I’d like to know the names of the two boys who took advantage of an inebriated minor who was passed out at a party: they apparently assaulted her while she was unconscious, took pictures of the attack with their cell phones, and sent them around to their friends. I guess this was their idea of bragging. I’d like to know because I never want to have anything to do with them, ever.
Their victim, Savannah Dietrich, posted their names after they were found guilty of felony sexual abuse, but as part of the deal, was told that she was not allowed to ever mention their names in public. So they were found guilty, given a slap on the wrist, and then protected from the social stigma of being abusers. I guess the judge didn’t think they were quite so naughty that they deserved to be shunned from civilized company, or that the public didn’t deserve to know who these little monsters were.
After revealing their identities, Dietrich was threatened with 6 months in prison and a $500 fine (that charge has been dropped, fortunately). That was news: that the victim of sexual abuse could face greater penalties than the two jerks who took advantage of her. And it is now all over the web.
But here’s the strange thing: in all of these serious stories, especially the ones praising Dietrich for her bravery in coming forth with the details of the crime against her, none of them dare to name the two felons. Everywhere we have people talking about the victim, Savannah Dietrich, and we know her name well…but the criminals still remain sheltered by the major media and it’s tough to find them (but not too hard!), despite Dietrich’s stand. It’s weird.
Shouldn’t Austin Zehnder and Will Frey be far more notorious than Savannah Dietrich? Although Dietrich should be more widely recognized for her courage.
scnumbers – everyone is on a really thin hair trigger here right now. Please stop and think twice before you comment, ok? It’s fine to just stop and read for awhile and process it without commenting, if you don’t want to step in anything accidentally.
sc_alphanumeric string;
We’re not talking about children though, are we? We’re talking about 17 year olds who are functionally adults in most respects and who are certainly old enough to know what they were doing and take responsibility for it.
We’re talking about the personal safety of other girls/women who may come into contact with Austin Zehnder and Will Frey. Don’t you think they have a right to know that these arseholes are not safe to be around? Don’t you think those young women have a right to access information that could help them avoid being raped? Statistically, we know rapists are repeat offenders – that’s why the US has a sex offender registry. How does being 17 instead of 18 magically make a difference?
Ugh, sundown towns.
I’ve driven through Cullman, Alabama. Not a pretty sight. I’ve seen the sign with my own eyes. Being a POC, I didn’t drive through at night.
[meta]
Privilege.
I wasn’t making an analogy, I was pointing out that whichever dillweed I was replying to was inappropriately using data that showed recidivism into criminality due to lack of rehabilitation in jails & lack of reintegration after release. Unless Zehnder and Frey find themselves so shunned by society they’ll be forced to join a street gang to make a living, these data most likely don’t apply to them and they are not more likely to rape again as a result of being convicted of it & known for it.
(By the way, sc-numbers, I think that you’ve put a foot wrong here but still have the capacity and desire to learn. I’m just trying to show you how I think that you’re wrong. This subject has a sharpening effect on my tone, but I don’t really feel like apologizing for that.)
Have spent all afternoon reading comments off and on. Have consumed wine. Not many people will read this far. So, maybe it’s time to overshare.
No. It is not better to not remember what happened.
I was 6/7 when my father abused me. (No, there was no penetration (at least I think not), so according to some, it wasn’t rape (snort).)
Being a child with limited emotional resources, I coped by disassociating while it was happening and by blocking the memories (my Catholic mother taught me to say prayers every time I had an unpleasant thought – I prayed a lot.) It worked so well that I mostly forgot what had happened (although I retained my fear of my father.)
But I had odd flashbacks. I remember the vivid image of an adult penis that I got during sex education class. It was quite disturbing. I wondered how and when I’d seen such a thing (no such images were provided in class). The “breakthrough” came for me when I finally encountered an uncircumcised penis (rare in my generation)- reality now matched my memories. That’s what it looked like! That’s how it responded when he made me touch it. (ICK!)
50+ years later my memories are still incomplete. I know someone walked in on us. I think it was one of my brothers but my memory goes blank as the door opens. I vividly remember saying “no” once and knowing that I would pay for it and would never be allowed to say “no” again but I have no memory of what happened. I still have only “snapshots” of the actual abuse.
It’s horrible not knowing. It makes it impossible to prepare for triggers – like that poor guy with the uncircumcised penis. It makes it impossible to share what happened knowing that people will doubt you because you don’t have all the details.
I tried to initiiate a conversation, once, with the brother who I think saw what was going on and his response was – “I don’t know anything about that”. Denial or am I mistaken? He would have only been 12 or 13 at the time so might not have known what he was seeing and it’s unfair of me to expect it to have made the impression on him that it made on me or ??? See how hard it is to know what to feel about important people in one’s life when one doesn’t know what happened.
But the worse of not remembering are all the years between the abuse and that guy with the uncircucised penis who made me sure of the basics of what had happened. I spent years unsure of what was real. Not just the abuse but everything. How could I trust my memories of anything? How could I trust my own brain? Thank dog for math and science and the scientific method which taught me that there were ways to know what was real.
I also experienced date rape (childhood sexual abuse primes one for date rape.) I remember every detail. And yes, I was injured in the rape (so, perhaps it actually counts as rape in the minds of some fuckwits). I assure you, it is easier to cope with the vivid date rape memories than the disjointed memories of childhood abuse.
Fact of the matter is: Austin Zehnder and Will Frey were duly found (after due process) of being guilty of felony sexual abuse.
Also a fact, the judge decided that this should not become public knowledge.
(Prove me wrong, anyone)
well no. the US has a sex offender registry for the same reason it has three strikes laws: because “tough on crime” gets one elected.
sc numbers:
Yes, rapists are accepted back into society. Many rapists get PRAISED for what they did. Many rapists get people apologizing on their behalf for the way they were treated. Many rapists have rape apologists come out of the sewers to dismiss their victims.
Rape is *ostensibly* a heinous crime in our country. In reality, it is not treated as seriously as it should be. Not by a long shot.
Uh huh. Well, consider this your first lesson in Internet Thread-Fighting: people who are angry about the things you are saying are not going to appreciate you telling them to not be so angry.
Second lesson might be about learning why people are angry about your defense of the rapists in this thread even though you did not rape anyone personally in this scenario. It has to do with rapists’ perception of the acceptability of their crimes being affected by the people in their social circle willing to rationalize rape in certain circumstances, the way you are doing right now by characterizing it as the action of “two stupid, drunken children” that shouldn’t incur any serious penalties.
Are you high or stupid?
I agree. You’re very bad at being a person. Try something easier, like a raddish
positivevorticityadvection, you are helping others; I, for one, believe you.
(I am aware of false-memory syndrome, BTW, but you trip no triggers and flag no flags.
And thank you for speaking out. Really!)
Morales: Pretty much, yeah. Whitebread slacker who never had to worry about a damn thing. Which is all starting to catch up with me.
Carlie: Thanks for not being terrifying. I sometimes wonder if this is why Rush Limbaugh gets away with making feminists out to be shrieking, hypersensitive harpies–it can come off that way if you’re sheltered enough to not notice what you did to set them off.
Mythbri: None needed. I understand the emotions involved as well as anyone who hasn’t had it happen to them can. Lot of friends who use me as their crying shoulder.
Jadehawk: I didn’t expect a critic of that set of laws to come around here.
most people here actually are critics of the “tough on crime” bullshittery. however it’s ignorant to say that the US system is tough on every crime (or on every criminal). In some cases, perpetrators do get away with a slap on the wrist; which is what’s going on here.
@Jonathan
If you mean Jadehawk’s reference to the sex offender registry, then you can count me as a critic as well. Things that sound like a good idea in theory can come off terribly in execution, and I think that the sex offender registry is one of them.
However, that is different than allowing a victim to talk about what happened to her, without the court dictating which details she can disclose. It’s not slander, and it’s not libel – it’s the truth. She should be able to speak the truth.
The main problem with current rape law is that anything that could possibly be construed as a gray area, that doesn’t push certain racial-prejudice buttons (and not others), is generally prosecuted only if society is dragged into it kicking and screaming.
If they can’t tell it’s wrong by 17, I doubt much will change over the course of just a few years.
Also, in regards to “children” not planning stuff like that?
I had a boyfriend when I was 15 who had turned into a serial rapist by the time he was 18. Three of his girlfriends after me accused him of rape.
Tony: I really had no idea people were so cavalier about it–I really am a sheltered little white boy, I guess. All those incoherent youtube comments suddenly seem both less surprising and more creepy. Is it normal to have trouble breathing when you think about this?
Ing: What? A kid can’t rape an adult–at least, that’s what I always thought. The responsibility lies with the grownup, no matter the circumstances–I take it you know something I don’t?
or to put it differently: you’re probably more likely to end up on the sex offender registry for being an adult teen and having consensual sex with a partner whose parents hate you than you are for committing an actual rape. sometimes it seems that sex is more of a violation of social mores in this country than rape is.
Who gives a flying fuck what their intent was?
They raped somebody, and they did it so casually as to take pictures and fucking distribute them.
I personally would be fine with them having to get rapist tattooed across their face. If they successfully manage to not rape anyone after five years they may have laser surgery to have the tattoo removed. I think rapists should get every opportunity to experience shame, and deep revulsion. Maybe they can spend some time vomiting and shaking in terror? A panic attack now and then would be an especially fitting bit of irony.
It seems only fair.
/mostly snark
I’m sure Dominique Strauss-Kahn and Roman Polanski are suffering horribly for their rapist ways.
Fuck right off shitchunk3000, enablers are such fucking, loser, horrible, excuses for humans.
…
No you’re wrong. You have clearly NEVER thought.
I think I get the picture now… I’m sorry for assuming these guys weren’t gonna get away with it. And the further up the thread I go, the more I understand how messed up people can get.
Dear Vile Human Being,
I apologize. Your inability to understand English is a misfortune, and I shouldn’t make fun of it.
Johnathan: Read the links on the feminist link roundup at the Pharyngula wiki. Your questions will be answered there in rather more detail than you ever wanted to know.
@Jonathan-
What if the kid drugged the adult? Still the adult’s fault?
the difference between a 17-year-old and an 18-year-old is not that between a kid and an adult. Non-stupidity-driven laws therefore have a 2-3 year buffer-zones for statutory rape claims, so that a 19-year-old and a 17-year-old can have normal, consensual teen sex without being sent to prison for it.
all of this however is a derail of the topic at hand. Zehnder and Frey were not on trial for statutory rape
@Jonathan
I think that you’re placing too much emphasis on the relatively minor distinction between being 17 and being 18. Please see my comment #498 on the previous page of comments – I cited Kentucky law, which said nothing about holding a non-consensual adult liable if sexually assaulted by someone under 18.
It’s awful to think that someone, or two someones, have the capacity to prey on their peers, but that doesn’t make it untrue.
Or what if the adult is physically weak/vulnerable and the “kid” is extremely strong, physically? Still the adult’s fault?
@Moutyb
No no no no no. I don’t think the links can address the fact that Johnny apparently thinks that if a 17 year old rapes a 18, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50 etc year old woman then the elder party is the ones that is tried for rape.
@Jadehawk
I wasn’t criticizing you. I was just trying to elaborate on the connotation that can be evoked by misusing the wrong data in the wrong context.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
FFS is NEVER would have been the adults fault. I can’t honestly imagine the insanity fo someone thinking they should try a rape victim because of the rape victims AGE
Ing, I was pointing out that there are crazier laws on the books than the one where you magically turn from a cherubic innocent into a responsible adult at a particular date. I’m sorry if I’m not good at communicating these things.
@Ing
In arguments related to domestic violence, I’ve seen people claim that there are (U.S.) laws in place that require the police officers responding to the call to arrest the man in the situation, regardless of who was assaulting whom.
I’ve seen lots of claims, but I haven’t been able to find a single example of such a law.
There are a lot of misconceptions out there.
sc_numbers:
Talk less.
Lurk more.
Read/process/comprehend what people are saying.
If you don’t know enough about a topic, don’t post about it until you do.
@Jonathan
It’s quite possible and unless I’m seriously mistaken, has happened where minors have raped adults. We don’t fucking try the adults for statutory rape for being fucking raped. Even our system isn’t that insane.
I know, Ing… neither can I. The obtuseness on Jon’s part is rather astounding, isn’t it?
I don’t see how other MRA stupidity excuses this set
that’s another thing. good statutory rape laws exist to protect minors from abuse of a power-differential, and thus do note who forced whom. the one mythbri cited on the other page says “Knowingly induces, assists, or causes”, which a victim can’t do.
Mind you, given the victim-blaming in general, that doesn’t stop the “justice” system from abusing such laws, but that’s a question of rape culture, not of laws that define statutory rape as any and all sexual contact between an adult and a minor, with the adult defined as the perpetrator
ah, ok
I can’t recall where I heard that, now that I think about it (yes, yes, I know, har de har), which really should have been a tipoff that I needed to do more research. But it did make sense to me–a good way to keep some scumbag from tying a case up in questions of who initiated what the way that adult rape cases often get. Child predators (predators of children, in case I need to clarify) can be very good at coercing… nevermind. I was wrong anyway, and I don’t need any more brilliant, traumatized ladies pissed at me because I hit somebody else’s trigger.
Because you’re a fucking idiot.
Oh shut the fuck up you patronizing, git. I’m mad at you because you’re ungodly stupid.
For some reason, this comic comes to mind.
@Caerie
Explanation?
I think the one thing that’s rapidly becoming clear to me is that our age of consent laws need to get reconfigured. If a minor can do these things, he shouldn’t be a minor–the law doesn’t exist to protect people like this, especially not from their own victims.
As much as I love America and the friendly people in it, there are a few things that I struggle to comprehend about the society here as a foreigner. Its not the stupid non-metric system here, or why the back wheels of shopping carts don’t turn.
This rape-and-punishment thread is one of those: rather than a sharp-but-polite debate, it becomes an emotional and hyper-polarized exchange between people that seemed normal only a moment ago. The entire political system appears to be paralyzed by the same problem: straw men denominations are all over the place, peppered with ad-hominem attacks (uhhh: some people pointed out to me here that there is apparently a fine distinction between ‘ad hominem’ and ‘an insult’).
The deeply rooted tendency for vigilante justice is another such wacko traditions here. There is a weird love for guns that justifies a deep mistrust of ‘them guvernment’ to carry out justice, even though it leads to 9x more deaths. The USA is seriously screwed up sexually and religiously, leading to teenage pregnancy rates that are many times higher than the civilized world. Rather than fixing the root problem, they attack the symptoms: attempt to ban abortions and stick record numbers of people in prison.
And when extremist Christians feel that abortion is murder some of them take the law in their own hand by publishing the names and addresses of abortion doctors. This is both a shame and a threat strategy.
And today the euber-liberal and generally thoughtful PZ Myers is continuing this medieval vigilante tradition by publishing the names of rapists: taking the law in his own hand by publicly shaming two juveniles. PZ aided in moving the sentencing and punishing over an internet mob, rather than by the rule of law that has a process (however flawed) to deal with this horrible crime. Its OK to be angry about a legal outcome, its just not OK to take punishment in your own hands if you don’t agree with a particular case’s outcome. Just change the law in that case, don’t make up your own just like the faitheists.
I’m baffled how few people here think it through and understand what this means for individual freedom and fairness. Is it too much to ask for a mature discussion on appropriate punishment for each crime and stick to that? Something that includes anger over the victim’s rape, but also includes impartial justice by a trained professional? And fair justice that is the same every time it is applied, and not dependent on whether it is on the radar of some bloggers.
America (“the country of the free”) is built on letting people re-invent themselves over and over again: you can easily start over after a bankruptcy, you can change your name, and heck there isn’t even a public record of who lives here. And you can start all over when you served your time in prison. Lets think a little before taking that right away.
@Caerie
LOL! Thanks for linking. The heroic pose at the end broke me.
That is not at all the lesson you should be learning. You’re trying to deflect blame now.
well that’s sort of the thing: the law per se didn’t. the judge ordered something that they didn’t really have the right to do, since the law says you’re not supposed to spread info learned in court.
positivevorticityadvection:
I’m so sorry for what you went through.
Thank you for sharing that with us.
Did someone not close the idiot pen!?
Ing: She’s trying to say that I thought I was more of a feminist than I was. Which isn’t quite the case–I was just unclear on how much of a full-time job it is to be one.
Ing:
The rape culture Jonathan here keeps stumbling over, coupled with his “oh you brilliant ladies” commentary.
do you need it tattooed on the inside of your eyelids before you notice that the people you’re whining about aren’t all Americans?
@neuzelaar
No one gives a shit or wants to hear your wankings on America
Neuzelaar’s back, I see, with nothing new to say.
@Jadehawk
And it’s not fucking vigilante justice. This is beyond moronic.
@neuzelaar
Thanks – really – for refraining from comparing this situation to lynching. I appreciate it.
I think that you might find that there’s a lot in your last comment that people here agree with, but I also think that the reason that you’re so confused by the reactions in this thread is that you don’t have a fundamental understanding of the underlying cause. In this case, rape culture. You might find it helpful to educate yourself on the subject, to see if you might gain some insight.
OH HORSESHIT! It’s the same fucking comment as before! He just used vigilante justice in lei of lynching
Ing: I already learned that one–teenagers can be horrifying sexual predators, and the law shouldn’t protect them just because they’re young. Now I’m piecing together other things I should take from this experience. Like how fast your worldview can change–that Neuzwhatever guy is pretty much saying the same thing I was, and now I see he’s a jackass if not worse.
it’s not a “fine” distinction, it’s a chasm. an ad hominem is a fallacious attempt to invalidate someone’s argument by attaching its validity to the character of the person making it. an insult is just an insult, and isn’t a fallacy
I cannot fathom what you think this has to do with the commenters here; or even with the USAmerican commenters here.
your authoritarianism continues to be noted. it’s not immoral to disobey an unjust law, you dolt.
This isn’t about the fucking juvenile justice system (which should exist).
@Ing
I know. Baby steps. Or in this case, perhaps fetus steps.
Jonathan:
If you’re a human being with more than an ounce of empathy for others?
Yes, it is completely normal.
I’ve never been raped. I’ve never had any experience comparable to rape.
Every time I read a story recounting someone’s rape or sexual assault, I have trouble breathing. I want to cry. Tears of anger. Unbridled anger.
I get mad.
I get really, really mad.
I want to break things (note: I don’t want to hurt anyone, just break non living objects things like dishes).
I will forever sympathize with and show compassion for anyone who has been the victim of sexual assault.
*has inappropriate visions of vigilante justice with leis*
“in lieu” is probably what you meant
Caerie: I’m sorry if I sounded patronizing or condescending–I meant what I said. It’s rare I run into people so much smarter than me, and I’m thankful you opened my eyes a little more. And I hope I’ll never make quite as much of a fool of myself, but I know myself too well. Sometimes I think I only learn by being humiliated in a debate–that’s how I became a skeptic in the first place.
This thread is a revelation in the most horrifying way possible.
No exaggeration, no hyperbole for effect—I just came back from the bathroom. I threw up. That has never happened to me before from merely reading something. I’ve come close, I’ve been nauseated, but I’ve never had to literally run to the toilet so I didn’t puke all over my lap on the couch.
After reading Tethys’ experience (no criticism of you, Tethys, god knows—much love) and learning what “body betrayal” was (and having some reflections on my own rape as a teenager) it started.
Reading the excuse-making and the cold-blooded lack of one 1/100th of giving a fucking shit from the apologists put me over the edge. My toilet thanks you, gentleman. It got its weekly bleaching and wipe down early.
Thank you, reasonabel, quidam, jimharrisonm, and neuzelaar. I’m very grateful to have my first “triggered” experience.
And for “grateful,” read: I hate you so much I’m going to spend the next several days fantasizing about beating you to a godamn pulp. Bastards.
Judges fuck up all the time. We have a fucking appeals process. We have civil disobedience.
This was civil disobedience. She said she was prepared to face the legal consequences and drew attention to an unjust law. She did. People agreeing with her doesn’t fucking make it vigilante justice.
Besides, as shown above (you fucking idiot) there’s good reason to think this decree was unconstitutional. I’m not sure how you can say that it’s wrong to break a law that is itself illegal!
Jonathan:
There is hope for you. You’re far closer to a human being than jimharrison who needs to fuck off and hug a cactus while ramming a decayed porcupine up his ass.
Tony: Yeah. Good. Now, I assume this urge to punch somebody should be directed at myself in this instance?
*pictures Tom Selleck and Charles Bronson looking all badass in Hawaiian prints*
I disagree with most vigor (i.e. BULLSHIT! FUCK THAT NOISE). He’s not going to learn if you coddle him as a special snow flake. He doesn’t earn a cookie for doing just about jack shit I can’t even understand why you’d say that’s even an improvement?
Like many a great skeptic I stand 100% behind every one of my misstatements.
Josh: I’m so sorry.
@Jonathan
Try channeling your anger into action – speak up. Be part of the solution.
@Ing
Either neuzelaar responded to the criticism of the lynching “comparison”, or they plumb forgot to bring it up this time. I erred on the charitable side. I’m not planning to do it again, in their case.
