Comments

  1. says

    PZ, do you have the thunderdome and lounge set up on some sort of bot or queue system, that automatically posts when the previous one hits some sort of comment limit, or do you have to stay up 24/7 with a squidly eye on them? Because that latter bit sounds exhausting (as, I admit, does the idea of trying to actually keep up reading either of those and their billions of comments a day.)

    Okay, apparently I’m hyper. Hello everyone, I rarely comment but I read here all the time, lovely to meet you again, I just never say anything because I’d forget to keep up with the replies and y’all might think I chickened out of an argument when I really just got distracted by skyrim or something.

  2. says

    PZ, do you have the thunderdome and lounge set up on some sort of bot or queue system, that automatically posts when the previous one hits some sort of comment limit, or do you have to stay up 24/7 with a squidly eye on them?

    PZ does some of his best work in airline lounges. Or so I hear.

  3. pschoeckel says

    Looking forward to Christmas day with family and friends with the exception of my cousin’s salvation armyist wife. Need to work on my avoidance strategy. For those of you who celebrate something or nothing, I wish you good cheer.

  4. carlie says

    Happy holidays! Mulled wine and warm pie for all! Twinkly lights! Good health and good cheer!

    Oh, wait, I’m in Thunderdome.

    Here are a few flu-infected used tissues I have here, if anyone needs a good excuse to sit the holidays out and stay at home ignoring people.

    ;)

  5. says

    No, it’s not automated. I add threads manually, as needed. As the regulars will testify, sometimes I’m not so watchful and threads that I’m supposed to end at around 666 comments don’t get noticed until they hit a thousand or so.

  6. hyoid says

    Just finished “Evolution: Making Sense of Life” Wild ride for me! It took a few months of bedtime reading. Now I’m going through it again, answering chapter objectives, end questions and short answers. Almost done with chapter 1. It clears up a lot of my muddled together thoughts. Thank you, Professor Myers, very much for turning me on to this Textbook. I’m also reading “Parasite Rex”. I shiver when I feel my stomach rumble.

  7. blar says

    OK, I had to go last night, and it looks like I wont have much time to play online tonight either. Apologies for the following wall of text, and for returning to previous topics. I will come back and respond as soon as I can.

  8. blar says

    Beatrice,

    Well, your job, blar, is to answer Joe Public’s stupid questions. If Joe Public goes on a private blog, gets in the middle of a discussion about feminism and expects everyone to halt and answer whatever stupid questions he has- it’s not our job to answer and we don’t owe him the courtesy of being polite to him.

    Well, quite. Anyone who thinks they are owed politeness needs to examine their own head. The choice of whether or not to be polite lies in the hands of the typist, and the merits of the opposing strategies (politeness/aggressiveness) have been discussed elsewhere. I got a lot out of those discussions.

  9. blar says

    Tony,

    I think one of the reasons for the Feminist Link Roundup in the sidebar is to provide a handy resource for n00bs. That way discussions do not get bogged down in repetitive 101 level explanations.

    Its probably the only reason it is there! I looked for it as part of my response here, but because I was scanning looking for the word feminist it took me 2 attempts to discover that it is in fact called “Social Justice Llink Roundup”

    Before I reread your comment and as part of another response which I planed for Gnumann, I did an experiment. I opened FTB, and began searching for any link entitled FAQ, [subject] 101, “Read this before posting”, etc. Something which a n00b in the real world might actually look for. Have a go. What can you find?

    One of the problems that we have at work is presenting the FAQ page in such a way as to make it obvious and useable; This facilitates avoidance of the tedious repetition that is the reason why the FAQ is there in the first place. If no-one actually bothers to read the FAQ then sure, they have to bear some of the responsibility for that, but if I post an FAQ in a dark corner of our website with a link that doesn’t have F A or Q in its description then I have to take some of the blame for myself.

    FAQs with many subjects and links become burdened by their complexity and therefore useless because what you want is for the user to be able to find their question, get their answer, and get up to speed with rest of the herd. FAQ pages come in a variety of formats. Some are good, and some are woefully shite. Try it yourself. Visit company websites to see what works and what doesnt. Then model an FAQ page on what does.

  10. blar says

    If the infection is severe enough, and there is no good alternative, it might be necessary to accept false positives. Especially if the cure is not too severe.

    If we have found no good alternative, does that mean we should stop looking? The cure is not severe, I agree. FeeFee pain isn’t real pain, but no cure should be administered without exploring and understanding the myriad side effects. What side effects might there be?

    In the future, you might want to hold off asking these question if you’re unable to formulate an alternative. At least if you don’t want to come off as JAQ’ING.

    In fact, I have been waiting for the topic to be addressed in the hope that I can break through a dead end in my own thinking. John Morales came so close, but then became bored before he got there which is what started this exchange in the first place. I couldn’t care less about whether I come across as JAQing because I know that I am not. By way of an alternative (and following on from what I said above to Tony about FAQ formatting and availability)…

    The crux of the problem is that the educated must be the educators, but the uneducated are many, and the educated are tired. I have an idea. It is called FAQbot.

    Lets say we have someone who needs to be directed to the FAQ on the subject of privilege, FAQbot exists, and is owned and implemented throughout FTB. Instead of typing “read the FAQ” we type {summonFAQbot[privilege]}. FAQbot could then appear as a posted comment, saying “it looks like you are having problems with the concept of privilege. How can I help you to understand your error” with links embedded to different aspects of the FAQ that deal with privilege.

    Maybe that would gum up comment threads. Perhaps given that the thread knows personal email addresses, FAQbot could be delivered by email as a sort of PM without compromising anonymity. This would not only be a method of sending people direct to the relevant section of the FAQ (making it more likely that they will actually read it), but would also be amusing, perhaps taking the tedium out of the process. The goal is to reduce as much as possible the number of keystrokes, emotional investment, and therefore expended energy, required in correcting misunderstanding.

    I can haz credz now?

  11. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    blar:
    In this day of access to information, I do not believe the onus for teaching people-outside of institutions of learning-is necessarily on the educated. The basic legwork to acquire an understanding of a topic should be done by the individual.

  12. Beatrice says

    blar,

    Well, your job, blar, is to answer Joe Public’s stupid questions. If Joe Public goes on a private blog, gets in the middle of a discussion about feminism and expects everyone to halt and answer whatever stupid questions he has- it’s not our job to answer and we don’t owe him the courtesy of being polite to him.

    Not the bolded part of my previous statement, not just the politeness bit.

  13. citpeks says

    Last night I was in a discussion with a friend at a bar. He was raised without any religion and does not consider himself a believer, but he still insisted that religion is valuable because of community blah blah blah. It was a friendly discussion and since it was his birthday I decided not to bare my fangs. I said that there were plenty of good rebuttals to his position that are far more succinct and compelling than anything we were going to come up with that late and with that many drinks in us, and that I would email him links. So, folks, I’m crowd sourcing this one. I know the arguments are out there. I remember reading them. I’ve browsed some archives. I am just not finding the ones I was remembering on this topic. Anyone with a fresher memory of these posts able to point me there? I vaguely remember PZ, Greta, and maybe Camels with Hammers tackling this one after Alain deBottons book came out.

    Thanks in advance.

  14. pschoeckel says

    Citpeks,
    I used to be the same way as your friend. The only time religion was discussed in our home was while my mother was studying anthropology and Egyptology. Religious ceremonies were something other people did and we didn’t infringe on their beliefs. It all seemed harmless and I used to think that the beauty of religious artwork and the sense of community that some people seemed to get from their church more than made up for whatever shortcomings religion had. I never saw religion as a bad thing, but I never gave it much thought.
    After reading many of the blogs here at FTB, WEIT and a few others I can now see how damaging religion really is. I’m certain if you point your friend to any of the popular blogs or Dawkins converts corner he will come around quickly.

  15. Akira MacKenzie says

    Me? I’m stuck working until 19:45, then I’m going to try to see my sister to exchange gifts and eat lasagna (she has a weird idea of what should be served on holidays). Well, at least we shall see if her recipe is any match to mine!!!

    Fortunately, I was able to get tomorrow off. There will be ham, and liquor, and pomp this Feast of Alvis. (He killed for your sins.) I shall spend it watching various Holiday-related MST3K/Rifftrax/Cinematic Titanic movies while trying to avoid listening to the insane right-wing rantings of my father and his usual dinner guests: his old buddy from high school/college and his girlfriend.

    Ah! The Holidays!

  16. eyeroll says

    Pschoeckel, I also will be practicing my avoidance manuevers tomorrow. My 24 yr old nephew has recently been SAVED, ANNOINTED, FILLED WITH etc, etc. As much as I love him, I just cannot bear what those evangelicals have done to him. He was the perfect target for them; young, uneducated, frustrated, lost….. all that young man stuff.

  17. DLC says

    I hate in-store security cameras that show you, or worse, show the back of you. I really did not need to see how bad my hair looks.
    [/topic]
    As we used to say in my old job: “Get fucked! in the manner of your preference and by the person you most wish to. ”
    [/topic]
    Happy Newtonmas !

  18. citpeks says

    Pschoeckel,
    Thanks for weighing in. Having been raised in a private church school k-12 I feel like I had to fight for my atheism, so it can be a little jarring encountering folks like you used to be or my friend from last night who take it for granted and don’t really get what the big deal is. So, when I try discussing topics such as this with such people I have a hard time articulating my position because I am so flabbergasted at their lack of appreciation for their privilege of not having had religion forced on them for so many years. Anybody else feel like it can be harder to explain yourself to a casual non believer who ostensibly agrees with you than it is to relate to the theist on the opposite end of the spectrum?

  19. citpeks says

    Tony @ 18

    Thanks. The Santa theme makes it all the more appropriate. I’ll definitely point him towards this one.

  20. John Morales says

    blar earlier:

    It seems that you ran out of enthusiasm just as you got to the meat. You did a good job of highlighting why we can disregard the actual point that XA was making while studiously avoiding the point itself.
    […]
    Ive seen your work before, and I was disappointed that you only challenged his approach and not the point itself. How would you have finished it up? Was it boredom that stopped you from proceeding, or did he have a point that you could not assail?

    later:

    In fact, I have been waiting for the topic to be addressed in the hope that I can break through a dead end in my own thinking. John Morales came so close, but then became bored before he got there which is what started this exchange in the first place. I couldn’t care less about whether I come across as JAQing because I know that I am not.

    Blar, so much for your rhetorical question above; you have rendered it moot.

    Tell you what, since you’re so keen on seeing me address that meaty point there, how about you about you rephrase it in your own words* and I’ll take a look at them.

    When he was diverted to the Thunderdome I was looking forward to seeing an actual reply from the sharpest and meanest of the horde.

    I have my moments, but I’m neither. Still, thanks for the compliment. :)

    * If you lose correspondence, it will become your point and not XA-26483’s.

  21. Serendipitydawg(rebel without paws) says

    55 minutes and counting… missiles armed, tracking improved this year (note to anyone else targetting the sleigh tonight: Norad’s tracking is not reliable enough for targetting purposes). He is going down over the North Sea this year.

  22. John Morales says

    In the news: US firefighters gunned down responding to blaze

    Two volunteer firefighters in the United States have been shot dead and two others injured while responding to an emergency call in New York state.

    A convicted felon lured them to the blaze which police said he apparently set as a trap in the town of Webster, east of Rochester, on the shores of Lake Ontario.

    The 62-year-old shooter, who was found guilty of manslaughter and jailed for 17 years for his grandmother’s death in 1980, then fatally shot himself.

  23. says

    Oh my, I got more Le Creuset for Squidmas. *Glee*

    Nice!

    My two early gifts: one is so amazing I’m really speechless (I’ll share more later), and the other is also just wonderful – a friend gave me The French Catby Rachael McKenna. I hadn’t seen it before, and just adore it. The photography is gorgeous, and they’re CATS. In FRANCE.

  24. Hammer of dog says

    Watch out for reindeer shit. With Santa traveling at near the speed of light, those reindeer droppings will have near infinite energy and will obliterate whatever they hit.

    And Santa, unless you want the shit to really hit the fan, don’t fly over any wind power generators.

  25. Serendipitydawg(rebel without paws) says

    Missed again. Red wine and SAMs are not a good mix. Well played, Santa, same time next year.

    On a positive note: I have Terry Pratchett’s Dodger to read… can’t wait!

    Happy Humbug to all.

  26. Akira MacKenzie says

    Well, my sister’s lasagna beats mine. She found a good ratio of ground beef to Italian sausage.

  27. lpetrich says

    From over 2000 years ago,

    Goda Yehulan! — Good Yule!
    Felicia Saturnalia! — Happy Saturnalia!

    My reconstructed proto-Germanic, and a Latin one I composed.

  28. says

    I’ve never been in one of these threads, but am hoping I might run into Tina Turner.

    Bad night.

    I guess I am finally totally admitting that all the docs were right, I am bipolar. Scary how long it took me to see what are now obvious signs. They all said rapid cycling bipolar II, I always was skeptical. Over the last year or so I’ve suspected more and more, but in the last two months… and now this week. It has to be. I have to admit it.

    I’m fucking scared.
    I don’t want to go on meds. I’ve had very bad experiences on meds… and the one bright spot in my life is I am composing piano music.
    I am terrified of losing that. I’d rather be dead.

    I’m only posting this here because either nobody will see it or someone will mock me mercilessly. I wouldn’t mind the latter. It would be distracting.

    But the world is dead, the net is dead because of the holiday, I have nobody to write this to, but I had to say it.

    Almost got in a fight tonight with some guy.
    Last month chased a gang member several blocks after he threatened me.
    This in the neighborhood where three days ago a body with multiple gunshot wounds was found around the corner from my house… and a college kid was shot two blocks away last year walking home for wearing the wrong color shirt. but the good news is we keep making the “Top Ten Most Dangerous Cities in America” list.

    I’m thinking my little fluctuations might at times possibly be counterproductive in this environment.

    The hardest thing to bear is the thought that my parents might not be 100% responsible for all of my mental quirks.
    Damned parents. Can’t even screw up their own kid properly without help from nature.

    At least I can say my PTSD is not my fault. But who do I blame for THIS, dammit?

    Sorry. derailed. (can one of these threads be derailed?)
    fucking hell.

    nevermind.

  29. Beatrice says

    Jafafa Hots,

    I’m offering completely useless virtual *hugs*, I’m sorry that I don’t have anything more helpful.

    This thread can’t be derailed, so unload your worries if that helps you (the Lounge usually has more people, but the whole place seems to be deserted today). Someone might even prove to be less useless than me in answering.

    Please, try to stay safe.

  30. vaiyt says

    Jafafa Hots,

    *hug* and the best of good luck.

    Can you record your piano pieces and put them up on the internets? Maybe get someone else to play them? It would be nice if you could share your talent =)

  31. says

    Thanks Chigau.

    Vaiyt, I tried so hard to do that. It was my dream my whole life, before I actually managed to compose what I consider a legitimate piece.
    I spent thousands trying to get equipment to work. This place has ungrounded wiring, so even if I got things working (I’d probably have to start from scratch with a new comp, maybe a mac, and I can’t afford a new comp.)
    I just can’t get it to work.

    I managed to record a few of my earliest and very crude (and embarrassing) compositions but in horrific quality. Like cell-phone recording quality.

    I just have to admit that sound recording is beyond me at this point.

  32. carlie says

    jafafa hots, I’m glad you came here to let it out. You’re one of the people I always miss when you’re not around.
    I don’t know what to say, but if it’s been years since you’ve tried medications, I’ve heard that they’re getting better about side effects, and there might be more to choose from. No matter how you end up dealing with it, please be kind to yourself – just that you’ve been looking into it is good, and I’m sure you’ll do whatever is right for you. And of course there are always people around here to listen.

    Anybody else feel like it can be harder to explain yourself to a casual non believer who ostensibly agrees with you than it is to relate to the theist on the opposite end of the spectrum?

    Oh hells yes. It’s so ridiculous of a set of beliefs, it’s impossible to get someone to fully appreciate how much of a hold it can have on your life when you’re in the middle of it.

  33. says

    Thanks Carlie.
    I kinda stopped hanging around as much here and at the other blogs after I noticed that my comments were starting to sound erratic and unhinged or at least nonsensical and I was embarrassed. Didn’t want to have to deal with a “what the FUCK has happened to you, Jafafa?” response.

  34. chigau (違う) says

    Jafafa Hots
    Your comments are always worth reading, even the “erratic, unhinged, nonsensical”* ones.
    [*I wouldn’t use those words]

  35. opposablethumbs says

    Jafafa Hots, that sounds so frightening. Seconding Carlie, I’m glad you’ve decided to come by (hey, the Lounge is open – it’s quieter than usual, but it’s open!). Please take it as easy on yourself as you can. Please consider (consider and assess, to see if any good for you) any help that may be available – from an updated look at medication, to talking in meatspace (if there is anyone you can rely on to take a proper professional approach without trying to adjust you to fit their own agenda), to talking here.

    Also, hugs.

    Ungrounded wiring sounds like a nightmare for recording. But maybe someone knowledgeable has ideas for working round the problem? Can you just-temporarily borrow the use of a keyboard that has its own on-board recording facility? (maybe located on other premises, not your own place?)

  36. says

    Jafafa Hots, I wish I had more to offer than ‘net hugs, but I second Carlie ferociously – I always miss you when you aren’t around and you’re often in my thoughts. I *always* read your comments and look forward to them.

    Don’t ever hesitate to unload or rant or whatever you need to do here. A lot of us care about you and if we can’t do anything else, we can damn well listen.

    ♥ and *hugses*

  37. eyeroll says

    Oh for Squids sake, Caine! If you KNOW that schnapps gives you pancreatitis, why did you drink it?
    Just like I KNOW vodka will give me a great big headache but I am still drinking it. Well, I deserve it…..I am just back from being proselytized by my nephew. His pastor has told him there are demons in their house. I only hope that I live long enough to hear him appologize when he comes back to his senses.

  38. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

    Jafafa Hots: You don’t know me from a hole in the ground, but I know you, at least a little, from your posts here. You nym is one of the ones that stops my mad scrolling through comment threads. I’ve found that it’s worth my time to do so as you have lots of interesting and relevant things to say.

    I can’t help with any of your other troubles, but I might be able to stop the buzz in you recording gear. I have no idea what your knowledge level on this stuff is so forgive me if you’ve already tried this. Also keep in mind that I’m no expert on this. My knowledge is all second hand from sound guys and personal experimentation over years of trying to get music gear to play nice.

    The buzz you’re hearing is likely a 50 or 60 cycle hum also known as a ground loop. It often comes from the power in your system having more than one path to ground. The first thing to try is to reduce the number of things connected to mains power. If you have any devices that can run on batteries load ‘em up and unplug the wall warts. This includes laptops.

    Next, make sure that all the devices that require mains power are plugged into the same wall socket. It’s possible that different wall sockets are on different circuits causing a ground loop.

    If you’re using power boards or extension cords try and eliminate as many of them as possible. The goal is to have everything feeding the power to and from the same source.

    Sometimes the wall socket can be the problem. Being on the same circuit as a florescent light for instance can cause buzzing. Try different sockets, even take it to a friend’s place to see if the ground loop is inherent in your home’s wiring.

    Another problem might be with your mic’s impedance not matching your recording gear’s impedance. I’m on even shakier ground here knowledge-wise so if anyone who’s got really chops in this wants to step in I’d be grateful.

    Most professional quality mics are low impedance. This means they put out gobs of signal. If your recording device is expecting a high impedance signal (a tiny signal) it will overload and distort. Then you have to turn it way down and sometimes there’s no way to get the balance right and have it sound good.

    From your description, sounding like a phone, I’d guess that the problem would be more likely that you have a high impedance mic running into a low impedance recorder. Because of that tiny signal you have to turn up the amplification all the way and by doing so you’re amplifying all the noise that’s there too.

    One, admittedly not foolproof, way to tell your mic’s impedance is by the connector used. Most low impedance mics use an XLR connector, a three prong deal with deep sockets. Most high impedance mics use a 1/4″ jack. A very phallic looking thing like the mini-plug on most headphones but much larger.

    The fix for this is either to get a mixer with both impedance inputs or to buy an impedance matcher or transformer. You used to be able to get them from Radio Shack for around $30cnd. If they don’t have them your local music store should. Impedance matchers can make things sound a bit crappy, but if that’s your problem it will be a big improvement over your current situation.

  39. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

    Holly fuck. Bizarre and inexplicable tag failure.

