Fuck Thunderf00t/Phil Mason. The accounts that Zinnia and Natalie and Ashley have revealed are true: for the past month, Thunderf00t took advantage of a security exploit to hack into our private mail server; when the hole was closed, he tried multiple time to use the same exploit to get back in. He knowingly and willfully violated a confidential email list. And worse, what he has since been doing (and this is how we discovered the security flaw in the first place) is disseminating some of this email to third parties.
Yeah, this is the guy who expressed such outrage at people ‘dropping docs’ on him, but he has absolutely no qualms about breaking legally binding confidentiality of an LLC, and thinks it’s just fine to hold hostage personal information on pseudonymous posters who, under the promise of privacy, had discussed personal matters and job-related issues. He is a colossal hypocrite.
Just to make matters even worse, I woke up this morning to find some reassuring email from some friends of his, who had basically staged an intervention, trying to get him to back off from his unethical behavior. I was told that he had listened and agreed, and piously assured everyone that he thought the goals of the freethought movement were most important, and that we should all step away from the petty divisiveness and concentrate on education, science, secularism, and politics. His friends wrote to me and they sounded quite convinced that he was sincere and high minded.
And then he turned around, no doubt chortling to himself, and posted another slimy, sneering, lying article about freethoughtblogs. It’s appalling. Not only has he stabbed FtB in the back, but he has no qualms about lying to and betraying the people he still regards as friends.
Yes, we want to make Thunderf00t/Phil Mason a pariah in the atheist movement, and for good reason: he’s a dishonest scumbag. The nice thing for us is that he’s making it easy: Phil Mason is destroying his own reputation with his sleazy behavior. Who in their right mind would ever trust that guy with any confidence at all?
207 comments
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tbtabby
10 August 2012 at 7:51 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I can’t believe I once looked up to him.
Hurin, Midnight DJ on the Backwards Music Station
10 August 2012 at 7:53 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I was somewhat surprised when Tf00t was invited to this network, because of his fairly obvious xenophobia. I wasn’t surprised to see him chased off quickly. This is beyond what I would have expected from him though.
Dude’s got some problems.
StevoR
10 August 2012 at 7:53 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
PZ Myers invited him toFTB once or so I gather.
Perhaps I’m mistaken but I think he was a friend of yours once.
Someone who use to demolish Creationist claptrap quite flippin’ nicely.
Those were the days.
Hell, human nature. Humanity. We suck. Myself included too.
StevoR
10 August 2012 at 7:55 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@2.Hurin, Midnight DJ on the Backwards Music Station :
[Jya-Jya Binks voice.] Weeesa all got problemz. Sumza us know it. Sumza don’t. [/Jya-Jya Binks voice.]
lordofsporks
10 August 2012 at 7:55 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
TF’s youtube videos were part of what originally got me interested in evolution and later atheism. Shame he turned out to be such a massive douche.
rorschach
10 August 2012 at 7:57 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Hacking into a private listserv is illegal. Bloggers are worried that their private emails or contact details may be revealed as a result of this breech. If any private info was to be revealed as a result of this, I see no alternative to passing on this information to law enforcement, and of course to Phil Mason’s employer. He wants real life harassment of bloggers? Let’s give him real life harassment. His choice, really.
StevoR
10 August 2012 at 7:58 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@1. tbtabby : “I can’t believe I once looked up to him.”
I can. He wasn’t always – or at least didn’t always seem like he does he does now. :-(
People change. Or reveal ‘emselves in different aspects and circumstances.
(never proud of myself.)
Pteryxx
10 August 2012 at 7:59 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Sure… it’s easy to convince your friends that you’re sincere and high-minded. Which is how this crap happens in the first place.
What I said in the Lounge: This sort of thing is why folks who show even a flash of bigotry or disrespect for others’ boundaries have to be called out on it, loudly and hard. Very often these people are fucking dangerous. The heck with presumption of good faith and mistakes made out of ignorance and trusting folks because they’re such good friends. They’d better be willing to acknowledge and commit to the humanity and safety of other people, or they are part of the cruel, terrifying and often lethal problem.
Raging Bee
10 August 2012 at 8:05 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
…he has no qualms about lying to and betraying the people he still regards as friends.
Are you sure his friends weren’t knowingly in on the game? Have you heard anytyhing from them since TF broke the promise they passed on to you? Like maybe “Sorry, he betrayed us and we’re ashamed to have supported him, and we no longer stand by him”? If not, then they’re still his friends, and he didn’t betray them because they were in on the game.
logicpriest
10 August 2012 at 8:07 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Another reason why a self selected movement with less broad labels like atheism, skepticism, etc should be made. Too many atheists are still irrational, and too many skeptics are denialists. Reading Natalie Reed’s post on this was depressing and I agree that it may be too late to save such broadly defined and easily claimed identities/movements as atheism and skepticism. Even humanism isn’t empirical enough. Some sort of movement that people like TF would never associate with, or any of those MRAs or related denialists. One which isn’t defined by figuring out that OMG there isn’t a god!
I wish these people would go away. They are really just the worst type of theists, retaining the worst parts of irrational belief systems without even the authoritarian god watching over them to force them to do it. It is like a deconverted Catholic who still is against contraception, or a self proclaimed skeptic who demands evidence and then ignores it. Depressing.
quentin
10 August 2012 at 8:08 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
The fact that Thunderf00t still has supporters is deeply depressing.
Pteryxx
10 August 2012 at 8:09 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Bee: friends don’t *need* to be in on any sort of game to stay in denial about what their friends have done. Sure it’s possible, but friend-blindness is more than sufficient to explain it. If it weren’t for friends being willing to accept each others’ word on someone else’s caliber, Thunderfoot would never have been invited to FTB in the first place.
CT
10 August 2012 at 8:11 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
yeah, this. My deeply cynical nature says that this is probably true.
kurt1
10 August 2012 at 8:11 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Same thing with the amazing atheist. If you are in the atheist movement just for “teh lulz” and outrage at the stupidity of religious people, you don´t care much, if the guy you listen to is an enormous asshole.
aleph squared
10 August 2012 at 8:11 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I tried to engage on his blog post. It was a mistake, and I ended up backing off and leaving, which is embarrassing and sickening but I couldn’t take that shit.
People just don’t understand: thunderf00t does not have the right to hold onto this personal information. Even if he hasn’t released real names or anything, even if he thinks or claims he never would, he does not have the fucking right to be the keeper of the safety, privacy, and security of other people. Especially after those people have removed him from their company.
And he’s a goddamn hypocrite after the hell he’s kicked up in the past over his real name getting out, even when he is statistically VASTLY safer than Natalie or Zinnia are (or possibly others of the pseudonymous bloggers, or Taslima Nasreen, or….)
Gregory in Seattle
10 August 2012 at 8:13 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Is this criminally actionable?
Jasper of Maine (I feel safe and welcome at FTB)
10 August 2012 at 8:14 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Generally, hacking is a federal crime.
suzysalaksartok
10 August 2012 at 8:24 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You closed the exploit? BULLIES!!!
How could you do that to TF, you horrible monsters, now he’ll have to try and find another exploit, and may eventually wind up on nasty websites and get a virus on his computer.
What’s next? You accuse him of harassment JUST because he’s practically stalking you now…
I’ll make a little prediction, ftb doesn’t seek any kind of retribution with law enforcement because on the whole they’re (over)nice, TF spreads message that FTB want to throw him in jail now.
ricardodivali having sniffles over stiffles
10 August 2012 at 8:26 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Typical, the one weekend i’m away from my computer and a prominent athiest decides he wants to commit crime and screw over his friends… AND i’m out of popcorn.
So inconsiderate.
=8)-DX
10 August 2012 at 8:29 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
As one of the people who unsubbed from him a year ago due to his pettiness, arrogance, social ignorance and islamophobia, I’m hardly surprised. TF can act all sciency and rational at times (and he’s wonderful debating creationists), but online he’s mainly concerned with the size of his e-penis.
And he still considers that poll of his own comments under a video to be scientific.
Palladium Knight
10 August 2012 at 8:30 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Fucking hell, Thunderf00t. I used to look up to you. This is just fucked up. If I had even a trace of respect left for that man, this has just gone and killed it. What the fuck, seriously?
I don’t know why, but I thought you were better than that, Phil.
ChasCPeterson
10 August 2012 at 8:31 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
tsk tsk
None of this would have happened, Prof. Myers, if you hadn’t pledged on your Absolute Academic Integrity when you promised him Total Academic Freedom here on his blog on the internet.