The term I’ve been grasping at for days that describes the apologists just popped into my head. It’s a legal term but it’s a perfect descriptor in lay language: depraved indifference.
@Josh
I prefer “Aggravated Ignorance”
@Josh and everyone else who was triggered by the thread
I’m sorry. I don’t know why people decide to be so obtuse to the point of making it this hard.
As someone who actually WAS a 17 year old at one point, the idea that they’re operating with significantly diminished capacity with regards to determining if rape is okay is ABSURD ON ITS FACE.
And as has been pointed out repeatedly there is basically NO chance they will repent if they’re allowed to get away with what they did.
SevenTEEN.
If they had been SEVEN your argument might hold some water. An ounce or so.
A seventeen year old isn’t a child, ffs.
Mouthyb—thank you, and don’t take this the wrong way (please), but I’m not looking for sympathy. Some small stupid part of me hopes that maybe just one more person’s real lived experiencewill make a dent in these fuckers’ thick heads and wake them up. That’s the only reason I said anything. It’s the only reason that, several months ago, I disclosed my own rape. Nothing special about my experience. Just a forlorn hope that somebody—anybody—will pause and reconsider. You know, maybe they can empathize with a dood.
Oh, who am I kidding. Anyone who gets fucked or gets raped is just a bitch anyway. No reason to waste theory of mind on a bitch.
by the way: using naming as “deterrence”, strictly speaking, is probably not going to work.
supporting victims when they stand up to silencing however can be a way to begin to weaken rape culture which encourages rapists.
so in this case “naming” is functioning as indirect deterrence, by weakening that which encourages. Not as direct deterrence of making potential rapists think twice lest their names and pictures become googleable with the word “rape”
@Josh and other survivors
You have my heartfelt sympathy.
It’s disheartening and gross to see these creeps spout their bullshit so vehemently.
neuzalaar:
We’re talking about rape you fucking sack of shit. It’s an emotional topic for many people. How the fuck can it be surprising that some people get triggered by this subject when morons like you make apologies for rapists and rape culture?
The subject of rape will never be “normal”.
BY ALL THE GODS OF MOUNT OLYMPUS do you ever educate yourself on anything? You shouldn’t need anyone to explain to you that you haven’t been the subject of an ad hominem attack. You’re clearly capable of typing. Go do a fucking google search and learn that there IS a substantial difference between the two.
What vigilante tradition?
You don’t even understand what you’re saying. How the hell are we supposed to?
PZ didn’t do anything other than mention the names of the two criminals that raped a young woman. Their names were already released to the public by their victim. Plus they wanted people to know who they were and what they did. If you had read anything about this heinous crime, you’d know that.
Let me repeat that:
THE TWO CRIMINALS–Austin Zehnder and Will Frey–WANTED PEOPLE TO KNOW WHO THEY ARE AND WHAT THEY DID.
Otherwise they wouldn’t have shared the pictures with others.
Once again, you’re trivializing rape. They raped Savannah, yet you keep acting like it’s just a juvenile transgression.
They deserve to be shamed.
Anyone who rapes another person deserves to be shamed.
No one, PZ included, has taken the punishment of these two rapists into their own hands. No one here gets to decide their punishment. However, in a vein much like the sex offender registry, the names of the rapists has been made public. It was not done by PZ. It was done by the rapists themselves.
By Odin, how can you be this obtuse?
Did you really just equate rape to bankruptcy? You are a pathetic scumbag, sack of shit who has successfully raised my anger to levels it hasn’t been at in a few months.
Fuck off.
Long walk on a short bridge.
Run off a cliff.
Hug a porcupine.
Stuff a cactus up your ass.
Whatever you do just go the fuck away.
Ing, I’m sticking with “depraved.” Because the attitude is depraved. It’s a moral obscenity and that’s the only word I can think of that captures it.
I’m just… I’m out of things to say. All that should come out of my mouth are apologies and there are only so many different ways, and not enough, to say I’m sorry for being such a fuckstick. Going to sleep on all this.
[meta]
Jonathan, thanks for getting it.
mythbri @75:
I don’t think Jonathan is there yet. I think he should simply stop talking and start learning. Once he has a better grasp on this subject, then he can slowly wade in. Right now, he’s dipped his pinkie toe into the deep end and doesn’t know how to swim.
See that you do. And take as long as you need to mull it over and reflect. Feel free to come back and ask questions-we all learn this way, and we’ve all been douches.
But be goddamn sure you make a good faith effort because if you don’t I’ll make sure you choke on that foot.
@Tony
You’re right – I should have been more specific. Jonathan identified himself as a man. I was thinking that it would be helpful for him to speak up around his friends. To listen to his female friends and let them know that he has their back, and to let his male friends know what kind of behavior is harmful. He needs to do some more learning before he can participate fully and effectively in a discussion like this, but he can get there if he wants to. Every little bit helps.
To put it another way, an ad hominem is using an insult as a premise.
Josh: I understand.
Reading some of the early comments… it struck me…
If the victim had been male–being sexually assaulted by two other males–would we still have the same “Oh the poor boys being labeled as rapists–that will follow them forever!” have been quite as present?
I mean–it seems like some people think this is okay to do to a woman.. but I wonder if the reactions would have been the same if the victim had been male…
I tend to doubt not…
A general comment to anyone defending these rapist bastards because they’re 17 years old (and forgive me if this has been brought up):
At 17, in many if not most states in the US, you can hold a hunting license, firearms permit and driver’s license. At 17, you can own and operate firearms (whose sole intended purpose is to end the life of anything they’re pointed at) and motor vehicles (large, powerful machines whose irresponsible use kills thousands, usually by accident but occasionally with intent). At 17, you can even race cars in professional competition – you can drive a 600hp stock car at 200mph. In some states you can even get married – that is, enter freely into a binding legal contract – at 17 years old.
TL;DR:
At 17, as a “child”, you’re expected to be able to control cars and guns – two of the most deadly, yet legal and readily available items in the US.
Given that expected level of responsibility, why in the holy living FUCK should a “child” not be expected to control his PENIS, for crying the fuck out loud, without some fucking serious repercussions?
If a “child” intentionally shoots someone dead or runs them down with a car and are convicted, they’re called a murderer, their name is known. Noone really quibbles over it; noone cares too much about their privacy. They fucking killed someone for crying out loud!
But two festering arseholes intentionally and with forethought violate an unconscious teenage girl and disseminate photographic evidence of the crime and … all of a sudden people are leaping to defend their fucking anonymity?
What in the holy fuck?
NOT becoming emotional about RAPE is normal?
Go play with a dead echidna, neulazaar.
Now you know (partly) why I threw up.
Ohhh Josh.
*runs away*
Well, ONE such 17-year-old perpetrator, whose victim was male, not only suffered zero consequences of any kind, he’s now running for president of the USA.
Oh, Josh. *All the love I have to you.*
As well as to each and every person who manages to relate their experiences for the benefit of others, especially in the face of such loathsome disregard.
joshuakundert: It’s hard to quantify, but you could harden your stomach and look at the wailing about tarnishing Joe Paterno’s legacy, or the defenses of rape cover-ups in the Catholic church.
17 year olds who commit crimes of sufficient depravity can be treated, in the eyes of society, as adults, and tried as such.
As far as I am concerned, this is one such case.
@Josh 67
Sadly I’m going to have to echo basically everything you just said. Luckily not involving nausea and such mostly because I’ve just never been affected that way by things like this, but in revisiting past abuse and thinking about it more clearly.
I have to give a special thank you to Quidam (and I think reasonabel?), though. I have always tried to convince myself that the abuse I dealt with was not worth mentioning/talking about/feeling bad/etc. because it didn’t fit common archetypes of sexual abuse, i.e. violence, physical contact, or even feeling at the time that what was happening was bad (because I was 10 and he was, as is par for the course of child grooming fuckheads, charismatic) and therefor I would be trivializing the experiences of ‘real’ victims…
But after telling myself that I am not a ‘real’ victim of abuse (and having such implied by my parents and explicitly stated by a psychologist years later) for years, somehow Quidam doing the exact same thing with victims of rape, and whoever-it-was saying that calling yourself a victim when you’re ~not really~ trivialized ~actual~ victims put me over the edge into ‘fuck you you other people don’t get to decide if something affected me’ territory.
And now I’m thinking about all of what I went through and realizing that the only reason I felt that this wasn’t a big deal was because I repressed thinking about it, and because I had no opportunities to talk about it because my parents did not want it to ever be spoken of again.
So a big fuck you to those two.
(As much as I will admit that I am slightly, bittersweetly grateful because this is the first time I’ve ever given the abuse that I dealt with more thought than ‘you don’t get to get pissed off and be triggered by your experience, that’s for real victims’. Of course, this is ‘grateful’ in a very, very goddamned loose sense)
…christ. /long tangential rant
Pardon me? You have the nerve to castigate every person in this thread who has related their personal experience with assault and rape for having feelings about that? And then you wish to imply we aren’t normal?
I’ll tell you who isn’t normal, Cupcake – you. You’re one broken, fucked up, ugly monster inside. There’s nothing wrong with us, we’re the ones who have the strength enough to keep on living, we’re the ones who feel compassion and care for others, we’re the ones fighting the good fight. Every single day. You? You’re demonstrating just how ugly a human being can be.
[meta]
I see such as positivevorticityadvection who have delurked to speak out, and my sincere sympathy goes to them, and I feel some vicarious pride in being part of someplace that will allow them to get some mental succour)
(I have not failed to progress some on the humanity axis by my presence here; thanks, everyone)
@Grimalkin, 102:
Don’t apologise. People like Quidam need to be told “fuck you” and told it as often as is needed for them to pull their oblivious, thick fucking heads out of their arses. Or at least for them to realise that other people aren’t going to tolerate their obtuse bullshit.
Indeed. I usually don’t have much to add to these discussions, but that’s fine. Being here adds to my humanity.
Grimalkin:
Not at all. Your post was pertinent to the subject at hand. I am so sorry for what you went through, Grimalkin. You certainly aren’t alone. A great many victims felt the same way you did. It can make recovery a very long process indeed.
I’m in my 50s and it took me most of my life to come to terms with years I was raped as a child. What you went through had subtlety to it, and that can often be worse to deal with. Don’t for one second think that it wasn’t abuse, however. And a pox on all those who tried to silence you.
Okay, I can’t sleep.
Amphiox: Are you talking about the business with Mitt Romney tackling a kid and cutting his hair? And I don’t mean to minimize what that must have felt like–I just read an account of what happened and it’s effecting me a bit. I just don’t know if there’s more to the story, or if you’re focusing on that element.
YOU DUMB FUCK. It was a brutal fag bashing. If you can’t bring yourself to describe it as it is then shove that foot down your duodenum.
Jeezis.
Jonathan:
Can I recommend-since you can’t go to sleep- the Pharyngula wiki? You’ll find many links that can be helpful in advancing your learning.
In fact, because you seem to want to learn, here:
What is rape culture?
Josh: Like I said, I’m not minimizing what he did! I’m not exactly a white-picket-fence kind of guy myself, and I think he’s scum–worse, disingenuous, evasive scum who won’t even own his own hateful words. But Amphiox seemed like he was saying that Romney raped the boy, which made me wonder if I hadn’t heard the whole story. That’s all–I just wanted to make sure I wanted him tarred and feathered for the right reasons.
[meta]
What Josh wrote: It was a brutal fag bashing.
I would suggest spending less time insisting this and more time thinking about why people have the opposite impression.
Ah, OK. Johnathan. I understand. And I’m on a hair trigger. My apologies.
probably. homophobia and misogyny rarely go separate ways, and male victims of male rapists do often get thought of as by definition somehow gay
[OT]
Jonathan:
Not rape, just gender-wounded assault, and the sexuality thereof was implicit: The Romney’swounded macho pride needed appeasing to salve his tribal status.
(Weakness, that is. A true man would not feel threatened by another’s masculinity)
I think I have a tendency to forget what things are in my head and what things are in everyone else’s, if that makes any sense. It’s probably an Asperger’s thing.
Morales: Ahh, I understand.
Jade: Probably to do with the way people seem to think that rape changes your sexuality. I remember back on a fanfiction-snarking community in the mid-oughts, we spent a week giggling over Anne McCaffrey making some remark about gay sex literally causing hormonal changes that turned men homosexual. Her source for this was an acquaintance of hers who was involved in… something… and then discovered he enjoyed actual, consensual sex with men. It was all very silly until I found out that men try to “cure” lesbians with… The whole human race is insane, aren’t we? How did we get to this place? Or have we always done this and we’re just now noticing that it’s wrong?
Do you actually have Asperger’s?
[meta + OT + metaphor + borrowing]
Rising apes, are we, not fallen angels.
(Apologies to the late Douglas Adams)
—
Yes, we’ve always done this, and we’re only just noticing it’s wrong.
(Primitives, we remain)
Jonathan:
Yes to the last question – thank fuck for instant global communication. We have always acted like bastards toward each other, but aforementioned IGC allows us to broadcast such bastardry with unprecedented speed and clarity. Awareness of such bastardry, on balance, prevents it. I hope?
To the second question: bollocksed if I know, but having evolved from less-introspective and less-empathetic creatures by no means implies we’ve finished evolving.
To the first question: it’s all relative. Being prone to depression, anger control issues and general emotional instability I’m only as insane as I know other people aren’t. But I could be wrong about them.
Azky: Yeah, I know, I’m, like, that one aspie out of a thousand who actually has a formal diagnosis. I had it before it was cool, too–nobody in my school district had ever heard of it before I passed through the system, and they apparently still remember me.
John: That’s… better than the alternative. I was actually crying for a second there. It just sort of clicked.
For the good order I have added Will Fry and Austin Zehnder’s pictures onto my skydrive.
Me too. That explains a bit.
@ mythbri #33 (this page)
I think the source of this urban myth is that there are directions given the to police, short of straight up statutory laws, that require the police to lay charges if they reasonably believe there has been an assault between a couple. They lay charges even if the victim says xe does not want to.
The reasoning is that if someone already assaulted lays charges, then the other spouse will likely beat or talk them out of it. If the victim has to be determined to proceed, then it is possible for the aggressor to stop the whole thing by terrorizing the victim even more. If the police lay the charge, then the case goes ahead and cannot be stopped by the aggressor. Also, the victim can say to the aggressor, “I didn’t do that, the police did.” Again, the hope is to take pressure off the victim, but get the case into the system so something can be done. This is particularly important in domestic situations because often couples remain entangled long after an assault. There may be children whose rights need to be independently assessed. There may be financial entanglements. That sort of complexity usually does not arise where someone hits someone on the street.
I saw it working for years, and overall it seemed better than it was before. It did tend to re-direct some of the aggressor’s hostility away from the victim.
There was not a single word about always charging the guy. Not one.
And possibly overgeneralization from experiences like mine. When I had occasion to call the police after my ex-wife assaulted me in front of our daughter during an argument about money, the officer who showed up – despite the fact that I had made the call for my and my daughter’s protection – treated me completely unprofessionally and with open contempt until after he’d talked to her and she’d babbled enough to incriminate herself. I wound up not pushing charges, but the experience was appalling and fairly frightening.
That’s just one case, though… :/
I sometimes forget that other people don’t know what’s going on in my head–so the more fundamental the value (ie “Mitt Romney is a plutocratic scuzzwad who can correctly pronounce ‘dressage’ and therefore should be pinched violently by a nun every time he tries to act like the common man,” “rape is a horrible thing to do to somebody for reasons completely unrelated to her value as marriage material,” and “Jews are perfectly nice people who should only be punched if they really deserve it”), the more likely it is that I’ll forget to even indicate I have it to others. I swear to God, a few weeks ago, I was simultaneously arguing with a neo-Nazi who thought I was a Zionist for believing that 9/11 and the Holocaust happened, and a Zionist who thought I was a neo-Nazi because I disapproved of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians and African and Arab jews.
We’re reaching the point where I think there need to be compulsory classes in empathy and understanding privilege.
Here’s a clue: if, like me, you’ve been fortunate enough to not have ever been raped, threatened with rape, molested, abused and so forth, you aren’t allowed to tell other people how they should feel about their experience, and especially not insist they don’t ‘get all emotional’ when discussing it.
Jesus fuck. I’m not that great at empathy myself, but I fucking well know that much.
I suspect/hope what you mean to say here is that “Jews are just like everyone else”?
Wasn’t that Terry Pratchett’s line?
(Who ATEN’T DEAD yet?)
Josh
Much love right back. I hate that the assholes triggered you.
It is because of stories like yours (and other wonderful horde members) that I could even make that post.
I note that Quidam has not had anything to say since we demolished his rape apologia. I hope he is too mortified to speak right now, but eventually summons up enough moral fiber to post an apology.
Grimalkin
*hugs* If you want them.
I am completely fed-up with the common misconception that rape is a rare violent act committed by racial minorities and prison escapees who lurk in dark alleys and parking ramps.
The truth is that the vast majority of rapes don’t follow any of those tropes.
Congratulations on reaching the “fuck you, people who enable this shit” stage.
Creepy.
(Goes back to reading.)
Azky: Precisely. And thus to be punched or not punched on their own merits.
@ Azkyroth
I agree. I was concentrating so hard on not accidentally putting in gender while protesting that it isn’t in the directives, that I forgot that aspect of it. Years ago, police didn’t treat any assault between couples as being a crime unless it was so extreme that it would have been shocking not to. If a woman turned up dead, if a man had slashed limbs, then the police would act.
Over the years, I did not see a case where a man had been assaulted by a woman, so I wondered over and over how many men silenced themselves. I did handle cases where clearly the more powerful personality was the woman’s. She was the engine driving the relationship. If the male in that couple had turned up with bruises or more, who would I think did it?
I am sorry to hear that you had to deal with the assault and the police, too. That’s just so unfair. I hope you are in a better place now.
Slightly. And thanks.
I think you get what I was trying to get across, though I lost sight of it in recalling and second-guessing my phrasing…from my experience with the police and my previous experience with, for instance, my elementary school’s sexual harassment policy (which explicitly recognized sexual harassment solely as conduct of boys towards girls), and what I saw of authority figures’ attitudes in general, I found the “must arrest the man” thing completely credible when I first heard it and repeated it a couple times, probably here. I doubt I’m the only one with experiences like this. :/
I haven’t read this whole thread yet but wanted to say to positivevorticityadvection:
Thanks for telling your story. The more of us who speak up, the harder it is for rapists and our rape-enabling culture to get away with what is the closest thing I think a person can get to murder without actually killing someone.
Body memories can be really difficult to deal with. I’ve had many that arose completely out of the blue: moments that I did not remember suddenly physically reincarnated, sending me into panicked flashbacks at times when they really were not wanted or expected. Not that they are ever wanted, but sometimes they can be anticipated to a degree.
There are, as I am sure you know already, lots of survivors reading and posting here. I only point it out to underscore the sense of community that is growing here. I hope you stay. I wouldn’t call Pharyngula a safe space, exactly, but there can be something comforting in watching all these people vociferously demanding that our experiences be respected, listened to, and taken seriously.
Now I will read the rest of the thread. Or I might fall asleep and read it in the morning.
Oh wait. It is morning.
Later today.
Even though she was unconscious when it happened? Fuck you! You really need to cite references if you’re going to claim shit like that.
@ all who have talked about the abuse they have suffered,
It is overwhelming to read of what each of you has survived and it is humbling to see how capable and strong you all are. I know, because some of you have said so, that you don’t always feel strong or capable. Your refusal to stay silent, nevertheless, your refusal to shut off your own emotions, is awe inspiring.
I wish I did have something I could do or say that would really help. All I can do is thank you for speaking up, because by speaking, you bring forward reality. The reality so many would like to have vanish, because it is truly shocking to think of it. It demands that people work towards changing it. So much easier, they seem to be saying, if we all just forget about it and don’t fuss. No wonder survivors react to such self-centred smug depraved indifference.
Thank you all for speaking. Please don’t stop if it is any way of help to you. I deeply admire you all. As others have said, it’s a point of pride to be part of a place that might help.
positivevorticityadvection @5(505) Thank your for sharing your experiences, it takes courage to do so in an open forum despite the anonymity inherent in using a nym.
I believe you.
My own experience with abuse was purely emotional, he never laid a hand on me. Or, at least to the best of my memory he didn’t. And yet I too only have snapshots of individual incidents and once had to quite forcefully tell a therapist to stop digging for physical abuse for which I had no memory.
I believe you.
This is a safe space to come forth with these things. And damn those who tries to make it less so. Fuck anyone who whines and moans and carries on about “freethought bullies” silencing free speech. Their right to say demonstratively harmful crap does not outweigh your right to break the silence that smothers these topics. Every story told, every voice heard, every light shone into the millennia long blackened night of abuse that is rape culture is a triumph to be celebrated.
So, Thank you positivevorticityadvection, and thank you to everyone who’s spoken up about their experiences.
I’ve heard you; I believe you.
I cherish your courage and the insight you’ve brought to this discussion. May you all find peace and happiness in measures beyond imagining.
Neuzelaar, you’re doing it all wrong. There’s no room here for ‘geneuzel’. The idea on this forum is that you endorse the blog post or be prepared to be drowned in vitriol.
