# Episode CCCLIV: But some of us still aren’t cool

The big problem with this nerd fantasy is that it’s so rarely true.

1. ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ says

drbunsen,

please do tell me, why do people get to complain about me but I’m not supposed to defend myself?

and why do people continue to complain on TET that talk to and from me on TET is annoying, when they can just as well take that complaint over to TZT?

2. ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ says

And all this after I say:

“Anyway, I have no interest in keeping Caine out of TET.

I’ve answered the current claims about me here. If I find a link to the thread where I did not tell ‘Tis Himself that he didn’t experience real bullying, I’ll link it here. Google isn’t turning it up.

I will respond to talk about me where it happens. If people would like to bring their talk about me over to TZT, that would be best for everyone.”

?

3. Nightjar
It wasn’t on the old site, it was here. And for some fucking reason I can’t find the TZt I thik exemplary of this…
I think that due to long histories people tend to get more easily upset and defensive when it’s SG who does it.
No benefit of doubt left.
Doesn’t mean he’s unilaterally the bad boy, it means that he’s bad for my mental health.

4. drbunsen, le savant fous says

#5. Ray Gricar

For 20 years, Ray Gricar was the district attorney of Centre County, Pennsylvania. On April 15, 2005, Gricar phoned his girlfriend and told her he was driving in the countryside and would be back soon.

He never returned.

A search ensued. Gricar’s credit cards and accounts were monitored, with no signs of activity. His laptop was retrieved from a nearby river, too damaged to recover any files.

At the time of his disappearance, Gricar was working on the Penn State sex abuse scandal. You know, that scandal that just broke last year. Gricar was working on it six years earlier.

Gricar had in 1998 mysteriously refused to press charges against the coach despite having more than enough evidence. In 2005, same thing.

In 2009, someone got around to searching Gricar’s home computer. Its search history showed that Gricar had made a whole lot of Web searches for things such as “how to wreck a hard drive,” “how to fry a hard drive” and “water damage to a notebook computer.”

edited for brevity

5. Nightjar says

Giliell,

It wasn’t on the old site, it was here.

Yes, I know. That’s why I didn’t see it, I stayed mostly there after the move.

And for some fucking reason I can’t find the TZt I thik exemplary of this…

Heh. I find it a lot more difficult to search for comments here than at the old site. It’s annoying.

I think that due to long histories people tend to get more easily upset and defensive when it’s SG who does it.

Maybe. This whole situation still irks me, though. And blaming him for Aquaria’s decision to leave is frankly ridiculous. That’s why I chimed in.

6. 'Tis Himself says

[Me]Plus I have not forgiven him for claiming that since the bullying I endured in school wasn’t because I was gay or accused of being gay then it wasn’t “real” bullying.

I most certainly did not claim that.

I’ve just wasted half an hour trying to find the exact comment but that’s how I remember it. Since my descent into senility* isn’t complete my memory is still pretty good. However because I can’t actually prove that you said it then I won’t bring it up again. However, the resentment remains. You’re an asshole and you’ll remain an asshole as far as I’m concerned.

*I’m old enough I get a senior citizen discount at the movies so I can use the word senility. If you think that’s disparaging to old folks then you can fuck yourself.

7. Heh. I find it a lot more difficult to search for comments here than at the old site. It’s annoying.

I ran a simply nym search on all TZTs and could find a total of 2 comments by me, which is strange, because
A) it shows that the search was working
B) I know that although I don’t post there much it was way more than that brief exchange with Rorschach

+++++
What the hell was that?
I just got a surprise visit from my mum, bringing us cake.
Yeah, she’s dry at the moment and taking good care of all of us. That’s kind of more unsetteling than her not getting herself under the shower.

8. 'Tis Himself says

Sorry, in my post #4 the comment “I most certainly did not claim that.” should be attributed to SG.

9. Nightjar says

Giliell, that is strange. I wonder if it has something to do with there being several comment pages for each TZT?

10. Nightjar

Giliell, that is strange. I wonder if it has something to do with there being several comment pages for each TZT?

I haz stupid
That’s probably the reason. Another conspiracy theory gone out of the window :)

11. 'Tis Himself says

And blaming him for Aquaria’s decision to leave is frankly ridiculous.

Sure, just because SG hounded Aquaria relentlessly is no reason to blame him for her leaving.

SG has appointed himself the Tone Nanny of Pharygnula. Transgress his sense of decorum and he’ll follow you from thread to thread, denouncing you for not living up to his standards of behavior. His badgering of Aquaria is Exhibit A.

12. Transgress his sense of decorum and he’ll follow you from thread to thread, denouncing you for not living up to his standards of behavior.

I’m sorry, but how exactly is this behavior different than what anyone else would do with someone who sprinkled (for example) “cunt” regularly into their language here?

Aquaria had the choice to stop using bigoted language or leave. She left. No one forced her to, no more than we’ve forced Heddle to flounce.

13. says

This is getting annoying. It seems that every time there’s a group of regulars getting exasperated and giving up on this place, there’s ixchel sitting placidly in the middle of it. I don’t know and I don’t care about the details of what’s going on: I’m just doing the math, and seeing that ixchel is being an anti-catalyst, quenching the range of interactions I like to see going on.

Don’t argue, don’t try to rationalize. Ixchel, just try to do some serious introspection here and change whatever the hell you’re doing. Because I’m just going to look at the numbers and if you’re driving away more good people than you can possibly compensate for, I’ll make some harsh decisions based on cost/benefit ratios here.

14. Nightjar says

Sure, just because SG hounded Aquaria relentlessly is no reason to blame him for her leaving.

Because the only alternatives were leaving or being constantly told to stop using an ableist slur? Because stopping using that word was somehow not an option or too much to ask?

SG has appointed himself the Tone Nanny of Pharygnula.

15. consciousness razor says

SG has appointed himself the Tone Nanny of Pharygnula. Transgress his sense of decorum

Fuck, I never realized the problem with calling people “retards” was a matter of tone or decorum. I suppose you can learn something from bullshitting assholes.

16. Walton says

“Retard” and “-tard” are certainly ableist terms, and contribute to the stigma directed against people with mental disabilities. I’m less sure about “stupid”, but I’ll try not to use it in future, anyway.

17. consciousness razor says

I don’t know and I don’t care about the details of what’s going on

That’s strange. What is there to be annoyed about if you don’t what’s happening and don’t care about it?

18. says

It’s not strange at all. This is my party; all I care about is that lots of intelligent people are having a good time. When I see some guy wandering about and then other people get their coat and leave, I want it to stop.

19. It seems that every time there’s a group of regulars getting exasperated and giving up on this place, there’s ixchel sitting placidly in the middle of it.

le wut. no one is “giving up on this place”

Ixchel, just try to do some serious introspection here and change whatever the hell you’re doing.

stop existing? nothing he does is different than what the rest of us do. people get pissy because it’s him, not because of what he’s doing.

this is fucked up.

I’ll make some harsh decisions based on cost/benefit ratios here.

then do please take into accounting that if you ban him from Pharyngula for others hating on him, I will leave here permanently as well, because then Pharyngula will become just another place that punishes people for defending themselves.

20. says

Everyone here defends themselves. Only ixchel seems to do it in a way that makes people give up in disgust.

21. Walton says

SG has appointed himself the Tone Nanny of Pharygnula. Transgress his sense of decorum and he’ll follow you from thread to thread, denouncing you for not living up to his standards of behavior.

I disagree. Calling people out for using ableist slurs is not a complaint about “tone” or “decorum”. It’s about ending the use of words which further stigmatize an already-marginalized group. “Retard” is objectionable in the same way that sexist, racist and homophobic slurs are objectionable. I don’t think we have any obligation to be tolerant of those words.

22. Only ixchel seems to do it in a way that makes people give up in disgust.

that’s because there are people who don’t like him personally, and because he is less likely to be cowed and intimidated into giving up when people attack him. So, again, it would be punishing him for defending himself instead of giving in to those who attack him.

I mean, shit, he’s the only one who followed the rule that these arguments were supposed to go to TZT; everyone else insisted on piling on in here instead. how’s that his fault, exactly?

23. consciousness razor says

It’s not strange at all. This is my party; all I care about is that lots of intelligent people are having a good time. When I see some guy wandering about and then other people get their coat and leave, I want it to stop.

If you want to claim ixchel is the one to blame when he calls out other people for using slurs like “retard,” go ahead. Or do you honestly not know or care about that, and just want more people* to have a good time at this party?

*Presumably those who don’t care much how the disabled or their loved ones are affected by that kind of slur.

24. consciousness razor says

I mean, shit, he’s the only one who followed the rule that these arguments were supposed to go to TZT; everyone else insisted on piling on in here instead. how’s that his fault, exactly?

I suppose PZ neither knows nor cares about that, so I doubt that will be factored into his cost/benefit analysis.

25. says

I repeat, I don’t care about the details, just the effect. There aren’t any people here who are easily cowed or intimidated, so this is no defense. Everyone who comments here is more aggressive than average, and is willing to push for what they think is right. I don’t even disagree with him about this “Christard” business.

But somehow he manages to be more than just assertive, and cross the line into nuisance. If he were driving away creationists and other idiots, he’d be a benefit, but when that behavior, whatever it is, is pissing off well regarded regulars, there’s something off, and like I say, he needs to think seriously about what he’s doing and fix it. I don’t need a poison pill hanging about.

26. Beatrice says

That’s not a dose, that’s an overdose.

27. he needs to think seriously about what he’s doing and fix it

thanks for that lovely bit of victim blaming.

28. Walton says

I agree with Jadehawk and consciousness razor.

29. says

He’s not a victim. He’s a pain in the ass.

30. He’s not a victim. He’s a pain in the ass.

not mutually exclusive categories

31. Tony •King of the Hellmouth• says

I think I’m going to take a break from here folks. This in fighting/disagreement/bickering turned me off the last time and I was *really* new back then. I don’t want to have to wade through page after page again just to find something interesting to read/respond to.
Take care all.

32. *sigh*

whatever. this is ridiculous. I’m gonna go be productive somewhere else

33. says

Nope. But I don’t see any victimhood here — he hasn’t been oppressed, he’s not been hurt by anyone. The fact that he pisses off some people ferociously is being noted, and he’s being asked to correct that…and he’s being asked rather more nicely than how he handles stuff he disagrees with.

34. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

thanks for that lovely bit of victim blaming.

Who’s the real victim? Those who harass people for PC correctness, or those who are on the receiving end of said harassment? SG needs to learn the difference between having his say (a few posts, say up to five total would do), and forcing someone to agree with him by shear harassment, which is a form of bullying. That is the difference between assertive and aggressive.

I’ve avoided threads where he has been active due to his aggressiveness.

35. Pteryxx says

point: just because multiple people “have a history with” SG, it does not follow that SG deserves MORE benefit of the doubt. He “has a history with” multiple people, too, and that doesn’t speak well to how much benefit of the doubt he deserves.

*it’s problematic to say “has a history WITH” when some of the histories are harassment situations of one person imposing themselves on another person who’s asking to be left alone. It’s not a relationship WITH another person when one party’s being coerced.

I also find it problematic that what SG calls self-defense consists of direct counter-accusations that other people, plural, are lying about him. How reasonable is it to accord more benefit of the doubt to him, singular, than to a long list of other regulars who somehow manage to call *each other* out without degenerating into frequent accusations of dishonesty? And who can and do agree to take breaks, ease off each others’ hot buttons, and accept responsibility for hurtful behavior?

I don’t think SG’s being singled out for special treatment. I think he’s behaving in a recognizably singular fashion.

36. consciousness razor says

I repeat, I don’t care about the details, just the effect.

What exactly do you think the effect is? Do you want people to have a “good time” at your “party,” or to not be comfortable using slurs?

Good. Thank you.

But somehow he manages to be more than just assertive, and cross the line into nuisance.

That’s something you couldn’t claim to know if you’re also claiming to not be paying attention to the details.

If he were driving away creationists and other idiots, he’d be a benefit, but when that behavior, whatever it is, is pissing off well regarded regulars,

I don’t regard people well when they refuse to stop spouting hateful bullshit and when they turn being corrected on it into a huge scene, regulars or creationists or whatever they may be.

I don’t need a poison pill hanging about.

If you do pay attention, you might notice a lot of other things you don’t need hanging about.

37. chigau (自分のサンドイッチを作ろう！) says

I think you should take this discussion to TZT.

38. David Marjanović says

Hope for the world!

░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░

ixchel, that’s an interesting discussion on Camels With Hammers, and I’m quite surprised that Dan Fincke equates insults with bullying.

Anyway, my comment is in moderation, probably because it quotes “fuck”. I expect it to go through (my next comment immediately went through), but just in case:

It will be interesting to see how your experiment works out. I’d only like to ask you not to equate rational discourse with civil discourse or even just with a subset of it. Also, I’ve been insulted, and I’ve been bullied, and I don’t understand why you think that’s the same.

I have witnessed a discussion about paleobiology between two colleagues that are both quite famous in our small field; I watched it very closely, because it had… apparently bypassed insults and gone straight to a point where I thought they were going to become violent. I thought I was going to need to physically jump between them any second now. The situation suddenly defused when one of them mentioned evidence that the other hadn’t known. It has never once reminded me of bullying.

I think you ought to ask members of oppressed groups which is worse. Being insulted as an individual for an individual failing is far better (almost respectful by comparison) than being the object of an oppressive slur.

I agree.

However, I see your point about “stupid”, “idiot” etc. not really being individual insults.

Dig it. I made the mistake of suggesting something similar in a thread on PeeZee’s site — it was impossible to read the thread as nobody was bothering to make arguments, they were just trading insults.

Was that really the case? Or was your reaction to the insults, which you weren’t used to, so strong that you didn’t see the arguments anymore?

Needless to say, I was told to (a) “shut the fuck up” and (b) “fuck you”. Since I won’t debate an ad hominem attack artist

Argumentum ad hominem doesn’t mean “insult”. It specifically means the claim that an argument is wrong because of a quality of the person who made the argument. Carl Sagan’s example in his Baloney Detection Kit (paraphrasing from memory): “X is a known creationist, so we don’t need to listen to what she says”.

If you want to say “insult”, just do that.

a decent policy which simply prohibits ad hominem attacks, period. Attack the argument, not the arguer.

Again, not what it means. If you think that the argument casts such a bad light on the arguer that you feel it’s necessary to attack the arguer, that’s not an ad-hominem argument. If you think the arguer casts a bad light on the argument – that is an ad-hominem argument, and a logical fallacy if not handled very carefully.

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What the hell was that?
I just got a surprise visit from my mum, bringing us cake.
Yeah, she’s dry at the moment and taking good care of all of us. That’s kind of more unsetteling than her not getting herself under the shower.

:-o

stop existing? nothing he does is different than what the rest of us do. people get pissy because it’s him, not because of what he’s doing.

It’s because of how he’s doing it: he’s not making exceptions for friends*, he doesn’t give up, and… he has a history of occasionally taking a cause and running with it for 30 hours nonstop, headfirst through every available wall… which looks very disturbing, scary even**, though no such case has happened in several months, as far as I know.

Oh, just to state the obvious: it’s good that he doesn’t make exceptions for friends, and – while I haven’t looked into whether he follows people into other threads and derails them – it’s good that he doesn’t just give up.

* T-shirt:
“Friends
don’t let friends
vote Republican.”
** Like when he threatened to go after someone by all means short of physical violence.

I mean, shit, he’s the only one who followed the rule that these arguments were supposed to go to TZT; everyone else insisted on piling on in here instead. how’s that his fault, exactly?

QFT.

(Hey, I’m contributing myself right now, right?)

He’s not a victim. He’s a pain in the ass.

not mutually exclusive categories

QFT.

I’m gonna go be productive somewhere else

*sigh* I hate it when the interesting stuff is over while I’m still reading up on it.

39. says

he’s not making exceptions for friends

No problem.

he doesn’t give up, and… he has a history of occasionally taking a cause and running with it for 30 hours nonstop, headfirst through every available wall… which looks very disturbing, scary even

Big problem.

There are a lot of problems he points out that lots of people will join him in criticizing, like that “christard” issue…and that’s good. However, I did not appoint him to be Inspector Javert of Pharyngula, and he doesn’t need to be the relentless persecutor. That way lies sanctimony.

40. Nutmeg says

Morning, all!

I’m off to a friend’s wedding today. I have to dress up and act feminine and not use profanity. And because it’s a Mennonite/Catholic wedding, I should probably refrain from discussing research at the dinner table. *sigh*

I’m going to be extra snarky when I get back tonight/tomorrow morning. But at least it will all be over then.

41. Louis says

PZ, #11,

I might appear to be an unlikely SGBM/LILAPWL/Ixchel defender, the Lord* knows he and I have had our runs ins, but I’ve got to be blunt here: I think he’s right on this one and the leaping on him is out of line. Hell, I’ll criticise the guy until the cows come home, I think he does things worth criticising, and I can rely on him to do the same to me.

The “-tard” issue with Aquaria was IMO, sadly, Aquaria’s problem. Aquaria’s one of the very small number of online people I genuinely respect, I hope that she can realise her error and return without repeating it. Hell, it’s no worse a fuck up than I have made a gazillion times.

Obviously, none/few of us know what Aquaria’s circumstances are/were and whether or not even a small amount of criticism/pressure, no matter HOW valid, could rub a vulnerable person in a sensitive spot the wrong way. That’s very possible and it’s very possible for SGBM/LILAPWL/Ixchel’s standard operating procedure to do that. Perhaps that’s something he can reflect on.

However, that said, I do think we should police “our own”. That’s why I am so vehement about maintaining my identity as a “movement sceptic” and booting out the “movement sceptics” who are not sufficiently sceptical about social privilege they unconsciously benefit from (I think that’s the nicest description of rampant misogynist arseholes I can manage!).

So I at one and the same time sympathise and agree with SGBM/LILAPWL/Ixchel’s stance of “calling out what he sees as errors”, and wish he could occasionally knock it the fuck off with people here who have established themselves as not being complete morons. Aquaria is an excellent example of someone who has more than demonstrated herself as being “not a moron”!

This path is fraught with danger, witness the recent “BUT PAPPA IS SUCH A NICE GUY REALLY IT WAS JUST A JOKE” drivel. As if that were the point.

If you look upthread Patricia (#302 last page), someone I like immensely and constantly banter with because she is hilarious, said of TM (or perhaps SG…could be both!) that she thought he was “off his meds”. That’s a classic piece of mental illness ableism. Unintentional, doubtless unconsciously said, a common phrase in US parlance that slipped off the fingers. Rather like the “British ‘cunt'”. We all agree that the “British ‘cunt'” is still a sexist slur. Still redolent of all that juicy cultural misogyny that exists to an extent in all cultures. “-tard”/”off his meds” etc are the same thing for mental health.

I chose not to comment, not because I don’t think it’s a serious error or because I think it’s not worth calling out, but because I know Patricia well enough to know she is not an unrepentant fuckwit! She doesn’t have an unrepentant history of being a mental health ableist that I remember (I doubt it exists at all) so I think the better part of community is benefit of the doubt.

Like I said, this is fraught with danger and is a narrow line to walk. Quis custodes ipsos custodes? If we don’t guard ourselves we’re fucked! Look at other forums where community of a group of friends is valued over honesty and you’ll see the same defensiveness we’ve seen from segments of Rationalia. Pharyngulean culture values community but values the honesty standards of that community very highly, we’re all held to account. I think SGBM/LILAPWL/Ixchel contributes positively to that by and large.

I value loyalty, I value community, I also value honesty. I have actively enjoyed SGBM/LILAPWL/Ixchel calling me out on things I have fucked up. I think he and others help us all self regulate.

Where I disagree is going to be on…

Brace yourself

…tone.

I know. A tone argument. Truly I have descended into the depths of hell!

Where I think tone matters is in the initial dealings with known posters. People who have established themselves as being beyond the pale (Lion IRC, Danielhaven, whoever) have amply demonstrated they are utter doughheeds. These people should and are met with the derision they have earned. I think people like Aquaria have earned a different initial tone. I think they have earned a far greater benefit of the doubt and gentler handling.