StevoR
10 August 2012 at 8:33 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
To utterrly paraphrase George Orwell’s Animal Fram
We all make mistakes,some of us just make more mistakes than others.
Jadzia626
10 August 2012 at 8:33 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Is it possible to take any legal actions should he release any personal information? Surely this cannot be legal …
ChasCPeterson
10 August 2012 at 8:34 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
btw, Mason has now taken over the coveted first position in my unofficial ranking of the Most Egregious Internet Narcissist (MEIN).
robertgrimm
10 August 2012 at 8:34 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Rorschach is right. If it were me, I would press charges for unlawful access of a computer system. Here is a list of laws on the subject for various states. You should contact a lawyer about pressing charges.
StevoR
10 August 2012 at 8:38 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@23.
Some of us can or do learn from ‘em and get a bit better too.
This too shall pass.
In a million years who’s gunna care? [Terrminator I movie]
DLC
10 August 2012 at 8:39 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You know, I liked TFs “reasons we laugh at creationists” videos. they were fun, and gave creationits (Creatidiots? — I think you can see where I’m going with that) no end of fits.
His poor traits were largely below the surface to me, much like an iceberg floating in a pool of scum, his personality looked nice a sniny on the top side, but the submerged 90% … phooey!
I do want to ask him though — dude, you were invited here, you didn’t fit in and so got sacked. Have you never before in your life been sacked, that you carry a grudge and even amplify it ?
Really. Let go. Shake the dust of this place off your robes and move on.
StevoR
10 August 2012 at 8:43 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Not that that means it doesn’t stink and suck and is absolutely offensive and outrageous right now, natch.
Pteryxx
10 August 2012 at 8:44 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Y’know, folks, the time to say “Don’t hold a grudge, let it go” was some weeks ago when Tfoot was, apparently, MERELY posting obsessive rants about FTB treating him badly.
Violating confidentiality and exposing others to outing and danger goes far beyond what holding a grudge would excuse.
echidna
10 August 2012 at 8:45 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
This. I can accept that someone can be arrogant and wrong about all sorts of things. I imagine that TF justifies the ethical and legal breaches regarding the emails to himself, somehow or another.
But losing sight of basic selection bias? I can’t shake the feeling that something is deeply wrong.
Gregory in Seattle
10 August 2012 at 8:48 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@Jasper #17 – Not all crimes are actionable, sad to say.
echidna
10 August 2012 at 8:51 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Let me clarify: I believe that what TF has done regarding the TFB is deeply wrong and malicious and unethical. However, being a research scientist does not exclude these behaviours. Misrepresenting data as he did by ignoring the inherent selection bias is incompatible with being a competent scientist.
I really appreciated his anti-Creationist videos in the days when I fended off creationist relatives. But now, I guess there is no way that I can see him in a good light.
Ace of Sevens
10 August 2012 at 8:51 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I wasn’t happy about him joining. I knew he had a thing for petty grudges, xenophobia and delusions of grandeur. I never expected any shit like this. I figured it would be more like Loftus.
Gaebolga
10 August 2012 at 8:55 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
So if there’s some jostling for position on your list, would you call that MEIN kampf?
And does that pun count as a Godwin?
[P.S. I have a pattern of trying to defuse tension with humor; I'm not trying to make light of this situation, just the mood.]
Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google
10 August 2012 at 8:57 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
…I find myself wondering if he’s been planning this for a long time.
When TF joined here, he opened with a series of bizarre screeds that he must have known would have gotten him the side-eye from the other bloggers. He continued this, and acted like an ass in other ways, until he got booted.
That he joined with a pre-existing grudge against either the ethos of FTB or one or more of the bloggers here seems clear (to me). Was gaining access to the listserv part of his plan the whole time?
slatham
10 August 2012 at 8:59 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I liked his youtube video demolition of creationist tripe. Seemed like someone you’d want on your side. But it seems he could simply be an opportunistic jerk. Maybe he’ll end up turning into a creationist for profit. Or maybe he’ll recover from this episode and demonstrate some integrity. I’m hoping for the latter.
aleph squared
10 August 2012 at 8:59 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
To be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised.
Exactly. Thunderf00t has lost his chance to simply drop it and move on.
pinkboi
10 August 2012 at 9:02 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Something about YouTube just attracts (or creates?!) drama kings and queens. You get extra points for being OTT in your delivery. Is it no wonder that someone like him whose videos were getting increasingly too dramatic for my tastes long before the whole thunder/FTB association and dissociation would be so emotionally unstable? Obviously plenty of the vloggers aren’t nutbags (and some are some of my favorite bloggers here) and being an emotional wreck is no excuse for being unethical.
The way he would waste his time deconstructing random youtube idiots was a premonition. If someone insults him, he doesn’t forget. This whole thing is really depressing and I really do wish he just quit when he was ahead. Even people who disagreed with him might have sided with him at first – but at this point he’ll be lucky if he can keep most of his existing supporters for long.
Sassafras
10 August 2012 at 9:04 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I don’t think that’s very likely. The listserv doesn’t sound like it has anything valuable except personal information, and he was on good terms with PZ and the other FTB bloggers before he joined. He didn’t have any reason to want the listserv before, it’s just a convenient tool for revenge now.
Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts
10 August 2012 at 9:05 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Wow. What a hypocritical, offensive douce Phil Mason is. The shithead says that he won’t, and never will “drop docs”, all in bold, and then he goes on to quote stuff that was said in these confidential emails.
Thunderfuck fans, he clearly thinks so little of you that he assumes you are unintelligent enough not to notice him lying directly to your face. Hell, who are we kidding, he is probably right to presume his fans are dolts. Holding pseudonymous, at risk-people’s identities above their heads’ and threatening to out them is fucking beyond scummy. What a fucking complete and utter shithead.
Fuck you Phil Mason.
***
Also
Shut the fuck up StevoR. You are being a fucking ass in this thread.
Quinn Martindale
10 August 2012 at 9:08 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
robertgrimm
You don’t need a lawyer to ‘press charges.’ You just need to file a complaint with a law enforcement agency with jurisdiction. One clearing house for this is the Internet Crime Complaint Center, though that tends to be more focused on fraud cases. Alternatively, you could contact local law enforcement in Thunderfoot’s jurisdiction and file a report.
You do need a lawyer if you intend to pursue civil remedies, such as seeking a protection order or initiating a lawsuit. Your state bar association website may be a good source to search for an attorney.
PZ Myers
10 August 2012 at 9:10 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
The listserv has nothing of great importance on it. A lot of it is friendly chatter.
Imagine this, though: you’re at a bar, Phil Mason’s favorite place, and you’re among friends, and you’re talking with the assumption that these people are all your buddies. And you mention your lousy day at work, and how your boss was a big pain in the ass.
Then, later, one of your ‘friends’ tells you he recorded the conversation. And he really, really doesn’t like you. And he lets you know that he’s sent another part of the conversation to another pal’s wife. But he assures you he’d never ‘drop docs’ on anyone, wink wink.
Imagine that. Let it sink in.
That’s what the contemptible Phil Mason has done. With the added bonus that he wasn’t even part of that conversation, but had snaked a mic into the bar booth when no one was looking.
aleph squared
10 August 2012 at 9:10 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
The fact that this (“stink and suck” really?) is how you frame what’s going on is a little troubling, StevoR.
Improbable Joe
10 August 2012 at 9:10 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
The weird/scary thing is that nobody talks about him here, everyone had pretty much let it drop, and he keeps doing things to stir the pot some more. No one here is blogging daily about him, while his entire blog is devoted to hating FtB and Skepchick. He’s a petty, obsessive goon desperate for attention from people who really don’t care about him. The truth is that TF is completely irrelevant, and the only way he can give himself meaning is by hurting other people for the amusement of his equally pathetic followers.
Pteryxx
10 August 2012 at 9:11 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Not that I buy the pre-planning hypothesis one way or the other, but this (emphasis mine):
presupposes the conclusion. IF he were joining with the aim of making life hell for some FTB bloggers, THEN both of those facets would be part of the plan, not reason to dismiss it. To stalkers, for instance, personal information is itself the tool they’re after, and good will is the means of acquiring it.
Louis
10 August 2012 at 9:11 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Chas, #25,
From who?
Louis
ibbica
10 August 2012 at 9:11 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@logicpriest: and who gets to play gatekeeper for this ‘movement’?
Honestly, this whole ‘I’m a member of This Movement or That Movement and YOU are not really, pffft’ is a little tiresome.
That some people slip from skepticism to hyper-skepticism doesn’t mean they then can’t claim to be ‘skeptical’.