You were probably hoping for a more generalized discussion about the pros and cons of naming and shaming teenage offenders and tarring them for the rest of their lives. You would have been fine if the subject had been theft or murder but unfortunately for you, the subject is sexual assault and that means that the resident commenters get to pounce on you. It doesn’t matter that you have unequivocally denounced the perpetrators; the whole idea that you are giving any thought at all to what happens to these delinquent teenagers in the future is enough to brand you as a “rape enabler”. Mind you: one or two more comments from you and you will be labelled a rapist yourself. As you rightly observed: there is no room for grey in this place. The same vindictiveness can be found in the CNN comment section.
You’re obviously a polite European, so my advice to you is that if you want to get any traction on this forum you will need to sprinkle your comments liberally with words such as “fuck”, “fucking”, “fucktard”, “fuckwad” and the like. This is the rigueur these days in rationalist circles, at least on this blog. (Cue: “tone troll”)
Perhaps you should also come up with a home-made string of French words in order to make your alias more credible. Here’s my prediction: start posting under the name of “Neuzelaar, Tigresse Indomitable de Fuckistan” and all the unemployed who’ve made this blog their home will love you.
This times a thousand.
Insensitive fuckwits on this thread notwithstanding, you’ll find support from many quarters here in Pharyngula.
@ bascule
Oh, gosh darn! Did people here fail to live up to your standards again! I’m shocked. Totalement.
Please let us know who it is who is forcing you and your friend to stay here in such an inferior place? We shall speak sharply to them in an effort to get you free.
*dabs eyes with hanky*
bascule,
Message from a polite European : fuck off.
———–
Important stuff now:
Just to repeat this.
bascule, that’s some impressively wrong bullshit you’ve got there. But since you’re here to troll, be dismissive, and stir up shit, being precisely the sort of callous, vile monster who does that in a thread where several rape survivors have already shared their stories and been triggered and been driven out of the thread by pieces of shit like the one you’re addressing, I see very little point in pretending anything you said was worthwhile.
I know, I know, for the lurkers, but seriously, lurkers? If you don’t see this kind of fuckhead and figure out for yourselves that hir coming in here to stir up shit at this point is fucking disgusting, I dunno, I’m not sure I could help you anyway.
bascule:
Fixed the fuck out of that mealy-mouthed troglodytic kum-bye-ah bullshit for you! Is there a reason you’re here, besides giving the locals a dressing-down?
Neuzalaar, advice: don’t roll into a long-lived neighbourhood with an established culture and tell other people that they’re “doing it wrong” just because it isn’t how YOU would do it. People here have tried to explain their positions to you – with varying degrees of politeness, admittedly – but you’ve more or less ignored them all and continued to wag your finger and scold them like a nanny. Take a step back and try and empathise. Try and appreciate the culture that exists here, and the undeniable societal and judicial culture of protecting sex offenders – but only if they happen to be white, privileged “kids” doing “silly shit”.
And Bascule, if you don’t like the atmosphere, there’s an easy remedy to that. Unless you’re an outrage junkie, in which case stick around, wag your little finger and prepare for another fix.
@ bascule
Hey polite european lurker here! Go fuck yourself idiot!
Can I ask what the hell are you doing here? If you’re even remotely familiar with the place, what’s with the outrage, and why did you feel obligated to post a comment that fucking clueless?
Of course I unserstand why you feel that correcting meanies on the internet would be important, especially since they are advocating “shaming” and tarring for life the reputation of teens who just did a little bit of sexual assault. You’re just delightful.
BTW, “Indomitable” isn’t a word but here is a string of French words for you: Tu n’es un belle ordure qui transpire la stupidité et tu ferais bien d’apprendre à fermer t’as gueule. Espèce de trou du cul.
*tu n’es qu’une belle ordure
<>
What have I ever done to you apart from disagreeing with you? Would you like to lock me up, freethinker?
*Delurking* Josh – *hugs*
Reading this helps restoring my faith that all of humanity is not utterly headfucked.
My story – maybe – later.
Thanks PZ and pharyngulites, the world needs this to be shouted….
*relurking*
bascule, from an impolite European, fuck off.
No, I would just like for you to fuck off. A rather benign request, don’t you think?
<>
Very succinct and I admire you for that, but eh why exactly?
what the fuck is with the random pointy brackets…?
You might find baiting people here entertaining and well, to each his own, but I’m not going to indulge you.
Fuck off.
Have to agree with not feeding the trolls. My game is downloaded now, so I’m off.
There’s a convicted pedophile living in the street I grew up in. Respected member of society. Still honorary president of a liberal charity.
Learn something. You’re probably one of those people who think that rape is something that happens in dark alleys and that then the cops swarm out to cath the evil rapist who is then heavily prosecuted. Wake up and smell the steaming pile of shit where most rapists are people the victim knew and trusted and where the rapists are treated as poor victims of evil women.
Johnathan
This has nothing to do with laws of consent (which can be very stupid). Minors can commit crimes, end of story. The fact that we acknowledge that their mental capacity doesn’t equal that of an adult doesn’t mean they can’t make meaningfull decisions.
neuzeelar
As a fellow European, let me give you a heartfelt fuck you. This has nothing to do with “polite discourse”, but all to do with a society that institutionally revictimizes rape-victims and pampers the rapists, unlike with any other crime.
Unless they’re white rapists, you fucking idiot.
Do you understand that one of them is an inocent citizen doing hir job while the other ones are convicted criminals?
Yes, we all understand that you prefer the victim to suffer more and more, ’cause bitches ain’t shit. We know that you’d be happy for her to go to jail should she tell a girl at a party that the boy who just gave her a drink is a rapist who rapes intoxicated women.
You mean like her freedom (like, first amendment rights) and fairness towards her not to re-victimize her for the rest of her life because she’s forbidden to talk about it?
What’s fair about that?
You’re fucking stupid. It’s been proven time after time again that judges aren’t fucking impartial. What do you think is the reason for the incredibly high incarceration rates of POC? Oh, and didn’t you complain about a second ago about how broken the US system is?
So, hey, what’s the problem?
Apart from this being bullshit, again.
They did not fucking TP their headmaster’s house and peed on his lawn. They raped somebody and they showed no fucking remorse when they passed the pictures round
positivevorticityadvection
I’m sorry for what you went through. Thank you for sharing. It does help.
Tony
This. I’ve never been raped either. I’ve had my shit including some very scary situation, but fortunately not the big things. And it makes me cautious, it makes me afraid, it made me afraid of my husband who is really, really, really not rapey.
Josh
I’m really sorry. (((hugs)))
joshuakundert
Probably it would have been the same. Being penetrated simply takes a man and plants him into the category of women, because only women are penetrated, men penetrate. So he gets a double-shaming for being a victim of rape. He betrayed patriarchy and manlieness by being a victim of a horrible crime.
Azkyroth
I’m sorry for what you and your daughter had to go through with your ex. I think it’s about the same thing as above: Real men aren’t victims of crimes that happen to women. Misogyny and patriarchy hurt men, too.
Hugs if you want them.
bascule
Just fuck off and take your hot air with you. So, sexual assault gets people worked up? I bet it does. Fuck you for being completely devoid in empathy. Take your crown of decayed porcupines and your badger of honour and leave.
Oh, that’s the words of another European. If you wnat me to add a long string of swearwords and insults in my native language I’ll happily supply them. Arschloch.
To all who spoke up with your stories, in each of them are shards of my own, and to you all, may *sunlight* (metaphorical, not spiritual, lest anyone misread a newbie with too much poetry in her soul) of healing that is possible guide you to a place where you no longer want to wretch or run screaming when you read triggering posts, as it has me, finally. Internet hugs to those who can accept them. Nods of hope to others who cannot.
As to anyone that cannot grasp the severity of trauma done to the body memory even without “penetration” – let me offer you a little more definition of that word: physical isn’t the only way these violations penetrate. There is a very deep psychological/sexual violation in any attack on someone by way of using sexual contact/threat of any kind. And this lasts forever. And no, you don’t have to consciously be aware of this violation.
So, fuck you for trying to tell anyone their pain isn’t real pain, because you don’t understand what you’re fucking talking about.
Belittling and redefining rape over and over and over has led to a serious dysfunction of our entire society. It needs to be stopped.
And to those whining about how irrational this discussion has seemed… fuck off. Emotion involved in this topic will always seep into people, with time. It works far better than a rational discussion of definitions and legal terms ever can. I read the entire thread before commenting, surely, you can, too, before vomiting words about calming the fuck down… Go back, read a bit of the stories, and then shut up about calming down.
And those who found a long thread to come into and try to play some sort of sickening internet game… fuck off.
Thanks to those who have repeatedly, over the course of the year, even more, stood up and not let the minimizers stomp all over the real life experiences of people who have been on the receiving end of this crap. It’s been good to know there are some voices sticking up for those of us *certain people* are calling feminazis.
@Ms. Daisy Cutter (432)
off-topic:
That’s a word that isn’t actually in use anymore. Backpfeife is rather archaic German, the corresponding word nowadays would be Ohrfeige. Yet there is no such expression as Ohrfeigengesicht. The only thing I can think of would be “Xe has a face like a Birkenstock. You step in it, and you feel fine.” But even that expression is a bit dated.
on-topic:
Sorry, but I couldn’t stomach all the vileness from the residential fuckwits. I’ll continue reading, I’d like to deeply thank everyone for sharing and caring, and for tearing those assholes a new one (asshole-ception?)
Josh, #67,
{Activates Remote Internet Virtual Husband Powers, Form of Probably Ineffective Hugs and Commiserations}
I will now do something very British and manly to cheer you up:
I say, old chap, come now, erm, there there, chin up, worse things happen at sea you know, pip pip, shall we go to the pub?
Or if you prefer something less emotionally constipated:
Fuck, Josh. That’s bad. If I could do anything other than commiserate and offer you sympathy from the wrong side of the Atlantic I would. Inappropriate knob joke? Hey, don’t sue me, those and empathy are all I have in a crisis! :-)
Louis
Delurking, but warning – this is an emotional post; this is not a ‘theoretical’ issue for me, as it clearly isn’t for many pharyngulites. I’m not sure how useful a post it is; it’s too damn long and I’m still smarting from other similar threads; I hope references to them aren’t considered too OT.
I’ve spent this young woman’s entire lifetime trying to deal with what was done to me and while I’m a pretty tough cookie most of the time, I still lose it unexpectedly – kindness seems to get to me more than callousness nowadays, I think maybe because I’ve encountered genuine kindness so much less frequently and find it harder to credit as sincere*.
I have no issue with the idea of these rapists, Austin Zehnder and Will Frey, being followed by the record of their crime for many years to come; with them facing real world consequences for far longer than their sentences, but it’s not due to vindictiveness, – I just don’t care about them, even slightly; I care about the probability of them committing further crimes being reduced, about potential future victims having accurate information about these persons and being able to decide if they can take the risk of being around an opportunistic rapist – I care about the survivor of their crimes getting the space, time & resources necessary for healing.
I detest the notion of circumscribing what a survivor of sexual assault can say about their own experiences**; that seems to me to be inimical with recovery from trauma. I am in awe at Savannah Dietrich’s response, both to the crimes committed against her and the further injustice they tried to bring about by silencing her; I *wish* I had that kind of self-possession.
* Kalliope’s superb, and to-the-point response to eltee on another thread had me shaking and in floods of tears before I got through it, whereas the nasty post that PZ commented on & that prompted the thread raised only contempt.
My thanks and best wishes to Caine, Erista, eltee, Ogvorbis, Marinerachel, Tethys, ibelieveindog, Caerie, positivevorticityadvection, Josh, Grimalkin and all the others who have shared your experiences, in many threads over the past few months; I wish I could remember all your names – your testimonials stick with me; you helped me find the courage to actually post. I’m so sorry to know people chose to do these awful things to you.
Kalliope – just… thank you for that comment. I kind of dislike singling you out because there are so many awesome commentators stepping up in these threads; there have been many laudable things said in between the horrible, aaaaaand I’m well aware you weren’t talking to me as such, but – you got to me.
** or what we refer to ourselves as – can’t recall where this came up, but; yes, I’m a survivor – I survived my rapist; my friends C and R didn’t survive theirs. I miss them both a great deal. Referring to myself as a survivor goes a very small way to keeping them in my life/ in my thoughts; it’s a reminder that surviving isn’t a given, even when a victim lives past the actual assault/s.
Fuckwit keeps saying this, but keeps failing to produce evidence for it. So *POOF*, all his arguments based on this lie are lies. Welcome to reality, where you must put up or shut the fuck up like a liar and bullshitter with a conscious should.
Pyra,, quoted for truth.
So, so very true, Katchen. Thanks for saying it and speaking up. I, too, recently lost someone incredibly dear to me to a suicide due to shit like this.
Many, many hugs and internet goodies to Pyra, Katchen, ibelieveindog, positivevorticityadvection, Tethys, Caerie, marinerachel, FossilFishy, Grimalkin and everyone who shared their experiences through the years, including (as always) Caine, Ogvorbis, Erista, Kalliope, Josh, Cipher and everyone else I can’t remember by name right this second. Thank you for speaking up I’m sorry for what you had to go through. This shit ain’t right.
A further thank you SO MUCH goes out to all the other regulars who, even though they never went through this shit themselves, still fight their hardest to keep this place safe for those of us who did. Much, much respect and appreciation, truly.
HEY asshats who are crying about the rapists being “only 17”! Guess what? My baby cousin, who killed herself recently over shit like this, was only seventeen too! Boy howdee, the shit kids get up to, what a lark, eh? Luckily they can grow up and move on and get better …
Oh FUCKING WAIT, ‘they’ can’t. Only the rapists get that.
Katchen, Pyra, love and hugses.
I’d like to add that I feel I owe something to all the women the man who raped me murdered. And their families and friends. Those women didn’t want to die, they fought, they tried to live. If the very least I can do is fight rape culture and raise awareness, I’ll happily do that until my last day on the planet.
I’m so sorry to hear that Gen; that’s just awful.
Yes; I did mean suicide was part of it – I should have been explicit*. I dislike pressure on bereaved people to not speak about suicide or to use comforting-to-other-people euphemisms. I’m ratty I did that. But it’s also that it’s not all of it; the rapist that R was abused by was a murdering rapist – she didn’t survive the assault.
*one reason I don’t join in these kinds of conversations often is I tend to get confused and brain-fogged when triggered; it doesn’t make for clear communication on my part – apologies.
Oh, Gen. I am so sorry. *hugses*
To everyone who’s taken the courageous step of sharing their experiences with sexual assault:
Others here have said pretty much what I’d like to say about it so I’ll just quote it again for emphasis:
I don’t know what makes me want to cry more – reading so many experiences of those who’ve suffered such horrific things (and knowing that for every person who’s shared their experience, there are so many more who are silent), or reading the outpouring of support and solidarity from others who refuse to let the culture that enables this sort of barbarity to continue and will call it out with no excuses allowed. I have been lucky enough to have not had such experiences (yet – knowing the statistics… *shudder*), but I have more people in my life than I care to count who have not been so lucky and continue to bear those scars.
So for the rest of you fucks who keep spewing your rape apologia all over these threads and seem hellbent on denying victims their agency and allowing them their emotions over what they’ve suffered: go fuck yourself on a bed of decaying porcupines and shut the fuck up. Your kind are not wanted here and society remains worse off for the attitudes you continue to put on display. You are HURTING PEOPLE who have already suffered so much. Just. Fucking. Stop.
Also – bascule, here’s a string of pearls for you to clutch. I won’t even bother with the teeny tiny violin.
Gen,
My profoundest sympathies. I have no more words for you, it must have been agony for your cousin and also for your family.
Louis
Gen, Katchen, Pyra, my sympathies and heart go out to you, your friends and families
This is why the internet is better than the mainstream media.
But for the love of godlessness, don’t read the comments over there.
@bascule
Thanks for the advice: You are right. I need to blend in by using the local customs of self-righteous insults against strawmen. OK, let me give that a try. Grim face on, … and lets type away!
This forum is like a dark Hells Angels hangout, where social misfits can vent witless insults against each other or anyone who doesn’t wear the officially endorsed Harley Davidson leatherwear or matching gang tattoos. A keyword like ‘rape’ is all it takes to build a straw man, turn around and set it on fire with a brainfart and a match. The enemy-of-choice is the church across the street: They are as self-righteous and the socially accepted behavior patterns are as narrow. Over there the keyword ‘abortion’ would set them off in an equally unproductive rage. Still these faitheist are friendlier and less miserable thanks to a happy delusion.
The guys&gals here lack the physical and emotional strength to say the same comments face-to-face to anyone. Or perhaps they did a few times, but this lack of social skills is the very reason why they ended up sex-deprived spending all day in a gloomy apartment, typing furious forum posts between wank jobs, desperately trying to get some attention. The social awkwardness of this gang is such that at the public conventions they go to are marred in scandals about inappropriate pickup attempts.
fix’d for you. Good luck with that eh.
neuzelaar,
The same goes for you as for bascule: Fuck off.
I don’t care if internet wanking makes your day. It has been explained where you are wrong, point by point. You are not worth any more of my time, or anyone else’s.
Fuck off and stay there.
OK, now you’re just boring neuzelaar. If all you can do is help me fill out my bingo card you need a better hobby.
Sorry troll but that brainfart is from your lying and bullshing mouth, not the regulars. You make lots of claims, but the amount of peer reviewed evidence you have presented to back up those claims: ZERO. All you have is unevidenced fuckwitted OPINION, which is treated like it is unevidenced fuckwitted OPINION, and you find that bad, as skeptics and freethinkers should swallow your OPINION, not question it for the bullshit it is.
Care to play some more abject rape apologist loser?
I know you need to believe this to make yourself feel better, but it’s such a tragic little fantasy
Neuzelaar,
{Applause}
Impressive. Most impressive. Truly you have embraced the power of the Troll Side.
Seriously, dude, your post made me facepalm. Not good. Really. My face, it is in my palm like right now. And as you intimate my face is not my palm’s usual occupant. Tell me more about how much of a loser I am for disagreeing with you on the internet. Seriously. It’s fascinating. When was the last time I got laid for example? How gloomy is my apartment? When is my next wank job? How long do I have to rest between them? I really want to know because your views are just so, so important and wonderful.
Louis
I think you all broke neuzelaar.
Hey, neuzelaar! We have this thread called TZT — it’s linked on the sidebar — and I think you’d find a happier home there. Comment there. Only there. If I catch you peddling your tired bigotry elsewhere, you’ll be banned.
Man, it sucks being us.
Louis: …you have to rest between them?
*flees*
Ladies, gentlemen, other sundry pharunguloids. I present you…the height of stupidity:
Pteryxx,
Well I AM on that health kick thing (Pathetic Day 2 successful so far), you know it’s all about energy and fitness and, my arms are killing me from the gym yesterd…
…this, erm, this…this is TMI isn’t it?
Louis
P.S. Luckily I am only joking. You wouldn’t believe the trouble you can get into wanking at work. I’m not going through THAT again.
P.P.S. Q: A biologist, chemist and physicist walk into the gents’ toilets, how do you know which one is the chemist?
A: He washes his hands beforehand.
(And yes, I know how inaccurate that joke is, just work with me people)
I really have nothing to add to this. Josh, PVA*, and all the others, thank you for sharing your experiences. Hugs etc. to all who need it.
Neuzellar and all trolls and other despicable members of society: Please get out of here, take a few porcupines, and never afflict anyone else with your bullshit.
*I didn’t understand what that meant at first, please revoke my met geek card
Damn. Damndamndamndamndamn.
*massive-industrial-strength-hugs* for positivevorticityadvection, Josh, katchen, pyra, and so many others….
–
Jonathan/googlemess, it’s great that you have some empathy and that you seem to earnestly want to not be so clueless. Your apologies are appreciated.
You need to take Tony’s advice at #35 in this thread. It is much better to lurk and learn than to stumble across what is, for a lot of people here, a field of psychic landmines. People are providing not only personal anecdotes but links to studies. I’d suggest reading them and digesting them.
I have a few specific responses:
Yes, all children and teenagers are little angels. Do you even pay attention to the news these days? Because bullying of all sorts has been in the headlines for the last few years. And sometimes kids are bullied to death.
How could she have been “committing a crime” when she was unconscious? Do you realize how much this assertion plays into the idea that women “entice” men into raping them? Would you have said the same thing if it had been a couple of teenage boys who had raped an elderly woman, which has happened? Or is this different because Dietrich is “hawt”?
NO. Do not go there. Do not use that as an excuse. Do you have any idea how many people here have ASDs (diagnosed, at that)?
You… really need to learn how to express yourself a little better in such matters.
Harrison, are you still whining about your concern for the poor ickle children being dismissed? In a thread full of rape victims who are dealing with having been triggered? That’s real classy, dude.
Neuzelaar, if you had empathy, maybe you could figure out why people here aren’t behaving like they’re at a wine-and-cheese party, and then you could stop conflating puritanism and vigilantism with outrage over justice miscarried. And also stop whining. If you don’t like it here, feel free to use your back button.
Joshua Kundert, go fuck yourself.
