really hurt; he was too drunk, and in too poor a position to cause pain. I only hit him to get his attention, since yelling in his ear wasn’t working. I found that people who were drunk enough to try to hit the bouncer were almost invariably too slow and clumsy to do much damage. But this was a college bar, not a rough place, really, [though when I started, there were a couple of fights per week] and most of the patrons knew I had the power to ban them if they went too far, and I used it.)
Paul K:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:51 pm
Oh, and that bar was in Morris, Minnesota.
rq:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:52 pm
Paul K
re: neutral faces
I still ask the Husband from time to time if he’s pissed off, because that’s what he looks like when he’s a bit tired. Yeah, he doesn’t like it!
michaeld:
January 6th, 2013 at 1:53 pm
@LykeX
Mark Driscoll is a well enough known conservative pastor says a lot of stupid stuff that gets picked up in the atheist blogosphere. I’m sure you’ve seen something about him or his church before.
Nepenthe:
January 6th, 2013 at 2:01 pm
Pteryxx
Personally, I don’t, because it’s pretty much irrelevant to me. Crushes and lovers have ranged from hyper femme women to standard issue dudebros*. I’d like to see other people’s reactions to this, because while I can sort of get gender presentation preferences, I really don’t understand genital preferences. (Not that I judge. I mean, some people eat olives for crying out loud…. okay, I sort of judge olive eaters.)
*Clearly I have made some bad decisions.
rq:
January 6th, 2013 at 2:02 pm
Socio-gen
I’ve been told I look downright intimidating, when thinking or concentrating or reading (people sometimes think I’m always reading terrible, serious books). Combine that with a preference for dry/sarcastic humour and a belief that I have a terrible smile (hence, a dislike of smiling), and it’s no wonder people believe me to be hostile and anti-social… ;) Keeps the rabble away! :)
Paul K:
January 6th, 2013 at 2:04 pm
Socio-gen:
I meant to respond to this earlier. We would sometimes come back at them with ‘well, he didn’t change his name for me, either’. To which we would get looks of confusion or anger. They never confronted me on this issue, but I was often with her when they did (which has its own weirdness), so we both got to enjoy their looks.
Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine":
January 6th, 2013 at 2:04 pm
Not sure if it’s helpful to the discussion but just chiming in that to my POV the question just feels so strange. Ever since I’ve felt secure with sexuality the idea of gender not matching parts or anything like that doesn’t arise to me.
Paul K:
January 6th, 2013 at 2:07 pm
rq
Weirdly, when I read, and especially when I watch TV, I often have a stupid-looking grin on my face. And I really don’t like most of what I see on TV.
PZ Myers:
January 6th, 2013 at 2:08 pm
Whoops. NEW THREAD, at last.