That some people who don’t think a god exists display hateful behaviour towards others (whether based on religion or along any axis of privilege that exists) doesn’t mean they don’t qualify for the ‘atheist’ label.
That some people who reject supernatural or religious ideals as the basis for morality are convinced by ridiculously flimsy ‘evidence’ for some claim or other, doesn’t mean they don’t get to call themselves ‘Humanist’.
I suggest instead that (the generic) you treat every other person as though they were, you know, a person, and call out anyone who’s not doing likewise. That you critically question claims being made, actively seek counter-evidence concerning your pet hypothesis about any issue, and call out anyone who’s not doing likewise. Whatever “group” or “movement” you choose to identify with would only be bettered by such behaviour.
PZ Myers
10 August 2012 at 9:12 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
StevoR: Leave this thread. One more stupid, ignorant comment and you’ll get to be the first person I put on automod.
McC2lhu saw what you did there.
10 August 2012 at 9:14 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Esteleth @36:
That’s a scary proposition. It’s web log writing. It’s not like someone punched his mom in the face. If he’s got a grudge and vendetta against someone who writes stuff on the interwebs and would go through all that kind of plotting to break laws to out their personal info, that is just so way too fucked in the head. We have no proof of that, of course, but given the antics, it suddenly seems plausible.
gussnarp
10 August 2012 at 9:17 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@PZ Myers #43 – Yeah, I’ve had pretty much exactly that happen to me, except it was just a few people in a private room, not a bar, and they didn’t tell me, I just heard from someone else what I had said, in confidence, while intoxicated, and entirely out of context being used against me. And this story of the email list definitely gives me exactly the same feeling I had then.
SC (Salty Current), OM
10 August 2012 at 9:17 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
At a bare minimum, I can’t imagine any journal trusting him to be a reviewer (or, needless to say, in any other position of confidence).
***
Something about his previous behavior brought to mind the Orlando Figes controversy, which made this less surprising to me.
Louis
10 August 2012 at 9:21 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And people wonder why I value pseudonymity/anonymity on the internet so much. This is abhorrent. The splash damage of publishing those emails to PZ (or someone similarly privileged/safe) is negligible to zero, the splash damage to someone like Natalie who has genuinely got things to lose based on the societal prejudice she operates within…huge.
Hell, I just work in science and I keep my real ID separate from this, even though I use my real first name. The reason I do this is because I really could suffer consequences (and actually have in the past) if some loon ball gets it into his or her head to make life awkward.
I hope this blows over with minimum consequences for everyone.
Except Thunderf00t.
Louis
StarStuff, a soulless cunt
10 August 2012 at 9:32 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Tf00t is creepily obsessive about FtB. I thought that before this email incident, but now he’s reaching (literally) criminal levels of obsession. Seriously, what is wrong with this guy?
Esteleth, Who Knows How to Use Google
10 August 2012 at 9:33 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Deliberately outing a trans person – something that is possible just by speaking or printing their name – is a matter of great importance. It can, and has, led to people dying.
That TF has the ability to do this and has demonstrated that he doesn’t give a fuck about the risk honestly frightens me. So yes, there are matters of great importance on the listserv.
ricardodivali having sniffles over stiffles
10 August 2012 at 9:34 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
The metaphor should probably involve the fact that he was chucked out of the bar for being an idiot, then broke in the back way to do his recordings… which he has already sold on.
He is way past mere threats.
Quite simply. He is now a criminal.
Thomathy, Holy Trinity of Conflation: Atheist-Secularist-Darwinist
10 August 2012 at 9:36 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Holy fuck, it does get worse. And here I thought we could forget about the scumbag. Let’s not let his name be forgotten. Phil Mason, epic, hypocritical, lying, douchecake.
Woo_Monster, Sniffer of Starfarts
10 August 2012 at 9:42 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Phil Mason: obsessive, vicious, criminal, lying, asshole.
mythbri
10 August 2012 at 9:45 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@PZ
When you say there was nothing of great importance on the listserv, does that mean that people like Natalie, Zinnia and the anonymous bloggers are safe from being outed by this massive creep? If they’re not, can legal action be pursued?
rogiriverstone
10 August 2012 at 9:46 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
And yet, PZ finds it beneficial to use TF’s real name in the title of his blog post. Rather like DARING TF to reveal confidential info! Another cis privilege blunder!
Thomathy, Holy Trinity of Conflation: Atheist-Secularist-Darwinist
10 August 2012 at 9:47 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
In review, he’s also criminal. I don’t know about the laws in the States, but what he’s done, expecially the part where he gave the info away, or would, is very, very illegal in Canada. Actually, just the part where he got the info is incredibly illegal.
LykeX
10 August 2012 at 9:48 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
What do you mean “if” ?
The first real post he made (after the intro) was slamming FTB. He came out swinging. It’s not as if he joined and after a few weeks found that there was a disagreement.
He joined with the intent to start a fight. Let’s not beat around the bush on that.
Thomathy, Holy Trinity of Conflation: Atheist-Secularist-Darwinist
10 August 2012 at 9:48 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
rogiriverstone, are you stupid? Phil Mason’s name has been widely known for quite a long time now.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
10 August 2012 at 9:50 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE if you had bothered to be a true intellectual and use google to check out your facts before making an ass of your self due to ignorance.
hyperdeath
10 August 2012 at 9:51 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Are all the kooks going to accuse FTB of bullying Thunderf00t?
[Checks the #FTBullies hashtag...]
*sigh* Yes they are. I get the impression that if Thunderf00t repeatedly stabbed PZ, then Stangroom, Kazez, Kirby and all those anonymous obsessives would castigate PZ for getting Thunderf00t’s knife dirty.
niftyatheist, perpetually threadrupt
10 August 2012 at 9:52 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
This is unbelievable. I’ve never known much about this guy – and now I am glad. Damn.
hyperdeath
10 August 2012 at 9:54 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
*sighs again*
Thunderf00t’s real name was given away very slightly by that video he made, outing himself.
PZ Myers
10 August 2012 at 9:55 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Natalie and Zinnia are obviously very concerned: nobody is safe. Ask yourself: why the hell was he scanning our email anyway? Because he was looking for tools to get revenge. You know he was poring over that stuff looking for any hint that he could use as leverage.
Thunderf00t’s identity as Phil Mason is old news. He outed himself long ago, and in fact, he had me participate in the video in which he announced his identity.
Sassafras
10 August 2012 at 9:55 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Pteryxx –
Yeah, I didn’t choose my words very well. I just meant that from what I saw (and I definitely could have missed something), he was on good terms with most of the FTB bloggers and didn’t have much reason to want their personal info at that time. He could of course have had a secret grudge or something hidden motivating him, I just think it’s more likely that he didn’t have prior plan, but his ego just can’t stand being rejected and the listserv was just convenient for his revenge rather than his initial goal.
I really just think attributing prior planning to him is giving him too much credit. He’s just malicious and lucky enough to have found a helpful tool.
DLC
10 August 2012 at 10:02 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Me @ 28 :
Man could I ever have said that better. Allow me to revise and extend my remarks :
It was not my intent to make excuses for Phil Mason’s bad behavior, or suggest he should not be held accountable for his actions. What I was really getting at is that I feel it’s really poor sportsmanship to get sacked from a position (here or anywhere) and then go on plaguing the place like some kind of spoiled child who’s holding their breath until mummy and daddy do what they want. My point was — having been sacked, TF should have just gone back to his youtube digs and left it go. That would have been the adult, rational thing to do.
(FWIW I’ve been sacked quite a few times in my life, and it was always handled on my end in a businesslike manner)
v0idation
10 August 2012 at 10:12 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I literally don’t understand how it could have come to this. It makes no sense. I used to look forward to the output of both PZ and Thunderf00t. Check out c0nc0rdance’s attempt to evaluate only the perceived facts.
congaboy
10 August 2012 at 10:12 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
This is extremely serious and if Mason lives in the U.S., he has exposed himself to legal actions. The people affected by his actions may have a real civil action against him (not to mention criminal action as well). They should file suite and request injunctive relief against Mason using their private information. They could ask the court to issue a protective order prohibiting Mason from disseminating their information. Then, they could ask for an order to seize his computers, hard drives, and other equipment that he uses to store and send the protected information. The computers and other equipment could be seized, if the court was convinced that the equipment was evidence in a pending action for any damages caused by Mason’s actions and the seizure would be necessary to prevent Mason from destroying evidence. This guy needs to be shut down quickly and there are legal and proper ways to do it.