Bascule, go eat Ebola-tainted shit, turn into a blood-and-shit fountain, and die in agony.
Regarding sundown towns: I grew up next to a few. In “liberal” New England. Which is liberal only when you compare it to the rest of the U.S.
Mandrellian, additionally, children of 16 or 17 can become “emancipated” from their parents and strike out on their own, in certain situations.
Positivevorticityadvection, Pyra, Fizzing, Katchen: I’m very sorry. And welcome.
Gen, I’m horribly sorry.
Josh: Much love to you. Much love also to everybody who has found this thread emotionally overwhelming.
Paralyzed Veterans of America? Passenger Vessel Association?
Oh. I’m dumb. Nevermind my 184.
What, your workplace doesn’t have bathrooms? A wank is better than coffee for those 3:15 doldrums, and if anyone overhears you you can blame an overabundance or dearth of fibre in your diet.
(I once admitted to a manager that I’d had sex in the office. Other than some dropped jaws, I don’t recall any repercussions.)
Sorry all: I do apologise for cracking wise in what is obviously an emotional and triggering thread, and I’m sorry for minimising the seriousness of the topic.
As someone lucky enough not to have experienced the horrors of rape, I often wondered how I could contribute in a meaningful way to discussion of it.
I finally realized that the best thing I can do is to bear witness.
I bear witness to the pain and suffering of those who have posted in this thread, and to those who have not posted because the pain is still too great.
I bear witness that rape exists, that rape culture exists, and that there are many brave people trying to fight both, often while struggling with their own pain.
You are heard. You are believed. And your stories will be a spur to me to fight the rape culture whenever I have the opportunity.
I must remember to tell my wife of 40 years that we can’t have sex anymore because a rape apologist has decided I’ve never done anything but wank.
I’ll go with the hivemind in thanking all those who shared their stories. I’m more sorry than I can say that you had to suffer those horrible experiences. That’s why I’m trying to keep other people from being raped and sexually assaulted.
In particular, I offer my sympathy and love to my friend Josh. If I can do anything for you, please let me know.
I just love internet tough guys. Especially when they don’t have a fucking clue who they are talking to.
Yes, indeed.
Again, I’m sorry for my flippancy.
You’re all quality people:) I’m fine having taken the eight hours of sleep cure. I could use some levity, so I shall bring some to that Other Thread.
Good to see that Jonathan has started to see the light. Unlike some others.
weeeell, he’s one of them, so you misfired on that one.
I want to boost the points made here by others about what a unique haven this space is for survivors. I have tremendous respect for those who can discuss their own experiences with such disarming directness (whereas I cannot, not even anonymously on the Internet—and my story is not even in the same planetary orbit as Caine’s). Reading threads like this one can be emotionally overwhelming, sometimes triggering, but the experience is always, always a powerful reminder that there are amazing, compassionate human beings who fight fiercely, bravely, brilliantly, and sometimes even hilariously for justice and a better world. I’m grateful and humbled and moved beyond measure.
Rising apes, indeed.
Anyone looking for an example of what to do when you accidentally find yourself in a hole, I commend you to Brownian’s posts at 187 and 191.
For an example of what NOT to do, well, there are tons of examples in this thread, I don’t feel like re-reading them.
I’d like to second what irisvanderpluym said at 195.
Also, I’d like to note that it is entirely possible that our cousins the bonobos are actually way more civilized than we are.
[Chimps, on the other hand, are a little TOO similar to use for my comfort. In science fiction, it is not uncommon to run across the trope that humans “uplift” Chimps, but I have no idea why we would do that–we really don’t need TWO species of technologically adept, homicidal apes on this planet.]
dude doesn’t know much about the Angels either.
what iris said, really well, @#195.
@Josh
I assume i’m on the list for not exhibiting the level of empathy deemed appropriate (by you). I have plenty of sympathy for the girl. You on the other hand can go fuck yourself.
@200, reasonabel,
Sweet Zombie Jesus, what the hell is wrong with you? Who taught you that the appropriate response to someone’s expression of pain is to spit on them?
I would ask if you were raised by wolves, but frankly wolves are more polite than you.
I’m going to take a shot in the dark and say that maybe it was because you trivialized rape in the name of… not trivializing rape.
“Saying that you were raped trivializes rape because your experience wasn’t bad enough and too trivial to be rape because I say so!”
That’s what I got out of you anyways.
P.S. Fuck you
reasonabel @203 – Jebus effing Christ on a cracker, what the fuck is wrong with you?
*TRIGGER WARNING*
*
*
*
*
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I’m on the fence about this.
There was, fairly recently (i’m still googling to find a link) – the story about a “prank” wherein several boys sexually assaulted another – again, while recording it. Something about a dildo, holding him down and either almost or actually penetrating his anus.
At the end, he sits up and says something to the effect of “and you got it all on camera”.
The reaction, by and large, was how HILARIOUS the prank was. Nothing about the fact that the kid it was done to clearly did not agree.
Boys are allowed to torture other boys and its no big deal – like raping girls is no big deal. If this had been two girls assaulting a boy, that would likely get reactions of “lucky him!”.
The only scenario in which I can think larger soceity wouldn’t immediately side with the sexual assaulters is if they were gay and the victim straight. THEN it would be a horribly tragedy, cuz gay cooties.
thepint @206,
Jesus Christ IS a cracker, remember?
Sorry, inappropriate levity, but I couldn’t resist. I agree with your sentiment completely, however.
Unreasonabel, you are scum.
I hope you enjoy the word of adulation you get from the slimepit.
*killfile*
reasonabel – there is something deeply wrong with you. You are entirely without empathy, decency, or compassion. I would say you should be deeply embarrassed and ashamed of yousself, but I’ve known way to many rape cheerleaders and victim-punchers to think you’re capable of any of that.
I feel immence pity for you, because holy fuck what a sociopathic piece of shit you are.
PZ cannot ban your worthless, callous ass soon enough.
douglashudson, “reasonabel” is a troll from the slimepit. Not worth bothering with, if you ask me, however, if your fangs need sharpening, chew away!
@ douglashudson – no worries. It actually made me snicker a little, which is a pleasant change from all the head-desking and HULK SMASH engendered by the rest of this thread.
@211, Caine,
Thank you, I had my suspicions. But since I’ve only recently de-lurked, my fangs need a lot of work!
Just a test to see if my revised nick works properly.
Oh, and to keep on topic, reasonabel, you should ask Starfleet for a new empathy chip, yours is clearly malfunctioning.
Person 1: I hate you and fantasise about beating you up.
Person 2: Go fuck yourself.
Everyone else: Your a sociopath Person 2. Person 1 has been through so much pain in his life.
reasonabel, 215
You kinda left out a step there, didn’t you?
Person 2: offensive observation minimizing rape
Person 1: That triggered painful memories for me. Therefore, I fantasize about beating you up.
Person 2: fuck yourself.
How it should have gone:
Person 2: offensive observation minimizing rape
Person 1: That triggered painful memories for me. Therefore, I fantasize about beating you up.
Person 2: Oh, I’m sorry for triggering you. I’ll be more careful when talking about rape in the future.
See the difference?
reasonabel,
Remember when I was nice and gave you benefit of the doubt? You already proved me wrong and you’re still digging.
Hint : stop digging.
Beatrice, he will not. He has the honor of the slimepit to uphold.
You’re gross, reasonabel.
Seriously. You and your grossness made people vomit because they were so triggered by the shit you said. And that stuff, even though it was hard on me to read too, I would have chalked up to well-intentioned ignorance and stupidity. But when someone points out how much harm it did to them to read it, your response is to lash out at them?
You’re a disgusting person.
Its funny that when victims name their abusers, the attention mostly gets shifted to their bravery (not that its undeserving)but this again works towards helping the abuser stay hidden unless its some well-known personality. Either way, justice is never easily granted.
For people who aren’t super gross and may have somehow missed this point before, I’ll add another explanation to the pile:
One of the most damaging and powerful things we are taught as rape survivors is to minimize our rapes, and that we are not allowed to call what happened to us rape.
Along with that, some of us – I don’t know if all of us did, but it sounds like a lot of us, at least, did – learned that even if it was rape, it could always have been worse somehow, so we should never bring it up because that would be trivializing to the Real™ rape survivors. For the decent people, I encourage you to look to Ogvorbis’s posts for extremely brave, powerful, and clear articulations of that feeling.
I’ll try to add my own.
I don’t have the emotional strength to speak out loud about having been raped.
(Thanks for the reminder, by the way, asshole!)
My best friend, who has broken down and cried in front of me despite having absorbed societal messaging about how that makes him weak and not a man, whom I have broken down and cried in front of when I was afraid to leave despite my separation anxiety having been treated as sufficient reason to hurt me – which I’ll get to in a minute, whom I trust enough that when he’s with me, I can do a variety of things that I thought I could never do again – once asked me straight out if my second rapist had raped me.
After years of Pharyngula, being a person who has written down in fairly graphic detail, in front of sometimes hostile strangers, precisely what he and my other rapist did to me, I froze up, went numb, looked down, and said “Sort of.”
Sort of.
He “sort of” raped me. He was “sort of” an abusive rapist.
Part of the reason is undoubtedly the details of my abuse. Like many other people, I was taught by both of my abusers that insufficiently controlling my emotional responses to their abuse – being angry at them, for instance, or being afraid, or crying – meant that I was crazy. And bad. And broken. One abuser responded by physically attacking me, and when I confronted him afterward, told me that it didn’t count as attacking a person because I wasn’t a person, and that it was like shaking a vending machine or hitting his computer because he was frustrated with it for not working, and that if I would only work right, he wouldn’t have to do it again. If I had admitted to being raped, that would have led to an unacceptable display of emotion. So I went numb, and I said “sort of.” Part of the reason is that I have learned that nothing that happens to me counts, because I am not a person.
But a bigger part of the reason is that I have fully absorbed the messages about what counts as rape. When someone you love rapes you, that’s not REALLY rape. When you’ve had sex before, it’s not really rape. When you’re a submissive, it’s not really rape. When you’re at home, in bed, not drugged but sleeping, that’s not really rape. No matter what, it’s not really rape. So you’re not allowed to call it rape, because real people get raped, and saying that you have been diminishes them and their experiences.
That’s why the shit reasonabel was spouting was so goddamn painful for me to read.
Hey Cipher thanks for posting that. It actually gives me a better somewhat better understanding of how I was being harmful. It was inadvertent. I don’t think people should be ashamed about the incident, or worried about people who don’t think it actually is rape.
The worry I had was that any form of harassment would qualify as rape if its left up to the victim, rather than the law to determine. This is not to say that I think a certain level of harassment is acceptable, obviously it isn’t.
Cipher,
Thank you for working so hard to explain things, no matter how painful it might be for you.
—
reasonabel,
Only if you consider victims to be idiots or liars.
If your response includes the word “emotional”, spare us.
Fuck you asshole. Come back when you’re not “worried” about what qualifies as rape.
Comment by reasonabel blocked. [unkill][show comment]
I’m going to speak about this as the survivor of childhood sexual abuse.
So let me get this straight–two young men rape a girl who is too intoxicated to give consent and with their considerable knowledge of modern technology they took pictures of the act and sent it to their friends.
They did this knowing that Twitter and Facebook are a thing. Knowingly. Full-disclosure.
Why? When they knew their victim could just as easily retaliate for their humiliation of her, why take pictures and send them to their friends? The answer to that is the very essence of male privilege and a cultural sponsorship of rape.
They showed the world her at her most vulnerable and intimate, displaying what was privately only hers, her very *her* for the world as nothing but sport–an animal for their entertainment and she DARED to mention their name in conjunction with what they were convicted of doing?
No. Speak loud and clear, Savannah. Shout it from the rooftops. Here, I’ll tweet the names of your rapists, too.
Silence is what makes rape possible. It is not a crime committed (in the first world) on a public stage with fanfare and full-press coverage. It’s a crime committed in silence. It’s a crime of shame and guilt and blame and power.
You don’t take away a victim’s power over herself by committing a crime upon her once, and then take it away again by trying to silence her.
Keep in mind, this person is from the slimepit. This is the group that claims that Rebecca Watson cried “RAPE” when all she said was “guys don’t do that”.
Also, unreasonabel, it took decades of struggle to get the law to recognize that rape was not just a strange man attacking a woman, that a woman can be raped by her husband.
Now do yourself a favor and pull your head out of your ass. You are full of shit that needs to get out and your brain needs the oxygen.
And fuck you.
@reasonabel
Victims of any crime should be listened to and their testimony taken into account. There’s no “type” of person who is more likely to be a victim and so you can expect them to have a similar range of personalities to the general populace. Which is to say that sadly yes, some will be liars and some will be idiots. Not saying thats the case here.
I’ve posted there 5 times, saying the exact same stuff that I posted here. So..
And with use of your demonstrated rationalism, you informed a rape victim to fuck himself.
You are fucking toxic.
Fine, shitstain, five times. You are still fucking toxic.
@Beatrice
He’s from the slympit. He’s trying to harass people and/or get banned. It’s apparently all they do aside from cyber wanking in the corner
Want my skype?
And you fail to grok that victim blaming, rape jokes, and all the other shit in our society that enables rape through the continuation of the rape culture makes it far less likely that a rape victim will even report the crime or that, if they do, the testimony will even be taken into account.
Yes.
(Though it’s now #198.)
***
I have no words. You are despicable. Go the fuck away.
@Janine
I did Janine. If you want to do me physical harm for something i’ve said then you can either try it or go fuck yourself.
Thank you for that post cipher, particularly this part:
This. This idea right here is the fucking epitome of why I spent the past 6 to 7 years of pushing thoughts of the abuse I went through to the back of my head, and why I am only just now (as in, last night upon reading this thread up to the present) seriously thinking over everything that I went through without mentally interrupting myself with “but seriously, it’s not like you’re a real victim” every five seconds.
I don’t call my abuse rape, and it doesn’t seem right to call it assault. Not because I don’t feel it was “serious enough” (at least now), but because the individual words don’t feel right. But the idea that using those words would somehow trivialize ‘real’ victims has completely and entirely fucked over my attempts to deal with my abuse. “Don’t talk about it, talking about it means that you want sympathy and you didn’t suffer enough to deserve that” “Don’t answer ‘yes’ to the question on the psychiatrist’s survey asking if you were a victim of sexual abuse, because, y’know, you really weren’t”
But you know, despite what I’ve convinced myself, and despite asshats like Quidam and Reasonabel who think that there’s actually something fucking wrong with victims getting to determine the severity of their attacks, all of that is complete fucking bullshit. I was a victim, and I did suffer. I suffered a fuck ton. And it is so fucking hard to say that, because my abuse was of the “entirely-over-the-internet child predator” type. And every time I see my brand of abuse portrayed, through shit like “to catch a predator” and PSA warnings that essentially amount to “Dumb slutty teenagers just love being dumb and slutty and tempting pedos to find them and rape them! Watch out for that”, I internalize just a little, tiny bit that my abuse wasn’t really abuse, it was just me being dumb but that’s okay, because it’s not like the guy ever actually came in contact with me and so nothing bad happened to me. That’s what the portrayals say, anyways. Not a ‘real’ incident of abuse, not worth ‘real’ trauma.
But those portrayals miss a fucking lot. They ignore the factor of me, as a fucking ten year old, not doing anything to ‘attract’ a pedophile and being targeted by one. They ignore how I was introverted and unpopular and insecure, and how as such I was like clay in the fucking hands of my abuser once he told me that he loved me. How he tricked me into thinking that there was nothing sexual about sending him naked pictures. How he managed to, so seamlessly that I don’t remember how it happened, transition from making bullshit excuses for why I should be naked in my pictures to telling me to do overtly sexual things in them. How he wrapped me up in so much talk of loving me and at the same time needing me emotionally that no matter how disturbing the things he suggested I do to myself and take pictures of, he knew I wouldn’t end the relationship.
They ignore how it feels when I recall being told not to be embarrassed at my pubescent body, and realize that my fucking abuser was probably getting off on the ‘reassurance’. When I look back on all of the dumb fucking excuses he gave me and can’t decide between being ashamed at how easily fooled I was or disturbed at how easily he fooled me. When the first fucking time I ever masturbated was at the behest of, orchestrated by, and photographed for a fucking child grooming pedophile, and how I doubt that it would feel any more violating if that complete fucking intrusion of my personal space had been done physically by him instead of myself.
And I have to say, when I actually write all of that out, it is a fucking insult to say that my abuse is trivializing to someone elses, because that says that my abuse was trivial, and it was fucking not. My abuser raped my fucking mind, my emotions, and my fucking sense of trust, and I do not believe that saying so is trivializing anything.
And to everyone who thinks it is, fuck you. You are the only people here trivializing anything.
To everyone else who has been calling out their bullshit and letting this thread be a safe place to share experiences and not feel like you’re being trivializing, thank you. So god damn much.
Oh, and Reasonabel;
Fuck you and your ‘worry’. I hope that what harassment qualifies as is left up to the victim, rather than the law to determine. Rather than left up to anyone else to determine.
Back into the killfile. I don’t know why I even bothered.
Comment by reasonabel blocked. [unkill][show comment]
These two thoughts expressed together as one point is so incredibly stupid it is hard to put into words.
Thats an unrealistic hope though for a variety of fairly obvious reasons. You can call it whatever you want, but only the legal system has the power to actually punish beyond a few days of internet notoriety that will no doubt be quickly forgotten.
“The law” determines nothing, as it itself consists of no people. It is a set of rules, created by people, enforced by people, interpreted by people.
Which people should create the rules that govern what is, and is not, rape or other forms of sexual abuse, if not the victims and their supporters? The perpetrators? Then nothing would fit the definition. There would be no rules against any kind of sexual assault. Some disinterested third party? Sexual abuse is so ubiquitous that there is no such thing. No one who knows about the extent of the problem can be said to be “disinterested”.
Why should the victims be disqualified from having a say in what defines the harm they have suffered?
Like I said: you are despicable.
Because victims of abuse shouldn’t have say in the severity of their abuses and the severity of their punishments.
How is wanting the opposite of that ‘unrealistic’ at all? Clearly the reasons are only ‘fairly obvious’ to you.
I bet he takes the slimepit party line.
“Because those shrill harpies will call everything they don’t like rape!
Reasonabel, eat shit. Eat all of the shit, because you’ve certainly been spewing enough of it here.
The politicians should decide, based on informed opinion from various advocacy groups and legal advice/opinion (here’s a hint: there is no pro-rape advocacy group). You’re right on one thing, nobody can be disinterested in this subject, because we’re all human. I have two sisters and a mother, you think i’d like them to get raped and see the fuckers who did it get off scot-free?
Thank you to all who have posted their stories. Thank you for enabling me to tell my story. Thank you all for your support.
The horrible thing about rape is that, unlike any other crime, it’s always the victim that is shamed not the criminal. There’s always, at least, a whiff of blame and sometimes much more than a whiff. And, as all these stories show, WE come to believe that we are to blame. And/or we believe our abuse wasn’t bad enough to count so we really can’t complain, can we? And anyway, it’s our fault. Oh, and if we tell anyone, then we risk being forever viewed as broken by our friends and something worse by those who are less kindly disposed towards us.
I’ve been reading pharyngula for years because the regulars always help me to see how much I’ve internalized rape culture, misogyny, racism, and homophobia – even to my own detriment. These things are insidious, learned early and often, and difficult to dislodge. It’s a long term project. Thank you.
That’s why Savannah Dietrich’s calling out of her rapists is so damn liberating. Why should SHE feel shame? Why should any of us feel shame? Put the shame where it belongs – on the bloody rapists. Savannah’s not broken, she’s angry. It’s the rapists who are broken, pathetic, disgusting individuals. And now the whole world knows that.
Yes indeed, the issue of ‘what is rape’ should be decided by the same old white men that make a hobby of trying to fuck up the bodily autonomy of women everywhere!
(PS There are pro-rape advocacy groups)
Woops, link borked.
(delurking)
Thank you everyone who has shared your trauma. It’s been heartbreaking.
Not good to read this at work; people outside the bathroom wondering why I’m sobbing.
(/lurk)
@Grimalkin
Your link doesn’t work.
Also, to everyone that has shared their story, or argued with someone to try to make the clueless understand, thank you. It’s not a fight I can assist in right now but I appreciate your efforts.
reasonabel,
Go back to the slimepit to brag about triggering people. Your proud lack of empathy will be better appreciated there.
Fuck off.
Reasonabel has been banned. The disclosure that he’s been bragging elsewhere about trolling here was enough. Any other happy slimepitters are similarly unwelcome here — stay and wallow in your shit-trough, OK?
@PZ
You may want to switch to disvoweling them. They’re using banning as a rite of mandhood
So I visited the Slymepit, just to see what actual human pieces of shit looked like, and this is what I saw:
That’s outstanding. What a blow to the forces of tyranny.
Also an IP ban. It’s already morphed
I can just imagine them furiously typing new comments, helplessly raging every time they are rendered unreadable.
Yay for disvoweling.
So I guess we’re not the Stasi after all?
We can put that little meme to rest?