In my opinion what irks people about SGBM/LILAPWL/Ixchel is he appears (and IIRC has stated things along this line) to disagree with this. He seems to feel he owes no one anything and is free to act with an obvious degree of sanctimony and aggression towards anyone. Fair enough, but I have no idea then why he, or anyone, is outraged when people do not have his back or when they express annoyance with him. And don’t anyone plead “oh it’s only the misrepresentation that matters” I ain’t buyin’ it. Community, hell any relationship, is about compromise. The internet cannot simultaneously both not matter and be real life. If we were in a pub or a regular meet up club (which we effectively are here) we’d rub along a little differently from how we’d rub along in a group of slimepitters.

I think we all have to walk a vigilant line and that line should be equally vigilant for all. Where I differ, it appears, correct me if I am wrong, with some like SGBM/LILAPWL/Ixchel is that established posters on both sides of that line have earned differing degrees of benefit of the doubt when it comes to how we respond.

In my example about Patricia above (sorry Patricia!) Do I go down:

Route A: FOR FUCK’S SAKE YOU DRIBBLING FUCKWAD! THAT’S FUCKING ABLEISM! KNOCK IT OFF! [and then repeat this for every repetition she makes. Exaggeration of tone for comedy purposes only]

Route B: {Polite cough} Patricia, erm, how do I put this, you done messed up, old stick! [The online equivalent of delicately drawing someone aside and saving their blushes]

Route C: Ignore it.

I went down Route C, now Route B…making this Route D! Sorry again Patricia.

I don’t think all “crimes” are equal. I don’t think all “criminals” are equal. I think the 1950s British Bobby “playful cuff round the ear and on home to your parents now” is more useful in 99% of cases with known, established, sensible people than the “both barrels fuck shotgun” used on demonstrable abject morons is. Repetition, what some are calling “harassment” (low bar by my standards but YMMV. See comments re: situations, above), can seem to err towards “shotgun” and away from “playful cuff”.

Ooops TL:DR again. I’ve got a bad case of that atm….yeah “atm”…right Louis.

Louis

* A cat I inherited from Douglas Adams.**

** Cat does not actually exist.

42. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

I have always had a soft spot for SG, and I admire how he has the tenacity to hold onto things he feels are important. It does seem strange to me how long and hard he holds onto them, though, because I simply don’t remember slights (even to myself) for very long, and usually assume that they were made in the heat of a moment and not entirely indicative of how someone feels about another person. I think there are times he makes a category error and takes mistakes as deliberate insults, and as Nerd said there’s a difference between standing up for yourself and continually badgering. I liked the rule awhile back that anything that starts to become a repetitive argument gets shunted to TZT, no matter who it is, so that anyone who doesn’t feel like arguing it can walk away from that particular argument, but the other person can still post their statements in TZT for the record.

43. David Marjanović says

I don’t see any victimhood here — he hasn’t been oppressed, he’s not been hurt by anyone.

Quite extreme accusations are hurled towards him with nice regularity. See comment 4 for a possible example.

I suppose some people are confused by the fact that he’s an extremist – they lose track of which subjects he’s an extremist about.

I also find it problematic that what SG calls self-defense consists of direct counter-accusations that other people, plural, are lying about him.

…On this I agree. He seems to be one of the people (like Matt Penfold, as I pointed out somewhere yesterday) who expect others to think everything through, so he expects people to be aware of the contradictions between their stated opinions – and, well, if you knowingly hold contradictory opinions, if you knowingly say A = ¬A, you are lying.

Most people’s minds are a mess that contain plenty of unexamined contradictions. I find it difficult to detect the ones I hold. ixchel appears to find that quite a bit easier – and then extrapolates from himself to others, as far as I can tell.

he’s not making exceptions for friends

No problem.

It does piss some regulars off. I don’t know if there’s a connection, but SC once said, IIRC, that you mustn’t publicly correct a friend before having contacted them privately…

And because it’s a Mennonite/Catholic wedding, I should probably refrain from discussing research at the dinner table. *sigh*

Depends, I guess. What is the research about?

Quis custodes ipsos

custodiet?

44. Louis says

Thanks David! ;-)

Yes, custodiet.

(I can hear the ghost of Mr Norman telling me off now!)

Louis

45. Nightjar
As usually, when you have the answer, the solution is easy, so here’s the latest example I was thinking of, starting with that comment. I was clearly not adressing SG, not using any kind of ableist language. And since this starts with a direct question towards me it can hardly be considered “reacting to a false statement”. And it goes on and on and on. After I explicitly told him that I don’t want anything to do with him there are EIGHT replies directed at me and yes, that’s textbook harassment.

46. John Morales says

Louis, excellent exposition.

There’s nothing I would dispute in it, and hardly anything I would even quibble about.

Unfortunately, none of it counters PZ’s basis for being displeased.

I endorse Carlie’s comment above, too.

I bear some of the blame, since I engaged him here and not in TZT as I should have.

Ah well, the silver lining is that episode demonstrates that commenters aren’t afraid to dispute PZ when they feel it warranted.

(faint as it may be, it is something)

47. Pteryxx says

David M, I’m replying to you, but rather than move I rot13’d it instead.

Qnivq Z, nobhg guvf:

Dhvgr rkgerzr npphfngvbaf ner uheyrq gbjneqf uvz jvgu avpr erthynevgl. Frr pbzzrag 4 sbe n cbffvoyr rknzcyr.

V svaq lbhe cuenfvat vebavp. Pbzzrag 4 jnf rffragvnyyl “V unira’g sbetbggra be sbetvira guvf guvat lbh qvq.” Gung’f onfvpnyyl jung FT qbrf gb bguref. Qb lbh pbafvqre gur nobir pbzzrag “uheyvat rkgerzr npphfngvbaf” ohg jung FT qbrf vf “pnyyvat bhg reebef”?

nyfb abgr: pbzzrag 4 vapyhqrq jvyyvatarff gb qebc gur fhowrpg. Abg fbzrguvat FT vf xabja sbe; naq FT’f dhbgrq ercyl gb gur vavgvny pynvz “V unira’g sbetvira lbh sbe [k]” jnf abg nal fbeg bs npxabjyrqtrzrag, fnl, ‘V haqrefgnaq lbhe natre’ be ‘Yrg zr xabj vs lbh rire jnag gb qvfphff vg ntnva’ (lrrfu, V’z onq ng guvf). Uvf erfcbafr jnf ‘V arire qvq gung.’

48. says

Quite extreme accusations are hurled towards him with nice regularity

You cannot imagine how unimpressed I am by that. I’ve been accused of raping my daughter, of having sex with just about anyone in the atheist movement you might name, and it’s even been suggested that I’m plotting to kill people who criticize me. So no, my sympathy on that score is pretty much nonexistent.

There’s really no point to arguing with me. I have given a warning. Telling me I shouldn’t be warning Inspector Javert is counter-productive. The alternative is that I sit back and let him go his merry way, and the next time I find him standing in the wreckage of a conversation, full of righteousness and an absolute conviction that he’s right, I’ll just decide I’ve had enough of this bullshit and I’ll boot his ass.

What I’m hoping is that he’ll dial down the crusades a bit and I don’t ever have to do that. But sure, go ahead, if his friends all want to encourage him to march down the path of self-destruction, I have no problem. I have some cruel and pitiless methods of dealing with disruptions myself.

49. Ogvorbis says

Ah well, the silver lining is that episode demonstrates that commenters aren’t afraid to dispute PZ when they feel it warranted.

But I thought we were all PZed’s sock puppets which would mean that the disputation is staged.

Happy Thursday, to one and all.

50. Nightjar says

learn the difference between having his say (a few posts, say up to five total would do), and forcing someone to agree with him by shear harassment

Yes! And next time I see someone using the word “cunt” (but otherwise generally agree with what they’re saying) and feel like saying something, I’ll be sure not to call them out more than five times, even if they keep using it. Wouldn’t want to “harass” anyone, after all.

Ugh.

51. Brownian says

Yes! And next time I see someone using the word “cunt” (but otherwise generally agree with what they’re saying) and feel like saying something, I’ll be sure not to call them out more than five times, even if they keep using it. Wouldn’t want to “harass” anyone, after all.

Frankly, it’s just self-censorship to not use words likemretard, cunt, faggot, chink, etc.

52. consciousness razor says

Where I disagree is going to be on…

Brace yourself

…tone.

I know. A tone argument. Truly I have descended into the depths of hell!

According to #9, SG is supposed to be the Official Tone Nanny™. Irony aside, I don’t think you’re making a tone argument so much as a loyalty argument. Which is of course just as bad.

I think they have earned a far greater benefit of the doubt and gentler handling.

As far as I’m concerned, they lose that benefit as soon as they start digging deeper, since there is much less to doubt. It doesn’t matter who it is. It could be my mother, and I’d still be pretty relentless if she says something bigoted (again!) and won’t back down after a polite correction. (Not that she’s especially likely to do that, but I use her as an example with no exaggeration.) I wouldn’t like doing it, but it would be something I ought to do, especially as someone who’s close to her and thus has a better chance of being a positive influence.

53. John Morales says

Nightjar @49, you know what this place is like.

In such a hypothetical situation, if you make no more than five comments, you can bet pretty much every other regular and semi-regular within cooee will also do so. Multiply your five by however many that is. Add them up.

And you should know that when PZ notices such a mess, the banhammer will almost certainly splat the cause then and there.

In short, there’s no need for ultimate personal perseverance by any given commenter to maintain the spirit of the place, nor is it generally forbidden.

54. David Marjanović says

V svaq lbhe cuenfvat vebavp. Pbzzrag 4 jnf rffragvnyyl “V unira’g sbetbggra be sbetvira guvf guvat lbh qvq.” Gung’f onfvpnyyl jung FT qbrf gb bguref. Qb lbh pbafvqre gur nobir pbzzrag “uheyvat rkgerzr npphfngvbaf” ohg jung FT qbrf vf “pnyyvat bhg reebef”?

Gur npphfngvba vf gung ur qvq gung guvat. V jnf whfg gbb ynml gb qvt qbja gb gur bevtvany naq pvgrq gur cynpr jurer vg’f dhbgrq vafgrnq.

You cannot imagine how unimpressed I am by that. I’ve been accused of

…Yes, but by people you ban (or people who never commented here in the first place), not by fellow regular commenters on a blog you’re not the owner of.

But sure, go ahead, if his friends all want to encourage him to march down the path of self-destruction, I have no problem.

Not what I’m doing. I’ve criticized him several times in the last few comments. He’s by no means blameless – it’s just that the set of things he’s guilty of and the set of things he’s most often accused of aren’t congruent.

55. David Marjanović says

In such a hypothetical situation, if you make no more than five comments, you can bet pretty much every other regular and semi-regular within cooee will also do so.

Uh, no.

I think I’ve never called out “retard” – because, invariably, somebody else has already done it by the time I see it.

56. Psych-Oh says

It took me all morning to catch up and I’m still foggy.
On a completely unrelated topic, I am watching a good friend lose a lot of friends over the whole Chic-fil-a drama. I guess his Christian friends can only be his friend if he is gay without being GAY. I feel bad for him, on one hand, but I guess now he can see who his friends really are. I think I’m going to go see him tonight. Is anyone else seeing this happen as well?

57. Pteryxx says

because, invariably, somebody else has already done it by the time I see it.

…That does pretty much prove the point, y’know.

58. consciousness razor says

Before I go, I just want to express how much I love to hate the Orwellian connotations “righteousness” (and maybe even “relentlessness”) has taken on, as if thinking you’re right (or doing the right thing) ought to be avoided or done in moderation, for no apparent reason. I guess at least it’s a nice little shorthand for “you might be wrong, but even if you aren’t: waaaaaahhhh!”

59. John Morales says

David @54, fair enough.

Do you accept “quite a few”, instead?

60. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

I’ll be sure not to call them out more than five times, even if they keep using it. Wouldn’t want to “harass” anyone, after all.

If they keep using it, it would reset the counter back to zero for each new time.

I’ll say I’m uncomfortable talking about SG as if he’s not in the room (hi), it’s just the awkwardness of the setup. So directly to you, I’d like for you to keep on doing what you do, but when the discussion is quickly evident as intractable, it’s either that they just aren’t getting what you mean or disagree with it, no further argument will make them budge, so keeping on with it won’t get any results. Also, as David said, sometimes people hold contradictory ideas without consciously lying about it. That could be a bigger discussion of what “lying” actually means (like the one about if you think you caught a small fish when you really caught a big one but you decide to lie and say you caught a big one, which is really the truth, were you still lying?), but generally nobody’s going at it with an agenda.

61. Antiochus Epiphanes says

Oh yeah. Let’s ban the guy who is relentlessly honest, because we can’t have the party spoiled.

Or maybe we need a new rule: you can be honest once or twice, but if the regs don’t like it, take it to TZT. No wait. That’s what’s happened. I mean, if the regs don’t like it, shut up. Especially if you’re right and argue effectively.

This shit is ridonkulous.

62. Nightjar says

you know what this place is like.

I’m not referring to this place in particular.

And this place was not always like this. Getting where we are now took more than five posts. That’s my point.

In short, there’s no need for ultimate personal perseverance by any given commenter to maintain the spirit of the place, nor is it generally forbidden.

I agree. But I don’t exactly want to be told how many times I should object to something like that. If people agree I’m right to do so the first time, they shouldn’t all start turning against me by the sixth. IMO.

63. drbunsen, le savant fous says

that’s because there are people who don’t like him personally

Bullshit.

All we have to go on here are the words as they are written.

64. John Morales says

carlie @59, much better rebuttal than mine, there, and for more than one reason.

<yawn>

I’m tired and retiring for the night; it should be interesting to catch up tomorrow.

65. Antiochus Epiphanes says

Oh. Even better. Ixchel has to tie one arm behind his back (metaphorically). He can no longer use the letter “e”.

66. John Morales says

Nightjar @61, no worries.

(G’night, for real)

67. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

AE – would it help to have a corollary guideline that when someone is called out on something, they address it? Doesn’t have to be that they agree with the assessment, just that they do acknowledge the point the other person has made and agree or refute or say they’ll think about it. Sometimes it looks like part of the issue is that SG/Ixchel keeps on going on a particular issue because the other person dismisses his point to start with and then won’t engage at all, so he keeps on going in the hope of trying to get evidence of being heard.

68. Nightjar says

G’night, John.

***

Also, as David said, sometimes people hold contradictory ideas without consciously lying about it.

69. Nightjar says

what David has been saying, even.

70. Nightjar says

SG/Ixchel keeps on going on a particular issue because the other person dismisses his point to start with and then won’t engage at all, so he keeps on going in the hope of trying to get evidence of being heard.

Yes, I get why this can be annoying, but I guess I just fail to see what’s so wrong about it. Personally, I tend to get more annoyed at those who won’t engage.

(I do understand and respect that sometimes people have a good reason to not engage. I just don’t see how that can be the case when it comes to using “-tard”.)

71. Antiochus Epiphanes says

Carlie: Sorry. I was being facetious. But, what NightJar said.

72. David Marjanović says

I think I’m going to go see him tonight.

Very good.

because, invariably, somebody else has already done it by the time I see it.

…That does pretty much prove the point, y’know.

~:-| I’m trying to say people tend not to repeat what’s already been said. It may not have been a good idea to extrapolate from myself here, but how does it prove the opposite point?

Do you accept “quite a few”, instead?

Probably not.

Bullshit.

All we have to go on here are the words as they are written.

…The very issue here is that there are now so many words written by the regulars that everybody believes, rightly or wrongly, they allow conclusions about their personalities.

Oh. Even better. Ixchel has to tie one arm behind his back (metaphorically). He can no longer use the letter “e”.

Lying asshoal! ;-)

Sometimes it looks like part of the issue is that SG/Ixchel keeps on going on a particular issue because the other person dismisses his point to start with and then won’t engage at all

Sometimes, it seems, that’s because there’s a misunderstanding going on.

And sometimes when that happens, people think it’s so obvious that they feel insulted by a demand to address it.

73. ChasCPeterson says

Srsly, Dr. Myers? “I don’t know what’s actually going on and I don’t want to know”? All about the numbers?
OK, man.

SG stands up for honesty and consistency. Period.
People who feel ‘harassed’ by that are defending dishonesty, hypocrisy, and tribal double standards.

‘Paul’-on-the-internet (do I know you by a different nym?):

that would clearly be harassment. And similar has happened with certain personalities on Pharyngula before (although it seemed to normally involve Sven, heh).

yeah, heh.
Are you accusing me of harassing somebody? That’s how it reads to me. Please specify the certain personalities.

74. Tony:

I think I’m going to take a break from here folks.

Yep, me too.

I have absolutely zero interest in dealing with this shit in TET* and I’m not about to let my weekend get ruined by this pointless fucking argument that we will rehash over and over again until ixchel finds another online community to grace with his presence.

I’ll see you all when I see you all.

*There’s a reason why I tend to stay out of TZT– I think having two seperate ballpits is a smashing idea, if only so I can ignore one of them.

75. Paul says

Are you accusing me of harassing somebody? That’s how it reads to me. Please specify the certain personalities.

I’ve only used this nym, although I’ve really only commented around the edges (and not since the move). I did write a follow-up and said the parenthetical was ill-considered, but it was generally a two-way-ish thing on evo-devo topics where people kept bringing personal baggage from other threads into wherever the current one went, even when they weren’t on-topic. You were generally on the receiving end, though.

76. Ogvorbis says

I think I’m going to take a break from here folks.

Yep, me too.

Thirded.

How many times do we need to have the same argument in which the assumption of bad faith is at the center but no one will admit it?

77. David Marjanović says

SG stands up for honesty and consistency. Period.
People who feel ‘harassed’ by that are defending dishonesty, hypocrisy, and

If “dishonesty” includes the kind of intellectual “dishonesty” that it is to harbor an unexamined contradiction in one’s head.

I wouldn’t use that word this way, but ixchel does explicitly include “intellectual dishonesty by negligence” (scroll down to the bottom of that comment). Reminds me of truth machine.

(…what? I happened to have that thread open, because someone cited it earlier! :-) )

the assumption of bad faith is at the center

What do you mean? Do you mean what I just mentioned above?

78. chigau (自分のサンドイッチを作ろう！) says

I think I’m going to take a break from here folks.

I’m not.

79. Owlmirror says

nothing he does is different than what the rest of us do. people get pissy because it’s him, not because of what he’s doing.

I’m pretty sure that it’s because of what he’s doing, which is sufficiently different that it’s recognizable as being the thing he does.

======

I think there are times he makes a category error and takes mistakes as deliberate insults,

See, that itself is a mistake. He’s been fairly clear that insults qua insults are not that important to him, while misrepresentation is. You can call him “a repulsive horrible shithead”, say, and that would be far less bothersome to him than saying something like: “He thinks that all commentators on Pharyngula are less morally pure than himself”.

Or so I understand him, anyway.

But he does refer to misrepresentation via mistakes/sloppiness/overgeneralization as — at least sometimes — being lies, which implies deliberation which I think I would have to agree is not always in the original comment that he responds to, and that it would be charitable not to assume explicitly.

80. People who feel ‘harassed’ by that are defending dishonesty, hypocrisy, and tribal double standards.

Oh, cool, so, the harassed gets to define harassment except when it’s SG in which case you are the arbiter.
BTW, just accusing everybody else of lying isn’t standing up for honesty.

81. says

Oh, all right, I stand corrected. I had no idea that Inspector Javert was so unique in possessing that commodity called “truth” here — I’ve always assumed that all of the people arguing in good faith here were reaching for truth as best they can. I also missed the part where I was warning him to stop telling the truth to people.

But wait — if he is special in his dedication to the truth, why should I trust all you horrible slippery-tongued liars?

82. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

I wish the people defending SG would stop conflating “SG pointed out my inconsistency/hypocrisy so now I’m gonna pout” and “SG may be right, but the way he goes about proving/insisting it to people makes some people uncomfortable”. Just because I don’t like how he does something doesn’t mean I think he’s wrong. He’s right about the “Christard” thing, which multiple people have acknowledged. It’s the fact that he will not drop things, to the point of driving otherwise good commenters off the blog, that is the problem. If Aquaria saying “Christards” is that big of an issue, let her know it bothers you, explain why, and if she still won’t self-censor, killfile her ass. That’s what everyone else around here does. People around here manage to deal with conflicts like that all the time without derailing threads and shit.