PZ Myers
10 August 2012 at 10:14 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
“perceived facts”: right. c0nc0rdance did not talk to anyone here and had no access to any of the information we do.
consciousness razor
10 August 2012 at 10:22 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
No, he wasn’t. He had a grudge against them at least going back to his very first article here. I also doubt he was planning this all along, but I cannot believe his first article was written by someone who was on good terms with the bloggers here. It probably started well before that, since his involvement with FTB wasn’t that long ago and since people don’t typically change so drastically within such a short period of time. Perhaps he was recently struck on the head and became a raging asshole. I don’t know. But according to others (since I’ve only watched a few of his videos) there were signs for a long time giving him away as a bigot, which obviously would put him at odds with most people here.
leighshryock
10 August 2012 at 10:23 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
As someone who used to watch Thunderf00t’s ‘creationism’ videos and science videos, I was shocked when I saw his displays of his darker side.
The hacking incident displayed here, however, puts him on a whole new level. I don’t like the term ‘irredeemable’, but this puts him pretty close to it in my eyes. He would have a lot to make up for to become someone I admire again.
Ace of Sevens
10 August 2012 at 10:23 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Not just that, c0nc0rdance’s presentation of the publicly known facts is rather selective. He says PZ shoudl have explained to TF why he was wrong and moved on, but leaves out PZ tried to do this and TF wrote post after post and refused to move on.
kieran
10 August 2012 at 10:28 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I just found it weird, somone working in an academic environment would have any issue with harrassment policies. Day one you’re usually brought through them and if you work in a lab you’ve safety statements. Didn’t understand his reaction to them, when they are standard for your work life.
Kicking kicked off a network and a “job” then getting back onto the private network just to sit there and collect information. Seriously get some help!
Making a few videos bashing your former network fine, but basically threatening peoples privacy and off line life, get help!
Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle
10 August 2012 at 10:37 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
He’s someone who apparently genuinely believes he’s never wrong, has a loooooong history of bigotry and doesn’t respect boundaries.
The fact that he’s allowed something so small to completely derail him and destroy his own credibility speaks to how strongly dude believes in his own superiority.
Now that he’s shown to have absolutely no care for how much danger he puts others into over his narcissism, one has to pause and wonder, what are *HIS* boundaries? are stalking and harrassment next? phyisical violence? How low would someone with such an obvious lack of decency, common sense and empathy go?
mythbri
10 August 2012 at 10:39 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
This is incredibly awful on multiple levels. First and foremost, the safety and anonymity of FtBloggers who are potentially in very real danger if this compromised information is leaked on a larger scale than it already has been. Second, this must be seen as a massive betrayal to the people who, even just recently, were still trying to reach out to Thunderf00t and attempt futile mitigation of the split and ensuing conflict. I’m not saying that I agree with those people, but friendship and privilege have the power to blind us to what can be seen objectively from the outside. And third, this is how Thunderf00t is going down. In flames. This could potentially have real-world consequences for HIM, too, but at this point he appears so self-righteous in his delusion that he either thinks of himself as a martyr or as the Joker. Either way, that ends in destruction.
I hope that the repercussions of this are as minimal as possible, for safety’s sake.
georgebean
10 August 2012 at 10:42 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I was a subscriber to Tf00t for several years but unsubbed a couple of years ago after a series of shamelessly dishonest videos, which revealed he could be a very nasty, irresponsible and destructive megalomaniac with his channel.
But this is a new low, even for him. His meltdown after his firing at FTB shows he’s really reeling over it; his reaction is so disproportionate I suspect there are deeper personal or professional issues of some sort and he is just not coping.
I don’t know what he may or may not be guilty of here, but obviously somebody involved has just gone too far. I’d urge you take the advice others have given here and investigate taking some kind of legal action here. Hacking and extortion? Jeez.
Marcus Ranum
10 August 2012 at 10:44 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Hacking is a crime, but good luck finding a DA who’ll prosecute. And the FBI only get involved if there’s something press-worthy and the USS only get involved if there’s banking and a bunch of $ involved. I’m sure PZ and the hive mind have already assessed their chances of doing anything about it as hardly being worth it. What PZ’s done – outing the story – is pretty clever, really. He’s clearly shit the hot tub now, and has burned whatever respect remained for him in the community. For someone with obvious ego problems, that’s gonna hurt worse than a mule-kick in the ass.
I’ve never looked at FTB’s security (it’s kind of a professional no-no to audit a site without being invited to! kind of like giving someone a free unexpected colonoscopy, and expecting them to thank you) but I’ve long wondered that none of the various crazed zealots out there haven’t tried this kind of thing before. Most sites that have user provided links (like the embedded youtube videos) have potential cross-site scripting attacks. It’s really hard to get that kind of stuff right.
Make sure you guys keep good backups and have arrangements so you can repopulate another server quickly if you need to!
Sassafras
10 August 2012 at 10:46 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
consciousness razor-
I was referring to the idea previously floated that he might have been planning this specific action with the listserv before he even joined, before his first post here. I agree with you about his blog posts, he was clearly trying to stir up shit, I just don’t think there was that much foresight on his part.
Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Human Being
10 August 2012 at 10:56 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Thomathy:
Yes, they are. Profoundly. Evidence will not be linked, in accordance with the reset rule.
Regarding V0idation’s comment about c0nc0rdance…. among atheist vloggers, does a zero in place of an o in one’s handle indicate reliably that one is a fuckwit?
consciousness razor
10 August 2012 at 11:10 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Sassafras:
Sorry, then I misunderstood. By the looks of it from Thibeault’s article, he wouldn’t have needed to do any “planning” anyway. He was just able to exploit a hole in the security which the system had left open for him.
Thomathy, Holy Trinity of Conflation: Atheist-Secularist-Darwinist
10 August 2012 at 11:13 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Ms. Daisy Cutter, I’m surprised I don’t have memory of that …person.
Have you read Natalie’s blog post? I don’t want to comment again, to add my unvoiced support for her a part from my extreme gratitude and I has a tear, …because yeah.
Seriously considering hate at this point. Phil Mason is a very bad person.
Rev. BigDumbChimp
10 August 2012 at 11:14 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’m pretty sure I can predict what the TF fanboi’s response to this is going to be.
aleph squared
10 August 2012 at 11:18 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yeah, within a few comments someone was already comparing Ed Brayton to Robespierre (refreshing that it wasn’t Hitler or Stalin for a change, I suppose.)
Matt Penfold
10 August 2012 at 11:19 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
There is always the potential for taking out an injunction preventing Mason from publishing any of the information in the emails he stole. That way if he did leak any he would face serious legal penalties.
consciousness razor
10 August 2012 at 11:22 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
“FTB’s mailing list was wearing a short skirt, looking all vulnerable and playing coy and stuff. It was clearly asking for it.”
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 11:51 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yeah, they’re all a bunch of little freedom fighters, aren’t they?
KG
10 August 2012 at 11:53 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
What a putrid shit-dipped slimeball Thunderfart is. And what a petty-minded fool rogiriverstone once again shows hirself to be.
jackthejoker
10 August 2012 at 11:56 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’ve been adamant to stay out of this little internet melodrama that is thunderf00t and I’ve kept my head clear of the FreeThoughtBlogs community as well (I prefer the LeagueOfReason, myself).
But, to sit here and read through and see all I’ve been presented with is accusations of foul play without evidence and the idiocy of people to eat it up without a second thought is utterly disgusting.
If one is going to call someone out and threaten another’s reputation in such a manner, you’d damned well better have the evidence to back it up instead of jumping the gun – and, as my father once said, those that have the truth on their side would let the evidence speak for them.
What if Thunderf00t is being a jackass and this is just the act of one of his fanboys trying to be “helpful” in some deranged way? It’s not a crime to be a fucking idiot.
So, what I’m waiting on is evidence. Link thunderf00t to your statement or withdraw it with an apology.
As for the rest of you – never take someone on their raw word without facts and evidence. If you wanted that then you’d be in a church pew on Sunday singing hymns.
With All Due Respect,
Jack
Matt Penfold
10 August 2012 at 11:58 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
rogiriverstone, according to her Facebook page is a freelance radio producer.
One can only hope she applies different ethical standards in her professional life, since when commenting here she has shown herself to be a lying scumbag.
Ace of Sevens
10 August 2012 at 11:59 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@92: Jason Thibeault explained how the hack worked on his blog. Only Thunderf00t could have done it. Also, Thunderf00t admitted it in his latest blog post.