  40. colonelzen says

    IMO, anyone who tries to guilt someone out for use of the word “crazy” is fucking nuts.

    “Crazy” is and has been used as a description for a wide variety of out-of-expected-or-ordinary things, events, acts or circumstances for a long, long time. That it has been used to describe those of malfunctioning brain is not cause for its abjuration.

    And yes will still use “retard” … for its exact and precise meaning: to intentionally slow a physical movement or process.

    As I see it this attempt to control language in circumstances not intended to cause harm and obviously not used in reference to anyone of impaired brain function is pure tribalism an pecking order one upmanship. A shit flinging contest to see who can smear the most “outsiders” and still smell sweetest.

    As a non-regular, it still all smells like shit to me.

    This grotesque version of political correctness is corrupt and poisonous, and is a large part of why will only rarely bother reading comments here, and only very rarely participate.

    More generally (despite my owing PZ and to a – much – lesser extent some commentary here a much heightened thought and awareness to the relationship of privilege and gender – and sexual orientation) having given real and considered thought to the language proscriptions of the “ablist” manifesto, I offer one simple word.

    No.

    — TWZ

  41. John Morales says

    colonelzen:

    This grotesque version of political correctness is corrupt and poisonous, and is a large part of why will only rarely bother reading comments here, and only very rarely participate.

    You wrote that unironically, didn’t ya? :)

  42. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Colonelzen:
    The world will be better of not hearing from someone who cannot differentiate between mental retardation being used as an insult and retard (as in to slow to progress of).
    It is abundantly clear from your comments that you do not care whether your words are offensive or hurtful to marginalized groups, so your presence is neither welcome nor desired. Please find a rock and crawl under it you uncaring douche.

  43. Amphiox says

    and is a large part of why will only rarely bother reading comments here, and only very rarely participate</blockquote.

    That is a feature, not a bug.

    And thank you for demonstrating that it is working.

  44. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Caine:
    Did you drink the lower proof peppermint schnapps, or the 100 proof Rumplemintz (my shot of choice)?

  45. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    chigau:
    Colonelzen would never have worked out. He is not a sheeple. He thinks for himself and gets the wrong answer.
    We think for ourselves and get PZ is our Cephalapodean Lord and Master.

  46. chigau (違う) says

    Tony
    Since we’re all sockpuppets, don’t we also think for PZ?
    wait…
    that doesn’t work

  47. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Speaking of PZ, I wonder if next semester will be slower for him. We haven’t done Mollie nominations, or seen Why I Am An Atheist, Pharyngula Podcasts, or I Get Email in a while.

  48. crayzz says

    @Colonelzen,

    “Crazy” is and has been used as a description for a wide variety of out-of-expected-or-ordinary things, events, acts or circumstances for a long, long time.

    Yeah!And that’s not all! I mean, n***** used to mean the colour black for centuries before it referred to people! And now all you poisonous, corrupt, politically correct meanies are trying to control me by pointing out that throwing around common slurs might be hurtful!

  49. Serendipitydawg(rebel without paws) says

    @theophontes (坏蛋)

    *Waves*

    Good to see you.

    @crayzz

    The biggest problem with all of these long standing epithets is what they have become: casual. Whether it is racism, sexism or, as is becoming more common, ablism, it is entrenchment by casual remarks that is pernicious and needs to be guarded against.

  50. Serendipitydawg(rebel without paws) says

    ablism

    I know what I meant!

    It is 10:00 on the morning after the night before… I am amazed to be even fractionally coherent.

  51. Serendipitydawg(rebel without paws) says

    And it is only 09:15… I would still be asleep if the capacity of the human bladder had been better selected by my ancestors.

    Does anyone know what has happened to the gravatars? I notice that many have disappeared, my own among them. I have changed email addresses at FTB but the gravatar site does know the new one.

  52. Gnumann+, something borrowed, something gnu... says

    Just popping in to deliver some huge hugs for Jafafa Hots. Though we’ve never interacted much you have been seen and appreciated, and I hope to continue to see and appreciate you.

  53. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    And yes will still use “retard” … for its exact and precise meaning: to intentionally slow a physical movement or process. – colonelzen

    Anyone know the “politically correct” term for someone unaware of the existence of homographs, and of the distinction between verbs and nouns? I need to apply it to colonelzen.

    I find “crazy” unobjectionable, as having long been applied mostly to absurd andor dangerous behaviour or people, but since others here don’t like it, I can manage without it. The English language, as Bertie Wooster noted, has about a million red-hot adjectives to choose from.

    Jafafa Hots,
    I’ve no relevant expertise and nothing useful to suggest, other than, as others have, recommending the Lounge as a good place to vent and expect a sympathetic response.

  54. says

    Thanks, everyone, for the kind words.

    FossilFishy, thanks for the tips. Not much I can try in this crappy house (the wiring is terrible in many ways, I’m forced to use extension cords, different outlets, etc. Really, the entire electrical system in this place needs to be replaced.
    Not that it mattered anyway, I bought a nice expensive firewire interface to use with my digital piano, and I can;t even get my Windows machine to recognize it.

    I do think a laptop would be the best answer, especially a Mac which would deal with that interface easily, or a USB one if need be… but my old netbook quit and I can’t afford one. So that’s that for now anyway.

    —-

    So I told a person I had been corresponding with for a couple of years about depression etc. about the bipolar thing. Just got her response. She tore me a new asshole.

    It takes only one unexpectedly nasty and cruel note from someone you trust to undo kind words from others and make you consider throwing your PC through your window and quit the internet forever.

    I think it might be time to switch hobbies from internet junk back to obsessive exercise and bicycling.

  55. blar says

    Tony,

    In this day of access to information, I do not believe the onus for teaching people-outside of institutions of learning-is necessarily on the educated. The basic legwork to acquire an understanding of a topic should be done by the individual

    I agree with you up to a point. Sometimes people want to be educated because of the benefits that the education will bring them, and it should be up to them to do the work to achieve that goal. However, with topics like feminism, it is probably more desirable for those in the know to have ignorance of feminism challenged than it is for those who don’t know. Does that make sense?

    Did you read the bit I wrote about improving accessibility of FAQs? Maybe it was a teal deer.

  56. blar says

    John Morales

    Blar, so much for your rhetorical question above; you have rendered it moot.

    Im sorry, I don’t understand what you mean by this but following up on it will probably be an unnecessary tangent. If I have misunderstood something crucial, perhaps it will come out in the wash, and I can be corrected.

    Tell you what, since you’re so keen on seeing me address that meaty point there, how about you about you rephrase it in your own words…

    I will use bits of his original text, but most of this is my own.

    Sexism is endemic to our society and grilled into us from birth. Gender policing attempts to maintain the status quo, and those who challenge these articles of faith are ostracized. Most people are going to be anti-feminist simply because of the environment they live in; they are misguided, not “cockroaches”.

    It is infuriating to a well-meaning person to be disregarded as unworthy or even dishonest. Determining the worth of a person’s contribution by holding their ideas to a litmus test which they are culturally inclined to fail is unfair.

    The problem is how to explain to someone who is not thinking clearly that they are not thinking clearly when you are exhausted and they are defensive. The answer, from what I have seen around this network, is not to bother. Its not worth it. If its not worth it, then how can minds be changed? What is the optimised strategy? Have I missed something? Maybe I am not thinking about this problem clearly enough. This is why I look outside my own mind.

  57. Serendipitydawg(rebel without paws) says

    @ theophontes:

    I also log in via WordPress… my gravatar was Ok up to the point I changed email addresses and then it disappeared, despite the new address being registered with gravatar. Gravatar sends an email to secondary addresses as part of the confirmation, so it isn’t as though you can type the address incorrectly. I’ll go and check at gravatar.

  58. Serendipitydawg(rebel without paws) says

    Strange. The new address definitely has the (somewhat naff) picture and there is no outstanding email from gravatar. It will have to remain one of life’s mysteries ;-)>

  59. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    blar,

    It is infuriating to a well-meaning person to be disregarded as unworthy or even dishonest.

    It’s also infuriating to an ill-meaning person to be so disregarded. Through long experience, most of the regulars here have stopped giving the benefit of the doubt to the like of XA-whatever.

  60. crayzz says

    @Serendipitydawg

    The biggest problem with all of these long standing epithets is what they have become: casual. Whether it is racism, sexism or, as is becoming more common, ablism, it is entrenchment by casual remarks that is pernicious and needs to be guarded against.

    Did my comment imply otherwise? I was really just mocking Colonel’s whining jackkassery (Google tells me this is not a word, I say different).

    @Blar

    Most people are going to be anti-feminist simply because of the environment they live in; they are misguided, not “cockroaches”.

    That depends. Are these hypothetical people the kind who don’t care for others enough to consider the possibility that others may be inherently disadvantaged? Are they unwilling or uncaring enough to understand what problem CeCe’s arrest indicates? Or what we mean by gender wage gap (hint: it’s not “women make 75% what a man makes in the same job”)? If they don’t care, and they don’t want to put the effort in, then fuck ‘em. Deal with them if you want. I certainly plan to. But we have no responsibility to respond to these jackasses.

    It is infuriating to a well-meaning person to be disregarded as unworthy or even dishonest. Determining the worth of a person’s contribution by holding their ideas to a litmus test which they are culturally inclined to fail is unfair.

    Intent is not magic. You may mean well, but if you’re causing harm you’re causing harm. Also, as you may have noticed, those who say stupid things without malice are given some benefit of the doubt around here (I certainly have been). It’s the doubling down on said stupidity that indicates that one is a “cockroach”.

    The problem is how to explain to someone who is not thinking clearly that they are not thinking clearly when you are exhausted and they are defensive. The answer, from what I have seen around this network, is not to bother. Its not worth it. If its not worth it, then how can minds be changed? What is the optimised strategy? Have I missed something? Maybe I am not thinking about this problem clearly enough. This is why I look outside my own mind.

    Minds can be changed by example. You said above that people are anti-feminist because of their environment, and some of them are (though some of them are actively ignorant shit bags). But society and their environment does not instill these ideas actively; it doesn’t reach into one’s brain and place them there. We take cues from society. We notice that most girl toys are pink and say, “Pink is for girls.” So, instead of going along with it all, we create a space where these discriminatory ideals are not in place. Where the cues we take indicate equality. Where discriminatory language is not allowed.

  61. says

    In Rwanda, some Hutus characterized Tutsis as inyenzi (cockroaches) and took to the airwaves with this cry, helping to foment genocide. Same word being used for the same purpose – dehumanization.

    Just sayin’.

    (oh shit, now I’ll probably be accused of saying someone is fomenting genocide.)

  62. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Blar:
    I read your teal deer. I found it intriguing, though such a thing doesn’t need my approval. It needs PZs.
    One thing you’re missing about this ‘educate the n00bs’ idea is that feminism has been discussed for decades. There are people at Pharyngula who have been doing this for a long time and can attest to how disruptive it is having a discussion of feminism continuously have to deal with 101-level exanations. If you’ve been a feminist activist for 20 years, it’s likely to get extremely tiresome having a debate about sexism or misogyny and once more being asked to define basic terms. It is disruptive even IF the n00b is asking honestly. You are taking into account the feelings and desires of the n00bie, while ignoring the seasoned vets.

  63. says

    A recent question to the California History Flickr group:

    “What is the next historical event that would be suitable for a 12 -13 year old? Does anyone have any ideas?”

    um…

  64. Serendipitydawg(rebel without paws) says

    Did my comment imply otherwise? I was really just mocking Colonel’s whining jackkassery (Google tells me this is not a word, I say different).

    I missed the sarcasm…

  65. crayzz says

    Ah, ok.

    Sorry, I thought the phrase “poisonous, corrupt, politically correct meanies” was over the top enough.

  66. Gnumann+, something borrowed, something gnu... says

    Crayzz:

    Sorry, I thought the phrase “poisonous, corrupt, politically correct meanies” was over the top enough.

    It’s never enough. Poe’s law is sady applicable also outside religious fundamentalism…

  67. crayzz says

    @Jafafa

    In Rwanda, some Hutus characterized Tutsis as inyenzi (cockroaches) and took to the airwaves with this cry, helping to foment genocide. Same word being used for the same purpose – dehumanization.

    Just sayin’.

    Which is why I put the term in quotes. I didn’t like the use of the term, and didn’t think it was fair to imply that the horde dehumanizes people we don’t agree with. I meant to point that out near the top of my post, but it slipped by me.

    It’s never enough. Poe’s law is sady applicable also outside religious fundamentalism

    I mostly thought “meanies” was indicative enough. I thought the childishness placed among an (almost) quote from Colonel would be enough. That and the fact that I was using Colonel’s exact reasoning and phrasing in a different context would also help. But point taken, I will avoid sarcasm.

  68. John Morales says

    blar:

    Im sorry, I don’t understand what you mean by this but following up on it will probably be an unnecessary tangent.

    It’s a response to that which I quoted; specifically, first you wrote “it seems” I studiously avoided the point and you asked me whether it was because I was bored (as I’d actually written!) or because it was unassailable, yet later acknowledged I had got bored — rendering that rhetorical approach moot.

    (If you imagined that feeble button-pushing would goad or provoke me, you’re not that familiar with my attitude)

    So, having a look at your version:

    [1] Sexism is endemic to our society and grilled into us from birth. [2] Gender policing attempts to maintain the status quo, and those who challenge these articles of faith are ostracized. [3] Most people are going to be anti-feminist simply because of the environment they live in; they are misguided, not “cockroaches”.

    1. Yes, it’s called acculturation.

    2. Sorta — there are multiple pressures upon non-conformance, of which peer pressure is but one (if a major factor with children).

    3. This is a bit of a reach, though I’ll grant it arguendo. So what?
    PZ wasn’t speaking about most people, but a specific subset: those who are consciously anti-feminist and choose to discuss their opposition to it in that thread.

    (You do realise the allegorical nature of the request to examine rather than crush the cockroaches, no?)

    [1] It is infuriating to a well-meaning person to be disregarded as unworthy or even dishonest. [2] Determining the worth of a person’s contribution by holding their ideas to a litmus test which they are culturally inclined to fail is unfair.

    1. It may be, yes. So what?

    Your quaint and naive implication that most people who weigh in on Pharyngula comment threads disputing the existence of sexism are well-meaning is inapplicable here — most certainly after the Rebeccalypse where it became a rite of passage for certain groups to come troll here and get banned.

    2. Perhaps, but the topic is supposed to be about commenters here; this place is one where the the worth of a person’s contribution is based on the comments they make, and the only litmus test of their ideas is their merit.

    [1] The problem is how to explain to someone who is not thinking clearly that they are not thinking clearly when you are exhausted and they are defensive. [2] The answer, from what I have seen around this network, is not to bother. Its not worth it. [3] If its not worth it, then how can minds be changed? What is the optimised strategy? [4] Have I missed something? Maybe I am not thinking about this problem clearly enough. This is why I look outside my own mind.

    1. How is that a problem? Here: “You are not thinking clearly because [reason]”.

    2. This is a false claim: people generally do bother until the point when it’s clearly futile.

    (Also, you seem to imagine there’s an onus on the commentariat to be patient pedagogues and shining lights on the hill; if so, you would do well to disabuse yourself of that notion)

    3. Again, what do you imagine this place is?

    Never mind, I’ll tell you: This is the personal blog of an academic, where he freely allows anyone who doesn’t egregiously abuse the privilege to comment on his posts (and on these open threads) and express themselves. That’s it.

    4. Yeah, you’ve missed that the blog has been around for a long time and that many regulars have been around for many years and have developed well-honed heuristics for quickly evaluating the ability and character of other commenters.

    In short, we’re more than familiar with the “you’re doing it wrong” claim.

    (There’s nothing stopping you from “doing it right” if you want to comment here, you know)

  69. Nepenthe says

    @SC

    I’ve found that my give-a-shit in regard to Laden has withered down to nothing. Every conversation about him could be spent talking about more interesting and relevant things, like socks or kittens.

  70. blar says

    I read your teal deer. I found it intriguing, though such a thing doesn’t need my approval. It needs PZs.

    Then perhaps I will harvest some FAQ answers from around the web and try to cobble something together.

    It is disruptive even IF the n00b is asking honestly. You are taking into account the feelings and desires of the n00bie, while ignoring the seasoned vets.

    Which is precisely why tools need to be available which satisfy the needs of both sides. I am trying to take everyone’s feelings into account to find out if there is a solution where everyone can win.

  71. John Morales says

    blar:

    I am trying to take everyone’s feelings into account to find out if there is a solution where everyone can win.

    “everyone’s”, eh?

    (You’re either a hypocrite or a saint)

  72. says

    I’ve found that my give-a-shit in regard to Laden has withered down to nothing. Every conversation about him could be spent talking about more interesting and relevant things, like socks or kittens.

    I agree completely. The problem is that the anti-feminists keep focusing on him and then Thibeault and others make a point of defending his character. It has nothing to do with feminism and I wish people wouldn’t go along with it, especially by becoming general apologists for him.

  73. blar says

    John,

    Thanks for clearing that up. Initially I couldn’t believe that you had actually gotten bored or that you considered yourself in danger of suffering RSI. I was not attempting to goad you at all, and was genuinely disappointed that you had stopped short.

    …acculturation.

    – My lexicon thanks you.

    You do realise the allegorical nature of the request to examine rather than crush the cockroaches, no?

    Absolutely, but you might be able see how the attitude of not caring too much about false positives in identifying JAQ assholes, and mentally associating said JAQ assholes with vermin looks. I do take your point though, that PZ was referring to those who are wilfully misogynistic. If he isn’t talking about you, then why get defensive?

    [1] It is infuriating to a well-meaning person to be disregarded as unworthy or even dishonest. [2] Determining the worth of a person’s contribution by holding their ideas to a litmus test which they are culturally inclined to fail is unfair.

    1. It may be, yes. So what?

    Your quaint and naive implication that most people who weigh in on Pharyngula comment threads disputing the existence of sexism are well-meaning is inapplicable here — most certainly after the Rebeccalypse where it became a rite of passage for certain groups to come troll here and get banned.

    2. Perhaps, but the topic is supposed to be about commenters here; this place is one where the the worth of a person’s contribution is based on the comments they make, and the only litmus test of their ideas is their merit.

    1. Infuriated people are less likely to be able to express their ideas coherently. They tend towards defensiveness and not thoughtfulness. Its like hamstringing your opponent while he is still on the blocks. I am not naive enough to believe that all commenters come here honestly and I certainly didn’t mean to imply that I think that.

    2. Incorrect. How an idea is articulated bears directly on how it will be received whether or not the idea is good. XA is a case in point. Verbose and defensive, any nuggets of point were lost, and (it appears to me that) you had already decided that there was nothing of worth before you had dug halfway. Of course, its not your responsibility to write a commenters comment as it should be written, but a vast proportion of potential commenters are unable to get their opinions across in strong writing. While I am sure that you do your best to read charitably, US and THEM is a very strong predjudicer. 2 litmus tests at least, more if other prejudices creep in.

    1. How is that a problem? Here: “You are not thinking clearly because [reason]“.

    Perhaps you have missed my meaning. Stating is not explaining. If the objective is to change someones mind or at the very least get them to accept your point of view as potentially valid, then the idea must be framed in such a way as to make sense to the receiver. If the receiver is not thinking clearly and that is the reason why they are holding erroneous beliefs, then correcting those beliefs by explanation will require great patience. such patience is not possible when you are tired and besieged.

    2. This is a false claim: people generally do bother until the point when it’s clearly futile.

    I regretted that sentence after I posted it. I have seen that attitude, but I recognise that generally it IS a false
    claim and I will try to be less general in my language.

    …have developed well-honed heuristics for quickly evaluating the ability and character of other commenters.

    I have seen this written before, but I am not sure I will ever trust “well-honed heuristics” in fallible humans. Thats my shit though. Maybe another day.

    The most helpful part of your comment for me was:

    Also, you seem to imagine there’s an onus on the commentariat to be patient pedagogues and shining lights on the hill; if so, you would do well to disabuse yourself of that notion

    I do not have any such notion, but I suddenly had the realisation that I have been thinking of you and all the other beloved names as different aspects of a single creature, The Horde, which has its own goals and objectives. The Horde does not exist. There is no Horde. My thinking has probably been clouded by this misconception up until now.

  74. blar says

    You’re either a hypocrite or a saint

    FALSE DICHOTOMY. I can be either or neither.

    Everyone CAN win. By the power of learning.