83. Antiochus Epiphanes says

Shit, PZ. Maybe send us all to TZT.

84. RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement's Hospital says

Oh wait, you can’t, because SG hounded her off of here. Whoooooooops!

85. says

OK, everyone who is less honest than Inspector Javert, go hang out in TZT for a while.

86. Paul says

Oh, cool, so, the harassed gets to define harassment except when it’s SG in which case you are the arbiter.

And yet you’re not complaining when PZ declares himself the arbiter in the case of SG? Weird, that. SG’s being told to “dial down the crusades” in a thread where he’s just been defending himself against misrepresentation. No concern about there being harassment there, no siree. Although I suppose he didn’t say that SG wasn’t harassed, just that he’s not a victim and what matters is that everyone is happy, so it’s just more that it’s irrelevant if SG is harassed.

There are a lot of problems he points out that lots of people will join him in criticizing, like that “christard” issue…and that’s good.

Wait a minute. This whole TET-fight started because people were giving SG a lot of shit FOR that “christard” issue, and he felt the need to defend himself providing citations.

87. Paul says

Crossposted. I’m off of TET for this subject.

88. says

The problem with Ixchel is, I think:
1) His very agressive way of handling things. Let’s face it, what he does is not just being assertive.
2) The often large number of comments he throws at people, which I do consider borderline bullying.
3) The fact that he often assumes dishonesty, when probably a misunderstanding or mistake is all that’s happened. And he attacks very aggressively what he perceives as dishonesty. As a result people feel harassed, which is understandeble and could have been avoided.

I do think Ixchel is, on the whole, an honest person. I agree with Ixchel on many points, including the ‘christard’ issue. I do, however, have some problems with how he goes about adressing these issues.

89. Owlmirror says

SG stands up for honesty and consistency. Period.

No, he’s admitted that he’s pro-hypocrisy. So there are things that he is deliberately not consistent about, and possibly not honest about.

People who feel ‘harassed’ by that are defending dishonesty, hypocrisy, and

If “dishonesty” includes the kind of intellectual “dishonesty” that it is to harbor an unexamined contradiction in one’s head.
I wouldn’t use that word this way, but ixchel does explicitly include “intellectual dishonesty by negligence” (scroll down to the bottom of that comment).

And I think that accusation of dishonesty itself has a whiff of dishonesty about it, which is one of the things that bothered me during the recent unpleasantness. It was hard to express exactly where things were going wrong, though, and I would have to search out and copy-and-paste various blocks of text to highlight this, which would consume lots of time.

Reminds me of truth machine.

That’s not necessarily a good thing.

90. And yet you’re not complaining when PZ declares himself the arbiter in the case of SG?

I respect PZ’s right to maintain his blog as he likes it.
And since I’ll admit that I’m heavily biased against SG due to his past interactions with me, I’ll just keep myself out of the discussion whether somebody harassed him or not ’cause I just don’t trust my judgement on that.

no siree.

And here’s a heartfelt “fuck you, too” from me.

91. Paul says

I respect PZ’s right to maintain his blog as he likes it.

We weren’t talking about blog maintenance, we were talking about harassment and the definition thereof.

92. We weren’t talking about blog maintenance, we were talking about harassment and the definition thereof.

If SG says that he’s being harassed then that needs to be adressed and a solution needs to be found.
Since, as has been confirmed by more people than me the problem is not only how people react to him but also how he behaves towards other people, change must be made on all sides.

93. Owlmirror says

And I think that accusation of dishonesty itself has a whiff of dishonesty about it, which is one of the things that bothered me during the recent unpleasantness.

Of course, the misrepresentations of what lilapwl wrote did get so bad that there could be no explanation other than dishonesty. But not all of what he referred to that way were that way. I’m sure it all made sense in his head, but that’s the problem — if people are misinterpreting you so badly that it leads to anger and more misrepresentation, then maybe you need to rethink your communication tactics.

There’s probably something in the psychological literature about emotional feedback loops of the sort demonstrated in that exchange.

94. Louis says

John, #45,

Faint praise. Nicely damned! ;-)

Louis

95. Louis says

If we’re more honest than Inspector Javert we can stay? Hmmm.

I’m more honest than Madame Bovary but less honest than Winnie the Pooh. This concept of a literary character honesty spectrum interests me. I shall subscribe to its newsletter.

Louis

96. Matt Penfold says

I’m more honest than Madame Bovary but less honest than Winnie the Pooh.

But Pooh did eat all the honey, so there was none for tea.

97. Louis says

But Pooh did eat all the honey, so there was none for tea.

IT’S A GLANDULAR THING OKAY!?

;-)

Louis

98. Owlmirror says

Silly old Louis.

99. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

100. Louis says

I’m not old! I am the Peter Pan of Puerility! I have dick jokes and I am willing to use them.

Louis

101. says

When should just give up? When do we throw our hands in the air and stop trying to inform the public with actual facts?

New polling data shows that an alarming number of Americans think President Barrack Obama is a Muslim. The numbers show an increase over 2008 in this particular flavor of misinformation. Not only do they think Obama is Muslim, they think he is a secret Muslim.

From Romney’s recent campaign speeches we can tell that he has picked up on this and is repeating the adjective “foreign” to describe Obama. So are the dunderheads on Fox News, most of whom question Obama’s loyalty to the United States.

When we break down the stats to show those who believe Obama is a secret Muslim by political affiliation, we find about 1/3 of Republicans believe that. There’s a chart and more text here:

Overall, less than half of Americans (49%) overall, even after three-and-a-half years of Obama’s presidency, can correctly identify his Christian faith, while 17% continue to believe he’s a secret Muslim. But it’s the GOP’s far-right base that’s throwing off the curve — more than a third of them get it wrong.

What’s more, note the trend — after getting to watch the president over nearly four years, listening to his speeches in which he’s talked about his Christian faith, watching him get inaugurated with his hand on a Christian Bible, more Americans believe Obama’s a Muslim now than did so in October 2008, and the number of conservative Republicans who believe this has more than doubled. The more they learned about reality, the deeper they sank into their alternate reality.

The conventional wisdom was that Romney’s Mormonism might pose a problem for him in 2012, but that’s not the case — Americans know he’s a Mormon and don’t care. With 100 days to go before the election, more voters say they’re “uncomfortable” with Obama’s religion than his rival’s.

This is why Michelle Bachmann’s anti-Muslim campaign is getting so much traction.

102. theophontes (坏蛋) says

@ Pharyngufoodies

The latest incarnation of Phoeniciatje.

Supper was home made Tortelini, with four different fillings: cheese&mushroom, mushroom&pesto, (home made)riccotta&pesto and riccoto&olive.

103. theophontes (坏蛋) says

@ Lynna,OM

Mitt: More likely to open an Embassy of United States in Kolob than an Embassy of United States in Palestine…

(Why must the whole planet suffer for ‘Merkin idiocy?)

104. theophontes (坏蛋) says

@ Lynna

A nice roundup of Romney’s, and his associate’s, bigoted taunts.

Mentions:

Only Anglo-Saxons need apply.

I need to point out that Kenya is part of the Commonwealth, unlike America. Also, Kenya’s laws and political system are based on the British system. If anything, as a Kenyan, Obama’s father was culturally closer to the UK than the stinking racist bigot Mitt Romney. Mitt gets so hung up on colour, yet continues to spell it as “color”. AAAAAAAARGH!

105. Owlmirror says

Not only do they think Obama is Muslim, they think he is a secret Muslim.

???

But it’s the GOP’s far-right base that’s throwing off the curve — more than a third of them get it wrong.

Well, that explains everything.

No, really. I suspect that if there were a poll that Obama secretly eats puppies and kicks babies, it would be the GOP’s far-right base that would agree with that.

Say. . . I wonder if someone could get a poll that says that?

“17% of Americans hate Obama so much that they’ll agree with anything at all that accuses him of doing something or being something that they think is bad.”

106. ChasCPeterson says

Paul @#74: ah, thank you. Apologies for the mis-readage.

Taking a response to teh ECO @#80 over to TZT as requested.

107. says

Owlmirror @ 105

Not only do they think Obama is Muslim, they think he is a secret Muslim.

???

I think this is similar to the “Obama is going to take away your guns” propaganda. That is, you can tell he is going to take away your guns by the fact that he hasn’t yet taken away your guns. It’s a secret plot he is planning to spring on you if he wins another term. A conspiracy is more exciting, far tastier than mere facts.

Not only is Obama a Muslim, he is a secret Muslim. You can tell he is a Muslim by the fact that he keeps it a secret.

Owlmirror has trouble thinking like a right wing nutter.

108. Sili says

it’s a Mennonite/Catholic wedding

How does that work?

109. David Marjanović says

Reminds me of truth machine.

That’s not necessarily a good thing.

It definitely isn’t in this case.

I’m sure it all made sense in his head, but that’s the problem — if people are misinterpreting you so badly that it leads to anger and more misrepresentation, then maybe you need to rethink your communication tactics.

There’s probably something in the psychological literature about emotional feedback loops of the sort demonstrated in that exchange.

Both seconded.

cutest Javert confrontation ever

WTF.

(…Because of Sister 2, I’ve watched plenty of How I Met Your Mother, so I get that part. But…)

110. David Marjanović says

How does that work?

Both sides promise to bring up the children in that side’s faith.

Easy.

111. Sili says

OK, everyone who is less honest than Inspector Javert, go hang out in TZT for a while.

You do realise that the Pericope Adulterae would never work in real life, right?

112. Sili says

The latest incarnation of Phoeniciatje.

That’s a beautiful loaf. How does one make those?

113. Cipher, OM, Sweetness and Fluff says

Taking a break! Short version: Had a rough night, decided to try to reduce stress by leaving here, then came back to post goodbye and got irritated. Still ♥ everybody though. Thanks. See you.

114. Sili says

Both sides promise to bring up the children in that side’s faith.

I wasn’t even thinking of children. More about what sorta service can be agreed on. And how does one keep the guests from condemning one another to Hell?

115. Louis says

Cipher,

Much love and hugs. I’d rather you weren’t off, but take a break and get yourself happier and flying right. You’ll be missed.

Louis

116. Sili says

Anyone good with Textual Criticism? CJO? Owlmirror?

Are there any good books on the Documentary Hypothesis for the Old Testament? And the recent critiques of it?

I’ve just finished reading Silberman and Finkelstein’s The Bible Unearthed which does an excellent job of correlating the Deutoronomistic History with the Syro-Palaestinian archaeology, but I’d like something digging in to the nitty-gritty of the Redaction Criticism.

117. thunk (Фарингюловская Народная Республика) says

Take care, cipher.

118. Cipher
Take care
*hugs*

++++
Hmmm, guess that’s the end of my tomatoes.
The plague of lice is only mostly over due to heavy maintainance and I can’t ask my MIL to do that.
Damn.
I get irrationally attached to plants I grow from seed.

119. says

Speaking of marriages, Steve Benson posted a thorough survey of polygamy in the mormon church. His research is excellent.

Excerpts below:

“We breathe the free air, we have the best looking men and handsomest women, and if they (non-Mormons) envy us our position, well they may, for they are a poor, narrow-minded, pinch-backed race of men, who chain themselves down to the law of monogamy, and live all their days under the dominion of one wife. They ought to be ashamed of such conduct, and the still fouler channel which flows from their practices; and it is not to be wondered at that they should envy those who so much better understand the social relations.”
– Apostle George A Smith, “Journal of Discourses,” ol. 3, p. 291

“Her book . . . states that ‘[t]he [Utah] state legislature is consistently 90% Mormon . . . and several polygamist men serve in local government positions, including as mayors . . . and councilmen.’ Asserting that ‘the attitude between Mormons and Mormon fundamentalist polygamists is that of kissing cousins with more similarities than differences.’ Moore-Emmett suggests that the heavily Mormon Utah government is unduly tolerant of polygamy and reluctant to acknowledge the abuses of many polygamous families. Although the official stance of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is against polygamy, several of the women’s stories reveal that LDS leaders dismiss the deviant sects and blame the women who come to them for help.

“It is Moore-Emmett’s belief that the LDS Church who started polygamy in this country should take responsibility and provide financial aid and other resources for those polygamous families who have been abused.”

“Throughout the world, most polygamy is exogamous, or breeding outside the group. Breeding within, as Mormons did–endogamous polygamy–is virtually never practiced…. While discussing health problems at a family gathering with some of my cousins’ wives, we discovered astonishingly that three out of four of us, all polygamy descendants, had borne a son with a clubfoot. . . .

“[We] ‘hierarchy children’ are from the ‘elite’ first families of Mormonism and these families started polygamy in America. Nearly all the Mormon founding families were relatives, so the first polygamists enjoyed relations to different degrees when the divine experiment began. The Twelve Apostles of Mormonism then acted to increase this familial relationship by marrying other relatives until in 1877, at the end of Brigham Young’s reign as Mormon Prophet and King, the polygamous hierarchy became l00% interrelated. D. Michael Quinn, former Brigham Young University professor, states, ‘The Mormon practice of polygamy enabled men to marry daughters, nieces, cousins, granddaughters and former wives of other General Authorities.’

“Parents who share a common ancestor are consanguineous. Consanguinity causes aggregate clusters of deleterious genes to collect in families, which then express themselves as rare recessive disorders like nephritis, cystic fibrosis, biliary artesia, albinism, short stature and many others. Consanguinity also causes rare recessive disorders to mask as dominant…”

“… the Mormon Church touts itself as the quintessential traditional family values church . . . . They are quick to point out to reporters that they no longer practice polygamy and excommunicate members who continue to do so. This denial is hollow considering the record.”

120. FUCK my laptop died!

POwers up but won’t start. Tried several times. FUCK FUCK FUCK taking it for repair monday but probably will need a new one. Was a tablet for art too…and means that a new purchase of photoshop will be needed because of fucking licensees. SHIT.

121. says

Cipher,

Take care!

Lynna,

Owlmirror has trouble thinking like a right wing nutter.

Right wing nutter… Thinking… Error! Error! Does not compute!

Ing,

I fear my own laptop isn’t going to keep going much longer either. It seems to heat up really quickly these days. I now work with it, mounted on some books and with a pack of ice sitting next to the air intake.

122. Argh, hugs to Ing

So, I’m off for a shower and then off to bed.
Tomorrow we’ll be off to France.
I’m taking the laptop with me, so I might say hello once in a while.
Take care

123. Taking it in for repair. From a quick glance it looks like it’s an LED burn out. Not sure if they can replace that or not

124. birgerjohansson says

“Tax breaks for the Romney’s dancing horse” http://freethoughtblogs.com/zingularity/2012/07/28/tax-breaks-for-the-romneys-dancing-horse/
I am sure this is a very nice horse…but it sends the wrong signals for someone who advocates austerity economics.

From Ed Brayton: Chaplain’s Assistant Gives Awesome Speech http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2012/07/28/chaplains-assistant-gives-awesome-speech/

125. David Marjanović says

LOL!!! Star Trek has, like, totally run out of imagination?

There are Illyrians in Enterprise 3:19! X-D X-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

Фарингюловская Народная Республика

+ 1

who chain themselves down to the law of monogamy, and live all their days under the dominion of one wife

He’d rather be under the dominion of several wives? Come on. That joke is Older Than Feudalism [no link required].

and means that a new purchase of photoshop will be needed because of fucking licensees.

…Seriously? Don’t you still have the CD or DVD you installed it from?

At worst, you can still plug the harddisk into another computer and copy Photoshop from there, I suppose.

Tomorrow we’ll be off to France.

<sing>Douce France, cher pays de mon enfance…</sing>

126. yeah, heh.
Are you accusing me of harassing somebody? That’s how it reads to me. Please specify the certain personalities.

I’m usually the person accusing that of Chas and I really haven’t been seeing him doing anything I had a problem with for a while now.

The problem with Ixchel is, I think:
1) His very agressive way of handling things. Let’s face it, what he does is not just being assertive.
2) The often large number of comments he throws at people, which I do consider borderline bullying.
3) The fact that he often assumes dishonesty, when probably a misunderstanding or mistake is all that’s happened. And he attacks very aggressively what he perceives as dishonesty. As a result people feel harassed, which is understandeble and could have been avoided.

Yeah I saw that before, still doesn’t justifying singling him out for anything.

127. …Seriously? Don’t you still have the CD or DVD you installed it from?

At worst, you can still plug the harddisk into another computer and copy Photoshop from there, I suppose.

I have it but I thought the license limited to one computer?

128. chigau (自分のサンドイッチを作ろう！) says

I ♥ helicopters.

129. says

130. says

Yeah I saw that before, still doesn’t justifying singling him out for anything.

Oh, I agree he shouldn’t be singled out for it. I was just trying to clarify why I think some people feel intimidated or harassed by ixchel. No more should be made out of my comment, and in fact, evven though I liked Aquaria, looking back at the interaction in question, I didn’t see ixchel’s action as harassment.

131. birgerjohansson says

chigau

“I ♥ helicopters”

You shold have the only specimen of the Fairey Rotodyne restored. Rotors plus wings, without the eternal problems of the Osprey.
Only big disadvantage was loud noise, which presumably scared off potential customers from flying it from city center to city center.
— — — —
Since the Illyrians got overrun by the Romans ca 200 BC, the Romulans should not have much trouble kicking their asses.

132. says

I’m not the only one who has been getting emails from mormons that are essentially fundraising vehicles for Mitt Romney. The trouble is that mormons are using official mormon Ward email lists to send these out. The LDS Church put out a no-politics statement. This is what they usually do, and then they ignore the fact that their members use church resources for campaign purposes.

Say one thing, do another.

Full story here: http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispatches/joannabrooks/6220/call_centers_and…_congregational_email_lists/

Excerpts from a longer story are pasted in below:

…it looks like at least a few of Romney’s Utah supporters are using LDS congregational email lists to drum up donations…

A reader somewhere in the Beehive State sent me the following message received via congregational email list:

Subject: Women for Mitt Join Together

Dear fellow Utah women!

During the week of our Pioneer Days celebration, I’d like to invite you to join Utah women all throughout the state in sending a loud message of support and relevance as Utahns, and as women in this presidential campaign. We need to be relevant and the only way we can is with our dollars. We might not have any weight when it comes to votes, but we do with our ability to fill the war chest so Governor Romey has the ability to communicate his message in key battleground states. Our dollars—even just a \$25 dollar contribution—add up in a significant way and provide the campaign with the necessary resources to win the White House.

As co-chair of the Utah Women for Romney, I am excited about our plan to involve you right now. Utah women have a history of leading the way and I hope we can do it now. Did you know that the nation’s first senator was from Utah? Martha Hughes Cannon! And in 1870 when we were just a territory, Utah was the first place where women legally voted (we barely beat out Wyoming since our elections were earlier.) Utah women have a tradition of yearning to make a difference. We need to be a factor in this race, and this is the only way we can. For the next week, we want to see if we can get 1,000 Utah women to contribute a minimum of \$25 online (the rules will actually “let” you contribute all the way up to \$75,000 but we really just want to count you in at any level!) I invite you to pass this along to every Utah woman who can contribute \$25…

This is an investment that I’m asking you to make. This isn’t just throwing money at any old political campaign. Your donation is an investment in making America’s course correction possible. Think of what that means in terms of tax and regulation reform alone as a “return on investment.” That really does affect your bottom line…

This is a “jumpstart” for several more fun events we have planned leading up to the November election, and we are the first state to try this. We’d love to show all the other W4R teams throughout the nation that this can work, and once again, Utah can lead the way!

I did not know this! Awesome! Glad I saved the disc

134. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

*peeks in*

Oh fuck this. A few quick ones and I’m off.

Ing – Here’s hoping that if they can’t fix the burnout, you can at least find a new laptop that’s as good as the old one was.

Psych – Sucks for your friend. True, he now knows who his real friends are, but still . . . it’s a punch in the gut when that shit happens.

135. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

Louis:

In my opinion what irks people about SGBM/LILAPWL/Ixchel is he appears (and IIRC has stated things along this line) to disagree with this. He seems to feel he owes no one anything and is free to act with an obvious degree of sanctimony and aggression towards anyone. Fair enough, but I have no idea then why he, or anyone, is outraged when people do not have his back or when they express annoyance with him. And don’t anyone plead “oh it’s only the misrepresentation that matters” I ain’t buyin’ it. Community, hell any relationship, is about compromise.