Charly
10 August 2012 at 11:59 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Well, I was still subscribed to Thf00t, because I did not want to miss his future science videos, but this was the final straw that got me unsubscribed, thing I have been considering for over a year now.
I somehow understand holding a grudge over the percieved unfairness of FfT on his part. I even somehow relate to his huge blindspot in regard to this issue. Nobody is perfect and everybody behaves dumb at times.
But hacking into private e-mails and then making their content public (even if only in part and with personal info censored) is beyond reprehensible. There might be explanations for this behavior, but there are no excuses. I can do without his science videos, he makes them very rarely nowadays anyway and mostly whines how PZ is unfair. And I hope he loses more than just one subscriber over this.
I hope C0nc0rdance drops it and will not make fool of him self further, though. His science videos I would not like to miss.
Improbable Joe
10 August 2012 at 12:00 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
jackthejoker,
TF admitted that he did it on his blog.
Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Human Being
10 August 2012 at 12:00 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Thomathy, see the “Are You Going to Skepticon?” thread for details.
/derail
jackthejoker
10 August 2012 at 12:02 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@94
That’s all well for people who are in the know with all of these particular people’s blogs and news references – can you hand me some links to those examinations?
We have a thread about this in the LeagueOfReason and it would sure be nifty to have the sources available on-hand.
Matt Penfold
10 August 2012 at 12:02 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
It seems you were too lazy to bother looking at this post by Jason Thibeault.
Now, you talked of apologies. Maybe you would like to offer one for your malicious accusations, along with an explanation as to why you are such a lazy fucking idiot.
jackthejoker
10 August 2012 at 12:03 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Joe,
Why are we having this conversation here?
We have a whole boatload of love and hugs on the thread.
-Hy
With All Due Respect,
Jack
Rev. BigDumbChimp
10 August 2012 at 12:04 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Jack the joker
Perhaps you, sir or madam, should be doing just a bit of research before you start making posts and exposing you jackassitude to the entire Internet?
He’s admitted it.
Dumbfuck
jackthejoker
10 August 2012 at 12:06 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@99
Forgive me for not reading the comment sections for things that should have been cited in the original article.
Speaking of which, was this article written before or after the article posted was? That’s still considered damned unprofessional.
Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle
10 August 2012 at 12:08 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
So, in other words, you’re a completely uninformed, clueless dipshit who’s making judgments of other people based on his completely uninformed cluelessness.
You’re utterly disgusting and dishonest. Piss off.
jackthejoker
10 August 2012 at 12:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
>Admits that I don’t listen or keep up with the likes of thunderf00t’s bullshit.
>States clearly that FreeThoughtBlogs isn’t regularly browsed through.
>People raving about not knowing that thunderf00t fessed up nor an unlinked article written after this initial post.
Please accept my most sincere apologies for my lack of psychic aptitude required to meet your criticisms – I know that it must be hard being retarded and incapable of having the literacy capabilities to understand that I explicitly stated that I don’t keep up with either one, so any knowledge of the ordeal outside of this article was alien to my own knowledge so I’ll forgive you just the same.
With All Due Respect,
Jack
Matt Penfold
10 August 2012 at 12:11 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
PX did link to it, in a previous post. It seems you were too lazy to read that as well.
As I have pointed out, PZ had already linked to the post by Jason.
Care to explain quite why you are so ignorant ?
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 12:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Wait, what? You need your hand held to find Thunderf00t’s blog?
Okay. Second link. (First is his YouTube channel.) There’s his side of the story.
If the LeagueOfReason needs any more help, say, tying their shoes or something, be sure to let us know.
Matt Penfold
10 August 2012 at 12:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh, and jackthejoker, you are supposed to read the comments before commenting yourself. It is rude not to do so.
Can you explain why you failed to read the comments, other than you are thick ?
Ace of Sevens
10 August 2012 at 12:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@104: So when you accused people of accepting/making charges with no evidence, what you meant is you weren’t familiar with the evidence because you couldn’t be arsed to learn anything about the background of the issue before accusing people of leaping to conclusions. Creationists do this, too. You can probably see the problem when they do.
Sili
10 August 2012 at 12:14 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Unfortunate the most egregious Internet narcissist knows all manners of personal files now.
Rev. BigDumbChimp
10 August 2012 at 12:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Jackthejoker
The jester hat fits you nicely.
jackthejoker
10 August 2012 at 12:20 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@104 Creationists also don’t cite any sources in their article titled “Evil Atheist science coverup” either.
I admitted I kept my nose out of this – but to see a direct article with no corroborating evidence within it as a total stranger to the little scandal should attest to how misleading and coercive it would come across as.
@Matt,
Your customs and traditions are alien to me – though I did have the courtesy of skimming them and took in the correct summary of them as being “ZOMG WHAT A DICKWAD.”
It doesn’t change the fact that it should have been cited in the article.
@106
Thank you so much for handing me a link to something I’d never intended to view in my entire life. I’ll review it.
With All Due Respect,
Jack
ChasCPeterson
10 August 2012 at 12:20 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
agreed. At least ‘unfortunate’.
Yes. But it may or may not be ‘ableist’ to point it out. again.
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
10 August 2012 at 12:21 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
As is your whole tirade without doing the proper fact-checking yourself, as it appears it was publicized by the perp himslef. Thus avoiding egg on your face and ego.
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 12:25 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Hey, you were complaining about not having all the facts. If basic research on the issue is beyond you, feel completely free to shut the fuck up on it.
Matt Penfold
10 August 2012 at 12:26 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Odd. I was just pointing out what is considered polite behaviour, namely keeping quiet until you know what you are talking about. It is not even specific to this blog, or even the Internet.
To be honest, that you admit you do not know how to be polite does not change my opinion of you.
There was no need. PZ had already linked to the post by Jason, so no point doing so again.
Are you really so ignorant as to how to behave like a civilised person ?
And you still have not apologised ? Was that an oversight, or are you also clueless about apologising when you make a mistake ? Given your lack of social skills, are you sure you should be using the ‘net without supervision ?
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 12:27 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
So you have no frame of reference here, jackthejoker. You’re like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know…
LykeX
10 August 2012 at 12:27 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You do realize that that link was to the evidence you were howling for, right? You asked for evidence and you got it. Why are you being snide?
jackthejoker
10 August 2012 at 12:28 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@114
That wasn’t against you – that was against anything with thunderf00t’s name slapped on it aside from the WDPLAC series.
With All Due Respect,
Jack
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 12:30 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Fuckhead opining.
Fuckhead backpeddling.
Go back to your Justice League, Aquaman.
Sili
10 August 2012 at 12:32 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I wonder how much respect Jack thinks we’re due.
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 12:33 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Hey, I find him as disgusting as the next guy. But seriously, you are totally allowed to have no opinion and no interest in this internet drama whatsoever. There are plenty of other posts on this blog, other FtBs, and everywhere else on the internet.
jackthejoker
10 August 2012 at 12:33 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Why apologize?
Reread my statement clearly, out loud, and then take 3 minutes to actually understand that if you didn’t fulfill the requirement of being a damned retard of taking claims without cited evidence, then you should have nothing to take away from it.
The article did need to have a citation though.
PZ Myers
10 August 2012 at 12:33 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Jack the joker: there is a summary post with all the details here. Links all over the place. I didn’t expect you to be psychic, but I did kinda expect that you would be, you know, able to look and have the brain power to understand. Sorry about that. Won’t make that mistake again.
Also, here’s the timeline of our discussion of tf00t in the backchannel. I won’t give you the details, because it’s confidential, but just the gist. Thunderf00t is being misleading.
We kicked tf00t of this network.
“Hooray! What an ass!”
Silence.
Silence.
Silence.
Silence.
Last week: we’re told by a third party that some of emails are being distributed.
“How? What? Talk to the admin, ask him to check the logs.”
Admin reports back. Tfoot’s email addrss is on the list!
“What? How? Ed, did you forget to remove him?” “No way, I got the confirmation email that he was out.”
Admin reports back: Tf00t registered himself back on 10 minutes after he was ejected.
“WHAT!?! REMOVE HIM. Shut him down immediately.”
Admin: Done. Leak fixed, too. And by the way, now Tf00t is hammering on the list server, trying to get in.
“What a motherfucking asshole.”
We get confirmation from a couple of sources, with quotes from our email, that tf00t is shopping it around.
Only after that does anyone go ballistic. “I want to do whatever it takes to make sure that he is essentially drummed out of this movement, never invited to speak anywhere again and is forever a pariah.”
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 12:34 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I dunno. I’m a terrible person, and I don’t give much of a fig for other people’s respect.