  75. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    blar:
    You are going to be greatly disappointed if you try to figure out a solution to your problem that appeals to _everyone_.
    I think you should focus on attaining your goals efficiently with a mind to benefitting the most people.

  76. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    My thinking has probably been clouded by this misconception up until now.

    No, your thinking has been clouded by your concern trolling attitude. There will be no fix. Those who concern troll about our tone never, ever show us a better way, as there isn’t one. They can’t lead by example effectively. Do everybody a favor and just fade away.

  77. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Everyone CAN win. By the power of learning.

    Starting with you learning that for some problems there is no good solution.

  78. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    blar:
    Your @97 reads far too much like the simplistic idealistic After School Specials that used to run on tv.

  79. vaiyt says

    If the receiver is not thinking clearly and that is the reason why they are holding erroneous beliefs, then correcting those beliefs by explanation will require great patience. such patience is not possible when you are tired and besieged.

    Of course, it’s OUR prerrogative and ours alone to be patient, to humor our interlocutors, to pretend they’re arguing in good faith, and to not ever, ever get upset no matter how obtuse, hateful or dishonest they are. Is that fair?

    Here’s my advice: if you think you can do better than us, PUT YOUR IDEAS INTO PRACTICE instead of haranguing us on how we should be doing things!

  80. John Morales says

    blar:

    FALSE DICHOTOMY.

    No need to shout.

    And I made no claim as to it being a dichotomy, I merely told you my opinion of you making that claim.

    Everyone CAN win. By the power of learning.Everyone CAN win. By the power of learning.

    In this context, winning represents having one’s ideal vindicated; when the ideas are antithetical, that’s not gonna happen.

    (That everyone can gain experience is pretty much an irrelevance)

    As for the other, I’ll be back after my trip. (Be a day or two)

  81. Rodney Nelson says

    blar #97

    How an idea is articulated bears directly on how it will be received whether or not the idea is good. XA is a case in point. Verbose and defensive, any nuggets of point were lost, and (it appears to me that) you had already decided that there was nothing of worth before you had dug halfway. Of course, its not your responsibility to write a commenters comment as it should be written, but a vast proportion of potential commenters are unable to get their opinions across in strong writing. While I am sure that you do your best to read charitably, US and THEM is a very strong predjudicer.

    What you and many other people fail to realize is that this blog is not a kind, gentle place like an upper-class Englishman’s social club or a tea shoppe. This blog has been described as a biker bar. What you say is much more important than how you say it. The Horde™ enjoy arguing, have no qualms about being insulting, and hate to be bored. Boredom often happens when a PRATT* is presented. The first person to argue that feminism is unfair to men will be argued back at. The thousandth iteration of “what about the menz” becomes piranha food.

    Often the arguments are US vs THEM. We see creationists, theists wanting to bring Jesus into our lives, and misogynists on a regular basis. PZ called Sye Ten Bruggencate a “slimy motherfucker” and none of the commentariat leaped to Sye’s defense. It’s a rite of passage for slymepitters to get banned from Pharyngula. It is a dog eat Horde™ world out there and we chomp back.

    *Point Refuted A Thousand Times

  82. consciousness razor says

    1. How is that a problem? Here: “You are not thinking clearly because [reason]“.

    Perhaps you have missed my meaning. Stating is not explaining.

    Giving a reason is explaining. Explanations come in the form of statements, so explaining is stating, but that is not to say they are all bare assertions or that all statements are explanations. So since that can’t be an objection, what is your objection to this supposed to be?

    If the objective is to change someones mind or at the very least get them to accept your point of view as potentially valid, then the idea must be framed in such a way as to make sense to the receiver.

    You “frame” it to “make sense” by giving a reason. What else could you do that would establish that an idea is valid and makes sense?

    That’s a separate issue from how someone can be persuaded to change their emotional attachments to an idea, or how to relate it with a story or a picture or pleasant language which grabs their attention or will intuitively seem right to them given their background.

    If the receiver is not thinking clearly and that is the reason why they are holding erroneous beliefs, then correcting those beliefs by explanation will require great patience.

    No, it only requires showing why the erroneous beliefs are false and why their thinking is muddled. That is the required information someone needs to think clearly and have beliefs which aren’t known to be erroneous.

    Your muddled thinking which I just quoted is a useful example. I don’t see how one thing (correcting false beliefs) would be “required” by the other (patience), as you claimed. You’ve apparently conflated an attitude or personality trait with how explanation itself must be done. (Or perhaps you’ve changed the subject back and forth several times without realizing it or letting anyone else know.) You don’t have to cater to someone’s every need (e.g., grab their attention, entertain them, make it an idea they will like or one they will share with others, make them feel good about themselves despite being wrong, etc.) in order to meet their needs in terms of getting an adequate explanation. The point is simply that there are a whole lot of things which aren’t required for explaining why an idea is wrong, and patience seems to be one of those things. You haven’t shown why patience would be needed, so without any such reason, I think it’s safe to assume that it isn’t.

    As others have said, we’re not just talking about trivial matters of fact either, and they’re definitely not just matters of opinion. We shouldn’t expect that people ought to dispassionately debate whether or not they should be treated as full human beings with all the rights and respect that would entail for anyone else. We should instead expect anything which undermines that for anyone will (and should) get a fuckload of very harsh criticism and raise a lot of suspicion, at least from the people who are affected by it. You should also expect it from anyone with a shred of decency who’s seen that kind of shit happen before and has two neurons to scrape together, assuming they weren’t raised by wolves under a fucking rock in their parents’ basement.

    (No offense to wolves. It’s just a figure of speech. Also, the presence of a “fucking rock” is probably optional.)

  83. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Gee, is that evo psych being used to reinforce rigid gender roles?
    ” Finally, there is no escaping the fact that all of these romance novels are designed around very strict cultural lines. The women are always traditionally beautiful (or if not, there is always something that is mysteriously sexy about them). The men are always, ALWAYS handsome. Everyone is successful and everyone gets married. Are these things we seek because our evolutionary psychology tells us we need them?Or are they things we seek because society tells us that that is what is good, what is right, and what is required to make someone a good person?I think this study can’t possibly separate that out. You can’t pull romance novels out of their cultural context, which means you can’t get down to the evo psych. You can only get down to what the culture we are in expects us to want: doctors, babies, and cowboys (not necessarily in that order).”

    http://scientopia.org/blogs/scicurious/2012/12/21/friday-weird-science-the-evolutionary-psychology-of-the-romance-novel/

  84. Tony ∞The Queer Shoop∞ says

    Chas:
    Where do you get off trivializing the loneliness that Portia is feeling? Four days might not seem much to you, but for her (or others) it is significant. How dare you treat someone else’s concerns so flippantly. This time of year can be rough for many people and I am appalled that you would act as if people should act as you would.
    Fuck you.

  85. says

    Oh for Squids sake, Caine! If you KNOW that schnapps gives you pancreatitis, why did you drink it?

    I don’t *know* that having a shot of schnapps will set my pancreas off. It might. A small beer might set it off. Sometimes, it’s nice to have a drink and considering I rarely do have one, it’s especially nice if I don’t have to pay in terms of three days worth of agonizing pain.

    Tony:

    Did you drink the lower proof peppermint schnapps, or the 100 proof Rumplemintz (my shot of choice)?

    Eek! Plain ol’ peppermint schnapps, highly diluted with ice. More like peppermint water. :D

  86. Alex the Pretty Good says

    To all of you who spend so much time battling the inanity of MRA’s in this thread and so many others … I’d like to offer my sincere thanks for fighting the good fight. There’s often so much I want to say in those threads as well, but by the time I reach the end of the thread, it has usually already been said by one of the regulars, and more eloquently as well.

    Just had to let it be known somewhere after reading two headlines (and associated articles) that first made me rage with impotent anger, then feel replacement shame for so many others within the Y-chromosome bearing half of the population.

    Trigger Warning for the below two news articles:
    Catholic Priest Piero Corsi Blames ‘Filthy Clothes and Cold Food’ for Murder of Women
    Indian teen kills self after pressed to drop rape case

    Guess I’ll have to bookmark this post next time another mysogynistic a-hole comes by and claims “we should just lighten up”.

  87. John Morales says

    Back.

    blar:

    … you might be able see how the attitude of not caring too much about false positives in identifying JAQ assholes, and mentally associating said JAQ assholes with vermin looks.

    Caring too much would be, um, caring too much.

    (I care just right!)

    I do take your point though, that PZ was referring to those who are wilfully misogynistic. If he isn’t talking about you, then why get defensive?

    The rhetorically-deficient but defiant take what they can, that’s why.

    [1] Infuriated people are less likely to be able to express their ideas coherently. They tend towards defensiveness and not thoughtfulness. [2] Its like hamstringing your opponent while he is still on the blocks.

    1. Again: maybe, but so what?

    2. Rubbish — or do you imagine regulars exempt from infuriation?

    (It’s a level playing field)

    I am not naive enough to believe that all commenters come here honestly and I certainly didn’t mean to imply that I think that.

    Thus the heuristics you so blithely decry.

    Incorrect. How an idea is articulated bears directly on how it will be received whether or not the idea is good.

    Not incorrect. You’re conflating the delivery of the proposition presented with the proposition itself — the tone with the content.

    (An insulting refutation is both insulting and a refutation)

    XA is a case in point. Verbose and defensive, any nuggets of point were lost, and (it appears to me that) you had already decided that there was nothing of worth before you had dug halfway.

    You imagine I didn’t first read the comment in its entirety before starting my own response?

    While I am sure that you do your best to read charitably, US and THEM is a very strong predjudicer. 2 litmus tests at least, more if other prejudices creep in.

    To what ‘us’ and ‘them’ do you refer?

    (Who’s with me? Who’s against me? Are you with me or against me?)

    I have seen this written before, but I am not sure I will ever trust “well-honed heuristics” in fallible humans. Thats my shit though. Maybe another day.

    Were it not that you hold that “Stating is not explaining.”, you’d perhaps see that it was both a statement and an explanation of how I determine how to respond to various commenters.

    (I don’t need your trust any more than I need you to change your mind)

  88. says

    John:

    Caine, your training proceeds satisfactorily. :)

    Indeed. I am putty in their tiny hands.

    Chigau:

    What about next year?

    Um…new ornaments and treats. :D I did take all the ornaments off, much to Amelia’s distress, but she was happily distracted when I placed graham crackers in the tree.

  89. says

    @ Caine

    Ratmas

    If you are running in parallel with the good old Pagan goddist Xmas, then you should only remove the decorations on Twefth Night. So ratties can have the run ’til 6th January and still be compliant with the ancient traditions of Ratmas.

    Took myself off to hospital yesterday for what turned out to be an allergic reaction to something. I am now dosed on relaxing meds and have a few days off to catch up on my reading. The interesting thing about this, was that all the consultation, tests and drugs came to a grand total of US$13. Viva socialised medicine!

    (I would be scared to know what a visit to A&E would cost in the USA.)

  90. says

    Theophontes:

    If you are running in parallel with the good old Pagan goddist Xmas, then you should only remove the decorations on Twefth Night. So ratties can have the run ’til 6th January and still be compliant with the ancient traditions of Ratmas.

    The decorations are gone, but the Tree of Treats™ remains standing. The rats were terribly upset when I simply moved it to the floor in preparation to put it away. The little monsters seriously act out when upset, too.

    (I would be scared to know what a visit to A&E would cost in the USA.)

    Yes, you would.

  91. says

    I would be scared to know what a visit to A&E would cost in the USA.

    In Australia you would be looking at 440.- AUD just for getting in the door, plus the costs for any tests or medicines.

  92. Matt Penfold says

    In the UK emergency treatment is free, although if you are not a UK resident and not from a country with a repcriprocal agreement ,or an EU country, the NHS can try to recover the costs from your insurance company. Most of the times it seems they don’t bother.

  93. dianne says

    (I would be scared to know what a visit to A&E would cost in the USA.)

    A lot.

    This is one of the reasons medical costs are so high in the US: People are scared of what they’ll be charged if they go to the doctor or, especially the emergency department, so wait and hope the problem will go away. Sometimes it does. Other times…it becomes worse and they come in when they’re gravely ill and more likely to die, extremely expensively.

    Another contributor to medical costs: insurance companies attempts to save money by denying coverage for minor paperwork mistakes. For example, insurers will deny coverage if a note doesn’t have a date and time on it. As a result, the hospital has hired three people whose job it is to go around and check to make sure all notes on the chart have a date and time. That’s their ONLY job. This costs probably several hundred K per year and contributes absolutely nothing to patient care. Only to prevention of denial of payment. (Grumble, rant, etc.)

  94. says

    People are scared of what they’ll be charged if they go to the doctor or, especially the emergency department

    My life would be so much better if this was the case here.

  95. says

    @ Caine

    …video!

    @ rorschach/Matt

    To compare (AUD): 12.4(incl. meds)/440(excl) = ~3%

    [Free to residents]: I have a resident visa, so get charged at the same rate as locals. Is there not abuse of the system if it is completely free?

  96. Matt Penfold says

    I have a resident visa, so get charged at the same rate as locals. Is there not abuse of the system if it is completely free?

    Emergency departments here (UK) do say that at the weekends they get too many cases that would be better dealt with by GPs. However, since the Government changed the rules on weekend GP provision it has become harder to get to see a GP over the weekend. Most departments get around the problem by triaging.

  97. says

    Is there not abuse of the system if it is completely free?

    Yes, that’s my point. I waste my time every day seeing people with 2 years of a rash, or 6 months of shoulder pain. While the people who are having heart attacks or strokes wait for me to review them.

  98. Matt Penfold says

    Oh, and emergency departments in the UK tend to become wastelands of the drunk on Friday and Saturday nights. So much so, that on the worst nights of year, such as the last Friday before Christmas, some departments will set-up field hospitals in city centres to deal with those who have drunk themselves insensible.

  99. says

    @ Matt

    Most departments get around the problem by triaging.

    In the Hong Kong system, one must pay the deposit on registration. After triage the deposit is non-refundable, even if the patient decides not to go ahead. If evaluated as emergency, one gets immediate treatment. The next level (“semi-urgent” – this is what I got) means one waits 90 minutes prior to recieving treatment. If non-urgent, one waits for 3 hours.

    All of the above tends to sort the sheep from the goats.

    @ rorschach

    Would the above not work in your case? The triage people would just add 3 hours to the non-urgent bookings.

  100. Matt Penfold says

    When I broke my wrist I did not have to go through any official triage. A nurse took one look at the wrist, said it was broken (I already knew that, it was bending in places wrists are not supposed to bend) and I was taken straight through and saw a doctor at once.

  101. Matt Penfold says

    For overly drunk people… fine them?

    Just stick them on waterproofed mattress on the floor, make sure they don’t choke on their vomit and when they begin to recover withhold the paracetamol. And make them go home in their vomit and urine stained clothes.

  102. carlie says

    In an ER in the midwestern United States, we waited 3 hours for my child to be seen when he came in with anaphylaxis due to accidentally ingested nuts. Yeah, that was fun. By the time we got there the symptoms were already starting to wane (he had thrown up just a minute or two after he had them), but it could have flared back up again at any point. And then when he was seen, he just got a dose of liquid benadryl. Not only is our system expensive, it’s often shitty.

  103. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    AE!!!!!! Have a tankard of grog and some snacks and settle in for awhile. :)

    *serves up grog and bacon popcornz*

  104. Antiochus Epiphanes says

    Heh. Love to, but we are taking the offspring to the museum this morning. I was just reading this morning and thought I’d say howdy.

  105. Matt Penfold says

    Did you go through a triage system Carlie ?

    Only I know in the NHS that certain symptoms mean you get seen immediately: Breathing problems, chest pain, uncontrolled bleeding, head injury (even if it appear minor) and some other stuff. Basically symptoms that could indicate a life-threatening problem.

  106. says

    Just stick them on waterproofed mattress on the floor, make sure they don’t choke on their vomit and when they begin to recover withhold the paracetamol. And make them go home in their vomit and urine stained clothes.

    The drunk teens are easy, its their parents that demand immediate and constant attention be paid to their dying offspring who drive you insane.

  107. Matt Penfold says

    The drunk teens are easy, its their parents that demand immediate and constant attention be paid to their dying offspring who drive you insane.

    I imagine the temptation to ask them why they allowed their precocious offspring get in such a state must be strong.

    And what is it with teens today ? When I was a teen I will admit to getting very drunk on more than occasion, but never to the extent I needed hospitalisation. And we had an unwritten rule; you made sure the people you were out drinking with got home safely.

  108. carlie says

    Matt – yes, and it was triage that apparently decided we could wait awhile. I guess they figured since he was out of immediate breathing danger by then and the next possible peak is about 6 hours later, we could go ahead and wait it out (although the waiting room only had 2 other people in it, so I don’t know what took so long).

  109. bobo says

    Guys, from the lounge, please chill.

    I was backing up Ing, who was complaining about people who get all uppity about grammar in an attempt to show their intellectual superiority. Somewhere along the way, it was assumed that I was a crazy mean nasty person who went out of her way to troll everyone on FTB with bad grammar when I meant no such thing.

    It was a general statement – as in, if someone insults your intelligence b/c you made a typo, it doesn’t actually mean you’re stupid, and you shouldn’t give a shit! And it just goes to show that they are petty and trying to score points by picking on grammar. As long as what one writes is reasonably legible I don’t see the issue with the occasional mistake.

    It was also assumed that after hearing that people here on FTB have various vision problems, that I gleefully went out of my way to troll them with bad grammar and spelling. Again, completely and utterly false. I was not even referring to FTB with my orignal post regarding said grammar nazis.

    In fact, I was specifically thinking of the jerks in the games that I play who like to put people down for the crime of…transposing letters!! But, I did not say as much, b/c I was trying to make a general point and back up Ing.

    I hope that clears it up.

  110. chigau (違う) says

    bobo
    Didn’t clear up anything.
    Ing does not need your help.
    The Lounge is not anything like your gaming sites.
    Saying ‘chill, guys’ earns you a ‘bite me’

  111. Orange Utan says

    @chigau

    You’re the one that decided to read uncharitably and kicked off the little stoush.

  112. bobo says

    Chigau, you attacked me first.

    I was agreeing with Ing.

    Why is that so bad? Is it now a crime to back someone up if they don’t need the help?

  113. bobo says

    For the record, I never did say, not once “I do not give a shit about the people on FTB and I will go out of my way to type horribly and use horrible grammar b/c I do not care if they have vision problems or speak a second or third language muhahahaah I am so evil I love treating people like shit”

    THAT is what you and a bunch of others accused me of over on the lounge. I tried desperately to explain, and did so here, and frankly, the entire situation is ridiculous!

  114. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @bobo

    No no no. They accused you of apathy despite a degree of care in writing being appreciated and useful. It’s unrelated to what we were talking about

  115. bobo says

    @bobo

    No no no. They accused you of apathy despite a degree of care in writing being appreciated and useful. It’s unrelated to what we were talking about

    You are correct. However, more than a few did assume that I was specifically apathetic towards the denizes of FTB, and that despite hearing about the reading problems that certain FTB’ers have, that I was still going to insist on abusing them with poor grammar. And that is not and never has been the case. I was agreeing with you, and referring to *general* circumstances on how to deal with grammar nazis, and not FTB.

    Whether or not you needed my help is immaterial, we have both been annoyed by similar people, in different times and places. You shared, I shared. That is all. I have no apathy, no hate-on for FTB. as some have assumed…

    In fact, *now* that I have learned that some folks here do have vision problems, I will take extra care in crafting my sentences!

  116. says

    In fact, *now* that I have learned that some folks here do have vision problems, I will take extra care in crafting my sentences!

    Good on you!

  117. bobo says

    #151 Orange Utan

    “stoush”

    2.
    a fight or brawl.

    ————-

    A word I have never heard before! Thank you for the addition to my vocabulary, and for reading me correctly ;)

  118. bobo says

    @ing

    Was your original grammar comment in regards to the math thread and that Rob guy picking on you?

  119. says

    @bobo

    My original statement wasn’t meant to refer to Pharyngula alone. It’s a good bet that no matter where you go, there are going to be people who rely on proper spelling and punctuation to enhance legibility, so by making it one’s practice to make the effort*, you’re showing others respect. If a person fails to do what they can to accommodate others in this small way once they’ve been made aware of it, it shows a disregard that can only be termed assholish.

    And I never suspected or accused you of having a hate on for or trolling FTB.

    In fact, *now* that I have learned that some folks here do have vision problems, I will take extra care in crafting my sentences!

