Here’s a little background information that surprised me:
Because the refuge is so remote and no government employees are at risk, law enforcement isn’t likely to immediately confront the militia. But law enforcement will be under great pressure to act because of the Bundys’ confrontation in Nevada. The U.S. Bureau of Land Management retreated from that confrontation and has yet to publicly act against the Bundys to collect $1 million in unpaid grazing fees. That retreat has emboldened militia members as they now face the prospect of another standoff.
A bunch of white religious nuts and far-right yahoos have been pillaging federal property to the tune of a million dollars, and the government does nothing? Don’t try to tell me there isn’t a whole lot of privilege going on.
Has there ever been an analogous incident, where a minority group took control of a remote location? I wonder how the federal government responded then.
On February 27, 1973, a team of 200 Oglala Lakota (Sioux) activists and members of the American Indian Movement (AIM) seized control of a tiny town with a loaded history — Wounded Knee, South Dakota. They arrived in town at night, in a caravan of cars and trucks, took the town’s residents hostage, and demanded that the U.S. government make good on treaties from the 19th and early 20th centuries. Within hours, police had surrounded Wounded Knee, forming a cordon to prevent protesters from exiting and sympathizers from entering. This marked the beginning of a 71-day siege and armed conflict.
Of course, that was completely different. The Bundy gang is asking for property and the right to exploit the land, and demanding that a pair of arsonists be set free.
AIM was asking for respect and that the US honor their word. That can’t be allowed.
You have to wonder if every time a police chief in America hears about a crime, his first response is, “We’re gonna do something about this! What color is the perp’s skin? Which religion? Which gender? What’s their annual income?”
Robbed of this information, American cops might be frozen in place, unable to move at all.
It’s insane, absurd, and obvious.
I will say that avoiding direct confrontation is smart. Ruby Ridge and Waco got all those numbnuts fired up, culminating in Oklahoma City and a WHOLE bunch of abortion clinic bombings and violence aimed at the LGBT community (Eric Rudolph) that was more or less ignored by the national media.
Of course, avoiding the creation of martyrs would also be a good idea in other parts of the world. And in the Middle East, we’re actually giving people a reason to be upset – killing their families – here it’s just…I don’t really know. Making people pay for the shit they use. TYRANNY!!!
davidnangle #1
I don’t get your point. Would you rephrase?
Another case with white privilege showing was Edward and Elaine Brown in New Hampshire.
After a long standoff, they were taken into custody, when the US marshals tricked them out of their booby trapped house.
The compound was recently sold at auction for back taxes.
Yeah, I’ve been thinking about Wounded Knee.
Leaving aside the issue of white privilege (which I agree is a likely factor in this situation), one might note that there is an obvious difference between the two occupations that has nothing to do with race, namely that of hostages. The Lakota took over an actual town and held hostages. The yahoos in Oregon took over a remote wildlife sanctuary building and there are no hostages. That alone could explain the difference in response.
Then there is the experience of the intervening years between the two situations; the lessons learned since may inform the government’s response. Of somewhat less import, we also have a federal administration that seems decidedly less confrontational than previous administrations. How much impact that has, I don’t know, but it seems something to consider.
None of this means that privilege is not a factor, of course, but there is plenty to suggest it is not the only–or even most important–factor.
bruceheerssen @ 6:
It would seem you don’t know much about Wounded Knee. Or the ongoing and prevailing attitudes towards Indians in the States. Or the govt’s attitude towards Indians. (Hint: the only good Indian is a dead Indian.)
If there are no prosecutions in this matter, I will happily revise my opinion. The fact that there have been no reprisals as of yet in the Bundy standoff does lend credence to the white privilege hypothesis.
Caine, it’s true that I haven’t studied Wounded Knee, but I do know that the US government has not been fair or gentle with Native Americans (that, along with slavery, is our national shame.) However, the fact there are no hostages in this situations still seems like a salient point.