But I’m pretty trigger-happy this AM. I should probably get some other work done.
Rev. BigDumbChimp
10 August 2012 at 12:34 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Fucking aquaman
LykeX
10 August 2012 at 12:37 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Well, you’re in luck. PZ has gathered all the citations you could want in one handy spot. Knock yourself out.
Hopefully that means you’ll shut up now.
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 12:37 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Can we get a timestamp on this particular comment? Just the timestamp on that email?
jackthejoker
10 August 2012 at 12:39 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I can see a handful of people here failed the Comprehension portion of their Literature classes. People see something that seems like it could be critical with something they disagree with, and then hop on a trailer truck of taking offense to the statement than reading it for what it is in-full and intent.
With that, I’ll drop back into the position of observer – until I see something else worthy of responding pop back up in the League Of Reason that just happens to link to this oddly-aggressive sect of the intertubes.
With All Due Respect,
Jack
carlie
10 August 2012 at 12:40 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
What does it matter when this email was written? That’s a justifiable opinion based on the shit TF was spouting about other people in atheism, specifically women. And Ed has said he stands behind it and said worse, too.
Ace of Sevens
10 August 2012 at 12:41 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
To clarify, when you say he was “shopping it around” is it something specific or unknown e-mail contents?
silomowbray
10 August 2012 at 12:41 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Brownian @ 119
Hey now. Aquaman is overly maligned as it is. C’mon, the guy can summon fish. How cool is that?
jackthejoker
10 August 2012 at 12:41 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Thank you for the collection, PZ.
I’ve been a fan of your work – but I like to keep my neck out of unrelated melodrama as much as can be helped.
With All Due Respect,
Jack
Gregory Greenwood
10 August 2012 at 12:47 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
jackthejoker @ 104;
If you have not bothered to familiarise yourself with the events in question, perhaps you should refrain from commenting until you do so.
(Emphasis added)
Ableist slurs such as this are not tolerated here. Don’t do it.
No one here needs or desires your ‘forgiveness’.
There seems little point in signing off each of your posts with this when it is clear from their content that you don’t mean a word of it.
@ 111;
You admit that you have not followed this series of events, but then whine about a lack of links in the OP? It is not PZ’s responsibility to hold your hand. If your interest is genuine, look this stuff up yourself.
And when links to the evidence you have demanded are provided, you refuse to read them? How are we to interpret that, other than as clear evidence that you are not arguing in good faith?
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
10 August 2012 at 12:48 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You forgot your apology for not following the links and being superbly stupid by not doing so. Who gives a shit what you think, since you don’t think, and have no concept of polite behavior. Another concerned and mouthy idjit heard from.
PZ Myers
10 August 2012 at 12:49 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
The “pariah” email was just the other day, about the same time that we closed the loophole and kicked tf00t off the list. It was prompted by all of the shit he pulled and has now confessed to on his blog.
It was so close to the time that we shut him out of access, though, that there was some concern that maybe he had another way of getting onto the list. Our admin guy really is double- and triple-checking everything, and we’re concerned enough that we basically shut down that entire listserv, chucked it and all of its archives into the trash, and moved to a completely different software.
So, yeah, that tf00t asshole has done us some damage. I’m sure he’s pleased at that.
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 12:54 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Like Jesus could? I dunno. I never read superhero comics. I don’t really know who any of these characters are.*
I am aware of the Aquaman sux trope, however, and I do like to write for my audience. ;)
*That’s not in any way to be taken as some sort of “I didn’t read superhero comics because I was doing cool things” put down. I liked them whenever I had the opportunity to read them. I just never got into them.
Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Human Being
10 August 2012 at 12:55 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
“With All Due Respect” must be the new “God Bless You” or, for the New Age types, “Peace.”
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 12:56 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
So, as you said, it was in response to the knowledge that he was already snooping without authorisation.
Giliell, not to be confused with The Borg
10 August 2012 at 12:57 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Sadly; I’m not surprised.
And while the part of my brain that doesn’t do morals* can understand the hacking, how can you defend somebody doing it
*Don’t worry, it’s well under control
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 12:58 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I hate email/comment/forum sigs. They’re a waste of bandwidth, when there are billions of children with no bandwith at all.
jackthejoker
10 August 2012 at 12:59 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
With All Due Respect is an appropriate closing in any situation.
If you’re being sincere, it will come across as a compliment. If you’re being a dick, it will come across as a slap in the face. If you’re forming a parody, then it’s a laugh.
Besides, who ends posts with a proper signature anymore?
With All Due Respect,
Jack
Rev. BigDumbChimp
10 August 2012 at 1:01 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Ahhh yes
Amphiox
10 August 2012 at 1:02 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
The “Aquaman sucks” meme I think has its genesis in those crossover/combination comics, like Justice League, where most of the action taking place on dry land leaves Aquaman basically a spectator watching all the other heroes do cool stuff. Aquaman is generally awesome in his own comic series.
But really it is the fault of unimaginative writers not knowing what to do with Aquaman’s powers. Seriously, this planet is 70% covered with water, 95% plus of the diversity of life exists in the water. Every living land-based creature on this planet encloses within itself a small piece of the primordial sea, under the fancy names of “interstitial fluid” and “blood”. And Aquaman can control it all.
With only a minor application of creativity in the use of his powers, Aquaman could conquer the planet. Alone.
PZ Myers
10 August 2012 at 1:03 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yes. The general response to tf00t before these recent revelations was “fuck him, he’s an ass, let’s ignore him now”. Ed wanted nothing more to do with him, ever, and that’s about it.
When we found out he’d hacked in and had been monitoring everyone’s email for a month, then the fireworks started.
Seriously, l’affaire Thunderf00t ended on our side once the slimy goatfucker was kicked out. There was no talk of retribution, revenge, or pissing matches. We were done.
He was busily ranting from the sidelines, I know, but until we discovered he was so obsessed that he was hacking our mail, we didn’t care.
Josh, Official SpokesGay
10 August 2012 at 1:04 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
jack–what the fuck is wrong with you? When it was pointed out that TF had confessed the whole thing on his blog you should have said “whoops.” But you didn’t. You didn’t even retract your characterization of PZ being unethical.
Why?
Why?
What is wrong with you?
Sili
10 August 2012 at 1:07 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I guess he could open a very successful sushi restaurant in Utah.
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 1:08 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
So, context-dependent passive-aggressiveness.
That’s very clever of you.
Pteryxx
10 August 2012 at 1:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
PZ, re this:
It’s also possible that someone still on the list could pass emails on. I hope y’all in the backchannel are discussing the importance of keeping confidentiality as applies to *everyone*.
Improbable Joe
10 August 2012 at 1:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
jackthejoker is one of those “hyper-skeptical” types… when he’s claiming that rape victims are liars, or when people attack vloggers he likes. Not so much any other time.
I know him from elsewhere. He’s usually seemed like a nice guy, but we all know what happens when the straight white male privilege gets challenged.
ChasCPeterson
10 August 2012 at 1:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
shee-it. you need 2 quotations, a blinking motto, several animated smileys and an ASCII-art self-portrait to make a proper sig.
carlie
10 August 2012 at 1:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
So he’s a bloodbender?
Besides all of the obvious, this is yet another example of how much time and energy running a blog like this takes out of the day. I can’t imagine the productivity loss every ftblogger has dealt with over this as it’s been ramping up.
Sili
10 August 2012 at 1:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Only 153. Is Aquaman likewise limited?
Rev. BigDumbChimp
10 August 2012 at 1:14 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Goatfucker?!?!
I take offense to that Sir!
Sili
10 August 2012 at 1:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Mission accomplished.
Sili
10 August 2012 at 1:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
God bless you, Jack.
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 1:18 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Ooh, these should tide people over until I’ve found something more appropriate.
[Digs around in pile of CDs for AOL free trial]
————————————-
“Together on the sand
we walked hand and hand”
http://www.skunkworx.org/music.stuff/midi/m/moody.blues/YourWildestDreams.mid
Pteryxx
10 August 2012 at 1:20 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
hmm, demands for proof and timestamps? Presumption of bad faith? Now it’s come down to “allies of bitchez lie”.
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 1:21 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Aren’t they all.
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 1:23 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I asked for the timestamp. I wanted to affirm that the smoking gun Thunderf00t is waving around came after it was known that he was snooping. I see it may or may not be relevant.
ChasCPeterson
10 August 2012 at 1:30 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Wait, ‘about the same time’: before or after? I mean, he somehow had access to that e-mail too, no? Or did I miss something?