    Thank you.

    *Emphasised because everyone makes mistakes or uses autocorrect or types on persnickety devices or has their own disabilities that are an obstacle to spelling/typing/using correct punctuation or has English as a second language; I’m not talking about expecting perfection.

  120. bobo says

    @ibis

    Thank you for explaining. If you check the lounge, I also add some more to the story. I did a *terrible* job of defending myself, because frankly, I was confused about the “whats and the hows” of how what I had said to Ing could be interpreted as *bad*.

    I do use, and often do not care, about bad grammar and punctuation on informal blogs (yahoo comments ugh) and in situations where I am talking to my friends, or playing an online game.

    I have made typos, many many many typos, due to frozen fingers – such as spelling ‘how’ as ‘hwo’ and usually some arrogant asshole will accuse me of being stupid because I made the unforgiveable error of transposing letters. It was in this sense that I was backing up Ing, by saying that, even if we make such mistakes, and someone attacks us for it, this does not make us stupid, and that we should *not give a shit* about such petty people!

  121. bobo says

    @rq

    bobo
    Being told to take it to the ‘dome doesn’t mean it’s your fault; it just means that it’s a situation that can possibly escalate into something unpleasant for everyone here. Sort of a pre-emptive measure, but definitely not an accusation or a condemnation. :)

    A couple of people went so far as to accuse me of *everything*. I never attacked anyone, yet I was rudely accused of misbehaviour b/c I had the gall to try to explain myself!!

  122. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Was your original grammar comment in regards to the math thread and that Rob guy picking on you?

    No that just demonstrated my point. All the time elsewhere when I try to talk about stuff I like with alleged peers I get that. Oddly it happens far more often when I suggest “why can’t comics/movies/tv be more inclusive” or “why is white male het the default?” or “can’t we be a bit more creative than that?” It’s blatant “shut up that’s why!” trying to shout someone down as people clearly understand the point and only jump on bad grammar (which usually is a missed comma or auto-correct f-ing me over with your/you’re or some such) as a way to attack me because they for some reason feel the need to defend their white penis.

  123. rq says

    bobo
    All I can say is that, from my observations, those two actions do not always go together. What usually happens is that someone demonstrates a willingness to be contentious and is sent to the ‘dome.
    What happened this time, from my observations, was a misunderstanding of your explanation, more of which was perceived as being argumentative, and hence the comment about the ‘dome.
    Anyway, I believe your first statements were misunderstood.
    I understand your outrage about being told off like that; I would feel the same. It’s not easy, sometimes, to make real explanations understood over the internet.
    Not sure if that helps.
    I’m getting out of the conversation.

  124. bobo says

    @Ing: I am sorry that you have to put up with all that. I am glad that my ‘back-up’ did not annoy you.

    @rq Thank you so so much for understanding!

  125. Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death) says

    Pretty please put it back on the right…?

  126. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @JM

    In all seriousness, you certainly agree that the certain designs of interface can be better or worse like all designed things right? And if the purpose of an interface is to interface (duh) with a human user than one that is aesthetically more pleasing or less distracting and/or does not require an adjustment period is a superior design right?

  127. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    My 176 was about adapting, not about Ing.

    :( ?

  128. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    I was not aware we had a problem, chigau

  129. John Morales says

    Ing, chigau taunted me with putative disbelief but my #175 crossed and she wanted to make it clear it referred to my lack of inconvenience.

    (Thus the admission of my hardware advantage)

    And if the purpose of an interface is to interface (duh) with a human user than one that is aesthetically more pleasing or less distracting and/or does not require an adjustment period is a superior design right?

    Right, but different people have different tolerances regarding what’s “good enough” in all those aspects.

    (I have lots)

  130. chigau (違う) says

    Ing
    JM posted that he had no trouble adapting to the new format
    I posted to JM “So you say …”
    but it appeared after
    JM posted Nice to have you back, Ing.
    Then, I wanted to clarify that I doubted JM’s ease of adaption not his welcoming you back.
    Don’t you love the internet?

  131. says

    My comment’s in moderation at Justin Griffith’s, so I thought I’d post it here, too, just in case (the quote is from Jerry Coyne):

    It’s an evenhanded exposition of the state of modern evolutionary psychology, how it works, what kinds of standards it uses, responses to some common criticisms (e.g., “we don’t know the genes involved”), and, for the critics, examples of evo-psych hypotheses that have been falsified.

    This would be the Confer paper that cites the infamous vervet study? Oh – it is! Hahahahahahaha.

    First, any quoting of Coyne in this way has always constituted a silly argument from authority in any case. Second, he showed long ago that he had a weakness for at least some bad evo psych and a lack of interest in engaging with critical arguments. Third, he’s let his personal and other biases lead him away from a reasoned approach to arguments about sexism for a long time now, so I’m not surprised he’s decided to toss more of his reputation in the pot. Fourth…the vervet study. The one in which they gave cooking pans to vervets. The one cited in Confer’s “evenhanded exposition.” Hahahahahahaha. Kinds of standards evo psych uses, indeed. Hahahahahahaha.

  132. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Right, but different people have different tolerances regarding what’s “good enough” in all those aspects.

    Yes but ideally a user face should be for the lower tolerances right? That way it accommodates the most.

  133. cm's changeable moniker says

    Auuuugh, put it back! Back on the right!

    Absolutely; Jakob Nielsen would be livid. Left-to-right readers need content on the left, extras on the right. I don’t care if JM can deal, it’s demonstrably-wrong. (See, for example, guardian.co.uk)

    Oh, and, I’ve been away for a week eating too much food. (The sprouts were delicious.)

    I did read T-dome on the new Kindle Fire (!) but that’s about it.

    I spent much more time boosting my high scores on Fruit Ninja. ;-)

  134. cm's changeable moniker says

    In fact, I just boosted my Fruit Ninja status to Combo God with a new high score. ;-)

  135. ChasCPeterson says

    y’know, SC, most of us scientists try to judge the quality of secondary literature from more than just the Literature Cited section.

  136. says

    @ Rob

    Eeep, thanks to your linky, I just read the whole thread. I am constantly flabbergasted by the “arguments” of the MRA’s. Surely, if their case is such a consequential one, as they insist, they could learn the very basics of making a good argument?

  137. Gnumann+,who should not under any cirumstance be referred to as "gunman" says

    Chas:

    y’know, SC, most of us scientists try to judge the quality of secondary literature from more than just the Literature Cited section.

    Have you seen how they use the vervet study and what for Chas?

  138. strange gods before me ॐ says

    I find that while I was gone, Rodney Nelson has been bullying me again, now outside of Thunderdome.

    I am tired of being used as his scapegoat, and it should stop. It should stop everywhere, but it’s a worsening problem when it spreads outside of Thunderdome.

    Rodney, you still owe me an apology for the last time you bullied me. Stop using me as an outlet for your gratuitous malice.

  139. Nepenthe says

    Rant incited by Rob‘s link:

    Watson is not a radical feminist! There is an actual school of feminism called “radical” and she is not a part of it! Faced with an actual radical feminist openly being radical feministy, kevinsolway would probably piss his pants and hide under his blankets!! *brain explodes, leaving gooey pink mess on laptop* *cat suddenly happy and less hungry*

  140. says

    Daniel Waddell
    danielwaddell17 / 444374414
     
    Melbourne, Australia
     
    Antitheist, Skeptic Atheist
     
    Twitter page / view tweets / view mentions
     
    686 friends
    309 followers
    12 listed
    5,112 tweets
     
    Tweeting since December 23, 2011

    Just great. A local ‘pitter. Happy New Year.

  141. strange gods before me ॐ says

    theophontes,

    Martini recipe: yOT5Rz!k

    I’m so sorry you didn’t receive this earlier. Gmail told me I sent it 13 days ago, but I guess it never found your inbox.

  142. says

    Rorschach:

    anyone know the guy?

    Nope. I have a good memory for people who have commented here, even drive-bys. If he’s commented here, I’m pretty sure it’s under a different name.

  143. says

    @ Strange Gods

    Thanks!

    No problem, I have been stuck in bed the last few days anyhow. I’ll check it out when I’m back in Shenzhen.

    Correct me if I am wrong: To get teeohare to work, one needs a minimal number of working bridges to get it up and running? And they have a sell-by-date? So one essentially has to bootstrap with new bridges and then use regularly?

  144. Owlmirror says

    Mmm.

    It occurs to me that when someone posts as [Newnym], I don’t immediately think anything of it; people join and people leave, and the thread goes on.

    Even when [Newnym] snipes at [Mr_X], I don’t immediately think much of it. [Mr_X] tends to polarize people. Bad moods happen.

    But after a while, when [Newnym] vents angrily about [Mr_X], and that venting looks vaguely familiar, I suddenly think “Say, didn’t [Oldnym], who stopped commenting after certain embarrassing facts came to light, some of them revealed by [Mr_X], have a long-standing, seething grudge against [Mr_X]? And didn’t he snipe at [Mr_X] in a similar manner?”

    And then I look at more comments by [Newnym], and note certain correspondences with my admittedly loose mental map of what I know about what [Oldnym] from what he used to post.

    My inference could by wrong. I’ve been wrong before, extrapolating wildly from insufficient data.

    But every time I look at comments by [Newnym], I’m going to be thinking “Is that something [Oldnym] would say?”

    @[Newnym]: If you read this, and I’m right, you might want to be a little more cautious about revealing little personal details. And you might want to grit your teeth and suppress that urge to snipe at and vent about [Mr_X]. Loose lips, and all that.

  145. says

    @ Rodney Nelson
    The only person who could possibly be accused of anything badd on this thread is, as public enemy number one, Owlmirror. Yet, as Owlmirror is only a sockpuppet of Rebecca Watson, Owlmirror cannot be responsible for such.

    .

    TL;DR: Blaming SGBM is sooo 2012.

  146. strange gods before me ॐ says

    one needs a minimal number of working bridges to get it up and running?

    If one is under a repressive gov/corp.

    And they have a sell-by-date? So one essentially has to bootstrap with new bridges and then use regularly?

    I lack a daily familiarity with bridges. But I think that’s right.

  147. strange gods before me ॐ says

    … right for you, being where you are. I suppose you’ll probably have to regularly look for new bridges, not just for bootstrapping. You constantly need a first hop which isn’t blacklisted.

  148. Beatrice says

    TL;DR: Blaming SGBM is sooo 2012.

    Since it’s still 2012 here…

    SGBM stole my wallet and used my credit card to fund Rmoney’s campaign!

  149. strange gods before me ॐ says

    I remember when a different [Mr_X] recognized a [Newnym] to be [Oldnym].

    My point: this is relatively easy for [Mr_X]s to notice.

    My real point: I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought of it. I spent some time last night checking whether [Oldnym] had ever commented while [Newnym] was still around. Nope.

    SGBM stole my wallet and used my credit card to fund Rmoney’s campaign!

    Sorry. It wasn’t even my idea. Bob Avakian told me to.

  150. Beatrice says

    Reading Walton’s interaction with other commenters in that thread is fascinating. It feels a bit weird, reading regulars’ comments from before I “knew” you all.

  151. strange gods before me ॐ says

    windy joined the pit.

    (or was that question “whatever happened, such that windy would join the pit?”)

  152. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Yeah, I don’t really know why. My gut impression was that the reason was “people at Pharyngula are too mean, and this thread at ERV’s is a convenient place to complain about that.” But I don’t remember any particularly explicit this is why I left Pharyngula comment.

  153. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    And of course people in the pit and especially the thread of slymepitty origin were all so nice.

    People, how do they fucking work?

  154. says

    SG:

    Yeah, I don’t really know why. My gut impression was that the reason was “people at Pharyngula are too mean, and this thread at ERV’s is a convenient place to complain about that.” But I don’t remember any particularly explicit this is why I left Pharyngula comment.

    I remember a blow out in TET, something about people here being too stupid too understand X. It might have had something to do with EP, but I’m not sure about that.

  155. ChasCPeterson says

    windy ws a direct casualty of the Elevator Wars of 2011. She joined the ‘pit early, when it represented (to her, I think) Team Dawkins vs. Team Radfem. I believe she rejects what she sees as the local brand of feminisms’s emphasis on victimization and she’s offended by the perceived infantilization of women inherent in what considers Schrodinger’s-rapist paranoia. (I say this because at the time she expressed specific unhappiness with some comments I made (over there) about crossing the street to pre-empt a potentially anxious situation for somebody else. It pissed her off.)

  156. says

    Chas:

    (I say this because at the time she expressed specific unhappiness with some comments I made (over there) about crossing the street to pre-empt a potentially anxious situation for somebody else. It pissed her off.)

    Wow. I was unaware of that, because I wouldn’t visit the erv threads. Thanks.

  157. Beatrice says

    And now I’m wondering whether newnym is who first came to mind when I read Owlmirror’s comment. Of course, you (general commentariat you) know other (former) regulars better than I do.

  158. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Beatrice,

    And now I’m wondering whether newnym is who first came to mind when I read Owlmirror’s comment.

    Do you want to guess first? I’ll just tell you, if you don’t want to guess.

  159. strange gods before me ॐ says

    I’m not afraid of him, so I surely don’t care about that.

    Do I have some moral obligation to not connect the nym morphs?

  160. says

    SG:

    I’m not afraid of him, so I surely don’t care about that.

    Um, I’m not sure where this is coming from. That’s not what I meant. Why make a situation worse?

    Do I have some moral obligation to not connect the nym morphs?

    Obviously not. I’ll drop this now, because it’s plain I won’t get anywhere. Cause all the harm you like.

  161. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Cause all the harm you like.

    WHOOOHOOOO!!!!

    *throws an armful of hand grenades into the air like confetti*

  162. Beatrice says

    *feeling bad about this*
    I’ll just leave this to the old crowd. More personal involvement, your decision whether to out whoever it is or not.

  163. John Morales says

    ॐ, I think you have no moral obligation either way, but I’ve no doubt you can shoehorn some such in.

  164. Rodney Nelson says

    I apologize, I missed responding to one comment from yesterday:

    strange gods before me #197

    Rodney, you still owe me an apology for the last time you bullied me. Stop using me as an outlet for your gratuitous malice.

    I don’t apologize to bullies for exposing their bullying. As I told you before, you shitstain, if you don’t want me to call you a bully then there’s a simple fix. Stop bullying people.

    By the way, I am not impressed by you pretending that me calling you the “self-appointed thread police” is in any way bullying. Because that’s all I did. That is not bullying by any stretch of the imagination.

  165. John Morales says

    So… Rodney.

    You will unapologetically thread police the thread police and call-out any calling-out, but you will apologise for failing to promptly respond to a comment.

    (Heh)

  166. strange gods before me ॐ says

    ‘Tis Himself Rodney Nelson, so you won’t again imagine you can get away with cherry picking, I will reiterate what I already pointed out to you: what you should apologize to me for is your claim that I brought up something which I in fact did not bring up, and your claim that I targeted someone. In addition you should apologize to me for claiming that I was playing thread cop and for your using that claim as an occasion to attack me. I like playing Tetris, but you are not justified in claiming that I’m playing Tetris whenever I’m using a keyboard. This is not a moral outrage like advocating genocide, which arguably must not be allowed to rest — attacking me out of the blue, for an annoyance that I’m not doing at the time, is simply gratuitous and demonstrates your malice.

    I don’t apologize to bullies for exposing their bullying.

    You should make the case that I was bullying someone. You should quote something from me which constitues bullying and explain how it does. Failing that, you should apologize to me for claiming that I was doing something which I was not doing.

    As I told you before, you shitstain, if you don’t want me to call you a bully then there’s a simple fix. Stop bullying people.

    How do you justify your bullying of me there in that thread, apropos of nothing?

    By the way, I am not impressed by you pretending that me calling you the “self-appointed thread police” is in any way bullying. Because that’s all I did. That is not bullying by any stretch of the imagination.

    It is indeed bullying, since you attacked me again out of the blue in a thread where I was not even participating.

    Please stop bullying me.

  167. mythbri says

    On the off-chance that there are any “I’m pro-choice, BUT I feel the need to qualify this position so that I can cast judgment on women who make choices I don’t approve of”, I’d like to say the following:

    Dear “I’m pro-choice, BUT I feel the need to qualify this position so that I can cast judgment on women who make choices I don’t approve of”:

    Fuck off.

    Wait, I should probably make it a little more clear about what kinds of people I’m talking about, so that they know that this message is for them.

    You might be a “I’m pro-choice, BUT I feel the need to qualify this position so that I can cast judgment on women who make choices I don’t approve of” person IF:

    1. You think that, in some cases, women need to “take responsibility” for their actions. By this, you mean that women choose to have sex, and therefore they cannot choose NOT to be pregnant as a result of that sex. You think, or at least your attitude displays, that women who choose to have sex, women who choose to have a lot of sex, women who don’t always have safe sex, women who have sex in circumstances that you consider “iffy”, are “sluts”, and therefore need to be “taught” something so that they can mend their slutty, wicked ways.

    2. You think that some women make the “right” choice for them, but that other women make the “selfish” choice. By this, you mean that you feel you are qualified to judge the appropriateness of someone else’s decision about a potentially life-changing situation, without actually being that person. A woman who chooses to have an abortion so that she can keep barely feeding her existing children – sad, but the “right” thing to do. A woman who is young, sexually promiscuous (for whatever “promiscuous” means to you), and seems more “care-free” than you think she should be – not sad, well-deserved, and the selfish bitch could use some “settling down”.

    3. You think that some women might carry a pregnancy almost to term and then randomly decide to have an abortion. By this, you mean that a woman who has endured eight months, three weeks, six days and twenty-three hours of pregnancy has the potential to be flighty and impulsive enough to demand that someone kill her fetus.

    Are we all clear on who I’m talking about now? Yes? Good.

    I say again, fuck off.

    My cousin nearly died last night. She went into eclampsia, in the last month of her pregnancy. She’s nineteen. She’s not married. She takes drugs. She’s unemployed. She’s had multiple sexual partners in her life.

    In short, she is exactly the kind of person that people talk about (but never actually KNOW) when they say, “I’m pro-choice, BUT”.

    You think she’s sexually promiscuous. Let me tell you that it’s hard to develop a healthy sexual attitude when your 20-year-old “boyfriend” coerced you into having sex when you were fourteen.

    You think she’s irresponsible. Yeah, not having a firm support structure will do that to you. Not being allowed to grieve the death of your mother will do that to you. Being told of your mother’s sudden death due to side-effects of medication and then being told, “Okay, now go do your homework” will do that to you. Having your father emotionally abuse you and practically abandon you will do that to you. Being passed around from extended relative to extended relative, not having a stable home for more than a couple of years will do that to you. Being the youngest child in a family where all of your siblings are living far away, leaving you alone in a small, impossible-to-leave-town will do that to you. Living in a town that is mostly white, while you’re an adopted woman of color, will do that to you (along with all the judgments that go along with the “hypersexuality” of women of color). Having your own mother, before she passed, speak of adopting black children as if they were litters of puppies, will do that do you.

    You might even try to seek comfort in bad places. You might accept the friendship of bad people, just so you won’t be alone. You might try to make some of your pain go away by taking drugs.

    You might do that.

    But you know what? “Sluts” die from pregnancy, too. Drug addicts die from pregnancy, too. Pregnancy is a medical condition. It doesn’t care what your circumstances are. It sure as hell doesn’t mete out “justice” or “punishment” for your actions and decisions. It kills “good” women as well as “bad” women.

    But my cousin never had a choice. Not a real choice. She had no money for an abortion. She had no family that would help her if she did. It was all arranged – they would find an adoptive couple, and she would give the baby up. There was no discussion. My cousin didn’t have a say – after all, she brought this on herself, didn’t she? She can’t make choices about what happens to her own body when she depends on other people, can she?

    No real choice for her, and she very nearly paid with her life. She started having seizures. The doctors did an emergency C-section (the baby is small, but should be fine) and continued surgery to try to save my cousin’s life. We don’t know yet if she will have brain damage as a result of those seizures.

    So, to all of you “I’m pro-choice, BUT”:

    Fuck off.

    Who’s the one placing a value judgment on human life, here? Is it me (unequivocally pro-choice, abortion on demand)? Or is it you (I’m pro-choice, BUT)?

  168. Beatrice says

    mythbri,

    I am so sorry about your cousin. I hope she recuperates fully. It’s good that at least she has your support, and I hope she finds more people like that and manages to get the hell out of that town and build a life for herself on her own terms.