It reminds me more of the standoff in which a suburban building was held by black activists… and was bombed as a military target.
CNN analyst: White militiamen aren’t a threat like black protesters because ‘they’re not looting anything’
Republican presidential candidates silent on armed militia takeover of federal building in Oregon
WATCH: Bundy Facebook video recruits new militia members to join Oregon federal building takeover
“Has there ever been an analogous incident, where a minority group took control of a remote location?”
Not remote, but I did think of the occupation of Alcatraz Island in 1969.
Something about the use of the word privilege here is bothering me. These guys don’t live anywhere near anyone but white people. Not only that, but they probably feel pretty strongly that, since they are the ones who live out there, it really isn’t “land which belongs to all of us.” I mean, put yourself in their shoes. Would you take mild offense to someone from Minnesota claiming as much right tothe land you grew up on and they probably haven’t even visited? I had a rural upbringing and knew people like those guys. They know (or believe anyway) that they work hard every day and that the only time they see an outsider it’s someone demanding something under force of law. Yes they are racist, ignorant and dangerous. But they are doing this because they are scared that their futures are subject to the whimsy of people who use words like privilege, which, if you put yourself in their shoes, is an insult because it’s clear to them that people who use that word are urban intellectuals. The same urban intellectuals who come from somewhere else and either take or command them how to use the land that they think of as theirs by right of possession. To them, the federal government is an occupying power.
None of this is to say that they shouldn’t be brought to trial for actual crimes, but seeing them as scared does humanize them some.
Don’t forget that they are for farm subsidies (a form of welfare), but against “welfare”. Why? They see welfare as for PoC, who don’t deserve any help. They cheat the government out of taxes and grazing fees. I don’t have much sympathy for those alleged militia types.
And if they work so hard, how are they able to take over a piece of government property?
There are two black eyes Federal LEOrgs gained between 1973 and today: Ruby Ridge and Waco. Sure, privilege comes into play, but the situation is far more complicated. The real question is: how do we take the institutional knowledge regarding deescalation in these situations from Federal agencies and push it down to local LEOrgs?
objdart @ 13:
Cliven Bundy’s sons are worried about their future? They have a hell of a lot less to worry about than I do, given that they have a hell of a lot more than I do, money and land wise. I’m not urban, I live deep rural, in a “town” of 79, so I know plenty about that kind of life and the people who live, and I also fully grok the concept of privilege, and yes, the privilege of this so-called militia is oozing out all over the place. People who are truly dispossessed know they don’t have power, and any actions they take are more likely to be ones of desperation. That’s not the case here. Bundy’s sons are clearly privileged, more so than most, on top of the privilege which comes from being white and male. This is a grab for attention, and power, along with being a threat display. The people they are there to supposedly defend do not want them there. They do not want their “help”.
Some historical reading:
MOVE
Branch Dividians
Indians of All Tribes occupy Alcatraz
AIM occupies wounded knee
If the Oregon insurrectionists have really brought in children, there are hostages.
Except most of these people, while rural Americans, are not from Oregon, let alone the area. From PZ’s link. “Harney County residents are mad and concerned about the occupation.” I don’t imagine having an armed insurrection in your backyard is reassuring unless you want to join them.
I think this Twitter user put it perfectly:
objdart:
1.) Those people currently doing the occupation aren’t from that place. So they’re not locals
2.) At least the leaders are fucking rich
3.) The money they refuse to pay is money taken out of the mouths of children, money taken away from schools. They’re robbing the rest of the country.
4.) I’m glad you’Re very concerned for their racist, bigoted arses
Some of the “militia” members made “goodbye” videos as if they were going off to holy war.
Militiaman Jon Ritzheimer sheds some tears in his video. YouTube link.
Regarding the Mormon connection: “Ammon” and “Moroni” are names from the Book of Mormon. Those two guys are definitely mormon. Ammon Bundy is the son of Cliven Bundy. The guy who calls himself “Moroni” is otherwise unidentified. Moroni is also the angel that tops the Salt Lake temple.