Comment by resanbole blocked. [unkill][show comment]
I do indeed think they are, and thankfully I don’t think they’re listened to in government. Doesn’t change that they’re a pro-rape advocacy group; they’re just a shitty one.
@Grimalkin
FFS it’s someone who was just banned! Don’t talk to it!
So, NOT LIKE THE FUCKING STASI AT ALL.
Just so you and your little pissant buddies are fucking clear.
You know, one of the points of the banhammer isn’t that the ban can’t be circumvented, but that very act of morphing to evade the ban exposes the morpher as the pitiful, pathetic, and ludicrous specimen that it is.
Thank you, raisinbabble, for so quickly demonstrating, yet again, just what a pathetic piece of excrement you truly are.
[meta]
Sad troll now using , you can’t play with the smart people, but you wish you could; so you do the best you can, and try to prop up your self-esteem by trolling here.
You’re not being silenced. Really. The internet is a big place!
You can have your own blog, with your own bathroom, and junior promises not the play the stereo too loud if you promise not to smoke in the broom closet.
What mark? You weren’t dissenting, as you weren’t presenting any evidence, just voicing OPINION. Your OPINION stinks to high heaven with misogyny, ignorance, stupidity, and lack of evidence…
I’m sorry. Are you hurt that your well-reasoned argument didn’t warrant a thesis?
Speaks to motive. Your assumption is not fact.
Please, continue to speak to my limits of reasoning.
resanbole @ #269
Wow. The goal of banning is to silence any dissent? Amazing. This is such a novel and well thought out idea! I bet nobody has ever said something like this before, and I’m sure that there are no dissenters in this thread (or others) that remain in a non-banned status!
Oh wait. Practically all yahoos who get banned claim it was due to their dissent (as if dissent per se was such as wonderful thing in the first place). And there’s several people who expressed dissent about several things and weren’t banned.
Go figure.
Yes, clearly there is no dissent allowed on Pharyngula
/sarcasm
Of course, the Stasi were frightening because they would seek out dissenters and silence them, as people other than reasonabel know.
The comparison would be apt if the Stasi only prevented people from dissenting in Stasi headquarters.
Or do you think PZ’s ban is meant to be effective everywhere?
wow, link fail:
Yes, clearly there is no dissent allowed on Pharyngula,
More pitiful fapping from the mighty morphin resinbibble, I see.
specimen:
Yet I recognise you for what you are, loser, and I need not make new IDs just to comment here — which you will need to do again not too long hence, after PZ hammers your current one.
(You are not wanted because you are worthless, and you like it that way)
Gah! It’s true!! He’s getting close–too close!!!
SOMEBODY STOP HIM BEFORE HE TOUCHES A NERVE!!!!
You’re getting close to the mark?
Really.
What was that before about how what you were saying was legitimately harmful, and you recognized that now?
That still true?
Is this some more of that vaunted, valuable ‘dissent’ you think is so useful?
It’s a shame what we’re all missing.
PZ, better relax your spam filters. We could be reading useful slymepitter input and be getting deals on watches.
To get back to the topic at hand (sort of), I really had thought things were bad back in the ’70s, when I was dealing with the trials and just beginning to come to terms (ha!, more like barely beginning to deal) with my childhood abuse. The silencing was extreme then, but usually on the idiotic basis of “shhh, we don’t talk about such things in polite society!”
Of course, the amount of people I was able to communicate with at the time was considerably smaller, and you couldn’t communicate en masse back then, like we do today. So, back then, maybe it seemed extra bad, because the silencing came from *everywhere* and there was little support to be had. There certainly wasn’t any support for simply being able to get your rage out and no one told you it was okay to be angry.
One time, during the aftermath, I got angry with a cop and cussed. This oh-so-helpful dipshit scolded me, saying I shouldn’t be so unladylike and that a lady could handle anything and I needed to keep that in mind. Much to my shame now, I immediately apologized and shut up. I had been raised to be a lady. All the crap that had been slammed into my head kicked in and left me in a state of even hotter anger, all of it bottled up.
While I’m glad to see that some things have changed and people are much more willing to be fierce advocates and refuse to keep their anger locked up for the convenience of slimebags, I often feel overwhelmed at the amount of slimebags out there in the world.
Shit. I think I had a point when I started…
I’m very disappointed in the amount of assholes out and about. Assholes who, even when made aware of the harm they cause and enable, continue on, with glee, even. However, and this is addressed to all of you slimy creatures not even worthy of being called human: we will not be silenced. Not by you, not by droves of you. Your howling is that of idiots in the dark, while our decency, our strength, our anger and our compassion is the light and we will lead the way forward, in spite of you, treading on top of you, turning you pieces of dirt into a road toward a better society.
I’m glad you think so. But in light of that, and in light of the fact that there are a bunch of people here who feel much the same way I do and have very similar reasons, and that you have seen the way this thread is going, I wonder why you think that things like this are okay to do.
[briefly ceases lurking]
I want to echo several others and humbly thank the people who’ve come forward with their stories.
Something that was expressed way upthread, that reading these heart-rending accounts can help us lucky, privileged guys become better people… I hope that’s true. I’ve been the “first person I’ve ever told” twice, once for a girlfriend, once for a friend. I had no idea what was wanted or expected of me, or what would help, so I just tried to listen. And maybe this will help me do that better, be better for anyone else in my life who’s trying to deal with things nobody should ever have to deal with.
So…… thanks, all of you. No reason you’d want a lurker’s e-hugs or heartfelt best wishes, but, just in case, there’s a Self-Serve package of ’em in the corner, out of the way.
[goes back to lurking]
*takes a deep breath*
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *makes a diving leap towards the room to tackle reasonoble”OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *Only to misjudge the door frame and smack right into the molding* OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW~!
Resanbole banned. Resanbole’s comments all deleted, as will happen to any other attempts to evade banning.
Resanbole was banned for being an admitted troll from another site, and for morphing to evade filters. He can play games, but I’ll just delete them as soon as I notice, so it’s pointless.
Go back to your slimepit, please.
Heat and no light?
Humph.
You could thank me for explaining to you at least one salient difference between the actual Stasi and your litte Christian persecution fantasy.
(Pro-tip: when communicating to some and not others, it’s sensible to be specific to avoid miscommunications like what just happened.)
Poor reasonabel. Swallowed up by the Stasi.
The slymepit grows. One day they might have more than 50 people reading their site at any one time, true skeptics all.
Reasonabel’s performance here today reminded me of the guy with the “singing mice” on Monte Python. You know, the guy with the mallets that he uses to whack the lineup of mice, who shriek in pain while he hums off-key. The crowd wrestles him offstage once, only to see him break free, run back on stage, and start whacking the mice again.
I’m sure reasonabel is very proud tonight.
I hope Abbie Smith has to suffer the shame and consequences of her encouragement and stoking of this kind of inhumanity for the rest of her career and personal life.
What a scum bag.
I didn’t read reasonabel’s last post, so if my understanding of it is way off-base and this post is worthless, sorry. But from what Brownian said, it looks like reasonabel was clarifying that he was responding to people (like Brownian?) who responded to him with anger/insults, not to people who explained things to him.
If that is indeed the case, what he needs to understand is that the reason some of us are able to be honest about what we’ve gone through is that we know the other regulars here have our backs. With the “heat,” Brownian and others, who are damn well invested in this enough to be legitimately angry, are helping to create a culture that is unwelcoming to people harming us as survivors either from ignorance or malice, and that enables us to feel safe enough to talk openly sometimes.
(And of course, this is just one thread – in other threads, Brownian is explaining things and I’m calling everybody a bunch of putrescent shitbegonias. We get too tired or too pissed because we’re people, and those emotions are legitimate.)
I DEMAND to know, who is forcing these precious snowflakes to read the comments and post comments here! These delicately iced cupcakes do not deserve such punishment! They have fee-fees, you know! And those fee-fees are insulted when they meet with more than one person at a time who disagrees with them, and then refuses to behave as they say is appropriate. Is there no end to this?
It is truly astounding that someone would subject them to being online reading and commenting against their wills. Which hacker is it? Step up, you! Admit it!
the mind of the entitled troll. “I get to decide what you deserve and I’m justified in attacking you!”
Here’s a fresh new Trojan to replace the one you just filled up. It is our policy that your condom be fitted low and tight against your scrotum at all times when you’re seated. Should romantic circumstances change additional prophylactics will pop up in front of your face. Be sure to secure your own condom before helping fap your seatmate.
*brings in an industrial disinfectant to clean up the stench, wearing full hazmat gear*
PZ, the troll has gone to the trouble of getting another ID.
(So, so very predictable.
It will take PZ a button-click to hammer its new ID and erase its comments)
I know that unreasonabel has gotten the banhammer. But he is also like the dog that is determined to gobble up it’s vomit.
Your mind reading ability is equal to your reasoning ability. Seriously, any who thinks that be banned from one little part of the internet is somehow like the Stasi has no idea what the Stasi did. And is taking cues from Paula Kibry.
Gee, the fuckwitted preacher is back. One can’t discuss until one can consider they might be wrong. And fuckwitted preacher can’t be wrong, despite evidence to the contrary…
Here doggie, doggie! You still have some vomit to lap up.
I get it now. Because the toxic little shitstain thinks he can cause pain for people who ban him from a blog, he thinks that people who mock also want to do him harm.
Sad little stupid fuckface.
Don’t bother to respond to the various permutations of the slimepitters name. All of its comments will be deleted as I notice them.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Oh my, look at the posturing. Tsk. Wish away, little critter, you have nothing.
One of the things that came up a while back on the #FTBullies hashtag was the significance of empathy and how relevant demonstrating it was to which side you fell; I pointed several people (who’d showed disdain for the commenters here) toward exactly this kind of thread to illustrate that while Pharyngula regulars can be harsh (to the ill-informed, the entitled and the generally obnoxious), at the same time it’s a great place for those who’ve experience this sort of shit, because they know they’re amongst friends.
I know which I prefer out of superficially polite but disdainful of real problems, and harsh but genuinely empathetic.
Sorry, I’ve been busy, working, eating, sleeping and drowning kittens. If you think that what I have posted is a ‘rape apologia’ then you haven’t understood it. I’m not excusing or defending rape – I’m saying that Savannah Dietrich wasn’t raped.
Rape has a well understood definition – and while all rape is sexual assault, not all sexual assault is rape. This is a fallacy of composition. These boys were found guilty of “Sexual Assault 1st Degree” which in Kentucky means “Sexual contact” when “Victim is incapable of consent because (s)he is physical helpless”. Kentucky also has a class of sexual assault called “Rape” which is defined by “Sexual intercourse” Kentucky Association of Sexual Assault Programs
This is in accordance with the definitions of rape in dictionaries, by the United Nations and World Health Organisation
These boys were not found guilty of rape, ergo they are not rapists. Why is this important? Well, words are important for communication and words like ‘rape’ are extremely emotive, if you are using your own definition or conflating definitions it’s because you are using the fallacy of equivocation in an appeal to emotion.
The boys could have raped her, but they didn’t, so they’re not rapists.
My position is that there are degrees of seriousness of sexual assault. This is hardly controversial, every legal code in the world recognizes this, which is why the punishment for sexual assaults can vary from 90 days to life (in the Kentucky code). Saying that some assaults are more serious than others is self evident. The corollary is that some are less serious than others. That doesn’t mean they are not serious or that they are not assaults (as I clearly said).
With regard to my statement that the victim was not aware she had been assaulted until the reports and photos were circulated – that indicates that the assault was not violent. A non violent assault is not as serious as a violent assault. (An assault results in physical trauma and/mental trauma. I think it’s indisputable that an assault that results in both is more serious than an assault that results in one)
Since everyone is relating their personal assault stories, I will join in. I was sexually assaulted by a scout leader when I was 11, the leader got me alone in his tent, produced his penis and put my hand on it. He then tried to grab my penis. I refused and left. This wasn’t rape – and I am extremely glad I wasn’t orally or anally raped. i.e. the assault was less serious than rape and whatever else he may have been, the scout leader was not a rapist. This was more serious than the assault on Dietrich, (although it seems to have resulted in less mental trauma for me) since the leader was in a position of in loco parentis – i.e. trust and authority and because I was much younger. Those are both aggravating factors.
All of this is to support what I would have thought was obvious – some sexual assaults are more serious than others, and that as sexual assaults go, this one was on the lower end of the range – and it wasn’t rape.
As to the issue of not publishing the names of the victim or the perpetrators. All parties were juveniles at the time of the assault and the trial was held in Juvenile court.
Juvenile court hearings are almost always confidential and, even if convicted, identities are usually not released. The hope in juvenile proceedings is that offenders will be rehabilitated and then become productive members of society as adults.
This is normal practice in juvenile courts in most civilized countries and doesn’t sound unreasonable to me. It’s done to protect the victim as well as the perpetrators.
I don’t subscribe to the prevailing view here that the boys are unrepentant monsters with no hope of rehabilitation.
I also don’t agree that it’s good idea to allow victims to decide on punishments. They are too emotionally involved, which is why we have a disinterested party (judge and/or jury for that) otherwise we descend rapidly into vigilante lynch mobs.
I won’t comment on whether their sentence was reasonable since I wasn’t present at the trial and don’t know the details. I do think it’s ironic that the boys crime was only discovered because they publicized it and so it is poetic justice that their punishment now includes publicity.
And lastly, to those who think that ‘fuck you’ is an argument – there is nothing to say.
I’ve been reading this thread for quite some time now. I have to say that I nearly threw up during my break at work. Lack of consciousness on the part of the victim is a mitigating factor, not an aggravating one? Really? Fuck off. Fuck off. Fuck off. I was asleep when it started but woke up during my rape. I don’t find any consolation in the fact that I was unconscious for part of it.
The young men who raped Dietrich deserve to be known as the predators they are. Arguing against that is taking the side of rapists and rape culture.
To all who posted their stories, my gratitude and thoughts to you.
You don’t get to decide that. Really. You don’t seem to understand this.
You do understand that this was a plea bargain, right? The victim of the crime calls it rape. The actual crime that the perpetrators plead to is more than likely a lesser crime, legally speaking. That’s how plea bargains work.
don’t bother. He doesn’t give a shit
And who the fuck cares about the opinion of a rape apologist, one who can’t shut the fuck up and listen, but keeps on preaching his fuckwittery?
The world would be better off without you in it.
Because they’ve shown such great judgement and empathy?
So, quidam, they’re not rapists, they’re molesters.
So, instead of being despicable scumbags, they’re just… er, slightly less despicable scumbags?
vaity, do not question Rules Lawyers. They are far more and are very-much-to-be-listened-to.
quidam:
You want to split hairs? Fine.
Here: these youths were found (I quote you) guilty of “Sexual Assault 1st Degree” which in Kentucky means “Sexual contact” when “Victim is incapable of consent because (s)he is physical helpless”, ergo they are sexual assaulters.
But you cannot say “they are not rapists” — that is an unwarranted inference, all you can say is “they are not rapists on the basis of this incident” under a particular definition of rape.
They could very well be rapists, merely ones who are yet to be caught. And they sure exhibit the mindset that women are sex toys whose personal integrity is to be ignored when the opportunity arises.
(You think people generally get caught for a first offence?)
—
But you admit they are guilty of “Sexual Assault 1st Degree”.
(Again with the ‘boys’, as if these were children — “Well, words are important for communication and words like ‘rape’ are extremely emotive, if you are using your own definition or conflating definitions it’s because you are using the fallacy of equivocation in an appeal to emotion.”)
—
It is you who imagines it is an argument; it is an expression of revulsion at your internationalisation of psychic trauma and your callousness and an indication people don’t care to deal with you.
Bah.
[erratum]
internationalisation → intellectualisation
@ Quidam
Ignoring the fact that your tedious argument has already been addressed, several times, in this thread alone, I would just like to point out that there is not ‘a’ (that is, one single) well understood definition of ‘rape’. My dictionary lists no less than seven, the first of which is “unlawful sexual activity carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent.”
No where in that definition does it specify that the penis has to go into the vagina for it to be ‘real’ rape. Nor do the other six insist upon it. Just within the bounds of that definition, Savannah was raped, because sexual activity was carried out against her will while she was incapable of consent.
As far as the law – Within the bounds of Kentucky law, you will not actually find the word ‘rape’ anywhere at all, so if we use your incredibly stupid definitions, there are NO rapists in Kentucky. I’m sure you don’t actually believe that.
Also, I am sorry you had such an experience as a child. I would not wish that on anyone, not even someone I deeply despise.
Also also, eat shit, you lackwitted fuckhead. Your experience as a child does not justify your current complete absence of compassion towards other rape victims.
Your words here on this page have caused, are causing, and will cause actual harm to real people, and for that you have earned the very depths of my contempt.
This harm is a direct result of your willful, deliberate ignorance and complete absence of compassion. I deeply wish for people who you actually care about (if that’s possible) to discover the words you’ve written on this page, realize what a horrible person you are, and condemn you for it (assuming, of course, that THEY possess an ounce of compassion). Because that is what you deserve.
Le sigh. I retract that portion of my rant. The rest is valid – you are a terrible human being.
Yes, xe is, Stevarious. A terrible alleged human being.
The legal code gets to decide that. And it has. Do you understand this?
Now you are speculating wildly. They were never charged with rape and after being charged with sexual assault they made a plea bargain on sentencing.
The victim’s only knowledge of the assault was obtained from the photos the boys took. She was not conscious and was not even aware an assault had happened until months later. She could not be a witness to the event – the photos were the only evidence. Nowhere can I find any reference to them showing rape.
Plea bargains are frequently made in return for a more lenient sentence – not a reduction in the charge. Prosecutors tend to only use them if the evidence is not compelling. Presumably the photos did not show rape else why would a plea bargain be offered at all?
Josh and Nerd seem to have comprehension difficulties.
And you still aren’t shutting the fuck up and listening with empathy. Until you do so, you have nothing cogent to say. PERIOD.
This.
I’m so sorry, everyone. I’m at a loss for words.
Thankyou for everyone who has spoken up.
Trolls, apologists and others of depraved indifference. Please fuck off. Life is hard enough for people without you shitting on them.
quidam’s argument reminds me of those who say that you can’t call people who hate jews anti-semites, because arabs are semites, but the bigot may not hate arabs.
The best rebuttal I heard to that sort of argument was from someone who called out, “You are confusing a dictionary with real language.” Legal definitions are fine. I approve of them for many reasons. Legal definitions are often not correctly used by people in ordinary conversation. Slander or libel, anyone? That doesn’t mean the speaker has no point. It does mean that if xe were filing a court paper, xe would have to do it again, using the correct terminology.
Why quidam feel this results in a better position for his or her argument overall is beyond me.
As to non-publication orders being a good thing, I think that may be so, depending on the order. The ones most common in the jurisdiction where I practised are two fold. First, Child Protection considerations where the hope is to shelter a child from being followed by proceedings forever. The second one relates to non-publication of a victim’s name in cases involving sexual offences. In the first case, the cut off age for such cases is commonly 16. In the second, there is no age factor. I have noted with interest that often the motion for non-publication is sought, not by the victim, but by the accused. There is a serious question in my mind as to the value of the actual order made in the case at hand. It does not seem to meet the goals of the law as usually applied.
The order purporting to bind the victim to non-disclosure is unique in my experience. It is from a court in the US, and I defer to the expert opinion linked to earlier, suggesting the order may well be unconstitutional.
</tries to shut down legal voice.
Oh, and does quidam mean that since the law makes a distinction, the two convicted offenders should be better regarded? More highly valued?
quidam:
FTFY.
—
Yeah, I know you reckon that sexual assault against unconscious people is always less severe than the very same assault against conscious ones would be.
(Bah)
quidam,
You are aware that the boys got a plea bargain correct? You do realize that the boys could have plead guilty to a lesser charge? So claim all the nit picking with words all you want, the victim said she was raped, so that’s what we call it. Rape. Just because the pictures don’t show them penetrating her doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. Just because they weren’t convicted of rape doesn’t mean they didn’t commit it. After all what’s the point of do a plea bargain if the criminals agreeing to it don’t get something out of it, like a lesser charge with a lesser sentence.
This woman reported a rape. Her assailants are getting off with a slap on the wrist while she’s getting abuse for naming names.You come into the thread and are basically saying the victim is a liar and wasn’t raped because due to what the rapists were convicted of doesn’t include penetration.
Do you not realize how disgusting you are right now? You are playing semantic word games, using the same argument to silence, shame and minimize rape and what a victim goes through. There’s no difference between you and rape apologists. Intent isn’t magic. Claim all you want that you aren’t minimizing rape but you are.
How the fuck is this done to protect the victim? Sure as fuck not in this case. The perpetrators in this case are 17 and rapists. This is also in the US. Keeping their crime secret is only going to help them continue to rape. They are going succeed in life just fine even with people knowing they are rapists. They lose nothing.
You’re also forgetting that in the U.S juvenile records are sealed and esponged usually. That very well may be the case here. That doesn’t mean the victim isn’t allow to shout from the roof tops what they did to her and name names. They only thing that will follow them is probably the articles about it (very few which state their names), they will probably pass background checks with flying colors.