  169. mythbri says

    @Beatrice

    Thanks. It’s too soon to tell how she is or what her recovery will be like. But I hope that after that, she will be able to make her own life.

  170. strange gods before me ॐ says

    mythbri,

    Well said. I’m sorry your cousin didn’t have access to reproductive choice. I hope you’ll let us know later about the status of her recovery.

  171. Vilém Saptar says

    I’ve recently been a complete douchecake IRL. Just wanted this on the record. I should probably off meself.Sorry to dump this on you people, but I dunno where else to put this.

    This isn’t a “cry for help” or anything else. Just wanted to note this, somewhere.

  172. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Welcome back, Vilém Saptar.

    I should probably off meself.

    Nah, probably not. Stay a while.

  173. chigau (違う) says

    Vilém Saptar
    Whatever it was you did, it would make more sense to make amends, if possible.

  174. Vilém Saptar says

    Thanks so much, Chigau and SG.

    I’m able to think I’ve not done anything that’s bad enough that I’ve to do myself in…

    I’ve abused someone I’m supposed to be a friend of’s trust despite knowing it was wrong. It’s not irredeemable, but right now the guilt is making me cry and I’m just so sorry that I did what I did.

    I’ll probably be ok, and i don’t want to dump this on anyone or use up people’s energy spent better elsewhere, but want to put this somewhere.

  175. carlie says

    Vilem Saptar – the best way to atone for doing something wrong is to figure out why you did it and resolve to never do it again, and then actually change whatever it was that made you decided to do it in the first place (in other words, don’t just say “I won’t betray anyone’s confidence”, figure out why you did that and fix it, so for example if it was “feel important having knowledge other people didn’t and show it off”, you get at the root of why you needed to feel important, etc.)

    Catching up reading, I agreed with Owlmirror at 207, with the same nyms in mind as SG later named.

    It’s so weird going through old threads. Unlike SG, I can’t remember things I wrote even a week ago, so I have zero recollection of having written things in years-old threads. Yet, when I read through them, as I get the feel of the discussion I find myself having reactions to things people wrote, and then keep reading down and find… me, having had pretty much that excact same reaction at the time as well. I may not remember what I’ve done, but I’m pretty predictable to myself, I guess.

  176. Beatrice says

    Vilém Saptar,

    I second what others have written.

    Since I don’t know what happened, I can’t judge how hard you should or shouldn’t be on yourself. You realized that you have done something wrong. That’s a good start.

  177. Beatrice says

    I’m kinda hoping Edward Gemmer will get himself banned by the time I comment again.

  178. Vilém Saptar says

    It’s not irredeemable

    I had no right to say that. i shouldn’t be the one to decide that. Again, posting here and being listened to feels like i’m making this about myself rather than them. I’m very grateful for all the responses i’m getting but I’m probably undeserving of being listened to. More than whether i’ll be able to make things right, i feel like shit that i betrayed their trust. This, after them being especially trustful of me and always treating me with greater care and love.

    Carlie – To be specific, i furthered my personal standing with them at the cost of something i rationalized was not important to them when i knew in my heart that that was not the case. i did something already and that wont change.

    Beatrice – Sorry for being vague. But i should be hard on myself, i know.

  179. mythbri says

    Thanks on behalf of my cousin for all of the well-wishing, from everyone here.

    My cousin will be in the hospital for four days and have at least a three-month recovery from the emergency c-section, but the doctors don’t think that she’s suffered any permanent neurological damage.

    The baby is fine. Small, and will be in the NICU for a little bit, but he should be good. His adoptive parents are there waiting to take him home with them.

    I hope his life as an adopted child is much different than his birth-mother’s.

  180. Vilém Saptar says

    Also, i haven’t read this thread and i dunno if i’m interrupting something that’s really important, i’m sorry. I feel i don’t deserve being here, but i wanted to put this somewhere. I’m going to go off now.

    You people are so great, i’m sorry to be not staying back and not continuing talking to you it feels so rude. But i can’t stand myself being comforted right now. Sorry if this doesn’t make sense.

  181. Ogvorbis: useless says

    Vilém Saptar

    First, on these open threads, ‘interrupting’ is normal.

    Second, the well-being of people is always of paramount importance.

    Third (and I know this from very personal experience), the depth of knowledge, understanding, reality, and empathy among the commentariat is mindblowing. I have used them (with their knowledge) as virtual therapy to help me work through some abuse that I suffered and abuse that I committed (abuse that still stands in the unforgivable category for me, though the commentariat think otherwise). I don’t know your situation but, when you feel ready to write about it here, I will read and try to offer something constructive.

  182. carlie says

    But i can’t stand myself being comforted right now. Sorry if this doesn’t make sense.

    Completely understandable. You’re upset with yourself, and feel like you need to be punished, not made to feel better. Work through it how you need to, but keep in mind that you can’t change the past, all you can do is try to make amends as far as is wanted by the aggrieved party and is possible, and then try to not do such things in the future.

  183. Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death) says

    Mythbri:
    I am sorry to hear about your cousin. Hopefully she will be able to make a swift recovery.

  184. Tony the Queer Shoop (owner of the pink cotton ball of death) says

    Vielem Saptar:
    Please, don’t off yourself. I don’t know what you did that was so wrong, but this being the only existence we know of, you would be unable to seek redemption and be the person you want to be. The fact that you feel guilt for your actions says something good about your character.

    Oh, and please think on Ogvorbis’ wise words @262.

  185. David Marjanović says

    windy is on Facebook under her meatspace name, and Chas is right about her as far as I can tell.

    So Rodney Nelson is our favorite plagiator? Good to know.

  186. Ogvorbis: useless says

    Vilém Saptar:

    I second what Tony says about “the fact that you feel guilt for your actions says something good about your character.”

    I feel immense guilt about what happened and what I did. The commentariat keeps telling me that feeling bad about it shows that I am a good person. I don’t always believe them, but I think they are right.

  187. John Morales says

    Ogvorbis,

    I feel immense guilt about what happened and what I did. The commentariat keeps telling me that feeling bad about it shows that I am a good person.

    What the then-you was manipulated into doing.

    <pedant>

  188. Ogvorbis: useless says

    What the then-you was manipulated into doing.

    Revisionism is natural to historians. I judge my previous behaviours through the evidence at hand today. And there are things I could have/should have done. I know that I didn’t have the tools then to make the right decision but I still think I was wrong even though I’m not sure I had a choice. Which makes no sense when judging my own life but that’s my fault.

    Anyway, I appreciate the support.

  189. strange gods before me ॐ says

    So Rodney Nelson is our favorite plagiator?

    Flagrantly so.

    Unless Google is failing me, “Rodney Nelson”’s first comment was in Thunderdome 4, when people were asking ‘Tis Himself to answer for, or at least acknowledge, his plagiarism.

    .
    .
    .
    But personally, my favorite plagiarist is Wooly Bumblebee, who at least eventually sorta acknowledged using Tim Field as a source.

  190. carlie says

    Unless Google is failing me, “Rodney Nelson”’s first comment was in Thunderdome 4, when people were asking ‘Tis Himself to answer for, or at least acknowledge, his plagiarism.

    Wow, he didn’t even wait for the last ‘nym to get cold before adopting a new one? That’s harsh.

  191. John Morales says

    In the news: Indian lawyers refuse to defend gang rape accused.

    “We have decided that no lawyer will stand up to defend the rape accused as it would be immoral to defend the case,” said Sanjay Kumar, a lawyer and a member of the Saket District Bar Council.

    Mr Kumar said the 2,500 advocates registered at the court had decided to “stay away” to ensure “speedy justice”, meaning the government would have to appoint lawyers for the defendants.

    (What Would Walton Say?)

  192. opposablethumbs says

    Mythbri, I am so sorry about your cousin. I hope she will be OK. THANK YOU for posting what you did, what it really means when people say “I am pro-choice … BUT”
    .
    Vilém Saptar, what the others have said. Maybe there is a way you can make amends, or maybe you can only determine future behaviour – but either way, please take on board what others say upthread especially Ogvorbis @262

  193. dianne says

    @274: I don’t know what Walton would say, but I don’t like it. Everyone is supposed to have a right to have an advocate in court. Do we even have strong evidence that they arrested the right men? Remember the Central Park rape case?

  194. chigau (違う) says

    dianne #276
    Agreed.
    If we abandon presumption of innocence, why bother with a trial?

  195. Rawnaeris, FREEZE PEACHES says

    Holy fuck I’m in complete ragemode. A fatwa that redefines rape as ‘temporary marriage’? Tempo-fucking-rary marriage. How the fuck do these fuckbrained asswipe douchecanoe evil humans even come up with this shit?
     
    I can’t even come up with a worse insult than human.

  196. Vilém Saptar says

    Here to say i’m holding steady and no one should have to worry about me for now.

    I had a couple of really bad times when i felt crushed and pathetic beyond all hope as i realized my friend doesn’t want to have anything to do with me right now. I desperately hope i can do something for them even if they never forgive me. I would give anything for that.

    It’s not irredeemable

    I’m specially ashamed i wrote that. I really don’t understand what made me say that. I was trying to say i will probably be able to make some amends, but instead ended up using words that are assholey.

    Ogvorbis – You’re exactly right about the commenters here. That’s why i could only think of one place to go to with this. I’m very grateful for your offer to listen and help, but i’m just not deserving of that.

    Tony, opposablethumbs – I doubt me being a good person at all.

    I also feel guilty about coming here only when i was in the need of this place so I’m going to stop posting here. Thanks everyone for your support.

  197. Crip Dyke, MQ, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Okay, the Fatwa is appalling, but I have something else to mention.

    There’s been some talk about Michael Kimmel on a couple threads since Caine started reading Manhood In America.

    I don’t know the guy, but I loathe his past trans oppression.

    About 13-17 years ago (I don’t keep track of that type of trivia) MK spoke at a conference at which I was also speaking. He was giving a precis of how he tries to educate football teams and frat houses on sexism and the effects on men created by the necessity of sexist masculinity in a sexist environment. His strategems weren’t bad per se, but nothing revolutionary. What was exciting about his work was not the work itself, but that he was allowed to go in to locker rooms and frat houses to do it. His insights seemed, well, second rate. But, nonetheless, a white guy doing feminism in bastions of masculine separatism was useful (and, unfortunately, notable) so his work was valued.

    Which meant that some people, unfortunately, valued his opinions and thinking skills. During Q&A, one person raised a hand to ask, “So then, what are your thoughts on transgendered people?” [an exact quote, with the possible exception of the first 2 words]

    He began his answer quite well, saying something to the effect of, “That’s not my area/don’t know much.” If he had stopped there, I actually would have been impressed. I love the admission of ignorance: it’s vital to learning.

    But sadly no. He went on to say that, “from everything I’ve seen,. the stereotypes are right on,” [again a near exact quote] and proceeded to talk about how “transgendered” people are “hyper-feminine”.

    I raise my hand and he announced that he wouldn’t take any more questions or comments on “transgendered” issues as he had said what he intended to say and that he had nothing more to add and that if we wanted to talk about it more we could go elsewhere.

    I have rarely been so pissed at a presenter in the room, presenting to me.

    I have not since read anything by him (the only things I’ve read were a couple of things published before that conference to be prepared for what he might say).

    By now, he might very well have discovered that FtM people exist. Who knows, his thinking on gender may no longer be routinely binary but predominantly address gender as multi-faceted.

    But I know that the kind of “both men AND women” or “Both genders” crap that I mostly ignore from other authors would be anything other than thoughtlessly ignorant from him – and so would drive me to distraction. He made clear that he is aware of trans people and endorses the non-existance of FtM folk and the transmisogynist assumptions about and responses to MtF folk.

    If I could uncover a page of his work on the latest, greatest topic in any movement for justice by kicking him, I wouldn’t bother.

    I dont’ hang out much in TD, but I’ll be checking back in case people wanna talk about this.

  198. Beatrice says

    If we could get their weight in money for our collective guilt complexes, we could buy a large(ish) island for the commune.

    Vilém Saptar,

    Keep us updated occasionally, ok? And no need to feel guilty about coming here with your problems, no one resents you that.

  199. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Keep us updated occasionally, ok? And no need to feel guilty about coming here with your problems, no one resents you that.

    Seconded.

  200. opposablethumbs says

    Vilém Saptar, not wanting to go off at too much of a tangent but honestly I get far more from this place than I contribute – in a sense you could boil down 99% of everything I say to basically “thank you Horde for being interesting and inspiring and full of information” – but I think that can be OK (I hope it is) and I do think it’s good that you came; and don’t stop posting; stay! Everybody fucks up sometimes; at least you are aware of it, regret it and are trying to think of what you can do about it!

    Don’t go. This can be a good place to try and work things out?

  201. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Unless Google is failing me, “Rodney Nelson”’s first comment was in Thunderdome 4, when people were asking ‘Tis Himself to answer for, or at least acknowledge, his plagiarism.

    Correction: that was the first day he commented here, but Thunderdome was his third comment. Here’s his first.

    And his second comment was plagiarized from Wikipedia.

    ‘Tis Himself Rodney Nelson:

    The Sumerian archaic cuneiform script and the Egyptian hieroglyphs are generally considered the earliest true writing systems, both emerging out of their ancestral proto-literate symbol systems from 3400–3200 BCE with the earliest coherent texts from about 2600 BCE.

    Wikipedia’s “History of writing” article:

    The Sumerian archaic cuneiform script and the Egyptian hieroglyphs are generally considered the earliest true writing systems, both emerging out of their ancestral proto-literate symbol systems from 3400–3200 BC with earliest coherent texts from about 2600 BC.

  202. says

    Ok if anyone missed it in the previous comments section but is interested,I have gathered together my transcript and commentary on thunderf00ts video. I’ve tried to edit it a bit for clarity, typos, and a few new links and posted it on my blog. So it’s now all in one convenient place.

    http://haphazardhermit.blogspot.ca/2013/01/a-response-to-thunderf00ts-latest-video.html

    Now instead of being buried in the comments over here it’ll be hidden in a blog with no readers. It is currently the most viewed post with 17 views! ;p

  203. Tigger_the_Wing says

    Sending good wishes to your cousin, mythbri. That is so terrifying. I hope that the people looking after her now take the best care and she is soon fit and healthy. It’s appalling that your cousin was coerced into giving up her son rather than making the choice for herself as to what to do when she found out she was pregnant.

    I had pre-eclampsia with my last (twin) pregnancy, probably because of a combination between cardiovascular problems, age (I was 35) and more-than-one-fœtus. At 33 weeks, my legs were swollen beyond belief and my kidneys were passing protein but the hospital sent me home anyway and I went into spontaneous labour at 34 weeks.

    Some hospitals seem to be staffed with idiots.

    The boys were 5lb11oz and 4lb1½oz. It was the bigger one, oddly enough, who needed the incubator; the little one’s lungs were mature and working perfectly! After a couple of weeks in SCBU, they came home and thrived. They are now nearly twenty years old and are 6’2″ and 5’7″ respectively. Your cousin’s baby will be fine too, I hope.

    Hopefully, the attitude that prevailed when your cousin was adopted has gone for good. My sister and her husband adopted their son from South Korea, picking him up when he was five months old. Other than the fact that they are three different races, they are no different to a so-called ‘normal’ family (is there really any such thing?). He’s now 11 and the happiest kid you could imagine, with a mum and dad who adore him and who he adores in turn. Adoptions don’t always go wrong.

  204. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    please dont let this get pathetic

  205. John Morales says

    Rodney, you are clearly repudiating the insinuation you and ‘Tis Himself are the same poster.

    (I remain ambivalent, but can’t dispute you)

  206. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    I love that song, CM.

    Trufax true story time: my grandfather had a thing for organs. Like, he had a full-size pipe organ installed in his house. And he would play it regularly.

    I remember clearly one time going to that house. We arrived so late at night it was early morning, and there was a terrible storm. We walk into the house, and there is my grandmother, sitting in her pajamas, wearing a tight smile. And there, perched on the organ’s bench, his hair wild, was my grandfather.

    Playing Toccata and Fugue in D minor. :D :D

  207. John Morales says

    ॐ, circumstantial evidence is circumstantial, and apart from certain foibles, both Himself and Rodney are good commenters, regardless.

  208. strange gods before me ॐ says

    circumstantial evidence is circumstantial,

    Yeah, like fingerprints. Like his habits of plagiarism, and harassing me then trying to make some stupid deal where he says he’ll stop harassing me if I stop doing something I’m not doing.

    and apart from certain foibles, both Himself and Rodney are good commenters, regardless.

    I don’t think that’s in dispute. And I liked “Rodney Nelson” just fine until he started up his old vendetta again.

    But he’s also a plagiarist who’ll outright lie to everyone here and string them along for unclear but evidently bizarre reasons.

  209. Cyranothe2nd says

    @ Crip Dyke #280

    There’s been some talk about Michael Kimmel on a couple threads…I don’t know the guy, but I loathe his past trans oppression.

    Wow, I did not know that! Thanks for the heads up.

  210. cm's changeable moniker says

    As a chorister, I sang in front of this bad boy. It’s very loud. ;-)

    Oh, and my dad had a Hammond and a Leslie cabinet.

    My childhood was all sorts of loud.

  211. says

    Since late last year, moderators on a certain phpBB forum I could mention have been able to examine IP addresses used to register user accounts and submit comments; this has been done primarily to detect spammers and out sock-puppeteers. So after the disappearance of a certain commenter who I will call [Old_Nym], it came as no surprise to find two new accounts being registered by someone from the same IP address as one of [Old_Nym]’s posts, accounts with names more or less the same as [NewNym] or [New_Nym]. So the certainty of such a conjunction, given the facts about the distribution of IP addresses, to my mind guarantee the holders of those accounts are one and the same person.

  212. Owlmirror says

    I have not posted here under another name.

    Huh.

    The various matters of similarities in age, history, tastes, interests, and bad intellectual habits, etc. might be dismissed as an unusual coincidence, but they leave unexplained the crucially important fact that first led to the inference of identity being expressed here in this thread.

    What reason could Rodney Nelson have for hating SGBM so much that he would misread SGBM’s comments and accuse SGBM of doing something that he was not doing, and then refuse all correction on the matter? Please, be verbose and explicit.

  213. Aratina Cage says

    Huh. I’m a little stunned to see my nym come up on this thread. What did I win? :)

    Tsk, tsk, tsk, ‘Tis. Also, that little ditty you quoted of Campbell’s over at Butterflies&Wheels sent me into a sputtering rage for a minute or two when I read it over a month ago. A job at 7-11 considered “heaven” over commercial fishing? I almost bit your head off, and I wouldn’t have even known it was you, which makes me sad that you would disguise yourself like that but also glad that I walked away.

  214. Aratina Cage says

    And that old thread with maggie brings back the memories. It has much of what I love about this place, including not just one arrogant Christian yearning to experience what it’s like to step into the lions’ den at meal time, but two! I even changed my nym in that thread after maggie called us “swine”.

  215. says

    Hi rorschach, it’s not sequential use of different pseudonyms that’s the problem here, but the dishonesty of evading accusations of blatant plagiarism by inventing a completely new persona and lying about one’s previous identity… In spite of what [New_Nym] has said about never posting here under any other name, there IS a link between [Old_Nym] and [New_Nym], so such a claim looks strongly like a lie. New nym, but old tricks.

  216. carlie says

    hat reason could Rodney Nelson have for hating SGBM so much that he would misread SGBM’s comments and accuse SGBM of doing something that he was not doing, and then refuse all correction on the matter?

    Honestly, I missed all the signs until then. I’m more than a bit obtuse, but that was like a Times Square-sized huge blinking neon billboard.

  217. Owlmirror says

    IP addresses, by the way, are not entirely solid proof. And even if they were, I suspect that PZ would not reveal whether or not ‘Tis Himself and Rodney Nelson share an IP address, because Rodney Nelson has not offered any threats of violence. In the absence of such threats, and given that ‘Tis Himself was not banned to the dungeon (and therefore this putative morphing was not to evade banning), I think PZ has a policy of erring on the side of protecting anonymity and privacy.

  218. Ogvorbis: useless says

    I’m tossing this here because I am about to speak ill of another commenter.

    Holy Shit, jacksul is pissing me off no end. I just lost my temper and dropped a totally incoherent rant and I do not feel sorry about it at all. Fuck, what an ass!

  219. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Honestly, I missed all the signs until then.

    So did I. So did Owlmirror, evidently. Did anyone suspect earlier? Maybe Xanthë did, but Xanthë apparently has access to more information than most of us.