This. I couldn’t quite articulate it so thankfully you did. A style of approach (coming from any commenter)that refuses to recognize the ordinary convention of extending good faith to those who have demonstrated they deserve it (for years, sometimes) enrages people. It certainly does me. That doesn’t mean friends get a pass for being douches. But it does mean that if you signal aggression more appropriate to an unknown and potentially dangerous/awful person it’s going to make your friends hate you.

Very few of us are Straw Vulcans. This is a normal part of most human emotion and it’s not going to go away. (David M—I know you often don’t get this and don’t experience it the same way, so please don’t lecture about it OK?).

136. thunk (Фарингюловская Народная Республика) says

David Marjanovic:

Of course! Got any flag proposals?

Birger: Audley’d need at least two.

Ing, I hope you get laptop repaired or replaced quickly.

137. ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ says

A style of approach (coming from any commenter)that refuses to recognize the ordinary convention of extending good faith to those who have demonstrated they deserve it (for years, sometimes) enrages people. It certainly does me.

I don’t know what “demonstrated they deserve” anything means.

You tried to silence me the other day by suggesting that because you think I have OCD, my concerns aren’t worth addressing.

So I’m pretty sure if anybody’s demonstrated any deserving, you haven’t.

138. chigau (自分のサンドイッチを作ろう！) says

Se what happens when you don’t stick around to fill the Thread with kittens and chocolate?
—-
Did not. Did too. Did not. Did too. Did not. Did too. Did not. Did not. Did too. Did not. Did too. Did not. Did too. Did not. Did oo. Did not. Did too. Did not. Did not. Did too. Did not. Did too.

139. Owlmirror says

Are there any good books on the Documentary Hypothesis for the Old Testament?

Well there’s the obvious one of R. E. Friedman’s Who Wrote the Bible?.

And the recent critiques of it?

Friedman’s book is itself a critique (he disagrees with the standard interpretation of the origin of P, as I recall).

But it’s been a while since I read that, and a while since I’ve read critiques/arguments against/for the Hypothesis as a whole.

I’ve been busy with other stuff.

140. My first thought is that Reddit is a fucking stupid idea. I’m glad to see that confirmed from just reading the first Edit.

Yes let us all admire the bravery of the Reddit rapist community. Jesus fuck, WTF were they thinking?

141. says

WTF! This… is… WTF! Hope for humanity gone once more… Urgh.

142. chigau (自分のサンドイッチを作ろう！) says

Helicopters can fly backward and sideways and hover.

143. Beatrice says

I’ve been going through it and there is a disturbing number of men saying that they regret what they did, but keep explaining how young men are horny and can’t help themselves when lust takes over.
And of course, they get plenty of pats on the back for confessing and realizing they were wrong. Except that they made excuses, but let’s forget that!.
One actually wrote “An erect dick had no conscience”.

144. Beatrice says

145. says

Helicopters can fly backward and sideways and hover.

Pfff… So can humming birds. Ha! Take that!

146. Humming birds can also drink nectar! Helicopters cannot!

147. says

there is a disturbing number of men saying that they regret what they did, but keep explaining how young men are horny and can’t help themselves when lust takes over.

Typical. I don’t get these people. I honestl do not get these people.

148. Sili says

But it’s been a while since I read that, and a while since I’ve read critiques/arguments against/for the Hypothesis as a whole.

I’ve been busy with other stuff.

Don’t worry. Thanks!

149. I honestly cannot imagine why anyone on reddit would think that was a good idea. It’s better than I expected but Jesus. Any thing where you have to tell victims “let’s respect the bravery of victimizes here…” and tell them that anger is unproductive is going to be fucked up. People have to learn that, no the internet is not everything. You are not a institute for studying criminology or psychology reddit. You are not in corrections, rehabilitation or research. This is a topic beyond your mission and capabilities.

I swear, it’s like when Captain Planet tried to tackle AIDS

150. says

Humming birds can also drink nectar! Helicopters cannot!

Indeed, and while doing so they pollinate flowers. Have you evevr seen a helicopter pollinate a flower? Didn’t think so.

(Okay, I guess since helicopters cause a lot of wind and many trees, shrubs and grasses are wind pollinated, helicopters could in fact pollinate flowers, but that’s just not the same, now is it.)

151. chigau (自分のサンドイッチを作ろう！) says

pentatomid
If I sat on a hummingbird and asked it to hover while I took some pictures, the consequences would be quite sad.

152. Humming birds are however, severely handicapped in the task of putting out forest fires. Smokey was right; only we can prevent forest fires.

—————————————–

To a previous point, I can’t speak for Brownian but FFS I’m not dead, I even said I’d still be visiting TET occasionally. I just don’t find commenting on topics productive.

153. @Chigau

A friend and I wound up creating a fantasy setting and story we want to write in the midst of watching Legend of the Seeker…I now am tempted to include a druid that travels via a coat with many tassels and a flock of humming birds.

154. says

pentatomid
If I sat on a hummingbird and asked it to hover while I took some pictures, the consequences would be quite sad.

Bah, you just need a big enough hummingbird. Or just more hummingbirds and lots of string.

155. says

A friend and I wound up creating a fantasy setting and story we want to write in the midst of watching Legend of the Seeker…I now am tempted to include a druid that travels via a coat with many tassels and a flock of humming birds.

Cool. Reminds me of the pidgeon man in ‘Hey, Arnold!’.
In other bird related fiction, I once wrote a story about pirates in which the villain was accompanied by a talking kingfisher. The kingfisher was in fact a cursed wizard.

156. chigau (違う) says

Ing

I now am tempted to include a druid that travels via a coat with many tassels and a flock of humming birds.

That would take a buttload of humming birds.
(If that is the collective noun for humming birds.)

157. Nightjar says

All this talk about people being driven away and taking breaks reminds of something I’ve been meaning to ask for a while now: What happened to Algernon?

158. says

(If that is the collective noun for humming birds.)

It shall be from now on! I decree it to be so!

159. @Chigau

Perhaps…or a deal with a Hummingbird god/spirit!

160. chigau (違う) says

Now I’m picturing a buttload of hummingbirds all connected to the same wizard.
He’d be torn to shreds!

161. says

So, Pat Buchanan has said something stupid …. again. But this time he really revealed his white supremacist mindset. Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone covered the story:

So the Mad Hatter of the American conservatism, Pat Buchanan, wrote a piece today called “In the Long Run, is the GOP Dead?” It’s basically a fatalistic prediction that the GOP is doomed because it can’t promise enough free lunches for the inexorably rising percentage of nonwhite voters. And there’s a line in there that I hope he clarifies, because it seemed crazy even for him.

The piece starts off by looking at California as a test case…

…But then he switches to demographics… “When you look at the population growth,” says GOP consultant Steve Schmidt, “the actual party is shrinking. It’s becoming more white. It’s becoming older.”

Buchanan then goes on:

Consider ethnicity. Hispanics were 15 percent of the U.S. population in 2008 and 7.4 percent of the electorate. Both percentages will inexorably rise.

Yet in their best years, like 2004, Republicans lose the Hispanic vote 3-to-2. In bad years, like 2008, they lose it 2-to-1. Whites are already a minority in California, and Hispanics will eventually become the majority.

Say goodbye to the Golden Land….

He’s staked out this very territory before, in his last book, which hilariously had a chapter entitled, “The End of White America.”

That amazing work contained lines like, “Whites may discover what it is like to ride in the back of the bus,” …

Buchanan’s mind is clearly ripening quickly and it’s been ages since he mattered in the Republican party, but this is pretty crazy stuff, even by his standards.

162. Sili says

What happened to Algernon?

I believe The Walton™ has her chained to his stoop, so he won’t get lonely.

163. ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ says

No, Walton is back in the UK.

164. Sili says

That would take a buttload of humming birds.
(If that is the collective noun for humming birds.)

More likely a “harmony” or a “buzz”.

165. says

I believe The Walton™ has her chained to his stoop, so he won’t get lonely.

Uhm… Huh?

166. Sili says

No, Walton is back in the UK.

I know. Even if he was still Stateside, I sincerely doubt that he’d be the type to literally chain up anyone.

167. chigau (違う) says

Did someone release the take-everything-literally gas?

168. Josh #136 (and by extension Louis #40):

This. I couldn’t quite articulate it so thankfully you did. A style of approach (coming from any commenter)that refuses to recognize the ordinary convention of extending good faith to those who have demonstrated they deserve it (for years, sometimes) enrages people. It certainly does me. That doesn’t mean friends get a pass for being douches. But it does mean that if you signal aggression more appropriate to an unknown and potentially dangerous/awful person it’s going to make your friends hate you.

Very few of us are Straw Vulcans. This is a normal part of most human emotion and it’s not going to go away. (David M—I know you often don’t get this and don’t experience it the same way, so please don’t lecture about it OK?).

Thank you very much. This is what I’ve been trying to express as well. It’s very similar to how my family (mainly my mother) treated me — no matter how old I got, I never developed any real credit; every single mistake I made was filed away for later reference, as some example of how I was undeserving of equal treatment. I was being yelled at and lectured to like a five year old when I was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen FFS!

And this weighed on me hard. It’s made me forever unconfident. It’s made me think that no one is going to give me credit, that any mistake I make is a failure, a crime. I’m trying to fight this as hard as I can, because it makes it harder for me to actually work through and learn from mistakes.

So when sgbm goes off on his relentless assume intent, everyone-must-be-a-straw-Vulcan kick, I feel like I’m dealing with my fucking mother. And regardless of whether he’s right, I’m going to want to fight him like hell because he’s treating me like a total idiot and a troll because I fucked up once. This hurts — and it makes me seriously not want to be here, because it means I have to watch my every fucking step ten times over and hope I don’t accidentally step over a line lest SGBM start beating me with a rhetorical sledgehammer.

The problem isn’t that he’s right, it’s that no matter who is wrong he starts screaming at them as if they started pissing all over the rug when they really just zoned out for a minute and walked into the wrong bathroom.

169. chigau #171:

Did someone release the take-everything-literally gas?

er…shit…I forgot that today was my turn to watch the pressure on that and went to a pro-choice demonstration instead…

170. says

Did someone release the take-everything-literally gas?

Oh, is that what that canister was? Oops.

171. ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ says

Setar, why are you spoiling the lounge?

172. Hairhead, whose head is entirely filled with Too Much Stuff says

@Setar

So when sgbm goes off on his relentless assume intent, everyone-must-be-a-straw-Vulcan kick, I feel like I’m dealing with my fucking mother. And regardless of whether he’s right, I’m going to want to fight him like hell because he’s treating me like a total idiot and a troll because I fucked up once. This hurts — and it makes me seriously not want to be here, because it means I have to watch my every fucking step ten times over and hope I don’t accidentally step over a line lest SGBM start beating me with a rhetorical sledgehammer.

The problem isn’t that he’s right, it’s that no matter who is wrong he starts screaming at them as if they started pissing all over the rug when they really just zoned out for a minute and walked into the wrong bathroom.

THIS. THIS. THIS.

Several times I have had to leave Pharyngula because SGBM etc. has been infecting (and I mean that) more than one thread, ranting and disrupting. Even though I wasn’t a target of his harassment (I made it a point never to engage him in conversation), it was so triggering for me to read or even pass by his stuff, that I would leave.

Those who like sbgm, fine, go set up your own blogsite, invite him and read his dozens of repetitive, accusatory posts to your heart’s delight.

173. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

I just want to weigh in on one thing:

I fully agree that the -tard thing is ableist and shouldn’t be used.

I have nothing else really useful to add that others haven’t already said and don’t feel like contributing to the latest SG ‘derail’. I am mighty tired of this repetitive shit though.

174. chigau (違う) says

Now you really do appear to be asking for it.

175. says

Okay, I’ve got this song stuck in my head. I don’t even like that song.
Damn, get out of my head.

176. says

Chigau… Yikes! Uhm… Not good!

177. ChasCPeterson says

Those who like sbgm, fine, go set up your own blogsite, invite him and read his dozens of repetitive, accusatory posts to your heart’s delight.

alternatively, of course, Hairhead, you could set up your own blogsite and not invite him.

Because–what’s your all-caps-3x-THIS problem with him, anyway? It’s a tone thing? He reminds you of your mother?

shall we page Prof. Freud?

178. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

Jebus.

That isn’t good.

179. chigau (違う) says

Having fun, sven?

180. says

181. A. R says

Confirmed Ebola outbreak in Uganda. Looks like the Sudan strain. A. R is going to disappear for a day or two.

182. ChasCPeterson says

nah, not really.
Guess I’ll get a pint instead.

183. chigau (違う) says

A. R
Take care.

184. In light of new developments, I am hereby withdrawing from Pharyngula comments, with the sole exception of stomping chewtoys if I get bored, until further notice.

I’ve been frequenting Greta’s, Almost Diamonds, Butterflies and Wheels and Lousy Canuck a lot more lately anyway. Those of you who don’t know me on FB can find me there.

See you. And to anyone who wants to pull false equivalence over what SG is doing (you know who you are, you’re commenting passive-aggressively about me in TZT already even though we’ve never really even interacted), fuck you.

185. cm's changeable moniker says

Setár

So when sgbm goes off on his relentless assume intent, everyone-must-be-a-straw-Vulcan kick, I feel like I’m dealing with my fucking mother. And regardless of whether he’s right, I’m going to want to fight him like hell because he’s treating me like a total idiot and a troll because I fucked up once. This hurts [...]

(My emphasis.)

But, for an aspiring-rationalist community, do you not see how this would be unhelpful?

186. says

Setár,

Take care.

Damn, Pharyngula is going to be empty the next couple of days…

187. cm's changeable moniker says

FTR, that was before I saw #190. You’ll have to trust me on that.

188. says

People don’t need to leave. I’m taking a break from the comments, but I’m sure this will only lead to a happy new world of excitement, free of my interference.

Articles will continue to appear. There will be things to fight over, as always. You know how many of you take breaks from this stuff when it gets too stressful — I spend an hour or two a day every day cleaning up the messes, and have been doing this for nearly a decade. I get a break, too.

Count me among the many here who are leaving, thanks to both the recent developments here, and ixchel’s relentless honesty and consistency being a consistently shitty, bullying asshole, even on the few points he’s not full of shit about.

I loved this place, it was one of the few places I felt happy and safe to comment, but no longer. I may be back at some point.

190. says

PZ,
Yes, you do deserve a break. I think I can safely say most of us understand and respect that. You do what makes you feel comfortable.
I don’t know about the ‘happy new world’ though, but we’ll see.

Take care.

191. chigau (違う) says

I’m not going anywhere.
I know about “care and maintenance”.

192. says

I’m staying too. For now at least.

193. cm's changeable moniker says

If you’re in a coalition and you’re comfortable, you know it’s not a broad enough coalition.

(thanks to Ms Daisy Cutter)

194. Louis says

Everyone, especially PZ, taking breaks, enjoy yourselves. Help yourselves to a beverage of choice, smoke a fat one, have a bacon/vegan substitute sandwich and brown sauce…go on, you’ll be amazed how happy it makes you…and come back refreshed and relaxed.

All the very best.

Louis

195. Louis says

Chigau,

Did someone release the take-everything-literally gas?

There is a gas that causes people to take everything literally? I would very much like to know the formula and synthesis for this gas. It must be very useful.

Louis

196. chigau (違う) says

Louis
In this case, since we cannot actually transmit gas by USB, perhaps it is really a configuration of electrons that causes take-everything-literally.

197. Louis says

Chigau,

Hmm yes, your hypothesis would make sense. I propose a paper: Configurations of electrons, their couplings with photons emitted from radiant visualisation devices, and subsequent neurological control.

Also, your hidden “bloodbath” comment at The Other Place…I agree. There’s gonna be spadework aplenty over here. I predict certain people from certain groups will make life…interesting.

Louis

198. , Audleyit used to make anti-choicers heads asplode that one of the main advocates for the nationwide access to safe, legal abortion in Canada had eight children and was a cosy old grandmother.

199. broboxley OT says

200. I can’t stand SGBM, but I killfiled him and his posts have never bothered me since. I am truly asking a question and not criticizing when I say, if SG bugs you a lot why not hit the killfile button? Why is that not a solution?

201. hotshoe says

Setár

So when sgbm goes off on his relentless assume intent, everyone-must-be-a-straw-Vulcan kick, I feel like I’m dealing with my fucking mother. And regardless of whether he’s right, I’m going to want to fight him like hell because he’s treating me like a total idiot and a troll because I fucked up once. This hurts [...]

(My emphasis.)

But, for an aspiring-rationalist community, do you not see how this would be unhelpful?

I can see where it’s helpful. I don’t know why you can’t. I certainly don’t know why you thought it would be “helpful” to take a poke at Setár for it.

Fuck off, you supercilious shithead. Genuinely, just fuck off. That was so uncalled for that you should exile yourself for weeks, or permanently.

202. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

WTF. Emotions matter. Lived experiences matter. Is being “right,” according to your fucking theories more important than not hurting people, than not shouting over people?

Fuck!

Emotions are what make us human.

203. FFS people TZT.

————————

Did someone release the take-everything-literally gas?

What? Why would you ask such a thing? I doubt such a gas even exists! Why would you think such a gas exists? Furthermore how would it spread across the internets!?

204. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

“Pipe down, little woman, your emotions are getting ahead of you. Us men are going to – calmly, rationally – discuss your value as a person.”

Seriously, am I the only one who sees that parallel?!

205. Louis says

Esteleth,

No, you’re not.

Louis

206. Akira Mackenzie, that sounds like “Why radio is better than television.”

STAN FREBERG: Look, you can do things on radio you couldn’t possibly do on TV.

FREES: That’ll be the day.

FREBERG: All right, watch this! Ahem, okay people, now when I give you the cue, I want the 700 foot mountain of whipped cream to roll into Lake Michigan, which has been drained and filled with hot chocolate. Then the Royal Canadian Air Force will fly overhead towing a 10-tom maraschino cherry, which will be dropped into the whipped cream to the cheering of 25,000 extras. All right–cue the mountain! *sploosh*

Cue the Air Force! *vroom*

Cue the maraschino cherry! *plop*

Okay, 25,000 Cheering Extras! *wild cheers, which end abruptly*

Now, you want to try that on television?

FREES: Well…

FREBERG: You see, radio is a very special medium, because it stretches the imagination.

FREES: But doesn’t television stretch the imagination?

FREBERG: Up to 27 inches, yes.

207. There’s also parallels to “You’re right but I don’t like your tone”. Either way TZT, please. We are dangerously low on recipes here!

208. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

(BTW, I’m glad to see you again, Ing)

209. I did say I would be in the TET, as it provides amusement and I like to pick the horde’s hivemind on random brain farts

210. says

Well, that’s it. I’m off to bed. See you all (well… Uhm… yeah…) tomorrow.

211. Audley, my least favorite things were not being able to take a full breath for the last few months and not being able to eat more than a cup of food without feeling full. However, it’s temporary. And then there’s feeling sort of like a ticking time-bomb: you know it has to come out sometime, somehow. Just thank luck and science you were born on the right continent. Do all the prenatal checkups and all will be well.

212. thunk (Фарингюловская Народная Республика) says

G’nite Pentatomid.

And hello everyone else.

8 days to curiosity landing. SQUEEE!!!

213. A. R says

Recipes? How about this one (yes, I did have to get in a bit of snark before I lock myself in my lab to wait for the GP gene sequence for the Uganda outbreak strain to be posted):

Emergency structure decontamination:

Take fifteen liters of formaldehyde, pour into several electric frying pans. Place in structure to be decontaminated, hook up to sealed generators. Seal building with duct tape. Turn on generators remotely. Wait two days. Enter in sterile bio-hazard suits, swab everything. Culture to confirm sterilization.

214. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

shredded beef with charred poblanos
pintos in spicy broth
cooked salsa spiked with arbol peppers
corn tortillas
grape tomatoes from the garden

215. A. R says

^ Alternatively, substitute a few kilograms of paraformaldahyde flakes for the liquid formaldehyde.