Pteryxx
10 August 2012 at 1:34 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Chas, see Ed’s post:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2012/08/10/thunderfoots-unethical-obsession/
pinkboi
10 August 2012 at 2:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Sounds like TF was sad you guys weren’t talking about him more. Like a little kid that pulls his own hair out to get attention…
logicpriest
10 August 2012 at 2:44 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@ibbica
Long time to respond (work and stuff) but it is less about gatekeeper than making the entire thing unattractive to MRAs, TFs, among others. An official gatekeeper makes it a cult ;) I just don’t want to call myself something associated with people like mouthfoot and “skeptics” who still push alt med or invent “evidence” about women being naturally so and so. Social and political movements are necessary and like PZ said a few weeks ago, a schism from these people is GOOD so we can start off on the right foot.
logicpriest
10 August 2012 at 2:45 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh ya, and so people don’t mistake “freethought” for “say anything first amendment first amendment gargle gargle.”
Weed Monkey
10 August 2012 at 3:02 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
So. How safe are we?
Has Phil Mason had access to our email addresses?
Matt Penfold
10 August 2012 at 3:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Not when it is not meant, and you clearly do not mean it. If you did, you would have.
1. Not made your first post, since you would have found the information your self.
2. Once you had made it, and realised what an idiot you had been, you would have accepted you fucked up and apologised.
3. You would not continue making posts defending your stupidity and laziness.
So, it seems even here you cannot be honest and decent.
hyperdeath
10 August 2012 at 3:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Josh, Official SpokesGay:
Low emotional intelligence. He genuinely believes that obsessively and aggressively refusing to acknowledge a mistake looks better than a quick mea culpa. Most people grow out of the habit during adolescence.
Matt Penfold
10 August 2012 at 3:16 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Rogiriverstone, who up thread took PZ to task for revealing Thundefoot’s real name that is common knowledge to anyone with an inclination to Google it, has posted a YouTube video reply.
She is trying to portray herself as some kind of activist, calling herself “GenderQueer Atheist”. Of course, that could be an accurate description, but tells us nothing about her stance on the rights of women, gays, atheists etc. If we have learnt anything over the last twelve months it is that being atheist, female or queer (or any combination there of) does not make you a good person.
Link to the video:
Pteryxx
10 August 2012 at 3:17 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Most likely he had access to the info of everyone who commented on his blog, as an admin.
Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Human Being
10 August 2012 at 3:27 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Matt, I believe Rogi prefers gender-neutral pronouns.
That said… I watched just over a minute of their video. It’s rather interesting to me that someone with disabilities, and someone to whom I was accused of being “ableist” because I criticized the intelligence of their previous comments, would simply post screenshots of their comments, with “radio silence,” rather than read them aloud. I’m sighted, but I’m extremely astigmatic, and I had to do a bit of squinting. Wouldn’t Rogi want their followers who are blind or have even more compromised vision than I do to know what was said in the comments?
screechymonkey
10 August 2012 at 3:31 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
PZ @135: “chucked it and all of its archives into the trash”
I hope an admin or someone else is maintaining an (off-line) archive. If there does end up being legal action over this, you don’t want to be accused of destroying evidence. But more importantly, you want to be able to defend yourselves if necessary from fraudulent or out-of-context quotes.
thematrix
10 August 2012 at 3:35 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I personally have no problem with my info being out there, but I can understand the scope of the issue, especially for people in the US.
As stated before, keep the information, record anything and everything you can, if he ever leaks personal info, slam him, hard and viciously, to the full extent of the law. Also bring it up with his employer, ethics is still an important thing in the science community.
As for the events surrounding TF. I unsubscribed from him quite some time ago, shortly after his video’s changed from having a focus on actual science, to his xenophobic and other diatribes, I did watch some video’s from him when I heard about some controversy he stirred up, but only if it had some people I know on YT sufficiently outraged.
But the best thing anyone and everyone can do right now is, unsub him and withstand any and all temptation of watching anything he puts out on YT.
He has turned into the classic YT attention whore, a troll of sorts, don’t give him the satisfaction of being mentioned.
Weed Monkey
10 August 2012 at 3:37 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Pteryxx,
Yeah, that’s quite certain. But how about the rest of us, who never wrote anything on Thunderfucker’s?
PZ? Has the fucker had access to our ‘nyms and email addresses?
Matt Penfold
10 August 2012 at 4:03 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Fine.
Well, they do not seem very intelligent, and clearly have a problem with an over-inflated sense of their own importance. The fact they had to do a video blog tells us that. Why not just write down what you have to say, and save everyone who has to read the tripe a lot of time compared to listening to it.
They are just dishonest scum as far as I am concerned. Not in the Thundefoot class, but pretty unpleasant and the sort of person atheism/scepticism could well rid off.
Matt Penfold
10 August 2012 at 4:07 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Mind, given it thinks calling me white is a insult, I am not to worried if I have offended the lying scumbag.
Pteryxx
10 August 2012 at 4:21 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Weed Monkey: I don’t think so, because the admins have no access to *each other’s* blogs. They have to purposely share info such as IPs of known trolls, for instance. See also Jason Thibeault’s post about exactly what Tfoot had access to in the channel.
Gaebolga
10 August 2012 at 4:40 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Okay, not to pile on or anything, but this kind of shit really pisses me off.
No, Jack, “a handful of people here” didn’t “[fail] the Comprehension portion of their Literature classes”; you suck at writing in English. I read your posts prior to the one quoted above, and I can assure you that everyone who took offense at your posts did so based on the messages they conveyed.
The fact that those messages were perhaps not what you intended to convey isn’t their problem.
It’s yours.
I know you’ll most likely dismiss me as some sort of “retard” for not being able to psychically divine your true intent from the steaming pile of entrails you posted, but you really shouldn’t do that if you actually value being able to communicate with people in writing. I spent more than 10 years as a professional editor before I went to grad school and got a Master’s in English Education, and I’ve been teaching basic composition courses at the local community college for 7+ years now.
As you can imagine, I’ve seen a lot of really, really crappy writing. Yours is merely bad.
But the fact that you assume the fault lies with your readers rather than yourself is, to be frank, total bullshit.
Here; allow me to provide you with an example by editing your post to make it actually readable. I’ll strike your errors as necessary and mark my changes in bold:
*[Note: yes, I know you're not supposed to end a phrase with a preposition, but in an informal medium like an online comment, it's not a big deal; personally, I think that since "with which they agree" is an inherently passive construction, it's a least as egregious an error as the one it's supposed to fix. - Ed.]
**[Note: the phrase "or what it is in-full and intent" is atrociously bad; I'm rewriting it to reflect what I honestly think you're trying to say. If I've misrepresented your point in my rewrite, I sincerely apologize. But the fact that I can't actually be sure what you meant is exactly what I'm talking about. - Ed.]
***[Note: I'm assuming the "League Of Reason" is a website that hosts comment threads. If this isn't the case, insert whatever noun would be appropriate. - Ed.]
****[Note: I recognize that "sect" could be - and in fact probably is - an attempt at humor, but since the rest of your comment had such serious grammatical errors, I can't just give you the benefit of the doubt. That's one of the downsides to crappy writing; it gets in the way of your wit. - Ed.]
Ms. Daisy Cutter, Vile Human Being
10 August 2012 at 4:49 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Matt, I have no liking at all for Rogi, but calling them “it” is shitty. You’re better than that.
coyotenose
10 August 2012 at 4:56 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
There’s Just No Cure For The Thunderfoot Blues
Matt Penfold
10 August 2012 at 5:01 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Well she has not bothered to tell me what she would like me to use.
Matt Penfold
10 August 2012 at 5:20 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You are right, I should not have done that, and I apologise.
hotshoe
10 August 2012 at 5:21 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Gaebolga –
Well done, well done!
Shame your work will be wasted on that dingleberry Jack, but still, fine work.
David Marjanović
10 August 2012 at 6:32 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
What is this crap about “closing”? We can see where your comment ends. There’s even a horizontal line under it. You don’t need to add an additional marker.
(Louis at least keeps it short, and Glen Davidson doesn’t comment often.)
GAAAH! That page was going to eat all my bandwidth!!!
Hand in hand. There are two English words pronounced [n], and they mean very different things!
Nah. In English, people have been doing that since the 13th century or so. English isn’t Latin (or German or French).
Brownian
10 August 2012 at 6:48 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
David, I’m a bit hurt. You know me better than that.