    +++++

    IP addresses, by the way, are not entirely solid proof.

    Depends on the address — how it’s allocated, and which services run on/behind it. Not to tell you anything you don’t know, but for the benefit of others: sometimes millions of people are on the same address (notoriously, AOL), while sometimes one person can come unpredictably from anywhere in a block of millions of IP addresses (to keep Hyperdouche off the wiki, I had to softblock his entire ISP, a /12 block corresponding to about a million addresses).

    Interpretation requires some experience, but can be very reliable.

    +++++
    jacksul is indeed a condescending shit.

  220. carlie says

    So, should we now be on the lookout for a new commenter who was an actuary in the Marines?

  221. cm's changeable moniker says

    Estelesh, that’s awesome. (Sorry, should have said that earlier.)

    My dad’s usually to be found at the keyboard playing Beatles or something bossa nova. m-)

    In return: Cameron Carpenter plays BWV 565.

  222. says

    Rorschach, you may recall visiting this particular forum at some point last year and making several comments; more than several Pharyngula regulars have accounts there. I link to a particularly relevant thread:

    http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=134&p=3199#p3601

    [Old_Nym] hasn’t been back since September — at about that time someone posting from one of his IP addresses registered two new accounts which have never been activated. The new accounts are variations on [NewNym] or [New_Nym]

  223. Aratina Cage says

    Indulgences? Then I confess to everything! :P

    @Xanthë
    And who would have guessed that [Old_Nym] at the A+ forum was plagiarizing again? *grumble* I’d say it’s curtains for Rodney Nelson. Dear ‘Tis, when will we see you again?

  224. Aratina Cage says

    @theophontes
    I meant for you to compare the macroeconomicky link in #324 with the link Xanthë provided in #322. But you know what, I didn’t scroll down in the forum and see that strange gods already called him out for it over there on the A+ forum a long time ago. :P So, never mind.

  225. says

    Krasnaya Koshka

    The whole shaming of alcoholics makes it much nicer to keep on being drunk. When you’re sober you hear about how awful you were when you were drunk and when you’re drunk you don’t care. It’s a coping strategy. A horribly poor one, of course. One that no one uses unless they are alcoholics.

    I know you have a really hard time now with a drunken ex but if maybe alcoholics weren’t so shamed and unable to get help (“let them go home from the hospital in their pissed on/vomited on clothes”) this would improve.

    Sorry, doesn’t fly.
    Maybe I had a bit too much of “if you only catered to my every whim I wouldn’t have to drink”. So, I agree that shaming and blaming isn’t exactly helpful, but why do you think it’s OK to do that to us whose lives are the colateral damage of that shit?
    What are we supposed to say? Mum, I really liked it how you left me all alone with grandma while I had a horrible infection that meant I could hardly care for myself while you were drunk in bed? Mum, I really appreciate how you didn’t manage to show up for your grandchild’s birthday because you were drunk in bed? Act like nothing was wrong whatsoever? We did that for way too long and it nearly broke us, all of us. To stop lying about it was actually one big step towards saving ourselves.
    And no, my mum wasn’t left alone with the AA. She has healthcare, mental healthcare and a family that loves her and who would have gone every way with her except the one she went. She could have gone to a clinic 500km away and yes, we would have said “burn out” or “heart disease” to the rest of the world. She was in no danger of losing her house, her job, her livelyhood, her family.
    Yes, I understand, that was still not enough to flip the switch, to break the camel’s back, to push the button. But there’s only so much help the rest of the world can give. And I’m NOT taking the fucking blame for this. I’m NOT taking the blame for making her drink because I was oh such a horrible daughter. If I had only been perfect. If I had only left my child in the care of somebody who’s drunk. If only I hadn’t made her drink. Because yes, been there, done that.
    Fuck that shit.
    It doesn’t matter now anyway because most likely it’s too late.
    But about that choosing? Yes, there actually is a time when you can choose. You don’t become an alcoholic by drinking your first glass of beer. You become a critical drinker. You’re not yet an alcoholic. You could change your drinking habbits and actually still enjoy an occasional drink or two. And yes, there is a time-frame. And yes we knew it, and yes mum knew it. I remember talking to her about it YEARS ago. That’s also a chance I realize many people don’t get. And there was that choice. It was there without the shame and blame attached. Before she started to hurt her family with this. But still everybody else is somehow to blame.

    Okay, so think how the person feels who is causing you so much pain.

    Well, what’s that supposed to achieve? Make me feel guilty for being hurt? The person who causes me that much pain is most likely fucking dying. I’m losing my mum.

    WMD Kitty
    Addiction as a disease has been long established. Please, no armchair-MD here. It’s bullshit. It’s a disease and the worst part about it is that one of the symptoms is that you won’t seek help to have it cured. Underlying psychological issues might have caused it, but it turns the solution into a problem. Or maybe you were just damn unlucky to fall in with the wrong kind of friends and be young and naive and become the wrong kind of friends to other people,

    It has been MY experience that most “addictions” are nothing more than self-medication, and that when the underlying issues are treated, the “addiction” goes away.

    Read. The. Literature. Really. Anecdotes aren’t evidence.

    I am pointing out that, YES, YOU HAVE A CHOICE. You can CHOOSE to keep drinking and drugging, OR you can CHOOSE to get proper medical care, including psychiatric support, and get to the root of the problem, thereby allowing you to treat the addiction. I want people to get the help they need. In what world is it a Bad Thing to suggest someone get healthy?

    No, you fucking can’t. I mean, you can, but really, that’s not very helpful. It’s like habitually telling a smoker that they should quit because of lung-cancer or telling a fat person to do some fucking exercise because of cardiovascular disease. Do you think that works? Do you think they don’t know? If the answer is NO, why do you think that would work with an alcoholic?

    The model of “addict as victim” only keeps people from actually dealing with their issues.

    Remember that more than one level exists? The fact that they hurt and victimize other people doesn’t mean that they themsleves are not victims. Stop using the scarequotes around “disease”. It’s a medical fact. That you don’t agree with it is your problem.

  226. Beatrice says

    There are also alcoholics who would be assholes even without the alcohol, alcohol just gives them a bit of a boost or a convenient excuse.
    From what I’m getting from Azkyroth’s comments, his ex might as well belong to that category.

  227. Owlmirror says

    The appearance of the dumbshit “owlglass” made me wonder what is this thing about owls and optics?
     
    Also, it is confirmed that Owlmirror really is public enemy number one.

    *shakes fist in helpless existential outrage at all the assholes and morons gratuitously using my ‘nym*

    I was Owlmirror before it was cool!

    I wonder if I should change it to something a little more unique?

    “Funhouse Owlmirror”?
    “Objective Owlmirror”? (Oh, fuck no)
    “Signal Owlmirror”?
    “Owlmirror test”?
    “Owlmirror and the Phoenix”?
    “Phase-conjugate Owlmirror”?
    “Parabolic Owlmirror”?

  228. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Rorschach, you may recall visiting this particular forum at some point last year and making several comments; more than several Pharyngula regulars have accounts there. I link to a particularly relevant thread:

    http://atheismplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=134&p=3199#p3601

    [Old_Nym] hasn’t been back since September — at about that time someone posting from one of his IP addresses registered two new accounts which have never been activated. The new accounts are variations on [NewNym] or [New_Nym]

    uh oh

  229. Janine: Hallucinating Liar says

    I am getting just a little bit tired of assclams with their collective heads rammed up their collective asses telling us the we live in a society that does have equality between the genders.

    In California, a rape conviction was overturned because the victim was not married.

    A California appeals court overturned the rape conviction of a man who authorities say pretended to be a sleeping woman’s boyfriend before initiating intercourse, ruling that an arcane law from 1872 doesn’t protect unmarried women in such cases.

    A panel of judges reversed the trial court’s conviction of Julio Morales and remanded it for retrial, in a decision posted Wednesday from the Los Angeles-based court.

    Morales had been sentenced to three years in state prison. He was accused of entering a woman’s bedroom late one night after her boyfriend had gone home and initiating sexual intercourse while she was asleep, after a night of drinking.

    The victim said her boyfriend was in the room when she fell asleep, and they’d decided against having sex that night because he didn’t have a condom and he had to be somewhere early the next day.

    Morales pretended to be her boyfriend in the darkened room, and it wasn’t until a ray of light from outside the room flashed across his face that she realized he wasn’t her boyfriend, according to prosecutors.

    “Has the man committed rape? Because of historical anomalies in the law and the statutory definition of rape, the answer is no, even though, if the woman had been married and the man had impersonated her husband, the answer would be yes,” Judge Thomas L. Willhite Jr. wrote in the court’s decision.

    What the everliving fuck!

  230. says

    @ carlie

    Owlscry

    That is not exactly the kind of nym that is going to strike abject terror in the hearts and minds of the myriad myrmidon minions on this thread. (I have it on good authority that teh Owlmirror likes to eat peas and ride horses. Perhaps you could work that into it somehow?)

  231. Pteryxx says

    More on that overturned rape conviction because unmarried:

    http://www.salon.com/2013/01/04/california_court_victim_wasnt_married_rape_conviction_reversed/

    But Morales’ lawyer also claimed that his client hadn’t done anything to trick Jane into thinking she was with her boyfriend, and that California law only explicitly makes it a crime to trick someone into having sex if she believes she’s having sex with her husband. That’s technically true of the law. The judges said that because they couldn’t be sure whether the jury had convicted Morales based on correct theory (that she was unconscious) rather than the incorrect one (he pretended to be someone else), the whole case had to be retried.

    Whether rape law is supposed to protect against violence or against broader violation — “physical security” versus “sexual autonomy,” as one of the papers the judges cited puts it — is also at the heart of the issue. Prioritizing physical security privileges force or violence, as opposed to other forms of coercion, like psychological or professional. Historically, courts have been divided: Sometimes they made a distinction between fraud in the fact (the person didn’t consent to have sex) and fraud in the inducement (the person consented to sex under false pretenses).

    […]

    But in the absence of an explicit law like that, courts across the country have often taken the narrower view of consent. For example, in the 1994 case of a twin impersonating his brother in order to have sex with his brother’s girlfriend (the same premise of this creeptastic Hornitos commercial) the court ruled that it wasn’t rape because New York state law didn’t explicit include fraud as obviating consent. (It still doesn’t).

    The judges recommended changing the law so that getting consent under false pretenses is fraud, and thus rape, regardless of marital status.

  232. Portia, sporty and glam, pelted with pastries says

    There are also alcoholics who would be assholes even without the alcohol, alcohol just gives them a bit of a boost or a convenient excuse.

    YES. This is my aunt. My awful, nasty, manipulative alcoholic aunt. I’ve taken to avoiding her at family gatherings, because when she pins me into conversation, she is outright nasty or just really, really passive aggressive. So now, she follows me from room to room and inserts herself into conversations I’m in or tries to force me to hug her. I don’t know what percentage is the disease or what percentage is her just being an asshole, but I don’t care. I have recently decided that I don’t have to put up with it either way.

  233. says

    I’ll post this hear instead of the lounge to keep it more of a pallet cleanse…

    If anyone is interested, someone decided to post justin vacula’s video response to thunderf00t v nugent over at butterflies with wheels. Although I didn’t transcribe it (just paraphrase his points with time stamps) I did to a briefer work through of the video. By the time I posted it though his comments were deleted so I’m not sure I’ll be hearing back from them. If anyone would be interested in another masochistic response on my part you can find it at Ophelia’s blog or on my underused blog.

    SQUEEEEE. I have comments!!! I have comments on MY blog!!!! My poor little neglected blog with no focus and no readership is moving up in the world. They were by Maria Maltseva… but its a start. ^.^

  234. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    @Michaeld

    Someone did that here too.

  235. says

    @Ing

    Maybe it was the same guy? Who knows, I missed it here but i saw it over there this time my reply gets put over there. If anyone wants to read it they can if not that’s ok too.

    I also just kind of wanted to squee about my comments >.>
    I have comments on my blog! Its gone to my head and I haven’t gotten over it yet o.o

    Urgh maybe I’m posting too much <.< nothing to see here carry on.

  236. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Michaeld

    Lord Krockoduck or something like that?

  237. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    Yup he did a cut and paste here.

  238. consciousness razor says

    I wonder if I should change it to something a little more unique?

    Rational Owlmirror, Über-Skeptic & board-certified Nice Guy

  239. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Giliell (responding to comments in this thread),

    So, I agree that shaming and blaming isn’t exactly helpful, but why do you think it’s OK to do that to us whose lives are the colateral damage of that shit?

    Krasnaya doesn’t think that. You read something into her words that wasn’t there.

    And I’m NOT taking the fucking blame for this. I’m NOT taking the blame for making her drink because I was oh such a horrible daughter. If I had only been perfect. If I had only left my child in the care of somebody who’s drunk. If only I hadn’t made her drink. Because yes, been there, done that. Fuck that shit.

    And this makes sense directed at the world in general, or perhaps your mother in particular. But it doesn’t make sense directed at Krasnaya, who didn’t suggest you should take any blame.

    The “let them go home from the hospital in their pissed on/vomited on clothes” bit that she referenced, in her reply to Azkyroth, was from this comment above, here in thunderdome.

    See also 543 back in the lounge.

  240. chigau (違う) says

    broboxley #351
    Charming.
    Nothing like reacting to reactions to injustice with suggestions of genocide.
    [I kinda liked the “General Custer for the win!” comment.]

  241. John Morales says

    Stupid conspicuous consumption entertains people: Burning rubber record set at Summernats.

    Dozens of the country’s most powerful street machines rewrote the record books with the largest simultaneous burnout.

    It was an incredible show of engineering, noise and muscle as 69 cars managed to maintain the burnout for 10 seconds, smothering the crowd with thick, toxic fumes.

    Australian representative of Guinness World Records Chris Sheedy said it was and [sic] impressive sight.

    “This is a fantastic part of my job,” he said.

  242. Ogvorbis: useless says

    Beer Battered Onion Rings

    (you do have beer, right?)

    Batter:

    3/4 cup flour
    3/4 cup corn starch
    1/2 tsp baking soda
    1 Tbsp sifted powdered sugar
    2 tsp salt
    1/2 tsp granulated garlic
    1/4 tsp paprika
    1/2 to 3/4 cup dark hearty ale

    ========

    1/2 cup flour
    1/2 tsp salt
    2 large onions, peeled, topped, and sliced about 8mm thick

    ========

    Mix together the dry batter ingredients. Stir in the ale and 1/2 cup water to make a light batter. Add more beer if needed.

    Place the flour and salt in a sack. Add the onion rings and shake the sack to coat the onion rings with flour.

    Heat about 7.5cm of vegetable oil to 350F in a deep and heavy pan. Dip the onion rings in the batter a few at a time. Fry in small batches about 2 minutes. Drain on paper towels. Toss on salt to your taste and enjoy.

    (From Pacific Northwest The Beautiful Cookbook, Casey (1993)

  243. Rawnaeris, FREEZE PEACHES says

    Bloody hell, I’m remembering why a lot of women won’t play female toons in WoW. I just started a new toon, and what’s the first thing happens? A male toon assumes I know jack crap. Assumes that this is my first toon ever. And then, 5 minutes into a logical grouping with him, he asks for my facebook. Twice. Told the fuck I’d block him if he asked again. So what’s he do? Starts whining that I’m being rude.
    Fucker. >:-(

  244. chigau (違う) says

    I have no popcorn but I made some quick guacamole to watch the gender discussion in the Lounge.
    (not in a bad way, I intend to read and learn)

  245. Ogvorbis: useless says

    Rawnaeris:

    Well, this is a post-sexist world, rite?

    chigau:

    I am literally eating popcorn as I read this discussion. And am blown away.

  246. Gnumann+, Invoker of Mansplaining says

    Bloody hell, I’m remembering why a lot of women won’t play female toons in WoW. I just started a new toon, and what’s the first thing happens? A male toon assumes I know jack crap. Assumes that this is my first toon ever. And then, 5 minutes into a logical grouping with him, he asks for my facebook. Twice. Told the fuck I’d block him if he asked again. So what’s he do? Starts whining that I’m being rude.
    Fucker. >:-(

    Partly the reason I roll female toons on online games.
    It gives me a valuable lesson in empathy
    It gives me the chance to mess with sexist idiots
    And in the more vicious ones it might give me the occasional edge (hey, I really needed it when I started EVE.)

    This besides the fact that the usual “hunk of muscle” body form many cater to doesn’t appeal to me at all.

  247. cm's changeable moniker says

    Hmmm.

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia […]

    Toon is a term popularized by the 1988 film Who Framed Roger Rabbit; it commonly refers to characters appearing in cartoons. Related to this usage are:

    Toon (role-playing game), a role-playing game published by Steve Jackson Games in which the players take the parts of cartoon characters
    Toontown Online, an online computer role-playing game

    Places

    Newcastle upon Tyne, for “town” as pronounced in the English Geordie dialect
    Newcastle United F.C., a football (soccer) team also nicknamed “The Toon”
    Tōon, Ehime, a Japanese city in Ehime Prefecture
    Toon, the former name of Ferdows, a city in South Khorasan Province, Iran
    Toon, Somaliland, a town in the Garoodi region of Somaliland

    Other

    Toon, a tree in the genus Toona

    I have to say, I’m most likely to take “Newcastle United F.C.”

    (And did you see the result against Arsenal? *ouch* *headshake*)

    Do I want to know what a “toon” is in WoW?

  248. says

    @Aratina

    @Xanthë
    And who would have guessed that [Old_Nym] at the A+ forum was plagiarizing again? *grumble* I’d say it’s curtains for Rodney Nelson.

    I suspected so, however he is still posting over at B&W (spotted on the UN v FGM thread earlier today) and would guess there will be another mask created in the near future if he is gauche enough to return to Pharyngula. Since [Old_Nym]/[New_Nym] has generally been a reasonable commenter, it would be highly preferable for him to admit to his dishonesty, rather than repeating the cycle of establishing a new persona, building up a good reputation, and then squandering it by returning to old vendettas and his long-entrenched habit of plagiarism.

    I’d assumed the [New_Nym] mask was evidence of him wanting to dissociate himself from his past dishonesty and wished to believe he’d turned over a new leaf, but I evidently missed some of the signs of him returning to his old habits — for example, in the thread where the ‘Thread Police’ accusation had been made (linked in comment #243), I had read it when there were only 50 or so comments, and the nastiness that ensued in that thread came after that point. So I’d seen [New_Nym]’s first comment there, but not the subsequent ones which targeted sgbm ॐ.

    As I said before, I have information which is strongly suggestive of one of the comments made here by [New_Nym] being an outright lie. Will he be back to make answer? The previous disappearance of [Old_Nym] suggests, no. This seems to be an absurd point of vain pride in needing his intellect, knowledge, and experience to be respected. This is a narcissist’s fallacy. There’d be a lot more respect offered if he duly cited his sources rather than ostentatiously wearing stolen plumage.

  249. carlie says

    Will he be back to make answer? The previous disappearance of [Old_Nym] suggests, no. This seems to be an absurd point of vain pride in needing his intellect, knowledge, and experience to be respected. This is a narcissist’s fallacy. There’d be a lot more respect offered if he duly cited his sources rather than ostentatiously wearing stolen plumage.

    Yeah. Whatever. I know I never had any clout with him, but I did make a bunch of sincerely felt comments about the effect his actions and silence had on me, at least. It was obviously well within his purview not to care what I said (I’m nothing but a random commenter on the internet, so there’s no reason why he should have cared), but knowing now that he most probably was reading along and saw mine and everyone else’s comments and at the time was commenting under a different name entirely while ignoring that… well, my level of caring about what’s going on with him now matches the amount he obviously has about his effect on us.

  250. says

    My onion rings are not as elaborate as Ogvorbis’, but I like ‘em.
    Sice the onions (the sweeter the better) very thin. A mandolin is useful here.
    Like Oggie’s, combine flour, a little powdered sugar, salt, pepper, cayenne, nutmeg, and garlic powder in a bag. Add the onion and shake the shit out of it to coat. Let them sit for at least 15 minutes then fry as Oggie recommended and drain. Salt to taste.

    I imagine it would be a very different style, without the batter, but if the onion is sweet, it’s really tasty. More a delicious tangle than the traditional onion rings.

  251. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    My recipe for onion rings is very similar to Oggie’s, with a few small variations, namely:

    Take the same batter.
    Dip halibut in it.
    Fry.

    Throw out the damn onions, they’re gross.