Studies have been linked and shown that rapists are prevalent, freely roaming in society and repeat offenders. Stating the actual chance of rehabilitate failure and not wanting to risk being around people who have previously raped. You’re lying, there’s little hope to think they will not continue to rape. There’s little reason to think that this was their first rape.
No one has said that. Good fucking lord you know nothing. We have been saying that the victim is the one to decide if it was rape or not. You don’t tell a victim, “you weren’t raped, it’s not that bad!”, which is what you’ve been doing. Then giving a weak ass “I’m sorry that you’re hurt, but I’m right. Rape is penetration only.” just makes you more of an asshole. The victim should be listened too and have a voice in how the prosecutor goes. Say if a victim doesn’t want to go through with a trial and is okay with a plea bargain. Or if the victim says no, I want to testify, I want to go trial to get them convicted of rape for what they did to me, not a slap on the wrist plea bargain. What the victim wants should be considered and listen to. We aren’t saying the victim gets to decide the time served or be on the jury or anything.
If a victim says they were raped, you call it rape. When a victim says they were sexual assaulted you say it was sexual assault. There’s a difference between this (which is respecting the victim) and what law the perpetrators can be prosecuted under. It doesn’t matter if they were prosecuted under sexual assault laws, if the victim says it was rape, you say it was rape.
Are you serious? Your sexual assault was worse than hers? WTF is wrong with you?
Nice sneering touch there with “yet I’m not whining about it like she is”.
“I’m not a rape apologist! I’m saying the victim is wrong, she wasn’t raped! It wasn’t that bad! How dare you accuse me of minimizing what the victim went through, it’s not like she got fucked or anything!”
The sexual assault version of the Oppression Olympics.
—————————
For the record, I’m not doing this for you. I agree with Ing, the world would be better without you. FUCK YOU and all your bullshit. I’m doing this for me, since I’ve been messed up for days because of this thread. The body betrayal being brought up caused a major breakdown. (stupid fucking body)I’ve had issued with cutting in the past and was seriously close to relapsing with the flash backs.
I’m doing it so I can vent and stand up with the people here. I’m doing it to find my own voice.
*sigh* Stupes gotta stupe.
Hey qidam.
Did ya notice the title of the thread?
It’s odd how culture shelters some who should be shamed.
But do continue to
wave your dick aroundshow us your mad iq, fetid, sewer-soaked, wretch.Pteryxx? *activates the ~:> signal*
I seem to remember that there was a study that shows that a large portion of the online behavior qidam is displaying, especially the doubling down and sadistic deliberately trying to trigger rape victims, is committed by sexual predator types?
(sorry if that isn’t clear, I can’t think of the correct terms to search for it)
You seem to have sentience difficulties.
Tell me…how do you deal with being simultaneously anencephalytic and aware of your impairment?
Actually that was me (for some reason ppl mix up Ing and me occasionally. . .maybe because we have moral compasses. Or maybe it’s Maybelline).
Oops! My bad Josh.
I agree with you then. I think I just assumed it was Ing, since I think Ing has said similar things previously. I look at the names, after reading the post usually. I need to work on that, it causes plenty of confusion on my part a lot. Sorry.
jesus christ, Grimalkin
D:
That’s horrifying.
Um – yes. They could have raped her. They didn’t. That makes them somewhat better people that those who would. They showed some restraint.
Strawman. My argument is that an assault that does not produce physical trauma is less severe than one that does. (and for the comprehension impaired ‘less severe’ does not mean ‘not severe at all’)
As for definitions, all of the dictionaries I have referenced refer to rape involving intercourse/penetration. That’s the Concise Oxford, Random House, Collins, and Wikipedia. I think the distinction is useful – rape is more serious than groping. A distinction that is recognized by the legal code in the UK, Canada, and Kentucky (plus undoubtedly many more) – and by the UN and WHO.
speaking of wild speculations, wow.
speaking of wild speculations. Holy crap.
Judges, prosecutors, juries, cops, and even supposedly rational-unemotional-uncaring jackass bystanders like yourself, have a terrible record of dismissing rape and blaming victims. It’s massively documented; and this specific incident is an *example* of the victim standing up to address flaws IN the justice system’s handling of her case. You cannot justify idolizing the justice system while denigrating victims’ standing in their own cases – it’s just a prettied-up version of the same old ‘lying/irrational/emotional women/victims/bitchez’. That’s what all this effort educating and raising awareness and sharing stories and research is FOR, so that ‘disinterested’ parties aren’t contributing to the fucking problem by sheer ignorance.
Sorry Tethys, I don’t recall proof of that particular connection off-talon, and I lack the headspace at the moment to search for it. There’s research on lack of empathy and authoritarianism, narcissism and sexual predators, online harassment as silencing of victims and so forth, but I don’t know a source that ties all that together.
Also, over the last year here we’ve *seen* trolls that go out of their way to provoke survivors – it might just be a pattern of observation.
@ quidam
You don’t know that. You know what facts have come out regarding the plea bargain.
Pterryx:
I heart you so much.
Did you know I was able to have Surly Amy to make me an honest-to-God Cher-adactyl?
In this case the victim wasn’t aware that any assault had been committed until the perpetrators publicized the photos. The pictures are the only evidence than an assault happened at all. The victim was not a witness to the assault.
tapdancing raptor christ, even more wild speculations!
How do YOU know? How do you even frickin’ know they didn’t rape her? Do you think their trophy cellphone photos were a complete and impartial record of everything that happened at that party? You don’t know if they were interrupted or distracted. You don’t know if any of their friends were watching, or nonexistentgods forbid, assaulted her also. You don’t know what the sealed trial records include. YOU DON’T KNOW. So don’t go making wild speculative claims about the absolute limits of these admitted, guilty, sexual criminals’ supposed goodness and restraint.
Thanks Pteryxx,
I’m sure you have more important things to do than educate trolls.
My memory is pretty fuzzy on it,I think it was in connection with Men call me things?
A guy who was responsible for investigating internet threats presented a profile of the usual offenders. They tended to be in positions of some authority, with a record of abusive behavior.
*shrug*
Please ignore my RFI.
I think our time is better spent looking at ratlets.
Grimalkin, I’m really glad you were able to tell that story here. You told it well and powerfully. Anyone who could read that and not understand the effects on you … there’s something not working with them
quog:
This. I’m so speechless at this thread. Excuse me for borrowing.
Katchen, Caine – thankyou.
…I vaguely remember that. He mentioned how awful doctors were, in particular. He was in charge of investigating anonymous hate emails for an ISP or some such, IIRC?
The legal code gets to decide what they are charged with and what they are prosecuted for, which isn’t necessarily what they are guilty of, the full extent of their crime or what they should be punished for.
OJ was aquited doesn’t mean he’s not a murderer.
Kobe Bryant was accused of rape. He was charged with sexual assault and then acquitted.
Doesn’t mean he isn’t a rapist. Doesn’t mean the victim wasn’t raped.
Ben Roethlisberger has been accused of rape and sexual assault. He’s been arrested for sexual assault. Doesn’t mean he’s not a rapist. Doesn’t mean the victim wasn’t raped.
None of the legal definitions make it okay for you to say none of those women were rape, just sexually assaulted.
None of the legal definitions makes it okay for you to decide that your rape was worse than hers and sneer how it’s affecting her mentally even though you’ve gone through worse.
Fuck you.
A reduction of the charge would mean a lesser sentence.
Just because it wasn’t in the photos doesn’t mean they didn’t penetrate her. Just because she doesn’t remember doesn’t mean they didn’t penetrate her.
Hell even if they didn’t penetrate her, people who take advantage of someone passed out sexually, regardless of what they do to the passed out person, are not better people than those who hold down struggling victims in alleyways. It just means they have a different method of rape. It doesn’t mean they have restraint. Maybe they couldn’t get it up being drunk? Maybe they didn’t have a condom. Maybe they came without penetration.
They raped her.They used her unconscious body against her will to do sexual things. There’s no restraint in that, they are just predators. And you’re defending them. Fucking disgusting.
quidam:
Well, then, if that is not your claim, you admit such an assault may be as severe or even more so, and therefore that this is not a mitigating factor.
—
She doesn’t know what else was done to her which was not published, only that no obvious injuries resulted. If you had any inkling of psychology, you’d realise that this can be even worse than knowing just what happened, as it lets imagination do its worst.
—
I quote Savannah:
“For months, I cried myself to sleep. I couldn’t go out in public places,” she told the newspaper, as her father and attorneys sat nearby. “You just sit there and wonder, who saw (the pictures), who knows?”
—
You are scum, you are, with this perseverance at attempting to minimise the incident by claiming it was overstated and that in any case it could have been worse — especially after people have told you it’s affecting them badly.
@quidam
By thunder, you’re right! The pictures they distributed of them sexually violating another person didn’t specifically show them penetrating her (in theory – I’m sure as hell not going to try to find them), so they were showing restraint.
We should all send them a fruit basket for the things they didn’t do. They didn’t kill her, or beat her, or cut her, either. We should give them medals.
None of us here know anything other than has been released by the court and press.
We can all speculate that things may have been better or worse than has been reported, but that is rather pointless.
But sure, if things were worse than have been reported, then they were worse.
If the perpetrators were in fact serial rapists and this was the first time they were caught then they got off lightly
Oooh subtle ad-hominem. “sadistic deliberately trying to trigger rape victims”- what does that actually mean? care to explain …
Yes, that’s exactly what I remember.
Hopefully another part of the hivemind will remember the name of the thread that contains that particular link.
Says Quidam: Um – yes. They could have raped her. They didn’t. That makes them somewhat better people that those who would. They showed some restraint.
………..
HO-LY SHIT.
Oh, and to address your opinion that since they weren’t convicted of rape, then they didn’t commit rape: I guess my rapists didn’t commit rape either, since they weren’t charged with ANYTHING.
Tethys: for what it’s worth, that wasn’t a study, that was a discussion in a comment thread. (I’d LOVE to see a formal report though!)
I’ll dig out my backup drive and search. I’m like half a dinobird without my document hoard. <_<
Don’t be facetious. But we shouldn’t charge or condemn them for things they didn’t do.
quidam:
Disingenuous little shit, aren’t ya?
People have told you they’re being triggered by your bullshit attempted minimisation of this event and asked and told you to stop (what part of “fuck off” was unclear to you?) and yet you persevere.
(Hint: you’re stupider than you think you are, but not quite that stupid)
Missed that one. Thanks for repeating what quidam said JAL.
The way it works is that the prosecutor assembles all the charges possible given the known and strongly suspected facts. This forms the indictment. In a plea bargain, usually the accused does agree to plead guilty to a lesser offence. This also reduces the possible sentencing range. Even though the prosecutor and the accused may agree on a sentencing range (what the prosecutor says he or she will ask for), the judge may decide a different sentence. Further, in Kentucky there are mandatory sentencing ranges. I see that for rape in the first degree, the sentencing range is 20 to 50 years. As I read the terms for second and third degree rape, the charges would not apply as the facts don’t fit some of the requirements, such as the perpetrator being over 21 years of age. The range for a class D offence, which covers first degree sexual abuse is 1 to 5 years.
There are exceptions and refinements on the sentencing process with which I am not familiar in Kentucky.
Plea bargains are struck every day, not because the accused didn’t do the more serious crime, but because of the uncertainty of conviction, the scarcity of resources and the effect of trial proceedings on the victim. I will not comment on the political pressures, except to say those matter, too.
I’ll be facetious if I damn well want to be. It’s better than trying, as an outside party, to rate the level of severity of someone else’s experience. I’m certainly not trying to tell victims of sexual assault how they should feel about it.
You do know that there are many, many rapes that go un-reported, and therefore un-prosecuted, right? Did those rapes not happen? Are the people who committed those crimes not rapists, simply because they haven’t been charged?
It’s not that they were not convicted of rape, rather that there seems to be no evidence presented that a rape happened. There is evidence that an assault happened.
Maybe you should include PZ in your hissy fits. After all he doesn’t mention rape in his original article either, he ‘only’ mentions assault. As do all the news and court reports.
Tethys: I found it in my hoard, and ironically, you’re recalling *a comment I made*!
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2011/11/not-just-making-it-up/#comment-23533
Quoting my own speculation:
Obviously there won’t be a one-to-one correspondence, nor would I claim that any particular persistent misogynist troll must therefore be a predator… but I’m darned sure there’s significant correlation. Without specific research, that’s all I can say. /derail
Quidam:
That one. That’s the message that should be sent to every woman that you know, so they can be warned as to what kind of person you are. A person that thinks these two rapists are ‘better people’ than a different kind of rapist, simply because of what part of their bodies you think they put inside of an unconscious woman while they took pictures which they shared with their friends to brag about putting parts of their bodies inside of an unconscious woman.
And not even a spineless not-pology for the genuine harm you’ve done and are doing to the real live human beings reading this thread? You mean to tell me that you are so devoid of compassion that you don’t even know to pretend to feel bad about hurting people?
The world would be a better place indeed without people like you.
quidam
And yet you are castigating people because they have failed to appreciate the immense difference between two charges specified in Kentucky law.
Basing an argument against others using the specifics of the charge for which they were convicted, is a weak position. Given the reality of the system, I would add that it is a very weak position with no apparent merit.
Basing an assessment of the two referring to their restraint is also without merit. They put forward their best position in that plea bargain. That was their highest case.
Being held accountable in public seems reasonable.
You are trolling, and you are also a lying fuckwit.
^not an ad-hom argument^
Fine, so let’s re-word this you worm.
Since there is no evidence of my rape, does that mean that I wasn’t raped?
Pteryxx ♥
You are made of awesome.
quidam specimen:
Hissy fits, eh?
BTW, PZ also wrote:
You are one of those who would shelter some who should be shamed.
(May you reap what you sow, may poetic justice make itself known to you)
Are they saying she wasn’t raped?Are they saying her rapes wasn’t bad since she had no memory of it? Are they minimizing what the victim has had to go through and deal with?
Are they defending the rapists? Are they blaming the victim for naming her rapists?
You are, so fuck the hell off already.
Oh, and here’s the relevant Lisak quote:
from “Understanding the Predatory Nature of Sexual Violence”
http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/pdfs/PredatoryNature.pdf
quidam, fuck off already! You’ve done enough harm for one scumbag.
Yes. Since you asked:
1. You sound like a rapist and a predator to me.
2. You frighten me to the point where, if I knew who you were in meatspace, I’d warn friends and passers by to give you a wide berth.
3. I’d go to considerable lengths to avoid being anywhere you were that didn’t have a crowd of people in broad daylight and in public.
4. I’d take special care to warn young women about you, if I knew your identity, and I’d do everything I could to watch over them.
Yes. You seem like a rapist. No, I don’t trust you.
Is that clear enough?
Pterryx, linkbork @ #355?
Ack, nm, problem on my end.
well heck, darn PDFs. Try these:
http://www.innovations.harvard.edu/showdoc.html?id=134841
http://www.middlebury.edu/media/view/240951/original/PredatoryNature.pdf
That quidumb thinks that trying to rules-lawyer a distinction between sexual assault and rape in a case where that distinction is an irrelevant semantic, is somehow appropriate or meaningful in any way is pretty revealing of the pathetic cesspool of rancid vomit it seems to be using in lieu of a conscience it clearly does not have.
I’m fairly convinced that there was a ‘rape’.
According to Stephanos Bibas in his study on plea-bargains in the Harvard Law Review, 90% of plea bargains are pled down to a lesser crime that gives a lesser sentence than the crime the defendant is charged with. Two rapists pled guilty to 1st Degree Sexual Abuse, which is a Class D felony. If you will peruse the list of crimes on the link you provided, you will find that all of the Class C felonies on the list involve either children less than 12 years old, or intercourse, or sodomy.
Why would they, as part of a plea bargain, plead guilty to a charge equal to the one they actually committed? Far more likely that they pled down. From old fashioned Quidam-approved rape. More specifically, 2nd Degree Rape, ‘Sexual Intercourse and Victim is incapable of consent because (s)he is mentally incapacitated’.
Oh my dear Quidam, I am ever so sorry for having a hissy fit. You poor dear! Please forgive me, as I have a pressing question I need you to answer. You see, when I was a child, I was sexually abused. My abusers were never arrested, so I have no court records or media reports to tell me if I was raped or not. If I give you all the details, will you please tell me if I was raped, or if it was just sexual assault-less-than-rape? Or if it was even an assault at all? I have some very negative feeling towards the people who did those things to me, but maybe I’m being too harsh on them?
Anxiously awaiting your reply, elltee
…and Lisak’s paper is directly relevant to the OP and the trolling apologists. From page 2, emphasis mine:
Are you angry quidam?
You certainly do keep trying to dominate and control this conversation.
Like telling rape victims their rapes don’t count…for fun and lulz!
But what about the poor rapists? Let’s not lose sight of protecting their precious reputations.
She wasn’t really raped for realz ™, cuz menz reputations!
—-
Hmm, looks like quidam has a nearly perfect score on the asshole who is probably a rapist scale.
@Stevarious
Exactly. To avoid the possibility of an acquittal, and for other reasons, prosecutors will bargain down. The specific charge agreed to by the parties usually relates to the sentencing ranges.
My experience was not in the States, but the process is perfectly parallel in Canada. There are few mandatory sentences in Canada, so the parties may have a surprise when the judge picks the sentence as he or she can ignore the recommendation from the prosecutor, but otherwise, bingo. Or do we say snap, these days?
How about this, from Lisak p. 4? Emphasis mine again:
and finally from page 8:
Well, that should finish the arguments about ruining young men’s lives, 17-year-olds not being ‘hardened predators’ and so forth.
The whole paper’s only 12 pages long, 4 of which are references. Essential reading for anyone espousing an opinion here.
fuck you quidam. and that slimepit fuckstain (good riddance), along with the repulsive neuzelaar.
I didn’t think I could be triggered, but congratulations ratfuckers, turns out I can. I was so upset last night I couldnt bring myself to type a response, my hands were shaking so badly. You totally fucking ruined what had been a great evening (darling wife doesnt have liver metastases) and made me feel worthless. fuck you, and I hope you all die screaming, alone and reviled.
It is good to know that I am, after all, human. fucked if I wanted to find out like this though. I had to stop reading, and cried for a while. then watched a couple of QI XL episodes (45m not the abridged ones), and Stephen Fry et al made me feel good again (that man is a treasure).
Oh, and I guess I was never raped, repeatedly, between the ages of 9 and 12 (no idea how often, 30 < n < 100) by my grandmothers boarder, because I never said anything and he was never prosecuted. I guess all my bad behaviour was just me being bad. hilariously, my parents used to send me to my grandmothers house when they got sick of my behaviour, and she made me sleep on the floor of my not-rapists room. hahahaha isnt life just peachy. besides, I'm a guy, so thats totes not real rape, amiright?
this also means my aunt wasnt repeatedly raped by her father and two brothers, who then didnt repeatedly rape their sons and daughters. yay, my family on my mums side arent all fucking rapists and paedophiles.
back in the real world, I just want to add my thanks and support to the Horde for making pharyngula a safe space. To everyone who has shared – OMFSM, my heart is torn asunder, and I literally weep for you all. your strength humbles and inspires me. I read every single one of these threads, even though it hurts – but at the same time, it both heals and improves me. I can honestly thank Pharyngula, and Pharyngula alone, for saving me from the dark side. I'm not there yet, but the journey is underway and irreversible.
Fuck you. No, really. Fuck you.
Either you didn’t read through any of the stories in this thread, or you are purposefully belittling the experiences of the people who wrote them.
To suggest that an abuse that doesn’t involve violence isn’t as bad as one that does if fucked up. To suggest by extension that my abuse was by definition not as serious as it would have been if my abuser had used the threat of physical harm instead of emotional mind games and coercion, just because the law rates one as worse is entirely fucked up.
Emotional mindfuckery is a fucked up animal to deal with. Someone gets inside of your fucking head and manipulates you without you even fucking noticing for their own sick pleasure, and after it’s all over you blame yourself for everything because you “chose” to do everything or you were “stupid” enough to be tricked and manipulated. Savannah’s brand of mindfuckery she has to deal with now- the constant worry of what happened, who saw, who knows -is just as fucked up.
The thought that physically overpowering someone is ipso facto a worse thing than that is just fucking wrong. The idea that my abuser was a better person because he used trickery and deceit instead of physical force is just fucking sick. The idea that he deserves less punishment for his crime of sexually using a young girl because of how he went about doing so is fucking despicable to even suggest.
And I don’t fucking care if you think saying so is giving a “not as bad as he could be” kiddiefucker more punishment than he “deserves”. He deserves his fucking head on a spike. All rapists do. Savannah’s rapists do, whether they penetrated her or not. And before you start whining about ~condemning~ the poor babbies to things they don’t deserve, lemme just fucking stop you. You know who else received something that they don’t deserve?
RAPE VICTIMS.
So boo-fucking-hoo if some fucking rapist gets a punishment worse than he ‘deserves’ becauses he oooonly molested a sleeping girl and distributed images of the event, it’s not like there’s proof that he penetrated her with his penis tooooo!’