216. Louis says

Good choice of kill-everything-that-moves-aldehyde, A.R..

Louis

P.S. I would be happy to eat Josh’s recipe, but happier to have yours in a lab. I can has equal hugs for all?

217. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

Paraformaldehyde flakes? Fascinating.

218. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

Louis, all my recipes are belong to you. Any time.

219. broboxley OT says

A.R. wouldnt hosing all surfaces down with concentrated chlorine have the same effect? wondering…

220. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

Srsly tho. This is why I need a husband—what man wouldn’t want to come home to that kind of meal?

221. says

Which reminds me that I have to make a couple of liters this week myself.

222. A. R says

broboxley OT: Nope, you need a gas to get into every possible crevice. Chlorine is great for “Holy fucking shit that gut just spewed his alimentary epithelia all over the room” situations, and when the area is still needed (and being used by people in some level of bio-hazard gear), and will likely become re-contaminated in the near future.

223. A. R says

replace “gut” with “guy” in my 228.

224. broboxley OT says

A.R. thanks, didnt think about the gas effect.

225. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

I dunno PZ. I’m ignorant of this stuff. The fact that something -aldehyde comes in flakes just struck my fancy. I’m designing a cereal box in my head.

226. A. R says

Can anyone get these articles for me in pdf? Linky 1 Linky 2. For some reason, I can’t access them through my University Library. Thanks in advance!

227. broboxley OT says

PZ I understand you know a wee bit about fish. With the information you (or others) have about the sight receptors of the eyes of the zebra fish, how difficult would it be to use that information to design a camera that would take video of how the world looks to them? Or has that been done already?

228. cm's changeable moniker says

hotshoe?

I can see where it’s helpful. I don’t know why you can’t. I certainly don’t know why you thought it would be “helpful”

I said it was un-helpful. HTH.

229. Louis says

Josh,

These are really, REALLY not tasty flakes. Think: exciting cancers, extreme toxicity, environmental damage!

Hard to sell those to kids…

Louis

230. says

Can’t be done. Eyes are not cameras.

Also, most have more kinds of photoreceptors than we do. Could you design a camera that would show a colorblind person what the world looks like to a trichromat?

231. says

Cancers? I think the lethal toxicity would kill you first.

Hey, let’s talk bout something cheerier. Osmium tetroxide!

232. A. R says

PZ: Ummm, I’m starting to wonder if raj wore off on you. [runs away quickly]

233. A. R says

PZ: I call your Osmium tetroxide, and raise you Botulinum toxin!

234. chigau (違う) says

whatever the folks in the kitchen have made.
(notes that the vegetarians are looking peaked and the vegans seem to be um gone)

235. Louis says

Pfffff OsTet! That is a toy for children (although it’s {ahem} “very good for eyesight” {cough} {splutter}).

I see your OsTet and raise you MOLYBDENUM HEXACARBONYL!

Louis

236. says

A.R.
I apparantly have access to both papers. If you give me an email address I’ll send them to you.

237. Louis says

Night all, I have a wife calling me.

Louis

238. A. R says

239. cm's changeable moniker says

Emotions matter. Lived experiences matter. Is being “right,” according to your fucking theories more important than not hurting people, than not shouting over people?

Fuck!

Emotions are what make us human.

True. But evidence through experiment is what makes us scientists.

240. says

A.R.
Alrighty, I’ve just sent them.

241. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

But evidence through experiment is what makes us scientists.

Please don’t do this. Not all of life is a science experiment. Please don’t straw-Vulcan.

242. broboxley OT says

PZ sure, but they wouldn’t see the colors. I was thinking more in the way of form, depth and shape fields

243. A. R says

pentatomid: Thanks! Now I can pseudo-work until the sequence comes in. (unfortunately, since I’m very, very low on the priority list, that could be a day or two, according to the e–mail I just got.)

244. says

Now I really am off to bed. Goodnight all.

245. Sili says

A. R

Can anyone get these articles for me in pdf? Linky 1 Linky 2. For some reason, I can’t access them through my University Library. Thanks in advance!

Apparently, yes. Where do you want them?

It appears that two of the portals for electronic magazines don’t have the most recent year. Have you checked if your library has more than one subscription? I got through on “Wolters Kluwer / Ovid”

246. Sili says

Nevermind.

247. A. R says

Sili: pentatomid was able to procure copies for me, but I will take a look for future reference. Thanks!

248. drbunsen, le savant fous says

Crosspost from TZT with amendments re PZ’s comments here.

PZ:

I’m done.

I won’t be monitoring or in any way policing any of the comment threads around here for a while.

Well, this is about the worst possible outcome.

Right now, FtB as a whole is a target for the very worst the bowels of the internet have to offer. No sheriff = no safe space.

I’m out. I’ll check in again later to see if obsessive self-appointed Inquisitors still have the run of the yard.

I’m taking a break from the comments / You know how many of you take breaks from this stuff when it gets too stressful — I spend an hour or two a day every day cleaning up the messes, and have been doing this for nearly a decade. I get a break, too.

Entirely fair enough, PZ. Enjoy your break.

249. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

Mmmm, always grateful for recommendations on hot sauces to try.

250. Sili says

I see your OsTet and raise you MOLYBDENUM HEXACARBONYL!

Why go so high? What do you have against $Cr(CO)_6$ or just $Ni(CO)_4$?

(Fuck italics!)

251. cm's changeable moniker says

Josh, I do hear you, but …

“Pipe down, little woman, your emotions are getting ahead of you. Us men are going to – calmly, rationally – discuss your value as a person.”

Seriously, am I the only one who sees that parallel?!

I, very deliberately, did not say woman. I said: “your emotions are clouding your rationalism”. And I stand by that statement … I acknowlege people’s emotions … but, we have to try to stay rational.

252. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

Recipe? Here’s one that I use regularly a work:

200 mg calcium chloride, anhydrous
100 μg iron (III) nitrate
9.77 mg magnesium sulfate, anhydrous
400 mg potassium chloride
1.5 g sodium bicarbonate
6.4 g sodium chloride
125 mg sodium dihydrogen phosphae
84 mg L-arginine
62.6 mg L-cystine
584 mg L-glutamine
30 mg glycine
42 mg L-histidine
105 mg L-leucine
146 mg L-lysine
30 mg L-methionine
66 mg L-phenylalanine
42 mg L-serine
95 mg L-threonine
16 mg L-tryptophan
103.79 mg L-tyrosine
94 mg L-valine
4 mg choline chloride
4 mg folic acid
7.2 mg myo-inositol
4 mg nicotinamide
4 mg d-pantothenic acid
4 mg pyridoxine
4 mg riboflavin
4 mg thiamine
4.5 g d-glucose
14 mg phenol red, sodium salt
110 mg sodium pyruvate
100 mL fetal bovine serum
DI water to 1 L.

(filter sterilized, of course)

Gotta love Dr. Dulbecco.

253. A. R says

Esteleth: Hmmm, Unless I’m mistaken, that’s a rather interesting recipe for a cell culture media. Mind if I steal it?

254. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

A.R., that’s DMEM.

255. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

Which is to say, sure you can steal it. You can also buy it, pre-packaged (though usually minus the FBS and L-glutamine) from about 10 different companies.

256. broboxley OT says

257. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

cm, #260—perhaps it’s getting a bit meta. I didn’t make the comment you refer to in 260.

258. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

And in any case, cm, I’m the one you quoted there.

No microbes, broboxley. I usually add gentamicin as well.

259. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

FWIW I am so not a chemist that I can’t even bake and this is why I don’t feel too bad about that.

Pretty sure it’s been mentioned here before, but needs repeating for the sheer heebiness of it.

{hmmm, comment lost is spam trap or just an inability to hit the right button?)

260. FossilFishy (Νεοπτόλεμος's spellchecker) says

[third time's the charm?]

FWIW I am so not a chemist that I can’t even bake and this is why I don’t feel too bad about that.

Pretty sure it’s been mentioned here before, but needs repeating for the sheer heebiness of it.

261. A. R says

Esteleth: Argh!!!!!! I misread some of your numbers, which made me think you had invented some bizarre new culture media. I’ve got two or three gallons of Dr. Dulbecco’s in my lab right now! [self facepalm for good measure]

262. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

:D

It is possible I mistyped some of them, A.R.

In any case, I mostly use 1:1 DMEM:F12.

263. Ok fuck all your bickering. I was going to check in on TET, but apparently I’m not ‘flouncing’ properly.

264. A. R says

Esteleth: Leukocyte culture seems to work best for me with 1:1 DMEM:F12 supplemented with additional FBS (amount varies by cell type and the protocol)

265. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

Ah, leukocytes? I work with stem cells, and I’ve found that starting with DMEM/F12 and adding PDGF and some other stuff works well.

266. A. R says

Esteleth: Yep, freshly extracted ones at that. Damned hard to keep alive for any length of time.

267. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

You try keeping P0 stem cells going!

268. Antiochus Epiphanes says

OT, but since you are here, Esteleth:

I enjoyed your commentary in last nights podcast.

269. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

Thanks, Antiochus! Do you think I said “fuck” enough?

BTW, I am preparing a transcript of it. Mostly because I’m anal like that. If anyone wants it, let me know.

270. John Morales says

cm:

I acknowlege people’s emotions … but, we have to try to stay rational.

Nah. We don’t have to.

271. Antiochus Epiphanes says

Esteleth: just the right amount. I sure would like a copy of the transcript. I can be found on the PET.

272. A. R says

Esteleth: Sounds like fun work. From a quick Googling, I’m willing to bet that some fundie or other would go batshit over it. Granted, they hear stem cell, and automatically think “BAAAAYYYYYYBEEEEEE!!!” without thinking about the thousands of types of stem cell that aren’t embryonic)

273. broboxley OT says

A.R. the problem with stem cell is the stem part of the name, it makes fundies start fapping. If it was called blank slate cell I doubt we would be having as much issues with it.

274. If Aquaria saying “Christards” is that big of an issue, let her know it bothers you, explain why, and if she still won’t self-censor, killfile her ass.

if this were the way we behaved back when “bitch”, “cunt”, etc. were still common parlance at Pharyngula, we’d have never gotten rid of those words. Instead, plenty of Pharyngulite regulars (including myself) would be in killfiles and still contributing to sexist culture via sexist language. But I guess now that it’s no longer about an axis of oppression that affects many Pharyngulites personally, the rules get changed.

suit yourself. I’m officially out of fucks to give about whether this community actually lives up to the standards it purports to hold.

275. A. R says

broboxley OT: Very true. Perhaps we scientists should discretely change the name to something else, like Originator cell.

276. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

TBH, that’s sort of happening. Progenitor cell.

Though what’s actually happening is a narrowing of the definition of “stem cell.” And the stuff that falls outside of it is getting labelled as a progenitor.

277. John Morales says

Personally, I think this place was better before it became sanctimonious.

278. hotshoe says

Srsly tho. This is why I need a husband—what man wouldn’t want to come home to that kind of meal?

Or woman, either. Sounds yummy and very nourishing.

God, I wish I had your energy when it comes to preparing food. Dinner tonight is going to be (frozen) chicken chow mein stir-fried with some chopped cabbage. Eat to live, not live to eat – that’s what I tell myself. Gaahh.

279. drbunsen, le savant fous says

FTR, I’ve already taken one six month long hiatus from reading or commenting as a direct result of ixchel/pitbull/SGBM’s behaviour. Just before the changeover to FtB.
/resumes not being here

280. Amblebury says

I’m going timidly put my hand up and say that while I very much admire ixchel’s intelligence and hard work, while he’s often funny, and generous with his knowledge and expertise I very frequently don’t comment because:

A/ There’s a scrap going on.

B/ I’m frightened of being targeted if I say something silly.

Also, I missed Louis again. Arse. there’s nothing as much fun as Patricia/Lyn M/Louis folderol.

Also, while I’m being honest, I may as well say I have long held a ginourmous nerd crush on ‘Tis Himself. But there’s probably a queue for that too. Damn you all and your social mores.

281. broboxley OT says

chicken chow mein made from scratch is as quick as frozen and not as soggy
Keep some ginger paste around to mix with garlic and soy sauce along with 5 spice. Instant asian food.

282. ibyea says

@Ing
Wasn’t it just Chas saying that? Personally, I welcome you not sticking the flounce. :)

Also, Jadehawk is right about Aquaria. As much as I love his/her ranting, we did agree that certain words were harmful, and we wouldn’t use it here.

283. ibyea says

Is there a way to seperate two paragraphs conveniently? My second paragraph above was for no one in particular.

284. chigau (違う) says

ibyea
I usually do this
——
or this
+++++

285. I love TET sometimes. I used to love it a lot and participate quite a bit. But it’s really hard for me to keep up with it. But the repeated flame-outs are too much. So I’m giving up. This is my last flounce from TET. I’ll appear in other threads from time to time, but I no longer consider myself a regular.

286. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

Argh. The search function sucks ass.

People over in TZT are discussing an old thread on Christian misogyny, and I’m having trouble finding it. Does anyone have a link handy?

287. hotshoe says

hotshoe?

I can see where it’s helpful. I don’t know why you can’t. I certainly don’t know why you thought it would be “helpful”

I said it was un-helpful. HTH.

Jesus christ, are you always this stupid ?

Setar said stuff.
You popped in to poke at Setár with a question about that stuff being unhelpful.

[you don't value emotional stuff and you demand rational stuff]

I said, Setár’s post is helpful – that ‘s the two entences you quote correctly.

Then I wondered why you rationalize your own conduct of poking Setar as being helpful in this case – that’s the part of my quote you fucked up, you goddamn dumbass:

I certainly don’t know why you thought it would be “helpful” to take a poke at Setár for it.

Yeah, I sure Hope. That. Fucking. Helps.

288. hotshoe says

chicken chow mein made from scratch is as quick as frozen and not as soggy
Keep some ginger paste around to mix with garlic and soy sauce along with 5 spice. Instant asian food.

Oh, definitely better, but really not easier from scratch. Chopping some chicken … and washing the cutting board … and chopping some more vegetables … and boiling the noodles … unless I had already gone shopping and bought “fresh” noodles from the refrigerator case that don’t need to be cooked before stirfrying … which are also more expensive, around here …

But I’ll think of you some night when I have the energy and money to do “instant Asian” in the right spirit, and I will enjoy it so much more than premixed frozen.

289. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

hotshoe:

God, I wish I had your energy when it comes to preparing food.

That’s the thing; for me it’s recreation. It gets me away from work and away from the computer. I can spend hours in the kitchen and zone out. I have this luxury because (as my mother notes) I don’t have to do it every day for 20 years to feed a family.

Substitute your own winding-down activity for it: Knitting (which I need to pick back up!), painting, gardening, etc.

290. ibyea says

@Esteleth
Yeah, I tried searching for comments in the search thingy, and I couldn’t do it, first of all. And even if you are only looking for articles, it still gives you crap results.

291. hotshoe says

I’d have a lot more time for everything if I weren’t on a knitting binge lately. I’ve finished four or five pairs of socks this summer.

I’ve found that I can knit pretty well while reading threads. Right hand lets go of needle every few stitches to scroll down – has to be something small and uncomplicated to knit, though, or I can’t do it by feel while my eyes (and mind) are on the screen.

292. Amblebury says

I should add that when I say:

There’s a scrap going on

I don’t mean conflict per se makes me clutch my pearls and swoon. I mean tedious, relentless, split ever-finer sections of the hair conflict. Conflict that seems to be motivated solely by a drive to submission, regardless of any useful, justifiable initial clarification or correction that initiated it.

There’s something about that style that goes beyond being exasperating and tedious and becomes frightening. That’s probably why people leave rather than engage with it.

293. thunk (Фарингюловская Народная Республика) says

Gah.

Got vaccinated yesterday.

Now I feel like crap.

*silently repeats “correlation is not causation” to xerself*

294. hotshoe says

Changed my mind about dinner. Too late to cook even frozen entree.

French bread, cream cheese, greek black olives. Oh, and leftover steamed cauliflower, chilled, with sriracha. Cranberry juice first and cheap cheap red wine second.

295. Well, catching up on all this conflict has been extremely sad. It kind of makes me glad that I’ve been too busy to read and comment here much lately. It really sucks because Pharyngula (particularly TET) was the first place to make me feel like part of a community. Now I just feel… sad. I’m not even frustrated, just sad.

296. hotshoe says

Gah.

Got vaccinated yesterday.

Now I feel like crap.

*silently repeats “correlation is not causation” to xerself*

Well, it probably is causation, isn’t it ? I mean, whatever crap you’re feeling is probably caused (as a side-effect) by the vaccine.

Common side effects of Tdap are nausea, fever, aches, and fatigue.

Is it anything more serious than that ? I hope not!

297. says

PZ:

I’m turning you all loose. Gouge, kick, and slash each other, or achieve some sort of stable equilibrium — but don’t pester me to ban anyone, clean up any messes, or fix any bad edits, I’m leaving the comments section all to you.

I really think that could go bad real quick. How about outsourcing the thread patrolling to someone(wouldn’t have to be regulars necessarily) for a couple bucks?

298. ibyea says

@thunk
I hope you feel better soon.

299. thunk (Фарингюловская Народная Республика) says

Hotshoe:

Common side effects of Tdap are nausea, fever, aches, and fatigue.

Is it anything more serious than that ? I hope not!

The last three, but nothing more serious.

300. thunk (Фарингюловская Народная Республика) says

Rorschach: Outside of tomorrow, I have nothing better to do. :p

301. thunk (Фарингюловская Народная Республика) says

in re my nym:

Is anyone else bothered by the fact that this button is unreadable?

302. dianne says

thunk @301: Some people have bad reactions to vaccines. That’s why it’s imperative for people who can get vaccinated safely to do so.

Your reaction sounds like one of the ones that will be gone tomorrow, if it is even really a vaccine reaction. Hope you feel better soon!

303. thunk (Фарингюловская Народная Республика) says

Dianne:

Thanks!

It’s better than falling ill to the actual disease.

304. Nutmeg says

David M:

Basically, I’m using gene expression to look at the evolution and speciation of [critters]. Evolution is not a popular topic with many Mennonites. But I decided to be honest about my research anyway, because weddings make me cranky. Nobody freaked out. It’s almost too bad – a discussion with a creationist would have been preferable to hiding in the hallway to avoid dancing.

Psych-Oh

On a completely unrelated topic, I am watching a good friend lose a lot of friends over the whole Chic-fil-a drama. I guess his Christian friends can only be his friend if he is gay without being GAY. I feel bad for him, on one hand, but I guess now he can see who his friends really are. I think I’m going to go see him tonight. Is anyone else seeing this happen as well?

That really sucks for your friend, and I hope your support encourages him. I was pleasantly surprised to find that all of my labmates were shocked and disgusted with Chick-Fil-A’s support of homophobic organizations.

Sili:

it’s a Mennonite/Catholic wedding

How does that work?

The bride is Mennonite, the groom is Catholic. They were married by a United minister in a Mennonite church. I don’t even know what to classify that as. Lots of conservative relatives, the service contained hymns and Bible readings but no communion, and there was dancing at the reception.

TLC! Hi! Done anything outdoorsy lately? I’ve been stuck in the city for a couple of weekends and I’m itching to get outside, even if only vicariously.

305. Owlmirror says

Behold!

The stars are right! The comments are loaded! (Through March 13, 2009)

It rises!

It is awake again . . . !!

☞ ! ! ! ! A Thread Is Spawned ! ! ! ! ☜

I wish to submit a bug report.

The CSS for Sb Pharyngula is terrible. Who the hell thinks that light gray text on white background is a good idea? Who loves the default tiny, tiny font? Why are blockquotes in italic? Please, fix this!

Can comment line numbering be turned on? I think it’s there, but has a display:none in the css.

The character set is screwed up. Who is David Marjanovi?? And all my hard-typed Hebrew is all “?????” Woe!

I notice that the blog title is “Just another site”. I think that’s the default for wordpress blogs. You can change this.

306. theophontes (坏蛋) says

@ Sili #112

That’s a beautiful loaf. How does one make those?

It is a sourdough loaf made from a wild strain of yeast and lactobacilli that Josh managed to cultivate. That got dried and shipped out to me in Hong Kong (and since to my cousin in Cape Town). The original was called Phoenicia (PBUH) and is the High Goddess of Pharyngula. I would be happy to post you some (theophontesathotmaildotcom).