There are also the concerns of the residents of the town: they are terrified. They are hostages in all but the narrowest sense of the word.
Cross posted from the Moments of Political Madness thread.
Now that three of Cliven Bundy’s sons are involved in the armed occupation of a federal building in Oregon, let’s take a look back at the Repbulicans who supported Cliven Bundy when he refused to pay grazing fees to the federal government.
Buddy’s supporters included:
Rand Paul
Ted Cruz
Ben Carson
Donald Trump almost supported Bundy:
Buddy returned the favor by supporting Trump for president.
Politico link
Mike Huckabee sort of supported Bundy.
Republicans who opposed Bundy:
Jeb Bush
Marco Rubio
Link
qwints @ 17:
Your last link is borked. Here are some photos of the ’73 occupation:
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2015/02/27/13-images-remembering-occupation-wounded-knee-159145
And of the 1890 massacre and 1973 occupation:
http://kalamu.com/neogriot/2014/01/05/history-wounded-knee-1890-1973-in-photos/
It’s important to remember, I think, that Wounded Knee belonged to the Lakota people, and there were serious reasons for the occupation – to highlight the poverty, living conditions, and generations of broken treaties and mistreatment by government and local agencies. There’s some reading here: http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/tags/occupation-wounded-knee
Also, most people wouldn’t know that the fight for Wounded Knee didn’t end. A white man ended up legally owning this Indian land, and put it up for the highest bid, starting at over 4 million dollars, when the land was appraised for 7,000 dollars. He could get away with this, because of what Wounded Knee means to the Oglala Lakota people, as well as many other Indians.
This is odd. The schools in Harney county are closed for a week. There are no schools anywhere near the wildlife refuge. It’s remote even in Harney county which is remote.
It must be an abundance of caution. They are probably afraid on of these guys will decide to advertise their cause by doing a Sandy Hook or Umpqua CC.
Last I heard, Ritzheimer was wanted by the FBI. He was on his way to attack a Moslem community in upstate NY, and the FBI wanted to talk to him. About what, I don’t know, probably how many people he was planning to kill.
raven @26 is right. Ritzheimer has a long history of anti-Muslim activities. The FBI followed him to upstate NY. I’m sure they are interested in Ritzheimer’s latest buddy system with the Bundy clan.
More on Ted Cruz and his support for people like Bundy:
What Ammon Bundy said:
Land use bills that are similar have shown up all over the western states. It’s not just Mike Lee of Utah that backs the idea of taking large swaths of land out of the hands of the federal government. You will not be surprised to hear that all the bills are similar because they were written by the doofuses running the “American Lands Council.” That’s an organization backed by the Koch Brothers front group, Americans for Prosperity. By “prosperity” they mean income for themselves and for other extractive industries.
Mining, oil and large ranching companies are looking for profits. They already reap a lot of profit from taking advantage of fairly lax regulations governing the use of public lands. As is their way, they want more profits and less regulation.
Michele Fiori, the Nevada Republican state Assemblywoman that issued a christmas card featuring everyone in her family armed to the teeth, introduced bill AB 408. That bill demands that the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) relinquish management of all lands in Nevada and it goes on to say “Washington has no say in any land and water rights discussion, […].”
objdart:
Something else I’d like to address – your setting up an us against them situation. Perhaps you don’t realize it, but this sentence alone is dripping bigotry all over the place. As someone who lives rural, I know that many people who are busy working the land for a living don’t have a great deal of time to spend philosophizing and all, but to paint them as people who are nonintellectual rubes is not only inaccurate, it’s bigoted. Plenty of farmers are well read, and intelligent, thoughtful people, who don’t have problems grasping concepts. And all the people who live urban aren’t intellectual effetes who have nothing better to do than come up with baffling concepts. You can find smart people all over the place, and you can find not so smart people all over the place, in all walks and manners of life. Such generalized stereotyping does no one any good, and you might manage an argument if you lose that sort of nonsense.