But really, really, just to reiterate, did you read any of the fucking stories posted throughout this thread? Did you notice any of the parts of the many stories that involve being told shit exactly like what you’re saying, about minimizing abuses because they don’t ‘count’ as being ‘severe enough’ or ‘real’? Did you read the fucking parts about how damaging and terrible and all-around-fucking-awful that is for victims to deal with?
Did you seriously fucking read and take in all of that and still come in here to do the exact same shit that causes massive problems for victims of abuse, the exact shit that some people, includng myself, called you out for explicitly?
Seriously?
Because if so, what in the everloving fuck is wrong with you?
This isn’t about what the law says or what the law is for or whatever bile is floating through your head that passes for thoughts. This is about basic fucking humanity.
And I’m going to second JAL here. I personally think you’re past rehabilitation and I don’t think you have a decent fucking answer to any of the questions I’ve asked. But I’m tired of people just like you minimizing my experiences and everyone else’s experiences and making us feel like abject shit because of it, and now I want to be fucking angry about it. I’m doing this for me, at your goddamned expense.
@drbunsen 333- thank you, it really means a lot. And thank you to everyone else who’s had kind words for me and everyone else that gave their stories. As much as it’s still difficult to say so, it helps.
From the Lisak study.
Bolded so stupidam can’t possibly miss it.
QF horrifying truth.
You are not talking rationally and your accusation is false.
Josh, you seem like a violent psychopath. Please seek help to control your violent and misplaced fantasies. It’s not healthy to obsess over beating someone to a pulp. It can be the first step to acting it out.
No
Participating in a conversation and contributing about 1% of the posts is hardly dominating or controlling.
I haven’t said that. I have argued that words have meanings and there are levels of severity in crimes that should be recognized when sentencing. Something every law code agrees with.
I haven’t said that either.
Ditto. If your going to make up both sides of the discussion then have fun talking to yourself.
Please join Josh in therapy for your sick fantasies. You both fail in your fantasy diagnoses.
Anyway since this has long since stopped being a discussion and has now degenerated into mindless violent fantasies and demonizing there is no point in continuing. I will fuck off and find an octopus to cook. Which is the same as genocide, since all crimes are the same.
Do try to stick the flounce, despicable, toxic, lying troll.
[meta]
Specimen quidam:
There was no point in starting, either, since you had nothing useful to contribute — but that didn’t stop you.
Do it, don’t just say it.
Show that you’re not utterly worthless at something.
What a remarkably stupid attempted bon mot.
quidam,
This has been some comments ago, but you have already shown what kind of scum you are there and I can’t forget it. You said this about Caerie who talked about her rape.
You have apparently decided to ignore other rape victims now, which is probably a good idea since if you responded, you would probably try to tell them that their particular rapes weren’t as bas as they could be.
Do you realize how fucking sick that is? Can it penetrate that thick scull of yours how sick it is to tell a rape victim how they should feel about their rape?
I agree with those who say that you sound like a rapist. You know why?
You sound like you are trying to reason yourself out of a rape. I mean, maybe she wasn’t conscious, so it doesn’t count. Basically, let’s just call it a bit of groping and forget the whole sexual assault thing completely. It’s not like she has anything to feel bad about. You were quite considering, you didn’t hurt her… really much. Right?
That’s what you sound like.
And when he is confronted with the failure of his argument based on the legal system, he pretends the only comments made were
Right. I would call him second rate, but that’s way too high a rating. What’s lower than a nano again?
Following up on this Lisak quote:
Often the question’s posed to analysts of criminal behavior: aren’t they handing over an advantage to the criminals by publicly explaining how they work? (Not sure if I recall this from Gavin de Becker, John Douglas, or both…) They’re not; because with interpersonal crimes of preference, such as rape, the criminal’s motivation IS the reason for the crimes. Nobody rapes or abuses because they need money to survive. Rapists rape because they enjoy it.
So, rapists aren’t yielded any tactical advantage by openly discussing how they disproportionately hate women and need to dominate them, for instance. Either the rapists deny that any of that information applies to them, so they can go on telling themselves they’re not “really” rapists; or they’re so degraded and lacking in empathy that they know perfectly well they’re rapists and simply don’t care. They can’t simply decide to stop hating and dominating victims. If they did, they wouldn’t rape anymore; problem solved.
So when quidam says something like this:
IF xe’s actually raped someone (which we cannot know, however suspicious we are) then from laying out all this evidence that quidam’s assiduously ignoring, it’s just become rather more difficult to remain unaware.
(and that’s how *I* say ‘fuck you’.)
I rate quidum a 4.5 on a 1-10 scale. The quality control in the troll factory has been rather slack lately. The latest models hardly managed to squeak ad-hom a few times before they resorted to pearl clutching and flouncing off.
We didn’t even get any good new titles out of it, although
femtasmes violents et diabolisant does have some possibilities.
terryg: congratz and much hugs to you and darling wife.
Not sure how *safe* a space this is, with all the trolls and such; but it’s defended. Oh, it is defended.
My, what sniny, sniny, talons you have.
I call them Slashy McReason and Pierce M’Cite.
<_<
Pteryxx @ 378:
thanks! And yeah, I’m probably way off the mark with *safe space*, but it sure as shit is well defended. high-eights all round! I just stuck my hat on, so I can take it off as a mark of respect to all those who invest so much time and effort doing so. you people make me proud to be a rising ape.
*applause*
terryg &, god, so many others here: thank you for telling the truth and not letting these people get away with their hateful shit.
I’d like to offer a hug to those of you who want one.
Really?
Well, funny that I live somewhere where the legal definition of rape actually states that penetration is not necessary.
You’re an uneducated idiot.
You waste of perfectly innocent matter have just denied that millions of men, women and children were raped because there was never a conviction.
You’re assholery is matched by your ignorance.
Oh, and we probably should thank every rapist who didn’t murder their victim and put them on a pedastal and tell the victim that they should stop whining ’cause they could be dead, go thank the nice rapist for not killing you.
They are not good or better people.
They are fucking sexual predators.
They’re not playing in the same league as normal people do where the one who holds the door for the old lady is better than the one who doesn’t.
They have removed themselves firmly from the category of good people. Good people don’t rape, no matter how many puppies they don’t kick.
You’re such a fucking idiot. Is it hard to breathe and walk at the same time? You don’t fucking get to decide how severe something is for the victim. Several people here have come forth telling you that actually not knowing things was way worse than violent assault while they were awake and you fucking say they’re lying when they’re talking about their own experiences?
Go die alone. You can take all the time you want, but do it somewhere where your utter assholery doesn’t hurt people.
Translation: Bitches and Faggots, just STFU. You’re over-emotional and sensitive, probably even hysterical. It’s not that I can’t understand that Josh just told me what’s his opinion of me and not making an accusation. I can’t, but that’s beside the point. Don’t confuse me with facts either.
Also, I suck horribly at maths.
Surely the reason the boys weren’t named was because they were minors? We have a similar rule in the UK: minors get special protection under the law even when they have committed grave crimes, crimes even graver than rape or sexual assault. I think that is how it should be and can’t see a good reason for making an exception in this case, we either think children need special protection or we don’t. Would other commentators like to see the names of all children who commit crimes made public?
This may have been said already – I searched but haven’t yet read all the comments.
But the alleged stigma that’s going to follow these boys and ruin their lives? Is bollocks. The people currently bleating about the poor boys having suffered enough are the same people who will hang with them, hire them, date/marry them and otherwise associate with them, even in full knowledge of what they did. Because boys will be boys, amirite.
I find it ironic, the chorus of “but you’ll ruin his life” that springs up around rape defendants. It never occurs to those who rally around the accused that with all of their support, he’s hardly an outcast from society. The narrative in which victims supposedly get all the sympathy is laughable.
The sound of the whoosh over your head is you missing the point. The state did not make the names public, which is appropriate for juveniles. The victim named names to warn other women out there, which is appropriate too. And I tend to side with the victim in this case, otherwise there will be more victims.
Torquil MacNeil, you are an idiot as usually.
This is NOT about court records and if you had read anything you would know that, provided you had the necessary reading comprehension.
This is the court about forbidding the victim to talk about what happened to her and who did it to her. I’m pretty sure the UK doesn’t jail victims for talking about what happened to them.
That theor name is all over the internet now is because of something called the Streisand effect: hadn’t they tried to forbid Savannah from talking about this with her friends and family, she wouldn’t have needed this massive support and publicity.
I don’t really see what difference it makes who reveals the names of protected minors, the law exists (if it is similar to the law in the UK) to prevent anyone releasing that information, and that always includes the victim. In the UK, this girl would certainly be in contempt of court and the courts are traditionally harsh on that.
Am I right though that other commenters here do in general agree with the principal of anonymity for young offenders? Because if they do, I think they need to explain why this case in particular should be exempted. Many offenders who commit far worse crimes are protected (I am thinking of the notorious ‘Mary Bell’ here in the UK for example).
So, Torquil, do UK courts order a rape victim to be silent about her abuse and her abuser, thereby inflicting more pain and trauma onto her?
If yes, I want:
-evidence
-they’re wrong.
Yes, most people here actually agree that generally minors should have some protection. People here are also aware that the nature of their crime is one that makes them extremely likely to become serial offenders.
And if you think that in a case where you can either hurt the victim some more or hurt her rapist you should hurt the victim and protect the rapist then you’re a vile piece of shit.
Yes, in the UK, the identity of minors is protected and most people support that even in very serious cases like murder (although there is often a tabloid outcry and a spasm of vigilantism). I agree with that and it seems to me most others do. In this case I don’t think the victim is required to be silent about the abuse, just not to name the abuser in public. I symapthise with her and what she did, but I don’t think it is right to repeat it if we support the principle of protection for minors. That’s what principles are for: the hard cases. The courts are the right place to decide these things if we don’t want lynch mobs (real or metapoprical) administering justice.
Actually, there is protection against MSM from publishing the names too. But nobody can or should order a victim not to talk about the crime committed against them. And no cameras or press was involved. There is a limit to how far the law can reach with third parties. And telling victim they can’t talk about a crime committed against them, even in a support group/therapy, is going too far, and you know that.
Illegal order, and the perps are almost adults. You know that. One can’t stop a victim from talking, especially if it isn’t to the main stream media, which it wasn’t. Why are you essentially apoligizing for the rapists? You have a history of such problems too, like quidam above? Why not show empathy for the victim and possible new victims?
I don’t understand this. People are seriously arguing that, if the rapist is a minor, the victim shouldn’t be allowed to tell anyone their name?
Girl gets raped, but she has to protect her rapist’s reputation. Nice.
Oh, and apologists, never, ever, forget that the video of the abuse was put on the internet by the perps. Fair play says their names can be attached to it.
Well, the murder victim probably wouldn’t suffer from any emotional anguish after being forced to keep silent about the person who murdered her.
I am pretty sure that the law does not prevent this girl from talking in support groups, she is just not permitted to name her attackers in public.
Beatrice, people get murdered and we continue to protect the identity and reputation of the killers because they are minors. It is to prevent childhood mistakes from totally destroying lives and seems right to me. We don’t usually think that children are fully autonomous, that’s why they cannot vote, drive cars, pose for pornography, work in coal mines etc. If we think a crime is so heinous that an exemption should be made (and this did happen in the UK over the killing of Jamie Bulger by two young boys)we should explain why.
Actually, Nerd of Redheads makes a good point, if the attackers publicised the crime themselves, that would be the basis for arguing an exemption, but I still think the right place to decide this sort of thing is the courts, otherwise we are left with trial by moral panic.
“Well, the murder victim probably wouldn’t suffer from any emotional anguish after being forced to keep silent about the person who murdered her.”
Don’t you think her family might?
torquilmacneil:
I don’t care two hoots what you think; however lawful it was or it wasn’t in that particular jurisdiction, it was wrong.
She is even younger than sexual assaulters, BTW.
It’s odd how culture shelters some who should be shamed, no?
torquilmacneil:
I don’t care two hoots what you think; however lawful it was or it wasn’t in that particular jurisdiction, it was wrong.
To tell a sexual assault victim that she cannot name her assaulters is wrong.
Now that you’ve repeated your opinion again, please go away.
So, thank you Torquil for demonstrating that you think the wellbeing of rapists is more important than that of rape victims.
“Childhood mistakes”?
They were fucking 17!
No, that doesn’t mean they’re adults and I detest the American habit of judging minors as adults because you want to punish them more (happens in any case except rape), but 17 yo aren’t children and they don’t make childhood mistakes.
Not always, by a long shot.
John, you might think it is wrong but you need to do more than just say so, you need to argue your case. The law to protect the identity of minors is there for quite good reasons, what better reasons are there for abandoning it?
It isn’t ‘culture’ protecting anyone here, it is the law, and for good reasons. The law will never be adequate to deliver perfect justice, only an approximation, but it is better than mob rule.
Ah, so you acknowledge that not only victims but also their families can suffer thanks to this rule where they are not allowed to name the assailant.
But you think that is little price to pay for protecting the reputation of the assailant.
Yes, I think it is obvious that legal processes cause suffering to victims, imagine the agony of the survivors of the recent shootings and their families watching the killer being treated with the respect and consideration that he denied so many others. But the alternatives seem worse.
torquilmacneil:
No. No I don’t.
You don’t think the charge against her was dropped for good reasons?
—
Bah.
I tell you for the third time: I don’t care two hoots what you think; however lawful it was or it wasn’t in that particular jurisdiction, it was wrong.
And if the law says otherwise, then the law is an ass.
You know that there’s a difference between not being allowed to lynch somebody and not being allowed to say that he shot your kid? Or are you too stupid to understand that?
Not that I believe torquil’s arguing in good faith or anything, but this comparison to murder has been addressed:
In Lisak’s very first page.
PZ wrote “Shouldn’t Austin Zehnder and Will Frey be far more notorious than Savannah Dietrich? Although Dietrich should be more widely recognized for her courage.”
(My emphasis)
torquilmacneil responds: .
Congratulations, specimen; you are contributing to the Streisand effect.
OK John, I get it that you feel very strongly and like many people when you feel something strongly you feel you must be right. But just think for a minute that you might be wrong.
Yes, I think the court was right to drop the charges against her and I am glad they did, but she was nonetheless wrong to reveal the names in contempt of court.
What alternative? No one, including the young woman in the topic of this post, it asking for them to be whipped in the town square.
And we all know that public shaming of young men who committed rape mostly consists of a slap on the back or a “boys will be boys”. So there are hardly in danger of any terrible consequences.
You might argue differently for the murderers, for example.
Pteryxx, murder is usually considered more grave than rape, but it doesn’t make any difference to the point that we protect the identities of minors in general, not just when the attack is sexual, and we do it for good reasons.
I can’t agree with you Beatrice that rape is smiled or winked at, not here in the UK at least. A reputation for sexual assault nearly always has shattering effect on lives. This is reflected in libel cases where dishonest accusations of sexual violence are considered extremely damaging to reputation.
These were seventeen-year-old males, who normally would have been tried as adults given the severity of the crime. I don’t consider them juveniles, although the plea bargain that was struck did make them legally juveniles to hide their records. I see a purpose of the state sealing the records, but any third party, like the victim, can talk as they please, just not to the media. I see no problem with that. Show me a piece of paper where the victim signed and agreed not to talk. Otherwise, the court is over-reaching its authority.
torquilmacneil:
No; unlike you, I don’t take my morality purely from codified law as interpreted by a particular judge.
How about you think for a minute that some laws are too blunt a tool or that they can be misapplied?
I know what you think.
For the fourth time: I don’t care two hoots what you think; however lawful it was or it wasn’t in that particular jurisdiction, it was wrong.
That is, to tell a victim that she can’t tell people who sexually assaulted her is wrong.
(If the law was, oh I dunno, that she should be buried up to the neck and stoned to death, you’d think that was fine and dandy?)
The court would be overreaching if it attempted to prevent her from talking about her attackers, but I think she posted their name on a social media site, which means she published them in public, which is more serious.
Torquil, you’re still an idiot. She posted their names on Twitter after she’d been ordered NOT TO TALK ABOUT IT AT ALL
And if you’d read anything you’d know that.
“I think the court was right to drop the charges against her and I am glad they did, but she was nonetheless wrong to reveal the names in contempt of court.”
No, it wasn’t. You seem to have a real problem understanding that “against the law” does NOT automatically equal “wrong.”
You, on the other hand, with your endless blithering & hand-wringing over those poor little rapist boys and oh, how much they’ll suffer for this, are not doing anything against the law, but you are nevertheless wrong. See how that can work?
John, really, I know that you don’t care ‘two hoots’ for what I think, you needn’t repeat it, I say what I think regardless of how many hoots are given.
To believe in the rule of law is not the same as believing that morality can be decided by legal means or that moral behaviour is or should be limited to legal behaviour. But if we have a law that we believe is right, such as the protection of minors in courts, we need good reasons for defying the law, better reasons that the strength of feeling or a natural desire for vengeance. Otherwise we abandon the principle of rule of law. If I thought the law was itself a disgrace (such as the Jim Crow laws) then I would feel justified in defying them in order to change the situation. But this isn’t a civil disobedience case, I don’t think.
Oh god, I missed this classic: “I can’t agree with you Beatrice that rape is smiled or winked at, not here in the UK at least. A reputation for sexual assault nearly always has shattering effect on lives.”
As someone who’s lived in the UK for over 14 years, can I just say BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
You live in a dream world.
Crys, nobody (I don’t think) is mixing up legalism with morality, but if we believe in the rule of law and wish to be protected by it we have some sort of moral obligation to obey the law as far as is practical. Why should your freedoms be protected by the law if you refuse to honour it so far as others are concerned?
Shorter Torquil MacNeil:
Bitches STFU. Who cares that you were raped an will suffer for the rest of your life, those two guys who assaulted you are much more important.
You’re disgusting
And those reasons don’t apply with this sort of crime. From Lisak p. 4 again:
Offenders who commit crimes of sexual predation before the age of 18, by and large, ARE NOT making youthful mistakes and WILL NOT stop raping as they mature. Most murders aren’t committed by serial predators who kill over and over and over again before they’re caught and who can’t be rehabilitated. MOST RAPES ARE.
Crys, really, you lived in the UK and knew people who didn’t mind being described as rapists?
Citation needed.
Your inane and fuckwitted OPINION won’t change my mind, nor those arguing with you. Show us some real facts that are meaningful, like citing how her social site is a more serious threat to the perps, which is your unevidenced OPINION, which can *POOF* be dismissed without evidence (paraphrasing Christopher Hitchens). For me, your OPINION is that of a rape apologist, full of sound and fury, meaning nothing.
Pterryxx, yes, but our whole legal system is predicated on the belief that we can only punish for acts committed, not for acts we believe will be committed. If we make an exception, we open the door, by precedent, to remove legal protections across the board. Every US jail could become a Guantanamo. And the fact remains that some young men who commit these sorts of crimes in their minority will not re-offend. It may even be (in fact I think it is, but I don’t have the figs, do you?)that most men who commit sexual assaults in their adolescence do not re-offend.
In general, UK society blames rape victims, outright disbelieves women who say they’ve been raped, minimises rape and celebrates laddish behaviour, which includes extremely misogynistic attitudes towards women and glorification of sexual assault.
A lot of men here might not like being labelled rapists, but only because they think rape is a natural right & the only response us bitches should have toward it is lying back and accepting it gratefully.
Just because you don’t call yourself a rapist doesn’t mean you aren’t one.
And the point of Lisak’s research, and of all the efforts to raise awareness about predators committing acquaintance rape under cover of rape culture, is to address deficiencies in the legal system and in the assumptions of those responsible for enacting, enforcing, and making use of those laws. Such as the assumption you’re making that Dietrich named Zehnder and Frey out of emotion and vengeance, instead of her stated reason to stand up for victims’ rights.
Nerd, all I know is what is in the article on this thread, where PZ Myers says she ‘posted’ their names. I think that can only mean on social media. Publishing the names of minors is something that the court can legitimately forbid.
CITATION NEEDED, or you are a liar and bullshitter.
I thought we were talking about real rapists being discriminated against and having their lives destroyed.
Pteryxx, the research looks interesting and I am all for changing the law through argument and persuasion, but I don’t think we should obey or defy it ad hoc, according to the strength of our feelings or the depth of our outrage. And I did not imply anything about the motives of the victim in revealing the names, I was talking about commenters on threads such as this.
Nerd, I don’t have the figures on re-offending (I said so in the comment)but would be interested in seeing them. I suspect Pteryxx may be able to lay her hands on them.
As a matter of fact, I do.
http://www.middlebury.edu/media/view/240951/original/PredatoryNature.pdf
Other research on undetected rapists bears out these figures: the vast majority of rapes (note it’s 90.8% in this study) are committed by serial rapists; and serial rapists generally begin in adolescence.
Pteryxx, yes, I am easily convinced that most rapes are committed by serial rapists, but the issue is slightly different: are most adolescent sex attackers serial offenders or not?
I am sure there are stats on this (although they will be controversial because of the possibility of undiscovered or unproven attacks), but I don’t know where to find them.
Then you need to shut the fuck up without a citation to back up your unevidenced OPINION on such a touchy assertion. Welcome to science, which is put up or shut the fuck up endeavour.