More specifically: 2large cups white flour, 1cupwholewheat flour, 1cup filtered water,1capfull of olive oil, 1teaspoon salt, large dollop of Phoenicia (I would have to send you instructions with the culture).

Mix in large bowl and cover with damp cloth. Leave in warm (40 degrees C) place, like an oven, for at least 8 hours (Overnight is fine for brunch the next day). It will puff up like a large marshmallow. Empty onto floured surface and gently knead until no longer sticky. Place in cleaned bowl with some oats and roll about. Leave at 40 C for about 40 minutes. Roll again in oats, lame with sharp knife (or poke with stick) and drop into a Dutch oven that you have preheated in oven to 250 degrees C. Bake for 35 minutes with well fitting lid. Remove lid and return to oven for final 35 minutes. Leave at least an hour to cool on a rack. Enjoy! (It looks like a bit of a list above, but it is actually really easy.)

307. cicely (Confusion to the Innocent Bystanders! Full speed STRAIGHT UP!) says

Unsatisfying Gaming session.
:(

Anyone looking for a dose of CUTE?

*hugs* for Cipher. Fare well.

Confirmed Ebola outbreak in Uganda. Looks like the Sudan strain.

Awesome.

Just fuckin’ awesome.

I feel this massive depression coming on.
:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

*hugs* for Setár. Be well.

And I would offer *hugs* to Our Grand Squidmaster as well, but it feels…impertinant.

Seriously—have a nice break.

Okay; not up to date, but I’m out.
*dumping vast pile of hugs and well-wishes for the departing*
Later (whoever remains).
-

308. theophontes (坏蛋) says

@ rorschach

I really think that could go bad real quick. How about outsourcing the thread patrolling to someone(wouldn’t have to be regulars necessarily) for a couple bucks?

A better solution would be the “no gods, no masters, no policemen” route. We must ultimately (in the absence of Teh Poopyhead) be our own salvations. No ultimate form of control, but for our own self discipline. If anyone trolls, direct them – with a link – to TZT Simply do not respond to trolls anywhere but there. The same for blowouts between regulars. Just take it outside.

Extreme, but a lot like life.

309. Beatrice says

I don’t want to get involved in regulars’ fights, so my only contribution to this whole mess is that I feel a lot like StarStuff (as she wrote in #303):

It really sucks because Pharyngula (particularly TET) was the first place to make me feel like part of a community. Now I just feel… sad. I’m not even frustrated, just sad.

310. hotshoe says

Sorry, Beatrice.

311. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says

Nutmeg: Not a whole lot, except for the recent camping trip. I dunno if you saw a thread or three back but I had a pretty close bear encounter, released my pet snake back into the wild, and found several shed deer antlers.

We also brought the elderly golden retriever, the one with cancer in her forelimb. We were full of misgivings, but being out in the mountains again really perked her up. When we decided to leave due to another rainstorm building up, she limped off into the woods because she just didn’t want to go!

312. 'Tis Himself says

It’s necessary for me to leave Pharyngula. This is not a flounce. I shall return but not for a while.

313. John Morales says

(sigh)

Be well, Himself.

You’re one of my favourites, here.

314. says

It’s necessary for me to leave Pharyngula.

Better use your hiatus to comment more on my blog! You’re the last fucking commenter there who will write something without being threatened at gunpoint these days.
In other words, look after yourself, and come back when you feel ready. There’s more to life than the internet.

315. hotshoe says

It’s necessary for me to leave Pharyngula. This is not a flounce. I shall return but not for a while.

Oh, I am so sorry.

It’s awful, and I don’t know what else to say.

316. hotshoe says

And now I’m really crying. Time for bed. Maybe things will look more bearable in the morning.

317. John Morales says

“This too shall pass”

318. Nightjar says

What Owlmirror said @#315! I want the old Pharyngula to be pretty and to feel like home, and right now it does not. Needs fixing.

***

“This too shall pass”

I sure hope so.

319. chigau (違う) says

The best way to fix something is probably not to do nothing.

320. John Morales says

Doing the wrong thing is often worse than doing nothing.

321. ChasCPeterson says

apparently I’m not ‘flouncing’ properly.

Wasn’t it just Chas saying that?

No. It was not even “just Chas” saying that. FFS, learn to read for comprehension, people.

I said it was evidently difficult [for some people] to stay away from Pharyngula. I used myself and Ing as examples. No insult in there anywhere.

Again: please read for comprehension. And when you whine petulantly and passive-agressively about something somebody said elsewhere, get it right. Consider a direct quote or link.

322. ChasCPeterson says

uh but now I see that got dealt with already over there so never mind.

323. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

Here’s a nice roundup on issues with Chik-fil-a if anyone’s currently in arguments about that whole thing. It includes such gems as :

Chick-fil-A founder Truett Cathy openly admitted that he would probably fire any employee who “has been sinful or done something harmful to their family members.”

and from this story:

Honeycutt was terminated by Howard after meetings with restaurant management (during which she was not present), and was replaced by a male employee. The lawsuit cites a pattern of discrimination against female employees, who, after being terminated, were also replaced by male employees in Northern Georgia’s Chick-Fil-A restaurants.

324. Lyn M: dropping the f-bomb since 1962 ... of death says

Amblebury

I saw that comment of yours and I’m thinking of spamming all my friends with it, because I’m included in the same sentence as Louis, which I find flattering as all hell.

I managed to miss most people, too, today. But that might not be a bad thing I see as I read the thread.

It’s getting late here, so I probably missed you, too. But thanks for the mention!

325. One Thousand Needles says

It strikes me as ridiculous that Truett Cathy is more appalled by two men fucking than the slaughter of millions of chickens. Good ol’ biblical morality.

326. Pteryxx says

“Home is run no more.” – from WE3

Peace to y’all who are taking breaks, leaving, and/or undecided.

My 2c on all this: (rot13’d and crossposted to TZT)

Qvfphffvba bs zbqrengvat sbehzf pnzr hc n juvyr onpx ba Mina’f cynpr. Pbzzragf sebz gurer:

Naq V’z fgvyy fyvtugyl va fubpx gung n sbehz zbqrengbe unq qvforyvrs gung bar crefba pbhyq ehva na ragver sbehz. V’ir frra bar qrgrezvarq crefba ehva n sbehz gung unq gubhfnaqf bs hfref naq lrnef bs guernqf.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/06/10/doing-away-with-drama/#comment-89229

naq va ercyl gb gur fhttrfgvba gung onaf or cbfgrq jvgu qrgnvyrq fcrpvsvpf:

Gung jbhyq bayl jbex sbe gur ener pnfrf jurer crbcyr jrer onaarq sbe n fvatyr cbfg, vafgrnq bs sbe n jubyr cnggrea bs qrenvyzrag, fgbarjnyyvat naq ershfvat gb ratntr gubhtugshy erfcbafrf, onq snvgu nethzragf, ybnqrq dhrfgvbaf, rgp rgp. Lbh ernyyl arrq gb frr gur jubyr qvfehcgvir cnggrea orsber lbh pna haqrefgnaq jul gur ona unccrarq.

Naq senaxyl, vg’f gurfr cnggreaf bs orunivbe gung vf gur erny ceboyrz. Va gur pnfr bs gur fvatyr pbzzragf gung ner fb orlbaq gur cnyr gung gurl erfhyg va na vafgn-ona, vg vf hfhnyyl rnfl rabhtu sbe zbfg ivfvgbef gb haqrefgnaq jul gung jnf hanpprcgnoyr. Jung’f uneq vf gb fgbc gur gebyyf jub, yvxr fpubbylneq ohyyvrf, xabj rknpgyl ubj sne gurl pna tb jvgu rnpu vaqvivqhny vapvqrag gb znvagnva fbzr fbeg bs cynhfvoyr qravnovyvgl.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/2012/06/10/doing-away-with-drama/#comment-89352

Va nabgure cnenyyry, gurer’f n ernfba jul unenffzrag cbyvpvrf naq fgnyxvat qrsvavgvbaf vapyhqr ivpgvzf’ bja nffrffzragf bs gur fvghngvba NF RIVQRAPR. Vg rafherf gur cbyvpvrf pbire orunivbe gung ivbyngrf gur fcvevg bs gur ehyrf rira jura ab fcrpvsvp pyrne-phg genafterffvbaf pna or cebivqrq.

Fb jura gurer’f na boivbhf cnggrea bs pbzcynvagf nobhg gur orunivbe bs na vaqvivqhny, gur rkvfgrapr bs n cnggrea VF rivqrapr va naq bs vgfrys. Guvf vf n pbzzhavgl shyy bs ybhq, pbzongvir, ubarfg crbcyr. Gurl ebhgvaryl qvfphff vasynzzngbel gbcvpf naq pnyy rnpu bgure bhg ba rirelguvat sebz snpghny reebef gb vafrafvgvivgl. Naq fbzrubj, zbfg bs gur gvzr, guvf qbrf abg erfhyg va qbhoyr-qvtvgf bs erthynef srryvat onqyl gerngrq naq univat gb gnxr yrnir, rkprcg qvfcebcbegvbangryl jurer guvf vaqvivqhny vf vaibyirq. Bgure sbyxf znantr nyy gur gvzr gb pnyy bhg qvfubarfgl naq onq-snvgu nethvat, pbeerpg rnpu bgure, cbvag bhg ovtbgrq guvaxvat naq rira rfcbhfr havdhr naq hacbchyne cbvagf bs ivrj jvgubhg qbvat guvf zhpu qnzntr.

Gung’f jul V qba’g npprcg gur ulcbgurfvf gung bar vaqvivqhny’f orunivbe, vs orvat ZRERYL naq NCCEBCEVNGRYL crefvfgrag, ubarfg, naq pbzongvir, fgvyy pnhfrf n jubyr pbzzhavgl-shyy bs gur zbfg sbeguevtug, ubarfg, crefvfgrag, pbzongvir, naq nyfb pbzcnffvbangr, bcra-zvaqrq, naq ohyyfuvg-vagbyrenag vaqvivqhnyf V’ir rire frra, gb fbzrubj orpbzr qvfubarfg, gevony, ovnfrq naq jungrire ryfr FCRPVSVPNYYL JURER GUVF VAQVIVQHNY VF VAIBYIRQ. Gurfr fnzr crbcyr, vaqvivqhnyyl naq pbyyrpgviryl, nppbeq fbzr qrterr bs pbafvqrengvba gb hacbchyne ivrjf bs nffubyrf, gebyyf, fgenatref, erthynef, naq rarzvrf nyvxr. Vg’f abg ernfbanoyr gb nffhzr hapunenpgrevfgvp orunivbe ba gur cneg bs zhygvcyr vaqvivqhnyf jura bar crefba – abg bar cevapvcyr, gbcvp, punenpgrevfgvp, be vffhr, bar CREFBA – vf gur pbzzba snpgbe. Vg’f ernfbanoyr gb fhfcrpg gung gur vaqvivqhny’f orunivbe vf n znwbe pbagevohgvat snpgbe, naq vg’f snve gb rkcrpg gung crefba gb punatr gur orunivbe.

Fubegre fnlvat: vs ybgf bs crbcyr xrrc univat ceboyrzf jvgu lbh, znlor gur ceboyrz vf lbh naq abg gurz.

(Caps used for emphasis because rot13 messed up my italics tags.)

327. Ogvorbis says

Good morning. Happy Friday.

Dinner last night was some fresh bratwurst, roasted red potatoes, and sauerkraut. With some nice summer ale.

I really hoped that remembering what happened would at least cause a dent in the frequency of dreams and panic attacks. It still may. I hope so.

Humming birds can also drink nectar! Helicopters cannot!

True, but helicopters can drink from pumpkins full of slurry.

Indeed, and while doing so they pollinate flowers. Have you evevr seen a helicopter pollinate a flower? Didn’t think so.

A helicopter can fertilize flowers if they are wind fertilized — just hover over a field and watch the pollen fly.

Humming birds are however, severely handicapped in the task of putting out forest fires. Smokey was right; only we can prevent forest fires.

Hummingbirds are about 80% water, right? All you need is enough of them and a way to cause them to pop right over the fire and, voila!, no more fire (or hummingbirds).

Paraformaldehyde flakes? Fascinating.

Hm. I thought it was dandruff.

I call your Osmium tetroxide, and raise you Botulinum toxin!

I call your Botulinum and raise you plutonium/unobtainium alloy!

328. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

I call your Botulinum and raise you plutonium/unobtainium alloy!

I call your plutonium/unobtainium, and raise you my Ozark-born and raised grandmother’s “eye-talian” mostaccioli that she makes in a crock-pot with hamburger meat and almost no sauce and lets it sit all day!*

*I love you more than anything, Grandma, but please stop making that stuff.

329. One Thousand Needles says

Pteryxx:

…rot13′d…

Xe’s speaking in tongues!

330. says

A helicopter can fertilize flowers if they are wind fertilized — just hover over a field and watch the pollen fly.

Indeed, and while doing so they pollinate flowers. Have you evevr seen a helicopter pollinate a flower? Didn’t think so.

(Okay, I guess since helicopters cause a lot of wind and many trees, shrubs and grasses are wind pollinated, helicopters could in fact pollinate flowers, but that’s just not the same, now is it.)

Wind pollination is just so… Crude. So inefficient. Bah. Not civilized at all!

331. Ogvorbis says

Missed the parentheticals. Sorry. Very little sleep last night. And it is Friday. And I didn’t have breakfast. And it is raining. And I am deliberately trying to slight you. And I’m tired.

332. Ogvorbis says

By the way, this:

And I am deliberately trying to slight you.

should have had a :) after it. Attempted humour.

And I agree that wind pollination has no allure. Can you imagine if people bred through wind pollination? What would that do to original sin? Would wind become teh ebil?

333. says

For some reason I awoke four hours after going to sleep and I am still awake after two cups of coffee and a big bowl of oatmeal. I was going to practice guitar (with headphones) but the cat has fallen asleep in my lap.

So is anyone still here?

334. Nutmeg says

TLC: I heard about the bear encounter – better you than me! I’ll stick with my nice shy black bears over here, and I’ll still be terrified of them.

(Apparently, one night on my recent canoe trip, I shouted “Bear!” in my sleep, waking up my dad in the next tent. I have no memory of this. I don’t normally talk in my sleep, but I guess imaginary bears are an exception.)

I’m glad your dog is still around and doing okay. Our old Golden was out hunting with us until the weekend before she died, too. When a bird fell in her sightline, she was damn determined that she was going to get it, and she didn’t want to let it go. Only old dogs can get away with that…

335. Ogvorbis says

So is anyone still here?

I am. This is the only place that I have convinced myself that I fit in.

336. Antiochus Epiphanes says

Wind pollination is just so… Crude. So inefficient. Bah. Not civilized at all!

Maybe more inelegant than inefficient. Pollen is cheap and wind is everywhere. On the other hand, flowers and rewards for pollinators are both ephemeral and expensive, and pollinators can be unreliable.

337. Beatrice says

I’m here too. Mostly.

A neighbor/friend will drop by sometime soon, so I’ll be out again.

338. says

I would think that if wind were the mechanism for human reproduction it would draw moral condemnation in direct proportion to the amount of pleasure we could find in being out on a windy day.

And it might make a big difference in how the gender binary got constructed in the West. Instead of “female” occupying the negative pole, the wind would introduce a third term, which might lead to some sort of synthesis of the positive and the negative. And the end of History. Or something.

339. Nutmeg says

I’m still here.

I’m extremely conflict-averse, so I’m dealing with this situation by pretending it isn’t happening and proceeding as usual. I think others are doing roughly the same. Later today I’ll try to find a good recipe to share. :)

340. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

I have learned today that when I use my teapot, even though the lid fits on both ways, it should really only go one way.

Or else tea slops out the top.

Bah.

341. Ogvorbis says

I would think that if wind were the mechanism for human reproduction it would draw moral condemnation in direct proportion to the amount of pleasure we could find in being out on a windy day.

We would most likely also muck it up by deciding certain wind directions are sinful and others are godly.

And it would bring a whole new meaning to the term ‘hurricane baby’ or ‘blizzard baby.’

342. birgerjohansson says

Guys and gals, please come back!
— — — —
I know Frum has a past as an arsehole in the Bush administration, but this was perceptive:

“Why “You Didn’t Build That” Stings the Successful” http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/27/you-didnt-build-that.html
“To be sure, other politicians have declared that “life is unfair.” But that instruction is usually directed to society’s losers.
Obama is—almost uniquely—directing the message to society’s winners, including the very grand winner who will soon be nominated to run for president against him. They’re not used to it, and they don’t like it, not one bit.”
.
A Republican with a capacity for self-criticism of Our Cause ???? !!!!
Holy S?*@£t!!!
No wonder The Inquisition threw him out of The American Enterprise institute.

343. Rawnaeris says

Simple recipie for baked chicken:

Preheat oven to 400F.
Put olive oil in the bottom of a cooking pan (I like to use bread pans as the oil gets deeper and uses less).
Pat thawed chicken brests dry, place in pan, one breast per pan if using the aforementioned bread pans. Salt and pepper both sides to taste. Rosemary or basil also make good flavors.

Bake for 30 min, use a meat thermometer to verify doneness.

Goes great with brown rice, rolls and your choice of veggie.

And yes, this is lunch today.

(first time trying to write up a recipe, did it make sense?)

344. says

Hi Beatrice, Og, Nutmeg.

I am conflict-averse myself, most of the time. Occasionally I have too much coffee and blurt out something that scares me, though.

Oh and I am always arguing with the voices in my head, but that actually accounts for much of my disinclination to enter arguments taking place on the other side of my skull.

We would most likely also muck it up by deciding certain wind directions are sinful and others are godly.

I have always been partial to NW winds myself, so that must be a very perverse direction. SW winds scare me (grew up in the Deep South’s tornado alley), so they are probably the kind that fundamentalists would approve of.

345. says

The cat got up. Going to fire up the metronome now. I’ll be back a little later with coffee if chromatic runs don’t put me to sleep.

(My inner 14-year-old finds “chromatic runs” very amusing)

346. Ogvorbis says

I, too, am somewhat conflict averse. Unless I have something that, to me, seems useful, I try like hell to stay out of it. I did post a useless screed over at the zombie TZT thread which seemed like a good idea at the time. I’ll probably regret it.

347. Ogvorbis says

Going to fire up the metronome now

Girl’s band instructor in high school has a joke metronome. It can be set to act as a normal metronome, but it can also be set to speed up slowly, slow down slowly, or speed up and slow down slowly and randomly. He calls it the ‘neophyte drummer’ setting.

348. Ogvorbis says

Earlier, in TET, I asked if anyone wanted to take a bet regarding whether the radical right in the US would take the prominance of National Health during the opening ceremonies as an attempt to influence the US Presidential elections? Damn I hate being correct. And here , commenting on the Christian Science Monitor article:

No matter how you view this, it was another slap in the face of Mitt Romney, who was in the stands during the opening ceremony with his wife, Ann Romney. You see, Mitt Romney’s train wreck of a visit to London, came to an end with Danny Boyle, indirectly sending a message about universal health care, which he agreed with compliments of Romneycare, before he disagreed with Obamacare, which was born from his Massachusetts program.

This blog takes a progressive look at what happened. I cannot stomach delving into right wing blogs, so I’ll leave it here. But I bet Faux News will make it a centerpiece of propaganda this coming week.

349. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

Wind pollination is just so… Crude. So inefficient. Bah.

Coniferous forests and grasslands say: pbbbbbbbttttthhhhh to that. :)

Hi, my name is Carlie, and I’m conflict-averse. It’s not that I don’t have strength in my convictions, it’s that hurting people hurts me worse than being wrong does. Most of the time, anyway. Maybe those of us of like mind can build a blanket fort over in the corner of the Spanking Parlor and huddle down in it for awhile.

350. Tethys says

I’m here. I had to take yesterday off after it was obvious that trying to explain feelings to SB was not working at all.

(Love ya SB, but for the sake of my own mental health I won’t engage with you if I am at the *headdesk* point. I might try to explain again why people are upset at some point if I think it may have a beneficial effect.)