Hearsay is that the local law enforcement is in fact outnumbered by these yokels. Even if the terrorists weren’t white I’m sure they’d be reluctant to do anything in this situation.
Maybe our governor will send in the Guard or something.
Given the wildlife reserve center is over 20 miles from Burns and in a remote location, I would not say the town of Burns is being held hostage except metaphorically.
Yeah, I know.
The Ammon militia is demanding that the Feds turn over Malheur National Forest to…them.
If the Feds are going to give away land I want some too. Something warmer and wetter though. I’m going for the Santa Inez mountains above Santa Barbara or Kings Canyon National Park. The Grand Canyon would work but there is going to be a line for that one.
Knight in Sour Armor:
Please see http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2016/01/03/the-goober-militia/comment-page-1/#comment-992267
Also, Chas just posted some more info in the first thread.
As anyone who looks knows, Cliven Bundy, Ammon Bundy, and most of the ranchers are huge recipients of federal giveaways and welfare. They make food stamps look like small change.
The grazing allotment program is a welfare for white guys scam. They pay 10% of the market rate for those allotments. It costs the BLM more to manage the lands and program then they collect in fees.
If they ever actually ran a competitive capitalist market for the grazing allotments, they would be over. There are a thousand times as many people like me that would pay good money to retire them as wildlife and recreation lands.
Most of the ranchers are well aware of this and hate the Bundys. They’ve got a profitable scam going and don’t want anyone to look too closely at it.
starfleetdude:
Right. Just because the townspeople are concerned enough to close schools, keep their kids home, and have no idea of whether or not this coup d’machismo will erupt and people will die, nah, not hostages in any sense. Nope. Not at all.
You don’t have to have a gun to your head to be a hostage.
Caine at 24
Thanks! PZ obviously mentioned it in the post, but the coverage from most sources has been bereft of historical perspective. So many articles on “imagine if people of color did something like this” while ignoring the history of occupations (both armed and unarmed) by marginalized people in the US.
Caine at 34,
I can understand the concerns the schools have and wanting to opt for safety right now, but considering the fact that those holing up at the wildlife refuge center aren’t going anywhere soon the schools are going to have to open next week anyway. People are going to have to go about their daily lives and not hide out as well, in fact I’m sure many people are doing just that today in Burns.
starfleetdude
And which Angel delivered that divine fact to you?
You don’t know what they’ll do, you don’t know how many people are on their way and what they will do.
Ammon Bundy told local Oregon media that there were 150 armed people at the wildlife refuge center. Reporters who have been near the facility say that Bundy is exaggerating wildly, that he is claiming about ten times the actual number of people holed up there.
There are also reports that Bundy tried to recruit local men to join his group, but that he was rebuffed.
And this is a followup to raven’s comments up-thread about ranchers paying grazing fees:
Link
From the website for the Refuge:
Oregon Territory was a U.S. property in 1846. 60-ish years later, this property was made a federal refuge. That status has been unchanged for over a hundred years. Is Bundy claiming that the county has spent the last century in an economic depression?
There is some traffic back and forth to the wildlife refuge center, not all of it media.
Bundy supporters have delivered generators, fuel, food, etc. That kind of traffic may extend the circle of danger these unpredictable fanatics have established.
The Bundy’s, Senator Mike Lee, Ted Cruz, and the Koch Brothers don’t really have a case when it comes to claiming that public lands should be removed from federal government control.
Link
Bundy’s interpretation of the Constitution is wrong. He also does not have a Supreme Court precedent to back him up. What he does have are a lot of radical fringe groups:
– The Tenth Amendment Center (states can invalidate federal laws)
– Americans for Prosperity (Koch brothers)
– OathKeepers
– Fox News, especially Sean Hannity and so-called “senior judicial analyst” Andrew Napolitano
etc.