  252. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    Cod also works. Any whitefish, really.

  253. Rawnaeris, FREEZE PEACHES says

    @ cm’s changeable moniker, “toon” is slang for a playable character in WoW, as they are cartoon avatars.
     
    Well, I don’t know if this is to my credit or his, but he did ‘apologize’ for asking for my fb, and then left me alone after I refused to regroup with him.
     
    I’m getting tired of the lazy sexist bullshit in gaming. And people wonder why I prefer single player games.

  254. Rawnaeris, FREEZE PEACHES says

    As an afterthought, is there a guild that has a fair number of Pharyngulites in it? What server?

  255. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Been a couple days.

    Vilém Saptar, if you’re still reading, I’d appreciate it if you’d leave a comment to that effect. Or email me.

  256. Aratina Cage says

    @Xanthë
    I’m in an awfully sour mood suddenly after, among other things, finding out that the slimepit is furiously attacking Greta Christina over her buying a pair of shoes and daring to share it with us! But thanks to Spokesgay and Chris (PZ II) and others on Twitter, I think I was able to vent enough to keep my discussion about ‘Tis very tame and brief after lots of deleting. I’m more or less where carlie is at now with ‘Tis. Plus, it’s kind of creepy that he thinks he can play us like this.

    I’d assumed the [New_Nym] mask was evidence of him wanting to dissociate himself from his past dishonesty and wished to believe he’d turned over a new leaf

    We also should recall his brother posted from the same ip as ‘Tis in at least one thread as was publicly stated at the time by ‘Tis Himself himself (he said they were sharing a terminal); there is a good chance that was ‘Tis all along, too. It might be simply that ‘Tis thought he could get away with morphing into Rodney Nelson but wasn’t as smart at getting away with it as he thought he was.

  257. John Morales says

    So, I think the American English use of ‘ass’ for ‘arse’ enfeebles their language and renders it inferior in that respect.

  258. Owlmirror says

    So, I think the American English use of ‘ass’ for ‘arse’ enfeebles their language and renders it inferior in that respect.

    There are things I cannot give a rat’s onager about.

    What a rat might be doing with an onager, I don’t know for sure.

    Maybe laying seige to Fort Inbrarse?

  259. Owlmirror says

    Thoughts that came to me after I posted #332:

    Owlmirror for Observers (Obscure SF ref)

    Owlmirror Crack’d from Side to Side (obscure lit ref)

  260. Rawnaeris, FREEZE PEACHES says

    Owlmirror, I recognize your obscure lit reference and both of it’s implications. :-D

  261. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Ranch dressing is the annoying loud stupid cousin of real food.

    Ah, that explains why the Pullet Patrol™ likes it on grog soaked corn…

  262. keresthanatos says

    You poor deluded subject of the Crown, over here in Merica we do not speek English, mon, we speek Anglish…..

  263. keresthanatos says

    American English should be considered almost a separate language descended from Continental English. We are a nation of poor grammar, lazy syntax, and abysmal spelling in our written and oral communications.

  264. Ing:Intellectual Terrorist "Starting Tonight, People will Whine" says

    I’d assumed the [New_Nym] mask was evidence of him wanting to dissociate himself from his past dishonesty and wished to believe he’d turned over a new leaf

    You assumed that a further use of dishonesty is an attempt to be rid of habitual dishonesty?

  265. says

    The universe continues to surprise me. Who would have thought that I would finally lose my patience with MRAs on Cuttlefish’s blog rather than here? I can’t fucking handle one more fucking person who just doesn’t understand shit. I cannot. I just fucking cannot. It makes me too angry, and I am fucking tired of being angry all the damn time. I just want to be happy. I just want to forget for for five seconds that the world is a fucking shitty place to be. I know that forgetting about it won’t make anything better or make it go away, but I just fucking can’t anymore. So I am just going to watch Dr. Who and read books and look at stupid pictures on the internet and cuddle with the boyfriend and fucking give up on all the fucking assholes of the world.
    Fuck it all, I’m done.

  266. strange gods before me ॐ says

    blogofmyself,

    I take breaks. I recommend them, too. You’re entitled to one.

  267. strange gods before me ॐ says

    poor grammar, lazy syntax, and abysmal spelling in our written and oral communications.

    D: ain’t no such thing.

    P: ain’t no nation what i’n’t.

    +++++
    John, arse doesn’t sound right in the General American accent. I don’t think I could pronounce arse with a triphthong (IPA: æjəs) so I want nothing to do with it.

  268. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Should be an ‘Also, I don’t think …’. I’m aware that triphthong isn’t General American. I switch.

  269. says

    Got to take Breaks!

    No srsly, what strange gods said. Reading and commenting in this environment can be quite the strain on ones faculties, and it’s not that we’re working for income here. So breaks are good, and necessary.

  270. says

    {having managed to procure a laptop (even if only a mac):}

    @ SGBM

    arse

    Try saying “ars technica” out loud.

    OK, so that didn’t go too well. Let’s try something else.

    Say: “Air”

    Good…. now say “Hair”

    Excellent! Excellent! Now say: “Lair”

    Yay! This is going swimmingly.

    Now say all three together out loud.

    There you go. Now you can speak British!

    / Henry Higgins

  271. Owlmirror says

    Put not your faith in tardigrades,
    for they are subtle, and quick to
    give you a Hungarian phrase-book
    that will get you arrested for uttering obscenity.

  272. says

    I went out for supper with a colleague here in Qingdao. We caught a taxi to the middle-of-nowhere to eat at a “famous” rural restaurant. Strangely, we were the only ones there. And the owner’s family drew up their chairs and stared at me throughout our meal. The food consisted of assorted body parts of a cow that had likely been dynamited.

    As you can imagine, it is fairly easy to catch a taxi in central Qingdao. It is markedly harder to catch one back from the middle-of-nowhere. After scrunching through the snow and ice for about an hour, we finally got picked up, by complete fluke, by a rare taxi. Luckily we did not freeze to death.

    Lucky also, there is a large, hot bath in my room and an ice cold Tsingtaos in the fridge.

    Pheeuw!

  273. chigau (無味ない) says

    theophontes 第二个左爪子
    Where is the remote control to the lolcannon?
    Where is A. R?

  274. says

    @ chigau

    No worries. I was about to head off to bed, but lost my supper to the toilet bowl. I think I’ve thrown up pretty much the whole cow, but perhaps its best if I sit up a little while to ensure I am really feeling better.

  275. chigau (無味ない) says

    theophontes
    oh dear.
    Well, it’s probably good that you detoxified sooner rather than later.
    Was it the residual dynamite or the near freezing to death?

  276. says

    monitors: banned troll here.

    How can this fine gent be banned here? Russell Blackford recommends him, and does interviews with him. Surely that has to count for something.

  277. Nepenthe says

    Strange Gods, seeing that post, I have to wonder if some of these folk have alien hand syndrome and are simply unaware of what their body parts are doing while they’re watching teevee. No one could really write that sort of thing down and be aware of it, right?

  278. says

    @ rorschach

    That stuff is surprisingly drinkable.

    Yeah, I’m at the airport now. There is a whole fridge full of free beers in the waiting area…. but I am still too sick to drink them.

    :'(

  279. John Morales says

    theophontes,

    There is a whole fridge full of free beers in the waiting area…. but I am still too sick to drink them.

    Is there free water?

  280. says

    The pickings are miserly compared to Shenzhen, but yes, free water, tea, coffee, cold drinks, snacks, massage chairs (! … wow, didn’t notice those before… I am off. Byeeee)

  281. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Thanks, Janine.

    Nepenthe, good people with an unfortunate case of alien hand syndrome would apologize when it’s pointed out to them that they’ve done something antisocial.

  282. says

    SG:

    monitors: banned troll here.

    I know I’ll probably never get an answer, but since I’m the only “Cain” about these parts, I’d sure as hell like to know what the fuck that broken crayon is talking about.

  283. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Another strange trip, and now dead horse flogging.

    michaeld mentioned having been into libertarianism at one time. I thought about saying “don’t feel too bad, it probably helped you learn how to talk them out of it.” Ultimately I didn’t say it, because I don’t see any evidence that michaeld does feel bad about it, and it’s kinda off topic.

    Then I got to thinking about how many libertarians we’ve helped become ex-libertarians. Besides the best-known case, I think we had some positive influence on both speedwell and badgersdaughter.* I wanted to confirm that they are ex-libertarians. They are, so I think I’m remembering right. (Though I figure they both had other reasons in addition to Pharyngula.)

    *and one other whose nym escapes me right now.

    In “libertarianism defined”, where badgersdaughter talks about being an ex-libertarian, I happened upon a suspicious sentence from ‘Tis Himself: “AIG sold credit default swaps (CDSs) on collateralized debt obligations (CDOs) which had by the time of receipt declined in value by as much as 33% and which there was a reasonable expectation they would decline.”

    I googled it. Nothing obvious, but he reuses it on “They Fucking Hate You” at Blue Collar Atheist / A Citizen of Earth.

    Plagiarism games!

    I’ll go first.

    Comment 11 is copied from “What Caused the Financial Crisis?” by Bill Thomas, Keith Hennessey and Douglas Holtz-Eakin in the Wall Street Journal.

    But that’s just one find! There’s more, I promise; that was a rich thread for plagiarism.

  284. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    SGBM:

    *and one other whose nym escapes me right now.

    Walton was a libertarian, wasn’t he?

    [Tis & Plagiarism]

    *sigh*
    Y’know, I rather liked Tis. He spoke well, and had a lot of good stuff to say. I’m disappointed.

  285. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    Can I plead “I haven’t had my tea yet this morning,” Your Honor?

  286. Ogvorbis: ບໍ່ມີຫຍັງຫັກ, ຕົກຕໍ່າ, ແລະມູນຄ່າ. says

    I’ve abused someone I’m supposed to be a friend of’s trust despite knowing it was wrong. It’s not irredeemable, but right now the guilt is making me cry and I’m just so sorry that I did what I did.

    This has been eating at me for a couple of nights, now. No, this is not aimed at Vilém Saptar but at me.

    I know that what my scoutmaster did was not my fault. I know that what his ‘friend’ from Flagstaff did was not my fault. I know that the photos are not my fault. But I keep running up against what I did to a little girl, that I enjoyed doing, is just so far off the end of the wrong scale as to be irredeemable. And add to that the insult that I cannot remember her name. The nightmares for the past few days have been bad.

    No, not considering suicide, just feeling really down, useless ,tired, and dead to emotion.

    Sorry. I needed to dump this somewhere.

  287. says

    @Strange gods before me
    It depends I generally wouldn’t apologize for it which I’ll try to explain. I mostly kept my opinions about it to myself at the time (I’ve been a lurker since fairly recently in a lot of venues). Mostly what caught me was the more social liberal aspects (to use their words). Although I might well have called myself libertarian or libertarian leaning at the time I was still a supported of taxes and social programs more then most libertarians are though I gave the free market more credit then I think it reasonably deserved. It didn’t affect my voting (which has been for the NDP a mostly socialist party), I can’t think of any ways my roughly year long infatuation lasted other then buying several season’s of bullshit. Since I really can’t think of much affect it had I suppose I don’t see much point in apologizing just for being duped. If I could think of a greater impact I really would feel bad about having spent time on it.

    Similarly with my much briefer (about a day and half) interest in MRA. I found it thought hmm this is interesting then saw the awful antifeminism and that was the end of that. I’m unfortunately not immune to dumb ideas and I like to think of MRA, libertarianism, and moon hoax (brought about by a documentary and ended by a debunking of a few claims) as personal cautionary tales that I’m not above believing in stupid things (I probably do right now unfortunately).

    ———————

    Speaking of dumb ideas, Ophelia Benson mentioned in her comments yesterday that thunderf00t had a new video up. Because of a nagging little voice in my head I watched it and replied.
    If anyone is morbidly curious and as forewarned last night in the lounge here is a link. http://haphazardhermit.blogspot.ca/2013/01/feminism-poisons-atheism-part-2-response.html

    While I’d like the think I make some interesting points thunderf00t does not. It was not a terribly interesting video, there were no really new arguments or ideas trolls on this site haven’t really raised before. If you don’t want to read it I don’t really don’t blame you ie feel free to ignore this. I’m sorry if my linking it here bothers anyone and I’m more then willing to not post any links in the future just let me know, I’d understand.

  288. says

    Michaeld:

    Similarly with my much briefer (about a day and half) interest in MRA. I found it thought hmm this is interesting then saw the awful antifeminism and that was the end of that.

    You retain the tendency to handwave sexism, however, and come up with “well, X (women or woman) does this, so…fairness.

  289. vaiyt says

    @365:

    Throw out the damn onions, they’re gross.

    *hugs onions* Bad person didn’t mean to say that, my pretties, don’t cry…

  290. says

    @caine

    mew? I admit I’m not perfect, and where I’ve done that I really shouldn’t have. Can you point it out to me if you remember where I’ve done it or if not (it can be hard to find things) if I do it in the future whack me for it and point it out. I don’t want to be doing that.

  291. says

    Probably my part of the argument with voths on the why do you despise feminism thread?

    That was not my best performance mostly a fuck up on my part from the get go. When I first responded I only saw noticed the one post by him not the previous ones or the replies. I gave more ground on his points then I really should have because I didn’t see them as particularly relevant to the overall point and I didn’t notice some of the work that had come before until embarssingly late in my arguement. After making a post to B who came later I went to bed and when I looked at the previous arguments I thought I’d mostly fucked it all up. Its part of why aside from the odd minor comment I’ve mostly stayed out of it since as I don’t think I’m very good at arguing the points being brought up and want to just read the replies. I’m sorry I really fucked that one up v.v

  292. says

    Michaeld, yes, your posts on feminism thread were an example, but so were several of your posts during the discussion of B5 and Voyager last night. It was particularly noticeable in the Voyager comments, because you simply laughed off the toxic masculinity ascribed to Paris and used the “Well, Janeway does X!” instead.

    You also said you joked with a GF about the Susan/Talia “relationship”, which got on my nerves a bit. I’m sure it’s nice to have such a thing be a laughing matter, but when you’re rarely represented on television to begin with and when you are, those representations are shit, it sends a message. A bad one.

  293. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Esteleth,

    The fourth ex-libertarian I was thinking of was the one I originally wrote this bit for. He (I think I recall this commenter was a he) thought we were hostile to libertarians because we didn’t know what they stood for. We played a game where if I could predict his views on a variety of political issues, he would STFU in that thread, otherwise I would. He reckoned I got 75% so he shut up. A pleasant surprise: a couple months later he popped up again to say he’d been on the verge of giving up on libertarianism back then, and he had just needed to talk it out with some of the horde, and he considered himself a liberal now.

    +++++
    Ogvorbis,

    Sorry. I needed to dump this somewhere.

    That’s fine.

    +++++
    michaeld,

    It depends I generally wouldn’t apologize for it which I’ll try to explain. I mostly kept my opinions about it to myself at the time … It didn’t affect my voting … Since I really can’t think of much affect it had I suppose I don’t see much point in apologizing just for being duped.

    Aye, I didn’t think you ought to; anyway though those are good reasons not to.

    I was pretty tired, but what I wanted to communicate was that I initially read your comment about libertarianism as confessio et paenitentia, but then I realized this was probably my misreading. As you’ve confirmed. Why I thought I should bring up my “don’t feel too bad” thoughts, uh, well, I was tired, lacked some higher executive functions. Rambling.

    http://haphazardhermit.blogspot.ca/2013/01/feminism-poisons-atheism-part-2-response.html … I’m sorry if my linking it here bothers anyone and I’m more then willing to not post any links in the future just let me know, I’d understand.

    I’ve seen only appreciation from some and indifference from others. If it’s a thing you like doing, I suggest you shouldn’t second-guess yourself about it.

    +++++
    Hmm. How do I get this jukebox to play more Antiochus Epiphanes?

  294. Esteleth, Ultra-PC Feminist Harpy Out To Destroy Secularism says

    Ah, okay.

    Side note: today, I put on my “confused monkey says Funny, you don’t look intelligently designed!” shirt. I feel pretty.

  295. says

    Strange Gods Before Me
    No worries,

    ” If it’s a thing you like doing, I suggest you shouldn’t second-guess yourself about it.”

    I’m just neurotic like that >.<

  296. David Marjanović says

    today, I put on my “confused monkey says Funny, you don’t look intelligently designed!” shirt. I feel pretty.

    :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

  297. joey says

    I was reading the “Atheism and the real search for meaning” thread and it got me wondering. Are atheists allowed to believe in the metaphysical (and still be regarded as atheists)? For example, you may consider yourself, in PZ’s words, “more than ambulatory arrangements of carbon compounds”. In other words, you believe in a metaphysical you, since you believe you are more than merely the sum of your physical parts. Or…you think that any metaphysical identity/individuality you may possess is simply an illusion, much like the illusion of free will.

    Technically “dictionary atheists” are allowed to believe in anything as long as it isn’t god/gods. But do you think atheism must necessarily include the disbelief in anything metaphysical (or anything that cannot be scientifically observed)?

    (disclaimer: I’m not an atheist)

  298. strange gods before me ॐ says

    For example, you may consider yourself, in PZ’s words, “more than ambulatory arrangements of carbon compounds”. In other words, you believe in a metaphysical you

    Bad interpretation. I’m not fond of phrasings like PZ’s, but it needn’t refer to anything other than emergent properties, which are not non-physical. The rest of your paragraph gets stupid fast, since your presmise is based on abusing language.

    But to answer your question: I know an atheist who seems to believe in magick as something supernatural, more than psychodrama. I regard this person as a stupid, gullible, shitty atheist. I mean I think they are bad at being an atheist, and their atheism is incomplete and badly executed. To be good at being an atheist, a person should follow the implications where they lead, and therefore dispose of all supernaturalism.

    PS: you asked a few months ago whether you are still confined to Thunderdome. The answer is now explicitly yes.

  299. dysomniak, darwinian socialist says

    I know an atheist who seems to believe in magick as something supernatural, more than psychodrama.

    Utterly tangential (I have zero interest in engaging with gooey’s latest nonsense) but the idea of “magick” as psychodrama has long been of interest to me. While I no longer engage in anything of the sort myself I did have a rather keen interest in the occult as a teenager (along with quite a lot of idiotic conspiracy theories and other nonsense), with a particular attraction to things like “chaos magick” and LaVeyan satanism – both of which tend to be somewhat agnostic as to whether a practitioner’s “will work” has any material effect outside of the “magician’s” mind. More recently I’ve seen similar attitudes expressed by quite a few atheist/agnostic “Buddhists” (some of whom aren’t even Sam Harris).

    The real world case I always think of first is Alan Moore’s “worship” of Glycon which he talks about here. Since I’m not sure how to wrap this comment up I’ll just leave this quote from Bokonon:

    Live by the foma that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy.

    (Full disclosure, I have a Sacred Chao tattoo I’m I’m not ashamed.)

  300. dysomniak, darwinian socialist says

    Also, I put an abbr tag in there that ended up invisible. While it was intended to aid those poor souls who have never read Vonnegut, in the spirit of Discord I will leave it up to the reader to find.

  301. joey says

    strange gods:

    Bad interpretation. I’m not fond of phrasings like PZ’s, but it needn’t refer to anything other than emergent properties, which are not non-physical.

    In that wiki article that you linked, what do you think of Mark A. Bedau’s critique of strong emergence, saying that it’s “uncomfortably like magic”? I have to agree that the notion of strong emergence does seem rather mystical, bordering on supernatural.

    PS: you asked a few months ago whether you are still confined to Thunderdome. The answer is now explicitly yes.

    Yes, I’m aware of my official confinement, which is why I’m posting here as opposed to that thread.

  302. strange gods before me ॐ says

    dysomniak,

    “chaos magick” and LaVeyan satanism – both of which tend to be somewhat agnostic as to whether a practitioner’s “will work” has any material effect outside of the “magician’s” mind.

    Which is sad. Maybe worse than agnostic — I don’t have a copy of The Satanic Witch on hand to check, but my last impression of that book was that he went beyond a Crowleyan cultivation of ambiguity, and basically composed another grimoire of spooky action at a distance.

    Well, it’s an old impression and maybe my memory is wrong. But I think of LaVey a dumbshit compared to Crowley, and I have no strong expectation that he wouldn’t preach supernaturalism.