Improbable Joe
10 August 2012 at 7:49 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
League of Reason is a perfectly lovely website that really really really shouldn’t get dragged into this. Really. We’re disciplining our village’s idiot, and he hopefully won’t bother you any more.
bryanelliott
10 August 2012 at 8:46 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
> he has absolutely no qualms about breaking legally binding confidentiality of an LLC
Seems to me that if that’s what he did, you should have gotten a lawyer, not poisoned your case by making a fuss on your blog.
Ing: Praise The Lord And Pass the Ammunition
10 August 2012 at 11:01 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Ah yes we all know the famous Douche vs Boingboing supreme court case that ruled that if you mention something on a blog it is not admissible in court
Naked Bunny with a Whip
11 August 2012 at 12:06 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’ll bet all those convicted criminals who didn’t think to get the case thrown out because their victims talked to a reporter are kicking themselves.
sexyjedi
11 August 2012 at 6:20 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
For people’s enjoyment, etc, I made a Scumbag Thunderf00t meme image. Have at it! See who can make the best captions! I certainly wasn’t very creative.
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3qfnmk/
eldritchwarlord
11 August 2012 at 11:51 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I’m not defending Thunderf00t’s methods in his quest for revenge but I think his grievance is legitimate.
This is after all Free Thought Blogs. Rather than banning him for saying things you don’t agree with why not write about why you think he’s wrong? Debate is preferable to censorship correct?
Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls
11 August 2012 at 11:56 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
What the fuck? They argued with him, then fired his ass when TF wouldn’t act like you want the rest of FtB to act. Boy, you are one hypocrite. And being a private group, not a government, censorship doesn’t enter into it. Besides, his posts are still there. As will be your bit of idiocy above. Why did you even bother posting, when it is obvious you haven’t followed the controversy?
ChasCPeterson
11 August 2012 at 12:05 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Jesus fuck no.
No: no, it is not.
It is Freethought Blogs.
OK?
So no, not a legitimate grievance.
ffs
'Tis Himself
11 August 2012 at 12:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
TF wasn’t banned. He can comment on FtB blogs all he wants. He was fired as a blogger on FtB,
Caine
11 August 2012 at 12:13 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
eldritchwarlord:
No, it isn’t. This is Freethought Blogs. If you don’t know what freethought is or means, perhaps you could avail yourself of this wonderful thing called the internet. I hear you can actually learn things and prevent appearing incredibly stupid.
Oh FFS, don’t you TF defenders ever bother with basic fucking fact checking? Ever? TF was not banned. His blog still stands, and he’s free to comment anywhere he fucking likes on FTB. TF was fired. Or kicked off FTB, how ever you want to phrase it. By the way, your density, a lot of people on FTB wrote multiple posts about why they thought he was wrong. Guess what? All TF did was double down on the wrong and refuse to answer personal communications from FTB bloggers.
Perhaps if you defenders were better at reading, we could actually get somewhere. Drop the idiottube for a bit, try to sharpen up that attention span and those thinking skills.
LykeX
11 August 2012 at 12:20 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
1) PZ and other DID write about why he was wrong. At length. His response was to double down on idiocy.
2) Thunderf00t hasn’t been censored. He has been refused the privilege of being a part of this blogging network. He is still perfectly free to say what’s on his mind and even comment here.
Do you think Thunderf00t has some kind of right to be a featured blogger here? Am I being censored because PZ hasn’t offered me my own blog?
Thunderf00t was asked to join, it became clear that he didn’t fit in, he was asked to leave. That’s all. If you think that amounts to censorship, you need to get yourself a dictionary.
3) At some point, a person’s opinions differ so greatly from the parent organization that he can no longer be a part of it. That’s what happened with Thunderf00t.
He disagreed on some pretty basic positions. He vigorously criticized the network itself. He disrupted the environment. He did so almost immediately after joining, meaning he hadn’t had time to build up a lot of good will.
When the first thing you do is to cause problems, before ever showing yourself to add any value to the group, don’t expect people to keep you around.
4) Disagreement isn’t going to get you banned around here. There’s plenty of disagreement going on, both in the comment threads and between the featured bloggers.
What will get you kicked out is being disruptive and non-constructive in your disagreement. If Thunderf00t had made his case more reasonably and hadn’t so thoroughly made an ass of himself, he might still be around.
Brownian
11 August 2012 at 12:29 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
You don’t have a blog on FtB. I don’t have a blog on FtB. Thunderf00t doesn’t have a blog on FtB.
Are we all being censored?
JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness
11 August 2012 at 12:43 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Holy shit! I’m so sorry and scared for those people fearing about their information being released. I know that fear well. It sucks so much. I know what TF did was immoral and illegal, I just hope you could prosecute him for this. If that is the intent of the bloggers here at FtB. I understand there is often reasons for not going through with legal action.
Fuck Thunderdouche.
I really have nothing to add, it’s just the similarities in the
mentality regarding consent and this whole complain about TF getting kicked out is striking and disturbing to me.
“The woman said yes! She wanted it too. She can’t take it back.”
“They invited him in! They liked him! They can’t change and take it back!”
Don’t you get how much it hurts their feefees to ever be denied anything?
Way to not care about boundaries and respecting people, assholes! I know who the fuck to avoid and not going anywhere around these douches. (There have been shown plenty of reasons and all that, I just haven’t seen someone point out this similarity yet.)
Ing: The World is Dying
11 August 2012 at 12:53 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
The Tf defenders are making the “how can you claim to be pro tolerance yet intollerant of racism!?” Defense.
If you’re for free thought you have to entertain the idea that so called free thought is bullshit (imho it is)
jutland
11 August 2012 at 10:31 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
PZ, I would like avoid venting about TF’s behavior and ask a question about how this is to be dealt with.
Is FTB going to take action over this episode? TF has certainly broken EU law on accessing information, and iirc broken US laws too, so it would be reasonable to at least consider such an action if only to serve as a deterrent to any other person who might consider such actions.
Accessing this sort of information, even without distributing it or reading it is punishable by a jail term in the EU at least under the Data Protection Act. Attempting to use it to gain leverage against someone would likely see a lengthy stretch behind bars. Obviously the likely tactic of somebody that has accessed such information is to pass it to third parties to release if they themselves are confronted by the authorities, but the police are usually aware of such tactics and deal with the others as accessories at the same time they deal with the original offender in order to stop this tactic working – I have seen this process in action against somebody adopting such a tactic against a company I worked for.
Please do not let him get away with this appalling behavior.
cityzenjane
12 August 2012 at 1:34 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
“League of Reason is a perfectly lovely website that really really really shouldn’t get dragged into this. Really. We’re disciplining our village’s idiot, and he hopefully won’t bother you any more.”
Sorry….but this reminds me of the Catholics and the pedo scandal…. Internal ‘discipline’ really doesn’t cut it….not that anything will happen…at least AndromedasWake made his dismay quite public…and permanently available…
People like TF00t are training a whole generation of online aggro douchebags. His behaviour is not acceptable….and the League and others who care about reason/skepticism/ethics…ought to make it as plain as Matt Dillahunty has….
cityzenjane
12 August 2012 at 1:44 am (UTC -5) Link to this comment
@eldritchwarlord
Go watch sofiarune’s video on the definition of Freethought as a tradition and freedom of speech…. it’s a common confusion.
Also free speech as a right is related to government oppression…not public shunning and criticism for being a objectively dishonest – aggressive, lying creep. Flying Spagetti Monster WEPT – has education failed THIS badly?
And to all the folks piping up based only on what TFoot has said about all this…. go wash the egg off your faces….then go do your damned homework before you attack people.
If you had any shame you’d be totally embarrassed. IF.
alecrezz
12 August 2012 at 11:09 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Yep. Thunderf00t is a detestable, underhanded cad for “hacking” into an email server he didn’t have permission to access, but PZ is a hero for “hacking” into a phone conference with a code he didn’t have permission to use. Makes perfect sense.
Ing: The World is Dying
12 August 2012 at 11:12 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
Oh is that the meme Thundy is spreading around now? Nice.
Because you know a press conference is totally private info
PZ Myers
12 August 2012 at 11:18 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
These stories would be comparable IFF tf00t hacked onto our list server, quickly sent us a message mocking our security and laughing at how stupid we were, and then left us alone after we closed the leak.
Dumbass.
shadow
14 August 2012 at 2:08 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
He could always shill for Chick-fil-a?
ChasCPeterson
14 August 2012 at 2:10 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
oy
Rev. BigDumbChimp
14 August 2012 at 2:15 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment
I don’t have a TV channel.
Being censored sucks.
I have so much to say.