Meanwhile, most Republican candidates are being shyer about jumping on the Bundy bandwagon this time. They got burned after the Nevada incident when Cliven Bundy stated that blacks where better off as slaves.
Ted Cruz did manage to blame the Oregon standoff on President Obama: “[This is the] unfortunate and tragic culmination of the path that President Obama has set the federal government on.”
A bunch of white religious nuts and far-right yahoos have been pillaging federal property to the tune of a million dollars, and the government does nothing?
If they start selling loose cigarettes, then the jackboot will come down.
Seriously, I was re-reading your comments and they made my blood boil. These guys are a bunch of assholes, but they’re small time chump change assholes compared to the Wall St assholes or the horrible oligarch tax-dodger assholes who are in the process of doing a leveraged buy-out on the entire political system. “Useful idiots” – more like “distracting assholes”
Just an FYI… Here is the Portland Audubon Society’s statement on the situation at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.
One correction here.
It’s $1.35 per month per animal unit. An animal unit is a cow and a calf. The market value for private grazing land is 10 times this. It’s a great deal for 16,000 ranchers.
So I did some digging and found the original arson cases–specifically, the announcement of the re-sentencing, which is what triggered the initial protests, though given Bundy’s subsequent occupation of the Refuge, it’s pretty clear he was mainly using that case as a justification for the protest.
http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/eastern-oregon-ranchers-convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison
I will say, I’m not sure I agree with the law as it was written and enforced. It’s part of the same overreach we’ve had for a few decades now, using the word ‘terrorism’ to justify additional sentencing. The Hammonds were guilty of poaching deer on federal lands (for which they were never actually charged, as far as I can tell), and of setting fires–however, the fires themselves didn’t seem to be part of any action against the federal government, but rather either shielding their poaching, or later, protecting their land from a wildfire with an unapproved backfire. I actually think the judge’s original sentence was probably closer to the mark.
I’ll note that the Hammonds have very much bought into the whole anti-federalist pile of bullshit, even allegedly making death threats against local federal authorities. But the laws they were charged under strike me as over-broad; I wouldn’t mind seeing them scaled back at all.
The local police aren’t going to do anything. They can’t do much. Harney county is bigger than some states and has 7,400 people. It is about the same size as the entire state of Massachusetts. It has 6 law enforcement officers. They are outnumbered vastly by the militia.
PSA:
Malheur National Wildlife Refuge
“Malheur” is French for “misfortune”
Morgan @ 43:
Thank you for posting that. I’ve been wondering and worrying about that. Per Chas’s information, the arson poachers had complete contempt for the refuge:
As that’s the case, and with the current crop of poisonous assholes in it, I’m sure I’m not the only one worried about them destroying the refuge.
*http://www.hcn.org/issues/20/582
raven @44, Thank you for that correction.
In other news, the Oath Keepers and other “Patriot” leaders are not all backing the Bundy takeover of that federal building in Oregon.
Gotta get the conspiracy theory angle in there I guess. “Probably includes some who are working the government” … sheesh.
More conspiracy theory crap:
Link
Marcus @ 47:
It was named after Malheur River, which was named so:
a national conflagration that will be fought using the principles of Fourth Generation Warfare as adapted to an American civil war
“National conflagration” is not consonant with 4GW. So they’re ignarts about 4GW, too.
Lynna:
Uh huh.
@ 45 freemage
Re sentences
Who cares if they poached some deer? It’s a trivial point.
The telling thing, at least to someone like a number of readers here who live or have lived in the country is that they set fires. This is the dangerous and, close to unforgiveable act.
Rural fires , in the right conditions, can be far more destructive and dangerous than any urban fire. Ask the Australians or google Black Saturday bushfires.
A mere five years seems a pretty light sentence.
The “unapproved backfire” sounds insane. If your firefighters don’t know about it, it is a) arson and be quite possibly endangering the firefighters and anyone else in the area.