    The atheist I mentioned in 454 is a LaVeyan, and it is that religion’s unequivocal doctrine of atheism, essentially a dogma for them in later decades, which makes me accept the claim “I am an atheist” without doubt,

    while the religion’s ambiguity about magick, along with certain other books I’ve seen on the bookshelf, and bizarre statements about the supernatural, makes me think this person really believes in magick or at least takes the possibility seriously.

    +++++
    joey,

    hat do you think of Mark A. Bedau’s critique of strong emergence, saying that it’s “uncomfortably like magic”?

    I haven’t read all he’s said about it, but I expect I agree with him. What he’s saying there sounds like something I’ve tried to articulate before, and every time I’ve read someone talking about strong emergence I’ve thought that they’re peddling bullshit.

    It is weak emergence which obviously exists, and is sufficient for calling a person “more than ambulatory arrangements of carbon compounds”.

  303. dysomniak, darwinian socialist says

    I don’t have any LaVey around to check myself, but my old impression (mostly based on The Satanic Bible) was that he (at times) specifically disclaimed any “supernatural” effects, or at the very least downplayed the possibly in favor of using ritual as a means to create internal change. But again, I don’t have the books to check and I have no real investment in defending the position. Occultism is currently buried in my intellectual compost heap beneath economic libertarianism, metaphysical libertarianism, and omnivore-ism.

    Sorry for the tangent, your use of “psychodrama” just got me thinking.

  304. cm's changeable moniker says

    (I should say that Slackers, and Clercks, are two awesome films, and that the fact that everytime I type oanything about them, it’s like the rooftop hoakey scene in the the latter (see; more mispelling)). I really do hate this laptop.

  305. joey says

    strange gods:

    It is weak emergence which obviously exists and is sufficient for calling a person “more than ambulatory arrangements of carbon compounds”.

    I don’t see how this is sufficient at all. Weak emergence is simply an abstraction of lower-level interactions. As wiki put it, “Emergence, in this case, is merely part of the language, or model that is needed to describe a system’s behaviour.” For example, the complex symmetry of a snowflake is an emergent property of frozen water. Does that mean snowflakes are more than ambulatory arrangement of water molecules?

    If you want something a type of emergence that asserts the whole is greater than sum of its parts, then that’s where the distinction of strong emergence comes in. But the mystical nature of such a notion simply can’t be avoided.

  306. Nepenthe says

    Does that mean snowflakes are more than ambulatory arrangement of water molecules?

    No. Snowflakes* don’t walk.

    *Not the H2O variety, anyway. Special Snowflakes™ often walk.

  307. Dhorvath, OM says

    It’s like saying that micro evolution is acceptable, but macro is not. If emergence happens, then it happens. More complex systems can breed more unintuitive results.

  308. strange gods before me ॐ says

    dysomniak,

    I don’t have any LaVey around to check myself, but my old impression (mostly based on The Satanic Bible) was that he (at times) specifically disclaimed any “supernatural” effects

    See, I would have said the same thing if I had not read The Satanic Witch. My (possibly mistaken, old) impression was that the later book is really at odds with the earlier.

    I’ll go ahead and mention that I think there’s some sexism in this, as Witch was marketed specifically to women, and so it appears to me that he thought women Satanists were particularly in the market for woo.

    Sorry for the tangent

    Open thread!

    +++++
    cm,

    sgbm, elsewhere, thank you.

    It’s what I do.

    +++++
    joey,

    I don’t see how this is sufficient at all.

    Does the ambulatory arrangements of carbon compounds form grey hair, brown hair, no hair? It might, it might not. Saying that it’s an ambulatory arrangements of carbon compounds doesn’t tell us very much. When molecules are arranged in a certain way, we can say these are some molecules and also a nose. Another way, these are some molecules and also a finger.

    Does that mean snowflakes are more than [an] arrangement of water molecules?

    Yes, they are an arrangement of water molecules and they are snowflakes. They are both things. Both things is more than one thing.

    If you want something a type of emergence that asserts the whole is greater than sum of its parts,

    Well, I don’t know if I do. That’s another of those phrasings I’m not fond of. But it wouldn’t require strong emergence.

    The sum of the parts of a snowflake is a particular mass. The snowflakeness of it depends also on the arrangement of those parts.

    You’re probably making this argument ultimately for the glory of God, so if you could skip to the end sooner, I’d appreciate it.

  309. says

    [reality, emergence, magick]

    Our interactions with hard reality are not all that define us. Where we are going wrong (IMO) is not adressing that other part to which our minds may turn that lies outside of our nuts and bolts.

    Recently I sat down to a breakfast of porridge with my grandfather. I cannot remember what we discussed, but I woke up feeling very happy to have met with him again. He has been dead these last 25 years. Of course I realise this was all a dream. I know too that there is nothing metaphysical about it at all. Just somewhere in my mind, in my sleep, a very distant memory of someone dear to me was triggered and once again I could feel to be in that person’s presence. I feel now as if I last saw him only a week. To me this is a wonderful thing.

    Now how to adress such experiences (which may seem as real as waking reality). I cannot pooh-pooh the experience but try to encompass it in my rational understanding of the world. However, in my memory the ability to differentiate between what was real, and what not, starts to blur. My misremembering of real events is not the memory of real events, yet I find – if I am honest – that I cannot always say which is which.

    To resolve this I must stitch these fragments all together into a coherent tale. This allows me a smooth sense of identity at the loss of reflecting reality past.

    Now consider a creative mind like Moore’s. He lives and breathes a fantasy world within his thoughts. The tale he generates will be riddled with fantasy. He can gain coherency through generating consistancies in his fabrication, even to the extent of worshipping Glycon, wearing “magical” rings and very long tresses. He literally inhabits his tale.

    And what a wonderfull story it has been.

  310. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Our interactions with hard reality are not all that define us.

    I’m pretty sure they are, since everything you listed in 469 is part of “hard reality”.

    There is no “soft reality” which is distinct from “hard reality”, so we might as well collapse both of those into “reality”.

    Your dream happened in this very same reality, since there is no “realm of dreams” distinct from reality.

    So,

    Where we are going wrong (IMO)

    Who’s going wrong in this way? Not you, not me, not dysomniak.

    I dunno, theophontes — if you can find someone saying “you should not find that dream personally meaningful” then I think you’d be justified in leveling that charge against them. But as it stands, I wonder if you’re not just finding an elaborate way to complain that not everybody is quite as interested in Snake as you are. ;)

  311. consciousness razor says

    I was reading the “Atheism and the real search for meaning” thread and it got me wondering. Are atheists allowed to believe in the metaphysical (and still be regarded as atheists)?

    What do you think “metaphysical” means?

    To answer your question, yes, I believe in the existence of a branch of philosophy. In fact, I believe all branches of philosophy exist. I know, that’s really astonishing. *eyeroll*

    For example, you may consider yourself, in PZ’s words, “more than ambulatory arrangements of carbon compounds”. In other words, you believe in a metaphysical you, since you believe you are more than merely the sum of your physical parts.

    That’s definitely the wrong use of the word. It isn’t synonymous with “emergent,” “gestalt,” or anything of the sort. (It also doesn’t mean “supernatural.”) I could believe in a physical thing (even completely non-emergentist one if I were a certain kind of reductionist) which I call “me,” and that would be a metaphysical claim about a physical thing. That physical thing is a metaphysical thing, because anything which exists is a “metaphysical thing.”

  312. strange gods before me ॐ says

    Even dumbshit lying liars like WMDKitty, who asserts that “Look at that stupid faggot…what a butthurt” is not a slur, are invited.

  313. says

    SG:

    If anyone wants to go over homophobia and the term “butthurt” again, I will field questions yet again. Not because I want to, or ought to have to. It’s been done before.

    For what it’s worth, I put in my 2 cents. I would have done it here, except I wasn’t sure it would be seen. I won’t post anymore about it in that thread, though.

  314. strange gods before me ॐ says

    I appreciate the 2 cents. As you can see, my patience is exhausted for the moment.

  315. says

    I’m pretty sure they are, since everything you listed in 469 is part of “hard reality”.

    I was a little wary of posting the first sentence as I did. (I can imagine a well dressed double-pape wagging a finger at me.) This because I do understand what you mean. Perhaps I am just being pragmatic in saying we must deal as best we can with what we are dealt. We see the stage and the props, the atoms and the emergent phenomenon. And yet still we say: “The hell with it, I shall play my part in this anyway.” A little suspension of that underlying reality, immersing ourselves in the illusion that is thrown up, is also part of the domain in which we frolic.

    there is no “realm of dreams” distinct from reality

    I agree with you absolutely. I trust this is not the impression I have created.

    Where we are going wrong

    OK, I stated that too harshly. I should rather say “What we should critically consider…”, or somesuch.

    But as it stands, I wonder if you’re not just finding an elaborate way to complain that not everybody is quite as interested in Snake as you are. ;)

    Yes, I confess to being fascinated in Snake and Her Family. And in Alan Moore too. Perhaps I am just suggesting that it is good to look openly and squarely at dream and myth and realise we are actually not in any way at odds with them. I would even go so far as to say they are very necessary ways, perhaps critical ways, in which we can achieve a working and coherent way to navigate our way through our lives. I do not doubt for a moment that this is indeed underlain by a very scientific and rational reality. We are deeply, in our human natures, bound up between the two. The criticism that can be levelled against religion (at least the Abrahamic religions) is that it has mistaken its own storytelling for reality. The trouble with a purely rational mindset is that it loses out on so much.

    But how can I preach to a double pape, who can one moment plumb the depths of the internet in one’s and zero’s and then raise the dust in a drunken dance the next‽

  316. says

    SG:

    As you can see, my patience is exhausted for the moment.

    Yes. I think that’s understandable. It’s exhausting having to go through the same shit over and over, especially when someone is being damned stubborn and refusing to grok the point.

    I don’t know why on earth I thought that butthurt was over. I guess I haven’t seen it used in quite a long time and that would be primarily thanks to you. So, thank you.

  317. John Morales says

    As I see it, there are multiple levels at which one can meaningfully and usefully describe reality; emergent entities are those that operate on more than one level.

    (There’s no magic there)

  318. strange gods before me ॐ says

    A little suspension of that underlying reality, immersing ourselves in the illusion that is thrown up, is also part of the domain in which we frolic.

    *puts on Pope hat*

    I think I live without illusions. I play; this is no illusion.

    I trust this is not the impression I have created.

    Nah, I was just exhausting possibilities for the sake of rhetoric.

    The trouble with a purely rational mindset is that it loses out on so much.

    *puts on second Pope hat, matryoshka style* (This is how you know I am very, very serious. Like using your full name: “theophontes middlename tardigrade!”)

    Here is your false dichotomy. It is not inherently irrational to play, or to hope, or to immerse one’s self in dream and myth. Perhaps there are irrational ways to do these things. But there are rational ways as well:

    Perhaps I am just suggesting that it is good to look openly and squarely at dream and myth and realise we are actually not in any way at odds with them.

    Agreed.

    Ahem: it would be irrational not to.

  319. says

    I’m not seeing it. I may very well not be seeing it because I’m looking right at it. At this point, I don’t even care — I just want things to go back to normal, non-whiny, non-angry… you know? I don’t grok this whole “butthurt = slur” thing, but I also don’t like fighting, and am feeling rather uncomfortable with the level of sheer animosity and rage that one word seems to have provoked.

    IN THE INTERESTS OF PEACE, QUIET, AND EVERYONE GETTING ALONG (OR AT LEAST NOT STRANGLING EACH OTHER), I WILL DO MY VERY BEST TO NOT USE THE TERM “BUTTHURT”.

    That’s all.

  320. John Morales says

    ॐ, you mean consciously adopting an unjustifiable narrative that’s appealing?

  321. strange gods before me ॐ says

    WMDKitty, liar,

    I’m not seeing it.

    The thread containing this comment, containing the unambiguous use of the term as a homophobic slur, was already pointed out to you. That is what you claimed you wanted, when you said ‘SHOW ME EVEN ONE PERSON USING “BUTTHURT” AS A SLUR AND I WILL STOP USING IT.’

    Therefore you lied when you claimed “I have read the threads I’ve been directed to — it’s not used as a slur there, either.” You either lied about reading the threads at all, or you lied about the content that you found there.

    I just want things to go back to normal, non-whiny, non-angry… you know?

    Go fuck yourself, you stupid entitled shithead.

    I’m justified in being angry with you, and it’s homophobic for you to dismiss all three citations of gay men explaining objections to the term as simply “whining”.

    Things would have stayed “normal” in the first place if you had not acted like an entitled shit with your handwaving away of requests for interpersonal consideration: ‘I will NOT stop using “butthurt” unless and until it is conclusively proven to be a slur.’

    Things will go back to “normal” when you stop making excuses and stop insulting people simply for objecting to the term.

    Every time you try to get in a last word that does not consist of an unambiguous apology, I am going to point out what a stupid asshole you’ve been about this.

    I don’t grok this whole “butthurt = slur” thing, but I also don’t like fighting

    Then quit with your implicitly homophobic dismissals of clearly stated arguments from gay men as mere “whining”.

    and am feeling rather uncomfortable with the level of sheer animosity and rage that one word seems to have provoked.

    Bullshit! There wasn’t any animosity until you callously dismissed gay men’s feelings on the matter. You damned well could have argued about the substance without being an entitled asshole. Others have, and they were treated calmly. You initially did, and you were treated calmly while you did.

    IN THE INTERESTS OF PEACE, QUIET, AND EVERYONE GETTING ALONG

    You won’t get that yet, while you keep dismissing every argument as “whining”. Shut the fuck up and stop digging.

  322. strange gods before me ॐ says

    John, is “consciously adopting an unjustifiable narrative that’s appealing” a reference to “the idiosyncratic theophontish meaning”?

  323. strange gods before me ॐ says

    John, I’m not sure that’s even what he means by it. I think he’s learned a stupidly limited scope of what it would mean to be “purely rational”, as though it would mean doing without play or storytelling, perhaps even emotion.

    Trolls take note: that would be the actual meaning of Straw Vulcan.

  324. Nick Gotts (formerly KG) says

    If you want something a type of emergence that asserts the whole is greater than sum of its parts, then that’s where the distinction of strong emergence comes in. But the mystical nature of such a notion simply can’t be avoided. – joey

    Yes, it can, but emergence is undoubtedly a tricky concept. I spent some months reading up on it and thinking about it a decade or so ago, and still have an uncompleted review in the form of a LaTex file that I intend to do something with sometime. I recommend Sunny Auyang’s 1998 Foundations of Complex-System Theories for a treatment close to the view I arrived at, but it’s not an easy read.

    Here’s the bit from SGBM';s link just before the Bedau quote:

    The usage of the notion “emergence” may generally be subdivided into two perspectives, that of “weak emergence” and “strong emergence”. Weak emergence describes new properties arising in systems as a result of the interactions at an elemental level. Emergence, in this case, is merely part of the language, or model that is needed to describe a system’s behaviour.

    But if, on the other hand, systems can have qualities not directly traceable to the system’s components, but rather to how those components interact, and one is willing to accept that a system supervenes on its components, then these new qualities are irreducible to the system’s constituent parts (Laughlin 2005). The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

    I disagree with this dichotomy. A gas has properties (temperature, pressure, transparency or opacity, colour, toxicity) that do not belong to its individual molecules (so in that sense the gas is more than the sum of its parts) – and this is not just a “part of our model”: such properties existed, and had effects on the rest of the world, before there were any human beings to have language or models. If you cool andor pressurise the gas enough, it will become a liquid, which will have some different properties – for example, immiscibility with some other liquids, capability of dissolving some gases and solids – as well as some of the same ones; cool it some more and it becomes solid, and will, for example, have a specific shape, produce a tone if another solid body hits it, have a certain resistance to bending or shattering, etc. Now in principle, if current science is right, all these properties can be accounted for in terms of the properties of the molecules concerned, notably their energy states, and the way they are arranged in space – but that doesn’t mean the properties of the whole are any less real, or simply part of our language or model – that would suggest that we could arbitrarily change that language or model and still capture the features of reality. The bit I’ve bolded indicates how it is that the same collection of parts can produce a whole – indeed, an indefinite variety of wholes – that are more than the sum of their parts: the “more” is accounted for by the arrangement of the parts in space.

    Here’s the Bedau quote from SGBM’s link:

    Although strong emergence is logically possible, it is uncomfortably like magic. How does an irreducible but supervenient downward causal power arise, since by definition it cannot be due to the aggregation of the micro-level potentialities? Such causal powers would be quite unlike anything within our scientific ken. This not only indicates how they will discomfort reasonable forms of materialism. Their mysteriousness will only heighten the traditional worry that emergence entails illegitimately getting something from nothing.

    I think (though I’d have to go to the original to be sure) that what Bedau is referring to here is the idea, prevalent in a defunct philosophical school called the “British emergentists” (C.H. Broad was a prominent member, and J.S. Mill is sometimes seen as its progenitor), who thought that when matter was arranged in certain ways, additional physical laws come into operation. IIRC, they thought this was how life and mentality worked. The school disappeared with the development of quantum mechanics. As Bedau says, it’s logically possible this should be the case – but it seems not to be. Even if it were, it’s not clear to me that it would be “mystical” or “magical”, both of which imply that mentality or intentionality is in some sense independent of the physical.

  325. consciousness razor says

    A little suspension of that underlying reality, immersing ourselves in the illusion that is thrown up, is also part of the domain in which we frolic.

    Well, as long as that underlying reality* won’t get expelled, I guess a suspension might give it time to learn why what it did was wrong; but it still seems a little harsh and counterproductive to me.

    *As opposed to that other reality, which has been behaving just fine, overlaying the underlying one seamlessly, as far as I can tell.

    P.S., You’ve thrown up illusions, as in vomited them? Surely, there’s some kind of doctor who can take a look at that.

  326. strange gods before me ॐ says

    If you’re insulting someone or trying to explain their behavior, it’s equivalent to insulting them or trying to explain their behavior by calling them a schizophrenic or manic-depressive or borderline.

    What I ask is that people not use mental health insults, and not try to explain bad behavior by reaching for unevidenced mental health diagnoses.

  327. strange gods before me ॐ says

    What I ask is that people not use mental health insults, and not try to explain bad behavior by reaching for unevidenced mental health diagnoses.

    If someone wants to say “I fucking love Pokemon, I’m a Pokemon maniac!”, whatevs, that is not what happened there.

    This puts Flashdance in a new light.

    That would be a bullshit strawman.

  328. strange gods before me ॐ says

    It’s like you had that link all ready no matter what anybody said, and upon receiving an answer, you couldn’t resist shooting off with what turned out to be a bullshit strawman, despite that the song does not use the term as an insult and does not try to explain bad behavior by reaching for an unevidenced mental health diagnosis.

  329. strange gods before me ॐ says

    I wouldn’t have responded as I did if I didn’t really think what I was saying. If you want to argue something in particular, how about you quote it.

  330. Nepenthe says

    Pertinent lyrics:

    They all say she’s crazy

    On the ice-filled line of sanity
    It’s a place most never see

    The scene depicts her dancing in an unorthodox and frenetic style. It’s possible that the lyrics are implying that she’s in a manic state.

  331. Nepenthe says

    That’s weird. 495 appeared after I posted 496 and I definitely saw a screen in which 496 came directly after 494. Anyone else having issues?

  332. strange gods before me ॐ says

    They all say she’s crazy

    Is the songwriter using this as an insult against her, i.e. in the songwriter’s voice? Or is the songwriter saying some other people call her this?

    On the ice-filled line of sanity
    It’s a place most never see

    Is the songwriter using this as an insult against her?

    Is the songwriter saying she engages in bad behavior, and explaining this by reaching for an unevidenced mental health diagnosis?

    The scene depicts her dancing in an unorthodox and frenetic style. It’s possible that the lyrics are implying that she’s in a manic state.

    Maybe so.

    But is the songwriter using this as an insult against her? Is the songwriter saying she engages in bad behavior, and explaining this by reaching for an unevidenced mental health diagnosis?

    Maybe it’s a song about dancing in a manic state. Can you quote me saying something that means such a song would necessarily be bad?

    +++++
    Now, for the sake of argument, let’s grant that your interpretation is correct, that by my stated standards, this is a bad song which is stigmatizing of mental illness and shouldn’t have been written.

    This is nevertheless very different from what happened in that thread, where an evil racist’s bad behavior was explained by reaching for unevidenced mental health diagnoses, and involuntary commitment and forced drugging was recommended for him. That is the thread I was objecting to — context is important, and I really don’t give a crap about this song except that it’s been used to divert attention from the original problem.