Ogvorbis

Good morning! I am so pleased that you learned to divide by 0.
I am so sorry that my story triggered so many people. I’m not sorry for telling it, but I don’t like making people cry.
I feel horribly guilty that I made lots of regulars cry and others be triggered.
—-

I feel like discussing anything that is happy and cheery. I am pleased to report that in addition to flying squirrels, my tiny urban yard has been deemed appropriate habitat for a pair of catbirds.

351. Tethys says

SB? What the hell brain? I obviously need way moar coffeee!

352. Antiochus Epiphanes says

Carlie:

It’s not that I don’t have strength in my convictions, it’s that hurting people hurts me worse than being wrong does.

You seem to be able to engage people without being wrong and without hurting them. You are notable in this regard.

353. Owlmirror says

Can you imagine if people bred through wind pollination?

Two words:

Ent porn

354. I don’t think I’d describe myself as conflict-averse. I’ll avoid confrontation if others have already piled on or if I feel like it wouldn’t do any good, but in situations where I do feel like it might do some good? A muzzle wouldn’t shut me up.

Correcting people on factual information is usually where I step in and I don’t like to let up when someone is ignoring the facts. Hard evidence is what I like to fight with.

Prejudices are harder to be sure that I can actually do any good, so I’m less inclined to jump in there. I’ll listen and pay attention to arguments, but it just doesn’t feel productive to me. I know it can be and I applaud those who can do it, but it doesn’t seem that way when I do it.

355. says

Maybe more inelegant than inefficient.

Well yes, inelegant would probably have been better. Although, based on pollen/ovule ratios alone, pollination by animals is the more efficient and heterospecific pollen competition is much greater in wind pollinators. Off course it has it’s advantages too (e.g. long distance pollen transport, independence of pollinators, no investment in flowers or other nectar producing structures, etc). Still, bah. It’s boring, inelegant and it gives people hay fever.

356. Antiochus Epiphanes says

Animal induced pollination also induces reproductive isolation and more rapid speciation. So that’s cool, too.

357. Pteryxx says

*carefully pushes some hugs with foot towards the blanket fort*

Not sure how cheery this item is, but it does end up happy: the cancer patient who founded PoopStrong.

He launched what we cancer patients sometimes refer to as an internet lemonade stand: a site called Poop Strong (a light-hearted parody of “Livestrong”). At poopstrong.org, he invited well-wishers to make a donation or buy schwag, with all proceeds going to his healthcare.

[...]

Arijit ended up debating directly with the CEO of Aetna, Mark T. Bertolini. The tl;dr: Aetna, and Mr. Bertolini, agreed in the end to cover the full extent of bills that accrued since Arijit was dropped from insurance (about \$118,000).

“The system is broken,” said Bertolini. “I really am trying to fix it.”

Arijit is redirecting all of the donations he received the University of Arizona Cancer Center Patient Assistance Fund and The Wellness Community (Arizona), to directly assist other people with cancer who cannot pay for the life-saving medical treatments they need.

http://boingboing.net/2012/07/28/poop-strong-young-cancer-pati.html

Lots of further links, details, and a Storify via BB.

358. says

Can you imagine if people bred through wind pollination?

Uhm… I don’t want to think about that…

359. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

Owlmirror:

Ent porn

There is fanfic of it.

360. thunk (Фарингюловская Народная Республика) says

Lol.

Hello everyone.

When I have a fever, I can’t sleep. At all. Period.

So slowly lying awake happened for the first two hours, then I got some documentary on for the next two.

Then the fever subsided and I finally slept for a while.

Through it all was a moderately nasty headache, at some points, in three clusters of pain. (Totes a Pteryxx attack).

But I feel better now.

361. says

Coniferous forests and grasslands say: pbbbbbbbttttthhhhh to that. :)

Pfff. All the interesting grassland plants are insect pollinated. Case in point: Orchids, definitely the coolest thing about calcareous grasslands! (I can’t argue about the conifers though)

I feel like discussing anything that is happy and cheery. I am pleased to report that in addition to flying squirrels, my tiny urban yard has been deemed appropriate habitat for a pair of catbirds.

Oooooh, birdie!

Re. Conflict.
yep, definitely somewhat conflict averse, me. So, let’s build this blanket fort, shall we?!

362. Ogvorbis says

Uhm… I don’t want to think about that…

Too late. Unless one is a GOP politician, what has been thinked cannot be unthinked.

There is fanfic of it.

Doesn’t count if an elf is involved.

363. Tethys says

no investment in flowers

Grass is a wind-pollinated angiosperm.

364. says

There is fanfic of it.

Well, yeah, there probably is. But then there’s fanfic of just about everything.
To be honest, I’ve never understood the whole erotic fanfic thing. But maybe that’s just me.

365. thunk (Фарингюловская Народная Республика) says

Carlie:

Ooh! Mind If I join your blanket fort?

*Tosses a few of my own there*

366. One Thousand Needles says

…the full extent of bills that accrued since Arijit was dropped from insurance (about \$118,000)…

And that was after he exceeded the \$300,000 expense cap?

I have got to get the fuck out of the USA before I develop any health problems.

367. Pteryxx says

>_>

random – at the moment I’m half-watching Contact, which I’ve never seen. Holy moley what a perfect illustration of chilly climate in all those meetings.

368. says

Grass is a wind-pollinated angiosperm.

Yes, it is, and it has strongly reduced flowers. I’m not saying there are no flowering plants that are wind pollinated, but wind pollinated plants don’t need to invest in conspicuous petals, nectar production, scent producing structures,…

369. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

Oggie:

There is fanfic of it.

Doesn’t count if an elf is involved.

There is plenty that is Ent/Entwife or Ent/Ent or Entwife/Entwife.

And then there’s that involving n values greater than 2.

370. Nutmeg says

*carefully creeps into blanket fort*

I brought cards, a flashlight, and some popcorn. What else does a fort need?

371. Beatrice says

Can I get in? My mum made us jaffa cake. *shows plate*

372. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

Ooh! I brought my Uno cards, and my Apples to Apples set.

Also, I have chips.

373. Pteryxx says

Apples to Apples? Meh – the original, Attribut, is best game.

http://www.brettspielwelt.de/Hilfe/Anleitungen/Attribut/?nation=en

…what else does a blanket fort need? umm… suitably kidlike weapons? (yarn balls, socks… help me out here, people who had lives?)

Also comfort food. Portable comfort food. Personally I have a history with M&Ms, which can also serve as ammo in a pinch.

374. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

Yarn, needles, hooks, all that.

I can bring my Settlers of Catan set if you want.

375. Tethys says

Pentatomid

I realize pointing out that some wind pollinated plants do have flowers is a minor detail, but scientific accuracy and SIWOTI are at stake. ;)

I think the variety of pollination methods found in Plantae is an endlessly fascinating subject. Equisetum is another interesting variation within wind-pollinated plants. It doesn’t even bother with making seeds.

Sporangia sounds vaguely pornographic.

376. says

I’ll bring a couple of bottles of lemonade. I’ve got LotR Risk, but that doesn’t really seem like a blanket fort sort of game.

377. says

*Knocks at the blanket fort door* May I come in? I bring more blankets in case there is need for a new wing. Also unfiltered apple cider (some of those words will be redundant in some English speaking countries, but I mean the non-alcoholic stuff that is pressed out of apples).

378. Pteryxx says

………

…Thought… what would boardgamer types here think of a Pharyngula Island in BSW? Javascript, chatrooms and channels, an optional economy where folks can landscape and build their own homes, surrounded by a multilingual (mostly German) community, and dozens of boardgames to enjoy? I’m a rather lapsed citizen of Englishtown, one of the oldest of a ring of English-speaking towns in there.

http://www.brettspielwelt.de/Hilfe/FAQ/

379. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

The blanket fort is infinitely expandable. And there’s a cooler in the back with Klondike bars and orange sherbet pop-ups and wine ice cream>.

Thanks, AE, that means a lot to me. I always obsess over what I say and double-and triple-worry about it, ever since my first experience with online communities. It was in the late 90s, and there was a pregnancy website that had forum boards for each month of expectancy. Those of us all on one month got along great, and once we got kicked off of the pregnancy site (when they re-set for the next year’s pregnancies) someone created a new board and we all moved to it. Went along great for close to a year, and then the divisions started. I kept trying to be the master smoother-over and explain everyone’s points to each other and keep everybody happy. Turned out that each faction had set up their own listserve behind the scenes that they were using for griping at each other, and each faction thought that I was in cahoots with the other one, and nobody believed that I had no idea what they were all talking about behind each others’ backs and then they all hated me. It still stings to think about it. So I worry that I’m both contributing to the problem and being too much of a white knight about it at the same time whenever I step into anything, which is why I tend to pull a blanket over my head instead.

380. Antiochus Epiphanes says

Tethys: Equisetum doesn’t even make pollen, for that matter.

381. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

*makes an antechamber with a blanket, and leaves tray full of grog, swill, and bacon sammiches in the antechamber*

382. says

Equisetum is another interesting variation within wind-pollinated plants. It doesn’t even bother with making seeds.

Uhm, Equisetum, being a spore plant, doesn’t do pollination of any kind. You know, like ferns. Pollination =/= fertilization and pollination =/= shedding spores. Pollination requires, you know… Pollen.

383. ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ says

Tethys,

I’m here. I had to take yesterday off after it was obvious that trying to explain feelings to [SG] was not working at all.

To be clear, I understand feelings. I don’t agree with your therefores.

384. Sili says

Turned out that each faction had set up their own listserve behind the scenes that they were using for griping at each other, and each faction thought that I was in cahoots with the other one, and nobody believed that I had no idea what they were all talking about behind each others’ backs and then they all hated me.

Eurrgh. People!

385. Pteryxx says

carlie: re master smoother-over, something similar happened within my guild. I tried and failed, but some folks still thank me for it.

386. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

I realize pointing out that some wind pollinated plants do have flowers is a minor detail, but scientific accuracy and SIWOTI are at stake. ;)

ALL wind-pollinated plants have flowers. :)

Terminology: flowers are defined as structures that produce ovaries and/or anthers. They can be perfect, meaning having both male and female, or imperfect, having only anthers or ovaries. A complete flower has anthers, ovaries, petals, and sepals; an incomplete flower is missing any one of those, or many (such as the wind-pollinated ones you described).

There are plants without flowers that produce reproductive propagules that are dispersed by the wind, but those are not technically “wind-pollinated”, because there is no pollen and the wind is not carrying eggs or sperm for reproduction. The wind is carrying haploid spores, which then grow into gametophytes, which THEN produce eggs and sperm not in flowers, but in small vase-like structures (archaegonia and antheridia), and the sperm are carried to the eggs via water. Those are the ferns, horsetails, lycopods, mosses, liverworts, and hornworts.

*looks around, sees self left alone monologuing*

Um, I brought some snickerdoodles.

Also, several vases full of tissue-paper and pipe cleaner flowers to brighten up the fort.

387. thunk (Фарингюловская Народная Республика) says

Pteryxx:

Thought… what would boardgamer types here think of a Pharyngula Island in BSW? Javascript, chatrooms and channels, an optional economy where folks can landscape and build their own homes, surrounded by a multilingual (mostly German) community, and dozens of boardgames to enjoy? I’m a rather lapsed citizen of Englishtown, one of the oldest of a ring of English-speaking towns in there.

Not really into that sort of thing, sorry. Also never heard of it.

388. chigau (違う) says

Work’s done, plane is tomorrow, who can I bite?
(I thrive on conflict but I am currently too busy googling “nice shy black bears” and “ent porn”.)

389. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

*pulls cushions off the sofa, adds them to the fort*

390. thunk (Фарингюловская Народная Республика) says

*pulls cushions off all three sofas and adds to fort*

391. chigau (違う) says

A couple of years ago, when there was a scream-fest, a bunch of people hid under the stairs.
What became of them?

392. Pteryxx says

Maybe the metaphor under the stairs came alive and ate them?

(Scary stories go in blanket forts too, right? Right? ….Hello?)

393. says

ALL wind-pollinated plants have flowers.

Uhm… Gymnosperms?!

394. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

What became of them?

Oh shit, I think I was supposed to organize the casserole brigade…

*runs to check*

395. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

Uhm… Gymnosperms?!

Um

396. Sili says

Can you imagine if people bred through wind pollination?

Well. I do recall wind pollination being described as tree bukkake. Usually be people suffering allergies.

397. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

SO AS I WAS SAYING,
The other major variant is plants that do have sperm produced in anthers enclosed in pollen, which is then transferred via wind to eggs, but the eggs are not produced in ovaries, which makes them not flowers. These are the gymnosperms. As far as I know, the main reason that the male cones of gymnosperms are not called incomplete imperfect flowers is that the term “flower” refers to reproductive type of plant as a whole, and is tied to the presence/absence of ovaries regardless of whether the plant is also dioecious (producing male and female on different individuals).

(Yews and gingkos, although having their ovules in a fleshy covering, are not in an ovary as anatomically defined, but simply a fleshy stem projection.)

398. Beatrice says

*runs to check*

Carlie?

Carlie? Are you there?

You know, if no one has been feeding the people under the stairs then maybe you should not go there without backup.

They Those left might be hungry.

399. dianne says

Ugh. One of those days…Partner and small child (well, semi-small child: she’s 9) are in Germany. I’m in the US. Small child fell off a 1.5 meter wall and is now in hospital in Germany. From what I can tell she’s doing ok. Since she’s responding to questions in the language they’re asked in and had no head trauma, I’m pretty convinced she’s neurologically intact. She’s complaining of thirst which makes me a little concerned for internal bleeding, but she fell during a walk on a warm day so that’s pretty explicable too. Nonetheless, 3 million worst case scenarios are running through my head right now.

400. Beatrice says

There you are. Ok then.

401. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

*please don’t take my botany cred card away*

Beatrice – oh, I think it will be fi….aghqwerw@#\$*D!!!

402. dianne says

The monsters under the stairs had best stay away from me right now: my adrenalin’s up. Hmm…Bye, all. I’m off to troll fundie sites for a while.

403. thunk (Фарингюловская Народная Республика) says

Dianne:

Ugh. One of those days…Partner and small child (well, semi-small child: she’s 9) are in Germany. I’m in the US. Small child fell off a 1.5 meter wall and is now in hospital in Germany. From what I can tell she’s doing ok. Since she’s responding to questions in the language they’re asked in and had no head trauma, I’m pretty convinced she’s neurologically intact. She’s complaining of thirst which makes me a little concerned for internal bleeding, but she fell during a walk on a warm day so that’s pretty explicable too. Nonetheless, 3 million worst case scenarios are running through my head right now.

Oh ouch; hope small child gets better.

404. Beatrice says

dianne,

Shit. I hope you don’t get any more nasty surprises and that your daughter is fine.

405. thunk (Фарингюловская Народная Республика) says

Beatrice:

Hey, I have lots of leftover rice!

*tosses in*

406. says

dianne,
Hope small child is gonna be okay.

407. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

Dianne – hope it’s ok. So sorry you have to deal with it away from them. :(

408. Sili says

*phew*

I had no idea what I was gonna get paid this month, since it’s forced holiday, but it turns out I’ve managed to put in overtime, so I’m back in black.

409. Beatrice says

thunk,

Well, rice should go well with human flesh. I guess. It goes fine with pork, and I imagine human meat would taste like that. No?

Carlie, ask those people nibbling on your body parts about which meat they remind them most of. Thanks.

Er… I mean. Hang on in there. We’re coming to the rescue. Aren’t we?

Someone?

Anyone?

410. Pteryxx says

re Voltaire song above: srsly, even if you can’t stand metal, do read the lyrics to the end. ;>

411. says

I knocked on the door under the stairs and heard someone whisper “… brains?”

412. chigau (違う) says

They weren’t monsters when they hid under the stairs.
It started out like our current blanket fort…

413. says

Pteryxx,

Great song, great lyrics.

414. says

I’m going to be gone for a couple of hours. I’ll be back later. Bye everyone.

415. dianne says

Thanks, everyone. Just popping in to say that small child seems to be doing better and that sneering at creationists is oddly satisfying in the right mood.

416. chigau (違う) says

How many units each of nanaimo bar, butter tarts and date squares can one person eat in one afternoon?

417. Owlmirror says

*holds flashlight under face*

I hold in my hand a set of AudioQuest K2 terminated speaker cable, which was brought back at great cost from Under the Stairs. I’m going to connect the speakers to this audio system using them, thus (*plug*, *plug*). And then, I’m going to put on some music. . .

And we’ll hear what we’ll hear.

Anyone game for horror movie soundtracks? Or maybe just Mahler’s 9th symphony?

Any suggestions?

Muahahahahahaha. . .

418. Beatrice says

NBC: We skipped terror tribute because it wasn’t “tailored for the U.S. audience”

Excerpt:

Last night’s Olympic opening ceremony included a tribute to all victims of terror–specifically the victims of the bombings that took place in London on July 7, 2005–the day the Olympics were awarded to London. But if you watched it on NBC, you didn’t get a chance to see it.

Actually, “coverage” might not be the best term to describe NBC’s prime-time Olympic broadcast. NBC is trying to sell the Games that cost \$1.18 billion in U.S. TV rights fees — and hundreds of millions more to promote and produce.

So when it came time in the opening ceremony for something that has been widely interpreted as a tribute to the 52 victims of terrorist attacks in London in 2005, it’s not shocking NBC didn’t see lingering on that as helping its overall marketing effort. When asked why NBC didn’t show the memorial, NBC spokesman Greg Hughes on Saturday said only that “our programming is tailored for the U.S. audience. It’s a tribute to (opening ceremony producer) Danny Boyle that it required so little editing.”

419. Tethys says

I’m growing this wind pollinated plant in my garden this year. It is starting to color up beautifully. I’m hoping for a bountiful harvest as it was ridiculously expensive for 20 seeds.

420. Forbidden Snowflake says

Hi, thunk! Can I ask you a question?
In your nym, is Фарингюла intentionally misspelled? It’s making me twitch every time I see it.

421. broboxley OT says

hmm .I would join those the the fort but would be afraid of passing taking things literally gas. You cant get that out of the pillows

422. Six ways NBC blew it

My favorite is the part where Veiera and Costas make the equivalent of fart jokes about the various countries and make insensitive comments, like about how great it is that Rwanda “bounced back” from that whole genocide thing.

423. Owlmirror says

I’m growing this wind pollinated plant in my garden this year. It is starting to color up beautifully.

I see your Striped-Leafed Japanese Maize, and raise you Glass Gem Corn.

(No, I don’t have or grow any; it’s just that “corn” reminded me. And also the “color” part.)

424. carlie, who has nice reading comprehension says

Holy crap, that corn is beautiful. I wonder how it tastes, and how hard it is to grow? (Rhetorical, I can go look it up.)

425. chigau (違う) says

I wish I could grow corn.

426. hotshoe says

How many units each of nanaimo bar, butter tarts and date squares can one person eat in one afternoon?

Oh, my, I can eat half a panful of Nanaimo bars in one day. Yes, even though they’re that rich. But then I would have to skip the tarts and date squares … choices, choices!

427. hotshoe says

Anyone game for horror movie soundtracks? Or maybe just Mahler’s 9th symphony?

Any suggestions?

Muahahahahahaha. . .

Well, what as the stress we’ve had lately, maybe something a little more light-hearted. Even some of that never-ending New Age you would never listen to in any other circumstances.

This one gets a 5-star rating from me: Bruce Cockburn, instrumental

titled “Mistress of Storms”. Not at all stormy, though. Nice vibraphone with Cockburn’s guitar.

428. Nutmeg says

hotshoe:

I can eat half a panful of Nanaimo bars in one day.

Lightweight. :P

429. says

Owlmirror,

Anyone game for horror movie soundtracks?

I’ve always loved the simple and foreboding Halloween theme by Carpenter. Maybe it’s just too recognizable by now, dunno.

430. Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google says

Anyone game for horror movie soundtracks? Or maybe just Mahler’s 9th symphony?

Any suggestions?

Muahahahahahaha. . .