One thing about grazing on public lands is that the grazing has social value: we’ve killed the bison herds, so we need cows (or a major bison breeding program) to keep the grasslands as they have been since the last glaciation. Otherwise they turn into woodland, which is a big change.
Not really true in this area. It’s high desert. And there are lots of native grazers; mule deer, elk, antelope, bighorn sheep, and a few buffalo around.
There might be a problem with juniper growth. But grazing doesn’t impact that much and might even encourage it. What keeps the juniper down is usually range fires. Which is one reason why the Hammonds like starting range fires.
In this area the BLM once tried a massive and expensive program to turn sage brush steppe into grazing land. They even set up a massive irrigation system. It failed. Without huge and continuous inputs of money and water, it went right back to sage brush.
numberobis @ 54:
Um, National Bison Range allows Bison to freely range, same in the Nat Park in ND / SD, and large herds of bison are now grazing all over ND, many herds under the control of Dakota Tribes. Cattle roaming about unchecked can do a fucktonne of damage, especially in a refuge (which is what the Hammonds did).
giliell at 37
It’s more the fact that before said yahoos went off to the wildlife center there was a sizable protest in Burns that took place which involved many people who were sympathetic to the Hammonds. I highly doubt anyone at the wildlife center is motivated to mess with them, or their kids.
This wildlife refuge was founded in 1908, long before these brave men were born. Leave it for the birds and the deer.
#54. The bison herds were steadily moving on, not grazing for months on the same patch of grass. Domestic cattle don’t behave that way so they do a lot more damage.
They’re aggrieved white dudes with more guns than functioning brain cells, they don’t need motivation to cause a bloodshed.
There’s some Oregon-based journalism explaining “Captain Moroni” and the Bundy militia’s particular brand of Mormonism. Link
This is funny. There’s such a strong mormon connection to the standoff in Oregon that LDS church leaders felt they had to issue a public statement distancing themselves from the Bundy fiasco.
Link
Cross-posted on the Moments of Political Madness thread.
Addendum to #60, Giliell:
Rather, they’ll invent their own motivation. Just look back at the manifesto left by pretty much any mass shooter of recent times.* Conspiracy theories, paranoia, lies and unbridled hatred, you can find just about anything in those screeds except facts and reality. They live in their little paranoid bubble, have some scumbag buddies to egg them on (4channers online or fellow militiamen from the neighbourhood, makes no difference) and, before you know it, a lot of people are dead.
So, given that the local wildlife centre has been taken over by armed gunmen,** closing schools is the first and perhaps least thing to do. Personally, I’d be tempted to board up the windows of my home or just maybe go on sabbatical in Distant Place, Alaska, for a little bit.
Heck, those folks are apparently free to move around. Maybe they’re busy tooling up right now, but what if one of them were to decide to go for a little walk when they’re done? Or they might just decide that their ‘initial assault’ was such a success that they ought to keep going. Maybe target something else. Something official, some government building … something soft. Hey, how about a school?
So, yes, keeping the the schools closed until things have settled down a little bit seems eminently reasonable to me.
*There seems to be a strong tendency towards the ‘aggrieved white’ type there…
**My drawn-out “Only in Amercia” moment stretches on.
Cattle grazing is very destructive to the land in that area, and as had been pointed out, the ranchers are not paying anywhere near fair rent/fees. By the way, anybody who eats beef has some complicity in that mess.
The federal government brought that territory into the United States, possibly paying cash for it. Parts of the land have been sold to individuals, but the rest is government land and always has been.
The “militias”, on the other hand, are not federal and never have been. Calling an armed mob of subversives by the title of our nation’s first defense is a travesty.
numerobis:
Also, about those precious grasslands – the biggest threat to them is us. Grasslands are being mowed under for development or sale. Here in ND, they are being turned into cropland. They are disappearing as I type, along with some amazing life, such as the globally threatened Western prairie fringed orchid, Plantanthera praeclara. Most of them in ND survive on the Sheyenne National Grasslands. They are pollinated by Spurge Hawk moths, in an intricate dance.