Because many commenters here have read this research before and know about repeat offenders, they’re not acting out of emotional desire for vengeance, either.
Also, don’t assign a gender to me, thx. All genders can get raped, and more to the point, anyone of any gender can be concerned enough to get activisty about it.
Then get off-line until you do find them. You can’t make an argument without a citation, as you are wrong until your show yourself right with that citation.
“A lot of men [in the UK] might not like being labelled rapists, but only because they think rape is a natural right & the only response us bitches should have toward it is lying back and accepting it gratefully.”
I don’t recognise that picture Crys, rapists are generally despised in my opinion. It is true that rape is often mishandled or worse by the police though.But you only have to look at the hysterical treatment of rape in the tabloids to lay the lie to the idea that it is somehow condoned in the ‘laddish’ sections of society. If men think rape is natural and right, why should they object to being called rapists?
Nerd, you really can make arguments without citations, and the point was very tangential.
Pteryxx, I am sorry if I offended you, I didn’t make any assumptions about your sex, I promise you, I just find it clumsy to avoid pronouns in English.
Here’s all I can find with a very quick look on recidivism for adolescent sex attackers. It seems to bear out my point:
The sexual reconviction rate for adolescent sex offenders range from 5% to 14% and
are substantially lower than reconviction rates for non-sexual offences (16-54%)
(Worling & Curwen, 2001; Nisbet, Wilson & Smallbone, 2004; Waite, Keller,
McGarvey, Wieckowski, Pinkerton & Brown, 2005).
It’s in here:
http://www.forensicpsychology.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/AdolescentSexOffendersPortfolio.pdf
Beats the hell out of me. But all you have to do to witness a similar mindset is to look at any number of recent threads here to see very similar types of men make rape jokes & say the most repulsively evil things about women, then squeal in outrage when someone calls them misogynist.
It’s a very common phenomenon these days, often summed up in social justice forums as “the real crime isn’t being a racist, it’s calling someone out for being racist.”
I don’t have that mindset, so I can’t be quite sure, but it appears to me to have something to do with the self-appointed masters of the universe being outraged that a lesser being dares to criticise them.
Y’know, I just hand-fed you an article extensively cited above, with four pages of reference material in its footnotes. Stats on early rapes SUCK because of the massive underreporting and offender-shielding culture; however, Lisak’s citing an extensive body of research that says 1) most rapes are committed by serial predators; 2) most serial predators start in adolescence; and 3) by the time they’re caught, most rapists already have a long string of previous victims that went unregarded. I’ve never seen any research saying that adolescents in general tend to commit sexual assault and then grow out of it, though that’s the dominant mythology informing opinions such as ‘but they’re only 17 why ruin their lives’. Besides, this particular case couldn’t possibly have been one of those rare unicorn incidents of misunderstanding – there’s no way to mistake assaulting an unconscious girl, WITH TROPHY PICTURES, for consensual sex.
Go read “Meet the Predators”, “Predator Redux”, and Lisak’s research and public statements as well as work he cites, if you’re so concerned about getting the proper stats.
Jesus, torquil, you do get that when rape is the issue, using conviction rates as your data doesn’t count for shit? Why don’t you look at the studies linked to upthread, which took the novel approach of talking to actual men about their actual, real-life behaviour?
torquil: you just cited RECONVICTION rates, not the rates at which they actually commit more crimes. Recall that only 5% or so of rapes ever result in conviction.
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates
Pteryxx, we seem to have cross posted, I just linked to some research that does claim that repeat offending among adolescent sex attackers is relatively rare. Even accounting for unreported attacks the figure will be low.
Of course that doesn’t mean that most rapes aren’t committed by serial rapists who start in adolescence, just that the majority (large majority according to those figs) of adolescent sex attackers will not re-offend so recidivism is not an argument for abandoning the protection of minors’ identity in courts.
Of course people don’t like to be called a rapist. Rapists are bad and rape is bad. But people use different definitions of rape.
Reconviction rates are all I can find, but given the cited research that most rapes are committed by a small number of individual repeat rapists, it seems unlikely that the recidivism rate in adolescents could be high enough to call for a policy change. But I think if you want to make the case that most adolescent sex offenders will repeat their attacks, you need some more solid evidence than you have shown so far.
Here’s another excerpt from the same report. It may clarify things a bit. Here the data does not rely on convictions but only re-arrest. Not perfect, but better since arrest will generally follow from an accusation of rape:
In the most recent 10 year follow-up study of 261 male adolescent sex offenders from
two different treatment groups found that the re-arrest rate for violence was 28-39%;
the re-arrest rates for property offences were 13-20%; for sexual offences, they were
less than 5% and the recidivism rate for all offence types was 47-70% (Waite et al, ©FPP Ltd 2006 14 Adolescent Sex Offenders
2005). The average time before recidivism was 5 years and general recidivism was
predicted by high impulsivity and anti-social behaviour.
torquilmacneil, this ought to clarify for you what’s going on when people say that rape isn’t treated seriously, you see “hysterical” (btw, look up that word’s etymology for fun and profit) treatment of rape in the tabloids, and you are confused about what seems to you like a disconnect.
Then see any number of posts in this thread – including but not limited to mine at 221 – to see the effects of that problem.
torquil: first off, a “small number of individual repeat rapists” isn’t very small. Research cited in “Meet the Predators” says that around 6% to 10% *of all men* are repeat rapists, by their own self-reporting. And yes, calling for policy changes is EXACTLY what Lisak’s doing.
Your recidivism paper matches quite neatly the observed evidence that sexual offenses systemically are under-reported and under-prosecuted relative to simple violent and property crimes.
Thought experiment: let’s say the recidivism rate of actual rapes committed was 25%, following the (arrest) numbers you cite for other crimes. From the link I cited, 12% of rapes will lead to arrest. That means a theoretical 25% incidence would result in about a 3% arrest rate… BELOW what your citation indicates.
*correction: 6-10% of all men *will self-report having raped*. 4-9% self-report multiple rapes, and are responsible for the vast majority of sexual violence. The predators still outnumber the single-instance rapists by roughly 2:1.
Crys T @428
yes. 1000x yes.
Trigger Warning
:
:
:
:
:
You see it turns out that I am a rapist**. I dont think any of my male friends would ever describe me thusly, and it was a horrendous shock when I found out that it was indeed the case. but its true. I am guilty of harassing my partners for sex when they didnt want to – cajoling, whining, etc. by doing this long enough, they would often give in, just to get me to shut the fuck up. And I didn’t just do it once, either.
blinded by privilege, it simply never occurred to me that rape is sexual activity against someones will. Well I knew that, but couldnt grok that No Means No when it was my partner saying no. Instead, I took their eventual acquiescence as a testament to my prowess. what a fucking ignorant douchebag I was. but just because I didn’t call myself a rapist, it didnt mean I wasnt one.
Before ElevatorGate opened my eyes to my male privilege, I would never have considered this rape, and would have vehemently – nay, violently – disagreed with any who insisted it was so. And I was wrong, dead wrong.
Hell, years before that I had distanced myself from one of my earliest childhood friends because he’s a fucking misogynistic sexual predator. I’m pretty sure he’s a rapist, of the grooming-boozing kind that is so prevalent in universities. He can spot a serial victim (yes there is such a thing) from afar, and even in my blissfully unaware state of privilege this behaviour was so obviously wrong that I couldnt ignore it (but nor could I see shades of it in myself). And guess what – his so-called humour revolves around misogyny and rape jokes, and one of his favourite songs is the BloodHound Gangs appalling “a lapdance is so much better when a stripper is crying”.
Not until ElevatorGate, at which point the responses of the slimepitters were so fucking vile that I couldnt not see the privilege that so many at Pharyngula were raging at. the tone of the “FTBullies” was crucial to this awakening, along with the huge amount of referenced material. Schrodingers Rapist was clear and unequivocal.
But even then it took a post by John Morales, in which he confessed to almost being a rapist (unlike me he stopped) for me to realise I AM A RAPIST. I am profoundly grateful to the Horde for
educating meenlightening me, and am truly sorry for the harm that I have undoubtedly caused. And utterly fucking disgusted with myself.**Initially I wrote “I was a rapist”. but I dont think thats right, especially considering the central thesis of this thread. I can neither hide from, nor undo, my previous actions.
Cipher, I don’t quite understand your point (it may well be my own dullness)but I don’t think you understood what I meant when I mentioned tabloid hysteria. I do know the origins of that word, by the way, etymology is interesting, but I don’t think it is relevant to the way the word functions today (that would be committing the genetic fallacy, I think).
By the way, what does the ‘OM’ in your user name mean? I have noticed it in several people’s. In the UK it stands for ‘Order of Merit’ which is the highest honour the state can bestow.
terryg, you are not a rapist. If you are then many women I know are too and I am a multiple rape victim.
torquil, that’s entirely possible. Much depends on how you feel about it; but don’t dismiss it out of hand.
terryg: for what it’s worth, I hear you.
*shudders*
There is such a thing.
My second rapist was like your ex-friend in his ability to spot us.
Different tactics, same outcome. My guy, I am coming to believe, targeted women who were considered “crazy” by the people around them – because no one would have believed us and we knew it. I was even luckier, because I had given a lecture that tried to get at some misconceptions about kink, so people knew what I was.
I feel like I might cry.
Thanks for your post, terryg.
You are kind of a poor communicator. What don’t you understand about my point? And what is it you don’t think I understood about “tabloid hysteria”?
Oh? So you don’t think that word is used more often to silence women who are considered too emotional?
(Hint: You’re wrong.)
Order of Molly. Kind of like that, except for Pharyngula.
“Much depends on how you feel about it”
Really? In defining ‘rape’? I think that is a hard sell, especially since the way you feel will change over time (at what time point does the definition ‘set’ so to speak?)
“Oh? So you don’t think that word is used more often to silence women who are considered too emotional?”
I don’t think it is to do with its etymological derivation however it is used. To clarify that, imagine if researchers discovered tomorrow that the previous beliefs about the etymology were wrong and in fact the word derived from a quite different root. Would it then become less offensive to describe argumentative women you wish to silence as ‘hysterical’?
“You are kind of a poor communicator.”
Just my luck to do it for a living, too!
Pteryxx is right about the second line.
About the first, you need to not do that. You are wrong. That pushing until someone gives in, stops saying no? It is rape, or it can well be. My first rapist, who was my boyfriend at the time, was that type. Of course, I was usually crying when I “gave in,” and I was usually aware that one way or another, I wasn’t going to stop him from getting what he wanted, so I might as well lie the fuck still.
And that’s why I said that people use different kinds of definitions when they talk about rape. We can all (or at least most of us) agree that rape is bad. The problem is that people narrow down the definition of rape near enough to non-existence.
—
terryg,
I’m glad you realized that what you did was wrong and have improved yourself.
—
torquilmacneil,
Coercion ≠ consent
If “I don’t understand you” and “You misunderstood me” with no explanation are representative of your skills, that really is too bad.
Torquil, what part of
dont you understand?
sure, after the first “no” I didnt just punch her in the head until she let me fuck her. not with my fist at any rate. my response to “im tired I want to go to sleep” was to keep pestering her, keeping her awake, until she acquiesced to my fucking demand for sex. And its not like I only ever did that once, either!
yes, thats rape. from a legalistic perspective no, its not as bad as stabby-punchy-rape. From a humanistic perspective though thats a meaningless distinction. behaviour is binary – it either is, or is not, acceptable*. once the line is crossed, it doesnt really matter how far from the line one goes – the behaviour is UNACCEPTABLE.
*acceptable is also subject to varying definitions. misogynistic rape apologists most certainly consider my behaviour acceptable. but they also think its OK to fuck unconscious drunk people. I think that just makes them vile scumbags.
“About the first, you need to not do that. You are wrong.”
No, you misunderstood, I am the victim of women’s cajoling for sex, I don’t think I do it myself. I had just never previously considered that I was therefore raped. It certainly changes my status in this sort of discussion. I have (by this definition) been raped by at least two different women, one of them on several occasions.
torquil: Yes it does. Many victims of rape, abuse, sexual assault, harassment and other such culturally sanctioned crimes can’t even admit to themselves that the acts ‘counted’ until years later. It’s a well-known problem in victim support, in reporting, and in prosecution. Heck, there are examples right in this thread.
A classic resource for this is “I Never Called It Rape”. For male victims in particular, there is no cultural narrative reconciling ‘being forced into sex’ with ‘rape’ because toxic masculinity says real men are supposed to want and pursue sex constantly.
Some resources are on the link page folks here curated for the purpose:
http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Feminist_link_roundup#Rape_with_male_victims
terryg, considering that you are the rapist here and I am a rape victim, I think your aggressive tone is inappropriate.
No. She broke a court order. You haven’t established that that was ethically wrong.
Everybody says this. But when it comes down to it, most of what victims call “rape” doesn’t seem to qualify as “rape” in the eyes of society at large. It’s only rape if the victim is a woman, who is young, white, virginal, and set upon by a large swarthy stranger who beats her first.
See: quidam’s insistence that it trivializes “rape” to call what this young woman experienced “rape.”
oops, and some reading on toxic masculinity is here:
http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Feminist_link_roundup#Masculinity
Pteryxx, I think you are muddling two different things,. Of course some people are raped and deny it to themselves and/or others, or simply do not understand (many children in that category, of course) but what is at issue is not their feelings, but their understanding. An act must be rape regardless of the feelings of the victim for it to make any sense. Otherwise we have a situation where someone may be a rape victim on one day and no longer a rape victim on the following and vice versa (because feelings about things we do change).
Anyway must go now. Thanks for the (mostly) civilised discussion!
Sorry about the teasing terryg, it wasn’t very nice of me.
Borderline sociopathic is what it was.
Torquil@456:
Torquil@469:
Elementary Sesame-Street Theory applies here – one of these things is not like the other.
and wrt your tone trolling – whats aggressive about my post @466?
Ooh, I know:
are you clutching pearls because I used the word “fuck”?
*facetalon* It’s not a special-status card with bonus victory points. So much for all that good faith I wasted on you.
That’s not accurate, because the consent of the possible victim is paramount. You’re conflating sexual activity with rape, which is the sort of error that leads into ‘but she was asking for it’ dismissal of victims; and you’re shading into ‘she just changed her mind’ territory. Good riddance.
What? terryg was not aggressive with you. You may be confused about where you are. I don’t know what you actually think or what your intent was there, but being “aggressive” with people is not off-limits because they’re victims or survivors. Being deliberately triggering, minimizing what happened to them, deliberately going for vulnerabilities, or being manipulative is considered tremendously shitty, but not being “aggressive.”
For treating being a rape survivor like it’s a fucking game that you can “tease” other people with, you ought to be apologizing to a fucking lot of us.
Pteryxx – *facetalon* thank FSM I didnt have a mouthful of coke when I read that, I roared with laughter (there is a reason why I have spare keyboards).
I fucking love Pharyngula. the douchebag trolls are a small price to pay for the wit, intelligence and support here.
Torquil: oh, that was your attempt at humour? feeble. and a hint: in a thread with a deadly fucking serious topic like this, humour should not be attempted unless you are very good at it, AND have sufficient standing. Louis and Brownian are good examples, and it still goes wrong sometimes.
and rape is a deadly serious topic. read the whole fucking thread, rape kills people – it often takes years, but it fucking kills people. you should read all the comments in this thread, then hang your head in shame.
Heck, I was harassed and threatened into sex I didn’t want, by my abusive partner no less, and *for me* realizing I was raped was a lot easier than admitting to myself I was being abused. The rape didn’t even bother me much compared to all the controlling and gaslighting I endured; but I also know darn well that’s just my interpretation, and it doesn’t give me the right to make judgemental statements about other people’s experiences.
…Besides, as I deal with the emotional abuse fallout, there very well may come a time when my rape DOES hurt me far more than it does now. If it does, the groundwork for dealing with it has been laid by y’all who speak up here.
Cipher@458:
here’s a box of *virtual hugs* should you wish them
I cant recall where I saw it, but I read about serial victims in NZ a few years ago – a small number of people (a few thousand out of 4E6) were the victims of a sizeable portion of crimes – more than half (IIRC).
Trigger Warning
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:
:
One of my ex-friends mistresses is* such a person. she recounted to me a tale of going to see the guidance counsellor in her first year of high school aged 12 or so, after some behavioural problems. she’d never seen him before, and when she went into his office he didnt say a single word – instead he locked the door and raped her. then sent her back to class, still without speaking. he knew immediately that she was a victim of prolonged sexual abuse, and that she wouldnt say anything. that is one of the most sickening things I’ve ever heard.
*She eventually got away from my ex-friend, but has spent most of her adult life in and out of mental institutions for self harm and attempted suicide; I hope she’s survived, but am doubtful. She is wicked smart, but her life was utterly destroyed by her abusers, starting with her father and brother and snowballing from there.
Torquil:
The conviction rate in the UK for rape is dismally low.
You’re a blithering derailing misogynist fuckwit here, just like you are on B&W.
When I look back on what certain people put me through and the lack of resources (or even language) I had to use in getting past it, I’m often amazed that I am still on this planet.
PZ, can we please get a cleanup on aisle this one? Quindam is deliberately triggering people.
Crip Dyke, I for one am glad you are still here. you are one of the regulars whos efforts turned me from the dark side. and I grok you @483 – ISTM the question shouldnt be “why do victims kill themselves” but rather “how the hell does anyone survive this shit”.
Shit, should have more caffeine before I comment. I meant Torquil.
ah, the old “tor quil quidam” fallacy…..
I blame switching from espresso to mere tea. My thinky juice just got unleaded.
perhaps a cat-alytic converter might help. I like the fluffy ones, but my best cat ever was a siamese – he was intelligent as all hell. we used to play tag a lot. annoying meow though. purry furry lap warmers. No cats right now, German Shepherd thinks they are self-propelled chew toys.
I have a cat, but he’s not so much interested in acts of generosity as he is interested in interrupting anything which may otherwise be productive, because I am a cat servant. Won’t touch me for cuddles when my lap is empty, but will sit on my keyboard and stare while I’m trying to write, with a rather intense look, until I cave and allow him to get pets. He’s also very chatty, and herds people until he gets the ‘right’ food.
:D
The past decade has been one of the most de-sheltering experiences I’ve ever had. Apologists for child rapists in the Catholic church, apologists for bullying, and now apologists for rape in general.
The rules lawyering I’ve seen from the earlier trolls is like a more horrifying version of “I’m not touching you!” where a child justifies wantonly violating their victim’s personal space because, technically, the adult told them not to touch the victim. The victim still suffers.
Things don’t become okay because of legal technicalities and loopholes. Rape is wrong because it causes suffering, and rape victims suffer in a wide variety of ways. There’s no magic permutation of legal circumstances that turns a rape into a non-rape because the victim still suffers. Unless you’ve got demonstrably accurate psychic powers, don’t tell them they didn’t really suffer and expect us to accept such an outrageous conclusion.
Unless Austin Zehnder and Will Frey grew up in a locked box, they would know that what they did would cause great suffering, and thus be wrong. This isn’t something that could be done on accident, or attributed to youthful ignorance at frikkin’ 17 years old. Supposedly, society should teach them to keep their hormones under control, at least enough to not rape people, but the fact that we’ve got people defending them encourages destructive, anti-social people to be as brazen as they were, because it tells them that society doesn’t expect them to have any self-control whatsoever when it comes to sex. Boys will be boys.
—
Thanks to everyone who has shared their experiences. It takes great courage, and everyone should be offering emotional support, like I hope to. It’s just sick that we have people who want to baselessly dismiss the suffering you’ve gone through.
AND …. HERE’S THE TRUTH:
THIS IS HOW IT REALLY HAPPENED:
She passed out topless after a throwing up violently from alcohol poisoning ….they only took pictures. The boys plead guilty to sexual assault because it has fewer repercussions than child pornography charges. Thus why the DA accepted the plea, in cases of “rape” plea bargains are very rare because evidence so incriminating can support the crime.
It was only when she heard about the pictures MONTHS later and decided to take legal actions. The Courier Journal, who originally published the story, is facing a lawsuit for publishing false allegations because Dietrich used the words “rapists” and such when interviewed. She was not raped and the media now is painting the boys charged as rapists.
THE PROBLEM IS – NOW SAVANAGH BEGAN A WILD INTERNET WITCHHUNT CAMPAIGN ASKING FOR
VIGILANTE JUSTICE FOR “RAPISTS THAT GOT AWAY”: http://imgur.com/owQzy
SHE EVEN PUBLISHED PHONE NUMBERS AND ADRESSESS OF ALLEGED “RAPISTS”:
http://fuckyoung.tumblr.com/post/28936550431
Savannah Dietrich cauzed unspeakable injustice to these boys!
Spread the word about this false rape accusation!
@Ryan
You show no evidence.
3 post rule or not you’re bullshitting
[meta]
Ing, your punctilious adherence to the three-post rule is noted and to your credit.
(But that ryannewman has outed themselves as a sexual assault apologist is not in dispute)
ryannewman:
It can hardly be a false rape accusation if they pled guilty.
@JM
I am bound by a veil of ignorance from retrieving data files unrelated to this thread
Ryannewman who is at fault here?