What, no Dvořák? The New World Symphony has a very memorable sequence in it…

431. Simple recipie for baked chicken:

Should you be cooking chicken parts with bones in, like a cut-up fryer, the simplest way I’ve found to do that is somewhat similar and comes from Peg Bracken in the I Hate To Housekeep Book: brush parts with olive oil, place in pan, salt and pepper. Broil 12 minutes on one side, 12 minutes on the other side, that is all.

Although my favorite way to cook chicken or turkey hindquarters is still slow braising, to melt down all the connective tissue into silky goodness.

432. hotshoe says

Ooh, here’s another one I haven’t listened to in years:

Bela Fleck – Natural Bridges Suite

Yes, there’s banjo in it. And also the sweet violin of one of the world’s masters – Mark O’Connor; I’m pretty sure that’s also Mark O’Connor playing the guitar part way through the track but I don’t have the musician info for certain.

[Damn you kids. See what we miss when we don't have the old physical recordings with all that info on their labels?]

433. hotshoe says

I’m growing this wind pollinated plant in my garden this year. It is starting to color up beautifully. I’m hoping for a bountiful harvest as it was ridiculously expensive for 20 seeds.

Pretty, very pretty.

Now where is the plant breeder to cross it with a delicious productive sweet corn, so we can have beautiful edible gardens ? The color would reduce the yield a little, okay, takes away from the chlorophyll that would otherwise be feeding sugar to corn kernels – but corn is so, well, blocky and boring in an edible garden, I would definitely go for the colored-leaf one.

434. Misterc just “gave” me this pattern drafting course for an anniversary present.

I checked out his blog and it only took me seeing the use of chalk and a wall for self-marking fitting lines (!) and the idea of using gingham for draping because it shows the grain line clearly and marked in convenient 1/4″ segments (!!) for me to know I had to see what else he had to say about patternmaking. I have not been able to master making bodices that fit well over many attempts and I’m excited to think this might do the trick. I have so many beautiful things I want to make.

435. Beatrice says

Good night thread, people in the tent, people under the stairs and anyone else I’ve forgotten to mention.

436. Amblebury says

Lyn M Yes, I was in the land of Nod. But hellooooo!

‘Tis Be well. I feel like saying I’ll light a candle in anticipation of your return. This appeals to both the sentimentalist and the pyromaniac in me.

And now, gah, necessary stuff that doesn’t involve faffing around on the intertubes. Really. What I have to put up with.

437. birgerjohansson says

(thinks of Family Guy)
God night, Evil Monkey in the closet!

438. Pteryxx says

Fincke’s no-insult-policy thread … really isn’t much worth reading, IMHO, not for anyone in pillow-fort mode. However this neat solution to referencing threaded comments came up:

[meta + OT]

Re:6.25-6.27

Josh R., that is a most excellent (and novel to me) way to refer to specific comments (or ranges of comments), and one I shall adopt henceforth and which I hope will catch on.

Thank you!

that’s John Morales’s comment; method apparently comes from commenter Steersman somewhere upthread.

439. says

Good night Beatrice!

Pteryxx,

Ooh. That does look useful!
Also, I took a look at that thread earlier and I agree, not very interesting and not at all for blanket fort people.

440. Pteryxx says

…holy crap, if anyone wants awareness of Fincke’s comment thread of stupid …obstinate cluelessness, here are two responses to Natalie.

(rot13’d for easier ignoreability)

Qnavry Svapxr fnlf:
Whyl 29, 2012 ng 4:39 cz

“Fghcvq vf n frevbhf jbeq gung gbezragf zber crbcyr guna genaal qbrf.”

Jung?

Jung?!

JUNG?!

V xvaqn whfg jnag gb gryy lbh naq lbhe frafr bs cebcbegvba naq gnfgr gb tb gb uryy.

V ubcr gung qbrfa’g gbezrag lbh.

Genaftraqrerq crbcyr ner srjre va ahzore guna gur ahzore bs crbcyr unezshyyl pnyyrq fghcvq ol gurve cneragf, grnpuref, fpubbyzngrf, sevraqf, rgp. Gung’f gur bayl cbvag. Naq vg’f n gehr bar. Vg qbrf abg zrna gung pnyyvat fbzrbar n “genaal” vf abg qrfcvpnoyr. Bs pbhefr vg vf.

Naq, ab, V qba’g nccerpvngr lbhe nggrzcg gb gbezrag zr. Naq vg vf bar. Naq V qb abg qrfreir gb or gerngrq gung jnl. Orvat cneg bs n ubeevoyl gerngrq tebhc qbrf abg punatr gung.

and

Qnavry Svapxr fnlf:
Whyl 29, 2012 ng 4:47 cz

Qna, ernqvat guebhtu gurfr pbzzragf, lbh unir cerggl rcvpnyyl qebccrq gur onyy urer.

Lbh ner ABG va gur cbfvgvba gb or qvpgngvat jurgure be abg gnetrgrq vafhygf ner be abg “nf onq” nf fyhef. Naq lbh FREVBHFYL arrq gb fgrc onpx, naq znlor gel gb yvfgra gb gubfr jub’ir orra ba gur erprvivat raq bs obgu (gur snpg gung lbh zvtug guvax “fghcvq” uhegf lbhe srryvatf zber guna “penpxre” qbrf abg pbhag, ol gur jnl).

Lbh’ir fnvq fbzr nznmvatyl vafrafvgvir, gnfgryrff guvatf urer. Ner lbh fher guvf vf n uvyy lbh jnag gb qvr ba?

Lbhe ubfgvyr, guerngravat nggrzcg gb fvyrapr zr jvgu rzbgvbany ivgevby vf abg nccerpvngrq, Angnyvr.

Rirelbar qrfreirf erfcrpg. Lbh, zr, nyy bs hf. V unir gerngrq crbcyr jvgu erfcrpg va gurfr qrongrf. Rvgure gerng zr naq bguref nf rdhnyf, qrfreivat gur pbhegrfl bs ernfbarq nethzragf naq erfcrpgshy qvfnterrzragf, be fgbc pbzvat gb zl oybt.

441. says

Pteryxx, please. Could you post those to TZT and a link here, without rot13? Not that I’d demand anything of you, it just would be nice.

442. Pteryxx says

um, I’ll take it under consideration, but why? As far as I know, rot13’s a generally agreed-upon method of posting content here when folks may want the option to ignore it or gear up for it. Would y’all rather not see anything that relates to a conflict at all, for the moment?

443. chigau (違う) says

As far as I know rot13 is for posting spoilers to movies.
I don’t decode them.

444. hotshoe says

As far as I know rot13 is for posting spoilers to movies.
I don’t decode them.

Rot13.com
Cut and paste. Easy peezy.

445. says

Pteryxx, TZT is for disagreements, TET is the lounge. I don’t know what else I could say.

446. chigau (違う) says

I am aware of rot13.com.
I can’t think of a good reason why I would bother.

447. David Marjanović says

It is 1:11 am. I have caught up.

Tethys, where did you tell your story?

dianne, *hug* *cocoa shell tea with rooibos, vanilla and cinnamon*

*blink* You actually “need” to deactivate the license on a dead computer? I thought such EULAs were limited to one or two computers at the same time.

(“Need” in scare quotes because it doesn’t physically limit what you can do, it’s just a legal limitation.)

the Illyrians got overrun by the Romans ca 200 BC

I thought much later?

Anyway, no Romulans in Enterprise! First contact with them is made in the original series, which is set later!

I’m not the only one who has been getting emails from mormons that are essentially fundraising vehicles for Mitt Romney. The trouble is that mormons are using official mormon Ward email lists to send these out. The LDS Church put out a no-politics statement. This is what they usually do, and then they ignore the fact that their members use church resources for campaign purposes.

That’s it. Tax their asses. And then tax the rest of them.

Geek parenting perk http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2684

An example for Darkfetus to follow? :-)

:-) :-) :-)

Got any flag proposals?

Heraldry is Walton’s job. He designed the coat of arms. :-)

Very few of us are Straw Vulcans. This is a normal part of most human emotion and it’s not going to go away. (David M—I know you often don’t get this and don’t experience it the same way, so please don’t lecture about it OK?).

Oh no, I completely agree: on his worse days, ixchel often expects everyone to be a Straw Vulcan, and drama ensues.

Above, I’ve said he (like Matt Penfold) seems to expect everyone to have thought things through to the extent that they don’t hold contradictions in their minds – so when people contradict themselves, they’re lying. On TZT, he said he agrees that he needs to change this assumption; what surprised me a lot is that he also said it drives him mad when Matt does it!

Setar, why are you spoiling the lounge?

I can see you smirking.

You’re deliberately pressing his buttons.

Stop that.

FFS!!!

In this case, since we cannot actually transmit gas by USB, perhaps it is really a configuration of electrons that causes take-everything-literally.

AAAAARGH! X-)

Emotions are what make us human.

Now watch me get emotional on a tangent.

Emotions might be what makes us fucking chordates! Even amphioxus have a limbic system!

I’m really annoyed by how deeply rooted human exceptionalism is. So many people, and Western culture in general, seem to have it as their default assumption that everything which occurs in humans occurs only in humans!

…Sorry to single you out. You just triggered one of my pet peeves. *honeybush tea*

FREES: But doesn’t television stretch the imagination?

FREBERG: Up to 27 inches, yes.

LOL!

We are dangerously low on recipes here!

Hmmmmm. Should I ask for permission to post the recipe for the delicious, delicious braised chicken Jules made when she was here? :-)

Emergency structure decontamination:

That… is… fucking… hardcore.

Hey, let’s talk bout something cheerier. Osmium tetroxide!

Let’s just end this discussion with a timesink:
Things I won’t work with

Basically, I’m using gene expression to look at the evolution and speciation of [critters]. Evolution is not a popular topic with many Mennonites. But I decided to be honest about my research anyway, because weddings make me cranky. Nobody freaked out. It’s almost too bad – a discussion with a creationist would have been preferable to hiding in the hallway to avoid dancing.

I can imagine. *hug* *chocolate with a cookie in it*

The CSS for Sb Pharyngula is terrible. [...] Why are blockquotes in italic?

Could be a WordPress default.

The character set is screwed up.

Yes, it’s been set to Cold War Western ever since National Geographic took over. Shame on them.

Girl’s band instructor in high school has a joke metronome. It can be set to act as a normal metronome, but it can also be set to speed up slowly, slow down slowly, or speed up and slow down slowly and randomly. He calls it the ‘neophyte drummer’ setting.

:-o Fucking awesome.

*carefully pushes some hugs with foot towards the blanket fort*

^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^

448. cicely says

*cautiously sticking head into TET, looking around*

Drama over?
*tiptoe-ing in and sitting down*

I’m extremely conflict-averse, so I’m dealing with this situation by pretending it isn’t happening and proceeding as usual. I think others are doing roughly the same. Later today I’ll try to find a good recipe to share. :)

+1
Except the part about the recipe.

Hi, my name is Carlie, and I’m conflict-averse.

Hi, Carlie!
If you build the walls of the blanket fort, I’ll bring the big squashy pillows.

Speaking only for myself, I came out from under the stairs after the fall-out seemed to have settled. Unfortunately, we appear to have left a lot of un-exploded ordnance lying around. Which have now exploded.
I vote we spring for better mine-sweeping tech.

dianne, I hope your sprogling recovers quickly and well.

Tethys, those Japanese Maize plants look interesting. Pics, when done?
-

449. hotshoe says

Despite that the link text says Bela Fleck (etc), that goes to the Bruce Cockburn song.

This is the first Youtube hit on: Bela Fleck – Natural Bridges Suite, FWIW.

Also, MOAR Banjo!: Steve Martin, Bela Fleck, Tony Trischka — The Crow

Oops, sorry, thanks for the correct link.

Steve Martin can hold his own with the pros. There was some pretty fiddling by Brittany Haas and Tony Trischka got in some nice licks. Bela Fleck was a little self-indulgent, as he has been way too often for the last decade.

Bela did make a great documentary about African music called Throw Down Your Heart, which is available streaming from Netflix.

450. Pteryxx says

Unless PZ changed the rules just now and I missed it, he said TZT is for *extended* disagreements, as in the disagreeing that happens in TET should not go on and on or become overtly personal. Folks post “look at this mess over there” FYI-type comments in TET all the time. …Would you just rather not see any of that at all?

451. says

There are no rules at all anymore.

452. Pteryxx says

David M:

*blink* You actually “need” to deactivate the license on a dead computer? I thought such EULAs were limited to one or two computers at the same time.

(“Need” in scare quotes because it doesn’t physically limit what you can do, it’s just a legal limitation.)

They WILL physically stop you from installing on another machine, by requiring that the unique machine+softwareID configuration be registered with them online or some such before the software can be installed or used. Theoretically you have the right to install on another machine if one dies, but in practice you have to convince the company first that you should really be allowed.

453. Part-Time Insomniac, Zombie Porcupine Nox Arcana Fan says

*tiptoes around duds lying on the ground and peeks into the fort sitting in the corner*

I brought cookies. *offers two bags*

OK, very important question: Can you freeze leftover fried chicken? Mom apparently forgot that we will be leaving for vacation in a mere 3 days and fried up a whole package of chicken cutlets. Even taking some every day for lunch won’t make much of a dent before we go.

454. Pteryxx says

There are no rules at all anymore.

…okay, then until something changes, I imagine there to be a rot13 bulletin board over in the corner of the lounge where the volunteer notices and angry-making FYIs go. On the opposite side of the room from the pillow fort. …I’ll go sit over there. <_<

455. chigau (違う) says

There you go, Pteryxx.
Do whatever you want.
(at least until PZ stops whatever this is)

456. says

Ok, uhm, while there are no official rules anymore, I would like to propose we stick to the ‘let’s keep TET the lounge, a.k.a. a safe and comfortable place to hang out’-rule that existed before anyway. That said, I have no problem with the rot13 comments being posted here by Pteryxx.

457. says

I don’t know…I’m hoping total anarchy works and this can be permanent. It makes my job easier.

When I got up this morning, I saw the long list of unread new comments, and instead of actually scanning them, I did this magical thing of simply selecting all and marking as read. I’ve done that again just now. And they all went away with no time or effort on my part!

The comments section here is totally peaceful and stress-free as long as I close my eyes and don’t look.

458. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

*saunters over with more grog, swill, and bacon sammiches for the blanket fort. Hears ding, and runs to the back room and brings out planovered fish fry fresh out of the oven from Friday and plops it in front of the Redhead*

459. cicely says

Warm, home-made cinnamon/pecan rolls. Now that’s comfort food!

What pentatomid said, @472.
-

460. hotshoe says

OK, very important question: Can you freeze leftover fried chicken? Mom apparently forgot that we will be leaving for vacation in a mere 3 days and fried up a whole package of chicken cutlets. Even taking some every day for lunch won’t make much of a dent before we go.

Sure you can. What will happen is that the batter will lose it’s nice crunchy consistency, meat will be just fine. Sorry, but then again, it was already getting a little soggy sitting in the fridge, right ?

One way to handle it it to peel off most of the skin/coating now, before you freeze it. A few crumbs remaining won’t matter. When you defrost it, chop up the meat for salad, or a pasta dish, or something. That way you won’t miss the nice fried skin that isn’t there anymore.

Today you should freeze whatever you calculate you won’t use in three days. No point waiting to the last minute before throwing it in the freezer. Quality goes down a little each day it’s in the fridge …

Hope you have a great vacation!

461. chigau (違う) says

What is a blog for if you don’t care about the comments?

462. ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ says

David,

Oh no, I completely agree: on his worse days, ixchel often expects everyone to be a Straw Vulcan, and drama ensues.

This “Vulcan” thing is getting tossed around with at least two different meanings in this thread. Some disambiguation would be helpful.

In #248 it’s used to mean one who emphasizes a (false) dichotomy in which rationality stands opposed to emotionality.

For the entire time I’ve commented at Pharyngula, I have vocally opposed that false dichotomy.

463. David Marjanović says

*sweet chai with honeybush for PZ*

They WILL physically stop you from installing on another machine, by requiring that the unique machine+softwareID configuration be registered with them online or some such before the software can be installed or used. Theoretically you have the right to install on another machine if one dies, but in practice you have to convince the company first that you should really be allowed.

…Christ, what assholes.

(It really does work for every situation.)

464. David Marjanović says

You seem to be neglecting a couple of other emotions.

But, hey, I personally am fine if you stop deliberately pressing people’s buttons as you did with Setár above. I can’t find a way to justify such evil as necessary or useful.

465. Meant to give comment at the time but it was apparently eated due to quick posting.

Chas said nothing wrong I was biased in reading him and am embarrassed about it. It goes to show you the great differentiation in meaning you can get from written word.

466. says

PZ,

Sure. That’s fine. What I was thinking of is more a sort of informal agreement between regulars here. You know, just so we all try to ensure that TET remains comfortable for everyone and try to direct discussions that get too personnal or too heated to TZT. I don’t think that necessarily means you policing the thread. I really don’t have a problem with you not getting involved if you don’t want to. I would be unhappy losing TET as a safe little hang out, though. It’s fun here.

467. I don’t know…I’m hoping total anarchy works and this can be permanent. It makes my job easier.

So much for caring about safe spaces and all that

468. says

What is a blog for if you don’t care about the comments?

Bwahahahahahahaha! Good one.

I’ve been caring about the comments for 10 fucking years. Everyone has a different and, they’re sure, better idea about how they should be handled. So you’re all on your own — let’s see how it works out.

469. ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ says

David your response appears to have preceded clicking.

You seem to be neglecting a couple of other emotions.

No, I’m not.

I just hoped that quote would remind you of what I’ve said before.

470. says

ixchel and David
I know there are no rules anymore, but can you please, pleeeaaaaassse either keep this on TZT or just let it be this time.
Just a request.

471. *tiptoes in* Is it safe? OOOOoooh blanket fort! I have a fresh pot of coffee and some macadamia & white chocolate chip cookies here. And a zebra-patterned polar-fleece blankie.

Yes, sure you can freeze leftover fried chicken. Reheating it later will require a bit of skill or luck for it to crisp up, though. A very light oil spray and hot oven, probably.

472. Start new job tomorrow. Am excited and nervous.

473. says

So much for caring about safe spaces and all that

You don’t get to put that on me, nope. I tried to put together safe spaces, and acted as the janitor when people tried to shit in them — and got howls of protest that I dared to do so.

So you guys get to clean it up on your own now.

474. says

Ing,
The best of luck with the new job.

475. ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ says

pentatomid, it’s a fine request. I would love it if I didn’t have to read people talking about me here on TET.

476. dysomniak, darwinian socialist says

Anarchy!

(No, I don’t have anything more useful to contribute at the moment.)

477. Owlmirror says

I saw the long list of unread new comments, and instead of actually scanning them, I did this magical thing of simply selecting all and marking as read.

I guess I should submit my bug report @#315/815 above by e-mail?

Or have you given up on web site maintenance as well?

478. Ogvorbis says

Boy has returned from Maine.

Lobster was \$3.49 a pound.

He brought a container of hickory smoked sea salt from a salt works in Marshfield, ME.

I love smoked salt. I can use less of it and still get a shittonne of flavour.

For instance:

Two half-racks of baby back ribs (pork)

mix together
2 tablespoons hickory smoked salt
1 teaspoon granulated garlic
1 tablespoon sweet paprika
3 tablespoons raw sugar
1 tablespoon ground black pepper
a dash of savory, ground coriander, cumin, chili powder, and ground chipotle (each)

Rub the dry mix over the ribs, top, bottom, and in any cracks.

Lay down a piece of aluminum foil on your grill. Set the grill so it maintains a temperature of 180 to 190F. Yes, less than 200F.

Lay the ribs on the foil, close the lid, and leave it for about three hours. Do not let the temperature climb. The ribs should turn a nice deep red colour.

Remove the ribs. Remove the foil (and dispose of any oil still on the foil).

Put the ribs back on, meaty side down, close the grill lid, and leave it for about 20 minutes.

Remove the ribs. Turn up the heat until the temperature reaches about 300F. Coat both sides with a good sweet BBQ sauce. Place the ribs on the grill with the meaty side up, close the lid, and maintain the 300F temperature. When the BBQ sauce has become thick (the thickness of, say, hoisin sauce), pull the ribs and enjoy with some pasta, a salad, and a good summer ale.

479. David Marjanović says

No, I’m not.