I would highly recommend this half-hour BBC Radio 4 podcast:
Before criticizing the Feds for a lack of an immediate response, there are a few elements that need to be considered. The Feds need time to assess the situation and, quite frankly, time is on their side While the group might get a number of supporters immediately, the majority will find something else to do if the Feds bide their time. The simple economics of having to support themselves will cause a lot of the group to leave If there are hostages, human shields, or the possibility of some other type of non-involved persons being hurt, they need to consider the risk of an armed confrontation. The wildlife sanctuary would be a difficult target to assault. Looking at Google Earth, multiple buildings on flat ground with little to no vegetation to offer concealment. It would be virtually impossible for a large force, the necessary number of law enforcement to handle the situation, to sneak up on them by foot. An assault by ground vehicles would be seen miles before they arrived. Of the state agencies, only the Oregon National Guard would have the helicopter support necessary for an air assault and there would still be little to no element of surprise. Helicopters are after all, noisy as hell. Posse comitatus would preclude the U.S. Army from getting involved. Oregon’s best bet is to setup road blocks and arrest the followers as they get bored and try to leave.
They get an absurd discount.
And they want to reduce that 15% of the value they’re paying to 0%.
I mentioned the poaching solely because concealing it was the motive for the first fire; I mentioned they weren’t charged with it because I was talking about the sentencing.
As for the severity of the sentence, I did a little more digging. Here’s what I came up with:
If this had not been federal land (if it had been state public land, or privately owned), under Oregon law, the first fire probably would have been 2nd Degree Arson (it was deliberately set with the intent of causing damage to another person’s property); the first would’ve been Reckless Burning (set to try to hold back the other fire). The penalty for the second fire would’ve been less–a year, maximum, and a fine of up to $6250. The first fire, as a Class C felony, could’ve led to a sentence up to 5 years–but again, that’d be the max, not the minimum as it is under the federal statute.
The federal law, having been part of an anti-terrorism bill, was pretty clearly meant to be applied to cases where someone sets a fire as part of an actual terrorist attack–something far more likely to apply to the current situation, oddly enough. The Hammonds motives are muddier, at best–most likely, they were just trying to confound a crime scene in the first case, and just being ass-stupid in the second.
Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk- wrote:
Indeed. The Bundys are from Nevada, and at least some of his militia is from Arizona. If people are going to be hyper-skeptics about this, they could at least look at some of the facts before they start the song-and-dance act…
Lynna @62,
I was about to post that link, because of course this outrageous behavior is religiously driven. Elsewhere, I’ve seen joking terms like Yallquaeda, Yokel Haram, and Whisis, waging Yeehawd, used to refer to the right wing militias.
The comparison is very accurate. These men are deliberately seeking their version of Waco or Ruby Ridge, and are willing to die at the hands of the government for their ideals. http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/i-didnt-come-here-to-shoot-i-came-here-to-die-oregon-militia-occupiers-fess-up-to-local-reporters/
By the way, simply camping there is illegal, nevermind any kind of organized sedition.
Something must be done to discourage this behavior. These men regard any kind of inaction or violent action by the government as victories. The only recourse I can think of is financial. Freeze their assets, treating them like the terrorists that they are.
freemage, don’t forget, the Hammonds’ second fire reportedly endangered the camp of a team of firefighters, that Hammond knew were there, upslope from the backfire, forcing their hurried evacuation. That’s more than ass-stupid.
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2015/12/ranchers_fight_with_feds_spark.html
raefn wrote:
They live in a fantasy world where the government is simultaneously evil and oppressive but also weak and ineffectual.
Hmmm. Given that many armed fanatics, there may be factional differences. There was a siege of Jerusalem back in 70 CE where the Romans just sat and waited while the defenders killed each other. (Maybe the feds could do some encouraging.)
And they want to reduce that 15% of the value they’re paying to 0%.
Wottid ‘ Ronmans ever do for us?!! Nuffink!!
Evidence that the ‘protesters’ are not the sharpest tools in the shed – they are asking for food and gear to be mailed (Through the USPS!) to them. They’re not even competent survivalists.
http://reverbpress.com/news/us/oregons-domestic-terrorists-send-desperate-plea-for-snacks-response-from-muslims-hilarious/
I do enjoy a bit of schadenfraude every now and then. :)
If it weren’t disastrous for the land I’d say give it to them for 5 years for free under the condition that they need to return it fit for grazing AND that they forfeit all other subsidies.
hell no! make them pay their fair share for the use of the land, If the authorities do not go in and evict them and arrest them for their armed occupation of government property because of political and public safety reasons then they should arrest them when they leave regardless of what the charges would eventually be.
They would do that and have done that before and worse and the worse has been extraordinarily bad. doing nothing is not working! a completely open and public trial is what is called for that is why we are or are supposed to be a country of law. Let them try and make their case in open court.
They talk about the land being the peoples land but they want the use of it for a person (namely themselves) not the people of the whole country (We The People)
follow the fucking law that is what it is for!
uncle frogy
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/authorities-plan-to-cut-off-power-to-militia-at-occupied-oregon-refuge/
The article includes a brief interview with Cliven Bundy. It’s awfully early in the morning to have my irony meter explode into dust:
Oregon militants are a ‘lurid a demonstration of white privilege’
And this will be a surprise to no one at all:
Fox pundit: Oregon militia are not ‘thugs’ like black protesters because they fight ‘government gone wild’
Once again, they want government help but don’t want to pay for it. Or perhaps they’re so dumb that they don’t know what the post office is?
I also note that Fox has it backwards, as usual. The Ferguson protests were against a government gone wild: The local government was clearly terrorizing and exploiting the population. In contrast, the Oregon “protests” are a bunch of armed idiots taking over a wildlife preserve. How much more evil can you get? Well, okay, they haven’t actually shot anyone yet, but it’s only because, luckily, there was no one in the building these brave protestors took over.
Giliell posted this link in the first thread: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/01/04/3735722/meet-the-child-abusing-arsonists-at-the-center-of-the-oregon-militia-standoff/
Ammon Bundy does not like the federal government. We know because he told us. He also doesn’t like people mooching off the federal government, unless that person receiving benefits is him.
Quite apart from the benefits his family has received from grazing cattle on public lands, Ammon Bundy has used other government services, services for which we the taxpayers footed the bill.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/01/ammon-bundy-oregon-protest-sba-loan
Ah, yes, those dunderheads who took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge look even worse when you dig into their past, including their recent past.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/pete-santilli-oregon-militia-spokesman
I think this is going down just about perfectly. Fools with guns and a anti-government paranoid mindset take a bird sanctuary hostage, ostensibly to support area ranchers. The ranchers have completely disavowed the fools, and the smart people who work for the federal government are currently cutting off the federal power, phone, road, and mail services. It’s supposed to get down to 18 f at night, and snow over the next few days. http://www.occupydemocrats.com/feds-set-to-cut-off-militias-public-power-public-roads-and-public-phone-line/
Sorry to plop a bare link in the comment, but the tags to make pretty links seem to be missing from below the commenting box. :(
A New Yorker cartoon addresses the situation in Oregon: Link
tacitus #66: “And the head of President Obama’s taskforce on police reform, Charles Ramsey, tells us that fixing the problem will involve much more than just fixing the police…”
I hope that’s not Chief Ramsey who used to head up D.C.’s police force. Under his leadership protesters had to be paid after being physically assaulted by the police.
http://www.alternet.org/activism/abusive-cop-picked-head-police-reform-commission
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/oregon-native-tribe-bewildered-by-gun-toting-glory-hounds-that-land-belongs-to-the-paiute/